FOPO Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, January 31, 2002

¿

0915

The Chair (Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque))

Mr. Georges Farrah (Bonaventure--Gaspé--Îles-de-la-Madeleine--Pabok, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr.Gary Lunn (Saanich--Gulf Islands, Canadian Alliance)

The Chair

Mr. Gary Lunn

The Chair

Mr. Gary Lunn

The Chair

Mr. Gary Lunn

The Chair

Mr. Gary Lunn

The Chair

¿

0920

Mr. Gary Lunn

Mr. James Lunney (Nanaimo--Alberni, Canadian Alliance)

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. Jean-Yves Roy (Matapédia--Matane, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

¿

0925

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Jean-Yves Roy

The Chair

Mr. Gary Lunn

The Chair

Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC/DR)

The Chair

Mr. Alan Nixon (Committee Researcher)

The Chair

Mr. Bill Matthews (Burin--St. George's, Lib.)

Mr. Loyola Hearn

The Chair

The Chair

Mr. Loyola Hearn

The Chair

Mr. Loyola Hearn

The Chair

¿

0930

Mr. Bill Matthews

The Chair

Mr. Bill Matthews

The Chair

The Clerk of the Committee

The Chair

Mr. Alan Nixon

The Chair

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

¿

0935

Mr. Loyola Hearn

The Chair

Mr. Georges Farrah

The Chair

Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Bras d'Or--Cape Breton, Lib.)

The Chair

¿

0940

Mr. Bill Matthews

Mr. Loyola Hearn

The Chair

Mr.Gary Lunney

Mr. Jean-Yves Roy

The Clerk

The Chair

Mr. Jean-Yves Roy

Mr. Bill Matthews

The Chair

The Clerk

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans

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NUMBER 036

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

Thursday, January 31, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿  (0915)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque)): We'll call the meeting to order.

    I think you have before you the report of the steering committee. I think Andrew handed them out. We met on Tuesday to try to plan the agenda. There are quite a number of issues members wanted to try to cover between now and June. We have, I think, fit most of them in. I'll go through a series of dates later, but first I'll read the report, the Third Report, and then we can deal with it.

    Your subcommittee recommends that the committee adopt the following program:

That the committee hear witnesses from DFO and other stakeholders on the management of Fraser River fisheries on February 5, 2002;

    --and Mr. Cummins has given us, in a letter, some witnesses we should hear from--

That the committee hear witnesses from DFO, Heritage Canada and other stakeholders on the Little Harbour causeway issue

    --that's in Prince Edward Island--

on February 7, 2002;

That the committee invite the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard to appear February 19, 2002;

    --and there were a number of concerns here.

    Gary, you had mentioned to me, on that, about the reprimand for Frank Dwyer. I expect we'll request the minister to bring John Adams so that he can answer any questions relative to that. We'll ask the minister, as well, to be prepared for questions on the MCTS hearings we held out west, and how much money really went to this, and whether it specifically dealt with the problems we raised.

    Mr. Georges Farrah (Bonaventure--Gaspé--Îles-de-la-Madeleine--Pabok, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, I have a question.

    The Chair: Yes, Mr. Farrah.

[Translation]

    Mr. Georges Farrah: Mr. Chairman, has the minister already agreed to February 19, or is he flexible as to the date?

[English]

    The Chair: It's still possible to change it. I talked to the minister's office. They felt it would be all right, but couldn't absolutely confirm it.

    Mr. Georges Farrah: Okay, thanks.

    The Chair: Okay. Let's come back to these points one by one. We'll get a mover and a seconder on the report and then amend it as we go.

    Gary.

    Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich--Gulf Islands, Canadian Alliance): I was just going to wait till you finished, but if you want I can....

    The Chair: Let's finish first.

    Mr. Gary Lunn: Finish the whole thing and then come back to me?

    The Chair: Yes.

    Mr. Gary Lunn: Okay, great.

    The Chair: Your subcommittee also recommends:

That the committee hear witnesses from DFO and the David Suzuki Foundation on sea lice and their implications for Pacific salmon on February 21, 2002;

That the committee invite the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to appear on the Main Estimates for DFO on February 28, 2002;

    --we weren't 100% sure whether the estimates would be out prior to that, so that's subject to change, but it's in there to indicate it'll have to be done--

That the committee travel to Boston, Massachusetts, Atlantic Canada and Québec from March 12 to 20, 2002, to continue the study of the Marine Communications and Traffic Services and to hear witnesses on aquaculture and local fisheries issues;

    --there were a number of things on that, and we have another paper we'll hand out to deal with that one--

That the Committee consider the draft of a report on the MCTS on April 9 and 11, 2002;

    --these are not locked in stone, but we wanted to try to schedule everything we have on our plates so we can complete it and get it off our deck--

That the Committee consider the draft of a report on aquaculture on April 23 and 25, and May 7 and 9, 2002;

That the committee travel to Ontario

    --Sarkis--

from April 29 to May 3, 2002, to complete its aquaculture study and to hear witnesses on Small Craft Harbours and local fisheries issues; and

    --and that's it, right?

    If somebody could move that, then we can get into amending it.

    Mr. Gary Lunn: I so move.

    The Chair: It's moved by Gary, seconded by Bill.

    Gary.

    Mr. Gary Lunn: First I want to commend the chair on this report. I think it's excellent. Scheduling, I think, is the right way to go so we have a clear vision of where we're going right up until the end of June.

    The only thing I would add--and I appreciate that the minister will likely bring the Canadian Coast Guard commissioner anyway--is that I think there needs to be an additional meeting, if it can be scheduled in sometime. I appreciate that this schedule is somewhat fluid, so I would like us to invite the Pacific regional director, Mike Henderson. I don't know if we want to...some people may have a lot of different issues and questions for the minister and I think we actually are going to need a meeting in itself to deal with some of these issues with the coast guard.

    Perhaps we could have one meeting and specifically invite Mike Henderson. He has discussed the funding with respect to the coast guard so I think it would be prudent for the committee to have him here to question that. As well, it would allow more time for all the other members of the committee if they have other issues, so they don't dominate when the minister comes. It's just a suggestion.

    The Chair: Gary, John Cummins wrote me a letter yesterday, I guess it is--January 29, the day before--and he's suggesting that the committee hear again from Mike Henderson, regional director of the Canadian Coast Guard's Pacific region, who advised the committee on the coast that the coast guard had adequate resources to undertake its responsibilities. The committee heard clear and convincing evidence to the contrary from the officers in charge in key coast guard facilities. That was on our trip out west. In fact, we did hear a story from the people on the ground that was very different from what we heard from Mr. Henderson.

    I would suggest, Gary, that on that one the minister is ultimately responsible. Let's first meet with the minister and we'll try to make sure the head of the coast guard is here as well. Then we'll make a decision. We have quite a number of days open.

¿  (0920)  

    Mr. Gary Lunn: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. That's the only point I wanted to make, and I'll leave it at that.

    Again, I think this schedule is excellent. We do have a new minister, so I do think there would be some legitimacy to actually bringing Mr. Henderson himself to substantiate those comments. I simply throw it in there on the record for future consideration.

    The Chair: Okay.

    James.

    Mr. James Lunney (Nanaimo--Alberni, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I would speak to two things. First of all, on the date for the minister coming, that issue is very important to me. I'm afraid I will not be in Ottawa that week. I wonder if it could be moved to the twenty-eighth, the date on which I see the minister was to be asked to appear on main estimates. If we could move it to the twenty-eighth, I can be sure to be back for that one.

    The Chair: Or the twenty-sixth. Are you here on the twenty-sixth?

    Mr. James Lunney: Yes, the twenty-sixth. Sure.

    The Chair: Does anybody have a problem with that? I don't know about the minister, so we'll--

    Mr. Georges Farrah: The problem could be the minister.

    The Chair: Yes, but we'll try.

    Mr. Georges Farrah: We're an accommodating bunch.

    The Chair: Yes.

    Mr. James Lunney: If we could do that, I'd certainly appreciate it.

    The other issue I wanted to raise was the issue of the hake and the joint venture fishery, which I don't see being addressed here.

    The Chair: Yes, I should mention we didn't know where to fit them in. I think there were two issues we didn't put in the agenda at this time. There is the hake fishery on the west coast and there's the gulf herring fishery. We didn't slate them in but there are some openings.

    Mr. James Lunney: The hake one, I think, is timely as well because it seems to me there's a review on the joint venture fishery that was supposed to be done, I believe, in January-February. It would be interesting to know who's involved in that review and where they're at.

    Our input that we heard on the committee's travel, I think, should bear some witness on any decisions that are being made regarding the joint venture fishery.

    The Chair: So how do you want to handle it?

    Mr. James Lunney: Could we bump that up earlier? We didn't report on that at all.

    The Chair: We didn't do a report yet on hake. We have a letter pending on the Tofino wharf, I think, that's just in draft. At the next committee meeting we'll run that letter by the committee.

    Mr. James Lunney: Excellent. I appreciate that.

    Could we in the meantime request information from the ministry on the status of discussions regarding the joint venture fishery?

    The Chair: All right, then. Let's do that.

    Mr. James Lunney: Do I need a motion to that effect?

    The Chair: Yes, but we have to finish this one first. So hold that motion in abeyance. Then we'll make that request and get it in writing.

    Mr. Jean-Yves Roy.

[Translation]

    Mr. Jean-Yves Roy (Matapédia--Matane, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    This report is indeed in keeping with our wishes. However, a question arose at Tuesday's meeting. Will the trip to Boston and the East Coast conflict with the Agriculture Committee's schedule? Some members of the Agriculture Committee would like to come along as well, including Ms. Tremblay of course, because we are scheduled to visit her riding. I'm not sure of the date. What's that?

[English]

    The Chair: Yes, I believe they do overlap. We would have to get this travel through the budget liaison committee. The difficulty for us in switching the date—we talked about this the other day—is the International Boston Seafood Show. It's an excellent show that has representatives from basically every fishery there, and I think it would be really useful. I've never been there myself, but Gary has been there and Peter Stoffer has been there; I don't know of anybody else.

    Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): So the date is fixed.

    The Chair: Yes, that date's fixed, so what we figured we would try to do is tie...it would be a lot cheaper for us to go to the International Boston Seafood Show and then do the rest of the Atlantic trip.

    Georges.

¿  (0925)  

[Translation]

    Mr. Georges Farrah: Ms. Tremblay isn't here either, but I could suggest that we hold off and postpone our visit to Quebec, perhaps until April or May, to ensure Ms. Tremblay's availability. Moreover, the committee already has a full schedule. It will be away for eight days, thus losing two full weeks from its regular work schedule.

    Having said this, the trip doesn't present a problem for me in my riding either. On the contrary, I'm looking forward to it. However, since the trip is relatively long, I have no objections to a postponement to accommodate Ms. Tremblay. I don't want to create any problems. It's merely a suggestion on my part.

[English]

    The Chair: Is the agriculture committee travelling the next week? We're not really in Quebec, but I imagine she would like to do the whole trip.

[Translation]

    Mr. Jean-Yves Roy: I wouldn't know.

[English]

    The Chair: We're in Cape Breton on the eighteenth, in Gaspé and Rimouski on the nineteenth, and back to Ottawa the night of the twentieth. We're in Quebec really on the nineteenth and twentieth.

    The problem is getting into another trip, Georges. I know how difficult it is to get this stuff through the budget liaison committee. If we break it up, I think we'll run into problems getting the finances.

    Mr. Gary Lunn: That's what I'm saying. We have two trips now.

    The Chair: I think it'll come down to her having to make a decision.

    Loyola.

    Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC/DR): Mr. Chairman, again, like many of the other gentlemen said, I think you did a great job trying to fit everything in.

    On February 21, the David Suzuki Foundation is doing something on sea lice and their implications for Pacific salmon. I wonder if we could contact them and ask them if they would also comment or be prepared to discuss at the same time the effects of seals on Atlantic salmon. That might be an interesting meeting, because I have to tell you, seals are having a very negative effect. In every salmon river in Atlantic Canada now, seals have taken up residence at the mouth of the river. It has become a major problem.

    The Chair: We did a seal report as a committee, was it three years ago?

    Mr. Alan Nixon (Committee Researcher): Yes, about three years ago.

    The Chair: I don't know about the seals. I think it's a question we could certainly raise with the David Suzuki Foundation, because their position is a little different from yours, Loyola. Maybe we need to...I think there's more meat than can be handled there in combining the two issues in one day. That's the problem.

    Mr. Bill Matthews (Burin--St. George's, Lib.): Why don't we bring John Efford up at the same time as the David Suzuki Foundation, on the effects of—

    Mr. Loyola Hearn: On the same day.

    The Chair: I understand, Bill, that John Efford's going to be busy campaigning for Tobin's old riding.

    Mr. Bill Matthews: That's why he might want to come up.

    The Chair: We're getting political here.

    I think, Loyola, the seals issue is something we should look at perhaps, at some point in time.

    Mr. Loyola Hearn: I wasn't really being serious when I said the same day, but if the effect of sea lice on the salmon population is important enough to bring people in to discuss, certainly the effect of seals on the fishery generally is important, because they do a lot more damage than sea lice.

    The Chair: I think we can certainly raise questions with them on it, Loyola, but Alan informs me that one of the things that came out of our report was that there was an eminent panel set up to look at the seal issues.

    Mr. Loyola Hearn: The report's just been released.

    The Chair: Yes, they've released a report. It might be useful to have them in to report to the committee and as a committee we could give committee members our previous seal study and go from there. So we'll not put it in this agenda at the moment but we'll make note of it to consider it when we have an opening.

    Is there any more discussion on this?

    Bill.

¿  (0930)  

    Mr. Bill Matthews: I have a point of clarification, Mr. Chairman. I don't know if it was the last meeting before we took our break or not, but I remember we had considerable discussion at a meeting on the continental shelf.

    The Chair: Yes, you weren't at steering committee, Bill, and you weren't supposed to be. When we're doing this committee travel in Newfoundland we figured we'd go to St. John's on the fifteenth. The night of the fourteenth we would deal with MCTS, and the morning and afternoon of the fifteenth we would have some witnesses on that question in St. John's.

    Mr. Bill Matthews: So are we going to determine the witnesses?

    The Chair : Yes.

    Mr. Bill Matthews : We will determine who they are?

    The Chair: Yes.

    I want to review this third report so we're clear before we move it. On the Minister of Fisheries coming in, we'll try for February 26 or 28, and I mentioned on February 28 we'll juggle the estimates. We don't know if they're going to be down in time anyway, and I'd like people to have a week at least to read them before. There's no sense them coming down one day and us meeting the next. So that February 28 in the minutes is subject to change.

    The Clerk of the Committee: Your deadline for tabling is March 1.

    The Chair: Yes, okay.

    The second-last paragraph recommends that the committee consider the draft of a report on aquaculture on “April 23 and April 25”, but that should say “May 21 and 23”, because if we do that travel to Ontario then we figured we'd give Alan a little time to draft the report.

    Mr. Alan Nixon: And any information that comes out of Ontario.

    The Chair: Yes.

    Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: What were the dates?

    The Chair: May 21 and 23.

    Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: So we take out those dates in April and May and just put in that one date?

    The Chair: Yes, that leaves us some days open. There will be some issues coming up, Sarkis. What we're just trying to do is schedule this in a way to complete what we have on deck. We've been dealing with aquaculture for so long. It's not off our plate and we have to get it done, and that's the whole purpose of this.

    It's been moved and seconded. I told you some of the dates are tentative. Is there any further discussion?

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: James, do you want to move a motion on hake?

    Mr. James Lunney: Yes, I would make a motion that the committee draft a letter to the minister requesting information on the status of the negotiations regarding the joint venture fishery, indicating that on our trip to the west we heard evidence on this matter that would be pertinent.

    The Chair: I don't think we need a motion. If we can just have agreement on that, then we'll move the letter when we get it. Is that agreed?

    Some hon. members: Agreed.

    The Chair: Is there anything else? The seals we'll keep in mind for the moment.

    We need a motion to deal with the travel. You have a paper before you that gives the travel costs estimate. Do you have the series of motions there, Andrew?

    Just on that I'll explain, because it was talked about at the steering committee. Basically, the thrust of this travel would be that we'd take 10 members of the committee and we would go to Boston on March 12; March 13 and the morning of the March 14 we would be at the Boston Seafood Show; in the afternoon we would fly to Halifax and St. John's.

    Now, that's tentative. If they have customs in St. John's, we might be able to go direct, so we were thinking Halifax and St. John's. We'd get to St. John's the night of the fourteenth, with charter. On Friday the fifteenth, in the morning, we would hold hearings on MCTS on the east coast, the way we did on the west coast.

    For the afternoon of the fifteenth, the members of the committee from Newfoundland have suggested that we should be extending our jurisdiction over the continental shelf totally, including the nose and tail, and we would hold a hearing on that. There's a lot of concern on that issue in Newfoundland, and we could possibly hear from some fisheries groups on the sixteenth in the morning. The sixteenth and seventeenth would be in St. John's, but basically people would be on their own.

¿  (0935)  

    Mr. Loyola Hearn: I probably could make a recommendation for people filling in their schedule. The seventeenth is a Sunday, I believe, and it's also St. Patrick's Day. I kid you not, if you want to get downtown early and hit George Street at noon, you will have the time of your life. If you want to experience culture....

    The Chair: So the seventeenth would be Newfoundland culture, or a Newfoundland and Labrador, I should say now, cultural experience.

    Monday, we would fly to Sydney and go to the Canadian Coast Guard College in Sydney. I don't know if there are any fisheries groups. We might have an hour or so to meet fisheries groups while we're there on aquaculture. There's some aquaculture in the area, right?

    Then we'd fly to Gaspé and have hearings on the MCTS there the next morning. From there we'd go to the Université du Québec in Rimouski. Madame Tremblay had suggested that we hear some people who have studied Norway's aquaculture. We would hear witnesses with them, and then we would go on the morning of the twentieth to....

    What's the name of that institution?

[Translation]

    Mr. Georges Farrah: It's called the Institut Maurice-Lamontagne.

[English]

    The Chair: Yes, the Institut Maurice-Lamontagne.

    And then in the late afternoon, we'd come back to Ottawa.

    So that's what it would consist of, and we would basically, with the exception of Ontario, complete our aquaculture study and complete the MCTS so Alan can get drafting it. There will be a few other issues, certainly, that will come up in our meetings with fishermen.

    So that's the story. Do you have the motions there?

    Are there any questions on that? Rodger?

    Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Bras d'Or--Cape Breton, Lib.): No, this is just with regard to the trip to Sydney. I had forwarded correspondence to you with regard to what came out of Teresa MacNeil's hearings, the offshore oil hearings, the ocean-dumping issue. If we could slot that in, I think it would be worthwhile for the committee to hear.

    The Chair: Okay, then as we go further on this, it will have go to the budget liaison committee. But part of the problem is that three chairs have yet to be filled. We're short a chair at industry, we're short a chair at finance, and we're short a chair at foreign affairs. Those three chairs have to be selected, and then all the chairs will have to get together and select a chair for the budget liaison committee. After that process is done, we can put this in the system. So unless this happens next week, we're likely to run into a time crunch. In any event, we'll proceed as if we can get it done. Once this is done and we get down to planning the agenda in each location, we'll be back to you, Rodger.

    Okay, can somebody move that the travel budget for the committee trip to Boston, Atlantic Canada, and Quebec to complete our study on MCTS, aquaculture, and other fisheries issues, be approved in the amount of $143,814.80?

    Man, are we ever fine-tuning.

¿  (0940)  

    Mr. Bill Matthews: I so move.

    Mr. Loyola Hearn: I'll second it, Mr. Chair.

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: The second motion is that the committee seek an Order of Reference from the House of Commons to travel to the above-mentioned locations—to Boston, Atlantic Canada, and Quebec—to continue its studies in aquaculture, MCTS, and local fisheries issues in March 2002, and that the necessary staff also accompany the committee.

    Mr. James Lunney: I so move.

[Translation]

    Mr. Jean-Yves Roy: I second the motion.

    (Motion agreed to)

[English]

    The Clerk: We should also get one that will allow you to finalize the travel itinerary.

    The Chair: Okay, will someone move that the chair be authorized to finalize the travel itinerary?

[Translation]

    Mr. Jean-Yves Roy: I so move.

[English]

    Mr. Bill Matthews: I'll second, Mr. Chair.

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: And that covers it, right?

    The Clerk: Yes, it does.

    The Chair: Is there anything else then?

    James.

    Mr. James Lunney: Mr. Chair, on our trip to the west, there was one other issue that we addressed in our hearings but haven't discussed here, and that's the Sumas River fishery, at Port Alberni, and the sport fishery there in terms of the sockeye fishery closure. We did hear some fairly convincing testimony that slamming the door on sport fishing at midnight on a Friday and sending the tourists packing had a devastating effect on the community.

    I was just wondering how we want to deal with that. Do we do it in the form of a letter to the minister, perhaps? What's the best forum in which to address that, to put something on the record regarding what we heard on the trip?

    The Chair: On that, James, I wonder if you could maybe put forward a proposal to the committee. The individual was at the meeting in Tofino, wasn't he?

    Mr. James Lunney: Ucluelet.

    The Chair: Ucluelet, yes.

    I think he alluded to the fact that maybe DFO was a little hasty in its decision, and maybe we need to be recommending to the minister that there be some flexibility. The department just seems to hit a numerical threshold, and then common sense is out the window and that's it.

    But maybe you could put forward a suggestion that the committee could consider, perhaps in the form of a letter saying to the minister what the procedure should be on the sport fishery when these limits are met, rather than closing down the industry just like that. There was a lot of hurt, there's no question about that.

    So if you could do that—

    Mr. James Lunney: Are you recommending that I draft a letter to submit to the committee?

    The Chair: Yes, or even an outline with a recommendation. We can then consider it as a committee, and then we can officially do it. That might be the best way.

    Mr. James Lunney: Okay.

    The Chair: We had committee minutes that day, didn't we?

    Mr. Alan Nixon: We did.

    The Chair: Then we can go back to the committee minutes for that day, and we have the transcripts. If you just give us a proposal based on that, Alan can take it from there and we can deal with it as a committee.

    Mr. James Lunney: We could perhaps deal with it at the next meeting, just briefly. It shouldn't take long.

    The Chair: Okay.

    Mr. James Lunney: Good. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: All right. Is that it?

    Meeting adjourned. Thank you, folks.