SVET Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, February 26, 2003

¹

1535

The Chair (Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.))

Hon. Rey Pagtakhan (Minister of Veterans Affairs)

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1540

¹

1545

¹

1550

The Chair

Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian Alliance)

¹

1555

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

º

1600

The Chair

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ)

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

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1605

Mr. Louis Plamondon

Mr. Larry Murray (Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs)

Mr. Louis Plamondon

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

M. Louis Plamondon

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Louis Plamondon

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

The Chair

Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.)

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1610

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Carmen Provenzano

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Larry Murray

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1615

Mr. Carmen Provenzano

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Brian Ferguson (Assistant Deputy Minister, Veterans Services, Department of Veterans Affairs)

Mr. Carmen Provenzano

The Chair

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC)

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Larry Murray

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1620

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

Mr. Darragh Mogan (Director General, Program and Service Policy Division, Department of Veterans Affairs)

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

Mr. Darragh Mogan

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

Mr. Darragh Mogan

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

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1625

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.)

Mr. Larry Murray

Mr. Darragh Mogan

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

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1630

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

The Chair

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Roy Bailey

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1635

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Le président

Mr. Louis Plamondon

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1640

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Louis Plamondon

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1645

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

The Chair

Mr. Ivan Grose (Oshawa, Lib.)

The Chair

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

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1650

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Larry Murray

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

The Chair

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Larry Murray

º

1655

The Chair

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

The Chair

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

The Chair

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Larry Murray

The Chair

Mr. Rey Pagtakhan

Mr. Larry Murray

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1700

The Chair

Mr. Larry Murray

The Chair

Mr. Larry Murray

The Chair

Mr. Larry Murray

The Chair

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CANADA

Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

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NUMBER 003

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Wednesday, February 26, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.)): Good afternoon.

    Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we proceed with our study on long-term care for veterans.

    We welcome this afternoon the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the people with him. I would ask the minister to introduce the people he's brought this afternoon.

    Hon. Rey Pagtakhan (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, first things first. I would like to congratulate you, Mr. Chairman, on your election. I know the subcommittee will benefit from your experience and long-standing interest in issues affecting our veterans.

    It is my pleasure to appear before you today. With me are my senior departmental officials, who many of you already know. They are Deputy Minister Larry Murray, Assistant Deputy Minister, Veterans Services, Brian Ferguson, director general, Policy Coordination in Ottawa Headquarters, Michaela Huard, and director general, Program and Service Policy Division, Darragh Mogan.

    In the one year plus a few weeks I have been the Minister of Veterans Affairs I have had the privilege and opportunity to know first-hand that the rank and file of departmental employees are very committed to and have been providing the highest quality service to our veterans. My staff have been making a significant and important difference to the lives of the more than 700,000 veterans in every region of Canada, of whom 300,000 are Korean and World War era veterans. Even though we consider our programs and services to be among the best in the world, we continue to work to improve the benefits and services to them and their families.

    In his budget 2003 speech, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance John Manley said:

If we, as a nation, are to summon the resolve to face our future challenges, we must never forget the courage and sacrifice of the past. So this government has and will continue to pay tribute to Canada's veterans.

Indeed, we owe them a debt of gratitude for serving our nation during its time of greatest need, and we pledge to keep alive the memory of their achievements.

    A direct manifestation of Canada's recognition of our veterans is reflected in the fact that Veterans Affairs Canada spends more than $2 billion each year in programs for them. In fiscal year 2002-2003 Veterans Affairs Canada will have spent approximately $1.38 billion on disability pensions and another $650 million on health care benefits for our veterans. Next year these numbers will increase by almost $100 million in disability pensions and $50 million in health care benefits. These numbers represent tangible benefits to veterans and their families.

    In 2002-2003 VAC received 22,000 applications for pensions, a twofold increase since 1999. For the first time in many years the total number of pensioners has significantly increased. While I am on the subject of pensions, you may be interested to know that our most recent rate for successful applications is 71.4%.

    As I mentioned earlier, the lion's share of our spending is devoted to taking care of those who took care of us. As you know, the department works in close consultation with our veterans organizations. I can tell you that they have been advocating strongly and effectively for important program improvements, particularly for veterans as they age and their health care needs become more complex. I have had many extremely positive discussions with the leaders of the major veterans organizations. In fact, I met with some of them again just two weeks ago to discuss their priorities for veterans.

    Let me start with long-term care. This is a primary concern to them, as it is for all of us; it is the continuing subject of study of this subcommittee. Like most Canadians with a keen interest in health care, I am notably impressed by the range and calibre of services provided to our veteran clients.

    Since we last met, we have launched a comprehensive study on long-term care for veterans. Last summer my department received your interim report entitled “Long-term Care for Veterans: The West Coast Crisis”. I want to assure you that I support your recommendations and am committed to addressing them, as outlined in our response tabled November 7 last year. As an update to the report, we expect to have an agreement shortly with the George Derby Centre and continue to have positive discussions with the Lodge at Broadmead. We're taking a more active role in managing waiting lists, to ensure that eligible veterans have access to institutional care when they need it. We have received waiting lists from the larger facilities in B.C. and will continue to receive these lists on a regular basis.

    I know the committee is very interested in the standards of care provided in long-term care facilities, so you may be interested to know that last fall the Canadian Council on Health Services Accreditation began to use VAC's ten outcome areas as part of their regular accreditation reviews of larger facilities. We are working closely with the Royal Canadian Legion to further expand appropriate standards of care and develop a monitoring system that would allow for independent surveyors to conduct assessments on the level of care provided to veterans in smaller facilities across the country.

    As well, I was pleased to announce last month a one year tele-home care pilot project, a joint initiative between Veterans Affairs Canada and the Government of Prince Edward Island. Using existing telephone systems and cutting-edge technology, the project allows health care staff to interact verbally and visually with clients and obtain vital health care data, such as blood pressure or heart and lung sounds. Tele-home care offers considerable benefits in delivering nursing care to veterans in their homes. We are especially excited about the advantages this will have for those who live in the rural areas of Canada.

    We are also looking for ways VAC can provide health care benefits to our veterans based on their health care needs, rather than exclusively on their pension conditions. This approach recognizes the difficulty of relating a health care service to a disability that occurred some 50 years ago, especially when taking age-related health conditions into account.

    I would now like to go to the VIP extension for spouses program. One of our most important health care benefits is the veterans independence program, better known as VIP. My department is very pleased to offer VIP benefits and services to eligible veteran clients to enable them to remain independent in their own homes and communities. The program indirectly supports spouses, many of whom also have health problems. We recognize that the sudden withdrawal of these services at the time of the veteran's death could place undue hardship on the survivor. That is why we extend housekeeping and grounds keeping services to survivors for one year, provided that the services were in place at the time of the veteran's death. The possible extension of the VIP for widows and widowers beyond the current one-year continuation period is a key priority for veterans organizations, as well as for members around this table, on behalf of those Canadians.

    Another priority of veterans organizations has been POW compensation. As you know, VAC has paid pensions to former prisoners of war for many years. However, the veterans organizations have expressed concerns that we need to do more to recognize those veterans who were incarcerated for shorter or longer periods of time than is currently permitted. Again, we are working very closely with veterans organizations in an effort to explore means by which these priorities can be more effectively addressed.

    While we are continuing to work hard to provide our traditional war era veterans with the services they need, we are also working with equal determination and in close collaboration with the Department of National Defence, veterans organizations, and other agencies and stakeholders to respond to the needs of younger Canadian Forces veterans. Our commitment is to ensure that members of the Canadian Forces receive the benefits and services to which they are entitled. We are equally committed to ensuring that those members who are being released for medical reasons, as well as their families, receive the appropriate assistance in making the transition to civilian life. One issue of particular interest to me as a medical doctor, of course, is post-traumatic stress disorder and other operational stress injuries.

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    Working hand-in-hand with the Department of National Defence, we have significantly improved our ability to assess and treat Canadian Forces members and veterans. Last summer Minister McCallum and I announced a joint operational stress injury strategy. Let me now bring you up to date on our progress.

    We are developing networks of excellence in the assessment and treatment of PTSD and other operational stress injuries, including a centre at Ste. Anne's hospital with both out-patient and in-patient treatment capability. We are building capacity in this area through educational forums, and we are collaborating with DND on research initiatives. Honourable members may be interested to know that St. Anne's hospital will be hosting an education forum on PTSD in early May, which is expected to attract experts from around the world.

    With respect to disability pensions for PTSD, VAC has a dedicated team of adjudicators who process such claims. Approval rates are currently more than 80%. We have revised our health care delivery to better support the social and emotional needs of individuals with PTSD and their families.

    Finally, VAC and DND have launched a peer support network, so that CF members and veterans who have been exposed to traumatic events or prolonged stress can talk to someone who knows what they're going through. To date almost 400 Canadian Forces members and veterans have used the operational stress injury social support network. I wish to reassure the committee that while important progress has been made, we are continually reminded of the challenges and consequences of PTSD and other injuries of this kind.

    Another client group, which often has needs closer to those of our CF veterans, is that of RCMP members. As you may know, Veterans Affairs Canada recently announced that it had entered a formal arrangement to take on the management of disability pensions and the administration of treatment benefits for retired RCMP regular members and civilian members who are patients for service related to injuries and illnesses. VAC has been adjudicating RCMP claims since 1948. With our expertise in health care and case management services, Veterans Affairs Canada can now provide improved service to the RCMP disability pensioners as well. I would like to stress that this will not be at the expense of service to our traditional clients. In fact, this change represents a streamlining of services based on a business case favourable to both Veterans Affairs Canada and the RCMP.

    Mr. Chair and members of the committee, let me reiterate that my department prides itself on delivering the highest quality of service to all our clients. We're taking the concept of client-centred service to the next level through the integrated service delivery framework. This framework builds upon the very best of what we have done in the past, so we may serve all our clients better in the future. I would certainly welcome the opportunity to provide the committee, at your convenience, with more information on this innovative approach to client service. Should you wish a further brief overview at this time, you may prompt Mr. Ferguson to provide it later by way of question.

    At this juncture let me say a few words about our “Canada Remembers” program. As you heard, the budget does increase the funding for our remembrance programming. I hope to be in a position to announce further details shortly.

    As honourable members know, it has been our custom to mark the major anniversary dates of significant Canadian contributions in the two World Wars and in Korea through pilgrimages abroad and commemorative ceremonies at home. We will mark several significant anniversaries this year, 2003. In early May we will be honouring the 60th anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic. We will be marking the 50th anniversary of the end of the Korean War at various events throughout the year. In November we will have an opportunity to remember the 85th anniversary of the armistice that brought the First World War to a close.

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    Relative to the First World War, the government is moving forward with the restoration and rehabilitation of the Canadian National Vimy Memorial Monument. On Monday I join my colleague, the Honourable Ralph Goodale, Minister of Public Works and Government Services, to announce that the contract for architectural and engineering services has been awarded. A contract with the construction phase is expected to be awarded in the fall, and construction should begin in early 2004. The project is expected to be completed in 2006. As you know, the Government of Canada has committed $30 million to the restoration of Vimy and 12 other Canadian First World War battlefield memorials in Europe.

    Members may be interested to know that the “Canada Remembers” program represents a very modest amount, roughly $39 million a year, of our overall spending. However, we are able to collaborate with many like-minded groups, including veterans organizations, to ensure that the message of remembrance is shared with as many Canadians as possible.

    In closing, Mr. Chairman, I would like to leave you with some statistics from our most recent client satisfaction survey. On average, 85% of our clients have been satisfied with the services and benefits provided by VAC. This does not mean our work is complete. Nonetheless, it does compare very favourably with rates for government services in Canada.

    Finally, I understand this committee will be visiting eastern Canada as it concludes its study on long-term care. I wish you well in your work, and I am sure your findings will provide important insight for my department.

    Honourable members, Veterans Affairs Canada has a special mandate, to keep the faith with those who risked life and limb so that future generations would enjoy the many blessings of peace and freedom, hence our mission statement:

To provide veterans, qualified civilians and their families the benefits and services to which they're entitled; to promote their well-being and self-sufficiency as participating members of their communities; and to keep the memory of their achievements and sacrifices alive for all Canadians.

    I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to appear before you, and I look forward to your advice and guidance as we move forward in addressing the needs of our most deserving citizens, our veterans. Indeed, we can all agree that they have inspired a nation. I would now be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

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    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Minister, for your opening remarks.

    Before we get to the questions, I have a few comments to my colleagues. We would like to have an in camera meeting, maybe after the questions to the minister are over, maybe around 5 o'clock, for ten minutes or so. We need to get together to sort out a few details.

    In the meantime, we've got plenty of time for questioning, and we'll start off, for the first seven minutes, with Mr. Bailey.

    Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Minister and the group travelling with you, because we've looked forward to this.

    Mr. Minister, I just wanted to bring you up to date on a few things I'm sure you are well acquainted with. We have a new long-term care facility being planned for the city of Edmonton. From what I have read so far, it's a unique facility with many innovations. I hope someday I'll have a chance to visit that, because it's something new on the horizon. I think it's a few years before completion, but it sounds great.

    You mentioned the PTSD. The United States showed a documentary on the television the other day about the advancements they have made with the various syndromes and disorders. This was a fairly lengthy television program, to which I glued myself because of the evidence produced and the facts they were throwing around. I hope your department, and I'm sure they will, takes a look at that, because Canadians were side-by-side with the Americans in the desert war. I'm sure the results of the heavily scientific and medical testing they have done will serve us as well.

    That leads me to my first question. I met with Gulf War veterans before Christmas. We face the same problem as the U.S., we can't really pinpoint the disorder--maybe we will now. I was thinking of that today. If we send our soldiers to Iraq again, and there is a possibility, I hope we won't have the veterans 12 years from now--it's been 12 years since that war--still fighting for compensation for their disability. I want to make that point to you, and I hope we do find more medical and scientific clues on that.

    I have a question on the settlement with Métis veterans. I've been trying to get a handle on this, and I'm going to ask for some help from you or your staff. The Department of Veterans Affairs settled with the aboriginal veterans by giving them, I suppose, an ex gratia payment for cultural and societal difficulties they had. What is the whole basis for the current Métis claim, and do they face difficulties similar to those the aboriginals did in returning to the reserves?

    Finally, I know what you've stated in your speech, but I really believe this extension of the VIP to the surviving spouse of a deceased veteran should stay with her the rest of her life. I disagree with the policy that the program has to be in place or the spouse that is left doesn't qualify.That is difficult for me to accept, and I just want to pass that on to you.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

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    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: As to the long-term care facility in Edmonton, may I say that even if eventually I should retire, like you, Mr. Bailey, I will still look for what I can envision would be an exciting facility for veterans in the country. It certainly would be a reflection of the values we attach to our veterans.

    The show on the broadcast media I missed. I certainly will request my department to get a clip of that, if it does not already have it, and we will pursue that. I would also add that the department has always been following medical advances, research in progress, and interim reports relating to this very issue, because we feel that anything new we gain could add to our ability to even further enhance our delivery of benefit programs to veterans, in whatever area or theatre of war they might have served.

    As to what could happen--I hope it does not happen--with a war in Iraq, I, from my readings, am told the United States has put in place a mechanism to study the whole situation of exposure, collecting data in a prospective way, so that they will have data relating to this particular exposure, if in fact it should happen. Then they can compare, since it would be a prospective look, rather than a retrospective analysis; the latter is fraught with many limitations in the science of medicine in respect of interpretation. Hopefully, it will be one more approach, should it take place, that we would have in our file to be able to answer more definitively the question of the Gulf War syndrome. As you may know, in medical parlance, syndrome means a cluster of manifestations related to a given event, geographic area of exposure, or what have you for which we do not yet know the underlying cause. The medical experts at this point have not designated this syndrome a disease. It could take many years before the scientific medical community will be able to assign a particular cause and therefore graduate this particular cluster of symptoms from syndrome to disease.

    With the Métis veterans, we have given, as you correctly pointed out, an offer of goodwill up to $20,000 to the first nations. I should point out that one very striking difference of which we should always remind ourselves is that for those who went to the reserves, services were given via a third party, via agents. Because of the many discussions and debates about this, a round table was held in 2000. Following that, the department, after consultations among us, took the view that rather than having the judicial litigation process be the guide in the resolution of this issue, we would make this offer of goodwill to them. I am pleased to report that as of the deadline of February 15 well over the 1,800 estimated by the round table applied. Of course, we are now in the midst of trying to ascertain their applications by rechecking with our records, and 2,368 were received on or before the deadline. Already we have verified 564. We are now completing the processing, and the idea is to have them as complete as possible, so that we can have the exact amount credited to them according to our offer.

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    The Chair: I'll have to stop you there. We are well over the time limit.

[Translation]

    Mr. Plamondon, the you have the floor for seven minutes.

    Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, BQ): Thank you Mr. Chair.

    First, I would like to say, Mr. Minister, that I have had to contact your office on two or three occasions, and I was surprised at how diligent your staff was in responding to my calls. They called back that very same day, or the next day, and they did everything they could to try to help our constituents that were having problems with your department. This speaks volumes about you, as a new minister, to have been able to hire such efficient staff. That was the bouquet, now for the brickbats.

    I am always surprised when constituents call my office because they are having problems with the department when it comes to their medical exam. Take the example of Mr. Daniel St-Jean, from Laval, who cannot understand what happened to him, nor can I, for that matter. He saw two doctors, a GP by the name of Dr. Nguyen and a musculoskeletal specialist, Ms. Coté, and they determined that due to his injuries or the fact that he is a veteran, he must wear a certain type of shoe or ankle boot. He applied, but then, some doctor at the other end of the country, without knowing him, without ever having seen him in person, said that he did not need the shoes. He said that Mr. St-Jean was simply aging and that it had nothing to do with the disease or the injuries that he could have sustained.

    I find it maddening that some doctor who has never examined the person in question, can decide that he is not eligible for these shoes. If one doctor says one thing and a second doctor says something else, the client is automatically wrong. Mr. St-Jean received a letter saying that his request was refused because some other doctor says that Mr. St-Jean's doctor is no good. Why does this always happen, or happen often enough? I would like the committee, or one of your specialists, to look into this example to see why such a decision was made, where because of two differing medical opinions, a veteran is being denied help.

[English]

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: I would like to premise my reply by saying that nowithstanding that you are introducing it as a record for the committee to peruse, I'm still bound by the Privacy Act, and I hope you understand that I cannot comment on the given individual case. But on the general issue you have raised, it's a valid point. There are always potential differences of medical opinion. Even among practitioners not involved with Veterans Affairs Canada there could always be differences of opinion as to how one relates a particular diagnosis to a particular event in the medical history of the patient. I will make an undertaking to review this particular issue and see how we can add additional clarity to our approach where there is a difference between the medical opinion of practitioners writing for the veterans and the medical opinion of our adjudicators and reviewers in the office. I would not like to impugn anyone's medical credentials, because we have no ability to make a judgment as to how we can hope to reconcile competing medical claims. I will discuss this with my officials, so that we can resolve this issue, because even in medical practice, as you can understand, there can be differences of opinion--I was a family practitioner, I was a pediatric specialist, I became a lung specialist.

    I would like to provide an answer to this perhaps at a later date, Mr. Chairman.

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[Translation]

    Mr. Louis Plamondon: I have a short question, Mr. Chair.

    You said that there would be an information forum on post-traumatic stress disorder at the Sainte-Anne hospital in early May. Do you have the exact date? If not, could you forward it to committee members?

    Mr. Larry Murray (Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs): I believe it is May 1 or 3, but we will check that.

    Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you.

    A Mr. Deblois sent me a newspaper article. I am not aware of this, but you probably are. The article appeared in October 2000 and says that Ottawa would be providing $1.3 billion for 10,000 veterans. This was in October 2000, following a ruling by Justice John Brokenshire of the Supreme Court of Ontario in favour of veterans who claimed that Ottawa had knowingly withheld the interest from their cheques.

    This gentleman simply sent me the article with a note at the top of the page that read: “Where is my money?” Are you aware of this judgment and what is the status of it? Is the government appealing it or is there the possibility of money being paid out in the near future?

    I would like your response to that.

[English]

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: As you may knoew, this case is still before the courts, so it would be--

[Translation]

    M. Louis Plamondon: You are appealing the ruling?

[English]

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: Yes. The Government of Canada filed for leave to appeal, and that has been granted by the court. I cannot comment any more on the case.

[Translation]

    Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you.

[English]

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: But before I end, Mr. Chairman, now having answered his questions, I will accept the compliments. Thank you.

    The Chair: Mr. Provenzano.

    Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): To assist the committee in keeping the division between the Department of National Defence and the Department of Veterans Affairs clear in our minds, as some of the issues we're dealing with overlap departmental jurisdictions and responsibilities, I think it would be interesting to hear what areas are primarily areas of interaction and what level of activity occurs between your ministry and the Department of National Defence with respect to issues such as PTSD, service disability pensions. I think, if you could explain that to the committee, it would be of assistance, because some of us have a tendency not to be aware of where the Department of Veterans Affairs' jurisdiction starts and stops.

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    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: From time to time there may be differences of interpretation on the part of one minister or the other, but I can assure you that so far any differences of opinion have been resolved.

    At a general level, there is a Veterans Affairs Canada and Canadian Forces advisory committee, in which veterans organizations also participate very actively. The major issues or concerns affecting veterans are put forward to this committee, and the committee advises the minister and the department. So we're on top of most of the issues.

    On issues that affect the two departments on a more day-to-day basis or an going basis and are not handled by the advisory committee, I meet with the Minister of Defence, either in person or by telephone, on issues like PTSD. We had a joint announcement in Ste. Anne's, as I mentioned in my opening remarks. In fact, I met with him recently to discuss one item relating to chemical testing, just to indicate to you how we work cooperatively towards having a better understanding. We hope, as a result of that meeting just about a couple of weeks ago, to have one proactive role in relation to that issue.

    Mr. Carmen Provenzano: Are you satisfied, Minister, that there's a smooth transfer of responsibility when you have a situation, say, where you have what's sometimes called a new veteran, and that new veteran's needs become the responsibility of your department, as opposed to the Department of National Defence?

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: When there is an honourable discharge of a member of the forces, assuming, of course, that one has met the professional qualifications for that service, by definition, that person is a veteran, so it's very clear that all his entitlements to health care, income support, pensions, or what have you are provided by Veterans Affairs Canada. Here there is excellent clarity.

    Where there is a potential for questions as to who is in charge is when the persons are still being released and in the process of transition. This is where we have greater efforts to ensure that the two departments are working collaboratively.

    But there is also another potential source of questions on the part of the Canadian public. When you discuss benefits and services given to veterans who have been discharged and looked upon as insufficient, the question may be based on the entitlement of the person under the program of the Department of National Defence, for example, injury under the insurance plans of the Department of National Defence. But I am glad that the Minister of National Defence recently, by making that announcement, has clarified that there is an obligation on the part of the department to make the level of insurance coverage identical.

    Is there anything else you would like to add, deputy?

    Mr. Larry Murray: I think you've basically covered it.

    With disability pensions, it doesn't matter whether they're in or out, they're entitled, thanks to legislation that this committee was part of.

    As to health care, if the individual is still in the forces, the forces remain responsible for the health care. We had some confusion, which may be what you're referring to. That's been clarified now. However, we do share capability, we do share facilities. The Ste. Anne's PTSD centre actually has more serving regular force members as clients than veterans, and some of the DND facilities across the country have as many recently released CF members. So we share facilities, but there's no confusion about the actual provision of health care, and we're working really hard on the transition, which is the issue you raised. We are now on-base in 17 facilities across the country to ensure that there is a hand-off, which, to some extent, I hope addresses Mr. Bailey's concern about those being deployed now. The connections are there, and there should not be people falling between the cracks. We're also providing briefings to everyone who is deployed. We briefed 20,000 people last year.

    So I think there's much great clarity in the area where there was a bit of confusion on the health care side and the rest of it. We're working hand-in-glove, but in very clear partnership arrangements, so it's not confusing to the clients who they're dealing with, us or DND.

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    Mr. Carmen Provenzano: But there is an array of programs delivered by Veterans Affairs. In some of those programs, I understand, Veterans Affairs is partnered with DND. Am I correct in that? Can you just mention a few to the committee where the two departments have partnered up to deliver a program?

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: I will ask Mr. Ferguson to give you details on that.

    Mr. Brian Ferguson (Assistant Deputy Minister, Veterans Services, Department of Veterans Affairs): I'll give you two examples. The first is the VAC-DND Centre for the Support of Injured and Retired Members and their Families, which opened in April 1999 in Ottawa. It's jointly operated by DND and Veterans Affairs Canada. It provides information referral and assistance support to former and current CF members and their families. The second example is one the deputy minister mentioned. Veterans Affairs clients who are CF veterans have access to DND's post-deployment regional health centres for diagnosis, clarification, and development of treatment plans.

    Mr. Carmen Provenzano: Thank you.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Provenzano.

    Mrs. Wayne, you have the floor for seven minutes.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

    Mr. Minister, a couple of weeks ago in the House we asked a question, and the response was from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Defence. It had to do with mustard gas and what kind of compensation was going to be given to these national heroes. I have a gentleman from British Columbia who has been in touch with me. He sent me some videos. Maybe you've seen them, but I couldn't believe what I saw in those videos, what it did to their bodies. According to the parliamentary secretary, you and the Minister of Defence, both of you, will do everything you can to ensure that Canadian veterans affected by mustard gas are compensated and looked after. Could you advise this committee where you and the Department of Veterans Affairs stand with regard to compensation for those tested with mustard gas during the Second World War?

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: For greater clarity, I would like to look at compensation as two sub-types. There is compensation by way of their entitlement to benefits, treatment plans, and all the services that would go to any other veteran. They are entitled to that, and all they have to show is that the disability they have was incurred during their military service, irrespective of whether it was exposure to a trial or what have you. There is no time limitation on applying for this compensation.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: They haven't been receiving that kind of help. Mr. Tanner has not received it.

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: I don't know the exact statistics. Deputy, would you like to respond to that?

    Mr. Larry Murray: Someone else may have the exact numbers of those who are actually receiving the benefits, but they are totally entitled to the benefits. Indeed, we are engaged in proactively trying to identify people. We recently received a list of about 2,500 names, and we're trying to track those people down. They have been entitled since whenever the testing was. If indeed they suffered a disability because of that exposure, they are absolutely entitled to full pension and health care benefits. We would very much like to contact them. How many actual clients we have who are clients as a result of exposure to chemical testing, I'm not sure we know exactly, just because people have come in since the war. I think we do know how many have come through the door since 2001, and that's 31 or so.

º  (1620)  

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Well I'll get you Mr. Tanner's telephone number, address, and everything, there's no question about that. I'll get that to you, Larry, in the next couple of days.

    Mr. Minister, are you aware of the involvement of the Legion with regard to Joints in Motion? This has to do with the Royal Canadian Legion, particularly the branch back in my riding in St. John. They're going to be part of Joints in Motion in Belgium in the fall. They got in touch with me through a lady who represents Ridgewood Veterans Hospital and all those veterans who have problems with arthritis and their joints and so on, because Joints in Motion has to do with arthritis. There are four people from the Ridgewood Veterans Hospital going to go over to Belgium and be part of whatever it is they're doing over there. Darragh, you may know about this--I see you shaking your head. Could you just inform us a little more about this?

    Mr. Darragh Mogan (Director General, Program and Service Policy Division, Department of Veterans Affairs): Mrs. Wayne, I'm aware of it. It's a very popular activity that involves things like walking around malls in the winter time. It's really important for those suffering from joint disease to keep moving, but not keep stressing their joints. I'm wandering into our minister's professional domain, so I won't say too much more than that.

    I've heard about the one in Ridgewood, but I know, wherever there is a health promotion activity we can work with through our district offices in partnership with the Legion or other areas, we do it. We have a health promotion director in Charlottetown who really pushes that sort of thing.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I should get them to get in touch with you.

    Mr. Darragh Mogan: You should.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Indeed I will, because they're looking at going to Belgium. It's not just next door.

    Mr. Darragh Mogan: They're not walking to Belgium, are they?

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: No, they want to fly. I'll sponsor one of them for flying, you can sponsor some of the others.

    I just have one other thing. As you know, Mr. Henwood was in to see me, the man who lost both of his legs. The Minister of Defence, I believe, stated that between you, Mr. Minister, and him, you were looking at making these changes. He is a veteran, he lost both of his legs, and he is only one of many. Some lost their hearing, some lost an arm, some lost a leg, but the compensation package only went to the officers. They've got nothing yet. The money was taken out of their paycheque every month for the insurance. This was supposed to be corrected. Could you just update us as to where this stands at the present time? The Minister of Defence has come out and said, all of those this has happened to from this day forward--that was a week ago, I think, or two--we are going to compensate and look after, but it's not retroactive. Well, Mr. Henwood, a veteran, now is not eligible, because it's not retroactive. It should be retroactive. It shouldn't be from today to the future that we're going to look after these people.

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: On retroactivity, I do not have any more specific answer. I could undertake to ask him if he has, and I'm almost sure you have already asked that question. I would only add that DND and Veterans Affairs Canada are working very closely now to harmonize our disability and pension plans for disability so that there is no duplication and no one is missed. So we are working towards the harmonization of our programs on this very issue.

º  (1625)  

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Ms. Ur.

    Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Minister, and congratulations. I know you will do a great job in your position. From my experience working with you, you're very sincere. I'm sure veterans will be better off serving with you.

    I'm a new person on this committee, so these questions may have been asked by my colleagues here, but just enlighten me a little. How many medical people are involved in Veterans Affairs to help you with these issues on the various diseases, problems, or concerns with our veterans? Do you have a staff of medical people within your department?

    Mr. Larry Murray: We have a structure that actually has a fair amount of medical expertise. A district office generally has a medical doctor attached to it. We normally have a qualified nurse as well. In the regional headquarters there are additional medical experts. In Ste. Anne's Hospital, which is a recognized centre for expertise in dementia, palliative care, and so on, we have a very large hospital staff. In our national headquarters we also have a fair amount of medical expertise. The minister, since arriving, has also directed that we enhance our research capability relative to medical expertise as well.

    I'll ask Darragh to talk to the national headquarters portion of our medical expertise.

    Mr. Darragh Mogan: We have--I'm making an estimate here--about 15 physicians working in the national headquarters, as advisors principally, but not exclusively, on difficult pension entitlement issues. I'm guessing you're including Ste. Anne's Hospital, and including those physicians whose services come to us on contract, we have well over 100. If you add the nursing complement in Ste. Anne's Hospital and in our district offices, there are well over 500. The majority of them are in the regional centres or in Ste. Anne's, the minority in the national centre.

    Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: I'm glad to hear that. In my riding the major concern is with the VIP for our veterans and their spouses. There seems to be a fairly lengthy wait for these individuals to get response to their concerns concerning the nature of their claims. That shouldn't be a problem if you have all these people available to the individuals to assess their needs under the VIP service.

    Information was submitted to us by the Library of Parliament, very good information, on the elderly veterans. The care for them can vary from province to province. Which province can set an example for the others? Where is the best service? Where do we need to improve the service? Is that putting you on the spot? If it is, that's okay--I still want an answer.

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: Knowing Rose-Marie from the health committee, I could almost anticipate the total question from the first word, and it speaks to her sincerity as well.

    Obviously, there could be some qualitative variations from place to place. This is true among hospitals in the country, among university medical schools in the country, even the teaching approaches with medical students. There are 10 outcome standards we have decided upon, agreed to by the veterans organizations, ranging from food quality, security, even spirituality, relaxation, recreational activities, use of drugs, and what have you. Following our client satisfaction result of 85%, I am assured that the quality of service is there, but we do not rest on that. We have put in place an accreditation process and a surveying process to ensure that from time to time we continue to monitor these. As well, the client satisfaction survey is repeated every two or three years to ensure that there is no complacency.

    If you're asking me for a real model of care for all other hospitals or facilities in the country for veterans, may I decline to answer that? Because I believe all of them are providing excellent care.

º  (1630)  

    Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Mr. Minister, you said it takes a fair amount of time, once someone's diagnosed with a syndrome, to get to the final analysis of a disease. What kind of time are we talking about? Sometimes, if an individual succumbs to a situation, they do not have a long time, because of the severity of the problem, to be diagnosed. So how quickly does your department make a judgment on syndrome to disease turnover?

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: The judgment is made by the medical community as a whole, not by the department, and we follow their identification of those conditions. I think it is critical to appreciate that the disability need not imply a diagnosis of a specific disease. It is enough that a disability exists related to military service, and that will be attended to. In other words, we are not completely dependent on medical expertise and specific names of diseases.

    The Chair: Mr. Roy Bailey, five minutes.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I want to get something off my chest. When I was a teenager, I learned Canada was going to have a war museum. When I was a little bit older, I realized that the war museum, had it been with this department, not the Department of Heritage, would be there and the over half of our veterans now deceased would have been able to see it. If you take the average of a veteran now and the time it will take for this thing to be finished, in spite of the millions of dollars that have been raised across Canada by the veterans, most of them will succumb before they get a chance to see it. I think that's a national disgrace, Mr. Minister--no disgrace upon this department, but a disgrace upon Canada, the last of all of the allies to put up a war museum. I'm a little bit older than some of the people here, and that's bothered me for a long time. I had to get it off my chest and let you know that.

    You said 2,368 Métis made application.

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: Those are applications of first nations people who went to serve.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Oh, I'm sorry, I thought that was Métis. But Métis are applying now?

º  (1635)  

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: No, we have offered them--

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Okay. When they do, there's a fundamental problem--I had this problem in one of my other lives--proving you are a Métis. Take a good look at me. I don't have a card, but I could prove within two hours that I am Métis. That's going to be a real problem, Mr. Minister, and I know we have a lot in Saskatchewan who agree on this one.

    You mentioned partnering. If two people are living together, a veteran and his wife, a war bride, and the veteran passes away, doesn't it make sense, if two people require the VIP, that the one person certainly requires it for a lot longer than a year? The other point is this. What about considering partnering with the individual provinces? Let me just briefly explain that to you. If a spouse is left and they own their own home, in order for her to provide the services of cutting the grass, windows, whatever, she would have to hire someone or move and leave her home. In the end, in cooperation with the province, it would be cheaper to have that service given to her with the cooperation of Veteran Affairs. If you shared the cost 50-50 with the provinces, the spouse would still be in her own home. I offer that up for consideration only.

    I believe the biggest problem out there, and certainly I think it's across Canada, is not allowing the VIP program longer than the one year. Second, if the veteran has died and the spouse is still living at home, for whatever precious years she may have left she should get the VIP. That would be one of the noblest things the Department of Veterans Affairs could do. Our number one issue is medical, but from a social point of view, that's the number one thing we could do to bring honour to these people.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: That's an interesting proposal, and certainly we will consider it. This is one of the six or seven priority issues that the veterans organizations have discussed with us, and we're in the midst of this very discussion. I can only share with you a sense of optimism with regard to resolving most of these, including this one. We agree that this is one of the priority issues we have to address.

    While I have a minute, Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to put on the record that the Department of Canadian Heritage is the one in charge of the museum. They're in charge of the National War Memorial.

    On the Métis issue, I have made it clear to the organizations with which I have spoken that we are prepared to check names they may have, and Métis veterans with individual concerns that they have not received the benefits due to them should contact the department, so that we can verify the records.

[Translation]

    Le président: Mr. Plamondon, you have five minutes.

    Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you Mr. Chairman.

    There have been times when you have made a speech in the House and opposition parties have had a few minutes to respond. On three occasions, I have had the opportunity to talk about veterans, more specifically about the Royal Canadian Legion and its branches that are having financial problems and that are fighting to survive.

    In my riding, in Sorel-Tracy, there is a branch of the Royal Canadian Legion—Branch 117, I believe—that is struggling to make ends meet, to say open. They have a building. Last year, I organized a spaghetti dinner and auction. I raised $2,000 so the branch could pay its taxes. I am part of the golf committee. We organize a little golf tournament to raise money, but this branch is always broke. It receives no support from the Department of Veterans Affairs to maintain it's facilities, which give veterans some presence and remind the younger generation, and everyone, that people fought for our freedom and peace. Veterans' comments carry a great deal of clout during the week of Remembrance Day. We watch veterans march in parades wearing their uniforms and gathering in their halls. It seems to me that if we allowed these physical spaces to disappear, it would contradict the solemn vows we always make in tribute to veterans.

    Mr. Minister, I believe we must provide money for branches of the Royal Canadian Legion that are having financial problems, or to all branches, based on the number of members they have. I do not know what formula we should use, but we must provide them with some financial support.

    Five thousand dollars a year would considered be a fortune for the Sorel-Tracy branch. Together with revenues from their small bar, it would cover most of their bills for taxes, lighting and telephone. There are a lot of meetings. Every Saturday night, there is a small event. If veterans lost this, they would loose their meeting place and that would be terrible.

    Have you thought about the possibility of asking for money from Treasury Board, or of doing some assessment of the need to keep all of these facilities open in each region where they exist and of providing them with financial support?

º  (1640)  

[English]

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: The question raised is a very important one, and I identify with the sentiments you have raised. I would like to indicate that my recollection of the history of legions and legion branches in the country is that facilities were built by the air force, provincial governments, community groups, in particular the veterans themselves, and in 1995 the department offered a $9,000 grant to the Royal Canadian Legion, through their Dominion Command, in an effort to assist them, because we believed they in fact had been servicing the veterans. That offer of a $9,000 grant on a yearly basis was declined by the Royal Canadian Legion in its wish to ensure that it is independent of the government in its many activities. Regrettably, there is no mandate for the department at this time, nor do we have funding in the fiscal framework, but I will take note of your submission, as those of others in the past. As you can appreciate, as we address the many other priorities, this has become a consideration. So we will consult with the various veterans organizations.

[Translation]

    Mr. Louis Plamondon: Thank you.

    You said that no money had been set aside, but I know that there are documents that detail budgets for publicity campaigns. Could we not take some of this money, get the Legion to do some of this work itself, and receive the money for it?

    I am referring specifically to this money that I call this hoo-ha money, that is spent on glossy laminated flyers that are distributed on Remembrance Day. Maybe there could be less spent on this. If a branch of the Royal Canadian Legion organized something for Remembrance Day, then they could earn $3,000. The branches could use this money to make ends meet.

    I am not talking about handing out $100 million, but of being more judicious in the use of money for publicity campaigns by allowing branches of the Legion to benefit from it. It is a suggestion that I am making to you. I thank you for listening. I hope that there will be some thought given to helping branches of the Royal Canadian Legion.

    Thank you.

º  (1645)  

[English]

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: I indicated in my opening remarks that I look for insight, and this is certainly one of the insights I heard. With the new advertising program approach by the government, no group is excluded from applying. Perhaps what we can do as part of the program is ask the Royal Canadian Legion if they would consider applying directly under the advertising sponsorship program for projects they feel will fulfil the criteria of that particular program, which is under Public Works Canada. This is one of the insights I feel is very useful today, and I will advise the legions too.

    The Chair: Thank you, Minister.

    We go to Mr. Grose.

    Mr. Ivan Grose (Oshawa, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I'd like to act as something of a spokesman for the Royal Canadian Legion. I'm a regular member and past president of a legion branch. What Mr. Plamandon says is absolutely correct, the Legion is losing many branches each year, especially in the smaller centres. In my city we have the second largest legion in Canada. I was charter president of a new one. There were always some dissenters who didn't like this huge legion, so they wanted a new branch. I think the Legion considers itself an ombudsman between the veterans and the government. That's why they, I think, would be averse to accepting any money from the government. I know it's tough keeping a legion going, especially in the small centres, where the veterans are dying off and their sons and daughters should keep the thing going, because they're eligible to be regular members now, but they just don't show the enthusiasm. I don't think, even if the government offered money, it would be accepted by the legions. It's a sad situation. I'm a member the RCAF Association. The same thing is happening there. They're closing because their members are falling off. And they've decided to let themselves die. They're not going after the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of the members. They're just going to go out of existence. It's a tough situation, but that's my experience with it. I hope that's of some help.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    The Chair: Mrs. Wayne.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I agree with Mr. Bailey with regard to the spouses. One year for them after their husband, who was a veteran, passes away I don't feel is enough. I feel they should be looked after, because they're old, they're seniors, there's no way they can look after themselves. It's a different thing if they decide to remarry or something like that, but a spouse of a veteran having one year where we look after them is not what that veteran would want, I can tell you that. So I agree with Mr. Bailey on that subject, and I hope we're able to look at that and do something with it.

    I read an article in the paper in the past couple of weeks about depleted uranium. Depleted uranium was in the bombs of the U.S.A. And our men and women who were over in the Second World War were subjected to that depleted uranium, and I'm wondering if those people who have become ill from that have been looked after and receive some kind of assistance, pensions, and what have you.

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: As I said, when a veteran develops a disability related to their military service, the veteran is entitled to apply for benefits.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I realize that, but I guess there are times when they're told it doesn't have anything to do with their being a veteran or a war. A veteran came to me whose hearing is gone. He said this came because he was on a ship. Another one just came to me in the past month. I've written, and I think you may have that letter. He's very ill because of being aboard the ship. He was in the navy, I think for eight years, and they had to fry the food, and what they fed him bothered him. He now has a stomach problem and a hearing problem. He has hearing aids in both ears because of their shooting the guns when they were out on practice. He was denied any kind of assistance.

º  (1650)  

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: I will ask the deputy to comment, but before I do, I would like to indicate that our approach is to receive all the medical information, all the medical history, what is medical evidence by definition, get that all together, including an audiogram, and hopefully, following that, we come to a conclusion that the disability is related to when they were in the military service.

    Mr. Larry Murray: In relation to depleted uranium as a causal factor in people who are unwell--they go away well, they come back unwell--we don't actually need a direct cause. In other words, we don't need to know it was caused by whatever. The benefit of the doubt goes to the veteran. We just need to be assured that whatever happened in the special duty area in cases such as this is related. A number of people who are receiving disability pensions and health care from us still are really struggling to understand what happened to them, and the depleted uranium is considered by many to be part of the answer to that. We have independently, as has DND, provided funding resource support to enable anyone who wishes to have testing done by two independent laboratories to determine whether they do or don't have elevated levels of depleted uranium.To the best of my knowledge--and I'd ask others to confirm this--we haven't found anyone who has had higher than normal levels of depleted uranium. The other reality--and all our hearts go out to the people involved--is that there is no medical evidence that depleted uranium is actually the causal factor in this, even among American service people who, through shell explosions, have actually been affected. It's very difficult for everybody, but for any member of the Canadian Forces who thinks they have been exposed to depleted uranium and are concerned about it, there is, either through ourselves or DND, free medical testing in two independent labs.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Thank you, Larry.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mrs. Wayne.

    Before we leave I'd like to ask a couple of questions. On the VIP program Mr. Bailey and Mrs. Wayne were talking about being extended to the spouses for, I guess, an indefinite period, has there been any analysis of how much it would cost the department? Is it prohibitive, or do you think it could be done? Has anybody looked at that?

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: Cost analysis is always important, because it is part of good governance. I do not have the exact figure at this point, but certainly, this is taken into account. The idea is how we can be creative in our approach, so that cost is not the underlying factor in saying no. In other words, how can we deliver the benefits by looking at all these priorities, so that at the end of the day, we can deliver them, still maintaining fiscal prudence?

    Mr. Larry Murray: We do have scenarios, and we can share numbers with the committee. We have looked into this, and there's no reason we couldn't follow up. I think, if you started it today, it's $43 million to provide the home care aspects of VIP to widows over a four- or five-year period. It's about $4.5 million a year, and the numbers increase by about 2,000 people a year. We would be happy, either in a letter back to the chair or at your upcoming meeting in Charlottetown, to provide that kind of detail to you. There's nothing sensitive in it. We've shared it and discussed it with veterans organizations.

º  (1655)  

    The Chair: Is that a doable number? I don't know if it is or not.

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: Let us put it this way, Mr. Chair: because we are still pursuing it, I think doability is still there.

    The Chair: Good.

    Before I became chair, my big deal here was the hearing problems and the time it took to get them solved. I had a run-in with the chair of that particular Veterans Review and Appeal Board. I wonder if anything has been done to upgrade that. Are we moving along a little more quickly than we were before? Maybe you could just give the committee an update, because I think it's a problem with everybody.

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: Reports indicate that 25% of the hearing loss claims are turned down at the first application. But with respect to the first application for hearing loss conditions only, the favourable rate is 80.9%, compared to 71.4% for first applications overall, and the unfavourable rate is 18.4%, compared to an overall rate of 26.5%. So certainly, for hearing loss conditions only, 81% is a very good success rate, I would say.

    The Chair: Okay. Thank you for that.

    You talked in your opening remarks, Mr. Minister, about setting up the treatment facility at Ste. Anne's for post-traumatic stress disorder. I know this question may be somewhat premature, but are there any plans to expand that treatment to other centres? That would be one centre for all of Canada. Maybe there should be one in western Canada. Should there not be another centre where some of these people wouldn't have to travel quite so far to get treatment for PTSD?

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: In fact, one of the basic concepts underlying this approach is to develop a network of centres of excellence across the country, so we are looking certainly beyond Ste. Anne's. Active discussions are happening now in Winnipeg, in Quebec, and in London, Ontario.

    Mr. Larry Murray: They generally would be related to our traditional priority access bed sites where there's need, as in Parkwood Hospital in London. There may well be a need right across the country, because there is a real shortage of this expertise. The minister is intending to launch a network across the country.

    The Chair: Perfect.

    You also say you expect to have an agreement shortly with the George Derby Centre; we all had a chance to go to there and to have positive discussions with Broadmead. Does this involve any monetary contributions, or is it just a service agreement?

    Mr. Rey Pagtakhan: The department is committed to paying for the services veterans do need that otherwise would be covered by the provincial government. Consultation is happening with the provincial government, as well as with the regional health authority.

    Mr. Larry Murray: We rarely reach agreements without additional resources, and for the George Derby Centre, based on what you saw, in order for them to continue to meet the services veterans deserve at a standard across the country, it will be about another $2.5 million that the government will be putting in.

»  (1700)  

    The Chair: Excellent.

    What about Broadmead?

    Mr. Larry Murray: The discussions are ongoing. We think we're very close. We thought we were very close a few times, and I think we will get there. Obviously, there are other players involved, the health regions and that sort of thing, but hopefully, within the next few weeks to a month we should be there with them as well.

    The Chair: You're working closely with the Legion, it says in your opening remarks “to further expand appropriate standards of care and develop a monitoring system that would allow for independent surveyors to conduct assessments on the level of care provided to veterans in smaller facilities across the country.” Who are going to be doing these if you reach an agreement with the Legion and maybe some of the other organizations?

    Mr. Larry Murray: As you're well aware, the Legion and veterans organizations were very concerned, as with the question we got from one of the members today, about standards across the country. So we worked with the Canadian Council of Health Services Accreditation to ensure that all the major priority access bed sites are accredited, and 96% of them now are. As the minister said, we've added 10 additional outcome areas in that accreditation process. So we're very comfortable. In fact, the satisfaction rate in the last survey there is about 94%.

    A challenge for us has been the smaller facilities across the country, the community beds where veterans are. We did not have the horse power to do that in the same manner we do the priority access bed sites, so we consulted with veterans organizations. They've come forward with 50 volunteers from within the Legion. We're paying for their training with the Canadian Counsel of Health Services Accreditation, and they will go into the smaller facilities across the country. They're not looking at individual veterans, they're doing an assessment of the status of a particular facility relative to similar standards. I don't know that we've hammered out the accreditation as for, let's say, the Camp Hill Hospital in Halifax, but our intent is to ensure that we also have a presence and some comfort that in the smaller facilities across the country, where many veterans are, there's a standard of care that is comparable.

    The Chair: Are you going to be working out of the Legion or out of Veterans Affairs offices?

    Mr. Larry Murray: They will be working on our behalf, making reports to us, but they are volunteers from the Royal Canadian Legion. In fact, some of you know Jim Rycroft, and he is working with our people to pilot this project for us. So it's very definitely a partnership arrangement, and we expect we'll get very objective input from them.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    We want to thank you, Mr. Minister and everyone with you, for attending this afternoon. It's been enlightening. We appreciate your being here.

    [Proceedings continue in camera]