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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, November 21, 2002

0910

The Chair (Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.))

Dr. Sarah Kahn (Director, Animal Health and Production Division, and Deputy Chief Veterinary Officer, Canadian Food Inspection Agency)

0915

0920

0925

0930

The Chair

Mr. Mike Wong (Executive Director, Ecological Integrity, Parks Canada Agency)

0935

Mr. Greg Fenton (Field Unit Superintendant, Riding Mountain National Park, Parks Canada Agency)

0940

0945

0950

The Chair

Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

0955

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Mike Wong

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Greg Fenton

1000

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

The Chair

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis, BQ)

Ms. Sarah Kahn

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay

Dr. Sarah Kahn

1005

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Mike Wong

1010

The Chair

Dr. Sarah Kahn

The Chair

Dr. Sarah Kahn

The Chair

Dr. Sarah Kahn

The Chair

Dr. Sarah Kahn

The Chair

Dr. Sarah Kahn

1015

The Chair

Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, PC)

The Chair

Mr. Inky Mark

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay

The Chair

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay

Mr. Inky Mark

1020

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Inky Mark

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Inky Mark

Mr. Greg Fenton

The Chair

Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP)

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Dick Proctor

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Dick Proctor

Dr. Sarah Kahn

1025

Mr. Dick Proctor

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Dick Proctor

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Dick Proctor

Dr. Sarah Kahn

The Chair

Mr. Claude Duplain (Portneuf, Lib.)

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Claude Duplain

1030

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Greg Fenton

1035

The Chair

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Mr. Mike Wong

1040

The Chair

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Howard Hilstrom

Dr. Sarah Kahn

The Chair

Mr. Mike Wong

The Chair

Dr. Sarah Kahn

1045

The Chair

Mr. Greg Fenton

The Chair

Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Greg Fenton

1050

Mr. David Anderson

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. David Anderson

Mr. Mike Wong

The Chair

Mr. Larry McCormick (Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, Lib.)

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Larry McCormick

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Larry McCormick

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Larry McCormick

1055

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Larry McCormick

Dr. Sarah Kahn

Mr. Larry McCormick

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Larry McCormick

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Larry McCormick

Mr. Greg Fenton

Mr. Larry McCormick

The Chair

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay

Dr. Sarah Kahn

The Chair

CANADA

Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food

NUMBER 004

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, November 21, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0910)

[English]

The Chair (Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.)): Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee this morning is holding an information session concerning the occurrence of tuberculosis in the elk and deer herds in Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba. This issue was brought to our attention by our good member from Manitoba, Mr. Hilstrom.

This morning we would like to welcome to our committee Sarah Kahn, from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency; and Greg Fenton and Mike Wong, from Parks Canada.

I understand that there are two presentations of about ten minutes each. Following that, we'll begin our round of questioning.

Hopefully we will have more members joining us shortly. I understand that there is another meeting on this morning and that it has kept them a little bit late.

In any case, Sarah, will you be starting?

Dr. Sarah Kahn (Director, Animal Health and Production Division, and Deputy Chief Veterinary Officer, Canadian Food Inspection Agency): Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm pleased to have the opportunity today to address the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. I've been asked to attend as the director of the animal health and production division, and as deputy chief veterinary officer of Canada at the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, to talk about the measures we are taking to protect Canadians and Canadian livestock from bovine tuberculosis. These measures are necessary following several findings of the disease in recent years, in both wild and domestic animals in the area around Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba.

I'd like to begin by saying that after nearly a hundred years of effort and investment by Canadian taxpayers and Canadian livestock producers, all of Canada except for a small area of Manitoba around the park is now free from bovine tuberculosis. This hard-won status has many impacts. It provides public health benefits, it improves the productivity of livestock operations, and it contributes to the international marketing of Canadian animals and animal products. Importantly, it also protects free-roaming wildlife. However, we recognize that the recent findings of tuberculosis in wild elk and deer in the vicinity of the park threaten our ability to completely eradicate the disease from our livestock populations.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency is in the business of protecting the health of Canadian livestock, and we're taking aggressive and sustained action to detect, contain, and eradicate any spread of infection to livestock herds in this area. We see the need for a long-term strategy to eliminate tuberculosis from the diseased wildlife in the Riding Mountain area.

[Translation]

Today, Mr. Chairman, I would like to talk about the activities the Agency is involved in to restore the tuberculosis-free status of the livestock in the Riding Mountain are; to protect the tuberculosis-free status of the rest of Canada; and to contribute to the elimination of this disease from wildlife in the area. I will touch on the findings which have made these measures necessary. I will talk about our disease surveillance and eradication activities for farmed animals. And finally, Mr. Chairman, I would like to comment on our participation in the efforts of Parks Canada and Manitoba Conservation to address the problem of the diseased wildlife.

[English]

There have been three outbreaks of bovine tuberculosis in cattle in the area around the park since 1990: one near Rossburn in 1991, involving five herds; one in the same area in 1997, involving two herds; and one near Grandview in 2001, involving a single herd.

In December of last year, a cow from Manitoba was found with tuberculosis at routine slaughter. A thorough investigation of nineteen possible herds of origin for this cow was unable to identify an infected source herd. And even as we speak, another cattle herd in the Grandview area is being investigated as possibly being infected with bovine tuberculosis.

During the first of these outbreaks in 1991, a wild elk on a farm adjacent to the outbreak site was found to have tuberculosis. This was the first finding of tuberculosis in wild elk or deer in the Riding Mountain area. We conducted a local survey of hunter-killed animals in 1992 and found no other infected wildlife, so at that time we thought the finding was an isolated incident.

In 1997, the second outbreak in cattle in the same area raised concerns that wildlife could be a source of bovine tuberculosis. This led to a joint effort by the Province of Manitoba, Parks Canada, and the agency, to test elk, deer, and moose killed by hunters in the vicinity of the park. The survey has continued during each subsequent hunting season. To date, we've found ten infected animals—nine elk and one white-tailed deer—in the course of examining approximately 3,000 animals through five hunting seasons.

¿ (0915)

[Translation]

Prior to 2001, scientists believed the findings of tuberculosis in wild elk near the Park were isolated events that did not involve spread of the infection within the wild elk population, or to livestock. However, 2001 brought us a third outbreak involving cattle, as well as five of the nine positive wild elk findings and evidence of yet another infected cattle herd.

Together, these findings suggest wild elk in the Riding Mountain area probably acquired tuberculosis from infected local cattle herds at some time in the past; they are maintaining the infection and they are serving as a reservoir capable of spreading the disease back to cattle. Diseased wildlife in the vicinity of the Park are now believed to be the source of tuberculosis for the infected cattle herd found in 2001, and a cattle herd in the same vicinity which is currently under investigation.

[English]

A further development occurred in 2001. The United States made changes to its tuberculosis eradication program, in part to address their own challenge in Michigan, where wild deer are infected with tuberculosis and have caused infection in 25 cattle herds during the past six years. The U.S. has taken a more stringent approach to disease control and has extended this approach to major trading partners, especially Canada and Mexico. These changes led to the decision by the U.S. Department of Agriculture this year to require breeding cattle from Manitoba to test negative for tuberculosis before export to the U.S.

Last year, in response to these findings, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency initiated consultations with the Government of Manitoba and with industry, with the objective being to identify changes to be made to the national bovine tuberculosis eradication program, to protect the health of Canadians and Canadian livestock. Mr. Chairman, I would like to briefly describe the key elements of the national program.

Bovine tuberculosis is a reportable disease under the Health of Animals Act and its regulations. It has a number of serious implications, and Canada follows a strict surveillance and eradication program when the disease is found in cattle, farmed bison, and farmed elk and deer. The finding of an infected herd leads to a comprehensive investigation and to measures to eradicate the disease outbreak and to prevent spread to other livestock. In each confirmed case, all exposed, susceptible animals are destroyed and the owners are compensated; all animals sold or purchased are traced and tested; and animals on adjacent and nearby farms are also tested. These comprehensive measures have allowed us to virtually eradicate the disease from Canadian livestock.

[Translation]

However, the Agency plays a somewhat different role when tuberculosis is found in wild animals. It is the government of Manitoba and Parks Canada respectively which have the mandate to deal with the diseased elk and deer outside and within the boundaries of the Park.

Whenever bovine tuberculosis is detected in wild animals, the Agency tests all livestock in a 10-kilometre zone around the wildlife case. It was this strategy that led to the finding of the infected cattle herd in the Grandview area in 2001.

I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman, that cases of bovine tuberculosis in wildlife do not affect Canada's tuberculosis status, unless spread of the disease to livestock is found. Canada's tuberculosis status is determined by findings in farmed animals only.

¿ (0920)

[English]

As I previously mentioned, the agency consulted with the Government of Manitoba and industry stakeholder groups in 2001. Consequently, Mr. Chairman, we're implementing a number of measures that we believe are necessary to complete the eradication of this disease. The measures will improve our ability to detect infected herds in the Riding Mountain area and prevent the spread of the disease from this area to Manitoba and the rest of Canada.

We are amending the health-of-animals regulations to permit the establishment of a special Riding Mountain TB eradication area around the park. This area will encompass provincial wildlife management units 23 and 23A. It includes approximately 50,000 cattle on 700 farms, or about 10% of Manitoba's cattle. The rest of the province will be known as the Manitoba TB eradication area, and it will join the other Canadian provinces in having tuberculosis-free status. The Riding Mountain TB eradication area will be classified as tuberculosis-accredited-advanced, indicating a very low prevalence of infection in livestock.

These amendments to the regulations are expected to come into effect in early January 2003, at which time the province will be split into these two eradication areas. As a result of this measure, 99% of Canadian cattle herds will have tuberculosis-free status.

[Translation]

Secondly, we are testing all cattle and bison herds located in the planned Riding Mountain TB Eradication Area. This testing is being carried out by Agency inspectors at no cost to owners. In this way, we will be able to rapidly detect and eliminate any spread of tuberculosis from diseased wildlife to livestock in the Area, and minimize any disruption of normal livestock marketing chains.

Livestock owners are responsible for presenting their animals for testing and providing any assistance the Agency inspector may require. The 90 per cent of Manitoba's cattle and bison herds located in the tuberculosis-free part of the province will not be subjected to this herd testing requirement.

[English]

The goal through this accelerated surveillance testing is to provide for the earliest possible restoration of tuberculosis-free status for the area, and to protect the rest of Manitoba and other provinces.

Mr. Chairman, we anticipate that we will have completed at least one test of all the cattle and bison herds in the Riding Mountain TB eradication area by July 2003. The herds will be subject to periodic retesting by agency inspectors in future, and this will continue as long as tuberculosis is believed to be present in livestock or wildlife populations. We haven't yet established the appropriate interval for retesting. This will depend upon the results of testing in the first round and the investigation of findings. However, the interval between tests will not be greater than 36 months.

The third key element of our strategy involves containment. Beginning on the day that Manitoba is split into two eradication areas, cattle and farmed bison may only be removed from the Riding Mountain eradication area with a permit issued by the agency. This measure will minimize the risk of spread of tuberculosis from the Riding Mountain area to the rest of Manitoba and other provinces by way of livestock movements. We intend to maintain this movement control system for as long as tuberculosis continues to be found in livestock herds in the Riding Mounting TB eradication area.

¿ (0925)

[Translation]

All cattle and farmed bison originating from a herd which has been tested and found negative under the area surveillance testing requirement during the preceding 36 months will be eligible for a movement permit without additional testing. That is to say, a negative area surveillance herd test will also be a qualifying herd test for movement permits.

Until the first round of area surveillance testing is completed, some cattle and farmed bison from herds that have not yet been tested under this program will require a negative tuberculosis test of the individual animals being moved prior to the animal entering a tuberculosis-free area. This testing will be carried out by accredited private veterinarians at the owner's expense. However, Mr. Chairman, with the accelerated area surveillance testing campaign already underway and by scheduling the permit system to come into effect at a time when livestock movement levels are at their lowest, the Agency is making every effort to minimize the requirement for this individual animal testing.

[English]

Following the decision by the United States Department of Agriculture to require testing of breeding cattle, the agency has worked with accredited private veterinarians to ensure that the necessary testing is carried out in a manner that will least disrupt the marketing of livestock across the border. We have trained accredited veterinarians. We provide the tuberculin for testing free of charge.

I would like to also mention that the testing requirement should have minimal impact on Canadian exporters. Firstly, many importing states in the United States already require a test. Secondly, most of the cattle exported are not breeding cattle, and are therefore not subject to the requirement. We have estimated that the new requirement would affect perhaps 5,000 head of Manitoba cattle each year.

[Translation]

Once the Riding Mountain TB Eradication Area has been established, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency will be asking the US Department of Agriculture to review the measures that we have put into place, and to recognize Manitoba's split status for bovine tuberculosis. We will also request that the US revise its import requirements for cattle from Manitoba accordingly.

We are confident that once we demonstrate that bovine tuberculosis is contained and controlled in the Riding Mountain area, breeding cattle from the tuberculosis-free part of Manitoba will no longer be subjected to special testing requirements for export to the US.

Mr. Chairman, the Agency has consulted extensively with Manitoba Agriculture and Food and the Manitoba Cattle Producers' Association in the development of a Riding Mountain TB Eradication Area Action Plan, which is guiding the implementation of these measures that I have described. We have established a herd inventory and herd testing plan for cattle and farmed bison herds in the Riding Mountain TB Eradication Area. We have developed the requirements and mechanisms for the issuance of movement permits for cattle and farmed bison leaving the Area.

Furthermore, we have identified the resources required to carry out the herd testing and permit issuance activities in the initial accelerated phase ending July 2003 and in subsequent years.

Before concluding my remarks, Mr. Chairman, I would like to touch on the Agency's cooperation with our partners in dealing with the problem of diseased wildlife in the Riding Mountain area. Although the Canada Food Inspection Agency has no authority to prevent these wild animals from coming into contact with livestock, we participate in a number of working groups and committees, whose composition reflects the complexity of the issue and the various jurisdictions involved. Key among these is the Inter-Agency Wildlife Health Committee in which we participate with four other government departments or agencies - Parks Canada, Manitoba Conservation, Manitoba Agriculture and Food, and Agriculture and Agri-food Canada - and two stakeholder groups - the Manitoba Cattle Producers Association and the Manitoba Wildlife Association.

¿ (0930)

[English]

The committee has developed the Manitoba tuberculosis management plan to address this problem.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency is responsible for implementing the elements of the plan involving the at-risk livestock, which I've outlined to you. Parks Canada and Manitoba Conservation are taking the lead role in developing and implementing the unique strategies needed to combat this disease in wild populations. The CFIA is aware that the traditional methods of tuberculosis eradication, such as quarantine, testing, and slaughter, do not necessarily apply to wildlife.

Working closely with our partners, the agency contributes knowledge and expertise, provides laboratory testing services, and participates in research projects to bring the best possible science to solve this problem.

In conclusion, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is confident that the measures we are implementing will allow us to reach our goal of eradicating this serious disease from Canadian livestock, and it will safeguard our considerable achievements in national tuberculosis eradication. We will protect the tuberculosis-free status of the 99% of Canadian cattle and farmed bison located outside this area, and we will rapidly detect and eliminate tuberculosis in the 1% of livestock herds located in the eradication area, which will facilitate the early restoration of tuberculosis-free status.

Until such time as the underlying disease problem in the wildlife population can be resolved, the measures will remain in place to minimize the impact of future findings of tuberculosis in cattle in the Riding Mountain area.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I'm thankful for the opportunity to make the presentation to the committee, and I welcome any questions from members of the committee.

The Chair: Thank you.

Greg, are you presenting from Parks Canada, or is Mike?

Mr. Mike Wong (Executive Director, Ecological Integrity, Parks Canada Agency): I will introduce the topic, and Greg will present the detail aspects of the situation in Riding Mountain National Park.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. It's a pleasure for me, as the executive director of ecological integrity, Parks Canada Agency, to appear here with my colleague, Mr. Greg Fenton, the field unit superintendent for Riding Mountain National Park, to talk about the serious issue of bovine tuberculosis and its transmission to wildlife and livestock.

As a federal agency, Parks Canada's mandate is to protect and present nationally significant examples of Canada's natural heritage for present and future generations. The Parks Canada Agency is responsible for maintaining and restoring the ecological integrity of its system of national parks. In order to be successful, Parks Canada takes an ecosystem-based approach to management, and we work with partners within the regions where the national parks are situated.

One of the key indicators of the health of a national park is having a viable, healthy, and sustainable wildlife population, along with associated habitat. One of the key challenges to maintaining the health of a park is to manage the diseases in its wildlife species, so healthy wildlife remain a key part of the ecology of that park.

As Dr. Kahn described, wildlife disease in Canada and its transmission from wildlife to livestock, as well as from livestock to wildlife, is not new in Canada. These diseases have potential implications for human health, the agricultural sector, as well as the viability of native wildlife populations.

In addition to existing diseases, such as bovine tuberculosis, rabies, and mange, we're also very concerned about newly arrived diseases, such as chronic wasting disease, that we have heard about in the scientific literature.

As mentioned in the earlier presentation, these are very complex issues that require collaboration and innovative solutions. It requires cooperation among agencies with very different mandates and interests. These include the wildlife management organizations, agricultural agencies, as well as the stakeholders and the affected community. It also requires the information generated by our scientists, our wildlife biologists, our ecologists, as well as scientists from other organizations, such as the veterinarians and agricultural experts.

We're here today to present the findings from our studies on diseased wildlife in and around Riding Mountain National Park. But more importantly, Greg will be presenting the cooperative actions that are being implemented by government organizations and stakeholders, including individual farmers, in a joint effort to manage, in the short-term, the bovine tuberculosis issue, and in the longer term, to eradicate this disease in wildlife and domestic livestock.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn the microphone to my colleague, Mr. Fenton, to describe the situation around Riding Mountain National Park.

¿ (0935)

[Translation]

Mr. Greg Fenton (Field Unit Superintendant, Riding Mountain National Park, Parks Canada Agency): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to present to the committee information concerning tuberculosis in the Riding Mountain National Park area.

[English]

I have some photo presentations for you to follow, and Mike is going to put the slides up for the other people in the room who don't have the benefit of the visuals. We'll use those in support.

First of all, where is Riding Mountain National Park? It's in southwestern Manitoba, and was established in 1929. It's approximately 3,000 square kilometres. It was created to be, and is, representative of the southern boreal plains and plateau natural region of Canada. It also has representative examples of the Manitoba escarpment, or some of the hardwood forests that come in from the east.

It's part of a larger social and natural landscape in which agriculture, tourism, and recreation--both non-consumptive and consumptive activities--are the primary land uses. Because of the protected core area and those activities on the landscape, both social and natural, it became part of the Riding Mountain biosphere reserve that was established in 1985 under the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization's “Man and the Biosphere” program.

[Translation]

I'd like to give you an overview of the situation in the Riding Mountain Park area, from Parks Canada's perspective.

[English]

As pointed out by Dr. Kahn, since 1991 there have been three cattle herds in which bovine tuberculosis has been found. Also, ten elk and one white-tailed deer have contracted the disease. This is within a larger regional ecosystem that contains an elk population that historically averages about 3,500 animals. There are about 8,000 deer. Dr. Kahn pointed out that there are approximately 700 farms in the areas around the park, containing in the order of 50,000 cattle.

I should point out that these are not Parks Canada or park wildlife. They certainly utilize Riding Mounting as the core habitat, but they are part of a multi-jurisdictional landscape, and move fluidly back and forth into natural lands and lands that are used for agricultural and other purposes outside of the park.

The prevalence of bovine tuberculosis in wildlife has been determined to be low, and is in the range of 1% to 3%, depending upon how you geographically partition the area. This is based on samples that have been collected since 1997 from approximately 3,000 moose, deer, and elk.

¿ (0940)

The second critical activity, if you will, contained within the plan is that of control and prevention. So what is being done to address the complex and serious issues? One of these is a multi-jurisdictional issue, given the provincial, federal, municipal, and private jurisdictions on the broader landscape in the Riding Mountain region. As pointed out by Dr. Kahn, there is a federal-provincial working committee, established in 2000. Members of the committee comprise ourselves, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, Manitoba Conservation, and Manitoba Agriculture and Food. In addition, the Manitoba Cattle Producers Association and the Manitoba Wildlife Federation play a critical role, and participate very actively in the committee in providing critical advice and guidance to the responsible jurisdictions. A recent organization that has joined the committee is Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.

The committee developed a five-year management program called the Manitoba bovine tuberculosis management program, as highlighted by Dr. Kahn. It has been approved and resourced by all members of the committee. It has three goals: first, to achieve and maintain T.B.-free status in domestic livestock; second, to eradicate T.B. in wildlife posing risks to agriculture, while maintaining healthy, viable populations of the wildlife species within the regional ecosystem; and, third, to minimize livestock-wildlife interactions, and thereby the transmission of the disease between wildlife and cattle, or cattle and wildlife.

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to take just a few minutes to highlight some of the key actions or activities that are highlighted within the management plan, and for which the Parks Canada Agency is playing a key role.

The first key activity is monitoring and detection. The slide represents some of the testing of domestic livestock, including cattle, elk, and bison, for which the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has the primary lead or responsibility, and which Dr. Kahn has just outlined to you.

The second critical activity in the area of monitoring and detection came with the establishment of what is called the Riding Mountain Field Laboratory. It is a field processing lab located in Riding Mountain National Park, and is jointly funded and operated by ourselves, Manitoba Conservation, and Manitoba Agriculture and Food. Elk and deer samples are collected. It is a mandatory requirement for hunters to turn in samples, including heads, necks, and lungs, from all elk and deer within wildlife game areas outside the park, as highlighted by Dr. Kahn. These come into the lab, and the lab carries out preliminary analysis and develops databases.

If there are any suspect samples or red flag samples, as they are called, they are shipped off to Canadian Food Inspection Agency facilities for culturing to determine if indeed the suspect sample is bovine tuberculosis, or other strains of tuberculosis that are not as critical. Since 1997, as I pointed out, approximately 3,000 samples from elk, white-tailed deer, and moose have been collected and analyzed and gone through this laboratory in the park.

The third key monitoring and detection activity is that of aerial surveys. Parks Canada, with the assistance of Manitoba Conservation and Manitoba Agriculture and Food, carries out two different types of aerial surveys on an annual basis. The first is what we call a population survey to try to determine the relative abundance of elk and moose in and around Riding Mountain National Park. The second is a classified count to try to determine cow-calf ratios and sex ratios. This information is critical in trying to determine what the hunting or bag limits are, which are then applied by Manitoba Conservation for legal hunting activities outside of Riding Mounting National Park. This information will also prove to be critical in future years, as well as current years, in determining the success of the herd reduction component of the bovine management program.

¿ (0945)

The first activity related to control and prevention, which is a critical one to the program, is barrier fencing. The objective of the barrier fencing activities is to reduce the possible interactions between wildlife and cattle in areas where they tend to concentrate—around feeding areas, on producers' fields, or in producers' hay yards outside of the national park—and thereby reduce the potential for disease transmission between the two.

The key focus right now is on providing materials and erecting these barrier fences at hay storage sites on farms. The plan proposes—or there are potentially—250 farms that would benefit from the construction of these structures. To date, 30 have been constructed and have proven to be fairly effective. This is an area we hope to move forward on, because it is a critical part of control and prevention. If we can reduce the amount of interaction between livestock and elk, then we obviously reduce the possibility of potential transmissions.

The second control and prevention activity is that of regulatory amendments. Manitoba Conservation and Manitoba Agriculture and Food have been very aggressive in a number of regulatory measures, including the banning of baiting of wildlife for hunting purposes, and supplemental feeding purposes, outside of Riding Mountain National Park. In an attempt to reduce the current population of about 2,500 to 3,500 animals within the regional ecosystem, they've also amended the hunting regulations to allow for a larger take of wild elk and deer outside of Riding Mountain National Park. This activity complements the barrier fencing very well, in the hope of reducing potential interaction.

The third area of control and prevention is that of prescribed fire. It's being carried out by ourselves, the Parks Canada Agency, within the confines of Riding Mountain National Park. In addition to restoring the ecological role that fire has played in the natural ecosystems within Riding Mountain National Park, the objective here is to try to enhance the habitat available to elk, thereby encouraging them to stay in the park for longer periods of time during both the summer and winter months.

The third activity area is that of research. If there were answers to many questions, it would assist all parties involved in this program in determining more effective management solutions on the ground. I'll just highlight a couple.

An elk movement and distribution study is currently trying to determine where the animals move within, outside, and adjacent to Riding Mountain National Park. What are the group sizes? What are the land-use patterns within the Riding Mountain ecoregion? It's a five-year study involving the collaring of individual animals and those from within groups of animals.

The second area of study is the agricultural activities assessment. It tries to examine management practices on agricultural lands adjacent to the park, associated with the presence of, and/or use by, elk and deer in these areas.

There are a number of other studies, as well, including things such as predator-prey relationships, elk habitat suitability, and the social importance of wildlife to the residents within the regional ecosystem.

All of these activities are being sponsored by the Parks Canada Agency, Manitoba Conservation, and Manitoba Agriculture and Food. There has been significant support, including some financial support, from organizations such as the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and the Manitoba Wildlife Federation.

[Translation]

And lastly, Mr. Chairman, we have activities such as communications and education.

[English]

The second, and critical, cornerstone of the program is the objective of providing timely and credible information on the status of bovine tuberculosis to people within the Riding Mountain area. What are the management actions being taken, and what are the potential impacts on the cattle industry and wildlife within the regional ecosystem? It's an ongoing program and it's certainly targeted at a number of organizations, including the Manitoba Cattle Producers Association, who have understandable concerns, and also other industry groups. The Manitoba Wildlife Federation is another targeted organization. The open community meetings that are utilized are also targeted at local area residents and rural municipal governments.

Other types of fora are in the works and are planned to ensure that the timely information is available and to ensure opportunities for the public at large, and also the associations and interested parties, to provide input to the development and implementation of the plan.

A website is under development in partnership with the Riding Mountain Biosphere Reserve Committee. We have joint press releases on the management program that are in the works, multi-agency press releases, and we hope to have some brochures and copies following the press release of the 2002-2003 implementation plan for the program.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, Parks Canada has responded and will continue to respond to the threats that tuberculosis poses to both the ecology in the regional ecosystem and also to the socio-economic well-being of the residents of the region.

As my colleagues have pointed out, and as is agreed by all of the organizations who are participating on this interagency committee, there is no simple solution. The resolution of the issue is a shared responsibility. As agreed by all members of the interagency committee, it's not a simple matter of going out and eliminating the deer and the elk in the regional ecosystem. The focus needs to be on a management program that attempts aggressively to separate the cattle and wildlife, reducing the elk population to lower densities so that there will be less likelihood of interaction and thereby transmission between wildlife and cattle and/or cattle and wildlife.

The program and the continued focus will also be on maintaining open lines of communications in working with the producers, working with local residents, our federal colleagues within CFIA, and also Agriculture Canada and the provincial government of Manitoba.

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to share some of this information with yourself and members of the committee, and we'd welcome any questions that you or members of the committee might have for us at this time.

¿ (0950)

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Fenton.

Howard, I guess you're ready to go.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That was a very well done presentation on the part of all of you folks there. It's factual and accurate.

I think there's some dispute about the number of 3,500 as being the size of the herd there. I think it's entirely possible that it's much larger. Can you guarantee that there are only 3,500 there, Greg?

Mr. Greg Fenton: No, I can't guarantee it, but the historic average based the annual surveys that have been done is about 3,500 animals. Historically, or at least since annual population surveys were done back in the late 1960s, early 1970s, it's found that the herd fluctuates anywhere from about 2,500 as a low to about 5,000 as a high. But based on the last two years of population studies, it's about 3,500 plus a confidence level that's....

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Thank you. There's only one part of the plan that's going to have any immediate effect on reducing the incidents of tuberculosis getting out of this wild herd into the cattle, and of course it comes from that contact whichever way.

You've given the figure of 3,500 and you want to reduce it to 2,500. What is the date that this will be done by?

Mr. Greg Fenton: I'm not sure, Mr. Hilstrom. Certainly the goal is to as quickly as possible reduce the population size to 2,500.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: The goal is that, but I know for a fact that what Manitoba Conservation has done is they've said they're giving the same number of licences out but they're going to allow each licence to take two elk instead of one. Many hunters and families don't want to have two elk because that's too much. I know they can donate the meat and all this kind of thing, but the hunting is not going to reduce that herd there.

I know the park has finally realized that their management inside the park has been wrong, that it hasn't allowed for any type of logging, any habitat improvement. They put out every little fire that starts up. So you are not managing the park according to the way nature and the ecology would have it done. I think the park has realized their mistakes and are now going to do that, but it still is not going to result in the reduction of those numbers, and that's one of the big things.

Greg or Mike, do you know the dollar value of the cattle industry in Canada and Manitoba as it pertains to exports and domestically? No, don't ask, I'm asking you guys. Do you know?

¿ (0955)

Mr. Greg Fenton: I know it is significant, but I don't have the numbers on the top of my head.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Well it's billions of dollars. We're talking about the life of farm families and ranchers, making a living in this country, and bringing in a lot of big hard foreign currency from other countries, which pays for our health care and our education here. That's why this issue is so serious and why we're holding hearings into it. As a result, that has to be done.

You talk about wanting to reduce the number of elk by hunting, and that this baiting law that you all agreed to and got the province to do is counter to reducing that herd. If you allowed baiting, more elk would be taken; those licences would all be filled, wouldn't they? I know you're going to say those bales are going to be contaminated, and then they're going to get fed to cattle. You only need to bait with one or two bales. After they've eaten, you burn those bales right away, and that fixes the problem.

Do you want to comment on that baiting?

Mr. Mike Wong: Perhaps just as a comment on this point, while reducing the size of the herd is one management action that is being advanced, I think many of the parties would agree that, as with any transmittable disease, the reduction of interaction is really the key. Promoting further baiting of wildlife, for whatever purpose, will lead to habituation of human activities, which will increase possible future interactions with livestock.

So I believe we have to look at the management strategy in a much more holistic manner. We have to look at the role of testing and surveillance of the disease. The reduction of interactions between wildlife and livestock through fencing is one of the key strategies--

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: If I can interrupt, the cattle ranchers of Manitoba aren't asking for the elk herd to be totally eradicated. On the beef cattle side, and the farmed elk and bison side, total eradication fixes that disease problem right away.

Greg, are you familiar with the Birdtail area there? That's known as TB alley to the ranchers in Manitoba because of all the contamination that has been detected in the herds and the elk. Why hasn't there been a total eradication of the elk habitat in that particular run? If you reduced those numbers by say 300, that would leave 3,200 elk still maintaining the integrity of the ecology there. Why aren't you eradicating them in the hot spots of tuberculosis?

Mr. Greg Fenton: The first reasonable steps have been taken to try to do that. There is recognition of those hot-spot areas, but we don't have a good understanding of the extent to which the animals move. So there are two or three different components to the strategy.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Who cares? The elk have TB right there in the hot spots. What do you mean you're worried about where they're coming from and going?

Mr. Greg Fenton: The hot spots are being targeted for the barrier fencing on farms in those areas. They're also being targeted as areas where additional tags are being made available, in the hope of reducing the herd, as a first step. There are also the baiting restrictions, albeit you have some contention with them. They're intended to try to reduce the amount of interaction. So those are the first three key steps to try to reduce population sizes, so the likelihood of transmission in those areas will be decreased.

We will continue to monitor the situation jointly with the other organizations that have responsibility in this area. If we aren't able to achieve the targeted herd reduction levels, or the barrier fencing mechanisms don't appear to be as effective as we hoped they would be--or other strategies--we will look at trying to come up with other types of strategies, and will certainly continue to talk to producers and associations.

À (1000)

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Thank you, Greg. Sorry to interrupt, but we're on a real time schedule. This chairman is a good one and keeps us tight on time.

My last question is to Sarah Kahn. You talked about guaranteeing periodic testing every three years. Are you familiar with the rancher who had TB, and when they went back three years later, he had contracted TB again? Would it not be better, in these 23 and 23A hunting areas, to have yearly testing, until this thing gets under control? It's not under control now; it's a disaster.

Dr. Sarah Kahn: I'm not sure if I'm familiar with this specific case. We've detected a herd in this recent round of testing that appears to be infected on the premises, and which was tested previously. When they were tested previously, it seems as if not all the animals were presented.

So I think the first thing I would say is that when we're working with the industry and the producer organizations, it's very important that people see that when you call for a test, you have to present all of the animals for testing. It's really important.

The idea is to do a blitz, in effect, by the end of June, to attempt to give all the herds one full test. We'll have a very much clearer idea of the magnitude of the problem at that point. We're confident we can do that thereafter.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Why would you set a target date of the end of June? Calving is finished by the end of May, or earlier. That's the only time you're going to get all of those cattle rounded up. If you put cattle out in the range there, you won't get all of those cattle back in the summer-time, in June, when you want to round them up again. So why wouldn't you set the target date of say the end of March?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: We will get them done as quickly as we possibly can. But in talking to the people who are involved—the farming community and others—and in looking at the resources available, it looks as though we can manage to test.... We've done about 10,000 already, and we're doing about 3,000 a month. We're being very careful to avoid any sorts of problems with animal welfare associated with the calving-down period. This appears to be the most feasible and practical thing to do, and it's supported by all of the stakeholders.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: Madame Tremblay.

[Translation]

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for their very enlightening and informative presentations. I have a first question.

Has it been clearly established that elk are responsible for the spread of tuberculosis? Has this been proven?

Ms. Sarah Kahn: Thank you for your question.

I would have to say that all of the available data would point to this finding. The problem exists not only in Canada but in the United States as well. The data currently available points to a problem in an area containing elk.

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: You mentioned that the US was also dealing with the tuberculosis problem. In looking at this particular map, is there any evidence to suggest that some elk could have migrated from the United States to Canada, or vice versa? Is it possible that some of the wildlife crossed over the border?

[English]

Dr. Sarah Kahn: I'm not quite sure of the question. Do you mean to ask if we're aware of wildlife movements between the United States and Canada?

À (1005)

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes.

Dr. Sarah Kahn: It's a possibility. But the evidence we have at the moment is that the problem in Riding Mountain is a Canadian problem. As far as I know, it's not associated with the free movement of elk between the United States and Canada.

Mr. Greg Fenton: If I could add a bit to that, the elk are probably not a potential vector of transmission between Canada and the United States. The population is pretty much contained within the Riding Mountain region and moves north to the Duck Mountains. If there is a vector of transmission within wildlife, I have been told it has the greatest possibility within deer—white-tailed deer, in particular—because of the densities of the population sizes of white-tailed deer, which probably do indeed move back and forth into the States.

If you recall, the point Mike was making about potential exacerbation or growing problems with bovine tuberculosis, and potentially chronic wasting disease and things like that, is the opportunity to move back and forth into the States is greater. But for now, I think the data indicates it's primarily within the wildlife in the Riding Mountain region. Don't rule out the possibility for movement into the States by wildlife, but it's probably by deer, as opposed to elk.

[Translation]

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: A first outbreak occurred in 1991, a second in 1997 and a third in 2001. Why did it take you so long, from 1991 to 2000, to take any kind of action? I'm tempted to be a little mean-spirited and to say that this only confirms people's impression of public servants, namely that they are slow to respond. As I see it, the response time was very long indeed. It took nearly 10 years for people to wake up and decide maybe they should do something. In the meantime, the situation grew worse. Had we taken measures immediately in 1991 to deal with several cases, the spread of the disease would have been contained somewhat. Why did it take 10 years to respond?

[English]

Dr. Sarah Kahn: I should really talk perhaps initially to the mandate of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, which is to look after farm livestock. We have a program for eradication of tuberculosis, with very specific actions.

So in 1991, when we found the infected herd at Rossburn, in addition to depopulating the herd, we shot a number of animals, around 200 animals, in the vicinity to look for cases of tuberculosis in free-ranging wildlife, and we didn't find any cases. So the feeling at the time was that was an isolated incident. With tuberculosis, it's a disease that takes a very long time to incubate in animals, and you can have cases turn up after a long time.

When we had a further case in 1997, we started collecting wild elk for testing more systematically, and we used this mechanism of hunter survey. But for the first five years we would find one or no animals in each survey, so there really wasn't evidence of a significant problem in wildlife.

It was really only in 2001, when we had another case, and simultaneously in that year we found I think five infected wildlife, that it became evident that there was more of a problem in the wildlife than we had suspected to that time. That, as my colleague has mentioned, is when we formed the group to bring all the stakeholders together to decide what action should be taken.

So in the wisdom of retrospect, it would be nice to have done more at the time, but we acted entirely consistently with the policies that have virtually achieved the eradication of tuberculosis from Canada.

Mr. Mike Wong: Perhaps I can also add to Sarah's comments.

In her presentation it was demonstrated that this particular disease in Canada is very rare, and in fact back in 1991, with the first detection, it came very much as a surprise to many in the organizations. In fact, the source of this disease, I believe most scientists would agree, was domestic livestock. But the caution here is that once it gets into the wildlife population it is a problem that is much more difficult to manage.

À (1010)

The Chair: Thank you, Madame Tremblay.

Dr. Kahn, just for the record, which way was the pyramid going in terms of the detection of the problems you found in the nineties? Was it a large number of domestic livestock and a small number of wildlife? For instance, was it one domestic animal and then you were going to the wildlife to look, or is it ten domestic animals that you found back in 1991, or 1997, or whenever? Can you maybe for the record...?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: As soon as we detect an infected herd, a number of actions are triggered. As soon as we find one infected animal, which is confirmed, the entire herd will be depopulated and all the animals tested.

I don't know exactly how many were confirmed with infection in the herd in 1991. There was one infected elk shot on or in the vicinity of the farm at that time, but we didn't have a lot of evidence of infection in wildlife. In the ten animals that we have detected in the decade, half of those have been in 2001 period. So early in the nineties, we perhaps had three or four infected elk over a period of some five years.

The Chair: How many infected domestic livestock?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: I don't know the exact--

The Chair: When you talk about a herd, it is my understanding that if one animal in a herd is detected, the entire herd is destroyed. But were there 20 infected animals in a herd of 100, or were they all infected?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: They wouldn't all have been infected--

The Chair: Just for the record, though, how many were infected? If a farmer lost 100 cattle as a result of being contaminated by the disease, I would think when you destroyed that herd you would have analyzed each of the animals. Now, was the entire herd infected, or was it 5% of the herd, 10%? Do you have any evidence in terms of...?

We have some students here, in fact, from the university today taking notes and going back, and I think we want to give a presentation of really what is the health.... Are we condemning the elk because of the livestock, or the livestock because of the elk?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: The key thing with bovine tuberculosis in a herd is that you will normally only find 2% or 3%, certainly less than 5%, of the animals that will test positive, because it's a slow disease and there's also the possibility that infected animals won't in fact test positive.

I can get the specific number of animals that were confirmed infected in each of the herds, but as a general comment I would say it's unusual to find more than perhaps 5% of a herd confirmed infected. Because of the limitations of the testing method, we have to slaughter all the animals and do an extensive post-mortem and a culture to confirm the status of each and every animal.

In a way, it's not that important. What is more important is the tracing of animals that have been introduced or have left the herd so that we can evaluate the extent of the problem. In 1991 we had no evidence there was a problem other than in this specific herd.

The Chair: In terms of our food across Canada today, all the slaughterhouses are on watch for this, and the only evidence we ever had of this in the last 12 or 15 years has been animals from this particular area of Manitoba. Is that correct, or do you find some in other places?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: No, that's not correct, because we do occasionally find TB elsewhere. For Manitoba, all the cases have been associated with the Riding Mountain area. So that's the extent of the problem for Manitoba as we know it now.

We have meat inspectors who specifically look for lesions suggestive of tuberculosis, and that is an effective system for finding the disease. It's used in all the developed countries of the world that are looking after this disease.

We comply as a country. We comply with the international standard for tuberculosis freedom, which is to say that 99.9% of the herds are free. So that's the international standard. However, we had a case of TB in a herd in Ontario this year, and we do get cases from time to time from other provinces. Manitoba is the only province where we've been obliged to change the status of the province as to TB freedom.

À (1015)

The Chair: Inky, are you ready for some questions? You're a good member of Parliament from Manitoba.

Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, PC): I'm not a Liberal.

The Chair: Now you're on the good side--

Some hon. members: Easy, easy.

Mr. Inky Mark: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome to our witnesses.

[Translation]

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Mr. Chairman, it was the Liberals' turn...

[English]

The Chair: It's my understanding, Madame Tremblay, that the Liberals have given up their time. That was what the parliamentary secretary and Dick and--

[Translation]

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Excuse me. C'est incroyable.

[English]

Mr. Inky Mark: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Greg, it's nice to see you here at the hearings.

Just to refer to my experience, I've been involved with this issue of bovine TB since 1997, since becoming a member of Parliament. My riding in Manitoba is where the impact is. To say the least, it's been a frustrating experience, not only for me as a member of Parliament, but for the producers and the municipalities. I can only speak from 1997. Back in those days an infection was detected in a herd in Rossburn, and it was eradicated.

The reason it is frustrating is exactly the question Ms. Tremblay asked: what have you been doing for the last ten years? Do you know what they did? I won't point fingers. The problem is the system. Parks Canada basically hid the problem. They wouldn't admit right up until the last couple of years that elk were the problem. The argument was where did the TB come from--was it from the cattle or from the elk? It was a constant argument as to which came first, the chicken or the egg. So that was part of the problem.

On that point I must also say that the provincial government is just as negligent in Manitoba when it comes to this whole elk business. In fact, they have a provincial park that's full of elk just north of the national park, and basically they haven't said a thing about the elk in that particular park. I at least commend Parks Canada for what they've done over the last couple of years in terms of setting up programs, working with the farmers, and also working with the province.

There is no excuse for departments and our federal agencies not being more responsible and accountable. If that issue had been dealt with earlier and in a more reasonable manner with the stakeholders, we wouldn't be at this juncture. I really believe that. In fact, right now I have three herds just north of Riding Mountain National Park under quarantine, three large cattle herds in Grandview. These folks know that.

There are lots of issues. In fact, one herd is part of a mixed operation with weanling pigs, so this farmer is asking--in fact he still doesn't know whether pigs get TB--what can I do with my pigs? He's producing weanlings, and they keep coming, so what's he going to do? He can't continue to feed them. He said his operational income is based on the weanlings he ships out every couple of weeks.

I have another issue about hunting. I had a constituent who, last spring after the elk season, had to go to get tests to determine whether he was positive. He checked out as positive from eating elk that had TB. In fact, one fellow I talked to last night had been out hunting and he said he'd shot an elk on a landowner's permit and the elk tested positive, but he said he cooks his meat well.

So there are added risks to this business. The province says, well, let's give out more licences and we'll shoot more elk. But the kill rate is so small, and as Mr. Hilstrom said, if you don't allow baiting.... Really, when you look at the percentage of kills, it's still pretty small.

It's still not dealing with the problem, and farmers are so frustrated. As you know, in Manitoba we have 1.5 million cattle, and it's still a problem. I still believe that there have to be better solutions found, whether it's a controlled kill to prove once and for all.... As you know, there are some farmers who say let's kill them all. Well, that's a pretty small minority, and no one would agree to that. The fact of the matter is that you have to try different solutions, and you have to try to prove to people whether they work or not. For example, if they had a controlled kill around the Lake Oddy area, maybe there would be benefits.

The fact of the matter is that we can't save every elk and we can't save every cow, but there has to be a better way to do this. I'm happy that at least you've started on the right path.

There are too many questions, even on the ownership of elk. The park says “They're our elk if they're inside our boundary; they're the province's elk if they're outside.” Well, they're moving all the time, literally night and day. In a 24-hour period they're going out to feed and coming back. Some don't like it in the park because of the environment, so they stay out.

À (1020)

The people in the area know all this kind of stuff. They live there. It's pretty obvious that they're not listened to, and we create a lot of problems.

Do you plan to consult again with the stakeholders down the road, maybe ask for more input, and come up with different manners of dealing with this? That would be my question.

Mr. Greg Fenton: Thank you for the question and also for the comments, Mr. Mark.

The answer as to whether or not we will continue to involve people in reviewing and adjusting strategies as required is a simple yes. As I pointed out, communications and active involvement in the industry by the people on the landscape is critical. We will certainly be taking advice. Once we have reviewed the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the strategies that are currently under way, we will be taking their advice in that review, and also the adjustments.

Mr. Inky Mark: Do you have a concern with the elk in the Duck Mountains?

Mr. Greg Fenton: Manitoba Conservation has instituted mandatory returns from all hunters in the Duck Mountains as well. They are included as a part of some elements of the research initiative, particularly elk movement. Yes, there is some potential concern there, and we're trying to quantify, first of all, how much movement, and then also if there is incidence through the sampling program, for starters.

Mr. Inky Mark: My concern is that the federal system is getting a bad rap for the elk, and the province is basically scot-free. When you look at the numbers, there's probably not much difference in terms of numbers inside our federal parks and provincial parks.

Mr. Greg Fenton: I'm not sure what the population numbers are in the Duck Mountain area.

The Chair: Thank you, Inky.

Dick.

Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for the presentation. I had two or three specific questions, picking up on Mr. Mark and Madame Tremblay's questions.

First of all, when specifically did CFIA downgrade Manitoba from tuberculosis-free to tuberculosis-accredited?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: That would have been in 1997. As we apply the rules at the moment, you can have one case of TB in a five-year period and maintain your TB-free status. They had a second case in 1997, so that's when their status would have been downgraded. At that time, it didn't have any particular impact on cattle movement, but certainly the status was downgraded.

Mr. Dick Proctor: When was the Province of Manitoba notified of the downgrading of the status?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: As I understand, an official notification was not made at that time. In informal discussions between veterinary officials, it may have come up. I do know that a formal notification and some discussion of the problem was done in 2001 at the annual Canadian animal health consultative committee between CFIA, provinces, and industry partners.

Mr. Dick Proctor: Why did it take four years to notify the province that's involved in this that they've had a change in their tuberculosis status? That would be the obvious question.

Dr. Sarah Kahn: I suppose the first comment I should make is that the TB policy is available to all stakeholders, all partners of the CFIA. So that policy was known, I would hope, on the parts of provincial partners.

The critical thing is that the change of status didn't have any practical impact on producers or on the province, vis-à-vis the commercialization of cattle or bison. The other thing is that we can look back now and reflect a little, but at the time, it was thought that this would be a temporary thing and that it would be fairly straightforward to regain free status within a five-year period.

The finding in 2001 made it clear that they weren't going to regain that free status easily and relatively quickly. That's why consultations started in earnest in 2001.

À (1025)

Mr. Dick Proctor: In your opening statement, Dr. Kahn, you indicate very clearly that bovine TB is a reportable disease under the Health of Animals Act and regulations. It seems to me almost beyond belief that the Manitoba government wouldn't have been notified as soon as this was revealed in 1997. Why it would take four years, I just find incomprehensible.

Dr. Sarah Kahn: Well, again, it didn't change Canada's status internationally and it didn't affect the commercial activities of producers in the province and it didn't change the standing of the province relative to being able to freely move cattle and bison within the country.

Mr. Dick Proctor: But if, as Madam Tremblay said, what happened over the last ten years.... Surely the fact that the province involved wasn't notified would certainly not have helped the eradication of tuberculosis. Perhaps if the government of the day had been notified, steps would have been taken jointly. We talk about agriculture being a joint federal-provincial responsibility. Surely that would have had a positive impact toward dealing with this in a more timely way.

Dr. Sarah Kahn: It's a little difficult to comment on that. Certainly I can say, though, that we now notify provinces immediately.

We made allusion to the fact that there had been a case of TB in Ontario. That didn't change the province's status, but we certainly immediately initiated some consultations with the provincial government and the producers to highlight that the possibility was there--in other words, if a second case was found--that they would lose their TB-free status.

Mr. Dick Proctor: Moving ahead, now that the United States has zoned a portion of Manitoba as a result of this TB accreditation, what is CFIA's view on the financial impact for farmers in the areas affected?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: Well, the action of the U.S. Department of Agriculture in fact implicates the whole province. In attempting to mitigate the impact, we are setting up this special eradication zone around Riding Mountain. The next step will be to have some veterinarians visit and review our arrangements, so that they will normalize the status of the rest of Manitoba. In setting up these arrangements we hope to limit the impact of any decisions by USDA to adjust the Riding Mountain TB eradication zone, which, as we've mentioned, is about 50,000 cattle.

The fact is that in the United States some individual states had already required TB testing, because there's a variability in the types of TB conditions that apply, and for the movement of breeding cattle there was already some TB testing required in some of the states that import from Canada.

The second part to bear in mind is that the larger movement of feeder animals for slaughter is not affected. All in all, the CFIA, in consultation with stakeholders, is trying to minimize the economic impact as far as possible.

The Chair: Thank you, Dick.

Monsieur Duplain.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Duplain (Portneuf, Lib.): I have some questions for the witnesses. I'd like you to review some of the more technical aspects of your burn program the aim of which is to preserve the animals' habitat so that they can remain in the park. What exactly does this burn program involve?

[English]

Dr. Sarah Kahn: In respect to

[Translation]

farmed animals?

Mr. Claude Duplain: No. In the portion of your submission where you address control and prevention issues, you note that Parks Canada “has implemented a more aggressive prescribed burn program to restore healthy and diverse habitats within the Park.”

How does the burn program work exactly?

À (1030)

[English]

Mr. Greg Fenton: Fire has played a critical role in the natural environment in Riding Mountain historically. As a part of our broader national program we are trying to introduce fire back into the ecosystems within which it occurred. That's its primary objective, but there are some benefits to doing that for the situation at hand here with the wildlife.

The theory is that the forests are much older and not as suitable for grazing or browsing areas for animals like elk, so they have had to move out of the park more often than they would have historically had fire been playing an active role. That's very simply put.

If we can introduce more fire onto the landscape within the park, the objective is to create more areas or more habitat that's suitable for animals like elk and deer in the hopes of trying to keep them in the park, or more of them in the park, or away from some of these hot-spot areas that have been identified in the Rossburn-Grandview area. We can then minimize the potential interaction between elk or deer and cattle and thereby reduce the potential transmission between the two. So that's where the linkage of the prescribed burning program is with this particular issue.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Duplain: I have another question. Your presentation was well done and you seem to be doing everything that needs to be done. The committee that you have struck is composed of six stakeholders, including federal and provincial officials. No doubt you communicate with local residents and with farmers to discuss prevention issues. That's all well and good, but communication is often difficult. Various departments and teams often have problems or are sometimes slow to communicate with one another.

Are you certain that the plan you have devised is effective and that everyone is communicating effectively? As for for your nice presentation, do you really have enough staff and resources to ensure your plan's effectiveness? Are you certain that everyone is cooperating as they should?

[English]

Mr. Greg Fenton: In terms of communications, you are absolutely right, it can be very difficult, given that people's livelihoods are potentially at stake, and sometimes discussions get very heated. I think Mr. Mark has some first-hand experience, and Mr. Hilstrom, at some of the community meetings. But in a general sense, we--again, jointly, the federal and provincial jurisdictions--have been relatively effective in providing or meeting the objectives of the communications part of the program in terms of getting out timely information to those potentially affected by the incidence of bovine tuberculosis, and also providing opportunities for producers, and the agricultural associations and wildlife associations, to have some input and influence on the management program as it's developed and then implemented.

As I mentioned to Mr. Mark, we will certainly be continuing to do that, both from the standpoint of giving out information and providing opportunities for people to be more actively involved in the development and/or adjustments of the program into the future.

You can always do more, I recognize that, whether it's with this issue or other types of issues that I'm dealing with on a day-to-day basis in the management of a national park. It's a complex one, but my view is that while we could be doing better, we are doing a relatively good job.

Are the people I need available to us? I think all of the organizations have done a very good job in dedicating individuals to this particular issue and ensuring that they are all, at the same time, at meetings that we have with producers, with the livestock associations or the commodities groups, and with the wildlife federation so that there is a common message and people can represent their own organization's views on an ongoing basis.

Yes, we could supplement that, or any area of the program, but given the people and the resources we currently have, we are doing a good job, in my view.

À (1035)

The Chair: Merci, Claude.

Howard, back to you again.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: The reason it's coming back to me, folks, is because I have a cattle ranch right in Manitoba, and in the Interlake country of Manitoba we have multi-thousands of elk that have been established there. Some of those elk were transferred from the Riding Mountain National Park in the last 20 to 30 years. This elk issue is a gigantic issue right around all of Manitoba. The wildlife population with disease in it is of gigantic concern because those elk can travel, quite easily, around the south end of Lake Manitoba and get up into the Interlake. The seriousness of this is gigantic.

I don't think either of your departments.... I appreciate that you folks are not at the political level and not at the high level. Did the warden not think it was serious enough to come down himself from Riding Mountain National Park on this today? Did you discuss it with him, Greg?

Mr. Greg Fenton: Concerning the warden, are you referring to Marvin Miller?

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: The warden from Riding Mountain National Park--

Mr. Greg Fenton: Marvin Miller is our representative on the committee, but--

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Is he the warden?

Mr. Greg Fenton: He is my chief park warden. That is correct.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Did he not feel he should come down here today?

Mr. Greg Fenton: No. As the individual responsible for the management of the unit, I felt that it was more appropriate that I attend the session today, but he certainly had significant involvement in the preparations.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: Okay. Well, both Parks Canada and the CFIA deserve and are getting criticism over this issue. The CFIA has taken a position on this tuberculosis not unlike what Great Britain took when foot and mouth disease broke out over there, of not trying to take immediate, hard action. That's a criticism specifically of the CFIA, starting back when they failed to tell the Province of Manitoba that in fact there was a TB problem. The United States in particular, our biggest customer, had done that, and you have not, even at this point.

I'll let you reply to that in just a minute.

Your action outside the park is fine, and I appreciate that you don't have the authority there, but the CFIA, through your minister, should obviously be taking a much stronger stand. But we hear nothing.

To Parks Canada, the big criticism against you is that you have no concept at all of what the cattle industry is. You're operating under policy from this Parliament, I guess, and from the minister, of ecological integrity. To you, that means back to nature: let the disease go wherever it goes; let the wolves eat the dead ones or the ones that are too weak to survive.

Those are my two questions. I'd like either Mike or Greg to talk about this ecological integrity concept, that it's back to nature and let nature run its course with little or no real management.

Then, to the CFIA, have you buried your heads in the sand over this tuberculosis issue, and still have your heads buried? This issue could spread much further through the wildlife population, and your actions aren't strong enough right now to contain it while it's still small.

Okay, go ahead, whoever.

Mr. Mike Wong: Perhaps I can start off with respect to your question on the ecological integrity. As an agency, the protection and the restoration of ecological integrity is indeed our first priority, as stated in the National Parks Act.

The way we manage this particular process in relation to this particular issue of wildlife disease is really one where we see bovine tuberculosis in our wildlife, within our parks, as a serious problem. In fact, it is a stressor that is affecting the native population of elk, and potentially deer, within this national park. For that reason, we are at the table leading the committee with the stakeholders in the management of this issue.

I think it would be fair to say that within the context of the definition of ecological integrity, we're not protecting nature for the sake of nature. In the world, as certainly the scientists are demonstrating with issues such as long-range transport of pollutants, there are no pristine areas left in our ecosystem system. In fact, we have to make conscientious decisions to go about managing ecological integrity, and it is a very complex task.

But certainly we see the management of ecological integrity being based on sound science, and as you have seen in today's presentation, we are bringing some of that science, working with the stakeholders in the management of this particular issue, and it does have a potential impact on the ecological integrity within our parks.

À (1040)

The Chair: Sarah.

Dr. Sarah Kahn: I think I just have to reiterate, the agency's mandate is to deal with farmed livestock. We have been conscientiously following the TB eradication policies throughout, in Manitoba as we have elsewhere in Canada, when we've come across a case of tuberculosis.

Findings in wildlife don't affect Canada's TB-free status in the sense of meeting an international standard or in the sense of our trading relationship with partners like the United States. However, findings of TB in wildlife are significant because of the potential there for this type of reservoir of infection, for there to be extension to farmed herds.

When a case is detected in wildlife, the CFIA tests all herds within a ten-kilometre radius. This is our response; this is the way we translate that into action: to try to root out any cases of infection that could somehow be associated with a finding in wildlife. We have followed this policy pretty consistently.

The changes that we now make will bring Canada's TB eradication policies into closer alignment with the policies in the United States. We are dealing with the problem in a very similar way to the U.S. approach. In fact, a part of their decision in regard to Manitoba reflected the problems the U.S. Department of Agriculture is having in similar situations with wildlife and their interaction with cattle or bison herds.

Mr. Howard Hilstrom: In Michigan they've got a massive cull of wildlife going on, and I don't hear anybody talking about a cull up here. Is that not true? Does Michigan not have a massive cull on the go with regard to white-tailed deer?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: There's a hunter cull, yes. They're also worried about chronic wasting disease, so there's a lot of work now in wildlife for perhaps both reasons.

The Chair: Mr. Wong, from your research--this is one part of your report--across Canada, nearly every province monitors the wildlife that are being hunted each year. Have other provinces--maybe you haven't done this--have they reported any TB among the deer in New Brunswick, or the...?

Mr. Mike Wong: The other known case of bovine tuberculosis in wildlife is certainly the situation around Wood Buffalo National Park; that is with bovine TB in the bison. With respect to other reported cases, I'm not aware of any.

The Chair: Have you researched this? When you consider only a few hundred elk are being harvested each year and you're finding cases, yet on the cattle side there are probably tens of thousands being slaughtered and they find practically nothing, where is the problem?

I don't know how you are going to look at this. You say there's an incubation period of--I'll turn to Dr. Kahn now--a year, two years? How long does this...?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: It can be very lengthy. You can find TB in a herd that's been closed for ten years, which means an animal has been infected in that herd and quietly had a silent lesion. So it can be a very lengthy period between the original infection and being able to detect it.

À (1045)

The Chair: And you have carriers, too.

With the elk, of course, you're looking at other problems, such as chronic wasting, and they are doing very extensive research across the country among the breeders.

But I'm like Mr. Hilstrom. We have people with a good genetic basis in cattle in the Grandview and that area of Manitoba, and I could see where their cattle would be suspect when they're trying to do commercial sales internationally. I'm not sure how you're going to approach this, but it's really quite alarming.

Can you round up some of these elk and test a thousand and see whether it's 3% or 2% of the herd? There must be some way. You must be investing a lot of money in what you're doing, but could there be a roundup of elk? There are these fancy fences; you could get a hundred of them inside a fence and see one or two or three. There are ways of testing besides slaughter, I understand, are there not?

Greg.

Mr. Greg Fenton: I just have a couple of comments, the first on monitoring. In terms of other jurisdictions that are actively monitoring for diseases such as this, I'm not aware as a result of talking to my staff or our provincial folks that there is active monitoring taking place in a way such as we are doing in and around Riding Mountain at this point in time. If it were to occur, it would likely occur as a result of some positive tests on livestock that had triggered it.

The science indicates--and I have been told by my staff and some of the provincial staff--that in a natural system bovine tuberculosis doesn't normally persist for great lengths of time. There needs to be the interaction, and the transmission, once it gets into the system.... That's the issue we're dealing with here. In a natural environment, given the low prevalence of bovine TB, the disease itself should disappear over a period of time.

The management strategies that are currently in place are twofold: first, again, to reduce the potential interaction between the two so there's no transmission from either wildlife to cattle or from livestock to wild animals; then second, to reduce even further the wild populations, targeting elk but deer as well, to try to further minimize it.

If we are not successful in reducing the populations to the levels we feel are going to be effective or in reducing that risk, we will have to examine other potential strategies. We will be looking at those. What they might be, Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure, but we would certainly be looking at some other strategies.

The Chair: In terms of the struggle against human tuberculosis, you had a major factor in the environment. We talk about overcrowding, and there may be too many there.

David?

Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian Alliance): I just have a couple of comments in reaction to what you said, that it's a short-term problem in a natural environment. It seems to me that then there's a pretty quick and easy way of getting rid of it in the short term, and that is culling that herd effectively and seriously in order to reduce the activity of the disease in the natural environment. I'd like a comment on that.

I would like to address the other one to Mike, and that is, how is ecological integrity or sound science served well by allowing a reservoir of foreign disease in a herd of animals? I'd be interested in hearing the answers to those two answers.

When you said that, that there's a short-term activity of the disease in the natural environment, it seems as if there's a quick and easy solution--it may not be easy for you--which is to cull that herd in a radical fashion.

Mr. Greg Fenton: First of all, I just want to reiterate that based on the sampling, we believe the current prevalence is low. It's been deemed by the organizations involved as low, around 1% to 3%, depending on how you geographically partition it.

In a natural environment, where there's not the potential for transmission back and forth between livestock and wildlife, the science--or at least I have been told--indicates that the disease should not persist. I don't know the length of time in which it would normally and naturally disappear, but we are trying to accelerate that through the three strategies: herd reduction, barrier fencing, and the legislation around baiting.

Certainly, if we're not successful in getting the herd reduction to the level we want in the short term, if there don't appear to be any changes, or if animals testing positive continue to be found through the sampling program, then obviously we will be reviewing our programs and trying to come up with other mechanisms by which we can reduce the population. Whether it will be more tags, whether it will be in the areas of concentration or the areas of concern, or whether it will be looking at more active management within the park, I don't know. I wouldn't want to speculate on that right now, but we would certainly be looking at--

À (1050)

Mr. David Anderson: It seems to me you know the solution, but there is obviously not the political will to do it. You may not be allowed to do it, but you know what it is.

Mr. Greg Fenton: I think we're using the legislative mechanisms within the multi-jurisdictional area that allow us at this point in time the easiest means of trying to reduce the population, and that's through hunting outside the park.

Mr. David Anderson: I heard that phrase “multi-jurisdictional landscape” before, and I actually wrote it down because I'm going to use it myself when I want to get out of taking responsibility for anything.

Mike.

Mr. Mike Wong: With reference to your question regarding ecology integrity, you respond by looking at wildlife disease and ecological integrity in two ways. Certainly wildlife species have evolved over the millennia and have adapted very well to native wildlife diseases. That's not the situation we're talking about here. We're looking at a foreign disease that has infiltrated the wildlife population.

As to the question of whether, from an ecological integrity perspective, at its current level of 1% to 3%, depending on the geographical distribution around Riding Mountain, this affects the long-term viability of the elk population, I don't believe we have scientific information to answer that currently. But I'd like to bring the committee to the common goal. From an ecological integrity perspective, our goal is to have a sustainable, viable, and healthy population of wild elk within our national park. I believe this parallels the goal of the stakeholders, who are looking at a healthy and viable population of livestock.

I think what you're seeing here is we do have common goals in terms of managing, controlling, and, in the long term, eliminating bovine tuberculosis from wildlife as well as from domestic livestock. For that reason, the stakeholders, the province, and the federal government agencies have come together to develop what I see as a very practical action plan to reach these goals.

The Chair: Mr. Wong, I'm going to cut you short because I have two others. Larry hasn't had an opportunity yet, and then Madam Tremblay.

Mr. Larry McCormick (Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have three or four quick questions, but I want to clarify something. If a wild animal is infected with TB and it's consumed by people, can the people catch TB from eating the meat?

Dr. Sarah Kahn: Meat isn't considered to be a risk of infection. The greater risk would be butchering, cutting up and processing the animal.

Mr. Larry McCormick: Thank you very much.

And have you informed hunters, including first nations? Is everyone being educated as to this so that they are being careful?

Mr. Greg Fenton: Yes, there are significant efforts, in terms of communication, in this area, through a variety of means. Certainly for all the hunters who receive hunting permits, there are regulation summaries and there are precautionary notes there as a part of the regulations.

Mr. Larry McCormick: Thank you.

Mr. Chair, on compensation, I'd like to have an answer from both Parks Canada and CFIA as to whether compensation is flowing to the producers affected now. How many people at those three farms are under quarantine? Are we checking those animals out now? We could do it in two or three weeks. Are we moving on this problem? That's what I'd like to ask.

Dr. Sarah Kahn: Yes, we are moving on the farms that are quarantined. They've only destroyed four animals so far, two from each of two farms. I'm not aware of a third farm under quarantine, so I can only mention the two. For animals that are destroyed for disease control purposes, the CFIA compensates the owner according to the market value of the animal at the time it was destroyed.

Mr. Larry McCormick: How many more animals have to be tested? How long will that take before they are free and they can enter the open market again, these ranchers?

À (1055)

Dr. Sarah Kahn: In these two herds that are under quarantine, depending on the results of post-mortem and culture of the animals that have been destroyed, if we find positive results--and it's considered likely that will be the case--then those herds would be depopulated completely. Again, the compensation would be made for the value of the animals depopulated.

Mr. Larry McCormick: For any compensation being made, Mr. Chair, while these people.... Perhaps the price of beef is going down and so on, and I just hope that we're doing something very fair with these people who are being affected, these operators.

Dr. Sarah Kahn: The question of compensation is always a very sensitive one, but this is the same approach that's used in all cases where the CFIA depopulates animals for disease control. There's an evaluation team with representation from the producer and from the government, they reach an agreed valuation on each animal, and the owner is paid an according amount.

Mr. Larry McCormick: My last question, Mr. Chair, is to Mr. Fenton.

I appreciate the fact of you being here, each of you people, to inform us, but are you meeting regularly with your provincial counterparts in the other park that's to the north of you?

Mr. Greg Fenton: Provincial parks is a part of Manitoba Conservation, so yes.

Mr. Larry McCormick: Are you meeting regularly with them?

Mr. Greg Fenton: Yes.

Mr. Larry McCormick: The animals are going back and forth every week.

Mr. Greg Fenton: Yes.

Mr. Larry McCormick: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. McCormick.

Madame Tremblay.

[Translation]

Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's a shame really, but as time passes, the more concerned I become about what could possibly happen. The Agency is responsible for farmed animals, while national parks are responsible for wildlife in the parks. Wildlife outside park areas are a provincial responsibility. Animals migrate. We heard a lot about Manitoba, but what of the other provinces? Nowhere in the plans that you have presented do we find any systematic provisions for the other provinces. What do you plan to do about them? Manitoba wildlife may migrate to Ontario, then on to Quebec and ultimately to New Brunswick. Do you have a systematic program in place to address this concern?

[English]

Dr. Sarah Kahn: There is surveillance of all the farmed animals that go to slaughter for human consumption. There's inspection and there's a mechanism to detect any cases of TB. When we find the disease, we go in and thoroughly investigate and eradicate herds that are affected. We trace all possible sources.

In wildlife there isn't a similarly structured surveillance program, but all the information we have to date is that this problem is quite distinct to the Riding Mountain area. Where we have found the occasional cases--we did in Ontario--there was absolutely no suggestion they were associated with wildlife. So in each case detected we do a thorough investigation, and then take action accordingly.

The Chair: Thank you, Madame Tremblay, and thank you to Dr. Kahn, Mr. Wong, and Mr. Fenton.

It was certainly an informative meeting this morning. I know the committee members, after listening, are certainly aware of the situation Mr. Hilstrom and others have brought to our attention in the past. I do hope the people of Manitoba and the farmers of Manitoba have better luck, in terms of dealing with this.

As chair, I shouldn't make many comments, but I can't help but think, Mr. Wong, you should look at overpopulation. I'm sure reducing the herd there would reduce the size of the area they needed to get their food. It might be a big factor. I'm not sure what we might suggest later, but I know that when you crowd animals, you develop the possibility of contact and contamination. By having a shortage of food, you certainly increase the territory they cover. I think, Howard, your points on that were very good.

With that we will adjourn our meeting. Thank you all for coming.