CITI Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA CITOYENNETÉ ET DE L'IMMIGRATION

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, October 7, 1997

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[English]

The Clerk of the Committee: Order.

Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Clerk, I note that the first order of business is to entertain nominations for the position of committee chair.

I would propose that this committee consider the merits of conducting the election of the chair and vice-chairs by secret ballot. If it's the consensus of this committee to proceed by secret ballot, then it's my understanding that we must oblige. Perhaps we could debate the issue and talk about that opportunity.

The Clerk: The order of business is to elect a chair pursuant to Standing Order 106. I am not in a capacity to entertain any motion other than election of the chair. And I have already sensed that there is no consensus to proceed to secret ballots.

Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): I just want to know who you made the deal with who was going to switch and have secret ballots.

Mr. Grant McNally: There were no deals. To explain our point, this would go along with our idea of a democratic system of having a secret ballot.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: This is democratic too. There's nothing wrong with that.

Mr. Grant McNally: Sure, sure.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: It's pretty democratic.

Ms. Maria Minna (Beaches—East York, Lib.): Okay, let's get on with it. Let's not waste time on that.

The Clerk: Pursuant to Standing Order 106(1), I'm ready to receive motions to elect a chair. Mrs. Augustine.

Mrs. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): I'd like to put to the committee the name of Stan Dromisky for chair of this standing committee.

Mr. Grant McNally: I second that.

(Motion agreed to)

The Clerk: I invite Mr. Dromisky to take the chair.

The Chairman (Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay—Atikokan, Lib.)): Thank you very much, everyone.

I'm not going to give you a lengthy preamble or anything like that. I just want to say thanks for your support and I would like to point out to you that this is going to be a hell of a year. We have a great number of tasks to work on and plow through, and it's going to demand a consistent pattern of attendance and dedication to the task.

I'm sure that each and every representative from all the opposition parties, as well as the government side, will be accepting those tasks as quickly as possible and with great diligence.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): I would like to nominate Mr. John Reynolds for the position of the vice-chair.

The Chairman: We're going into our first item on the agenda, which is the election of vice-chairs, and we have a nomination.

Mr. Grant McNally: I second that.

The Chairman: We have a motion on the floor for nomination of vice-chairman. All in favour.

Some hon. members: No, no.

Ms. Maria Minna: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to propose the nomination of Raymonde Folco as the first vice-chair of the committee.

The Chairman: Okay, so you're going into the second motion.

Ms. Maria Minna: No, no.

The Chairman: We should deal with one motion at a time.

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Ms. Maria Minna: We'll vote it down.

The Chairman: One motion at a time. We have a motion on the floor for a representative from the opposition side of the House.

Would you repeat the motion please?

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Yes. I nominate Mr. John Reynolds for the opposition vice-chair.

The Chairman: Okay. All in favour.

Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Could we have some information? Is there a first vice-chair and a second, or is it simply two vice-chairs?

The Chairman: No, two vice-chairs. One vice-chair will come from the opposition and the other vice-chair will come from the side of the government. Okay? So since we have one motion on this side of the floor and no other motions.... All in favour? Are you in agreement with the motion?

Mr. Steve Mahoney: I'm not clear if there is in fact a first vice-chair and a second vice-chair or if there's any priority.

Ms. Maria Minna: Yes, there is usually.

Mr. Steve Mahoney: Well, I'm hearing yes and you're saying no. So could somebody tell me?

An hon. member: The Standing Orders.

[Translation]

Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): I'm aware of your parliamentary experience.

[English]

How is your French?

The Chairman: Not so good.

Mr. Réal Ménard: You need some practice with me.

The Chairman: I am, I am.

Mr. Réal Ménard: I will wait.

The Chairman: How's your English?

Mr. Réal Ménard: Oh, very good. Would you like to discuss with me?

[Translation]

Mr. Chairman, let me begin by congratulating you on your election.

You will recall that traditionally, the two vice-chairs are not equals. Each committee member should know that when the chair is unable to preside over the meeting, this duty falls to the first vice-chair. This has always been the case and this position is always held by a member from the government party. Could you tell me if the committee intends to continue with this tradition?

Members shouldn't be left with the impression that the two vice-chairs have the same duties. The first vice-chair is a member of the government party and intervenes in the absence of the chair. He is a government member, while the second vice-chair is a member of the opposition.

The Bloc Québécois has agreed to this format in all committees and, in accordance with the democratic will of the people, the second vice-chair will be a member of the Reform Party. I trust that we will continue to work this way.

[English]

The Chairman: You have all heard the explanation regarding first and second vice-chairmen. We now have a motion on the floor, which in essence, if it materializes and has been accepted, would be a second vice-chairman.

Mr. John Reynolds: Can I read the Standing Orders? It's on page 62:

Each standing or special committee shall elect a Chairman and two Vice-Chairmen, of whom two shall be Members of the government party and the third a Member in opposition to the government, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 116, at the commencement of every session and, if necessary, during the course of a session.

There is no first vice-chairman or second vice-chairman. They are both vice-chairmen with equal responsibilities.

The Chairman: I'm going to have to make a decision here. In all my past four years of experience on committees with the two vice-chairmen that we had, we never had this problem. We just rolled along and adjusted to whatever the demands might be or the situation might be and made decisions regarding the most effective way of solving the problem that arose.

All I'm saying right now is that we're going to have two vice-chairmen and I will not consider them to be first or second. They will be two vice-chairmen who will have to assume responsibility of taking over as the chair for whatever the reasons might be. If we take one from the opposition side, which we must according to our rules and regulations, that will be a vice-chairman, period. And then we must pick one from the government side.

We have a motion on the floor right now.

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Mr. Steve Mahoney: I have a point of order. It seems to me that while the interpretation Mr. Reynolds has just put on the Standing Orders may indeed be accurate, there is a tradition that I think Monsieur Ménard was pointing out, which is that the government vice-chair is elected first and the opposition vice-chair is elected second. If you change the tradition, it seems to me there may be an argument that I think Monsieur Ménard was quite rightly pointing out that would differentiate the positions.

So the position we would be put in would be to vote against Mr. Reynolds, which would not be the desire of the government side. It would be my request that Mr. Obhrai simply withdraw his motion, allow the government motion to go first, then put Mr. Reynolds on the table and we can all get out of here.

The Chairman: Operating from the chair, if there is an occasion when I am not going to be present to conduct a meeting or I have to leave the chair for any given reason, I think it's only common sense that I would turn to the vice-chairman of the government side, automatically. That's what I have done in the past and that's what I intend to do in the future. And if that cannot be, then I must turn to the other vice-chair, notify that person in advance and so forth.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Mr. Chairman, a suggestion has been made to Mr. Obhrai. Has Mr. Obhrai refused this suggestion that we in fact—

An hon. member: It doesn't make sense.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: We've talked about tradition. Mr. Ménard has suggested that there is a tradition here, and people on the government side have talked about this as well. It doesn't remove anything from anyone. Let's simply go with the tradition and then everything will be solved.

Ms. Maria Minna: Mr. Chairman, if I may, I hate wasting valuable time. I have no problem with going ahead as we have. Let's vote on the motion, elect the vice-chair, get on with electing the government side vice-chair, and the chair obviously will choose who chairs for him every time he has to miss. Let's get on with this so we don't spend the whole afternoon in here.

The Chairman: Let's go back. We have a motion on the floor for John Reynolds, vice-chairman from the opposition. All in favour?

(Motion agreed to)

The Chairman: Congratulations, John.

Ms. Maria Minna: I would like to nominate Raymonde Folco as vice-chair of this committee.

Mr. John Reynolds: I'll second the motion.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chairman: Congratulations to the two vice-chairmen of the immigration and citizenship committee.

I'm hoping that no one has any other business to bring forth before the committee. We'll be going ahead with our plans and you'll all be notified as soon as possible of the upcoming meetings. We will always try to notify you well in advance with proper agendas and documentation wherever possible so that you have time to study and prepare yourselves for whatever deliberations are going to take place.

If there are no items to be presented....

[Translation]

Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Would it be possible for new members to receive a background document describing the types of discussions that have taken place here recently or the issues that are likely to crop up again?

Mr. Réal Ménard: More than that, you need a briefing book.

Mr. Jacques Saada: The format is not important. I wouldn't want to be in the dark when it comes to the committee's previous work.

Mr. Réal Ménard: That's not likely to happen.

Mr. Jacques Saada: I hope not.

Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Chairman, mention was made of tradition. As everyone knows, I wouldn't want to be taken for someone who holds to tradition, but it is customary for members to receive a briefing book dealing in particular with the Immigration Act and other issues that will be raised here. This legislation is scheduled to be reviewed and I would ask our clerk to include immediately in the package briefing notes on war criminals, as this issue will most certainly be raised.

Who is the parliamentary secretary? Is it you?

Ms Maria Minna: Yes.

Mr. Réal Ménard: Fine.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Ms. Maria Minna: Mr. Chairman, I think that once the materials are distributed to the members it would possibly be helpful to also have maybe a briefing with the officials so that people can ask for points of clarification, which might help them get started. I think that would be quite advisable. I have no problem with that.

The Chairman: Very good. Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.