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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, April 2, 2003

1540

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

The Honourable André Ouellet (President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation)

1545

1550

1555

1600

The Chair

Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance)

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Jason Kenney

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Jason Kenney

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Jason Kenney

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Jason Kenney

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Jason Kenney

Hon. André Ouellet

1605

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

1610

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Hon. André Ouellet

1615

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ)

The Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

1620

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

1625

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Robert A. Gauthier (Manager, Official Languages, Canada Post Corporation)

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Robert A. Gauthier

Mr. Yvon Godin

1630

Mr. Robert A. Gauthier

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

1635

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

1640

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

1645

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

M. Robert A. Gauthier

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

1650

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

1655

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

1700

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

M. Robert A. Gauthier

The Chair

M. Robert A. Gauthier

The Chair

M. Robert A. Gauthier

The Chair

M. Robert A. Gauthier

The Chair

M. Robert A. Gauthier

The Chair

1705

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

1710

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

Le président

Ms. Dyane Adam (Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages)

1715

Hon. André Ouellet

Ms. Dyane Adam

Hon. André Ouellet

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. André Ouellet

Ms. Dyane Adam

Hon. André Ouellet

Ms. Dyane Adam

Mr. Jean-Maurice Filion (Director, Linguistic Services, Canada Post Corporation)

The Chair

Ms. Dyane Adam

1720

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

Hon. André Ouellet

The Chair

CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

NUMBER 018

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Wednesday, April 2, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1540)

[Translation]

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. Ouellet, welcome.

We apologize for the delay, Mr. Ouellet; there was a vote. In view of your experience, you are not unaware that it's a priority for members to discharge their responsibility to vote. We now have the necessary quorum to hear the witnesses.

We thank you for accepting our invitation. I don't remember the last time the Official Languages Committee of the House or the mixed committee invited Canada Post Corporation to come and testify. This is a first for me, and I hope it will not be a last.

We proceed in the familiar way, Mr. Ouellet. We ask you to make your presentation, and you may want to introduce the people here with you, and then the members will ask you questions.

The floor is yours.

The Honourable André Ouellet (President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Committee members, first allow me to introduce my two colleagues with me here today. They are Robert Gauthier, Manager of Official Languages at Canada Post, and Jean-Maurice Filion, Director of Linguistic Services.

On behalf of Canada Post Corporation, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to appear before your committee. We have been informed that you would like to discuss the services Canada Post offers to the public in both official languages and the progress that we have made, under Part VII of the Official Languages Act, in supporting minority official languages communities in particular.

Since we're talking about bilingualism, allow me to make my presentation in English and in French.

[English]

I would first like to share with the committee some interesting facts about our company. Canada Post's vision is to be a world leader in providing innovative physical and electronic delivery solutions, creating value not only for our customers, but for our employees and of course for all Canadians. We deliver nearly 10 billion messages and parcels annually to close to 31 million Canadians, and indeed to over 1 million businesses and public institutions. We employ between 55,000 and 56,000 people. We have more than 6,000 vehicles, which means we are in fact one of the largest transportation fleets in Canada. And as you know, we have some 7,000 post offices, of which 2,700 are managed by the private sector.

[Translation]

So as a key player in Canada's vital communications market, Canada Post's challenge is to provide universal, affordable and secure postal services to all Canadians and, at the same time, keep pace with technological advances to remain relevant in a changing marketplace.

As a federal Crown corporation, Canada Post also has a public policy mandate. Serving customers in their preferred official language and taking measures to enhance the vitality of English and French minority official language communities are two important elements of this mandate.

In order to fulfill this dual mandate, Canada Post must continuously seek innovative ways to increase the range of services and products, in both official languages, that customers have come to expect.

As you have no doubt realized, the Corporation projects a bilingual image everywhere in Canada. Signage on buildings and inscriptions on vehicles are bilingual. Advertising in the media and corporation documentation are in both English and French. Our stamp program clearly reflects Canada's linguistic duality. Customers can access our Internet Web site in the official language of their choice.

Incidentally, I can tell you that the Canada Post Web site receives more than 40,000 visits a day. According to a recent survey, that compares with the busiest corporate sites. Our site compares with those of Sony and Adobe. Our site is much more visited than those of businesses that are in the field and promote their Web sites such as Sears and Future Shop. Not only are we proud of our Web site, but we take very particular care to ensure that it is in both languages and customer friendly.

¹ (1545)

Another way of communicating with Canada Post, of course, is by telephone. There is the 1-800 number, 1-800-267-1177. Of course, Canadians can receive help in their preferred language from Customer Service representatives. To be sure that I was telling you the truth, just before coming to the committee meeting, I dialed the 1-800 number at my office and was given the choice: press 1 for English or 2 for French. And I can say that, scarcely an hour ago, service in both languages was being offered. It's a service offered to the public 24 hours a day.

[English]

We also operate one of the largest retail networks in the country. Approximately 800 postal outlets are designated to provide services to customers in both languages, in accordance with official language regulations. One-third of these outlets are operated by the private sector. We're not the ones who decide; we follow the rule that has been established by the official language regulations.

It is indeed a challenge to make sure these people who have a contractual agreement with Canada Post always follow the clause that requires designated bilingual franchises to provide services to their customers in both languages. Indeed, we monitor this because we want to be sure that, while they sign an agreement with us that they will give services in both languages, they are, like us, depending on the people working for them in their outlets. Sometimes somebody who is the designated bilingual person could be sick or could be away for a short moment. It very often happens that this is when somebody comes in and wants to be served in his or her language, but for a short period of time, there is no person available to do it. Nevertheless, we're doing our utmost to meet this commitment. We repeat constantly to those who represent us and to the franchisees that they have an obligation, and they accept that.

Of course, we monitor this on a constant basis. In fact, in the last few years, we've taken a number of steps to improve the services to customers in the official language of their choice. Some years ago, we hired a firm called Canadian Facts to measure the degree of customer satisfaction with postal services in both official languages. The results were excellent. We also have seized the opportunity to revise our focus on a retail excellence program that incorporates the official language criteria.

¹ (1550)

[Translation]

As a result of all this, we pay careful attention to constantly ensure that on-site and telephone services are bilingual, that visual and oral services are actively offered in both languages, that signage is bilingual, that available documents are in both official languages and that the advertising on our products and services is in both languages.

We conducted an internal audit last year to evaluate the effectiveness of the processes in place, and I must say that we obtained very encouraging results. Interviews were conducted in person and over the telephone in randomly-selected designated bilingual sites across the country, and the results were very positive. The services offered in both languages are bilingual.

However, we were shown that, although things were being well done, improvements were required in our franchises. The audit made six recommendations on this point, highlighting the need, for example, to send semi-annual reminders to outlets about their linguistic obligations and to enhance current assessment tools to measure their performance.

So we have a multi-year action plan that is being implemented, and we are paying very special attention to this.

To give you an idea of the situation, I would say that, a few years ago, we received an average of roughly 300 complaints a year from Canadians through the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages. Since the effort was made to put this audit system in place and tio insist that the program be well implemented, that number has fallen to under 100. Last year, 89 complaints were filed. Obviously we're monitoring this constantly. I can tell you that 10 complaints were received in the first three months of 2003, January, February and March. At that rate, if the trend continues, as we say in politics, there will be only 40 complaints this year, which, once again, is an extremely large reduction relative to last year's complaints.

[English]

In conclusion, I want to say that our initiatives taken to promote Canada's official languages are not limited to our internal and external operations. We're also reaching out to minority linguistic communities across Canada. Under part VII of the Official Languages Act, federal institutions are required to support and assist the development of English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada. Over the years, the Minister of Canadian Heritage, who is responsible for coordinating the implementation of the government commitment in federal institutions, has recognized Canada Post's efforts in supporting the development of minority official language communities.

[Translation]

As you probably know, our cause of choice is literacy. This is the primary vehicle we're using to support minority language communities.

We are also very proud of our Santa letter-writing program. For many years now, hundreds of Canada Post employees have volunteered to respond to letters sent to Santa. Obviously this is done in the country's two official languages. Last Christmas, more than a million children from across the country wrote to us and received a letter from Santa in their language.

For over 10 years, the Canada Post Literacy Awards have honoured individuals, educators and businesses who have promoted the pursuit of literacy. The awards recognize contributions to the cause of literacy and highlight the contribution of minority communities and groups which act in the provinces and territories.

¹ (1555)

[English]

Many of our donations meet the needs of minority official language communities. For example, RECLAIM, an English literacy organization in Quebec, and la Fédération canadienne pour l'alphabétisation en français, a francophone literacy organization outside of Quebec, have received support from Canada Post. Also, as part of things we are doing, we are obviously sponsoring a variety of events that are taking place.

[Translation]

For example, I can say that Radio-Canada recently asked us to sponsor the public taping of the popular television show, La Fureur. Over 10,000 Franco-Ontarians as well as other Francophones and Francophiles participated in what was deemed to be the best Méga Fureur show to date. Everyone who wanted tickets to the event was able to obtain them through the distribution system of our post office network.

We sponsor the Cartes du monde initiative in cooperation with the Fondation Paul-Gérin-Lajoie, in which we encourage children to write in French. Our Web site offers a Cyberquest corner for young people, where children and teenagers can develop their knowledge of their mother tongue and the other official language. We also supported the French for the Future/Le Français pour l'avenir project, which enables students to take full advantage of the opportunities associated with knowing a second language.

Because of its attraction to youth, sports is another area where Canada Post has used sponsorship to promote minority language communities. In 2001, the Corporation was one of the major sponsors of the IVth Games of La Francophonie and, in celebration of that event, issued two commemorative stamps.

[English]

We're also very proud to be affiliated with the federal government in order to make information about government programs and services readily available to all Canadians in their own communities. The service, Canada Access Centres, comprises information from a group of federal government service providers, and Canadians now have access to 156 centres in postal outlets. The self-serve equipment is available in English and French, and therefore provides access for minority-language communities.

[Translation]

That enables me to tell you that the transformation of these small rural post offices into access centres for all types of information is something that encourages us. We are very pleased to be able to offer the public these Canadian government services.

We've also made progress in this area with a certain number of provinces, in particular Manitoba. We are continuing talks with various levels of government, federal, provincial and municipal, so that small local post offices can become gateways, one-stop shops, for a certain number of government, business, financial and obviously postal services.

That, in brief, is what I wanted to tell you. I believe that the steps Canada Post has taken towards meeting its linguistic obligations are a clear indication of our support for the Official Languages Act.

It goes without saying that this is an extremely difficult challenge. We have post offices across the country. We have employees who are constantly in contact with the public. We have to accept everyone's moods and deal with them. I must say that our employees are doing a remarkable job on the whole, and I am very proud to take the opportunity of appearing before you to thank all those who, on the front line or in the back room, are distributing the messages and services we offer the Canadian public.

Thank you for listening and providing us with the opportunity to make this presentation. We will be pleased, my associates and I, to answer any questions you may have.

º (1600)

The Chair: Thank you Mr. Ouellet.

Mr. Kenney.

[English]

Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Ouellet.

I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the franchisees. Just to be clear, did you say that all of your service providers who have a franchise with the corporation are required to provide service in both languages?

Hon. André Ouellet: All those who are in areas that are designated as bilingual are required to do so.

Mr. Jason Kenney: What percentage of all of your service outlets would that represent?

Hon. André Ouellet: In my remarks, I said there were about 800.

Mr. Jason Kenney: I think you said 600.

Hon. André Ouellet: Yes, 600.

Mr. Jason Kenney: What percentage of the total would that be?

Hon. André Ouellet: I'd be delighted to calculate it.

[Translation]

Out of more than 7,000,

[English]

it's less than 10%.

Mr. Jason Kenney: And are there methods for verifying whether or not these services are being provided by the corporation?

Hon. André Ouellet: We have what we call mystery shoppers. They go in and visit, buy some stamps, mail a parcel—

An hon. member: —and buy coins.

Hon. André Ouellet: Yes, they sometimes buy coins, although we don't want these mystery shoppers to spend too much money.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Hon. André Ouellet: Anyway, it's a way to test whether or not the franchisees give the service, have the neat operations, and are able to offer service in both languages if it's a bilingual sector, if it's designated as bilingual. So that's one way.

There is also a second way. We have made a certain number of phone calls to the outlets to ask for information, so we know whether or not there is an employee there who is able to give the information.

So we have these two ways to monitor whether or not the service is given.

Mr. Jason Kenney: Are there ever any problems for service providers outside of those bilingual areas, in terms of customers who have approached them in a language in which they're unable to provide service. How do they try to accommodate that? Do you track those kinds of situations?

Hon. André Ouellet: Indeed, one of the most difficult situations to cope with occurs when somebody travels in another province. If they come to a city and they happen to go to a franchisee who is in an area of that city where indeed it's unilingual, somebody might be denied service in his or her language. But by and large, as I said earlier, there are very few complaints. Of course, any complaint that is presented to the commissioner is reported in the annual report and so on, so we would know.

What is encouraging is that the number of complaints has diminished substantially. Where there were difficulties, we've made an extra effort to try to help those people. If it's in a post office where we have our own employees, we've made arrangements with the unions—although we obviously have to deal with seniority and so on—to make sure that employees get the proper training so that we have people there who are able to give the service in both languages.

º (1605)

[Translation]

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Kenney.

Mr. Bellemare.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Ouellet, let me say bravo. I'm one of your fans. I very much admire Canada Post's strategy. You're doing an excellent job.

I see in the report that, in the area of substantiated complaints, you are headed toward perfection, which is a very difficult thing. There were 94 valid complaints in 1995 and 50 in 2001-2002. You can't ask for better, but you have to be fair. As a Francophone, I defend the Francophone cause because we're always obliged to do so, but I want to be fair toward others.

You have one case in Montreal. Montreal Anglophones working at the main post office, I imagine, complained that they couldn't work in their own language. Are you trying to solve this problem? Second, is that a problem that can be solved, in view of the fact that they are in a very Francophone environment?

Hon. André Ouellet: Complaints have been filed, of course, and the Commissioner's report contains one very encouraging remark for us. As a result of the complaints that were filed, hearings that were conducted, the action plan that was implemented by Canada Post and the Commissioner's recommendations, virtually all those recommendations have been implemented. We have considered it a duty to speak to our postal officers in Montreal so that there is a greater bilingual capability to enable us to ensure that our unilingual Anglophone employees can receive information in their language, that signage is properly provided in both languages and that the supervisors of those people are bilingual.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: You mentioned a key word: signage. I must both congratulate you and thank you on this. It's important because this is the image one has of a place. Anglophones often misunderstand the problem we Francophones have; they believe that, since we are likely to understand and write English fairly well, there shouldn't be a problem. We often hear the comment: “He understands English; he speaks English; he reads English; what's the problem?”

I don't think the question is a matter of understanding the language, but rather of feeling at home, of feeling welcome, especially in the capital. If I go to a place where only the other official language is used, even if I can get along in it, I don't feel welcome, any more than in a Spanish-speaking country where people only speak Spanish. The idea is for there to be a little French so that I feel more welcome.

However, one thing bothers me. You said that services could not be provided in both languages everywhere and that, for practical reasons, that was only done in the designated bilingual regions. I see Ms. Adam, who is sitting behind you, and I am very pleased that she's here; I'm going to be able to get one thing off my mind.

º (1610)

Hon. André Ouellet: We'll have to watch you.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Do you know, Mr. Ouellet, that Ottawa, as a market, is a designated Anglophone region? That may surprise you. On the other side of the river, Gatineau and Aylmer, among others, are part of a designated Francophone region.

The CRTC, which is not here today, but which heard me swear about it, awarded a seven-year contract to CPAC, stipulating that there was only a need to provide English-language programming in Ottawa because the city is designated Anglophone only. Consequently, all the Francophones here and all those you characterized earlier as Francophiles are penalized. Some 45% of the population of the Ottawa region is said to be Francophone, and, as a result of the presence of the public service, approximately 70 or 80% of the people are either Francophiles or bilingual. The Anglophones who live in Aylmer, on the Quebec side, are forced to watch CPAC in French only.

We are in the National Capital Region. This is a serious problem. That's why, when anyone talks to me about designated bilingual regions, I wonder whether Mr. Ouellet won't decide to tell a subordinate that it's no longer necessary to provide services either in French or in English in the National Capital Region because, based on the CRTC's designation of the markets, the Ottawa region is English and the Gatineau region French. How do you respond to that? I hope Ms. Adam is listening to me because this questions puts me in a bad mood.

Hon. André Ouellet: I won't speak for the others, but I can tell you that most, if not all, post offices in downtown Ottawa and in the National Capital Region can provide bilingual services. Virtually everywhere, in my opinion--I don't want to get into hot water here--we have staff capable of serving the public in both official languages.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I thank you and congratulate you at the same time. I received two complaints in my riding this year, and you resolved them immediately. I appreciate that.

The Chair: With your permission, I would point out that a distinction must be drawn between the designations of the CRTC and those of the Treasury Board. When Canada Post says that services are offered in both languages at its retail postal outlets in the designated bilingual regions, those are the regions designated bilingual by the Treasury Board, not by the CRTC. Two different sets of regulations are involved. Moreover, the committee has made a recommendation to this effect to the CRTC. You no doubt remember that, Mr. Bellemare.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: If I was at a hockey game, I would stand up and say the same thing, and you would tell me that that has nothing to do with hockey.

The Chair: That's only to draw a distinction.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I'm dealing with someone who's talking about bilingualism.

The Chair: You may ask a final question, Mr. Bellemare. Then it will be Mr. Sauvageau's turn.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I sit on another committee where we talk about literacy in the work place. You have a literacy program to help the NGOs, I believe. Are there any programs focusing on the development of your employees at your business?

Hon. André Ouellet: Absolutely. The literacy program is not aimed solely at outside people, but also those in the corporation. A few years ago, I attended a certificate award ceremony, and it was very moving because there was a letter carrier who had managed to overcome his illiteracy handicap by memorizing everything. He knew exactly in what boxes he had to put his letters and he could deliver his mail. But at one point, his children had asked him to help them do their homework, and he couldn't do it. Thanks to our programs and our help, he was able to learn to read and write. He told his story at one of our certificate award ceremonies. He was with his son.

These are things we're doing. Often we don't realize that there is a major illiteracy problem. The illiteracy rate in Canada is much higher than we would be inclined to believe. That's why it's become our number one cause. We're often asked for sponsorships of all kinds, and we say that we unfortunately can't do it because we prefer to focus the major part of our sponsorship efforts on literacy.

There we see a link with our field since we deliver the mail, letters, written documents. It's an effort that we support with a great deal of pride and enthusiasm.

º (1615)

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bellemare.

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Ouellet, gentlemen, good afternoon and welcome among us. I'm pleased to see you. You're a regular here, Mr. Ouellet.

I would like to ask you a few questions, but first I want to praise your Crown corporation, although perhaps to a lesser degree than Mr. Bellemare. As part of a program, during my first term, if my memory serves me, I attended one of your daily morning meetings at the office. You must still do that. I don't know whether the service is still offered to parliamentarians, but I very much appreciated that visit in the vessel which somewhat resembled that in Star Trek.

The Hon. André Ouellet: Mr. Sauvageau, I congratulate you and thank you for mentioning that. We would like all members to take a few minutes of their precious time to come, even though I know their schedules are very long and very full. They are all invited to come. It's every morning from 8:30 to 9:00. It doesn't take more than half an hour. On Mondays, however, it's at 11:30.

That's our operations centre and it is linked to our regional centres. That enables us, every morning, to check the volume of mail that was processed during the night, the volume of mail we have in all our main postal facilities at 7:00 a.m. That enables us to see whether there are aircraft or trucks that were to transport the mail during the night but that had breakdowns and are late. That enables us every morning to do a quick review of the situation and take the necessary measures to ensure that, during the day, all the mail that enters our postal facilities comes out and is delivered.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: The other interesting aspect of your visit is that you are the first senior official we have met after the March 31 deadline. We're going to have a concrete example of what happens. Ms. Robillard told us yesterday that senior officials, the EX-4s and EX-5s--we haven't yet got to EX-13, but that will happen one day--had until March 31 to comply with the Official Languages Act.

According to your 2001-2002 report, 30% of executives at Canada Post Corporation did not meet that obligation by March 31. First of all, what does that 30% rate correspond to in absolute numbers? Is it three or 30 persons? How many executives at Canada Post do not meet the bilingualism criteria, and what do you intend to do about those persons?

Hon. André Ouellet: Among the executives, the president and two executive vice-presidents are bilingual. Then there are three senior vice-presidents and the three are bilingual. One is less bilingual than the other two, but we've just had a briefing session where our employees asked questions. He's an Anglophone who doesn't speak French often, but he read his text in French impeccably. Then, a man stood up and asked him a question and, to everyone's surprise, he answered in French very well.

º (1620)

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: They must be nice, but all the same there are...

Hon. André Ouellet: The 30% rate has fallen; it's less than that. There are still a few company directors who will never learn French. However, I don't want to deprive those people, who are going to be retiring in a few years. I must ensure that those who are going to shoulder responsibilities in the future are all bilingual. I have no intention of punishing high-level people at Canada Post. We're going to meet the commitments.

What am I going to do about the four or five who aren't bilingual? Of those five, I know that three are going to be retiring within two years. I'm definitely going to replace them, or the Corporation is going to replace them with bilingual people.

As for the other two, they have a longer career ahead of them. I've already spoken with them, and they will have to stop their jobs and go and take intensive courses in order to become functionally bilingual.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: But don't you think, in this case, that the deadline is a training bonus? Unless they forgot to look at their e-mail and to follow instructions, those directors have known for five years that they had to be bilingual by March 31, 2003, and you punish them by saying: Gilles, Jean-Claude and Diane--I'm using fictitious names because I don't know them--go take French courses for a year or two at government expense. Their punishment is almost a training incentive. Don't you find that a bit paradoxical?

Hon. André Ouellet: In my field, distribution, there are very specific tasks that require a lot of expertise. I'm obviously competing very intensively with multinational corporations which operate in Canada and are not subject to that requirement.

I think it's impossible to ask a senior operations director, who must assume responsibility for the Vancouver or Toronto facility, for example, and who works long hours to become bilingual, unless you remove him from that position and put him elsewhere.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Mr. Ouellet, if he is assigned to a position where bilingualism is not required, he does not have to be bilingual. So if a person works in Moose Jaw or Red Deer, does not occupy a designated bilingual position and is not bilingual, that is not a problem. But if the person works...

Hon. André Ouellet: But the percentage, Mr. Sauvageau, includes a certain number of senior executives.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: All right, but did you just learn on March 30 that a guy working in a designated bilingual position had to be bilingual? First of all, he was hired. I could ask you the following question: how many accountants working for Canada Post were hired even though they were not accountants because they had promised to become accountants one day?

º (1625)

Hon. André Ouellet: There aren't many.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: But why don't we have the same requirement regarding official languages? You hire people who are not bilingual to occupy bilingual positions, and some of them are going to retire in two years. They've had a 30-year career in a bilingual position without being bilingual. They're going to have their retirement party in English only, and they're going to understand each other.

Hon. André Ouellet: I think we're talking about two different things.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: And now there are people who still occupy bilingual positions without being bilingual. There are still three who won't be retiring. You say they've been aware of this for five years, but that you're going to reward them with training in French so that they can then be returned to their positions. If the 200 and some-odd persons who do not yet meet the condition set by the President of the Treasury Board receive this kind of penalty, that's not such a bad penalty.

Hon. André Ouellet: I don't see it that way at all. I think you have to draw a very clear distinction. If a person occupies a bilingual position, deals with the public and must provide services, that person is bilingual. All those persons are bilingual.

What we're talking about are a certain number of senior executives who are deputy ministers, assistant deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers...

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: People at the EX-4 or EX-5 levels.

Hon. André Ouellet: I'm telling you that, at Canada Post, our vice-presidents, our executive vice-presidents and our senior vice-presidents are all bilingual. I have a few general managers who, under the comparative scales with the public service, should be bilingual. You'll agree with me that someone who is responsible for postal operations in Toronto holds a sensitive position that is as important in some respects as that of one of my vice-presidents. But that person is not in contact with the public every day, as my vice-president for communications must be. My vice-president for communications is bilingual, but the guy who's in charge of operations in Toronto or Vancouver may not be.

That's why I'm telling you we'll have to make some adjustments. I don't want to deprive myself of the logistics expert in operations. What do you think will happen if I have to dismiss him? He's going to go to work for my competitor. Here's someone the company has trained, who is an extremely valuable executive for the business, but who the business hasn't given the time or the opportunity to learn French. I take responsibility for that: it's because of me and my predecessors. But I'm telling you that we're going to ensure that, if ever that person continues working in the business and is likely to be promoted, we are going to ensure that he is bilingual, failing which he will not be promoted.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Sauvageau. We'll come back to you.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to welcome you as well. First of all, thanks to Canada Post for issuing the stamp recognizing the Greek community. I thought that was great last week, and I believe the Greek community is quite pleased with it. I attended the ceremony and it was beautiful. They know how to celebrate late, and dinner is late as well.

Another thing I am pleased to learn today is that Santa Claus complies with the Official Languages Act. I wouldn't really have liked to complain to the Commissioner of Official Languages and anger all the children across Canada. At least Canada respects its Santa Claus.

Moving on to a more serious topic, training, what kind of program do you offer, either at a post office or at Canada Post, to an Anglophone who wants to learn French in order to become bilingual?

Hon. André Ouellet: What are the programs? Perhaps Mr. Gauthier could provide you with a brief summary of the programs. We of course spend a lot of money on that.

Mr. Robert A. Gauthier (Manager, Official Languages, Canada Post Corporation): Canada Post deals with language training suppliers. Unilingual employees who occupy bilingual positions and have to serve customers in both languages are required to take a language training program provided by a supplier.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Those courses are paid for by Canada Post.

Mr. Robert A. Gauthier: Correct.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Does the same program exist for Francophones who want to learn English?

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Mr. Robert A. Gauthier: Yes, the program is the same from Halifax to Vancouver.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I'm pleased to learn that because I received a complaint today stating that Fisheries and Oceans had courses for Anglophones who wanted to learn French, but none for Francophones wishing to learn English. Perhaps that's another thing we will examine in our research.

The Chair: Could we know how much money Canada Post allocates to training every year?

Hon. André Ouellet: In 2002, we allocated $528,000 to language training alone.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Does that include training in both languages?

Hon. André Ouellet: Yes.

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Mr. Yvon Godin: They say that people should be able to speak their mother tongue at work, and I believe we all agree on that. However, with regard to customer service, the customer is always right. Services are offered to Canadians in the official language of their choice, English or French.

What is the policy in this area at Canada Post? For example, when you arrive at the window and meet people, you don't see what's behind, but there must be jobs where people never have contact with the public. Are there positions at Canada Post where an Anglophone or a Francophone can work comfortably?

Hon. André Ouellet: I think that, at our postal facilities as a whole, we try to have a pleasant working atmosphere for our employees. Obviously, where there are the two communities, we try to have a bilingual postal facility manager. We try to have a certain number of supervisors who are bilingual and who can manage the employees and speak to them in the language of their choice.

We definitely promote bilingualism in this way at a very low level because many postal employees who, for example, start working as mail sorters aspire to work in a different environment after a certain number of years. Based on their seniority, they can ask to become postal representatives at a counter and serve customers.

So we tell our employees that, if they aspire to that, they have to have adequate language training. For example, I'm in talks with the union to renew the collective agreement. One of the discussion points is to facilitate training for our employees based on this, instead of waiting until a bilingual employee says he wants a particular position. Someone who is unilingual may win a competition for a postal outlet representative position because he has the necessary seniority, but he'll have to go off for six months to take the appropriate courses. During all that time, a bilingual substitute will occupy the position, then the individual who was in training will come back and take over the position. Very often, he is about to retire. So we're constantly changing. We're currently trying, in cooperation with the union, to find a way to establish a little more permanence. We want to prepare those who want to go to work at an outlet by giving them appropriate training so they know how to meet customer needs in both languages, so that when they apply for a job, they'll be ready.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes, but I was asking you a question about the positions whose incumbents have no contact with the public. That leads me to my other question.

This is the situation where I'm from. I don't want to offend anyone, but an Anglophone wishing to obtain a position will normally be hired, whereas a Francophone who wants a position must speak English. Do you have that problem at Canada Post? Here in Ottawa, at Canada Post, there are Anglophones who don't speak French, but there are no unilingual Francophones, are there?

Hon. André Ouellet: I'm aware of the reverse situation in Quebec. In Quebec, we hire people who only speak French, whereas we hire employees who only speak English in certain other regions of the country.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Some regions of Quebec are entirely Francophone and others are 95% Francophone. I'm talking about a region where 40% of the population may be Francophone and 60% Anglophone. What is the policy when a person arrives in a region such as that and only speaks French? Will he or she have as much chance of being hired for a position where there is no contact with the public as a unilingual Anglophone?

Hon. André Ouellet: I get the impression that, in positions where there is no need to work with the public... First, I'm going to tell you something. The amount of recruitment at Canada Post is very small because many of our employees have been there for many years. Over the years, the number of employees working on mail sorting in our facilities has declined because of automation. We now have sorters that sort the mail extremely quickly. There are needs that exist. We hire people mainly in the major urban centres; we hire far fewer in the regions.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You're telling me that you hire people. I'm asking you whether the Francophones you hire must speak both languages, whereas you don't have that requirement for Anglophones. That's the question I'm asking you to answer.

Hon. André Ouellet: There's absolutely no discrimination. We hire people based on their applications. Most of the time, people who have no contact with the public work on coders. As you know, the machines that process the mail quickly are optical readers. If the postal code is not on the envelope, someone has to code it. There are people seated at a desk who add the postal codes. Those people must have good eyesight and agile fingers. Regardless of whether the person is unilingual French, unilingual English or unilingual Greek, if he or she does a good job and codes quickly, we hire them.

The Chair: Thank you. I'm going to ask you a few questions, if you will, then we'll have a second round.

Mr. Ouellet, I read the annual report on Part VII of the Official Languages Act. First of all, I want to congratulate Canada Post for its work. It appears that the Corporation takes seriously the mandate conferred on it by section 41 of Part VII of the Official Languages Act. I also want to mention the fact that its action plan is posted on its Web site. I think that's an example that other departments and corporations could follow. Perhaps we could suggest that at the right time.

I would like to dwell on the question of franchises, postal outlets. I want to make sure I understand correctly. You say that 600 are designated bilingual, is that correct?

Hon. André Ouellet: There are 794 postal outlets that are designated bilingual.

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The Chair: Seven hundred and ninety-four. You say that each of those postal outlets is managed under a contractual agreement.

Hon. André Ouellet: Many of those postal outlets are our own, but 30% of the outlets are private.

The Chair: Those outlets are governed by a contract.

Hon. André Ouellet: They are all governed by a contract.

The Chair: Can you tell us the nature of the linguistic clause in those contracts?

Hon. André Ouellet: I'll read it to you. Article 7 of the contract states:

7.1 The franchisee agrees to comply with each of the elements of the system and to promote and protect the Corporation's reputation and goodwill, trademarks and the system.

He must submit to all of Canada Post's obligations.

Accordingly, the franchisee agrees to the following:

There is a list concerning business operations. Then we come to a clause that states:

7.1.9 hire and ensure the presence of a number of trained and qualified employees sufficient and adequate to properly serve customers, ensure that employees take and successfully complete their initial training program and any additional training program described in article 6.1.1, as well as any other training program necessary in order to comply with this article, the whole in accordance with the standards and requirements of the Corporation in effect at the time;

7.1.10 ...offer the services to the outlet's customers in Canada's two official languages where, in the Corporation's view, bilingual services are required, and to do so at all times in accordance with the standards set by the Corporation;

The Chair: Is the contract the same for all postal outlets?

Hon. André Ouellet: This is the general contract that everyone must sign. By this clause, we reserve the right to say that, because of population changes in a particular area of the city or region, we consider that bilingual service must henceforth be provided and that the franchisee is required to hire staff that can serve the public in both official languages.

The Chair: I imagine there are a number of postal outlets that can provide bilingual services at the outset.

Hon. André Ouellet: Of course.

The Chair: And how do you inform them of this? By letter?

Hon. André Ouellet: Our Canada Post people very often go and see certain merchants in an area because our objective is obviously to serve the public better. Suppose we are interested in opening a retail outlet in a new shopping centre that will serve a large segment of the population. In that case, members of our staff will go and see people who have businesses in that centre to ask them whether they are interested in having a postal franchise and to tell them about the conditions and obligations that that entails. In particular, they say that the postal outlet must be open as long as their business is and that there must be a bilingual person to serve customers. From the outset, there are not supposed to be any surprises.

The Chair: All right.

Hon. André Ouellet: From the start, the person offered a franchise knows the obligations and commitments that must be made toward the public.

The Chair: What are the consequences of breach of contract?

Hon. André Ouellet: If someone does not provide the desired service, we terminate the contract.

The Chair: Has that ever happened over a language issue?

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Hon. André Ouellet: It's already happened over a language question. Mr. Gauthier tells me yes.

The Chair: Can you describe the process for us? I imagine that doesn't happen overnight.

Hon. André Ouellet: Well, I think it happens quite quickly.

M. Robert A. Gauthier: There's a process in place for compliance with language clauses. At the very start, we communicate and meet with the operator and discuss matters. We try to reach an agreement with him, and if that doesn't work, we inform him formally by letter. I believe we send three letters. With the first letter, we give him so many days to comply. We go back and see him, and if the problem is not solved, we send him a second letter. The third time, a little like in baseball, we terminate the contract. That happened quite recently.

The Chair: That's interesting. Do you conduct a systematic check of all bilingual designated postal outlets?

Hon. André Ouellet: As I told you, last year, we implemented a system enabling us to conduct a random audit; some of our employees, whom we call “mystery customers”, make “mystery purchases”. In addition, we conduct a kind of telephone survey of a certain number of franchisees involving questions in both languages.

The Chair: Do you have an idea of the percentage of bilingual designated private postal outlets that meet language requirements?

Hon. André Ouellet: In fact, in our view, it should be 100%. However, as I said at the start, we have to show some tolerance regarding certain difficulties. In one franchise where the traffic rate varies considerably during the day, it is very hard to ask the only bilingual employee there to be present from 9:00 a.m. till 11:00 p.m. Nevertheless, based on our audits, the requirements are met in 95% of cases.

Where they were not, in our audit, we asked why the service was not bilingual. On a number of occasions, it was explained to us that, if we had called half an hour earlier, we would have obtained service in both languages; in some cases, the bilingual employee had gone to lunch.

In our opinion, everyone applies the act in outlets that are supposed to be bilingual.

The Chair: That leads me to my last question. According to information provided to us by the Research Branch of the House, in 2001, the Corporation conducted a survey of designated bilingual postal outlets to determine how many of them were posting the pictogram offering service in both official languages. Only 43% of those that answered--and they didn't all answer--said they had the pictogram in place.

Isn't that a deficiency?

Hon. André Ouellet: Indeed, and that's why the board of directors has given the Corporation very specific instructions, requiring it to review that in detail. I would note that one of our directors, as a result of those events and for other reasons as well, is no longer in his position today.

The board of directors of Canada Post required that all that be reaudited and that all the signs that must be bilingual be bilingual.

In 2002, we requested that a new audit be conducted and we required that it be posted everywhere. We're talking here about not a probable, but a firm commitment. I believe that all our facilities have been audited.

The Chair: Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Before coming back to the questions I asked you, I would like to talk again about questions you have addressed in another context: the postal outlets, the letters sent to franchisees and so on. That's past and closed now, but, even though it's too late, I would like to ask you whether you are tolerant of a post office that has been open for 40 years. Suppose you arrive in a small municipality of 6,000 inhabitants and you tell those people that, in accordance with your new corporate image, everything that is mandatory must be complied with or else you have to close the place.

The small village pharmacies, as we still see, cannot necessarily afford the expense. It's the pharmacist who, between two bottles of pills, hands over the parcels and everything else. That's what we see in some villages.

In my constituency, one was closed four or five years because the owner...

º (1650)

The Chair: Excuse me, but I must point out that we are off the topic. Allow me 30 seconds to explain. We have a mandate here, and that is to see to the implementation of the Official Languages Act. So I would ask you please to address questions related to that mandate.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I'll come back to my question later, but I would like you to tell me whether you are tolerant in such situations.

Hon. André Ouellet: Some franchisees generate substantial income through the sale of stamps, parcels, envelopes, express mail and so on. We obviously ask them to make an effort.

There is a second group whose revenues are lower. In fact, we have three models: A, B and C.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Is there an “other” class of model?

Hon. André Ouellet: You're right; there was an old model dating from the start of the franchises awarded to franchisees. We told those people that they had to adapt to model A, model B or model C, which were designed to serve a given population; very often, the idea was to sell stamps to people in the area. So, under their franchise, they had to respect an area.

Some don't like this situation because it requires them to adopt one of the three models, to take their area into account and to stop selling stamps here and there outside their area.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I understand you, but I nevertheless want to tell you that this is an unfortunate situation for some small villages; we're not talking about turnover of $100,000 here.

Hon. André Ouellet: However, I encourage those who are in that situation to adopt model C; it costs virtually nothing.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Coming back to my issue, in an interview with Radio-Canada this morning, Ms. Robillard told the journalist that the facts were simple: she was going to ask all directors to send her a report on officials who did not meet bilingualism conditions. There are 200 of those officials. The largest number of them, 22, are from Health Canada; there are 15 at another department and three at yours. Those reports will state what measures will be taken with respect to those officials. You've just told us out loud and you're going to do it in writing for Ms. Robillard. Would you agree to send the committee a copy? That way, for example, we could know whether those three persons will receive language training for a year or two, and whether Ms. Robillard finds that acceptable.

Ms. Robillard has asked you, and others, to establish an action plan to determine the measures that should be taken with respect to staff that do not meet language requirements. If possible, I would like you to send it to us.

Hon. André Ouellet: I see no objection to that. I'll of course send my report to my board of directors and definitely to the minister responsible for Canada Post. I assume that the minister will have no objection to transmitting it to the House of Commons Committee on Official Languages.

The Chair: If you wish, you may put the same question to Ms. Robillard, who will be here next week.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I assure you I will; I give you my word on that.

Some positions, such as the EX-4s and EX-5s, are designated bilingual, but there are others as well. How many of those positions are occupied by people who meet the criteria? Are we talking about 40%, 70% or 80%?

Hon. André Ouellet: As I mentioned earlier, unilingual persons who use their seniority rights under the collective agreement to gain access to a designated bilingual position are our main problem.

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Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: In the context of that same union reality, it was said that, at Air Canada, the act prevailed over the collective agreement. I hope that's also the case at Canada Post. Despite that constraint, how many designated bilingual positions are occupied by people who do not meet the requirements of their position?

Hon. André Ouellet: In fact, there are none because we are required to send people who, although incumbents of bilingual positions, are not bilingual, on language training. In the meantime, a bilingual person holds the position on an acting basis.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It's only in senior management where you find designated bilingual positions?

Hon. André Ouellet: When individuals, Anglophone or Francophone, go on training, we assume that they are bilingual when they return. Are they still?

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: You were previously a minister. You know perfectly well that some of your designated bilingual positions are occupied by people who, in some cases, are not bilingual. What is the percentage?

Hon. André Ouellet: They are bilingual incumbents who hold bilingual positions; the number that we have...

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: If it's 100%, I, like Mr. Bellemare, am going to congratulate you.

Hon. André Ouellet: It's not 100%, of course. In actual fact, I have to deal with employees and constraints. Under the collective agreement, seniority rights enable someone to automatically obtain the position. I've begun negotiations with the union; we're trying to review that.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: That answer was like what we hear in the House of Commons. Now may I ask you another question, in view of the fact that you don't want to state the number? Does the Official Languages Act...

Hon. André Ouellet: I'm not at all afraid of stating the number.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: But how many are there?

Hon. André Ouellet: Currently, 25% of people whose positions are designated bilingual are not bilingual.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: What are you going to do about those people?

Hon. André Ouellet: I'm trying to negotiate with the union to make this situation easier, but it's a door that constantly opens and closes. We are forced to train people who don't necessarily want to take training and who don't want to assume their duties. If we could solve this problem differently with the union, the percentage would be 100%. We're currently negotiating to try to find a solution to this problem.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: In your view, what takes precedence: the collective agreements or the Official Languages Act?

Hon. André Ouellet: In my view, the act takes precedence.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: For there to be an agreement, you should put the same question to the union president. Do you think the act takes precedence?

Hon. André Ouellet: Yes, I think the act prevails; however, the head of the union might well tell us that we can enforce the act as long as the seniority rule is obeyed, failing which there will be a grievance.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: It's not possible, since you comply with the act.

Hon. André Ouellet: The collective agreement states that the person who has the necessary seniority is entitled to hold the position. So I'm obliged to give that person the position.

The Chair: Mr. Godin, do you want to ask questions?

Mr. Yvon Godin: I'd like to ask you a question. I'd like to know whether, as is frequently the case elsewhere, when a position at Canada Post is temporary, the Official Languages Act is not really taken into account and it is not determined whether the person is bilingual.

An individual may occupy a temporary position for four or five years and, when that person applies for a permanent job, that person is told he can't obtain the position because he's not bilingual. The individual then wonders why he was acceptable as a temporary employee, when he has to take a bilingualism test for a permanent position. I would like to know what your practices are in this regard.

Hon. André Ouellet: I have trouble understanding the situation you describe, because we in fact have a large number of temporary employees. We have permanent, temporary and casual employees. Those are three types of employees: some work a full day, others part of a day and still others are on an on-call list; they occasionally replace people who are sick or on vacation. These are casual or part-time employees because the latter are subject to the same regulations as full-time employees.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Those who work part time are subject to the same regulations?

Hon. André Ouellet: Yes.

» (1700)

Mr. Yvon Godin: And the casual employees?

Hon. André Ouellet: You're probably talking about casual employees.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Are casual employees subject to the Official Languages Act?

Hon. André Ouellet: If they occupy a designated bilingual position and have to serve the public in both languages, they are definitely subject to the same regulations. But most of our casual employees come to work when there is extra mail, either during the Christmas holidays or at certain times of the night. They replace letter carriers who deliver the mail. In short, in most cases, those persons do not hold designated bilingual positions.

I don't believe there are a lot of casual employees in contact with the public. However, if, after a certain number of years, they become permanent and hold a position that requires them to be in contact with the public, they must of course comply with the same rules.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I would like to clarify a detail, Mr. Chairman. A casual employee occupying a position that is not designated bilingual should therefore not occupy a designated bilingual position.

Hon. André Ouellet: I don't believe so. From memory, I would say that our casual employees work on mail sorting or occasionally replace letter carriers.

The Chair: Mr. Ouellet, the committee spent a good deal of time examining the question of Air Canada, and reference was made to the conflict that exists between, on the one hand, the Official Languages Act and the responsibilities it imposes on Canada Post or Air Canada, for example, and, on the other hand, the notion of seniority appearing in the collective agreements. We put that question to the union representatives who came to see us, and they all agreed that the act had to prevail. If that can be of use to you in your talks, you could perhaps inquire with them to see whether they believe the same thing. We wish you every success. In any case, union-management relations seem to be good.

Hon. André Ouellet: Yes. Everyone agrees on the principle that the act prevails. But it's difficult in practice. We want to comply with the act, but someone who has seniority is going to say that, under the collective agreement, it's his position and we have to give it to him. How do you reconcile that?

The Chair: I have two other brief questions. The first is perhaps for you, Mr. Gauthier. In the action plan for section 41 of Part VII of the Official Languages Act, you say that you've consulted the official language communities. Could you briefly tell me what kind of consultations you have with those communities and how often?

M. Robert A. Gauthier: The Minister of Canadian Heritage is responsible for coordinating the implementation of those activities on behalf of the federal institutions. We cooperate closely with the Minister's office. We regularly attend all the meetings of the national coordinators of the 29 institutions concerned. I am a national coordinator for Canada Post. A meeting is scheduled in Saskatchewan in May to consult the Francophone community, and I will be there. Every time the communities are present at the meetings organized by the Minister of Canadian Heritage, we're there.

The Chair: So they are group meetings.

M. Robert A. Gauthier: Yes, they are often group meetings.

The Chair: Do you talk about the official languages champions?

M. Robert A. Gauthier: No. Canadian Heritage organizes consultations with the communities across the country.

The Chair: By province?

M. Robert A. Gauthier: Yes, by province. It invites the coordinators and institutions to attend, and we are there to get to know them.

The Chair: Do you do that a number of times a year or once a year? How often are the meetings held?

M. Robert A. Gauthier: There are a number of meetings during the year. The communities do not attend every time, but they're generally there. Obviously, there are other individual consultations taking place during the year. That may occur occasionally.

The Chair: My colleague Mr. Bellemare asked a question on the subject the Commissioner raised concerning language of work in Montreal, and you said that you had a number of initiatives under way to resolve that. Could you elaborate a little on that? What is being done to resolve that situation?

» (1705)

Hon. André Ouellet: I must thank the people of the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, who helped us to get a clear idea of the problem and to develop an action plan to clarify the problem. They enabled us to determine the situation exactly and, in particular, they made a series of recommendations for us. As I said earlier, nearly all the recommendations were implemented. Of the 15 recommendations, 11 have already been implemented and four are in the process.

Basically, it's important for us to reestablish dialogue in order to be better understood. We have had meetings with the representatives of the Quebec Community Groups Network to talk about staffing prospects. One of the problems raised was that there is percentage x of Anglophones in the greater metropolitan area, whereas the number of Anglophone employees is much lower. We obviously wanted to talk to that organization to review our staff policies and to ensure, and especially to assure it, that there was no discrimination.

Second, we have conducted a specific recruitment campaign for supervisor positions; 27% of applications came from the Anglophone sector, and we hired 21%. So we have already helped to reestablish the balance.

We have organized awareness sessions with supervisors and employees to ensure there was good understanding. Following an audit, we realized that certain institutions indeed had unilingual French signs. We corrected that. We removed those signs and made sure that signage and information panels were bilingual. That's been done.

We insisted, giving our supervisors very specific instructions that they speak French when talking to a Francophone and English when dealing with an Anglophone. In some cases, that means they must hold two briefing sessions, one with a Francophone group and the other with the Anglophone group. I must say that, in my view, we solved the essential part of the problem.

The Chair: Thank you. Mr. Sauvageau has requested a third round of questions, and, if the Commissioner then wishes to make a comment, we will invite her to do so.

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I have a brief question on staff because you talked about staffing. Twenty-five percent of the designated bilingual positions are occupied by people who have not met hiring criteria. Today, as we speak, to fill a designated bilingual position, do you hire a bilingual person, or do you hire a unilingual person, most often Anglophone, to occupy a designated bilingual position in the hope that that person aspires one day to become bilingual, as in the case of the accountant I spoke to you about earlier? That's my first question, which concerns imperative staffing as opposed to non-imperative staffing.

Hon. André Ouellet: In the case of a bilingual administrative position, we hire a bilingual person. If it's a position governed by a collective agreement, we are required to comply with the collective agreement. And if the person occupies the position under the collective agreement and does not meet the language requirements, we are required to offer training, to give courses and hope that that person will one day be able to play his or her role and be effective in both official languages.

Unfortunately, although 75% of employees meet the language requirements of their positions, 25% do not, because, even after all the efforts we have made, those people, once they reach a certain age... I'm aware that, at my age, it would be difficult for me to learn another language. That's the problem, and that's one of the things we will have to discuss with the unions.

» (1710)

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I'm going to move on to my other question, with your permission.

There are places which, in terms of work, are designated bilingual and where bilingual employees work. I'm thinking of New Brunswick and certain regions of Quebec, for example. Have you ever considered hiring bilingual staff where services are provided to the public, but of establishing unilingual work units, Anglophone or Francophone, where more administrative duties are to be performed?

Suppose I have 28 bilingual Anglophone employees and 25 bilingual Francophone employees. Bilingual customer service is offered in a designated bilingual area. Bilingual service is offered even if the language at coffee break or lunch may be English. If you have a Francophone unit and an Anglophone unit, you respect the designated bilingual areas and people can work in their language. Is that a model that is applied or applicable at Canada Post?

Hon. André Ouellet: I would like it to be, but unfortunately it's not.

I'll give you an example of a very specific case. There are 20 bilingual positions in British Columbia. Only eight of the 20 employees who occupy those positions are really bilingual. That represents only 40% of employees, which lowers my average. So how can I get 20 bilingual persons to go to British Columbia to occupy those 20 bilingual positions?

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I have a solution: you conduct a hiring campaign in the Francophone community, as you did in Quebec.

Hon. André Ouellet: That's not strictly a management question; it's also a union problem.

In actual fact, if I present the situation to the union, they're going to answer me that there are no employees who meet those criteria, that it's impossible to hire from the outside and that we have to hire people from the seniority list.

As I told you earlier, Mr. Chairman, we all agree on the principle: we all agree that the act prevails, but when it comes to putting that into practice, that's another matter.

The Chair: When your negotiations are completed and you've found the answers to this dilemma, you may want to inform the committee members of them. Everything you send us will be welcome.

In addition, if there is a standard contract for the postal outlets, would you be prepared to forward it to us?

Hon. André Ouellet: As you know, we are a company, and we use business contracts which contain a number of business elements, among other things. I admit that I see no objection to citing a few paragraphs to you.

The Chair: We're talking here about elements that concern official languages.

Hon. André Ouellet: I can't submit the entire contract to you.

The Chair: But will you send us the elements that concern official languages?

Hon. André Ouellet: With pleasure.

Le président: Thank you.

Madam Commissioner.

Ms. Dyane Adam (Commissioner of Official Languages, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages): Affiliation: Ms. Dyane Adam (Commissioner of Official Languages) In my opinion, we would be able to answer certain questions asked by parliamentarians concerning the staff of Canada Post Corporation if we had a little more information.

Mr. Godin, for example, asked a question on hiring in bilingual regions and on the number of bilingual positions. I wish to point out that there are also positions that bear the designation “French essential” and “English essential”.

I don't know whether you have the distribution of positions by designation for Canada Post. That would make it possible to determine for the National Capital Region, for example, how many thousands of positions--that's a fictitious figure--bear the “bilingual”, “French essential” or “English essential” designation. In that way, we could actually know, among other things, how many persons can work in French or how many persons must be only Francophone or Anglophone.

In my opinion, those are the statistics that would answer that question. Unfortunately, I don't have them. If I had had them, I could have helped you.

» (1715)

Hon. André Ouellet: We have them. It was from that table that we gave you the information and that I answered Mr. Sauvageau that the rate was 75%. The number of bilingual positions across the country is 3,568. There are three in Newfoundland-Labrador, 10 in Prince Edward Island, 80 in Nova Scotia, 230 in New Brunswick, roughly 1,500 in Quebec, approximately 1,600 in Ontario, some 80 in Manitoba, 40 in Saskatchewan, 63 in Alberta, 20 in British Columbia, zero in the Yukon, two in the Northwest Territories and two in Nunavut. Those are designated bilingual positions.

As I said, we have no reason not to meet the requirements of those positions, which are administrative positions. However, we have difficulty where the positions are bilingual positions occupied by people responsible for customer service and governed by collective agreements.

Ms. Dyane Adam: You probably have another series of statistics on the number of positions. In Montreal, for example, you have bilingual positions, which means that the incumbents must have a given level of knowledge of both languages. You also probably have positions designated “French essential” and “English essential”, and that's very different. In Montreal, you might have truck drivers who are unilingual English because you don't really need to speak or interact in French in order to drive a postal truck.

I'll try to find that information, and your associates may perhaps be able to give it to you, because I believe that should answer your question. It would be interesting to see whether there are positions designated “French essential” and “English essential” in Ottawa, for example. I think that would really answer Mr. Godin's question.

Hon. André Ouellet: We'll take note of that. We're going to review that and send you the information.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I would like to ask another question. Are there positions designated Francophone only in Vancouver, for example? Are there positions designated Anglophone only in Montreal?

Hon. André Ouellet: There are no English only positions or French only positions as such; there are bilingual positions. And for the others, they are Canada Post employees.

Ms. Dyane Adam: I don't want to contradict the president, but you have “French essential” and “English essential” positions.

Hon. André Ouellet: When you say “French essential”, what does that mean? Does that mean they are exclusively French?

Ms. Dyane Adam: The incumbents must be at least Francophone. The individuals may be bilingual, but French is essential. There are positions designated “French essential” and “English essential”. In that case, the individual may be competent in French or in English. I believe you have those positions at your corporation.

Mr. Jean-Maurice Filion (Director, Linguistic Services, Canada Post Corporation): The department's translators... [Editor's Note: Inaudible]

The Chair: We will distribute that to the committee members.

Is there anything else, Madam Commissioner?

Ms. Dyane Adam: With respect to language of work, I noticed that, among Canada Post Corporation's requirements and obligations, four concern the act.

There is service to the public, of course, and I believe the witnesses spoke about that very well.

There's also the question of compliance and the rate of Anglophone and Francophone participation, and we see that measures have already been taken at the Corporation to resolve the question of the participation of Anglophones in Quebec, which remains a concern.

Of course, there remains Part VII and language of work. It's really the language of work question that concerns executives, and that's what we're talking about today because of the March 31 deadline. Executives have an obligation to be bilingual in order to comply with employees' right to be supervised in the language of their choice. I believe that's sometimes forgotten. Considerable emphasis is placed on the needs of the clientele and the Canadian public, but employees also have rights. Apart from their professional skills, executives must also have language skills since working also means interacting with employees.

As the Chairman mentioned, the situation in Montreal is still improving. We are awaiting the findings of an investigation on the subject, but the situation is improving.

» (1720)

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Hon. André Ouellet: Mr. Chairman, with your permission, we could give you the figures immediately. I told you a moment ago that there were approximately 3,600 bilingual positions. There are 32,300 essentially English positions. The percentage of bilingual positions is six percent, that of the positions designated “English essential” is 59%, and there are 3,760 positions designated “French essential”, which represents roughly seven percent. There are 15,700 French or English positions, which represents 28%. That comes to a total of approximately 56,000 employees, as I told you at the outset.

In New Brunswick, there are 236 bilingual positions, 300 English only positions, 15 French only positions, 715 either/or positions, for a total of approximately 1,300 employees.

The Chair: Do you have figures for all the provinces?

Hon. André Ouellet: Yes, we have them for all the provinces.

The Chair: Will you send us a copy of that document?

Hon. André Ouellet: Yes, I can give you a copy.

The Chair: That's fantastic. On that, we're going to close the meeting.

Mr. Ouellet, I don't know whether my colleagues will jump at me if they don't agree--it wouldn't be the first time--but allow me to tell you that, over the months and even years, we have received agencies, departments and Crown corporations here and that we sense in Canada Post and its associates a sincere desire to comply with the Official Languages Act. We also sense that real efforts have been made. So allow me to congratulate you and to encourage you to continue and to achieve perfection.

Hon. André Ouellet: Thank you.

The Chair: I wish you all a good evening.

The meeting is adjourned.