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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, March 25, 2003

0910

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault (Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade)

0915

0920

0925

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon (Director, Human Resources Policy and Strategic Planning, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade)

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ)

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

0930

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.)

0935

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Raymond Simard

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Raymond Simard

Ms. Marielle Doyon

0940

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

0945

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

0950

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Mr. Marion Ménard (Committee Researcher)

The Chair

Mr. Marion Ménard

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher (Senior Coordinator for Federal-Provincial Relations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade)

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

0955

1000

1005

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Claude Boucher

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Claude Boucher

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Claude Boucher

1010

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Claude Boucher

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

1015

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Claude Boucher

Mr. Raymond Simard

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Marielle Doyon

1020

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Claude Boucher

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Claude Boucher

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

1025

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

1030

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

The Chair

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

1035

Mr. Claude Boucher

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Claude Boucher

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Claude Boucher

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault

1040

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Marielle Doyon

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Ms. Marielle Doyon

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

1045

The Chair

Mr. Claude Boucher

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

NUMBER 016

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, March 25, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0910)

[Translation]

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Ladies and gentlemen, I declare the meeting open. This morning we will be hearing from three representatives of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. Two of them are here, Gisèle Samson-Verreault, Assistant Deputy Minister for Human Resources, and Marielle Doyon, Director, Human Resources Policy and Strategic Planning. I am told that Claude Boucher, Senior Coordinator for Federal-Provincial Relations, will join us at 10 o'clock.

I believe that our clerk and researcher have told you why we would like to hear from you this morning. We are looking at the whole issue of immigration to Canada in the context of Canada's linguistic duality, and a number of issues have come up at previous meetings about the role of DFAIT, especially in our missions abroad, concerning how people are treated who want to come to live in Canada and how to encourage immigration by francophones and anglophones. So we would like to have an overview of how the department does its work, in practice, in these areas.

We will proceed in our usual way. We will first ask you to make a presentation and then we will have a question and answer period. There may be more questions from the government side than from the opposition this morning, since Mr. Sauvageau is the only opposition member here. Your colleagues will give you a hand.

You have the floor, Ms. Samson-Verreault.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault (Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade): Good morning, Mr. Bélanger, members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen. I am pleased to be appearing before you this morning to describe the official languages program at Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

I would like to introduce Marielle Doyon to you. Given that I have been with the department only for the past two and a half months, I probably need Marielle's help this morning. As you mentioned, Claude Boucher, who is the department's Senior Coordinator for federal-provincial-territorial relations, will be with us at 10 o'clock. He is at a meeting this morning with official language minority communities. That meeting had been planned for several months in order to discuss their concerns and priorities.

[English]

I will address this morning the four major things mentioned in your invitation: the role DFAIT plays in implementing part VII of the Official Languages Act; how our diplomatic missions abroad demonstrate Canada's linguistic duality; the use of French and English in the websites of foreign missions accredited to Canada; the role DFAIT can play in the task force that was established by Minister Coderre.

[Translation]

Mr. Boucher's presentation at 10 o'clock will deal with the first and last of those issues.

[English]

Before we go specifically into the four questions we have been asked to address, I would like to cover two items. The first is the overall departmental context of the department.

[Translation]

Because of our mandate both here in Canada and abroad, our department is a bit different from the others, and I would like to explain the context in which we work.

[English]

The second is how DFAIT is meeting its official languages objectives in language of work and service to the public.

Let me start by describing the department's human resources context.

[Translation]

We have three types of employees in the department: rotational employees, as we call them, non-rotational employees and locally recruited staff.

[English]

Of our 9,000 employees world-wide over half, 5,073, are locally employed staff members in our 164 missions around the globe.

[Translation]

It was interesting that I was invited here today, since I just got back Sunday evening. As I told you, I am new in my position, and I went to visit the embassies in Tokyo, Beijing and Hanoi last week. I can tell you a little about my experience later.

[English]

I have to say I was very struck by one thing at one of the management committees I attended.

[Translation]

I attended a management committee meeting in Tokyo, and it was interesting. There were 12 or 13 people, and only half the managers were from DFAIT. The other half was composed of people from the Immigration Department, and one person each from National Defence, Agriculture and Finance.

[English]

Some 60% of our locally engaged staff work for other government departments, particularly Citizenship and Immigration Canada and CIDA. In fact, over half the staff members of our missions abroad are not employees of DFAIT. Also, needless to say, the majority of our clients are abroad.

The other piece of information I found very interesting is that DFAIT plays the role of a central agency abroad. What this means is that it is basically Public Works overseas. To use CIC as an example, we hire their local employees and we manage the space they occupy. However, it's important to note that we are not involved in their program delivery.

[Translation]

The second point I would like to address this morning is how the department has delivered the official languages program in the area of services to the public and language of work.

Let's start with service to the public. All our services to the public, both abroad and in Ottawa, are offered in both official languages, whether in writing, through e-communications, phone services or services offered in person. In order to do so, 382 non-rotational employees have the ability to offer services to the public in both official languages in the National Capital Region.

As for our services abroad, 84% of our foreign service officers and 64% of our management and consular service officers are bilingual. At all times, the Canadian employees or the locally employed staff have available the tools they need to refer the client to someone who speaks that client's official language.

I would now like to address the language of work. Both official languages are used as language of work depending on each person's preference. All corporate services are bilingual, whether human resources, finances or asset management. Supervision of employees is done in the employee's language of choice. Eighty-five per cent of our managers are bilingual, 83% of our foreign service officers are bilingual, and 64% of our consular service officers are bilingual.

Those two major aspects of the official languages program are mainly fulfilled because during the recruitment process we try to get a reflection of the language composition of both official language groups in Canada: 65% of our employees are anglophones and 35% of them are francophones.

I must add that one of the attributes that struck me upon my arrival at DFAIT was the strong level of backing that exists for bilingualism, and the extent to which both official languages are used regularly and widely. I would like to add that I've been back in the public service for a year now after five years in the private sector. During my five years in the private sector, in a high tech company in Ottawa, things were done in English 99.9% of the time. So, coming back to the public service at the Department of Foreign Affairs is like a homecoming because as I said in my notes, that department is rather bilingual.

According to the results of a 2002 department-wide employee survey, high approval ratings were given concerning all matters relating to official languages. The vast majority of DFAIT respondents to the survey voiced their strong satisfaction with the bilingual environment that exists at work, the ease with which they have access to materials in both official languages, and the support that exists for communicating in their language of choice, either orally or in writing. It can be said that DFAIT reflects and executes the intention Parliament had when it passed the Official Languages Act.

I would now like to address the four questions you raised.

The first is the role of the department in implementing part VII of the Official Languages Act. As you may already know, the department was one of the key organizations named by cabinet in 1994 to promote part VII of the Official Languages Act. Mr. Boucher assumed responsibility for its implementation in November 2002, and he will be addressing the committee on how the department proposes to enhance its efforts to assist official language minority communities.

I wish to emphasize that, since 1994, DFAIT has contributed energetically to the development of the communities. We have worked actively to promote our bilingual nature abroad and have financed the participation of members of these groups in cultural and educational events abroad.

¿ (0915)

For example, we assisted New Brunswick financially to participate in international Francophonie events, and have both hosted and attended Francophonie events. Several years ago, the Prime Minister welcomed Francophonie leaders in Moncton and barely two years ago we were a key player in hosting the Francophonie Games here in the national capital region.

Now, in 2003, I am pleased to indicate that a new approach has been adopted to further the initiative announced in 1994 to assist the communities. Our ministers have recently signed a funding agreement with the Minister of Canadian Heritage for $1.5 million and Mr. Boucher has met with the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadiennes du Canada and will also be meeting with the communities to determine their priorities.

¿ (0920)

[English]

This is, in fact, where Mr. Boucher is this morning.

Let me now speak to the second theme, how our missions abroad demonstrate Canada's linguistic duality. The majority of our foreign service staff are qualified, at the very least, at the CBC level. In fact, our new recruits to the foreign service are trained to the CCC level before appointment.

[Translation]

I would like to add a word about how we work. When recruiting foreign service officers, our offer is conditional to the candidates' meeting the CCC language requirements. We give them a period of 12 months to attain that level.

If they don't meet the language requirements, we send them to language training for 12 months but after that period, because the offer is conditional, if they don't meet the requirements of the position, we must then withdraw our offer.

[English]

Every mission is required to provide services in both official languages. In our annual report on official languages submitted to the Treasury Board Secretariat in May 2002 we indicated that of the 887 DFAIT employees assigned abroad 74% were recognized as bilingual, including 84% of foreign service officers and 94% of our executive cadre.

Our department has a strong commitment to training. We have established and finance our own official languages school, largely to help foreign service and administrative service officers acquire the necessary competence in their second official language. Our Canadian Foreign Service Institute offers a variety of programs to other employees as well. Demands are high and often outstrip availability, so innovative solutions are being put in place. For example, employees abroad and in Canada now have access to training through on-line or virtual campus programs, training outside working hours, and part-time maintenance training. Locally engaged staff abroad have also been provided with learning tools through the virtual campus and access to local language training institutes to assist them in learning a second official language. It should also be mentioned that other departments have taken note of our department's innovative approaches. For example, the Public Service Commission has requested our assistance, as the initiators of the virtual campus, with a highly successful official languages on-line testing at a distance project.

Let me now turn to the third topic we have been asked to speak on, the use of English and French on the website here and abroad. Our answer is quite simple: websites both here and abroad must be in both official languages. You may be aware that the Commissioner of Official Languages recommended that websites of foreign missions accredited to Canada be bilingual. We fully support this recommendation, as it would allow all Canadians to consult these sites. Unfortunately, foreign missions are not subject to the requirements of the Official Languages Act, and we can only exercise persuasion with them. The chief of protocol has written to the heads of all foreign missions accredited to Canada and encouraged them to have bilingual sites.

With respect to the partnership between Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the francophone minority communities steering committee, Monsieur Claude Boucher will be pleased to accept the opportunity to participate.

¿ (0925)

[Translation]

In conclusion, I would like to add that the department tries in all ways to show and promote Canada's bilingual character. Doubtless there is room for improvement, but I must say that we, at the department, are rather proud of our results. Thank you.

The Chair: Ms. Doyon, do you want to add anything?

Ms. Marielle Doyon (Director, Human Resources Policy and Strategic Planning, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade): No.

The Chair: So we'll go to questions and when Mr. Boucher gets here we'll resume with the presentations.

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Good morning, ladies. Welcome back to the public service and our ranks, Ms. Samson-Verreault. I have a lot of questions but I'll try to start with those that are of more concern to you.

You are the assistant deputy minister in charge of human resources. The President of Treasury Board, in order for the Official Languages Act to be respected and the requirements of bilingual positions met, demanded that senior officials meet the prescribed deadline of March 31.

Do you think that your department will be able to reach that goal? Besides that, what are your policies or what is your intent concerning those who, unfortunately, don't meet the requirements by March 31?

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I told you at the beginning that our department was a bit different from the others and this explains, in part, why 85% of our executives are bilingual. Under an agreement, those who are abroad are given an exemption by Treasury Board Secretariat. As soon as they come back to Canada, on the other hand, they're sent off on language training.

There's also an agreement under which those who are abroad for a period of two or three years cannot stay abroad any longer unless they meet the CBC (language rating levels) language requirement. Otherwise, we bring them back to Ottawa to send them off on language training.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: So under that policy, as of 31 March, those employees who must meet the bilingualism requirements will meet them. Otherwise, if they are abroad, they will be recalled. You have implemented policies to that effect, right?

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: Yes.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: That's really very good.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I can give you a bit more detail, if you wish.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Then it will have to be very brief because we only have five minutes.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We can skip to something else if you wish.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Fine. I have here a copy of a letter on which I would like to get your comments and suggestions. It was sent by the Consulate General of Canada in Guangzhou; I will summarize some of its contents. This is what the Consul wrote to one of my constituents:

I would like to assure you that the consulate is ready to provide services in both official languages of Canada to our clients. Our receptionist is trilingual and in those cases where she is on leave or otherwise absent, those people replacing her are to ask our clients to wait a moment while one of the Canadian officers is being reached to help the client in the language of that client's choice. However, I must recognize that we have a small complement of Canadian officers.

That is something like the written instructions you get from IKEA when you try to put their stuff together. Do you consider such a letter be in conformity with the Official Languages Act simply because it is written with French words or that, on the contrary, it does not meet the requirements of the act because it is not really written in French?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Your question has to do with the quality of the language in the document. Isn't that it?

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Indeed.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: I agree with you that there are some failings. However, you must understand that our embassies abroad do not have translation services on site. So they do the best they can.

On the other hand, when they have enough time available, the documents are sent to Ottawa where a team of revisors add some polish to the text, in a matter of speaking.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I recognize that the Consul General is full of good intentions when he writes this himself or has the work done by someone in his office. But when you do not have the competence to do this, wouldn't it be possible, with the Internet, to e-mail the letter to the Canadian Embassy in Peking, for example, to ask... I think it is unacceptable for our constituents to be getting this sort of thing and be told that the Official Languages Act has been respected and therefore everything is legal. If a letter were written in comparably poor English, that would not be any more acceptable, and perhaps it would stand out a bit more.

My other question was for Mr. Boucher, but I will put it to you anyway. At the Department of Foreign Affairs, there is an obligation to respect the Official Languages Act. At some point, pursuant to the commissioner's recommendations, you were asked to make representations to foreign embassies in Canada. As for our Canadian embassies abroad, I looked at the website yesterday and from what I saw, they all respect the Official Languages Act. As for foreign embassies here, I know that this does not fall under our jurisdiction, and that they have immunity, but we can encourage them to do that also. Do you personally know if there are things done in your department to encourage foreign embassies in Canada to respect Canadian legislation?

I will give you an example. Such services should not be too expensive. The U.S. Embassy in France has a website in French, naturally. The U.S. Embassy in Canada has a unilingual English website. If they linked the two of them, it seems to me they would be acknowledging our duality at a minimal cost. That is an example, but I could give you others. Is anything done to encourage the embassies in this respect?

¿ (0930)

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: We brought a copy of the letter we sent to every embassy in Canada, inviting them to have a site both in English and in French. We could give that to you.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Could you send a copy of the responses to the letter to the committee if that is allowed or diplomatically permissible? Oh, it's not?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: That would be difficult. I think that if we did so, we would have to let the embassy know that we will show their letter to the committee.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Was the same approach taken for the international institutions Ms. Adam alluded to and which Canada, a country with two official languages, contributes to? These institutions have posted employment notices for people whose mother tongue is English, which penalizes many Canadians, not only francophones, but also other Canadians. So, despite the fact that we pay annual dues to these institutions, we do not ask them to respect our legislation. Has the same request been made of these institutions, which Canada belongs to?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: I know exactly which complaint you are referring to. We contacted the international organizations which are headquartered in Canada and asked them to withdraw references to mother tongue in their employment notices and to replace them with references to language skills in Canada's two official languages. We also asked ICAO, which is based in Montreal, to respect our legislation by operating in Canada's two official languages.

As you know, we are not responsible for these organizations, but we nevertheless belong to them. That is why we make sure that our ambassadors to the UN and to UNESCO speak alternately in English and in French. Our representations are made in both official languages as often as possible. Furthermore, we ask that international organizations which count English and French as part of their official languages—sometimes these organizations have a third or even a fourth official language— respect Canada's two official languages.

We are working particularly hard with the Organization of American States to support French. We are probably the country which has the most French speakers. We also met with representatives from the Translation Bureau, and asked them to make available the Bureau's computerized lexicon, that is, Termium, which helps English and French translators and revisors in their work, and that Termium also be enriched with some Spanish terms. Work is going ahead on the project, which is financed by Canada—

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Sauvageau and Ms. Doyon.

Mr. Simard, are you ready?

Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.): Not quite, but I will still go ahead with my questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome, Ms. Samson-Verreault and Ms. Doyon.

I would like to ask a question with regard to the role we play in promoting linguistic duality. I don't suppose that this responsibility is limited to language only. You also have to be familiar with Canada as a whole, its linguistic minorities, the places they live and other such issues. Do our foreign embassies promote French-speaking regions in Canada?

I would also like to know whether this factor is taken into consideration when people are hired? Do you know, for instance, how many francophones living outside Quebec work in your department? One of the things we regularly hear is that the representation of francophones living outside Quebec is rather weak.

¿ (0935)

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I can answer the second question and my colleague can answer the first.

In answer to the second question, let me say that we have just finished our recruitment campaign for the foreign service. We organized competitions and held interviews in Montreal and Vancouver and in other cities, if my memory serves me well. We are aware of the problem you raise and that is why we are trying, insofar as we can, to recruit candidates from across the country.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: As for the representation of Canada's linguistic duality in our embassies, I would just like to note that we have brought the annual report on part VII which I can table a little later on.

To meet the objectives contained in part VII, we try as best we can to meet with certain groups and, if they are interested in going abroad, we try to send them. But I have to admit that in the past, we focused mostly on culture and specific events which had an economic aspect to them. We invited these groups to perform abroad.

Last week, as you know, was the Francophonie week. In every embassy which had a connection to French, even our embassy in Vietnam, we organized events and invited people to performances and representations.

Much of our work is concentrated on these types of events, which may involve having theatre companies perform abroad or organizing similar types of representations. Mr. Boucher, for his part, provides funding; his job is to see whether we can help these communities. Of course, there is also Team Canada which travels abroad. When a Team Canada trip takes place, every province is consulted and may send representatives along.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I would just like to add that last week, as I said earlier, I was in Tokyo and Vietnam. My timing was good, because it was the Francophonie week. One evening was dedicated to French literature and a Quebec author, Louis Émond, read from his novel. It was very interesting.

Mr. Raymond Simard: I presume that part of the job of a foreign embassy is to promote minority communities living outside Quebec. Do you feel that our staff know enough about minorities living outside Quebec, their dynamism and the particular characteristics of the places they live?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: As we were saying a little earlier, we have a program for young foreign service officers; one year into their training, they travel across Canada for four or five weeks. The point of this trip is to have them meet with minority groups, and not only minority language groups, but also ethnic and aboriginal groups.

We want to make sure that our officers clearly understand that Canada is a diverse country, and we want them to be aware of the realities and problems these regions face. This trip gives them the opportunity to see with their own eyes the concrete reality of Canada's linguistic duality and cultural mosaic.

Mr. Raymond Simard: I have a final question, Mr. Chairman. The Dion plan contains an accountability framework. This is obviously very important for us.

Mr. Boucher can probably answer this question. Do you think it is a good plan and that it will help support your linguistic duality policies?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We were actively involved in developing the Dion plan. Our deputy minister was on the deputy ministers' committee and our Secretary of State for the Francophonie, Mr. Paradis, was also involved in the creation of the Dion plan.

With regard to the department per se, there is no doubt that it is very enthusiastic about the plan, for two main reasons. We will probably get more resources to train our employees in both official languages. Funding has been announced for that purpose. Further, in my view, the plan has helped to define more clearly the meaning of part VII of the Official Languages Act. For these reasons, we proposed that a full-time coordinator work on these issues.

¿ (0940)

Mr. Raymond Simard: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: Mr. Bellemare.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is very reassuring to see two young people with so much experience.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: Did you say “young”? Thank you very much.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Congratulations, Ms. Doyon, and congratulations to you as well, Ms. Samson-Verreault, on having been appointed assistant deputy minister.

In your opening statement, one sentence left me feeling funny and I would like to ask you a question about it. You said, and I quote:

Unfortunately, foreign missions are not subject to the requirements of the Official Languages Act and we can only exercise suasion with them.

I imagine that the expression “foreign missions” refers to embassies. Is this a term you use? I don't quite understand the meaning of this sentence.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: Let me explain the sentence in its context. In this case, we were referring to foreign embassies in Canada.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Oh, I see.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: These embassies are not subject to the Official Languages Act, and that is why we cannot require them to have a bilingual website.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Very well. Now to my second question.

Senior officials within the public service have until the 31^st of this month—we are already the 25 ^th— to meet the linguistic requirements of their position. Otherwise, they will be transferred to another position. Does every official in your department meet these requirements?

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I had already provided some information with respect to that subject to Mr. Sauvageau. If you wish, I can continue and may in that way answer your question.

So, as I was saying, 85 p. 100 of EXs meet the requirements of their position, which obviously implies that 15 p. 100 of them do not. However, 5 p. 100 of these officials have been given an exemption—which I referred to earlier—because they are abroad.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: You have given us percentages, but can you provide us with the figures?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: I just want to point out that this is a temporary exemption. They are exempted until they return home; it is not a lifetime exemption. That has to be clear.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: They are exempted as long as they are abroad. But as soon as they come back to Ottawa, they will receive language training. Here is a breakdown of the 15 p. 100 who do not meet the requirements: 5 p. 100 are presently taking language training, 3 p. 100 will retire shortly and 2 p. 100 are on unpaid leave.

The Chair: In answer to Mr. Bellemare's question, can you provide us with the figures rather than the percentages?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Of the 43 people who do not meet the requirements, 19 are posted abroad and 24 are here. Of the 24, two are temporarily exempted. You should know, however, that when a person has a non-imperative EX designation, this person has two years to meet the language requirements. Two people are presently in this situation and six others will retire.

I think I have covered everyone. But they are also the people who are taking language training; if I recall correctly, there are about 13 or 14 people and that number goes up every day because language training is in very high demand these days. So, some people are still waiting, but the Public Service Commission has promised us that there would be no more waiting lists. Nevertheless, as it now stands, very many people are waiting to receive language training.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: If I understood correctly, EXs posted abroad are not affected by the requirements until they return to Canada.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: That's correct, there are 19; the others meet the requirements.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: What happens to these 19 people if we suddenly decide that they are not to returning to Canada, but that they would instead be sent from Japan to Switzerland or elsewhere?

¿ (0945)

Ms. Marielle Doyon: That's not possible because of the measures we have adopted. The Treasury Board Secretariat gave us this exemption which, I would like to remind you, is temporary and based on the condition that at the end of their posting—they must complete it, because it is very expensive to repatriate someone—we will make sure that they will not receive another posting until these people have first come back to Ottawa for language training.

Since last year, we have also made sure that no EX is posted abroad if he or she is not at the CBC language proficiency level. Further, anyone coming back to Canada cannot get a position, even within the central administration, before having completed their language training.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: You are with Human Resources, aren't you? Are there EX-1s who do not meet the language requirements of their position and who were told they had to meet them before March 31, but who had already been promoted to an EX-2 or EX-3 position?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: There is one such case and we are studying it because the person in question is receiving language training. We decided that we would give this person a chance unless we received evidence that he or she could not meet the requirements of the position. I think the person still has one month of training left. Then this person will be tested and if the person does not meet the language requirements of the position, he or she will be removed and transferred to another position because in the letter this person was sent, we stated clearly that linguistic competence was a condition of employment.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: If the person is promoted from an EX-1 position to an EX-2 or EX-3 position, he or she will have to fulfil the new position's requirements. Failing that, would this person be transferred to another EX-2 or EX-3 position, or will the person stay at the EX-1 level?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: The person will be transferred to another category, because all our EXs must be at the CBC level. Therefore, this person would be transferred to another occupational category. This person would be demoted. We try to avoid situations leading to a loss of income, but these people would not be eligible for performance pay anymore, something which is available to all EXs.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Are these simply good intentions, or is there a deputy minister who is extremely demanding and who has decided that there will be no exceptions and that this is the way it will be?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Yes. We will meet with the deputy minister on Friday afternoon and conduct a follow-up. We have three deputy ministers.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I have to say that our three deputy ministers are very demanding with regard to this issue.

The Chair: Thank you.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask a couple of questions.

I would like to come back to the letter you sent to foreign missions in Canada. You will give a copy of this letter to the clerk so we can distribute it to every committee member. Can you tell me when the letter was sent?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: On April 26, 2002.

The Chair: Thank you.

Have you drawn up a list of the responses you have received?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Yes. We received about five replies.

The Chair: How many letters were sent out? How many missions are there here?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: That's a good question. If you want to know, we can send you this information.

The Chair: I'm interested in finding out who did not reply. You only received five replies in one year?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We received five written replies, including a couple of e-mail responses. We would have to ask those people if they wish to share what they wrote.

The Chair: Does the department intend to press its case once more?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Yes. I don't know if you know anything about diplomatic life in Ottawa, but there are often meetings, and Mr. Rick Kohler takes every opportunity at such meetings to convince people of the merits of having a website in two official languages. It's not just because we have such legislation; it's also because we have a francophone population which may be interested in reading what is on the site. Mr. Kohler does this regularly.

¿ (0950)

The Chair: Who is Mr. Kohler?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Mr. Rick Kohler is our chief of protocol. He is in charge of helping diplomatic missions establish themselves in Canada. He looks after visiting delegations and protocol at various ceremonies.

The Chair: Of the five replies you received, how many agreed?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Some agreed and others said it was a question of money because they would have to pay for translation. Others asked us if Canada had thought about the fact that other countries also have more than one official language. Take, for instance, Great Britain, where you have Scottish and Gaelic and so on. We were asked if we would be willing to do the same thing. Some agreed immediately, while others...

The Chair: Could you also share these letters with us?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Well, I don't really have anything to do with protocol. I would rather transmit your request to Mr. Rick Kohler, who is the one who received these letters. Also, the people who wrote them must be asked whether they would be willing to share their replies.

The Chair: To change the subject, who is the departmental champion?

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I am.

The Chair: You are not responsible for the fact that there was no action plan developed or tabled for fiscal 2000-2001. Who was the champion at that time?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: It was Ms. Suzanne Laporte, who was Assistant Deputy Minister for Human Resources.

The Chair: Why did the department not prepare an action plan for fiscal 2000-2001, as required by cabinet?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: As far as I know, last year, for the first time, Heritage Canada asked us to prepare an action for the implementation of part VII. That is when we began having discussions within the department to establish who would be responsible for its implementation and we concluded that we needed a full-time coordinator for the implementation of part VII — which explains Mr. Boucher's presence.

The Chair: Are you saying that before 2001-2002, there was no action plan?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We received basically every application put in by minority communities and we studied them individually. We tried to address every application, but we did not really have a plan of action.

The Chair: You say that you studied these applications. What kinds of applications were involved?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Well, for instance, a folk music ensemble from New Brunswick may have wanted to perform in northern Belgium and asked us for funding, or, sometimes, international organizations got involved.

The Chair: Thank you. I have two other questions and then we will move on to Mr. Boucher.

When our researcher was preparing his note, he still not had received the plan for this year, or so I think. Have you received it by now?

Mr. Marion Ménard (Committee Researcher): Yes, that has been done.

The Chair: Could we get a copy of the plan, or would you be willing to discuss it?

Mr. Marion Ménard: My office received it Friday morning. It's on the website.

The Chair: We could distribute it to committee members so they can get an idea of what it looks like.

There is a francophonie branch within the department, isn't there?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Yes.

The Chair: What is this branch called?

Mr. Claude Boucher (Senior Coordinator for Federal-Provincial Relations, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade): It's called IMF.

The Chair: What does that mean?

Mr. Claude Boucher: These acronyms are often obscure, but it is called the Francophonie Affairs Division.

The Chair: Acronyms always represent words.

Mr. Claude Boucher: Usually, it's IMF, Francophonie Affairs Division. The F represents the word "Francophonie".

The Chair: Does it stand for International French...?

Mr. Claude Boucher: No, not at all.

The Chair: No?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: No. The acronyms have no relationship with...

Mr. Claude Boucher: These are not translations, for instance, I am the Senior Coordinator for Federal-Provincial Relations, or CFD. It's not a translation. It's only an acronym. The C stands for...

The Chair: When I look into it, I hope I don't discover that it stands for what I think it does.

How many person-years are there in this division or section?

Mr. Claude Boucher: There are about a dozen person-years overall.

The Chair: A dozen?

Mr. Claude Boucher: A dozen, yes.

The Chair: How many person-years does the department have?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: It has about 4,000 Canadian employees.

The Chair: Twelve, that's really not a lot. I think there is a lot of work to do.

Mr. Boucher, you have the floor for a brief presentation and then we will go back to questions. You have eight minutes.

Mr. Claude Boucher: All right.

To begin, Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank committee members for agreeing to let me appear a bit later. There was a good reason for that: today, for the first time, the minister invited the representatives of francophone and Acadian communities from throughout Canada to meet in order to develop a partnership to give them better access to the international arena.

The Foreign Affairs Minister played a key role in helping minority francophone communities gain access to the world out there. The first step in this process was Canada's participation in the international Francophonie. As you said, we have a branch which looks after the international Francophonie, whose mandate is to ensure that the Canadian government fulfils its responsibilities as a member country of the international Francophonie. In this area, there are many cooperation programs with southern hemisphere countries and other northern hemisphere Francophonie countries, such as France and Belgium. The minister has always tried very hard to make sure that minority francophone communities have access to these programs.

That is why, over the years, members of the Acadian community in New Brunswick, which, incidentally, was always at the forefront with regard to the Francophonie, were able to get involved. When the Internet took off, New Brunswick, because of its government initiatives, was one of the first provinces to receive a fibre optic network, which was a fairly new development within the Francophonie at the time. Many people who were involved in this experience, whether at the University of Moncton or throughout New Brunswick, more or less became role models for the rest of the Francophonie. For instance, the first director for new technologies within the national Francophonie was Acadian.

This goes to show that the minister, within the framework of his programs, made sure that francophone communities outside Quebec became known and more involved abroad, and this was possible because those francophone communities had something to contribute. New Brunswick is a good example. It was, after all, at the forefront. Therefore, people were very pleased with the contributions made by francophone communities outside Quebec.

Within the framework of its cultural affairs programs, the department has enough resources to promote Canadian artists throughout the world. Many Acadian artists have taken advantage of these programs to increase their profile abroad. For instance, Marie-Jo Thério is known throughout the world. There is also Ms. Léger, who is now a senator, as well as many other artists. People are now aware that there is an Acadian culture and this is in no small measure due to the efforts of the department. I do not want to blow my own horn, but when I was in Paris, we organized Acadian days. I remember that the first time Marie-Jo Thério went on tour, it was at the initiative of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

This all happened in the normal course of the department's business. Do not forget that New Brunswick received the status of participating government within the international Francophonie in no small measure because of the Canadian government's initiative. In the last 20 years, it played an important traditional role.

But what is new today, is that based on this experience, the department—and I would also like to highlight the contribution made by the Department of Canadian Heritage— through its IPOLC program, will be able to work much more closely with francophone communities outside Quebec. This is something new. Previously, the department tried to integrate francophone communities outside Quebec into its programs, but now, for the first time, it has decided to adopt a strategy and plan of action focused on francophone communities outside Quebec.

Why? Well, this is not only being done with francophone communities outside Quebec. We have come to realize that citizens are increasingly interested in international issues and that international realities have a growing impact on the daily lives of all Canadians. Just think of our relationship with the Americans after the events of September 11.

¿ (0955)

There is a demand. People want to know more. They want to know more about international affairs. After all, our department is the locus of international expertise within the Canadian government. Therefore, we feel that the department can play an important role with respect to meeting the expectations of Canadians. This is generally what the department does.

Within this framework, we have decided to take a more targeted approach with regard to francophone communities outside Quebec. Why did we specifically target these communities? Because we are already working with people from these communities, because we were given additional resources by Heritage Canada, and because we were previously involved in a more general way, whereas now, thanks to additional means such as the IPOLC program, we can be much more focused and adopt a real strategy.

We feel this is very important within the department, because if we open the doors of the world to francophones living outside Quebec, it will make them feel even prouder. The fact that you are a francophone is not perceived as being a handicap, but rather something very positive, because it gives you the opportunity to enter onto the world stage. They can become members of the international francophonie, take part in exchanges with African countries, Latin American countries and so on.

Therefore, this phenomenon exists and, in my view, it is very important to reinforce the feeling of belonging of francophone communities outside Quebec. This can also, to a degree, help strengthen francophone communities which, as we know, are pressured into assimilation. Therefore, if we open the doors of the world to them, it will make them feel good about themselves because it will give them access to the international francophonie, and, at the same time, promote... by creating international opportunities, these communities can emerge from the isolation they sometimes fall into. So, we have decided to take this approach with francophone communities. Within the framework of our strategy, we do not want to reinvent the wheel, but build on existing networks.

There are already very important networks in Quebec, where, for historical reasons, there is a greater presence on the international stage. But Quebeckers do not really know about francophones living outside Quebec and, for political reasons, the relationships which could have been created are not really there.

Let me give you an example of what we would like to achieve with our program. In Quebec, there is an NGO called Jeunesse du Monde . For more than 35 years, this NGO has created networks in every large, comprehensive high school (polyvalentes), and in every other high school. There are students who are interested in international cooperation and who want to become involved in southern hemisphere countries, be it Africa or Latin America. This network exists in every large comprehensive high school or secondary school in Quebec. We went to these schools and told the students that we would give them the tools and we asked them to expand their network to include all of Canada's francophone communities. It was fairly impressive. Jeunesse du monde accepted the challenge. We gave them some tools. They toured francophone Ontario. They went to the northern part of the province, towards Hearst, and in a single weekend created cooperation programs in 70 francophone schools in Ontario. This lady was there today. She was at our meeting, she told me that she had even received calls from Nova Scotia and that this type of partnership had also been established in Alberta and Manitoba francophone schools.

So, our strategy is to build on existing networks. I think that this reinforces Canadian identity, because all of a sudden, Quebec NGOs are interested in francophone communities outside Quebec, which are often not very well known. These networks enable Quebeckers, who are unfamiliar with those communities, to get to know their vitality and dynamism. We think this type of initiative reinforces Canada's social cohesion and it is part of our strategy. We want to create a new spirit of solidarity between francophone communities outside Quebec and existing networks in Quebec and elsewhere.

For instance, there is an association of francophone colleges and CEGEPs in Canada whose members include every CEGEP in Quebec, as well as every francophone college outside Quebec. We want to work on projects with them. For example, in two or three Montreal CEGEPs, we are subsidizing exchanges with the European community. CEGEP students participate in these exchanges and are involved in simulations of the European Parliament.

À (1000)

We tell them that their experience is very interesting and that they should do the same thing at the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface in Manitoba or at the University of Moncton.

We are in the process of implementing this new plan of action. Sometimes, the timing in life is good. Just when you seem to be interested in these issues, we are bringing together for the first time every community to develop this action plan.

À (1005)

The Chair: Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Hello again, Mr. Boucher. We saw each other recently.

At some other point, we can discuss how familiar Quebec is with the francophone community living outside Quebec, as well as your premise that Quebec does not know it well and the obstacles which the federal government allegedly created, which you claimed caused that reality, in part.

I would like to talk about the Public Diplomacy Program. At point 3.3 of your presentation, which I have received, you say the following, which may provide part of the answer to my question:

[...] institutional reinforcement of the Canadian francophonie, through international francophone cooperation.

I completely agree with that.

But at point 3.1, it says:

[...] stimulating the creation of regional, community and institutional partnerships, allowing affirmation, outreach and development of official language minority groups (francophones outside Quebec and anglophones inside Quebec) by establishing cooperative links and exchanges abroad.

Is the Public Diplomacy Program directed exclusively at francophones living outside Quebec and at anglophones living inside Quebec?

Mr. Claude Boucher: The Public Diplomacy Program is open to all Canadians. Within the framework of this program, we began targeting francophone communities outside Quebec, which helped us obtain additional funding from Heritage Canada, under the IPOLC program, which enabled us to have a greater impact.

So, the Public Diplomacy Program is open to all Canadians. If you are interested in this program, we can give you a lot of information on what is being done in Quebec and also in other regions of Canada. But we have now decided, within the framework of this program, to focus a bit more on francophone communities outside Quebec, because we have the means to do so.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Fine. If that's the way it is, I think it's a great idea. It's just that I was under the impression that the Canadian francophonie was being promoted abroad, but that Quebec was excluded. I think that Quebec is an important player within the Canadian francophonie. If Quebec had been excluded, I would not have liked the idea.

Mr. Claude Boucher: No, but since we know that the committee is particularly interested in the reality of francophones living outside Quebec in a minority situation, we drafted a document which addresses the committee's concerns. But the Public Diplomacy Program is open to all Canadians.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: That's great.

Now, I don't want to put you in the hot seat. We asked questions with regard to foreign missions located in Canada. We were told that measures were taken and that a letter had been sent out by the department. I want to say right away that I am not asking you this question to put you in an uncomfortable position, but can you tell us whether, except for the chief of protocol and the letters which were sent to the embassies and various missions located here in Canada, anything has been done, any action initiated, within these missions to highlight Canada's linguistic duality? We were told a little earlier of the chief of protocol's involvement and the letter which was sent. Also, is there a willingness to follow up?

Mr. Claude Boucher: Generally speaking, the diplomatic missions which are here are autonomous, but the department presses its case every time an opportunity presents itself. I have even had several meetings at the ministerial level. For instance, I remember having being present at the meeting between the Secretary of State, Mr. Paradis, and the Lebanese ambassador just before the Francophonie Summit. At the time, Mr. Paradis told the ambassador that he was somewhat astounded to see that his website was not bilingual. It was all the more shocking because Lebanon was the host of the Francophonie Summit. So, we told them that they were in an awkward position. We did not hesitate to tell them so.

The problem is that the missions often don't have enough money to have their sites translated at market rates, which are fairly high. But we encourage them to do so and I think that the official languages commissioner is also working hard on this issue, because these people read the papers. I think we are doing everything we can, that is, we are encouraging people to move in that direction. If you look at what has happened over the last few years, you will notice that the face of the diplomatic missions has become increasingly bilingual. I think that over time, this trend will continue.

But we cannot do more than encourage people at the highest level to take this approach. As I told you, our ministers are doing their share, as well as our ambassadors. We always include a small line to congratulate them for their bilingual site or to point out the fact that, unfortunately, it is not bilingual. We are not sitting on our hands.

À (1010)

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: We could target those countries among the 56 member countries of the francophonie, the APF, which do not have bilingual sites. That could be the first step, as our chairman said, and it might be interesting.

I don't think the argument about costs holds water. It's not that expensive. A few moments ago, I gave the example of the American embassy in France. The U.S. embassy has a site in French and translates Georges Bush's press releases into French. All they have to do is copy and paste the information and send it to the U.S. embassy in Canada. That is not expensive. They obviously have access to translation services. The Lebanese embassy in France must have a French website, right?

Mr. Claude Boucher: I agree with you, but things which on their surface appear simple may not turn out to be that way. Every ambassador feels that his embassy is his or her own small empire, and there are not necessarilly any discussions taking place.

The United States are a good example. They have a lot of money. They should do so and we encourage them to do so. I think efforts are being made because sometimes the texts are bilingual.

As I said, we are doing what we can at the highest levels, even at the political level. Should the Canadian government fund this type of initiative? That might set a dangerous precedent because we would be taking over other people's responsibilities. These countries have a relationship with Canada. Canada is a bilingual country. If they do not think it is their duty to work with the Canadian public as it exists, there is a problem. I hope that at some point the light will go on in their heads.

The other option is that Canada take over their responsibilities, but that is always a bad thing. If the same thing were done at the United Nations, the United Nations would never make any effort to work in French. Each country has to shoulder its own responsibility.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you. To conclude, can you send me information on the Public Diplomacy Program, so I can pass it along to my constituents?

Mr. Claude Boucher: Yes.

The Chair: The information will be sent to the clerk, who will distribute it to committee members. Thank you.

Mr. Simard.

Mr. Raymond Simard: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will not ask my questions a second time, but they were very relevant to the discussion we just had.

First, I would like to congratulate you for your initiative. It is a happy coincidence. I was afraid minority communities would have been forgotten in our talk about the world out there. So, I would like to congratulate you. You talked about opening the doors of the world to minority communities to help them feel less isolated, but I think this also gives us a certain degree of credibility in the eyes of our friends from the majority. They now know about us.

For instance, the hospital in St. Boniface is concluding a direct agreement with the Alsace region, without any involvement from a partner from Quebec. This gives us a certain degree of credibility in the eyes of our partners, be it at the municipal or provincial level. It is essential that we do business with other countries ourselves, without any partners from Quebec. I greatly appreciate your efforts in this respect.

I will repeat one of my questions. The best ambassadors for selling minority communities are the people who know them. Can you tell me, in absolute figures and in percentages, how many francophones from outside Quebec work for your department? You said you are trying to recruit people from British Columbia and elsewhere. I would like to know if these people know and live in those communities. I personally don't know many of them.

For instance, if you visit a Canadian embassy, be it in Belgium or in France, you are told by the staff that they are not very familiar with communities in Manitoba or Alberta, for instance.

So, how many employees are there, and should we not try to recruit people who know these communities?

Second, I really like the idea of training people who already work in our embassies, and future embassy personnel, to help them better understand all of Canada and not only part of it.

À (1015)

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I have to tell you that at least one of those people is myself. I come from Hearst. That is a good start, but I am sure that there are others. I would be pleased to provide you with those figures.

Mr. Claude Boucher: Congratulations, also, on what was done with Strasbourg. I must say that this was a departmental initiative. Two years ago, the minister supported Ms. Mullaire. Today, in our daily work, the partnership between Strasbourg and the hospital in Winnipeg is held up as an example of what can be achieved. It is a good example. Two years ago, there was nothing and we funded a small mission on behalf of bilingual communities. Two years later, it led to this partnership. A very important trip was organized last year and provincial authorities from Manitoba went along.

In our view, this is an exemplary winning situation. Communities develop their own relationships in an important sector such as health care. The relationship between the hospitals will enable the Winnipeg Hospital to become better equipped and more efficient, something which has been recognized by provincial governments, which have decided to come on board and make their own contribution. This is the kind of program we want to promote within the framework of this new, more systematic type of partnership. However, it was already happening, since the department funded this initiative two years ago.

Mr. Raymond Simard: Several years ago, people living in a minority situation outside Quebec were told that the gateway in Canada was Quebec, and that they had to find a partner from Quebec. But things have changed a lot, which I really appreciate. I want to congratulate you for this great initiative.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: Marielle tells me that it will be difficult for me to live up to my promise. She says that we know where people are recruited, but that we do not keep statistics broken down by province. Is that right, Marielle?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Yes. Our statistics are on the language of candidates. As it now stands, if someone is hired in Ottawa, they may hail from Quebec or Manitoba, but there is no way of finding out.

Mr. Raymond Simard: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. On the Department of Foreign Affairs website, it says:

The new Policy on Alternative Service Delivery came into effect on April 1, 2002. Indicate the extent to which your institution has familiarized itself with this policy since the February 20, 2002 announcement, and describe how it intends to implement the policy during the 2002-2003 fiscal year as regards the official languages provisions (Annex C on official languages).

It then says:

The ASD policy has been read and studied to determine its implications on DFAIT. As this policy applies to alternative service delivery, its applicability to DFAIT is essentially non-existent given that the department's role is to represent the country abroad.

I think that there are already 56 countries who have joined the international Francophonie. Tell me what you think about this.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: I am sorry, but I am not sure I understood what you read. I would have to read it in context.

I guess we wanted to indicate that we were less influenced by this new policy, which basically deals with service delivery in Canada, because, in any case, the services we provide abroad are always in both official languages.

I have not read the preceding pages, but you realize that this policy does not apply everywhere in Canada, because some regions are designated bilingual and others are not. When we provide a service abroad, it is always in both languages.

I only read the paragraph you quoted. I do not have the first part, but I am almost certain that this is the spirit in which the paragraph was written.

À (1020)

Mr. Yvon Godin: We will also to check to see whether it was written in that context.

You also mentioned groups who go abroad and you mentioned Marie-Jo Thério. I don't think that Marie-Jo Thério was part of a group.

You may not be in a position to answer my question, but I will ask you whether Heritage Canada is aware of the programs provided by DFAIT.

For example, I had asked Heritage Canada if they could provide $1,200 to assist Sandra LeCouter, from Miscou, to go to Vietnam. She had been invited by the Canadian Embassy in Vietnam. Sandra LeCouter performed in Paris and at the Place des Arts in Montreal. She's been everywhere. The minister had agreed to provide her with $1,200, but the department said that there was no program that could assist her. And that contradicts what you have said.

Mr. Claude Boucher: You should have sent your request to DFAIT. The mandate of Heritage Canada is to support culture within Canada. When it is a matter of promoting our culture abroad, it is within the purview of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, and it is something we work at very actively. For example, an Acadian group toured Latin America last week in celebration of the Journée de la Francophonie. And that was supported by the department. And that is the mandate of the Department of Foreign Affairs. It is why Heritage Canada helps us with the IPOLC program. We have the mandate to promote culture abroad. Heritage Canada has the dollars, but they do not administer the programs.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I will ask my question again. Is Heritage Canada aware of the programs managed by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade that are funded by them? I don't know how I can make my question any clearer. When I put the question to Heritage Canada, the answer could have been that there was a program at DFAIT and that I should address my request to that department.

My question is clear. Heritage Canada shares in the funding of this program. Therefore, the department is not aware of the programs that it funds.

Mr. Claude Boucher: At the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, we are familiar with the programs of Heritage Canada because we use them. I would hope that Heritage Canada is aware of our programs, since we are aware of theirs. That is a question that you should ask of Heritage Canada.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I understand what you're saying: there should be more communication between various departments. As someone who works at Foreign Affairs, I should be aware of the programs offered at Heritage Canada and vice versa.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Exactly, especially if there is a partnership between the two. In this case, there is a partnership between Heritage Canada and the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: You're raising a valid point, sir.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I put the question to Heritage Canada, because we are not aware of all their programs. I asked the question of Heritage Canada because I believed that where artists are concerned, it would go through Heritage Canada. Now we're talking about DFAIT. It would have been quite normal for Heritage Canada to tell me that they deal with artists only when they want to tour within Canada and that I should ask Foreign Affairs about the issue since we were looking at funding a program at Foreign Affairs.

The Chair: I want to bring you back to the reason why you're here today.

When the advisory committee, which had been created by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration with the community of francophones outside Quebec, appeared before this committee, we were told that there was not yet a great deal of cooperation from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Would you have anything to say about that?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We read the minutes of your meeting and we did look for information as to whether we had received an invitation, since no one could find one. It is true that the department had been invited at the outset, when the committee was created. At that point, as the co-chair stated in his notes, the mandate wasn't very clear. We did not know how it would be organized and the Department of Foreign Affairs is not involved in defining immigration criteria for Canada. So there was no clear picture of the context.

Today, when you look at all they have accomplished, we do agree. Yes, we could be there, and it is probably Mr. Boucher who would represent the department.

The Chair: Very well. Could we then remove “we should probably” and say that yes, the department will fully cooperate in this effort?

À (1025)

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Most certainly.

The Chair: We will let them know the good news. Thank you.

Along the same lines, can I ask you how things occur in embassies, whether in Switzerland, in France or in Belgium, when a French speaker arrives and states that he or she wants to immigrate to Canada?

We have an agreement regarding immigration with the Province of Quebec and there is an immigration officer from the government of Quebec who is attached to our embassy. I am told that when someone speaks French and wants to immigrate to Canada, the person is referred to this immigration officer from the government of Quebec. Is that true or false? Is that truly how things are done?

Mr. Claude Boucher: Let's look at a very concrete example in France. The embassy is located on rue Montaigne, the Délégation générale du Québec is located on rue Pergolèse, and the immigration services are located in the offices of the Délégation générale du Québec. Therefore, the immigration services for Quebec are within the Quebec delegation offices and not in the Canadian Embassy.

If a French person arrives at the embassy and states that they want to immigrate, people would try to identify where in Canada this person would like to settle. If this person expresses a desire to settle in Quebec, given the Cullen-Couture Agreement signed in 1978, whereby the government of Quebec has total control over the selection process, the federal government would become involved only on security issues and medical issues. The entire process is controlled by the government of Quebec, and it is the government of Quebec who would ultimately grant a certificate to the immigrant. If the person states that they want to settle in Quebec, the embassy will refer them to the immigration service of the government of Quebec. Usually, in areas where we recruit a large number of immigrants, such as France or Belgium, Quebec has its own services.

The Chair: And where Quebec does not have its own offices, how do things happen then?

Mr. Claude Boucher: Let's look at the example of Morocco or other countries. Quebec would have flying missions there, and then there would be collaboration with our embassies; we lend them offices and whatever else they need. There is a geographic attribution of responsibility, if you will, but let's say that the Maghreb falls under the jurisdiction of the Délégation générale du Québec in Paris. Our people would provide the requisite forms to the individuals and would tell them to send them to the Quebec immigration services in Paris. Then, every two or three months, based on demand, Quebec immigration officers would come into our embassies and apply the usual procedures for recruitment. That's how it happens.

But it does occur that people with a French background tell us that they want to settle in Vancouver or in Toronto.

The Chair: So your work depends on the circumstances. If I understand you correctly, Mr. Boucher, there is no promotion of French immigration to areas outside of Quebec elsewhere in Canada.

Mr. Claude Boucher: Well, there is an overall projection of the Canadian image.

The Chair: Yes, but there is no active promotion to encourage francophone immigrants to settle outside of Quebec, elsewhere in Canada.

Mr. Claude Boucher: You would have to ask your question of the Department of Immigration, because it is the Department of Immigration which is responsible for any promotional campaigns. That is what they do. Our department projects as faithful as possible an image of Canadian reality abroad.

The Chair: Very well.

In the work that our research assistant carried out we read:

Pursuant to the Regulations under official languages—Communicating with the public and offer of services, all Canadian missions abroad must offer bilingual services, no matter what the level of demand.

I would like you to confirm this. I imagine that the reason behind this is that we want to be able to serve all Canadians abroad, whether anglophone or francophone, and who may require the services of our embassies abroad. Am I correct?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: That is certainly the reason: but it is also because we offer consular services. Consular services are offered to all Canadians in the language of their choice. When someone is in a difficult situation, they want to be able to express themselves in the language in which they are most comfortable.

The Chair: Thank you. That's a very good reason.

Ms. Samson-Verreault, you talked about training during the course of your presentation and I quote,

The department has undertaken to make training plans. It has established and funds its own school of official languages...

Could you please provide us with the budget of this language school for the past five years, so that we can see whether it is growing or declining?

À (1030)

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I can provide you with that information. I don't have the figures with me, but I can send them to you. I must tell you that...

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We can assure you that the numbers are on the rise.

The Chair: Very well. Would you believe that the budget for the Department of Revenue (Customs and Excise) is decreasing and that their representatives complained when they appeared before us?

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: Ours is increasing, but I must specify that we're talking here about training in French, in English and in foreign languages, of cultural awareness and management.

The Chair: What I'm interested in is the share that goes to Canada's official languages.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: Understood.

The Chair: Mr. Boucher, you have just signed an agreement with Heritage Canada regarding the IPOLC program. When was that signed? In March?

Mr. Claude Boucher: It was signed last fall. I believe that it was in December.

The Chair: Is this a five-year agreement?

Mr. Claude Boucher: The agreement is to last at least two years.

The Chair: Therefore, $1.5 million over a two-year period?

Mr. Claude Boucher: That's correct.

The Chair: And what part of this amount comes from the department? The entire amount or half?

Mr. Claude Boucher: No. The IPOLC is part of a fund-matching program. Heritage Canada's contribution is $1.5 million and the department provides $1.5 million; the total envelope is thus around $3 million.

The Chair: Would it be possible to have a copy of this agreement?

Mr. Claude Boucher: I believe so. I don't see any difficulty. Yes.

The Chair: It is a public document.

Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I forgot something and my friend here reminded me of it.

I have had some conversations with journalists working in the United States, and I was told that the communications section at Canada's embassy in Washington was just about unilingually anglophone. Could you confirm that for me? Is that something you could look into? These are respected journalists who have worked elsewhere abroad, who have seen that communication services were offered in other countries, and who, after having compared them with Washington's, told us that services offered to francophones were of a very poor quality at the Canadian Embassy in Washington.

Could you comment on this or at the very least verify to make sure that this information is correct?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Are you speaking here about the quality of the French involved or the availability of services in French?

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: The availability.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: The services should be available. We can look into it, but I can assure you that in all of our embassies, services are available in both official languages.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: We are told that quite often during press conferences where journalists are invited to participate, anglophone journalists have just about all services available to them as well as the documentation, while equivalent documents are not available to francophone journalists representing Canada or New Brunswick.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We'll look into that.

The Chair: Are you going to follow that up in any way?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We will get the information to you, but I can assure you that based on policy, these documents should be available. Therefore, we will look into their availability.

The Chair: Excellent.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Boucher, you were saying earlier that embassies, such as the Embassy of Quebec...

À (1035)

Mr. Claude Boucher: There is not yet an embassy for Quebec.

Mr. Yvon Godin: No, that hasn't happened yet. You were saying that someone who went to a Canadian embassy and said that they wanted to immigrate to Quebec would be referred to Immigration Quebec. That's correct, is it not? And in those cases, do we ask these applicants whether they want to go to Quebec because they are French-speaking, or whether they would like to head to any other French-speaking region of Canada, for example Acadia?

La Société des Acadiens et Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick, for example, say that in terms of immigration, more efforts need to be made to send francophone immigrants into regions such as Acadia. As far as I'm concerned, I suspect that when a francophone arrives at the Canadian Embassy offices, he or she is told to go straight to Immigration Quebec where the application will be examined.

Currently, some are complaining of the decrease of francophone populations outside Quebec. Is there a program which would encourage people to settle elsewhere in Canada and would help them improve their knowledge about Canada? In my opinion, abroad, people think that in Canada only Quebec is French and the rest of the country is English. Quebec wants to separate and all the rest of it... We often hear of French Canada and English Canada. And by that definition, I live in English Canada; however, I am a francophone and I am very saddened every time I hear a term such as English Canada. I'm a francophone, but I am not a Quebecker.

Within our embassies, do people also feel that there is an English Canada and a French Canada, and that promoting our country to foreigners should be limited to French Canada? At that point we could state that there are two Canadas, even without the benefit of separation.

Mr. Claude Boucher: In my opinion, you should address your question to Minister Coderre, or to the Department of Immigration. We know that currently Mr. Coderre, therefore the Department of Immigration, signs agreements with francophone communities to determine how we can attract more immigrants into these regions.

At the department, we do it in a back-handed kind of way. Here is an example; I see Mr. Simard who is here today. We participated in the creation of the Ronald-Duhamel scholarship to the francophone college in Manitoba, specifically to attract foreign francophone students to Manitoba. We did the same thing for the University of Moncton. We felt that if foreign students studied in those areas, developed ties and so forth, the chances that they would settle in Canada might increase. That is a type of contribution that we make. However, as to the promotion of immigration or immigration proper, it is the responsibility of the Department of Immigration.

Mr. Yvon Godin: But what does the embassy do?

Mr. Claude Boucher: The Department of Immigration has its own services, but it is true that the embassy covers different types of services.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I come back to my question. When a person comes to the embassy, does he or she meet with people from the Department of Immigration?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Yes.

Mr. Claude Boucher: There is an immigration service where people go directly if they are interested in immigrating to Canada; they speak directly to immigration officers.

The Chair: Is there someone from this side who would like to speak? If so, please let me know.

What investigation method do you use to ensure that services in both languages are offered?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: This can be divided in two parts. On the one hand, we receive complaints from the Official Languages Commissioner; those are formal complaints. On the other hand, once a year, in the context of our annual report, we ensure, with all other divisions, that we have properly applied the policy on official languages.

And there are always informal complaints that come to us from people who have read a website, for example, and who have an issue with a particular paragraph. Generally we try—and I do believe that the Official Languages Commissioner mentioned this in her last annual report—to respond to our complaints systematically and quickly.

The Chair: So there is no active verification?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Active verification on site?

The Chair: As Mr. Sauvageau was saying, the fact that we hear that documentation is not automatically available in both languages from our embassy in Washington leads us to believe that there is no active oversight on location.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: In this particular case, we would call them to ensure that if a mistake was made, it will not be repeated. We ensure that the Official Languages Act is properly applied, and to do so, two or three times a year we remind them that they must offer official languages services to the public, especially in terms of communications, and of how they can live up to their obligations as to the language of work.

The Chair: Each year, you receive a dozen complaints, according to the Official Languages Commissioner's report, but those complaints do not represent everything. I will give an example.

Last year, I had the opportunity to travel with the Prime Minister's delegation to Africa. In South Africa, we were given documents, since we were participating in a series of meetings with parliamentarians, but everything was in English. When I asked whether these documents were available in French, someone was found who worked all night to translate them. Had I not asked for them, they would not have been available. I did not make a complaint, because I was given what I had requested the next morning, but had I not made that request, I would not have obtained the documents. So that is not the type of thing that you check for, is it?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: We do not investigate on a case-by-case basis.

The Chair: No, not on a case-by-case basis, but do you have any active form of verification?

Ms. Marielle Doyon: When something is brought to our attention, we ensure that the situation is corrected for the future.

The Chair: Therefore, if there was some active verification, it would be done by others, not by you. It would have to come from Treasury Board, for example.

Ms. Gisèle Samson-Verreault: I would like to add that we have asked each embassy, and each mission to appoint a champion. I am the departmental champion. The role of this individual is to ensure that legislation and regulations are adhered to at all times.

Is there a champion in each mission and do we look at the issue every day? No. We have not yet reached that stage. But our objective is to ensure that in each mission there is a champion whose role is to verify and ensure that corrective measures are taken when things such as what you described occur.

À (1040)

The Chair: Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: That's interesting. That means that since Mr. Bélanger did not make a formal complaint, the problem was settled just for him.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: No. I can tell you that a delegation subsequently went to Europe, that we remembered the experience and that we dealt with the issue right away. We don't have any translators on site in those countries. Therefore the delegation that organizes the meeting, which is often travelling with the Prime Minister, must ensure translation services, since several of those documents are revised during the course of the meeting. That is not something that we can prepare for in advance. It is difficult to have translation services on site, because the deliberations are held in French or in English. Of course, they most often occur in English— that's just reality.

The Chair: One last comment, Mr. Sauvageau.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Would you like the committee to study the issue? I realize that it's similar to the case of Air Canada, basically. Air Canada stated that they only received 119 or 82 complaints per year and that that wasn't too bad. But when we asked what the complaint process was at Air Canada, it turned out to be something just about impossible to accomplish. And in that case, 119 complaints was a very large number.

And I can share another experience with you. During a mission to Europe someone from the Canadian Embassy in Paris asked me if I wanted to have an interpreter with me on this mission. I told him that I was able to understand both official languages. Upon my arrival at the Canadian Embassy in Paris, where it would have been quite normal for everything to take place in French, everything took place in English because a member of the Alliance Party accompanied us. At that time, even if I understood, I asked for an interpreter just to ensure that my rights were respected. When we arrive at the Canadian Embassy in Paris and we can't get services in French, then we have a problem.

As to the follow-up, or how the situation should be dealt with, it is not by sending four e-mails a year to the receptionist at an embassy somewhere that we are going to raise awareness as to the importance of respecting the Official Languages Act. Would you like the official languages committee to examine how complaints could be prevented instead of having people simply respond to them? This is certainly not the first time that we've considered the issue. We've been discussing it for some time, but today, perhaps it deals more specifically with matters at DFAIT.

Ms. Marielle Doyon: Yes, that is something that could be looked at. I think that I'll leave you a little brochure that we prepared in order to explain to staff how to offer our services in both official languages. It's a brochure that was distributed to staff, which was prepared specifically for them. It provides tools for those who are not familiar with the other official language. They are told, for example, how to intervene within two minutes in order to explain...

Mr. Yvon Godin: When a member of the Official Languages Committee is part of the delegation.

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: You could perhaps put an asterisk beside the person's name.

The Chair: We still have a few remaining minutes.

There is an agreement with the francophone community outside Quebec, and I would imagine that also exists for the anglophone community in Quebec, but we'd have to look into that. There is an agreement in the cultural area which was signed by the Canada Council for the Arts, the CBC, the National Film Board, Heritage Canada, Telefilm Canada, and I believe the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française, and which was renewed not very long ago. Is that an agreement that the department is or could be associated with? Based on what you've described, Mr. Boucher, the department does a lot of work in this area. Has that been considered, and if not, would you be willing to consider it?

Mr. Claude Boucher: Mr. Chairman we would have to look into the mandate of the group. If the mandate does not contain an international aspect, then the department may not have anything to add. If there is an international aspect to it, it would be a good idea for the department to be involved. But where the Arts Council is involved, their mandate is a national one and not an international one, and in those cases DFAIT is rarely involved, because there is no international element. However, if there is one in this case, I'd entirely agree.

À (1045)

The Chair: Would you mind checking if all signatories would agree to adding that component if it's not already there?

Mr. Claude Boucher: I quite agree.

You mentioned the Quebec English-speaking communities. Actually, in our program, we're working with them, IPOLC, and we're also working hard with McGill University. For example, McGill University had a seminar on federalism. We're helping them a lot with organizing activities at that level.

The Chair: Thank you for being here today. Ladies and gentlemen, tomorrow we'll try working in camera on the report on immigration which will provide the conclusion for this work.

Don't leave right away. Colleagues, I'd also like to mention that last week, in the House, we got a referral on the matter of health and official languages and linguistic duality. You're aware of that. Perhaps we should also look at that matter tomorrow, in camera, if we have a few minutes to know how you'd like us to structure this work which will probably turn out to be demanding. Your thoughts on this matter are important.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: When are we going to hear the witnesses on riding boundaries?

The Chair: Witnesses will be coming from Alberta on Tuesday, April 1, to discuss the matter submitted by Mr. Williams. The following day, still next week, we will be hearing Canada Post which is the government organization that has the greatest number of outlets providing service to the public all across the country, for an overview of this matter. Does that answer your question, Mr. Godin?

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes.

The Chair: And then maybe we could look at a report on that matter also, is that okay?

Thank you once again for being here. Good afternoon to everyone and we'll be seeing you tomorrow.

The meeting stands adjourned.