PACC Committee Meeting
Notices of Meeting include information about the subject matter to be examined by the committee and date, time and place of the meeting, as well as a list of any witnesses scheduled to appear. The Evidence is the edited and revised transcript of what is said before a committee. The Minutes of Proceedings are the official record of the business conducted by the committee at a sitting.
For an advanced search, use Publication Search tool.
If you have any questions or comments regarding the accessibility of this publication, please contact us at accessible@parl.gc.ca.
37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION
Standing Committee on Public Accounts
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Tuesday, February 10, 2004
| º | 1605 |
 |
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc (Committee Clerk, Committees Directorate, House of Commons) |
|
Hon. Joe Jordan (Leeds—Grenville, Lib.) |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
Hon. Joe Jordan |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
Mr. Alan Tonks (York South—Weston, Lib.) |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
Mr. Alan Tonks |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC) |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
Mr. Greg Thompson |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc |
|
The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, CPC)) |
|
Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.) |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.) |
|
The Chair |
|
Hon. Joe Jordan |
|
The Chair |
|
Hon. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.) |
|
The Chair |
| º | 1610 |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
The Chair |
|
Ms. Beth Phinney |
|
The Chair |
|
Hon. Shawn Murphy (Hillsborough, Lib.) |
|
The Chair |
|
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ) |
|
The Chair |
|
Hon. Walt Lastewka |
|
The Chair |
|
Ms. Beth Phinney |
|
The Chair |
|
Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
| º | 1615 |
|
The Chair |
|
Ms. Beth Phinney |
|
The Chair |
|
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot) |
|
The Chair |
|
Mr. John Bryden |
|
The Chair |
|
Mr. Odina Desrochers |
|
The Chair |
|
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, CPC) |
|
The Chair |
|
Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
|
The Chair |
CANADA
Standing Committee on Public Accounts |
|
l |
|
l |
|
EVIDENCE
Tuesday, February 10, 2004
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
º 
(1605)
[English]
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc (Committee Clerk, Committees Directorate, House of Commons): Order. Honourable members of the committee, I see a quorum.
[Translation]
We can now proceed to elect the Chair.
[English]
I am prepared to receive motions to that effect.
Hon. Joe Jordan (Leeds—Grenville, Lib.): I nominate John Williams.
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, the nominations are now closed.
The motion is that John Williams be elected chair of the committee. Is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: I declare Mr. Williams elected as chair.
We will now proceed to the election of the vice-chairs. We have two vice-chairs for the government side.
I will take nominations for the first government vice-chair.
Hon. Joe Jordan: I nominate Beth Phinney.
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: Mr. Tonks.
Mr. Alan Tonks (York South—Weston, Lib.): Are there two nominations for our side?
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: There are two vice-chairs, but we can do them one after the other. If I get two nominations for the same position of vice-chair, then we have to have a secret ballot on the first and then have another election afterwards.
Are there any other nominations for the first vice-chair position? Seeing none, is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: I declare Ms. Phinney elected as vice-chair.
I will now receive nominations for the second vice-chair.
Monsieur Tonks.
Mr. Alan Tonks: I nominate Marlene Jennings.
[Translation]
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: Mr. Tonks nominates Ms. Jennings. Are there other nominations?
[English]
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): I nominate Mr. Bryden.
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: Mr. Bryden is actually not a member of the committee, so I cannot receive that motion.
Mr. Greg Thompson: Can we vote to make him a member of the committee?
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: I'm afraid only the House can make him a member of the committee.
Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, the nominations are closed.
[Translation]
Is it agreed?
(Motion agreed to)
[English]
Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: I declare Ms. Jennings elected as vice-chair, and invite Mr. Williams to assume the chair.
The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, CPC)): Thank you very much, everybody, for your vote of confidence.
We will proceed now to routine motions, which have been distributed, I believe.
We'll start with motion one, which deals with the subcommittee on agenda and procedure--the steering committee: that the chair, the two vice-chairs, an additional Liberal member, and a representative of each of the Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party do compose the subcommittee on agenda and procedure.
Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.): I so move.
The Chair: That is seconded by Mr. Jordan.
Is there discussion or debate?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: The second motion concerns the services of analysts from the Library of Parliament: that the committee retain the services of one or more analysts from the Library of Parliament, as needed, to assist the committee in its work, at the discretion of the chair.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: The third motion, to receive and publish evidence in the absence of quorum, is that the chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive and publish evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that at least five members are present, including three government members and two members of the opposition, and that in the absence of a reduced quorum of five members, the chair be authorized to call the meeting to order to hear evidence no sooner than 15 minutes after the time indicated on the notice, provided that three members are present, including one member of the opposition and a member of the government.
Hon. Joe Jordan: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Mr. Lastewka.
Hon. Walt Lastewka (St. Catharines, Lib.): I will try to get my hand up for debate.
The Chair: Okay.
Number four is time limits for witnesses' statements and questions. It is moved by Mr. Desrochers that the witnesses be given five minutes to give their opening statement, and if they have additional information it should be deposited with the clerk of the committee; and that during the questioning of witnesses there be allocated eight minutes for the first questioner of each party and thereafter four minutes be allocated to each subsequent questioner at the discretion of the chair.
Is there any debate?
(Motion agreed to)
º (1610)
The Chair: Number five is payment of witnesses' travel and living expenses. It is moved by Ms. Jennings that, if requested, reasonable travel, accommodation, and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses, not exceeding two representatives per organization.
Is there discussion?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Distribution of documents. It is moved by Ms. Jennings and Monsieur Gaudet that the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute documents to the members of the committee only when they exist in both official languages.
Is there debate?
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Number seven, working meals, is that the clerk of the committee be authorized to make the necessary arrangements to provide for working meals of the committee and its subcommittees as necessary.
An hon. member: And more orange juice.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
The Chair: It is moved by Mr. Tonks.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Substantive motions. It is moved that 48 hours be given to the chair or the clerk before any substantive motion is considered by the committee.
Madam Jennings.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: Just one question. Is it that 48 hours' written notice be given? It's not a telephone...?
The Chair: Yes, 48 hours' written notice.
It is moved by Mr. Tonks.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: There are a couple of other possible motions. According to the clerk we haven't adopted these motions, but they have been adopted by other committees. We have been very careful about doing in camera meetings because we are, as Mr. Bryden pointed out one time, a committee of record. Therefore, perhaps we'll leave these off. If we decide to go in camera, we may wish to discuss them. Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: The other item of business--and again I'm going to ask for the committee's direction on this, because there is some urgency, which is why we're meeting this afternoon. The Prime Minister has asked that this committee get going at the earliest opportunity. I would seek a motion that the Auditor General be requested to appear before the committee on Thursday morning to present her report.
It is moved by Ms. Phinney.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: Is there any further business to come before the meeting?
An hon. member: [Inaudible—Editor]
The Chair: The clerk will send out a notice, but I think our regular scheduled meeting times are Tuesday morning and Thursday morning at eleven o'clock.
Ms. Beth Phinney: Ask if we can get nine o'clock this week anyway.
The Chair: Maybe nine o'clock or eleven o'clock.
Mr. Murphy.
Hon. Shawn Murphy (Hillsborough, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, I assume you'll be calling a meeting of the steering committee to line up the witnesses and move fairly expeditiously.
The Chair: Yes. What I think I would like to do is keep the Auditor General's report to maybe an hour and a half and then just have the full committee deal with the calling of the witnesses, because it will have to come back to the committee.
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): If the meeting is scheduled for 11 o'clock,
[English]
could you prepare a steering committee for 10 o'clock?
The Chair: I don't think we should have a steering committee before the Auditor General presents her report. I think it's appropriate that we hear the report first and then the committee will decide what it's going to do with the report. That's the normal process. I don't think it's appropriate to meet beforehand.
Mr. Lastewka.
Hon. Walt Lastewka: Am I to interpret that you were going to have an hour and a half with the Auditor General, or are you going to give us the full time to be able to have a discussion with the Auditor General? I don't think we should be rushing it. I think we should hear the Auditor General, which would make it easier for us to understand which witnesses to call thereafter.
The Chair: Her normal report to the committee is the same as the report she presented to parliamentarians this morning in the in camera meeting. It only lasts about 20 minutes, which would allow an hour or more for questions. If it's the committee's wish to go the full two hours, then I would call a steering committee meeting immediately thereafter. So if it went from 9 to 11, I would have a steering committee from, say, 11 to 11:30. It's entirely up to the committee.
Ms. Beth Phinney: I think we should go the full time.
The Chair: Okay, we'll go the full two hours. So you can expect a steering committee meeting.... I think we would actually prefer the whole committee. Do you want a steering committee meeting first? The rule is that if there is consensus, the steering committee makes a decision. If there's no consensus, then it has to come back to the full committee for a vote.
Ms. Jennings.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: I think it has worked well during the years that I have sat on the public accounts committee, so I would recommend that we stay with that, the steering committee.
º (1615)
The Chair: Okay, a steering committee meeting it is, at 11 o'clock. Therefore, we'll expect the Bloc Québécois and the NDP to put forth a member for the committee.
Ms. Phinney.
Ms. Beth Phinney: You know about three of the people on the steering committee, but what about the two or three others?
The Chair: There's an additional Liberal member, and I leave it to the Liberal members to decide who that is, and a representative of the Bloc and the NDP. We'll leave it to the individual parties to suggest which of the members of the committee will sit on the steering committee.
Mr. Bryden.
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot): Mr. Chairman, could I just open some discussion on the order of questioning? This is one of the things that has bothered me in the past about this committee. You may want to continue with it. I don't know. The routine was that each opposition party had a question and then a government member and then it came back to this routine, with the consequence that government members were often left well down on the roster when it came to questioning. Now that there has been a change in the composition of the opposition parties, is this a procedure we want to carry on with, or would the members entertain the idea that we go opposition, government, opposition, government?
The Chair: We just passed a motion, Mr. Bryden, that there be an allocation of eight minutes for the first question of each party and thereafter four minutes allocated to each subsequent questioner at the discretion of the chair. That means it starts off with the Conservative Party of Canada, followed by the Bloc Québécois. I've always gone to the Liberal Party for number three and then to the New Democratic Party, if they're here, for number four. That's the first round. After that, I have ensured that every member of the committee gets to speak. Therefore, sometimes I've gone back to the Conservative Party, and then I've taken two Liberals, one followed by another. I've never stuck to the formal rule and denied people their chance to speak.
Mr. John Bryden: I'm happy with that.
The Chair: Mr. Desrochers.
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mr. Chairman, could we take steps to have Thursday's meeting televised?
[English]
The Chair: We will endeavour to have as many meetings as possible televised. Of course, the new rule is that if the media requests that it be televised, television arrangements will be made. We are the only committee meeting at this point in time. Because of the new rule, if the media asks, it shall be done. We can set up these rooms for television. The rule is that the meeting has to be recorded from start to finish. I'm not totally up to speed on the specificity of all the technicalities of the rule, but they can all be televised if requested.
Is there any further discussion?
Mr. McNally.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, CPC): Rather than waiting for the media to request that this be televised, can we not make that decision ourselves?
The Chair: We have this scarcity of television capacity. But we can try to get first dibs on the televised rooms. It's not hard to get the media to want this to be televised.
Is there any further discussion?
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: No. I move that the meeting be adjourned.
The Chair: This meeting is adjourned. The next meeting will be on Thursday.