:
I call this meeting to order.
This is the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, meeting number 9. Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, November 5, 2013, this morning we will be discussing Bill an act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco).
We have two panels, two sets of witnesses. Our first set of witnesses are, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Inspector Cormier; and, from the Canada Border Services Agency, Mr. Leckey. Each of them will have a presentation of about 10 minutes.
Since you were here first, Mr. Leckey, you may begin.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to provide testimony in your consideration of Bill the tackling contraband tobacco act.
I'd like to begin by noting that the specific amendments to the Criminal Code proposed in Bill will have only a slight impact on the daily activities of the Canada Border Services Agency. However, we take the issue of contraband tobacco very seriously and we are supportive of the bill's intent to signal the seriousness of trafficking in contraband tobacco.
The illicit cigarette market in Canada has changed markedly since the 1990s. Back then the majority of the contraband market consisted of duty-free and exported Canadian cigarettes. Currently, the market in Canada comprises illicitly manufactured native brand cigarettes that are transported by land, as well as Chinese and other international brands of tobacco products entering Canada through postal, marine, and air modes.
[Translation]
From January 2013 to October 2013, the CBSA made approximately 1,900 tobacco seizures totalling over 21,000 cartons of cigarettes, 192,000 kilos of fine cut tobacco, 29 kilos of cigars and 1,235 kilos of other tobacco products such as chewing tobacco and snuff.
The contraband tobacco trade is a lucrative one, and activities to disrupt and prevent the flow of illicit goods from entering the country require active participation with partners, both at home and abroad.
The CBSA works with other government departments, law enforcement agencies, international organizations and foreign governments on operational and analytical issues related to organized crime and contraband criminal markets. Of our many partners, the agency works daily with the RCMP and the U.S. Customs and Border Protection on enforcement matters. The cooperation and collaboration between our organizations is longstanding and transcends tobacco issues.
[English]
Together with our U.S. partners, the CBSA and the RCMP participate in integrated border enforcement teams. The CBSA and the RCMP also work side by side within a number of other joint forces operations targeting contraband. As a result, we have a common understanding of the capabilities, intentions, vulnerabilities, and limitations of organized criminal networks, and we apply that intelligence to disrupt them and their supply chains.
Disrupting the criminal networks that engage in the cross-border movement of illicit tobacco is dependent on solid information and intelligence.
[Translation]
The CBSA maintains a robust and comprehensive Intelligence Program, which contributes to, and is informed by, the broader intelligence community. This allows for timely, accurate and relevant information to support our enforcement activities.
[English]
Through the U.S.-Canada beyond the border action plan and the CBSA's border modernization initiative, the CBSA is modernizing its operations with the aim of having decisions sequenced and made before people and goods arrive at the border. The Government of Canada's efforts to curb trafficking in contraband tobacco are well served by this initiative, as it aims to promote better intelligence-led enforcement activities. This in turn will facilitate legitimate trade and travel. At the end of the day, modern border management is about meeting our broader responsibilities for Canada's security and prosperity.
[Translation]
Information and intelligence, while necessary, is not in and of itself sufficient for effective border enforcement. The agency also relies on a combination of officer training and technology to interdict illicit goods, including tobacco products attempting to cross the border.
[English]
In conclusion, Mr. Chair, the CBSA recognizes the challenges associated with the cross-border movement of contraband tobacco and the need for a multidisciplinary approach to combat it. We will continue to leverage all resources available to us to identify and interdict contraband tobacco at the border. We will continue working with our partners, particularly the RCMP, to help implement this bill when it becomes law.
I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
:
Good morning, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee. First, I would like to apologize for my just-in-time arrival.
Thank you for inviting me here today to speak about Bill , the tackling contraband tobacco act. As director of the RCMP federal coordination centre, I oversee the RCMP's enforcement activities with respect to contraband tobacco. Bill would create a new offence for trafficking in contraband tobacco and increase the associated penalities.
To assist the committee in its study of Bill , I would like to provide you with a general overview of the current scope of the problem from the RCMP's perspective, as well as an overview of our enforcement activities.
[Translation]
Contraband tobacco remains a serious threat to public safety and if left unchecked, criminal organizations will continue to profit at the expense of the safety of Canadians.
[English]
Contraband tobacco has long been a standing enforcement priority for the RCMP. As the level of criminal involvement began to rise, the Minister of Public Safety launched a contraband tobacco enforcement strategy in 2008. Known as CTES, it sets out priorities for the objective of nationally reducing the availability and decreasing demand for contraband tobacco. The RCMP's CTES has had a positive and measurable impact on the contraband tobacco market in Canada. Since its inception in 2008, the RCMP has laid approximately 4,925 charges and has disrupted approximately 66 organized crime groups involved in the contraband tobacco market.
[Translation]
Criminal organizations are involved in the production, distribution, and trafficking of contraband tobacco and are exploiting first nations communities. Violence and intimidation tactics continue to be associated with illegal tobacco in first nations communities.
[English]
In addition to the tobacco smuggling encountered at Canada-U.S. ports of entry, extensive smuggling continues to occur in the Cornwall-Valleyfield corridor area, with the majority of activities occurring between the ports of entry, presenting unique enforcement challenges for law enforcement. In 2012, tobacco products seized while in transit involved automobiles, snowmobiles, all-terrain vehicles, and boats.
The RCMP has also seen contraband tobacco transported using postal delivery and air services.
[Translation]
Cornwall, Ontario is within the most active region for tobacco smuggling in Canada. Because of this, the RCMP participates in a number of joint investigative units with partner agencies. For example, in Cornwall the RCMP works with the Akwesasne Mohawk Police, the Ontario Ministry of Finance, and CBSA to combat organized crime and its involvement in contraband tobacco and other forms of criminality.
[English]
In April 2010, the RCMP established a combined special enforcement unit contraband tobacco initiative. Based in Cornwall, the unit was specifically mandated to target organized crime involved in the manufacturing and distribution of contraband tobacco, and works with its law enforcement partners.
[Translation]
In 2011 the government committed to addressing contraband tobacco by establishing a new RCMP Anti-Contraband Force (ACF). The RCMP is in the process of implementing the ACF and it is expected to be fully staffed and operational by the spring of 2014. The ACF will increase the RCMP's capacity to investigate organized crime and cross-border smuggling as well as target unscrupulous tobacco growers and illicit manufacturers. The ACF will also establish a dedicated outreach team to engage tobacco growers and suppliers of raw materials used in the tobacco manufacturing process.
[English]
As I have just outlined, the RCMP works with other law enforcement partners on multiple fronts to address the problem of contraband tobacco.
I would like to thank you for this opportunity, and I look forward to answering your questions.
I appreciate the difficulty you had in answering that last question. It's hard to know how much you're not getting when you're not getting it. But we can safely say that you're getting 100% of what you are finding.
Voices: Oh, oh!
Mr. Blaine Calkins: I appreciate the difficulty in that line of questioning.
Mr. Leckey and Inspector Cormier, I just want to say thank you. Could you pass along my appreciation, on behalf of my constituents, for the work you do? I represent a large rural riding in central Alberta, and we've had some issues with some seizures of a lot of contraband cigarettes that were taken from a first nations band that was storing the cigarettes in a band-owned facility on reserve. Due to some provincial excise tax issues, it resulted in a large seizure and forfeiture. I know it's difficult work.
Mr. Leckey, you said there were a lot of seizures in 2012, about 2,300 worth over $3 million. How are things going in 2013? The information that I have from the library shows that in late 2007-08, the amount of contraband coming in was on the rise. We had the announcement of the RCMP task force and the strategy that's been talked about, and it seems to be on the decrease, yet it is still a fairly significant issue.
Where are we in 2013? Do you have any updates for us?
:
That's very interesting. The information I have shows that the production in Ontario and Quebec is ramped up for the legal cash crop that's grown in Canada. The reason this market is growing is our export markets in places like China and Korea. We have more contraband coming in and more legal production going out. It seems like an odd situation.
When this law is passed, the CBSA will have jurisdiction under the Excise Act. Without these provisions that we're talking about today, when you found someone, you would hand the investigation over to the RCMP. Yet the reality is, without the Criminal Code and the amendments being proposed right now, the only way you could pursue an investigation and a charge would be through the Excise Act.
Now we have Criminal Code provisions that we hope are going to be adopted unanimously by Parliament. I would be interested in seeing anybody who would vote against this. The reality is you would have to hand this over specifically to the RCMP. I don't think any other police force in Canada has jurisdiction when it comes to the Excise Act. Now, however, at any port of entry, whether it's the RCMP or some other local police force, any police officer can investigate and pursue Criminal Code offences.
Can you describe how that's going to change the nature of the relationship that you have? I know you have a close relationship with the RCMP right now, but you'll have to expand those relationships with other police forces, where other police forces would be the closest jurisdiction to help you with this.
Thank you very much for inviting us to make comments on this bill.
As you may be aware, we made a similar presentation last spring to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.
My name is Brian David Tahononsoka:tha, and I am from the snipe clan. I am an elected chief with the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne, which is the elected government for the northern portion of the Akwesasne community.
The community of Akwesasne is located about 120 kilometres southeast of Ottawa. It is about 120 kilometres in distance away from Montreal. The territory is located along the St. Lawrence River near the city of Cornwall. It's intersected by the international borderline between the United States and Canada.
As most of you are aware, it is a multi-jurisdictional working environment. Part of our community is in the United States, part is in Canada, part is in the province of Quebec, and part is in Ontario. This is mostly not by our making but due more to the way constitutionally Canada evolved with Upper and Lower Canada, which were later defined as Quebec and Ontario. Naturally the international border has created the international line through our community. That gives rise to some of the situations we find ourselves in.
Because of our unique geography and close proximity to urban centres such as Ottawa, Toronto, Syracuse, Boston, and Philadelphia, it provides a prime opportunity for crime families to take advantage of this geographically strategic area in order to move goods back and forth across the line. We saw the bulk of that happen in the early 2000s up until about 2009. I understand from the previous presentation that there was a peak in 2009 and it's slowly declining, probably being picked up by the CBSA enforcement agencies at the border.
Part of the issue that we have, quite frankly—you all have a copy of my speech and I'll leave that for reference, hopefully—is that our community made a huge, large investment in ensuring that the St. Lawrence River is a safe environment to recreate in. That river means a lot to us. It probably defines our identity and who we are. Most of us as young people grew up with that river. We made a living off that river. We fished in the river. We trapped off the river. We used the river for transport.
Periodically throughout history we have these waves. From the 1930s with prohibition there was the movement of liquor into the United States. In the 1960s there was the movement of soft drugs, and the movement of gasoline. Now we find ourselves dealing with the movement of what is considered to be contraband tobacco by the authorities. I say “by the authorities”, because in a roundabout way, we don't really consider that as contraband until it leaves the territory.
The investment we made was to clear that river to ensure that we again had some sense of ownership over it so that we can conduct our customary activities over a 24-hour period. There was a period of time when it was absolutely dangerous for community members to go out onto the river at night and conduct any sense of, let's say, fishing or transportation at night because we didn't know who was out there. They could be from Akwesasne; they could be from Montreal; they could be from any of the crime families that were operating in that area. It was just a dangerous place to be. We've cleaned it up.
Where that comes in is there's a thought that this particular bill, , will have the effect of encouraging those people who have a lot to lose from engaging in trafficking activity.
On the contrary, what it will do is identify those who really don't have a lot to lose, the high-risk people. It will encourage the gang families to again come back out onto the river and make it again a dangerous place. That's what we're concerned about. It's a law that Canada is proposing that will have an impact on our community. Whenever there's an adverse impact on the community, it is at that time that we have to step forward and we have to bring that to the attention of the government. This is the government right here.
One of the other issues we have is that it seems to be that the objective of Canada is to, how would you say, directly disengage the crime families in Canada. At least that was the stated objective in the Senate hearings. If that is the stated objective, then why are we looking at a law that goes after traffickers? Why are we not looking at a law that goes after the crime families? Why are we not looking at a law that is a RICO-style law, as they have in the United States? Why is there not a law on the table that talks about going after the crime families in Canada? Why are we looking at a law that is at the lower end of the totem pole, that has low impacts and just goes after the symptomatic issues that are associated with this type of activity?
It would seem to me that we should be looking at a law that is much more dynamic and more direct, but on the other hand, how you intend to approach this is entirely up to Canada. We're here because we're concerned with the impact this will have on our communities.
In terms of policing, this could have an adverse effect on the manner in which we police our communities. Our policing services have not received any significant increase since 2004, and even at that time they were underfunded. The police agencies were established to basically provide road patrol. We are not able to patrol community. You read in the paper all the time that 60% of the activity is on the river. We are not equipped for marine patrol, yet we are being asked to conduct and engage in activities and be responsible for those activities without substantive and equitable funding for it. It's an issue.
The other issue I bring to the table comes from a slightly different area. It was just a while back that we had a Supreme Court decision. I think it was the Gladue decision. In that decision, the Supreme Court basically said that if there is a native person convicted of a crime, then what needs to be considered by the judge in the sentencing exercise are the cultural and socio-economic factors. That was put into practice. We have in place bilateral agreements between Akwesasne and Quebec and between Akwesasne and Ontario for diversion programs, for community sentencing programs.
This bill has no accommodation for that. In fact, it appears that it degrades the intent of the principles of the Supreme Court in that decision. It does that by introducing minimums and maximums. It takes away the discretion of the judge to divert certain cases back to the community. It criminalizes those cases. In a roundabout way it seems that it's counterproductive to what the Supreme Court's explicit intent was at that time.
These are issues that are of grave concern. These are some of the practical issues that I don't see. If Canada is going to proceed with Bill a very practical question is, what are we talking about in terms of tobacco? How have you defined tobacco? Is tobacco just tobacco? What are we going to do with ceremonial tobacco? What are we going to do in those cases where Akwesasne is planting spiritual tobacco and decides to trade that tobacco with Six Nations or Kahnawake? Somebody said that the police will tell the difference. The police don't know the difference. They don't know the difference. That ceremonial tobacco is an entirely different species and it's not even addressed in this law.
:
I can allude to some of the recommendations that we would suggest.
We appreciate what Canada is trying to accomplish in response to the trafficking of unregulated tobacco. Akwesasne is also trying to rectify the situation, although we are going about it in a different way. The development of a governance structure and our combined efforts are likely to provide a better path for the future. The following represents our recommendations in response to Bill .
Honour the initiatives that are currently in development between Ontario and Quebec in Akwesasne. The initiative hopefully will answer many questions that are present in such areas as manufacturing, retail, wholesale, and trade with other first nations.
Allow for the development of an Akwesasne tobacco law and the development of governance structures. The cooperative effort to develop such structures is a far more effective answer than increased fines and mandatory jail sentences which will only add to aboriginals who are already overrepresented in the prison system.
Develop a federal protocol with Akwesasne which recognizes Akwesasne's justice programs, such as the Kanikonri:io or good minds program which is in operation as we speak. This protocol could act as a partnership in seeking cooperative resolutions on the issue of tobacco governance.
If moneys are to be spent in enforcement, add moneys to first nations policing. We have 23 miles of islands that border right into Quebec, into Lake Saint Francis. The expectation is that our police department enforce this jurisdictional area, of which we will not give up our jurisdictional rights. You had answers on meeting with CBSA and RCMP. Recently, I was on the police commission for two terms and I explained to the chief of police that the way the RCMP gets their money is through stats. We've been handing over all of the tobacco seizures to the RCMP. This is not right. We are undermanned in our police, and underequipped, and you expect us to be as effective as the outside. We cannot do that under the current operating conditions.
Throughout Ontario we belong to all the policing associations, the aboriginal police officers, the Canadian police boards. We have needs that far exceed other areas but they are not being addressed by Canada. We've been asking for Canada's help for many years now. We've asked questions. Assistance has not been forthcoming.
This bill will criminalize a whole generation of Mohawk people. You know that we live on a border and a great many of our people work on both sides of the border. We create America's skylines and Canada's skylines. This is what you see, but you never see the men working on it. This is our people. A great majority of them work in New York City. If you criminalize these people, they will not be able to work there because of the licensing requirements from the port authorities of New York, which controls the bridges and most of the buildings in Manhattan and the surrounding community. There will be no employment. This is not what this bill is intended to do. It will push us back into a Depression era mentality and that will open up a whole new can of illicit worms.
If Canada wants to assist, then fund this program. Fund our needs so that we may combat this illegal activity. You lose millions of dollars in tax revenue. A portion of that which you've lost, which you've identified in your stats, will go a long way to stop that which is a concern to all of us at this table.
Thank you.
:
Thank you for having me here and listening today.
My name is Gina Deer. I'm one of the chiefs. I'm from Kahnawake. My document has been submitted, so I'll just touch on some of the points that we have submitted.
There are many challenges that have been imposed on our first nations that continue to hamper our progress towards full recognition and realization of our rights and interests. These challenges include the legacy of residential schools, traumatic and illegal expropriations of land, and the legacy and continued imposition of the Indian Act and other legislation that fails to take into account our history, our rights, and our grievances. Bill is one of those.
The Mohawks of Kahnawake have an inherent and aboriginal right pertaining to the production, transportation, trade, sale, and regulation of tobacco products. The Mohawks of Kahnawake assert these as inherent rights, but also as aboriginal rights under Canadian law.
The Mohawks of Kahnawake have historically and continuously engaged in the production, transportation, sale, and regulation of tobacco products for various purposes, including cultural practices, personal use, personal subsistence, trade, and for commercial gain. These practices are and always have been an integral part of our distinctive culture as Mohawk.
Bill proposes an infringement on our inherent aboriginal and treaty rights pertaining to the production, transportation, sale, and regulation of tobacco products. This application of proposed section 121.1 of the Criminal Code of Canada and corresponding mandatory minimum sentences to Mohawks of Kahnawake would constitute an unjustified infringement of our inherent aboriginal and treaty rights.
This bill is going to put people in jail. We bring up residential schooling because the residential schooling institutionalized people, our children. We had a great breakdown in our community. Simple things like hugging your children didn't happen. The effects were long-lasting, and then the government apologized for what they had done.
Yet, this bill just calls to reinstitutionalize people again, to take the mothers and the fathers and put them in jail. There's another breakdown in the family. Now the children will suffer again, growing up without a father. Does anybody know what it's like to grow up without a parent, a mother, a father? That's the effect this bill is going to have on our community and our people. How long will it take Canada to realize again that this wasn't the answer?
We already have an overpopulation of native inmates in our prison systems here in Canada. The prison systems were given recommendations on how to help rehabilitate inmates, and even that's failed. When we look at this as the answer, I can't comprehend where they come up with that: putting people in jail for what they believe and have known to be their rights.
In Kahnawake a lot of people have understood that as long as they practise within their own jurisdiction their right of the sale and trade of tobacco, they're not committing a crime, because it's not their duty to collect taxes. It's the duty of the people who come to our community to purchase it to remit those taxes. Nobody believed they were committing a crime.
We have a good economy around Kahnawake. We have nine municipalities that benefit from this trade, not just Kahnawake. If you look at all of the economic development, the stores, the growing economy in Châteauguay, Candiac, Ville Sainte-Catherine, it's had a positive effect for everybody there.
They talk about the criminal element and criminal organizations. They haven't just infiltrated the tobacco industry. Look what's happening in Montreal. There's the Charbonneau commission. They've infiltrated everywhere, right next door to us, right across the water, our neighbours, but Kahnawake seems to be highlighted as a spot for organized crime. Kahnawake works very hard to keep that element out.
One of the proposed solutions that Kahnawake has is for Canada to work with Kahnawake, to sit down and recognize the fact that Kahnawake has jurisdiction over our own territory. Let us make the laws that are needed to combat the criminal element, because that's how Kahnawake sees us doing this. We need to regulate and create laws within our community to protect ourselves and an industry that's been created in Kahnawake.
If you look back in history, you'll see that we as the native people are the ones who introduced tobacco. It was taken back to England to the Queen at one point. It was given by the native people. I had an elder say to me, “Gina, can you imagine if our moccasin making was a lucrative business? What would they do then?” This is something we've always had in our entire history and now we're going to be criminalized for practising something we've done throughout time.
We feel it is the responsibility of Canada to work with Kahnawake on a nation-to-nation or government-to-government basis. Canada gave permits to people in Kahnawake, licensed them to be tobacco manufacturers. They came to Kahnawake and they did inspections at these manufacturing places. They collected the taxes, and then they walked away. They didn't fulfill their part, which would have been to sit down with Kahnawake, Canada, and Quebec and discuss the transport of that tobacco. We were allowed to produce it, but we weren't allowed to transport it. It doesn't make any sense. It's not logical. Once they tried to transport it, they were arrested.
We've been here before. It's been discussed before. This bill was Bill previously.
We would like to take the opportunity to briefly address three common points that were raised by senators during Mohawk Council of Kahnawake's presentation earlier this year.
The first is the link between the tobacco industry on first nations lands and organized crime, which I just spoke about.
The Chair: You have about a minute left.
Chief Gina Deer: Okay.
Another is the sale to minors. That's where the implementation of the laws and the regulations comes in. That's something Kahnawake has been working on and the community has been pushing hard for, especially in light of this bill, I have to say. It's the major concern right now in Kahnawake.
In conclusion, we suggest that the federal government seize the opportunity to work with first nations to resolve this issue, and either stop or delay the passing of this bill or alternatively, suspend the application of these amendments until such time as an agreement is reached on a regulatory regime.
That's it.
:
Thank you for the question.
Let's go back a couple of years. A couple of years ago, we had young people who couldn't find jobs in and around our community, and it wasn't just Akwesasne Mohawks. In that whole area, there's very high unemployment. Because of the unemployment, skilled, educated people who were involved in the transportation of tobacco products across the St. Lawrence and elsewhere were getting caught. These were people who would otherwise have jobs. If they had been provided an opportunity to secure a job that was long term, that had security for their families, they probably would not have been on the river at all. There's a counter-argument that can be made here, that maybe the solution to this is economic development.
Where I was going with the other argument is if Bill has the impact of increasing the risk of that particular activity, those people who have a lot to lose, in terms of their investment in education, in terms of their position and social structure, the family they have, probably won't get involved in that activity, which is probably good. The flip side of the coin is that it leaves a vacuum. Who will get involved in that kind of activity? It will not be the people who have a lot to lose. It will be the people who don't have anything to lose, and those are the hardened criminals, who are members of these criminal families. Where are we going to find them? We're going to find them back on the St. Lawrence.
At least we had something that was manageable the last time around. This time around we could end up with a war out in the river. What we're concerned about is the safety and security of our community. That's the backlash, the adverse impact with Bill .
Does that answer your question, sir?
:
Our local communities, stakeholders you may say, the communities that abut Akwesasne on both sides of the border, have the same issues that we have. This is not strictly an Akwesasne issue.
You have local towns in St. Lawrence County and Franklin County that are inundated with drugs that are coming back from Mexico into the United States. They come in from Brooklyn, New York City. It's so bad that they sent one of their sheriffs from New York City and a chief of police to come and look at the border in Akwesasne. They're going to do a report that you guys will never see.
This is what I mean. Canada does their investigations. The United States does an investigation. You don't share any of this information. We're stuck here in the middle, asking for help from both sides. You create laws, criminalize the people who are stuck in the middle, which people come through.
In its heyday, and you heard the statistics earlier from the CBSA. We live on a bay in the St. Lawrence River. People came and knocked on every door that had a boat parked on the river. These were your people, Quebec, Ontario, Italians, foreign people, asking, “Can you take this across the river? Can you help me do this? Can you help me do that?” The men are working out of the country and the women have to take this—and there's a psychological effect on our women folk—because the men are gone.
This is the type of industry that's out there. They're mingling right here in this town and every town that's large enough to host these illicit individuals. Yet you want to criminalize the mules and not deal with the issue at hand.
Our people in Akwesasne, on the map you might as well put a black mark right across it because this is what we have to deal with at the public relations level. We're trying to create a legitimate economy through economic development, honest economy, development dollars. Yet we have to fight for this. We're asking Canada for assistance to turn this thing around and let our people go back to work like we used to. Let them have their jobs. They were proud ironworkers. When you're on the iron, 60, 70, 100 floors up, you're that much closer to the Creator than you are down here. You're above the birds that used to carry our messages. Now you're one-on-one with the Creator. This is what we're asking, the return to that life.
:
Thank you very much for those questions.
Thank you, panel, for your testimony today. The presentations were excellent.
Just so you know, your presentations were not circulated because they need to be in both official languages for us to be able to circulate them. I would encourage members of the committee to look at the Senate minutes on the discussion of the bill there. If you want to look at the testimony that was given—
Mr. Bob Dechert: Can we get them translated?
The Chair: Well, we can try. We'll get them translated and to you as soon as possible, but that's why they were not circulated, just so you know.
With that, I remind members that we will be meeting next Tuesday. If you have amendments, it would be appropriate to have them to us for Tuesday, and next Thursday we'll do the clause-by-clause study.
Thank you very much.
This meeting is adjourned.