SVET Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Sub-Committee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, March 21, 2002

¿

0905

The Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West--Mississauga, Lib.))

Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu--Nicolet--Bécancour, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Louis Plamondon

Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris--Moose Mountain, CA)

Mr. Louis Plamondon

The Chair

Mr. André Smith (Director General, Canadian Battlefield Memorials Restoration Project, Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs)

¿

0910

¿

0915

¿

0920

¿

0925

¿

0930

¿

0935

¿

0940

¿

0945

¿

0950

¿

0955

À

1000

À

1005

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.))

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Wood

Mr. Roy Bailey

À

1010

Mr. André Smith

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood)

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC/DR)

Mr. André Smith

À

1015

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

Mr. André Smith

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood)

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Wood

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood)

Mrs. Wayne

Mr. Wood

Mrs. Wayne

Mr. Wood

Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.)

À

1020

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood)

Mr. André Smith

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood)

Mr. André Smith

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood)

Mr. André Smith

À

1025

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood)

Ms. Colleen Beaumier

Mr. André Smith

Ms. Colleen Beaumier

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Wood

Mr. André Smith

Ms. Colleen Beaumier

À

1030

Mr. André Smith

Ms. Colleen Beaumier

Mr. André Smith

Ms. Colleen Beaumier

Mr. André Smith

The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood )

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. André Smith

À

1035

Mr. Roy Bailey

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Bailey

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

À

1040

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Bob Wood

À

1045

Mr. André Smith

The Chair

Mr. Roy Bailey

À

1050

Mr. André Smith

À

1055

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Bob Wood

Mr. André Smith

Mr. Wood

Mr. André Smith

The Chair

Á

1100

Mr. André Smith

The Chair

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CANADA

Sub-Committee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

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NUMBER 006

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Thursday, March 21, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿  (0905)  

[English]

    The Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West--Mississauga, Lib.)): I call to order the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this is a briefing session on the Canadian Battlefield Memorials Restoration Project.

    Good morning, everyone. We're having a presentation first. As our witness today, we have with us André Smith, from the Department of Veterans Affairs.

    Welcome, Mr. Smith.

[Translation]

    Mr. Louis Plamondon (Bas-Richelieu--Nicolet--Bécancour, BQ): Madam Chair, I wish to raise a point of order before we start.

    It is about our meeting days. The first time we met was a Wednesday afternoon. I was under the impression that the Committee was going to meet on Wednesday afternoons and I scheduled Thursdays for my other meetings. Later today, for instance, I have a function at 7:30 p.m. I thought all our meetings would take place on Wednesdays.

    Are we always going to be meeting on Thursdays in the future? On what day will we meet?

[English]

    The Chair: You have a valid concern, but may we speak about it after the meeting?

    Mr. Louis Plamondon: I have to go at 9:30, because I didn't know which day we would have the meeting. It's better to decide now if we always prefer the same day.

[Translation]

Why is it not on Wednesdays? We could deal with this immediately.

[English]

    Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris--Moose Mountain, CA): Madam Chair, as long as our guest doesn't mind, I believe we could. We shouldn't take more than five or ten minutes. If we can get the consent from the members, let's do it now and get it over with.

    Mr. Louis Plamondon: We can speak about that after the holiday. I'll make a decision.

    The Chair: Okay, thank you.

    Mr. Smith

    Mr. André Smith (Director General, Canadian Battlefield Memorials Restoration Project, Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs): Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen. On behalf of Veterans Affairs, I'd like to express our appreciation for the opportunity to speak to you this morning about this most wonderful, interesting, and important project, the restoration of Canada's battlefield memorials.

    I'll spend a few minutes of my presentation giving you a bit of a lead-in into why the significance of Canada's contribution on the world scene going back to this period in time is so important. I think it really is essential to do that in order to set the stage for why we are here today and why we are doing what we will be doing over the next five years. I don't profess to be a history expert, but I've put together a bit of a summary of the relevant facts that will hopefully bring this to your attention.

    The other thing I'd like to do before I start is make it very clear that the funding being provided for this project is from an independent source. It comes directly from Treasury Board. The money being spent to restore these monuments and memorials does not come from the Department of Veterans Affairs. Even my team, my organization, and all of our administration are funded separately from the project money. In no way does this important work impact on veterans' programs or benefits.

    In 1914, Canada was a nation of 8 million people. We were comprised on nine provinces, and had an agriculturally based economy. As a dominion of Britain, we were not able to make our own declaration of war. This was done on our behalf. Our armed forces at the time were more of a home defence, remnants of the South African War campaign. But on August 18, 1914, training began in Canada. This was basically getting suited up for battle. Only three months later, a convoy of 31 vessels, including 31,000 troops, set sail from Quebec City for Great Britain. They were joined by a contingent of 500 Newfoundlanders who joined them off the coast, and the 32 vessels sailed in convoy to Europe.

    Despite its tremendous effort in such a short period of time, Canada at that point in time was certainly not a significant player on the world stage. However, by 1918 Canadians had earned a legend of invincibility. They were recognized as superb fighters and tactical thinkers in battlefield warfare, due to new innovative techniques and approaches. Canadians were identified as the shock troops. When Canadians arrived on a front, it was well known by the enemy that within a matter of hours, there would be an imminent attack.

    This war saw the dawn of mechanized warfare. Gone were the dramatic cavalry charges, gone were infantry and fixed bayonets, gone was marching shoulder to shoulder to face the enemy.

    Canada had its share of heroes. Frederick Thornton Peters, from Prince Edward Island, was the most dedicated and decorated naval officer of the Great War. Billy Bishop was the leading allied air force ace, credited with 72 on-target hits. Jean Brillant was an infantryman from the 22nd Battalion who was wounded three times in a single battle, yet he continued to lead his men until he expired from his wounds. In total, Canadians were awarded 70 Victoria Crosses in the First World War. Our air force folks served with the Royal Flying Corps, in which there were 27 aces in total. Of those aces, 10 were Canadians.

    The war ended for Canadians on the Western Front on November 11, 1918, in Mons, Belgium, on a spot not a stone's throw away from where the first shots were fired by the British Expeditionary Force on August 22, 1914. The efforts of Canadians and Newfoundlanders during the Great War had helped to define Canada as a nation. At the time of the Treaty of Versailles, Canada insisted on signing as a country in its own right, and this was indeed respected. Canada was recognized for its outstanding contributions and military performance during World War I. While Canadian military successes had become legendary, the cost in young Canadian lives—the maimed and the dead—was horrific.

¿  (0910)  

    The action that St. Julien commemorates saw the first heroic stand by the 1st Canadian Division over a three-day period. This was the first gas attack. We had 18,000 men in the trenches, and they suffered heavy casualties, including 2,000 dead. However, the Canadians held the line when others broke and ran.

    The men who were fighting in those trenches were some of the first troops in Belgium. In fact, some of the first troops from the 1st Division were the first group to actually be on the continent and engage in fighting. Their equipment was very rudimentary. They were still using cloth caps. There was no such thing as a gas mask. Chlorine gas was being used by the enemy, and there was only one way to defeat it. One of the troopers had a degree of knowledge of chemistry, and he encouraged the men to urinate on pieces of cloth and put them over their faces. That was the only way they held the line that day.

    The Canadian achievements at Vimy owe their success as much to the superior fighting skill of the officers and soldiers on the battlefield as they do to the sound planning, careful preparations, and training for that battle. Canadians were very innovative, inventing terms such as the “rolling barrage”, inventing trench raids and wire-cutting operations, and inventing the use of different roles and tactics. Troops were actually trained on mock battlefields that simulated the terrain they would be attempting to capture. One of the approaches developed by Canada was that every man in a unit understood and knew what his role was and knew what his officer's role was. If someone went down, there was a contingency plan to make sure the attack would go on and not falter.

    From August 8 to the armistice—the period known as the Last Hundred Days—Canadian forces spearheaded the push that led to the breaking of the Hindenburg Line. Canadian victories at Le Quesnel, Dury, and Bourlon Wood were key to the allies. These Canadian memorials are located on the sacred ground where these significant battles and victories took place.

    During this period, the Canadian Corps had captured 32,000 prisoners, 623 heavy guns, 28,000 machine guns, and 336 mortars. We had liberated 228 French and Belgian cities, towns, and villages. We had also liberated over 500 square miles of territory. The Canadians had engaged and defeated no less than 47 divisions, which represented over a quarter of the total enemy strength on the Western Front. But the cost of victory was very, very high. We suffered 67,000 dead Canadians, including 38 nursing sisters.

    It is important to note that the wounded-to-dead ratio in World War I was 3:1. For every dead soldier, three others were severely wounded. This was very important, since a wounded soldier almost represented a liability to his side because he required at least two others—stretcher bearers and medics—to care for him. Nevertheless, Canada was very innovative, possessing a very good medical corps. I have mentioned the nursing sisters, and many, many Canadians were saved because of the efforts of the front-line medical officers.

    Following the Great War, Canada established the Canadian Battlefields Memorial Commission, by Order in Council, on the September 2, 1920. This body was mandated to oversee the selection and building of suitable memorials. It is important to note that this body included a mix of recognized professionals, artists, architects, historians, and former military officers—basically a cross-section of Canadian society. These memorials were to serve as a tangible connection between those who died and suffered, and those who survived, as well as their families. They were to be forever a reminder that the rights and privileges that we enjoy today were achieved at a terrible cost.

    It is important to put this in the context of the post-World War I and Great Depression era. Cost overruns and scheduling delays were documented, yet the Government of Canada never wavered in its commitment to the World War I battlefield memorials. The desire to ensure that the particularly sacred areas where the country was forged into nationhood were preserved was overwhelming.

    During the construction of the Vimy Memorial, twelve other memorials were also being dedicated. It's important to note that these were very difficult economic times, the depths of the Great Depression. At one point in 1930, Newfoundland, which had suffered tremendously both in casualties and economically, was on the verge of giving up its most important memorial, Beaumont Hamel. Newfoundlanders were driven to that. It was only through an intervention of the Government of Canada and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission that the Beaumont-Hamel Newfoundland Memorial was saved and remains today one of our most significant and important sites.

¿  (0915)  

    To this day, the Beaumont-Hamel Newfoundland Memorial is so significant that the first part of the day on July 1 is still a day of memory and mourning in Newfoundland. It was on July 1, 1916, that the Battle of the Somme offensive began. On that day, 800 Newfoundlanders went over the wall at Beaumont Hamel. That next evening at muster, only 68 were able to answer the call. On that one day, July 1, at the Battle of the Somme, 24,000 allied troops died.

    The best known of our memorials is the Canadian National Vimy Memorial. It took eleven years to construct it, and 10,000 visitors per year were already making the pilgrimage to the site by that time. With the support of the Canadian government, veterans, and the Royal Canadian Legion, over 6,200 Canadian veterans, soldiers, families, and friends were transported to France by ship for the dedication ceremony in 1936.

    This was probably the first of our great and important pilgrimages. I keep teasing my deputy a little bit about this—very carefully, mind you—drawing to his attention that this pilgrimage, which involved two weeks in England and in France, cost each individual $160. In today's dollars, of course, that's a little bit more significant.

    Anyway, five vessels were chartered and sailed from Quebec City, and these 6,200 Canadians went overseas. The ceremony itself was presided over by King Edward VIII. He noted in his address that day that the memorial at Vimy was a memorial to no man, but a memorial for a nation.

    The event was so enormously popular that we actually had to turn away many folks who wanted to be present. The French, who had an eternal gratitude to Canadians for the work Canada had done in assisting in the liberation of their country, wanted to send 60,000 troops. That just wasn't possible because the site isn't that big—and if you've seen it, you know that. At the end of the day, however, over 60,000 folks were there for that dedication and ceremony. In total, counting the Canadians who went over and those who were already overseas, an estimated 10,000 Canadians were in that body. And it's important to note that while Vimy was only one in a of succession of impressive Canadian victories, it was the one chosen by our nation to symbolize our coming of age as a nation.

    In World War II, France was again invaded. Vimy was no exception. Even though the German troops overran France and actually occupied our Vimy site, little or no damage was incurred to the monument. We went to great pains to protect it as much as we could. You will see in the photographs that we have provided that we boxed in the principal statues to protect them, but the monument itself really suffered no great damage. The site, however, was very much neglected over that period of time because our caretaker was imprisoned in Paris by the Germans. His wife was kept on as a housekeeper for the Germans, who had occupied our caretaker's house on the site and had actually set up an operational headquarters at Vimy Ridge.

    While I say there was no damage to the site, the German occupation of it was a very great loss for us because all of the documents pertaining to the construction of Vimy—the planning, the original drawings, and the architect's plans—were destroyed. They were stored at the house and were unfortunately used as an aid to start fires in the fireplace on those cold mornings on the cold ridge of Vimy.

    The Vimy monument and other memorials survived the ravages of World War II, but they did not survive the ravages of Mother Nature, which is why we are here today. The project we have embarked upon is designed to restore Canada's battlefield memorials. After years of careful research, study, and preparation, Veterans Affairs Canada now has the funding to restore these sites.

    Planning began formally in the fall of 2001. We believe this is one of our department's biggest projects in the last decade, and we expect it will be one that will have a very highly visible public profile. It is a five-year initiative that will address health and safety issues at all of our World War I memorial sites, and it will also serve to protect our assets abroad. It will provide a long-term repair and restoration solution for the Vimy monument. It will also provide an opportunity to address the deterioration of the other memorials, address bricks-and-mortar issues, and address what are just general repairs. The project will also ensure that Veterans Affairs is better equipped to manage the sites after the project work is completed. We expect that the priority works of this project will be completed by July 2006.

¿  (0920)  

    We have divided the project into four separate subprojects. The first, most visible, and number one priority is the restoration of the Vimy Memorial monument. The second aspect of the project is the rehabilitation of the other twelve memorial sites. We also hope to address the issue of battlefield terrain conservation at both Vimy and Beaumont Hamel. However, that is prefaced on the caveat that it will be based on the available and remaining funds once we have finished the other two priorities. The final priority is a project that will map and risk-assess the subterranean features that exist at Vimy and Beaumont Hamel.

    There are a total of thirteen sites. Nine are located in France, and four in Belgium. The Newfoundland sites are identical in their presentation and are commemorated by a bronze caribou placed on a stone mound surrounded by native Newfoundland trees and shrubs. The caribou is the regimental emblem of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment. Apart from Vimy and St. Julien, all of the other Canadian sites are based on a similar commemorative design and pattern.

    Most of Canada's action took place in the north of France and Belgium during World War I. This map outlines where the Western Front extended from the English Channel down to the Swiss border, a distance of approximately a thousand kilometres. Trenches in which the allies and Germans were positioned, dug in on either side of the front, often were at a distance of no more than 35 metres from each other. It's important to note that the trenches moved back and forth no more than 10 to 30 kilometres throughout most of the war.

    Another interesting fact is that although the missing in France are commemorated on our Vimy monument, other Canadian missing are commemorated primarily on the Menin Gate in Ypres, and our air force and naval missing are commemorated on other appropriate memorials in the United Kingdom. On the Menin Gate are the names of 7,024 missing Canadians who gave their lives in the battles of Belgium.

    Turning back to Vimy Ridge, the significance of Vimy Ridge was that it was a very strategic position for the Germans. It became Fortress Vimy because it became a fallback line for the Germans when they were pushed back from Paris. They felt it was a site they could secure and easily defend for the duration of the war, and quite rightly so. Over the three years leading up to Canada's assault on Vimy, the British and the French had fought for and tried to capture it, losing over 200,000 soldiers. The French alone had lost 130,000 killed or wounded in trying to capture the ridge.

    Vimy was one of the strongest defensive positions in the north of France. The reason for this was that Vimy Ridge—and I have a short video clip that will give you a perspective of the ridge in terms of how you approach it and in terms of the height of it—protected an area known as the Douai Plain, and the big industrial city of Lens and other locations in that area were a coal-mining centre. This was the largest coal reserve in that part of France—and in northern Europe, in fact—and that coal was quite necessary to the Germans to fuel their war machine.

    We'll take a look at this quick video clip, and you'll get an appreciation of the height of the ridge and the strategic position that the ridge was protecting.

    [Editor's Note: Video presentation]

¿  (0925)  

    What appears to be mountains in the background are actually heaps of mine tailings. These things are just huge, and they basically adopt that entire area.

    The Canadian National Vimy Memorial is Canada's national First World War memorial in Europe. The footprint of the Vimy Memorial site covers 290 acres of land. If you were to overlay the Vimy Memorial site over downtown Ottawa, it would literally stretch from the Byward Market area to across the canal, taking in most of Wellington Street, the Parliament Buildings, the Supreme Court, the area that is known as Lebreton Flats, and out into the Ottawa River. No other country has this much or this type of terrain.

    The land was granted to Canada by France in perpetuity in 1922. The original grant was an area of 10 acres, where the memorial sits today. But the Canadian government of the day felt strongly, as did the citizens...there was a tremendous feeling in this country that this land was sacred, that it needed to be protected. Acting on behalf of the Canadian citizens, the government therefore approached the Government of France to acquire additional land. What they wanted to acquire was some of the battlefield terrain, the front-line trenches from which the Canadians had mounted their assault. The French Parliament, without hesitation and by an Act of Parliament, agreed to deed this land to Canada for our use as a war memorial in perpetuity.

    It's interesting to note that the 10 acres are granted forever. Were we to abandon Vimy for whatever reason, they would remain as a Canadian memorial, irrespective. The other acreage is provided to us as long as we maintain it for a memorial and interpretive site.

    It's also important to note that agricultural land is at a premium in that part of France. This gift from France was very significant, because it basically involved eliminating a lot of the farming communities that existed there. However, I know the French have never regretted that decision to this day, and Vimy is just one of the must-see war memorials in that part of the country.

    Just to give you a very quick description of the site, the area in the upper, northern part is the memorial area where we have the monument, and there's a parade ground in front of that. That is the area that we use for our ceremonies to this day. The other areas in and around the monument site are battlefield terrain.

    We have a small site there that serves as a visitors' centre and interpretive centre. This has become very important for the many visitors who go to Vimy. We also have a guide hut there, because we do have a guide and interpretive program at Vimy. And there's also a parking area.

    As you move down the road toward the south, you're going down what is known as the Allée des Érables, or the Maple Avenue. In the west corner are two cemeteries, Canadian Cemetery No. 2 and Givenchy Road Canadian Cemetery. A number of you in this room were there for the repatriation of the Unknown Soldier. This is where the ceremony originated from. This is where the Commonwealth War Graves Commission handed our Unknown Soldier to the French troops, and the march was up the Allée to the monument.

    Heading to the southeast, you get into the long “boot” part of the site. This is where the fighting trenches were located. This was the front line. We have about four kilometres of Canadian and German trenches, both forward trenches and reserve trenches. It's a complete network, and one of the only sites in the world where you can see undisturbed World War I battlefield terrain. This area remains very heavily cratered because of both overhead shells and subterranean mines. There is a honeycomb, a catacomb of tunnels through there. We have one tunnel open to the public, the Grange Subway. That area is about 100-plus acres, but a good portion of it is not open and accessible to the public because we have yet to make it secure and safe.

¿  (0930)  

    Preserving this unique World War I battlefield terrain, complete with shell holes, mines, and unexploded ordnance, presents a challenge when you're operating a memorial site that receives close to a million visitors per year, with 750,000 at Vimy and another 250,000 at Beaumont Hamel. That's more than many of our national parks receive here in Canada. Regrettably, perhaps not as many Canadians as we would like to see are visiting, but we do notice that the number is increasing all the time. Out of that million visitors, close to 400,000 are school children from France, England, and the Netherlands, and many Germans also come to visit.

    There are many danger zones, and these are off-limits to the public. Red signs basically identify areas that are out of bounds because of undetonated ordnance, as well as some areas that we're just not able to classify as safe or open to the public. There's always the potential of sudden collapses and subsidence of the terrain, and the areas is still very heavily cratered.

    These potential dangers must be balanced with the visitor's desire to explore and fully experience the site. It should be noted that some battlefield terrain is open to the public. They can wander through among the sheep. To this day, we employ 600 sheep to keep Vimy and Beaumont Hamel looking crisp and tidy. The terrain is very rugged, with very deep craters, and sheep are actually the only medium we can employ to keep the grass trimmed, because we haven't yet discovered a piece of equipment that can duplicate their efforts.

    The restoration of the Vimy Memorial monument will be the largest and most intensive of the works. We estimate it to be in the neighbourhood of $20 million. Current practices employed for reparations at Vimy will be adjusted to ensure the long-term conservation of this national historic site. In 1997, Vimy and Beaumont Hamel were identified as Canada's first two national historic sites outside of Canada's borders. The work at Vimy will include repairs to the stone, masonry, and overall structure, as well as upgrades to certain poorly designed and poorly performing features. We will strive to restore the original intent of commemoration.

    The sheer size of Vimy makes the task of repair an enormous one. It is equivalent to a ten-storey building, double the height of the Cenotaph in Ottawa, and just under half the height of the Peace Tower. It covers 2,000 square metres of land, and contains 15,000 tonnes of concrete and reinforcing steel and over 6,000 tonnes of seget limestone, all of which is set on a foundation excavated to bedrock 13 metres below grade. It took eleven years to construct, at a price tag of $1.5 million in 1930s currency. It will be impossible to place a figure on it today, but we will probably require more than that just to acquire the stone for the repairs.

    One of the most interesting things about the Vimy monument site is that it is unlike any other memorial that I have seen or that, I think, exists in Europe. Nothing about the Vimy monument really glorifies war. It is a memorial to peace and sacrifice, and everything about it suggests the higher values that we all try to achieve. It is undoubtedly one of the most beautiful monuments in Europe. As a Canadian, I guess I'm a little bit partial, but I've seen most of those monuments. Nothing equals or parallels Vimy.

    There are no armed soldiers on the monument. The only two vestiges of war are two mortars, with the mortars' mouths silence by a laurel.

    The dedication statement on the monument from the people of Canada reads:

TO THE VALOUR OF THEIR COUNTRYMEN IN THE GREAT WAR AND IN MEMORY OF THEIR SIXTY THOUSAND DEAD THIS MONUMENT IS RAISED BY THE PEOPLE OF CANADA

We had a slide that would give you a visual tour of the monument, but we had a few problems with it this morning. I'm therefore going to spend just a few minutes giving you a quick overview of what comprises the monument, and what the major repairs to the monument will be.

¿  (0935)  

    The monument itself was designed by a Canadian architect and sculptor by the name of Walter Allward, from Toronto. It was the culmination of a national competition that saw 160 submissions. Seventeen finalists were invited to design and present maquettes. Despite breaking many of the competition's rules, the Allward nomination was just judged to be the perfect memorial for Canada, and hence was awarded first place. The second place finisher was equally moving. It was felt very strongly by the selection committee that it should be constructed also, and it is the one that resides at St. Julien.

    The memorial sits on Vimy Ridge itself, on a hill known as Hill 145, 145 feet basically being the elevation of the plain below. At the outset, there was some debate as to where this monument should be located. Many felt the monument should go in Belgium because of the tremendous effort of the Canadian divisions in Belgium earlier in the war and because of their tremendous sacrifice. At the end of the day, however, it was felt it had to be Vimy because Vimy had come to symbolize our birth as a nation even then. It was the first time the four Canadian divisions were assembled together to fight. They fought under the leadership of General Sir Julian Byng, who later became our Governor General as Viscount Byng of Vimy. There were many Canadian heroes, like Arthur Currie, who became a general later on and who led the four Canadian divisions and was in charge of one of the divisions at Passchendaele.

    The monument itself has twenty statues on it. On the immediate left of the front wall is a grouping of statues that shows a young man breaking a sword—in other words, symbolizing the end of hostilities, the end of conflict. He is surrounded by representatives of the people we liberated. The grouping of statues on the right of the base of the monument is basically designed to identify the helpless and those who Canada, as a peaceful nation yet a nation willing to fight for peace, has defended from the First World War on.

    As you go up the steps—and the steps are an area that will require considerable effort to repair, but I'll speak about some of those problems later; just remember that the stairs are a problem—the inner wall is known as the Terrace Wall. As you go around the corner, if you were to see the monument in real life, you would note that, from the far corner of the Terrace Wall and going across the steps and around the three other walls, are the names of 11,285 Canadian who have no known graves in France. They are identified on this monument.

    Proceeding up the stairs, on the left is perhaps the most famous statue. It's the one known as Canada, and that statue overlooks a tomb, a sarcophagus, just below it that represents a resting place for the soldiers who didn't come home. The fretwork on top of the sarcophagus is a carving of stone: a soldiers's helmet, a crusader's cross, a rose, and a laurel. When we designed the cover for the sarcophagus for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier here in Ottawa, this was the model. We used the exact pattern of the design that covers the altar at Vimy.

    As you move up the centre stairs to the platform, you come to another grouping of statues. These statues represent the Spirit of Sacrifice who is passing the torch, as identified in the John McCrae poem. As you go up to the two pylons, the two pylons represent our two founding nations, France and England, French and English. These two pylons symbolically rise to the heavens and to the higher values that man is attempting to achieve. The statue groupings on the top symbolize Peace, Justice, Truth, and Knowledge, and there is a cross on either side of the monument or the pylons.

¿  (0940)  

    The pylons themselves are in very good shape, although some repointing work will be required. Where our problems start is on the platform level. The platform basically surrounds the pylons. There are stairs on all sides, but what is happening is that the platform is acting almost like a small lake during the heavy rainstorms in France. It holds the water. The main problem with the monument is its inability to shed and manage water adequately, so there is a lot of damage on this surface, and that will be repaired. There is some damage on the front wall or main buttress wall, and that is an area in need of repair. Many parts of the front and two terrace walls, and the buttress walls on the east side, south side, and west side, will require complete dismantling and rebuilding.

    Our regular upkeep, coupled with major repair works on a ten-year cycle, have only served to maintain the structure. The current works are outside the scope of routine repair, and since this is now designated a national historical site, works must respect the principles of heritage conservation, as well as commemorative intent.

    Veterans Affairs has been the keeper responsible for Vimy and our other memorials since 1951. Prior to that, they were the responsibility of the Department of National Defence.

    As I said earlier, the most pervasive concern at Vimy is water damage. It is the most pervasive problem, and it's the one that is causing most of the grief with this particular structure. Problems were identified very early on. Some design flaws were noticed during construction. Attempts were made to address them using the technology and know-how of the day, but those met with limited success. The water causes damage to the inside as well as to the outside of the structure, and this has led to the current state of disrepair. To the best of our abilities and through our funding over the past number of years, we have attempted patchwork repairs or cosmetic repairs, but we haven't been able to address the root causes.

    Basically, water enters the structure through the walls and through the platform. It courses through the structure and dissolves the lime from the concrete. This in turn reacts with the limestone that clads the monument. When you combine saturated stone with the high number of freeze-thaw cycles experienced in Europe, what you have is the stone denigration that we're noticing today: damage to the stone, obscuring of the names, corroding of the reinforcing rebar, and loss of clarity and integrity of the monument.

    Our biggest concern, of course, is the loss of the names. These slides illustrate that some repairs, while well intended, have led to other problems. What you're seeing here is the calcite coming out from between the mortar joints and obscuring the names. We have all of these names recorded. When we rebuild the monument, they will all be reinscribed and nothing will be lost. The project will address the root causes of the deterioration that has accumulated over the years, and will rectify the short-term repairs that were undertaken. And again, we have two slides here that show you some of the patchwork that we have done on the names.

    What we're basically losing is the artist's intent for this monument. The monument was intended to be seen as a peace structure rising from the battlefield terrain. It was designed to be viewed as being homogeneous—in other words, one massive piece of stone. You weren't really supposed to distinguish the various stones that made up the monument. In fact, when the monument was first constructed, I'm told that you could not discern individual stones from a distance of 50 paces. The mortar tolerances are 3/32s of an inch, and getting those types of tolerances when moving blocks of that size was quite an engineering feat. The intent was to have all of the names on that monument listed in alphabetical order, not by rank. Unlike most memorials on which the names are on individual blocks, the names on this monument run right across the courses of stone, across the mortar joints. So it really makes for a very challenging repair.

    Damage and mismatched stones will be replaced. So far, we have estimated that about 30% of the stones require replacement, but we'll have a better understanding of this as work progresses. We've heard much about the stone. The stone is quite unique. The stone is a limestone. It comes from a small quarry in Croatia, on the Adriatic coast. We couldn't imagine why they went there to find this stone, but when you see the quarry and when you see the original stone, you're immediately impressed by its absolute beauty.

¿  (0945)  

    I brought two samples of stone with me this morning. The first is a piece of damaged stone. To the best of our knowledge, it is not original. During the 1950s and 1960s, when we were doing some repairs, we basically had lost touch with the original quarry, so we had to try to find the best and most suitable replacement stone. I believe this stone is called Veselje Unito. I will not call it an inferior stone, but I will say it is not as suitable to our requirements at Vimy as the original Vimy stone.

    I also have a piece of original seget that I picked up at the original quarry some two weeks ago and brought back in my suitcase. So we have located the original quarry, which we had lost touch with for some time. To the best of our knowledge, the quarry dates back to about 300 or 400 A.D. It was a Roman quarry exploited by the Romans. When we were on site, we were actually able to witness the spot from which the original contractors who built the monument had extracted the stone for Vimy. You can still see some of the steam winches and pulleys that were used, and some of the diamond cutting saws.

    The quarry is coming to its life's end. There is no number-one-quality stone left in it. We're now down to number-two- and number-three-quality stone. We're down in the lower galleries of the quarry, and while we're confident that there will be enough stone to address our needs, the quarry is probably quite soon coming to the end of its life expectancy. It's the only one of its kind.

    I think what moved me the most...I was probably one of the first Canadians to go back to this particular site in the last 75 years, and certainly one of the first to go for this purpose. While I have wondered many times why Canada went so far abroad to locate the stone, when you're there you just can't help but feel what must have been the tremendous commitment of the Canadians of the day to go to such extents to acquire such a high-quality stone for the Vimy monument.

    The preservation of our international memorials was identified as a key priority by Veterans Affairs stakeholder groups when they were last consulted as part of our commemoration review, and 87% of Canadians believe we should be doing more to remember our wartime effort. It's interesting to note that our European partners and other allies are facing the same issues that we are with their monuments, and they're very keen to partner with us and to share information that is based on our best practices and expertise.

    Project 2 will rehabilitate the other eleven memorials and surrounding terrain. It will focus on repairs to walkways and platforms, repointing of retaining walls, and basic horticultural work. In the slide I'm showing you now, you can see the monument at St. Julien on the left, while the one on the bottom right is the monument and memorial at Passchendaele.

    The required repairs have been accurately documented, and preliminary costings have been prepared for each site. We hope to undertake repairs on four of these smaller memorials this summer. We feel quite confident that when these have been completed, we'll have a very good appreciation of the effort and cost required for the rehabilitation of the balance of these sites.

    In the upper right-hand corner of the next slide are the steps leading up to the memorial at Bourlon Wood. The trees that can be seen in this particular slide date back to Napoleonic times. They are known as lime trees. During the Second World War, these trees were pretty well wiped out, but we've been able to restore them back to health.

    The next group of slides shows some of the basic failings at our sites. We have mismatched stones, we have spreading pavers, and features are basically becoming unstable and dangerous to our visiting public. In the next slides, you will notice two memorials located very much in public areas. The one on the right is Moncy-le-Preux. It's a Newfoundland memorial and it's right in the centre of town. The photo was taken quite early in the morning so that the traffic could be avoided. In the slide, you can see the municipal building just behind it, and there's a huge church to the left of the photo.

    This Newfoundland memorial was built on the top of a German pillbox. It's very symbolic because it identifies a corner that the Newfoundlanders held for three days under tremendous odds. But what we're discovering is that a lot of these monuments were built not only on war ruins, but the war ruins in turn had been built on prior ruins. Below this pillbox is an ancient French farm, complete with cellars and open areas, so this whole monument is in danger of some degree of collapse and will require some stabilization.

¿  (0950)  

    On this next one, we also have an overgrowth of vegetation. A tree in the back here is about 45 feet high and is growing in about 20 inches of soil, and below this memorial there are again empty and open cellars.

    The treed areas or sites are causing concerns for public safety for a number of reasons. Most of the trees were part of a planted forest, as opposed to a natural forest. The trees selected were not native to these regions, and they are not performing well today. In fact, they're all maturing and showing symptoms of disease, and they have the potential to all fail at the same time. We will need to bring these down in an organized fashion to minimize the potential damage to battlefield terrain.

    Project 3 looks at the battlefield terrain at Vimy and Beaumont Hamel. The terrain was protected as part of the original commemoration, and today Vimy and Beaumont Hamel comprise over 80% of the surviving unspoiled World War I battlefield terrain in the world. Veterans Affairs is the custodian not only of this terrain, but of about four kilometres of original World War I front-line trenches at Vimy and another kilometre of World War I front-line trenches at Beaumont Hamel. In total, the acreage at Vimy is 290 acres, and the acreage at Beaumont Hamel totals 75.

    Battlefield terrain is an important part of the educational and commemorative experience for visitors to these memorials. However, the overwhelming popularity and success of our visitor and commemoration programs is itself jeopardizing the viability of the terrain and its very survival. It presents a significant health and safety issue as we try to find a balance between granting safe access to these elements and limiting accidents and injuries to visitors and employees.

    At the top of our next photo, you see a young child running through a battlefield area. That happens to be a very safe day, but these trenches and craters can have as much as six feet of water in them during the springtime period.

    In the bottom left photo, you can see a tree that is just basically a windfall. Mind you, this one was in a non-public area, as can be seen from the red signpost. It didn't present an immediate danger to the public, but it could nevertheless represent a danger to staff on site.

    The bottom right photo shows a trench at Beaumont Hamel. There are some steel pickets in the foreground. We thought these were part of a restoration attempted back in the 1960s, but we have since located photos that show these as having been original pickets put in place to stabilize the land during the wartime period. The soil in that part of France is such that the minute it absorbs water, it instantly turns to mud. It was one thing to dig a trench and to throw the mud up on the side, but it was another thing to have it just slide back down on you. We therefore suspect that these steel pickets were put in place to shore up the trench walls. Today, they are a very significant hazard for anyone who might fall and happen to strike them.

    Despite our best efforts for directing the flow of visitor traffic, visitors have a tendency to stray from the established pathways and walkways. Intemperate weather also causes problems with the terrain that are further exacerbated by our high volumes of visitor traffic. People like to strike off. It's amazing. When folks go Vimy or Beaumont Hamel, they are immediately transported back to a different time, and they like to strike off on their own. Despite our guide programs, they will often create their own pathways, and this has a potential to severely damage the terrain.

    The final part of the project is referred to as a problem by definition only. It will examine the subterranean features at Vimy and Beaumont Hamel for potential collapse. We're primarily concerned about the public areas. This will be our first line of attack, but we will try to gather as much information as we can for the rest of the site that is not open to the public at this point in time.

    The concern is that we have many tunnels. We have subways, dugouts, and some potential for ordnance on the site. There are over 14 kilometres of known tunnels under the Vimy Memorial. There are at least two large laagers that are able to hold battalions, and an unknown number of dugouts. We know dugouts were constructed every 150 feet along the front line, and we have 4 kilometres of that line. To this point, we have counted 117 German dugouts on the site, and we know there are an equal number of French, British, and Canadian ones as well.

    At Beaumont Hamel, the issue of unmapped underground features is also a concern, and we are working to further identify those. The outcome of this investigation will be the potential subject of a further submission to Treasury Board once a decision has been made about the risk factor.

¿  (0955)  

    The images in the next slide show what is an actual tunnel collapse at Vimy that happened in 1999. When you have tunnels or subterranean features that are fairly close to the topsoil surface, the chalk will slab inwards through erosion and over time. Once this reaches the subsoil, then with moisture and with rain, you will get a collapse or a subsidence on the ground.

    As I said, we also have 14 known kilometres of tunnels, and the danger is that we can have unauthorized access to these tunnels by civilians or persons who really have no business being down there. These are very dangerous features, and it's our goal to make sure no one goes down there unless they are on official business.

    It's interesting and, I think, important to note that during the three-year stalemate at Vimy, when no headway was being made and the Germans were entrenched in Fortress Vimy, the war went from being a surface war to being a subterranean war. Men lived, fought, breathed, and died below the surface. We have a video clip that gives you perhaps a bit of a better understanding of what happened below ground.

    [Editor's Note: Video Presentation]

À  (1000)  

    As the video illustrates, the network of tunnels under Vimy is one we are still trying to understand and get a grasp on.

    The Canadians became very inventive. They developed features to make life underground as comfortable as possible, but these were basically all fighting tunnels. It is important and interesting to note that, at the height of the Vimy campaign, the electrical generation capacity for the underground tunnels at Vimy was greater than that of the city of Toronto. We actually had four subways leading from the rear lines to the front lines. They permitted our troops to move in safety underground, as opposed to being out in the open and accessible for shelling. And the subways not only served to move troops from the rear lines to the front lines, but were used to bring material back and forth. All over Vimy Ridge, we basically had underground light railways running on wooden rails so that there would be no noise.

    Part of this project will be to define all these features and map them. We are now using new techniques and modern technology to identify them. Where there is a risk, it will be noted and will form part of our next presentation.

    Work has already begun on this project. As I said, we're about seven months into it. In about three weeks' time, we'll actually be starting work on four sites overseas. The important thing to note here is that everything will be completed by July 2006. That date holds a certain significance because it will mark the 70th anniversary of the original dedication of the monument.

    Veterans Affairs is the lead for this collaborative effort, and we're relying very heavily on the services and expertise of Public Works and Government Services Canada. A number of documents have been elaborated in support of the project to identify risk and contingency plans, and these will be revised and updated as new developments occur. This is a significant and very visible initiative for the department. A significant communications plan and strategy has been detailed, and we will be working very closely with the Canada Remembers division of our department and with our communications folks to ensure that the message about the Vimy project gets out to all Canadians.

    The project will deliver on time. It will have four main elements, which you've just heard about. The main one that we are keying on is the fact that we will leave a legacy of tools and ongoing management for these sites. We will have a graphic record and an historical overview of all the work that has been done in the past and of our present work. This will form part of an information database and provide archival material. We will also develop maintenance standards and manuals with specifications for future care and maintenance of these sites, and we will basically develop an overall blueprint and operational guideline for the future management of the thirteen sites.

    Our Canadian memorials are real. Real people fought there. The memorials are physical reminders of those who paid the supreme sacrifice. The sites are not only sacred to veterans and still-serving members of the armed forces, they have deep meaning and significance for all Canadians of all generations and backgrounds.

    The emotions conjured when you go to any of these sites are simply overwhelming when you sit back and reflect on what happened here so many years ago. You can't help but be touched as a Canadian when you go there. The sites are preserved on sacred ground that is as near to its original condition as possible. Canada's effort to restore these symbols reaffirms once again the Government of Canada's commitment to Canadians to forever honour those who fought so valiantly for freedom.

    The Canadian Battlefield Memorials Commission was the overseer of the Vimy project during its construction. In November 1936, in the summary statement to Parliament reporting the commission's work and the wrap-up, the chair of the day, Major-General S.C. Mewburn, wrote:

It is possible that some body should be maintained, whose business it would be to keep alive the interest of Canadians in these memorials which have been constructed abroad and upon which so much care and money have been expended.

They should not...sink into an obscure corner of some department. Reports should be received from the officer or the official in charge and communicated to the Government through the appropriate department; problems should be dealt with from time to time, and the public should be kept informed through the press and otherwise.

    Thank you very much.

À  (1005)  

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.)): Thank you, Mr. Smith. That was a very comprehensive report, and we appreciate the update very much. I know this has been a personal project of yours, and I'm sure you're very pleased that this is going ahead. A lot of us who have had an opportunity to go there to see this magnificent monument are too.

    Are you ready for questions?

    Mr. André Smith: Yes.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): Right on.

    Mr. Bailey, you're it.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Thank you very much, sir. I truly did enjoy the presentation. Each time I think of this, some historical things come back to mind. You mentioned that the population of Canada was only 8 million people in 1914. We have to keep in mind that, at that particular time, there was an influx of millions of people who were mainly from the central European countries. Even though they counted in the stats for population, Canada wisely or unwisely didn't have them as part of the military. That wasn't because they would not have enlisted, but because we had some suspicion of them.

    When you think of that and compare it...as a Canadian, I love to do this to my American cousins. We had a population of eight million, and they basically had a population of 80 million. Yet if you take a look, two things escape Canadians' memory. One, through our participation in World War I, with a loss of some 67,000 men, as a ratio we lost more people in World War I as a proportion of our population than we lost in World War II as a proportion of our population. That gives me a real sense of history in terms what the government is doing here, and we should be very proud of that.

    The second point I want to make, Mr. Chairman, is that the restoration of the museum is not only for Canadian visitation. By the way, I want to ask that question while I'm thinking of it. How will the reconstruction interfere? There will be some interference with visitations, particularly during the summer months. Are plans underway to handle that? Certain areas of the restoration will be off limits, of course. But I'll come back to that.

    I just want to point out that, to me, the value of Vimy goes beyond the Canadian value. This is an international value to Canada. People from all over the world...more people who are non-Canadians visit that site each year. Once they go there and have knowledge of the contribution made at a time that will soon have been a hundred years ago, their tribute to Canada is going to be everlasting. So not only do we look at this as a memorial, we also look at it as a memorial to sell Canada and her efforts to the rest of world. It's a double-edged sword.

    Going back to the only question I have for you, how are we going to handle these visitations during the reconstruction?

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    Mr. André Smith: Mr. Chairman, that's an excellent question, and it's probably something I should have included in the presentation. I apologize for my oversight.

    We will make every attempt possible and, I have to say, within reason—and when I say “within reason”, I usually mean within budget—to keep the sites as accessible to the public as possible, the one caveat being that we don't want to incur any safety hazards for them.

    The Vimy Memorial itself will largely depend on what type of agreement we can arrive at with the prime contractor. Our preference would be that the project be undertaken in two separate halves. In other words, if we could undertake to rehabilitate and restore one side at a time, limiting construction and activity to one side at a time, then we could keep perhaps the other side of the platform and the walls open. Barring that, we will ensure that interpretive panels display the names on all the walls and surfaces that we have dismantled. We have photographed all of these, and we will probably develop interpretive panels that will be set aside so that anyone can go there and experience the monument.

    It's really interesting when you go to Vimy. Among the people who go today, there are a lot of young people. That's what always amazes me. They will inevitably look for their family name. They perhaps aren't related to the individual, but they sense a bond and it's a very tactile experience. They will go there and will put their hand on the stone to feel the name, to make the link. It's overwhelming.

    Anyway, that aside, we will endeavour to keep at least a portion of the monument open.

    We are also going to coordinate with any ceremonies. We have ceremonies that are always scheduled there. At Beaumont Hamel, for example, there is always a ceremony on July 1. On April 9, there is always a ceremonial event at Vimy. On the Saturday and Sunday preceding November 11, we have ceremonies at both Vimy and Beaumont Hamel. For those ceremonies, we will make every possible attempt to keep the front perimeter of the monument open. So I think that pretty well addresses the Vimy monument.

    At the smaller sites, the repairs will be such that they may have to take a different access path to the memorial mound at the centre, but none of the sites will be closed entirely to the public. It's our feeling that if anyone makes a concerted attempt to go to these sites, for whatever reason, then we want them to be available, we want them to be accessible, and we want them to have the opportunity to experience what these sites represent.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you, Mr. Smith.

    Moving on, we'll go to Mrs. Wayne, for seven minutes.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC/DR): I want to thank you very much for the presentation, André. It brought back a lot of memories, I have to say. You talked about the tunnels. I'll never forget when we went into the tunnels and I saw a YMCA mug. One of the men had had a Y mug, and they found different pieces of it. I want you to know that I had a picture taken of that mug and I presented it to the YMCA in Saint John, New Brunswick, and they were really and truly thrilled about it.

    There is one thing I want to ask you. At the present time, the word just came to us from Paris this week that they're looking at building another airport in Somme, right where our veterans' graves are. Many of us are very concerned about what is taking place there. It will create a major problem where our veterans' graves are if things continue in this direction.

    I know some people in our government are looking at this, but I was wondering if you're aware of what's happening, André.

    Mr. André Smith: Mr. Chairman, yes, I am aware of it. In my previous capacity as director general of the Commemoration Division, and now of the Canada Remembers program, this was certainly very near and dear to me, and while I'm doing something quite separate now, I do maintain an interest in that area.

    A number of facts are probably important here. I certainly don't want to go ahead of what Canada's position will be on this, but from the perspective of our program and from my recollection, potentially two Commonwealth cemeteries in which there are Canadians affected, along with between five and seven communal cemeteries in which we have Commonwealth war grave plots.

    Back at my office, I have a map showing the area that is proposed. It's important to remember at this point in time that this is only a proposal. Much as we have a system in Canada when we propose a major project like this, there will be at least a year of public consultations, input, and opportunities for representation. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission, of which Canada is a member partner—in fact, we are the second largest member country after England—will be well represented not only by the heads of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in respect to our interests and the Commonwealth's interests in this matter, but also by our High Commissioner, who acts as Canada's representative on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and reports directly to our minister in such matters. I'm sure he will represent Canada very well.

    I can't say what the final decision will be. I know where my heart would lie. But I'm quite confident that, at the end of the day, there'll be a lot of noise about this and the right decision will be made.

À  (1015)  

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I just have one other thing.

    When you were replying to Mr. Bailey's question, you were referring to how people will touch the wall when they see a name that's the same as that of one of their relatives. When I was there, one of the names on the monument was that of a relative of my mother. She has passed away, but she would have been pleased because they never found out what happened to her cousin. His name was on that wall, so I also touched that as well when we were there. It was very special.

    Also, when we were there, you'll recall, André, that they had it blocked off in certain sections. They had sections closed off so that you couldn't go into them. But that was beautiful. Who did that for you?

    Mr. André Smith: Our very good friends at Public Works. One of the gentlemen here today is Mr. Marc Monette, who is...I'm sorry, I forgot to address the chair. I apologize.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): We're friends here. You don't have to apologize for anything.

    Mr. André Smith: Our friend good friends and important partners at Public Works Canada had this commissioned for us. It's a very useful tool to help to present the monument, and it gives you an opportunity to see just how solid it is. This monument will not fall down. There are certainly problems with the finish work on it, but the monument's there for a long, long time.

    If I may be permitted, I would like to introduce Mr. Marc Monette, from Architectural and Engineering Services at Public Works. Mr. Monette and I first met and worked together on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier project, and I was very delighted and honoured to welcome him on this project. He's better known around Ottawa as being responsible for much of the work in the parliamentary precinct. In his person, we have a very highly qualified, competent, and dedicated individual.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you.

    Elsie, do you have any other questions before we move on?

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I'm supposed to be on House duty, Mr. Chair.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): You're okay here. They'll know where you are.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Okay. I'll them you said that.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): Absolutely.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Okay, then, no, that's fine. I don't have anything else. Thank you.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): Mr. Provenzano.

    Mr. Carmen Provenzano (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): I'd like to add something to the comment in response to Mrs. Wayne's commentary about the planned expansion or construction of the airport and the possible disruption of Canadian war dead gravesites. I would just add something Mr. Smith certainly wouldn't be able to say.

    We are all aware that the minister has been quoted in the media as stating that he will register, on behalf of Canada, the strongest objections to any disturbance or planned disturbance of those gravesites. We know a decision has not been taken and that the Commonwealth War Graves Commission is involved, but the minister has pledged to make the strongest representations to the French government.

    Mr. Chair, I have had the wonderful opportunity to visit most of the memorials that have been covered in this presentation this morning. If history teaches us anything, I certainly came away with a very clear understanding in this regard: that the graves of the Canadian war dead are treated with the highest respect, and that respect is extended to Canadians, period. I don't think any decision relating to this airport is going to be likely taken. We can count on the French to give it every consideration in our favour.

À  (1020)  

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you.

    I wouldn't mind asking you some questions myself. First of all, you said $30 million is wanted from Treasury Board, of which $20 million will go to Vimy Ridge, with the other $10 million going to the rest of the monuments. In your mind, is that going to be enough money to restore the rest of those monuments?

    Mr. André Smith: It would certainly do all that needs to be done in the context of what we've been mandated to do. Of course, we could always do more, but we're very happy with what has been allocated for this project. We are always looking for ways to save dollars and get as much mileage as we can out of the funding that has been made available. I'm quite confident, as are the members of my team, that we can accomplish everything we're setting out to do within the scope of this funding, yes.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): In your presentation, I noticed that you talked about flooding and the seepage of water around the base. Isn't it also true—correct me if I'm wrong—that some of the concerns have to do with lightning strikes hitting the top of that monument, meaning that it has to be redone. Is that true or false?

    Mr. André Smith: Yes, we suspect that perhaps there was a direct lightning strike on one of the stones on one statue right on top—and as you can see in the photos, we actually even have little lightning arresters on the monument. The stone itself has not been damaged, but it's a block that is probably close to a thousand pounds or so. It has been moved slightly off position, but that is really the only significant, visible damage to the pylons.

    Apart from that, the planners were very careful to make sure they used the very best quality of stone in the pylons, so they've held up remarkably well. They haven't been as open to the water damage just because of their design. It's the flat surfaces that are picking up the water. The pylons themselves are in quite good shape, and the lightning strike damage is quite easy to repair.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): I noticed one other thing while you were doing the presentation. I'm trying to remember, but to my knowledge—and again, correct me if I'm wrong—I don't think any ramps allow for disabled persons or veterans to climb up onto the monument from different ways. As you know—and we've had the opportunity to travel together sometimes—climbing these hills and climbing these steps is a bit of a problem for a lot of these aging veterans. I wonder if you plan on putting a ramp in for wheelchair veterans who show up or for people who have a hard time climbing those stairs, which they do. Is there any thought on that? Don't you perhaps think you should, if you haven't already done so?

    Mr. André Smith: Mr. Chairman, that's a very good question, and it's one we certainly thought about and debated extensively. We haven't yet arrived at a final solution. What we have to try to achieve is a balance between the visitation requirements and the heritage conservation aspects of this monument.

    We know only four steps are required at the back to get up to the back platform. I think it would be quite impossible to design something to come up from the front, but you're quite correct. I think we could design something at the back that would at least permit access to the platform area. But that still leaves a problem in terms of viewing the names that are on the Terrace Wall. You would again have to have something to get down to that access, but we're looking at that.

    One of the main concerns for anyone who has been there for a ceremony is that we presently have our wreaths laid at the base of the altar. It's an interesting point that these stairways were not part of the original design. They were put in later, when ceremonial aspects changed somewhat and it was decided to use the parade ground in front and the altar as the place to lay wreaths.

    Wreaths traditionally were laid on the platform area at the base of the pylons, so what we may do is change this feature, because some of our elderly veterans—Earnest “Smoky” Smith, our last remaining Victoria Cross recipient, being one of them—say, “Ah, I gotta climb those damned stairs again.” So that is a feature, Mr. Chairman, and it's something we are taking into active consideration.

À  (1025)  

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): Ms. Beaumier.

    Ms. Colleen Beaumier: I understand a couple of my questions have already been asked, so I'll wait until after the meeting to get the answers.

    Why is this going to take four years? Is it because only so much of the money is being doled out every year? Or are the funds all available?

    Mr. André Smith: Mr. Chairman, it's not going to take four years to complete all the projects. Many of them will be done well in advance of that. We will have four sites completed this summer.

    We've given ourselves a buffer of time for the Vimy monument because of the initial uncertainty about the acquisition of stone. That's still something that is perhaps our biggest challenge to date. We've located the stone, but locating the stone and concluding a satisfactory business agreement with the principals in Croatia is still something that has to be completed. We've had tremendous support from Ambassador Dennis Snider in Zagreb, as well as from his commercial attaché. Interestingly enough, the commercial attaché in Zagreb was formerly a guide at Vimy, and she has just been a tremendous help to us.

    But it's a difficult climate in which to do business. We hope to have a proposal to them by the end of April. If all goes well, using the Canadian calendar as opposed to the Croatian calendar, we should have stone on site at Vimy by early summer next year. Of course, a lot of these things are happening in parallel, but there is the tendering process and the matter not only of meeting Canadian specification requirements, but the requirements of operating in a foreign environment, a foreign country. So we've left ourselves a little bit of time.

    I think the other very nice thing we have targeted for is the 70th anniversary of the original dedication of the monument in 1936. That will be in July 2006. We may actually have the work completed before that, but we have identified that as our official completion date.

    Ms. Colleen Beaumier: In terms of the restoration of monuments on foreign soil, is that under a different jurisdiction from the maintenance and restoration of monuments here in Canada?

    Mr. André Smith: Mr. Chairman, does the question mean whether or not this is within Veterans Affairs?

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes.

    Mr. André Smith: No, it all comes under the same overall organization. It comes under the branch known as Public Affairs, of which Mr. Bob Mercer is the executive director. I happen to be responsible for the project that has been identified as a separate entity, that being the restoration of the thirteen battlefield memorials. As soon as I'm finished my project, my timeline expires and all of our work gets handed back over to the Canada Remembers organization, which will be responsible for the ongoing programming, as well as for maintenance for the foreseeable future.

    Ms. Colleen Beaumier: Following that, would the Korean War Memorial in Brampton also be under that jurisdiction? They basically paid for that themselves, so I'm wondering if Veterans Affairs will take it over and maintain it.

À  (1030)  

    Mr. André Smith: Mr. Chairman, I'm not in a position to comment on that. I think that's something that will perhaps be made much clearer over the coming months, but as it stands now, it wouldn't come under the program for which I am responsible.

    Ms. Colleen Beaumier: And just as one more question, your presentation—and I'm sorry I had to leave—was very moving. When we talk about the history of the young Canadian men who sacrificed so much in the past, I think it moves us all.

    When I was in school, we learned very little about Canadian participation in the war. It was actually my son, who is now 27, who brought me some of the facts you're giving me now. What are we doing, or what can we do in the department, to make sure our children in the school systems in Canada get these facts? You feel a tremendous sense of pride, and I think it's necessary for our kids to know Canadians' contributions in the world.

    Mr. André Smith: Mr. Chairman, the question is a very valid one, and certainly one that has always been very close to me personally because of my former responsibilities as the director general of the Canada Remembers program. We were always attempting to do our very best with what was available to us, and I think there was a realization that to do the work that needs to be done, more resources are required.

    At this point in time, I can only state that the extensive commemoration review that was done, starting in 2000 and just recently completed, is now the subject of something being presented to the minister and to senior officials in the department. I'm very confident that some of the concerns you have identified will have certainly been identified in the review process, and I'm very hopeful this will come to a very positive conclusion, hopefully in the near future.

    Ms. Colleen Beaumier: Perhaps this is a role our committee could take on in recommending that they find money for this, as part of Canadian Heritage or whatever department it comes out of, because it is important.

    Mr. André Smith: Certainly, Mr. Chairman, the support of this committee and all parliamentarians is critical to perpetuating the memory of the sacrifice and achievements of Canadians who have gone before us and Canadians who are still representing our country in fine fashion. We should be very proud.

    The Acting Chair (Mr. Bob Wood ): Thank you, Ms. Beaumier.

    Mr. Bailey, you have the floor for five minutes.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Thank you.

    In line with my colleague's statement, one of the problems we've had with this in Canada is the fact that, under section 93 of the British North America Act, each province jealously guards its right to education. Sometimes in any given department—and I've been in that business for a while—you have a surge of bringing to the attention of our students World War I and World War II history and so on. There's a concentrated effort, but a new philosophy then comes by and out it goes and something else comes in. It has disturbed me for the past fifty years that this indeed can take place in Canada, so I wanted to add that comment.

    The question I really want.... I've been looking for this. You mentioned that Great Britain was the largest, and that Canada had membership in the...what was the name of the organization?

    Mr. André Smith: Madam Chair, the organization is known as the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Can you tell me something, sir? Most of the memorials that we have are related to World War I, is that correct?

    Mr. André Smith: Madam Chair, the memorials I'm speaking of, the thirteen we have in Europe, are all related directly to World War I.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Does the U.S. have a World War I war memorial that you know of in any part of Europe?

    Mr. André Smith: I'm sorry, Madam Chair, but I'm not aware of one. I know they have some graves. Many of them have been repatriated, but that is a separate issue. My understanding is that there is no formal World War I U.S. memorial, but I really can't speak with authority on that subject. I'm sorry.

À  (1035)  

    Mr. Roy Bailey: I'll tell you why I asked that question. I had some first cousins stateside, a couple of whom I had never met before. They saw Vimy, and to tell you how impressed they were, they said, “Weren't we in that war?” I replied, “You were there, but you didn't get into it until 1917.” I kind of nudged them on that a little bit. But they said, “We don't have a war museum in Europe from World War I, do we?” I said I didn't know. I went looking the other day, but I couldn't find anything, and certainly nothing compared to Vimy.

    Why haven't we....? We had some great battles in Europe in World War II. Was it because of the great numbers and the fact that it was truly more of a world war than World War I was? Is there any plan to recognize any particular front in World War II? There were so many of them.

    Mr. André Smith: Madam Chair, after World War I, of course, it was felt that World War I was the war to end all wars, that there would never be a war again. From my research in respect to Vimy, I can tell you that as we were building the Vimy monument, even toward the end, the winds of war were being fanned again. In fact, some of the decisions in respect to the Vimy monument were affected by the winds of the war that was coming. Two statues, Canada—the one that is the most prominent—and the Spirit of Sacrifice, were both intended to be built out of bronze. But bronze is a very valuable material in wartime, and it was determined that they wouldn't be because the fear was that the statues would be pillaged.

    All that is to say that, because it was felt it was the war to end all wars, a decision was made by the Canadian Battlefields Memorial Commission to establish memorials at thirteen sites. There could have been many more, because there were many other very significant and important Canadian victories and defeats where memorials could have been erected. But it was decided to do these thirteen overseas.

    It was then decided in Canada to build our National War Memorial here in Ottawa, at the head of Elgin Street. The other decision that was made by government was to build the Peace Tower and the Memorial Chapel. Again, that is a symbol of the end of hostilities for World War I.

    In its floor, the Memorial Chapel has stones from every area where Canadians were involved in battle. I know that is your place of work everyday, but I don't know how many of you have actually had time to go up there to just pause and reflect. Certainly, if you have a moment, please do. It's a most beautiful place, and you can't help but be very proud to be Canadian when you go there.

    But that was the decision. It was decided that those monuments would represent the end of the hostilities of World War I. When World War II broke out and concluded, I think everyone just wanted to put it behind them. All of our cenotaphs, including our National War Memorial, had a plaque put on them to commemorate World War II and to give the period, and that was again done for the Korean War.

    There was a conscious decision on the part of government at the time to not go into granite, bricks, and mortar all over again. That is not to say that there are not interests from private regiments, battalions, and veterans groups, to organize and to build war memorials, or at least memorials to specific battles or events. We had one recently in Ortona; there was a large public interest and subscription for that. There is something now in the works, as you know, and our department is collaborating extensively with those principals and parties.

    So the climate may change, but all I can address is the decision of the time, and it was that there would be no specific memorials designed on behalf of the nation in regard to World War II.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: Thank you, sir.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Wood.

    Mr. Bob Wood: Thank you, Madam Chair.

    You talked about the quarry in Croatia, and about the fact that it's coming to its end as an active quarry. You say no number-one-quality stone is left, so we're going to number-two- and number-three-quality stone. How does that affect the monument, or does it affect the monument and the stone in it, from a guest's point of view? Also, what about the shop life or shelf life of these stones? The other ones have lasted for over sixty years, but if what we're going to use are second- and third-quality stones, what is the shelf life of those stones, and are we going to be back into this in another fifteen or twenty years?

À  (1040)  

    Mr. André Smith: Madam Chair, it's again an excellent question, and I'm glad to have the opportunity to elaborate on this subject. I just didn't want to make my presentation any longer than it was.

    When I speak of second- and third-quality stone, what I'm referring to is the overall quality of the blocks that are extracted from the quarry. That's not to say we can't still extract valuable and quality stone, it just means that instead of getting perhaps a 100% return on a block that we quarry, we might only get a 30%, 40%, or 20% return. In other words, we'll have as much as 70% or 80% wastage before we can get what we need that is of high quality. So there is still some quality stone, but the overall blocks don't have the overall quality of what was originally available, so we have more waste.

    In the quarry itself, there is sufficient stone for our needs. What we will pull out will be more than adequate for what we have do.

    The on-site visit was very valuable, because it pointed out to us the benefits of not only extracting the stone from this quarry if we can conclude a successful agreement, but also of having it machined to size on site. Our initial plan was to take the large, massive blocks, transport them to Vimy, and have them machined and prepared on site for the repair of the monument.

    What we are looking at now, based on the new information that we have, is having the stone extracted and brought down to monument-sized, six-surfaced blocks that would be ready use in the monument, and to also have some cut into slabs, because the platform surface is all slabs. We will be able to hopefully have all the stone prepared at some very highly efficient and capable machining facilities in Croatia, to our specifications. Our waste will be thereby reduced, because we will only buy the good material that we need, as opposed to bringing all the stone to Vimy and then having to throw maybe 80% of it away. And we will also hopefully save on labour costs.

    Mr. Bob Wood: You made a bold statement—at least, I thought you did—when you said it would be delivered on time. A lot of factors are involved in all that, whether they're labour factors, quarry factors, or whatever. Why are you that confident that this is going to be done on time?

    Mr. André Smith: Well, Madam Chair, I have an excellent team and I believe in my people. We have contingency plans in place should we perhaps not be able to negotiate for the stone. The biggest issue is the stone. Once we have the stone, the rest is mechanical. We have the technology now, and we have prepared for this for a long time. While I say we're seven months into the current project, we've been readying ourselves for this day for a good number of years. We know very well what has to happen.

    We've actually dismantled portions of the wall, so we anticipate no major surprises as we get into the repairs. With the equipment that we have today and the technology that we have today, we feel very comfortable that this can be accomplished.

    Mr. Bob Wood: You said you have an excellent team. Who is part of your team? Do we have somebody from Canada on the ground there all the time, overlooking all this stuff to make sure we don't get ripped off on anything, to make sure we get the quality on everything? As you outlined in your presentation, this is extremely important to Canadians, and I don't think Canadians want any kind of roughshod job. They want a very professional job. This is a tremendous monument, so we want to make sure this is done right.

    Talk about your team. Tell me about your team. Tell me who is on the ground. Tell me who is overseeing at the quarry to make sure we get the best stone. Tell me who is going to be overseeing the workmanship. Is it going to be Canadian people?

À  (1045)  

    Mr. André Smith: Madam Chair, I want to make it very clear that I have not given any questions to Mr. Wood in advance—

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    Mr. André Smith: —but I do welcome this question very much, because it's a very important question and I'm glad to have the opportunity to provide comment on it.

    At Veterans Affairs, we are a group of five in my immediate office. As my project leader, I have someone there who has basically been living and breathing these monuments for the last fifteen years, so they are very well versed in the understanding, the history, and the commemorative aspects of the monument.

    At Public Works, we have also assembled an excellent team. I had the opportunity to introduce Mr. Monette. He also has an expert team working under him. They're people who are very experienced in working with these types of materials, with stone. Mr. Monette has at his disposal the Dominion stone mason. In fact, during our recent visit to Croatia, I had the opportunity to be accompanied by Mr. Monette and the Dominion stone mason, as well as by another gentleman who is probably the number one authority in Canada on restoring older stone structures. So within Public Works and within the contract experts who provide input to Public Works and to my team, we have the very best.

    Also through Public Works, on the heritage conservation side, we have the benefit of their conservation experts. We have mapped every single stone in this monument. We know their precise dimensions. We know them down to the minutiae. The only surprise will come when we lift them out and see what their underside looks like.

    In Croatia, I mentioned that we have the ambassador and his support team. We also have Mr. Ivan Tomasic, the director of the Zagreb Institute of Geology and Geological Sciences, on retainer. He is an expert and is particularly very knowledgeable about all stones from Croatia, this one being the prime example. So he is available to us.

    Through the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, we have also retained the services of probably one of their leading operational experts in Europe. He has come over to work on my team full-time, and will be assigned to us full-time. He was the former chief of operations for all of France, responsible for all of their 5,000-some cemeteries in France. He was contracting in Europe, so he knows procurement and he knows everything we need to know in respect to the job for Vimy and for our other sites.

    We also have at our disposal the contracting office that is based in Koblenz, Germany. These are the folks who have done contracting for most of our embassies overseas, who have done contracting for our military when they were based in Germany, and who are now doing much work in contracting and procurement in support of Canada's operations worldwide, including the present operation in Afghanistan, Operation Apollo.

    So we have an international team. We have a strong team in Canada on the historical side, we have a strong team overseas on the operational side and based in on-site operations and management, and we have not yet begun to bring in our prime contractor—someone who will be brought in through a very specific and very tight screening and contracting process—in order to oversee the overall management of the restoration project. This we hope to have happening very soon, within the next couple of months.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Bailey.

    Mr. Roy Bailey: I just have a short question, because our time is running out. Do we have any technology today that we didn't have when we originally built the structure, something that would more or less waterproof it and prevent the oxidization?

    I ask that question because I just came back from viewing the new Parliament building that they're building in Edinburgh. I'm not too sure I agree with the modern artistic structure, but when I was walking downtown one day, I noticed a building that they had sandblasted to get the tarnish off. They said they don't do that anymore—mainly use sandstone—but after they have done the sandblasting, they seal it. I didn't have time to get into that, but because we have it here in Ottawa as well, is there any chemical or anything known that would give greater and longer preservation, in terms of what Bob talked about in the preparation of the new edition that we're making?

À  (1050)  

    Mr. André Smith: Madam Chair, this is also a very good question. It permits me to perhaps get a little bit technical, but I'll control myself and not go too far down that line.

    We understand much more about this monument today than was understood at the time it was built. When it was constructed, there was little or no understanding of the interaction of concrete and limestone. We now know that concrete and limestone, if they are put right together, are not a good mixture. We know we need a separation.

    I'll just digress a little bit, because it's interesting to note that when this monument was constructed, there was no such thing as plywood. There may have been matchboard, so the construction technique that was developed was to build two courses of stone. That formed the outside wall. They would then put a wooden frame inside, so they would go two courses at a time. They would pour cement, and the cement would basically bond into the stone. Much as you see a brick building today with the little metal clamps that come out to hold the mortar and the brick against the wall, here they were basically holding the cement to the stone, so the stone was put in place first.

    The stone was developed in such a manner that the outside face was smooth but the inside was serrated. Much as you would have over a window, you had a header at each stone level. It was a very complex building structure. It sounds very good and sounds very solid, but it makes it very difficult to repair when you try to extract this material. What it did was immediately provide a recipe for disaster, because you had the stone and the concrete bonded together.

    In a perfectly dry environment, there would be no problem. We've seen examples of this stone installed in Croatia. In the city of Split, for example, the Emperor Diocletian's palace, which dates to, I think, about 400 A.D., used some seget stone, and it's still performing reasonably well given its age. We've seen some more recent applications in and around Zagreb, where they installed the stone against a solid cement surface much as we did here, and they're experiencing the same problems. You have mould coming through, because the enemy is water. Water is acting with the concrete and the salts, and then the water gets into the limestone right away as calcite and all sorts of moulds come through.

    In the new construction, we're noticing that they put either an air separation between the concrete form and the stone, or they put in a physical barrier. If you have that in place, you immediately eliminate a lot of your problems. And you can add to that the fact that we now have much better technology with respect to the types of mortars that can be used. With the numerous freeze-thaw cycles that we experience there, and with the saturated stone, if you have a mortar that's too brittle with not enough give to it, in that huge thermal expansion from freezing cold to instantly hot, you get expansion and the stone will shatter. New mortars can be developed to provide some elasticity. So, again, we have a lot of new techniques and a lot of knowledge about the monument that wasn't there before.

    We have experimented. At one corner of the monument, we've lifted up the pavers. The monument was designed to have a gradual slope from the pylons out to the side in order to shed the water. It was believed the water would go down to the side, through a very complex and intricate drainage system that would run the water off. But from the very beginning, even as they were building and even before they started to build the pylons, the water was resting on the deck and going out through the sides. That's what has caused the damaged to all the names on these bulwark walls.

    What we have done is experiment. We did a trial project about three years ago in one corner. We lifted the pavers and put down a rubber membrane, brought it up against the bulwarks, and sealed it. There are some problems where the seal meets against this inside wall; nevertheless, where the rubber membrane is on the deck, we have experienced a dry environment down below.

À  (1055)  

    Let me tell you what happened. One of the first approaches to repair—it was a makeshift repair—was to drill holes up to the platform. That did two very bad things. First, it exposed the rebar. When you expose the rebar, it's not going to perform well because the air gets at it and then the salts and the chemicals start working on it, so you basically disintegrate your rebar. The other thing was that it permitted the water to go down, but you still got the salts. We actually had stalactites basically hanging off a cement platform that rests on top of a large number of support pylons inside, so we knew there was a major water problem with the platform. That was what was causing the intrusion into these side walls.

    Again, it was the same type of problem with the second level: water intruding into the front wall and holding on the stairwells.

    So we have identified what these design problems are, we have developed techniques that we know will address many of these issues, and we also have better knowledge of the interaction of materials and how we need to isolate them or separate them.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Wood.

    Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, I'll address Vimy Ridge in just a second, but you talked about the twelve other memorials in Europe. If I heard you right, basically these are all going on at the same time, or very close to the same time, so that we can get all these things done for smaller moneys. Are the same people overseeing all these?

    Mr. André Smith: Yes.

    Mr. Bob Wood: Is that going to stretch our personnel a little thin on this? How's this going to work? If we're doing all the other monuments at basically the same time, is somebody going to drive around every day or every week just to see how the construction is going?

    Mr. André Smith: Well, Madam Chair, a lot of these operational mechanics still need to be worked out. We're certainly going to rely...we're going to have experts and project managers from Canada there probably on a rotational type of basis in order to have someone on site. We will have the staff member from Commonwealth War Graves Commission with us on a permanent basis for the duration of the project. As I stated earlier, he is an expert in managing operational teams who are quite capable of working on these smaller sites.

    When it comes to the big project, this is the one for which we will perhaps need someone on site full-time. The project manager from Public Works and his experts will be liaising directly with the prime contractor. It will be the responsibility and duty of the prime contractor to make sure everything happens as per our requirements and specifications on this monument.

    Mr. Bob Wood: I have one more question and that's it.

    In this little brochure that we've been handed, it says the site is still subject to the laws of France. Under the laws of France, is that going to be a problem? Do they have labour laws that differ from ours? You've talked about other people from other countries being involved in this. Has anybody checked out the laws of France to find out if they are problem? Maybe they are and maybe they're not. I don't know.

    Mr. André Smith: Madam Chair, because of our past experience in this area and on these sites, we're quite familiar with them. During my time at the Commemoration Division, we built a visitor and interpretive centre at Vimy, and we also built one that was recently dedicated, just this past July, at Beaumont Hamel. That was a $3.5-million project. These were built using primarily French contractors and labourers from overseas, while the interpretive material and all the content was developed in Canada. So we are quite familiar with working with the Europeans, and we'll also have the expertise of the contracting office out of Koblenz, Germany, as I said earlier.

    But the rules are somewhat different. There's no doubt about that. The labour laws are different. We will meet the Canadian standards in all cases. Where the European standards are higher than or exceed our standards, we will meet those.

    Now, with one of our projects—it was the Beaumont Hamel Visitor Centre—there was one occasion when there was a conflict because the two laws just didn't jibe. It had to do with in-floor heating. In terms of the Canadian requirement and the French requirement, there was just no parallel and they just couldn't match, so we basically had to eliminate that portion of our design. But in respect to this one here, we've done some preliminary investigations, and we don't anticipate any major problems. There are no problems that cannot be overcome in respect to compatibility between the Canadian requirements and regulations and the European ones.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    For anyone who is on House duty, I believe there's a quorum call, and the bells have been ringing for quite a while.

    Mr. Smith, that was an extremely interesting presentation, and I think you satisfied a little need inside of us in terms of reminding us of the pride we can take in the performance of Canadians around the world. Thank you very much for your presentation. We look forward to the completed project.

Á  (1100)  

    Mr. André Smith: Thank you, Madam Chair.

    The Chair: This meeting is adjourned.