JURI Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND HUMAN RIGHTS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA JUSTICE ET DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, May 14, 1998

• 0916

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Shaughnessy Cohen (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.)): Today we have with us from the Ministry of the Attorney General for British Columbia, Susanne Dahlin, who is Director of the Community Justice Branch, Victims Services Division. Ms. Dahlin, I want to welcome you and thank you for coming. You're the first of the provincial people that we've invited to come.

I just want to reassure you that none of us are, so far as I know, trying to get into the provincial jurisdiction. I think as you know what we're trying to do is to get a sense of what services are available across the country and also to work in I hope a sort of complementary fashion to what provincial officials are doing with our federal justice officials. This is a project that we've long looked forward to completing and we're very glad to have you here to give us some idea of what's on the ground in B.C.

I just warn you that I'm going to have to leave for a few minutes and go to see my doctor. There's probably going to be some activity in terms of members coming in and out but if you've appeared in front of legislative committees before, you know that certainly doesn't reflect on what you're saying or on our level of interest. Go ahead.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin (Director, Community Justice Branch, Victims Services Division): Thank you. I had brought packages of information and unfortunately they haven't been translated. We didn't have the opportunity to do that.

The Chair: Okay, we'll get that done.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Do you have copies of those materials now?

The Chair: No, we have a rule on this committee that unless everyone consents we don't distribute it unless it's in both languages, but we will be attentive.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Okay, what I was going to do is in my package of information is basically my background brief and some of the materials like copies of our legislation and that kind of thing so maybe I will hold them up and point to them variously throughout my presentation. In terms of the background note I just wanted to let you know that what I am going to try and do is basically cover how services are delivered in the province of B.C.

I should first of all advise you that the government of B.C. is committed to assisting victims and their families who are dealing with the physical, emotional and financial impact of crime in their life. B.C. is a recognized leader not only in responding to the needs and concerns of victims of crime but also in ensuring that victims have an active role in the justice system. We feel we have the most comprehensive and best funded victims services network in Canada. I'll go on to outline a little bit of that.

In terms of the historical perspective, services for victims were originally advanced through the efforts of individuals, primarily women, who co-ordinated volunteer groups to assist victims with the impact and consequences of the offence and with their involvement in the justice system. These groups historically operated with little or no funding or government support for decades before any significant funding was available.

Government now provides support and funding for various victims initiatives. I should say that in the province of B.C. not only do we provide funding for victims initiatives, but also we provide training for all our victims services. We provide both basic and core training and we provide advanced training.

At this point in our history we are actually looking at the professionalization of victims services to the extent that we're looking at developing standards of service delivery in terms of the people who provide these services and our standards. We'll be looking at not only the educational component but also recognizing people who have done this work for a number of years and pioneered their efforts in this area. We will be trying to balance those two pieces.

• 0920

In the province of B.C. we have what we call our Victims of Crime Act which was proclaimed in 1996. The act acknowledges victims rights to a justice system which is more balanced in its treatment of their concerns and introduces measures to ensure the justice system is more accessible and understandable.

B.C.'s victims legislation is one of the few to recognize not only the rights of victims but also the rights of immediate family members or others who share a close relationship with the victim and who have suffered significant emotional trauma as a result of an offence. For family members who have suffered the loss of a loved one or who have seen the devastating effects of violent crimes, this formal recognition that victimization can impact the entire family was a step forward as far as we were concerned.

B.C.'s victims legislation is also unique in taking steps to ensure that victims' rights to privacy are given due consideration. Under our new legislation, victims are entitled to independent legal representation funded by our ministry to ensure that they receive legal advice and representation independent from Crown counsel in response to an application for disclosure of personal records and information.

The province has also recognized the need to support victims in their attempts to have the courts recognize the impact the offence has had upon their lives. Under our Victims of Crime Act Crown counsel must ensure that the victim is given a reasonable opportunity to complete a victim impact statement or provide victim impact information to be presented to the court before sentencing takes place.

Additional rights under our Victims of Crime Act indicate that victims must be treated with courtesy and respect. They are given the right to information regarding the justice system, victim services, criminal injuries compensation, freedom of information and protection of privacy, and the Victims of Crime Act. When I say they have the right to that information, immediately when they come in contact with police services they are given a pamphlet that advises them of what their rights are.

We feel we have to make them aware of what the services are out there immediately. Once they are given the knowledge and awareness of what they have the right to request, then they may upon request get information on the investigation, prosecution, sentencing and release of an offender.

The act also provides for a victim fine surcharge on provincial fines. Our federal surcharge moneys are directed to a provincial surcharge account. Revenues into that account will target future victim initiatives.

Our surcharge has only been in place for half a fiscal year so we haven't been able to expend much money out of the surcharge at this point in time. I should tell you the money that goes into that surcharge account, which is both provincial and federal funds, will go to address the goals as defined in our legislation.

I should say that one of the other pieces of our legislation that is quite distinct is that we have enunciated goals in our legislation. We will be working towards meeting those goals as we've put in the legislation. We have put in some future direction in our legislation.

Our legislation provides a legislative base for our programs, but the legislation would only be a piece of paper, although it's a fairly strong piece of paper in our province because it does provide basic rights. What we have is an extensive network of victim assistance programs across the province. B.C. provides funding for a large network of over 150 victim assistance programs across the province.

We are quite different from the rest of the jurisdictions. Our programs operate through police detachments, Crown counsel offices and various community agencies. Our budget for our contracted services is over $7.2 million. This does not include the funding for victim witness services in the Crown offices or other victim initiatives. That's only the funding for our contracted services.

In terms of our contracted services, we start by offering what we call our victims information line. This is a toll-free line that any victim can phone across the province. What that line will do is it will give the victim access to information and referral to services and programs available to them in their community.

The next service we have is what we call our police base victim assistance programs. These programs are usually located within police departments or detachments, and they provide services to all victims of crime. Many of them also provide crisis intervention. They are basically the first line of support that victims get and they are the most numerous in our province.

• 0925

We then have what we call a second level of victim services. Those are called our specialized victim assistance programs. These are community based programs that are designed to assist victims of violence against women in relationships, adult sexual assault, child sexual abuse, adult survivors of child sexual abuse, and stalking. B.C. is also one of the only provinces to establish specialized programs to address the needs of male survivors.

We also have further specialized programs that address the needs of people from diverse cultures within the province, including aboriginal and multicultural victim assistance programs.

The other specialized services that we have are services that are available through sexual assault or women assault centres. These services provide immediate crisis response to victims of sexual assault or other violent offences on a 24-hour basis and offer support to victims during medical and police procedures.

Another feature of these particular services is that if a victim at this point in time does not want to report a recent sexual assault to police, the centre can, with the consent of the victim, provide information regarding the attack to police while protecting the privacy of the victim. It is hoped then that when the police have an awareness of an offender out there they can gather the appropriate evidence and if another victim comes forward, the two cases can be put together and maybe the victim will choose to come forward.

Our next and final level of victim services is what we call our Crown victim witness services. These services operate out of approximately 45 Crown counsel offices throughout the province. They are under the direction of the local prosecutors. They are designed to assist in meeting the informational needs of victims in cases involving a fatality or serious physical or emotional trauma. They emphasize court preparation.

All our victim services basically provide information regarding the justice system, legislation, services available, as well as current and timely information regarding the status of their case. They provide referrals to appropriate community agencies. They help with victim impact statements. As I mentioned, some of them provide special counselling for both male and female victims of sexual assault, wife assault, historic abuse, and specialized counselling for sexually abused children and children who witness violence or abuse. They provide emotional support, court orientation and accompaniment, practical assistance such as transportation to appointments and assisting in arrangements for safe housing, co-ordination at the local level of services to respond to violence against women in relationships, and assistance with criminal injuries compensation applications.

All of our programs have base funding. A number of them do operate with volunteers on an additional basis, but in all of the programs we operate the co-ordinators are paid by the government under contract.

Not only do victims and their families require information and emotional support, they also require financial assistance to deal with the aftermath of crime. The province proclaimed the Criminal Injuries Compensation Act in 1972. Over the years the act has been amended to expand eligibility and increase the number of schedule offences for which victims can receive compensation.

B.C. is one of the few provinces to continue to provide compensation for pain and suffering. We are the only province which extends benefits to immediate family members and dependants of deceased victims for income support, counselling and expenses.

B.C. has one of the most generous compensation programs. In 1997 the province awarded almost $20 million in compensation to victims and their families.

That is our basic level of victim initiatives and victim support. When I talked to you about victims of crimes, the victims of crime services address all levels and all types of victims within our province and they provide for a basic level delivery of service. In addition to that, we, by policy, provide more services and more proactive notification of particular victims.

B.C. has identified violence against women and children as a government priority. We require a multifaceted approach in working towards the development of ministry policies to deal with issues of violence against women in relationships, sexual assault, and child abuse and neglect.

With respect to violence against women in relationships, we treat this as a serious criminal offence. Stopping this violence is a key priority of the government.

• 0930

In 1983 the Ministry of the Attorney General developed its first comprehensive justice policy to address violence against women and children. We have developed additional initiatives to further enhance the protection of women of the province.

We have what we call a protection order registry. This registry is a database that contains information on all protection orders that are issued in the province of B.C. That includes section 810 peace bonds, probation bail orders as well as civil restraining orders.

This registry enables the police and firearms officers to access information regarding registered protection orders on a 24-hour, seven days a week basis through a dedicated 1-800 line. This allows police if they are called into a domestic dispute to find out whether or not an order is recent and therefore enforceable.

Recent enhancements to our protection order registry now provide victims with access to the 1-800 number 24 hours a day, seven days a week to obtain information regarding their protection order. We have as recently as in the last few weeks implemented a new notification process to ensure that victims are notified before an offender who is the subject of a protection order but is in either provincial or federal jurisdiction is released.

We have a number of other initiatives under our violence against women in relationships policy initiative. We offer cell phones to women who are particularly at a high risk of violence. We have a case law database for Crown counsel and a comprehensive tracking system for all our violence against women in relationships files.

The other things we do in this area which we do in all our advance policy areas is we provide what we call co-ordinated and integrated training to all our justice system personnel. We provide a core curriculum on violence against women in relationships and the dynamics of abuse in this area. We do it in the area of sexual assault of adults and we also do it in the area of child abuse and neglect.

The other initiative we have undertaken with respect to violence against women in relationships is that we fund what we call wife assault co-ordinators around the province. What these people do is they try to bring together in a co-ordinated way justice system personnel with community personnel to look at the gaps in service delivery if any victim is falling through that particular gap and try and close that gap to make sure the service is delivered and the woman is safe.

The final piece that we do under our correctionals branch is we fund assaultive men's treatment programs. The primary person that the program has to identify is the woman and her safety in that situation, but to look at providing some form of treatment to assaultive men.

The other two initiatives we are looking at in the policy respect I've already talked about. There is our sexual assault initiative. This is an across ministry policy we are developing to ensure a co-ordinated and effective response to victims of sexual assault. Those are adult victims of sexual assault and also historical victims. For those people who were assaulted as children, this policy will address them as well.

We're looking at developing an interministry policy and it should be coming out within the next couple of months. This as I said will be accompanied by interdisciplinary training across our justice system components, looking at the co-ordination of justice personnel and how to effectively respond to this particular crime.

We're developing similar policy with respect to child abuse and neglect. We work very closely with the Ministry of Children and Families, which has directed child abuse initiatives, to make sure that there's a co-ordinated response.

We've looked at a handbook across ministry to look on action of child abuse and neglect. We're looking at developing and we've put together guidelines for a child friendly court facility design for both children and other vulnerable people. And specifically, we've looked at guidelines with respect to aboriginal child victim witnesses.

We work closely with our other ministry partner, the Ministry of Women's Equality which funds transition houses and safe houses in our community and also addresses the issues of children who witness violence.

The other piece that we do in supporting victims, B.C. has taken steps to ensure victims have better access to information regarding the custodial status of an offender and that they have a forum for addressing concerns regarding release conditions.

• 0935

With respect to that, we have victim notifiers within all our provincial institutions who provide notification to victims on request under our legislation of when an offender may be released. They also provide proactive notification to those victims who have been involved with a domestic dispute with the particular offender.

One of the things with respect to our B.C. parole board is they provide victims the opportunity to make oral presentations at board hearings. We have gone beyond the bounds of written hearings. At the B.C. parole board level victims have the opportunity to make oral presentations.

B.C. continues to focus all our court and correctional resources on high risk violent offenders. We have also recognized the need to the increased use of community based alternatives for low risk offenders. While we have targeted special initiatives for high risk offenders such as sexual assaults, assaults within family relationships, hate propaganda crimes etc., we're looking at dealing with lower risk offenders in an alternative justice approach.

B.C. has adopted and it is moving towards developing restorative justice models around the province. One of the bases of our involvement with the restorative justice approach is we want to ensure that victims are actively involved in this process and that their concerns and needs are addressed.

My branch, the Victims Services Branch, is very involved in the restorative justice approach to ensure that victims have their place in that process. We find that when victims are involved in that process, the process has more meaning and understanding for them. This is at the lower end of the criminal record level.

Those are all the initiatives that B.C. is undergoing. There is more contained in our things and I've just tried to highlight and cover more of those. I understand that people may want to ask me specific questions.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

I just wanted to clarify something. Did you say you had programs for assaultive men or assaulted men?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Both.

The Chair: Both, okay.

Ms. Suzanne Dahlin: We have programs for what are called our assaultive men's treatment programs. Those are connected to violence against women and relationships. Men usually under a bail order would be referred to that kind of program. We also have some programs, our specialized programs, that have dealt with men who have been sexually abused as children.

The Chair: Okay, thanks. Mr. Cadman, 10 minutes.

Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be relatively brief here as I am quite familiar with the B.C. victims rights legislation.

I must at this point acknowledge that the B.C. government and the Attorney General have been very co-operative with victims groups because victims were included in this 1996 act. There was a lot of consultation during that process.

I'll toot my own horn here. That pamphlet was my idea, the pamphlet that the police give out. I can remember the meeting we were sitting at. The representative from the ministry asked how we could get this information to the victims. I said have the police hand them out a card or a pamphlet, so that's where that one came from.

I just have a couple of questions. As far as teeth in the legislation, the Victims of Crime Act, if victims feel that their rights haven't been respected, what kind of recourse do they have? This is my first question so I'll leave you with that one.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Ultimately they have the right to go to the office of the ombudsman. The ultimate authority is that they can go to our provincial ombudsman and complain about that. Obviously, if they phoned my division or the branch that had to deal with their specific concerns we would ask them to walk through with that particular branch but ultimately they can go to the office of the ombudsman.

Mr. Chuck Cadman: Okay, for a second question, I'm sure you're aware that the minister has floated an idea about a national victims of crime office. I just wonder if you have any particular ideas or thoughts on that issue as to what the role of that office may be, whether there actually is a need for it, where there would be conflict with the province, just some thoughts and opinions.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I could see a national office as having a complementary role to the provinces. In fact, I think that the directors of victims services across the country have recently had a couple of meetings.

One of the things that I think is really advantageous for us is that a national office would bring us together and we could share resources, maybe do some background research and share best practices and that kind of thing. I think it's helpful with respect to that.

• 0940

In terms of having any teeth, in terms of following through, most of the administration of these programs is under provincial jurisdiction. If there was a national office,I would see that as providing a co-ordinating role, best practices, research, that kind of thing. I wouldn't want to see a lot of federal money put into that area. If there was going to be federal money I'd like to see it in direct services to victims, frankly.

Mr. Chuck Cadman: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to share my time with Mr. Forseth.

The Chair: Sure. Mr. Forseth.

Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Ref.): Susanne, welcome. It's nice to see you. We used to work together in the community office in British Columbia.

The Chair: Here to tell the tale. We'll be talking to you after. Confidentially. Small press conference.

Mr. Paul Forseth: You mentioned about $7.2 million being spent in specific contracts. Do you have any estimate as to how much the provincial government is spending in a more global area? You said it didn't include the Crown services and all the other stuff. A ballpark figure in general about providing provincial services to victims. Do you have a larger number of resources that are being spent in that area?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: How much additional is spent on the rest of the services?

Mr. Paul Forseth: Yes.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I haven't provided any administration. I would say that probably services through the Crown office are about $2.5 million. Also then we would have to deal with the administrative overhead which is my office and the Crown office, which isn't a lot. We also provide extra money for the violence against women and children initiatives.

Mr. Paul Forseth: So this is all those contracts for those programs you talked about, the programs for men and—

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: That didn't include the programs for men.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Right. So have you ever looked at just a global figure as to how much the province is providing to all of the programs, direct and indirect, in contracts for victims?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: No I don't have that figure off my head.

Mr. Paul Forseth: In any event what you are describing today is a considerable amount of resources going towards victims.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Right. And that $7.2 million didn't include the $20 million for criminal injuries either.

Mr. Paul Forseth: That's right. You mentioned this peculiar animal called a protection order. Could you just describe a little bit what that is, or is that a new name for traditionally what we've known as a restraining order?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: It's a restraining order, but the reason we broadened it to advise it's a protection order because it includes probation orders, bail orders, section 810 peace bonds, civil restraining orders. Anything that has a protective clause in it goes into our protection order registry.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Okay, so it's the registry rather than a new legal animal called a protection order.

You mentioned the interesting one of providing cell phones for particular individuals who are in difficult circumstances. How many cell phones do you have out there for that particular purpose?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: One of the pieces of the program is we're not supposed to tell you how many cell phones are out there. We want every offender to think that every victim has a cell phone and she's at the other end of a cell phone. So we keep that information confidential.

We're just piloting that program and we will be expanding it within the next couple of months. It's attached to a special security system that's in the victim's home called a DVERS system. That's the first line. Then once we have that security system in the home we provide the victim with a cell phone. But they go through screening in terms of whether or not they get those cell phones.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Right. Has there been any exploratory work on the electronic monitoring? I know British Columbia's done that for offenders for quite some time. You might have the reverse or something through that system.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: We did a little bit of investigation in that area but there are a number of charter issues and those other kinds of issues involved with that so we haven't pursued that much further.

Mr. Paul Forseth: One final question around the B.C. board of parole. You talked about victims being able to make oral presentations. Is this with offenders present? And are victims able to challenge perhaps some of the information that an offender gives in their presentation?

Often I've heard in complaints from victims that if they had only known what the offender was saying about his relationship with these people, what his community reputation was, that there's not just an oral victim impact statement, but that they're actually able to challenge and call into account some of what the offender is putting forward as a package. He says he has a job with Mr. Smith in the garage. Well, the victims know that the garage actually went out of business last month. That kind of thing.

Can you describe a little more about the dynamics of victims making oral presentations to the board of parole?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: There is the opportunity for the victim to ask questions of the offender and actually to respond to that. Obviously it's in a fairly tightly controlled kind of circumstance because they don't want to revisit the offence, and they don't want to enter into information that hasn't been presented there. But the victim is there and does have the opportunity to hear what the offender has to say and has the opportunity to ask questions and respond to that.

• 0945

Mr. Paul Forseth: How does that happen? In order for victims to be there, there's got to be a comprehensive system of notification and arranging so that victims can be present.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Under our victims of crime legislation, as I said, if a victim wishes to be notified of any process through the justice system that impacts them, then they indicate that to us in writing. We get that information at the front end of the system and we pass it all the way down through the system so that it remains on their file as it goes throughout. They then are contacted and advised that the offender will be coming before a parole board hearing and do they wish to attend. They then are provided with appropriate support.

Not only do they have some training within the provincial parole system to provide that, but our victim assistance services as well are trained to provide them with support to attend the hearing. Obviously we don't want the victim to be revictimized by the process. It's a new process and we are watching it very carefully at this point.

Mr. Paul Forseth: If the victim lives in Campbell River and the parole board hearing is coming out of a Prince George facility, would you provide at least some travelling expenses for an individual?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: That piece has not been totally worked out yet. I have to say that if we get more money on our victims surcharge, one of the top pieces on the agenda is to provide that kind of support for travel. They are able to arrange it in some circumstances.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Do you have any recommendations on how the Criminal Code could be changed to facilitate delivery of service?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I'm not the Criminal Code expert in our ministry so I'll probably leave that to our experts in that area.

Mr. Paul Forseth: I take it there is an agenda there of a wish list. Maybe we'll hear from you.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I think someone from our Criminal Justice Branch may be appearing. They are probably best to address that.

Mr. Paul Forseth: Thank you.

The Chair: Go ahead, Chuck.

Mr. Chuck Cadman: I would just like to acknowledge the B.C. government and the Ministry of the Attorney General for including victims in these consultations to the extent that they have. That was another thing. The whole issue of making oral impact statements before the parole board came directly out of consultations with victims and victims organizations. Again I would just like to put on the record my acknowledgement of the B.C. government for doing this.

The Chair: Thanks.

Mr. Bellehumeur. We're taking about 10 minutes a round.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): I see that you're working for the Department of the Attorney General of British Columbia. Were you mandated to come here to tell us what the position of the government of British Columbia is or are you here in a private capacity?

[English]

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: No, I'm here on behalf of the province of B.C.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Okay. I would first like to congratulate you for your presentation and for all the services offered to victims in British Columbia. It is very refreshing to hear that kind of things because, according to what I heard about Western Canada up to now—and I have been a member of Parliament since 1993 only—I thought that victims were completely left to themselves in Western Canada. I see that at least one province is taking great care of them, and I congratulate you for that.

How does the government of British Columbia see the federal government's efforts to develop a program in an area of provincial jurisdiction?

[English]

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: As I said, the province of B.C. would see the federal government role as a complementary role to the one of British Columbia. Therefore, we would like to see their involvement in terms of looking at a co-ordinating role bringing in other jurisdictions across the country to share practices and expertise. Even though I think that B.C. is a forerunner in a number of these programs, I know that we could learn also from other provincial jurisdictions if they focused on other areas. We would see that as sharing some of that expertise.

• 0950

The other issue that I think would be really important for victims is for the federal government to provide a kind of victims lens to any kind of federal legislation that may be coming forward. They could look at that piece of legislation and advise what the impact would be on a victim in terms of introducing that legislation.

I have not talked about some of the changes in the Criminal Code, but certainly my minister has talked about some of the changes in the Criminal Code. We would welcome the federal government addressing those issues with respect to victims.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: As for the sharing of information, would I be right to say that now, the Attorneys General of the provinces meet regularly to discuss the different practices?

[English]

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Yes. There are regular meetings among the ministers. Recently there have been meetings among the directors of victims services across the country. Those have been largely facilitated by the federal government. What we are able to do is to prepare better some of our responses for our minister and as I said provide some of our background information to our colleagues across the country.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: If the federal government has money for victims, British Columbia would probably prefer a transfer since that province already has programs and knows where the needs are. The province could therefore put that money where it is more useful.

[English]

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Yes. If there was federal money available—we're all under fiscal and financial restraint and even B.C. has to be looking at that—we would like to see the money go to direct services for victims.

I mentioned our huge criminal injuries compensation program. The federal government did historically provide cost sharing money on that basis. That has been since cut back. That may have had some impact as to why other provincial governments have started to back off in that area. It's certainly an area that we have to look at in B.C. as well.

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Okay.

[Translation]

You are telling me that the federal government has backed off on some cost sharing programs with the province, I am not too sure about the programs, are they programs for victims? Did I understand correctly?

[English]

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: The criminal injuries compensation program, yes, that's direct compensation to victims of crime.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Finally, before developing new programs and spending money, we should perhaps revisit the victims assistance programs that were cut back.

[English]

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I would say so. Yes.

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Can I make one more comment?

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Oui.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: You mentioned looking at the programs across the country. As I said, one of the reasons I think we became aware that our programs were some of the best programs across the country and across the world actually is because a delegation from Sweden asked people where were the best victims services. They were told Canada and they were told British Columbia in Canada.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Paul Forseth): Mr. Telegdi.

Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.): Regarding the money spent on all the victims programs in B.C., how much would be from the province and how much money would there be from the feds?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: There is no money from the federal government.

Mr. Andrew Telegdi: There is no money from the feds.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: No. All of it is provincial money. I think $20 million in compensation with an overhead of $7 million so that's $27 million. If I guessed on the other pieces, we're probably looking at about $40 million very roughly.

Mr. Andrew Telegdi: I looked over Waterloo region as that is where I'm from. You are probably familiar with some of the programs in that area. We have something like 40 different programs that fall under some kind of victims service, provide some service to victims.

• 0955

The thing that strikes me about it for the most part is that either they're funded by the province or funded by the community or funded totally by voluntary donations. In the province of Ontario because of the kind of cutbacks we have had, these programs have been directly hit, virtually every one of them.

When I look at the programs what seems to be lacking—and I used to be involved in working in this area in the justice system—is any kind of real co-ordination. I guess the programs could work a lot better if there were some kind of co-ordination.

Outside of money from the proceeds of crime and I guess victims surcharge and what have you, do you get any money from those programs?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I'll deal with both questions.

In terms of co-ordination, our division has recently put together protocols among each and every program service delivery across the province. We provide administrative support for them to actually develop written protocols in terms of how a victim will be processed from one program to the other program.

Obviously in some parts of the province we may have three types of victim services. If there are some more specialized services in other parts of the province we may have only one and that might be our basic police based service. So we've tried to develop co-ordination that way.

In terms of additional money, one of the reasons we have been able to provide some more money recently to victims programs, whereas all other aspects of our provincial funding have either been cut or remain status quo, is because we have just recently introduced our provincial victim fine surcharge. With some of that new money we've been able to actually put some more money out to direct victim services.

In terms of the federal surcharge, although we take the federal surcharge money and put it into that particular account for victims initiatives, we receive one of the lowest amounts of money across the country from our federal surcharge. We had hoped by educating our judges that maybe there would be more money put into that account but we received I think last year $100,000 from the federal surcharge, one of the lowest.

One of the things we have asked the federal government to do is to look at the federal surcharge and increasing the amount that judges can put into that account but also making it administrative so that the judge does not have to order it but it automatically becomes a surcharge over and above the federal offence so that more money will go into that area. Then we could perhaps fund better some of the victims services.

Mr. Andrew Telegdi: One of the things I also noticed in the programs listed in my area is some of them particularly victims services by the police, the funding for them was started by the solicitor general federally. They funded for so many years and I guess it was a demonstration project and then it had to be taken over locally or it would fold.

I guess one of the ways that we do give money to this is through the transfer payments from the federal level but we don't really get to direct to where it happens to go.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Our police based programs are usually cost shared between us and the municipalities. In some municipalities they actually pick up the lion's portion of it and in other municipalities the provincial government is the major funder of it. There is no federal money. That is true.

Mr. Andrew Telegdi: What seems to impress me is the amount of co-ordination you have in B.C.

I know in Ontario they were going to do that and they talked about it back in the early 1980s. As a matter of fact they had justice weeks. They put out posters on victims. Outside of spending a lot of money on posters on victims which were put across the province nothing much came from it. Unfortunately, whenever there are cuts to programs, victims programs get cut just like every other program in the social service delivery system.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: We haven't experienced that but that's because we have very proactive advocacy organizations and victims assistance organizations that I don't think would allow that to happen very easily.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Paul Forseth): Mr. McKay.

• 1000

Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): I'd like to go on an entirely different line of questioning. We're being invited here to take a real look at victims rights and you have had a lot of experience in this whole process.

If we go back a few years, in the pre victims rights regime, the decision making process was that essentially the Crown and police made decisions, the victims were handy witnesses from time to time and that was the end of the story. We now have a fairly elaborate system of services, basically informational services, some help for people, etc., and one could say large scale group therapy in some respects, to put it on a little bit too crass a basis.

We're now at a turning point. My question is general but also, in some respects, goes right to the heart of the issue. Would you be prepared to see governments at both levels move towards a regime where the victim is mandated into the decision making process of the crime? That is, the victim is mandated to have had a discussion with the Crown and or police with respect to the actual laying of the charge, for example, with respect to the kind of pursuit, whether it's an indictable or a hybrid or a summary offence, or at the point of sentencing.

What is your general reaction to having a victim or victims as the case may be at the table at those points of decision making?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I would have to take off my government hat and not be speaking on behalf of the province.

It's an interesting question. I see both sides of the issue.

Having dealt with offenders, I fully believe that offenders have rights in the system. I believe that people who have worked in the system have an educated background and knowledge.

In our province, one of the policies that I am very supportive of is the pro charge policy. That is with respect to violence against women in relationships. In fact, if the victim does not want to go forward for the charge, we are advising our police and Crown prosecutors to in fact proceed with the charge because we feel that offender particularly and the situation is volatile and it's potentially a very dangerous circumstance for the victim.

Mr. John McKay: You're overriding the victim's rights.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: We're overriding the victim's rights in that particular circumstance for a particular reason. It's not an easy question. It's something that I'm not going to be able to give you an easy answer for. However, I feel that victims should be advised and consulted throughout the process. That's what we have put down in our legislation. Their information has to be balanced with other pieces of information.

Mr. John McKay: Having looked at both sides, your view is that you would not mandate a victim at the point of the decision as to whether a charge is to be laid or not.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Our mandate is that the victim should be contacted and consulted. It's not her or his ultimate decision.

Mr. John McKay: It's not his or her decision. Contact and consultation can go either way, even in the event that the victim doesn't want the charge laid. The Crown may for other reasons decide to lay a charge.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: If it's a particularly predatory offender for instance.

Mr. John McKay: Yes.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Which is something we're dealing with right now around sexual assault cases. Or as I said, in violence against women in relationships cases, we've looked at that in terms of some of the safety issues.

Mr. John McKay: What about at the point of sentencing, or the sentence to be sought? Is it still your view that is ultimately the decision of the Crown?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: The Crown makes the recommendation; it's the judge's decision.

Mr. John McKay: I'm sorry. Yes. The question was to be sought.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I think that's why we have victim impact statements or oral presentations by victims. They have an input into that.

Mr. John McKay: That is simply informational, but it's not the Crown saying I want five to ten, or whatever the number is.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Right.

Mr. John McKay: What about at the release points?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Again, I think it's the balance of the safety of the victim and the needs of the offender. I think that's another thing that we've introduced. If the safety of the victim outweighs the needs of the offender that is something that can be overridden.

• 1005

Mr. John McKay: So to try to summarize here, it would be your view that we do not push too much further into this area with respect to mandating victims' involvement.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Well, not mandating victims' involvement. I don't think we've had any involvement. We haven't even had consultation. We haven't even had a basic sharing of information. I think we've got to get to that stage first.

Mr. John McKay: It seems we're well below.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Yes, generally.

One place that we have given, as I said, in B.C., is that if the privacy rights of the victim are impacted, we have provided them with their own legal counsel in terms of making sure that their particular interests are addressed in that case.

Mr. John McKay: The minister this week released her suggestions with respect to a rework on the young offenders legislation.

The concept on violent offences is that violent discretionary offences for those 14 to 16 years of age and violent offences for those post 16 years of age, not just violent but serious offences I guess is a better phrase, will no longer be bumped up to adult court. Rather, it will stay within youth court but the Crown will elect at the beginning of the case as to whether they're going to seek an adult sentence. What is your reaction to the role of the victim in that decision?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Again I think the victim as in all these offences should be consulted in terms of the seriousness of the offence and the impact of the offence on the victim, and look at the particular dynamics of that particular offence and how it impacted the victim.

Mr. John McKay: So again you wouldn't give the victim the choice as to whether in that particular instance the Crown should seek an adult sentence.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: No, I wouldn't.

Mr. John McKay: On to a secondary area of questioning and that is with respect to restitution.

What concerns me when I read the material is that it's an appearance of rights without remedies. It's particularly true if a person has no assets, they have no assets, so there's nothing to talk about there. But there are instances where they do have assets, either assets shared jointly or encumbered assets.

My question is with respect to obtaining priority on those assets ahead of either secured or unsecured creditors. Have you done any thinking in the area of remandating legislation so that victims get priority access to assets?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: We haven't done any thinking in our jurisdiction on that area. The only place that we've addressed it is under our criminal injuries compensation program, because the program was initially set up for people who probably there isn't anything to get from. But we do give authority for the program to actually go after a particular offender to try to get some of those assets back if they're out there.

Mr. John McKay: Criminal injuries is a provincial jurisdiction matter, isn't it?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Yes.

Mr. John McKay: We've got basically the concept of the taxpayer paying the compensation and then the government chasing down the asset.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Yes.

Mr. John McKay: Again conceptually, is there any point in this government looking in that area? Is there a frustration area in that where we're not able to access assets that we could or should?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: There has been some discussion around the proceeds of crime and where is some of that money. Certainly we've had advocacy organizations again suggesting that money should go more towards victims initiatives in terms of some of that breakdown.

Again, under our criminal injuries compensation program we are putting more resources at that end to actually try to go after some of those assets from the particular offender. The victim is not barred to go after those assets, him or herself either, but we would have to repay what was paid out through the criminal injuries compensation program.

Mr. John McKay: Is there any issue with respect to making it more accessible to a victim to use the civil process in a more, how shall we say, expeditious way to work in their favour? In other words, once you've got a conviction on a particular offence, it could be used potentially as a summary judgment and used to access the assets of that individual. Should this committee be looking in that area as a means to obtain redress for a victim?

• 1010

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: Sounds like an area you could probably explore. We haven't really explored it.

Mr. John McKay: Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I haven't thought it through to that extent.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Paul E. Forseth): Ms. Bakopanos, would you like—

I have a further question. You talked about total revenue available from the provincial victim fine surcharge. Then you made reference to federal money in that aspect not happening. Can you describe the difference between how the two operate and perhaps why you're getting more money from one than the other?

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: The provincial fine surcharge is an automatic 15% surcharge on all provincial offences, fines, that kind of thing. It's automatically added on to any kind of fine payment and it goes into a special dedicated fund.

The federal surcharge is a surcharge that is up to a judge to order into a particular account. As I said, that hasn't been happening in B.C. by and large.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Paul E. Forseth): Okay. Mr. McKay talked about the civil side.

I'm just reminding you that I was able to get my private members' bill incorporated into government legislation concerning the amendments to the bankruptcy act.

Previously there was a short list of things that would not be discharged upon a bankruptcy such as the child maintenance payment or a fine at provincial court, such as a fine for impaired driving. You couldn't declare bankruptcy and get out from that fine. Now, because of the amendments to the bankruptcy act, a civil judgment that relates to assault that a victim has received because of perpetrator judgments related to those kinds of offences are also not dischargeable.

We previously had the situation where a lady was able to win a civil judgment against her stepfather who had assets because of an abusive situation over many years. This money was to pay for the psychological services that this lady needed. It went through the court and the judgment was won and everything. Then one payment was made and bankruptcy was declared. The fellow walked away from not paying his court judgment.

That law has been amended now and I'm wondering if you have any experience with the new regime or understanding that.

Ms. Susanne Dahlin: I don't, Paul, but actually I will track that down when I get back and find out what's happened in that area.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Paul E. Forseth): Mr. Cadman or Mr. Bellehumeur, do you have any further questions?

I suppose that draws a close to your presentation. It has certainly been very comprehensive, and I can say as a member from British Columbia, at least we're on the front edge in trying to do what we can for victims.

Thank you very much. We're adjourned.