CIMM Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, February 11, 2003

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1335

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.))

Ms. Gerry Mills (Halifax Immigrant Learning Centre)

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1340

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1345

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Dr. Linda Carvery (Council Member, Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women)

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1350

Ms. Stella Lord (Policy and Research Officer, Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women)

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1355

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1400

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Ms. Barbara Miller (Senior Manager, Newcomers Centre, YMCA of Greater Halifax/Dartmouth)

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1405

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1410

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1415

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Ms. Theresa Sabourin (Organizer, Canadian Federation of Students)

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1420

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.)

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian Alliance)

Ms. Theresa Sabourin

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1425

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Theresa Sabourin

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Theresa Sabourin

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy

Ms. Barbara Miller

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1430

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Mr. Yvon Charbonneau

Ms. Barbara Miller

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1435

Mr. Yvon Charbonneau

Ms. Barbara Miller

Mr. Yvon Charbonneau

Ms. Barbara Miller

Mr. Yvon Charbonneau

Ms. Barbara Miller

Mr. Yvon Charbonneau

Ms. Barbara Miller

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Ms. Stella Lord

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ)

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1440

Ms. Barbara Miller

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NDP)

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1445

Ms. Gerry Mills

Mr. Peter Stoffer

Ms. Gerry Mills

Mr. Peter Stoffer

Ms. Gerry Mills

Mr. Peter Stoffer

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1450

Ms. Gerry Mills

Mr. Peter Stoffer

Ms. Gerry Mills

Mr. Peter Stoffer

Ms. Gerry Mills

Mr. Peter Stoffer

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

Mr. Peter Stoffer

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard)

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration

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NUMBER 024

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Tuesday, February 11, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[English]

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.)): I welcome you to the standing committee. We very much appreciate your taking time and making the effort to come out to share with us your views and your concerns about these programs and practices.

    I think the fundamental exercise in democracy is important here. We have an opportunity to come to Atlantic Canada to listen to those who are on the ground working with people and trying to help as much as they can. Your role is a daunting one at times, and we certainly understand that, but we very much appreciate the role you play in the communities and the things you do to make our communities better.

    With that, I would welcome you to the committee and ask whoever would like to start the presentation to go ahead.

    Ms. Gerry Mills (Halifax Immigrant Learning Centre): Good afternoon. My name is Gerry Mills. I'm the executive director of the Halifax Immigrant Learning Centre, one of the language training deliverers here in Nova Scotia.

    I'd like to thank the standing committee for allowing me the opportunity to address its members this afternoon.

    To save time, I'm going to skip over some of the good points I've written down here, and I'd like to jump to the concerns—although the good points are sandwiching the concerns. What I'd really like to focus on is settlements, and in particular language training, which despite the dollars that go into it is often the invisible, unglamorous player in settlements.

    My comments are mostly concerns, but this afternoon is a unique opportunity for us to share them with you, so I hope you'll bear with me.

    First of all, I'd like to explain what funding reductions have meant to language trainers here in Nova Scotia. As I'm sure my colleagues who've spoken before me have mentioned, for the past five years in Nova Scotia we've had a 10% funding cut each year, and we're expecting yet another one next year.

    We've used every strategy we can to implement reductions in funding. Quite simply, we do not know how we can continue to provide service with that further cut next year.

    I don't have the numbers for this year, but certainly until last year at the Halifax Immigrant Learning Centre the number of newcomers receiving service was not down. In fact, each year the numbers were up, which meant we were doing progressively more work with progressively more newcomers for increasingly less money.

    Two question emerge from that. One is, how can we do that? The simple answer is that like all other immigrant-serving agencies in Nova Scotia, we rise to the challenge as best we can. But we are not providing the language training that is needed in this community, and newcomers are being ignored.

    Second, how can this possibly be, considering that the number of immigrants into Nova Scotia has not reduced? I'm not sure I have a definitive answer for you. However, what we are seeing, as I'm sure my other settlement colleagues have told you, is people with increased and special needs. Reduced funding has had and continues to have massive impacts on the immigrant service sector here, and subsequently on the newcomers.

    I was very interested to read the interprovincial report card that formed part of the paper prepared for the standing committee on immigration settlement programs. It contained a table describing the level of satisfaction with the language services in each province. I was really concerned but not surprised to see in that table that Nova Scotia was towards the bottom, with a 47% and a D rating. The only grade below that was an F, a failure.

    However, when we now go to the same report and look at the funding allocated to language training in Nova Scotia, we may see some explanation. If we exclude Nova Scotia and look at the rest of the country, in each province the percentage of CIC settlement funding allocated to language training ranges from 60% to 80%, with the average being almost 72%.

    In Nova Scotia the percentage of the settlement funding allocated to language training is 47%. That is 25% below the average and 13% below the next lowest, which incidentally is Manitoba, whose provincial government contributes to language training.

    I know you'll be aware that these are not just statistic. This means that language training in Nova Scotia is in very serious straits, and that newcomers are bearing the consequences.

    One of CIC's objectives outlined in the performance report of 2002 is to provide “consistent delivery of integration services across Canada”. As language training deliverers in Nova Scotia, we can't do this when our allocation is so drastically below all other provinces.

    I'm uncomfortably aware that any realignment and increase in language training funding would mean a decrease to ISAP and Host in Nova Scotia. My colleagues working in ISAP and Host are also struggling to meet the challenges of delivering effective and appropriate programming, and any reduction in funding would have serious outcomes for their programs. They are doing some extraordinary work and they need the funding to do it. There's no alternative source of funding in Nova Scotia to deliver these programs. However, under the current conditions, the sad reality is that as language trainers we cannot provide a service consistent with the rest of the country right now.

    Secondly, I'd like to bring your attention to the issue of the three-year eligibility for accessing language training. The minute a newcomer begins language training, the clock begins to tick. If a person discontinues language training of necessity—for financial or health issues, pregnancy, post-traumatic stress—the clock continues to tick. A person could have one week of training, leave for any of the reasons above, and then be unable to return to increase his or her language skills.

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    Minister Coderre has said that he is committed to working with partners to help immigrants become full participants in Canadian society. This is difficult for us. Why would we penalize a person who left language school to support his family and now wants to return to improve his language skills? Why would we want the woman who has been pregnant and had a child to be penalized and now not be able to access language training?

    There are no other options for language training in Nova Scotia. Perhaps in other provinces it's possible to go to municipally or provincially funded programs. There are none here.

    This policy effectively discriminates against women, mothers, anybody with a learning disability, refugees, people with little formal education, and people who are sick. While I recognize that there are limited funds and it's not possible for newcomers to be in language training for years and years, the new iCAMS system would allow us the capability of tracking actual hours spent in training. Would this not be a more equitable way of determining eligibility?

    Thirdly, you've requested some input on the functioning of the federal funding programs. Certainly in Nova Scotia LINC is a classroom-based delivery system. For many people this works, and we encourage people to stay in language training for as long as they can. Classrooms, however, do not have the monopoly on learning sites. There are others in the community, the workplace, and the volunteer sector.

    For some newcomers, the classroom has not been a positive learning environment, and for some this formal mode of learning just doesn't work. Learning takes place for adults when there are autonomy, relevance, and immediacy. For some newcomers, indeed many newcomers, the classroom is the only environment where they speak English. We need to explore alternative, meaningful learning sites where newcomers have the opportunity to interact and use their new language.

    I'd like to see Citizenship and Immigration review LINC and research and develop some alternative models that take into account the diversity of the newcomers, their needs, and their learning styles. I think classrooms are appropriate for some. But perhaps we should be investigating models where people work or volunteer in the community and receive significant language training at the same time.

    The new LINC childminding requirements have been an interesting and challenging addition to our world recently. I'd like to highlight a few of the requirements that are causing us great anxiety. First of all, grandparents, who have been brought over often to care for the children, can no longer access LINC childminding services, which means that they are effectively excluded from language training. A cornerstone of Canada's immigration policy is family reunification. We should be respecting the culture of our newcomers in their desire to have their children cared for by grandparents and supporting the substantial contributions grandparents make in family life, in the community, and indeed in building the cultural communities we need to retain newcomers in the smaller provinces. Once again there are no other options for language training in Nova Scotia. These policies may be effective elsewhere, but they neither reflect nor respond to our reality.

    The new childminding policies also require us to physically separate infants from older children in the childminding centre. They require us to provide alternative space and a separate childminder for any children under the age of 17 months. Not for any reason are we allowed to bring these children together. Can you imagine how this plays out in the childminding centre? Siblings, who don't understand any English and who are anxious, indeed terrified, in those first few days, could have each other for comfort and security, but they are not allowed to interact. Parents, normally mothers, who often spend their first few days in the childminding centre getting their children comfortable, are unable to comfort both their children at the same time because the children are in separate physical spaces. If we have one 16 month old and six toddlers, the requirements say we must have one childminder looking after one child and one childminder looking after six. The childminders are not allowed to interact at any time, nor to support or assist each other. Not only does it go against all we try to create for anxious mothers and children and is it completely illogical, but it's insensitive, cruel, distressing, and unsafe. I would request that these requirements are immediately reconsidered.

    A new requirement is also for parents to provide up-to-date vaccination records for their children who they wish to go to the LINC childminding centre before the parents can go to language school. This is not even a provincial requirement for registered day cares in Nova Scotia. I'm sure you'll appreciate that for some, especially our most vulnerable newcomers, it's an impossible request. Indeed, it's one over which our local public health officials are just scratching their heads as to how to respond. Once again the policy made elsewhere doesn't work here.

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    All these requirements are burdening agencies and, in some cases, delaying newcomers from accessing language training. I'm really happy to see some commitment from CIC to working on improving the quality of childminding through LINC, but we have to be realistic, flexible, and compassionate, and most of all, while maintaining standards and safety, we have to place the needs of the child and the newcomer above all else.

    Lastly, one of the serious issues we face in Nova Scotia is our inability to access any significant alternative or additional funding to help us settle and integrate newcomers, and from HRDC in particular. On December 10, 2002, in Ottawa, Minister Stewart said, “HRDC is committed to working with partners...to help remove barriers faced by skilled immigrants trying to work in occupations in which they have been trained.” Minister Coderre said, “There has been a lot of talk about brain drain, now it's time to address brain waste.”

    In almost every other province, HRDC provides funding to support initiatives that assist newcomers in accessing the labour market and address this brain waste. HRDC is a federal department whose mandate is to enable all Canadians to participate fully in the workplace and the community. We cannot welcome and retain newcomers in Nova Scotia when we can't offer them support to access the labour market.

    In my years working in this sector, I've seen many people leave Nova Scotia for the larger centres. Nobody wants to leave. They leave reluctantly, they leave despondently, but they leave to look for a job. There are jobs here in Nova Scotia, and certainly here in HRM, but newcomers need help to find work.

    We've tried to access funding from HRDC to help newcomers, both for employment-related language training and labour access programs, but newcomers are in a catch-22 situation. To access HRDC funding in Nova Scotia, you must be EI eligible. If you are EI eligible, you must have had a job. Newcomers have never had a job, and they can't get the support they need to get one because they've never had a job. It's a circle of frustration, illogic, and discrimination. It's an issue that goes to the very core of attraction and retention of newcomers to this province.

    Minister Coderre said, “We need to develop flexible approaches to attract immigrants to smaller centres.” That flexibility needs to cross federal departments. We are already losing out and are going to continue to lose out on the benefits of newcomers unless we have the means to set up the programs and supports to attract people here and to assist them when they come to access the labour market.

    In conclusion, I'd like to thank the standing committee again for this opportunity to share some of my thoughts and concerns. Nova Scotia is right now on the cusp of real opportunity in terms of immigration. Like all areas of the country, we need immigrants in this province, but the provincial government needs to find an appropriate place for immigration and allocate some real and substantial resources to it. Only when there is that true commitment in attracting, supporting, and retaining immigrants are we going to be successful and reap the benefits that other provinces have. This is a distinct and vital area of responsibility that can contribute significantly to the future prosperity, both in economic and in social terms, of this province. This is not an add-on job. Immigration and immigrants demand, require, and deserve more.

    As settlement service deliverers, we are committed to working with both the provincial and the federal government to ensure that Nova Scotia becomes the final destination of more newcomers. The resources need to be dedicated, and we need to develop our own down-home responses that work for us.

    Thank you.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): Thank you, Ms. Mills.

    The next group on our list is the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, Linda Carvery.

    Dr. Linda Carvery (Council Member, Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women): Thank you.

    Good afternoon, everyone. As stated, I'm here on behalf of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women, and I'm pleased to present these remarks about immigrant settlement programs in Nova Scotia. With me today is Stella Lord, who will be talking about particular issues of concern for immigrant women.

    I'd like to start off by saying that the mandate of the Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women is to bring forward to government issues of interest and concern to women and to advise government on matters related to the status of women. Since it was formed in 1977, the council has worked with all levels of government, women's groups, and other organizations on a wide range of issues affecting women, issues related to family law, economic security, sexuality, health, education, paid and unpaid work, and family violence.

    The nature of immigration has changed dramatically in the last 25 years. More immigrants face greater challenges in terms of employment, second language acquisition, integration, and cultural adjustment. Nova Scotia has lower levels of immigration than many of the provinces in central and western Canada, but as in other provinces, there's been a shift in immigration patterns over the years. Most immigrants to Nova Scotia now come from Asia, mostly from west-central Asia and the Middle East.

    As Martin Papillon noted in a paper for the Canadian Policy Research Networks, immigration is important for the future of Canada and is one of our biggest assets in terms of both human resources and what he calls cultural capital, a cultural mix that is a source of creativity and innovation. But at the same time, the increasing diversity of the immigrant population presents new challenges for us as a nation and for immigrants themselves. This is especially true in relation to the provision of immigrant settlement services in general but in particular in relation to serving the needs of women.

    Expectations and the use of immigration consultants: increased challenges related to settlement by new immigrants may also be linked to an increased reliance on immigrant consultants in some countries of immigration where communities rely largely on private consultants in the country of origin to facilitate the immigration process. We are informed that these consultants do not always provide realistic advice to the prospective immigrants about their prospects, the resources they need, or what they might expect when they arrive in Canada. We recommend that there be a certification process and more monitoring of private immigration consultants abroad to ensure that they are providing accurate information and advice.

    Nova Scotia and immigrant settlement services: Nova Scotia wants to attract and retain more immigrants, but there are difficulties in doing so, in part because of the low level of settlement services. New arrivals often face more challenges than in the past, yet there is less money for settlement support in Nova Scotia. This is because there are problems with the overall scope of settlement services, with the amount of money provided by the federal government for settlement, and with the current funding formula, which we believe is flawed.

    The allocation for settlement services is based on previous immigration levels, using a three-year rolling average formula. Now, since Nova Scotia's immigration levels have declined in recent years, the funding to Nova Scotia agencies has declined by 10% each year for the last few years. This ends up being a chicken and egg situation. If you cannot offer the services, immigrants are reluctant to come or unable to settle. In these circumstances the word gets back to the countries of immigration and others interested in immigration are likely to look for other locations.

    Under the current formula the only way resources could increase would be through higher immigrant intake, but without more settlement resources there would be increasing difficulties for settlement agencies. This would be a disservice to immigrants. We recommend an immediate freeze on any further reductions to settlement funding and recommend consultations with the province and the settlement agencies to develop a more equitable formula for provinces with lower than average immigration.

    Ms. Lord will continue on.

    Thank you.

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    Ms. Stella Lord (Policy and Research Officer, Nova Scotia Advisory Council on the Status of Women): I just want to address some particular concerns of women from the point of view of the advisory council. Immigrant women face many common challenges when they arrive in Canada, such as the effects of racism, language acquisition, and recognition of foreign credentials. The issue of the provision of settlement services is of concern in relation to these issues, but it is also of concern in relation to the particular concerns facing women.

    Immigrant women are not a homogeneous group, and conditions and adjustment challenges vary depending on the circumstances of the immigrant herself, her family, her cultural background, and her education and skills. Women who are immigrants as individuals or as dependent family members often face challenges and difficulties in terms of their employment or language acquisition. The provision of services often does not take into account the difficulties of meeting language learning time lines--which Ms. Mills addressed--created by women's caregiving responsibilities. Those who arrive as sponsored family class immigrants or as sponsored refugees can be in a particularly vulnerable position because of their financial dependency on others.

    Despite these differences in conditions and circumstances of immigrants, however, there is often not enough support for female immigrants and their families. Cultural adjustment, language training, and employment services are important, if currently inadequate, components of settlement services, but more needs to be done in the areas of access to affordable housing and overall support for women with children.

    The issue of financial dependency came up a lot when I was trying to do some research on this. Women who come as dependants, so-called independent family class immigrants or sponsored family class immigrants, often find they are more financially dependent on their spouse after they immigrate because they have come to Canada in the context of decisions based on improving the economic viability of the family or of opportunities for their husbands rather than necessarily for themselves.

    Women with children who were financially dependent on their husbands before arrival may find that the financial situation of the family has changed for the worse rather than for the better after coming to Canada because their spouse faces unforeseen problems finding employment or establishing a business. In some cases, when the money runs out, the husband must return to the country of origin to earn money, leaving his wife and children to cope as best they can, and I have heard many stories of this happening in Halifax. We understand that in some cultures, if there is an older male child present, he will be made responsible for family decisions, including finances.

    For all of these reasons, women coming as dependants may face more settlement challenges than their spouses in terms of finding viable employment, cultural adjustment, and language acquisition. This situation can be made worse if the financial situation of the family is strained. Recent research conducted by MISA, for example, demonstrated that women in particular may be especially vulnerable to social isolation and various forms of abuse, yet there are no special services for them.

    This is only one of many other specific challenges women face related to settlement and cultural adjustment. We recommend that there should be adequate support and counselling services that go beyond language acquisition and that are both culturally and gender-sensitive to help women cope in these situations.

    There's the issue of employment. Whether women come as independent immigrants, as dependent family members, or as sponsored immigrants, they and their families face challenges related to employment and income. In some cases the economic circumstances of immigrants can be fragile, and they may move back to the country of origin to earn money temporarily, move back permanently, or move on to other locations in Canada in the hope that things might be better there. For those immigrants who enter under the business class and intend to establish businesses here, there are difficulties in doing so, in part because of bureaucratic and cultural challenges here, but also because the quality of advice many immigrants receive in the country of origin and once they arrive may be questionable.

    The recognition of foreign credentials has been flagged as an important issue that needs to be addressed if immigrants are to create a decent life in Canada, but new immigrants also need more opportunities to develop and translate their skills in the context of the Canadian labour market. We understand, however, that very little beyond employment counselling and job search skills is provided to help immigrants find employment under the settlement program and that HRDC has not been forthcoming with other kinds of employment development services immigrants need.

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    We recommend that the federal and provincial governments take immediate action on the issue of recognizing foreign credentials; that business-class immigrants be provided with realistic and accurate advice about establishing businesses in Canada; and that the Canadian government, through HRDC, take more responsibility for helping immigrants translate and develop their skills into the Canadian labour market context and gain on-the-job experience in Canada.

    On the issue of language acquisition and cultural adjustment, women are now eligible for second-language learning, whether they come as independent immigrants, as family members, or as sponsored family class immigrants. However, the time lines for the provision of language training do not take into account women's caregiving responsibilities.

    While second language acquisition is an important part of cultural adjustment, cultural adjustment must be seen as broader than second language acquisition. Many language schools try to address the specific cultural and gender issues faced by women, but they often meet bureaucratic and funding barriers. We've heard some of those today.

    We recently heard, for example, of a language school in Bedford that was forced to close because of funding difficulties. This language school brought together immigrant women with preschool children, mostly from Middle Eastern countries, in a safe environment of mutual support and learning. Without this support service, many of these women now face social isolation and issues related to cultural integration.

    As mothers, for example, they often find it difficult to communicate with the schools attended by their children. In some instances they have become vulnerable to financial, psychological, or even physical abuse, which they are reluctant, for cultural among other reasons, to bring to the attention of the Canadian authorities.

    We recommend that cultural and gender-specific issues faced by immigrant women be taken into account in the funding and delivery of settlement services in Canada.

    As for women newcomers who are outside the immigration system, finally, we wish to bring to your attention the issues and concerns of those who fall outside the official immigration process, i.e., non-sponsored refugees and wives of students coming to Canada to study. These women face situations similar to those discussed above, but because they're not officially immigrants there are limited or no support services available. Nevertheless, non-sponsored immigrants and students who come on work or student visas often stay in Canada for long periods or, in the case of students, may want to return as immigrants later.

    If Canada is in the business of attracting immigrants and really wants to foster integration and cultural adjustment, it makes sense to include this population inside a net of services for newcomers, whatever their official status.

    We recommend that consideration be given to broadening the scope of immigrant settlement services to include provision of services for all newcomers, including refugees and foreign students.

    Thank you.

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    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): Thank you very much, Ms. Lord.

    The next witness is from the YMCA of Halifax and Dartmouth. Welcome, Barbara Miller. You have the floor.

    Ms. Barbara Miller (Senior Manager, Newcomers Centre, YMCA of Greater Halifax/Dartmouth): Thank you very much.

    I'm pleased to be here this afternoon to talk to you about our programs at the YMCA. I want to tell you a story and ask for your assistance in giving us a happy ending to this story.

    The YMCA of Greater Halifax/Dartmouth has a long and proud history of supporting the healthy development of individuals, families, and communities. In 2003, this YMCA celebrates its 150th anniversary. The Y continues to deliver on its mission to balance spirit, mind, and body through the provision of diverse services to more than 40,000 people across the Halifax Regional Municipality and throughout rural Nova Scotia.

    Current YMCA programs include child care, health and wellness memberships, employment and education, residence and day camping, services to newcomers, and youth leadership development.

    The YMCA has always served youth participants, and during the last decade the YMCA has focused on the support of immigrant youth as a core program. Why is this YMCA so dedicated to creating and utilizing resources for and with youth, including those who are newcomers in our country? It's because the YMCA recognizes youth as community leaders and wishes to foster their development.

    Through our work with children and youth, the YMCA realizes that, in general, youth are seen as problems to be managed rather than resources to be empowered. Recently, a YMCA youth group, including several newcomers aged 15 to 19 years, was asked to create message walls. These walls compare the way youth believe society sees them to how youth want to be seen by society.

    Imagine watching as youth write on the wall, in silence, all the words and labels they believe describe society's views of them as a group. The feeling is tense, heavy, discouraging, and defiant as youth scribe words like lazy, violent, irresponsible, drug addicts, only interested in sex, rude, dumb, ugly, carry guns and knives, thieves, disrespectful, get away with everything, not accountable, useless, and criminals.

    Then just before asking the youth to step across to the empty canvas of the other wall, YMCA staff took the time to help shift the youths' perspective, focus their potential, and stimulate their imaginations about what they want the world to know about them. They wrote: caring, sensitive, smart, enthusiastic, calm, reliable, fun, serious, a work-in-progress, intelligent, creative, passionate, hard-working, able to contribute, sense of purpose, responsible, and making smart choices.

    Now imagine standing between the two walls alone. Even as an adult, one can see the incredible hope and potential on one side and the enormous weight and negative expectations on the other side. Such is the reality of what our youth carry with them daily.

    YMCA Canada and YMCA U.S.A. have partnered with the Search Institute of Chicago to conduct research and develop practical tools and training to enhance youth development. One such tool is the developmental assets, a set of 40 universal building blocks that provide the foundation for individual children and youth to thrive. These are divided into internal and external assets. The external ones include such simple things as support, empowerment, boundaries and expectations, and constructive use of time. The internal ones include commitment to learning, positive values, social competencies, and positive identity.

    Peter Benson, president of the Search Institute, points out that with youth we tend to frame the public image around big problems and issues like teen pregnancy, marijuana use, violence, and school dropouts. So the Search Institute has crafted the positive asset language as a support for children and youth and, in an effort to weave some threads among all people in a community, reminding them of at least one thing they have in common: wanting the best for their kids.

    All families, whether Canadian, Arabic, Chinese, Korean, or Latin American, to name only a few origins, want their kids to receive support, caring, empowerment, etc. Focusing on the developmental assets and the positive language helps to focus our sense of community. Keep this in mind as we move back to the two message walls created by our youth.

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    It is important to note that immigrant children and youth have another layer of labels and challenges on them that presents obstacles to successful settlement. Hovering over their heads, like a ceiling, are things like the following.

    There is the loss of friends and extended family who were left behind in the country of origin. They feel a lack of control--they've had no choice about the move to Canada; their parents made that decision. There are language differences, cultural differences, and a lack of understanding about the Canadian way of doing things. There's difficulty making new friends and building support networks; peer pressure; and exposure to racist, discriminatory, and insensitive comments and behaviours.

    Newcomer students are targets for bullies and often receive thoughtless, hurtful remarks about the way they look, eat, smell, behave, or speak. They have academic pressure at school. Teachers expect certain behaviours and accomplishments, and there's a lack of familiarity with the Canadian school system. There's academic pressure at home--parents expect their children to do as well in Canada as they did in their country of origin, despite the barriers. There are family problems based on children learning things a certain way in school and parents doing the same things differently at home. Also, teachers are not well trained or supported in how to meet the needs of immigrant youth, but are expected to so in large, busy classrooms.

    Youth are also stressed by the regular trauma of the teen years: physical changes, emotions, self-awareness, self-esteem. In junior and senior high, newcomer students often experience the stress of family and home responsibilities. There is often a role reversal between immigrant parents and youth when the youth speak better English than their parents.

    To help address and begin reframing these issues, the YMCA has provided support for newcomer youth for over 10 years. In 1992 we began to provide educational and recreational programs in summer school, started a Saturday morning homework club, and organized lunchtime peer support in local high schools. We soon realized that we needed to be on site full-time in schools.

    The YMCA currently works in partnership with 17 school sites at the elementary, junior, and senior high levels, operating with funding from Citizenship and Immigration Canada. The purpose is to facilitate the successful settlement of newcomer youth and their families into our local school communities and assist school administrators and staff to create environments that embrace diversity.

    The YMCA operates on the premise that settlement is a two-way street. Newcomers have to be knowledgeable, proactive, and empowered participants in Canadian life, and Canadians need to be welcoming, informed, and sensitive to our changing communities. Our YMCA partnership with schools facilitates this process as we work cooperatively and share our resources, experience, and expertise.

    The methods we employ in researching these objectives include orientation to schools and communities, extra help in academic subjects in collaboration with community and peer volunteers, ongoing awareness-raising in schools on international and diverse issues, mediation and conflict resolution in problem situations, advocacy on behalf of newcomer students and families, liaison between the home and school, and identification or development of cultural resources.

    YMCA school staff also provide a range of activities such as welcoming students, hosting parent meetings, planning and delivering workshops for teachers, assisting in student course selection, homework support, socialization activities, paraprofessional counselling in problem situations, and working with school staff to identify and meet the needs of newcomer youth in schools.

    While this program runs differently in each site, the common goal is the focus on providing practical assistance through these activities. How these objectives are met depends on the individual school situation and its unique needs as well as the creativity of each YMCA staff person.

    The YMCA believes that working with mainstream institutions like schools, while at times difficult, is not only key, but is a necessity in the successful settlement of newcomers to our community. These types of partnerships allow for input from a variety of community sources because they involve and require interaction from a wide base of community members. When voices are heard, especially speaking positive language, barriers come down and attitudes change.

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    YMCA school staff work in schools with the broader community to ensure the issues and needs of newcomer students are considered in all areas of school life. YMCA staff sit on advisory and disciplinary committees and work with school psychologists, social workers, and the police. We are also members of the school board's race relations, cultural understanding, and human rights best practices committee. The YMCA has created and delivered in-service training for school teachers, administrators, police officers, and other community youth agencies. A priority is creating environments where children and youth can safely explore their own potential and leadership roles and supporting them as they develop confidence and skills.

    Making Canadian friends is an ongoing challenge for newcomer youth. Opportunities for greater interaction are supported and built upon through activities that involve shared learning, peer helping, and orientation. Starting at elementary sites, we facilitate awareness raising, education, acceptance, and actions with regard to immigration issues, which will ease the transition for newcomer parents and their children as they move through the school system. We believe this lays the foundation for positive change in communities.

    Where there is a role reversal between newcomer parents and youth, the YMCA works with families as units to help parents understand information and issues to allow them to be decision-makers and to take appropriate action, and to ensure youth are freed from unrealistic expectations.

    While focusing on the positive transitions, the YMCA has also dealt with many crisis situations, especially related to newcomer youth. These youth at risk, or priority youth—defined as youth who lack positive experience in school, family, and peer relationships—need attention and support in many situations and circumstances, including family violence, sexual abuse, pregnancy, alcohol or drug abuse, problems with the law, expulsion or dropping out of school, racism, divorce, fighting, suicide, dating violence, and poverty.

    Supporting youth and families in crisis situations requires a lot of time, care, and trust. Ultimately, however, young people will be more prepared for the challenges of adult life if they feel supported through crises. Often, newcomer youth in crisis situations have been exposed to, or experienced, extreme violence before coming to Canada. Statistics from UNICEF show that, in the last decade, more than two million children have been killed during wars, four million have survived physical mutilation, and more than one million have been orphaned or separated from their families as a result of war. The proportion of civilian war victims has leapt in recent decades from 5% to 90%, and at least half of these are children.

    The YMCA is working with other youth and family agencies to raise awareness of newcomer issues while attempting to seek or create resources to help alleviate crisis situations to move children and families through the crisis, so that they can begin focusing on their lives beyond it. This is extremely hard work, and there is much to be done. With all that the YMCA has done to date, we have only begun to scratch the surface. Newcomers have special needs and special assets. We, as the Canadian community, are responsible for embracing this opportunity and for building strong kids, strong families, and strong communities.

    We encourage and request the expansion and enhancement of resources for the successful settlement of newcomer youth and families. There can be recognition and support for innovative approaches, such as demonstrated by the YMCA and those working in partnership with us. Increased funding will make a huge difference in the lives of newcomers and, in fact, in all of our community.

    Thank you.

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    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): Thanks, Ms. Miller.

    From the Canadian Federation of Students, Theresa Sabourin.

    Ms. Theresa Sabourin (Organizer, Canadian Federation of Students): Thank you very much for the opportunity to present to the standing committee today.

    I would like to address some issues around international students studying and living in Canada, particularly the proposed changes to Citizenship and Immigration Canada's regulations regarding off-campus work permits for international students.

    According to the federal government's own research, immigrants who have previously worked or studied in Canada have the easiest time integrating into the Canadian workforce and prospering in Canadian society. However, significant financial barriers threaten Canada's ability to attract and retain the talented people this country needs to prosper in the future. High and differential tuition fees and regulations preventing international students from earning money while they're in Canada are a barrier discouraging many talented potential students from studying and eventually settling in Canada.

    I'd like to start off by saying the Canadian Federation of Students is pleased by Citizenship and Immigration Canada's commitment to change its policy concerning off-campus work for international students, as outlined in section 198 of the pre-published regulations to the new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

    Canada is currently the only major host country that does not allow international students to work off campus at least part-time during the school year, and full-time during school holidays. This situation is unfair to international students who wish to pursue studies in Canada, and particularly so for qualified students from economically less-advantaged backgrounds who, at present, face significant financial barriers to accessing post-secondary education in this country. Current restrictions on off-campus work put Canada at a disadvantage in attracting international students, and if they are not reformed, they could ultimately deprive our society of the innumerable social, cultural, political, economic, and academic benefits that a growing international student population can bring.

    With these concerns in mind, the Canadian Federation of Students would like to endorse, with some limited qualifications, the “Report on Proposed Guidelines for Off-Campus Work Permits for International Students”, prepared by the Working Group on Off-campus Work for International Students of the Advisory Committee on International Students and Immigration. In particular, the federation supports the working group's recommendations that work permits should be valid for one year and be renewable for each year of study in Canada. For the last year of study in Canada, the work permit should be valid until the end of the validity period of the study permit in order to allow students to work off campus for a period following their graduation.

    Permits should be open; i.e., not be employer-specific.

    Off-campus work permits should allow students to work full-time on holidays and to work during the school term. However, the federation would go further than the working group's suggested limit of 20 hours of permissible work per week during the school year. Instead, we recommend full and equal access to employment for international students through the entire duration of their study permit.

    Eligibility should be limited to post-secondary institutions, authorized by a provincial statute to confer degrees and/or diplomas and/or certificates, which offer programs to students in physical attendance in Canada.

    The federation in principle accepts the working group's recommendations for a process to verify eligibility, but would seek guarantees that the collection of students' personal information from post-secondary institutions be limited exclusively to the basic information required for verification purposes, and acceptable academic standing to continue the program and full-time status. The verification process should not unnecessarily infringe upon international students' rights to privacy.

    On two issues, the federation diverges somewhat from the working group's report. First, the federation disagrees with the working group's recommendation of a two-term waiting period prior to there being eligibility for an off-campus work permit. Such a measure would unfairly discriminate against international students, especially those facing significant initial financial barriers to accessing post-secondary education in Canada. The federation recommends that international students be able to apply for an off-campus work permit at the same time as they apply for their study permit, and that they be eligible to work off campus upon their arrival in Canada for their studies.

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    The federation has additional concerns regarding the working group's recommendation that receipt of Government of Canada scholarships automatically disqualify international students from eligibility for off-campus work permits. It's important that any exclusion from employment eligibility does not prevent students from acquiring sufficient resources to maintain themselves at a reasonable standard of living during their period of study in Canada.

    In conclusion, the Canadian Federation of Students views the report of the Working Group on Off-campus Work for International Students on proposed guidelines for off-campus work permits for international students as a progressive step towards improving Canada's regulations regarding off-campus work permits for international students.

    The federation is pleased to see that Citizenship and Immigration Canada is demonstrating a commitment to bringing Canada's regulations regarding international students and off-campus work in line with contemporary international standards.

    Thank you.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): First of all, I want to say congratulations to all five of you for the excellent presentations and detailed points that give us good reason to reflect upon a lot of the policies and the issues that you face.

    Yvon, you have to leave a little early. Did you have some questions for our groups?

    Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, Lib.): I used to come after Diane, so I will be ready in a couple of minutes.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): I can go to Diane. Okay.

    Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Chairman, I would like to apologize to the chair and to our witnesses. There was a miscommunication about when we were going to reconvene, and Pete and I went off for a private meeting. But we will be reading your briefs very carefully, and we're very much looking forward to having you here.

    There were some questions that I had wanted you to help us with. First of all, with respect to the point that Theresa raised about off-campus permits, I have done quite a bit of work on visa schools and on consultants who assist in bringing foreign students--international students--to Canada. The problem we have, and I know all members of the committee are aware of this, is that sometimes these students are not dealt with in an honest and straightforward manner. They're brought to Canada sometimes to attend education that is below Canadian standards, that does not meet the definition of education, and also then they are used by the sponsoring group, or the sponsoring consultant, I won't say as slave labour, but certainly their labour is abused and misused.

    If off-campus work permits are given wider currency by the government, how would you suggest we can do this in a way that will protect foreign students from the kind of exploitation I've described and that we know is happening, not all the time but certainly enough of the time to be of concern?

    Ms. Theresa Sabourin: First I'd like to say that I think the suggested changes to allow international students to work off campus will in fact go a long way to solving some of those problems. Currently, international students are only allowed to work on campus and not off campus, which means they have a very limited ability to.... First, their work is employer specific, so they don't have the option of finding work in different places. For international students who are having financial difficulties, which is a lot of international students, for the most part they're not eligible for the same sort of student financial assistance as Canadian students and of course can't find work off campus.

    Opening up the regulations in order to allow international students to go out and apply for a job like any other Canadian student and to be covered by the same employment laws in those types of jobs would, I think, probably go some way to solving that problem. Currently, international students have no choice about where they're going to work. If they're going to work, they're going to work at the institution where they're studying, and that's the only option.

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    Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: So they can be just as abused at the institution if it's not, shall we say, a recognized one or one of goodwill, because they could be off campus. That's what you're saying, and that does make some sense.

    Are there any other safeguards you can recommend to make sure that international students are not mistreated with respect to their search for proper employment and their ability to bring in extra income? I'm sure you've heard the horror stories. I've heard them as a member of Parliament, so you know what I'm talking about.

    Ms. Theresa Sabourin: Yes, absolutely.

    Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: I'll just give one example. One of the students who later came and worked in my office as an intern had actually been asked to work on the weekend to help his boss move. Nobody else in the office was asked to do that, but he was. So there are those kinds of things.

    Ms. Theresa Sabourin: Currently, international students have very limited ability to choose where they're going to work, which essentially puts them in a position of having only one option. That's one of the reasons we're very supportive of expanding the regulations to say that international students should have full access to employment opportunities in the same way as Canadian students, so they actually do have options.

    I would have to think about whether I have any other recommendations in terms of specific safeguards. Certainly, international students are probably more vulnerable to those kinds of abuses from employers than domestic students, who are more aware of employment laws and all those kinds of things.

    Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Plus they have parents to go to bat for them and that sort of thing. I think that is an issue.

    I wanted to ask Barbara something too. There is an issue I'm very concerned about, and that is settlement services for children. I think we haven't put the emphasis on children that we need to have.

    You probably know that not only do children need ESL training, a lot of them have real acculturation difficulties and some of them suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome, which gives them additional personal problems. Sometimes the schools still don't have the resources to deal with this, so they don't even try. Could you discuss with the committee the parameters of that issue and what you feel should be done by the federal government, something we can possibly do about it, but also just in general.

    Ms. Barbara Miller: I spoke to this when I was talking about what's happening inside schools primarily and the fact that teachers are expected to be able to deliver programs and services for the children when they're not really trained or equipped to do that. What we have found works really well is to build partnerships across the communities with schools and other agencies, family and child agencies, that are able to come together with different resources so we can serve the needs of this special group of children, newcomer children.

    In terms of what works best, we've tried almost everything in terms of coming together for pulling resources from the federal government, from the provincial government, and from municipalities to try to build partnerships at that political level as well. The resources and the attention to children's needs haven't been, as you said, in the limelight. We've been struggling along for 10 years, trying our best to pull the resources together, and have had quite a bit of success. We are now realizing that this is a model that could be shared in some ways across the country and in different communities.

¸  (1430)  

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): If I might interrupt for just one second, Diane, I think all of you have pointed out some very important concerns everybody on the committee has dealt with in one way or another with different groups. There's absolutely no question that we're short of resources, that the resources are not there to meet the needs, and you've made that extremely clear.

    Number two, we have not taken into consideration the plight many women and children face on a daily basis not only in security of life but in security of social structure because of the limited resources available. They're isolated and they often end up without the support mechanisms that should be there. I thought the whole presentation had a tremendous consistency, whether it was from the YMCA, from the women's organization, or from the students' organization.

    What we as a committee need to do is to very carefully examine those particular issues and convince people that where immigration is occurring in more remote areas--and I think your problem, very clearly, is different from those in Toronto, although there may be many similarities--it leaves the person in total isolation, whereas in Toronto there may be support organizations, support communities, social acceptance, and social support. These do not exist here and do not exist in more remote communities.

    I do thank you for that message. That's what I read as your main message to this committee, that when we start looking at immigration in Canada, there are specific needs in those areas that may not have large groups but where, at the same time, resources, dollars, and all the types of things that can make a difference are being reduced and you're left in a position where it just can't be tolerated any further. That's what I heard from you and that's the message, I think, that was given.

    Yvon.

    Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: Thank you. My question is for Madame Barbara Miller.

    It's about the funding you receive from Citizenship and Immigration Canada. I would like to give you the opportunity to expand on that matter. Could you give us more details about the parameters of the program? Is it a program you are negotiating on a year-by-year basis or for a multi-year period? It is it increasing or decreasing? What's the proportion of your costs that are covered by the grant, and how long has this program been in place?

    Ms. Barbara Miller: The program is funded under the ISAP section of Citizenship and Immigration Canada funding. We've been receiving funding for this program since 1996. For the last three years the funding has been decreasing by 10% a year, and there's no indication that will not happen again next year. The program we operate is fully funded by Citizenship and Immigration Canada, but we are able to draw on resources from other parts of the YMCA and by building partnerships in the community, because those resources from Citizenship and Immigration Canada have been decreasing.

    One of the things that have happened in our program with that decrease is that we started serving 17 schools, and while we're still serving 17 schools, the only way we've been able to do that with the decrease in funding has been by having our staff split between two schools. The numbers of staff have decreased while we've tried to maintain the scope of the service at the same level, and that's been one of the difficulties.

    The fundamental part of our program is about building relationships of trust, and we really work by pulling together whatever is happening in the school environment, helping the teachers to understand the barriers the students are facing and helping the students and the families understand how the Canadian school system works. That's increasingly difficult when we're splitting our staff between two schools, because they have to build two sets of relationships, understand two different school cultures, and still try to get the same amount of work done. The numbers of students--as we've already talked about, all of us on the panel--haven't been decreasing. The funding has been decreasing, but the demand for the work has not.

    Does that answer your question?

¸  (1435)  

    Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: Yes, and how much money are you receiving, for the current year, for example?

    Ms. Barbara Miller: It's about $400,000.

    Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: To your knowledge, is there any other organization receiving money from the department and working in the same area as yours in your province?

    Ms. Barbara Miller: No, not for this purpose.

    Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: You would be the only one.

    Thank you.

    Ms. Barbara Miller: To my knowledge, there isn't another program like this in the country, except for one in the Ottawa-Toronto area.

    Mr. Yvon Charbonneau: To your knowledge, it would be the only one in Canada?

    Ms. Barbara Miller: There is one other. Because we've created this model from scratch, we've tried to look across the country to find who else is doing similar work and what is working well. We found that there was another model, first in Ottawa, and then they were taking that model to Toronto as well; and us.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): Stella, you want to comment.

    Ms. Stella Lord: Yes.

    I just want to say something on one of your comments earlier, Mr. Pickard, about the funding issue, which, as you know, is based on a per capita standard. I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about areas of Canada that have perhaps lower immigration than some other areas, and there isn't the critical mass of immigrants from single communities to support those communities.

    The other issue you mentioned was women and children. We have talked about youth and children here today, and that's very important. I think we need to recognize that it may not be quite as much the case in our culture right now, but certainly in many cultures women play an incredibly important role in negotiating and supporting their children in relation to school, in relation to all kinds of other activities, in relation to their behaviour. Unless we support women in that role in terms of cultural adjustment, we are going to be reaping all kinds of problems down the road with children who are experiencing cultural conflict of various kinds.

    In terms of funding, I think I mentioned in my presentation that there was one program that was completely closed in Bedford. It was mainly addressing issues facing Middle Eastern women. It was forced to close because of funding issues, but the response from Canada Immigration, as far as I understand, in terms of trying to negotiate how this particular agency was going to cut down their programs, was, well, this community has lots of money; they can afford to go and get their own language training. I'm sorry, but that money does not find its way to the women in that community. We have to take gender issues and that issue into account.

    Thank you.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): Thank you, Stella. I think that's very significant.

    Madeleine.

[Translation]

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Thank you Mr. Chair.

    Good afternoon ladies. I listened carefully to your four presentations and I was struck by certain things, particularly the fact that one's command of language in a new country is clearly the most important tool, because we know that communication is fundamental. Clearly in a province such as Nova Scotia, where there are fewer immigrants, if we were to do some rather crude calculations, with so many people, so much money, obviously it is not working because there has been no increase in development tools. So, the committee will certainly recommend that this be examined because the most simple solutions are not always the best ones.

    I have had the opportunity to be a member of this committee for more than two years now. As a result, I have worked fairly closely on the Immigration Act. As you are no doubt aware, we were careful to ensure that the legislation included a certain number of major international agreements, with which the legislation must comply, particularly everything that has to do with the protection of children. There is also the whole issue of gender discrimination. So, discrimination is one thing, but beyond simple discrimination, women have needs that will only be paid lip service unless they are recognized in subsequent budgets.

    You have spoken about women and children—students are a different issue—and I believe that the issue of women is important because so often women are the determinant factor in integration. Women are the ones who provide care and who, in a way, become the glue that holds families together in a new environment. If women do not feel comfortable, there will be no integration. So, I believe there is a problem in terms of money.

    However, in your dealings with other levels of government— we represent the federal government—do you feel that the provincial government, for example, is doing enough? And if not, to what would you ascribe these political decisions? We know that governments, regardless of the level, make decisions based on what they think the population wants. So, that is a question that maybe you could answer.

    Ms. Miller, I must confess I was absolutely astounded to see those two lists side by side. When you compare how youth want to be seen and how they think society sees them, I think that it is devastating. Were these lists shown to the parents of these young people? In your study, you said that there were young people who immigrated here and young people who were born here. How did their parents react to this? I got the impression that these young people had self-destructive impulses. I think this is incredibly dramatic and I must confess that is troubles me deeply.

    I will not come back to the difficult situation in Quebec, where there is a high suicide rate, which I deeply regret and which we all deeply regret, but this is often linked to very low self-esteem. I must admit that I did not expect to see this here, at a hearing of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration Committee. You have pointed out some very important issues.

¸  (1440)  

[English]

    Ms. Barbara Miller: Yes, we did present information to parents, to our board members, to other community members. That's part of the reason we've had the support we do have for the partnership. I'm realizing the imagery that picture paints for people. That's why I spoke as I did today and why we will continue to do it. This really is a cry for how to change the way our communities are working. Start with the youth, and people start to pay attention when we paint that picture.

    We try to balance that, because I realize it's very shocking, by asking, what can we do? It's not fair to leave that image and say, oh, isn't it awful, and have everybody go home and weep about it. We have to know what to do. What we need to be able to do is to help the youth realize that this might be a reality or a perception and ask how we shift it.

    So the focus is on getting more resources for us in our communities focused on youth. We're talking today about trying to get that from a federal level. We do that with the other levels as well.

    Thank you.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): Peter.

    Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for the delay in my arrival this afternoon.

    One of the addresses we received from Gerry Mills said--and I like this line--that it's time to address the brain waste. In Ottawa we take taxis from the airport to our offices. One driver who normally drives with me has three languages and at least two different degrees. Here's a man who can offer so much more in the academic and occupational sense, but he's working in order to support his family. I know you have those issues here in Nova Scotia.

    It's such a complicated issue, determining how to deal with this in terms of offering opportunities in this area without the perception that we're giving all the money here, and what about the people who are actually from here—you know, that old argument again. How do we get around that? What kind of language or nuances or programs or policies should be in place federally, provincially, and municipally to address those issues?

    I think you're right, it's a terrible waste. I remember Wade Davis once said, “Language is the old growth forest of the mind.” I love that line. You're right to speak of the brain waste we have. There are so many talented people out there who just can't exercise their opportunities, for a myriad of reasons.

    I would just like you—or anyone here—to discuss that a bit further.

¸  (1445)  

    Ms. Gerry Mills: I think it starts before people even come. I think people need to have a realistic picture of what Nova Scotia or what Canada looks like and what realistic expectations they can have of finding work in their field. That's a piece that's beyond settlement; it's before they even begin.

    I know many people have talked about this before, but I think it's something that's crucial to addressing that issue. When people arrive, we need the foreign credentials assessment piece in place.

    There are different organizations that are cutting out. I know that Ontario is doing a lot in this area right now. Nova Scotia is beginning to look at whether it's possible to set up a foreign credentials assessment, but that's just assessing what credentials are. It's not breaking the barriers of getting into the professions.

    We're a multicultural society. We need to address some of those issues, and I think it's at all three levels.

    Mr. Peter Stoffer: You mentioned that we are a multicultural society, but do we have multicultural policies?

    Ms. Gerry Mills: Wow!

    Mr. Peter Stoffer: And this isn't just on a federal level; this is at all levels. Earlier this morning we had a presentation where it was remarked that after the signing of the agreement here at Pier 21, the provincial representative said, oh, great, now our rural parts of Nova Scotia will get their share of immigrants. That's pretty—

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    Mr. Peter Stoffer: Yes, he was shaking his head as well.

    We need to get around that. In language, nuance is so very important.

    I guess the question is—and again, I open this up to the panel here—do we have multicultural policies?

    Ms. Gerry Mills: Probably not, and certainly some provinces will be better at this than others. In Nova Scotia it's really difficult for newcomers, because the province has not been involved over the many years at all, and in the last couple of years it has begun to be involved. As I said earlier, the province needs to devote major time, energy, and resources to this. It can't be an add-on job for somebody; there have to be dedicated resources. It's not going to happen by itself. That's a real concern for us.

    Mr. Peter Stoffer: One thing we also heard is that what may be very helpful, not only for this committee but for other people in the country as well, is to have an immigration summit, maybe here in Halifax, and say, let's get people from within, who have recently immigrated, those who have been here before, those who are thinking of coming, other foreign government delegations, to come over here—maybe parts of the civil service, or anyone, really, who has an eye and an ear for this—to sit down and have a flat-out discussion as to why people move to Toronto. We can assume it's because they have churches and religious populations there to deliver, but I think an immigration summit is a great idea.

    Would you concur with that?

¸  (1450)  

    Ms. Gerry Mills: I think it's a wonderful idea. I know that in Nova Scotia we look toward the Manitoba model a lot. We look at the Manitoba government as doing a lot of the things that we would like to do here. One of the comments at the meeting I was at a couple of weeks ago was, well, isn't Halifax at least as attractive as Winnipeg? I mean in terms of weather.

    It's true we can do a lot more. I think there are models and there are examples and there are stories out there that we can build on and learn from. We're not doing that right now, and I think that sort of immigration conference would really help.

    Mr. Peter Stoffer: Mr. Chairman, my last question, and this is a little more sensitive, is regarding visible minorities who come, especially, as you know now, those who are Middle Eastern of Muslim descent, and the perceived perception that this is against those people before they even get here.

    I'd just like to ask, especially on the student side, how are the students coping with that? Are we doing enough at all levels, including the universities, the hospitals, police forces--any kind of regulatory agency that actually comes in contact with these newcomers--to make them feel at ease, to say yes, we are a non-racist society, and although unfortunately every society has pockets of it, we are a tolerant and generous society and we'll get you through and help you in your problems? Are we doing enough in that regard?

    It's an open question. Feel free, or maybe you can offer suggestions on how we can improve it.

    Ms. Gerry Mills: I don't think we are a non-racist society.

    Mr. Peter Stoffer: Do you still think we have more of that?

    Ms. Gerry Mills: Absolutely. I think if you're white, you may see it as a non-racist society. Every day our newcomers, our visible minority newcomers, have examples of things that have happened to them.

    Mr. Peter Stoffer: Is it perpetrated on them by the white community or is it perpetrated on them by other cultures? I'm thinking, for example, of the Muslim, Christian, and East Indian concerns.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): On your question, this could get into a major debate.

    Mr. Peter Stoffer: Mr. Chairman, you're right. I'm sorry.

    The Vice-Chair (Mr. Jerry Pickard): This could get into a future debate. I'm not sure I want to go there. I believe there are problems. From testimony we've heard across the country day in and day out, there certainly are problems with regard to racism, with regard to acceptance, with regarding to funding, with regard to a multitude of things.

    We are really short of time. We are scheduled to be on a flight out of here to Newfoundland at 5:30, and some of our folks have not packed yet. Scheduling to finish our string here at three o'clock, I see we're coming very close to that time.

    I think it's very important that you realize as a committee that your testimony and the presentations you have made will be taken under advisement and seriously considered. We as a committee want to thank you for coming forward and presenting the information.

    I would suggest that in different ways some of your information certainly is corroborated by other witnesses who present it in a little different way, who present similar ideas and similar concerns. One of the good parts about coming to less populated regions.... I'm from rural Canada, basically, Ontario; however, not in that great people mass Toronto area. So we see different problems as well, even if we are in Ontario--or British Columbia but not in Vancouver.

    The main issue here in many regards is trying to establish the best possible policies and principles that we can to help folks. I think all of us owe a debt of gratitude to each of you for the work you and your organizations carry out. We know that you need a lot of support in order for this problem to be dealt with. No one seems to have answers that are easy, no one seems to have clear answers. However, policies that would be supportive of and fostering good opportunities for immigrants in all areas of Canada are primary goals that our committee would like to develop and see move forward.

    So I thank you again for coming forward and presenting that information.

    I can personally say, as a teacher for 25 years, that I have seen a lot of the problems you bring forward. I've had a great deal of experience in trying to help with those gaps that do exist and the problems that we do have with regard to new students coming into our area. They do face different challenges from a lot of people who are in the society ahead. So thank you for your work, and we hope that some of the problems may be dealt with and corrected over time.

    Thank you very much.

    We're adjourned.