HEAL Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HEALTH

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA SANTÉ

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, March 25, 1998

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[English]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan (Thornhill, Lib.)): The Standing Committee on Health is now in session.

Our first presentation will be by Dr. Chris Turner from the Manitoba Homoeopathic Association.

Welcome.

Dr. Chris Turner (Manitoba Naturopathic Association): Thank you. It's good to see you all again. I'm sorry there aren't more members to hear us speak today. I want to thank you for granting my request to appear before the committee, but I'm sorry you do not deem it appropriate for me to present in person.

Over the time that you have convened, you have heard much testimony. I see this presentation as being informative and as providing this committee with the chance to ask questions, for those of you who are there and for the time we have allotted today, to which you may not yet have answers.

As you know, in the jurisdictions of British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Ontario there is legislation that regulates the practice of medicine, including naturopathic medicine. It is naturopathic medicine that I'm currently practising in Manitoba.

In 1943 Manitoba first became licensed. The definition of drugs has substantially changed since then. We've had many years of practice in Manitoba with great success with our patients, and as regulated through the jurisdictional legislation.

In order to be licensed to practise medicine in Manitoba, one must first have completed the appropriate training, that being three years of pre-medicine equivalent to that of allopathic MD pre-medicine. Then one must attend an approved four-year residential naturopathic institution, completing all the required courses therein.

The first two years of the training are equivalent, again, to that of the allopathic physician. Human dissection and anatomy, physiology, pathology, biochemistry, lab diagnosis, X-ray diagnosis, clinical and physical diagnosis, pharmacology, pharmacognosy of drugs, botanical medicines, homeopathic remedies, and nutritional foods and supplementation are just a few of the courses you have seen in the course outline I've presented to you from the Canadian College.

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The clinical training is done primarily within the last two years of the training. The major difference between allopathic medicine and naturopathic medicine is in the philosophy, art, and practice and the types of medications used.

As a naturopathic doctor, I am interested in diagnosing the cause of the symptoms of my patients and not only treating their symptoms. I'd rather deal with the root of the problem and not just its branches. I will, when necessary, use all the diagnostic methods taught to me, which include all the more conventional diagnostic methods such as blood work, urinalysis, X-rays, CAT scans, and so on.

Although various provinces have legislation that allows for the practice of naturopathic medicine, there still does not seem to be a clear federal regulation as to which substances are within the domain of the naturopathic physician. What is a natural substance and what is considered a drug?

Why is it that naturopathic doctors do not have access to natural substances within the special access program? I have been informed in writing by the director of the Bureau of Pharmaceutical Assessment that this is an issue this committee has been directed to analyse, and I'd appreciate comments back on that from you.

Is the definition of a practitioner within the domain of the federal level, your domain, or the provincial jurisdictions? It should be clear to you that the naturopathic profession is currently the only profession that is trained to the same standards as our colleagues, the allopathic physicians. Despite this fact, the naturopathic profession has not been included in a consultative process to a level equivalent with our training.

Within the TPD, the TPP, and its staff, there appears to be a lack of inclusion of our profession. It is my interpretation that there must be a personal or group agenda that drives this directorate. One wonders whose best interests are being protected and to whom this directorate is accountable.

The Manitoba Naturopathic Association is greatly concerned that those who will be creating the new rules and regulations will not be those who are trained as experts in this field: individuals educated in the medical, laboratorial, and clinical use of complementary natural substances to diagnose and treat disease.

We ask that you, within your mandate, ensure that naturopathic doctors are included in all aspects of current or new legislation that regulates these substances. We fear that if continued restrictions are placed on our profession, many of our members will move to other jurisdictions where the naturopathic profession is honoured greater. This would leave the Canadian public without the quality of care that naturopathic doctors provide.

Access, prescriptive rights, and hospital privileges are already established in many jurisdictions in the United States. In Australia, complementary medicines refer to a regime for the prevention and alleviation of disease or ailment or for the maintenance of health, and one that does not necessarily rely on the evidence base of the current medical western practice.

As a result of being the experts in the field, naturopaths feel there are certain substances that should be restricted to those who are licensed for their use and certain substances that should be for the general public's unrestricted access. I realize you have received some submissions in this regard, but I also understand there has been some confusion around the changing of certain aspects of some of these reports. I would like to offer my expertise in helping you make further decisions in these matters.

The Manitoba Naturopathic Association also has concerns with regard to the assurance of content and labelling of natural substances. It is currently impossible to simply read a label to determine the content and efficacy of a natural substance. One must try to acquire information from the supplier, which could be influenced by sales. Verification of content and efficacy should be controlled by an independent body. The clinical performance of substances does help in their evaluation, and to my knowledge no federal moneys have been put to use in this area in providing practice-based studies.

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The concern of treating the entire person is not only a concern of treating presenting symptoms. It is at times hard to understand unless one has personal experience in this area. It is a process that requires proper training and clinical experience. The person's internal equilibrium of body, or the physical; mind, or the mental; and spirit, or the psycho-social, is evaluated.

An example I often use in my office is that a man came to see me with a sore big toe. We had a look at his toe, and it was one of those comic-book sore big toes in which the toe was throbbing and the sparks were flying.

I treated his sore big toe and helped to alleviate the discomfort he experienced. I went on to ask him where this came from. Did he have an accident? Did it get run over? He told me he had kicked his coffee table. I asked him, was the coffee table in the way? Did you slip? What happened? He said to me, well, I went to kick the dog and the dog moved and I hit the coffee table.

I went on to ask him, well, did the dog eat your slippers or not bring you the paper; what happened? He further told me his problem really was that his children weren't listening to him.

So the root of this individual's problem wasn't so much his presenting symptom of a sore big toe as this psycho-social issue around his interaction with his children.

Once the true cause of the disharmony is determined the patient can be guided to a state of well-being. We are in a constant state of change. The equilibrium that maintains health is in constant flux. The maintenance of balance requires not only medications, natural or synthetic, but also harmony of mental and psycho-social factors.

I'm going to end my talk a little quicker, so if there are questions or more members do actually show up.... I don't see any new ones arriving yet.

I want to thank you for your attention. I await your questions today, but also those you may have for me in the future.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

Is the next presenter ready to present?

Ms. Judy Hughes (Project Manager and Coordinator, Manitoba Homoeopathic Association): Yes, I am.

Good afternoon. My name is Judy Hughes. I'm here today as the project manager and coordinator of the Revival of Homoeopathy in Manitoba Project.

First of all, may I ask if the committee members received a copy of our presentation?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): I'll check with the clerk. He has stepped out for a minute. Why don't you proceed with your presentation and we'll see if they have received it.

Ms. Judy Hughes: Thank you.

On behalf of the three organizations representing homeopathy in Manitoba at these hearings, we welcome you to Manitoba and also to Winnipeg. On a personal level, and at the front end, I would first like to thank Sharron Scullion for all the work and assistance and information she provided us in making these presentations today. We would also like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the standing committee and the enormous task you have taken on.

In other opening remarks, I would like to say we are encouraged that Manitoba's health minister has opened discussions on the integration of Manitoba's health care system and that we have a further opportunity through this federal committee to present our views on appropriate regulations and standards required to ensure accountability in our new and reformed health care system. We appreciate the time limits of these hearings. We believe these hearings will have a substantial impact.

I would like to introduce our panel members now. Each group has chosen to make an individual presentation. At the end of those presentations we will offer a joint slate of recommendations we would like to go forward to the committee.

Mary Thiessen is here on behalf of the Manitoba Homoeopathic Association. Denise Appelmans and Dr. Leelamma Neilsen will be speaking about the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy. Josie Lucidi and Shoshana Scott will be speaking on Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic. We've asked Dr. Neilsen to present the joint slate of recommendations at the end of those presentations.

I will begin with a brief introduction to the revival of homeopathy project.

The mandate of this project is quite similar to that of the standing committee. Its mandate is to bring together all partners and stakeholders who wish to assist in the overall improvement of Canada's health care system. We advocate that the best protection for consumers is through education and awareness, freedom of choice, access and affordability of homeopathy as a recognized medical discipline and health care service, the quality and safety of products, and the need for qualified homeopathic physicians to deliver the service.

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The goals of the project are to work towards promoting education and awareness of homeopathy to the general public in Manitoba, Canada, and worldwide; promoting the acceptance and recognition of homeopathy as a legitimate health care discipline; raising the standards of preparation and distribution of homeopathic medicines and remedies; the provision of acceptable and affordable services by qualified homeopathic physicians through coverage of services and remedies as an insured service; and to bring accountability to the field of homeopathy through appropriate standards and regulations within all facets of the homeopathic health care system.

Our primary objective is to advocate in support of the revival of homeopathy in Manitoba, across Canada and worldwide. Since 1991, the people on this panel and many more have put their energy towards the revival of homeopathy by actively promoting homeopathic health and wellness. Numerous steps have been taken over this period of time to develop and deliver the demand for patient services and to establish a medical institute in Manitoba.

A number of accomplishments have already been achieved through the hard work of these people who are working together for a common cause. In Manitoba we now have the successful establishment of Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic. There is also the successful establishment of the Manitoba Homoeopathic Association and of the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy. We also see it as an accomplishment to be invited to make a presentation to the Standing Committee on Health.

Of the potential benefits that we see coming from the joint efforts of promoting homeopathy and integrating it into our current health care system, we've listed seven of the most significant that we feel would be of great benefit to Manitoba and to Canada.

One is to contribute to the ongoing development of a wide range of health and wellness services within the health care system. Others are to provide a process to bring together health care professionals and academics working to improve the homeopathy field; to provide flexibility for growth to occur, be viable and accommodate the need for existing services and programs in the homeopathic field; to assist in alleviating the current doctor shortage in Manitoba and perhaps Canada; to minimize the cost expenditures and increase the spending efficiencies while improving health and wellness in Manitoba's health care system; to increase career and employment opportunities for Manitobans by providing quality training and producing highly skilled professionals to fill the current vacancies in the health care field; and to recognize the mutual interests and initiative expressed in an innovative and creative project working towards securing trained professionals and establishing quality services in the field of homeopathy.

We believe these benefits will lead to better health and wellness for people as a whole. We are working diligently to achieve a successful outcome of these goals, and these are the groups that you will hear from on this panel.

I would like to thank the committee for listening to my opening comments. I'll now introduce to you the first panel member, Mary Thiessen, speaking on behalf of the Manitoba Homoeopathic Association.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

By the way, I should mention, just for your information, that many of the issues you addressed in your very interesting brief are not within the federal jurisdiction. All of the issues of the regulation of professionals and the inclusion as insured services are within the provincial domain. You might want to send a copy of your brief to your provincial health minister as well.

Ms. Judy Hughes: Thank you.

Ms. Mary Thiessen (Board Member, Manitoba Homoeopathic Association): Good afternoon. My name is Mary Thiessen, and I am pleased to be here to make a presentation to you on behalf of the Manitoba Homoeopathic Association.

In 1796, Samuel Hahnemann became known as the father of homeopathy. He gave us the following definitions, which we use today:

Homoeopathy is an indigenous medical treatment that works on the principle of the Law of Similars, which states:

@ti64 Any substance that produces specific toxic symptoms in a healthy person when given in its full strength form will cure a sick person with those same symptoms when given in a very diluted, minute form.

This is the specific principle known as similia similibus curantur, that like be treated by like.

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You will be hearing others on this panel give a more in-depth definition of homeopathy. At the turn of the century we had 14 successful homeopathic doctors in Manitoba. This system of medicine was brought over from Europe through the immigrant population. It was adapted to our North American climate and current health system with the help of indigenous people.

The Manitoba Homoeopathic Association originated in 1992. Its purpose was to bring together individuals who were interested in the practice and the development of homeopathy in Manitoba. Few people were aware of homeopathy except for those who had lived abroad or travelled to countries like India, France, England, Germany, Australia, Switzerland, South America and several others.

The goals of the Manitoba Homoeopathic Association are to educate the public and professionals about the principles and benefits of homeopathy, to establish standards and regulations for the practice of homeopathy in Manitoba, and to work towards establishing a homeopathic hospital and a research centre in Manitoba. One of these goals has already been reached with the establishment of the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy in March 1996. That was no small feat as 99% of our work is done on a volunteer basis. We are continuing the process of developing homeopathy in wider spaces through the revival of homeopathic projects that Judy has already referred to.

Many of us know that the current system of health in Manitoba and Canada can be improved to enhance our health and well-being so that we can, in turn, ensure that our children have a healing future. I appreciate this opportunity to speak to you today. Thank you very much.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much. We appreciate your presentation.

Next, please.

Ms. Denise Appelmans (Board Member, Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy Inc.): Good afternoon, it's a pleasure to meet with you this afternoon. I'm speaking on behalf of the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy. My name is Denise Appelmans.

I'm a board member and co-founder of the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy, and as well I attend second-year classes there. My presentation will begin with the definition of homeopathy, a brief history of how the institute came about, its objectives and a description of the institute. Then Dr. Neilsen will speak to the training programs, the curriculum and the standards and regulations.

Homeopathy is a system of treating sickness or disease that utilizes micro-doses of substances from plants, minerals or the animal kingdom to arouse a person's natural healing response. Homeopathy treats persons as a whole. It recognizes the fact that the whole person is affected when someone becomes sick. The body, the mind and the spirit are affected. It treats the whole person, not the diseased part. The homeopathic approach of treating the person as a whole makes it a holistic medical therapy. It studies one's whole body and mind and individualizes a person, then applies medicines to the disease according to the specific principle known as similia similibus curantur, that like be treated by like. Homeopathic medicine stimulates the person's overall resistance to infection. Homeopathic medicine strengthens the organism so that it is—

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Excuse me, I'm going to have to ask you to speak into the microphone so that the recorders will get everything you're saying. We don't want to miss any part of your presentation. Thank you very much.

Also, we have not received a copy of the written brief that you asked if we had received, so if you could send along another copy of the brief, we'll be sure it is distributed to everyone.

Okay, ready to go?

Ms. Denise Appelmans: Yes. Thank you.

Dr. Neilsen has been practising homeopathic medical care in Winnipeg since early 1991. As her practice escalated, interest in homeopathy by other health professionals steadily grew, and by October 1992 Dr. Neilsen began teaching four students. By May 1996 demand for classes increased so dramatically that it became necessary to set up a training institute. Studies commenced in September 1996 and the first graduation is scheduled for the year 2000. Registration takes place every May to June.

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The Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy was founded by Dr. Leelamma Neilsen and was established in March 1996 through the efforts of many dedicated individuals. It was established to ensure acceptable and responsible levels of qualified homeopathic professionals in response to the ever-increasing demand for medical treatments and services. It would also address the undisputed need to meet the growing demand for qualified homeopathic physicians in Manitoba, as well as fill the labour market void for positions in Canada.

The institute is an approved educational institute by Revenue Canada and tuition fees are tax-deductible. It was incorporated in May 1996 with the following objectives: to promote the growth, development and integration of homeopathy in Manitoba and across Canada; to produce qualified, competent homeopathic physicians; to conduct research on various aspects of homeopathy and to provide services and facilities for research, evaluation, training, consultation and guidance related to homeopathy.

We believe the educational program delivered at the institute is one of the best in North America, and through the curriculum utilized it puts in place a regulatory framework that creates essential standards for the field of homeopathy.

It's a great privilege for me to introduce to you this afternoon Dr. Leelamma Neilsen. Dr. Neilsen is the executive director of the institute and will be describing the training program to you. Her presentation speaks to the uniqueness of the program, including its cultural origins, academic characteristics, curriculum, standards for teaching professionals and description of qualifications to practice.

Dr. Neilsen is educated and trained as a homeopathic physician. Academically, she holds a diploma in homeopathic medicine, surgery and midwifery from the Council of Homoeopathic Medicine in West Bengal, India, and is a post-graduate research student at the National Research Institute of Homoeopathy in Calcutta.

Dr. Neilsen is a gold medallist in homeopathic philosophy. She is a faculty member and executive director of the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy, Winnipeg, Canada, and a faculty member of the Homeopathic College of Canada in Toronto, Canada. She has over 16 years of experience in the field of homeopathic treatment and teaching.

While in India, Dr. Neilsen established several free homeopathic clinics in association with the Christian Social Service, the Church of North India and the Lions Club. In recognition of her work, the Christian Social Service established Neilsen's Homoeopathic Movement for the Poor. She held a post of adviser-in-chief, medical and health, for four years with numerous community programs. The first and only homeopathic clinic in Winnipeg was established by Dr. Neilsen, where she is currently practising.

In addition to her busy practice, she is involved in teaching and promoting homeopathy throughout Canada and the United States.

All of Dr. Neilsen's education was received in India through established homeopathic medical colleges, where they are fully funded by the government. In India, homeopathic medicine is extremely popular. All forms of health care under the health ministry of India have the same status and the same respect. Health services are adequately funded, including homeopathic institutes and research centres. We are truly thankful that Dr. Neilsen is here with us today.

Thank you very much. Dr. Neilsen will now describe the training program and curriculum.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

Dr. Leelamma Neilsen ( President, Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy): Good afternoon. My name is Dr. Leelamma Neilsen.

It's a great pleasure and I consider it an honour to present before the Standing Committee on Health today. I have great faith in homeopathy and its unique healing science. It is a preventative, promotive and curative science. Hippocrates, the father of medicine, said: “Let food be thy medicine and medicine thy food”.

Man is a complex, integrated, psycho-biological unit of life, with consciousness and intelligence. Healing has to come from within. Our body is capable of defending itself against diseases. The immune system needs to be strengthened and not be suppressed, depressed or oppressed under any circumstances. The body has enormous wisdom of arranging and rearranging itself according to situations. It responds to stimuli.

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The homeopathic system of medicine does not only cure illness, but it also preserves health and prevents illness. The homeopathic system of medicine can be said to be a biochemical medicine that balances the organic and inorganic chemistry of the cells. It balances the pH and maintains the homeostasis of the body. Healing has to be total and complete. Homeopathy is now spreading widely all over the world.

Certain principles of homeopathy have been laid down for practitioners. Some are ignoring them, and many are practising in an unscientific manner. To apply the art of homeopathy without science is merely a pretence.

In order to practise safely the art of curing the sick, the homeopathic physician must know the signs. We therefore need to bring out qualified, competent homeopathic practitioners. Honouring the necessary standards will ensure that homeopathy continues to flourish as a respected medical science. It is for those reasons that I became involved in the enormous task of establishing the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy in Winnipeg.

The Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy offers a four-year, full-time doctor of homeopathic medical science program. We have received numerous inquiries from United States, Japan, Ireland and across Canada. Our third year begins on September 9, 1998. We have an extensive four-year program.

The first year, we have: an extensive program of anatomy, embryology, which covers 192 hours; history of homeopathic medicine, 64 hours; homeopathic promises, 64 hours; materia medica and homeopathic philosophy, 128 hours; organon and principles of homeopathic medicine, 64 hours; physiology, part I, 192 hours; fundamentals of health, psychology, 20 hours.

The second year, we have: anatomy, part II, 192 hours; case-taking, analysis, evaluation, 64 hours; chronic diseases and homeopathic philosophy, 64 hours; fundamentals of psychology, 20 hours; homeopathic materia medica, part II, 64 hours; physiology, part II, 192 hours.

The third year, we have: immunology, dermatology, homeopathic materia medica part III, 96 hours; organic medicine, 64 hours; pathology, bacteriology, parasitology, 160 hours; obstetrics and gynaecology, 192 hours.

The fourth year, we have: homeopathic materia medica and therapeutics, 32 hours; practice of medicine, 96 hours; social and preventive homeopathic medicine, including health, education and community preventive care, 96 hours; surgery, including ENT, eye and dental diseases, and radiology, 112 hours; internship of homeopathic applications supervised by instructors, 592 hours.

That's a total of 2,792 hours in four years of courses.

From this you can see, we have the best curriculum, the best faculty, the best instructors and the best students, first and second year, who are so committed and qualified and competent.

As to the current status of health care in Canada, we cannot deny the reality of the deterioration of the normal health of the masses. The growth of many unknown diseases by leaps and bounds is creating problems. People are scared even thinking about modern medicines. Credit and discredit for all the things happening today in people's health goes to so-called modern medicine. People are forced to think about alternative systems of treatment for their protection. This void in the health care system can be bridged only by homeopathy, the system of treatment based on the natural law of curing without any side effects whatsoever.

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Many benefits can be derived from the integration of homeopathy into our current health system. To be effective, health services require changes from an illness-centred and crisis management approach to a wellness approach toward health and health care that is both preventive and curative. When we reach that stage, with the financial help of the federal and provincial governments, then we can take away some of the burden and lessen the financial crisis faced by the current ailing health care system.

To the question of regulation, there is a definite need for regulations and standards. However, there is sufficient for the level of practice that occurs at present. We should allow existing practitioners to practise, providing they have sufficient background and qualifications.

To the question of freedom of choice, it is essential to safeguard, because there are problems with certain dilutions or potencies. Some remedies with potencies up to 36 could be made available to the public as non-prescription remedies and sold over the counter. Others, for example, arnica, belladonna, chamomile, nux vomica—a few remedies—would not be made available without dilution, because there could be more harm than good.

The standing committee's mandate is to consult broadly with all stakeholders. These hearings could provide the window of opportunity essential to truly improving and enhancing the health and well-being of people in Canada. We must all make a commitment to work together in a cooperative, innovative, and collaborative way in moving away from an illness-centred approach to a wellness-centred one. We have to think creatively in building wellness instead of fixing illness.

I thank you for this opportunity.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

The next presenter, please.

Ms. Josie Lucidi (Advisory Committee, Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic): Good afternoon. My name is Josie Lucidi, and with me is Shoshana Scott. We will be presenting on behalf of Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic. I will be speaking from the perspective of a consumer, and Shoshana will be speaking from her experience as an assistant at the clinic. I will begin with a brief history of the clinic.

Dr. Neilsen began practising homeopathy in 1991, shortly after she arrived in Winnipeg. Her son B.J. had told a neighbour's child who had asthma that his mother could cure her. Dr. Neilsen did just that.

From there her practice flourished and increased significantly by word of mouth. Then an even greater interest developed, with other professionals wanting to learn the practice of homeopathy.

Today thousands of patients and their families come to the clinic, which is located at 101-912 Portage Avenue in Winnipeg. They travel from across Canada and the United States, and from France to Bogota to Vietnam. They come from various cultural backgrounds, including Hutterite colonies, aboriginal, Indian, Filipino and Vietnamese. They come from all walks of life, including truck drivers, lawyers, doctors, teachers, farmers, preachers, consultants and students.

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From my first-hand experience with homeopathy, this is what I have learned. Homeopathy is a medical system that uses micro-doses of substances from plants, minerals, or the animal kingdom to stimulate the immune system, making the cells capable of defending the body from sickness.

Homeopathic medicine is used to treat a wide range of conditions, including acute infection, injury, chronic diseases, and mental or emotional disorders. It is safe because it does not bombard, overpower, or damage the cells. It is preventative because it triggers the body's immune response, which is how we heal and avoid getting into a weakened state.

It is holistic or integrative because it acts on the physical, mental, and emotional body and the state of my being. It is therapeutic because the practitioner listens, and takes into account all of my concerns, worries, impressions, and expressions of the body in considering the right medicine at the right time. It is individual because it recognizes the uniqueness of our life situation, and it is respectful of that. Treatment is not likely the same for any two people.

Homeopathy strengthens the immune system, making the body capable of defending itself. It is empowering, as it puts the ability and the responsibility for my own healing squarely in my own hands.

As a consumer, I strongly believe this system of health treatment must become accessible and affordable to all Canadians. For this to happen, the appropriate regulations and standards need to be put in place as a measure to balance freedom of choice and safety for those of us who choose to utilize homeopathy for better health.

I would like to thank the committee members for listening.

I'll now introduce to you Shoshana Scott.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

Shoshana, welcome to the committee.

Ms. Shoshana Scott (Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic): Thank you.

Good afternoon. It's a great honour to be here today. I work as an assistant to Dr. Neilsen at Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic. I'm currently a second-year student at the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy.

My presentation will speak on the areas of how I became involved in the field of homeopathy, functions of the clinic, processes used at the clinic, standards and regulations, and current demand for service.

My interest in the field of homeopathy began after experiencing first-hand its curative power. I started working at Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic, where it soon became apparent that the practitioner had to be skilled, not only in biochemistry, anatomy and physiology but also well developed as an intuitive, integrative professional.

The urge to master the art and science of this health practice led me to seek further education. However, I faced a dilemma, because there was no college that used the curriculum Dr. Neilsen followed. So with Dr. Neilsen's support and expertise, the Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy was established in Winnipeg. Since September 1996 I have been enrolled in homeopathic studies at that same institute.

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Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic functions in a holistic way, treating a person's total health versus just the disease. Orientations, community education and specialty clinics are held on a regular basis. Some of the specialty clinics delivered include children's clinics, clinics for asthma and fibromyalgia. Invitations to hold clinics and to give guest lectures pour in on a weekly basis.

I would like to describe the process used at Neilsen's clinic from the point of first contact with a potential patient.

First, the patients attend an hour-and-a-half-long orientation session that gives practical information on how the body functions, what one should and should not do to become healthy, and what homeopathy is. This process is observed to ensure that patients make an informed decision before proceeding with homeopathic treatment.

Next, patients complete a questionnaire detailing their medical history, family history and present concerns on a physical, emotional and intellectual level. During their appointment and consultation at the clinic, an extensive case-taking and physical exam are performed. A personalized homeopathic program is then designed to meet the individual needs of the patient, and a follow-up appointment is made. If patients have concerns between appointments, they can call or drop in at the clinic, depending on the nature of the illness.

Regarding standards and regulations, at the present time there is no official legislative body for homeopathy in Manitoba or Canada. The following is an example of how we practise self-regulation at Dr. Neilsen's clinic. All of the medicines sold are to patients of the clinic. Every medicine is sold with an explanation of what it is, how to use it, and how long to take it. Staff only sell what's written on the prescription by Dr. Neilsen, and assistants work under the supervision of a qualified homeopathic physician.

Regarding current demand for service, the opening of Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic on Portage Avenue, and an article in the Winnipeg Free Press generated an overwhelming response from the public. Demand in Winnipeg now vastly exceeds the capacity to provide homeopathic medical care to those who request it. In response to high levels of inquiries for services in rural and northern Manitoba, discussions have begun on the development of satellite community clinics.

In order to facilitate moving forward to meet those demands we need more qualified homeopathic doctors, accessible funding dollars to help the doctors set up the community clinics, and stabilized funding to continue supporting the institute so that we can generate our own doctors. We can then truly say we are working towards freedom of choice, accessibility, affordability and safety for consumers.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much. Are there any other presenters?

Dr. Leelamma Neilsen: Yes, this is Dr. Neilsen again. I'm making a joint recommendation on behalf of the Manitoba Homoeopathic Association, Manitoba Institute of Homoeopathy and Neilsen's Homoeopathic Clinic.

Homeopathy should be recognized as an autonomous school of medicine, having the same status and respect as the conventional health system.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): That's entirely within provincial jurisdiction.

Dr. Leelamma Neilsen: Okay, then we'll forward it to the province. We'll continue and you can direct us on where to send it. Thank you for that information.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): After you've read all of your recommendations, I'll tell you which ones are within the federal jurisdiction so that you can direct the others to the proper provincial authorities.

Dr. Leelamma Neilsen: Okay.

We recommend the following:

Homeopathy should be recognized as an autonomous school of medicine having the same status and respect as the conventional health system. This could include but not be limited to recognition as a legitimate health discipline, coverage as an insured service, accessible and affordable to all Canadians.

Funding dollars should be made available immediately to small and emerging institutes for student loans and research grants, to assist homeopathic doctors in setting up community clinics, and to stabilize funding to the Manitoba Institute so that we can generate our own doctors.

A joint federal-provincial advisory committee of homeopathic physicians should be established to advise Health Canada regarding the selection and implementation of recommendations to put forth especially dealing with homeopathy.

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Health Canada should make a concerted effort to work with the Manitoba provincial government regarding the revamping of the medicare system

Mechanisms should be developed to accurately identify and classify the true homeopathic remedies as medicines.

Complex medicines or remedies should not be classified or allowed to be called homeopathic medicines. External application of homeopathic creams and lotions—for example, eczema cream or psoriasis cream—could prove to be equally dangerous, as they do not adhere to the principle of homeopathy. Homeopathy is treating with the similar, following the principle of using one remedy at a time.

All qualified homeopathic practitioners should have full access to all the remedies and medicines available in the materia medica, and those same remedies and medicines should be referred to by their indigenous names. For example, when I came here, I could not buy nux vomica. They thought it was sold as Colubrina. So that created a little confusion among homeopathic practitioners.

A national-provincial information and resource network should be established for the purpose of providing current and accurate information on homeopathy. This would include but not be limited to a 1-888 number to ensure equal access. It could provide information on what homeopathy is, who is practising, and where to find qualified practitioners. “Qualified” would refer to those practitioners who had met the standards and qualifications set by.... At this level, we do not have any provincial standards, so the government might have to look into that and come into the picture to help to solve the problem. The 1-888 number would not be accessed for information or diagnosis or medical treatment.

I wish to take this opportunity to convey my thanks on behalf of all the participants who presented here. Thanks to the Standing Committee on Health. Thank you and good evening.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

Given the number of recommendations you have, I'm going to suggest that the clerk categorize them as to those that are provincial—and we'll notify you so you can send them off to the provincial government in Manitoba—and those that are under the federal jurisdiction, which this committee will consider as part of its deliberations.

We have a very few minutes left. I'm going to ask the committee members if they would agree to just one round of questioning with three minutes per questioner. We've just been notified there's another vote in the House. We have to be there in one hour.

Dr. Hill, do you have any questions?

Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): No, I'll pass and let Judy have her time.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): I see no questions from this side.

Judy.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Thank you very much.

First of all, I would like to thank all of the presenters for taking the time to appear before our committee. I just wish there was more time for us to get into a longer dialogue.

I've had the privilege of working with all of the presenters and receiving information and understanding from those with us today. I'm glad you're here sharing this with the rest of the committee.

Although the chair says some of what you have recommended is beyond the scope of this committee or in fact beyond the scope of the federal government, what you have been saying is similar to what some other presenters have been saying, which is that if we as a government and as a committee are truly interested in looking at holistic models of health care that address health care on the basis of wellness, then we have to seriously look at expanding our idea of health care and working towards inclusion of age-old traditions and practices such as homeopathy and naturopathy.

• 1725

My questions are as follows.

First, I would assume your long-term goal is the integration of homeopathy and naturopathy as part of our health care system in Canada, and that means eventual financial support and coverage.

Second, given that homeopathy requires that only skilled practitioners prescribe drugs, what are the specific problems you have as practitioners to get access to the medicines you need to do your job?

Third, are you concerned that right now we have a lot of over-the-counter, so-called homeopathic remedies popping up in drugstores and supermarkets all over the place that aren't really homeopathic remedies? What should we do about that?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Who would like to answer that? We just have about two minutes left.

Dr. Leelamma Neilsen: Regarding the over-the-counter drugs and medicines and complex remedies, we have a serious problem that could endanger your lives, our children's lives and the health of Canadians at large. Complex remedies have side effects because they are not under the mandate of true homeopathic medicine. As I have highlighted, homeopathic prescription creams like eczema creams, psoriasis creams, acne creams and lotions and potions coming into homeopathy should be basically banned for the benefit of homeopathy.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up because our time is over and we won't have enough time for the next group. Please just conclude very quickly.

Dr. Leelamma Neilsen: Opium, for example, is a very valuable homeopathic prescription remedy that we cannot access here, for some reason. There are some things we can forward to you due to the time constraints. I would like the naturopath to have a chance to answer some of the questions.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): If there are any of you who would like to respond further, we would appreciate it if you would send your answers in writing. Just address them to the clerk of the Standing Committee on Health, and the committee will receive them.

I want to thank you all today for participating in the videoconference. I also want to thank you for your patience with the committee. We have a number of people who are ill. I'm sure you could offer us some good advice.

Dr. Leelamma Neilsen: Yes, definitely. Prevention is better than a cure.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much for participating today. We appreciate it.

Is the next group there and ready to come in?

Dr. Chris Turner: If committee members have further questions, could they put them to us in writing?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): If we have any further questions, the clerk will send them to you individually—we have the list of your names—although I do have to tell you that most of the issues you addressed are within provincial jurisdiction. Thank you very much.

Would the next presenters please—

Dr. Chris Turner: Thank you, Elinor. While the presenters are changing, I need to make the distinction between the presentation I made from the Manitoba Naturopathic Association and the balance of the presenters here. I'm not part of their group.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): I understand that. Thank you very much.

• 1730

• 1734

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Welcome to the Standing Committee on Health.

We will have approximately 50 minutes for your presentation and questions from the committee. If there are any additional questions committee members have, we'll put them on the record and the clerk will send them to you in writing. But we want to give you as much time as possible to put your presentation before the committee today.

We appreciate your patience. There was an earlier vote and there will be a vote in about 50 minutes. Thank you for your patience, and welcome to the standing committee.

Please begin your presentation now by introducing the first presenter. Please speak into the microphone so we can pick everything up on the record and do the translation.

• 1735

Mr. Henry Wilson (Counsellor, Opasquiak Cree Nation): My name is Henry Wilson. I'm a counsellor from the Opasquiak Cree Nation.

Today we're going to be talking about traditional medicine with your committee. We have a delegation here. We've brought our elder, Emil Merasty, with us, and we have two traditional people with us who will be speaking on this issue. One of them is Larry Constant and the other guy is John Bignell, also from the Opasquiak Cree Nation.

In Opasquiak we're making a policy to manage this program and we came up with some recommendations. We have it written up, but I'll get Larry to speak to you about it.

One of our recommendations for healers is that we must have some sort of governance on it. We're sort of licensing these guys coming into our community, and we're making a policy that is in the final stages of approval. This is how we think we can control this program.

The other thing, to top it off, is that we need, I think, a provincial body with the same objective, and then the next one would a national one. We're proposing that these guys, like doctors, lawyers and dentists, who have to govern themselves...the talk about this thing, especially the teachings and the traditional medicine, is that they're trying to institutionalize it, and our position is that this is not acceptable. This is a skill that has been passed on for generations, and we'd like to keep it like that.

So with those brief comments, maybe I can give the floor to one of our healers, Larry Dorion.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

Welcome.

Mr. Larry Dorion (Traditional Healers Committee, Opasquiak Cree Nation): I have spoken with the traditional people in our community and with various traditional healers across Canada. I know many of them. They asked if we would put something down on paper that would explain our standpoint when it comes to natural medicines and traditional medicines, and this is what I've done. We've brought this to you, and I'm bringing it to your attention right now. It goes like this.

The connection between first nations spirituality and our Mother Earth has been, is and will forever be one and the same. The actions of the Government of Canada to regulate natural medicines, even if there is good intent, will not and cannot be acceptable to first nations herbal medicine because of this fact.

It will be viewed by first nations traditional healers as an encroachment into our—for lack of a better word—“religion”. The word “religion”, however, does not sit well with first nations spiritual teachers, as we believe that our way of worship is a complete way of life.

It will be viewed by first nation spiritual leaders, teachers and healers as an encroachment upon our culture as people. For by this point in time it has been well documented that first nations peoples deal with healing through the four fundamental components of the human being, which are spirit, emotion, body and mind. This is what we mean by holistic and holistic healing.

• 1740

Now, if there is an attempt, however well meaning, to regulate a portion of this fundamental belief, namely herbal medicine, it will be viewed as a separation of a part of the whole. This part that of course will come into question will be physical, for this is what we use our herbal medicine for. Herbal medicines are a part of the greater whole, and any removal of any of the whole would be seen by the people as a direct encroachment upon our culture and belief systems.

We hold the belief that our spiritual beliefs and culture would be protected and never compromised. I'll give you an example. If the Government of Canada went to the Roman Catholic Church and said that they were going to write a policy concerning their cardinals, bishops, and priests in Canada, what do you think their reaction would be? To first nations people, this is how that action would be viewed.

However, if there is a need for a policy, then let that policy be written by the very people it will affect the most: first nations traditional spiritual leaders, teachers, and healers.

At this point, I thank you for listening.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

Could I ask you if the Swan Lake First Nation Health Centre and the Turtle Island Centre Family Services are going to be joining you?

Ms. Deborah Amey KiiskeeN'tum (Executive Director, Turtle Island Centre Family Services): Turtle Island is here; Swan Lake had a crisis in their community, so they're not able to be here today.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much. Would you let them know that they can submit it in writing to the committee? We'll be pleased to hear from them. Thanks very much.

Who's the next presenter?

Ms. Deborah Amey KiiskeeN'tum: I guess I am. Is Sharron Scullion there?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): No, she's not here right now, but we'll give her your message.

Ms. Deborah Amey KiiskeeN'tum: Sharron had something that she was going to hand out to each of you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Yes, it has been handed out. That's the pouch with the sacred tobacco. We all received it, and we want to thank you very much.

Ms. Deborah Amey KiiskeeN'tum:

[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in her native language]

As I begin, please be aware that what I share is my understanding and experience. This is what I've learned in life and from my traditional elders and teachers. The way I understand it is not the only way things are, it's just the best that I can offer to the committee from a good place in my heart with good intent.

I will introduce myself by my traditional name, KiiskeeN'tum, which means “she who remembers”. My heritage is of the Haudenosaunee people, also known as the Six Nations or Mohawk people. I also honour my Cree ancestry. My clan is the Turtle, and the name given to me by my parents at my birth is Deborah. I grew up near Tyendinaga territory, which is part of the Six Nations Confederacy.

My grandmother was a traditional healer and the local midwife until we got a hospital and doctor. She provided healing to the people who came to her. They offered tobacco and gifts of cloth or other things as they sought healing for their minds, bodies, and spirits. She passed that sacred trust on to me before she passed on to the spirit world 12 years ago.

As I was taught, the tobacco offered to you was one of the first medicines that was given to first nations peoples by our Creator at the beginning of time. When it is offered and a request is made, there is an opening of a door between the physical world we live in and the spiritual world of our Creator and the sacred grandmothers and grandfathers. This sacred tobacco creates a covenant between all of us here such that the spiritual energies and inherent beliefs that all people have will be present throughout these proceedings and in your deliberations and recommendations in the future.

I invite each of you to allow your own spiritual beliefs to become present in a real way and to assist you in your investigations of alternative or complementary medicine and therapies. I invite each of you to carefully consider the consequences your investigation and any subsequent recommendations may have, not only for those who live now, but for our children and our children's children down to the seventh generation.

When I was young, which is a lot longer ago than I want to admit, things were different for first nations peoples, particularly my own. Until I was six, we were not allowed to leave our reserve without a travel permit from the Indian agent to go shopping or seek medical attention. We were not allowed to vote, nor we allowed to own land outside the reserve.

Our longhouse, the seat of our government for hundreds of years, was padlocked. Our hereditary leaders were set aside in favour of an elected system that was contrary to our beliefs and ideals, which is the one that governs us today.

• 1745

My grandmother, a little woman who stood only four-foot-something, was arrested for practising medicine without a licence because she used herbs, prayers, ceremonies, and healing rituals to assist people to heal their bodies, their minds, and their spirits. Our sacred ceremonies were outlawed. Our language was banned. Our children were taken from their families and sent to residential school.

I myself was taken from my parents and my brothers, placed in foster homes, restricted from contact by my parents, my grandparents, and all that I knew. My grandmother was called a “witch” by the social worker and the minister. Each time I went into a new foster home, my hair was cut off and kerosene was poured over my head to kill the lice I didn't have. In my community we cut our hair only when someone dies. I thought my family was dying and no one was telling me.

Many of these things thankfully no longer exist, and we are beginning everywhere across this place we call Turtle Island to reclaim our culture, our heritage, our values and beliefs, our ceremonies, and our control over our own lives and those of our children. There is a new openness of spirit, of seeking more than a medical or scientific model to restoring health. As many of the presenters before you at other hearings have said, there is more and more of an interest among the public in having access to herbs and healing, homeopathic practices, naturopathy, chiropractic, and many other things, such as acupuncture. Many native people are seeking restoration in the traditional healing rituals and ceremonies of their own communities.

When I first heard of these hearings, I was really excited. I envisioned an opportunity for the different healing strategies to become more accessible and maybe even available under the health care systems. However, as I have read and studied the submissions that have been previously submitted to the committee, I have become more and more afraid. Each person or group that has appeared before you seems to represent huge associations, pharmaceutical companies, professions, and they all want a piece of the action of this new, lucrative, and profitable venture. Many of them have presented you with studies about what they think you should recommend for legislation, with reams and reams of paper behind them, all of these paid for by their respective sponsors.

Some of these recommendations, if they were implemented as I understand them, would again create an atmosphere of cultural annihilation. In South America some countries have already signed over patent protection on certain medicines which have been used by indigenous people for thousands of years. The traditional healers in those communities can no longer harvest their medicines without paying the companies' fees or facing arrest, prosecution, and imprisonment. That's as recently as last year.

No one I have seen, until I heard these people speaking today, has asked that we be respected for the way we lived before the coming of the people from across the water. Our medicines and our herbs are sacred. They are gifts from our Creator. They give of themselves so we may heal and continue to live.

I was taught that dreams often carry messages to us. Shortly after I began to study some of the submissions I was given a dream that was really frightening.

For a moment, take a breath and relax and imagine people picking medicines; men, women, children, and elders. They are offering tobacco and prayers to the four directions, to our Creator, to Mother Earth, prayers of appreciation and gratitude, asking the plants to share themselves in a healing way with those who become ill. The children are listening to their grandparents as they learn how this is done. There is excitement on their faces. They ask questions, as children will. Grandfather Sun is bright and shining and birds are singing. Brother Wind speaks gently, carrying the scent of wild flowers.

I look across the meadow where sweetgrass grows, and I find something that does not fit, a huge sign that says “Everything that grows here is protected. Nothing can be harvested. Anyone harvesting without permission from”—and there was a big drug company's name on the sign—“is subject to immediate arrest and imprisonment.”

That's a really frightening thing for me, and it's a very real thing. We've had so many of our things taken away from us over the last 500 years.

I agree with what my brother here has said. We must begin to address those issues as communities. We must begin to decide for ourselves and not have those things legislated or mandated by the governments.

Since the beginning of time, first nations people have used plants and herbs, rituals and ceremonies, to support, restore, and regain health. We believe that all parts of us—mind, body, spirit and relationships—should be in balance and harmony with each other and with our Mother the Earth in all of our relations. We believe that we are related to all that exists. Everything that walks on two legs or four, that swims or flies, that creeps or crawls, is our relative.

• 1750

I was also taught that part of the healing energy in those sacred plants and those medicines comes from the honouring in a spiritual way, and if those rituals are not followed, some of that healing is lost. To legislate our ability or our right to access our cultural practices, our right to use medicine and herbs for healing, to give that over to a drug or pharmaceutical company, to pharmacists or anyone else, would be just another form of destroying our culture.

I recognize the public's need for safety, for quality of products, for minimum standards of labelling and packaging and sale. I also see the potential for disaster, where again our culture is legislated away and the profits taken away from our communities, our heritage and our future.

I must admit, as a Haudenosaunee person, that my first instinct is to call for no legislation, the less the better, but part of me is also a realist and recognizes the need for some rules. I believe that first nations peoples should determine for themselves how these things might take shape in the future. I believe we must be exempt from whatever legislation that may find its way into our legal system may suggest. We must maintain our sovereignty and our rights in this. Anything else would be a travesty. I don't want to leave that legacy for my children and my grandchildren.

Thank you for listening to me.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much for a very interesting presentation.

Is there anyone else who would like to present to the committee? Is Frank Walker there?

Mr. Frank Walker (Individual Presentation):

[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in his native language]

My English name is Frank Walker.

[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in his native language]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Could I ask that you speak right into the microphone? We can't hear you.

Mr. Frank Walker: That's because you don't understand me. That was my language I was speaking.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): I wish I could understand your language, but I couldn't hear it either.

Mr. Frank Walker:

[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in his native language]

That is how my grandfather would have told you, my great-grandfathers. I speak to the grandfathers, the spirits, almost weekly. And before I came here, if you may listen, I had a dream. I didn't understand that dream. Now I understand it, listening to these people here.

The dream started when the Spaniards...the way they used to dress, with their silver helmets, and one was carrying a big sword. He went over to the little boy, who was wearing this medicine pouch. The Spaniard swung his sword right across his chest, cutting his medicine pouch in half. The people grabbed half of that medicine pouch.

There were two canoes carrying that medicine, running away from something, or rushing to something—I could not remember. They came to an island. It looked like it was made out of bone. Inside the bone there was water. That's where they rested. But this person, this warrior, who was carrying this medicine pouch, said he could not go on any longer. He was dying. He told me to come to him. He passed me that medicine pouch. As soon as he passed that medicine pouch to me, he turned into a bear.

Our belief in Nishnawbe is that the bear carries that healing. He has the healing power to heal the Nishnawbe people. As I took that medicine pouch, the grandfather spirits told me to run.

[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in his native language] They called me Earth Runner.

• 1755

So I started running. I came across a lake and said “I cannot run this”.

[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in his native language] They said, “You can run across the water”, so I ran across the water, across the land, and I got to my destination. When I got to my destination, all I could see were trees cut down. All I could see was just soil empty of plant life. As I sat down and started crying, a big gash opened on my chest. This was a slice from the knife that was given to the little boy.

If you know this dream, you know what I'm talking about. If not, then I pray that you open your eyes to the Nishnawbe people who are really close to the omahmakhkee, to the earth and to the spirit world. We need these medicines that are provided for us by the Creator. It was not meant to be held by a company or another person. It was meant for everybody to use. The Creator hid it in many places and the only way you can find out what the medicine is is to be told by the spirits of the grandfathers.

I am glad I am one of those persons. But I am very hesitant to use these medicines because I know some big company will want to use part of those medicines. But I know some of these medicines will not work in other people's hands, other than the Nishnawbe people, because the way the medicine works is by the grandfathers giving you the right to use the medicine. Along with using that medicine comes a prayer, and those two have to be combined together in order to work.

[Editor's Note: Witness continues in native language]

As my great-grandfathers told me, this is the way it's done. This is the way it was done for thousands of years and it hasn't changed except by the people trying to impose laws to change our lifestyle.

[Editor's Note: Witness continues in native language]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much. I wish I could understand the first words you said, the words you said your grandfather and great-grandfather would have said to the committee. We were able to hear them clearly. Do you want to give us a translation of what those words were?

Mr. Frank Walker: I did.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

Is there anyone else who wants to present? Has Henry Wilson presented? So have we heard from all of the presenters, Frank Whitehead as well?

Mr. Henry Wilson: Frank Whitehead was called in for jury duty. He couldn't make it, but maybe he can write something up.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Yes, would you tell him he's very welcome to submit in writing to the committee.

We do have some time for questions now, so I'll begin. Dr. Hill.

Mr. Grant Hill: I think I'll pass, thanks.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Mr. Myers.

Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all to Deborah, I wanted to thank you for the gift of sacred tobacco, for what it is, for what it represents. I am grateful to you. I appreciated that.

Deborah, partway through your presentation you said you were excited in terms of this committee and what it might be able to do, and you thought that in fact it might make more healing strategies available. Then you alluded to the fact that you've become disillusioned and you don't see that happening. Then you went on to say that you really want indigenous people exempted.

I wonder if you could elaborate a little bit on what you meant when you said you thought that there would be more healing strategies available to people.

• 1800

Ms. Deborah Amey KiiskeeN'tum: When I initially heard about the committee and had discussions with other people who were making presentations, one of the things that was talked about was that things like homeopathy and naturopathy, which are much more culturally parallel to a lot of aboriginal healing practices, might become more accessible and more available to people.

However, as I began to research and look at what all the companies, the groups, the pharmaceuticals and all the people were saying you needed to put in place for legislation, there didn't seem to be a whole lot of room in that for any accessibility, only a whole lot more legislation and a whole lot more of taking things away from first nations people.

I know the committee has a whole lot of room and discretion in regard to that, but I'm just not sure that people are really aware of what those recommendations—which you've been given in all those high-powered and money-sponsored presentations and all the things that you've been given—could do to first nations peoples. So my focus shifted to being more about what harm might be done rather than what good could come out of it, because I didn't see anyone there speaking out against what I thought could happen.

Mr. Lynn Myers: Can you elaborate in terms of what you see us doing or what you want us to do?

Ms. Deborah Amey KiiskeeN'tum: I'd really like to see the things around aboriginal peoples left in the hands of aboriginal peoples, and I'd really like to see each community in first nations being allowed to determine those things.

I'd like to see some of the provincial and federal health care dollars used to allow people access to things like reiki, acupuncture, homeopathy and naturopathy, where people don't have access to their traditional healers or where those things don't exist any more.

In many of our communities very few of our elders hold those things in their hands any more, so there are places where it's really close to being gone. We're working really hard in a lot of the communities to bring those things back and to bring young people into it. I know that in Swan Lake one of the things they wanted access to was homeopathic treatments, and they wanted to have that covered under either their provincial or their treaty entitlement, but that's not currently available.

Those kinds of recommendations would be very helpful and very healthy, in my opinion. But I really lost sight of that because of the horrific things I saw being put before the committee and because everybody is assuming they have the right to take away from Indian people what belongs in Indian communities.

Mr. Lynn Myers: Thank you very much. I wish we had more time, I really do, because you raise a number of good points, as do the other presenters.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I also want to thank you all for taking the time to appear before our committee and for your gift of sacred tobacco. I certainly appreciate your frankness here this afternoon, and I think it helps us to keep things in perspective.

Here's how I hear what you're saying.

First, you are interested in seeing all of us take a broader approach to health care and take a look at holistic models of health care to pursue wellness and prevention, as has been a part of the tradition of first nations communities. And I think your comments need to be included in our overall approach. Just as we learned previously from those professionals in the field of homeopathy, we need to start broadening our horizons about how we define health care, about what's covered and what isn't and about how open we are to new approaches, or in fact, to very old approaches that have been taken over by more traditional, conservative forms of medicine.

I'd like to hear a broader comment from you on what we could do as a committee in terms of pursuing that whole vision.

Secondly, with respect to traditional medicines, can you tell me if you have any sense that the medicines you use, that your traditional healers use, are being eroded, that there's been an erosion in that field by outsiders trying to market your products? Have you seen those medicines appear in bottles on the shelves in the drugstores? Has there been a move to capitalize on the traditional healing methods and to sell that practice and those medicines more broadly?

We certainly heard, just this week, from people commenting about what's happening in Mexico and how there has been such horrible treatment, like bad harvesting practices and exploitation of the indigenous peoples, in order to serve these giant corporations, in order to help them sell these products and make a buck.

• 1805

I'm wondering if you're experiencing any of that, and I'm wondering how we can work to ensure that you're able to keep hold of the control over traditional healing practices and medicine. Related to that, of course, is the question of how we can ensure that this whole area stays within the domain of the first nations communities in terms of sovereignty and self-government.

Mr. Larry Dorion: Here's what I would like to say to that. Back home where I come from we have a lot of sweetgrass. It grows just south of where I live. We've been collecting sweetgrass there for many years and there's always plenty of it. The supply never runs low. However, in the last five years or so, they have been harvesting that sweetgrass in order to sell it into the States. They braid it and they sell it in the States. They take it out by the semi-trailerload.

Their harvesting practices are not like ours. We have a certain way of harvesting things. We don't just take and take until there is nothing left, because if you take until there is nothing left, there is no more seed left so that the sweetgrass can grow again. It's all gone, and now, when we go to these places where we used to go, where there was always sweetgrass, we find lawns, bareness, nothing. They sell our sweetgrass in the States for $15 a braid.

This is just unacceptable to us because it is one of our most sacred medicines, yet it's being sold across the counter without any consultation whatsoever with the first nations peoples.

These are the things we have to deal with. Normally you would never get a character like me to come and speak at a place like this. I don't do that. I do everything in my own ceremonial lodges. I do things in my own way. I have my own medicines. And I'll be honest with you—I will never give up my medicines.

For one thing, they are too complicated. By the time you've finished patenting everything that I do and use, you may be there for 100 years, because each medicine has four different aspects. Those different aspects work into four different aspects of another medicine, and those have to work with four different others, and it just goes on continuously for all the different ailments that are out there amongst the people.

We are very good at what we do. In my lifetime until now, I think I've seen only seven people who we have lost, people who have been terminal and were sent to us by medical practitioners. Out of all of those people who are sent to us...and I figure an average—at my home, anyway—is 10 to 15 a week, people I have to deal with, and at times it's 50 to 60 people, depending on what's going around at the time.

I've only seen, with all the medicine people I know—and I know many—the loss of maybe seven lives. We could not help them because their insides were too rotted out. They kept them too long on their chemotherapy and they kept them too long with their different pokings that they do to them. You see, amongst traditional people we don't believe in cutting anything off or cutting anything out. We believe that if there's life in that organ we can fix it; we believe we can repair it by using our herbs and a combination of herbs.

Also, I believe there was a study done in the sixties—I don't know the exact date—at the University of North Dakota, by a fellow named Carl Whitman, who is deceased now. In that study, if I remember him correctly when he spoke to me—and this was quite a few years ago—he had discovered that there were over 140 medicines sold across the counters today in drugstores that had at one time been given by our own people to others.

Our people were a people of sharing. We always wanted to share things. We always wanted to help another individual.

Here's an example of what happened to our people. Have you ever seen that movie The Medicine Man, with Sean Connery? Sean Connery goes into the jungle in South America and says, “I have discovered a cure for the plague of the 20th century.” “I have discovered it,” he says. But meanwhile, the one who really discovered that plague cure was the little pygmy medicine man. It was his medicine, but he didn't even exist to these people.

I exist. My people exist. And we will not let this happen. All that will happen if you try to regulate our medicine is that we'll go underground and you'll never see us again.

• 1810

I say we should try to work together. If there has to be a policy, then let us deal with that policy. Let us govern ourselves. We know how to do it.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much. There's one other person who'd like to ask a question, Ms. Bradshaw, and then I would like to ask a question as well if there's time.

Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw (Moncton, Lib.): Deborah, I want to thank you for the tobacco also, and I want to thank all of you for making a presentation today.

I'm a great believer in what you believe. I have an eagle feather on rabbit skin in my home, and I was given that as a gift from one of your children.

Do you have any contact or do you meet with the physicians within your community or in Manitoba? Do you have any contacts at all with them and are you discussing what you said to us today with them?

Ms. Deborah Amey KiiskeeN'tum: Yes, as a matter of fact, Turtle Island, the organization I work with, just recently brought someone else on board who is a physician who has worked all over the world in places like Bosnia and Africa. He's very keen on networking with other physicians. We just had a meeting last week around how we are going to work with the physicians in the communities.

Turtle Island provides counselling and family therapy services, training and education programs and a range of services in first nations communities upon their request for us to come in to work with them to develop community mental health programs. In every community we work in, we try to work very closely with the physicians.

Mostly the physicians have been really supportive, although not always. We do run into places where the physicians who come into Manitoba often don't have the cultural awareness, don't understand English, and can't communicate clearly with people whose first language isn't English. They're trying to communicate with someone else who has a very poor grasp of English because he or she came from Africa. So we do a lot of informal work in developing relationships and providing that liaison between the person seeking medical advice, the physician and the traditional healers.

We've done workshops for health care professionals, for nurses. My own background is in psychiatric nursing. I started working there twenty-some years ago when I graduated, and to my astonishment, even though I partly knew this stuff didn't work when I worked in the mental health field, I found the things that did bring healing were the ceremonies, the medicines and the ritual healing practices. The psychotherapeutic model was not effective for aboriginal people. So I started to work more and more. In my paid life, when I'm not doing non-paid things, I work as a family counsellor and therapist with families to provide healing and find ways to access what they want from their specific culture.

I need to make the point that there are many different ways our cultures are played out in many different communities. Just because we're first nations communities doesn't mean we have the same healing practices or the same beliefs about things. I have been really blessed in working with Frank and a number of other healers over the years. We try to find the common ground where we can work together, and that includes working with physicians, nurses, the community mental health workers, the NNADAP coordinators, and anyone coming in to provide service.

The frightening thing is that the amount of government policies and regulations that are put in place and the current policies of places like the medical services branch really severely limit people's access to both traditional healing and clinical counselling and other services, and they become more and more restrictive every year. They become less and less available and less and less accessible. I know there's a practical reality to that, but I'm really concerned this may just be another way of limiting things if we don't get a good team approach.

My grandmother always said that if we're all holding hands, we're too busy to throw stones, and if we're holding hands and working together miracles can happen. I'd like to offer that whatever I have that will be of assistance to the community and whatever our organization has, we will share with you and hopefully with other first nations to find a way to do this as a team rather than as the government imposing another set of rules.

• 1815

I really appreciate what Larry said about the medicines. They can't be legislated. They're not going to work for drug companies in the same way as they work for Indian people.

I too have seen the desecration. One of my elders is 78 years old. He grew up in McIntosh, Ontario, and he harvested wiccee—it's a wild ginger—in his back yard all of his life, as did his father and his grandfather. There's none left, it's gone. Now we have to travel three and a half hours to find a place where we can go to harvest the little bit that we use, because people came in and took that and then went to the market to sell it. Granted, I know they need to feed their families and sometimes that's all that's available, but they weren't taught by the elders on how to harvest it in a good way and to leave some behind. They took it all, and now there's no more in that whole lake. I'm really afraid that's going to happen with a lot of our medicines and they won't exist any more.

Thank you.

Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw: Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): I, too, would like to thank you for the pouch of sacred tobacco, but I'm wondering what we are supposed to do with it. Do you wear it? Do you carry it in your pocket? Do you put it in your drawer? It's a wonderful gift, but I would like to know how it works.

Ms. Deborah Amey KiiskeeN'tum: It works in whatever way makes sense for you when you listen to your spirit, when you listen inside. Some people choose to wear it. Some people choose to give it back to Mother Earth. Some people choose to put it in a place where it can be respected in their home. My invitation to each of the members is to listen to your spirit, to listen to that still voice that we so often forget, and honour whatever that is for you in a way that makes sense for you. What makes sense for me is my way, but you have your own. One of the things I think we've lost between our peoples is to honour our own ways while respecting each other's difference and valuing the sameness.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much.

I also heard your request to allow for a self-governance model. Whatever the committee finally decides, would your model be an opting-out provision, providing that the bands themselves were regulating? You also said you did feel there should be some regulation. Could you give us an idea of how you see that working? Would it be an outright exemption in the legislation, or do you think there should be a requirement that the bands themselves have in place an alternative method of governance and regulation?

Mr. Larry Dorion: One of the things I'd have to say right now is that this has come as a surprise to me anyway, and maybe to the people around me. I only heard about three weeks ago that this was going on. So I would have to say to you that we need time to come back to you on this. Perhaps we can do it by gathering together and by going from place to place to ask the various communities and various traditional leaders who are out there—the healers, the spiritual people—what they think of all this. The ones I had time to contact before this time—and it wasn't very much time—all agreed that we should form an alliance, that we should do something to govern what is happening to our medicines.

Obviously there is something wrong if people can go into a place with a total disrespect and total lack of understanding of the medicines, can take them, can strip the land clean of them, and can then go and sell them in a marketplace. Obviously they don't have any understanding of our morals, our values and our culture. And that doesn't necessarily mean they're non-Indian. They could even be native people, because our people have lost a lot of what they used to be.

This is a serious matter right now, and we're working at this in a preventative sort of way. We're trying to instil back into our youth what is and what was once theirs, and that is an identity. I believe that if we can instil this identity back into our youth, we will eliminate this problem that we're having today with our young people forming gangs and our young people going everywhere and basically causing a lot of problems. If we can instil this into our youth, eventually they will grow to adulthood and will start to work towards healing their parents.

It all starts with our youth. For some of us old guys, it's pretty hard to change our stripes, right?

• 1820

I didn't answer the question.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Well, yes, you did, and it's very legitimate to ask for more time.

One of the things the committee's been concerned about is that we have not heard a lot from the native communities. We'd like to hear more, and we'd also like to have your suggestions on how you would like to see this self-governance regulatory model work, because we also know there are concerns in the native communities for those who present themselves as healers but may not be healers and those who are distributing medicines that may be harmful to your people.

Certainly to suggest that we have lots of time would be unrealistic, but the committee will make note of your request for additional time, and if, before the end of our deliberations, you would like to either submit something in writing or make a request to the clerk, if there's time, we would be very happy to hear from you again.

I'd like to thank you today for participating in our hearings and sharing your thoughts with us. It's been very helpful. Thank you very much.

The 15-minute bell is ringing. There's a vote in the House.

Deborah, did you want to say something?

Ms. Deborah KiiskeeN'tum: I just wanted to add that there has not been enough getting the word out to first nations peoples about what might happen with the stuff that's been presented to you guys before and with the concerns we've shared here. I've been really astounded. I found out about it quite by accident because of my involvement with the homeopathic clinic and with Dr. Neilsen and some of the people there. That was the only way I knew anything about it.

It hasn't been published, at least not that I'm aware of, in Indian newspapers. It hasn't been published in first nations band offices or Indian health centres. The committee needs to take a look at how they can get that out in a better way to the people who need to hear it.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Elinor Caplan): Thank you very much. We will look into that.

The committee stands adjourned.