NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, December 9, 1997

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[Translation]

The Chairman (Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.)): Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to this sitting of the Standing Committee on National Defence. We are very honoured this afternoon to have Major General S.T. MacDonald, Chief of Reserves and Cadets.

General MacDonald, we usually ask witnesses to make a presentation of 10 to 20 minutes and we then have a question period which lasts 10 minutes or so for each group of members.

So, without further ado, perhaps you would like to begin by introducing the person who is here with you and make your presentation.

Major General S.T. MacDonald (Chief, Reserves and Cadets, Department of National Defence): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

Let me start by introducing Chief Warrant Officer Rob Duncan, who is the brigade sergeant-major of a reserve brigade here in Ontario, 33 Brigade, based in Ottawa. He provides my office and my staff with advice on a number of reserve issues, particularly with respect to the army.

Mr. Chairman and members of the standing committee, I'd like to begin by thanking each of you for your obvious interest in the continued effectiveness and the well-being of Canada's armed forces. You are undertaking a review that will be of critical importance in the evolution of one of Canada's most important institutions, but it's an institution that is not generally well understood by the Canadian public.

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I thank you also for affording me this opportunity to appear before you today as the senior serving reservist in the Canadian Forces. My own role within National Defence headquarters is to provide advice and counsel on the most effective use of reservists and reserve resources. Today I will briefly describe and discuss the activities and challenges that are part of the daily experience of thousands of those reservists.

[Translation]

To the 30,000 men and women of the Primary Reserve this Committee provides an important forum; an opportunity to engage in discussion and analysis that will lead to positive change within the Reserve in particular, and the Canadian Forces in general. I will not be the only reservist that you meet during your deliberations, and I am confident that you will continue to seek out further information and clarification from many more of our reserve sailors, soldiers, airmen and communicators during the months to come.

The Minister of National Defence, the Chief of the Defence Staff, and several General Officers have already provided your Committee with an initial and comprehensive overview of the major social and economic challenges that face members of the Canadian Forces; both Regular and Reserve. I share their concerns, especially with respect to the support and care of our most important resource; our uniformed members.

[English]

In the short time available, I'd like to discuss four areas from a reserve perspective. The first is visibility of the reserves in our communities. The second is reserves within the total force context. The third is the need for a social contract between the government and all members of the Canadian Forces. Last is the impact of quality of life issues on reserve operational effectiveness and on reserve availability.

The Canadian Forces, as we're all aware, have received considerable criticism over the past few years, but I believe the degree of criticism is waning and will continue to do so in the light of Canadian Forces activities in Manitoba during the recent flood and in response to our continued successes in Bosnia and Haiti as well as in dozens of other countries where our members serve and have served with distinction. At the same time, though, it is equally important that our parliamentarians continue to recognize and commend the service of our men and women both in Canada and abroad.

Concurrent with the continued and continuous overseas deployment of thousands of our service personnel, the Canadian Forces have undergone significant reductions in both manpower and infrastructure over the past few years. This has been the result of major changes in the global balance of military power and as well in response to the fiscal realities that face all Canadians.

Base closures and the reduction of our regular force to 60,000 have had the effect of minimizing the visibility of the Canadian Forces in the eye of the Canadian public, as well as having an immediate impact on the morale of both the uniformed and the civilian members of the defence team.

Many of the bases that remain are distant from major urban centres, and as a result, members in uniform are not prevalent on the streets of our towns and cities. The axiom “Out of sight, out of mind” could be applied to this situation were it not for the Canadian Forces representation that we do enjoy in hundreds of communities and in every region of Canada through the continued presence of our reserve forces and units. Prominent community leaders remain involved with their local reserve unit, and the presence of armouries, military equipment, and reservists in uniform keep the military in the public eye in those communities.

Reservists have thus become the de facto ambassadors of the Canadian Forces in most of our communities. They provide the largest link with the public, and because of their dispersed locations, provide us with an opportunity for the participation and support of their communities.

For many of these Canadians, the equipment and resources provided to our reservists and to those reserve units are an obvious measure of the government's concern for and commitment to the Canadian Forces and to its valued personnel.

The Canadian Forces of today are based on a total force structure that was recognized initially in the 1987 defence white paper. This structure has confirmed the need for a regular and reserve partnership designed to adequately address Canada's principal defence requirements. Currently this partnership is comprised of 60,000 uniformed regular force members and 30,000 uniformed members of the primary reserve.

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A 1994 defence white paper defined the reserve role as the augmentation and sustainment of deployed operations and the provision of a base for mobilization. In addition to these, some specific roles and tasks have now been assigned to reserve elements. A prime example of this is the manning of our new maritime coastal defence vessels by the naval reserve.

The two components of the CF, regular and reserve, are therefore mutually supporting and are capable of forming a single team in response to a full range of contingencies.

Canada's operational commitments since 1991 have enjoyed a very positive response from reservists. The target for reserve participation in overseas commitments has been set at 20% in any given operation, although this has at times been exceeded. Reservists comprised over 40% of the battalion strength in our early deployments to the former Yugoslavia. By all accounts, they performed admirably.

You might be surprised to learn that one of every six of the land force personnel who have been deployed overseas since 1991 have been reservists.

But our reserve contribution has not been restricted only to the land force. Reserve sailors, aviators, and communicators have also served alongside their regular counterparts throughout the world and have participated in almost every international deployment since 1991.

Closer to home, a total of 860 reservists were employed as part of the disaster assistance provided by the Canadian Forces to battle the flood waters of the Red River in Manitoba this past spring. These reserve members came from all parts of the country and represented some 10% of the total military personnel deployed.

In your deliberations concerning the future support requirements for the Canadian Forces, it is essential to recognize the total force posture of the CF. Therefore, any recommendations of this committee will impact on both regular and reserve members and their units. There are, of course, some issues that may be specific to either the regular force or the reserve force. I'll mention some of these later in my submission.

The overseas deployment of 42,000 Canadian military members since 1991 serves to once again remind us that Canada has a strongly developed tradition of volunteer service, a tradition that is fundamental to the military ethos of both the regular and the reserve members.

In addition, the men and women of our reserve units volunteer to undertake this service during evenings and weekends and during periods of vacation time. All of these are times that others would recognize as leisure or family time. However, their service is not simply restricted to those occasions when they're in uniform. It carries over into their normal weekly routine and their activities.

Military service by reservists is not simply defined as the number of days' pay received in a month. It also becomes a way of life that requires both personal and family dedication and understanding. This reserve commitment to service, loyalty and self-discipline have, by the way, attracted the interest and support of hundreds of Canadian businesses, stimulated by the Canadian Forces Liaison Council. As a result, we continue to be encouraged by the increasing breadth and depth of support provided to reservists by their civilian employers.

Professionalism and dedication to duty have been clearly demonstrated in the quantity and the quality of reserve participation in virtually every domestic and international operation involving the CF since the introduction of our total force partnership. Volunteerism and dedication to service will continue to be a critical component of the social contract between the reservist and the Government of Canada: a contract that describes a commitment to serve in peacetime, a willingness to serve on peacekeeping and on peacekeeping operations, and a legal liability to serve in wartime.

As you know, reservists have ably demonstrated their willingness and their ability to serve on operations, and in very significant numbers, during the past six years. Such service, though, comes with a personal liability faced by all of our servicemen and servicewomen—the threat of injury, and concern for the well-being of their families at home in Canada.

Added to these concerns for many reservists are the additional concerns of disruption to civilian careers and an unavoidable impact on their families. These families, by the way, do not always live in close proximity to the services and support provided by the military community on a distant, supporting base. The circumstances already described—the impact of quality of life issues on the morale of our reservists, and therefore their willingness to serve on operations—comes to the fore. The direct link between morale and operational effectiveness becomes very apparent.

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It has been said that in a volunteer organization the members vote with their feet, as you have heard from the assistant deputy minister personnel, and this can be costly to the Canadian Forces. Quality of life issues and morale will continue to play a major part in reducing attrition and in increasing the availability rates, especially in the reserve. Nor can we ignore the cost savings that we all derive from retaining our trained and motivated reservists. Poor retention has the obvious and recurring cost of continually training new personnel to replace those who have moved on.

Unique to the reserve is the value-added element in employing trained reservists on operations at the moment when they're needed and for the period of time they're needed while having the advantage of moving them off the full-time payroll and back to their civilian employers and to part-time reserve service when that operational requirement has diminished.

In order to further improve the capability of the Canadian Forces a process of reserve restructure was initiated in 1996 following the report by the special commission on the restructuring of the reserve. This process is aimed at continuing to improve the operational effectiveness and the efficiency of our reserve. The commission recommended improvements to the level of compensation and benefits provided to reservists, and the very recent approval of the reserve get-well package is heartening to every reservist.

Some other initiatives are under way, but there remain two specific questions I would like to draw to your attention as priority items. The assistant deputy minister personnel in his presentation to your committee highlighted the need to examine a future social contract between members of the CF and the Government of Canada. Quite naturally, such a contract includes compensation as one of the vital issues. Pay is the most immediate and visible of all forms of compensation, and all members of the Canadian Forces, regular and reserve, continue to await the outcome of all the initiatives that would more adequately recognize the nature of their service.

Equally important, if not more so, considering the uncertainties of the future, is the value of recognition of service through an appropriate pension plan, which is addressing long-term quality-of-life issues. This is one issue that still separates our regular and our reserve components. The Canadian Forces Superannuation Act was specifically designed to recognize long service in the regular force. In contrast, though, our reserve members, particularly those who serve for months or years on a full-time service, have not been provided with access to a pension plan as directed by the federal Pension Benefits Standards Act. I would ask this committee to consider this issue during your deliberations.

[Translation]

I should point out at this juncture that the recently announced Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity (RFRG), while not a pension plan, does go a long way toward recognizing the significant contribution made by long service members of the Primary Reserve. It is an excellent example of the type of benefit that will result in an improved, more experienced and available Primary Reserve.

However, I would be remiss if I failed to mention that it does not apply to the 5,000 officers of the Cadet Instructor Cadre. They do not have the same role as the Primary Reserve but their contribution to Canada's most successful youth program deserves similar support. A modified RFRG would clearly signal Parliament's recognition of their dedication and commitment to youth.

[English]

As a final point, I would also like to focus your concerns on the need to improve the service level and access to both long-term and partial disability insurance for those reservists who may be injured or wounded while performing their military duties. This topic has been raised in previous presentations. It is true that reservists have been among those injured or wounded in operations. The special circumstances that confront reservists when returning from a period of operational military duty back to their civilian lives, to their families and their careers, must be fully considered. Recognition of this service is paramount when considering issues of follow-on medical treatment and forms of compensation for the impediments caused by severe injury. It's also essential that the responsibilities of all government departments associated with the care of injured personnel are clearly enunciated.

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In the time available I have attempted to describe the nature of reserve volunteer service, the contributions that have been made and will continue to be made by Canada's reservists, and the importance of quality of life issues in their impact on both operational availability and on readiness.

Your deliberations and recommendations in the months to come will help to ensure that the Canadian Forces, both regular and reserve, will enter the next millenium with the full support of the citizens and government of Canada. Your study sends a clear message to the members of the Canadian Forces that Parliament is prepared to listen to the concerns of our personnel and their families. This support is fundamental to our ability to attract, train, and most importantly, retain the best that Canada has to offer in the service of their country.

Again, I thank you for this opportunity. I look forward to your questions, and I await your recommendations with anticipation. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

We now go to questions.

[Translation]

Ms. Venne.

Ms. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Good afternoon, sirs. First of all, I would like to ask you, since we're not reinventing the wheel, what is going on in other countries where there are reservists. What is the percentage of reservists relative to regular personnel? Is there the same difference that there appears to be here? That's mainly what I would like to know, if, of course, you have that information.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Thank you. I prefer to answer in English.

Ms. Pierrette Venne: Yes.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: It's easier for me.

[English]

It is a very good question, and one that is asked by all reservists regularly. It's a difficult question to answer, because as you may appreciate, the spectrum of ways in which reservists are treated throughout even our NATO allies varies as much as perhaps the way parliaments operate throughout those countries as well. There is a tremendous range, all in search of the same aim—that is, a more effective and capable reserve—but achieving it throughout a variety of different processes.

The staff at NDHQ could certainly provide you with some detailed information. Perhaps suffice it to say that in terms of compensation, it varies, being extremely modest in those countries where national service or conscription for the draft exists. There, soldiers are trained at the beginning of their initial period of service for a year or so and then placed on a reserve list that is not exercised or utilized very much at all. There is minimal cost involved in doing that.

On the other extreme are the Australians, for example. Reserve pay in Australia is tax-free. Income tax is not paid on reserve pay, and the rates of pay in Australia are approximate to Canada's. I should add that there's a cap on reserve Australian pay of 100 days at tax-free rates, but that can be raised if there's an operational requirement or a necessity for it.

I know that's a very short answer to a very long or a potentially long question, but I can provide some additional detail.

[Translation]

Ms. Pierrette Venne: As you seem to be very much aware of what is going on in other countries, I would like to know whether you have anything written on this. Would you have a document that we could look at ourselves to see where we stand and which country we are most similar to? Do you have anything written on that, a study or something?

[English]

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes, there have been a number of studies done. In February of this coming year I will be attending a meeting in Brussels, the National Reserve Forces Council, which has a representative from each of the NATO countries and from Australia and New Zealand as well. I have data from those countries. It may not be as precise as you may wish in terms of salary by rank, but we could certainly acquire that, and we'll attempt to do so.

[Translation]

Ms. Pierrette Venne: That would definitely be interesting. Thank you. So it would be submitted to the clerk and we could have copies.

My other question concerns the report I am looking at. Obviously, when you don't sit on the Standing Committee on National Defence—I used to sit on the Justice Committee—you don't see these reports. The reserve restructuring report, which was made public on October 30, 1995, is fairly voluminous.

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I would like to know what happened to that report. Can we now say that 90 percent of those recommendations are already in effect? Can we say that, since it was supposed to start in April 1996, I believe? Can you tell me where we stand on this?

[English]

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I can start by responding that I'm very satisfied with the progress that's been made thus far, as a reservist.

An example of that would be the announcement today by the minister of the remains of a fairly extensive reserve get-well package, which aimed at raising reserve pay to 85% of that of their regular counterparts, which provided some assistance for those reservists who moved to a full-time position in another part of Canada. It, along with the reserve force retirement gratuity, is part of the recommendations of that commission. Some of the others have been implemented. I could certainly, through my staff, provide a list of those things for the committee.

I should add as well that the army, which were the subject of most of the recommendations—the land force—are in the process of restructuring, a process that will come to fruition in 1999.

All of the recommendations made by the commission that have an impact on the army are being acted upon, with the exception of, I believe, five or six. I could stand corrected on that, but I will certainly arrange for the committee to have access to that information.

[Translation]

Ms. Pierrette Venne: Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Mr. Wood, I believe you had a question.

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): General, since we're considering issues such as morale and attitudes in the Canadian Forces, I'm curious to hear your opinion about the relationship between the reservists and the regular forces.

I'm thinking that the long-term policy of increasing the number of reservists and at the same time giving them a bigger role in Canada's defence, as well as their rising pay rates, which you just mentioned, may damage the relationship between the two services.

Do you feel that the full-time personnel resent the recent changes that give more responsibility and money to the reservists? Do they have an uneasy relationship?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: If they do resent it, I haven't heard that, and that's encouraging.

The relationship has been and always will be based on mutual respect. That mutual respect is obvious to me when I travel across Canada and talk to both regulars and reserve, in all environments.

There are occasions when that mutual respect isn't there for a variety of reasons—local circumstances, personalities, those kinds of things. That mutual respect, though, comes from working together to a common goal, as much as possible to a common standard, and as much as possible with a common set of compensations and benefits in place—not that the benefits and compensations will be identical for reservists and regular.

There may be, in some instances, some resentment over that particular issue. On the other hand, I as a reservist don't need a married quarter and a regular doesn't need a reserve retirement gratuity because that person has a pension.

From time to time you may get a small amount of resentment expressed by somebody who wonders why they don't get the same package as their compatriot in the other component, but there are good and valid reasons for that.

Mr. Bob Wood: General Crabbe was here this week or last week and he had a lot of concerns about reservists in the armed forces, especially being deployed to Yugoslavia and Bosnia. His concern wasn't so much the fact that we're going there and that we're well prepared to go into that situation. His concern was what happens when they come back.

I know that the regular forces have things in place that deal with what happens, stress or whatever, when somebody returns. In the reservists' situation, there doesn't seem to be that fall-back available to them. Once they're back, they're scattered across the country and it's hard to keep track. They obviously experience some of the same problems as an active force member.

His concern was that enough wasn't being done to help the reservists when they return from active duty—if that's what it's called—in Bosnia.

I'd like to hear your comments and how you feel about that and how you feel that can be changed if that's the problem. He seemed to think that was a problem. I wonder if you share those views and how you can change it so it will be better.

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MGen S.T. MacDonald: Certainly the effect of that kind of stress on both regulars and reserves is a concern.

You're correct in that it is more difficult to provide the follow-up service to reservists. When they do return to Canada, an individual who may be living in Brockville, Ontario, for instance, is some distance from the supporting base that normally would provide those services. However, the reservist is aware of who to contact to obtain that counselling or advice or whatever it happens to be. That is being utilized. It's being utilized certainly better than it was in 1991-92, in the initial stages of this.

I should add from personal experience that one of the first programs designed to deal with this issue for reservists returning from operations was set up by a reserve unit in Calgary, the Calgary Highlanders, and the local district. It was a very effective program. In fact, the regular force borrowed some components of the program from that reserve unit.

This will continue to be a concern for regulars and reservists because not everyone who returns from Bosnia or Haiti or wherever is inclined in all cases to contact somebody for help. It's a matter of continuously, through the unit and through the chain of command, ensuring and encouraging that the person does so and spotting some of these tell-tale signs of stress.

Mr. Bob Wood: Is there a follow-up program? Do the reservists take the time to get in touch with these people once they've been back for two or three months?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes. I've asked that question in my own case where I live in Vancouver and have been assured by COs that reservists are using the support services that are there.

Just to add something else, it is a bit more difficult, because as you can appreciate as well, our regular unit deploys overseas with predominantly the number and the individual people who were there six months before. The reservists come into that situation, train with the unit for three months together collectively, and then deploy.

When the reservist comes back, in most cases that reservist doesn't have immediately available at his or her elbow another reservist who has done exactly the same kind of thing, whereas the regular does. On the base at Petawawa or Gagetown there is someone else with the same rank level and the same experience that they can talk this over with. That makes it a little more difficult for reservists.

I've found that in Vancouver, those reservists who have been on peacekeeping certainly network. They see each other reasonably regularly and they're certainly quite prepared to phone each other and see how things are going.

Mr. Bob Wood: I have one more quick question, Mr. Chairman. I'm just curious as to whether downsizing and the closures that have occurred in recent years have affected the ability of the reserves to recruit. You mentioned a little bit about it in your opening remarks. Particularly in the remote areas, with the move to consolidate our infrastructure in a small number of bases, can the reserves continue to recruit outside of the urban areas?

I'd also like to put that same question in relation to the cadet organizations. Are local cadet organizations vulnerable when military bases in the regions close? Can you answer those two?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: The cadet one, which is part of my responsibility, is a little bit easier to deal with. Cadets generally, in virtually every case except for a fixed training site, require less in the way of infrastructure and resources and personnel. It's somewhat easier to develop and continue a cadet corps in a relatively small community, a community that perhaps would not sustain a reserve unit. They're more viable in a smaller community.

In terms of recruiting in smaller rural areas, it is increasingly difficult. As we're well aware, Canada is an urban country. Depending on who you listen to, 78% to 85% of the population is living in major urban centres. That's the demographic we're dealing with in the military. That's where our market is. That's where our recruit potential lies.

Having said that though, I'm very reluctant to see the potential in the rural parts of Canada being ignored. I will certainly continue to look at ways of bringing those people into the reserves. In the north we do that with the rangers. That's definitely being done.

Mr. Bob Wood: Has that been brought up at all in your circles? Is there a committee to look into that? Are they bothered by it?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I think a lot of reservists are bothered by it, particularly those who live in smaller communities or in rural Ontario and rural Quebec, for example. It is part of the analysis being done on the reserve restructuring. We do have some subunits, companies, squadrons, and batteries that are in what one might call rural areas. Yes, those batteries, squadrons, and companies might be in some danger in terms of their potential to grow.

Mr. Bob Wood: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Good afternoon, gentlemen. I apologize for not being here to hear your brief. I've gone through it quickly and I have a lot of questions. I just want to see how many I can get in.

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I would like to start by saying I do appreciate you've acknowledged the value of the reserves for the way they really provide an ambassadorial service to the regular forces in our communities right across the country, and for the importance of reserves in rural areas. Percentage-wise, I would guess the number of reserves in rural areas, in spite of the distance people would have to travel to be involved, would be much higher than in urban areas. That's a guess. The statistic isn't important, but I know some rural areas where I'm quite surprised by the number of reservists.

My first question is just a basic question on the numbers you've given here. You're talking about the total force and the reserves and you say currently you have 60,000 regular force members and 30,000 members of the primary reserve. I've heard figures as low as 20,000 for the actual number of reservists, and commonly around 22,000 to 23,000 for the actual number of people we have there in the reserves right now. Could you just clarify for me the situation in that regard?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Perhaps I can illustrate it with reference to a company most of us are familiar with, Hudson's Bay stores. I could choose Eaton just as well. If I went to Hudson's Bay and asked how many employees do you have right now, it becomes a question of full-time and part-time, of course. If I asked how many of the part-timers are effective, which is a term we use in the military, that would be subject to definition. Would that mean they worked at all in the past year, they worked in the previous month, they worked in the previous week?

What we have in the reserve, among those 30,000, are people who, for a variety of, in most instances, very good reasons, employment or having been posted by their employer to an area where there's no reserve opportunity to serve, are still reservists. They may be in their reserve unit once every two months. They certainly will make every effort to get out for the two weeks or week of training in the summer.

So we're including people we maintain on the list, as it were, on the establishment, and such that we reckon we are going to get a return on that investment. In some instances, if that investment is not returned and that individual is not as available as we hoped, they are released from the reserve into the supplementary reserve. But that 30,000 number includes, of course, navy, army, air, communicators, not just the army.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Just how active would these people have to be? What would be the minimum requirement for these people to be included in the 30,000?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Generally if they have received a pay cheque in the previous 30 days, although I could stand corrected by the environments on that. The navy may have a slightly different standard for determining effectiveness.

That again would be a piece of information this committee would benefit from having, to have it broken down by environment. How many reservists are there, using the following criteria: serving at least once a month, serving but they have not served in the previous three months, that kind of thing.

Your comment about rural, if I could get back to that.... I wish I knew what the answer was statistically in terms of percentage representation. What I do know, though, is that a lot of reservists, after they have completed secondary education, go off to a CÉGEP or university or college, or to employment. Generally that employment or education is in an urban area, and the rural area, having recruited, done the initial training of that reservist, then loses that reservist and the potential leadership of that unit to a major urban centre. It's a fact of life we're wrestling with all the time in the reserves.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes, and the statistics might not mean that much either. You would find people from rural areas serving—

MGen S.T. MacDonald: You might want to look at rank structure and number of years of service, that kind of thing.

Mr. Leon Benoit: You comment here that we might be surprised to know that one in six of the land force personnel deployed overseas since 1991 has been reservist. What portion of the force that was in Haiti and that has been in Bosnia, is in Bosnia, is reservist?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Currently, in the last deployment to Haiti and Bosnia, you would be looking at between 10% and 20%. I don't think it has fallen below 10% and I don't believe it has gone over 20%. But in the early days in Bosnia, because of the reduced size of the regular force coming out of Europe and the availability of reservists and the rest of it, we could not have done this if reservists hadn't volunteered to serve in large numbers. We had a battalion that was 42% reservists, and by the time you got right into the sections, platoons and companies, you'd find that the percentage was even higher.

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Mr. Leon Benoit: On page 4 you talk about the poor retention and the obvious cost of training and losing and then training again and losing again. We were talking about a similar thing with pilots the other day, about the high cost of training them and then losing them. In your estimation, are there are two or three key changes that could be made to improve the retention rate and to get reservists more involved, in training in particular?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Some things are financial. They cost money. We're already doing that with the reserve force retirement gratuity that I referred to in my remarks. It was just recently announced, in late September. It's only now becoming well known to reservists. I have met a significant number of them. We're speaking here mainly of sergeants, warrant officers, captains and majors, people in whom we've invested a terrific amount of money and time. The response I've had from them is that they're delighted to see this, that it is enough to encourage their peers who are thinking of leaving—it's seldom themselves who are thinking of leaving, it's their peers, right?—to stay in for another few years. It definitely is a carrot that encourages a reservist to continue to serve, and it continues to pay back that investment we've made in that individual.

Mr. Leon Benoit: What about the issue of a job guarantee, particularly in federal civil service? You have a comment in here somewhere, or maybe it's a comment in another one of my documents, about the fact that there is a guarantee in the federal civil service but it's very weak. It's really not a guarantee. There is some policy on a job being there, but I think it's not good enough. Could you comment on that?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Within my branch there's an organization called the Canadian Forces Liaison Council. And it's been very successful, certainly in the past six or seven years, in encouraging public sector and private sector support for reservists, especially private sector support. That's now starting to spill over into our government.

Certainly the minister and the department are interested and are working towards clarifying and establishing that it will not necessarily be “may release this person for reserve service”; it should read “they should” or “will” or “shall release” that public servant for reserve service. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm optimistic that it will. There again, this committee can play a major role in ensuring that it comes about.

Mr. Leon Benoit: You would have thought that the leadership would come from the federal civil service rather than the private sector. That is a place where that government can say that there will be a job guarantee of some kind under certain circumstances.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: In retrospect, though, I think much more attention is being paid to this now than there was ten years ago because of our use of reservists, not just in peacekeeping but on maritime coastal defence vessels and a wide range of other activities. There's a much greater awareness within the department on the utility of having reservists and the availability of reservists when required. Consequently there's a need to produce some better legislation or some better public service language in the contract to produce that result.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I understand that some private sector companies have been quite good at making it as easy as they can for reservists to take part actively.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: In fact, if I can just carry on with that thought for a minute with the indulgence of the chair, some companies have been so impressed by the reservists they've met on their visits to reserve training that there are a number of companies now who advertise positions with the reserve. They specifically target reserves, reserve units and the reserve environments with notices of postings of jobs.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Because they're good employees?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes. And that's good for everybody. It's a win-win-win situation. The reservist benefits with full-time employment and is still available for part-time reserve service, the employer certainly benefits, and the Department of National Defence definitely does.

The Chairman: Mr. Proctor.

Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Thank you very much.

Welcome, Major-General MacDonald. It's nice to see you again.

• 1615

I wanted to begin with the issue of the 60,000 and 30,000 regular forces and reservists. That's obviously two to one. Then I notice elsewhere in your paper that the goal is for 20% of Canadian reservists to make up any operational force, or five to one. Is that a happy figure? Do you think that's realistic? Would you like to see that 20% be higher? What are your thoughts?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: It's certainly achievable. We have no difficulty getting 20% of qualified, capable, deployable reservists. As a reservist, of course I'd like to see it higher, but I also respect the fact that regulars look forward to the opportunity of also serving their country overseas and representing Canada, whether it's in Bosnia, Haiti or wherever.

I certainly wouldn't want to initiate some morale problems. There's the potential for this in regular force units by telling a young officer he or she isn't going because a reservist is going. There is that factor involved. Both components are prepared to live with some of that.

Mr. Dick Proctor: There would be differing circumstances where you're in a hot spot and the 20% rule might apply. But in a peacekeeping operation or in some kind of international Manitoba flood type of situation where we go to help out, we might see a lot more reservists than in a war-torn experience.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes. Part of the process within the military is establishing just what the risk is and how we're going to meet that risk. That involves an analysis of which units are available and who's available.

Mr. Dick Proctor: So you're not unhappy with the 20% figure at all as a goal.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: No.

Mr. Dick Proctor: Let me just quickly turn to the question of pay, because that's something else you talked about, and there are some anomalies. The goal is 85% of the regular force salary for the reservists. Is that correct? Am I understanding it?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes, it is. That was announced today. This is fairly late-breaking news.

Mr. Dick Proctor: I see. So as a result of today's announcement, some people will see an augmentation in their salaries?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: That's correct.

Mr. Dick Proctor: Thank you. Also on this retirement gratuity, it's our understanding that a reservist has to serve at least 10 years before he or she is eligible.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes.

Mr. Dick Proctor: Do they have to be in there 10 years to receive any benefits at all?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: The minimum period of service is 10 years.

Mr. Dick Proctor: Okay, thanks. Those are all my questions.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I mentioned in my comments that I'm concerned that the 5,000 or so reserve officers who are cadet instructor cadre, who administer, train, and lead our 60,000 or so cadets in Canada, aren't eligible for the reserve retirement gratuity. I think they should be eligible, although perhaps not at the same level because the required time of service per year is less for a CIC officer. But there should be some recognition of this service.

Mr. Dick Proctor: What would be a reasonable length of time, in your opinion?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: In the case of myself or Chief Warrant Officer Duncan, we're looking at seven days' pay for each year of service beyond the ten years. In the case of a cadet officer, off the top of my head—and I'd get an argument from cadet officers on this—it would be two or three days per year instead of seven.

Mr. Dick Proctor: Right. Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Mr. Price.

Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, General MacDonald, for joining us today.

I'll just continue on the reserve force retirement gratuity. You also mentioned a pension plan at the reserve level, but were you referring to the gratuity?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: No. I should clarify that. At present we do not have a pension plan for reservists.

Mr. David Price: That gratuity is a lump sum.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: It's a severance pay based on the regular force severance package. A large number of reservists of my acquaintance have worked for periods of two to fifteen years full-time, in many instances filling positions that would normally be held by regular force individuals. Those individuals do not receive pensions. I think we're remiss in not providing that for them, or at least the opportunity of contributing to a pension plan.

Mr. David Price: So there is a difference there. At present it isn't set up but it's something that is being looked at.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes.

• 1620

Mr. David Price: The other thing I wanted to address is community involvement of the reserves. I like to compare the reserves to a volunteer fire department. They compare very well as far as their enthusiasm in the community, getting involved and the things that they can do outside of that particular job that they're doing are concerned. But I've seen over the past years that there tends to be a decrease. They're still visible within the community, but there's a decrease in what they're doing in the community itself; as examples, a local fair or something like that, where they're helping out with police duties, communications, first aid, even helping the fire department with grass fires and that type of thing. As far as I can see, there has been a quite remarkable decrease in what they're doing now from what they used to do. They used to be much more involved in that type of thing. Is there...?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I suspect that part of the answer to that question lies in funding. A reserve unit, the commanding officers, whether they command ships' companies in Regina or the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa, have a budget. That budget doesn't get much larger year after year and in many instances has shrunk for a variety of reasons. The reserve CO faced with that situation is attempting to do a wide range of things, most importantly training, recruiting and retaining soldiers. As a matter of fact, part of the application of that money is towards a footprint in the community, a presence in the community. I would assume that when dollars are short, the one that suffers, perhaps not in proportion to the others, is the footprint in the community, and that's what you may be seeing.

Mr. David Price: If we look at the changing role of the military locally, one would think that maybe there is a good training opportunity there, a better training opportunity. In particular, we look at them doing peacekeeping operations and so on, and a lot of this type of thing is the same thing, it parallels very well with it.

I guess that's pretty well all I had.

Mr. George Proud (Hillsborough, Lib.): I just want to ask you, General, for your opinion. You talked a few minutes ago with one of the other people across the table on the time off from work business. In 1994, when we went across the country on this review of the defence policy, one of the issues we thought would be something wanted by everybody would be legislation, for instance, to make this become a reality. However, as we crossed the country we found that wasn't the case by most people, the reservists included. It surprised me. However, a couple of areas were very strong on it. Chambers of commerce put forward resolutions on it.

Just to hear your side of it, what do you feel? In those days—and it was only three years ago—there were people involved in the military industry, for instance, who weren't very fond of letting their people go on one or two or three missions. What do you think is working well? I know the liaison committee is doing a tremendous job on it. Do you think that's good enough? What are your personal feelings on the militia?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: The concept of legislation is appealing to some reservists. It's not particularly appealing to me, although I would have to tell you that when I was a young lieutenant it certainly was.

I've looked around a lot at other armies, and that gets back to the question asked earlier, what do other nations do?

Where there is compulsory job protection and legislation to release reservists, there is no doubt in my mind that in some instances it has precluded a reservist from finding a job with an employer, because that was an overhanging issue during the interview.

The Canadian way, I think, is to ask people to volunteer, and in wartime—with only two exceptions—we've done that. As long as reservists are volunteering to do these things, whether it's the flood in Manitoba or action in Haiti, I think we owe it to the employer to say “We're asking you to volunteer to let this person go” and encourage them as much as possible.

My thoughts on how to encourage them? Well, certainly the CFLC is productive; it recognizes the contribution made by employers. I would like to see some financial recognition, but this is certainly beyond my pay grade, and outside of my department, for that matter.

• 1625

What would happen if at the end of the year an employer, especially an employer of a limited number of reservists—not the MacMillan Bloedels or Essos of the world, but a small company with 20 or 30 individuals—received a document from the reserve CO and the reserve individual who serves in their company and in the reserve, stating that this reservist had been active for a month during the year and here was a tax credit for a small business? That would certainly be appealing.

Mr. George Proud: Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just to follow up a little bit on Mr. Proud's questions on legislation, I just couldn't see legislation beyond the federal civil service. If it's not needed, certainly let's not have it in the federal civil service either. But that's the one area the federal government has at least a right to look at and to consider. Beyond that, I just can't imagine putting in place legislation.

I have a comment on the announcement of the retirement gratuity. It seems to me I've heard the announcement before a few times. Is this the first real announcement? It seems like the third, fourth, or fifth.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: It was actually announced back in September in Winnipeg by the minister, during, as a matter of fact, a reserve recognition day, a recognition of Canadian Forces reservists in Manitoba, quite unrelated to the flooding. It had been planned months before. That was a fortuitous—although I hate to use the word for a flood—circumstance that focused some more attention on the reserve.

That particular day featured the premier of the province declaring publicly that reservists would be receiving time off from the provincial government and urging civilian employers in the province of Manitoba to do the same. The reserve force retirement gratuity was announced then, and it was only one element of what we generally term the reserve get-well program this year. This was a series of initiatives that had been ongoing as a result of the special commission on the restructuring of the reserves. The final elements in that particular package were put in place today, and that includes the 85%.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Was there much detail in the announcement today? I haven't seen the announcement.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: No.

Mr. Leon Benoit: There was very little detail, just a broad statement.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So we can expect two or three more announcements of the same program, giving a little bit of detail.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes.

I have one of the press releases in front of me. It establishes reserve rates of pay at 85% of the regular force rate, although it points out that entry-level recruits for reserves—and here we're competing with the minimum wage in urban centres—will be paid more than their regular force counterparts. Accommodation and rations are provided in the case of a regular, so there are some reasons for that.

It introduces several days a month of payment in lieu of annual leave for those individuals who are class A service. It also introduces accommodation assistance allowance to assist reservists who move to a full-time job in another location with the payment of rent and that kind of thing. It also includes some specialist pay.

I should add, just to clarify this, because you'll no doubt be asked this or observe it at some point, that the 85% is 85% of one day's pay of a regular, on the assumption that the regular works 365 days of the year. That's not normally the case, although I could certainly find regulars, men and women, who've served 365 days in the last year.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Oh, so you're saying it's not the same pay a regular would receive for the time they would normally work. It's one-365th of the pay on a daily basis that the reserve works.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: That's correct. It's 85% of one-365th. As a start, I'm pretty comfortable with that. I'd like to further define what is a day's work, and that's part of the job of my branch: to in future perhaps attempt to improve that. But it's certainly better than what we have now in most ranks and most trades. It's a step in the right direction.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I appreciate the clarification.

The Chairman: What percentage increase would that be?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: It's almost impossible to summarize in a sentence, because in some cases it remains virtually the same, and in other cases.... There again, I'd be delighted to provide that data.

The Chairman: Okay.

• 1630

Mr. Leon Benoit: Perhaps I could ask you about the role of the reserves, as you see it. I want you to comment on some different possible roles for the reserves.

Of course, in terms of natural disasters we know what happened in Winnipeg. As an aside, I think that was a very unfortunate thing to happen to Winnipeg and to the people in the area, but if you are looking for a silver lining in a cloud, I guess the silver lining was what it did for the reserves and for the Canadian military generally. You couldn't buy advertising like that. So I think that was a very positive result.

What about times of civil unrest in the case of riots, for instance, which we don't see much of in Canada, although we could, particularly with the volatile situation right now on Indian reserves, or in Quebec? If the separatist movement doesn't go along the way in which separatists would like it to, there probably will be some who would resort to violence, as did happen in the seventies.

Would you see riot-type situations, then, as a potential role for reservists, or would it be regular forces that would help out if needed?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I think the immediate response, as it has in the past, would come from regular forces, who are more generally available in unit-sized components. I think we'd all appreciate that one would not want to deploy individual soldiers to that kind of unrest, whether it's an earthquake, flooding, or rioting, for example, over the Grey Cup—you name it. I don't think we'd want to see individual reservists deployed to deal with that, to augment what amounts to the civil authorities, the police.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Are the regular forces really trained in such a way that it is appropriate for them to get into situations such as civil unrest?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: By training a combat-capable army, navy and air force, a lot of the training is transferable to an array of scenarios, including civilian disaster—earthquake, natural disasters. So a lot of the skill sets that soldiers, sailors and airmen have are applicable in those situations. But the armed forces, as many people have said, is the force of last resort to the civil authorities of Canada. It would certainly be with some concern that we would bring the military in when the civil police agencies still had not utilized their full capability.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay.

The Chairman: Thank you very much. Mr. Wood.

Mr. Bob Wood: I was going through some old notes on the reservists, General, that I had from back in May of 1996. It was suggested then by some of the witnesses before this committee that the reservists could be used as an outsource for the regular force. It was suggested that they could save money. Reservist outsourcing had been suggested for such areas as transportation, medical services, logistics, communications and recruitment.

I guess I'd like an update. Is outsourcing taking place? Was any more thought given to it, or is there going to be any more thought to doing it, or anything like that?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I guess we should clarify “outsourcing”.

Mr. Bob Wood: And the good general behind you, Mr. Arp, is going nuts.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I should clarify here that in May of 1996 or 1997 I was not in uniform. I was actually on the supplemental list. So I wasn't privy to some of the discussions about outsourcing.

If outsourcing includes using skilled reservists to, for example, fly a Hercules or Airbus, we're already doing that, and have been doing that for years, to replace regular force pilots who, because of lack of availability or attrition in the air force air crew trades, we don't have enough of. If it includes manning maritime coastal defence vessels, in the case of the navy—if that's the definition of outsourcing, and I'm not sure if we're talking about the same term here—then we're doing that as well.

• 1635

There are very few regulars on our new maritime coastal defence vessels. There are only two per vessel, about 73 reservists.

Mr. Bob Wood: What about communications and medical service? Do you know about any of that?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: We've certainly used reservists in all of those things, and we've used them in Bosnia and other places around the world where people are shooting at each other. I know reserve doctors who have deployed overseas. I know reserve lawyers who have, and communicators. I don't think the doctors have ever exceeded...well, maybe more than the 20% level in the case of medical personnel. But we're certainly utilizing them, not to permanently replace the required number of regulars to meet the contingencies that we might face tomorrow. We all have to recognize that the regular force is capable of meeting a wide range of contingencies on very short notice.

That gets back to the volunteer aspect, too. The reservists who went to Manitoba during the flood volunteered to go. In fact some naval reservists arrived three days ahead of time. There was an anticipation or assumption that they would be there a week later, and they were there within three or four days.

For the regular force, on the other hand, the unit goes to Manitoba. So that unit, as a cohesive organization, is more readily available on short notice than the reservists are.

So I don't think we're ever going to replace that regular capability, because it's required. If there's a prison riot somewhere in Canada, we need a regular force unit, perhaps, to assist the police and the correctional authorities.

Mr. Bob Wood: Back then, a year and a half ago, I guess they thought this was a good idea, that maybe it could save some money.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Reservists are definitely cheaper than regulars, on average. We'd have some difficulty if we extended that to some specific trades, especially aircrew.

Mr. Bob Wood: Thanks.

The Chairman: I have a few questions, General.

In the last Parliament we heard quite a few stories about the pay system and how reservists were having problems getting paid. Can you tell me if that problem has been addressed?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: It's being addressed. There are still problems. We have never had in the reserve a pay system that paid with 100% accuracy and 100% timeliness.

There's certainly one member of this committee who is as well aware of that as I am, who had some experience in this activity: Mr. Richardson, who at one time was the army senior reserve adviser. The situation then was very difficult for reserve COs, explaining to their soldiers why they weren't being paid accurately and in a timely manner. It's getting better.

We had a very negative experience with a pay system that operated only in Atlantic Canada on a trial basis. We've now eliminated that software approach, and we're onto something called RPSR, which some people will probably brief you on or mention in the course of their remarks. In the case of RPSR, it's only paying, in an automated sense, between 50% and 85% of reservists where this is being utilized. The rest of the reservists are being paid manually, and that's a concern to me, because that carries with it a significant personnel bill in terms of producing not the cheques themselves but the data that goes into producing the cheque.

So I'm not satisfied with the pay system in its present state. It is getting better, and there are some initiatives within the department that will probably produce a much better pay system, certainly in the next two years.

The Chairman: How much did we spend on that first system, that first computer system for the pay?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: That would be the interim reserve pay and personnel system, IRPPS. I don't know what the total amount was. I could certainly have that information provided to you.

The Chairman: Okay.

The second question I have for you is regarding your budget. You don't have a separate budget for the reservists. You're in with the land forces, if I remember correctly.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: The army reservists are in with the land force, navy with maritime, and so on.

The Chairman: I remember, again, from some of the witnesses we had heard during the last Parliament that they had strongly suggested that a special budget be allotted to them. I would like to hear your comments on that. Do you think that would be a good idea?

• 1640

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Whenever I have spoken to reservists about this—and they usually raise the issue, I don't—it seems there is some appeal in having your own budget. The danger in that, or the dilemma in that, as I've pointed out to them, is that in a age of computer technology and the ability to identify the cost of activities, I think reserve commanding officers might be surprised at how much it costs the system to provide services to their unit, whether it's petrol, oil and lubricants, or whether it's the maintenance of the armoury. In some cases those costs are well known. But if, for example, a reserve CO were given a global budget to include all of those activities and infrastructure, I think they would be nickled and dimed to death midway through the year by people making a claim on those scarce resources and saying “You owe us for all of the following things we're providing to your unit”.

The danger, to me, of identifying a reserve budget and allocating that specifically to reserve units, and this is on the assumption that it incudes everything that reserve requires—recruiting services, medical care, post-traumatic stress treatment, all those things—is that I don't think we're far enough along to have identified all of the costs to the extent where we could with confidence say to the CO, “Here's your role, here's your mission. We've given you enough money to do it.”

I also don't think the unit CO needs that responsibility, on top of leading and recruiting a unit.

The Chairman: Okay, thank you.

Mr. George Proud: To follow up on that, I think one of the big sore spots in all this arose during our debate on this, when it was found out that when General de Chastelain came back into the forces from Washington he was paid out of the reserves budget. I think that struck a chord that didn't go down very well with a lot of people, and a lot of reservists in particular.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Was there a question in that?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I believe it was a comment.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I want to follow up on some of the questions I was asking before on the possible role of the reserves. You commented that there is a wide enough training in the regular forces that if they're called in to deal with any type of civil unrest in particular, their training would allow them to deal with a situation like that adequately. I've heard it expressed by more than one person inside the forces, and from some people from outside that follow closely, that if in fact our regular forces are trained to deal in peacekeeping and are trained in some special way to deal with civil unrest, it is highly unlikely that they will be ever prepared for combat.

My question is kind of two-sided. On the one hand, if the training is so broad that people in the regular forces are ready to deal with civil unrest or peacekeeping, are they ready for combat? Can they be? Because it's a different type of mentality, I would think, in a lot of ways. If you're going to have a sharp combat unit, I wonder if the training they're getting would in fact make that very difficult.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: There is no doubt that you're better off going into a situation of civil unrest or natural disaster with a well-trained military unit, be it navy, army, air force, whatever.

Perhaps I could go back to an analogy introduced earlier by one of the other committee members—that of the fire department. The fire department in my community is excellent, as it is in most communities from which you individuals come. But they do a number of things in addition to fighting fires, because fortunately we don't have many large fires in the neighbourhood in which I live. We do have a fire department, though. That's part of the role of the military too, in another context. We don't have a lot of wars, but we do have a military, because when there is a war we need one.

The fire department, though, spend a lot of their time doing fire prevention. They also spend a lot of time in my own community doing CPR and resuscitation. They're the first people you'd want to call, instead of the ambulance, if someone in the home had a heart attack.

• 1645

Having said that, though, I certainly wouldn't want to train the fire department to deal only with those two particular functions, and I sure wouldn't want to have an army trained to deal only with a low level of conflict or of threat or problems in the community. When we do call upon the fire department actually to fight a fire in my community, I certainly want them to be a highly trained, highly skilled team, one that can deal with a fire, save the victims, and get on to the next one. I'm a bit concerned that if we lower the expectations based on what we tend to use the fire department for in peacetime we're going to be deluding ourselves about their capability when a real crisis occurs.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I agree with that; and in fact that's my concern. This broad training might have a very negative impact on the ability and preparedness for combat. We should never assume we're not going to need our combat troops. I would love to believe that, but I don't, and I think it would foolhardy for us to do so.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: But in my own case, the army, training the army to fight alongside the best against the best, as other people have said, and I concur, it's much easier to add on the additional skill set required to deal with a present disturbance or an earthquake than it is to take the earthquake preparedness team and turn them into a fighting force.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Think of a combat situation where we really need the combat troops. Would our reserves be ready to step in beside the regular forces to take part? Canada has an excellent record of volunteers coming into a war and being trained and somehow performing extremely well.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I could go back to the example earlier of the battalion in Bosnia. It was an infantry unit, the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, PPCLI, and the Medac pocket, which was a shooting incident. There was a lot of shooting. The reservists acquitted themselves extremely well, because they were initially well trained, as were their regular counterparts. The experience level of the regular counterparts a year before that incident would, of course, be greater than the average reservist's.

But the two groups, the two components, were brought together for three months. And we're not likely to reduce that period before we deploy a composite unit overseas, not just to integrate the reservists into that unit in that three-month period but to reintegrate a regular, a sergeant, for example, who may have spent the previous three years in a recruiting centre in downtown Ottawa. So it's not just a matter of bringing the reservists up to the standard, it's a matter of bringing the entire unit up to the standard. And no, we're not going to commit them unless we're convinced they are ready to go.

The Chairman: Mr. Clouthier.

Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): General, comparatively, just for my own information, has an analysis ever been done on, say, the age of the reservists as compared with that of the regular forces? Secondly, are the same requirements for getting into the regular services applicable to the reservists? What about gender?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Same requirements, same standard. The recruiting process is virtually identical. In fact, I'm confident it is identical.

On gender balance, if I could speak about cadets as well, because that's part of my responsibility, any cadet corps in Canada is probably more representative of the community in both gender and ethnic diversity than the regular force is, for a whole bunch of reasons. A regular generally is an older individual, and some of the ethnic diversity in Canada has only been here in the last 10 or 15 years. There hasn't been time for that age group to get into the regular force.

The reserve units are somewhere in the middle. They are more representative than the regulars in female participation and in ethnic diversity. I'm confident, though, having said that, it certainly is changing the regular force, and it will change even more, because a lot of reservists choose to join the regular force, and a lot of those reservists are women, and a lot of those reservists are visible ethnic groups within Canada.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: What about the age median? Would you know offhand?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: No. I would say by rank reservists tend to be somewhat younger than their regular force counterparts. Chief Warrant Officer Duncan, who has been at this a long time....

Would you concur with that?

Chief Warrant Officer R.J. Duncan (33 Brigade): Yes, sir.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: One other question, General. How do you determine how many reservists there would be, or what the percentage of the regular forces would be, in deploying to Bosnia or to Haiti or to overseas, or I guess any place the regular troops would go to? How do you determine that?

• 1650

MGen S.T. MacDonald: We've determined, or the army certainly has, that 20% is a reasonable expectation in terms of availability of reservists and also in terms of integration of the reservists into that unit, because, as I mentioned, it has to go over as a cohesive organization, a team.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: So the general rule of thumb is you try to have at least 20% reservists?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Well, up to 20%.

One of the reasons for that—and I mentioned it briefly—is there's also the issue of morale in the regular force. Many, many thousands of young Canadians join the armed forces because they would like to be in the military and involved in that is representing Canada as part of peacekeeping or peacemaking. If we were to say to them that they're not going—this is particularly true of young members, not those who've been two or three times—

Mr. Hec Clouthier: No.

MGen S.T. Clouthier: —it's very difficult for them to accept the fact that they're not going because a reservist is going and then have that happen again and again. I don't think they'd stay with us, regular or reserve.

So we need to balance this very carefully.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: My home riding is CFB Petawawa and that's one of the things that I hear from the regular forces. I totally agree with you. Especially the younger troops say that they'd like to go and represent their country. I found this rather surprising in one way, but they want to go and there's a certain—not hostility, but fragility in this situation because some of the reserves are going and they're not going.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes.

The same is true on the other hand, too. The reason it's 20% or up to 20% is we'd like to remind reservists that they are required, that part of Canada's commitment is overseas deployment and it also requires reservists to fulfil that responsibility.

Again, it's like the fire department. I know people that are in volunteer fire departments throughout British Columbia, and if they don't get to go to a fire, they leave the fire department. If the regular firefighters do all the firefighting, then you're not going to see many volunteer firemen around.

Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): I'm just following up on some of the line of questioning that Mr. Benoit had with respect to the combat-readiness issue, because Mr. Wood and I were just talking briefly about that unit that you mentioned, the CPCLI, in Bosnia in the situation that they faced. I think there was a series in the Ottawa Citizen on that particular unit. That was probably, based on the news reporting, one of the fiercest battles that Canadian troops have been involved in since the Korean War. Was it not?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Exactly. That unit, when you get into the companies and the platoons and the sections, the people carrying the rifles and the machine-guns, is over 40% reservist.

Mr. David Pratt: This may be a difficult question to respond to, but I'm just wondering, in connection with how the reservists acquitted themselves under those sorts of circumstances, if there was a higher incidence of stress problems when they got back to Canada, or were they representative of the general population in terms of the regular forces?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: My understanding—and I was in the primary reserve when they returned—is that there was no appreciable difference.

Since that's a very significant bit of the history of the evolution of total force, perhaps the committee at some point, especially when it's travelling across Canada, might meet some of the individuals who were involved in that. Certainly many of them are still serving—the vast majority, I would suspect.

Mr. David Pratt: Do you know if there were any decorations that came out of that? I'm thinking of awards of any kind, in terms of bravery, and what the distribution was between the regular forces and—

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I don't know about the distribution. We've never tracked that in conflict or wartime or peacekeeping.

Certainly there were decorations and mentions in dispatches.

Mr. David Pratt: I guess the bottom line is that you're completely satisfied that, in terms of combat-readiness, training, etc., there is no difference between the reserves and the regular forces in their ability to do the job in a very difficult situation.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: There is a difference on the day the unit initially comes together for the three month pre-deployment training. There is no appreciable difference at the end of the three months.

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I should qualify that a bit. There still will be a difference in terms of experience, but in terms of battle task skills and the standard, particularly at the level of corporals, privates, captains, and lieutenants.... Where we start to see a gap occurring is beyond those rank levels for the non-commissioned members and the officers, where there simply has not been enough opportunity for the reservist to acquire the same experience that a regular force warrant officer had.

There are exceptions to that. There are definitely exceptions to that, but as a general rule it's more difficult to have both components at the same level throughout the rank structure.

Mr. David Pratt: I imagine there have been lots of reports within DND in terms of that particular situation and how the two work together. Thank you.

Mr. Bob Wood: I like that idea of having someone come before the committee who was in that particular unit. Is there any way we can get any numbers or names or something that the clerk could contact?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes, I'm certain there would be.

Mr. Bob Wood: So the clerk could contact those people? I think it would be interesting to talk to those people and hear their story.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I've spoken to a number of them, obviously, but it's far better to hear it from them, from the people who were actually there.

Mr. Bob Wood: The reservists.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes, and the regulars.

Mr. Bob Wood: That would be interesting. If you could do that and give it to the clerk, that would be great. Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I have one last round of questions.

First of all, I'd just like to get some idea of the number of reservists who end up going into the regular forces after they've served in the reserves and the number of regular forces who quit and go into the reserves or are involved in the reserves in some way.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: The answer to that is not enough and too many.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Oh, really?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: If you're a regular force individual and you've met a lot of these reservists who come in, then it's not enough. If you're a reserve CO and you've lost them, then it's too many.

I'm not sure what the percentage would be. It probably varies quite a bit by environment—sea, land, air—and by trade and cap badge. That might be useful information. I know it's generally a topic of discussion when commanding officers of reserve units get together, the fact that they have lost some very skilled men and women to the regular force. It's with some reluctance that they see them go, but especially now in a total force context, most of them recognize that this is part of the responsibility. Yes, we are getting a return on that in the form of regulars who choose to join reserve units when they leave the regular force.

Mr. Leon Benoit: You're getting a substantial number then.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Certainly more than when I was first serving, 25 years ago.

Mr. Leon Benoit: My last questions are to do with what happens to reservists once they come back from a tour of duty somewhere, either inside the country or outside. I understand there's a six-week period where if they come back safe from Bosnia they stay with the regular forces to kind of ease out.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: There is a period of time after deployment when they do come back and they're with their peers from that deployed unit for a period. It could be weeks but I don't think it would be six weeks. There's certainly a leave period where they do have some time and if it's a case of stress there is an opportunity to get together with some counsellors to deal with that. Both units attempt to maintain contact with them: the host unit, the regular unit that gained this individual; and the reserve unit, of course, that is their regimental home.

Mr. Leon Benoit: We've been told by some other witness who was here before, or maybe more than one, that there's a program being designed to monitor reservists once they are no longer active, once they come back from a deployment, to ensure that their medical needs and other concerns are met.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: How far along is that? Is it effective yet? Do you feel there's still an awful lot to be done to implement? Is it just an announcement without any detail or is it actually in operation right now?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: My understanding is that it's still being developed. It has not reached the end stage yet.

Medical care for injuries sustained on operations is absolutely being provided to reservists.

Mr. Leon Benoit: That's being monitored?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I've had some concerns and so has Mr. Hanger. Actually, he's come across a doctor who has dealt with several people who.... I don't know if they're all reservists; they might not be. I've talked to three or four people who are no longer active and yet have hearing problems that they are absolutely determined result from their time in the reserves.

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If Art and I were to approach some of those people and if they want to come forth, is there any reason for us to do that? Would someone be willing to take a look at this, listen to these people, hear their concerns and do something about it if there's a valid case presented?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: I originally assumed you were referring to either stress or physical injuries that were definitely incurred on operations.

Mr. Leon Benoit: This is trickier. The one doctor Mr. Hanger was talking to me about—this is second-hand, and I wish he were here but he's in Trenton today—said he's seen several people and what they are saying makes sense. Their injuries probably occurred when they were serving. Yet they have had no medical follow-up. There's just the medical system, which doesn't work very well sometimes. There can still be a lot of expenses.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Certainly when I left the primary reserve to go on the supplementary list about three years ago, an audiogram hearing test was part of that release procedure.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Oh, really?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: So if that wasn't done and it was a requirement, then that's a mistake and they've missed something. But I'm also quite confident that the organization that deals with military pensions would be interested in hearing from an individual. As you said, it's very hard to attribute hearing loss to a specific incident or incidents in military service. That's far trickier than an actual physical injury that's apparent to the doctor examining the person in Bosnia.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I just can't say whether any of these people received an audiogram when they were released or when they left. Okay, thank you.

The Chairman: Do reservists receive any financial help if they are parents and have to be deployed?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: No. There is no financial help that would not normally come to them if they were working full-time in Canada.

I thought you focused on this because of the American experience, where in some cases both parents were deployed overseas. To my knowledge, that certainly didn't happen in the Gulf War, and I don't think it has happened in Bosnia. Now I could stand corrected on that, but generally speaking, one of the parents is at home or remains back in Canada.

That raises an interesting issue, though. There are family support organizations on bases.

The Chairman: Yes, but they're for the regular forces. Would the parent left at home by a reservist have access to these services?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Some definitely would, because even though they are not in close proximity to a base, there is some telephone support and that kind of thing. There's also assisted travel for the spouse to meet either in Europe or here. But I'm not aware of any—

The Chairman: I'm thinking more of a support group or something. Your husband or your wife is gone for seven or eight months and you need somebody to talk to about some of the problems you are experiencing at home.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Most reserve units, not all of them, are quite adept at tracking who is away, where they are, and what the individual's circumstances are. Most reserve units are pretty decent about keeping in touch with the family of that reservist. I can think of a couple of instances in particular where the family was visited by the unit chaplain and that kind of thing, or a couple of the spouses of members who were in the unit dropped by to see how they were doing.

The Chairman: One last question. In the regular forces, sometimes when a member runs into financial problems financial counselling is available. Is that counselling available for reservists also?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: It's not available to the same extent. It's really only provided to reservists through the unit commanding officer and senior NCOs in the unit. But it's not unknown for an RSM of a unit to sit down with a soldier and talk to about his or her spending practices or at least be available to help them with some counselling or some advice. But there's no formal program like what you might find on a base.

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The Chairman: Last year, when we were travelling, I think that in some circumstances some of the regular forces could even have loans to help them out, if I remember correctly. Would that be available also if it is true for regular forces?

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Not using department money. Not that I'm aware of. It could be available, but I'm certainly not aware that it is.

Some funds that are held by the regiment are not public funds. These are regimental funds that are donations to the well-being of the regiment made by retired members, and that kind of thing. It's not unknown for that fund to be used when there's a crisis.

I can think of one in particular where the family lost their house, and the unit assisted them with a cheque. It wasn't a department program and it wasn't departmental money that was being expended, of course.

The Chairman: George, do you have a last comment?

Mr. George Proud: Yes. I have a follow-up to Mr. Benoit's last question. He was talking about these people who had hearing problems or whatever the case may be. If they served in a theatre and all else, they could apply to Veterans Affairs. They would be eligible to apply for that.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: Yes.

Mr. George Proud: Now, whether they get it.... They have to go through the process, but it's there for them.

MGen S.T. MacDonald: They're veterans.

The Chairman: General, I want to thank you very much for all that information this afternoon.

If there's nothing else, I'll bring this meeting to an end. The meeting is adjourned.