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Good evening, everybody.
I'm calling the meeting to order. We're a minute ahead of time. Thank you for being here.
I'd like to welcome you to meeting 10 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.
The committee is meeting today from 6:29 to 8:29 to hear from the Minister of Digital Government and the President of the Treasury Board on the supplementary estimates (B) 2020-21.
To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Interpretation of this video conference will work very much like in a regular committee meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen to use either the floor, English or French. I would ask that you choose the language in which you will be speaking. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute. In response to a point of order during the meeting, committee members should ensure that their microphone is unmuted and say “point of order” to get the chair’s attention.
In order to ensure social distancing in the committee room, if you need to speak privately with the clerk or analysts during the meeting, please email them through the committee email address. For those people who are participating in the committee room, please note that masks are required unless you are seated and when physical distancing is not possible.
I will now invite the Minister of Digital Government to make her opening statement.
I'd like to thank the committee for inviting me here again to discuss the 2020-21 supplementary estimates (B) for the digital government portfolio.
I'm joining you from the traditional unceded territory of the Musqueam, Tsleil-Waututh and Squamish peoples.
As Minister of Digital Government, I lead the teams of the chief information officer and the Canadian Digital Service—both in the Treasury Board Secretariat—as well as Shared Services Canada, to deliver the government's digital service agenda.
Today, I'm joined again by Karen Cahill, chief financial officer for TBS; Marc Brouillard, CIO for the Government of Canada; Paul Glover, president of Shared Services Canada; and lastly, Samantha Hazen, CFO for Shared Services Canada.
As the minister responsible for the government's digital transformation, part of my mandate is to work with my ministerial colleagues to provide federal public servants with the tools and strategies they need to design and deliver the services Canadians expect in the digital era: services that are secure, reliable and easy to use.
To continue our successful shift so far to digital government, we must also change how we work within. Instead of seeing departments as siloed organizations with separated responsibilities, we need to think across government as a whole because that's the only way that we can provide seamless service to the public.
Each of the teams that I lead—SSC, CDS, and OCIO—has a key role, from setting government-wide policy and standards on service and digital, to supporting and modernizing the IT that supports digital delivery, to building the digital tools that are deployed across departments and that serve Canadians on the front lines.
This work is starting to break down the culture of silos and bring in an enterprise approach. This is how we will become a modern, digitally enabled government that delivers reliable service at any time from any device—including in person—the kind of service that Canadians expect.
COVID-19 has highlighted the fact that new policies and programs are important, but even more important is just how we deliver them.
Is a particular service convenient for the person receiving it? As an MP with an office that helps constituents, I can tell you that, historically, sometimes it's not that convenient. However, last spring when Canadians and businesses urgently needed financial support, they couldn't wait and couldn't apply in person, so departments worked together to quickly deliver new programs and services digitally. It was all hands on deck. That's how we delivered programs like the CERB or the COVID Alert app in a matter of weeks.
This urgent digital response to COVID-19 often took public servants outside of their regular processes and comfort zones. That culture change is critical to my work going forward. I'm focused on seizing this momentum so that our government can deliver better, faster and more-reliable services to Canadians in the future.
The items included in the supplementary estimates (B) reflect the increasing need to deliver the types of services that Canadians expect.
In these estimates, Shared Services Canada is requesting Parliament's approval to increase its authorities by $278.4 million to $2.49 billion.
This increase includes $91 million for IT services that directly support COVID-19 emergency relief programs, including rapid deployment of connectivity, collaboration tools, and emergency IT equipment for public servants.
It includes $84 million to replace data centre equipment for safe storage of information and network tools to reduce vulnerabilities and meet security standards.
It includes $37.3 million for IT modernization initiatives, including activities that advance a digitally enabled workforce, and $31.1 million for the secure cloud enablement and defence project to build secure access to cloud services, which will in turn provide better services to Canadians.
It will include $23.5 million for core information technology services and funding to support partner-led initiatives, and $10 million for secure video conferencing to expand secure communications for ministerial communications and cabinet committee meetings. These investments will help to provide federal public servants and departments with the tools, guidance and capacity they need to improve operations and support the delivery of better services in the digital age.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I am pleased to take questions from the committee.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for appearing again before committee.
For my first question, Shared Services Canada—which is under your portfolio, and which exists to provide the federal government with IT and digital services—will spend a reported $2.1 billion this year. That's over a 40% increase from when you took office.
I also read, in the annual Bloomberg Innovation Index, which measures countries' innovation in things such as the digital economy, that Canada had actually fallen two places, year over year. We've fallen behind countries such as Slovenia, Australia and Italy.
I'm wondering, with a 40% increase in spending on digital services, why are we falling behind when it comes to innovation?
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Thank you, Minister, I appreciate that.
In the last meeting I mentioned a case related to Global Affairs, which had completed a project that led to Cisco offering lower prices than those offered to Shared Services Canada for the same products that Shared Services Canada procured through a sole-source contract. Your team mentioned that it needed more specifics.
The project in question is the Lester B. Pearson rehabilitation project for the local area network. It was completed in August this year, primarily for switches.
In the last one to two years, if it's true that Shared Services Canada purchased the same equipment provided by Cisco to Global Affairs for this project, can you please consider why the cost was so much lower when Global Affairs Canada did an RFP? Why is Shared Services Canada not also conducting RFPs so it can get the best prices for Canadian taxpayers?
That actually leads me to my final question, Minister, for this round. In our previous meeting, the staff had mentioned that no new data centres were being built, but I have been told that the CRA is presently building a new data centre.
Can you confirm that the procurement for this CRA project, including the networking, will be completed in an open, competitive manner based on functional requirements and not on the current requirements, or the previous requirements that only allowed for incumbent players to compete on these projects?
Welcome back, Minister, and your officials.
Minister, as you know, we are well into what's called the second wave of the pandemic. We are all doing our best to make sure that we protect ourselves and our loved ones. The government's been in the forefront of making sure that there is sufficient PPE out there. Rapid tests have been well distributed and continue to be distributed to provinces.
Another tool that's being heavily discussed and that you mentioned at your last appearance is the COVID Alert app. I was looking at an update today and I think we're at a 5.5 million people who have adopted it, which is about 15%. I know that we need anywhere between 60% to 80% adoption to be able to really do it justice.
Can you expand on how your department has been involved in developing the COVID Alert? What are some of the challenges with the potential hesitancy about it that's being felt out there?
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I would love to answer that question. I'm always happy to promote COVID Alert. Thank you for the question.
It's an important tool for keeping Canadians safe. The first thing I want to say is that there was recently a study by Stanford and Oxford researchers working with the fundamental Apple-Google foundation for these apps, which has concluded that it is effective at any level. In fact, at 15% uptake, their model—which was based on three counties in the State of Washington—suggests that the use of the COVID Alert app at 15% can reduce deaths by 6% and reduce infections by 8%. That means we are already saving lives with COVID Alert.
The Canadian Digital Service worked with some open source code that the Ontario Digital Service had started working with, based on an Apple-Google foundation to create an app that.... One of the fundamental parts of this app and why people should feel safe and confident in downloading it is that it was designed with privacy utmost in mind. It does not track users' information. It doesn't track their location. It doesn't collect their data in any way. Even the federal Privacy Commissioner has said he is planning to download it.
Mr. Jowhari, how it works is that if a person with the app is within six feet of someone else with the app for over a certain time period, their phones will exchange Bluetooth signals. That way, should someone test positive, they will be given a one-time key that they can put into their phone and their phone will then send a notification to anyone with whom they were in close proximity for that time period.
We've done some upgrades already to refine it and narrow the window of potential vulnerability more closely. We're continuing to make sure that this is as effective as possible. We're working with provinces like British Columbia and Alberta to respond to their questions and concerns. Both of those provinces could use this app, and I'm optimistic that they will be part of this national program before too long.
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Yes, I can talk abut the things we've done already, and they're very much focused on people—very much customer focused, as you're alluding to.
CDS put together “Get Updates on COVID-19”, along with Service Canada, so that individuals could go to one place and put in some non-identifying information and get everything they might be eligible to receive and how to apply for it. That's just one.
Another one is a simple way for ministries to notify people quickly, easily and securely of updates of what's going on and what they need to know. I think there have been over five million updates that have been sent out, many of them from the health ministry. This is a program they update called Notify, found at notification.canada.ca. It's being used by provinces and other organizations, because it just makes it so much easier.
There are other ones I could mention, but I think I will turn it over to Marc Brouillard briefly to add his context.
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Thank you very much, Mr. Brouillard.
On November 13, 2020, the Parliamentary Budget Officer sent an information request to SSC asking about the dollar amounts spent on cybersecurity, the CERB, the CRA call centres, and on health measures for first nations.
Did you supply this information by November 27 as requested?
If not, when do you expect to do so?
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Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
My good friend, Mr. Lloyd, opened his round of questioning with some really important questions. I'm a former city counsellor, and I know that in instances of what I would call shady dealings around procurement, one of the ways staff would do that is to break up big contracts and have them procured out as smaller contracts.
I noted that the honourable Minister had a bit of a chuckle but didn't quite answer the question. I want to make sure I got a chance to put the question back to her. When she became minister, was she briefed on this practice as a point of procurement, given the size, scale and scope of the IT modernization within her purview.
Madam Minister, I have a few questions for you.
My first question is about the WeChat application.
As you know, the United States wants to ban this application, which is controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. A few months ago, a member of your cabinet used your WeChat account to collect funds to support a lawsuit against Global News because Global News had spoken about the problem of sending protective equipment to China.
First, was this employee dismissed?
Second, are your offices still using WeChat—yes or no?
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Thank you, Minister. I will ask representatives of another department.
In your opening statement, you spoke about programs that were put in place quickly in response to the COVID-19 crisis. But this was accompanied in June by the inconvenient fact that the personal information of 5,500 people with a Canada Revenue Agency account had been compromised. Later, we learned that this was 11,200 accounts, some of which were accessible by means of a GCKey, a system that affects 30 departments, and other portals.
We even learned that these figures had quadrupled. According to information that we obtained, almost 50,000 Canadians had their personal information stolen when they were using government sites.
Can you confirm how many people in Canada were victims of identity theft as a result of using programs related to COVID-19 ?
I must say it has been very essential work as we suddenly had to pivot from people working in their offices to working from home.
At the same time, SSC continues to work to transform the fundamental IT and digital aspects of the Government of Canada to modern enterprise standards. There are a number of things that are all happening simultaneously. One key part of the transformation is the shift to the cloud. We now have a cloud-first policy as part of our agenda. Throughout COVID, we've seen more departments shift to the cloud, and we're keeping up with that. All but the most secret information can actually go into the cloud. That gives us the speed and agility to respond more quickly, so that's an important part of our program.
As I mentioned earlier to a different member, this secure cloud enablement in defence spending in supplementary estimates (B) is to make sure that the connections to the cloud are secure and that anything coming at us is identified and neutralized.
Another aspect is secure, remote work capacity. That doubled, literally in a matter of weeks, which enabled Microsoft Teams—a secure suite of tools for public servants that we were planning to roll out over a couple of years—to essentially be rolled out in weeks to 40 departments, including 187,000 public servants who suddenly had access to these more modern tools.
We increased teleconference capacity threefold. Wi-Fi calling was activated for 183,000 mobile accounts. Webex services doubled to 40,000 accounts—that's secure video conferencing—and 15,000 new computers were provided to public servants at the tax department and Service Canada so that they could serve people remotely.
This was an incredible mobilization and a credit to SSC for doing that.
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This is a critical part of modernizing. This is where the chief information officer branch works very closely with SSC.
SSC is providing the new enterprise data centre with hosting and managing the procurement of cloud services. Not all of these applications, as you mentioned, are suitable to go into cloud. Someone mentioned to me about the images that if an application is old and challenged, then it would be like moving your house; moving your garbage can, full of garbage, with your furniture; and then unpacking it into the garbage can in the new house.
That's pretty graphic, but we are now doing inventory on every application and giving it one of four ratings. It either is good to move to cloud now or it needs to be updated and upgraded. That's the service and maintenance that is a deficit from decades of inattention—
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In terms of applications, as I was saying, there are four categories. You're talking about the category of applications that really need to be put aside and not go into the cloud. We have stabilization mechanisms to make sure there is a fail-safe so that, should there be a crash, that data will not be lost and the service will not be interrupted. That is part of what we're doing.
The other thing is that there are modernization initiatives for some of the older and very critical applications that are used to serve Canadians. What's happening now is that we are taking an enterprise approach, a digital approach, to these modernizations. In the past government might have spent two years planning a modernization and five years doing the work on a very complex application, and then find out at the end, when you flip the switch, whether it works or not.
We're not doing it that way anymore. We're doing it based on digital principles. There is much closer work with the people who will be using the application. There are small pieces where there are pilots. There is checking: Does that work? If so, we go to the next piece: Does that work? By the time we're ready to use the new application, it has been tried and we know it will work. It's a whole different style of updating that we are applying to our large application modernizations.
Mr. Brouillard may have more detail to offer.
In our last meeting last week, it was indicated that the bulk of technology spending in the Government of Canada is done by Shared Services Canada, which has a budget of about $2.2 billion.
An Order Paper question submitted by my colleague, , asked for a summary of all technology spending by the Government of Canada in 2018 and 2019. The response from the government was that $6.8 billion was spent on technology that year.
I have two questions. Why is so much technology spending happening outside of Shared Services Canada? Do you, Minister, have oversight over this additional digital spending across the federal government?
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I just want to reinforce that the spending of digital government is substantial. From my perspective it's very important to adhere to our guidelines of cost-effectiveness and security while at the same time, if possible, making opportunities for small and medium-sized enterprises, and particularly businesses that help create greater inclusion of some of the groups that find it harder to access government services. We're currently testing an innovative contracting framework that is called “procurement process 3.0” to simplify procurement, to promote more competition and openness, and to ultimately get better results.
We're working with Technation, which represents many IT providers, both big and small. This was the first group I met with, I believe, after the last election as the Minister of Digital Government. I heard loud and clear that innovative small businesses were not feeling that our procurement system worked for them because it was just too much of an investment and took too long to get through a procurement. We are working with Technation to be able to change the contracting processes so that there will be more access for small and medium-sized enterprises. Pilot results have shown to be very promising. More than 80% of the respondents in this pilot participated in an invitation to refine our approach. They found SSC's responses timely and the communication from SSC transparent, and wanted to continue working with us. That's just one of the new initiatives.
Another has to do with what I would consider harnessing private-sector innovation by putting the procurement out: not as in, “We want you to do this for us,” but, “We want this outcome. What are your ideas and innovations for achieving that outcome?” I think that's really an exciting approach because it will unleash the creativity of the private sector.
I'll ask if Paul has more examples of the modernization aside from what I already mentioned, which is working with associations that represent some of the vulnerable groups we want to help create more opportunities for.
Paul, are there other things that you would like to highlight?
Mr. Chair, if I may on behalf of the minister, there are other groups. We are working not only as the minister said for small and medium-sized Canadian enterprises, but are also looking at what we can do for female-owned enterprises. There is definitely an issue with women in STEM—science, tech, engineering and math—so we're looking at what we can do in that regard.
We are looking at what we can do for visible minority-owned businesses to make sure they're able to access our procurement opportunities. We're very pleased and proud of the results we've had in targeting indigenous communities and indigenous-led businesses to be able to break into this space. We have let over $35 million in contracts in the IT space to indigenous....
We're trying to make sure that we target all segments of the population so that it is as inclusive as possible and that we are as easy as possible to deal with, while still protecting security and the operational integrity of the network and services we operate.
I would first like to thank the committee for inviting me back to speak this time to the supplementary estimates (B) 2020-21, which were tabled last October.
With me today, I have the pleasure of introduce to you Glenn Purves, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector; Karen Cahill, assistant secretary and chief financial officer; Sandra Hassan, assistant deputy minister, employment conditions and labour relations; and finally Kathleen Owens, assistant comptroller general, acquired services and assets.
These supplementary estimates (B) are the second of three supplementary estimates planned for fiscal year 2020-21. They outline new and updated spending needs for programs and services that were not sufficiently developed in time for inclusion in the 2020-21 main estimates.
[Translation]
The government needs to make sure that it gives Canadians the support they need during the COVID-19 pandemic, while at the same time promoting our country's economic recovery and prosperity .
We do this by investing in critical health care and supporting the safe restart of our economy. Our spending plans, the ones you have in front of you, will help Canada thrive, and remain strong and united.
The government continues to invest in Canadians and the economy, particularly in efforts to respond to the public health threats of the COVID-19 virus and to minimize its health, economic and social impacts.
[English]
These supplementary estimates (B) present a total of $79.2 billion in incremental budgetary spending. This includes $20.9 billion to be voted by Parliament and $58.3 billion in forecast statutory expenditures.
As you know, vote expenditures require annual approval from Parliament through an appropriation bill. These types of expenditures include operating, capital, and grants and contributions.
Statutory spending does not require annual approval from Parliament because that type of spending is already authorized by Parliament through separate legislation, such as the federal-provincial transfers that are pursuant to the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.
[Translation]
In these supplementary estimates (B), most of the $20.9 billion in new voted spending is for emergency responses to the COVID 19 pandemic, including medical research, vaccine development and purchases of personal protective gear, and medical equipment and supplies. They also cover economic responses to the pandemic, including support for small- and medium-sized businesses, salary top-ups for essential workers, and funding for provinces and territories to safely restart their economies, and bring students back to school.
[English]
Overall, funding requirements for the top 10 organizations account for approximately 85% of the voted spending sought through these estimates. Of those 10 organizations, eight are each seeking more than $500 million to support their priorities. For example, in my department, the Treasury Board Secretariat is asking for $646.6 million.
In addition, the $58.3 billion in planned statutory spending included in these estimates reflects the government's key response measures and emergency supports, including $28.5 billion for the Canada emergency response benefit, $12.3 billion for payments to provinces and territories for the safe restart agreement, $3.8 billion for medical research and vaccine development and $3.3 billion for the acquisition of protective gear and medical equipment.
These supplementary estimates (B) also include $1.3 billion in non-budgetary measures related primarily to student loans.
[Translation]
To conclude, my officials and I are very appreciative of the time the committee spends studying the government's spending on behalf of Canadians.
We would be pleased to take any questions you may have.
Thank you.
Good evening, Minister, and good evening to the officials who are with you.
We can speak in French, Mr. Minister. That's interesting.
I'd like you to speak about a matter that directly concerns the Treasury Board.
We know that the Treasury Board approves funding for new programs like the funds for the WE Charity. The secretariat's "Guidance for Drafters of Treasury Board Submissions" document states in black and white that submissions must contain: "Where official languages implications are foreseen, an Official Languages Appendix is required to demonstrate compliance with" applicable statutes and regulations. It goes on to say, "In all circumstances, you must conduct an Official Languages Impact Analysis."
When I asked the question last week, you did not have the answer. Can you or one of your officials tell me whether this was done for the WE Charity?
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Thank you very much, Mr. Paul-Hus.
You're right in saying that it's always very interesting for us to be able speak to one another in French, particularly as we are neighbours in Quebec City.
I would like to briefly mention two things about this matter, and then turn it over to Ms. Owens, who can give you further details.
First, the Treasury Board Secretariat deemed that the minister responsible for this file had all the required powers. Second, it was determined that the transfer payments policy was applicable to all transfer programs, including this one.
I will now ask Ms. Owens to provide you with more details.
Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Chair.
In the case of the WE contribution, ESDC officials did consult TBS to determine whether the Canada student grant program could be delivered under the minister's existing authorities, or whether a Treasury Board authority were required. In this case, we determined that it was under the minister's authority; therefore, the program and the contribution agreement never came to the Treasury Board. The Treasury Board had no role, but as the minister indicated, under the transfer of payment policy, it's the responsibility of the deputy head of the department to make sure that all official languages provisions of the act are being respected.
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That can't be right. Minister Duclos said that the minister had considered that she had the required authority. Now Ms. Owens just said that the Treasury Board Secretariat had been asked. That's really not very clear.
I don't have much speaking time left, so I'll continue, but we haven't heard the last of this matter, Minister.
I will now comment on the budget.
In your statement, you mentioned a budget for vaccines. I would like to understand. There are $3.8 billion for vaccine development and medical research, but there is no way of knowing where in Canada this money will go, nor what the contract amounts will be.
The Americans created the Operation Warp Speed partnership. In the United States, the largest capitalist country in the world, everything is there in black and white. The information is available and we know what's going on.
Why, here in Canada, are you asking us to adopt $3.8 billion in appropriations with our eyes shut, without knowing any of the details?
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Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.
In fact, the supplementary estimates (B) 2020-21, which you have in hand, include two items pertaining to vaccines and spending on drugs. On the one hand, there is an amount of $3.8 billion, which is a non-budgetary appropriation. It is therefore an amount already approved by Parliament. There is also a $5.4-billion amount which requires approval by the House of Commons and the Senate, which is also for spending on the development and supply of vaccines and drugs.
As you can see, these are substantial amounts. They align very well with this remarkably ambitious program—
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Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank the witnesses here today.
I would also like to thank my colleague, Minister Duclos, for being here with us again. We saw one another not so long ago.
Before going into greater depth on an issue that I believe is very important, I'd like to speak about the French language, in response to Mr. Paul-Hus's questions.
Mr. Duclos, I would like you to confirm something. Is the Treasury Board required to determine whether official languages have been complied with every time the Government of Canada launches a program? I believe I heard your colleague say that it was rather the authorities in each department who were required to ensure that both official languages were complied with when creating programs.
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Thank you very much for your answer.
So the Treasury Board establishes the rules and gives guidance, but it is not always the Treasury Board that decides whether or not these rules have been properly applied. Needless to say, we expect departments to comply with the rules.
I have a question about the Centre for Regulatory Innovation.
We spoke today about the fall economic statement. I recall that the 2018 fall economic statement mentioned the establishment of a centre for regulatory intervention. In fact, our committee was getting ready, before the COVID-19 pandemic, to study how to reduce bureaucracy in government, to enable businesses to deal with government more quickly without so much red tape.
Could you give us some information about the Centre for Regulatory Innovation?
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That's a good question, and I'm very pleased that you are taking an interest in it, not only as an MP with a lot of experience in business development, but also as a committee member.
The creation of the Centre for Regulatory Innovation was announced two years ago in the 2018 fall economic statement. The centre was launched recently and is doing very well. Its role is to make the public service innovative and creative in regulatory matters, by streamlining procedures, particularly for small businesses, which need us to adapt regulations to address their needs and concerns.
At this very moment, the departments taking part in this project, which have the centre's support, are testing new ways of designing and implementing regulations. Everyone benefits. It makes it easier for the public service and businesses, especially small businesses, to grow, develop and serve the country.
We're also in the same riding. We could just about start calling ourselves the Quebec committee rather than the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.
Mr. Duclos, we've spent a lot of money to reserve vaccine doses that will come from abroad. In April, we announced with considerable fanfare that we were spending money on research into a COVID-19 vaccine.There were investments in some Canadian companies, including one in which we share ownership, Medicago. It took several months before the grants were received, but they did eventually come in.
Of the amounts in the supplementary estimates that remain to be approved, which are for Canadian pharmaceutical companies to develop a vaccine?
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Thank you very much, Ms. Vignola.
Mr. Paul-Hus and Ms. Vignola, I'm very pleased to see you on screen.This is really nice. And in fact, all three of us are neighbours.
You're quite right to point out how proud we are to have Medicago facilities in our region. It's now in my riding, but it will soon have a presence in yours too.
Medicago is a story of success and pride. It received more than $170 million from the Canadian government over the past few weeks, as the first Canadian company to be developing a vaccine here in Canada. It's a source of considerable pride in Quebec City and in the province of Quebec. We take pride in supporting its considerable efforts in health, not only to develop but also produce a vaccine for 38 million Canadians.
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We're now talking about vaccines from abroad, but also from Quebec. I believe that a Calgary or a Vancouver company also received grants in April. We therefore have what it takes in Canada to lend a hand.
I'd like to discuss another matter.
In your statement, you said that eight organizations were asking for over $500 million each. For the Treasury Board Secretariat, it was $646.6 million. This amount includes $20 million for the initiative to upgrade applications. Approximately the same amount has been requested for negotiated wage settlements. Once again, nearly that amount is allocated to the stabilization of the Phoenix pay system.
Why were these expenditures not foreseeable enough to include in the main estimates, thus requiring us to put them in the supplementary estimates now?
The stabilization of the Phoenix pay system is certainly nothing new. As for the negotiated wage settlements, they should have been expected because they were negotiated.
You mentioned, Mr. Duclos, that you like clarity and simplicity. All kinds of measures have been implemented since mid-March to deal with an altogether exceptional situation. As a parliamentarian, but also as citizen, I'd like to have a table with three columns showing a list of the measures taken to deal with COVID-19, the expenditures thus far for each of these measures, and the expenditures expected for these measures. In other words, I would like to see what we are doing, how much it costs and how much it's going to cost.
Is it possible to get these figures? How much time would it take to come up with a simple table like that?
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Thanks, Mr. Chair and witnesses. Minister, welcome back.
Minister, I want to go back to the official languages impact analysis . On your own website, it states that an impact analysis is required if you answer “yes” to any of these questions, such as “Is your submission seeking the Treasury Board's approval for a new service or program?”—the answer would be “yes” for WE—and “Is your submission seeking Treasury Board's approval toward a grant or contribution to a non-government organization?”—the answer would again be “yes”. They would have had to do an official languages analysis.
It sounded like you were trying to pass off the responsibility for this to when it says right on your own website, regarding the responsibilities of Treasury Board, that the program analysis ensures that the official languages appendix has been completed. It's in your department's responsibility, but it was not done. You say that it's someone else's responsibility, when your own website states that program analysis ensures that the official languages appendix has been completed. They review the official languages impact analysis if it's required to provide one. Your own rules say one was required, yet you approved this money without it being done. Can you tell us why?
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Thank you, Mr. McCauley.
For the record, when points of order are called, I do stop the clock so that you can get the complete time you have and so that the time is not wasted.
I would ask that all members, when they are looking at a point of order, do so on an issue that is truly a point of order.
Thank you.
With that said, Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have five minutes.
Thank you, Minister, for again appearing before our committee. It's always terrific to see you here. I very much appreciate your succinct and comprehensive answers as well, so thank you very much for that.
Minister, last week you announced the publication of the updated greening government strategy, which sets new targets for net-zero, green and climate-resilient government operations.
The supplementary estimates (B) include $1.8 million for innovative approaches to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in government operations. We know that the Government of Canada owns about 20,000 cars and trucks. I just want to know what the updated strategy includes for the greening of the Government of Canada fleet.
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Thank you, Irek. That's indeed great that you followed that important announcement.
Indeed, the Government of Canada is the largest real-property owner in the country. That's why we want to proceed through our ongoing greening of federally owned assets, including the fleet, to support both the agenda to reduce pollution and also to support our domestic green building capacity.
I am also pleased to say that it addresses, as well, the issue of procurement. We want to make sure that those we procure from get the greatest benefit from that strategy, the benefit, as I said, of investments in a more green and clean environment, but also a larger economy that supports more middle-class Canadians, innovations and all sorts of great social impacts.
On that, I would end by saying that we have a particularly strong agenda around the procurement of either zero-emission vehicles or hybrid vehicles, starting right now with the purchase of a minimum of 75% zero-emission or hybrid vehicles for the Government of Canada fleet.
:
Thank you very much. Two and a half minutes of speaking time is short, but I'll take it.
Minister, you know as well as I do that the melting glaciers and the thawing permafrost, among other phenomena, could lead to other problems with respect to the bacteria and viruses we will have to cope with.
In our budget forecasts, whether in the current supplementary estimates or others to come, are there funds set aside for research into bacteria which, while for the time being are contained in our natural freezers, could escape fairly quickly? Are funds set aside for preventive research?
Minister, there would appear to be a small trend among Liberals with respect to French. As you know, Ms. Lambropoulos gave us a sample of it when she said there was no decline in French in Montreal. Furthermore, we saw that did not consider it necessary to comply with the guidelines from Treasury Board, for which you are responsible. Indeed, it is up to the Treasury Board to apply them. However, the minister deemed that it was not important to conduct an official languages impact assessment for the WE Charity.
How could you, as the President of the Treasury Board, accept such a situation?
:
And yet, that's what you're saying.
At the beginning, was said to have had responsibility but did not exercise it. She did not deem it necessary or appropriate to conduct this analysis, even though it was among the essential factors to be taken into consideration. Then you told me that the officials determined it wasn't important to conduct this analysis. You said that they had recommended to the minister not to do it. That's what you're saying.
Is there such a serious systemic decline in French within the machinery of government, that Treasury Board directives are ignored?
Not only that, but you are a Quebec francophone. You should have found that appalling.
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I would be happy to speak with .
I will now set aside the subject of the WE Charity and return to the Treasury Board.
My colleague, MP , as the Treasury Board spokesperson in our shadow cabinet, made an access to information request in September to obtain the briefing book, and received an English-only version of the briefing book. He then made an access to information request for the French version, and never received a reply. This was three months ago now.
Can you explain this situation? Why would a Quebec colleague be sent a document in English only from the Treasury Board, and was apparently unable to have it in French?
If I'm laughing, it's because I truly enjoy being able to spar every day alongside Mr. Duclos to defend the French language and the right of public servants to speak in their language within the federal government, whether in English or in French. I am heartened that Mr. Duclos is the President of the Treasury Board. He is someone who ensures respect for Canada's official languages every day.
Thank you, Mr. Duclos, I'm keen to continue to do battle by your side.
My questions concern a matter of particular interest for Canada's public servants, particularly those in the national capital region.
When we came to power in 2015, the entire public service had been without collective agreements for several years. In some instances, it was four years. In our first term, we negotiated and signed agreements with all public servants and unions. In some instances, we needed two rounds of collective bargaining. In the current term, we closed the loop by signing agreements with the Public Service Alliance of Canada and other unions in the second round of bargaining. Canada's public servants were thus able, twice over, to benefit from renewal of their collective agreements, which eliminated a number of uncertainties for them.
I would like you to comment on this and to explain how you undertook these negotiations. In a pandemic, when people are seeking reassurance wherever they can, what can public servants expect so that they can look to the future with confidence?
:
Thank you for this very good question and for your excellent comments.
I would like to remind everyone that in the fall of 2015, after a decade of neglect under the previous Conservative government, the 27 collective agreements with the core public administration had expired. In some areas, bargaining had been blocked for years.
Our government quickly took up the task and worked hard to restore and rebuild a culture of respect for the Canadian public service. We signed agreements with bargaining agents representing more than 99% of employees. We all know that not only in politics, but also in the public service, respect is the key to quality services for Canadians.
In the last round of bargaining, we signed collective agreements that covered over 80% of public servants. We also participated fully in the work of the Public Interest Commissions when negotiations reached that phase.
I would like to assure you of one thing, Mr. McKinnon, and of course this is for all colleagues in the national capital region, in addition to all other MPs who are fortunate to have public servants in their ridings, and that is that we will always work with public servants respectfully, because they have extraordinarily important work to do to serve Canadians from sea to sea, particularly during the pandemic.
:
Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.
This concludes our questioning.
Minister, I would like to thank you and your officials for coming back here for us on the supplementary estimates. I appreciate your time with us. You are welcome to leave at this point.
I'm going to ask the committee to hang on for a couple of minutes here. I have a quick question I'd like to ask as others leave the meeting.
Committee, I just want to bring up very quickly the issue of voting on the supplementary estimates. Basically, we've heard from two ministers at this point in time. We have not heard from the . We have requested and invited that minister to appear, but we've not received a response. At this point in time, basically, the order of reference for the committee to study the supplementary estimates (B), 2020-21 will be expiring soon. The committee can wait to see if the Minister of PSPC can appear, or we can vote on the estimates now.
I'm going to ask the clerk to briefly explain why we're bringing this up now, so that you understand the procedures. Then I will ask you if you want to vote on the supplementary estimates (B) now.