FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, March 2, 2000

• 1559

[English]

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.)): Bonjour and welcome. I am taking the place of the chair and the vice-chairs.

I want to begin, Ambassador, by apologizing for the delay in the start of the meeting, and also for the attendance of the members, who at this point in time are involved I guess in some other activities and may be joining us. I'm not too clear on this.

Members will remember that we held hearings in November and December, and out of those hearings, the decision was made that we'd do a report on what we heard and make some recommendations.

• 1600

Out of that, one of the things we agreed upon was that we'd ask you to join us, Ambassador, to talk about country conditions and to share with you the activities that are occurring to ensure the committee's concerns are conveyed, not only among ourselves but also to Colombian and Canadian officials at all levels.

So I want to welcome you again and say to you that everything that is said and your presentation will all be documented and will be ready for all of the members to read. So your speaking to a limited committee does not mean your presentation is.... We'll ensure that whatever you communicate will—

Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): When you say “limited committee”, you are not talking about us, are you?

Voices: Oh, oh!

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Limited numbers.

Voices: Oh, oh!

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): But the others will be reading whatever you say, Ambassador.

Thank you very much. Please proceed.

[Translation]

Mr. Guill Rishchynski (Ambassador of Canada to Colombia): Madam Chair, I'm very grateful for the opportunity to be here this afternoon. It is indeed an honour for me, as Canada's Ambassador to Colombia, to meet with Canadian MPs who are interested in the situation in Colombia. The situation in Colombia today is rather fragile, but we hope that we are in the initial stages of a process that will lead to future peace for all Colombians.

[English]

With your permission, Madam Chairman, I would propose to provide you with some introductory remarks and then proceed to a presentation using some overheads that have been provided to you previously. I won't be using them all, obviously, but those that relate principally to the peace process. The ability to update you following the hearings in November and December on the current situation with the peace process in Colombia will hopefully be useful to the committee's understanding of the evolution of the situation on the ground in Colombia and how we as an embassy see it.

First and foremost, expressing the view of the Canadian embassy in Bogota, we were delighted that hearings on Colombia took place this past autumn. From our perspective at the embassy, Canada has a very unique role to play in the search for peace in Colombia, because this is a situation that is in our neighbourhood, as it were. By flying time on a direct basis from Ottawa, the city of Cartagena is only five and a half hours away, and Bogota another hour further. So this is very much a situation that responds to a potential for Canada to exercise leadership in the hemisphere and in assisting a society that seeks to change its current condition from one of conflict to one of peace.

One of the things I have been struck by very much as a new ambassador in Colombia is how Colombia sees our country. Colombians see Canada as a society of tolerance, as a society of opportunity, and as a society where human rights are respected. These are very much the concepts Colombia wishes to adapt to its situation to ensure that peace and opportunity are things all Colombians in all walks of life enjoy as very basic freedoms in their lives.

But the situation in Colombia is a complicated one, and that's something we as external observers need to appreciate first and foremost. It is not a situation that lends itself to simple definitions, because the current situation in Colombia is rooted in history and is also regrettably rooted in one of the facts of life of modern-day Colombia, which is the fact that drug cultivation and the profits of drugs continue to deter development of the society and present a grave challenge to the authorities who are committed to combating narco-trafficking and all of the concomitant social ills associated with that as an absolute priority.

The government of President Pastrana is very committed to the search for peace, and with great political and personal courage, the President has decided to pursue a strategy of negotiation with insurgent groups in the country. This recognizes a reality that I think virtually all Colombians appreciate, which is the fact that military victory by any party in Colombia—be it the armed forces, the insurgents, or the paramilitaries—is simply not possible. The country is too complicated, the geography too difficult. As a function of that, the search for peace is the only option to exert change in a society that wishes to manifest itself as a modern, 21st-century nation.

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Something very new in Colombia that we've seen in the course of the last four months is the fact that mass public opinion is now mobilized to support the search for peace. The No Más! movement, “No More”, mobilized 12 million Colombians on the streets of major cities across the country to say they wanted change, to say they wanted an end to guerrilla insurgency, an end to kidnapping, an end to paramilitary activity, and an opportunity to develop Colombia in a modern fashion, with peace and tranquillity and economic opportunity being the very basic freedoms of their society.

With your permission, Madam Chairman, I would like to proceed now and provide you with an update on the Colombian peace process, based on our analysis at the embassy.

To put Colombia in physical perspective, the country is about the size of Quebec and the Maritime provinces combined. It is determined geographically by three very, very large mountain ranges that run north-south almost in line with each other in the western part of the country. In the eastern part of the country is the Amazon basin, where literally the only possibility of movement is either by air or by rivers. It is a country of 40 million people, with at least a half-dozen cities with over one million in population, and its capital, Bogota, is twice the size of Toronto, with a population exceeding seven million people.

It is a very strategic country, because it is the only country in Latin America that has two coastlines, one on the Pacific and one on the Caribbean. From that standpoint, it is a very, very strategic country in the region. Perhaps one of the reasons drug production has concentrated itself of late in Colombia is these geographically strategic factors.

The conflict in Colombia as currently constituted really has three major components. On the left side of the slide, you have the five major insurgent groups, left-wing guerrillas. The FARC, at the top, are the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, with approximately 15,000 men and women under arms. The ELN, the National Liberation Army, has approximately 5,000 adherents. The EPL is the Popular Liberation Army, which is linked with the FARC and has approximately 1,000 armed combatants. Then there are two very small groups but still significant: the Jaime Bateman Cayón front, which operates in the southern part of Colombia, and the ERP. These are very small groups, with approximately only 200 adherents in each of these groups.

To the right of the slide, you have the paramilitary groups. The paramilitary groups began life many years ago, some thirty or forty years ago, as self-defence forces in reaction to left-wing guerrilla activity. They are now a very large force of somewhere between 8,000 and 10,000 men. They have been identified as the single largest perpetrators of human rights abuses over the course of the last twelve to eighteen months in Colombia, and the Government of Colombia is taking them very, very seriously as a threat to peace and a threat to national stability.

Regrettably there are also very well-organized common criminals in Colombia, what in Spanish are known as common delinquents, and these people perpetrate a number of criminal activities in major cities and in the countryside.

Then of course there's the narco-trafficking dimension of Colombia, which is organized crime and is very different from what we here in Canada have seen and heard about Colombia over the course of the last decade, in that narco-trafficking is no longer the purview of very large cartels of the Pablo Escobar era of the late 1980s and early 1990s. Drug trafficking in Colombia has been de-cartelized, because the large cartels were dismantled, and in a sense is much more tough to deal with today, because it is so diffuse and so well organized technologically.

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Confronting these forces is the Government of Colombia, as represented by its army and police. The army in Colombia has approximately 140,000 under arms, the police about 100,000. But in a geographic area the size of the maritime provinces and Quebec, you can appreciate that the ability of the army and the police to keep peace effectively in the country is challenged, not only by physical distances, but also by geographic reality.

There are currently two peace processes under way in Colombia, and there is the possibility of additional dialogue in terms of the search for peace. The two main peace processes in the country are, first, the government's ongoing negotiations since January 1999 with the FARC in the southeastern part of the country, and now more recently the possibility of civil society and government negotiations with the ELN, the second-largest group, at a site that is yet to be determined.

From our analysis at the embassy, at some juncture there needs to be consideration of how the paramilitary movement in Colombia, with 8,000 to 10,000 men, is part of the solution. They are certainly part of the problem of peace today, and at some juncture they need to be taken seriously in terms of the search for peace. There have now been recent statements by members of the EPL, a small group aligned with the FARC, that they too would like to seek negotiations with the government on an independent basis.

You can appreciate that with two, and possibly three or more, peace negotiations at the same time, the government is in a very difficult situation. The first question one asks is why it isn't possible to have one single negotiation. The reality is that the guerrillas, the armed insurgents themselves, do not favour one single negotiation. As a result of this, the government of President Pastrana has no choice other than to negotiate separately. Although I think the preference of all in Colombia would be for a single comprehensive peace agreement, this piece-by-piece approach is the approach that has been now set in train. The government continues to move forward on that basis, seeking peace and dialogue.

The government-FARC negotiations, as I mentioned, were formally opened on January 7, 1999, in the municipality of San Vicente del Caguán, in the southeastern part of Colombia. There was much discussion and procedural wrangling for approximately eight or nine months, and then the substantive negotiations began in October of last year.

I should mention that the FARC as a movement is primarily rural-based and campesino-led. It is much less ideological than the ELN in the sense of being committed to any formal ideology in the leftist sense. It is a group from which many had not visited the world. Indeed, many of them had never even seen the capital of Bogotá, so it was very significant when the members of the FARC negotiating team agreed to be accompanied by the Colombian peace commissioner on a tour of Europe in February of this year. They went to Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, and France, in an effort to not only look at potential economic models for Colombia in the future, but to understand the international community's engagement with the peace process.

The fact that this insurgent movement felt sufficient confidence to go with the government outside of the territory of Colombia in order to learn about the international community's reaction to the situation in the country is something that we at the embassy see as extremely positive. It is the type of confidence-building measure that leads us to hope that in the next round of negotiations, which begin next week, there will be progress on the substantive agenda and that we will be seeing the beginning of compromise. Until now the discussion has been about procedure, and not about actual agreements.

As I mentioned, one of the first steps the government took in relation to its discussion with FARC was the creation of a demilitarized zone in the southeastern sector of Colombia. This is an area about the geographical size of Switzerland. It contains about 100,000 inhabitants, about twice the size of the country of El Salvador. It encompasses five municipalities, San Vicente del Caguán being the biggest and being the site of the current peace discussions.

• 1615

The government of President Pastrana was criticized very heavily, both nationally and internationally, for having ceded the demilitarized zone to the insurgents, but the reality is that the presence of the Colombian state in this part of the country was very modest, other than a thousand men garrisoned in the city of San Vicente. As a result, the FARC who were already there gained administrative control of this area, and the only institution of the national government that remains in the demilitarized zone is the human rights ombudsman.

We as an embassy, along with Holland, Sweden, and Switzerland, are supporting on a financial basis the ongoing presence of the human rights ombudsman in this region in order to ensure that continues in terms of the protection of human rights of the citizens of this demilitarized zone.

What substantively are the insurgents and the government discussing? There are twelve points that were agreed upon in early 1999 as substantive agenda items for the government-FARC peace negotiation. Point five, “Social and Economic Structures”, has been selected by both parties as the first issue to be dealt with, but primarily at the insistence of the FARC.

Each of these twelve issues is to be the object of discussion for a period of between three to six months. Any agreements achieved in the context of the individual items will be implemented immediately, and this will form ultimately a comprehensive peace agreement between the government and FARC that will govern their relations in the future.

Social and economic structures are important. The view of our embassy is that it might have been preferable in these negotiations to begin with issues of human rights and respect for international humanitarian law, but the largest difficulty in this agenda between the government and the FARC is that the stated intention of the insurgency is that it will only negotiate from a state of war. In other words, there will be no ceasefire, there will be no stopping of kidnapping, and the acts of war and armed struggle will continue based on determinations made by the FARC commanders. However, our preference and hope is that now, after their tour of Europe, they will see the benefits of creating a ceasefire and desisting from armed actions against both the government and the civilians, and will begin to negotiate peace from a state of peace, as opposed to a state of war.

How is the public in Colombia to be involved in these negotiations? Basically, you have the negotiating teams at the national level that are involved in the day-to-day discussions of the peace agenda. They have established a subcommittee, a thematic committee that will take representations from public audiences, from citizens and institutions, through various forms, either by telephone, by e-mail, or by other means, and they will feed these recommendations forward to the national negotiation commission.

The fact that there is at least a seminal structure of public consultation that will accompany this process is something that we see as extremely important. The public in Colombia will have an opportunity to express itself. This is something the government has insisted on, and we believe it is a very positive issue for peace.

[Translation]

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Ambassador, that's very interesting. The government and the FARC are holding joint public hearings. Is that correct?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: That's correct. The public hearings take place in a designated location through electronic forms such as conference calls, website connections and telephones. Public hearings cannot be held across the country for security reasons. Members of the public can come to this location and share their views with the thematic committee. Recommendations will then be forwarded to the Mesa Nacional.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Does "ciudadanos" mean "citizens"?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Yes. Representative bodies such as NGOs and universities will also be involved in the process. This is the first time ever that this approach has been taken to get some public input in the peace process. This is a very significant step, in our view.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: This is fantastic. Could we possibly get a photocopy of this?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Certainly. I believe you'll find a copy along with the overheads you were given. It's the first time the government has devised a way of getting input from Colombians. We feel that this is absolutely critical to the process.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: But are Colombians confident? The government can establish a structure, but if it seems in any way artificial, then Colombians won't participate.

• 1620

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: After the FARC's tour of Europe, I think they're beginning to believe that their views may finally be heard in the negotiation process. That's significant, in our view.

The FARC and the government are set to resume negotiations this week in San Vicente del Caguan and we'll see how things turn out. The other group, the ELN, has initiated a dialogue with the government, but at the same time, it has tried to exert some military pressure on the government to further its cause. In recent months, Colombia has witnessed several acts of terrorism against the country's electrical grid and natural gas and oil pipelines. The ELN is pressuring officials in an attempt to gain the same status as the FARC in the peace negotiations.

[English]

What is the ELN seeking? Well, first and foremost, the ELN is seeking an agreement similar to what the FARC has in terms of the creation of another demilitarized zone in the country. They would administratively be in charge of it, and there would be a venue for them to potentially negotiate with the government. And there has been a very long history of negotiations between the government, preceding President Pastrana, with the ELN.

The ELN is a very different group from the FARC in terms of their intellectual orientation. The ELN is more in the realm of a Fidel Castro-led insurgency movement. It is much more ideological. Its founding members were priests who believed in Marxism as a means of liberating societies. Because of its intellectual orientation, it is felt that when negotiations truly begin, it will be a group that will be able to progress more quickly than FARC, in terms of an understanding of not only international dimensions and responsibility, but actual agreements as well.

The next step, the declaration of a possible demilitarized zone in the southern part of the province of Bolívar, in the dead middle of Colombia, is something that is now very much under discussion. The problem with this demilitarized zone is that unlike the area that FARC controls, where they are the only insurgent group, in this part of Colombia paramilitaries are very active. Indeed, the FARC itself is quite active there as well, and there is no love between the ELN and the FARC as far as the positioning of the guerrillas as a group together is concerned.

The ELN hopes to begin what they call a national convention, with direct negotiations with the government. In the context of that agenda, what the ELN hopes to discuss—and here there is a very different orientation from what exists with the FARC—is a round table on human rights, international humanitarian law, impunity and justice as the first item; a round table on energy and natural resources as the second; economy and social problems as the third; and then culture, agrarian problems, and narco-trafficking as a fourth agenda item. It is hoped that these negotiations can move forward during the course of the coming weeks, but we have a problem in the creation of this demilitarized zone, because how the paramilitary movements will react to its creation is something that can only be speculated at this point.

The role of civil society in this process is yet to be defined. There is not a structure yet in place for public input into this process, as we have seen with FARC, although there are members of civil society who are part of the government negotiating team with the ELN for purposes of these negotiations.

So with these two processes, what happens next? Here we would like to pose a number of issues in terms of where the situation in Colombia will go in the future.

We believe there is a three- or four-month window, or perhaps a bit longer, in which peace can actually take root in the country, because new elections for president are due in the year 2002. President Pastrana reaches the mid-point of his term in August. This year, elections for mayors and governors will also be taking place across the country, and they have all of the hallmarks of politicization, with active engagement by the various insurgent groups.

The No Más! movement is a new phenomenon in Colombia. Public opinion is being mobilized. There were 12 million demonstrators in October saying no more violence, no more war. And they are planning more mass demonstrations in Colombia in the month of May. There is a concern about a plan B, that some of these groups will wish to take on military aspects to achieve their ends, which could bring Colombia into a greater extent of violence than we currently see.

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A major unknown factor is the U.S. contribution to Plan Colombia, which I will return to as a concept. The United States is looking at providing $1.6 billion of assistance to Colombia. Much of that assistance will be in the military domain, but there will also be a fairly significant portion in the social area. For Plan Colombia to work, this contribution of the United States must be matched by contributions from Europe, Japan, and other donors so that the social component and the totality of Plan Colombia can be achieved.

I should clarify, because it is a misconception that exists in many parts of the world, that Plan Colombia is not just the U.S. assistance. Plan Colombia is international assistance and Colombian investment at a level of $7 billion, of which the United States provides $1.6 billion. The World Bank, the Inter-American Development Bank, the European Union, Japan, and many other donors are being looked at for about $3 billion of assistance. Colombia itself will probably invest somewhere in the order of $4 billion of its own resources.

It is significant because it is the first comprehensive plan that seeks to address the issue of drugs and an alternative development to drugs and that also looks at issues of peace and the sustainability of peace. The government of President Pastrana has placed great priority on this in terms of the future.

[Translation]

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Excuse me for a moment.

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Yes.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: I didn't quite understand. Is Canada a participant in the Plan Colombia?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: We haven't been formally asked to participate, but in terms of our bilateral aid, we have already moved to refocus our bilateral aid program so as to respond to the priorities of Plan Colombia. Our focus will be on displaced persons, human rights and alternative farming. We hope that by early next year, we can start work on this particular initiative.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Are NGOs on side?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Judging from the comments we heard during this week's peace building talks, they are generally on side. CIDA has seized the opportunity to ask NGOs to apprise it of the projects and ideas they would like to carry out in support of the peace process in Colombia. I think we have a very special role to play, because in Colombia, Canada is highly respected as a society interested in working out a compromise that will build peace. We can play a fairly major role in supporting the process undertaken by the President.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: The United States are not investing in this plan solely to eradicate drug trafficking. There is more to it than that.

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: I'll come back to that. Perhaps I can explain it to you. Under the Plan Colombia, the US has pledged a total of $468 million to help the Colombian armed forces fight drug trafficking. The proposed ban applies not only to Colombia, but to the entire Andean community. Funds will also go to the national police which have primary responsibility for controlling drug trafficking. This is over and above the US$300 million that the Colombian police already receive from the US. A further $31 million is earmarked to help displaced persons. Finally, approximately $145 million will go to Colombia, Peru, Bolivia and other countries to help them resolve existing development and relocation problems. The total aid package is in the neighbourhood of US$1.6 billion.

The bulk of these funds will be used to set up an additional squad to fight drug trafficking and to equip it with helicopters.

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[English]

The two other issues that remain outstanding with regard to where the process may be going in the medium term are the possibility of the convergence of the processes into a single dialogue, which at this juncture does not seem possible, based on the relative positions of the insurgency, and the paramilitary issue.

I think at this juncture I would like to provide our view as an embassy with regard to the whole issue of paramilitaries, who in recent reports by Human Rights Watch and also by the United Nations Human Rights Commission are seen as the perpetrators of in excess of three-quarters of the human rights abuses in the country.

There are those who would say that paramilitaries are an extension of state policy in Colombia. I would like to say on the record today that from an embassy perspective, we do not believe this to be the case. It doesn't wash with what we are hearing from senior commanders of the armed forces and the government itself. The government recognizes that paramilitaries are a problem. They are a problem in the sense of operating with increasing independence and impunity across the country and as an obstacle to the peace process.

I think over the course of the last three or four months the government of President Pastrana and the Minister of Defence have recognized this issue on a more fulsome basis. While there is evidence that there have been instances of collusion between certain commanders at various levels in the Colombian military and paramilitaries, to state that somehow the Government of Colombia supports paramilitary activity I think is inaccurate and does not give the government sufficient credit for understanding a problem that is now increasing in proportion.

However, the government needs to take more active steps, and we are encouraging them to do so, in addressing the paramilitary issue forthrightly, prosecuting those who are guilty of collusion, and creating the legal mechanisms necessary to be able to deal with this phenomenon as an abuse of human rights when it acts against innocent civilian populations. I think the government is very cognizant of the international community's gaze with regard to issues of this type, and it is our hope that we will see this translated into policy and action over the course of the coming months.

In terms of a role for Canada and the international community, increasingly we are seeing that the war on drugs has to be an international effort and that it is not simply a problem that can be said to be Colombia's alone. In today's world there is no such thing as producing countries and consumer countries. We are all producers, and we are all consumers. Part of the issue in Colombia is that the drug trade continues to fuel the activities of illegal groups of any political stripe. With a reduction in drug production, we believe the prospects for peace will increase.

In terms of the Colombian priorities with regard to Plan Colombia, we believe a donors' meeting of the international community will take place in Spain in June of this year. That meeting will seek to bring funding and commitments to bear to support Plan Colombia activities in the social development areas, the alternative development areas, and the drug interdiction areas.

In terms of existing international support for the peace process, the Rio group of countries in Latin America and the Ibero-American group of Spain, Mexico, Costa Rica, Venezuela, and Cuba are also involved in supporting the process, as are Russia and Israel. Venezuela and Peru have complications because of bilateral agendas. But by and large the support of the region and the international community is something we are seeing grow.

The ELN process has already involved Venezuela as a venue for talks. Germany, as during the 1998 period, as well as Spain and Cuba and the good offices of international partners are going to be important and essential in terms of the ELN process going forward.

A very significant development is point three. In December of this year Secretary General Annan nominated a special representative for Colombia in the person of Mr. Jan Egeland, the former foreign minister of Norway. Mr. Egeland was involved in the peace accords in Central America and in the Oslo accords with the PLO and Israel. He's someone who has had a long experience in peace negotiations. Now as a special adviser for Colombia, he has the opportunity to exert his influence on moving the process forward. We believe the FARC tour of Europe, starting in Sweden and Norway, owed very much to work behind the scenes by Mr. Egeland.

• 1635

The OAS arises as a possible forum to support the Colombian peace process, somewhat perhaps complicated by a former president of Colombia being the current secretary general. But certainly at some juncture an OAS dimension to the search for peace is something we believe will be imminent.

Canada's position is that we support a negotiated settlement. We continue to believe that human rights and the protection of human rights and respect for international humanitarian law must be a singular priority within the context of the search for peace, because you cannot have peace if you don't have respect for that, and you cannot have respect for human rights without an environment for peace.

What is the outlook for the immediate future? We see both pros and cons, and we will have to monitor the situation very carefully, but certainly the government of President Pastrana is determined to proceed with peace negotiations, and that in itself is a very positive development.

International support is now forthcoming, both at the level of Plan Colombia and at the level of declaratory support to the process. No Más! as a phenomenon supports the search for peace. The ELN, we believe, is weakening as a military force, and the army in Colombia is performing better in terms of its confrontations with the insurgents. History demonstrates that the writing is on the wall that society in Colombia will simply not tolerate a continuation of the violence on an ad infinitum kind of basis.

The fact that FARC has now undertaken a tour of Europe and is engaged with the world we believe is a very positive development. However, FARC is also stronger than ever as a military force, and with the proceeds from drugs and kidnapping they are able to finance the purchase of ever more sophisticated equipment. There are reports, unconfirmed, that the FARC may in fact now have helicopters and surface-to-air missiles, and from that standpoint they become a military force of much greater power than in the past.

The government strategy on peace up until now has been divided. We are now seeing the government look to a more comprehensive aspect of peace with the support of the international community. However, the signs of goodwill on the part of the insurgency to cease fire and to stop kidnapping have yet to be seen. Certainly the fact that there are two guerrilla armies and a large paramilitary force circulating in the country makes the prospects for peace a challenge. And the economic situation of Colombia, where a recession has been very difficult over the course of the last two years, means that many young people, especially, are going into the armed insurgencies as a way of making money.

State policy and a lack of time in terms of a window of opportunity for peace continue to be major challenges for the government in terms of moving forward. In our estimation at the embassy, we believe the next 12 to 18 months in Colombia will be absolutely critical to the ability of sustaining a peace process into the future and ultimately reaching agreements.

The international community is engaged. We think Canada, as a leader in this hemisphere, as host for the OAS summit in June of this year and as host to the summit of leaders of the hemisphere in Quebec City in April of next year, has a particularly important role to play. We are engaged politically with Colombia. We support the government of President Pastrana in its search for peace. We are there as voices with respect to human rights issues that seek to ensure that this remains a priority and that armed actors in the conflict cease and desist from acts of violence against innocent civilians. And in an environment as complicated as this one, we believe that Canada's voice is not only heard, but appreciated.

We believe, from a political perspective, that Canada as a leader in the western hemisphere can play a leadership role in assisting Colombia. Certainly based on discussions between the president and prime minister, and most recently during Minister Axworthy's visit, we believe that Canada is now positioned in Colombia to play an active role in what is a search for peace for 40 million people.

Thank you very much.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): I think we have before us Mr. Axworthy's response to the committee and also the follow-up to the resolutions we presented. So you have that documentation.

All right, we'll start with Mr. Martin.

Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Thank you very much.

• 1640

Thank you, Ambassador Rishchynski. I apologize for being late. I had to make a speech in the House, if you believe it. Duty called there. Thank you very much for appearing in front of the committee.

I have several questions. My riding is in Victoria, and it's quite amazing, as you know, the number of people there who are very interested in the situation in Colombia and have been very active in trying to pursue human rights concerns there.

I have a letter from a constituent, and I'll just ask a couple of questions from that, if I may.

The first question involves the compensation—and if you said this in your presentation, I apologize for not being here to listen to it—for the Embera people for the damage that's been inflicted on their lands by the Urrá I dam, which we, as you well know, partially funded through the EDC.

My second question is on the status of the Urrá II dam, whether we're going to fund it, and whether a similar situation will occur with respect to people being displaced and not being compensated.

The third issue concerns Mr. Pastrana's support for paramilitary organizations. From your perspective, what can we do as a country to express to Mr. Pastrana that actions by paramilitaries and their abuse of human rights is unacceptable to us?

Lastly, in regard to Canada's support for helicopters for Colombia, what happened to those helicopters? What are they used for—military or civilian purposes? And is the RCMP actually down there training Mr. Pastrana's troops?

Thank you very much.

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Thank you, sir.

With respect to Urrá, I believe the response that Mr. Axworthy sent to the committee addresses this issue in substantive terms, but I'll add to that some personal observations arising from an hour-and-a-half meeting that I spent with the Minister of the Environment that covered nothing but Urrá, and something that I think clarified in my mind quite a bit the Government of Colombia's view with respect to this project.

What was very interesting about the minister's remarks when we met with him earlier this year was that the whole approach to this project on the part of the Colombian government was very much piecemeal. It was not thought out in a comprehensive way. The government, for example, obtained a permit to build the dam, but did not accompany that action by obtaining a permit to create a reservoir and fill the reservoir to feed the dam so that it could generate hydroelectricity. The minister believed that this was very misplaced policy on the part of the Colombian government in 1992-94, because it failed to take into account the long-term potential impacts of the project, and basically looked at the dam alone as a project phenomenon.

As a result of that, issues with respect to potential displacement of the indigenous populations in that region were not part of the original designs of the project, because until the reservoir was created and subsequently filled, the Embera communities were not affected by the actual construction of the dam itself. The minister was quite surprised, in actual fact, that his predecessors had allowed a project to continue on this basis, but he was forced to deal with the realities of today, six years after the project was approved and after construction had moved forward.

I should mention that Minister Juan Mayr, the Minister of the Environment in Colombia, is himself someone who has spent 30 years of his life in support of indigenous peoples in Colombia. He was at the forefront of the NGO that created the Tairona indigenous reserve in the Santa Marta region, which is sacred land for the Tairona people of Colombia, and I think he has dealt with this matter in a very forthright and transparent fashion in terms of where things have gone over the course of Urrá over the last two years.

When the dam was constructed and a decision had to be made with respect to moving forward on the filling of the reservoir, the Government of Colombia presented a number of proposals to the Embera people with respect to potential resettlement. Based on the information that the embassy has been able to obtain, about half of the Embera population chose to accept the government's offer of resettlement and compensation, and have now moved to another region in the province of Córdoba. They have settled in new communities and are receiving their compensation from the government in terms of the development of the new lands they're living on.

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Approximately half of the Embera community decided they would not accept the government's offer. This part of the community indicated that the government's policy of not consulting with them prior to the decision to build the dam was really at the root of the problem. The government recognized that was something that should have been done from the outset, but in putting forward a plan of compensation and resettlement, they felt they were putting a program to the Embera communities that would allow them to stay in the region where their traditional lands were, and from a financial perspective it accurately reflected the realities with respect to a value that could be ascribed to potential resettlement.

Minister Mayr felt, in terms of the investigation his department did and adherence to Colombian law, that they met the letter of their obligations. The fact that half of the community chose not to accept the transaction meant they wished to negotiate with that group on a potential solution. But he indicated to me that the problem is that the Embera community does not wish to negotiate one-on-one with the government; they wish to negotiate through third parties. The government has indicated that is not an acceptable course of action. They wish to negotiate directly with the Embera themselves and/or their representatives, and seek a solution that is equitable.

We are at a standoff, as far as that is concerned. A number of the Embera are now occupying the patio of the Ministry of the Environment to press their claim. Minister Mayr is meeting with them on a regular basis, if not daily. It is hoped they will return to the table and begin a dialogue to solve this problem and hopefully reach an agreement that is acceptable to this remaining part of the community, as it was found acceptable by the other half of the Embera population that decided to accept resettlement. It is a legal issue, fundamentally.

As far as Urrá II, I think the government's view is that the Urrá project, in terms of the hydroelectric power it is generating, is adding marginal value to the electrical grid of the country. Urrá II, as an option in terms of future development, is not something they will pursue. We have had no indication from the government that this project will proceed. Indeed, we have had no indication of any potential Canadian involvement.

It should perhaps be underlined that Canada's involvement in Urrá I was $18.2 million U.S., of a project of well over $700 million U.S., financed primarily by Scandinavia—Sweden.

Sweden has also faced the same kind of scrutiny on this project that we have. They join us in hoping that the Colombian government and the affected communities can reach a legal solution to this problem, within the context of existing Colombian law and jurisprudence, and the community will be satisfied that the offer being made by the government is both just and equitable.

Mr. Keith Martin: May I just ask one quick question?

If there was no plan for Urrá I, or if the plan was ill-thought-out, why did EDC put in $18.2 million? It was a small amount, compared to the total amount. Nonetheless, it was the Canadian taxpayers' money, and for them to give that kind of money to a plan that was so ill-thought-out.... Where did the disconnect come, in terms of their intelligence?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: I can't speak for EDC, in terms of criteria applied at the time of project approval. However, I believe a Canadian exporter sought the support of EDC as a subcontractor in this project, and EDC applied its analysis to the Urrá situation, as it was in 1992.

I believe, in terms of scrutiny on projects of this type, there has been great evolution over the course of the last seven or eight years. We would have to ask EDC, if a project of that nature came forward under the current regime, what their position would be. Certainly as an officer of the Department of Foreign Affairs, I've learned through my career that one never speaks for the Export Development Corporation.

Mr. Keith Martin: Do I have any time left at all?

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): You have two more minutes.

Mr. Keith Martin: There was a massacre that allegedly took place on February 19. Did it happen? If it happened, who did it, and what's being done to bring the perpetrators to justice?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: On February 18 I was visiting the municipality of Apartadó in the Urabá region. The day after my departure, members of paramilitary groups entered a community of peace. A community of peace is a community that has declared itself neutral in Colombia. They singled out five individuals, who were small-business people, for execution.

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This was a despicable act, which has been condemned by Canada formally. Our political counsellor, Mr. Coghlan, who met with this committee in October or November, spent the last four days in the Urabá region. He has made representations to military authorities, civil authorities, and ecclesiastical authorities, and is seeking further details and clarification as to the state of the investigation.

Mr. Keith Martin: What was Mr. Pastrana's response to this?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Mr. Pastrana and the Minister of Defence categorically condemned the actions of these groups. I think that speaks perhaps to the other question you raised, with respect to the relationship of paramilitaries and the Colombian government. As I stated, perhaps prior to your arrival here, there have been documented instances of command-level officers in the Colombian army in collusion with paramilitaries, and lower-level ranks also being involved with paramilitary groups.

There seems to be a linkage in this case to perhaps some level of Colombian army participation with the paramilitaries, based on an insignia that was allegedly seen on the uniform of one of the perpetrators. But it is simply inaccurate, in my view, to say it is state policy in Colombia to support paramilitary groups. On the contrary, I think President Pastrana and the Minister of Defence today recognize that paramilitaries are a threat to the state, of probably equal significance to that of other insurgents. But because the paramilitaries exist as a reaction to leftist insurgency, there have been instances of collusion.

I think the government needs to be more forceful in prosecuting those who are found to be culpable in those instances. But I do not believe, based on what I have seen in my first six months as ambassador, the government is proactively seeking to work with paramilitary forces in the country. Evidence simply does not support that.

Mr. Keith Martin: Thank you very much.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Ms. Lalonde.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: I will continue, because I've heard the same representations and received the same information. My question is this: what can be done to ensure the safety of members of religious organizations?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Unfortunately, safety is a concern for everyone, not just religious communities, but NGO workers as well. As we see it, as far as violence is concerned, an international presence in so-called “hot spots”.... In three or four different locations in Colombia, paramilitary organizations, guerillas and perhaps two or three other groups are all operating at the same time. Undoubtedly, this is where the situation is at its worse. In some cases, groups are operating only 20 kilometres apart from one another. Unfortunately, the likelihood of confrontations and violence is great.

In our view, the presence on site of NGOs, international peacekeepers, human rights agencies and religious organizations has a rather beneficial effect. This presence affords some measure of protection. Their visibility means that the opposing factions cannot do whatever they like. They feel a certain sense of responsibility.

I'm not saying that this presence alone will entirely eliminate the incidence of human rights violations. However, it would seem that an international presence improves the situation on the human rights front. In some parts of the country, however, a state of violence has been openly declared. Virtually every family and person there has been affected in more ways than one by the prevailing violence.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: I enjoyed your presentation tremendously. In your opinion, what conditions are needed in order for this process to succeed and in what way can Canada and other countries contribute?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: If we are to entertain any hopes that the peace process will go forward, I think it's critical that we initiate some kind of dialogue today on national reconciliation and that we work with Colombia and its people. It's vitally important that we do so. Violence has been a long-standing problem. Groups of insurgents and their leaders have spent over 50 years in the countryside as combatants. Fifty years of violence have spawned many recriminations and it's critically important that we reconcile these different viewpoints.

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Canada's experience with helping to restore and maintain peace in various regions of the world provides it with some perspective on the post-conflict situation: how to demobilize the armed combatants, how to bring about a shift in attitude toward the specific objectives of the other insurgent groups, etc.

Our position is respected by the Colombians - not just by governments, but also by insurgent groups which recognize that on the international scene, Canada is a nation fully committed to bringing peaceful conditions to the world. To my mind, the biggest challenge confronting us is to gain some visibility, politically speaking, in Colombia, so that we can begin working with the NGOs and the embassies and discussing specific accords aimed at brining about not just peace, but a lasting peace in the country.

It is absolutely critical that this peace building effort be accompanied by major efforts on the socioeconomic front. If we do not succeed in changing the economic conditions that compel the campesinos to cultivate drugs, then nothing will change in Colombia.

The president is very much aware of this situation and that's why the goal of Plan Colombia is not only to eradicate drugs, but also to secure the social investments needed to create economic conditions which will allow the rural residents of Colombia to alter their lifestyle. These changes must occur in conjunction with the peace process. Otherwise, in 10 or 12 years, another insurrection could take place, with the various parties making the same demands.

Canada enjoys a certain freedom of action. Our bilateral aid program is a modest program, but it targets individuals with immediate needs. Our experience as a peace builder allows us to play our traditional role of international broker, but at the same time, it allows us to act as a leader, spelling out the general aims of the peace process in Colombia.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Canadian investments in Colombia are significant. I don't recall how much....

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Five billion.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Yes, five billion. The Urra dam construction project was heavily criticized by local residents. In your opinion, are other corporations playing a positive role or are you cautioning them not to do anything that might incite violence?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: The Canadian business community operating today in Colombia is very much aware of its responsibilities when it comes to the prevailing conditions in Colombia. Many of these corporations work in rural areas where insurgent groups operate. They are also mindful of the need to work with the people living near these areas in the oil and natural gas sectors, because these communities need to benefit from the economic activity going on around them.

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When I arrived in Colombia, I was very impressed to note that the Colombian-Canadian Chamber of Commerce was the first bilateral chamber of commerce to support the establishment of a forum on human rights and ethical investment in Colombia. This is a reflection of Canada's leadership and efforts to convince corporations of the importance of impressing upon the Colombian business community the need to get involved, as business people, in human rights issues and to discuss such issues openly.

It is indeed a formidable challenge to convince people, in particular traditional Colombian businesses, that human rights issues need to be discussed in conjunction with economic ones. Four hundred people were invited to the forum and 10 per cent of those invited actually attended the forum. However, attendance may have been up by 10 per cent over the past and maybe next time, 100 people will attend.

The type of leadership displayed by Canada in its business dealings with our companies in the area is a very positive sign and as Canadians, we can be proud of having given them this responsibility. From a practical standpoint, Canada's activities in Colombia in the mining, oil, natural gas and telecommunications sectors, in other words, its work on infrastructures, has made Canadian companies feel clearly some responsibility toward the communities with which they are contact. Moreover, they accept this responsibility.

I was very surprised, and at the same time, very proud, to hear the head of Colombia's mining union tell me during a seminar that he would like to see many Canadian companies operating in the country, because Canadian business people not only know about mining, but are also mindful of their social responsibilities. To my mind, that's an important consideration.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Should we pass along your congratulations to Canadian workers?

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Is that all, Ms. Lalonde?

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Yes, that's all. I'd like to leave some time for Mr. Paradis. I believe we have a vote scheduled, Madam Chair.

Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): I have no questions.

[English]

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Ambassador, I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask.

The first question is a simple one. Are we an actor or an intervener in the upcoming peace talks?

My second question is around compliance with the UN and the OAS recommendations, especially the recommendation to address the issue of human rights in the area of forced disappearance, and the veto that the president seemed to.... I think it's about the third veto that has been made on the issue of forced disappearance.

Could you speak to those two issues?

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: With respect to your first question, Madam Chair, regarding whether we're an actor or an intervener, with the arrival of the UN Secretary General's special adviser on Colombia, a move is now under way to seek out the framework for the creation of a group of friends of the peace process, along the lines of what was established in the context of Central America during the 1980s. In that sense, Canada would be an actor if we are invited to be part of that group of friends.

At the current time we are interveners, in the sense that if and when invited we offer our good offices to support the process. But the role of the international community, writ large, is still being defined, and it's being defined at the negotiating table by the insurgents and the government in a fashion acceptable to both.

In fact, when the public consultation structure was inaugurated Canada was one of 15 countries invited to travel to the demilitarized zone and meet with the FARC leadership—which I was able to do—and speak with them about issues of human rights. I think that was a very important step forward.

So in terms of our ongoing role in the process, I think that as outsiders to a conflict in a particular country, we need to wait for an invitation to be active participants. But we need to have a clear understanding of what we can bring to the process when and if we are asked, and we are in that stage right now.

With respect to UN recommendations, and specifically the law on forced disappearance, I should mention that during his visit in January, Minister Axworthy raised this subject with President Pastrana personally and asked him why he had vetoed the law and when he planned to seek potential reintroduction of this legislation to the Colombian Congress.

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The president's response was that there were two articles of the law the government was concerned with, and the government did not have the ability to object simply to the two articles; they needed to object to the entire law to be able to have this redressed back in the legislative chamber. As a function of that, he issued his veto on December 31. He assured Minister Axworthy that once this was addressed in legislative committee in the Congress of Colombia, the law, once it came back out, would be approved and if necessary brought to the constitutional court for interpretation if there were still issues that were uncertain with respect to those two articles or others.

In regard to the two articles, one deals with the issue of genocide in an armed conflict. For example, I believe that the specific objection had to do with the fact of whether there could be prosecutions of soldiers fighting in war in the context of genocide, which the law was unclear on. There is another article that, for the time being, escapes me in terms of its magnitude. The critical issue seemed to be genocide.

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights issued a clarification on the UN convention on genocide in the hopes that that would be sufficient, but the government at that point had already tabled its veto, and the only possibility then was for it to return to Congress.

The president indicated that he would be resubmitting the law to Congress in the March session of the Colombian Congress, which begins in approximately two weeks' time. It is our hope that the president will meet the letter of that obligation and reintroduce the law, because it is an important signal to the international community that Colombia have legislative mechanisms and legal frameworks in place to deal with forced disappearance kidnapping as a crime and that people can be prosecuted for perpetrating such acts in the country.

We have made that opinion known not only to the president but at other levels, such as the foreign minister and other members of the Colombian cabinet. We will be monitoring very closely to ensure that during this session this law is introduced again.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Good. I'm very pleased to hear that. This issue is very important. The acknowledgement by the president and by the government of the abuses I think is important for us and for the international community.

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Yes, it is.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Madame Lalonde.

[Translation]

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Do I have time for one final question?

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Yes.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: Ambassador, would it be possible to provide us with figures on the level of Canadian government investments in Colombia? For example, I'm curious about the overall cost of CIDA operations in the region. Are any other humanitarian aid programs being carried out? EDC investments....

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: I believe so.

Ms. Francine Lalonde: I'd like to know what our investments in Colombia total overall.

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: That's public information. I don't know if we can do it, but it's a matter of compiling these figures and forwarding them to the committee. I think that should be possible. Canada is the second largest foreign investor in Colombia, after the United States. That's why our businesses are well known in the country.

That's also the reason why a total of 80 businesses are affiliated with the Chamber of Commerce in Bogota. Last week, I was in Medillin, the capital of the department of Antioquia, to open a second chamber of commerce branch office. In light of the social development assistance it has provided and its role in the world, Canada is viewed as a important player by Colombia, one that can contribute to the peace process.

Up until now, our presence in the country has been in keeping with our interests in the region. Furthermore, the leadership that we will exercise throughout the world and at the summits to be held here in Canada this year and next year, will put us in a favourable position not only to overcome the challenges present in this region, but also to make a significant contribution to the peace process and to improve the living conditions of most Colombians who only want change and an end to the violence.

Thank you very much.

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[English]

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): I still want to thank you for helping us to understand this very complex situation in Colombia. As Canadian parliamentarians, we're very interested in peace and human rights, and therefore we're interested in the situation in Colombia.

Please communicate—and I'm sure that you do at every possible opportunity—with other parliamentarians, with civil society, and with others the concern that has been expressed by the resolutions the committee has passed and also through your communication with us today. It is a very important issue for us. I think the Colombian officials and all of our contacts there should understand that for Canadian parliamentarians it is a serious issue.

Mr. Guill Rishchynski: Madam Chairman, if you would permit me a final comment, I had the privilege and honour of being asked by the Colombian Congress to address their standing committee on human rights during the month of November, and at that time came into contact with many of your colleagues in the Colombian Congress and the Senate's committee on foreign affairs.

One of the things they asked me to do—because I mentioned to them that you were holding hearings on Colombia at that time, during the latter part of November—was to urge you to please consider possibly visiting Colombia at some point in the future. Your coming to Bogotá for dialogue with your congressional and Senate counterparts in Colombia is something they seek. It's in the context of pan-American parliamentary dialogue, something they welcome very much.

Many of them visited Canada at the parliamentary forum that was held in Quebec City a few years ago, and they would very much welcome, I think, the presence of members of this committee, to be able to sit with them and hear directly from your colleagues and counterparts in Colombia the challenges of the country but also its promise. One thing about Colombia as a country is that its sophistication and its prospects for the future are positive if this peace process can be sustained. I think that vision of Colombia would complement in a very positive way many of the things that have been brought to your committee in the past.

Certainly on behalf of the members of the Senate's foreign affairs committee in Colombia, they would very much welcome your visit. We, as an embassy, would be delighted to host you in Bogotá.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you, Ambassador. We'll pass that on.

I guess it's not adjourned until I use this gavel. There, now we're adjourned.