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CANADA
Standing Committee on Official Languages
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EVIDENCE
Tuesday, February 15, 2011
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
[Translation]
Good morning everyone and welcome to the 40th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.
[English]
This morning, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f), we are studying volume II of the 2009-10 annual report of the Commissioner of Official Languages referred to the committee on Tuesday, November 2, 2010.
[Translation]
First, it is our pleasure to have representatives from the Department of Health before our committee. This morning, we have the Deputy Minister of Health, Ms. Glenda Yeates.
Welcome to the committee, Ms. Yeates.
She is here with the Associate Assistant Deputy Minister and Champion of Official Languages, Health Products and Food Branch, Ms. Catherine MacLeod.
Welcome, Ms. MacLeod.
We also have the Director General, Human Resources Services Directorate, Mr. Gérard Étienne.
Welcome.
With any further ado, I would invite you to make your opening statement. We will then continue with questions from members of the committee.
Ms. Yeates.
Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Good morning.
I am pleased to have this opportunity to tell you about what the department is doing to improve our performance in terms of official languages. I believe that communicating with Canadians in both official languages is an essential element of helping Canadians improve and maintain their health. This is true whether we are issuing health warnings, or educating Canadians about making healthier choices.
[English]
This is especially critical in a country as large and diverse as Canada. That's why, as deputy minister, I take very seriously the results of Health Canada's 2009 official languages report card. Regrettably, it shows that while we do well in some areas, overall we have much work to do. Like all report cards, it tells us where we have to improve.
[Translation]
Despite our good intentions, the report makes it clear that there are number of areas where we need to improve, including equitable representation, language of work, and some front-line services to the public. Francophone employees working for Health Canada in the National Capital Region, and outside Quebec and the NCR are under-represented. And, while we have made progress we are still under-represented in terms of anglophone employees in Quebec.
[English]
We also know that despite having bilingual employees in bilingual positions, they do not consistently greet the public in both official languages. We take our responsibility seriously and appreciate that we still have work to do. The report card will be very helpful in focusing our efforts. I agree with the Commissioner of Official Languages that leadership and commitment are key to achieving the outcomes we all desire.
Along with my senior management team, I'm working to reorient our official languages strategy and to improve our performance. We are already working on finalizing and implementing a framework for action that will guide our efforts to respond to the commission's findings.
You may be wondering at this point why we don't have a finalized plan, and I am saying that we're still working to finalize it. I want to assure the committee that our department in fact has prepared a plan. While I believe it's very solid, when I reviewed it, I personally wanted to see more of the specifics driven into the plan so that we could be very clear on the specific actions and measures that I have taken, and we've agreed to add those additions to the plan. Staff are currently in the process of preparing this more specific version of the plan.
I've been speaking to you about our plans and our commitments, but I also want to reassure the committee that we have some very solid building blocks of success to build on as we move forward. While I've acknowledged a number of areas that we'll be working to address, we do have a number of successes that the commissioner also pointed out.
Health Canada already has a cross-Canada network of official language coordinators who encourage employees in designated bilingual regions to feel free to work in the official language of their choice in written and verbal communications.
[Translation]
At Health Canada, we expect managers to promote the use of both official languages in the workplace. In fact, this will be built into their annual performance objectives.
When it comes to how we greet members of the public in person, we know we must improve the offer of services in both official languages. To ensure we do, we are going to increase the frequency of monitoring employees' performance in this area from once a year to four times a year overall.
[English]
We will use this additional data to provide feedback to employees and their managers on their results. We will know very quickly whether we are seeing improvements or whether further action is required. As I mentioned, these results will also be included in the performance objectives for managers, highlighting their importance and focusing attention.
One area where as a department we have been able to make some significant progress in supporting official language minority communities is in the support for these communities. By 2013, Health Canada will have invested more than $300 million over 10 years to improve access to health care for official language minority communities.
Thanks to this investment, by 2013 we expect 15,000 health professionals to have received French and English second language training in Quebec. We also expect to see close to an additional 3,400 French-speaking health professionals working outside Quebec. We believe these measures will significantly increase the opportunities for citizens across the country to receive health care in the language of their choice.
In shaping these programs and priorities, Health Canada has consulted widely with minority language communities. I personally have met with La Société Santé en Français and Le Consortium national de formation en santé, and have heard both their points of view and their support for these programs.
[Translation]
The department has also been developing programs that support the department's official languages strategy, such as the science management development program and its aboriginal management development program.
These programs offer language training to some of our up-and-coming employees as part of their career development. These and other initiatives show promise for improving linguistic duality at Health Canada.
[English]
In summary, there are successes in Health Canada just as there is much work to do.
I'm relatively new to the federal public service. My public service career has been largely in health and health care, including as the provincial deputy minister of health in Saskatchewan. But as an anglophone from the west, I have long sought opportunities
[Translation]
for I myself to learn and improve my French.
[English]
I have a very strong commitment to serving the public and to Canada's official languages. I want to assure the committee that I am committed to providing the leadership that's need on this file, and I and my management team are up to the challenge.
[Translation]
I, along with my colleagues, will be happy to answer your questions.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will start things off in a different way this morning. I will ask Ms. MacLeod a question.
Ms. MacLeod, as champion, what do you do on a daily basis to champion official languages?
As champion, I realize that our department still has some work to do. However, I have a great deal of energy and enthusiasm and I intend to work closely with the deputy ministers and my colleagues on the executive committee.
I myself sit on the Health Canada executive committee. Every day, I speak French with my colleagues. During official meetings, we have discussions on the way in which we can improve the culture and language of work in our department so that people can be comfortable communicating in both official languages.
[English]
So for me it's a passion. I have an energy that I bring to my role as champion, but I do realize that we still have a way to go in terms of bringing up the level of comfort in the workplace and the culture of ease.
Basically, my mandate is to support the deputy, to support the executive team and the department, in terms of encouraging, supporting, and bringing visibility to linguistic duality, focusing on the workplace and the importance of working in both official languages, communicating with Canadians, and client service.
But for me as champion, my main objective for this coming year, under the new plan the deputy has articulated, will be to focus on language of work at Health Canada.
[Translation]
Ms. Yeates, in your statement you said that you are reorientating your plan. Where is it coming from and what are you reorienting it towards?
Thank you for the question.
The grade the commissioner gave us confirms that we still have a lot of work to do. We reviewed the former plan and wondered what we can add to it to improve our results. We have taken more specific steps. We know, for instance, that when someone arrives in our offices, that person does not automatically hear “Hello; bonjour.”
We do that on the phone quite well. In over 85% of cases, in fact; so we got a good grade on telephone service in both official languages.
However, in-person response leaves something to be desired. To improve the situation, we have taken specific measures; we ourselves asked for an assessment to be done four times a year, so that office managers can check their progress, and get a picture of what is going on in their offices every three months.
[English]
[Translation]
Probably within a month. We are almost done. We have a general plan and we will be adding more specific measures to it.
Thank you.
[English]
In the mandate you received from the Privy Council, is official languages highlighted or mentioned?
Yes, it is.
As I mentioned, I'm a fairly new deputy minister; I received my letter of offer as a deputy minister last April. There's a package that comes with the appointment, and in that is included the responsibilities of deputy ministers. Official languages is highlighted in that package.
Yes, it is. In my overall performance assessment...there are many things that deputy ministers are looked at to do, and obviously supporting the responsibilities of official languages is one of those.
I suppose you would have to ask the assessors that question. But my understanding is that the overall performance of a deputy minister is looked at, including this. Obviously we have things like the report card from the Commissioner of Official Languages, but in terms of that process, you would have to really ask others. I'm not familiar....
Yes. All deputy ministers submit a report, as I understand it, at the end of the year to the Clerk of the Privy Council. There's a discussion that takes place, I understand, and then we are assessed and given--
Not as a deputy minister. I have as an associate deputy minister. I was an associate deputy minister for almost a year in advance--
I have to say that I don't recall whether that was in my package as an associate deputy minister. It likely was--
[Translation]
Whom did you consult in the development, modification or reorientation of your plan, aside from the Commissioner of Official Languages?
If I may, Mr. Chair, I will start by answering the question regarding the commissioner.
We invited him to come and speak to us. We specifically wanted to know how we could support our staff, how we could continue to make progress once our staff has received the official languages training. We discussed that, but we also discussed what is happening in other government departments to find out about other success stories, and the best ways to get results.
[English]
We also have the benefit of the reports Monique Collette did just last year on the subject of how to practically support a number of things, including bilingualism in the workplace. She was charged by the clerk to travel the country and give us the examples of best practices in being a diversity employer, including a bilingual employer, and she came back with some very specific best practices—for example, “This is what they're doing in certain departments in Calgary”, or “This is what they're doing in a certain department in Halifax.” We've consulted that, and, again, through that network we also have the ability to understand how we as a department learn from others and have the best opportunities.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
If a Health Canada employee drafts a document in French for his supervisors, is that well received?
Yes, thank you for the question.
Mr. Chair, I am pleased to respond.
It is quite clear, on our executive committee, that verbal or written presentations can be made in either English or French. It is very important for that to be so.
The commissioner noted that not all of our employees feel comfortable expressing themselves in their own language at meetings. Our department is very big and we know that we must inform them of the fact that they may do so. We must be open to English and French. So I think we do...
You say that they do not feel comfortable. Is it not rather that they are afraid that, if they write something in French, it will lengthen the process? First of all documents like that need to be translated. Then the writer reviews it and may notice that it is not exactly what they meant. All of this delays the process and may displease their supervisors.
[English]
Again, thank you for the question, and I'm happy to respond.
I think for that very reason we actually believe it is better for people to write the text in their language of comfort, so the nuances are not lost. We have a department that is highly scientific. We have a department where there are many very important decisions made, very important for the health of Canadians. We therefore want to encourage our employees to write their text, make their presentations, in the language that is clearest for them. That is what we are in the process of reinforcing with our managers and with our staff, so that in fact they all feel they have that ability.
[Translation]
Ms. MacLeod, what do you do to encourage people to speak French at the Department of Health? According to your results, on page 27 of the Commissioner of Official Languages' second report, the situation is not very rosy.
Thank you for the question.
I work closely with my colleague, Mr. Roy, the chair of the Council of the Network of Official Languages Champions. My colleague, the assistant deputy minister, and I have developed methods to communicate with managers and staff. On occasion, for instance, on Francophonie Day, Linguistic Duality Day, we ask them to encourage people to be brave, to dare to express themselves in both official languages, to dare to use their second language and further promote the use of both official languages within the department. It is true that there is still work to be done.
Ms. MacLeod, you understand that my question is not about both official languages; it is about French. It is about making francophones feel comfortable, not like renegades, if they use French when they draft documents for their supervisors.
We know that the machinery of government is far more anglophone than it is francophone, so there may be undue pressure on francophone employees. If one of them hopes one day to get a promotion but is seen as someone who uses French more often or too often, his career may be put on ice for a very long time. It may also be the case that employees feel uncomfortable using their own language because they do not feel at home in this department.
You were referring to Francophonie Day. My background is in education. I taught francophones in both Saskatchewan and in Ontario. We also used to do a lot of language promotion, but we did it on a regular basis so young people could be proud of speaking French. You have one francophone pride day per year and you think that is how you are going to solve your problems.
No, it is actually every day. It is about speaking both official languages at each meeting, trying to have presentations in both English and French, gradually changing the culture during each interaction and each communication.
So that is how you encourage people to write their texts in French.
Do you have an assessment grid for results, to see whether francophones really do feel comfortable? That is not what is indicated in the commissioner's report.
Mr. Chair, perhaps I can answer that question.
We are very determined to get information that allows us to assess our progress and that tells us whether our employees feel more comfortable.
In the past, we got updates from Statistics Canada. We do not know when those will be coming in. That is why Health Canada decided that, if there is no survey for the entire public service, we would come up with our own, internally, to make sure we know what our employees think, to know whether the situation is improving, whether we are reaching our objectives, whether our employees feel more comfortable in their mother tongue.
We decided to get the information we needed to judge peoples' attitudes and experiences. I agree, we need to get a good understanding of the employees' experiences, that is the information we need in order to make decisions.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would also like to welcome you.
First, I would like to congratulate you for your A grade. People need to be congratulated when they deserve it.
Unfortunately, you also have had Ds and Es. That is certainly not encouraging.
Could you explain one thing to me? I am looking at the report, and it looks good. Visual active offer is at 86%, which is good. However visual offer, when you say hello and welcome people in both languages and the other person does not speak your language, it seems to drop down to 30%. Apparently, active offer by your people is provided in 30% of cases.
Ms. MacLeod, you are the official languages champion. You say you have energy for this program. How long have you been working at this department?
You are at 30% today. That happened between January and April 2010. So, you can say that you were not there when this happened.
We are looking at 30%, and you arrived in June. Is that one of the reasons why you got this position?
Yes, the Department of Health got 30% on active offer. You say that you want to work energetically with your colleagues. That is what you said.
What differences have you noticed since you arrived in June?
There is still some work to be done, that is for sure. However, we have done a lot of work since June, starting with discussions at the executive level and a change in perspective in the area of official languages, specifically in the area of client services. We have had discussions with the regions. As Ms. Yeates said, we have also determined what we are going to put into our action plan, including ways of measuring our performance.
Before the commissioner did his investigation, had anyone noticed that things were not going well in the area of official languages? The idea of official languages is not new; the act has existed for 40 years.
We thank the commissioner for having pulled out these figures. It would seem [Inaudible] that it was a wake up call for everyone, or will be. We can only hope that it does wake them up. This has been around for 40 years.
Thank you for your question.
Mr. Chair, we had adopted many measures before this report, of course, and we have made some progress.
[English]
While we know that, for example, as was noted by the member, our active offer of “Hello, Bonjour” is at 30%, which is not where we want to be, what we do find is that we've actually made significant improvement in the actual conversation that follows. Are people able to, once they have the conversation, start speaking in the language of their choice? In fact, we've done significantly better than we had done previously at that conversation and being able to offer services in the language of the choice of the Canadian.
So we actually find these ongoing reports very helpful. They help us understand where to focus. We focused and made improvements in certain areas. Clearly, we have not made the improvements....
[Translation]
Our grades are quite constant in our ability to say hello; bonjour. That is an area where we will be making some effort, to improve our performance, of course.
I know that the commissioner was quite interested in the matter of saying “Hello; bonjour”. However, imagine you are on Air Canada, and the flight attendant says “Hello; bonjour”, but, when you ask for a glass of orange juice, she says “I don't speak French”. “Jus d'orange” and “orange juice” sounds practically identical.
We are trying to pretend that all our problems will be solved if we say “Hello; bonjour”. But I have some difficulty with the service we have a right to expect after someone says “Hello; bonjour” to us. You really have to put yourself in other people's shoes. If people want service in their language, they have to go to [Inaudible--Editor] the end of the line and wait for someone to come and serve them. They should get the same treatment.
I am referring to service for individuals. It goes beyond “Hello; bonjour”. We could also raise our hands and not need to speak at all. I am talking about the way in which you serve clients. You got 30% for active offer. Saying “Hello; bonjour” to me does not make me all that happy. [Inaudible--Editor]. The issue is really about how you offer services to clients, and what is being done to improve things.
Thank you for your question.
[English]
We are very thoughtful that the active service is what really matters. I guess I would just say that the predominance of my career has been in health care. I'm very aware of how important it is for people to receive services about their health in the language of their choice. So we agree that it is the service that is fundamental.
Interestingly, we've made more progress; we're still not satisfied with where we are, but we've made more progress at actually providing the services to Canadians, so we see a significant increase there. Again, we're not saying we're where we want to be in terms of the ability to provide the service, but that is at over 50%.
Interestingly, in the place where we haven't moved, we do very well. We have one of the highest notes or marks the commissioner gave for service by e-mail. We were at 89% for service by e-mail. We were at 85% for the phone offer. We were over 50% for the actual service.
Where we still have difficulty is the “Hello, Bonjour”, and I'm absolutely in agreement with the member that it is just the beginning of the conversation. It is actually the provision of the service that is the thing that I think is most important to Canadians, and I'm happy to report to the committee that we have made some significant progress there.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to all of you for being here this morning.
Ms. Yeates, in your brief, it says, in the last paragraph on page 8: "By 2013, Health Canada will have invested more than $300 million over 10 years to improve access to health care for official language minority communities."
The Standing Committee on Official Languages was in Canada's North last week. I don't know exactly what the relationship is between Health Canada and the Department of Health of the Northwest Territories—perhaps my question should go to Mr. Étienne—but we were clearly told that it was a huge challenge to provide services in Canada's North. Indeed, it is difficult to recruit people who are willing to go work in the North, at any level in the health care system.
The amount of $300 million over 10 years is nevertheless very significant. What kinds of results are you expecting? Is it possible to believe that by 2013, in the Northwest Territories, there will be better health care in French with this program, in the Far North? Is it possible to imagine that?
Thank you very much for the question.
Mr. Chair, I am very pleased to respond to that.
Regarding the $300 million, we are very proud of our support for minority communities across the country. We began with consultations with minority communities. We asked them what their priorities were and what problems they had to face in the area of access to health care services. We are generally not the level of government which provides these services, but we can nevertheless provide training programs, for instance.
I can give you a couple of examples. The Government of Alberta put in place a telephone system to provide information and to answer questions such as: How do I get to the emergency department? There is a health care network in Alberta which said that this type of service was needed in French in Alberta. As a result, because of this type of contribution, we now have a French telephone service within Alberta's health care network.
A little earlier, you referred to services in the North. I could give you examples which also apply to northern Canada. In the Yukon, for example, a community health care partnership, which had received funding, updated the register of health care professionals and of bilingual social services, and it is fairly available to the public.
You gave us an interesting example. Over the last few months, several representatives from departments have told us that their department was doing a good job. In fact, the commissioner agreed, in light of the marks he gave to the various levels of various departments.
Regarding the telephone system which is now in operation in Alberta—is that right?—and which you have just mentioned, you are probably in a position to assess the results. If this turns out to be a good service, would it be possible to apply it throughout Canada? Or does it only work in Alberta? Perhaps it could also be put to good use in the Northwest Territories, for example.
You asked whether this service is now available in Alberta. I must admit that I am not sure. I'll look into it. I know that it's one of our projects, but I could not tell you whether it is truly available to the public at this moment. I will check.
[English]
In terms of the support for minority language communities, we have dealt with each community. We've worked with a network in each area, because the needs have not been the same. In Alberta that was one of the needs they had flagged. In the Yukon, they flagged a different need. In New Brunswick and parts of Quebec, they have flagged other needs.
I think one reason the commissioner gave us an A in this area of actually supporting official language minority communities was that we didn't assume we knew what those communities wanted in each case. We actually worked with those communities to say, where's the gap?
[Translation]
Where is the gap in your province, in your community? What do you want? We can't do everything, but we can ask what the priorities are, can't we?
[English]
If I've understood, in reading the commissioner's report, I think the projects are very strong, but the other thing is that these are not Health Canada's ideas; they are the ideas of the community, which gave us—
[Translation]
And lastly, I would like to ask about the relationships within the Northwest Territories. Is it the same situation as that of all other Canadian provinces? Do the territories have to provide the services, or does Health Canada do so in a more direct manner?
No, generally speaking, it's the same thing, the provinces and the territories provide health care services.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
In his report, the Commissioner of Official Languages said that each year, you organize round tables. I would like to know where and how these tables take place. Who is invited to these round tables? Is it always the same particular group? How does that work?
Thank you for the question.
I don't have my notes on the entire process with me. However, I can ask for them and inform the committee members about these processes. I know that there is a network in every region.
Thank you.
In 2009, there was a symposium which specifically dealt with access to services, as well as the teaching of science.
Again, I would like to know who was at the symposium—if you have this information—and what came out of the 2009 symposium.
Thank you for the question.
Mr. Chairman, I will gladly respond to that.
As I said, a symposium was held in November 2009. There were about 120 participants from across the country. I can provide the committee with the list of participants. I do not have it with me, but it will be my pleasure to provide it to you.
I think that it was the continuation of this update.
[English]
How are we doing? What is the future? What is working well.
Perhaps I'll ask my colleague Catherine to follow up on that, but in general, it was touching base, here's what we've done thus far, tell us your future aspirations, how we are doing, and the issues that people are encountering.
[Translation]
It was really interesting. The commissioner was there and he gave a speech.
[English]
It was a chance to bring together the official languages community who work in health and to focus on the research questions, as Madam Yeates was saying, to develop a vision forward. It was a one of a kind event for the communities. There was broad representation and very dynamic discussions around how official languages communities can input in the research questions early on and be a part of the way forward on health.
[Translation]
Perfect, thank you.
It is important to measure what was put in place. However, I am a bit concerned, because you said in your presentation that you intended to monitor the performance of employees in this area, namely four times a year.
Further, you also said that you would provide this information to employees, and to managers, so that they would find ways to improve their performance. It is a good thing to measure this, but you also have to give people the tools to do so. I am a little concerned to hear that. I hope that tools will be provided and that employees will not simply be monitored.
Thank you for your question.
Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to respond.
We completely agree. Once in a while, tools are developed. However, based on the results, you can see that we sometimes do not use them.
[English]
I think what we will get from the feedback is whether the existing tools are being used. It may also lead to conversations about tools that should be changed or modified in any way so they are more useful to employees.
We very much take this as a partnership. We have a very strong office of official minority languages, and I think that was another area where the commissioner gave us an A for strong program management. I think we have worked hard, through that office, to support and give the tools to our staff, but we certainly would be open to any feedback that comes back from that process about whether those tools should be improved in any way.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good morning to all of you.
I looked at your overall marks. They are good in some areas; but in others, you got an "E" and a "D". You cannot ignore this and you have to try to improve the situation.
Do you really have the human and financial resources you now need to adequately assume your responsibilities with regard to official languages?
Thank you for the question.
Yes, Mr. Chairman, I believe we have the resources, including a budget for language training, for instance. We are now trying to find more efficient ways to spend the money.
Yes. Thank you for the question.
[English]
Perhaps, as the commissioner noted, this is a large part of leadership. This is about setting the stage, making it comfortable for people, making it very clear we'll give them the tools, and we will—ourselves, myself, as an anglophone—do staff meetings, answer questions, no doubt make grammatical errors in a second language, but that is something I'm willing to do, that we, as a leadership team, are willing to do. Our sense at this point has been that the leadership things we need to do lie within some of the strategies we're putting in place: monitoring, giving feedback, making it top of mind for people.
At this point, it's not been our assessment that this is something that money will fix, necessarily. This is really about attitude and leadership, I think, and we are trying very hard to create that environment.
[Translation]
Last week, we travelled to the Northwest Territories. You realize that health care is extremely important because it is a first-line service. When people are sick and they do not speak the other official language, that might not be the best time to try to understand medical terminology. Sometimes, people even have to hire interpreters, and they are not health care experts either. All of these medical terms are difficult to understand, and for people who are sick, it is extremely daunting.
Do you intend to change this situation, to improve it, because it really is a serious issue?
Thank you for the question.
Mr. Chairman, I agree. Having worked my entire life in the health care sector, I know it is very important to receive services... This is the reason why we have invested $300 million.
[English]
I don't have a list with me of the priorities that have been given through these consultations, through the Northwest Territories—
[Translation]
[English]
Oui, but we have worked very hard to improve the services with the minority language for precisely the reasons the member notes. It's a critical area. As I say, I don't have list of what we've done in this regard in the Northwest Territories. I know we have some projects in the north, and I will be happy to furnish the committee with that.
[Translation]
It would be interesting to see your list of future projects, because the situation in that region is truly critical, and it might be that way elsewhere, too. It is therefore important that we do something fairly quickly.
I know that in Quebec, there are English hospitals. If people want care, they can receive care in their own language. The same thing should be available elsewhere, so that people can receive health care in their mother tongue. As I was saying, the terminology is already very complicated in your own language, so when something is explained to you in another language, you don't understand a thing, and this can lead to very serious problems. I think that we need to work on that.
My last question deals with the "E" grade you received for implementing part VI of the Official Languages Act, which deals with equal access for French-speaking and English-speaking Canadians.
Can you explain to me why you got an "E"? What exactly is the problem?
Thank you for your question,
[English]
and I'm happy to respond.
We've already spoken about the in-person, active offer being not where it needs to be; that's one of the things I think the commissioner noted, and it undoubtedly brought us down.
In the representation area, a particular problem the department has had for some time has been the representation of anglophones in Quebec. We've historically been very low on this point. As a result, the commissioner has noted this over the years.
We have increased our anglophone participation in our Quebec offices, but we are still not where the commissioner feels we should be. We've put in some specific targets for the next year in that regard. And similarly with francophones outside Quebec. We do better with anglophones inside Quebec, but still we are not at the place we need to be, so that is another area where we know we need to improve. There we have a few more tools, and we will be focusing on some targeted recruitment, for example, in francophone universities. There are some ways of using co-op programs and then bridging students of the official language minority into our workforce. So we have some strategies there.
[Translation]
Good morning, everyone.
Ms. Guay asked the question which I was intending to ask. I was also wondering why you got an "E" with regard to equal access for French-speaking and English-speaking Canadians.
When you establish hiring criteria, are there any territorial constraints? For example, in Quebec, only anglophones from Quebec are hired. In Manitoba, are you limited to hiring only francophones from Manitoba? Do anglophone and francophone communities have open access to jobs? If there are not enough resources in one province, is it possible to hire people from elsewhere in Canada?
You cannot specifically recruit people based on language. The law encourages departments to establish equitable participation objectives, but the criteria are different from those used in the area of employment equity. In that case, if there is a gap regarding a target group, people can engage in targeted recruiting. Therefore, our strategy is much more based on encouraging recruitment in francophone areas outside of Quebec, or in anglophone areas inside Quebec. However, we cannot engage in targeted recruiting.
When you are trying to recruit staff, do the notices you put in newspapers say that candidates must be bilingual? As Ms. Guay said, it is already difficult to express oneself in one's second language, but when you are sick, you want to be able to express yourself in your mother tongue. If you want to be understood, you need someone who understands your language.
Nearly 90% of Health Canada's employees meet the language requirements of the position they are in. There are two kinds of positions: unilingual positions and bilingual ones. Regarding the bilingual positions, we are able to recruit. However, people systematically forget to engage in active offer, and they forget to respond with: "Hello, Bonjour.". They have to be reminded. I believe that the deputy minister was absolutely correct when she indicated that employees must continually be reminded that this is the formula they have to use. However, we do respect the language criteria of our positions.
Are some people, some of your employees, still reluctant to speak the other language, be it English or French, that is, the one which is not their first language?
I believe the commissioner's report showed that Quebec anglophones, and francophones living outside Quebec, feel a bit uncomfortable as far as the language at work is concerned. My colleague Ms. MacLeod has gone to great lengths since she became the champion. We have done some good things, but there is still work to do. We need to bring about a change in attitudes, because the linguistic ability is there within the department.
So it really is a matter of changing the culture and educating people. People should not feel forced to speak the other language.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to come back to the issue raised by Mr. Généreux and Ms. Guay, namely French services in the Northwest Territories. You may be aware that we were there last week. We met with organizations, and the organization which provides health care services in French told us of a problem relating to translation. Based on what I understood, the translation of medical terms is not adequate, and as a result, people are not receiving appropriate care. The last thing a person wants is bad medical care or the wrong diagnosis.
Madam Deputy Minister, you said a little earlier that the territories provide health care services independently. There is something I would like to have explained to me. Before the territories got their own Parliament, they were managed by the federal government. That was not such a long time ago.
Now that the situation has changed and that the territories have their own Parliament, what is the responsibility of the federal government? In the health care sector, does the federal government have less responsibility in the area of official languages? Has there been a loss of responsibility? I believe that Health Canada can play a role in this regard. The translators themselves said that they are more comfortable dealing with certain subjects than with others. The health care sector, or the medical sector, as Ms. Guay said, has jargon which is difficult to understand even in one's own language.
Today, there are call centres throughout the world. You call one of these centres and you have no idea where the person who has answered the phone is located. It might be in India or Mexico. Are there not federal programs that could meet the needs of the people living in the Northwest Territories? If the service cannot be provided in the territories, perhaps a person in another province might have the skills to do the work for Health Canada. This is worrying. We have to talk about it, because this is an issue which the Commissioner of Official Languages has not studied. Perhaps we will ask him to do so. Entire communities are not receiving health care services in a language they understand, because of a lack of competent interpreters. I am concerned about this and I believe all committee members were concerned. The Conservative Party, represented by Mr. Généreux, asked the question, as did the Bloc Québécois. And now I am asking this question. We were made aware of the situation by the people who live up there. I would like to know what you think of this matter.
Thank you for your question.
[English]
I think it is precisely this concern about services in your language that has led to the investments and initiatives we've seen—the $200 million and our close working relationship with the minority language communities across the country. We need to understand their priorities. I think we should all be seized of the concern that you raised. When you're sick, when you're at your most vulnerable—that's when having services in your language is probably the most critical.
We have significant responsibilities for first nations people across the country in Health Canada, and we see this same response in trying to support first nations communities. There are some people there for whom English is not their first language, and we try where we can to support them.
Let me come back to your point about minority language communities. It is for that reason that we have made these investments and worked with the communities. For example, we see some provinces and communities who have said they need mental health services, and they want to create that network.
We've supported training so that we would have people who have the curriculum. Sometimes we work with all of the medical schools, some of the nursing schools, and others to create the capacity in their training. People may have francophone abilities, but unless you have the technical knowledge, it may be difficult to practise medicine.
[Translation]
[English]
We will certainly work to support those communities to make sure those health providers are available. That's one of the things we are trying to do, and we're trying to work with the provincial and territorial governments, which have the responsibility for providing services, but also to work with the minority language communities to understand how we can support them. In some cases they have told me that we have given them the ability to come together and make their case to the provincial or territorial delivery agency. So I think we have provided support in a number of ways.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Godin.
Ms. Yeates, if I understood correctly, you held health care consultations in the Northwest Territories, in the Yukon, in the Far North.
I know that we have networks in the North. I will see whether we organized any consultation specifically in the Northwest Territories.
Fine. We would appreciate that, since we are currently drafting the report on our trip to Canada's Far North. If you have any information for us, the committee can then choose to include it in its report.
Thank you for having come before committee members this morning. We will suspend our work for a few moments before beginning the second part of our meeting.
[English]
We'll get started right away, since we have only an hour with our witness.
[Translation]
Without further ado, we will begin with the representatives from the Department of Transport.
This morning, we will hear from Ms. Yaprak Baltacioglu, who is the Deputy Minister; Mr. André Morency, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Corporate Management and Crown Corporation Governance and Corporate Services; Ms. Brigita Gravitis-Beck, who is the Director General for Air Policy, and Mr. Michel Doiron, who is the Regional Director General and Champion of Official Languages for the Atlantic Region.
Welcome to all of you.
Ms. Baltacioglu, you have the floor.
Mr. Chair, I believe that all committee members have received our documents, including our action plan and comments. Since we have little more than an hour, we would be open to beginning with members' questions.
Very well, than that is how we will proceed.
I now give the floor to the official opposition, starting with the committee's vice-chair, Mr. Bélanger.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome to you all.
You say that we received the documents, but I only received them this morning. I am referring to action plan 2010-2011 to 2012-2013 for the implementation of section 41 of the Official Languages Act, your speaking notes, and Transport Canada's official languages action plan 2011-2012. I have not had time to read and get my head around everything. This is a tactic that the department often uses: it tables documents at the last minute so that members are not really able to ask the appropriate questions. Be that as it may, I will ask a first question.
Who sits on the advisory committee that you refer to a number of times in the action plan?
[English]
Our official languages champion chairs the committee, and it has representatives from different branches of our organization. If you want the specific titles, Michel Doiron will explain.
[Translation]
The department has two internal advisory committees: the official languages committee and the advisory committee for part VII of the OAL. Both committees are made up of officials from our branches in Ottawa as well as regional representatives. In fact, our five regions have a number of specific characteristics. We meet regularly to draw up the plan and monitor its implementation.
That was probably some time in October. I can confirm the exact date. It happened just before the plan was approved.
No. Two thousand and eight was when we began working with members of the official languages committee to develop a plan for part VII. Once the plan was established, we struck a new committee to better focus on part VII.
Part VII of the act was amended in 2005 by the Parliament of Canada. Why did you wait until 2010 to create an advisory committee?
In 2008, we hired an independent consultant, Mr. Brisson. The objective was to consult official language minority communities and departments in order to better understand our obligations under part VII. Transport Canada's component is one of safety and security. We do not have social, cultural or human resources development components. We knew that we had a duty—all departments do—but we did not know what that duty was exactly. Things were not really very clear.
Why did you wait until 2008 to ensure proper implementation of an act that was amended by the Parliament of Canada in 2005?
[English]
I think that's particularly the reason why our grade is not as high as it could be. We were slow in developing our action plan, and it did come in after the commissioner's cut-off date. I cannot really explain to you why it has taken so many years. What I can assure you is that we have a plan. We have the full commitment of myself and my management committee. As Monsieur Doiron has said, part of the issue was that we are not one of the designated departments that have to report to Canadian Heritage.
But as well I think the department wasn't sure how the development of official language minority communities worked within Transport Canada's regulatory mandate. So I think it took a little while for the department to get its head around it. I can tell you that we now have an action plan, and we're hoping that for the next report card period we will actually improve our standing on this one. This is an area we're very focused on. But you're right, we could have done it better; we could have done it faster.
The broad outline of that plan is basically a number of things. First of all, the most important thing in Transport Canada is to make sure that the policies we put into place take into consideration the impact on official language minority communities. Number two, when we're running programs, we have to always think about what the impact is on the official language minority communities. For example, if a seafarer is applying for a certain kind of certificate from the department, if it's in an area of official language minority communities, how would it work?
Other issues are our grants and contributions. We have created a centre of excellence for the department, and part of the centre of excellence is to really look at two parts of the Official Languages Act. One of them is service to the public, but the second part is the support to the official language minority communities. So those would be the broad way of looking at it.
The last piece is that when other departments like Heritage are doing consultations on the ground with the official language minority communities, we will be there as appropriate, if we can add something to it or we can get back something back from it so that we can improve our services. My colleague has actually recently participated in one.
[Translation]
Good morning to you all.
Our study today is on volume 2 of the Commissioner of Official Languages annual report as it relates to your department. I do note that you have received some very good ratings. However, there is the issue of part VII, which my colleague Mr. Bélanger has just raised. You will have to roll up your sleeves and do some very important work in that regard.
We are talking about official language minority communities as they concern your department. In that regard, I have a particular interest in Canada Post. Closing a post office often means shutting down a village or hamlet where people live. In order to avoid the disappearance of the rural world, key links have to be maintained. We are talking about transportation, but there is more than that. Your department covers many sectors.
With regard to your workplace and more particularly your employees, I see that you obtained a good rating in terms of language of work. The commissioner gave you a "B". For the benefit of the other departments that received shabby ratings in that area—for example, in the case of Health Canada, which was raised earlier—I would like you to tell us about the measures you implemented. How do you ensure that the employees throughout your department feel free to use their official language of choice at work—and in this case, I am referring to French because it is the minority language throughout Canada, even though it is the majority language in Quebec—to speak, and especially to communicate in writing?
On page 27 of the commissioner's report, I note that you were unable to put your employees at ease with regard to job security, and that they have to report to managers who neither understand nor read French; they cannot be sure that writing to their superiors in French will not be frowned upon; and they receive translated documents dealing with substantive matters, but that do not express what was stated in French because of a loss of nuances and subtleties in the process.
What will you do to improve that situation? What are you doing so that your employees feel free to speak, work and write in French within the very large department that is Transport Canada? What are you doing for those communities and groups?
[English]
Thank you.
Before I answer the second part of your question, while I am the Deputy Minister of Transport, I am also the deputy head of the portfolio. However, I don't manage the day-to-day operations of any of our portfolio partners, like Canada Post. But we do always, as part of our portfolio coordination function, encourage our portfolio partners to abide by all the laws they have to abide by, and Canada Post is under the Official Languages Act.
Regarding the language of work, you are right, we have a good mark. But just as it is for our colleagues from Health Canada, this is an issue of culture. This is an issue of constant effort to make sure that our staff feel comfortable speaking in the language they wish to speak to produce the work they have to do.
There is something we have done systematically in Transport Canada. If you look at our total number of supervisory positions in bilingual regions, out of 730 positions, 654 are bilingual. As well, in the executive cadre in Transport Canada, we have made a specific decision in the department to staff people who are bilingual into these positions. Some staff don't meet the bilingual requirements, but they represent a very small percentage. For example, in terms of our EXs, our executives—
[Translation]
I do not want to be impolite, but I have very little time remaining. With regard to the drafting of documents, are people encouraged concretely and clearly to draft their documents in French? Are they told that their superiors will be pleased to receive them?
My riding is one of, if not the riding with the largest number of federal public servants. In the greater urban area of Gatineau and Ottawa, that is a fact of life. People who are very active defenders and supporters of their language no longer write in French because they are frowned upon for doing so. Writing in French delays the process, and they are being blamed for work delays. These are things that I am being told. I need not go further into that, but I wanted you to know.
How can you make them feel confident? That is basically what I want to know. I have seen the numbers, but I wanted to make sure that those people did not feel they were being punished at work for using French in the federal public service, and particularly in your department.
[English]
First of all, I hope that nobody will think they will be punished if they use the language of their choice in terms of their writing.
There are a number of things that we do. Our official languages website is always updated. We have language tips on our website, and we always put some there every couple of weeks. These are all small things, but nevertheless the message from the senior management is to utilize the language you're most comfortable writing in.
Is there anything else you would like to add, André?
[Translation]
Mr. Nadeau, I would like to mention that the official languages champion recently published a message on our website for all department employees. He encouraged them to do just that, i.e., to communicate in the language of their choice. He indicated that senior management would be fully responsive and happy to receive documents in either English or French. We are continuing to communicate with our employees to encourage them to do so. We have also asked our managers to encourage them as well. These are messages that we will be pleased to keep on sending them.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to welcome you to the committee.
As my time is limited, I will cut right to the chase. Madam Deputy Minister, are you bilingual?
Yes. My mother tongue is Turkish, my second language is English and my third language is French. I was rated level C a few years ago. I am bilingual, but not perfectly, and I do speak three languages. I came to Canada when I was 21. As an immigrant woman, I believe that I am quite proficient in those three languages, even though I am not exceptionally fluent.
You are in the same situation as I am, because I speak English, French and Acadian. I would like to welcome you into the group of people who speak three languages.
I had to ask the question because I have not had the opportunity so far this morning to check whether you were bilingual or not. Would Mr. Morency feel free to speak to you in French and use his mother tongue? Would Mr. Doiron feel free to do so as well?
Do you have interpreters? I wanted to reiterate that, if people are made to wait—and this is something that occurs at times—they will switch to the language of the person with which they are speaking. I wanted to know whether you, as deputy minister, were bilingual. I thank you for your answer.
I would now like to talk about Air Canada, which falls under the purview of Transport Canada. Earlier, you spoke rather briefly about Canada Post, but I think that you will have a harder time with Air Canada. Transport Canada is the responsible department. In your presentation, you also said that you were responsible for security. Transport Canada has many programs that deal with security.
Since 2006, we have been calling on Parliament and the government to pass new legislation for Air Canada. The only response we have received is that the department is working on a bill. You are the deputy minister. Why is it so difficult to draft a few words stating that Air Canada must comply with the Official Languages Act?
Air Canada is not just another private company. When the government wanted to privatize Air Canada, the corporation's owners knew full well that they were not complying with the Official Languages Act. What is more, given all the corporate identity changes, we never know what to call it.
We called on the department and the minister to draft legislation. What is the status of the bill to ensure compliance of official languages by Air Canada, which is squarely under your responsibility?
[English]
The Official Languages Act applies to Air Canada. It has been under the Official Languages Act since 1969.
When the privatization happened, the Air Canada Public Participation Act also said that Air Canada has to comply with official languages.
I think the issue the commissioner raises is not Air Canada itself alone. That doesn't mean that their level of service is perfect, but in terms of application of the law, there is no issue. In the commissioner's report he definitely points to the issue with Air Canada Jazz, which is covered through a contractual agreement between Air Canada and Jazz. Now, in the Official Languages Act, I believe section 25 says that if someone is doing contract work for you, you have to be able to adhere to the language act.
Our former minister, Mr. Baird, appeared in front of this committee and he committed that a bill will be tabled in the House of Commons--
Sir, I cannot commit to you which day the bill would be tabled because that is not something that is under my control. It is done by the minister and--
But the minister doesn't write bills. Your people write the bills. Your department writes the bill. You help him to write the bill.
Where is the bill?
You are very clearly saying when the government feels ready to table it. You'd be able to produce a bill if they want one, right?
Thank you. I really appreciate that answer.
[Translation]
How can you explain that the Department of Transport did not account for official languages in the latest public accounts? There is absolutely no mention of official languages, in terms of costs, etc. Some departments have produced such reports in the public accounts, but Transport Canada is not one of them.
I believe we do not have to report on that, but if the committee has questions concerning our expenditures, we could provide you with any information that you request.
Would you be able to include that in the public accounts? You do have duties with regard to the official languages. You might not be required to produce reports, but would it not be appropriate to do so, given that the current government is preaching transparency?
[English]
Yes, there are a number of committees that discuss official languages. The Public Service Commission advisory committee is a deputy ministers' committee advising the Public Service Commission, and official languages get discussed there. As well, the Secretary to the Treasury Board chairs a committee, the public service management advisory committee, again with a large number of deputies. They do discuss official languages.
Recently, in the fall, maybe in November, the commissioner came and spoke to all deputy ministers at a meeting the Clerk of the Privy Council chairs. We call it the DMs' breakfast. It is on Wednesday mornings. He came to speak to us.
As well, a couple of weeks ago--I don't know the exact date--the commissioner came and spoke to deputies specifically around his report and how can we make it better, etc. So it does get discussed.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today.
You have presented two action plans on official languages in regard to the findings of the Commissioner of Official Languages. Part of the larger document speaks to the action plan 2010-2011 to 2012-2013. Another smaller document contains the action plan 2011-2012. Those plans were no doubt drafted based on a number of findings, including strong points and weaknesses.
Could you first talk about those findings and then address the procedure you have taken to implement those action plans? As well, do you intend to take action in order to improve the weaknesses?
[English]
In terms of our department, our program management is.... We got an A, and we believe that we're doing quite well, as part of our action plan. With regard to communications and service to the public, we went up one grade. That doesn't mean, by all means, that we're perfect, but we're continuously working on it. We still have to remind our employees about the active offer of providing service to them, either on the phone or in person. That's an area we note that we need to do better.
With regard to language of work, we just discussed the whole thing. You have to constantly stress the language of work and to make sure that our employees are comfortable.
We have an issue on equitable participation. We dropped from an A to a C because in our Quebec region there was a reorganization before I took over as deputy. Out of the 50 anglophone staff we had in Quebec, quite a number of them moved to Ottawa. So our English participation in the Quebec region fell below the 13.4%. We were at 8.1%, and the commissioner was not particularly happy with that, which is why our grade went down. We're really trying very hard to increase our staffing levels in terms of anglophones in Quebec. Today I think we're at 10.6%, so that's an area that needs a lot of attention.
The other report that we gave you is on part seven of the act. That's an area, as was asked earlier, we really have to focus on very hard in terms of making sure that our policies and programs contribute to the development of official-language minority communities.
[Translation]
You talked about anglophone employees in the Quebec region. I believe that the percentage of those employees in the Quebec region went from 13% to 8%. I think that 98% or 99% of people in Quebec City are francophones. Do you really need to follow the commissioner's recommendation and maintain a rate of 13%?
There are more anglophones in Montreal. It is probably more important to have bilingual employees in Montreal. That is also true for Quebec City, but the need there is not as great.
In that regard, can you explain your relationship with the commissioner?
[English]
The number is for the overall Quebec region. Our overall numbers are low. Our main effort is in Montreal right now. Our main office is in Dorval because of the airport and civil aviation is in the area. We are basically making a huge outreach to schools where anglophone students attend. We're talking to the communities to see how we can encourage people to apply for positions.
Yes, we would like to be able to adhere to the commissioner's recommendation. We are not trying to do every office at a certain level, but in the Quebec region we would like to get to the 13%. Right now we're at 10%, so it shouldn't be, hopefully, that difficult.
[Translation]
Is it easier to achieve that rate in Quebec than it is in other provinces? You have not met that rate in other provinces as well. Tell me about the rates in other provinces.
[English]
In the national capital region we have 37% francophones, and the required number or the cutoff number is actually 34%. So we're doing well in Transport Canada. Outside the national capital region and Quebec, the cutoff point is 4.2%. We're at 5.5%. We don't have a representational issue per se for recruitment. We have no problem finding employees, anglophones or francophones, except in Quebec, where we don't have enough anglophones because of the reorganization, which we will fix.
If you want more numbers as to how it is divided, I don't have them. These are all the numbers I have. But we'll get them to you.
[Translation]
When you talk about the rates of anglophones and francophones, are you referring to employees who are anglophone and bilingual or exclusively anglophone?
[English]
[Translation]
Before I give the floor to my colleague, I would like to ask you the following.
[English]
Deputy Minister, I want to make sure I understood your answer to Mr. Godin. Are you telling us that whatever work the department needed to do to enable the government to table legislation in the House vis-à-vis Air Canada has been done?
What I said is both ministers--the previous minister and our current minister--have repeated their commitment to introducing a bill in the House of Commons that deals with the Air Canada Jazz issue. We appropriately support our minister on that issue.
Mr. Chairman, I think by now committee members appreciate that I can tell you where some things are at. I'm just stressing the fact that where the minister said that, we will do the work for it and we've done the work for it.
Fine. We are interpreting that as whatever needed to be done to enable the minister or whomever to table legislation, that work has been done.
We have done appropriate work, as the minister has asked.
I'm not at liberty to tell you exactly where proposals are. It's up to the government to decide when they're going to act.
I'm not asking to know where proposals are. I'm asking if whatever work the department needed to do to enable its minister to table legislation is complete.
We do appropriate work, as the minister has asked. The minister will decide what to do with the work that has been done to date. I am not at liberty to tell you exactly where each piece of legislation or proposal is.
That's not what I'm asking, Madame. In fairness, you're dealing with Parliament here. You had a unanimous vote in the House of Commons--
[Translation]
[English]
With all due respect to my colleague, I think the questioning is somewhat unfair. I don't think the deputy minister should be answering for the government--
You've asked the same question four or five different ways. I think in fairness to our witness, out of respect, if that question has to be answered, it should be asked of the minister. I'd like you to rule on that.
[Translation]
I do not have the rules and procedures in front of me, but I will however allow Mr. Lauzon's point of order.
It is important to remind members that they are free to ask questions, but they must make a distinction between the work of our public servants and that of politicians.
That said, Mr. Bélanger, we will restart the clock.
Mr. Godin, do you also wish to make a point of order?
Mr. Chair, Mr. Bélanger's question is not intended for the minister, but rather for the deputy minister. Therefore, if I understood the question correctly, the point of order cannot be allowed to stand. The question is to find out whether the witness is able to deliver the bill on time, at the request of the minister. That is something only the deputy minister can answer. The minister cannot.
The deputy minister should be able to say whether she can meet the minister's requirements, once he decides to table a bill in the House of Commons. I gather that she answered in the affirmative.
[English]
[Translation]
I apologize, deputy minister, but I must rule on the point of order.
Mr. Godin, you have indeed clarified what I just said. We agree that we can ask questions of our public officials, but some questions must be addressed to a minister. It is in keeping with that spirit that I invite Mr. Bélanger to continue his questioning.
Do you have any other comments you would like to make, Mr. Godin?
Mr. Lauzon's point of order concerned the minister, but Mr. Bélanger's questions were not intended for the minister. He wanted to know whether the witness was able to deliver the bill on time.
Without referring to the specific section in our rules and procedures, I would say that we are free to ask questions of our witnesses, as they are free to provide us with the answers they so wish.
Rightly so, and if you are done with your procedural question, Mr. Godin, Mr. Bélanger will be able to pursue his line of questioning.
I will restart the clock.
Mr. Bélanger, you have the floor.
[English]
I thought maybe I was wrong, but Monsieur Godin and Monsieur Bélanger asked two different things.
Monsieur Godin wanted to know whether we would be ready to deliver a bill on time if asked to do so by the minister. We said yes.
Mr. Bélanger, you asked us for the status. I can't answer that.
My question was, has the department done whatever work it needs to do to enable its minister to table legislation or give notice of legislation?
We have done the work. We have done work our minister has asked for. Whether that's everything that's needed to introduce the legislation, the government will have to decide. There might be more work needed.
I understand the relationship.
Are you at liberty to tell us when that was completed, whatever work the department needed to do?
Not only am I not at liberty to tell you, I'm not sure if I know when the government wishes to proceed. It's a House plan. When they want to introduce a bill, I'm not sure.
I understand all that, and I understand that you may have to bounce it off the justice department and that cabinet has to decide when it's going to table. It sets the agenda. I have no problem with that.
My question refers to whatever work the Department of Transport needs to do to enable the minister to move. You've now confirmed that the work has been completed. Are you at liberty to tell us when that work was completed?
I said we completed the work that the minister asked us to do on this bill. Should there be any additional work that the minister wishes to do, we shall do that as well.
But as to when the department has completed what it needs to do, are you at liberty to tell us that?
I find that almost contemptuous. The Commissioner of Official Languages is saying that as a department you should participate in an intention to change the Air Canada Public Participation Act. You said you'd done it, and now you won't tell us when you did it so that we can put pressure on the minister to do what the Commissioner of Official Languages said.
Could you please give us a date as to when you did that work and sent it to the minister?
With all due respect, there's no intention of being contemptuous. We work for and give our advice to our minister. The government makes decisions and—
I am not at liberty to talk about when our work is done on all these things. I'm really not trying to be disrespectful, but I'm in a difficult situation when you to ask me which stage of....
[Translation]
Thank you, Deputy Minister.
With regard to the procedural issue that was raised, I would like to thank the clerk for having drawn my attention to the section dealing with the questioning of witnesses, as found on page 1068 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice (O'Brien and Bosc), which states:
Particular attention is paid to the questioning of public servants. The obligation of a witness to answer all questions put by the committee must be balanced against the role that public servants play in providing confidential advice to their ministers. The rule of the public servant has traditionally been viewed in relation to the implementation and administration of government policy, rather than the determination of what that policy should be. Consequently, public servants have been excused from commenting on the policy decisions made by the government.
I would invite committee members to read the following paragraphs, which justify the decision I took earlier.
On that note, I would ask Ms. Guay to pursue the discussion.
Oh! Things are certainly heating up.
I have a question for you in that regard. Essentially, you are telling us that, once you have completed work on the bill that was requested of you, it is the minister who decides when to table it in the House. Is that correct? That is all I want to know. If you are saying that the work has been done, that means that things are in the minister's hands, and he will decide when the bill will be tabled in the House. It is not up to you to decide, but rather up to him.
[English]
The government decides. It's not only one minister; cabinet makes decisions.
Let me just be very clear. When I said the work is done, we do the work that was asked from us. There may be more work needed. I'm not giving any status of where this is.
[Translation]
I do not wish to obtain that information, Madam. I have gotten the answer I wanted. It is not my intent to get you into trouble, that's not the issue.
Moving on to another matter, I would like to know what Transport Canada's budget is to implement the Official Languages Act, and how many years does it cover? We do not have those amounts.
We can provide you with figures on our expenditures for official language training, the courses provided within the department. However, as for the way that we work within the department, we do not keep—
That is not what I am talking about. The government provides you with a certain amount of money, or you submit a request to the government in order to obtain money for official language programs. We have seen this in all of the departments. We have obtained the figures, they provided them to us.
Would it be possible to find out how much money the Department of Transport received in order to administer the Official Languages Act, and for how many years? This is a very simple question. All of the departments have these figures.
That depends on you. Some departments have received $130 million for a certain number of years, others received $300 million for another number of years. I do not know what you received, but you do. So it depends on how you work with the government. Give us as much information as possible.
We would like to know the amounts transferred to you in order to be able to provide the official languages programs.
There are not specific amounts for that, but the departments do receive money to ensure that they can satisfy—
This information is important to us, we need to have it in order to be able to continue our study.
You did not obtain a horrendous score. We have seen departments where things were not going at all well. The big problem in Transport Canada is indeed Air Canada. This problem has been going on for years and years. Our committee would like to see this issue resolved some day. It is true that when you take a plane, even here in Ottawa, you cannot receive service in French. This is unacceptable, we are in a national capital. Things have to change. That is why this legislation is important and why my colleagues talk about it so much. Moreover, this is part of our responsibilities. We do realize that you do not make decisions alone, we are fully cognizant of that. We hope that this issue will be resolved quickly and that my colleague will be able to obtain orange juice in French. This has not just happened once; he has raised this issue several times. The number of complaints is growing. This is becoming quite controversial amongst consumers who fly. I would therefore like to know what these budgets are.
Moreover, you received an "A" for the promotion and support of official language committees and the management of official languages. I would like you to provide us with more details. What did you do in order to achieve this mark? This could be used as an example for others who have not even managed to score an "E" or a "D".
We could give you an overview of everything that the department has. The deputy minister already said that the department has an employee site. This site contains the tools explaining how to serve the public in both official languages, how to manage the—
Yes, I find that this has become quite an interesting site, because employees can go to it in order to get the tools.
They are clearly using it. Indeed, we could continue having these discussions and they could talk to us about the tools that we provide to them.
I think that we can provide you with a number of hits on the site. That would probably be easy to do.
—for a committee chair who wants to hold a bilingual meeting, for example.
We have all kinds of tools, including one to translate words.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will be sharing my time with Mr. Généreux.
At the outset, I would like to congratulate the team on the good work it has already done. Your scores are pretty good, but as you mentioned, there are some aspects that need to be improved.
[English]
I have a point of clarification over this conversation we had.
First of all, I think you're working hard at improving the service in both official languages, and I commend you for that. I think you've made a lot of progress. As you mentioned, you have some areas to work on, but obviously you're working on them.
But on this business about this bill, if I understand it right, if the minister asks the department to draft a bill, there's some back-and-forth, etc. As clarification, I think what you were trying to infer to the committee is that you've worked with the minister—or a couple of ministers, I guess, in this case—and you're in the process of drafting a piece of legislation that will eventually come before Parliament.
Am I understanding that properly? It's not for you to decide whether the bill is perfect or it's in the form the minister wants. You work with the minister back and forth, and you'll come to a point where it's in a state where the minister wants to present it to Parliament.
Do I understand the process properly?
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I will ask you my first question. Several departmental representatives that we have met over the past few months have talked about the culture of the organization.
A little earlier, the Department of Health talked about the culture within its department. Ideally, French should have equal status with English, so that people do not feel inferior if they use French.
How would you describe this culture in your department, when it comes to the equality of the two languages?
I will provide with a partial answer and ask our official languages champion to complete it.
In my opinion, it is by leading by example that we make employees feel comfortable speaking their language. At our management committee, which is chaired by the deputy minister, meetings are completely bilingual, with every group and every region. All of the management teams make an effort to ensure that meetings are bilingual.
When we meet with our employees one-to-one, we always encourage them to speak the official language of their choice. With respect to our communication tools, it is clear that we will always try to communicate in both official languages. When we fill positions, we will ensure that the linguistic profile is clearly defined bearing in mind the type of work that is to be done.
I think that we are taking many measures, but it is by leading by example that the department will show its employees that they should be comfortable communicating in the language of their choice.
Progress in the use of official languages flows from leadership. I am a francophone. I am an Acadian. We have a culture...
Be careful what you say...
Mr. Michel Doiron: ... and three languages.
Mr. Bernard Généreux: ... that could be held against you.
All right. We have three languages.
Official languages is about leadership and respect. At Transport Canada, this involves leadership from management, but not only at the top level, it involves all managers. It also involves respect.
I am pleased with your answers. I understand them very well.
I do not want to be mean-spirited, but the documents that you submitted this morning... Mr. Bélanger said it earlier: the legislation was amended in 2005. This is now the year 2011. Six years later.
Mr. Morency, you have been in the department for a long time. Now—and I am using the word “now” because that is what I understood you two have said—you want to assume this leadership role, within the department, to ensure that French or bilingual services are offered right across Canada.
Is this type of leadership new or was it already a part of your department?
It has existed for a long time, because before the arrival of the current deputy minister, a few years ago, our deputy minister was a francophone.
Mr. Chair, I know that everybody asks the same question about Air Canada. I want to go back to this issue to ensure that I understood correctly. From your statement, Madam Deputy Minister, I understood that if the minister were to ask you to do something, you would do it and do it by the deadline.
Thank you. I now have a question for Mr. Doiron, the official languages champion who hails from the Atlantic region. Since Air Canada is under the purview of your department, and since you are the official languages champion, would Air Canada also come under your responsibility?
No, because I am the official languages champion at Transport Canada but not the champion for organizations or crown corporations that come under the department's responsibility.
Air Canada appears before the Standing Committee on Official Languages on a regular basis and we receive complaints about it on a regular basis. We have also tabled four bills with respect to Air Canada.
Is your department following up on the Air Canada file?
[English]
Of course we followed the Air Canada file.
Now, there are a number of issues. If there are complaints around Air Canada, the commissioner does follow-up. For example, this year he is going in for an audit of the Air Canada operations.
We are responsible for policy options that will be presented to a minister around transportation issues, including the Air Canada official languages file.
Okay, it's your responsibility. This is the problem I have with that. The commissioner goes there, and he makes a report. We all know that Air Canada broke the law with regard to the 60%, which they don't respect, and all of that. You ask for an orange juice, and they don't know it's un jus d'orange and all of that.
You go to Ottawa, which is one of the worst ones, and you get service in one language. Who does the follow-up?
Air Canada's activities regarding the complaints are managed by the official languages commissioner. As well, the overall Official Languages Act falls under the Treasury Board Secretariat.
Yes, but there is no penalty. Is that why it just stays where it is?
We have the law. They break the law. The commissioner can only report to Parliament. But does your department, as the Department of Transport, have any power to go to Air Canada and say, hey, look, you're breaking one of our laws?
Under the Aeronautics Act, with regard to safety and security, we have to make sure any announcements for airlines and any signage in airports are in both official languages, because it's a question of safety. But we're not the ones who would apply penalties or anything regarding Air Canada's official language--
[Translation]
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