AANR Committee Meeting

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Meeting No. 70

Wednesday, May 7, 2003

The Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources met in a televised session at 3:25 p.m. this day, in Room 237-C, Centre Block, the Chair, Raymond Bonin, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Gérard Binet, Raymond Bonin, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré, Maurice Vellacott.

Acting Members present: David Price for John Godfrey, Claude Duplain for Benoît Serré, Beth Phinney for John Godfrey, John Bryden for Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Jocelyne Girard-Bujold for Serge Cardin, Karen Redman for Julian Reed, Judy Sgro for Stan Dromisky, Brent St-Denis for John Godfrey, Michel Guimond for Yvan Loubier, Libby Davies for Pat Martin, Svend Robinson for Pat Martin, Réal Ménard for Yvan Loubier, Paul Szabo for Anita Neville, Judy Wasylycia-Leis for Pat Martin.

In attendance: From the Committees Branch: Jeffrey LeBlanc and Susan Baldwin, Legislative Clerks; Bill Farrell, Committee Clerk.

In attendance: From the Library of Parliament: Mary Hurley and Carol Hilling, Analysts.

Witnesses: From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: Warren Johnson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Trust Services; Paul Salembier, Senior Counsel; Lucie Angers, Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice.

Pursuant to its Order of Reference of Monday, October 7, 2002, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-7, An Act respecting leadership selection, administration and accountability of Indian bands, and to make related amendments to other Acts (See Minutes of Proceedings, Monday, January 27, 2003, Meeting No. 14).

The Committee resumed Clause-by-Clause consideration of the Bill.

On Clause 24,

Debate resumed on the sub-amendment of Yvan Loubier, – That the amendment be further amended by inserting, after the word “inspection”, the following:

“Exclusive of living quarters”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, David Price, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment of Maurice Vellacott, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 24, be amended by replacing lines 39 to 45 on page 15 and lines 1 to 4 on page 16 with the following:

“24. (1) A band enforcement officer to whom a warrant has been issued under subsection 26(3) may, at any reasonable time, carry out an inspection if the officer believes on reasonable grounds that there is non-compliance with a band law.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, David Price, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré (8)

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 24, be amended by replacing lines 39 to 45 on page 15 and lines 1 to 19 on page 16 with the following:

Dismissal of band enforcement officers.

24. A band enforcement officer may be dismissed only with the concurrence of the impartial person or body authorized by the band for the purposes of section 11.

Pat Martin moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding the following:

“and the band officer shall have access to legal counsel, advice, and representation of his choice and the cost of said legal counsel shall be borne by the Band Council.”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, David Price, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, David Price, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré, Maurice Vellacott (9)

NAYS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

Clause 24, as amended, carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, David Price, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré (8)

NAYS : Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

On Clause 25,

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 25, be amended by replacing lines 20 to 30 on page 16 with the following:

Inspections by band enforcement officers

25. Where a band law for the regulation of an activity provides for the inspection of a place on reserve lands, a band enforcement officer may conduct an inspection of the place in accordance with the band law after advising the person appearing to be in charge of the place of the purpose of the inspection.

Yvan Loubier moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding after “of the place” the following:

“, other than a dwelling-place,”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, David Price, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Claude Duplain (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, David Price, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Claude Duplain, Maurice Vellacott (8)

NAYS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

Clause 25, as amended, carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, David Price, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Claude Duplain (7)

NAYS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

On Clause 26,

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 26, be amended by replacing lines 31 to 41 on page 16 and lines 1 to 17 on page 17 with the following:

Search conducted with warrant

26. (1) Subject to section 27, a search for the purpose of enforcing a band law may be conducted only in accordance with a warrant issued under subsection (2).

Issuance of warrant on application

(2) A justice of the peace may issue a warrant authorizing a band enforcement officer or peace officer to conduct a search of a place on reserve lands, subject to any conditions that may be specified in the warrant, where on ex parte application the justice is satisfied by information on oath that there are reasonable grounds to believe that there is in the place

(a) any thing on or in respect of which an offence under a band law is being or has been committed; or

(b) any thing that will afford evidence with respect to the commission of an offence under a band law.

Debate arose thereon.

Pat Martin moved – That the amendment be amended by adding after “(2) A justice of the peace” the following:

“or an elder’s council”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Beth Phinney, Charles Hubbard, John Bryden, Anita Neville, Claude Duplain (6)

On motion of Yvan Loubier, it was negatived – That the Committee suspend for ten minutes.

Debate resumed on the amendment.

Debate arose thereon.

Yvan Loubier moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding, in paragraph (2), after the words “on reserve lands”, the following:

“other than a dwelling place”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Jocelyn Girard-Bujold, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Beth Phinney, Charles Hubbard, John Bryden, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Claude Duplain, Maurice Vellacott (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Beth Phinney, Charles Hubbard, John Bryden, Anita Neville, Karen Redman, Claude Duplain, Maurice Vellacott (8)

NAYS: Jocelyn Girard-Bujold, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

Clause 26, as amended, carried on division.

On Clause 27,

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 27, be amended by replacing lines 18 to 27 on page 17 with the following:

Search without warrant

27. (1) Subject to subsection (2), a band enforcement officer or peace officer may conduct a search without a warrant for the purpose of enforcing a band law made under paragraph 16(1)(a), (l) or (n) or 17(1)(a) or (b) if the conditions for obtaining a warrant exist but the delay necessary to obtain a warrant would likely

(a) entail a risk of imminent bodily harm or death to any person; or

(b) cause the imminent loss or destruction of evidence relating to an offence under a band law.

Dwelling

(2) No search of a dwelling may be conducted without a warrant.

Debate arose thereon.

Pat Martin moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding after the word “dwelling” the words “or any place during traditional ceremonies” and removing the words “without a warrant.”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Jocelyn Girard-Bujold, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Judy Sgro, Beth Phinney, Charles Hubbard, John Bryden, Anita Neville, Karen Redman, Claude Duplain (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

Debate arose thereon.

Jocelyn Girard-Bujold moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding after “dwelling” the following:

“or a sacred site of the first nation”

At 8:52 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 9:14 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the sub-amendment.

At 9:15 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 9:22 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the sub-amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Jocelyn Girard-Bujold, Michel Guimond, Libby Davies (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Brent St-Denis, Charles Hubbard, John Bryden, Anita Neville, Karen Redman, Claude Duplain, Maurice Vellacott (9)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Brent St-Denis, Charles Hubbard, John Bryden, Anita Neville, Karen Redman, Claude Duplain (8)

NAYS: Maurice Vellacott, Jocelyn Girard-Bujold, Michel Guimond, Libby Davies (4)

Clause 27, as amended, carried on division.

On Clause 28,

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 28, be amended by replacing lines 28 to 31 on page 17 with the following:

Use of force

28. (1) A band enforcement officer shall not use force in conducting an inspection or search.

Warrant authorizing force

(2) A peace officer may use force in conducting a search under a warrant if the use of force is specifically authorized in the warrant.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Brent St-Denis, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Karen Redman, Claude Duplain, Maurice Vellacott (8)

NAYS: Jocelyn Girard-Bujold, Michel Guimond, Libby Davies (3)

Clause 28, as amended, carried on division.

On Clause 29,

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 29, be amended by replacing lines 32 to 36 on page 17 with the following:

Operation of office equipment

29. A band enforcement officer may, where authorized by a band law providing for inspections or by a warrant issued for a search,

(a) use any computer system at that place; and

(b) use any copying or printing equipment at that place to copy or print any electronic data, books, records or other documents, and remove the copy or printout for examination.

Debate arose thereon.

Svend Robinson moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding after the word “may” the following:

“only when authorized by the owner or owners and”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Réal Ménard, Svend Robinson (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Brent St-Denis, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Paul Szabo, Karen Redman, Claude Duplain, Maurice Vellacott (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

Debate arose thereon.

Réal Ménard moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding after the word “may” they following:

“without violating any rights or customs of the aboriginal nations”

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Réal Ménard, Judy Wasylycia-Leis (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Brent St-Denis, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Paul Szabo, Karen Redman, Claude Duplain (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment. 

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Brent St-Denis, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Paul Szabo, Karen Redman, Claude Duplain (8)

NAYS: Maurice Vellacott, Réal Ménard, Judy Wasylycia-Leis (3)

The question “Shall Clause 29, as amended, carry?” was put.

Debate arose thereon.

At 12:04 a.m., on motion of Maurice Vellacott, it was agreed – That the Committee adjourn until 9:00 a.m., Thursday, May 8, 2003.

At 12:04 a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Elizabeth B. Kingston

Clerk of the Committee