[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Friday, November 1, 1996
.1447 
[English]
The Chair: Order. We've changed hats here. We're dealing with Bill C-27, an act to amend the Criminal Code on child prostitution, child sex tourism, criminal harassment and female genital mutilation.
We're pleased to have with us Noreen Waters from the coordinated law enforcement unit, where she holds the rank of detective.
Welcome. We understand you are, unfortunately, quite an expert on this problem.
Detective Noreen Waters (Coordinated Law Enforcement Unit, Vancouver Police Department): I don't know if that's something I've always wanted to be an expert in, but it's come to that.
The Chair: ``What do you want to be when you grow up, little girl?''
Det Waters: Right.
The Chair: Thank you for coming. We have your brief. We'd like to hear from you, and then I know we'll all have questions.
Det Waters: Thank you, Madam Chair, and members of the committee. I appreciate this opportunity to speak to Bill C-27.
To give you some of my background so that you understand where I come from in speaking to this issue, for the past twenty years I have been a member of the Vancouver Police Department, and for the past four and a half years I've been a detective. I'm now assigned to the coordinated law enforcement unit.
Since July 1992 I have been involved in investigations relating to pornography, focusing those investigations on child pornography, child sexual abuse and child sexual exploitation. I've participated in numerous interviews with local and national media, made presentations to numerous community groups and conducted lectures in more than thirty training sessions relating to child pornography, prohibited pornography and pedophiles.
In 1993 I participated in hearings held by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice, both in Vancouver and in Ottawa, relating to the then proposed changes to the child pornography legislation. Bill C-128 was declared law on August 1, 1993, amending child pornography legislation to include offences of possession, importation and the electronic transmission of child pornography, and amending the definition to include publications that advocate or counsel sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen.
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I've received volumes of information from enforcement agencies, as well as private citizens, relating to child pornography. They in turn have identified international organized groups of child pornographers. These groups utilize the full spectrum of the various media, such as computer and satellite transmissions, printed word, hard-copy photographs and postal communications.
I've really expanded my expertise through consulting with other experts in the field, both in Canada and the U.S. That includes police investigators, both provincial and federal; customs and postal investigators; district attorney investigators; and psychologists and therapists. I've read research reports and articles regarding child sexual abuse and child pornography and have interviewed persons who molest children. I've also attended workshops on collateral evidence relating to pedophiles and pornography, presented by Dr. Peter Collins of the Clarke Institute in Ontario. He's an expert in paraphiliac, or sexually deviant, behaviour.
To aid in the development of this legislation under Bill C-27, I have forwarded research and operational documentation to the Department of Justice in Ottawa.
The passing of this bill will have an impact on existing child pornography legislation under the written word. The current definition states that the written word must be publications that advocate or counsel sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen, which would be an offence under this act. There's been a defence raised that if the offences relate to acts outside Canada, then it is not an offence under this act, which is in Canada under the Criminal Code. This is a loophole in the existing legislation under the written word.
This is actually borne out in a file I investigated over 1994. It was a year-long investigation of a male who was producing in Vancouver a newsletter on sex in southeast Asia. He was distributing that newsletter worldwide. The charges were stayed in relation to the offences under the child pornography legislation. The prosecutor stated that the male was writing about sex with young girls outside of Canada, which would not make it an offence under the act in Canada.
This male's publication, Asia File, is now being distributed out of the U.S. After we investigated him, he moved his business down to California. He's distributing from there, but he's still distributing into Canada. In January 1996 customs detained several copies of Asia File. This is what the publication looks like. I've given you excerpts from the publication.
Publications 3 and 8 were being delivered to a male in B.C. from the U.S. In Asia File number 3, the April 1994 issue, on page 8 the writer describes being offered a ``fifteenish'' virgin for $100. He remarked that he photographed another virgin who looked thirteen or fourteen. He declined to have sex with the girl, stating in part - and I won't use the common term for sexual intercourse that he has used in his publication - that having sex with her would have been far too expensive, and who wants the hassle of blood and pain? That's as much concern as he has for these girls.
He also states:
However much Asia File is honest about the erotic attractions for adolescent girls, we believe it is inappropriate to engage the barely sexually mature in prostitution. There's plenty of 15 year olds, where the editor draws the line for commercial sex.
As if it makes him any better by drawing it at that age.
- If this discussion offends you, we'll take this oportunity to say that he's also a believer in
retro-active abortion for censors.
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This material advocates sexual activity with a person under eighteen, but is it an offence under the bill? There are some who disagree and say that the intent of the child pornography legislation was not that somebody should write this. This is the problem we're having. They should be able to write about somebody outside Canada.
In the past two years Canada Customs has detained another three publications. One publication was detained in Vancouver. It's a 140-page publication entitled A Gentleman's Guide: The Erotic Women of Southeast Asia. I have given you some excerpts from that as well. The most recent detention was in January 1996.
On the title page is the heading ``Girls under 18: Where to find them'', so you know that the publication is going to give you the places you can locate them. On the précis page is the description of available under-age women that states in part: ``Southeast Asia: there's more'' - and I still won't use this common term for a woman's genitals; I'll say women - ``out there than you ever dreamed possible. Best of all, it's readily available to virtually anyone.'' That is, having sex. ``If you don't believe me, ask my old friend, `wheel chair' Tom, as we called him. He was the ugliest, 55 year old son-of-a-bitch'' - as he called him - ``I've ever known. If that guy could score 3 underage girls a day without even blinking, I have a feeling you'll do just fine.'' So he's encouraging people to go over there and pick up young girls.
There are numerous references to sex with under-age girls throughout the publication. On pages 11 and 12 there's a section entitled ``Underage Girls''. It instructs a person on how to get them into the hotel room without being caught by the police. He states, in part, to use the utmost discretion so you'll never get caught or hassled by the police.
Further on the writer describes in graphic detail sex with a fourteen-year-old prostitute. Throughout the publication these references are made to under-age girls. There's even a page of photographs with girls as young as fourteen. This material not only advocates but also counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen.
Would this be an offence under the bill? It's not the intent of our law to say that somebody could write about something outside Canada, but this is what this publication does. I know that the passing of Bill C-27 will firm this up so we won't have that loophole.
In 1993 I dealt with a male who was subsequently charged with a number of child pornography offences. He was first intercepted while coming through Vancouver International Airport. He had a large quantity of child pornography, including a number of child pornography videos. He was coming back from California. This material was produced by a distributor called International Wavelength out of San Francisco, California. The distributor has since been shut down by U.S. authorities and the owners have been charged with offences in relation to the distribution and possession of child pornography.
The majority of the boys appearing in the videos were young Hispanic males. Mexico is another location frequented by pedophiles and utilized by pornographers for the production of their material.
The male bringing the material into Canada went to great lengths to conceal it. He had the videos heat-sealed and wrapped to make them appear new and unopened. He also removed the reels and replaced them backwards so that they were reversed. When they were run, it didn't look like anything was on the material. He also replaced some with eight-millimetre film.
In 1995 another male was arrested in B.C. in relation to child pornography offences. He later admitted to molesting a number of young boys and was sentenced to time in custody. Prior to his sentence he wrote an autobiography, which he turned over to the arresting officer. He readily admits to travelling to southeast Asia and having sex with boys under, and mainly around, the age of ten. I've given you a copy of two pages from that autobiography. He is very explicit about what he did with the children and is quite open about his contact with these young boys.
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A male who has travelled extensively to southeast Asia is part of an ongoing investigation that began in 1995. He has sexually explicit photographs of Asian boys as young as seven years of age. He has also written disturbing and graphic sadomasochistic sex act stories involving boys as young as seven. Some of the writings also describe sex acts with young girls. He has written a number of books and published several about sex with boys in the Philippines and southeast Asia.
One of his books was critiqued by Watmough of the XTRA West newspaper, a gay and lesbian newspaper here in Vancouver. Watmough states in part that: ``This chatbook of 58 pages provided me with a host of unsettling thoughts. Its author is a self acknowledged and unrepentant paedophile - and much of its content reflects that fact.''
He comments that there is some literary strength, but continues by saying:
- There is something almost psychopathic about the indifference to reality permeating these
pages. After a certain coyness about the specific ages of his boys - something quite vital if you
make a distinction between a seven-year-old child and a fifteen-year-old youth - there is a
phony romanticism about the paedophilia aspect which brought me close to nausea.
This male is also very concerned about Bill C-27 and has written letters to the editor complaining about the fact that this legislation has gone before the House. He's very concerned that this might be coming in. One reason is that he produces material that advocates sexual activity with children under the eighteen.
Child pornography cases involve months of investigation when there are large seizures of evidence obtained during search warrants. The cases I have related today are just a few of the files in which persons whose sexual interests involve children are victimizing children who live outside Canada.
The children are not only victims in their own countries. When their images are reproduced and sold or traded among pedophiles and pornographers worldwide, the victimization continues. Many of the pedophiles are targeting younger and younger children in foreign countries, believing they'll be less likely to have any aid.
The vast majority of child pornography seized by Canada Customs that I have reviewed involves children from foreign countries, particularly southeast Asia. I can state that much of it may come in from Europe, but it still portrays Asian children.
Postal inspector Ray Smith, with the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, describes child pornography as one of the most heinous crimes. He further states that if there were no demand for this material by pedophiles, the material would not exist. He has just completed an investigation in which they did 120 search warrants across the U.S. Some of those searches involved information we had sent them on pornographers distributing out of Canada.
In recent weeks there have been a number of media programs and write-ups on the issue of sexual exploitation of children in third world countries. CBC recently ran an hour-long program on young girls sold into prostitution in India. I've given you an excerpt from a local newspaper regarding that program.
The Christian Science Monitor sent me something this week. I don't know who gave them my address, but I was pleased. It's an entire issue, which they told me was a compilation of several issues, called ``The Child Sex Trade, Battling a Scourge''. The entire publication is on that, including an article on sending girls from Vancouver around the circuit worldwide. I would like to have given you copies of it, but I haven't been able to get approval yet. I do have a number you can call to get copies of this publication. Perhaps I can give that to Richard Dupuis.
This past weekend 60 Minutes also ran a program on the U.S.-run sex tours to Asia, in which the victims are children.
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One of the producers of one of these publications says he is not a pimp. He really doesn't put the children into these brothels; he just writes a publication on where someone can go to pick up the children. The commentator said it's hard to differentiate, with his not calling himself a pimp.
We need Bill C-27 to stop Canadians who believe it is acceptable to travel to foreign countries and while there to victimize and exploit children.
As I stated before, the victimization continues when child pornography is circulated worldwide. In the U.S. and the United Kingdom, child pornography is considered evidence of child sexual abuse. Children, no matter where they reside, should be protected from abuse.
I really appreciate the opportunity to address you on this subject. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thanks, Detective Waters.
Mr. St-Laurent.
[Translation]
Mr. St-Laurent (Manicouagan): I have had a quick glance at Bill C-27 which I found very interesting, even though it is not the topic of our meeting. In any case, I must say that I was shocked by the stories you have told us. You are obviously very knowledgable about this and I have learned many things. What is happening here is really shocking. However, we have to look at the problem squarely in order to find appropriate solutions.
I was wondering if we should not include into Bill C-27 some clause that would allow us to prosecute businesses, companies and people who produce, distribute, directly or indirectly, or import and export this type of material. Do you think this would be advisable? Since I have just had a glance at the Bill, could you also tell me if there is any clause allowing for full prosecution of businesses?
[English]
Det Waters: The possibility of taking them to court falls under the child pornography legislation. Under the child pornography legislation there is a section for the written word. Someone who produces a publication that advocates or counsels sexual activity with children can be prosecuted. What we have found is that if we don't have this bill passed...where it says under the written word that it must be an offence under this act, it means it must be an offence under Canadian law. To have Bill C-27 passed will take away that argument. We'll have it there so we can prosecute persons who write material that tells someone to go to these locations in another country and molest the children. Virtually, that's what it is.
Some of them are very coy, particularly in Asia File. He is very coy in his wording of ages, but it is very clear that this is his intent. Of course, he says that fifteen is the age where he draws the line, but then he also mentions that she looks thirteen or fourteen, which makes it sound like it is better if she looks a lot younger.
Under our present child pornography legislation we could go after them, but the passing of Bill C-27 is what we need to be able to do that.
What the child pornography legislation doesn't cover under the written word is erotic stories. We're finding we come up against that in court. We'll get somebody who writes graphic, horrific stories of sex with children, but if they don't advocate it or counsel it, it's not an offence under the child pornography legislation. Yet it can be equally disturbing as, and some of it is more disturbing than, some of the other issues we've seen.
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You should know that Canada is one of the very few countries that has legislation about the written word. Actually, Africa is looking at passing that legislation as well. I hope that answers your question.
[Translation]
Mr. St-Laurent: Thank you very much.
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Ramsay.
Mr. Ramsay (Crowfoot): I'd like to thank you for coming in and giving this testimony. It is a very disturbing issue that the government is wrestling with.
If Bill C-27 passes, would my possession of this be an offence?
Det Waters: Yes, it would. It really is now. It is an offence already under the current pornography legislation to possess some of the material we have if it advocates sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen.
Mr. Ramsay: Within Canada.
Det Waters: Within Canada. We have it already under the child pornography legislation.
Mr. Ramsay: So if Bill C-27 goes through, according to your interpretation, it will also include writing about this type of activity outside Canada.
Det Waters: That's right.
Mr. Ramsay: Let me ask you about another part of Bill C-27 related to this - the trips that people from Canada would make to some of these countries. Being a former peace officer I found it very difficult to visualize the collecting of sufficient evidence to support a charge. We discussed this matter with the departmental officials when they appeared before the committee. How do you as a peace officer feel about that aspect of the bill?
Det Waters: Other countries, particularly Australia, have looked at various ways of gathering the evidence. They've done a great deal of work on this whole issue. The thing they looked at was getting it through satellite transmission from one country to the other, for the victim and for court purposes, doing videotapes of the statements or getting affidavits.
Sweden has already had a conviction under its legislation in relation to this type of sex tour or someone going to another country and molesting children. They actually brought the victim over to testify.
I'm sure there are going to be problems, but in fact with Asia File the person was a Canadian living in Vancouver. He was producing this material and distributing it around the world, telling people where to go to have sex with younger people. There's a market for it or he wouldn't have produced it. Customs has retained three copies of this material in the past two years, so what have they missed? What's gotten into Canada? They were able to detain three, but obviously more came in.
There are going to be problems in relation to evidence, but other countries are working through it and have had successes. Australia in particular has had successes, as has Sweden. So there are ways to get the evidence into court and be successful in prosecutions in relation to the material.
Mr. Ramsay: I have one final question to do with the motivation. Ms Torsney mentioned this morning that we wouldn't have teenage prostitution if it weren't for someone demanding it. That demand falls into all stripes and levels of society. What about the motivation in this particular area? In your experience is there successful treatment? First of all, do you consider it to be deviant behaviour, and is there adequate or possible successful treatment?
Det Waters: I can't answer whether there's successful treatment. There are people who have been treated and it has been successful, but we don't know if that's in every case. It is an addiction as well in a lot of cases with these people. Like an alcoholic or a smoker, you have to stay away from what is enticement, and the people who are successful in treatment say that's what they have to do. They just cannot have contact with children; they have to stay clear of them because that's where it draws them in. Whether there is successful treatment....
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Dr. Peter Collins, whom I spoke of, is extremely well versed in the areas of pedophilia and pornography in particular, and the use of it by pedophiles. They are driven. Any investigator I've dealt with...they are driven to get the material.
Ray Smith, whom I also spoke of, described them as night crawlers. In the U.S. there are night crawlers, which I hadn't heard of. They're some type of little insect that comes out of the ground at night. He said you hit the ground and they disappear, but after a while they come back up. That's how he described people who want this type of material on children. Something will happen. A whole group of people will be arrested, or there will be some sting operation in which they will deal with these people. They take pornography issues and child pornography very seriously in the U.S. But he said they will come back up again, and they'll go out there and try to get the material again.
I've found this in cases here. We've had repeat offenders. They have been arrested and prosecuted and then have received more material, and there have been further detentions by customs when they try to get the material in.
The Chair: Ms Torsney.
Ms Torsney (Burlington): Thank you for your presentation today.
One thing that's currently illegal in Canada, which people may not realize...and the reason it's not in this bill is that arranging for sex tours like this is illegal in Canada. One of the reasons we need this bill is that often the act of sex tourism takes place in a country other than Canada. Right now you don't have the ability to enforce the laws of Canada when the incident takes place in another country.
There are some who would like us to have this legislation not just for the commercial sexual exploitation of children, but also for any other abuse of a child. The problem is, of course, how do you prove that money changed hands or whatever else? What are your thoughts on that? How many cases do you think you'd be chasing down?
Det Waters: I would like to see it include sexual activity outside Canada with a child. In the case I've been recently investigating, the person would travel there and would befriend the family and then the children, and there's contact that way. So that is an issue.
It's like any pedophile here. A lot of them will get children - not every pedophile, but there is what is called a seductive pedophile. They will seduce a child no differently than will somebody who is seducing an adult. They will spend time with them, they'll speak to them, they'll take them places. There may never be an exchange of money or anything, but they will get the child to grow to care for them, and in fact the families will grow to care for them. Then an abusive relationship will start. The child will almost be willing to accept that for the attention they get. They also care for this person and don't understand the break-up.
I think a lot of the other countries that have passed legislation have included any sexual abuse of a child or sexual contact with a child, not just commercial sexual abuse of children. I think it would be very important if we could pass that in this legislation.
Ms Torsney: I'm quite prepared to make an amendment to the bill myself, so we'll see how it goes.
One other issue that's dealt with in part in this legislation, because it deals with child prostitution and pimping of children, is that whole environment. It's interesting that we're dealing with this right after doing the young offender stuff, because it is so related.
I wonder from your experience here whether you might be able to tell us if the situation is similar to what I understand is taking place in Toronto. People working with street youths are increasingly seeing or hearing from young people that they're being asked to engage in child pornography or in pornography that's transmitted around the world. Is that something you're concerned is taking place in Vancouver as well?
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Det Waters: It is taking place in Vancouver. In a case we investigated in 1995, that's exactly what a male in Vancouver had done. He went down to what they call the stroll, where the young male prostitutes were, and recruited them into pornography. He would take them to his home and then videotape them engaged in various sexual acts. Mainly it was boys standing and masturbating. He called them ``the boys of Vancouver''. He had several videos that he was distributing worldwide. He distributed through the U.S., across Canada and in Europe.
Eight people were targeted on what they called ``Project Special Delivery'', which is what Ray Smith was involved with in the U.S. They had been sent by our detectives in Vancouver; Detective Jim Maitland, who's since retired, did this file. He sent them the subscriber list of who he had been sending material to. They targeted eight of those people and have arrested and charged five of them with child pornography offences. This is what he was doing, recruiting the children.
There are other cases we've been recently investigating in which the young male prostitutes are being used for that purpose. As for the females, we have not found much here, but we may not have heard of all of it. I think quite often we forget about the boys. In a lot of what I've done, I found that a lot of the boys have been victimized as well.
Ms Torsney: How old are we talking?
Det Waters: The boys here in Vancouver who were used in the pornography that was distributed were as young as fifteen. There may be younger boys. One boy who was approached was thirteen or fourteen.
Even if these children get out of the trade, the material is still out there. The victimization never stops because that child knows the material is out there. Where is it going to show up? We know now it's through computers; many images are being scanned onto the computers and transmitted worldwide. That material is available on the Internet worldwide. That's the thing: the victimization doesn't stop even if the child gets out of the trade.
Ms Torsney: From hearing from people who work with street kids in Toronto - and I'm sure it's similar here in Vancouver - it also leads to drug use and property crimes and everything else. It's part of the whole environment. For the adults it's shocking how it is the same consumers. People who frequent child prostitutes, who use these sexually explicit materials, who take the trips - it's a small, hard-core group of people involved in a lot of the same activities, is it not?
Det Waters: Yes. In fact, in two of the search warrants we have executed in the last two years, the persons who were involved in child pornography also had large marijuana drug-growing operations on the premises. They admitted to having given the children the drugs as well. Of course, that lowers inhibitions, which is one of the things they utilize it for. In those two files we found they were also drug trafficking and running drug-growing operations in their homes, which were discovered with the child pornography.
Ms Torsney: Are there any other aspects of the bill that you're concerned about? Obviously you're a supporter of it. Is there anything else we need to change beyond the commercial aspect of the sexual exploitation?
Det Waters: No, I'll be pleased if it gets in and the legislation has passed. It will bolster a lot of what I've been doing in relation to child pornography. I know we can more readily deal with these people involved in molesting and abusing and exploiting children, even if they're not the abusers, even if it's exploiting through pornographers who are making it, distributing it and selling it.
Ms Torsney: You should know that the Minister of Foreign Affairs called it the worst form of child slavery, when we were at the Stockholm conference. When you really think about it in those terms, that's exactly what it is: the worst form of child labour.
Det Waters: As you know, the children who are recruited, particularly in Asian countries or poorer countries, already are coming from deprived backgrounds. There is no funding or they're in poverty and then they are recruited into this. Many of the young girls and boys think they're going to work in restaurants or some other area, but they're taken immediately and put into prostitution.
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The Chair: Thank you.
I was just checking with the clerk so that I could give you some idea of our schedule. You seem to be one of the people most interested in what we're doing. It appears we'll be dealing with the rest of this bill in the month of November. That means it could get out of our committee by the end of November and back to the House. Then all it has to do is get through third reading and the Senate. I think the chances are very good - I don't hear any screams of protest from the other parties - that you'll see this legislation very soon.
Det Waters: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us.
We are adjourned.