NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, December 3, 1998

• 0903

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.)): We call to order the meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs—or SCONDVA, if you prefer the acronym.

Today we're pleased to welcome Major Kendall Foster, retired, chair of the restoration committee, and General E.A.C. Amy, retired, member of the restoration committee.

Gentlemen, I'm pleased to welcome you both. Mr. Earle requested this, and we were happy to have you invited as witnesses.

I will indicate as well that I have a letter from Walter Fitzgerald, Mayor, Halifax Regional Municipality, which was given to me before the meeting and very much supports the witnesses in their requests here today. We'll put that on the record.

And just before we begin, Mr. Bertrand.

Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I want to remind the witnesses that we do have a vote at 10.35 this morning.

The Chairman: That's right. Thank you.

If the bells begin to ring and we get nervous, you'll understand. We'll have to head across to the House. I think we'll probably be all right. If you will make your submission, we'll then have questions from the members.

Major-General Kendall Foster (Ret.) (Chairman, Restoration Committee, Halifax Rifles Armoury Association): First of all, sir, I would like to express our thanks to you for allowing us to come before this committee and my thanks to my member of Parliament, Gordon Earle, who brought our problem to your attention.

• 0905

We know that this committee will listen, will consider matters brought before it, and will make recommendations which will influence government action. In addition, the makeup and the political experience of the members of the committee will allow it to realize that implementation of government policy and decisions must allow some flexibility for special circumstances.

What are we asking for? Why are we here?

The Halifax Rifles, Royal Canadian Armoured Corps, was retired to the Supplementary Order of Battle in 1965, as a result of the Suttie Commission and Mr. Paul Hellier's consolidation objectives.

When we were retired, we were a tank regiment, but we realize that in this day and age tank training is very difficult. As a matter of fact, in the Maritimes the only tanks are located in Gagetown, New Brunswick, which would certainly make a Halifax unit training on tanks very difficult and scarce.

We therefore propose that the Rifles be reactivated as a skeleton reconnaissance squadron and ask that the Land Force Atlantic Area be allocated 40 additional soldiers and 11 jeep-like or off-road vehicles earmarked specifically for the purpose of reactivating the Halifax Rifles.

The start-up costs—these costs were also confirmed with us by Land Force Atlantic Area—including the cost of vehicles, would be $700,000, and it is unlikely that half of this would be spent during the first year. The recurring costs would be in the order of $400,000 a year.

We believe that the Department of National Defence can acquire additional funds sometimes for special circumstances, particularly if what was reported in Maclean's magazine is correct—that they found $15 million to build a new armoury in Chicoutimi.

Halifax will be celebrating its 250th birthday in 1999. The restoration of this regiment could be an appropriate recognition of Halifax's contribution to Canada, particularly through two world wars. Also, the city, its businesses, and its citizens recently did a great job for Mr. Chrétien when he hosted the G-7 summit.

Just let me tell you a few things about the Halifax Rifles. I'll try to be brief.

I guess I'm a relative latecomer to the Rifles. I did not join them until late 1945, after I was discharged from the Canadian Army and returned to university. I had, however, been associated with the army since 1936, when I joined the Halifax High School cadets.

I served with the regiment until it was retired in 1965. During that time, I developed a deep respect and affection for the regiment and its long history of service and for those who served in its ranks and their dedication to and pride in their units. Like any organization, a regiment's character and its capabilities are the sum total of the character and the capabilities of those who serve in its ranks, from the troopers to the commanding officers.

We have roots going back to 1749, when the Nova Scotia militia was formed and every every able-bodied male from 16 to 60 who came over with Lord Cornwallis was assigned to a numbered company.

• 0910

In 1859, it was realized that this was no longer working out so well, and six volunteer companies were organized. The names of these are quite revealing. There were: the 1st Scottish Rifles, the Chebucto Greys, the Mayflower Rifles, the Irish Volunteer Rifles, the Halifax Rifles and the Dartmouth Rifles. In the next year, all of these companies were united into the first Halifax Volunteer Battalion. A few years later, it became the 63rd Battalion, Halifax Rifles.

In 1862, the mayor's wife at that time, on behalf of the City of Halifax, presented the regiment with its colours. Here again, this was probably the first time that a rifle regiment broke tradition. Normally, rifle regiments do not carry colours, but the city was determined that they should do so.

Our first call to duty was in 1866 during the Fenian scare, with 150 men and officers detailed for guard duty. They were relieved from duty a month later when the Fenians failed to show up. In 1885, we furnished 109 officers and men for the battalion that went to the Northwest Rebellion. In 1898, we sent troops to South Africa and the war there. In 1914, the unit paraded on August 4 and was ordered to mobilize. Its members served with distinction, paying a heavy price during the war. From the Rifles, 75 officers and 800 other ranks proceeded overseas, and of these, 117 gave their lives.

In the period between World Wars I and II, the regiment remained active, training as a rifle regiment and participating in community affairs, especially on ceremonial occasions.

In the late 1930s, international tensions increased, and in mid-1939 war appeared to be inevitable. It's interesting that on the August 26, 1939, at 9 p.m., our commanding officer received instructions to mount guards in nine locations in and around Halifax. This required 7 officers and 129 other ranks. What to me is unbelievable for that time is that by 3.30 a.m. all the guards were in position. In 1939, the regiment was quickly brought up to strength and manned defensive units in various parts of Nova Scotia.

In May, 1942, additional armoured regiments were required for overseas. The Rifles were ordered to convert to an armoured regiment and they proceeded to Camp Borden to train in this role. I think this too is a tribute to the unit: as a rifle unit, we had the leaders and the men who could suddenly change and adapt themselves to a new role requiring highly specialized training.

Now comes the bad news.

In one year, the unit proceeded overseas as an armoured regiment and was there until August. And at that point, logistics showed that the need for reinforcements was greater than the need for new armoured regiments. The 2nd Canadian Army Tank Brigade was broken up to supply these reinforcements. From the Rifles, 38 officers and 600 men were posted to other armoured units, including the Grenadier Guards, the Sherbrooke Fusiliers, the 8th New Brunswick Hussars, and Canadian Army reinforcement units.

• 0915

Our colonel at that time, Colonel Ray Colwell, in the final item in his war diary, wrote, and I quote:

Today the Regiment is disbanded but its spirit will live on in the deeds that will be performed by its former members in the units they are reinforcing. The honours they win for other units will accrue to their old regiment the Halifax Rifles after the war and this history will not be complete until this phase of the history of its members is duly recognized.

Colonel Colwell himself was given command of the 1st Hussars, of London, Ontario, and led this regiment ashore at D-Day and through some 17 engagements in the the following few days. For his gallantry in action he was awarded the Distinguished Service Order.

In a minute, General Amy will speak to the service of these people who were posted for reinforcements.

After the war, in 1945, people coming back joined or rejoined the regiment. In 1946, we were reorganized as the 23rd Armoured Regiment, Halifax Rifles. From this time until we were disbanded, the Rifles trained, and I say with pride that it was one of the best militia units in Canada. We usually had on strength about 20 officers and 150 other ranks.

Many of these who joined the regiment later enlisted in the active force. In 1951, we provided a complete troop from the Halifax Rifles to proceed to Germany to serve with the Royal Canadian Dragoons at that time. This one of the main functions of the militia: to back up the active force.

The regiment was active during the war. We were able to fire at Eastern Passage. We had to fire out to sea at targets dragged for us by the navy. It was with a sense of disbelief that we received the news we were going to be retired to the Supplementary Order of Battle.

Being retired to a Supplementary Order of Battle means that we were reduced to zero strength and that the regiment remained in name only on the Supplementary Order of Battle, from which it can be recalled to the active role.

Although we were upset, I was very proud of the regiment because it never lost its cool and it carried out its last two parades with dignity. Our second-to-last parade saw the unit being presented with a guidon by Lieutenant-Governor Harry MacKeen, who had commanded the regiment in 1945 and later served as honorary colonel.

Our final parade saw our guidon being taken to King's College chapel and, with due ceremony, being placed alongside our colours, which had been put there at the outbreak of the Second World War.

Over the years, very many distinguished people came through from the ranks of the Rifles. On walking up here, I was very pleased to see that you have seen fit to erect a statue of Sir Robert Borden, who served with our regiment, as did Sir Charles Tupper. We have provided two prime ministers, five premiers of Nova Scotia and five lieutenant-governors of Nova Scotia. One of our more distinguished premiers also was a distinguished cabinet member here—Angus L. Macdonald.

Since 1965, the Halifax Rifles Armoury Association, which I represent, carried on the community work and has carried on all these years with the community work of the regiment.

• 0920

The fact that there is an armoury association says much, I think, about the leadership that the regiment had in 1900. In 1900, the new Halifax armoury was built and opened for residence. And once the Rifles had moved in, they found they had good quarters for administration. They had officers' messes and non-commissioned officers' messes, but for the men, for recreation purposes, there was practically nothing.

Those in charge realized that something must be done for the men of the regiment. The committee decided that we were going to build a building outside of the armouries and an act to incorporate the Rifles army association was passed in 1902.

Since 1965, we have been carrying out three main purposes, the main one being continuing the effort to have the regiment reinstated in the Militia Order of Battle. We have also supported—financially and with other assistance—the Halifax Rifles Cadet Corps. This cadet organization wears our hat badges and our other insignia.

Thirdly, perhaps more importantly, every year since the early 1960s we've presented at least two or more Halifax Rifles memorial scholarships to the universities in the Halifax area. In order, these are given first of all to dependents of members of the armoury association, and secondly to people serving in the militia in the Halifax area and our own cadet corps. A lot of these scholarships or bursaries, whatever they want to call them, have gone to cadets through the years.

I think this will give you some idea, and I would like to ask General Amy if he would speak to the war years.

Brigadier-General E.A.C. Amy (Ret.) (Member, Restoration Committee, Halifax Rifles Armoury Association): Mr. Chairman and Miss Wayne and gentlemen, I hope none of you can see my notes, because it might cause you to consider adjourning the meeting right away and sending us home.

It was rather a great surprise and a real boost to our morale to hear that we might be asked to appear before your committee. However, Ken and I live 50 miles apart, so on very short notice Ken started to write and I started to write, and when we arrived last night we found that the 11 a.m. meeting—as it was originally scheduled, as far as we were told—was changed to 9 a.m. We had little time to blend the two sets of notes, and we finally concluded that it was not possible.

So, gentlemen, we decided we would have to wing it. This is not to say that we are not fully informed on the subject. Rather, I don't think there are two individuals that are better informed on the details of this particular project, because Ken has been with it since 1965 and I've been with it since 1990.

With that introduction, I might add that it has already been an exciting experience. We've been to the West Block and the East Block and then back to the West Block—

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : —and my friend Ken has just come off a hip operation from about a month and a half ago, so I felt that I should carry his bag.

And incidentally, if you should see him kick me under the table, it's not a question of insubordination. We agreed that we must keep the focus today on what we're trying to do, and that is, to have the Halifax Rifles reactivated.

• 0925

Now, I'm an old soldier, and I just relish the opportunity to speak to people that are as interested as you people are in defence matters and in matters dealing with veterans. The normal tendency for me is to wax eloquent on some subject that may be not quite related to the Halifax Rifles, so Ken is going to kick me if I start to wander.

The Chairman: Sir, this might give you an indication. As was pointed out, we are going to have some votes. We're quite happy to hear whatever you want to say. It would be good if we could have some time for questions, though, before we do get called to vote. In regard to the meeting, our normal time is 9 a.m. You're right when you say the meeting time was moved to 11 a.m. Two days ago, though, it was put back to 9 a.m. I know the clerk made several attempts to reach you and advise you of that. If he didn't connect with you, I regret that. But anyhow, you're here and we're happy to hear you. And I want to thank Monsieur Godin for his forbearance. We've had to have a little patience with each other—us with your brief and you with the runaround on the meeting. We're happy to have you here.

You can carry on, but it would be nice if we could get some time for questions from the members.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Mr. Chairman, if I speak for more than 10 minutes, you can tell me to shut up.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

The Chairman: I wouldn't do that.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : And Mr. Godin, merci beaucoup. Vous êtes aimable.

A lot like Ken, and for the same reasons, I'm pleased to be here this morning. Your committee has already demonstrated that you have the capability to influence government policy. Unfortunately, this is something we have not been able to do in spite of years of effort and many supportive letters written on our behalf. In fact, we view this visit with your committee as the most positive event in our long struggle.

Now, it may surprise you to know that I am neither a former Halifax Rifle nor a member of the Halifax Rifles Association. I would like to give you a short explanation of why I am here and how I became involved.

As background, I am a native of the Maritimes and as a youngster I lived in each of the three provinces. My service background and experience is that of an armoured corps soldier. I am a veteran of World War II and the Korean War. I took our first contingent of Canadian soldiers to Cyprus in 1964. I served for five years in France with NATO, and later I commanded our NATO brigade in Germany. I retired from the army in 1972 and returned to Nova Scotia in 1975. I have served with five militia regiments, two of them from Nova Scotia, one from Oshawa, Ontario, one from Calgary, Alberta, and one, the Grenadier Guards, from Montreal. And of these last three, I fought with two of them in Sicily and Italy, and I fought with the Grenadier Guards in Normandy through to the end of the war in Germany.

In 1944, I returned from Italy to join an armoured regiment in England prior to the Normandy invasion, and it turned out to be the Canadian Grenadier Guards from Montreal. It was only after the war that I discovered 190 soldiers from this particular regiment had been posted to the units a year before I arrived. And to answer the question of why I'm involved, my connection to the Halifax Rifles is with that group.

As a result of recent research, we have identified the names of 13 of that group who were killed in action with us and another 16 who were wounded. I could identify some of the appointments that they've brought to the regiment. One of their officers with us was promoted to command a squadron. One of them became the adjutant. Two of them in turn became the technical adjutant of the regiment. One of them commanded the reconnaissance troop and another one was the intelligence officer. And the troop sergeants, NCOs, and crewmen were superb.

• 0930

Unfortunately, there is no record in the regiment's official history of what happened to the other 609 ranks and 38 officers who were on strength when the regiment was disbanded in England. In the handout, you will see that our research has identified 87 who were killed in action and 93 who were wounded. This research is ongoing.

In the early 1980s, I was asked by a brother wartime officer with the Canadian Grenadier Guards, Lieutenant-Colonel John Oland, if I would help with their efforts to have the regiment reactivated. I was delighted to say yes because of my high regard for him and for those Halifax Rifles soldiers with whom I served and fought. Sadly, John died several years ago, still striving to have the Rifles reactivated. When it happens, he will surely be there on parade.

A strong association continues between these two regiments, the Guards and the Rifles. In 1990, I was pleased to present a scroll commemorating this wartime association to to the Army Museum in Halifax on behalf of the Guards. I would like to pass to the chair a photograph of that particular scroll, if I may.

In this scroll, this is the inscription:

In this year of 1990, which marks the 50th anniversary of the mobilization of our regiments in World War II, we, all ranks of the Canadian Grenadier Guards, salute our comrades-in-arms, the Halifax Rifles, 23rd Armoured Regiment, RCAC, who joined with us on the fields of northwest Europe to bring freedom to the people of these faraway lands.

Furthermore, I was motivated to help because of the astonishing error made in 1965 when the regiment was deactivated and the connection between it and the historic City of Halifax was severed.

And on the military side, I was troubled when, in spite of the strategic importance of Nova Scotia, it removed the only armoured presence in the province, and in so doing, unnecessarily created an imbalance in the combat arms, contrary to an accepted army principle. I might add that it left Nova Scotia as the only old-time province without an armoured presence.

Hopefully these comments will help you understand my connection with the Rifles, how I became involved, and why I am here.

The annex to the papers you have shows the large number of units in which our soldiers were either killed or wounded. I'm very familiar with most of these units, should you have any questions on that item. Again, the total casualties so far discovered are 87 killed and 93 wounded. And again, this research is ongoing.

In retrospect, I would like to explain that we wasted a lot of time and endured much frustration in our early efforts by concentrating on the military net. Eventually it became clear that the military authorities had neither the resources nor the flexibility to cope with our problem, regardless of their views on its merits, and I might add here that the current commander and the three previous predecessors all agreed on the usefulness of this particular unit. If it were reactivated in Nova Scotia, they were all agreed that they would be pleased to have it. They could see its usefulness, but each one of them said, “We do not have the resources.” And that is a fact. They really do not.

As Ken explained, about five years ago we shifted our efforts to the political net, knowing that a favourable political decision was absolutely essential if the Halifax Rifles were to be reactivated.

• 0935

That, I might add, led us head-on into another frustration, an inflexible plan to restructure the reserves and, with it, a new frustration.

We appreciate that budget cuts and fiscal restraints are the order of the day. Nevertheless, we still see money allocated, in many cases for laudable and justifiable purposes, but unfortunately for some projects or ventures the justification for which seems to pale in comparison to the modest but significantly important proposal that we continue to put forward.

It is very difficult to accept that a favourable political decision involving considerably less than $1 million is still being denied, especially when one focuses on the significance to Nova Scotia and particularly to the City of Halifax in having its regiment on hand next summer when it celebrates its 250th birthday. I might reiterate that the connection between the city and the Halifax Rifles dates back to 1749 when the city was born. I know that if the regiment is not reactivated by then it will certainly be noticed in Halifax and Nova Scotia.

Ken has covered the history of the regiment and the tremendous uphill battle that the faithful members of their association have waged for 38 years. I marvel at their loyalty and dedication. Unfortunately, their numbers are growing smaller, and at a rapid rate. Hopefully your committee will shine a light for them at the end of what has been a very long tunnel.

Probably there are items in the handout that may arouse interest and prompt some questions.

Mr. Chairman, if I may, perhaps we could take the questions. I would like to have about two minutes to conclude at the end.

The Chairman: The way our process really works, sir, is that you give your full submission now, and then we go to questions from the committee. It would be better if you could conclude now.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : To conclude, the first thing I want to say is that there is absolutely no conflict between the proposition to reactivate the Rifles and the aims of the defence minister's policy—or at least the policy directive on the restructuring-the-reserves program. The second thing that I would like to say is that this is a non-partisan issue and is recognized as such in the legislature in Nova Scotia.

The regiment was deactivated in 1965 for no legitimate or recorded reason, with the result that military principle was ignored and the historic connection with the City of Halifax completely disregarded. The regiment can be reactivated now for less than $700,000 and it perhaps couldn't spend 60% of that in the next six months. The city and the province strongly support this project, as do those whose names are shown in our handout.

A political decision is absolutely essential to achieve this. We are confident that the minister will be influenced by your recommendation. We hope for a positive outcome and, hopefully, an announcement to this effect before the end of the year.

Miss Wayne and gentlemen, we thank you very much for the opportunity to address your committee. At the moment, it's a terribly important issue at home and in the minds and in the hearts of the soldiers who have served in this regiment. We sincerely hope that you will aggressively address the problem and make a favourable recommendation.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, gentlemen, for an interesting presentation.

I'll go right to questions from our members and start with the Reform Party and Mr. Goldring for 10 minutes.

• 0940

Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your presentation, gentlemen. I have a couple of questions. I'll start with the first one, which is about the estimate for reactivation of under $700,000. The estimate calls for 11 jeep-like vehicles. From my own experience of pricing a Hummer, which is a jeep-like vehicle, I know that they're $100,000 each. Is your price to reactivate simply the price of the vehicles? It also goes on to include accommodation. What is meant by accommodation? Is that accommodation for the vehicles? And if it is, who pays for the soldiers?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I'm glad you raised this question, because figures lie and liars figure, so we got the estimates from the Department of National Defence. I have them here. To answer your question on the vehicles, there are 11 vehicles, 10 of them at $18,000 each and 1 at $27,000.

Mr. Peter Goldring: These are military vehicles?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : These are off-road vehicles. They're quoted with a name that doesn't mean anything to me: LUVWs and LSVWs. So I don't feel badly about that figure at all. I'm delighted that it's that low, because it keeps our bill low. These figures are from headquarters, Land Force Atlantic Area.

Mr. Peter Goldring: It certainly wouldn't be a Hummer and it certainly wouldn't be heavy-duty. Having purchased heavy-duty vehicles before, I know that $18,000 is an amazing figure.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I agree. I think they're a jeep-like sort of vehicle, which is what we asked for. We said they could give us a jeep-like vehicle with a wireless set in it and we could reactivate the Halifax Rifles.

Mr. Peter Goldring: So they would be just light-duty—maybe civilian—vehicles.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I don't know what they are. That's the military nomenclature that they show here. I'm not sure what the vehicle is. I don't know what it looks like.

Mr. Peter Goldring: I'm trying to understand. If it's for reconnaissance, I have difficulty figuring how an $18,000 vehicle would be suitable for off-road use. That sounds to me like an economical on-road vehicle.

However, there is the other question about who will be paying for the wages of the soldiers themselves.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : That's all included. The salaries come to $332,000. The annual O and M—that's operation and maintenance—comes to $106,000, for a total recurring cost of $439,000.

In capital costs, the vehicles come to $207,000, and the infrastructure quoted is $1 million, which is for building a new armoury. To think that is going to build a new armoury for 40 men and 11 vehicles is absurd. We are absolutely convinced that we can rent the accommodation. If the rent is $100,000 a year, which would be excessive, it would still keep our bill down to around $700,000.

Mr. Peter Goldring: How does this fit into the overall military strategic planning for our country? Does this have support from the Armed Forces? Is this a unit that fits in logistically and strategically with overall military planning and projections?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : It depends on whose planning and projections you're talking about.

Mr. Peter Goldring: Our military's.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : The commanders of Land Force Atlantic Area take in the troops in Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. And with the extended coastline in Nova Scotia...I tried to get a figure for this from the fishermen and from the navy and from everybody. I was never able to get a figure, but it amounts to thousands of miles when you talk about the inland base and so on. The mounted police in the area and the regional emergency planning director in Halifax would be delighted to see this kind of a unit in Nova Scotia because it has communications, it has mobility, and it's the kind of thing that can be deployed quickly if we have a disaster or one of these emergencies. It will be manned by people who live in the province and who know the geography of the province.

• 0945

Mr. Peter Goldring: You say you have support from these various groups. Do you have that support in writing, detailing this information, such as what their strategic use would be and how they would fit into the overall military strategic planning for the area? Or is this emergency planning? Is this military strategic planning or is it catastrophe or disaster planning?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I would say it's military planning, from my point of view of being an armed soldier and knowing that there is an imbalance. There are no

[Inaudible—Editor] troops at all in the combat arms make-up in Nova Scotia. Strategically, the forces are imbalanced there as a result of a decision that was taken in 1965 by the study commission.

Mr. Peter Goldring: But could you get support from the military to substantiate your ideas? There must be groups of people who do design and plan and fit in what you feel your requirements are and agree with them or disagree with them. Do you have any dissenters within the military?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Let me explain the difficulty with the military. The military, at the moment, is limited with its planning to within the confines of this restructuring plan. There is no requirement stated in this plan for this kind of unit in Nova Scotia.

Mr. Peter Goldring: But do they not have a wish list or a want list, in which they say “if we had this we would like this”?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : You would have to ask the chief of the defence staff. I can't answer that.

Mr. Peter Goldring: My military background is so far in the past that I'm certainly not up-to-date and don't presume to be, but I would rely on our present-day military to have strategic planning and a wish list, that if they had additional funds they'd like to do this here and this here and this here... Would they put your unit on that wish list?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Perhaps they have. I know not, but what I can say is that the frustration that we had dealing with the military... When I came into the act in the late 1980s, I knew all of the hierarchy on a first-name basis. Every time we went to them, they said, “Sounds great, but this is what we're being told to structure to.” They'd say they'd pass it down to the staff to throw it into the hopper. We went through this frustration for a long time, with some very good friends and very knowledgeable people. I could ask any of them, “Does it make sense?” And they would say, “Yes, but...”

Now, as I say, the lack of flexibility in this particular plan is something to behold. The military planners and the military chiefs can do nothing outside the confines and the limitations of the current restructuring program.

Mr. Peter Goldring: My final question is, if they reactivate your unit, what is the likelihood they'll deactivate another unit? Is this a trade?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : That is a very good question. I'm awfully glad you raised that one because that is the basis of the minister not agreeing so far. He states, in response to practically every letter that's been written to him, that, first, he has no money, and second, if they were going to reactivate this unit, they would have to deactivate either the New Brunswick Hussars or the Prince Edward Island Regiment. Now that seems, to me, to be beyond comprehension when we're talking about 40 soldiers; it seems beyond comprehension that he's going to deactivate another unit.

Consequently, I am in great conflict with the reasons that he quotes. To say that he can't find $1 million is, again, beyond my comprehension, and to say that in order to create this little unit in Nova Scotia they would have to disband another unit...I just can't understand that.

Mr. Peter Goldring: Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Goldring.

General Foster, do you wish to add something?

• 0950

MGen Kendall Foster : In our opinion—or maybe it's my opinion—any study on the militia that we have seen is flawed. Never once have I seen the study which has said, “This is what our militia should be.” Every study that has been made looks at the status quo and says, “How do we cut it?”

This last study on the restructuring of the reserves for the Maritimes says we now have the equivalent of two brigades, we're going to go down to one, and all of the units are going to be looked at according to certain criteria. But the Rifles unit was never considered because it doesn't exist.

[Translation]

The Chairman: I now yield the floor to Mr. Godin of the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Maurice Godin (Châteauguay, BQ): Thank you for your presentation. If I have understood you correctly, you would like your regiment reactivated in the Armed Forces.

[English]

BGen E.A.C. Amy : No—militia, reserve force.

[Translation]

Mr. Maurice Godin: Only the reserve?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Yes, only the reserve—the militia.

Mr. Maurice Godin: Why was the regiment retired in 1965?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Unfortunately, sir, I do not speak French very well.

[English]

Mr. Maurice Godin: You may speak English.

[Translation]

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I am having trouble understanding your question.

Mr. Maurice Godin: You can listen to the interpretation.

[English]

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Oh, we don't have these facilities at Indian Point.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Can you get it all right?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I think so.

An hon. member: General Wayne will straighten that out.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: This is just like when we used to have the council. I was the mayor and the rest were men.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Just bear with us, now.

Just make sure that you have it on the right track.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Don't give her too hard a time.

I thank Madam Wayne. I'm a native of her province.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: You're bloody right.

The Chairman: Sir, are you hearing me now in English? We have translation. Of course, the House committees, like the House itself, operate with two official languages.

Now, back to Monsieur Godin.

[Translation]

Mr. Maurice Godin: I will repeat my question then. When you recommend that your regiment be reactivated, do you mean the reserve only and not the regular force?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : That's correct, sir. Only the militia.

Mr. Maurice Godin: Why was it not considered necessary to keep the regiment in Halifax in 1965?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : That is a good question, sir.

[English]

This, of course, is the crux of the thing. In 1964, the Suttie commission was set up to restructure the militia. The committee chair was a fellow by the name of Mr. Suttie, and the report that flowed from that was the Suttie report.

In the fullness of time, when it was completed, the Halifax Rifles unit was deactivated. We have found no reason recorded as to why that decision was made. There is a sole survivor of that commission. I spoke with him recently and he can't recall precisely the reason the Halifax Rifles unit was selected.

Furthermore, General Gilles Turcot, who was the GOC of Eastern Command at that time, told me that he remembers the Suttie Commission, but that he does not remember either Mr. Suttie or his commission being in Halifax.

• 0955

Now, that is a strange thing. Here is the commanding general and obviously he wasn't consulted. Also, the only surviving member of the commission can't remember why the Halifax Rifles was selected. Now, I can only raise conjecture here. The Halifax Rifles was a tank regiment. It had tanks, and I gather that they considered this to be expensive and difficult training, so, unfortunately, they selected the Halifax Rifles to be put to bed, and they left four infantry battalions, an artillery regiment and a combat engineers squadron. Missing, then, is the armoured regiment that completes the make-up of the combat arms team; when they lost it, the capability within the garrison of Nova Scotia to train as a team was gone.

So to answer your question, no, there's no reason that we can determine. And a copy of the Suttie report that I was able to retrieve from the National Defence College in Toronto does not answer the question. There is no reason given.

The Chairman: Merci, Monsieur Godin.

Now, for the Liberal side, Monsieur Clouthier.

Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Let me preface this first, Generals, by saying I have a personal interest in this. My father-in-law was in the Halifax Rifles—

The Chairman: Conflict of interest?

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: —and once it was shut down he was transferred to Petawawa, and that's where I met my wife. My wife is a self-confessed army brat, and I implore you this morning, General, not to ask for my home phone number from the clerk, because my wife would want me begging—on bended knee, with cap in hand—the defence minister to get this Halifax Rifles Association reactivated.

Your proposal is very laudable. And isn't it almost nostalgic that something that was really been put to bed 33 years ago could be reactivated? Conceptually, I know, you firmly believe in it, but I guess the question that begs an answer at the end of the day is going to be funding. As you know, my riding is Base Petawawa, and I am continually being asked by the military personnel for more money for housing, better pay for the soldiers, and certainly more money for capital investment.

I went through your proposal, and you have all kinds of political and public support, so the question would be, have you given any thought whatsoever to perhaps accessing some funding in a creative fashion? I just don't see it in your proposal. And I know where you're coming from. You say, listen, if the military wants to spend millions of dollars here, there and everywhere, I'm sure they can find some money for us. As the old saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When I'm proposing something, I always like to say, well, listen, they've spent the money over there, whether it's in this committee or another committee...but I guess at the end of the day that's not going to wash with the military people.

Now, is there anything? I know that we have a colleague on this side of the committee who did a tremendous amount of work when they were talking about closing down one of his bases. He got the public involved. He got the province involved. He got the city involved. Has there been any thought given to that?

MGen Kendall Foster : Certainly, the city is involved, but I don't think the city is going to have any ability to raise money for defence. Our association itself will help to fund the unit when it's reactivated, just as we helped the Halifax Rifles Regiment. The army association, over the years, has accumulated over $40,000, through gifts and through people putting in a day's pay every year—plus, with membership fees every year, we have an income of about $3,000. This money is now spent on the cadets and on our scholarships. Our understanding would be that probably half of that money would go to help support but not to pay for soldiers or capital expenditures.

• 1000

Mr. Hec Clouthier: I guess, General, you're reading me loud and clear. The great difficulty that I have, because Base Petawawa's in my riding, is that I'm continually inundated with requests for money. I guess that's what it boils down to at the end of the day.

Perhaps that is why the hierarchy of the military, whether it's the chief of staff or the defence minister—and not just this defence minister but other defence ministers—saying to you, “Well, in order to reactivate, this is going to cost.” I know you've put your proposal forward for $700,000 and $400,000 yearly, but I remember when General Amy was speaking he said it was about $300,000 for the wages and $100,000 for one...but then you have rent and there are always extra costs involved.

I guess that's basically what it's coming down to. The defence budget has been cut each and every year, and we're trying our very best, as you know. In the report we've submitted, we're actually going to be asking for more money for the military to look after the military in its present form. Last week, we also had the merchant mariners looking for money. Everyone's looking for money.

I'm just saying to you gentlemen that I know you want it to be a part and parcel of the forces, but did you ever give any consideration to having it as a symbolic regiment, whereby you could access some funding from the local community?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : May I comment on that?

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Sure.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : To start with, I think that raising money to raise a regiment is really not long for this day and age... I look at our army museum, dying on the vine on Citadel Hill, and we can't raise money to really get it properly established, so I think asking the citizens of Halifax to raise this unit is out of the question.

I would like to make two points, though. To put this in focus, there are 16 city regiments in Canada. Every province, with the exception of the four Atlantic provinces, has at least one.

A voice: That's right.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : And there are absolutely none... When the Halifax Rifles went to bed in 1965, there went the last regiment in all of the four Atlantic provinces in a city after which it was named.

Again, if I may, I would just like to read from the city annex to our brief, in order to focus the committee on what it says:

No Canadian city has had a closer connection to the military nor has been more influenced by it than Halifax, throughout its existence.

No city has been more directly involved in the close support of the Canadian war effort during both world wars.

No city has borne the scars of war more than did Halifax when in 1917 an ammunition ship blew up in its harbour, killing 1,300 citizens outright with another 700 dying of wounds, as well as hundreds of Haligonians who were left sightless or minus limbs. Damage to the city was widespread and practically every building was destroyed in the one-square-mile area which bore the brunt of the blast.

Halifax was the last sight of Canada for the vast majority of the 100,000 Canadian servicemen and women who were killed during the Boer War and World Wars I and II.

So in my view, the case for Halifax is a very special case. And this regiment, which is tied with the city's history, is a special case, special in two respects: firstly, the historic aspect, and secondly, the military void that we have down there now without having an armoured presence in combat arms.

I knew one of your predecessors, Jim Forgie, very well. And Jim Forgie was—

Mr. Hec Clouthier: You're aging yourself. You don't look nearly that old.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Give me 6 months and I'll be able to say, in 19 years, “I'm 100.”

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : But in any event, Jim Forgie used to lose the election every year until they counted the service votes in Petawawa, and then Jim Forgie was back in the House of Commons.

• 1005

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Yes, and he was a good Liberal, too, Mr. O'Brien, and that's why I married into the military.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

BGen E. A. C. Amy : But he certainly would have supported the Halifax Rifles.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: I believe he would have supported base Petawawa first and Halifax Rifles second. Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Clouthier.

Mr. Earle, for the New Democratic Party, for 10 minutes.

Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I'd like to say I'm very pleased to see Major Kendall Foster and Brigadier-General Amy here today.

As Major Foster indicated at the beginning, I am instrumental in getting them before this committee. He wrote me quite some time ago about the Halifax Rifles, I took the matter up with the minister, and of course we got the answer that it wasn't possible. When the committee was discussing its business we saw this as another opportunity to have a good kick at the can.

I feel that both of these gentlemen have presented the case very well. I just want to underscore what was said about the money aspect of it. Far too often, I think, we use money as an excuse for not doing what is right. Everything indicates that this is right for Nova Scotia, for Halifax, and for our country. I think it goes beyond the money to the inspiration it will provide for young people in Halifax, and in the Maritimes as well, to have this regiment reactivated. I would strongly support that.

I would like to hear the gentlemen perhaps talk a bit about what kinds of influences reactivating this regiment may in fact have on the young people in the area and what opportunities it might provide for them.

MGen Kendall Foster : One of the things that interests us is that we support and help to train and pay for the cadets. In Nova Scotia, Halifax is the area with the largest population. Therefore, in Nova Scotia, it is the greatest market for recruiting into the army, the navy or the air force. This means that at the present time there is no path into the armoured corps in the largest market in Nova Scotia. We think we would have a natural place for our cadets to go. First of all, they're in high school and we help to train them in the basic training. Then they could go forward into an armoured regiment and receive their training that way.

And as I said before, in 1951 I think we did exactly what the reserve army was designed to do. We provided a complete troop, which is an officer and 30 men, to go to Germany to serve with the Royal Canadian Dragoons. They did very well. While they went in on a three-year contract, a good many of them stayed in the regular forces afterwards. I think it provides another path.

We were fortunate during our years to have people who loved the regiment and loved working with young people. We were able to take advantage of our capability to carry out weekend exercises. That's what the young people do, and it's a lot better for them to be doing that than other things that are possible.

Mr. Gordon Earle: Thank you.

That certainly indicates to me the benefit that would be available to young people. Plus, the large amount of support that is given to this project by all levels of society in Nova Scotia indicates to me the importance of this particular project. I think the benefits that would spin off from this would far outweigh the minimal amount of cost, relatively speaking, that's involved in reinstituting this particular regiment.

With those remarks, I certainly would support this, and I hope this committee will see fit to do so as well.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Earle. I do note the non-partisan nature, as you gentlemen put it, of the support in your brief, and certainly, as I said earlier, it's because Mr. Earle raised this issue that we're happy to have you here today.

With that, I go now to the Progressive Conservative Party and Mrs. Wayne for 10 minutes.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Like my other colleagues have stated, I'm very pleased that you are here. The question that Gordon asked was one that I had. Back home in Saint John, New Brunswick, as you know, we have an armoury, and we have the HMCS Brunswicker. As well, we have a lot of young people in the cadets. Do you have an armoury in Halifax?

• 1010

MGen Kendall Foster : Yes. It was built in 1900.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: If you were to have the Halifax Rifles back, could they not make use of that building without you having to rent another building?

MGen Kendall Foster : That building is pretty full—

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Is it?

MGen Kendall Foster : —with the Princess Louise Fusiliers.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I see.

MGen Kendall Foster : There's an artillery regiment and the service battalion and so on, but our actual space requirements would be minimal.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: That's right.

MGen Kendall Foster : I think the main requirement is to have a secure area for parking the vehicles and a small administration area.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I see. I just thought it would be a saving within your budget if you were all able to be under the one umbrella, that's all.

I will say this. I know that all of us have concerns and we get calls from everyone with regard to the need for education money, health money and moneys for just about everything. But I am going to say this: the greatest training in the world, if we want to turn our society around, is to get those young people into the cadets. You have a whole lot of them who are lost out there, and I think we, as a committee, Mr. Chairman, should be pushing for more money for defence, because it's cut, cut, cut, and it doesn't matter which department it is. And with us, I think that we have a job to do. It doesn't matter about party politics.

If you look at the positive impact that comes from young men and young women...whether it's in the military, the reserves or the cadets, it's the best thing that can happen to them. They're taught respect. Really, I have to tell you that I see the difference in the young people at home. We've decided back home that we're going to go out and push like blazes to get the kids into the cadets—army, navy and air force. It's the best thing that can happen to them, it truly is. Because we've changed in our society a great deal.

And I have to say this to all you men: it's just about time that all you men started standing up for your rights—never mind the women.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: The women are always fighting for the feminists. Now, you guys get out there and start fighting for the men, I'm tellin' ya—and I'm a woman. It's just about time.

But anyway, I am pleased. I support you fully. I just think that we have to be stronger in coming out with our recommendations for money for defence. It's time. And you brought it before us.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: But Elsie—

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: What, darlin'?

Mr. Hec Clouthier: —in the last election, you guys were cutting the defence budget.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Sweetheart, I'm going to tell you this right now—

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: —they were cutting and I told that to the committee that came before us when I was here all by myself. And as far as I'm concerned, every young man and every young woman who graduates from grade 12 should spend at least one or two years, I have to tell you...and then you're not going to have the problems that you have to pay out today for those who are getting into trouble, because they'll learn respect, by God, and they'll learn the right way of life. I'm all for it, and I don't care what party is in. I have no time for political politics. Just do what's right. The hell with it. Excuse me. That's it.

The Chairman: Thank you. I certainly can very much endorse your strong statement. If I may, I can add my own personal experience. My son was in the RCR cadets in London for five years. Actually, in his last year, he was cadet major and commanded that group. I know it is one of the best things that he has experienced.

As Mrs. Wayne says, I think support for the cadet movement and the Armed Forces of this country in general exists in all parties. And indeed, you gentlemen may know that our report we just tabled called for quite a bit of new spending, focused on what we see as the greatest need right now—the quality of life, the deplorable quality of life in some cases, of our current people in the Canadian Forces. I think it was a very hard-hitting report, which called for significant moneys to be directed to this. We certainly support that.

Gentlemen, we now go to what we call round two of questions. Now we will alternate from the opposition side and the government side for five minutes. We're going to be called to a vote, I suspect, but it may be that we won't have to reconvene if there are no more questions. If there are more questions, we'll reconvene.

• 1015

[Translation]

Mr. Godin, Do you have any questions?

Mr. Maurice Godin: Yes, only one. I feel that it is necessary to speak about costs, money and budgets. Canadians are starting to get tired of paying taxes and are demanding cuts.

Have you thought about the possibility of transferring an existing regiment to Halifax to strike a proper balance? I understand that you were never given an explanation of why it was decided to shut down your regiment rather than spread the cuts across the country.

[English]

BGen E.A.C. Amy : That would be a very interesting exercise, sir. I can't quite imagine transferring the New Brunswick Hussars to Halifax—

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Not on your—

An hon. member: National unity.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : —nor transferring the Prince Edward Island Regiment, say, because those are the only two armoured units left in Atlantic Canada.

[Translation]

Mr. Maurice Godin: I was talking about costs.

[English]

BGen E.A.C. Amy : The question of costs?

[Translation]

Mr. Maurice Godin: Yes, it is essential to talk about what the Armed Forces cost us.

[English]

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I can't answer that last question, because we've never been able to determine why it was dismantled. I suspect that the cost of training a armoured unit may have been... But you must remember that we have now said no tanks. We were going to give them reconnaissance vehicles. So that question of cost, the expense of training a tank regiment, is gone. This is a very simple thing.

But the cost of moving a unit would be a fantastic cost and would far exceed anything that...to transport... And I can't imagine what unit they would transfer. If it was coming from the Maritimes units, from the New Brunswick regiment or the Prince Edward Island regiment, I don't think either of those provinces would look very kindly on the suggestion that we were going to move them into Halifax. And I don't think Halifax would greet it in a very friendly manner.

[Translation]

Mr. Maurice Godin: In concluding, I ask myself whether our children should really have to go into the Armed Forces, particularly in view of everything that has happened over the past two or three years.

[English]

MGen Kendall Foster : If I might add to that, at the present time the 8th New Brunswick Hussars have been reduced in strength, practically to the equivalent of one squadron and some headquarters. The same thing has happened as far at the P.E.I. regiment is concerned. We are proposing that we have a skeleton squadron in Nova Scotia. This would allow, in effect, the backbone for an armoured regiment in the Maritimes made up of these three units, if this was a requirement.

This is not in direct answer to that question, but we see an immediate payback from the reactivation of the Halifax Rifles. Mr. Young, when he was Minister of National Defence, stated to the cabinet that one of the greatest challenges facing Canada today is the protection of its vast coastlines and vast ocean areas from those who would use these areas for the illegal entry of goods or immigrants.

In our discussions with the RCMP, which is responsible for watching the coast, the RCMP said it would welcome us with open arms, because in our weekly training for reconnaissance the main things we would be teaching would be map reading and wireless training. What better way than to look out some of the small coves and isolated areas of Nova Scotia and identify how to get into them, what ones are likely landing places, and where watching places could be set up?

• 1020

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Richardson.

Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to welcome General Amy and thank the members of the Halifax Rifles who have stayed on the sidelines and kept the name of the regiment alive over the years.

We've had a lot of things happen since the study was commissioned. We've had at least two others agree with the revamping of the reserves. We had a major study as a joint committee of the House and Senate in 1994. It undertook possibly the most massive look at the restructuring of the forces itself. It sat for over 14 months, gathering information, listening to witnesses, and visiting NATO facilities and those other activities which, at that time, the regular forces were involved in.

The book that was produced was a rather thick one. Flowing directly from that book, direction was given to the CDS and the deputy minister to proceed to draw up the white paper, which now is the direction the Canadian Armed Forces operate from. It gives specific direction about the reserves, navy, army and air force. It's the one operating manual we have that we can go back to and say, “You're not following it here. You're not following it there. Here is the ceiling: 22,000 or 23,000 reservists.” I think it went up as high as 30,000 because of the large numbers we have in navy, air force and army.

There is a second look being taken by a special committee set up by the minister to again review the reserves, the militia, the navy reserves, the army reserves and the air force reserves. And I can tell you that it wasn't with the outlook of increasing them. It's sad for us to see that, but that's the direction that's been given. We will be hearing that report very soon. It will deal with how the regular force perceives the need for a reserve force. And I can tell you that the credibility is not high.

I can remember taking Perrin Beatty, when he was defence minister and I was the commander of Ontario, to look at the new militia training centre, which was the concept of bringing them all together, where they would have a piece of territory that would be theirs.

You know where the Meaford tank range is. That was the selected site. They did a marvellous job in rebuilding it. It wasn't more than two months after reservists were going there that the regular forces said that it was too damned good for the reserves, closed the gate, said it was no longer a reserves training centre, a militia training centre, and told the reservists they were were going to Petawawa. The ride on the bum from Windsor to Petawawa is not a soft one, and I'll tell you, it didn't go too well. The reserves felt they were raped. That was money designated by Parliament for the reserves training centre.

It goes on and on. I could go into a number of things. This was all in the past four years. Big dollars were designated.

I was on board when the reserve vehicles were coming out of GM. They weren't quite as good as the ones we're getting now for the regular force, but they were to be used to train our reconnaissance people and to retrain some of our infantry on ATC-type of vehicles. It was a multi-purpose vehicle for training for the reserves. Those vehicles never saw the reserves...maybe 12 of them. They were immediately turned over to the regular force, but the budget was allocated. It was, “oh, look at the money we spent on the reserves”, and they never saw them. I could go on.

• 1025

There's another one coming up where... It's just that somewhere along the line, they have to decide whether they want a reserve force as a mobilization base, which I think is strategically a smart idea for any nation to have—a base of mobilization, people who are trained or semi-trained...I could go on. But if we draw down much further, it's going to be without pro-ration.

I don't know, but I think the minister will be receiving—if he hasn't already received it—that very crucial document on the reserves for navy, army and air force. If timing is everything, General, you're coming before the committee when we're looking at a possible drawdown and you're seeking to bring a famous regiment back under the Order of Battle. In all of the years I've been involved with this, I've never seen any decision to bring a unit back under the Order of Battle—and such a good unit as the Halifax Rifles. It seems to mean that militia is going to become smaller all the time. That's what the objective seems to be.

The Chairman: Brief comments, gentlemen, and then we'll go to the next—

Mr. John Richardson: Based on that, I just thought I would give you the background on which you're appearing: a massive drawdown of the reserves.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. We're very aware of what's going on now. There is a perception—and there's no doubt about it—in the militia that there are so few crumbs on the table in the national defence budget that obviously the regular force is going to have first kick at the kitty. It is terrible that we end up in this situation where we have the regular force and the militia at one another's throats, as it were. Maybe they don't think it's there, but I say, in reality and in perception, it is there when you speak to the militia. It's a terribly unfortunate thing, because I think we need both a very well-fed, well-organized and well-trained regular force and the same thing in the militia.

I would like to quote here from General Sir Arthur Currie, who had this to say about the militia after World War I, and, of course, that war was fought by the militia, as was World War II. He said that we must not think of the militia and what it needs from Canada but of Canada and what she needs from the militia.

I think that if more people understood what is being said there and appreciated the reality of that, certainly with what's on the horizon in the way of violence and these disruptive wars and so on that are going on, which are going to go on well into the next century, it seems absolutely ridiculous that we should be cutting down on our forces.

I would like to make one other point. It is the militia, the little soldier standing between these yahoos and yahees waving machetes at one another, that is bearing the brunt of it. The other forces, the navy and the air force, play their roles, but, really, it's the army that is taking a licking, and the soldiers are tired. As you recall, when you spoke to the wives and so on down in Halifax, it's just too much for them. If they don't put dollars into the thing, regardless of what the white paper says... And certainly, having a healthy active force and militia must be part of the white paper. It's just ridiculous that the country thinks it can send its soldiers into these circumstances without the proper training or the time to do the proper training.

I think one of the great things the government could do is to reiterate and make it clearly understood in the public that the purpose for the Armed Forces is to train for and be prepared for war.

• 1030

If that isn't the case, I think the government should say so, and then it can cut back wherever it wants to cut back. But as long as the policy of the forces and the aim of the forces is that, they must put the money into the budget to make damn sure that the soldiers are trained, because it's the politican and the statesman who is going to put the soldier on the battlefield. That's about all I can say about that.

The Chairman: I agree with you. Thank you. We certainly support those sentiments.

Now we'll go to Mr. Earle if he has a question.

Mr. Gordon Earle: It's a comment more than a question.

The Chairman: Okay.

Mr. Gordon Earle: I just want to come back to the point of funding because, comme mon collègue, l'honorable M. Godin, a dit, c'est toujours le coût. I agree that it's always the cost that's considered and that we have to consider the costs. But when considering the cost, I don't think people look at the fact that this cost will also generate input into the economy and will help drive the economy. We don't look at the savings we get by training young people properly so that we don't spend at the other end in treating drug additions and those kinds of crimes that come from that.

Far too often, we just say, “oh, this is the cost”, but we don't look at the fact that, as one person told me years ago, you have to spend money to make money. In regard to the cost of investing in this unit, in our area and in our young people, I think the benefit is going to far outweigh the cost in the long run, because there are spinoff effects. There are going to be the spinoff effects of the money that will be drawn in by tourism when this regiment is featured in various events. There are going to be the savings that come about as this unit will perhaps perform emergency services and so forth. There are going to be all kinds of benefits derived from that cost, so let's not forget that.

Secondly, I just want to draw your attention to this fact. When I was on the pilgrimage in France and Belgium with the First World War veterans, gentlemen between ages of 98 and 102, there were a number of young people there—cadets, reserves—and to watch those young people interact with our veterans and the amount of respect and honour that they showed to these veterans, and the manner in which they conducted themselves...a lot of us could learn a lot from the example of those young people. I can still see the faces of those young people as they addressed these people, the veterans, with respect, calling them “sir”, doing things for them, helping them when they were sitting there in the cold, putting their coats around them and making sure they were looked after.

These are the kinds of things that you learn in the military and through serving with units such as the one these gentlemen want to have reactivated. Let's not forget those kinds of benefits when we examine this issue. Let's not get hung up on less than a million dollars as being an expense.

Even though we may be in the downward mode of cutting back, maybe it's time for us to break out of that mode and do something different. That's basically my comment. If the gentlemen want to comment on that, they can, but I don't have a question as such.

The Chairman: Unless there's a brief comment, I'll go to the next questioner. Thank you very much for that, Mr. Earle.

Monsieur Bertrand.

[Translation]

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

I'm very encouraged by what I'm hearing this morning about the cadet movement. I don't know if you're aware of this, but a couple of months ago the department announced, I believe, $12 million or $15 million of new money for the cadet movement. I also have a few cadets in my riding and I see the good they have done.

But I have just a few quick questions for General Amy. During the Suttie commission in 1964—

BGen E.A.C. Amy : 1964-65.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: —was any other regiment deactivated by that report or was Halifax Rifles the only one?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I can only speak for Nova Scotia, where it was the Halifax Rifles. The reason I remember that is that it was such a peculiar regiment to select out of the combat arms. It was the only one of its kind in the combat arms.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: And you said you were able to read that report?

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Yes. I don't have it here. I got a copy of the report from the library of the staff college in Toronto. I couldn't find one in the archives in Nova Scotia or in the Cambridge military library. We had to go to Toronto. I don't know many people who have ever seen the report.

• 1035

Mr. Robert Bertrand: And you mentioned that there was—I'm just going to use your words here—“no recorded reason for deactivating it”.

Major Foster, from what I understand, you were around at that time. There must have been rumours around why it was deactivated. There's always scuttlebutt.

Voices: Oh, oh.

MGen Kendall Foster : There was a good deal of lobbying and the rest of it. I would not like to say that the... I don't know what the reason was, but I do know that the militia commander at that time was an artilleryman and I think he was determined not to lose an artillery regiment. But that's just my own hearsay. The Rifles unit was actually very active at that time, probably one of the most active, and I'm sure that it cost the most. That may be the reason. You could save the greatest amount of money with the one unit.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: I have a few brief questions. When did your efforts to reactivate the Halifax Rifles start?

MGen Kendall Foster : Well, this is a long story, I guess. The second-last commanding officer, over a period of many years, starting in 1965, was working by himself. I unfortunately left Halifax in 1968 and was away for 20 years. When I came back in 1988, I immediately got back into the army association. I would say that I've been actively working on this on a very concerned basis since 1989-90. The greatest effort our part has been in last 8 or 9 years. We've appeared before the council of the city of Halifax. We've appeared before the legislature. We've talked to every commander of the Land Force Atlantic Area. We've talked to anybody who would listen. I guess you know that for me this is a labour of love.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Maybe just to piggyback on what my colleague from Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke was saying about getting the community involved, through municipal, provincial or other federal departments, I noticed the public support that you're getting. One organization is called the Nova Scotia Millennium Committee. That might be one option that you may look at through this organization. They may have funds.

MGen Kendall Foster : I would point out that there are a great many—other than in Nova Scotia—regiments named after cities and they are not funded from private sources. They are all funded by the Department of National Defence.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: But I wasn't referring to private funding. I was referring to public funding, but through this group here.

The Chairman: Monsieur Bertrand and gentlemen, maybe I can help here. There's a special fund for millennium projects across the country to recognize coming into the new millennium. Each region of the country will have an opportunity to apply for funding. I think this is what my colleague was referring to here. It might be that. Or possibly, even with the heritage department, there may be a way to seek some more funding.

[Translation]

A final question, Mr. Bertrand?

Mr. Robert Bertrand: More of a comment. I simply want to wish you good luck and tell you that I hope your efforts will be successful. Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you.

And of course, as you gentlemen know, Mr. Bertrand is the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of National Defence, so we appreciate those questions.

Do you have any brief comments, sir?

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BGen E.A.C. Amy : In connection with your question about what happened in the Suttie commission, afterwards, if you wish, I can give you the name of the lone survivor of that committee, and I can give you the name of the general officer commanding the eastern command at the time that the Halifax Rifles were put to bed.

If I may, let me say that we've already spoken to the millennium committee, and of course they're in the same boat in trying to get money for the City of Halifax and its 250th birthday.

The Chairman: If I might, as the chair, let me say, though, that I think we are all trying to be helpful. Having come from an 11-year municipal background, frankly—and ask Mrs. Wayne, whose background is much longer than mine—you'll have to be able to sell the City of Halifax on making it, I would think, and making this one of its top priorities. If you could do that, you're certainly going to have more help.

I know Mr. Earle wants to help us here, and then I'm going to go to Mrs. Wayne.

Mr. Gordon Earle: I just want to say one thing. I think the point that's being missed here is that it's not that these municipalities and these other organizations will not be supportive. We have to officially get this regiment reactivated first—

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: That's it.

Mr. Gordon Earle: —and it's the responsibility of the federal government to do that. Once that's done, I'm sure that the municipality and others that have lent their support would come on-stream with whatever funding they can make available. As for applying to the millennium fund, it's the same thing. They're not going to fund something that's non-existent.

The Chairman: Hypothetical. Right.

Let's go to Mrs. Wayne.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I'll be very brief. I heard Major Foster refer to what Doug Young had stated with regard to the Rifles regiment and the Hussars, and I guess this will be an historic day, sir, because I never thought the day would come that I would agree with Doug Young on anything—

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: —but I do agree with him on that, sir. I really do.

I think what we have to look at here is the fact that if you take a look right across this country at the city regiments that are there and then you take a look at what has happened to the Maritime provinces and Newfoundland, that really tells you a story of how the Maritime provinces and Newfoundland are perceived. It doesn't matter who's in power. I've seen it for the last 30 years, and it's very disturbing.

I think we owe it to those people back in the Maritime provinces and Newfoundland to do something for them, I really do, and recognize the role that they have played in the First World War and the Second World War. We can do this by supporting this group and supporting it with the minister and going to the government to see if we can officially activate them and do something for them.

But I will say this to you, sir, I'm looking at all of the Nova Scotia political and public support, and I know that you've gone before the municipal council and other things, but has each one of those councillors—I know the mayor has written—been in touch with the Department of Defence on this or do they just leave it to you to be in touch?

MGen Kendall Foster : Mayor Fitzgerald and his predecessor, Mayor Ducharme, have consistently written to the Minister of National Defence. They have also—

An hon. member: It doesn't do any good.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: No, it doesn't do any good.

MGen Kendall Foster : —discussed it with the Land Force Atlantic commanders many times, and at one time the Land Force Atlantic commanders were optimistic every year that they couldn't be cut any more and that things were going to get better. In 1993, General MacInnis said that things appeared like something could be done, but not before 1995. Unfortunately, when 1995 came around, he reported that things had not turned out the way he had hoped they would.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I would think it would be wiser if Premier MacLellan and Mayor Fitzgerald and Senator Graham and others decided to sit down with two people: one would be your Minister of National Defence, with the deputy minister, and the other would be the Minister of Finance, with his deputy minister. Because they have to see that there's tremendous support there, not just in your community, but in all of the communities in the Maritime provinces and Newfoundland. And when they see that kind of support, they stop, all of a sudden, and take a second look.

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Because I have to tell you, sitting here today with my colleagues from both sides of the House, for whom I have respect... It really hurts for us to sit here and see what has happened. We see it and we feel it more and more. Every day, Mr. Chairman, we see it, and the people back home see it, not only in the military, but in other areas as well. That respect has to come back. And somehow, I think you can put that force together to make that happen. I really do.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mrs. Wayne.

Mr. O'Reilly and Mr. Wood.

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.): Thank you very much for appearing, gentlemen. First of all, I want to ask if the committee could perhaps get a copy of the city commission report.

I take a little bit of exception or whatever you want to call it at you saying that there were only cutbacks in Halifax or on the east coast, because I was a member of the 45th Royal Canadian Artillery Reserve, and it was also cut back and disbanded. And I took exception to the Airborne being disbanded.

There are other areas in rural Canada that were cut back, so you're not alone in that. I agree that with respect to the strength of some of the small cadet corps throughout the small places in all of Canada, the communities are certainly strengthened by them. I can go into my own riding and find some really active cadet corps that take away from the most troubled areas, the areas with the highest suicide rates, all those things. It takes that away from the community. It builds the community. It builds youth.

I think we're certainly dealing with history. What we're trying to do is move forward, and the best way for this committee to move forward is to convince the minister that there has to be a change of direction. Hopefully we can do that.

I just wanted to emphasize that it wasn't just the east coast that was cut by that commission. It was an artillery unit that I was in that was cut, so it wasn't specific to an armoured unit. It was specific to many units, and everyone took the cut at that time. That was in the mid-1960s. I wanted to bring that point forward. It's not just the east coast that was being hammered. Other areas were too.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. Wood.

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): I have to agree with my colleague, Mrs. Wayne. You're not going to get anywhere by writing letters. It's the easiest thing in the world to give lip service and letter service to a project. You have to get these people to the table and you have to start finding out where everybody can cut and what people can provide.

If the City of Halifax really wants to do this, obviously there are some ways in which it could be done.

You've put down $650,000 plus accommodation. There has to be a lot of barracks blocks there, General,

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Yes.

Mr. Bob Wood: And there has to be a way to do this to make sure that they get in there and get it, whether they can give it to you in lieu of taxes or whatever. It's the same for the Nova Scotia House of Assembly: these guys have to come to the table. As Mrs. Wayne said, you have to get these guys to sit down.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : May I respond?

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, of course. I want you to.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : You're quite right. Really, Ken and I said this was the greatest breakthrough we've had—

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : —and we're two individuals down there, with a small group of, shall we say, old duffers like ourselves, and they're getting thinner and thinner on the ground. As an example, I lose paper, and you may have seen me shuffling around today. I had an adjutant at one time who wouldn't give me a piece of paper for fear I'd lose it. He'd say, “No, sir, I'll bring it back.”

An hon. member: John does that.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : We're part of the problem, because this is the only resource we have had. We have been able to go and conjure up interest in, we'll say, the city, and all these people, but, for us, they take it further than that. This is the greatest step we've ever taken. I would love to go right from here and see the minister, but buster, that's not easy. We have written and written and written... The fact that there is not a member from Nova Scotia on the government side of the House hasn't helped any. We don't have that easy access.

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The other thing is that we have written every one of the Nova Scotia Senators. We've had a tremendous response from them, and they all have written the minister, so the minister must really be aware that it's hurting down in Nova Scotia. But having said that, we can't get to the minister. I'm hoping that...

Mr. Bob Wood: I think your first step is to get to Senator Graham. He's the federal—

BGen E.A.C. Amy : I agree with you.

Mr. Bob Wood: You have to sit down and tell him you want to see the minister. You have to get in there and tell him that you want to see this gentleman, because I'm sure it can be worked out. I've done it and it wasn't easy, but we have to get everybody to the table. Everybody has to make some kind of concessions. The city has to pony up some money—whether it's in lieu of taxes or whatever—to help out and make some kind of arrangement.

The military had no intentions of...I'll just give you a quick example. They were closing CFB North Bay and moving it to Winnipeg. They had no intentions of ever not going to Winnipeg. We managed to change their minds just through deliberations, just through coming to the table and putting up cases.

I'm sure, sir, you can do the same thing. If you want something bad enough, it can happen. But you have to get in there. And don't take no for an answer. Just be, if you'll excuse the expression, a pain in the ass, because that's how I did it.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Yes, we're a pain in the ass—

Mr. Bob Wood: That's good, sir.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : —to everybody in Nova Scotia that we talk to now.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Senator Graham is your number one man right now. He is.

The Chairman: I think that's good advice.

Mr. Bob Wood: And if he doesn't do it, listen, you have the press that you can go do.

The Chairman: The least that he can do is get you an interview with the minister.

Mr. Bob Wood: He can get you in there.

BGen E.A.C. Amy : Quite frankly, I think the biggest contribution that can be made right now to further the goalposts on this is a strong recommendation from this committee. I can't think of a better... It's all very well for us to go and plough the ground that we've been ploughing now. It comes back with the same answer from the Department of National Defence, signed by the minister: no money and we have to disband the unit. It doesn't make any difference who writes that letter, whether it's the premier, the mayor of the city, the millennium committee, or any other of these organizations that we have cornered, that is the answer that comes back.

So the flywheel is on dead centre and it needs to be kicked. From our point of view, the only body to kick it—if you're convinced that this is justifiable—is this committee, because we know you have been successful in altering defence policy, and we think you should do it for this one, because the money is peanuts. We're talking about peanuts.

The Chairman: We're about to adjourn.

Were you through, Mr. Wood?

I'm going to give the last word to Mr. Earle. He's the reason that you're here in the first place. We'll give him the last word and then we'll adjourn. Thank you very much for your presentation.

Mr. Gordon Earle: In agreement with what General Amy has indicated, would it be in order for me to make a motion that this committee support the request that these men have made today?

The Chairman: No, it wouldn't be in order today. The committee has a 24-hour rule in regard to any motion. You can give verbal notice if you wish.

Mr. Gordon Earle: Okay.

The Chairman: Okay. He's given verbal notice.

Then you can prepare the written motion and make sure the members all have it 24 hours prior to the next meeting. Then I'll entertain it as the first item of business at the next meeting, okay?

Mr. Gordon Earle: Okay. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Meeting adjourned.