TRAN Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Transport

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, November 7, 2002

Á

1100

The Clerk of the Committee

Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.)

The Clerk

Mr. Mark Eyking (Sydney—Victoria, Lib.)

Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Canadian Alliance)

The Clerk

Mr. Jim Gouk

The Clerk

The Clerk

Mr. Jim Gouk

The Clerk

Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ)

Á

1105

The Clerk

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Clerk

Á

1110

The Chair (Mr. Joe Comuzzi (Thunder Bay—Superior North, Lib.))

Mr. Jim Gouk

The Chair

Mr. Jim Gouk

The Chair

Mr. John Christopher (Research Officer, Library of Parliament)

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Rex Barnes (Gander—Grand Falls, PC)

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP)

Mr. Rex Barnes

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Á

1115

Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.)

Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, Canadian Alliance)

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Paul Szabo

The Chair

Á

1120

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

The Clerk

The Chair

Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, Lib.)

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais

Mr. James Moore

Mr. Stan Keyes

Á

1125

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. James Moore

The Chair

---

CANADA

Standing Committee on Transport

---

NUMBER 001

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Thursday, November 7, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Á  (1100)  

[English]

    The Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members, I see a quorum. We will now proceed to the election of the chair. If more than one nomination is submitted, we will proceed to secret ballot, pursuant to Standing Order 106.

    I am now ready to receive nominations.

    Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.): Mr. Clerk, my name is Stan Keyes and I'm proud to be back with the strongest and proudest committee of the House of Commons, the Standing Committee on Transport.

    The Liberal members of the committee nominate Joe Comuzzi as chair of the transport committee.

    The Clerk: Are there any other nominations?

    Since there is only one nomination, I declare Mr. Comuzzi elected chair.

    Some hon. members: Hear, hear!

    The Clerk: We will now proceed to the election of vice-chairs. I'm ready to receive nominations.

    Mr. Mark Eyking (Sydney—Victoria, Lib.): I nominate Marcel Proulx for the position of vice-chair.

    Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Clerk, could we just clarify this? Are we electing the government vice-chair first, and then the opposition vice-chair?

    The Clerk: We could do it that way, yes.

    Mr. Jim Gouk: It would be clearer if we knew what we were trying to do.

    The Clerk: Are there any more nominations?

    Are there any objections? Is everyone in agreement?

    Some hon. members: Agreed.

    The Clerk: Mr. Marcel Proulx is declared vice-chair of this committee.

    From the opposition side, are there any nominations?

    Mr. Jim Gouk: I nominate James Moore.

    The Clerk: Are there any other nominations?

    Monsieur Asselin.

[Translation]

    Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): In view of the motion adopted this week in the House of Commons, I would like one of the vice-chairs to be an opposition member. Therefore, I nominate someone from the opposition, namely Mario Laframboise.

Á  (1105)  

[English]

    The Clerk: We have two nominations. Mr. Gouk nominated Mr. Moore and Mr. Asselin nominated M. Laframboise. We will have to proceed to a secret ballot.

    Mr. Stan Keyes: Are there any other nominations?

    The Clerk: My colleague and I will give you the ballots, and we invite you to put them in the urn.

    [Members vote by secret ballot]

    The Clerk: I am pleased to announce that Mr. Moore has been elected vice-chair.

    I now invite Mr. Comuzzi to take the chair, please.

Á  (1110)  

    The Chair (Mr. Joe Comuzzi (Thunder Bay—Superior North, Lib.)): I never thought I'd make it.

    I'm glad I got this job, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much. I have to tell you, I didn't have any offers from southern law firms, so this is the only job I have.

    Mr. Jim Gouk: We put in a bad word with the law firms because we wanted you here.

    The Chair: Thanks, Jim.

    I thank the members of the committee. I want to thank the previous chairman, Ovid. You've set a fine example for all of us to follow, and I thank you very much for all your efforts in the committee.

    Mr. Jim Gouk: Look up, Joe, we're taking a picture now.

    The Chair: You have routine motions in front of you. Item number one, the two vice-chairs and the parliamentary secretary. How many parliamentary secretaries do we have present? There are three parliamentary secretaries. Which one is transport? Okay, so that's the one to whom we refer. And a representative of the Bloc and the NDP and the Progressive Conservative Party do compose a subcommittee on agenda and procedures. All those in favour, please signify. And those who are opposed.

    (Motion agreed to--See Minutes of Proceedings)

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Library of Parliament: that we appoint and retain the services of a researcher. I don't know if anyone knows this young man sitting next to me here, John Christopher, but would you consider taking this responsibility on, sir?

    Mr. John Christopher (Research Officer, Library of Parliament): Yes, Mr. Chairman.

    The Chair: So it's John Christopher. Does that meet with your approval? The mover is Ovid and the seconder is James.

    (Motion agreed to--See Minutes of Proceedings)

    Mr. Stan Keyes: Mr. Chairman, may I propose leaving the door open, though, to the proposition that if the committee is in need of more than one researcher, depending on the project at hand, we still leave ourselves open to the possibility of obtaining an additional researcher to our committee?

    The Chair: Sure, as needed and at the discretion. You're thinking of June Dewetering, who also serves on this committee.

    Mr. Stan Keyes: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    The Chair: Hearing evidence and publication. Is that moved, Paul? Yes.

    (Motion agreed to--See Minutes of Proceedings)

    The Chair: Allocation for questioning: ten minutes for the first round, five minutes for the second round.

    Yes, Mr. Barnes.

    Mr. Rex Barnes (Gander—Grand Falls, PC): Just a question. While I've been sitting in on some other meetings there has been some questioning on the ten-minute timeframe, that it may cause problems, and I believe it was seven minutes before. Was it seven minutes? I'm not really sure.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): It's been ten. Transport has done that for a number of years now. It usually works fine.

    Mr. Rex Barnes: I know there were some concerns in other areas and I didn't know if there would be a concern here, especially if you called a minister to testify or come in to give statements or something. It could prolong things. Would that be too long?

    Mr. Stan Keyes: Given that the committee is the master of its own destiny, if we decide as a group that the minister should have twenty minutes instead of ten or thirty, we can decide at those meetings in an ad hoc fashion.

    The Chair: Perhaps we should add “discretionary” in there. To be quite truthful with you, Mr. Barnes, sometimes when the questioning is at a precise moment of a witness's time, I think the chairman will allow the questioner to carry on even if it's beyond the ten minutes.

    I think that's what you're getting at. Am I correct?

    Mr. Rex Barnes: Yes.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    We have a mover, Paul Szabo, and a seconder. Are we all agreed?

    (Motion agreed to--See Minutes of Proceedings)

    The Chair: Witness expenses, 48 hours' notice, Mr. Keyes, Ms. Desjarlais. Witness expenses.

    (Motion agreed to--See Minutes of Proceedings)

    The Chair: Next is order in council appointments.

Á  (1115)  

    Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.): Bring them up to the committee and let them deal with them.

    The Chair: Somebody enlighten me on this issue, please. Stan, maybe you can. The appointments by order in council, do they come before the transport committee in matters pertaining to transport for review prior to appointment? Or are we notified that they are appointed?

    Mr. Stan Keyes: Mr. Chairman, if you wanted to seize yourself with that and not do any work as a transport committee other than go through the hundreds of appointments that might have to go through transport, I guess we could.

    The Chair: How many appointments are we talking about?

    Mr. Stan Keyes: It's usually the order in council for appointment or the certificate for appointment that's referred to the committee. So, in essence, the appointment has already been made and we are notified of that particular item. This is something that we broached about eight or ten years ago when we were curious about who was being nominated or appointed to these particular posts. We asked that these appointments be referred to the committee, or the certificate at least, so it would give the government and opposition members a chance to glance through exactly who had been appointed or nominated.

    It's more of a courtesy, but it is enshrined within our orders.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Szabo.

    Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): I think the House is actually considering the matter in terms of House regulations about the review of appointments, etc. We may have developments that will help us here. In the interim, since this is the standard motion and perhaps to see if there's an appetite within the committee, I would be prepared to move items 7 through 12.

    Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, Canadian Alliance): I second that.

    The Chair: Working lunches, distribution of papers, presence of staff, in camera meetings, transcription of in camera meetings, and committee meetings.

    Mr. Stan Keyes: I was only going to move the amendment to number 9, working lunches, to anything but pizza.

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    Mr. Paul Szabo: A friendly amendment.

    The Chair: With the chair, now, how does a little pasta and ravioli sound?

Á  (1120)  

    Mr. Stan Keyes: Excellent, Mr. Chair.

    (Motions agreed to--See Minutes of Proceedings)

    The Chair: Thank you all.

    Do we have anything else, Mr. Clerk?

    The Clerk: No.

    The Chair: There is one item that I think we have to address immediately and for budgetary purposes, if we should agree. I, along with Mr. Keyes--and I think Ovid was on the committee and some other people--chaired a special caucus committee for three or four years with respect to a national highway program for Canada. The concept that we were trying to arrive at was a four-lane, coast-to-coast highway system with particularly emphasis on the 11 major border crossing points into the United States. It's a good concept and we have proper financing in place...the way it can be done in a period of between five and seven years, using the public and private sectors for financing the highway system.

    Recently there have been some announcements with respect to a highway in New Brunswick, which we're not going to interfere with, a highway in Quebec, and a recent announcement about some piece of road that's going to be done in Saskatchewan. This takes away most of the money that was allocated to highways this year, whereas had we applied those funds to a national highway program, we could have taken care of all of Canada over a five-year program.

    If I have the committee's approval, I would like to share our findings of what we've been able to ascertain through the national highway committee with the members of the opposition and put that on the first order of our agenda when we return from the break. We will discuss the national highway program, if it meets with the concurrence of the majority of the members of the committee, then we will recommend that it be reported to the House.

    Mr. Harvey, yes.

[Translation]

    Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. May I congratulate you on your election.

    As far as the committee's agenda is concerned, I think it would be best to discuss that at our next meeting, to ensure that we have a range of three or four important topics. Among other things, there's the whole question of Bill C-17 which is currently before the House. Another matter is the Department of Transport's blueprint for public security. Draft legislation is now before the House and should normally come before the committee for consideration.

    I think the committee should also consider looking into the problems associated with Canada's highway system as part of its study of the blueprint. How will we reconcile the various transportation modes, that is road, shipping and rail? Most certainly this will be a main focus of the committee in the coming months. Most likely the minister will one day be tabling a discussion paper on these issues, and specifically on urban transportation problems. How will we approach these issues?

    Obviously, these issues tie in with the national highway system. By the way, I'd just like to say that the two large-scale projects announced in New Brunswick and Quebec involve sections of highway that are already part of the national highway system.

    Summing up, before we define our priorities, I'd like us to discuss a few subjects that could be suggested to us by our research officer and by our clerk over the course of the next few meetings.

    That's my humble opinion, Mr. Chairman.

    Thank you very much. Je vous remercie.

[English]

    The Chair: Thank you for that.

    Mrs. Desjarlais.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I'm certainly in agreement with having whatever items that committee members think need to be discussed come before the committee as a grouping before we pick one over the other.

    On the issue of Bill C-17, my understanding was that a separate committee was going to be dealing with that bill. As to whether or not it's made up of transport committee members, that might be the case, but my understanding is it's going to be a separate committee from transport. So unless there has been some change there that we're not aware of.... It would be interesting to find out.

    But although I'm in agreement as well that a national highway program is something we should look at, in all fairness to other items that the committee might wish to deal with, I think we should have them before us before we make a decision.

    The Chair: Mr. Moore.

    Mr. James Moore: I think these two points go hand in hand. Bill C-55 was going to be sent to a separate all-party committee, and anybody...I was going to be on that, but we were also going to have Vic Toews, our justice critic, and so on.

    Certainly I think these points go hand in hand, that maybe this decision can be moved to the first meeting after the break, where we can find out if Bill C-17 is going to a separate committee, and then we can also have all the committee members coming here with our list of priorities for the committee.

    Mr. Stan Keyes: Mr. Chairman, can I make the following suggestion? Just as an aside to your suggestion, which I think is a very good one, I understand that this committee was seized with something that was very close to the whole idea and folded in the idea of highways. What was the last study?

    Mr. John Christopher: It was truckers' hours of service, and the second part of the study was infrastructure and border crossings.

    Mr. Stan Keyes: And I think border crossings also could fold in the whole idea of highways, because how do you get to a border crossing if you don't have a highway?

    But that aside and the nuance of whether you fold that in or not, may I suggest that in the normal course of events you would have your steering committee meet and make a recommendation to the full committee. But perhaps I could make a suggestion that the first steering committee actually be the full committee of transport, so that we can all bring our issues forward, they can all be listed, and we can all decide as a group where the priorities are on each of these items. The parliamentary secretary, André Harvey, will provide us with what legislation will be before us, because, as we know, we have to deal with legislation before we deal with anything else. So we can have all that come together for us for the first meeting after our week in the constituency, and we can discuss this as an entire committee, rather than just a steering group, so that all our ideas can come forward, including this one.

Á  (1125)  

    The Chair: I appreciate that. That's what we'll do. But let me go back to one of the fundamental principles by which we will operate, I hope, that this committee, the transport committee, reports to the House of Commons. That's our primary obligation, and we will form our own agenda, basically, on those issues that are very important to transportation issues as they relate in the House of Commons. I'm thinking particularly of Raymond's grain car issue, and the sale of the grain car is very important; the seaway; and the Canada Shipping Act, which is extremely important for transportation up the corridor, and different ways we can better that. I think those are critical. We're going to have to review the Canada Transportation Act.

    Mr. Stan Keyes: There's the review of the Canada Marine Act that will be before us, the amendments to the CTA, all kinds of things, and if we're structured enough, we can see how some of these issues may fold in. If we're discussing the Canada Marine Act, for example, we may be able to fold an issue that we're seized with into the whole discussion and bring the witnesses forward, or that may reflect some of the input we want in, maybe, amendments to the Canada Marine Act.

    But I'll move that this committee, at its first meeting following the week in the constituency, meet as a committee of the whole rather than a steering committee, to put all these issues on the table, including any possible bills that will be coming our way and an approximate date when we might get them, so that we can spend at least two to three weeks before Christmas maybe doing one of these items and getting through it and reporting to the House before the House adjourns.

    Mr. James Moore: I second that.

    The Chair: That has been seconded, and in the meantime what I'll do is have our able research assistant send to the members of the opposition the information we have with respect to the proposal for a national highway, so that they'll be able to bring themselves up to speed with what this side of the table already has.

    Approved? Is there any discussion?

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: Thank you very much. This meeting is adjourned.