PACC Committee Meeting

Notices of Meeting include information about the subject matter to be examined by the committee and date, time and place of the meeting, as well as a list of any witnesses scheduled to appear. The Evidence is the edited and revised transcript of what is said before a committee. The Minutes of Proceedings are the official record of the business conducted by the committee at a sitting.

For an advanced search, use Publication Search tool.

If you have any questions or comments regarding the accessibility of this publication, please contact us at accessible@parl.gc.ca.

Previous day publication Next day publication

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Public Accounts

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, February 17, 2003

1530

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance))

Ms. Maria Barrados (Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada)

1535

The Chair

Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance)

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian (Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources Development)

1545

The Chair

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

1550

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Mr. Charles Nixon (Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Insurance, Department of Human Resources Development)

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Mr. Charles Nixon

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

1555

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

The Chair

Ms. Maria Barrados

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ)

Ms. Maria Barrados

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Maria Barrados

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Charles Nixon

1600

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Charles Nixon

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Charles Nixon

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Maria Barrados

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Ms. Maria Barrados

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.)

Mr. Charles Nixon

1605

The Chair

Ms. Maria Barrados

Mr. Steve Mahoney

Ms. Maria Barrados

Mr. Steve Mahoney

Ms. Maria Barrados

Mr. Steve Mahoney

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Steve Mahoney

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

1610

The Chair

Mr. Monte Solberg

Mr. Charles Nixon

Mr. Monte Solberg

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Monte Solberg

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Monte Solberg

Mr. Lu Fernandez (Acting Director, Investigation and Control Operations, Department of Human Resources Development)

Mr. Monte Solberg

Mr. Lu Fernandez

Mr. Monte Solberg

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

1615

Mr. Monte Solberg

Mr. Charles Nixon

Mr. Monte Solberg

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Mr. Roger Gaudet (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ)

Mr. Lu Fernandez

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Lu Fernandez

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Lu Fernandez

1620

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Roger Gaudet

Mr. Lu Fernandez

The Chair

Mr. Ivan Grose (Oshawa, Lib.)

Ms. Maria Barrados

The Chair

Mr. Ivan Grose

The Chair

Ms. Maria Barrados

The Chair

Mr. Ivan Grose

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

1625

Mr. Ivan Grose

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Ivan Grose

The Chair

Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Canadian Alliance)

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Paul Forseth

The Chair

Mr. Lu Fernandez

1630

Mr. Paul Forseth

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.)

Ms. Maria Barrados

1635

Mr. Peter Simeoni (Principal, , Office of the Auditor General )

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

1640

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

1645

The Chair

Mr. Steve Mahoney

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Ms. Maria Barrados

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

The Chair

Mr. Charles Nixon

1650

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

1655

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Mr. Ivan Grose

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Ivan Grose

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Ivan Grose

1700

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Lu Fernandez

The Chair

Mr. Lu Fernandez

The Chair

Mr. Lu Fernandez

The Chair

Ms. Suzanne Therrien (Director, Office of the Auditor General )

The Chair

Mr. Lu Fernandez

Ms. Suzanne Therrien

The Chair

Ms. Suzanne Therrien

The Chair

Mr. Lu Fernandez

The Chair

Mr. Roger Gaudet

1705

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

1710

Mr. Charles Nixon

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

Mr. Philip Mayfield

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

1715

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian

The Chair

Ms. Maria Barrados

The Chair

Mr. Philip Mayfield

The Chair

Mr. Philip Mayfield

The Chair

CANADA

Standing Committee on Public Accounts

NUMBER 014

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Monday, February 17, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1530)

[English]

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

The orders of today are, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(e), consideration of chapter 1, “Human Resources Development Canada--The Integrity of the Social Insurance Number”, of the September 2002 Report of the Auditor General of Canada.

Our witnesses this afternoon are, from the Office of the Auditor General, Ms. Maria Barrados, the assistant auditor general; Mr. Peter Simeoni, the principal from the office; and Ms. Suzanne Therrien, a director of the office.

From the Department of Human Resources Development, we have Maryantonett Flumian, associate deputy minister; Charles Nixon, acting assistant deputy minister, insurance; and Lu Fernandez, acting director, investigation and control operations.

So there we are. We will start off with our usual opening statement from the Auditor General's office.

Ms. Barrados.

Ms. Maria Barrados (Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this opportunity to present the results of our audit on the integrity of the social insurance number, the SIN.

With me today are Peter Simeoni and Suzanne Therrien, who are responsible for this audit work.

We carried out this audit to determine whether the government was safeguarding and strengthening the integrity of the SIN. We followed up on the concerns we had raised in our 1998 report on SIN management, and also based our work on the reports to the House of Commons on the SIN by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development. These reports were very useful to us in the course of our work.

This is what we found. When we began, we expected to find that the problem reported in the past would have been largely resolved. Instead, we found that while there had been progress on certain issues since 1998, many others had not been addressed.

On the one hand, the government has reaffirmed its policy that the SIN is to be used only as an account number for authorized federal programs. To help protect personal information, including the SIN, outside the federal government, it is implementing the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act.

On the other hand, we again found serious weaknesses in the control and issuing of SINs, which led us to conclude that HRDC has not done enough to safeguard and strengthen the integrity of the SIN.

[Translation]

We believe that HRDC respects neither the spirit nor the rules of the Employment Insurance Act when it comes to issuing social insurance numbers since they only require a single document as proof of citizenship. Since more than one document is usually necessary to verify both aspects, we fear that, for most of the SIN numbers issued since 1998, the identity and citizenship of the applicants was not properly verified.

We have some doubts as to the reliability of certain documents accepted by HRDC as proof of eligibility for a social insurance number. For example, we have noted that they accept outdated passports, baptism certificates, as well as photocopies of these documents and others.

There are insufficient controls over the SIN issued to people who are not Canadians or permanent residents, namely, series 900. For those social insurance numbers, as for the regular SIN, HRDC did not go far enough to establish the identity of the applicants. Nor did the department ask the applicants to establish why they needed a SIN, even though the requirement is stipulated in the regulation.

¹ (1535)

[English]

The reliability and completeness of information in the social insurance register, the database of all SIN records, also remains a problem. While HRDC made some improvement after 1998, we found that it still has not dealt adequately with several issues. For example, as part of improving the integrity of the register, the department should determine why the number of usable SINs for people over 20 years of age exceeds the census figure by 5 million.

The following are issues the committee may wish to pursue.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to note that the department accepted all of our recommendations and has produced an action plan for dealing with them. I believe that this plan has been provided to the committee. While the plan is a step in the right direction, the next order of business is making sure the government has committed the necessary resources to this effort. The committee may wish to ask the officials from HRDC how much the action plan will cost, whether it is fully funded, and if it is not, what the consequences are.

There may be some confusion about what the department means when it says that 2.6 million SINs were deactivated in October of last year. It is our understanding that these SINs can still be used to access federal benefit programs except employment insurance, without triggering an investigation. The committee may wish to ask the officials from HRDC to clarify the status of these SINs.

In addition, the committee may wish to ask the officials from HRDC the following questions. What assurance can they provide that other departments will fulfill their responsibilities under the action plan? When do they expect to have fully carried out the plan? How and when do they plan to comply with the Employment Insurance Act and regulations in determining the citizenship and identity of SIN applicants? And what plans do they have to assess the reliability of documents they accept in support of SIN applications and to check the validity of the documents with the authorities that issued them?

Finally, the committee may consider asking the department to provide regular progress reports showing whether the elements of the plan are on time and on budget.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening statement. We would be pleased to answer the committee's questions.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Barrados.

Now we'll turn to Maryantonett Flumian, the associate deputy minister of HRDC, for her opening statement.

Mr. Mayfield, you have a point of order.

Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian Alliance): Perhaps I could have a copy of Madame Flumian's report. Usually we have a printed copy available beforehand.

Thank you very much, my apologies.

Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance): I have two. Of course, I was given one last week, so someone can have one of mine.

The Chair: Okay, does everybody have a copy of the report?

Okay, you may proceed, Ms. Flumian.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian (Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources Development): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Translation]

Thank you for inviting me to explain what Human Resources Development Canada is doing to protect the integrity of the SIN.

Last fall, the Government of Canada accepted recommendations made by the auditor general as they related to the SIN and instituted new measures to protect the integrity of the number.

I would like to assure the committee that HRDC has worked very closely with the auditor general to devise an action plan in response to very specific concerns.

Before introducing some of these initiatives, I would like to dispel certain misconceptions about the social insurance number and reiterate the government position as it relates to the SIN.

[English]

Since 1964, the SIN has been used as a file identifier for specific government programs. Neither the number nor the card was meant or designed to be used for personal identification. The Auditor General has noted that the SIN is used outside the federal government for a variety of private sector interests; however, the AG also noted that the government has introduced a Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act to help protect personal information, including the SIN. The Auditor General reports that she is satisfied with the progress the government has made to address the widespread use of the SIN.

The AG report also referred to a discrepancy of 5 million between the number of SINs and the adult Canadian population reported by Statistics Canada. Since 1998, HRDC has established that 3.2 million of these SINs have not been used in at least five years. If an SI number has not been used for five years, it will be deactivated so it cannot be used to access federal programs. Between the date the census figures were produced and the time the Auditor General counted the number of SINs on the social insurance register, approximately 700,000 more SINs had been issued. Finally, the number of Canadians living and working or studying abroad, but who are not represented in the census, could easily make up that remaining difference.

The Auditor General was concerned that the additional number of SINs could be used to access federal benefit programs. We will ensure that they are not.

Now I would quickly like to outline the action plan. This plan forms the basis of our requirements to balance the needs of Canadians for improved public security with streamlined access to government services. Amongst other issues, the plan focuses on public awareness, strengthening the SIN application process, improving the integrity of the social insurance register, and building on the partnerships we must forge in order to make this plan work.

Let me take a moment to share our vision for the SIN that takes us beyond the action plan. Our vision is to manage the SIN as an end-to-end process, from application, to issuing a card, to investigating possible misuse, thereby ensuring the highest levels of data integrity in the social insurance register. We can foresee a time soon when any person born in Canada will be able to apply for a SIN at birth or, more rightly, their parents will for them. We can foresee a temporary SIN being issued at the same time a person receives permission to enter the country to work, and we're going to move to do that very soon. And we also envisage a time when we will validate clients' SINs with the social insurance register when clients seek access to our programs and services.

We will take, and the AG has commented on this, an integrated risk management approach to maintain integrity for our client-related activities and interactions. This framework of risk management will form the basis to ensure appropriate prevention, control, quality insurance, and investigation activity across all HRDC programs.

The accuracy of the social insurance register data and the consistent application of rigorous integrity standards will be the cornerstone of the successful implementation of our integrity framework. Managing the SIN and the social insurance register requires a continuous improvement strategy, as requirements are constantly changing and we need to adapt to these changes.

Communications with the public is central to explaining immediate issues relating to the SIN and to realizing the longer term. Public awareness is important because we believe that a knowledgeable public is fundamental to ensuring the proper use of the SIN.

A SIN public awareness campaign was completed last year. To evaluate the impact of our campaign, we conducted focus tests on the effectiveness of our communications products. A survey is being conducted this month to assess the general public's awareness and understanding of the responsibilities around the SIN. Based on that evaluation, a communications strategy will be developed and implemented. We direct our messages towards specific groups within the general public, such as employers, banks, credit companies, and young adults who are just entering the workforce. In the interim, we will soon be communicating with key stakeholders about the introduction of the expiry date on the 900-series SIN cards.

[Translation]

I would now like to explain the measures introduced by HRDC since October 8, 2002.

As you know, the auditor general was concerned about the possibility that inactive SINs could be used to defraud the government of certain benefits.

HRDC suspended 3.2 million inactive social insurance numbers. Now, if one of these SIN appears on an employment insurance application, it is flagged by the system and it is investigated.

We intend to do the same thing for other HRDC programs, as well as the CCRA. These new measures will be introduced next spring, after the next SIN update.

[English]

Last fall the department started a process to amend the regulation allowing for the introduction of an expiry date on all 900-series SINs. These SINs belong to people who are not Canadian citizens and not permanent residents. The expiry date on their SIN would reflect their immigration status.

Subject to regulatory approval, as of April, all new 900-series cards will be issued with expiry dates. All existing 900-series SIN cardholders will have one year to replace their SIN card with one that has an expiry date. As of April 2004, existing 900-series SIN cardholders who have not obtained new cards with expiry dates will have their cards deactivated.

The security and reliability of the social insurance register is essential to safeguarding the integrity of the SIN. The current state of completeness and accuracy of the SIR is being assessed, and plans will be made to improve the level of accuracy. Improving the integrity of the register will allow us to use the information with confidence as we move to greater electronic access to our services. The social insurance register will become a key component to validate client information quickly and seamlessly. It will enable us to provide Canadians with modern, high-quality, timely service that respects the privacy of all their personal information.

[Translation]

All of these initiatives will greatly increase the integrity of the SIN.

We intend to follow up the commitments made in the action plan.

We are working closely with the auditor general and her office and with our partners to further consolidate the integrity of the SIN.

First and foremost, we are seeking a balanced approach that will guarantee Canadians unfettered access to government services while improving the integrity of the program.

Thank you. Mr. Nixon, Mr. Fernandez and I will be happy to answer any questions you have concerning the steps we have taken to protect the SIN.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

¹ (1545)

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Flumian.

Now, the first on is Mr. Mayfield, for eight minutes, please.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank Dr. Barrados and her support staff and Madame Flumian and her staff for being here today.

What concerns me is that there is a sense of déjà vu. I think it was in 1998 that this was all going to be fixed up, and here we are starting the process all over again. As I look through this action plan, although it is largely process and not decision, it concerns me that really we're talking about what we're going to be doing, what we're doing, but there's very little about what has been accomplished in this.

I'm concerned about a number of things. Of course, the longer it takes the more it costs, and the Auditor General has raised the issue of how much the plan will cost and whether it's fully funded and what the consequences of not having adequate funding will be. I'd like you to answer that question.

Before I do that, Mr. Chairman, I believe Dr. Barrados asks seven specific questions in paragraphs 11, 12, 13, and 14 which include asking for regular progress reports to this committee. I'd like, first of all, to ask whether or not committee members can be provided with comprehensive answers to these questions that Dr. Barrados has raised.

Could you agree to that, please, Madame Flumian?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Absolutely.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Thank you very much.

With regard to costs, I notice there is a footnote that says the completion of each initiative is dependent on suitable funding and in some cases on involvement with other departments, which is not really saying it's all going to happen. Could you comment on how well funded this plan is, please?

¹ (1550)

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: You've asked many questions in there, all of which I'll try to take a hand at answering, and if I fall short, I'm sure--

Mr. Philip Mayfield: If we finish before my eight minutes are up, I have some more for you.

The Chair: Please be brief and we'll have some more questions.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: First and foremost, you asked what has indeed been done, and then you asked me to deal with the funding issue and the footnote.

In terms of what has indeed been done on the action plan, in terms of identity documents, one of the first things we had to do was ensure that our staff--and the AG commented on this--had the appropriate tools and training in place to actually be able to deliver these measures we've talked about. Since November we have delivered specialized training to staff on the issuance of social insurance numbers and on the limited documents that are acceptable as proof of identity. We have enhanced our Internet capability to provide images of all proof-of-identity documents and to provide the kind of training staff need to walk through in order to make themselves capable of doing this work appropriately. We have updated and made available to staff a computer-based training module on social insurance numbers. I'll come back to the cost in a moment.

We've also gone some measure in the area of the validation of documents with the sources that are issuing them. We have given considerable attention to signing a letter of intent with the British Columbia Vital Statistics Agency, where we are now in the process of establishing a pilot project where we will verify birth information of B.C.-born SIN applicants so we can go back and forth in terms of ensuring the integrity of that data.

Also, we've initiated discussions to access citizenship data from Citizenship and Immigration, and that's going to allow us to validate the authenticity of Canadian citizenship documents as we interact with that system. I'll come back to those costs in a moment.

In terms of the 900 series, which was an area that was commented on by the AG, we have designed a new SIN card with an expiry date. We've completed all the analysis and testing, and we've developed the systems process work that was required to make this active. As you know, this is something we're going to begin doing in April of this year.

In working with CIC, we've ensured an integrated approach across the two departments regarding the date on the SIN card and the date on the immigration document because it is our desire to line those up. We also had to proceed with the regulatory change, which will be effective March 30, next month, for all new 900-series cards to have that expiry date legally enshrined.

Then we have been working to develop a communications strategy because we have to get this information out to everybody who now needs to know it, including employers, the educational system, and everybody else who has to have interactions with non-permanent residents of Canada who will be issued a 900-series card. I'll come back to costs on that one in a moment.

We've also moved to deactivate SINs, as I said in my opening remarks. We've had to develop new agreements and program specifications with CCRA for the creation and updating of a file of deactivated SINs, so we've had to work with them on that.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: You mentioned a process with the provinces and also now with CCRA. That's part of the process. I have an understanding that you're really busy doing this stuff, but is anything happening? Has anything been accomplished with this?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, indeed. All these things are happening, and some of them will be active, for example the 900-series, as of April 1.

The Chair: Your accomplishments are what Mr. Mayfield was asking for. What have you accomplished so far?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We have, for example, had to work on making the regulatory change, had to move that through the process.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Has that been completed, the regulatory change?

Mr. Charles Nixon (Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Insurance, Department of Human Resources Development): Not yet. It has been pre-published, and we received no comments on that. It is now going back through the process for final approval.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: When will it be completed?

Mr. Charles Nixon: It will be completed in time for March 30, there's no question of that.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: What about the provinces? You mentioned negotiations with the provinces. When will those negotiations be completed?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We have signed an agreement with the Province of British Columbia, and we currently--

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Is that an agreement of intent, or is that an agreement about what's going to happen?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Within the process of verifying data and in the exchange of data, there are still some things that have to be worked out. There are systems implications to all this. You have to at least agree to work together as you're working out the various aspects of how you are to go about implementing this, and B.C. is the first.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: What about with CCRA, for example? Is that still just conversation, or has it actually come to a point where there's agreement and you're going to move on from that?

¹ (1555)

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: There are actual agreements with CCRA, and we will move on because we require their data in order to update the data that feeds the social insurance registry.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: I'd like to come back to this later, but perhaps, because of my time restrictions, you'd like to get right into the costs, please.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: As you know, in past years we spent just over $16 million on the management of the social insurance areas. We have gone through all the proper processes internal to government and have made it all the way except for what will be tabled in supplementary estimates next week, which will be the final say parliamentarians have on approving the proposals we have put forward. The bulk of our expenditures will go to systems expenditures associated with the integrity of the social insurance registry.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: With respect to approvals, does that mean that all the money you're going to need has been requested?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: All the money for this year has been requested, that is correct.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: So your program will not be held up for lack of funding; is that what you're saying?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: That's correct. We're managing as if that funding will indeed come to us under the appropriate parliamentary appropriations with everything this entails, and we have made adjustments to our budgets to manage according to that process.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Could we ask for the assistant auditor general's comment on that, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Do you have a final comment on that, Ms. Barrados?

Ms. Maria Barrados: I just have a quick comment. With respect to the costs, we flagged that as an important issue, and we understand it is working its way through the process. One of the reasons we didn't see improvement was because there had been a plan before, in the past, but it wasn't fully funded. Hence, commitments that were made were not implemented, so it is an important consideration for us.

The other concern we have is, while the action plan is an interesting plan and it has a lot of initiatives in it, it does need to be fleshed out on the costs and on the other players who are involved. Some of the specifics in terms of when things are to be delivered still need to be put in there.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Mayfield.

Mr. Desrochers, please.

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): Thank you very much, Mr. chairman.

Welcome, Ms. Barrados and Ms. Flumian. Thank you for appearing before us this afternoon to tell us about the integrity of the social insurance number, something that made the headlines when the auditor general tabled her report.

Ms. Barrados, was your 2002 report a follow-up or was it new?

Ms. Maria Barrados: It was one of the new status reports. It was a report on the progress that have been made. It was a follow-up, but also a further audit.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: An action plan was quickly tabled a few days before or afterwards, which is still rather good for Human Resources Development. Did you note any change or willingness to change between 1998 and 2002 and the report that was submitted by Human Resources Development Canada?

Ms. Maria Barrados: Yes, of course. In 2000, some commitments were made, but there was no funding for the department and therefore the commitments were not implemented. Now, with this action plan, we see that there is a real willingness to change. There are still details to be worked out, but the approach is different.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Thank you very much.

Ms. Flumian, a great deal has been said about training the employees to take the required corrective actions. Has your department started hiring people and training them, and do you know how much the hiring and training will cost your department?

[English]

Mr. Charles Nixon: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, we have been working very hard on the training of our staff, not only in the context of improving the integrity of the SIN process but to make sure that our staff are ready for the 900-series SINs.

In order to do this we have developed a number of different tools for our staff, such as our SIN handbook and a systems guide we prepared. We have also put together computer-based training, and that has been developed and put in place. Some people were already trained in January, and others will be trained before the end of this fiscal year.

We have a number of documents on the Intranet our staff can use so we will be fully ready to--

º (1600)

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Were any new employees hired or are you doing that with you current staff?

[English]

Mr. Charles Nixon: We have done that with resources we have found internally.

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers: In view of the auditor general's recommendations, do you foresee any hiring or training of extra staff in order to correct the shortcomings that were clearly identified in the 2002 report?

[English]

Mr. Charles Nixon: There will probably be some who will have to be hired.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Just in addition, we have redeployed about 55 staff internally from other areas to this priority area for us so we could make good on the improvements we have talked about today.

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Ms. Flumian, you know that the SIN issue relates to security. There is a bill being examined by cabinet at this time. Do you not think it might be a good idea to further tighten the process for issuing series 900 social insurance numbers for new arrivals and to ensure that there is a follow-up to protect our national security?

[English]

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: A social insurance number is a file identifier for the purposes of those individuals either working in Canada on a temporary basis, attending school in Canada on a temporary basis, or issues of that nature. So we feel that with the discussion we have had with CIC, and with the discussions that are ongoing at the level of officials for the working group on the use of these source documents, we've probably covered most of the areas, or all of the areas, that were raised in the Auditor General's report in regard to the 1-900 numbers.

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Do you have anything to add, Ms. Barrados?

Ms. Maria Barrados: No, I have nothing to add, but the other members of my group may want to say something.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Do you have any comments regarding the monitoring of social insurance numbers and national security?

Ms. Maria Barrados: It was not about security, but about the management of the SIN.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: That may be, but you must not forget that if social insurance numbers are freely available, then we will also have concerns relating to control and national security. I think they go hand in hand.

I have no other questions, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

The Chair: Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Desrochers.

Mr. Mahoney, please, eight minutes.

Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Actually, I want to follow up on the points Mr. Desrochers was making. The bill I think he's referring to is Bill C-17, and that's the new security bill. All departments are impacted: CCRA, Transport, the law enforcement, CSIS, RCMP, Immigration, all of them. And I too would have a question as to whether or not the process for issuing a SIN card has been vetted in light of the new climate that we're living in following September 11 and the potential changes to security of information, etc., that will take place under the regime once Bill C-17 is adopted. It may be amended.

But has there been any interaction in that regard? Have you looked at that?

Mr. Charles Nixon: Certainly we have been working very closely inside the federal government with the interdepartmental working group, and as well with the federal-provincial-territorial council on identity in Canada, in order to assure that. And this applies not only to HRDC and the SIN, but to other departments and other governments, in terms of how they are processing in this new environment, how they are issuing cards, etc. We decided, based on the advice of that federal-provincial-territorial council, to focus our SIN application on key source documents or foundation documents, i.e., a birth certificate and immigration documents.

This council has also recommended that these documents are very important for use in these circumstances and they are requesting that those groups that issue these documents allow them to be verifiable. For instance, we have the capacity now to verify the birth certificate of New Brunswick, because we are connected to them, and we have a letter of intent with British Columbia to enter into work with them.

º (1605)

The Chair: Just a second, Charles. Ms. Barrados has a comment.

Ms. Maria Barrados: The issue of security is outside of the scope of this audit; however, in the audit itself, we do raise concerns about compliance with the legislation and the intent of the legislation, which is very clear on requiring both identification and citizenship. What the audit raises is our concerns that the processes the department is using don't sufficiently do that, and we still have some concerns about the steps that are being taken to ensure both identification and citizenship.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: On a national and possibly international basis, if you were to rank pieces of identification, would a social insurance number be at the top? Or is it strictly tied to federal government benefit programs?

Ms. Maria Barrados: As we point out in the report, the government position is that it is a file identifier, so it's a number. And in the federal government, access to other programs require other forms of identification. The problem is that in this country it is used as a way of establishing identity. So it is used to establish identity in ways that are not really envisioned by the federal government, but that is the way it is used.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: So as a result of that, it needs to be quite secure because it could be used to identify false identities.

Ms. Maria Barrados: The position we are arguing is that the legislation requires it be secure. And as long as the legislation requires it and that's the way people are expecting it to be, that's what should be done.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: Is there any interaction between HRD and CIC on the issue of the identity cards? I know they're not adopted yet and are quite controversial in some quarters, but clearly it's an issue that's going to be coming forward.

It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, it was about three or four years ago on this committee when we talked about social insurance numbers. The reason I remember it is that I remember taking mine out of my wallet and finding out I'd been spelling my first name wrong for 55 years. It was an astounding revelation. And I haven't changed it because I like that double identity. But we talked a lot at that time about one card for everything, about trying to bring the departments together.

Ms. Flumian, is the concept of an identity card with your SIN, and your health card, and perhaps even your driver's licence, things of that nature, too big a job to undertake from your point of view?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: From our point of view, we have not been involved in any such discussions. As you can see, we're working hard to maintain the integrity of the file identifier, known as the social insurance number. So we have not been involved in any discussions to this stage.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: I would like to ask you this. I had an interesting experience in the past couple of months with a woman in my riding who was trying to get a SIN card, a SIN number for her child, and she was informed by HRDC that she could only get it if she could deliver the birth certificate. She actually had a passport, a valid Canadian passport, for the child, but the officials at HRD would not accept that.

When I looked into the regulations, I found out that they in fact would accept a foreign passport, or an expired passport, but they wouldn't accept a current Canadian passport. Is there any truth to that?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes. We currently do not accept Canadian passports and we don't accept those other documents, as well. We took advice from those interdepartmental and other committees that are involved in the use of source documents at federal and provincial levels from both our own internal processes at the Government of Canada level and from discussions that have been taking place between federal and provincial governments on the use of source or foundation documents.

You will recall that over the course of the last summer, at least two jurisdictions served us notice to ask them to stop using documentation that had been issued by them in the form of baptismal certificates, which had been allowed for proof of identity for the purposes of applying for passports. As a result of that information, for the time being we are accepting only source documents. Source documents would be birth certificates or documents that are issued by CIC to individuals coming into Canada.

It is a subject, though, that we're working on with other federal departments at the interdepartmental committee stage and also with other levels of government to ensure, over time, what the best documents for usage are. So we went to the decision because we're always looking for the balance between the integrity of the social insurance number and service to Canadians.

We could have issued very complex instructions saying, accept these passports issued before such and such a time from such and such a jurisdiction, don't accept others. We went to the simplest of those to try to enforce, which is go back to the source document, the foundation document, which is the birth certificate, and for people who were not born in Canada, for documents issued by CIC on that person's entry into the country. So those are the two sorts of documents that we accept for the time being.

º (1610)

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Mahoney.

Mr. Solberg, please. Now we're on round number two. This one is four minutes.

Mr. Monte Solberg: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Of course, Madame Flumian knows I am interested in this issue, especially the question of source documents. You accept a birth certificate, which has no picture on it, and there's really no way of telling that the person who has a birth certificate is the person on the birth certificate. When someone comes in and applies, the only way you have of checking that, according to what you told us on Thursday before the HR committee, is if the person fills out an application form the wrong way, or provides the wrong information or information that doesn't match the birth certificate, or if they have suspicious behaviour. Is that right? That's basically what I think I heard.

Mr. Charles Nixon: There's also any other risk assessment that we might make in the process of reviewing that application, yes.

Mr. Monte Solberg: In the meantime, you're issuing about 100,000 of these every month, and I think you're going to enter into more discussions in September, but by that time there will be 700,000 more social insurance numbers registered, in many cases on the basis of a birth certificate with no picture, no way really of identifying that person.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Many of them would be issued at birth these days, with people applying for a Canada education savings grant and various other things. There are many social insurance numbers actually issued at birth these days.

Mr. Monte Solberg: There are many social insurance numbers issued at birth?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: People are applying for a Canada education savings grant for their child, or grandchild, or whatever, and it is a requirement that a social insurance number be issued in advance of that.

Mr. Monte Solberg: That's good, and it's something I noted that you are working toward in the future, but obviously there are many people who still are getting these. The concern flows from, for instance--and I raised this the last time you were here--when you have a situation like you had in Gatineau-Hull, where these two people obtained 68 social insurance numbers through fraudulent means--it is not identified how they did it--and bilked the student loan system out of about $2.3 million.

First of all, are you familiar with that case? Can you tell me how they went about doing that?

Mr. Lu Fernandez (Acting Director, Investigation and Control Operations, Department of Human Resources Development): That specific instance happened many years ago, actually. I believe it was 1993-94 when they started that. What they were doing was using false immigration documents to subsequently get a valid social insurance number. What we have in place today, with verification with Immigration, would stop that kind of operation.

Mr. Monte Solberg: But it wouldn't stop it with birth certificates if people were falsifying birth certificates.

Mr. Lu Fernandez: Actually, we can check for persons born in New Brunswick at this point in time. We can check on the vital statistics data--

Mr. Monte Solberg: It's fairly narrow, isn't it?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: That's the reason the department entered into discussions and are going to go beyond the discussion phase with British Columbia. We're also currently holding similar discussions with Ontario and Quebec. I might also add that in the last four years we have conducted over 30,000 investigations, so we do have ways of doing risk assessments. It's not against the framework that the Auditor General has asked us to conduct, but we are in the process of bringing greater rigour to that process as well.

º (1615)

Mr. Monte Solberg: It's great to do investigations, but it would be good to have a better preventive, tight system at the front end so that people aren't tempted to defraud the system.

Mr. Charles Nixon: We would like that very much.

Mr. Monte Solberg: That's good, I'm happy to hear that. But it's four years after this whole process began. That's my concern. I think you know that; we have raised this before.

What I'm wondering is, given the problems and given the concerns that have been raised by the Auditor General's office, whose argument is that you're not really in compliance with the act because you're not requiring that there be two different pieces of identification.... I know you say you feel you are in compliance with the act, but if you erred on the side of caution so that you had two separate pieces of identification when people came in, obviously that would be a larger barrier to defrauding the system than what you currently have. Isn't that correct?

The Chair: Ms. Flumian.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: May I respond on that point? This is an evolving area for us. It is one on which we have a committee working. We expect them to be reporting back in September, and I wouldn't be surprised to see us make some changes at that point in time based on their advice.

The other point I would make is that September 11 changed the environment, not only for us but also for the provinces. Some of these agreements were a little difficult to get earlier on. They're becoming a little easier in the dialogue and in the getting of some of these measures now, so hopefully in the not-too-distant future we will be able to check these databases against each other for the kind of accuracy and efficacy that we all want the system to be representative of.

I think that in meeting the Auditor General's concerns, and the concerns of this committee and other committees.... Funding was one of them, and we've gone a long way to secure the funding, and where we think there were any shortfalls we've reallocated internally.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Gaudet, please. You have four minutes.

Mr. Roger Gaudet (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to know how one goes about applying for a social insurance number, whether for a newborn or an immigrant.

[English]

Mr. Lu Fernandez: All of the application information is provided. You can get a social insurance number by providing your birth certificate and by including all of the information that's requested on the application, such as mother's maiden name or full name at birth, your father's full name, the place of birth, and the date of birth. Along with that applicant information, you have to submit the original documents, and the application will be reviewed and processed. There's no charge for an initial social insurance number.

[Translation]

Mr. Roger Gaudet: I have a very simple question. Why do you not immediately give a social insurance number to a newborn child? Every birth is automatically registered.

[English]

Mr. Lu Fernandez: It's actually the parent that submits the application, of course, on behalf of the child, and the social insurance number is attached to the individual child it is issued to. The child does have a social insurance number.

[Translation]

Mr. Roger Gaudet: Why would he request a social insurance number later on if one were issued at birth? The child should be given a card when the birth is registered. That would take care of it.

[English]

Mr. Lu Fernandez: Yes, absolutely. In fact, that's where we would like to go, as Madame Flumian was alluding to in her opening remarks.

We would like to be able to issue a social insurance number at birth. The same information that's used to issue a birth certificate by a provincial vital statistics agency is exactly the kind of information that we are looking for for the social insurance number. And we would like to be able to streamline the entire process so that you get a birth certificate issued that, in essence, becomes your application for a social insurance number, and you get that at birth.

º (1620)

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: In order to do that, we have to have agreements in place with all the provincial governments, because they manage the birth registries and the vital statistics registries in each jurisdiction. That's why it's so important.

We've begun our work with British Columbia, Ontario, Quebec, and we already have arrangements in place in New Brunswick so that those things can synchronize and harmonize right at birth.

[Translation]

Mr. Roger Gaudet: What procedure is followed in the case of immigrants? They can come to Canada and work for a few months, then return home with their social insurance number.

[English]

Mr. Lu Fernandez: They would only need the SIN number if they have an authorization to work by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

What they would do is go through the same procedures. They would fill out the application and they would provide the original documentation that they have from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration that says they are allowed to be in the country.

As of the beginning of April 2003, their cards, which will start with the number 9--we refer to them as 900-series cards--will have an expiry date that is tied to their status in Canada, to their authorization to work in Canada. If their authorization expires at a given point in time, their card will expire at that same time. For those people who currently hold 900-series cards, they will be given a one-year period to go and reapply for a new social insurance card with an expiry date.

The Chair: Okay. Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Gaudet.

Mr. Grose, please, four minutes.

Mr. Ivan Grose (Oshawa, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On this figure of 5 million missing cards or 5 million extra cards, I'm willing to accept your explanation. It seems reasonable about where they are.

Ms. Barrados, I'm intrigued that this figure was ever floated, because I remember at the time it made headlines, and it's one of those things that may test my credibility, but you can't stamp it out. If I use this explanation, no matter what, people aren't going to believe it.

I was wondering why, if the explanation was that easy, that figure was ever floated.

Ms. Maria Barrados: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The reason we carried out the audit test that we did is that we were trying to establish whether or not the social insurance register was valid. That's the requirement, a current, up-to-date, valid social insurance register.

We did the same test in 1998. In 1998 we found a discrepancy of 3.7 million. We repeated the test this time to see if there had been an improvement. It hadn't improved. In fact, the number had become larger.

I can go through the technical explanation of that number. We feel that it is a reasonable test as to the validity of the social insurance register. A lot of it hinges on this issue of the number of dormant files.

There's a big problem in terms of timing, because it is something that was done from 1993 to 1997. HRDC has taken that out and said it's not a problem. In fact, it is a problem, because those things were tested at one time. Now they're going through and seeing if they can actually take them all out.

I don't think they can take them all out. There are some legitimate reasons why people haven't used their social insurance numbers. It's not that easy to make the number go away.

If you'd like us to go through it technically, we can.

The Chair: Ms. Flumian, do you have a comment to make?

Mr. Ivan Grose: I haven't used mine in five years.

The Chair: I'm sure you filed your tax return, Mr. Grose, and you used it.

Ms. Maria Barrados: If you paid taxes, you used it.

The Chair: Ms. Flumian has something to say.

Mr. Ivan Grose: I've used it.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: On that very point, it is a technical area. We want to make sure that we have it right and that there can be agreement between us. We have done two things.

One of them will be ready very soon. We'll use it to update the information of the social insurance registry. We have CCRA doing an update of the information that's actually in there. In other words, they are updating the information against their files and making sure that everybody who hasn't had an interaction with the system is actually reflected in the social insurance registry.

The second thing we've done speaks to some of the numbers in the registry. We're doing a baseline study that Statistics Canada has undertaken for us to make sure that some of the anomalies that line up at census time, compared to the point in time when the Auditor General has come in to do the study, can be accounted for, or not, by them. Once we have the baseline study done, which is also expected within the next couple of months, in June, we will have a baseline from which we will be able to share information between our offices and everybody else who requires this information, so that we can have a better representation of what the number is. Hopefully, there won't be this debate.

º (1625)

Mr. Ivan Grose: I'm not happy with that at all. A figure like that holds the government up to ridicule. I know some of my colleagues over here wouldn't find that the least bit offensive, but it bothers me a bit.

I have another question. I was on this committee quite some time ago. We were appalled, at that time, about how you kept track of births and deaths. Not you personally, but someone told us about reading local newspapers for deaths and all kinds of nonsense concerning the ways in which you found births and deaths. You were going to work with the provinces.

This is quite a while later. You are starting to work with the provinces, especially Ontario and Quebec. It seems to me that it's déjà vu all over again.

What was it, about five or six years ago?.

The Chair: The audit was done, I believe, in 1997. We had the investigation in 1998.

Ms. Flumian, what do you say?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I'm saying I have heard some of the same apocryphal stories about how we used to keep track of those things. We do now. This is why it's so important that we exchange information.

There are two primary users, if you will, of the social insurance registry, we ourselves and CCRA. Between the two of us, we do manage to detect the movements of a lot of Canadians.

We are also already working with New Brunswick, have now signed a memorandum with British Columbia, and have entered into the same discussions with Ontario and Quebec, to synchronize the systems so that we can keep track of all of that kind of data better than we do right now. It becomes automatic, instead of one where we have to do it on an annual basis or go looking for it.

Mr. Ivan Grose: I'm not happy with that either, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: Okay, we'll record it on the record.

Mr. Forseth, you have four minutes, please.

Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Canadian Alliance): Thank you very much.

Certainly, all this business with the provinces certainly seems to be incredibly slow.

We had the premiers here in a meeting with the Prime Minister. We could have had some deals struck then. The provinces have the same issue about too many medical numbers versus how many people they have. It's related to the social insurance number and validating who is supposed to be here, who is supposed to get service and who isn't. Because of the amount of money that's involved, you'd think it would be a much higher priority to get on with it.

You've talked about the establishment of a social insurance register and deleting numbers that are no longer used. We already have bureaucracies in place in every province that issue a death certificate before anything can be done to take care of the person's business. Why can't it be a simple agreement with the provinces that, when a death certificate is issued, automatic notice is sent to the federal government as to what the person's social insurance number is?

The Chair: Ms. Flumian.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: The social insurance register already exists. It's not the creation of a new bureaucracy. It's actually the database that houses all the information on social insurance number recipients, holders. We do have arrangements with the provinces through the Canada Pension Plan to alert the register as to when deaths occur, so that has become a much more automated process. Of course, it's a further check and balance to be able to have the vital statistics agencies also communicate electronically to update that information.

So I think as many things have changed for us as have changed for the provinces since September 11, and a lot of that dialogue has been spurred on and those agreements are becoming much easier to come by.

We are still at the stage, however, where we have to synchronize our systems to be able to talk to each other. So over the next few years we will no doubt be investing some considerable dollars and allowing that to happen, so that we can do that automatic exchange of data to keep those files current and to ensure that we know, at any precise moment, what is happening to any of our social insurance numbers.

Mr. Paul Forseth: It sounds like Mr. Fernandez wants to add something there.

The Chair: Mr. Fernandez.

Mr. Lu Fernandez: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to add that we share some of the same frustrations in terms of the time that it's taking to work to get to these agreements with the provinces. In many cases it's the provinces themselves that have antiquated data systems that aren't ready to move forward to the pace that we're at.

Ontario is a very good example of where it's a huge database, but it's a very old legacy system. They're in the process this fiscal year of modernizing their database and that's why we're talking about starting discussions with them about a similar arrangement, as we have with B.C. for next year.

º (1630)

Mr. Paul Forseth: Sometimes when computer systems can't talk to each other you put something in the mail that's required, because a death certificate is a piece of paper that's produced every time someone dies, right across the country. It would be very easy to simply photocopy that, put the person's social insurance number on it, and put it in the mail.

Now, one of the things I want to ask you about is, what are you doing about trying to protect the social insurance number outside the country?

I drive to Bellingham, Washington, and they're going to sell me a computer. And they say, no downpayment and no payment for 12 months, but in exchange for that they want me to fill out a credit application. “Oh, what's your name, sir, and what's your social insurance number? Because if we have that, we have your credit information and all your stuff and you can be out of here in 15 minutes.” So I say I don't want to give them my social insurance number, being a Canadian--they know that I'm a Canadian. So they say, “That really makes it difficult for us, then. I'll phone my manager.”

So their whole credit system in Washington state is based on the Canadian social insurance number. Obviously that's part of a computer system in the United States that's tied to banking systems around the world.

You know that this has been going on for a long time. What are you doing to protect that and to solve that problem?

The Chair: Mr. Nixon.

Mr. Charles Nixon: We certainly are trying to do something inside Canada to make sure that...to the degree that we can hold sway, at least from a legislative point of view, through the PIPEDA, the Personal Identification Protection and Electronic Documents Act, to ensure that. Part of that will be coming into force on January 1, 2004. It will provide clear legislative direction to businesses in Canada about how they should use, store, and share any personal information, including the SIN. So in that sense, we think this is a very appropriate action that is being taken, and it is supported by the Auditor General.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Mr. Tirabassi, please, four minutes.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I too would like to thank the witnesses for appearing here today.

My question is to Ms. Barrados first, and then to Ms. Flumian as well.

Give me some background, without getting too technical, on exactly how you arrive at some of your conclusions. You must take a sampling of SIN numbers, of persons who are supposed to be the holders, the owners of those SIN numbers, and you must come up with a formula on what the tolerance level is before the program loses its integrity, before it is somewhat inaccurate or very inaccurate, unreliable. Perhaps you could explain what that formula is, in basic terms.

Then, to you, Ms. Flumian, once you have that information and you put all these initiatives in place and they're acted on, do you go back and then put it through the same test as the Auditor General uses?

Finally, do you use any outside comparators? I know it's extremely difficult, that it's the Government of Canada. It's supposed to be the ultimate number. I'm sure banks are very careful with issuing numbers to people; I'm sure they like to track the same number of dead numbers that are out there, and so on.

So perhaps you could please both answer those two questions.

Ms. Maria Barrados: Mr. Chairman, I'll start quickly and then I'll ask my colleagues, Mr. Simeoni and Ms. Therrien, to add to it, since they're the ones who conducted the audit.

We have a fair bit of detail in the audit report itself on how we actually carried out these audits. A big part of this was actually observing how SINs were issued--visiting the regional offices, sitting down with the managers and the front-line staff, observing what it is they do, and then tracing some of those documents to see how the system handles them.

The other thing we did with the $5 million that was referred to earlier was to attempt to estimate the integrity of a system through an estimation process. We counted, we got a population that was in the social insurance register, and with the available data we tried to match what a population number is--this test for reasonableness. This was a repeat of the previous test we did.

We did some comparisons with the United States. The audit team did visit the United States. They were facing a number of the same kinds of issues.

Would you like to expand on that, Peter?

º (1635)

Mr. Peter Simeoni (Principal, , Office of the Auditor General ): s/b Mr. Peter Simeoni (Principal, Audit Operations, Office of the Auditor General of Canada)Of course.

Mr. Chairman, what we specifically did when it came to the social insurance registry was to obtain our own copy of it. The office had the full set of records that the department possesses. They call it SIR. From that we selected relevant fields such as age, for example, which we used in the report.

To our knowledge, there are no tolerances or goals set for the completeness and reliability of that database. In fact, one of the recommendations we make is that the department should do exactly that. They should try to figure out how reliable and accurate they need it to be for their purposes, and then do that.

We resorted to what I'd call commonsense tests, for example, to find out how many people are in the database who have usable SINs and are more than 90 years old. Does that bear any relationship at all to the population of Canada? I think if you look at the report you'll find there really isn't much of a relationship. There are quite a few people over 90 in that database.

So there were tests like that. We think the very first step needs to be to set those goals for reliability and accuracy and figure out how they're going to meet them.

The Chair: Mr. Tirabassi.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: I'd like Ms. Flumian to answer this question.

The Chair: Okay.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Thank you.

Again, when the AG brings these things to our attention, we do take them very seriously, in terms of both the process they've used and whether there is any discrepancy in how we might interpret some of the same things.

Suffice to say we take it so seriously we engaged with Stats Canada to do this baseline study to see if there's a reason we should go to a sampling technique, or if we have a very good indication of what the baseline is from an agency whose reputation is beyond repute, I think, in terms of the work that we would do between us. That's why we have engaged them. In June they'll be coming forward with the findings of their baseline study.

The other thing, of course, is that while we haven't set any targets, the baseline data will tell us something. From that baseline data onward, we're going to make every attempt to make sure all the information in that database is as current as possible.

It could be that the reason there were many over 90, which is not representative of the population, is that we had not put information into the SIR that determined that those numbers were deactivated. In other words, those individuals had died, right? So we'd go back and make sure that all that information has to be verified, authenticated, and demonstrated by another source.

We are working, as I said earlier, with all the vital statistics agencies to make those improvements. We're now running regular updates of the social insurance registry with CCRA to ensure all of their information is kept current with our database. We will do whatever else is required as we go forward to make sure the information is current and kept up to date.

Our biggest challenge as we move forward is to figure out how to operate all these proofs of identity in a world that's going to be more and more electronic in nature. In cases like that, we're watching very closely what's being done in other jurisdictions. We're watching very closely, as you mentioned, how the banking community handles some of these issues, because these issues are going to be real. As Canadians want to access more and more services online, and as this file identifier will be important to identify them in terms of receiving those services, we're going to have to understand what the best and the brightest in the world have done and develop systems that'll allow us to deliver those services while ensuring the integrity of the number and the identity of the individual at the same time.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Flumian.

Mr. Mayfield, you have four minutes, please.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I noticed in the action plan that focus groups will be organized to monitor, evaluate, and improve the effectiveness of communications projects. Focus group discussions were held. A survey will be conducted in February 2003.

I'm thinking about security too. Were the focus groups outsourced? Were they done by someone else? Was a contract let to someone outside the department?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, but they were focus groups on the nature of the kind of information that we were doing in trying to reach Canadians and the communications products. They weren't on security measures. They were to determine whether the campaign that we had run was actually reaching Canadians and if they understood what we were trying to say to them. They weren't focus groups on security matters.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: That may be true. I wouldn't doubt that.

Who received the contracts for that? Can you tell us?

º (1640)

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I don't know, off the top of my head. Does anybody here know?

We'll get you the information.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Could you send it to us?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, we definitely will. We'll send it off first thing in the morning.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Thank you very much.

The reason that I talk about security is that this is only one context for my concern. I remember Bruce Philips, when he was the privacy commissioner, at one time had a headline saying that all your personal, financial, and health information flows back and forth across the continent five times a day.

We have a problem here of trying to get the databases for each department. Now we're talking about the provincial governments being hooked up so the computers can talk to each other. We have an enormous problem. I can't believe the number of people that you add to the file every month.

I'm not critical at all about that. At the same time, what I'm concerned about is the security necessary when this expansion of capacity is so necessary. In the National Post today, Transport is being criticized for putting people's personal information at risk. That's within one department.

What provision have you made to protect this information that is so necessary to you? Are there protocols that are iron clad? Are there outside companies that have been given contracts, as in the case of Saskatchewan, where a company had it and the hard drive went missing?

When we're in an era of developing new identities, the privacy issue is awfully important, it seems to me. Can you comment on that, please?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I can indeed. You should be assured that in any discussions we enter into and any changes we make, we run it past the privacy commissioner and his office to make sure that what we're proposing to do, in all of these cases, does indeed meet, in his judgment, the spirit and the test of the law. We have had discussions on all of the measures that I've talked about and that are laid out in the action plan. So far, we have worked very closely and very well with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. There have been no issues.

We always try to do everything in our power to ensure that the integrity of this information is well guarded.

First thing in the morning, we'll be happy to make available to the committee, through the clerks, who held the contracts. Again, they were contracts for having a better understanding on whether our advertising campaign actually was able to reach Canadians and their understanding of how to treat the SIN. They would be for employers to understand what their requirements are.

For example, you're not allowed to work without having a social insurance number. You have to show a social insurance number within a few days of having received employment. It is the role and responsibility of Canadians to safeguard their social insurance numbers, to know how they should be using them, and to know the importance of the various sectors that have usage of the social insurance numbers, like the banking and credit communities.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: It's a concern, isn't it?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, it is. Therefore, the focus group tasks were in aid of understanding whether the materials that we produced actually reached them. We're going to be receiving information on that. They're working as we speak. We'll have an idea of how successful the campaigns were in the next little while.

No doubt over the course of the next year or so, we'll be beefing up the advertising so that Canadians actually understand the requirements legislatively.

The Chair: These are very long answers, Mr. Flumian. I'm not exactly sure that you've actually done anything. That's the point that most people are saying.

You talk about an awareness program for Canadians so they can use the social insurance number properly. I think those who intend to use it illegally and to defraud the federal government aren't that interested in an awareness campaign. They have figured out how it is done.

What have you done to fix that problem?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Again, there are the many issues we raised from early on in terms of the action plan. They include both the tools and training to our own staff to recognize false documents, the limitation on the number of documents that are acceptable for processing a social insurance number, and how we validate those documents. There's the ongoing work we're doing with the provincial agencies that takes time, for the reasons we've cited. A lot of them have to do with systems compatibility and lining those things up.

We've made changes to the 1-900 series, which will go live and active as of April 1, as soon as we have received the regulatory approvals to put them in place. There's the interdepartmental work we're doing with CIC to ensure the integrity of those immigration documents and that the immigration documents line up with the expiry date on the--

º (1645)

The Chair: I think Mr. Mahoney's or Mr. Solberg's point was that a birth certificate is a document that has no picture or anything else to say this is the person who is holding the piece of paper.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: It would be a baby picture.

The Chair: It would be a baby picture--you're right, Mr. Mahoney. People do grow up, we hope, and the photograph is going to change.

I was going to thank Mr. Mayfield, first of all, because his four minutes were up, but I want to ask some questions of my own. I want to go back to 1997 and the hearing we had in 1998, where we gave specific instructions to HRDC to fix the problem.

The problem basically is that when they introduced the social insurance number in 1966 it was a file number with Revenue Canada. Does everybody agree with that? A file number with Revenue Canada in 1966 meant you owed the government money, so you didn't want to have more than one SIN.

But as time went on, having a file number with Revenue Canada meant you'd get a cheque in the mail. I believe the Auditor General pointed out that one person had 72 SINs, and he estimated that the fraud to Revenue Canada was in the region of $100 million to $200 million a year.

What have you done--past tense--to fix that? What has been done? How have you closed the gate? Don't tell me what you're going to do. I want to know what you have done.

Mr. Charles Nixon: Since 1998, if I can go over a list of things we have done since then, we have tripled the number of investigations we were carrying out at that time. Now we're doing well over 7,000 of those a year.

The Chair: You're doing 7,000 investigations a year?

Mr. Charles Nixon: Yes.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: And we've done over 30,000 in the last four years.

The Chair: Okay. Next?

Mr. Charles Nixon: We have established a dedicated social insurance number investigation service unit to monitor and improve the quality of SIN investigations. We have developed specialized training to provide investigators with the skills and knowledge to investigate SIN abuse. We have provided staff with tools around recognizing fraudulent documents--

The Chair: Such as?

Mr. Charles Nixon: Such as a document guide, which is updated continuously with facsimiles of fraudulent documents people have tried to bring forward. That is readily accessible for our staff through electronic means.

The Chair: Okay. Next?

Mr. Charles Nixon: We have ultraviolet lamps to allow them to assess on the spot whether documents may have been tampered with. We have developed a new fraud screening program, called the social insurance number applicant review program, to identify suspicious SIN applications. That is in place right now. We conducted an awareness campaign in 2000 and 2001, which was targeted at specific groups--

The Chair: Well, we talked about that--banks and so on.

Okay. The Auditor General estimated that the losses were between $100 million to $200 million a year. What do you estimate your losses are today?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I won't speak for the Auditor General, but I don't remember such an estimate.

Ms. Maria Barrados: We made an earlier estimate in the report we tabled in 1997, but we didn't do that kind of thing this time. I would like to say that we looked at the progress that had been made and felt it wasn't satisfactory overall. Specific things had been done but there wasn't enough progress, hence this report.

The Chair: When I look at your performance report for the period ending March 31, 2002, on page 44 you state you started discussions to verify birth and death information from provincial and territorial vital statistics agencies. Why did you wait until that year, when you knew in 1997 and 1998 you had a problem?

Mr. Charles Nixon: They had no capacity to talk to us before then.

The Chair: No, you said you initiated discussions.

Mr. Charles Nixon: Well, I didn't write it, so I can't--

The Chair: Somebody wrote it. Your department wrote it. This is about social insurance numbers.

Mr. Charles Nixon: We started talking to them then because it was something we could interact with them on at that point in order for them to be able to sign up with us, in order to make that kind of exchange.

Since 1998 we have had those kinds of connectivities with New Brunswick. We have been working with British Columbia. We have now just--

º (1650)

The Chair: My question concerned the damning report you received in the 1997 Auditor General's report, and we really took serious issue with this in 1998. Why did you wait until the year ending March 31, 2002, in order to, in your own words, initiate discussions with the provinces?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Mr. Chair, I can only speculate because, as you know, I wasn't there at the time. I'm assuming that there wasn't the same capacity or desire on their part to want to begin those discussions as there was on our part.

With the province that took an interest, New Brunswick, we made an agreement. With the others, we continue to dialogue and are now close to concluding it with them.

The Chair: You also state: “We have reviewed and began to change the documents that we accept to approve identity in the SIN application process.” This was in the year ending March 31, 2002, yet you knew this in 1997. Why the wait? Why four years?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I think those discussions were ongoing, and September--

The Chair: No, you don't say that. You say you “reviewed and began to change”. This is your document.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We began to change more recently, after 9/11, with the advice we were getting from the interdepartmental working committees and with the advice we were getting from several jurisdictions, namely Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec, as I mentioned earlier, about the usage of some of what had been considered source documents before that.

The Chair: You stated that you take these issues seriously and that you have Stats Canada doing a baseline study because, as Mr. Simeoni pointed out, the number of people over the age of 90 on your files is totally disproportionate to the number of people of that age alive in Canada today. When did you initiate that study?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We initiated it as a follow-up to our discussions during the last audit.

The Chair: When was that?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I don't have a specific date for you, but I can certainly make one available to you.

The Chair: Would you, please.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, I will, tomorrow morning, first thing.

The Chair: It seems to me that everything you've been saying today has been predicated on changes since 9/11--September 2001--but this audit was done in 1997. It doesn't seem that you took this committee seriously in 1998, when it did its report, or that you said this thing has to be fixed. Why did you wait until something catastrophic happened before you took the issue seriously?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: There was only one intervening report by the AG between those two, but the department had begun to do work, perhaps not sufficiently speedily enough in hindsight and certainly not in a manner that was appropriately funded.

Since then, we've taken all measures necessary to either secure the funding or to reallocate funding internally. As I said earlier, we've redeployed 55 additional people to help us out in the process, and we're putting together a longer-term business plan and a business case that will secure the long-term funding, which shows that we're serious and that we intend to get the job done.

The Chair: Does anybody else have any more questions?

Mr. Mayfield.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Thank you very much , Mr. Chairman.

I'm interested in the security and I'm going to pursue that again. I have a little scenario here. I would like to create three false identities, and I propose to do that--

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I'm not going to give you any advice on this.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Philip Mayfield: That's okay. I just want to know how you're going to stop me.

I want to go to a graveyard in three different provinces, and I want to pick out somebody who is maybe my age or younger but certainly not over 90. I want to get a birth certificate, and I think I can do that. With that birth certificate I want to get a SIN card, and I suspect I can do that. With those three SIN cards I want to establish three new accounts and pay taxes. I want to distribute all my income over three different accounts, and I really want to fleece the government on this. That's the whole purpose of this.

Now, how are you going to stop me? Can you do that? We have this tombstone data, where in fact agents from other countries have come in and established identities for their own purposes. Do you have the ability to stop people from using what they call “tombstone data” to establish new identities?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Those are interesting hypothetical questions. It's hard to--

Mr. Philip Mayfield: They're not hypothetical, and that's the problem. They're actual instances, cases where this happened.

The Chair: We did ask about that. Can you stop tombstone information from being used to provide a social insurance number? That's a specific question.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I would go on to say that many of the safeguards we've put in place would catch most of that kind of activity. The fact that we've conducted 30,000 investigations over the last four years says that we're catching some at application. It says that we're catching some as fraud--or where fraud is purported to have been committed. It says that since we're catching such behaviour in the system, we're obviously subjecting these things to investigation.

We feel that we've put quite a few safeguards in place, and we'll continue to do more as others are brought to our attention. For everybody who can actually make it through the system, we obviously learn something in that process. We are catching people as they are perpetrating fraud in the system, and we're learning and improving the system as we go.

Can we improve it further than we have done? Yes, we can. That's what the issue here is today, and there is probably some distance we can go in making sure...which is why it is so important that we're aligning all those databases working in vital stats agencies across every jurisdiction.

º (1655)

Mr. Philip Mayfield: It may not be proper for me to say you're wrong, but because I would be dealing with three different groups in establishing each one of those hypothetical identities, I have difficulty accepting that you would be able to stop someone who seriously wanted to do that. You have not convinced me of that because first of all, two steps are totally out of your control.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I can say that we catch many people who are very serious about it.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: I'm glad to hear you say that you do that, but--

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: The other point to remember is that we're always looking for a balance. The vast majority of Canadians and people who are applying for these from outside the country are law abiding. There is always a balance to be struck between what we do to ensure that we maintain the integrity of the number and the integrity of the registry and what we do to allow ease of access to Canadians as well.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: In your statement you mentioned that the remainder of this 5,000 could be explained as being those who are not in the country now for one reason or another. Is that based on anything besides your own hypothesis? Do you have numbers to say that you can base those numbers on something?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: It's based on what we know about migration in and out of the country. It's based on how many people are studying abroad. It's based on the same kind of sampling as to types of use the AG would have done in coming to some of her determinations. We have done the same in our case to ask, does a number seems out of scale according to the size of the Canadian population, the numbers of Canadians who are studying abroad, the numbers of Canadians who may be living abroad, or the numbers of holders of social insurance numbers who may be residing abroad? That's why we can come to the conclusion that the numbers are probably not out of line. Remember, these are people who either don't need to have interaction with our tax system or are not in receipt of any benefits in Canada, things that normally tell us they're out there.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Mayfield.

Mr. Grose, please.

Mr. Ivan Grose: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm going to come at this security thing from a slightly different angle, and I'm going to cite a hypothetical case. Inasmuch as you're not a politician, you can answer with a hypothetical answer.

The question is this. I'm born and I get a birth certificate. My parents get a birth certificate for me, and they also get a social insurance number for me. I grow up, I don't apply for a job, I don't apply for a bank account, and I don't rent an apartment. I live in a cave or maybe beg on the street. In other words, I don't do anything that would require using that social insurance number. Is there any way anyone can get my SIN number with just the birth certificate and the SIN number?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: With the system we've currently put in place, assuming all those things you said, that means you've been an inactive number in our registry for the last five years. I'm assuming you're at least five years old, living in a cave, and so on and so forth. The moment someone tried to use that number, a flag would go up in our system.

Mr. Ivan Grose: Okay, so I renew it every five years.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: You'd have to use it. You wouldn't renew it because it's issued for the entire time you're with us, but if you're inactive--

Mr. Ivan Grose: I was trying to answer Mr. Forseth's question, because I don't think he got an answer. He didn't want to give his SIN number because apparently people in Washington state could get his credit information from Canada, but if he'd never applied for credit, there was no problem.

So the only reason anyone can use your social insurance number or find out anything about you is if you give it to someone. Do you see that? It's not your fault at all, yet the average person blames you for distributing this number all over the place. It's not you who do it, it's the individuals themselves.

I think, in your own interest, it's best to stop talking now.

Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Chairman.

» (1700)

The Chair: Well, thank you, Mr. Grose.

I'm looking at the Auditor General's opening statement at paragraph number 8. She's talking about the inadequate controls over the issuance of social insurance numbers to people who are not Canadians or residents, such as the 900 series. She says the department doesn't ask these applicants to show why they need a social insurance number, even though it is required by regulations.

So why aren't you asking people why they need one?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We are asking.

Go ahead.

Mr. Lu Fernandez: Actually, Mr. Chair, the requirement for proof of identity for people coming into the country--

The Chair: No, it's not proof of identity. It's why they even need one to begin with.

Mr. Lu Fernandez: The proof of identity requirement goes to proof of need, because it's a work authorization provided by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

The Chair: Yes, but I think I picked this up earlier. If I immigrate to Canada with three young children and I apply for the registered education savings plan, how does that happen? I'm not going to send my kid out to work, but he wants the social insurance number.

You're saying that if somebody comes to this country they can only get a social insurance number if they prove they're going to work. If my children want a social insurance number, what happens to them? Can they get it?

Mr. Lu Fernandez: They would have to qualify for a Canada education savings grant. I'm not certain about the particulars of the Canada education savings grant program and who is eligible for that. So I'm not quite sure.

The Chair: Okay. We have the answer over here, I think.

Ms. Therrien.

Ms. Suzanne Therrien (Director, Office of the Auditor General ): Ms. Suzanne Therrien (Director, Office of the Auditor General of Canada))I will try, Mr. Chairman.

When we talk about people who are not Canadian, we have different types of people. First of all, if you're coming to Canada to stay with three children and you have been accepted as a permanent resident, you will receive a regular social insurance number like any Canadian.

Then you have those people who will come to work here as a foreign worker or as a foreign student. Yes, they do need an authorization by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. When we're doing the audit, what we see is that they will produce a work permit from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. Most of them do not have any picture on it. So those people will be granted a 900-series card.

What we've seen on top of that will be your tourists. My neighbour's father is coming from Tunisia to stay with him for six months every year. They might apply because they need to buy a car. We have seen those types of cases as well.

Now, when we were talking about needs, especially when we commented on needs in our chapter, it was especially for those people, to buy a car or something not linked with the immigration document. That was the situation--

The Chair: Let me ask Mr. Fernandez. He's saying it's strictly used to go to work. Now, what's this about needing a social insurance number to buy a car?

Mr. Lu Fernandez: You don't need a social insurance number to buy a car.

Ms. Suzanne Therrien: It was why we criticized the case, the fact that HRDC was not really asking why they needed a number. When they were asking why they needed a number and they got “To buy a car”, they would issue the number.

The Chair: Oh, so they have been issuing cards for those who want to buy a car, not to go to work.

Ms. Suzanne Therrien: That's correct. It's what we've seen in our audits.

The Chair: Okay. That's what they've seen in the audits.

So why are you issuing social insurance numbers to buy cars?

Ms. Flumian, Mr. Fernandez, who's going to answer?

Mr. Lu Fernandez: Perhaps those were some of the observations of the Auditor General's staff. Subsequent to the audit, I can assure you at this point in time that you cannot get a social insurance number when you're coming into the country if you only need it to buy a car.

The Chair: Okay. I presume that's an assurance from this point forward.

Monsieur Gaudet, you have a question.

[Translation]

Mr. Roger Gaudet: I have one brief question, because my thought process is usually logical.

You could give someone a social insurance number at birth and ask the funeral director to report the number upon that person's death. Funeral home directors are well paid; all they would have to do is stick a stamp on a letter and send in the number. You would give someone a number at birth and take it back after his death. The number would be erased. Nothing could be simpler. Why don't you do that?

» (1705)

[English]

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: That's, in part, the system that we're trying to describe here today.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: It would seem the tombstone problem could be solved if death certificates were included in your information as well, would it not?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, as they are now.

As I said earlier, with the Canada Pension Plan, you can file for survivor benefits, and as you go through that process, there is a requirement to file. In most cases, it's done through the offices of the funeral directors. We are notified of that information; it is added to the register, and we keep the information current.

The Chair: I notice in your opening statement, under “Communications” on page 3, last paragraph, you say, “In the interim, we will soon be communicating with key stakeholders about the introduction of the expiry date on the 900-series SIN cards.” That was a recommendation back in 1998 of the public accounts committee. Why did it take so long?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Because we'll be implementing it as of April 1.

The Chair: I know. Why did it take so long?

Was the government not concerned?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, sir. I think everybody was working to make the system as tight as possible. As I said, events in the last year have required us to make it even tighter.

The Chair: Approximately how much has it cost the taxpayer to revamp the system?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: This is something, as I said earlier, that will be tabled in supplementary estimates in about a week's time. That is the time that Parliament will make its determination.

The Chair: What's the number?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I don't think it's appropriate for me to divulge that number.

The Chair: I'm not asking about what's coming up in the estimates, but I hope you've been spending some money in the last five years.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Before we made these improvements, we would have been spending about $16.5 million a year.

The Chair: I was asking about the review, the update, the tightening of the system, redesigning a social insurance card, and entering into these negotiations with the provinces and whatever else you have done. What's that cost?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Those are the additional moneys that will be tabled in the supplementary estimates.

The Chair: Oh, you actually haven't received anything from Parliament so far?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We have managed to make reallocations accordingly and we've gone through all the internal processes. Until that's tabled in the supplementary estimates, the advice I've gotten is that it's not appropriate for me to comment.

The Chair: I'm not asking you to tell us what the number is going to be in the estimates that haven't been tabled yet, but it does seem to me that Parliament was very concerned in 1998 and gave specific instructions to HRDC to get the problem fixed. We did expect that you'd spend some money to fix the problem.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We did. I thought you were asking me about this current fiscal year.

The Chair: No, no.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: In 2001-02 we received an additional $10.2 million. I think that's the total amount over the two-year period...pardon me, I meant 2001-02 and this present time, for the increased public awareness campaign that we talked about; to improve the integrity of the social insurance registry; to increase the number of investigations, because as we've talked about, those have been increased dramatically over the last few years; and to begin negotiations with those vital stats agencies that I also spoke of. So there's been an additional $10.2 million over those two years.

The Chair: Okay. I have a constituent in my riding who came to me after the issue we dealt with in 1998. He says he's involved in--to be generic--the high-tech business, and he had a fool-proof card that he wanted to show HRDC as a way to go to prevent the problems that have been outlined by the Auditor General. You weren't interested in talking to him. Why would that be?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I don't know that we were or weren't, but I'll look into it and get back to you. We're constantly, as I said, looking to make improvements to the system. It is a file identifier.

The Chair: We all know that, yes.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I don't know what this gentleman was proposing, but it may be that it went beyond the scope of being a file identifier. It's the number that's important to us, not the card. That's the predominant issue here.

The Chair: I think it's the use of the number that's important.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, and the integrity that's attached to the use of that number.

But I'll look into your question and provide you with a response.

The Chair: Going back to the Auditor General's audit of 1997, where he pointed out a significant amount of fraud--one person having 72 cards was one item that really sticks out in my mind--what has HRDC, in conjunction with CCRA, done to ensure that these loopholes have been closed? For example, is CCRA checking to see they don't send 72 child tax benefit cheques to the same address?

» (1710)

Mr. Charles Nixon: We review the addresses where social insurance numbers are sent and used so we can verify that the uses to which they're being put are appropriate. That's something we have put in place and is now an ongoing source of verification on our part.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We do those checks on issuing the numbers because in some cases there are valid reasons why you would send many numbers to one address. For example, immigrant aid societies will often act as a post office box for a particular group of people.

In cases where you're trying to enumerate homeless individuals, if they have to be in receipt of benefits and still require social insurance numbers, it may be that agencies are acting on their behalf. So we've had to be very careful over the last year to go over all this.

The Chair: Are you auditing these people?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: That's essentially what we're doing. There are flags now that automatically go up in our systems when there are requests for more than one number to be sent to the same address. We are indeed auditing it.

The Chair: If the CCRA sends a bunch of child tax benefit cheques to the same address, do they let you know about that too?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes. That's another reason for the updating we're going to be doing of the registry with their information as well.

The Chair: Okay. When is this going to take place?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I believe that'll be completed in June.

The Chair: When did you initiate this procedure?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I think you asked me that question earlier and I was going to get back to you with the exact dates of some of these things. But we started this within the last year.

The Chair: So just within the last year you talked to CCRA about this and said it might not be a bad idea?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Not only not a bad idea, but actually initiated the update to make sure that those databases--

The Chair: I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out what you did from 1998 until last year. It seems to me you sat around and didn't do very much, I'm sorry to say.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: We may not have done enough.

The Chair: Obviously you didn't do very much.

It's 5:15, does anybody--

Mr. Philip Mayfield: On that point, Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

A question I discussed before coming to this meeting was why it didn't happen between 1997-98 and the present time. We're speculating that one of the reasons is you may not have had the money to do that. Is that why the recommendations of the previous Auditor General's report were not carried through--lack of money?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: I think the Auditor General has already commented on that and made points that it's important that we secure the funds to proceed to this next level of integrity. In part we did not secure the funds. We secured some funds.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Who was responsible for that shortage of funds? Was the department responsible for not making sure the politicians knew you needed the money, or was that at a time when things were so crunchy that you couldn't get the money you asked for? I'd really like to know why this didn't happen when it was supposed to happen, when we were assured it would happen.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: The only thing I'm aware of is that the funds were not secured and therefore some measures did not proceed. I don't know the reasons why.

In any case, some changes were begun. As I said a few moments ago in answer to the chair, we did secure an additional $10.2 million of additional funds, but that was not sufficient to conclude the job. So we've gone back and secured additional funds and we'll now secure funds for a longer-term business plan that will put this on the kind of footing you're all requesting.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Madame Flumian.

The Chair: In 1998, I criticized HRDC for having absolutely no reference in their performance reports to the fact that social insurance numbers were even under your responsibility. It has now expanded to two paragraphs, and it looks like you're just starting to initiate improvements and changes.

Can I get a commitment from you, Ms. Flumian, that HRDC will ensure that they report in the performance reports every year the progress that is being made to ensure that the social insurance numbers are adequately supervised and managed on behalf of Canadians?

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes, sir, you can.

The Chair: Okay. Since I understand you're no longer in the job as associate deputy minister, will you pass that on to your successor?

» (1715)

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: No, I am in the job. Do you know something I don't?

The Chair: Sorry. I thought you had moved to another job.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: No, sir.

The Chair: My apologies there.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: If you know something I don't, I'd be happy if you'd share it with me after the session.

The Chair: I don't know very much. But the point I'm trying to make is if you take that responsibility, I want to see that it is--

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: You'll see it reported in greater detail in the upcoming report.

The Chair: I want to see accomplishments as well as things you have initiated.

Ms. Maryantonett Flumian: Yes. We will make very clear what is in the process of being concluded or that we expect dependencies on other parties.

The Chair: I'm disappointed that nothing seems to be done until you really shake the tree very hard, and 9/11 seems to have shaken the tree very hard and then you suddenly took it seriously. You didn't take the public accounts committee's report in 1998 very seriously, unfortunately.

We are glad that the Auditor General went back and wrote another rather savage report, and I hope you take it seriously.

If there are no more questions, we'll have closing comments by the assistant auditor general. Mr. Mayfield, I understand, has a notice of motion he wants to introduce to us.

Ms. Barrados.

Ms. Maria Barrados: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You are correct that we were disappointed, when we carried out this audit, at the slow progress that had been made by HRDC. However, we are confident they are now taking us seriously and are seriously working on our recommendations.

We are pleased to see the action plan. As I said earlier, it's a plan that still needs some fleshing out. It needs to have the cost figures put into it once the department gets them through the estimates process.

There are a number of preliminary activities such as the study with Statistics Canada. It is a good initiative, but you need to see what comes out of that and what will be done. So it needs some further specificity and timelines. It needs to incorporate what other departments and agencies are expected to do, because it's not only HRDC in this; there are others involved in moving this agenda forward.

So I suggest this is something your committee may want to follow up on. It has been our experience that when Parliament keeps a watch on things, the departments try to respond.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Barrados. We'll consider that part of the agenda closed.

Mr. Mayfield, you have a motion you want to introduce.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: Briefly, Mr. Chairman, by way of background, I received a letter from the Assembly of First Nations, signed by Vice-Chief Charles Fox. I'm sure other members of the committee have received it as well.

In this letter Mr. Fox is concerned that the Assembly of First Nations did not receive an invitation to attend our committee meeting on February 5 to discuss the issue of consent forms. He would like to have an opportunity to meet with the committee. Therefore:

I, Philip Mayfield, MP, Cariboo--Chilcotin, move that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts should as soon as can be arranged call Vice-Chief Charles Fox and other officials of the Assembly of First Nations to make a presentation about matters directly related to First Nations and the Inuit Health Branch of Health Canada consent forum and the October 2000 report of the Auditor General of Canada.

That is my notice of motion. I have it translated here as well.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Mayfield. Are you putting urgency on that? Do you want it to go to the steering committee before I bring it back to the full committee, or do you want it to be debated in full committee?

Mr. Philip Mayfield: I'll leave that in your hands, Mr. Chairman. I would like the committee, by way of my motion, to approve their coming. You can schedule it as you choose, through the steering committee or however you choose to do that.

The Chair: I'll see what I can do, Mr. Mayfield.

Thank you very much. Is there any further business coming before the meeting?

There being none, the meeting is adjourned.