PACC Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES COMPTES PUBLICS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, May 5, 1998

• 1539

[English]

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi (Kitchener—Waterloo, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order.

The first item on the agenda is a report from the subcommittee on agenda and procedure respecting future business of the committee. You all have your copies of the report.

Are there any comments on number 1?

• 1540

Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Ref.): I have a point of clarification, sir. We're looking at the citizenship report, are we?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Oh, no, no. What we're doing is setting future agenda.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Oh, I'm sorry, okay.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Because now we have a quorum, so we're proceeding in the regular fashion. It's the report of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure.

Number 1 talks about future topics. Is everybody in concurrence with it, or do committee members want to give input? Because of course the steering committee makes recommendations, but—

Okay? Agreed?

Mr. Rey D. Pagtakhan (Winnipeg North—St. Paul, Lib.): It is understood that this is not necessarily the sequence?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Yes.

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: It is not the sequence or it is?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): That's not the sequence we're going to do this in.

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: Okay. I just wanted to be extra sure.

(Motion agreed to)

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Number 2 is that the chair of the committee be authorized to seek the authority and the necessary funds to permit up to four members of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and two staff persons of the committee to travel to Yellowknife, Northwest Territories to attend the 19th annual conference of the Canadian Council of Public Accounts Committees from August 15 to 18, 1998, and that the members attending the conference utilize their air travel points to travel to the conference.

Mr. Laurin.

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Chairman, could someone explain why the delegation is only going to be made up of four members seeing that the Public Accounts Committee doesn't really exaggerate when it comes to travelling. Personally, I've been sitting on the Public Accounts Committee for the fifth year now and we haven't travelled once except to change buildings on Parliament Hill. On top of that, we should take into account that the members are going to be travelling at their expense. Why a four-person delegation only? That doesn't mean to say that all 15 members of the committee want to go, but there might be two or three more who might be interested. I'd like to know if it's possible to increase the number and, if not, why not.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Laurin.

Mrs. Sue Barnes (London West, Lib.): Just to clarify, that was the number put forward by the chair of the committee, but I have no objection. Also, I've made some indication that Liberal members may not be able to attend at this time, but I don't have a problem if other members want to go, if the rest of the committee feels that way. I feel people who have worked on this committee have earned their right to go. So it would not bother me.

And I would imagine that would mean expenses of hotels and meals.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): The clerk is telling me there is some difficulty with the numbers.

The Clerk of the Committee: This is being hosted by the Northwest Territories, and in their letter of invitation they have suggested that we try to have delegations of three or four people. That's what they usually send to all the provinces and territories.

There are some costs involved in hosting this. There is a registration fee, but there are costs involved, and some provinces have lower budgets than others. So we try to follow the usual guidelines.

In the case of the House of Commons, it has been the practice for the last couple of years to have the biggest delegation, but we've never sent more than four members and two staff. That's why the numbers are there.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Well, I wonder— Just looking at the letter here, it says the normal invitees to the annual conference include chairs, deputy chairs, and committee clerks of the public accounts committees, although other delegates would be welcome to attend as observers.

So maybe we should clarify this with the chair, because I do agree with my colleague that it's not often this committee gets to go, and if members are interested in going, they should have their opportunity.

• 1545

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: It's only three days, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

It's only for three days.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Could we provide—and this is just to make sure we get the budget process in place—up to six members? It might be a useful suggestion. Just in case it happens, then we can accommodate up to six members to go.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure who's paying. Inasmuch as this is an—

I'm sorry?

[Translation]

Mr. René Laurin: Mr. Chairman, there are already four members on it. If you increase the number to six and you add a Liberal member and a member from the Reform Party, that doesn't solve the problem for the other members on the opposition side.

We can always ask them. If they can welcome eight, we'll be there at our own expense. Three days in Yellowknife wouldn't break anyone's back. We'll pay. We have a travel budget and we'll use it.

If it's not possible, then they can say so. We won't go and that's that. But if it is possible, and you can ask them, then we could at least go there as observers. I might not be there, mind you, but it's the principle of the thing. I find our committee is being held back.

I get the impression the committee's hands are tied and that we're being told to stay here just to examine the Auditor General's reports. We seem to be prohibited from getting information from any other source. I think that's a bit much.

[English]

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Monsieur Laurin, I concur with you. We will find out. We'll send as many as we can or make it available to whoever wants to go. I think that would be a good point.

We'll have to clarify that and get back to it—and I'd love to have you come up to Yellowknife.

Mrs. Sue Barnes: Mr. Chair, can I make sure I understand what we're doing here? Is it the suggestion of the chair that we have our clerk contact and see if it's possible for as many regular members of the public accounts committee that have served this year, maybe more than four, to attend, and that we try to go for that?

Because I agree. I mean, this committee works hard for—

The Clerk: But you don't apply for a number. It's to permit “members” of the public accounts committee.

Mrs. Sue Barnes: Well, let's take out “up to four” and just put “members”. I will agree with that.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: What I'm not clear about, sir, is how many are being invited. It seems to me that this is a letter of invitation that has come to us, and I presume the Northwest Territories, who will be hosting this, is paying for it. Are we sort of making like a camel and shoving ourselves into the tent at their expense, or are we saying it doesn't matter, because we're going to pay for it ourselves out of our own budgets? I'm not sure how the financing of this trip is being done.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): First of all, the normal invitees to the annual conference include chairs, deputy chairs and committee clerks on the public accounts committee. But then it goes on to say, “other delegates will be welcome to attend as observers”.

I think we can phone up and clarify this. If people want to go, I agree with the general discussion that we'll make that happen.

It might be useful if some people would tell us if they are planning to go, because for planning purposes, at some point they have to make a decision, and we have to make a decision for budgetary purposes. So think about whether you do or don't want to attend, and then come forth.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Speaking for myself, if I can play a meaningful role there, in my capacity as a member of the committee, I would like to go, but if I'm going to be sat down to observe...what the other people are there, I'm not sure that would be worthwhile in terms of my time or the money it would cost.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Chair, it would be fitting in the discussion, I think, if we knew how many members we are talking about going.

If they have arrangements for only four members, but more members want to go, and if we define their role, what they will be doing, you can send an e-mail to all the members and get information on who is available to go. Maybe only six members are available to go on this date, in which case it will be easy for you to plan precisely how many members can go.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Mr. Pagtakhan.

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: While it may be a good suggestion on the surface, Mr. Chair, we have not answered the fundamental questions as raised by Mr. Mayfield. First, what is the purpose of the meeting for us, and second, do we really need six? Do we need four?

• 1550

I would submit that what we hope to get from such a conference would be knowledge and experience from them, and two, public relations. Now, if those are valid objectives, and we agree to that, then we will fund a trip for our committee.

The next question is, how many from our committee will be able to achieve that goal in terms of members of the committee from the House and members of the staff? Of course, we have to clarify with the inviting host precisely the role that people play. Are we making a presentation or what? As well, there's the representation of caucus members should there be a general interest among members of the committee to go. We have to take that into account. That's the nature of politics.

So I think if we have this information we will be able to decide on a particular motion at that time. At this point, it would be, from my point of view, premature to consider this motion, because we have many missing links.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): Thank you, Mr. Pagtakhan.

Mrs. Barnes.

Mrs. Sue Barnes: Perhaps I can clarify something. The only person I know who has attended this program so far has been John Williams. He told the steering committee that he went last year. I would suggest we defer this, then, until Mr. Williams can talk to all of us about his procedures, and find out the format. Mr. Williams seemed to indicate that the federal government was a very good example to a lot of the provincial public accounts committees.

I think we're going around in circles here. I have no objection to the people who have worked on this committee going, and I'll state that again.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): So we'll put it down until after the break.

(Motion allowed to stand)

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Andrew Telegdi): We'll suspend now and move in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]