SHUR Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

SOUS-COMITÉ DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT INTERNATIONAL DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, December 1, 1998

• 0947

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Colleen Baumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.)): Good morning, and welcome. We're sorry we're a little late; however, you'll have plenty of time, I think.

Some of you were here for the committee meeting on Thursday for Raymond Chan. Today we're going to have the opportunity to speak to individuals about the ethnic violence in Indonesia. Welcome.

Mr. Jonas Ma (Co-Chair, Media and Public Education Subcommittee, Canadians Concerned about Ethnic Violence in Indonesia): I'm Jonas Ma. I'm the co-chair of the media committee of Canadians Concerned about Ethnic Violence in Indonesia. With me is Mr. Herman Tan, who is our the co-chair of our media committee, as wel as Mr. Yusni Hilwan. We have a special witness with us, Natali Indrawidjaja. We also have other members of our coalition with us, Ayrini and Trisna Wijaya. We also have a friend from Ottawa who is joining us.

• 0950

Perhaps I should start the presentation. The group Canadians Concerned about Ethnic Violence in Indonesia—CCEVI—is a coalition of concerned Canadian individuals and community groups committed to ending ethnic violence and protecting human rights in Indonesia by creating public awareness and participating in the development of Canada's policy, particularly as it's related to the situations of Indonesia's ethnic Chinese community, such as the occasions of today.

Our presentation today will start with a review of the historical context of anti-Chinese discrimination and violence in Indonesia. Then we will speak on the riots of mid-May of this year, as well as recent developments. Last, we will present our coalition's recommendations as to what Canada can do in this situation.

Perhaps I should invite Mr. Hilwan to start with the historical context of anti-Chinese violence and discrimination.

Mr. Yusni Hilwan (Secretary, Canadians Concerned about Ethnic Violence in Indonesia): Thank you, Mr. Ma.

Good morning, distinguished members of the committee on human rights.

I will speak on the historical context of anti-Chinese violence and discrimination in the pre-Suharto era. Under the Dutch colonial case structure, the population of the Netherlands East Indies was divided into Europeans, foreign orientals, and natives in roughly descending order of legal and social privilege.

The Dutch restricted the Chinese, as foreign orientals, to living in specified urban areas and required them to have passes to legally travel outside these areas, thus severely limiting contact with the non-Chinese Indonesians. In addition, the Chinese were steered into mercantile and commercial functions while the pribumi, or native Indonesians, were steered into either agriculture or working for the colonial administration.

The result of this colonial segregation was that the most politically active Chinese did not support the Indonesian nationalist struggle, nor were Indonesian nationalist bodies willing to accept even sympathetic Chinese as equal partners in their struggle. There are, however, some Indonesian-Chinese intellectuals who supported the Indonesian struggle to gain independence from the Dutch.

During the decade after Indonesia gained full sovereignty from the Dutch in 1949, the Indonesian government implemented economic policies that discriminated against the ethnic Chinese in an attempt to curtail their perceived economic dominance. For example, in 1959 the government prohibited the Chinese from engaging in retail trade in rural areas. While the poorer Chinese were hard hit, other Chinese businessmen were still able to prosper by forming relationships with military officers. They acted as financiers for army commands and individual generals, and de facto managers for corporations owned by the military.

In 1959 the Sukarno regime implemented “guided democracy”, which stressed nationalism, socialism, and autonomy for Indonesia. Chinese-Indonesian citizens were explicitly included as one of the suku, or ethnic groups of the Indonesian nation. In addition, President Sukarno also supported the socialist-leaning Chinese-Indonesian organization, Baperki, which stands for Consultative Body for Indonesian Citizenship. It was demanded that Chinese-Indonesian citizens be given the same rights as pribumi Indonesians.

In 1965 a coup attempt against Sukarno resulted in an army-sponsored anti-communist backlash. For two years, widespread anti-Chinese violence occurred, anti-Chinese themes filled the popular press, and pribumi businessmen began to agitate once again for anti-Chinese economic measures.

In light of the coup attempt, Baperki was banned because it was considered to be under the umbrella of the Communist party. Its leaders were put in jail and many of its members in the countryside were massacred.

I'll turn next to the Suharto years. After Suharto came to power in 1965 the government's policy was to forcibly assimilate Chinese-Indonesians through openly discriminatory policies. Numerous pieces of legislation and executive branch decrees were implemented that aimed to eradicate all traces of Chinese ethnic identity. These included prohibitions on further residency or work permits issued to new Chinese immigrants, their wives or children; prohibitions on any capital raised by “foreigners” in Indonesia being transferred abroad; and a ban on “foreign schools”, except for the use of diplomatic corps and their families. In any national school, the number of Indonesian pupils are required to exceed that of foreigners.

• 0955

There has also been condemnation of the public display of Chinese cultural practices as having undesirable psychological, mental, and moral influence on Indonesian citizens and obstructing the process of assimilation; banning the celebration of Chinese religious festivals in public, and requiring religious practice and observation of Chinese traditions to be kept indoors or within the home; prohibitions on any land being acquired for the construction of Chinese temples, building any new temples, expanding or renovating existing temples, or using any other building as a temple; and restriction of Chinese print to in a single newspaper only, Harian Indonesia, the justification being that dissemination of materials in Chinese or Chinese characters hinders the objectives of national unity and ethnic Chinese assimilation. Any use of Chinese in books, calendars, almanacs, food labels, medicines, greeting cards, clothing, decorations, or other logos and signs is banned.

Other measures include obliging Indonesians to drop the use of the term “Tionghoa”, as ethnic Chinese call themselves, and replacing it with the term “Cina”, a derogatory term, and authorizing special codes to be put on identification cards indicating ethnic Chinese origin.

Anti-Chinese violence is a pervasive theme in modern Indonesian history. According to a report by Human Rights Watch, anti-Chinese violence in one form or another has accompanied virtually every outbreak of social and political unrest during President Suharto's 30 years in power. From the invasion of East Timor in December 1975, where some 40 Timorese-Chinese were massacred in Dili harbour on the day of the arrival of Indonesian troops, to a huge workers' rally in Medan, North Sumatra, in April 1994, where the death of an ethnic Chinese businessman prompted a letter of concern from the Chinese government.

Over 1,000 ethnic Chinese may have been killed in spasms of anti-Chinese violence that struck North Sumatra, Aceh, Kalimantan, and Bali in the aftermath of an attempted coup in 1965, although the vast majority of hundreds of thousands killed in the anti-communist pogrom that accompanied Suharto's coming to power were non-Chinese Indonesians.

In the last two years, anti-Chinese violence has increasingly included attacks on churches, adding another explosive element to the mix, as many Chinese are also Christian.

At this point in time I would like to turn over the presentation to my colleague, Mr. Herman Tan.

Mr. Herman Tan (Chief-Secretary, Canadians Concerned about Ethnic Violence in Indonesia): My name is Herman Tan. As Mr. Hilwan has covered a little of the historical background of the violence and discrimination against Chinese, I'll be covering the events of the mid-May violence. Basically, this is when the peak of the violence started in Indonesia.

The violence started because of the Indonesian economic crisis. As it deepened in the latter part of 1997 and the early part of 1998, social unrest increased. Inevitably, ethnic Chinese once again became victims of this unrest as Indonesians protested the rising prices of food and other necessities. In various cities throughout the country, Chinese shops were looted or destroyed in a series of riots.

The violence reached its peak in Jakarta in May, after a lengthy series of student protests. On May 12 four student protesters were shot dead at Jakarta's prestigious Trisakti University. Within 24 hours riots began to spread throughout the city, with widespread looting and arson. The results of these riots were nearly 1,200 people dead; and 40 malls, nearly 2,500 shop houses, and 1,200 cars looted or destroyed.

• 1000

Recently it has become widely accepted by many, including the Indonesian government itself, that the May violence may have been planned to some extent by renegade military factions.

On June 2 the National Commission on Human Rights issued a statement condemning the violence and suggesting that it had been organized.

On July 23 the government appointed a joint fact-finding team, or TGPF in its short form, consisting of members of the armed forces, government agencies, and human rights advocates. The team was to examine allegations that the violence was planned.

On August 13 General Wiranto, commander of the armed forces, publicly apologized for the failure of the armed forces to prevent violence. In his speech on August 21 he acknowledged that the soldiers were involved in the violence itself.

We would like to stress that the numbers do not fully reflect the actual cases that occur. Many victims and their families have kept silent out of fear for their own safety.

In June, reports began to emerge of widespread rapes and sexual abuse targeted toward ethnic Chinese women. On July 13 the Volunteer Team for Humanity, a group led by Father Sandyawan, a well-known priest, released a report stating that 168 cases of sexual abuse had taken place, of which approximately 130 were rapes. The report said that 20 victims died. The report contained details of horrific sexual torture, several of which involved genital mutilations and included victims as young as nine years old.

These reports of rape set apart the violence of May 1998 from all previous episodes of anti-Chinese violence in Indonesia and it galvanized Chinese communities worldwide. In response to international pressure and condemnation, the Indonesian government promised to investigate the rapes, support the victims, and bring the perpetrators to justice.

Recently, however, certain government officials accused human rights activists of fabricating the accounts of rapes in order to discredit the Indonesian government. On August 17, the national police commander, General Roesmanhadi, threatened organizations that had been vocal in publicizing the rape of ethnic Chinese women with charges of spreading false rumours.

On August 24 Lieutenant-General Moetojib, chief of state intelligence, stated publicly that there was no evidence the rapes had occurred and the report of sexual abuse may have been fabricated to defame Indonesia and cause the disintegration of national unity.

On August 26 and 27 the armed forces commander, General Wiranto, and Women's Minister Tuty Alawiyah made public statements to the effect that the rapes of ethnic Chinese women during the May riots were unproven and that reports of sexual abuse may have been fabricated.

On September 21, however, the joint fact-finding team submitted an interim report to the government and the military. According to the team's chair, Marzuki Darusman, the team's interim report confirmed that sexual assaults, including rape, did occur during the May riots. In a statement to The Jakarta Post, Marzuki stated that it was important for the team to assure the public that sexual assaults had occurred and for the Indonesian government to acknowledge that point.

In terms of the most recent developments, in June, July, August, and September there were several well-documented cases of rape of ethnic Chinese women in June, July, and August. There were reports that pedicab drivers were being given money to attack or rob Chinese passengers. Anti-Chinese pamphlets were circulated in several Indonesian cities. In response, many Chinese Indonesians resorted to buying firearms on the black market and barricading their homes and businesses to protect themselves.

As social unrest continues as a result of increasing economic hardship, anti-Chinese riots continue to occur throughout Indonesia.

On October 10, 1998, a teenage volunteer with the Volunteer Team for Humanity was found brutally murdered in her home. Within two days, the police arrested her neighbour for the crime, claiming the murder had resulted from a bungled burglary. The speed of the arrest caused many human right activists to suspect that the investigation had not been properly conducted. In any event, Martadinata Haryono's murder raised further concerns on the dangerous situation of victims of sexual violence during the May riots, their families, and activists working to help them.

• 1005

On November 3, 1998, the team released its report on the May riots. It concluded that 85 women of mainly ethnic Chinese origin were sexually assaulted during the May riots, and 52 of these were verified cases of rape.

In addition, the team found there was evidence that members of the army, including Lieutenant-General Prabowo, Suharto's son-in-law, had been involved in inciting the violence. The team called for a full investigation into the main causes and the main actors involved in inciting this violence.

On November 10 street protests and riots commenced and continued for several days in connection with the meeting of the legislative assembly.

To date 18 people have been killed and over 450 injured. The government used the military as well as civilian guards to deal with the protesters, and there is some indication that real, as opposed to rubber, bullets were fired at the crowds.

On the weekend of November 13 the military also detained nine dissidents, and this hasn't stopped. The violence continued. Just in the past weekend of November 20 more violence erupted. More than 20 churches and five Christian schools were destroyed or burned. This also continues.

We have just received the most updated news from Indonesia. On December 1 there was another eruption of violence in the small cities, and again two churches were destroyed.

Now I would like to turn to the eyewitness, Natali, who was in Indonesia during the May riots. She will be able to give us some of her own testimony.

Ms. Windu Astuti Indrawidjaja (Member, Canadians Concerned about Ethnic Violence in Indonesia): Living in Indonesia as an ethnic Chinese was never comfortable. There are many rules that differentiate us from other Indonesians. We need more documentation papers. You can see the difference in our ID number, which shows whether we are Chinese descendants or not.

It may not be comfortable, but some of us still consider it bearable until what happened last May in Jakarta. We kept our guard up during and after the riots. We didn't have the guts to show ourselves, because when we would come out we felt like all eyes were piercing us. Maybe it was just our feeling, but we all had that creepy feeling.

As time went by we kept from going out from the house as much as we could. It is not safe outside even after the riots. The taxis are not safe. Some drivers told their passengers that they were paid to rape Chinese women, so we won't go out unless we have our own car or there is someone in the family to drive us.

Robbery still occurs from time to time, since the police officers allow them to do that. Or maybe they're afraid of their outbursts. We even have a minister of the republic who said that robbing 5% of people's property is okay. I wondered what kind of country I was living in.

Not long after they focused on abusing the women they started to take the boys. Unbelievably, they took boys from the mall or from the street and cut their penises. Afterwards, I learned that some of my friends were involved with the Volunteer Team for Humanity. I've heard a lot about the victims from them, since they know that I'm going to Canada and they hope that knowing this would allow me a chance to tell of what happened back there.

I have some stories about the rape victims. A woman was wrapped in a raincoat when she was helped by a priest. He asked a woman volunteer to help out because he could not stand it. The woman volunteer found out that the woman's nipples were cut off and inside her vagina was a roll of film.

An Indonesian priest told the story that he was cursed by a man on the street saying “Your people are bastards. Your people raped my one-and-a-half-year-old baby to her death.” I assumed the man was crazy because of it, since he would have been beaten to death if he had said it to other people.

A brother gave up his life for his sisters and mother. He fought the people who tried to rape his family. In return, he was tortured to death. The wall of his house is covered with his blood. They banged his body against the wall until he died. The mother and sisters survived and they didn't get raped as they all were shown what happened to him. As the time passed, they left.

• 1010

The people who got robbed told us that they were not just robbing things; they did it with hatred. If they couldn't take the things, they would destroy them. They put their marks all over the wall, even on the ceiling. God knows what they did inside the house, because they left a very smelly odour that didn't go away for months.

A week before my departure, another riot occurred, not as big as last May. There were some armed civilian groups to counter the students' movement. We didn't understand why the government let people, armed like that, wander around the city. We also saw the armed forces shoot the students, beating them up even when they had already fallen to the ground.

After that incident on Friday, November 13, there was some looting and robbing similar to what happened last May. Some buildings were destroyed and burned.

The street and the toll roads were never safe again. Masses of people would stop cars and force the people inside to give them their money. They were armed with stones, iron, or anything else. You can see on TV how a man was beaten in his car; the car windows were broken, and he was bleeding all over. Not a single police officer was around. It was like a wild world out there. Even going to and coming from the airport was not safe. They were sure that the people going to and coming from the airport must have a lot of money.

The day after my departure there was another riot, just a week after the last one. This happened on Sunday, November 22. At least 13 people died in this religious conflict between Christians, mainly of Ambonese ethnicity, and Muslims.

The incident spread further to mass destruction and burning of at least 20 churches and 5 Christian schools belonging mainly to the ethnic Chinese. Christians have been targeted previously in the form of church burning and violence to our clerics. In the petition letter sent to President Habibie by the Indonesian Christian Communication Forum, it was reported that as of August, 483 churches were closed, damaged or burned, and 20 clergymen or Christian workers killed as a result of their religion.

The Chair: Thank you, Natali. I know that wasn't easy for you to do, and we appreciate you giving the account.

What I would like to do right now, because we were late starting, is have some questions. How would it be if we do the questions first, and then you can finish? That's a little different from what we normally do, but I think it might be appropriate, because then we would make sure that everyone had an opportunity for questions.

Mr. Martin.

[Translation]

Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[English]

Thank you all very much for coming here today.

With regard to Mr. Habibie and his actions since he has taken over power, perhaps you could tell us what Mr. Habibie has done, what he hasn't done, what he should be doing, and what hope you hold out for Mr. Habibie in terms of security for the Chinese population and also in terms of ensuring economic stability for the country.

Lastly, in my understanding, General Wiranto was being looked upon before as being quite fair-minded, but to my knowledge recent reports have really shown him to be a lackey of the previous government and somebody not to be trusted. I don't know whether General Wiranto is somebody who is actually going to support Chinese rights or whether he is somebody who is trying to cover up these injustices.

Mr. Yusni Hilwan: General Wiranto was considered a moderate. We had hopes on him when Suharto gave up power and Habibie was kind of elected as president. We had hoped that Wiranto could restore order, but obviously what happened is now known to the world.

There's a conflict within the military forces. His power is not supreme, as you can see. In the joint fact-finding mission, General Prabowo Subianto was mentioned there as a person who needs to be brought to justice as one of the recommendations.

• 1015

So it's common knowledge among the people and even in some newspapers that the Kopassus, the strategic elite command headed by General Prabowo, the son-in-law of Suharto, were involved in these raidings, rapes and murders. So what is happening right now is that it looks like Habibie is losing power.

If you are following Indonesian history, there was a special assembly for the elections in May last year. There were a lot of student protesters there. General Wiranto was not supposed to use live bullets. Some of the students were killed by snipers and there were witnesses who said those snipers fired live bullets. The live bullets themselves were also found in their dead bodies. So obviously General Wiranto doesn't have full control of the army.

That is basically what is going on. Does that answer your second question about Wiranto?

Mr. Keith Martin: Yes.

Mr. Yusni Hilwan: Right now the students have even demanded that he resign. The mass of the population in Indonesia consider Habibie as just another Suharto, because he was appointed by Suharto as vice-president. It's difficult when you're in that position.

One of the most notorious things happened when the attorney general was appointed. In about 60 days he was going to investigate Suharto's practices, his corruption, etc., and he was just replaced with the current attorney general. So basically you can see there's a lot of power play. Habibie is not following the demands of the democracy and the reform movement.

Mr. Keith Martin: Is Suharto pulling the strings behind the scenes, or is he independently engaging in these actions?

Mr. Yusni Hilwan: There is news that with his massive wealth, his billions of dollars, it could be possible, but there's no proof right now. It is suspected that his son-in-law, Prabowo Subianto, is behind all the riots and the killing of the students.

Mr. Herman Tan: May I add something to the comments Mr. Hilwan is making with regard to President Habibie? What has he done since he became president in May? What would the Chinese community like him to do in this whole thing in Indonesia?

We would probably see that since his presidential coming into place in May until now violence has never stopped. In fact, it continues to escalate. Since the day of his presidential election until today we can see already that at least a total of 45 churches have been burned. Furthermore, it has taken him so long to publicly acknowledge and condemn the violence against the ethnic Chinese community. Initially he denied that there was any systematic plan, that there was someone behind the scenes.

Furthermore, on the report, the joint fact-finding team originally appointed by the government and which included members of the government, they are trying to deny the truthfulness of the report.

Mr. Ma will continue later with the recommendations.

The ethnic Chinese would really like to see President Habibie take stronger steps to stop the violence. In particular, we would like him to stop using violence against the students who would like a true democratic country in this situation right now. So this is basically what President Habibie pushes another time.

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The Chair: Madam Debien.

[Translation]

Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval Est, BQ): As you undoubtedly know, the Honourable Raymond Chan travelled to Jakarta, Indonesia in October. He met with a number of Indonesian officials, including President Habibie and his ministers. In his report, Mr. Chan recounts some general impressions he was left with and reflected upon a number of encouraging signs he witnessed. I will talk about these a little later. I would be interested in getting your opinion of this.

Since his visit in October, he has admitted quite frankly that some events that have taken place have confirmed his impression of the prevailing instability in Indonesia.

One of the encouraging signs he saw was the more open dialogue on the future of the country. As members of the Chinese community, I would imagine that you are part of this future.

He also talked about NGOs and the emerging civil society, which is making its presence increasingly felt and making recommendations to the government. We were also informed that political and economic reforms had been launched and that further to the May 1998 riots, the Human Rights Commission and the investigating team had also managed to get the attention of the Habibie government.

What is your impression of these encouraging signs observed by Minister Chan? I don't deny that Mr. Chan has since admitted that some serious problems have once again emerged and that the encouraging signs observed were again being threatened.

I am particularly interested in hearing your views on NGOs, the Human Rights Commission and civil society in general. Do you feel that conditions have improved for these sectors since President Habibie's visit?

Mr. Jonas Ma: I would just like to point out that while Mr. Chan was in Indonesia, an NGO volunteer was murdered. Therefore, I can't say that conditions have improved any in this area. The international pressures brought to bear by the Chinese community in the United States and Canada in particular and by other world countries have made a difference and I believe the Indonesian government realizes that the eyes of the entire world are focused on their country. Perhaps this will prompt it to take some measures to allow NGOs a voice, but I don't think the threat has entirely disappeared. This is only one sign. I don't feel that the situation has improved much. The government may have taken steps to appease the international community, but I don't think that any real changes have occurred. I will let other members of our organization provide further details.

Mrs. Maud Debien: I'd like to hear your views on the Human Rights Commission.

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Mr. Jonas Ma: The Human Rights Commission deserves to be commended for its worthy efforts.

[English]

Mr. Herman Tan: In November the report was released by the joint fact-finding team.

Mr. Jonas Ma: In November the Indonesian Human Rights Commission made statements about the report. The Indonesian Human Rights Commission made some mixed statements about this?

Mr. Jusni Hilwan: Yes, they want that to be endorsed.

[Translation]

Mr. Jonas Ma: The Human Rights Commission had recommended that the report be endorsed and that the objectives in place when General Suharto was in office be pursued. NGOs have also made considerable progress since then.

[English]

The Chair: Madam Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): I'm sitting in for Svend Robinson, who is a member on this committee for the NDP. I was actually part of a delegation that went to Indonesia in September with Ms. Augustine and the Canadian Council for International Cooperation. We had the opportunity to meet with some human rights activists and to hear first-hand about the situation there, the increasing tension and violence that was escalating, particularly directed towards Chinese Indonesians. So I really thank you for coming today and for your personal account. I think it is very important that it be heard.

In my riding of Vancouver East there's also a coalition that has been very involved. And there's been a huge amount of concern in the local community about the situation in Indonesia. So I appreciate very much your recommendations. One thing we heard consistently from the people we met was a need for Canada to speak out and to take a stance as part of the international community.

I've heard a lot locally in Vancouver and we also heard in Jakarta about the involvement of the military in the May riots. I just wonder if you have any more up-to-date information about the team report, the fact-finding mission, and what they were able to discern about the involvement of the military, either informally or systematically. Has there has been any signal or indication from the government that they intend to take action around the military involvement? We heard very strongly about the military intervention and involvement in all aspects of society.

We've had some letters and concerns expressed locally, and this is covered partially by one of your recommendations. We've had some reports that it has become increasingly difficult for people seeking refuge in Canada to go through the permit system. There are obstacles and roadblocks.

If you have any information on that from your organization, it would be very helpful, because I'm getting some concern expressed to me back in Vancouver and I would appreciate hearing about it.

Mr. Herman Tan: As far as military involvement is concerned, as stated in the report from the joint fact-finding team, it is indeed being investigated and verified. That's why it was reported in the joint fact-finding report that there is military involvement behind it. And we have here an almost 16-page report. If we may, we could pass a full report to you later on.

• 1030

In that report the involvement of the military is clearly stated. This is why, on the day of the release of the report, the member of the government team was not present. Because they knew there was military involvement in the riots and so on, they tried not to be present because they were embarrassed.

Even today the report has not been actually officially acknowledged by them. This is why we need international pressure, to pressure the government to take action based on recommendations by the report. It is very, very important.

As far as the immigration situation is concerned, the difficulty in particular, I think, is that right after the riots, between June, July and August, it was increasingly made difficult for people, especially ethnic Chinese, who were applying as visitors or even as students coming to Canada. I have a number of cases with me—for example, students who have complete qualifications as far as financial support from their own families goes, and solely based on the motivation for coming to Canada as before. Canada is wide open to accepting foreign students who are pursuing further education, and the student had no intention to stay behind in Canada, for example. In fact, he even had a guarantee from someone here saying that after his study he would go back to Indonesia, with the acceptance and the tuition fee paid in full. Everything was paid. The application was turned down, basically without any solid reason. So we have a few cases like that.

Mr. Yusni Hilwan: I can add a little bit. I have personal experience. In June I had a family wedding in Winnipeg, and there were so many hassles to get a visa just for them to attend the wedding. They had to get a report from the priest confirming that indeed the wedding was going to take place in Winnipeg, and they needed all those kinds of papers before the visa office would issue them visitors' visas.

So it has to be a very bona fide type of thing. It's very difficult for the Chinese population to come as either tourists or visitors, and as Herman said, he has a few cases where students were also rejected, even though they were bona fide.

I have a little bit of information to add to our comment on that. As you know, the joint fact-finding group has an internal struggle there, if you have followed it. They have a 1,000-page detailed report. What is here is the English translation of the summary. They had again so much difficulty releasing it. They were planning to release it in June, but they had so much obstruction from the other side, of course, like the military— Six members of the joint fact-finding group were military officers. So at the end, they basically showed they had guts and said “Okay, without the military, we are still going to issue this”, because they had so much pressure.

So you can see that, as Herman mentioned, there were internal conflicts inside the joint fact-finding group because of that question, Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. Ms. Augustine is next.

Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

Again, I'm pleased to see you and to know that you're keeping alive the entire issue with this committee. You've been before the general committee and now you're before the subcommittee, asking us, especially in this UN year of celebration, to consider the situation in Indonesia.

I too was with Libby, and we had extensive visits and experiences that gave us a good picture of what is happening there. I think Libby would agree that we watched with concern the further escalation and the continuation— The issue of the military was something we heard time and time again. If I understood what we heard, I think they said 40% of the places in their parliament were reserved for the military.

• 1035

Mr. Yusni Hilwan: Approximately 75 seats out of about 500 are reserved for the military. Right now, they have 75 appointed, but others can go in as a kind of party. Basically, there are quite a number of military in the parliament, as you said, but I don't remember the exact numbers.

Mr. Herman Tan: I think it's been based on pressure from the student demonstrations and so on. I think the government has brought it down to 40% of the seating in the parliament there.

Ms. Jean Augustine: It seemed to me that most people were saying they would like to see the military go back to doing the work that military people do, and leave the politics to politicians. I'm not sure if you can speak about that November forum, that November meeting, at which there were, I think, a whole series of discussions about the democratic process or the movement towards elections, etc. I understood there was going to be some session—I'm not too sure whether you'd call it that or not—of the parliament that would focus on those issues. We were hearing about an opportunity, a window that was going to be open at some point in time, when they would be looking at the involvement of the military in politics.

Mr. Yusni Hilwan: It dates way back to the 1950s, when the military undertook dual functions. As well as doing military duties, the military also governed or became executors in the government. It was basically to more or less gain power, of course, so it even started during the Sukarno era, under General Nasution at that time. Basically, Sukarno gave Nasution quite a lot of power. From that time onward, until today— Basically, once you have power, you are afraid to lose that kind of power, understandably.

Right now, of course, the student demonstrators keep on saying this dual function should be abolished, that the military should go back to its military duties. But the military, other than appointed members, is also in what's called the Golkar party. This is the number one party that ruled Indonesia during Suharto years, and basically almost all the members of Golkar who made it to the parliament are from the military or have military connections or backgrounds. Now Golkar is losing its power, but Habibie is still basing his power in Golkar. And again, the military is very key in there, because the military, of course, is the only entity that has bases in all the 27 provinces of Indonesia. Not all the parties are like that. Even the Muslim parties are split into several factions.

So we doubt very much that the military will relinquish its power and go back to the barracks in the near future. That's my opinion.

Mr. Herman Tan: I would like to add something to that view.

I think the students' view or the general public's view with regard to that issue is that as long as the military is still playing a very involved role in the government functions there, to have a fully democratic country in Indonesia is just impossible. Although it's called a democratic country, it is only a so-called “democratic” country. It is not democratic at all. This is why the students, at the preliminary pre-elections in November meetings there, were demonstrating and asking the government to basically abolish the dual function of the military in Indonesia. Basically, this is their concern.

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Ms. Jean Augustine: I have one last question. In terms of what you say in your recommendation about starting laws that separate the three branches—the executive, the legislative and the judiciary—how can Canada be involved in that process?

Mr. Jonas Ma: There are ties between Canada and Indonesia at the NGO level and also at the diplomatic level. I think the role of Canada is to provide those kinds of technical support, and also to reflect the views of the world on how this can play out in a country. We have seen a lot of progress in many countries in terms of human rights, in terms of democratization, and I think the Indonesian government can be shown the specifics of how things can be done. Perhaps there might be a process that will be very violent, something we do not foresee, but I think our role in Indonesia should be somewhat supportive, just providing that kind of technical support.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Martin, did you have another question?

Mr. Keith Martin: Yes, thank you very much. It's a short one.

On the IMF's recommendations to Indonesia, I really wonder what your opinions are, what you thought was good and what was not good. What compromises the economic situation in Indonesia, and what helps it? Can you comment on the IMF's recommendations?

Mr. Yusni Hilwan: It's a very difficult position for the IMF right now, as you can see. There are riots as we speak right now; Herman said there were riots on December 1. You can see the Indonesian currency is basically stable at 7,500 rupiahs. It's amazing. When Suharto was going to be toppled, it was close to 20,000 rupiahs for one U.S. dollar. Why is it so stable now? It's because the economy knows the IMF has started opening this $1-billion-a-month type of pocket or whatever. The economy has acknowledged this.

What would happen if the IMF said sorry and stopped? Again, the poorer people would still have to buy goods, and some of them are kind of important. Right now, it's very expensive for ordinary people to get medical stuff, for example—and Natali can testify to this. Basically, the poor are dying because of this, so you can see that it's very difficult. If the IMF stops completely, then for sure the poor are going to keep on dying much more because of that.

Mr. Keith Martin: To my knowledge, Mr. Habibie has not undertaken the significant structural changes that are required to diminish the power of the former president, Suharto, and his family, which is essential if your country is to get on its feet. Can you give us an indication of the extent to which Mr. Habibie has managed to wrest power from President Suharto and the economic stranglehold that he and his family have managed to place on the country?

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Mr. Yusni Hilwan: Basically if you ask the students, it's all a farce or a kind of a play, that type of thing. When foreign dignitaries come—Raymond Chan, Madeleine Albright, or whoever—Mr. Habibie says we will implement this, blah blah blah. For example, the Chinese identity cards have special kinds of digits that make them different from the rest of the ID cards of the non-Chinese. Habibie said the difference will be abolished, but we don't know when it's going to be abolished. Basically, as wee see it, he's just playing games to gain and prolong his power. He's sitting on or riding a tiger type of thing.

The democratic movement had hopes for these prominent leaders like Magawati Sukarnoputri, who is the daughter of the late President Sukarno; Gusdur, who is the chair of the biggest Muslim party; Abdurrahman Wahid; and Amien Rais, who is the leader of another prominent Muslim party. We had hoped the four of them could start doing something, but they all didn't feel they had enough masses or bases appearing or coming up.

Mr. Keith Martin: So Habibie's not doing the job.

Mr. Yusni Hilwan: Not really, so it's basically situations like that that make it very volatile.

Mr. Herman Tan: If I can just add a little bit to that, I think it's a very difficult scenario that the IMF is facing, too. We have heard a lot of stories today that if, on the one hand, the IMF stops the funding because its recommendations are not being followed by President Habibie, the human rights violations will continue to become worse. Whenever there is an economic crisis there will be unrest in society, and there will again be violence against certain ethnics in Indonesia.

On the other hand, I think Habibie was just trying to please some of the requirements or recommendations of the IMF. For example, you may notice that he had ordered some 2,000 troops out of East Timor. A lot of the time that was to just basically to try to satisfy things on the surface, but there is basically no action that has really taken place. I think the IMF has to continue to pressure the Government of Indonesia to make sure all of those things are being followed, as according to the recommendations, and to make sure the funding goes to the right needs in Indonesia, to the economy, instead of going to a certain particular elite group, which is what has happened in the past.

Mr. Keith Martin: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you.

Jonas, would you like to conclude?

Mr. Jonas Ma: Thank you, Chair.

Since news of the riots broke out in June, the Chinese-Canadian community, as well as many Canadians of other origins who are concerned about human rights, has increasingly been urging our government to take a more active role in ending the atrocities. Also, we have been asking the government to provide support and assistance to the victims of the violence during the May riots. In Toronto alone, we have collected over 10,000 petitioned signatures, and I know that in Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa, there are also a number of organizations and coalitions just like ours that are doing similar work. They are also anxiously looking to our government for leadership on this matter.

We appreciate the opportunity to speak to the subcommittee on the Indonesian situation today. However, there are many Canadians in other cities who are concerned and would like to also address the subcommittee. We recommend that the committee hold hearings in other cities, such as Vancouver, Montreal, and Calgary, in order to hear the concerns of these other Canadians.

In view of Indonesia's recent situation, which is very volatile, our coalition believes there are four concrete actions the government can take to help to re-establish stability in Indonesia immediately and in the future.

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First of all, we urge the government to help ensure that the Indonesian government acknowledges the report of the joint fact-finding team and implements its recommendations, especially in regard to the investigation and punishment of those responsible for the crimes.

We know that since early November the government has put the report on the shelf and has not done anything about it. We feel we have to monitor this situation. Should Indonesia fail to implement the recommendations, Canada should petition the UN Security Council to establish an international tribunal to charge Prabowo Subianto, Suharto, and other military members who are not only responsible for the mass rapes of May 1998 but also for committing war crimes, genocide, and other atrocities against East Timorese, Acehnese, the kidnapping and murder of students, and the 1965 slaughter of over one million people.

Also, Canada can help Indonesia to stay on course with democratization by installing laws that separate the three branches of the executive, legislature, and judiciary.

One concrete thing Canada can do is monitor elections in 1999. They'll probably be between May and June. We recommend that Canada send a parliamentary delegation to monitor those elections.

Also, we would ask Canada to use its persuasion and influence on Indonesia to remove any election regulations that would prevent opposition to the incumbent government from being elected.

We recommend Canada use its influences, and through its collaborations with Indonesia's National Human Rights Commission work toward eliminating or outlawing racism by enacting and enforcing hate crime laws.

These and other measures to be implemented aim to provide better protection to all its own citizens against terror, especially in view of what happened to Ita Haryono, the murder of 160 moderate Muslim teachers, and increased violence against Christians and Chinese Indonesians.

Lastly, we urge the government to create a special asylum program for the victims of violence during the May riots, particularly ethnic Chinese Indonesians who are targeted. I know we will have to speak to the minister of immigration and citizenship about this, and we also urge the minister to consider immediate alternatives to help those victims.

We heard of an enlarged refugee program. According to a Globe and Mail article on November 14, the immigration department is now accepting applications from groups that were persecuted in their own countries but did not stay within those countries and do not fit into the UN Convention refugee definition. So we hope ethnic groups that are persecuted in Indonesia and are still in Indonesia can be added to this list.

These are our recommendations. We thank you for the opportunity to speak to you.

The Chair: Thank you very much. I really appreciate you taking the time to come to Ottawa. It's been a great effort. I know you worked until the wee hours of the morning all the weekend. I heard from you at 11.30 p.m. on Saturday.

Those of you who attended the committee meeting last Thursday are aware that our secretary of state, Raymond Chan, is well versed on the issue and has a deep concern and has been involved in the Indonesian situation.

Your recommendations certainly will be considered by the committee. I'm sure you haven't heard the last from the Canadian government on the problems in Indonesia. I think the Canadian government has a special interest in Indonesia, both in its economic recovery and in its human rights violations.

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Mr. Keith Martin: I have a motion I would like to put forth. It is that the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development recommends to the Government of Canada that it petition the Security Council of the United Nations to charge former Indonesian President Suharto and members of his regime in The Hague for genocide and crimes against humanity.

The Chair: You will have to provide us with a copy of that.

Mr. Keith Martin: We will get it translated, but under the Standing Orders I can introduce a motion.

The Chair: Yes, I understand that. Are you comfortable if we open this up for discussion and stand it for our next meeting?

Mr. Keith Martin: Will we do that at the next available meeting and take a vote?

The Chair: Yes. Is that satisfactory?

Mr. Keith Martin: Yes. We'll get it from Madam Debien, en français.

Ms. Libby Davies: I just want to ask a question.

This is a subcommittee, and as far as the recommendations that have come from the delegation, which I think are very substantive but very pragmatic in terms of what Canada can do in a practical way to assist the situation, do these now go to the full committee? Do we have an idea when they might be debated? Is the delegation advised of that?

The Chair: Any motions that are voted on or passed here would go before the main committee.

Ms. Libby Davies: But do these recommendations from the delegation go back to the main committee?

The Chair: They're recommendations from the delegation. The main committee had a hearing on Indonesia on Thursday.

Ms. Libby Davies: Yes. I was there.

The Chair: They do not go back as official recommendations to the main committee—

Ms. Libby Davies: Unless we move them here. Is that it?

I would like to move that these recommendations go back to the full committee for discussion and further review to be forwarded to the government for implementation.

The Chair: Do you mean for the consideration of the main committee?

Ms. Libby Davies: Yes.

(Motion agreed to)

[Translation]

Mrs. Maud Debien: Madam Chair, will Mr. Martin's motion be part of the recommendations?

[English]

Mr. Keith Martin: No, we'll continue with— We will vote, because it's going to go right to the government.

[Translation]

Mrs. Maud Debien: I understand. That's fine.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.