SRID Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

SOUS-COMITÉ DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT INTERNATIONAL DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, March 1, 2000

• 1536

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.): I call to order this meeting of the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Don't let my last name deceive you. Unfortunately I'm not as gifted as other members at this table, so I will have to use the translation.

Welcome to our witnesses today. We've had several round tables with Canadian officials and NGO groups, and the subcommittee has decided to look at the role of civil society in achieving human security in Africa.

A number of our witnesses suggested it would be useful to look at the role of civil society in addressing the challenges in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which, as we know, is suffering through a very complex conflict involving rebel groups in a number of neighbouring states. We would be very interested in your views on this.

If members decide to pursue this issue, our objective will be to hold further hearings, visit the region, and eventually produce a report with recommendations for Canadian government policy.

Three weeks from today we will be hearing from departmental officials on the situation in the Congo. We are pleased that we will be able to take your opinions and suggestions into account when we meet with them.

For the information of members, the Department of Foreign Affairs is holding its annual human rights consultation next week in preparation for the United Nations Human Rights Commission meetings in Geneva.

Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): It starts this week and finishes on Monday.

The Chair: As in the past, two weeks from today we'll be hearing from Adèle Dion of the department, who will brief us on the consultations and Canadian priorities for Geneva.

We have with us today, representing the Union for Democracy and Social Progress, Marc Kapenda. From the Centre de Recherche sur la démocratie pour le dévelopement en Afrique, we have Dr. Jean-Christophe Kasende; and from Table de concertation, Denis Tougas.

We have a document from Mr. Tougas in French only. I understand we'll be getting the English next week, so we'll pass this out. For those of you who are as linguistically challenged as I am, you'll be getting the document in English next week.

May I invite one of you to decide who will begin the presentation?

Monsieur Tougas.

• 1540

Mr. Marc Kapenda (Representative, Union for Democracy and Social Progress): I will be making the presentation first, and it will be in French, if you don't mind.

The Chair: That's fine.

[Translation]

Mr. Marc Kapenda: Ladies and gentlemen, members of the Sub- Committee on Human Rights and International Development of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, on behalf of the UDSP, we must first and foremost do our pleasant duty, which is to thank, through your sub-committee, the Canadian Parliament for the first opportunity it has given this Canadian group of Congolese origin, and more particularly the UDSP, to testify on the situation in Congo. We hope that this first meeting will mark the beginning of further consultations.

UDSP Canada is still a civilian organization staffed by volunteers, most of whom are former members of the Union for Democracy and Social Progress, the UDSP, which is the oldest national democratic opposition party in Congo, and which was created in 1982 by a group of parliamentarians determined to brave their fears of the terrifying dictatorship of Mobutu, then President of Zaire, as Congo was formerly called.

UDSP Canada is an NGO whose mandate is to lobby Canada for support in Congo's democratization and development and to foster links between various Canadian and Congolese institutions.

Since we are an NGO, it is no secret that we support the Union for Democracy and Social Progress. In our view, given the wide variety of violent and seductive tactics exercised by the official Congolese regimes, under Mobutu in the past and under Kabila today, the UDSP is the only national domestic Congolese opposition party, which, at the price of untold sacrifices, defends the concept of democracy in a philosophy of non-violence and non-exclusion, and whose members involve themselves in politics by making critical statements and by denouncing the misdeeds of the authorities.

Apart from our work with the UDSP, we also cooperate with human rights NGOs and other organizations dedicated to defending democratic ideals within Zaire. Indeed, the UDSP's resistance and the fact that a handful of courageous human rights organizations are struggling under a dictatorship as ruthless as Kabila's is today, underscore the determination of the Congolese to reject any form of dictatorship, even at the cost of their lives.

A symbol of this determination is a man who has particularly distinguished himself: Étienne Tshisekedi, who was arrested, tortured and subjected to all kinds of perversions many times over, but who never gave up. His suffering did not lessen his belief in non-violence and his determination to help create a modern and economically sound State in the heart of central Africa.

At the end of this presentation, allow me to say that we would need much more than ten minutes to tell you about the enormity of the human rights violations taking place in Congo. We will have to restrict ourselves to explaining how these violations came about. As for the details of the human rights violations, we will table a copy of Amnesty International's report as well as several reports by Human Rights Watch. Both organizations have observers in the field.

The Congolese had the opportunity to denounce Mobutu's dictatorship during the 1991-1992 Conférence nationale souveraine, at which there were over 2,800 delegates from political parties, NGOs, communities and government institutions, as well as several respected intellectuals from Zaire.

After two years of work, this forum, which was made possible under difficult circumstances thanks to the mobilization and vigilance of many people, produced the following important results: a draft constitution for a federal and democratic Congo, to be put to a popular referendum; an interim constitution; the organization of the State based on a review of powers and whose institutions—the presidency of the Republic or the interim government, the Haut Conseil de la République, the interim parliament, the courts and tribunals—were maintained to help the country through the transition period and to apply the decisions taken by the CNS, the Conférence national souveraine.

• 1545

To be especially careful, the CNS wanted the prime minister who was elected by the national forum to be accountable to the forum so that he could not be dismissed by the President of the Republic. But what happened is that, only two months after he was elected Prime Minister by the Conférence national souveraine, Étienne Tshisekedi was denied access to his office and to every other ministry within his government by Mobutu's soldiers. Mobutu, in violation of the Constitution Act, began appointing one prime minister after another, none of whom were supported by the public, until he escaped from the country and ultimately died in 1997.

When Mr. Kabila took power by leading a triumphant rebellion in 1997, Zaire had already laid the groundwork for democracy and development. To ignore that route, which was the work of the CNS, was for most Congolese tantamount to a monopoly of power, to a dictatorship.

Indeed, it did not take long for the dictatorship to make itself felt. Mr. Kabila prohibited political parties, which since 1990 had worked relatively well under Mobutu. Leaders and members of political parties, human rights organizations and media organizations were frequently jailed for their views. Young military officers, who had been trained abroad and who had rallied to Kabila's new army, were secretly executed, without trial or conviction.

Under Mobutu, there were committees such as the Comité de la jeunesse du Mouvement Populaire de la Révolution; similarly, Kabila created local people power committees in urban neighbourhoods throughout the country and abroad. Under the acronym CPP or other names, they had the support of embassies and of Congo to promote and export Kabila's nationalist ideology and to terrorize those Congolese who did not support the view of the government.

Kabila's regime does not respect the right of citizens, and anyone expressing contrary views is liable to be arrested. If you consider that the strength of political parties and other groups lies in the electoral process of a democratic regime, in which parties appoint their candidates to positions of public trust, it is easy to understand that, in the absence of a democratic system, various groups will use other means to oppose the powers that be.

The uprising in the eastern part of the country is rooted in this political crisis. The sons and daughters of Congo who have been excluded from the political process have joined the armed forces of neighbouring countries, namely Rwanda and Uganda.

The situation has become completely confused, because the governments of Rwanda and Uganda have taken advantage of the rebel movement in Congo to hunt down Hutu extremists, who triggered the Tutsi genocide in 1994. These rebels, in turn, have carried out their own genocidal acts on Congolese nationals living in occupied territories, just because they associate with the Hutus. Entire villages have been pillaged and burnt to the ground. Countless civilians have been executed or buried alive in acts of vengeance, and the region's mining resources have been exploited to the benefit of Rwanda and Uganda.

Under these conditions, many civilians, fearing the violence perpetrated by the Ugandan and Rwandan military forces, have hidden in the forest to wait in vain for their nightmare to end. UDSP Canada objects to a useless war which has claimed many innocent civilian victims in the eastern part of the country and which has paralyzed government.

We believe that the absence of a legitimate and responsible government in Congo, and the lack of responsibility demonstrated by the Rwandan and Ugandan governments, who take advantage of the support they give the Congolese rebels to pillage the resources of Congo and who are trying to occupy part of Congo's territory, are at the root of the current political crisis and armed conflict.

• 1550

We are pleased that the United Nations Security Council has started to pay attention to this problem. We hope that more outside forces will be sent on-site to uphold the Lusaka agreements, to persuade the Congolese to sit at a national roundtable to organize the transition period and to monitor the democratization process until free and transparent elections can be held. Furthermore, under a responsible government whose legitimacy would be based on the outcome of the national roundtable, all foreign military personnel would be asked to leave Congo so that Congo may once more be the master in its own house.

We believe that Canada, with its political culture and image on the world stage, can play a direct and influential role in the process of restoring peace and organizing and implementing a modern State. Supporting the quest for democracy, the process of Congolese renewal, rather than helping the current xenophobic nationalist regime, to ultimately create a viable Congo, would be an important contribution to international development.

Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you. I'd like to welcome Lucien Naki as well. He has just arrived. He's the chair and chief for outside contacts for the Independent Commission for the Preparation for Inter-Congolese Dialogue.

Mr. Lucien Naki (Chair and Chief for outside contacts for the Independent Commission for the Preparation for Inter-Congolese Dialogue, Commission politique du CSDCK): Thank you very much.

The Chair: Denis Tougas, would you like to present now?

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas (Spokesperson, Entraide missionnaire; Table de concertation sur les droits humains au Congo-Kinshasa): If I may, I would like to let the witnesses from Congo speak first, since we are talking about their country.

The Chair: All right.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Madam Chair, it might be better to stay with the established order. At the end, as we are a platform organization, I would like to invite the President of the Commission, Mr. Théophile Zamba, to join me at this table. The Commission is a platform for several organizations. I would therefore like us to follow the established order.

[English]

The Chair: Dr. Kasende, I believe the order you're in on the agenda is how you would like to proceed?

A witness: Yes, indeed.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende (President of the Board of Directors, Centre de recherche sur la démocratie pour le développement en Afrique): I don't know if my arguments will carry more weight than those of the others. We are a research centre. The other groups have different mandates. We contact them for information, which we then analyze scientifically. Therefore, it is only right that they should go first.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Tougas.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas: In that case, if you don't mind, I will go ahead.

Thank you for inviting the Table de concertation sur les droits humains au Congo-Kinshasa before the committee. Our organization was founded in 1988, and since 1992 has edited a small monthly paper in both languages. The paper is also translated into German, and distributed in Germany. I say this to highlight the fact that, in Canada, there are important and interesting resources on the situation in Congo.

I strongly encourage members of Parliament to take an interest in the Congolese situation for several reasons. The human rights issue and the current war must speak to us as fellow human beings. Congo is also a member of the Francophonie. It is the second- largest member country of the Francophonie, of which Canada is also a member. As well, and I will come back to this further on in my presentation, Canadian interests, particularly mining interests, are increasingly present in Congo. They are also elsewhere in Africa, but particularly so in Congo.

I did not really know what to say in this presentation, since I don't know how interested you are or how familiar you are with the situation, but I image you are fairly well informed. That is why I won't go into detail, since I feel you are fairly familiar with the situation. I will address three issues: the humanitarian issue, human rights and the particular issue of Canadian and foreign mining interests in Africa, and more specifically in Congo.

Regarding the humanitarian issue, it seemed important for me to address it first, since we must clearly understand the current context before speaking of human rights within a civil society.

• 1555

Let me give you a single figure, which was released by the United Nations last December: in 1999, we received only 20% of the amount for international aid requested by UN agencies. This illustrates the failure of the international community to respond to this situation.

Here are some figures that describe the conditions: there are currently approximately 1,000,000 displaced people. Within Congo, there are over 300,000 refuges. Malnutrition now affects 17% of the population, and 4% is suffering severe food shortages. Those people could have long-term health problems as a result. Four percent means 2,150,000 people.

Diseases once thought to have disappeared have resurfaced in Congo, and the country has become an important observation centre, if I can call it that, for world health. The diseases we are seeing are polio, Marburg's disease, which is a close relative of Ebola, and sleeping sickness, which we thought had completely disappeared from Africa. Today, Congo has become a powder keg of diseases which may explode across the world, and especially across neighbouring countries.

Last week, some UN agencies which were consulted predicted that severe famine was imminent in Kinshasa itself. Five million people live in Kinshasa.

Therefore, before addressing human rights, I thought it was important to put the humanitarian issue into context, since Canada has always been open to and particularly interested in humanitarian issues.

I will merely make a few general observations on human rights. It has been noted—and as did the preceding speaker, I got several figures from Amnesty International's most recent report—that many cases of human rights violations are due to the state of war. Others are carried out by both sides in the name of war. Then there is one aspect which is specific to Congo and to other countries in the region: the war is being prolonged because people are fighting over the area's natural resources.

I will quickly repeat what the previous speaker said—except for one thing: I want to denounce the invasion and occupation of a territory by foreign powers. This fact has not been highlighted yet; Canada hasn't underscored it yet. The last Security Council remarked upon it, but not forcefully. I feel it is important to speak out about it.

The war-related violations are the same as those being perpetrated elsewhere in Africa where such wars are being waged: displacements, combat and pillaging. Then there are many kinds of violations carried out in the name of war: arbitrary arrest of reporters and members of political parties and civilians—particularly in areas controlled by President Kabila's government—varying amounts of hate propaganda, the upholding of a military regime and the military tribunal which still tries civilians. Last month, 19 people were executed by order of the military tribunal.

In the East, there are huge massacres of civilians, who often have nothing to do with the uprising or the resistance movement. These have been denounced in many quarters. Villages are pillaged, and religious and civilian leaders arrested.

Now for my final point. In Congo, the race is on to capture mineral-rich land. Gold, diamonds, copper, cobalt and rare metals like cadmium, niobium, tantalum and others are coveted.

The same thing is also happening in other countries, such as Angola, Congo-Brazzaville and Sierra Leone. This should encourage us to reflect upon the issue in depth, since it affects all of Africa, and especially those countries interested in harvesting mineral resources.

• 1600

A little earlier, I gave the clerk a memorandum which was the outcome of a study done by a research group from the Université du Québec à Montréal. The research was requested and sponsored by the following civilian organizations: the Table de concertation sur les droits humains au Congo de Montréal; the group Inter Pares, of Ottawa; the Catholic Organization for Development and Peace, of Toronto and Montreal; Mining Watch, of Ottawa; and the InterChurch Coalition of Africa, of Toronto. All these groups are very sensitive to manipulations and operations related to mining investment in Africa.

This is what's happening: despite the conflicts in Congo, Sierra Leone and Congo-Brazzaville, foreign investment has not decreased; on the contrary, it has increased and is surging ahead. In the schedule to the memorandum, you will find a list of Canadian mining companies which are still operating and even planning on expanding in Congo.

In these war-torn areas, mining companies obviously want to protect their investments. In order to achieve this, when the State is not up to the task, private security firms are more and more often hired. There are some in Canada, some in the United States and some in South Africa. They are all working in these war-torn areas.

This immediately raises human rights issues, since the security people are accountable only to their employers. It also raises long-term issues for the development of the countries in question, since many of these companies—some of them are listed in the memorandum—receive mining concessions in lieu of payment.

Canada should be very wary about this sort of thing, which happens throughout the world. There is no international organization looking into the matter, and the only instrument addressing the issue is the International Convention Against the Recruitment of Mercenaries, which Canada has not yet ratified and which it may never endorse.

I will stop here, since the issue will probably arise during questions. If so, I can if you want highlight certain points contained in the memorandum, the final draft of which will be sent to you in both official languages next week.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you. There will be many questions.

Mr. Naki, did you want to present now?

[Translation]

Mr. Lucien Naki: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and honourable members of Parliament. On behalf of the Commission indépendante pour le dialogue intercongolais, I would like to sincerely thank you for giving us the opportunity to briefly speak to you about what is happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo, as well as what has been achieved so far in terms of finding a peaceful solution to the war which began in August 1998.

This war, which started on August 2nd, 1998, has many facets: an invasion led by a coalition formed by the neighbouring countries of Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi; rebel movements which existed before Kabila came to power and which use the Democratic Republic of Congo as a base from which to launch attacks against neighbouring countries, including Angola, Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda and Sudan; armed rebellions by four groups against the Kabila government.

These four groups include the DRC-Goma, led by Dr. Émile Ilunga, a former ally of the current head of government, Mr. Laurent Désiré Kabila, at a time when he was leading his own uprising against former dictator Joseph Désiré Mobutu. Just after the war, in May 1997, Dr. Ilunga and his organization were shunted aside by Mr. Kabila's ruling AFDL.

• 1605

The second group is the DRC-Kisangani, led by professor Wamba Dia Wamba, also a former ally of Mr. Kabila in his war against Mobutu. He apparently left after the mysterious assassination of André Ngandu Kissasse for having denounced the massacre...

[English]

The Chair: May I interrupt for a moment? Would it help if he spoke more slowly?

Do you have a copy of your text? The interpreter is having a few problems.

Mr. Lucien Naki: I'm sorry, we don't have a copy in English.

The Chair: No, in French.

Mr. Lucien Naki: We are going to forward a copy—

The Chair: Do you have a copy in French for our translator?

Mr. Lucien Naki: Yes, we have one.

The Chair: Could you give it to our translator? It would assist him in the translation. Thank you.

Mr. Lucien Naki: They gave us only 10 minutes, according to the...

A voice: And you want to say everything.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Yes, please, because it is very important.

The Chair: You'll have a chance when we ask you questions as well.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Okay. Thank you.

The Chair: You see, this is Parliament, and when it comes to question time, you can act as we do in the House of Commons. If you feel that any of the questions are silly, then you just go ahead and give any answer you want that is more pertinent to what your message is.

A voice: Is that what happens?

The Chair: I guess so. That's what I'm told.

Thank you. You can continue.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Thank you indeed.

[Translation]

As I was saying, there is the DRC-Kisangani, led by professor Wamba Dia Wamba, also a former ally of the head of government when he was fighting Mobutu. He apparently left the organization after the mysterious assassination of André Ngandu Kissasse for having denounced the massacre of refugees and the overwhelming number of Rwandan soldiers within the rebel movement.

The third group is the MLC, led by Mbemba, a man who was close insider of the former regime ousted by Mr. Kabila.

The fourth group are the Mai-Mai, whose members are from the Kivu people. They are fighting to take back their land, which is currently occupied by Rwandan nationals.

The fifth and newest rebel group, whose aims are still unclear, involve two ethnic groups in the southern Ugandan-occupied province and their allies within DRC-Kisangani. In this case, it seems that the Ugandans are manipulating the situation in order to create a social base in the area under their control.

Apart from the five rebel movements and the invading countries supporting the rebel groups for their own ends, there is the government of Kabila and his allies, who have to beat back their own rebel movements which want to separate from the DRC. There are also unarmed political parties and civilian society leaders who are denied the right to carry out their activities. These leaders are mistreated, jailed, deported, forced into exile or silenced by the government. I want to highlight that fact, Madam Chair.

In the middle of this hell, people are caught between armed groups, and they are suffering, they are being forcibly displaced, they are suffering from thirst, hunger, anguish and death. Men, women and especially children are being hacked to pieces; women are humiliated, raped, massacred or buried alive.

• 1610

For us Canadians of Congolese descent, these men and women are our relatives, our sisters and friends. The destruction of the DRC is taking away something we value and are particularly attached to. That is why we want to find solutions that will lead to a lasting peace.

Since the start of the war, when there were many initiatives in Africa and elsewhere throughout the world to promote a cease fire between the warring factions, several high-profile people and Congolese organizations have been calling for a peaceful solution.

In the DRC, civil society organizations launched a national campaign for peace. It began its consultations in Kinshasa and spread to every corner of the country, then to Europe, to Belgium, Switzerland and finally to Canada, where a meeting was held bringing together all the organizations of the diaspora, as well as the Congolese political parties.

In Canada, the collectif de solidarité pour la démocratie au Congo-Kinshasa, based in Montreal, the ADSFHO, the African Human Rights Association, whose leadership is in exile, and the RNS, which is based in the United States, were all represented on the committee for a lasting peace in the DRC. Other Congolese groups based in Canada also joined the committee. In addition to the basic principles accepted by observers and political analysts, the committee for a lasting peace in the DRC believes that a permanent solution beyond an illusory cease-fire will only be possible if all political actors, within and without Congo, who are not involved in the fighting, take part in the current and future negotiations. These Congolese representatives enjoy real popular support and their absence from the negotiations justifies the intransigence of the warring factions whose only legitimacy is to impose their will through force.

At the Montreal conference held in January 1999, which was supported by the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development, the Congolese organizations of the DRC in Canada, the United States and Europe, as well as the political parties present called for an international conference on Congo to be held under the auspices of the Organization of African Unity and the United Nations. This special conference was to involve all these groups, including the Congolese government and the rebel groups, in order to find a political solution leading to peace and to a safe transition to democracy. The result of the Montreal conference was the concept of a forum for inter-Congolese dialogue.

In the follow-up meetings to the Montreal conference, the independent commission worked to disseminate its conclusions, and in particular to gain acceptance for the principle of inter- Congolese dialogue.

With the signing of the Lusaka agreements, the wishes expressed at the Montreal conference became reality. The commission then moved on to the next phase, which was to support Congolese organizations in working towards a successful inter-Congolese dialogue.

In the course of its preparatory work, the independent commission noted several factors. I will mention a few of them. The domestic civil society organizations that received help from international institutions were better equipped, technically, to provide organization quickly, and to play their role as grassroots representatives wherever and whenever required.

The unarmed political parties, which are being asked to play a bigger role in the peace building and democratic processes, received little international financial or technical help, and this greatly hampered their ability to organize and their effectiveness.

Organizations from the outside, although they play an important educational and lobbying role, are supported only with a number of reservations and conditions. They are often excluded from developments involving their country of origin, which prevents them from contributing effectively to the process of seeking solutions and adds to their frustrations.

• 1615

A diaspora that is well developed and well supported is necessary liaison for successful intervention. That is what we saw in the 1980s and 70s with the Greek and Polish diasporas. Canada led the way through its efforts to train the civilian police force in Haiti, when it assisted and supported Canadians of Haitian origin in organizing a police force in their country of origin. This is a clear example of one possible type of support for diaspora organizations.

Moreover, with a view to the reconstruction of a peaceful, free and democratic Congo, we need to call on Canadians of Congolese origin sitting on gold mines—Mr. Denis Tougas talked about this earlier—these companies with diverse equipment and expertise. Well supported in the present process, they could act as informed facilitators in fruitful exchanges between Canada and the Congo.

At the present stage in the peace process in the DRC, the Independent Commission for Inter-Congolese Dialogue is grateful to the Canadian government, as well as to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, for their financial commitment in support of inter-Congolese dialogue, the issue of child soldiers and peacekeeping operations.

The Commission would ask you, members of Parliament here today, to support it in its efforts to be involved in the inter- Congolese dialogue process and to transmit its requests to the Canadian government to receive part of the funding allocated to the inter-Congolese dialogue process.

Working independently to complement other efforts under way, the Commission believes that it can continue to play the preparatory role described in the information on its activities and hopes to benefit from your commitment and your needed opinions and expertise in order to reach its objectives.

This support could come through a Canada-Africa parliamentary group or a special parliamentary committee to support the DRC, which you might consider setting up under the parliamentary group.

[English]

I would like to present my congratulations to Ms. Jean Augustine for her nomination for chair of the Canada-Africa Friendship Group.

[Translation]

Madame Chair, members of the Committee, on behalf of the Independent Commission for Inter-Congolese Dialogue, I would like to thank you once again for having given us this opportunity.

My friend, Théophile Zamba, joins me in telling you that the Congolese people, who are plunged in suffering and poverty, need your help. This meeting today is a historic event. You have an opportunity to save the lives of more than 40 million people and to help us avoid this war that is called the Second World War in Africa. Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you.

Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Madam Chair, I have a point of privilege.

I want to say that my colleagues around the table are also involved in the Canada-Africa group—Svend Robinson, Maud Debien, and Keith Martin.

I'm sure you are a member, as well as Aileen.

• 1620

The Chair: Are you going to be reading this?

Dr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: It is not to be read. I'm waiting for my notes.

The Chair: Should we begin some of the questioning, or would you prefer to wait?

Dr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Yes. I'm sorry.

The Chair: I'm wondering if that's essential. Half of us don't read French very well, so I'm not sure that's necessary.

Dr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: I will read.

The Chair: Pardon.

Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca): If the gentleman gives his presentation slowly, that would be fine.

An hon. member: Mr. Clerk, could we have a copy of his presentation?

The Chair: You have it in French. They will translate it and get copies to us by next week.

Perhaps you could start your presentation, and the interpreter can assist those of us who are challenged.

Dr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: I am waiting for my notes.

The Chair: Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Thank you, Madame Chair.

On behalf of the Research Centre on Democracy for African Development, the CERDDAF, I would like to thank the organizers of this meeting.

Before getting into the heart of my subject, I would like to briefly describe the Research Centre on Democracy for African Development. It is a research institution created by a group of free intellectuals in Africa, Canada and Europe, who decided to bring together their skills in order to engage Africa in taking active steps to fight for its development through democracy.

In my presentation, I am picking up on the Centre's motto: bringing together the skills and changing knowledge, working as a team to engage Africa in taking active steps to fight for its development through democracy.

Proof of this international status of the CERDDAF is the fact that the member designated by its general assembly to respond to the invitation addressed to the Centre by the organizers of the national consultation on the DRC is Ms. Annick Lambert, a Canadian citizen of French origin and professor at the University of Quebec in Hull.

Therefore, except for the possibility of analytical errors that may have or could be committed in good faith and thus attributable to data that were not yet verified or were difficult to verify, we can assert, ladies and gentlemen, that our efforts are based on objectivity, which must remain our fundamental motivation and their primary characteristic.

The CERDDAF's work regarding the human rights situation has...

[English]

The Chair: You're speaking a little too fast for the interpreter. You will have to speak more slowly.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Very well, I will speak more slowly.

[English]

The Chair: Do you have a copy of the text? I'm sorry, there's no copy.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: The CERDDAF's work on the human rights situation in the DRC is comprehensive in scope. It focuses on the relationship between the fundamental motivations of the conquest for power by human beings in general and how people behave in managing the people and property in the conquered space.

On the basis of this fundamental principal, our Centre has structured this presentation in two parts. The first looks at how the territory is managed under the control of the new regime in Congo-Kinshasa, and the second analyses the data for the management of the territorial space occupied by the Armed Forces of the Rwanda-Uganda-Burundi coalition and their allies in the DRC.

• 1625

One might contend that the expressions chosen to designate the warring factions reflects a desire not to offend or an argumentative strategy, though we are being careful not to use the expression "aggressor countries" in talking about the three countries that have, in fact, been recognized as aggressors of the DRC by the United Nations Security Council, because we want to maintain the neutral tone that should characterize the CERDDAF. In presenting our arguments, however, logic and common sense will win out in the end. We will therefore eventually reach agreement on all these designations.

To designate the Congolese who have colluded with the foreign forces working in coalition against their country, we use the term "allies" in relation to the occupation forces present in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

The question of concern to the organizers of this meeting and to all those who are present here today is as follows: are human rights being respected in the Democratic Republic of Congo? Well, the witnesses who have preceded me gave the answers. And our answer is just as objective. The CERDDAF asserts that human rights are not being respected in the Congo as a whole. We will try to demonstrate that in our comments. But it should be pointed out, as others have already done, that compared with what is happening in the occupied territories, the violations in the territory controlled by the government are almost insignificant.

How, where and in what circumstances are these rights being violated? To answer all these questions, we will first look at the management of the territory controlled by the new DRC regime. We will then examine how the territory occupied by the forces opposed to the Kinshasa authorities is being managed. Then we will give the CERDDAF's point of view.

Our presentation will end on a more general note, as a conclusion, and a few recommendations for the Canadian government to help it decide how to promote peace in the DRC, but also in the whole Great Lakes Region of Africa.

Let us begin with management of the territory under the new regimes. In its research...

[English]

The Chair: Do you realize you only have a total of about 10 minutes? You're talking about your agenda here, and I'm wondering if you can complete that in 10 minutes. You have about four more minutes. We will have questions.

Dr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Yes, I see now.

The Chair: Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Management by the government is divided into two periods. First there was the new regime from May 1997 to 1998. On the political level, opposition criticism against the new regime during that period focussed on two points, the suspension of activities of political parties and the rejection of any resolutions by the national conference.

On the legal and humanitarian level, international opinion at that time denounced the banishment of opposition leader Étienne Tshisekedi to his village. There was also talk of setting up a military court as the only court in the country.

On the economic front, the Kinshasa government was criticized for the reversal of position that was felt by the mining companies, that is, the cancellation of mining contracts.

Here is how the CERDDAF analyzed the situation. Examining them as they were presented and from the various points of view considered, all these actions for which the Democratic Republic of the Congo was criticized at first glance seemed to CERDDAF analysts to be human rights violations. However, in order to grasp their full significance as social, historical and economic actions that can be traced to analyzable causes, the Centre placed them in their historical context.

In analyzing the facts related to the suspensions of political parties' activities, it became clear that this decision, which had a limited effect, was logically in keeping with the timetable established by the new authorities, which had just taken power in Kinshasa in 1997. The two-year period was deemed reasonable.

• 1630

It might therefore be tempting to justify other measures, such as the rejection of the national conference's resolutions, the arrest of Étienne Tshisekedi and his banishment to the countryside, by the fact that the timetable established by the government had received unanimous approval, but this would be too simplistic. The CERDDAF researched this issue further, and established that the new regime's political openness toward the unarmed opposition present in Kinshasa was not on the agenda of the coalition that had helped it take power in Kinshasa at that time.

As the Belgian journalist Collette Braeckman clearly stated in Le Soir when she arrived, it was Kabila's Tutsi advisers who had acted as a screen between him and the internal forces, including Tshisekedi, who was already demanding that the foreign troops leave. Moreover, Tshisekedi himself, in a message that we have here, acknowledged that some of the people in the president's entourage prevented him from meeting with Kabila, his brother.

As for the military tribunal, we analyzed the situation at the CERDDAF. We condemned it, but we believe that this authority intervened in a time of war for security reasons. We deplore that, just as we are all disturbed by the executions that have multiplied in some countries.

As for reviewing contracts that were signed during the war, which was also a grievance, according to information in our possession...

[English]

The Chair: Dr. Kasende, could I suggest that you summarize the main points of the rest of it and go directly to the recommendations? There are six people here who have questions, and we won't have time to get to them. So could you please do that? We will have the translation, and we will be able to read your entire brief after it's distributed to all the members.

Dr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: I want to give you my conclusion now.

The Chair: Okay. That would be good.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Here are the conclusion and recommendations made by the CERDDAF to the Canadian government.

It is clear that the two groups which are fighting each other, the Kinshasa government and the aggressor countries, have in common a desire to hold on to their territories but, to all appearances, do not have the same underlying objectives which determine how they manage the territories under their authority. It is also clear that the objectives of a State that is defending itself against an attack from outside for management of territories under its control are different from the objectives of aggressors who occupy the territory of a neighbouring country as a means of ensuring the security of their own country.

As others have already pointed out, there are human rights violations in the occupied countries and in the occupied parts of countries. We have here a book containing images of people being tortured, children being killed, women being raped. This is a reminder. We can remove this reminder, for example at the government level, we can deprive the government of its justification for resorting to war measures.

Therefore, in order to prevent the government from using this historical pretext and resorting to methods from another age, the society of nations, born of the painful experience of the 1940-1945 war, must assert itself as the supreme legal authority for dispensing justice to the Congolese people, who are the victim of a war that has been imported into its territory by Rwanda, Uganda and Burundi.

This will not be possible until democracy becomes the sole manner of gaining power in these countries, who are wrong to seek the causes of their insecurity beyond their borders. The origins of the Rwandan genocides are in Rwanda, not in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. One must go to Rwanda in order to settle the Rwandan conflict, not to the Congo.

We have two recommendations for the Canadian government. Canada should bring all its influence to bear on the international community so that the armies of Rwanda, Uganda and Burundi will liberate the territories of the Democratic Republic of the Congo that they have been occupying in defiance of international law. It would also be desirable for Canada, a nation which holds democratic values dear, to mobilize the international community with a view to bringing democracy to the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the countries of the Great Lakes subregion of Africa.

• 1635

Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you.

Are there any questions? Dr. Martin.

[Translation]

Mr. Keith Martin: Thank you very much, Madame Chair.

[English]

Thank you very much to all of you for coming here today on this serious issue. Nothing, I think, would give any of us more pleasure than to see peace come to your country, and I truly mean that.

I have three questions. One is whether perhaps you could give us a brief overview—any of you—of the regional involvement of the players, the complexity of the conflict inside. It's very difficult for us to get a handle on that, given the involvement of both internal and external actors in the conflict. Could you give us a quick brief on that?

Secondly, I need some hard, doable targets that we can pursue beyond the Lusaka accords, as admirable as those accords are. Could you tell us perhaps three things we can actually sink our teeth into and we can pursue here and also internationally, perhaps with the UN, that would enable the international community to focus their efforts on a couple of targets? I'd like to know what those are.

Lastly, would any of you be kind enough to table in this committee a list of Canadian companies that are active in the Congo and that are engaging in actions that are somehow contributing to the conflict?

Thank you.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas: There is quite considerable regional involvement. I am not sure where you would like us to start. Currently, on the ground, the following troops are engaged: on the rebel side, there are Uganda, Rwanda and, to a certain extent, Burundi. As for the form of their involvement, they have troops in the field and, at the same time, they occupy some regions in an administrative sense.

[English]

Mr. Keith Martin: Excuse me. Do you mean the Tutsis? Are you referring specifically to Tutsis?

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas: No. I do not think that we should raise ethnic considerations. At the present time in Rwanda, unless you insist on describing them as Tutsis, there are two ethnic groups which sometimes have completely shared interests. We should not simplify things, and I strongly recommend that you not adopt that simplification. We will be asking for trouble if we do that.

I said that some of the foreign troops, in addition to having military forces engaged in combat, also had personnel carrying out administrative duties. For example, there are security agreements and administrative agreements between Kigali, in Rwanda, and South Kivu: income tax and customs duties are now collected jointly, which is not insignificant.

Similarly, in the new province of Ituri, the former governor had been appointed by Uganda and, if it can be said, the people responsible for security in this region of North Kivu and the eastern province are under Ugandan orders.

As for Burundi, as far as we know, it maintains troops near its border and also near Katanga. We will not go into the details of why they do so.

As for the allies of President Kabila, there are Zimbabwean troops present in force, in particular controlling the town of Mbuji-Mayi, the diamond capital of the Congo. And there is good reason for this. Another ally, very close by, was Angola, which was maintaining troops but we do not know where they are currently stationed. However, they are ready to intervene, in particular to go to fight the rebels of Unita, who will flee from the Congo side.

And so, there are some in Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia.

[English]

Mr. Keith Martin: I'm sorry. In Angola, you're referring not to SPLA, you're referring to Mr. Dos Santos' troops. Is that correct?

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas: That is correct. Dos Santos is now an ally of Mr. Kabila. Namibia also has troops, but in smaller numbers. It is said that there are between 1,000 and 2,000 troops, but it is quite difficult to know exactly.

That is the situation in the field. There is also the whole set of wider alliances at the regional level, including the SADC, which is a South African association for development cooperation. There are some internal divisions but, to date, the majority of the SADC nations support the Lusaka agreements. However, in the early days of the rebellion, they took the position of upholding the power, the authority of Kinshasa. That is the first part of my answer concerning...

• 1640

Mr. Keith Martin: My second question is

[English]

just two or three hard targets that we can pursue in terms of peace, actions that are really doable by our country.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas: Certainly. Your idea of sending a delegation to the Congo seems to me an extremely interesting one. In Africa, there are three countries that are important because of their population and economic wealth: Nigeria, the Congo and South Africa. The Congo is now at war and is destabilizing the whole region. It is a very complex situation and I urge you strongly to send a delegation so that it will learn about the problems in the field. This is not, strictly speaking, a recommendation.

Next week there will be consultations at Foreign Affairs on the Human Rights Commission in Geneva. At the meeting of the committee of the Security Council, France, with Canada's support, suggested that, following the commission, there be a committee established to observe or investigate the despoiling of natural resources. President Kabila is opposed to this. Canada should insist on it. If that happens there, it will happen elsewhere, in other conflict zones in Africa. I think that this is a very important issue.

There's another major point. Canada is not a military force, but it is a significant diplomatic force. It should support all these attempts at dialogue among the Congolese, by supporting Mr. Masire, the former President of Botswana. Time will tell whether Mr. Masire is up to the task, but we certainly hope so, and he needs a great deal of support: technical, diplomatic and financial support.

In response to your third question...

[English]

Mr. Keith Martin: It was just to table the list of Canadian companies that are active in the DRC, Canadian companies that are engaging in behaviours that are contributing to the conflict. But that can be tabled, as I know there are others who would like to ask questions. So if any of you have information on that, if you could provide it to the chairperson, that would be great. Thank you.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas: I would just like to make one final comment. I spoke about mining and security companies—I believe there is one in Toronto—but there are also now these new human resettlement companies. They are Canadian companies specialized in relocating people who have had to move when mining companies expropriate them in order to set up their operations. Parliament should take an interest in this issue.

[English]

The Chair: Madam Debien.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Mr. Marc Kapenda: I would like to add something regarding the second question on what Mr. Tougas just said.

We think that Canada should focus on a few issues at present. Respect for the ceasefire is something very important. As you know, this ceasefire is not respected today. It began to be violated by the government forces, and then the rebellion side or the aggression side followed.

• 1645

We think that a few efforts are being met by some people for respect of the ceasefire. Mr. Masire was in Kinsasha for a few days and met with almost all the forces—the internal forces in the Congo. But there is also Etienne Tshisekedi, who has been able to get out of Kinsasha and who is currently in South Africa. He has been able to meet with a few presidents: the President of Angola, the President of Mozambique, and the President of Namibia. He has also been able to meet with Mr. Masire on his way back through South Africa. He has received a few emissaries from Uganda. The efforts he has been making tend to bring people to the complete respect of the ceasefire.

Mr. Tshisekedi, after being in South Africa, has wanted to come to Canada and to be received by Prime Minister Chrétien so that he can clarify the matter pertaining to the crisis in Zaire. We have written a letter, as we were asked to by Mr. Chrétien's secretary, so that the application for being received by Mr. Chrétien will be official. The response we had was that at the time we were applying this, which was the end of last month, Mr. Chrétien was not available.

Tshisekedi is still out at any time if the Prime Minister is available. He can be invited and clarify the matter. This may be an alternative to what Mr. Tougas has just asked. If you can't go to Zaire, at least there is one person who is out and who can clarify the situation to Parliament and to many others. This might be more efficient.

The Chair: Thank you. We're going to have to come back to that question.

Madame Debien.

[Translation]

Ms. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Good afternoon, gentlemen, presidents and representatives of the various organizations.

Since I am from the Montreal area, I followed the Montreal conference quite closely, and the follow-up to it in the report of the mission to Africa and the one done by the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development in Montreal. Subsequently, the Independent Commission for Inter-Congolese Dialogue was involved in the whole process.

I would like to know, and I'm going to ask the question very directly, whether all of you, as representatives of these organizations, and who are concerned about what is happening in Congo-Kinshasa, were at the conference in Montreal. Do you agree with all the principles and recommendations put forward there?

I consider this important, because if we want to talk about an inter-Congolese dialogue in Congo-Kinshasa—I still use this name, because I still cannot call the country the DRC—we must also talk here about a dialogue involving the representatives of the various organizations concerned about this situation.

So my question is direct: are you all on the same wavelength as to the follow-up to the Montreal conference and its recommendations? That is my first question.

My second question is to Mr. Tougas and is specifically about mines, because the presence of Canadian companies in Africa concerns me as well. As you know, Mr. Tougas, the Harker Report on Sudan and Talisman was released recently. You have also seen the Canadian position on the Talisman mine, namely that Canada would not intervene.

You told us that Canada has also not ratified the convention on mercenaries. Do you think that on the basis of your recommendation, Canada will be prepared to intervene, even though it did not do so in the case of Talisman? That is my second question.

• 1650

I have a third question. Very recently, a resolution was passed by the Security Council of the United Nations on sending troops to the Democratic Republic of the Congo. In one of the follow-up recommendations that came out of Montreal, it was stated that at least 12,000 people were required to act as an international observer mission to supervise the withdrawal of occupation forces, or of rebel forces. Do you think that that is a large enough force at the moment, to restore peace to Congo- Kinshasa? Our own government, through our ambassador, has expressed some reservations about the number of people being sent by the UN.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Yes, Ms. Debien. I can make a start at answering your question. First of all, while I'm not trying to boast, I would say that we initiated the Montreal conference. It followed the National Sovereign Conference in Kinshasa and brought together almost all the Congolese organizations, and included representatives from civil society and the political parties. This was the first time that I had seen a member of the UDPS sit beside a member of the PDSC, who was sitting beside a member of the PALU, who in turn was sitting beside a member of the FONUS.

The reason I mention this political party, is to tell you that the problem in the Congo is a political problem. We cannot hide from that fact. We often talk about the Rwandans. When I look at the map, I, as a person of Congolese origin, am ashamed. A little country, Rwanda, located beside us, is causing terror because of a few crazy soldiers who are not afraid to die.

That is being done with the complicity of the Congolese, because the Congolese problem is a political problem. If President Kabila can sit down with Mr. Étienne Tshisekedi, Mr. Boboliko of the PDSC, Mr. Olengankhoy of the FONUS and Antoine Gizenga—an experienced person who says he was a supporter of Lumumba and who was often jailed for this—if he respects what Lumumba stood for, if he can sit down with the four people I just mentioned, I think that the problem of Rwanda's domination will be settled.

I consider the Rwandans to be mercenaries. The people come to rob, loot, rape and kill, and, as I said before, this is really a political problem.

The conference in Montreal was a starting point for bringing together all these groups, and we are continuing to try to maintain this forum, because I am sure that the day that Mr. Étienne Tshisekedi, Mr. Olengankhoy, Mr. Boboliko and Mr. Gizenga, whom I respect a great deal, will be able to come and sit in our places—because we cannot say we know everything about the Congo—they will have something different to say, and they will tell you what is wrong in the Congo. I think this would even be better as a test internationally. Before even thinking about a mission, perhaps we should be inviting these politicians who are being trampled by Mr. Kabila. He is neglecting them. In order for Mr. Étienne Tshisekedi to be heard, he had to go to South Africa for medical treatment. You have followed his travels. He is not the only one. Young Olengankhoy is often beaten. He spent close to a year in prison and...

[English]

The Chair: Excuse me. May I just explain one thing?

We intend to go and see. However, the purpose of these meetings today is that we want to know if the Canadian government can be of assistance, if this committee can make recommendations to the Government of Canada to assist the people of the Congo, and what area... It's a huge area to focus on. We've decided to do Africa and we've broken it down to the Congo and surrounding area. Now we need to know what exactly... We can't do everything. We need for you to pinpoint what you think would be the best thing for us to focus on in directing the government.

• 1655

Mr. Lucien Naki: Yes indeed, Mrs. President. As Ms. Debien said, the job has been done. The conference of Montreal, all the job is done. The recommendation... We are going to give you all the documents, even if it was more than one year ago.

One year ago we were asking about the intervention of the UN. People were laughing here. Today the things we asked for one year ago... We are going to leave all the recommendations from the Montreal conference. Indeed, if you can see what was one month ago and what Mr. Masire is planning to do, all these jobs have been done by the international centre, which is in collaboration with the Congolese organization.

The Chair: Mr. Tougas, please.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas: Here's my answer to your three questions. Most Canadian or Canadian-Congolese groups agreed with the recommendations that came out of the Montreal conference, in the context and circumstances of the time. The conference followed a series of meetings that had been held in Pretoria, Anvers, Montreal and then New York. However, the dynamics have changed considerably. Since the Lusaka agreements, since intervention from within the country by civil society and particularly the churches, I think the dynamics are completely different. For example, there was a consultation organized by the religious groups in which both members of civil society and the political parties were invited to participate. In addition, last week Kabila called on patriots, or members of the various parties, not the chiefs, to play a role. So I think the dynamics have changed considerably.

On the issue of mines, this is what I think Canada could do. All African countries where mining is an important industry are reviewing their mining codes. That is happening at the moment in the Congo. Canada helped out a great deal in the revision of the mining code in Botswana and Lesotho, to Canada's advantage, I should add. Given Canada's knowledge of the mining industry, it could improve its performance and look out for the national interest of the countries where this activity is going on. Even here in Canada, there is tremendous reluctance on the part of mining companies to adopt a code of conduct. We have to push for this internationally, particularly in conflict zones. Unfortunately, I cannot say that the current convention is working, or that it is the best one. Rather, there is ambiguity at the international level as to whether this should be set aside to bring the situation into much clearer focus and whether we should be talking about security companies, not to mention mercenaries. Canada will have to look at this. It is better to do so sooner rather than later.

So 5,000 people, as was mentioned at the Montreal conference, is inadequate. Everyone agrees on that. It is only the second phase of the observation mission. Twelve thousand people in total, for a country like the Congo, is insignificant. The international will does not seem to exist to go further than that. We will therefore have to count on good will, or on types of pressure other than just military pressure, to achieve the cease-fire.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you.

Madame Augustine.

Ms. Jean Augustine: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too want to say how pleased I am to have had the opportunity to hear from you. It is a very complex situation, and we're trying to narrow it in such a way that we can somehow see how our work can be meaningful.

• 1700

Is there a timeline on the inter-Congolese dialogue? When is that supposed to be taking place? Do we know what that timeline is?

Canada has been supportive in several different areas. It has been fitting bits and pieces of funding into programs, and substantial funding in some cases. We're trying to grasp, I would imagine, the question of how much more we can do and where exactly our efforts can go. If we could focus again on the question that Keith Martin asked, what are some targets to pursue?

We can come out of this meeting with something from you who are on the ground and who seem to be in day-to-day contact through the research and other work you've been doing. If you're able to, just narrow this down into three, four, or five things: this is what Canada should do; this is what we could do; this is where we could help; this is what this committee of parliamentarians can do. I think this would be of assistance to our committee.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Thank you very much.

First of all, I will make the recommendation indeed to meet with Mr. Masire, because for the moment we are talking about the Lusaka accord for the ceasefire, and the immediate play is Mr. Masire. I think the first thing the Canadians must do now, while working with the Congolese, is to meet... As you can see in the plan we have made, we meet in one week's or two weeks' time. Our embassy in Gaborone, Botswana, is to help us to have an appointment with Mr. Masire. From there, we can hear, because when Masire was in Kinshasa, he met all the political organizations, the civil society. He knows now what to do, and he needs help, as Mr. Tougas said. For the moment, I've been talking with his secretary. The OAU, the African organization that mandated him to do the job, didn't give him the staff for his secretariat. He is still waiting.

I think Canada is a country that, by playing in the Commonwealth and the Francophonie, can help Masire among Congolese. They are bilingual here, and can help Masire in this way. I think that is the first step.

The second step, as I said, will indeed be up to you as elected representatives. You are politicians. Why not meet the Congolese politicians and talk about what they are planning, what they can give as plans to solve this bloodshed problem? People are dying.

The Chair: We will be meeting with elected politicians as part of our study.

Dr. Kasende.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: I am going to emphasize one point. The others are really focussing on inter-Congolese dialogue. Today, in Kinshasa, a process called consultation has been initiated by the heads of religious groups.

I wonder whether the representatives of those that are called rebels, who are living in the occupied territories, like Wamba Dia Wamba and Ondekane, who are rebel leaders in the occupied territories, can participate in this dialogue. It is difficult, since they are dependent on the countries whose forces occupy Congolese territory. So I think that launching dialogue among Congolese...

• 1705

On the government side, that problem does not exist. In fact, a number of attempts have been made, but the rebels claim that their security would be at risk. They did not want to answer the call. I believe that our analysis shows that this is a strategy on the part of Uganda and Rwanda, who want to see the situation in the Congo continue as it is because it is very much to their advantage.

I have a document here in which Rwanda says that it can carry on this war for a long time to come, since it has managed to accumulate wealth, in the form of natural resources from the Congo.

So pressure should be brought to bear by international opinion and by Canada to get these countries to allow rebel leaders, who are in fact allies of the occupying countries, to take part in this dialogue.

The Chair: Mr. Kapenda.

Mr. Marc Kapenda: We are satisfied with Mr. Naki's intervention. For a clearer understanding of the situation, he proposes that, before you take any action, you try to meet with Mr. Masire if possible, who has just been to the Congo. He is also suggesting that you try to meet with Congolese politicians and Étienne Tshisekedi, which is easy because we are talking about a democratic opposition leader from the Congo who is outside the country. He has a peace plan formulated two years ago, which he is trying to make known in the West. Perhaps he could appear before you. He would provide you with information, as would Boboliko or Olengankhoy from the FONUS. If you cannot invite Gizenga and everyone, he will be able to give you an understanding of the situation. They speak with one voice, maintaining that this political crisis must absolutely be stopped in order to bring peace to the country.

We also believe, ladies and gentlemen, that the 5,000-member force, as Mr. Tougas has just said, is meaningless in the Congo. Our Canadian government can play an influential role to have the intervention forces strengthened. Whether the members come from Europe or Africa, one thing is certain: a substantial increase in numbers is needed. We feel that all this should move in the direction of a national roundtable.

The conference of religious groups, which was mentioned by some people here, is not part of the work that was discussed in Montreal and whose philosophy is represented here by Mr. Naki. Religious groups represent civil society. They are part of civil society. In a country run by a dictatorship, as is the case in the Congo, it is not right that a few religious groups, which are Protestant groups, since the Catholics have lost their solidarity, should call a national meeting and invite political institutions, political parties and civil society to take part. This is something that should be done by the State and not part of civil society. If civil society does this without being called to order by the State, one can assume that the State is behind it and is using this part of civil society as a tool.

Many Congolese do not believe in these consultations by the religious groups. If the rebels and political parties are not taking part, it is not because they are being prevented from doing so by anyone, but simply because they do not believe in it. In fact, no serious political party is taking part. The rebels are not there either. We feel that this is a waste of time and effort.

• 1710

[English]

The Chair: Thank you. It's—

[Translation]

[Editor's Note: Inaudible]

An Hon. Member: —

Some Hon. Members: No.

[English]

The Chair: No, I'm sorry. Can I just—

Ms. Jean Augustine: I just want to make one comment. For the inter-Congolese dialogue, Canada has pledged $1 million to His Excellency Masire for the work he's going to be doing, so we are involved there in terms of support for the dialogue. Does anybody know the timeline on that? I think that was the question I asked.

Mr. Lucien Naki: What I can say about what Ms. Augustine said is that yes, indeed, Canada has put in $1 million, but if you must know, it was a big surprise. But to me, I still feel disappointed. The money is there, but tomorrow, Ms. Augustine, if you can call CIDA, they are going to say that now they are looking for someone to show them how to spend the money. Since the money was put on the table, they don't even know what to do with it and to whom to send it. I'm trying to tell you again that we would like to help Mr. Masire to solve this problem, because people there are dying. Please. Our sisters and brothers there are are dying. If it was up to me and I could win the lotto tomorrow, I would be on the plane to go there, but at the moment we don't have that possibility.

For that money, if possible, can I ask for this committee here to try to find out what the plan is? There is no plan for that. We have been working for that, and have been asking them to give us the possibility to go to Botswana, but they said no.

The Chair: We'll be meeting with the department three weeks from today. The $1 million that was given was for the inter-Congolese dialogue, however...

You're talking about how we can facilitate an agreement for peace and a ceasefire. That is not the mandate of this committee. The Department of National Defence looks at peacekeeping, and certainly the political will is decided by the ministers and their advisers and the inter-dialogue between the different parties. That is not the mandate of this committee.

We all agree that the people in Congo are having a difficult time during this continuing conflict, but what we want to know is how we can assist during this difficult time. Once peace has been brokered, we have to look at what is within the civil society to facilitate this and to maintain it, so that it will be a lasting peace and will help to further and develop democracy. This is the mandate of our committee. We can look at humanitarian assistance or assistance toward stabilizing a democratic system once peace has been achieved. I believe there's $1 million for child soldiers. We need to eliminate that; however, we know that if there's no peace, there will continue to be child soldiers. So what we're really looking at is how we can assist in humanitarian aid and in helping to build the infrastructure to facilitate a democracy once peace is achieved.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Yes, indeed, but to achieve all that, first of all we have to stop the war. As I said, to stop the war is very easy, because the Congolese problem is a political matter. If, as I said, those three, Tshisekedi, Gizenga, Olengankhoy, and the others can meet with President Kabila, I'm telling you that the war will stop in two weeks. From there, you can help us to rebuild the democratic system.

• 1715

For the moment, there is no need to say “Thank you very much for helping us in Mozambique”. Yesterday I read that Mrs. Minna put forward $1 million because there is a flood in Mozambique. Thank you very much to the Canadian government. But for the moment, in the Congo... I think even $1 million is nothing in Mozambique. Thank you for that, but concretely it is nothing.

As Mr. Tougas said and as my colleague said, there is a problem for mining and so on in the Congo. But the real problem is a political problem that Canada can help to solve. The only thing is that Kabila must meet with Tshisekedi and the other politicians to solve that problem. Ilunga and Professor Wambaugh are just from the Kabila side, and they are using Rwandis to make the Congo an arena.

[Translation]

I will tell you an anecdote. The Mozambican ambassador said that the danger in the Congo is that President Kabila has turned it into an arena where African countries with problems can do their dirty laundry instead of destroying each other at home.

[English]

The Chair: Yes, Dr. Kasende.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Madame, I represent the Research Centre on Democracy for Development in Africa. I want us to be neutral, all of us, in our analysis.

I have reason to believe that some people are kind of arguing on behalf of the parties they represent. We, on the other hand, are looking at the situation. How can we have an inter-Congolese dialogue? Working to achieve democracy in the Congo is very important. We all want that. But the two countries occupying the Congo have a very strong influence. I believe that democracy in the Congo is what everyone wants. We want that. That is why we wanted Mobutu out. But we also need a regional conference on democratization. Rwanda, Burundi and Uganda are countries with dictatorships, in fact, because they are military powers. If we build democracy in the Congo, it needs to spread everywhere.

As proof, the Congo is now occupied by those countries. Tshisekedi in Kinshasa and Olengankhoy, who was arrested when the Rwandans were there, have been released. I am sure that we can find an opportunity to have a dialogue with those who make up the unarmed opposition. But the people who are supported by the countries occupying the Congo will not want to take part in this dialogue, since those countries have an interest in seeing the present situation continue.

I believe that Canada's role is to do everything possible to ensure that a regional conference is held on the democratic development of all the countries in the region, starting, of course, with the Congo. But until there is democracy in the countries around us, there will always be people from those countries living in the Congo and they will always have the pretext of going back to their country to attack the regime there. That seems logical to me. I saying this, I am not defending any political party. I am defending the interests of the region and the Congo.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Tougas.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Tougas: I want to come back to the agenda of the inter-Congolese dialogue and what Canada can do to support that. There are currently some problems. As we know—and no one is hiding this fact—Mr. Masire was imposed by the United States, Rwanda, Uganda and the rebels. Mr. Kabila has accepted him, while knowing full well what the situation is.

The problems are as follows. As far as we know, Mr. Masire's technical committee has not yet been organized. I do not know whether Canada can play a role in this regard, but it would be good to have some clarification on where this is heading.

Mr. Masire is intelligent. He will not call for inter- Congolese dialogue until he is sure that it has a chance to succeed. For that to happen, the people in Kinshasa and the rebels have to agree to take part, which is not yet the case. Canada has no diplomatic ties with the rebels and no way to bring pressure to bear. It does, however, have ties with Rwanda and Uganda. That is a very firm and important way of ensuring that dialogue can begin. I will stop there.

• 1720

The Chair: Mr. Kapenda.

Mr. Marc Kapenda: I want to make an important clarification. The national roundtable is a principle that has been accepted by all parties. The so-called aggressor countries, Rwanda and Uganda, have signed the Lusaka accords, which state that under the terms of the cease-fire, national consultations will take place. So we have the national roundtable, which brings together the rebel political forces, civil society and the unarmed political forces, the present leadership and, of course, observers.

The philosophy of the current leadership in the Congo in response to pressure for democratization is to call for Rwanda and Uganda to be democratized first. The Congolese groups represented here are thinking about the Congo's internal problems. Of course, as my colleague, Mr. Kasende, said, we believe that the region must achieve democracy. There are other, parallel groups from Rwanda and Uganda who would say the same thing. We believe that if a regional effort can be made, all the better, but given the Congolese crisis right now, we are not willing to wait for the democratization of Rwanda and Uganda before democracy can be achieved in the Congo.

There is popular demand at the national level for democratic development in the Congo. Mobilization in this regard has been going on since 1990. All the policies that did not support democratic development has failed and will always fail. That is the case today, with Mr. Kabila; although Mr. Kabila's nationalist policy to mobilize people has been greeted favourably, he has been quickly disavowed by the public, who feel that democracy is being achieved too slowly.

Canada should therefore, as has already been said, give concrete support and use its influence to have the cease-fires respected and the national roundtable held. If Canada needs more clarification, more information, we have provided you with the names of people who can provide you with that information.

Financial support is important in organizing Mr. Masire's work. As well, however, we feel that the people in the eastern part of the Congo need humanitarian assistance. NGOs are there to distribute any humanitarian aid to the people who are now in the forests or in the villages, but who have been pillaged and have lost all their wealth; they are suffering from famine and living in misery.

We believe that if you can intervene and provide the humanitarian assistance these people need, it would be a big help. Of course, those ruling these rebel territories may get hold of these supplies, and that is why we think that the aid should be provided through the NGOs. It would be something to try.

An Hon. Member: Thank you.

• 1725

[English]

The Chair: Okay, thank you. I'll give you two minutes each.

Dr. Kasende.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: I agree with what the others have said, but I want to insist on one thing. We must talk about democracy in the Congo, since I want to start there. For example, how could it be possible today for those living in the regions occupied by foreign armies to take part in an election? Where do we need to start in order to enable all Congolese to express their opinions? I heard my colleague say that democracy was behind schedule.

Kabila took power in 1997. In 1998, the war started and has been going on ever since. Honestly, ladies and gentlemen, under conditions of war, is it possible for everyone in our country to express their views freely? If we were able to organize elections, where would we have to start? I believe that the simplest rationale would be to begin by asking the forces occupying the Congo to leave.

Canada could use all its influence to make the international community understand that the UN forces must be present in sufficient numbers to force the uninvited armies that are illegally occupying Congolese territory to go back to their own countries so that security can be maintained in the parts of the country where people are under threat. That way, there would be no more reason to wait: there would have to be elections and democracy would necessarily bloom in the Congo. The logic is simple.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you.

Madame Debien has a question.

[Translation]

Ms. Maud Debien: My question deals with the various Canadian government projects in the Republic of the Congo. My colleagues have talked about millions of dollars being spent to support certain initiatives. I want to read to you from a departmental news release:

CIDA will provide one million dollars to support initiatives led by partners...

I imagine that means NGOs.

working to promote inter-Congolese dialogue.

CIDA will provide one million dollars to the DRC for disarmament, rehabilitation and reintegration of child soldiers into Congolese society.

From what I understand, one million dollars will be spent through the NGOs and another million dollars in direct bilateral aid will be provided to the regime in power. What do you think of that? I would like to hear your opinions.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Thank you, Ms. Debien.

In answer to your question on child soldiers, we know President Kabila well and are speaking knowledgeably.

Personally, I was a refugee in Tanzania in the 1980s. Before coming here, I knew Mr. Kabila in Tanzania. I can tell you that Mr. Kabila wants to win this war alone and he therefore needs child soldiers.

I am not talking about the rebellion, since in a rebellion you are really dealing with "monsters". They do anything they want and they kill people. As a Congolese, I rely on the government in power. As long as there is no cease-fire and the political problem remains unresolved, the child soldiers will be there. We can look at the example of Liberia and other countries.

To begin with, even the officials do not know where they are going to put that money. I have told you that, Madame. Look into it yourself and you will find that to be true.

Ms. Maud Debien: You have answered my question. Normally, there should not be any government-to-government bilateral aid in this case.

Mr. Lucien Naki: Right.

Ms. Maud Debien: Everything should be done through the NGOs.

Mr. Lucien Naki: That's right.

Ms. Maud Debien: Very well.

Mr. Lucien Naki: You have my answer.

Ms. Maud Debien: You have answered my question.

Mr. Lucien Naki: My friend was asking where we should start in order to develop the democracy. I am going to put these documents here, Madam; I would like you to take a look at them.

• 1730

This was written by Collette Braeckman, and is dated February 15th. She states:

Today more than ever, the issues need to be clarified and untangled: Rwanda's security and the protection of its borders can and should be the subject of an international guarantee. But cohabitation of all the Congolese communities, democratization of the country, improvement in its governance capacity are an internal issue that must be negotiated without any interference.

If President Kabila cannot agree to sit down with his brother, Tshisekedi, he must first make every effort to have these wounds dressed in South Africa in order to have the right to speak. Olengankhoy and the others are still being arrested and beaten. How can democracy be achieved? The problem is a political one. President Kabila must sit down with the others.

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Madame, I will answer that question.

Mr. Lucien Naki: I am tabling this document so that you can read it.

[English]

The Chair: The situation in the Congo is obviously tremendously complex. We certainly hope that the Lusaka accord will lead to peace, and we're looking forward to seeing the recommendations of the Montreal conference.

Thank you for helping to educate us. We will do what we can, as the subcommittee on human rights and international development, to pursue this. Please feel free to send us any material you think will help. Thank you for appearing today.

Madame Debien.

[Translation]

Ms. Maud Debien: Madam Chair, I think that the last question I asked is quite important. Mr. Naki answered very directly. I would like to know what Mr. Tougas thinks. I do not want to prolong our meeting unduly, Madam Chair, but would you agree to give us three minutes to hear a short answer from each of the witnesses? We need to know how this Canadian funding is being used.

Mr. Denis Tougas: It is important to find out whether this money will go through the Congolese government. As far as I know, the conference was organized with the collaboration of the government, but also that of the special representative of the Human Rights Commission in the field and a number of multilateral agencies.

As far as I know, very little money is flowing through the Congolese government. The only exception is with respect to the central bank. In order for this to be done, international aid at CIDA changed a great deal.

Ms. Maud Debien: Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Madame Debien, I don't think any of these presenters are in a position to know where the Canadian government is sending its money. The department will appear before us in three weeks' time, and I think that perhaps they would be best equipped—

[Translation]

Ms. Maud Debien: In any case, we already have some answers.

[English]

The Chair: You're asking for their recommendations of where this money should be going, as opposed to what the government has announced. I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

Mrs. Maud Debien: Yes.

[Translation]

Mr. Marc Kapenda: We think that at a time when any pressure could be helpful in discouraging advances by an autocratic authority, bilateral aid can only be seen as encouraging dictatorship. We think that cutting off aid should be one of the pressure tactics used to achieve a democratic system in the Congo.

Mr. Lucien Naki: To add to that, I would like to say that we are fighting with the Canadian companies that are operating the mines. In addition, as a taxpayer, I cannot accept the fact that this aid is going into Mr. Kabila's pockets and that he is giving the money to his henchmen to go out and arrest Mr. Tshisekedi, Mr. Olengankhoy and the others, as well as members of civil society. I cannot accept that.

• 1735

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: Ms. Debien, I always adopt the position of neutrality of our Centre, and I would just say that when we look at how the situation has developed, Mr. Kabila, who gets information because we send him memoranda, has made many, many concessions. Mr. Tougas has just testified to that fact quite eloquently. He is agreeing to everything in order to have an end to the war, even agreements that are not to his advantage. The people chosen, a choice was dictated by Rwanda and Burundi, have been accepted by him.

My colleagues are striking out at an authority that is making concessions, something that is in fact an expression of democracy, if that is what we want. However, I would have liked people to be sincere in their comments and to say what the real facts are.

I met Mr. Naki for the first time today.

[English]

The Chair: Excuse me, you're out of order.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: I just want to tell you that in his writings...

[Editor's Note: Inaudible]

Mr. Lucien Naki: —

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: I know you through your writings. I have here a document signed by Mr. Naki, as... It says: “Zaire no longer exist. Long live the free and independent province of Kantaga!”

This is someone who...

Mr. Lucien Naki: Madam...

[English]

The Chair: Thank you—

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Christophe Kasende: In other words...

[English]

The Chair: Thank you. No, sorry. Please. No, you're out of order, sir.

We have now extended over our hearing time.

Thank you, everyone, for coming. Please, if there's any material you think will help us, if you send it to the committee we'll see that it's distributed. Thank you.

The meeting is adjourned to the call of the chair.