AANR Committee Meeting

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Meeting No. 65

Tuesday, April 29, 2003

The Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources met at 11:05 a.m. this day, in Room 237-C, Centre Block, the Chair, Raymond Bonin, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Gérard Binet, Raymond Bonin, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré, Maurice Vellacott.

Acting Members present: Derek Lee for Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Stan Keyes for Benoît Serré, Joe McGuire for Julian Reed, Serge Marcil for Julian Reed, Alan Tonks for Benoît Serré, John Finlay for Julian Reed, John Finlay for John Godfrey, Paul Crête for Yvan Loubier, Geoff Regan for Benoît Serré, Derek Lee for Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Mark Eyking for John Godfrey, John Finlay for Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Larry Spencer for Dave Chatters, Reg Alcock for Benoît Serré, Claude Duplain for Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Beth Phinney for Benoît Serré, Ken Epp for Brian Pallister, Dominic LeBlanc for Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Derek Lee for Benoît Serré, Murray Calder for Julian Reed, Mac Harb for Julian Reed, Alan Tonks for John Godfrey, Jacques Saada for Stan Dromisky, Marlene Catterall for Julian Reed.

Other Member present: Peter Stoffer.

In attendance: From the Committees Branch: Jeffrey LeBlanc, Joann Garbig, Legislative Clerks; Jeremy LeBlanc, Georges Etoka, Committee Clerks.

In attendance: From the Library of Parliament: Mary Hurley, Tonina Simeone, Analysts.

Witnesses: From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: Warren Johnson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Trust Services; Andrew Beynon, General Counsel; Paul Salembier, Senior Counsel; Sylvie George, Manager, Transfer Payment Directorate, Finance Branch; Natalie Nepton, Acting Director, Band Governance and Estates, Lands and Trust Services.

Pursuant to its Order of Reference of Monday, October 7, 2002, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-7, An Act respecting leadership selection, administration and accountability of Indian bands, and to make related amendments to other Acts (See Minutes of Proceedings, Monday, January 27, 2003, Meeting No. 14).

The Committee resumed Clause-by-Clause consideration of the Bill.

On Clause 6,

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing lines 16 to 27 on page 6 with the following:

“(3) An administration of government code must

(a) provide for reasonable notice to band members of a proposed band law and permit affected persons to comment on it before it is made;

(b) prescribe the procedures for the making of band laws by the council; and

(c) provide for the maintenance of a band registry of codes and laws.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Derek Lee, Anita Neville (6)

At 11:52 a.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 12:04 p.m., the sitting resumed.

 Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing line 19 on page 6 with the following:

made under this Act and the delegation by the council o its law-making powers and, in particular, rules

At 12:06 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 12:10 p.m., the sitting resumed.

The Committee resumed consideration on the motion of Charles Hubbard.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Derek Lee, Benoît Serré, Maurice Vellacott (7)

NAYS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing line 25 on page 6 with the following:

“ing of band laws by the council, including a requirement that a quorum of the members of council must be present at a meeting of the council in order for the council to make a band law; and”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Benoît Serré, Maurice Vellacott (6)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 6, be amended by replacing lines 28 to 42 on page 6 with the following:

“(4) An administration of government code must

(a) set out the roles and authorities of the band administration and its relationship to the council;

(b) provide for conflicts of interest of members of the council and employees of the band;

(c) provide for access to information that is under the control of the band, the protection of personal information under its control and access by individuals to information about themselves; and

(d) establish a procedure for amending the code.”

At 1:10 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 1:23 p.m., the sitting resumed.

By unanimous consent, it was agreed – That the amendment be further amended by adding after the word “provide” in section (b) the following: “remedy”.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment as amended, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS : Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Derek Lee, Anita Neville, Benoît Serré (7)

Maurice Vellacott moved – That the sitting be suspended until 3:15 p.m. this day.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 3

NAYS: 7

At 1:57 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 2:10 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 6, be amended by adding after line 42 on page 6 the following:

“(5) The code referred to in subsection (4) shall specify that members of the council and employees of the band

(a) are required to carry out their duties in an impartial manner; and

(b) will be considered to be in conflict of interest and in violation of the code if they

(i) take part in a decision in the course of carrying out their duties, or use their position to influence or seek to influence such a decision, knowing that the decision might further a private interest of the member or of the employee, or of their spouse or minor child, or

(ii) use or communicate information not available to the general public that was obtained by the member or employee in the course of carrying out their duties under a financial management or accountability code with a view to furthering or seeking to further a private interest of the member or of the employee, or of their spouse or minor child.

(6) A member or employee who exercises supervisory or inspection functions or other discretionary authority in relation to other persons shall disqualify themselves from acting in that capacity in relation to any person with whom the member or employee has a personal or familial relationship of such a nature that it could reasonably be perceived as bringing the impartiality of the member or employee into question in respect of the exercise of those functions.

(7) No member or employee shall accept, from any individual, organization or corporation, a fee, gift or other benefit that is directly or indirectly related to the performance of their duties. This does not include

(a) the customary exchange of gifts between friends;

(b) the customary exchange of hospitality between persons doing business together;

(c) token gifts exchanged in accordance with protocol; or

(d) the customary presentation of gifts to persons participating in public functions.

(8) Where the council of a band makes an allegation of conflict of interest against an employee of the band, the employee may request the intervention of the Ombudsman appointed under section 11.

(9) The code shall specify the penalties for failure to comply with the code. In the case of employees, the code shall specify what disciplinary measures may be imposed by council, including dismissal, and the circumstances when those penalties are applicable. In the case of members, the code shall specify what disciplinary measures may be imposed by a quorum of the council, including removal from council, and the circumstances when those penalties are applicable.”

At 2:12 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 2:22 p.m., the sitting resumed.

On a point of order, Maurice Vellacott stated that those members counted in quorum need to be sitting at the Committee table.

The Chairman ruled that those members in the Committee room may be counted in quorum.

The question having been put: “Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?” it was agreed to by a show of hands.

YEAS: 7

NAYS: 2

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott (1)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré, Pat Martin (7)

Clause 6, as amended, carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré (6)

NAYS: Maurice Vellacott, Pat Martin (2)

On Clause 7,

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 7, be amended by replacing line 5 on page 7 with the following:

“council and presentation, together with a current balance sheet, to members of the”

At 3:10 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 3:23 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Paul Crête (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Finlay, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Benoît Serré, Pat Martin (8)

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 7, be amended by replacing line 6 on page 7 with the following:

“band and residents of the reserve during the last quarter of the preceding”

At 3:58 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 4:10 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 3

NAYS: 7

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 7, be amended by adding after line 27 on page 7 the following:

“(2) The budget and balance sheet referred to in paragraph (1)(a) shall express the financial position of the band in as clear and accurate manner as possible.”

By unanimous consent, it was agreed that the amendment be further amended by deleting the words “and balance sheet referred to in paragraph (1) (a)”.

Paul Crête moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding the following: “à partir des états financiers prévus à l’article 8 et 9 (1)”.

At 5:04 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 5:22 p.m., the sitting resumed.

At 5:36 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 6:31 p.m., the sitting resumed.

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Paul Crête, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS : Benoît Serré, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville (5)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

At 6:39 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 6:40 p.m., the sitting resumed.

At 6:42 p.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 6:44 p.m., the sitting resumed.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 3

NAYS: 8

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 7, be amended by adding after line 27 on page 7 the following:

“(2) The council of each band shall conduct an annual meeting, which shall be attended by the auditor, during which the council shall

(a) present the budget and balance sheet to all members of the band and residents of the reserve in accordance with the financial management and accountability code;

(b) allow sufficient time, after the presentation, for members of the band and residents of the reserve to submit to the council and to the auditor questions and comments relating to the budget and balance sheet; and

(c) make every effort, with the auditor, to give a thorough answer to all questions put to them.”

And debate arose thereon.

After debate, Larry Spencer moved – That the amendment be amended by adding, before the first occurrence of the words “balance sheet”, the word “a” and by adding, after the word “code”, the words “or regulations”.

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Larry Spencer, Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Pat Martin (4)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Beth Phinney (7)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Larry Spencer, Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Claude Duplain, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Pat Martin (7)

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 7, be amended by adding after line 27 on page 7 the following:

“(2) The council of the band shall make available to the members of the band and the residents of the reserve a copy of the budget and balance sheet at least 14 days before the budget and balance sheet are presented in accordance with the financial management and accountability code.”

Whereupon a point of order was raised as to the admissibility of the amendment.

The Chairman ruled the amendment inadmissible since it was different from the one which the Member had previously given notice of in accordance with the motion adopted on Wednesday, April 2, 2003 (meeting no. 59)

Clause 7 carried.

Clause 8 carried on division.

On Clause 9,

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 9, be amended by replacing line 39 on page 7 with the following:

“rated under the laws of a province and who has no apparent or actual interest in the finances of the band.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Dominic LeBlanc, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Beth Phinney (8)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 9, be amended by deleting lines 5 to 9 on page 8.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Derek Lee (7)

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 9, be amended by replacing line 5 on page 8 with the following:

“(3) A band's audited financial statements with supporting schedules shall be”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Derek Lee, Pat Martin (8)

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 9, be amended by replacing line 9 on page 8 with the following:

“payment of a nominal fee that does not exceed the cost of printing.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Pat Martin (7)

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 9, be amended by adding after line 9 on page 8 the following:

“(4) Within 60 days after a band’s financial statements have been made publicly available in accordance with subsection (3), the council shall conduct a meeting open to all members of the band and residents of the reserve. The auditor shall attend at the meeting to respond to any question or comments from members and residents in respect of the financial statements.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Derek Lee, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (8)

Clause 9 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, John Godfrey, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Derek Lee (6)

NAYS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

Ken Epp moved – That the Committee do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 4

NAYS: 6

On Clause 10,

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing line 10 on page 8 with the following:

“10. (1) In the event of a breach”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Dominic LeBlanc, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Derek Lee (7)

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing line 11 on page 8 with the following:

“of any rule respecting the deficit, debt or accounting practices of a”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Dominic LeBlanc, Anita Neville, Murray Calder (6)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing lines 13 to 20 on page 8 with the following:

“presented to the members of the band at a date as early as the council establishes
feasible.”

And debate arose thereon.

After debate, Maurice Vellacott moved – That the amendment be further amended by adding the following: “as long as it is within six months”.

After debate, Ken Epp moved – That the Committee do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 3

NAYS: 8

After debate, the question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier (3)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Mac Harb, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Alan Tonks, Derek Lee, Pat Martin (8)

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 3

NAYS: 8

Yvan Loubier moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing line 19 on page 8 with the following:

“than 60 days after the time the breach became”

By unanimous consent, it was agreed – That the amendment be amended by inserting after the word “that” the number “1” (to read 160 instead of 60).

Ken Epp moved – That the Committee do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 4

NAYS: 7

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Mac Harb, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Alan Tonks, Derek Lee (7)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 10, be amended by deleting lines 25 to 39 on page 8.

Ken Epp moved – That the Committee do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 2

NAYS: 9

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Jacques Saada, Charles Hubbard, Anita Neville, Marlene Catterall, Benoît Serré, Derek Lee, Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott (9)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing lines 25 to 30 on page 8 with the following:

“(3) A Council may carry out an assessment of a band’s financial position and, if the Council considers necessary, require that remedial measures be taken when any of the following circumstances becomes known:”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 2

NAYS: 9

Charles Hubbard moved, -- That Bill C-7, in Clause 10, be amended by replacing lines 25 to 27 on page 8 with the following:

Ministerial assessment

(3) The Minister, or a person or body designated by the Minister, may at any time carry out an assessment of a band's financial position and, if the Minister considers it necessary, the Minister may require that

At 2:51 a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 2:57 a.m., the sitting resumed.

Ken Epp moved – That the Committee do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 3

NAYS: 8

Debate resumed on the amendment.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on the following division.

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Jacques Saada, Charles Hubbard, Alan Tonks, Anita Neville, Marlene Catterall, Derek Lee (7)

NAYS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

Clause 10, as amended, carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Jacques Saada, Charles Hubbard, Alan Tonks, Anita Neville, Marlene Catterall, Derek Lee (7)

NAYS: Ken Epp, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 11, be amended by replacing lines 40 to 42 on page 8 with the following:

“11. (1) The council of a band may authorize an impartial person or body”

At 3:31 a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 3:35 a.m., the sitting resumed.

At 3:43 a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 3:48 a.m., the sitting resumed.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Jacques Saada, Charles Hubbard, Alan Tonks, Anita Neville, Marlene Catterall, Derek Lee (7)

Charles Hubbard moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 11, be amended by replacing lines 41 and 42 on page 8 with the following:

   “law, authorize an impartial person or body”

At 4:01 a.m., the sitting was suspended for lack of quorum.

At 4:20 a.m., on Wednesday, April 30, 2003, the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Elizabeth B. Kingston

Clerk of the Committee