NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, May 5, 1998

• 1803

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.)): Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to our town hall meeting this evening.

As you're probably aware, the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs is going around the country to visit different bases to talk to the military personnel and also to their spouses on how to improve the quality of life in the military. This is the reason why we are here in Goose Bay this evening. We are here to seek your input.

We have a list of witnesses who want to speak. The first one is Mr. Terry Quinn.

• 1805

Maybe we could start off by introducing the different members on the committee, starting with Mr. Pratt.

Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm David Pratt. I'm the member of Parliament for Nepean—Carleton, just outside Ottawa. I've been a member of the defence committee since last September, and I was elected in June 1997.

Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): I'm Hec Clouthier, member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, which encompasses CFB Petawawa.

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): I'm Judi Longfield. I'm the Liberal member from Whitby—Ajax, which is just east of Metropolitan Toronto, and I've been on the committee since September 1997.

Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien (Labrador, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to introduce myself this time. I'm Lawrence O'Brien; most of you may know me.

A voice: I know you.

Mr. Lawrence O'Brien: You know me? There we go.

I'm not a regular member of the committee, but I am for the purposes of this trip right here in Goose Bay.

Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): I'm Art Hanger, Reform Party defence critic, and my riding is Calgary Northeast.

Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): I'm Leon Benoit, member of Parliament for Lakeland constituency in Alberta. Cold Lake is in that constituency. I'm also deputy Reform defence critic.

Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): I'm David Price, Progressive Conservative member from Compton—Stanstead, and defence critic.

[Translation]

Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): My name is Ghislain Lebel, and I am the MP for Chambly, on the South shore of Montreal.

[English]

The Chairman: And I'm Robert Bertrand. My riding is Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle and I chair SCONDVA.

As I said, we have 11 witnesses, and if there are other people who want to make presentations, we would ask you to go see Michel and give your name so he will bring them up and I will know to call on you.

We will start right away with Mr. Terry Quinn, please.

Mr. Terry Quinn (President, Union of National Defence Employees): It's a bit unfortunate I don't have the conveniences of the people who were here earlier, because I would be better prepared sitting, but I guess that's political life.

Anyway, to start off, right now our union is pretty well on its last legs. I am the president, soon to be the past president, because we will be having a new election. It is a first for me to address a committee of such a nature. I find it very ironic that this committee is here now. It's like closing the barn door after all the animals have left. I do hope your committee will do a better job with veterans affairs than you've done with defence, because I feel you've done virtually nothing, and I mean that very strongly.

To go on with the issue at hand, as a union labourer, I look at the circumstances that have been presented to us by the Liberal government, with some by the PC government. It's all come down hand in hand, and you have used us as a guinea pig. We are the guinea pig for all of the bases in this country. I have my own personal feelings on our defence, and they are a bit strong, but I will not bring these to light at this time.

I would like to talk about a few of the comments I heard earlier today from the town and the chamber. The town to me is a little bit two-faced. They're coming out and saying they want the people to stay here, they want them to have their employment, they want this, they want that, but in actual fact they did mention to you they do want other countries to come in here. They don't care how these other countries come in; they want them to come in at our expense, at the expense of the civilian workers on this base, because we have lost our employment.

We have lost our livelihoods, and what are we getting for it? Nothing. Nothing in the line of support from any political party at all. I'm not picking on the Liberals this time; I'm picking on all of you, because you're all responsible for it. Not one of you stood in the House, that we are aware of, and said anything on our behalf. The NDP made a few comments and Lawrence at that time was not able to because of his illness. Whether he would have stood up and defended us in the House the way he did while he was still sick, I can't comment. I don't know. But I feel strongly that he would have done so. That might have gotten him in some trouble and given him a slap on the wrist from his government.

• 1810

To stay with the issue at hand, we have lost many, many people. We have lost much in the line of income. We have lost the true concern of the people in this community.

The people of this community have grown—you've heard this from the speakers who have made presentations—and they made this community grow because they love this community. They want to stay here. They want to enjoy it, but how can we enjoy such an action of this great government of ours. I have said this and I'll say here that I refer to this government as a Communist government because we have a dictator in Ottawa. I don't mind saying that either, but it hurts me to say it.

We have a minister in Ottawa from our province of Newfoundland who runs and hides any time there's controversy. If there's a little bit of controversy, he's nowhere to be found. I think that's just a little bit obvious now with the TAGS issue, although he did come out and state in Gander that he did his goddamn hardest for the TAGS issue.

Well, it's all well and good for him to say that, but if that's the kind of job he does, then it says very little about the rest of the politicians in this country. I do not feel that the rest of the politicians do work the same way he does. He can run and hide until it's convenient or until somebody gives him a kick in the arse—pardon the expression—to come out and say something.

That was quite obvious when we went to Ottawa. We took a delegation to Ottawa to meet with the Minister of Defence. There was me, as union president, the president of the chamber of commerce, and one of the councillors, provincial MHAs, ministers. We met with the minister. I do thank him for that. He did listen to us. A lot of people have the impression that politicians have nothing between the ears. Nothing sank in, so it must have gone in one ear and out the other.

I hope this isn't the case here. But it seems that what the parties are doing and saying about the public service and what they're saying about the defence department itself.... Read between the lines; that's what we're doing.

We are seeing a government in Ottawa now that is crucifying the public service. We know that if a Conservative government went in there, they'd do the same thing. We know that if a Reform government went in there, they'd do the same thing. The NDP is sitting on the fence. This is the way we perceive this. This is the way it's happening to us. We are being crucified.

Why? Because there's a deficit. Okay, there's a deficit, but let's take this deficit in the right direction. If we want to save money—that's the whole concept of the ASD process—get rid of the Senate. The pensioners up there are making their great incomes. They're appointed by the governments in power at the time, but what are they doing? Absolutely nothing. They're only sucking money out of the taxpayers like me and everyone else here.

Do we we want to save money so we can give them a bigger raise and give you people a raise? I think not. But that's the way we feel. That's the way we're being treated.

When we met with Eggleton he said he would take our concerns. There was one thing I was sort of warned about before the meeting, and I'll mention it right here. This needs an inquiry. The ASD process needs an inquiry. It doesn't need to be investigated or reviewed; it needs an inquiry. I know you politicians hate that word. I know that for a fact. But I want to go on record as saying that this is what's required in order to sit this down, shut it off, and not have it happen again.

It's very unfortunate that this community is the guinea pig for such a process, but it happens. And what thanks do we get for it? We can take a 20% or 30% cut in wages. We can lose all our benefits. We can take all our sick time and everything else and we can forget all about that because you're taking it away from us.

This is what we have to put up with. This is our livelihood. We've lost it. We've lost everything. I fail to see what this committee is going to accomplish by coming in here now, because it's over. We've gone too far.

You people should have been in here last year. You should have been here when you formed this ASD process and you knew it was going. You knew this base was going to be nailed to the wall. It's a money-making base, and here we are being crucified. But where were you? “Oh, we have to go to this base or we have to go to this part of the country. It's more important.” But they have nothing along the lines of what we have here.

• 1815

I don't knock the other bases. They deserve all the proper treatment that we deserve here, and I hope for the sake of their situations that they do not go through this process. I really do. A number of people are leaving this community, and the number keeps increasing. Where are they going? They're going to other bases that are going to go through the same process down the road. Is that what we want? I think not.

I know the public servants don't want it, but what do the politicians want? Do the politicians want to take some more, take another strip off me? You've taken one. I can handle it. I'm a big boy; I can handle it. But how many strips do you have to take off me before I become a little boy and I have to humble to what you're doing to me?

I will say this: there's no way I would vote for somebody who lost my job. I say that with Lawrence here, and I don't mind saying it to him. I knew his government wanted my job, so I wouldn't vote for him. Lawrence is a friend of mine. I know him personally. But that doesn't say I'm going to go vote for him, and I say that in all sincerity. Anybody who wants my job is not going to get my vote.

The same thing with the PCs. The PCs came out and said they're going to make the cuts too. You can run as many PC candidates as you want here; you're not getting my support. And I don't mind expressing that to anybody else around who votes in this district. I would say the same thing. Ah, well, we have the diehards. We have these people who don't know the difference and say, “Oh, well, he's a nice guy.” He's a nice guy because his government's going to take your job? I know Lawrence is not like that. He's proven it. But this is the type of government we're dealing with, and this is the process we have to face in the ASD process.

We had a very successful bid. So I've been told. We had people on that committee who were concerned, but these people were not union people. Well, they were union people, but they were not appointed by the union; they were appointed by management.

About three to five years ago we went through a process that came down from Ottawa. They wanted a 25% reduction on this base. Let me tell you, a 25% reduction on this base, on any base, is a nice chunk. What they decided to do was management went to the labour movement and said, “Would you people like to participate in this?” With some negativity, I guess, we did, and the results were phenomenal. We saved more than 25% and we never lost one job. If that had been asked of us in this particular case....

Referring to Eggleton again, he said we could have done that through the in-house bid team. We couldn't do it through the in-house bid team. It wasn't possible.

But to stay with the point, if we had been asked to reduce or save money, then it could have been done through the process and there would have been no jobs lost. There may have been some, but they would have been very minimal, not to the point we are facing right now.

We went through this process, everybody lost their job, and then they had to reapply to get it back at a reduced salary. Is that justice? Is that democracy? I think not. But then again, I'm only a voter; I'm not a politician. I feel very uncomfortable addressing a group of politicians, because of the circumstances involved.

I find this committee a waste of time. I find it very frustrating. I found it even more frustrating earlier, when I was listening to the town and the chamber make their presentations.

You people are members of this committee, but you fail to listen. “Hey, what are we doing tonight after this is over? Are we going for a beer?” I hear someone talking. Someone is talking, but in the meantime, two or three over here, two or three up there, and two or three over there are talking. They don't care what the person is saying. That's the impression that was given.

Is this what this committee's all about? I hope not. If someone is talking, at least give him the courtesy of listening. Don't have another meeting among yourselves or try to find out what's going on later on tonight, what your plans are. If that's the way politicians behave....

• 1820

I've seen it. I watch TV, too, and I see the politicians. When one person is up speaking they get five or six behind them, babbling away, reading newspapers. They couldn't care less.

That's politics. Hey, you guys are doing wonders. That's why we're running the country the way it is now. We're running it in debt, but we have politicians who are making big bucks, sitting back reading newspapers. They don't care what's being said. They don't care. If they keep it up, maybe they'll get a Senate seat.

Maybe that's what I should try to do, get a Senate seat. I don't know what the salary is like or what the requirements are, but I'm sure I can be just as intelligent as—and I won't say the word that springs to mind—some of the people who are there. I know I'm as intelligent, if not more so, than the one we have representing our region.

But it's the great God that put him there, and it's the people of this constituency who kept electing him. That's life. People will learn eventually that there's more to life than a Liberal, Conservative, Reform, or NDP, but then again, maybe they'll learn that it's not that these parties don't mean anything; they're all Communist. Who knows?

Let's get back to the point at hand and how we are going to resolve what has happened here. Can it be overturned? No.

I'm still working here, but I'm leaving. We're going through the process now with Serco, and they're taking over on a gradual basis, which makes sense. Sure they should ease their way in. Sure they should take everything on week by week, over a period of time, until they have full control of the base.

Look, every time they're slow to take something over it's, “Well, we're not ready. We're not sure what we should do here. Gee, guys, can we have another two weeks? Can we have another month?”

This is the takeover process we're going through. What sort of life do the people have who are staying here, working, and who are going to remain working on the base? What sort of life do they have? They have to go through this process and say, “Gee, I wish they'd hurry up and take this place so we can get on with our life.” Then again, on the other side of the fence, you have these people who are working for Serco saying, “Gee, I wish they'd make up their mind and tell us what we're supposed to be doing here, because we don't know.” Nobody wants to make a decision, so they don't know whether they should do this today or that tomorrow or wait another two weeks until somebody says so.

This is what we're facing. The stress people have come up against for this process is unreal. As politicians, maybe you do understand a little bit about stress when it's election day and you don't know if you're going to be elected or not, but that's the only time you feel stress.

Right now, all the people in this community have gone through it. They've been stressed to some degree, some more than others. I have been. As president of the local at the time, it's been very frustrating to try to deal with the problems that these people are coming to me with and that I can't answer, can't resolve. You are the people responsible for it, but they want me to try to give them an answer.

I do what I can to try to give them an answer, and I might even be able to get an answer, but I'm not going to let it sit there. I try and try until I've exhausted everything, and I tell them, listen, there's no difference between talking to a wall and talking to a politician. You get the same result.

This is the pressure the people in this community are under, the people who are working directly for this base. These are union people. They have lost their jobs, lost their livelihoods. Some of them are going to lose their homes.

I'm very proud to say that we haven't lost one life yet—and I do say “yet”. I was expecting at least one or two suicides. It hurts me to say it, but I think this government has practically put the gun to someone's head and pulled the trigger because of what they're doing.

People have had to go home to a wife and kids and say, “No, dear, I didn't get a job offer with Serco.”

“What are we going to do? We're just scraping by now. How are we going to live?”

“I don't know, dear. I guess we'll have to think about it some more and evaluate everything”.

“Oh, we're going to get our package. Oh, great, we're going to get a package. How long is that going to last us?”

“I don't know, dear. By the time the government takes their tax money out of us, and we put so much in this little RRSP and that little nook and cranny, we might be able to survive for another three months. At least we'll survive for three months.”

• 1825

Then what happens? Well, there's always welfare. The government is good for it. Is that what you want? Do you want to put everybody on welfare? That's the indication that was there: the welfare side of it.

But it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. As I said, we met with Eggleton and he said he would personally review this. He did, I guess. He went out of the country a couple of times, but he did review it, so he says. He came back with an offer and said that this was it.

We have our illustrious premier who said, to quote the paper, that if what the minister comes back with is not satisfactory, he will personally go to the Prime Minister. What the minister came back with was not satisfactory, but did he go to the Prime Minister? Oh, no, he's not going to talk to Jean about this. Little Johnny is up there, but maybe one day he'll step aside and I'll become Prime Minister.

Heaven forbid. He can't do very much with the province, so can you imagine what he'll do with the country? That's scary.

Then he has the nerve to say that we should be grateful for what we've got. We should count our lucky stars that we got what we got.

Here's a man who grew up in this community. He knows what this is all about because he came out of Stephenville when the base closed there. I sort of doubt that; I think he was here before that. He came here and went through all this again when the Americans pulled out. He knows what it's all about. He's been there. Yet he shows no compassion whatsoever. None.

Then we have a senator and a federal minister who are doing the same thing. We have a senator who was at our meeting in Ottawa. What did he say? “Art, you can't let this happen. Don't you think you're going to get away with this, because it's not going to work. We've got to do something. We've got to get this better than it is. We can't have this happen to the people in Labrador.”

Here's the same SOB who was responsible for it having the nerve to sit across the table from me. I don't know if somebody nailed my feet down or not, but it was tempting to go across the table and plug him for what he was saying, because he meant nothing in what he said in his words. I'm very serious when I say that. It didn't mean squat.

I'm sure after our meeting was over, he and Art and Freddy went and had a great little laugh about this.

As for Freddy, he came in after we were three-quarters of the way through the meeting, I guess. What did he say? “Oh my God, Art”—

The Chairman: Mr. Quinn, are you almost done your presentation?

Mr. Terry Quinn: I didn't realize there was a time limit, sir.

The Chairman: No, there isn't, but we have quite a few presenters.

Mr. Terry Quinn: I was here at 5 p.m. ready to go until 6 p.m., and I was told to come back at 7 p.m.

The Chairman: We usually hear about 20 minutes for a presentation, and you've gone over 20 minutes. We're into the question period.

Mr. Terry Quinn: Okay, that's fine. I'll leave it at that. It just proves a point that I feel I've made, which is that you don't want to listen. You don't care what the union people have to say. You don't care how this affects these people. When you put a time limit on something, sir, you don't care. Okay? That's fine.

The Chairman: No, if you have other comments to make.... I was just mentioning to you that, as I said, we usually give 20 minutes, but if you have other comments to make, then we'll go to a question period, because I know there are a few MPs who have questions for you.

Mr. Terry Quinn: No, that'll do it, sir. I don't need to be put into a predicament like that. If somebody wants to shut me up, they shut me up. That's fine.

The Chairman: You don't want to answer the questions?

Mr. Terry Quinn: I'll try to answer any questions.

The Chairman: It's just that we would like to have it on record. Could you just go up to the mike?

Mr. Terry Quinn: Oh, I have to stand and take a few shots. Okay, go ahead.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I can assure you that you don't have to take any abuse from me, Mr. Quinn.

Thank you for your presentation. I have a couple of questions for you.

You said that five years ago the government said it wanted 25% in cost cuts. You did that. You met that goal. You said you wanted a chance to do that again. Do you believe you could have matched the reductions that have been made through this process if you'd been given a chance?

Mr. Terry Quinn: Yes, I do strongly believe that, but then again, we would have to know by how much we would have to reduce. If they wanted to reduce by 75%, then it would be a little bit difficult. But if they had given us, say, another 25% reduction, yes, I do feel very strongly that we could have met their criteria.

• 1830

I can give you an example: infrastructure. Take this building, for example. I don't know how much it cost right off the top of my head to put this up. This building is a waste of money. We could have done without this and that would have been a savings.

I asked a similar question of one of the lieutenant-colonels here at the time: If we were putting up a building across the street and it was felt that we didn't need it, could we cancel it and save the money, use it as a savings? He looked at me boldfaced and said, “We're not putting up any new buildings.” I said to him, “This is a hypothetical question.” He said, “We're not putting up any new buildings, so yes, we can.”

Mr. Leon Benoit: You didn't mean you could have provided the services that are being provided under contract for—

Mr. Terry Quinn: Nothing would have changed. Everything would have been the same. We would have provided the service that was required, and in fact all four commanders have told me personally that they were satisfied with the service they were getting and they were more than happy with the way things were going.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Then you said Minister Eggleton said you could have bid through the in-house bid process. But you said you really couldn't. Could you explain that?

Mr. Terry Quinn: I think that's been explained a bit earlier. I wasn't referring to not bidding. I was referring to saving the money. I used the example of 25% to him, and he said, you have the opportunity to save money by the in-house bid team. The in-house bid team was management driven. Management appointed three people. There was a process in place, but the union could not get involved if there were jobs to be lost, and that's common sense to anybody who's been involved in a union. If you're going to lose a job then you want to go out and fight for it and try to keep it. But in this particular case, management appointed people and they served on that committee. They expected the union to come out and say, “We'll close down this shop and this shop, and that'll take away 150 jobs and we'll carry on at the base.” That doesn't work.

Mr. Leon Benoit: But you were asked by management to take part in the bidding process—

Mr. Terry Quinn: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: —and you just decided you couldn't do that.

Mr. Terry Quinn: Like I said earlier, it was because of union policy that if there are jobs to be lost you're not going to be at the table to say, you're going to lose your job, you're going to lose yours, but you can keep yours.

Mr. Leon Benoit: But if there are jobs to be saved by coming up with a successful bid, shouldn't you...? Isn't it your responsibility to be involved?

Mr. Terry Quinn: No. If we are going to save jobs, that's fine. But if we're going to save jobs by losing jobs, that's not why we're there. That's why we don't go there. As an example—

Mr. Leon Benoit: I really have a hard time understanding that. Maybe some jobs would have been lost. I don't know about that. But if you're going to lose fewer than you've lost by not taking part, it seems like a losing position that you took on this.

Mr. Terry Quinn: As an example, say we had a business of 100 people and somebody came in and said, you have to save and we can lose 25 jobs to save it. Who's going to take those 25 people? Are the unions going to sit down and pick or say, I guess you're going out the door? No. That's why we don't get involved, because we cannot be part of the process that says, we'll keep you to move up, but we won't keep you. That's not the way a union works. A union is there to protect all of the workers.

Mr. Leon Benoit: How many of your members have actually gotten jobs with Serco? Roughly what percentage or numbers or—

Mr. Terry Quinn: I'm waiting actually for that figure. It should be out within the next couple of weeks. I couldn't say. I would say there's probably about 60%, and I don't even know if I'm close. Even if it's higher than that, these people have taken jobs at salary losses. So what do they accomplish apart from the fact that they can say “At least I have a bit of income coming in”?

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Price.

Mr. David Price: Thank you, Terry. I won't ask you any questions on the whole thing. I think with what I've gone through here and what I've learned from you and so on I've got a pretty good background on it.

• 1835

But I want to clear something up. You mentioned that we didn't ask anything in the House, but that's not so. I did ask two questions, two days, on ASD directly in reference to here.

There's something else I should make clear, too, and I don't mind putting this on record. You say the NDP was.... They're involved here, and I know they did get involved in the beginning. I asked them to go along with us on those question days. Twice we asked them, and they said, yes, yes, yes, and never did it. So I want to make it clear that we did that.

As well, we had the director of the ASD program before the committee and we did question him on the process. I had ten minutes to question him on it, and I did bring out as much as I possibly could. That is on record. Those answers are there, and available.

Granted, they weren't the answers we wanted to hear. About the only answer we did get out of it is that he did say it wasn't going to happen again this way, which goes to show there are problems with it. It didn't go the right way.

The other one was the mention of SNC-Lavalin. We haven't been able to find anything that they've filed anywhere.

So we have done homework on it, but as I told you in the beginning, the process was too far along for us to actually stop anything. With everything that's happened, I think we did get something out of the minister, thanks to your own member here, who did put a lot of pressure there, and you guys going there, and I think everything all around. It did open up his eyes a certain amount, but obviously there's more to be done on it.

As I said, I really feel you were the guinea pigs here. That's very unfortunate, but being the guinea pigs, hopefully that's going to help out in the others.

Mr. Terry Quinn: With regard to what you were saying about raising questions in the House, we were unaware, through the media, who did raise questions and who didn't. That's the biggest problem.

Mr. David Price: Unfortunately, that's one problem we live with in the House. It depends on what's going on that day. We didn't get days that the media were interested in. If something else comes up that's much more major on that day, you get lost in it.

Mr. Terry Quinn: In an isolated community like this, we do need information like that because of the circumstances involved. Granted, we are in a big country, so it probably wouldn't have come close, but even if the local papers had picked it up....

Mr. David Price: I'll take the blame for that. I probably should have sent the questions out to the local papers here, or sent them directly to you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Quinn, for your presentation.

I do believe you and many others have in fact been under a lot of stress. I believe it is a stressful situation to be in, to try to deliver to those whom you're representing. I can appreciate your comments there. I can't identify totally, perhaps, but I can understand that there is something very significant happening.

I want to clarify another point you made during your presentation. You mentioned some of the members talking while others were making presentations. It's no disrespect to anyone who has made any presentation, but I will converse with my colleague from time to time over other questions to ask when it's his turn to come up. I think it's important that we have that kind of sequence go on, as I believe it does on the other side of the table here. They can answer for themselves, though, as opposed to me doing it for them.

So it's certainly no disrespect to anyone making a presentation. I want that to be clear to everyone. We do take this thing very seriously or we wouldn't be here.

There's a comment you made very close to the beginning of your presentation about the town being somewhat two-faced about their presence, that they really have no concern over what happens to those who deliver the service as opposed to what may happen in the town itself.

Could you elaborate on that for me?

Mr. Terry Quinn: I think you heard in the presentation by Mr. Bowles that what they want to do is market this community. They want to bring in other countries and they want to provide more of a service.

I find nothing wrong with the statement itself, but the problem I have is that this is being done on my back, on me as a public servant. I'm losing my job, as have all the others, and the town has said, well, we want to bring in more people. We want to bring in more. We don't care about these people who have just lost their jobs. We will say we care, but let's bring in more. Let's bring in more. That's why I say there's a two-faced, or two-sided—whatever word you want to use—aspect to what they are saying. They are looking at it on my back and on the backs of all the people who are employed on this base right now.

• 1840

Mr. Art Hanger: What has the relationship been between the town and the union over this whole process? Have they maintained a strong relationship, or has it waned, and now that things are settled down, they're divided?

Mr. Terry Quinn: Well, things are settled down to some extent, but we do have some very strong people in our council. I won't go into the party hats they wear, but the councillors can always be approached. They can be addressed, and they will take a stand, if need be, on issues of concern to the union people.

But right now we are going into a point where there are only going to be some 25 to 30 union people on this base who are public servants. What happens to everyone else I don't know. If there's a union out there beating the bushes to come in and organize the Serco people—and I sure hope so—I wish they would get in really soon. But I would assume these people will then have the same satisfaction or opportunity of addressing the council and having the same reaction from the councillors that we had.

Mr. Art Hanger: Will you be part of those who remain with Serco?

Mr. Terry Quinn: No, I'm not with Serco. I refused a job with Serco. I applied for a corps position and I was successful in getting that, but I refused that as well. I'm taking a transfer to Gagetown, and hopefully I will be able to maintain a better and more sane life than what I've been put through here by this government.

Mr. Art Hanger: You're going to be established in Gagetown?

Mr. Terry Quinn: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: What is the word you hear on ASD there?

Mr. Terry Quinn: The latest word I heard—and I hope it's not a rumour—is that Gagetown has been put on hold. The understanding I have is they are going through a process similar to what we went through with the 25% reduction. They will work together in some sort of joint venture of union, management, and community and beat this ASD process to where it should be: down the tubes.

Mr. Art Hanger: There are a lot of civilian employees in DND. There are other areas.... Moose Jaw has been mentioned. If you were sitting in this afternoon, you probably heard about Moose Jaw. A contractor has already been established to take over that entity. What part do you see yourself playing in that whole issue?

Mr. Terry Quinn: With regard to Moose Jaw?

Mr. Art Hanger: Or any other base.

Mr. Terry Quinn: What we need to do is unite across this country and show this government where we actually do stand, and make them aware that we are the ones who put you people in office.

We can do this. If the people are union people, as they say they are, we can bring this country to its knees if we want to, but we have to do it together.

Mr. Art Hanger: Do you want to?

Mr. Terry Quinn: In this particular case, with what I'm facing now, yes. I want to bring this country right down. I want to make this country know what it's done to me personally, what it's done to the people of this community, and what they're going to do to the people across the country. It's already been stated in Paul Martin's budget that the public service is going to be cut, cut, cut.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes.

Mr. Terry Quinn: Which is what the Liberal government wants to do and what the Reform Party wants to do. What am I supposed to do, sit back and take it? No. I'm not that type of person.

Mr. Art Hanger: No. There are ways of dealing with issues of downsizing.

Mr. Terry Quinn: Sure there are.

Mr. Art Hanger: Every country in the world is going through some form of downsizing, but there are alternatives.

Those are about all the questions I had, Mr. Quinn. Thank you.

• 1845

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Hanger.

Mrs. Longfield.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Mr. Quinn, I have a statement more than a question. When you started, you indicated that you were a friend of Mr. O'Brien. You refer to the fact that he had stood up for you. I think you also said you weren't going to vote for him again.

Mr. Terry Quinn: That's right.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Mr. Quinn, I am so outraged at that comment. When Mr. O'Brien was in the hospital fighting for his life he was sending messages to the minister through members of this committee to fight for your job. For you to stand here and say that you're a friend and that you would not support him, I find that very offensive. I just want you to know that when he was fighting for his very life, his first thought was for the people of this community. I know that to be a fact because I was at a dinner with the minister when a member of this committee, who's not here with us, took the better part of three-quarters of an hour to indicate to the minister his conversation with Mr. O'Brien. I find it very offensive. I don't want a comment. I'm just telling you what I know to be a fact.

Mr. Terry Quinn: I know that, too. I know that's a fact.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: There is no one who is going to represent you or this community better than the man who is sitting here.

Mr. Terry Quinn: I don't dispute that, dear. I don't dispute it at all, but maybe—

Mrs. Judi Longfield: He deserves your support.

Mr. Terry Quinn: No, hang on now. If he is part of a government in this country that wants my job, he's not going to get my support.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Further to that, to respond, you indicated you thought the NDP would do so. This committee has been dealing with ASD since the beginning. The NDP, which had more members than the Conservative Party, chose to not make this committee their priority, and they have not sent a member. So they are not fighting on your behalf and you should know it.

Mr. Terry Quinn: There are things you're saying that you think I don't know. I know what you're saying. I know about Lawrence's predicament. I'm very well aware of that. In fact, I knew it probably before you did.

However, I also am aware of what the NDP party is doing. I'm not an NDP member. I'm not a card-carrying member of any political party. But when a party comes in and expresses its concern to you that they're going to go and fight....

Mr. Price was another person who came in. They actually had the balls to come in and say they were going to—

Mrs. Judi Longfield: So is he.

Mr. Terry Quinn: I don't dispute that. I know what Lawrence has done, but it's his government that's responsible for this. I think Lawrence knows where I'm coming from on this. I have no problem with that part of it. As I said, Lawrence and I, as far as I'm concerned, are friends, but if he is part of a government that wants my job, I won't vote for him, plain and simple.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Judi.

Lawrence.

Mr. Lawrence O'Brien: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank you, Judi, colleagues, and Terry. I have to break away in a minute or two partly because of what you just alluded to. There comes a point in a day when I've generally had enough for what the body can stand, and I'm pretty well at that point right now. When I finish speaking, I'll be leaving. So for those of you who are coming behind, it's not that I don't want to be around—I do—but the doctor says what the orders are and that's the way it is. I can't do anything about that.

Terry, I understand your frustration. You know I do. I lost my job too, as you very well know. I got up on a given morning in this town and jovially went off to work—I was working for the province—only to find on that given day that 23 people were being cut in that department, and I was one of them.

I put on a brave face, not unlike that of all of my friends around here. Around 8.30 a.m. I was let go, and at 11 a.m. my wife called looking for something. I said that I would be home soon as I didn't have a job any more. She didn't believe me. She thought I was kidding, just as I sometimes do, like we all do.

I went home. I went through the grades of my children, who were both teenagers writing exams in that particular week. Their grades were up better than 10% on average.

That was December 11. December 11 is a difficult date for me. It was December 11 for the ASD and December 11 for losing my job.

• 1850

On January 5 I joined the Liberal Party and proceeded to do what I did. It's thanks to the great people of Labrador that I am where I am, and I do feel, as you very well know and as Judi has very well pointed out, that I represent, from a constituency point of view, the best interests of the people of my riding. And I think, Terry, you recognize that.

In terms of the issue, I think, Terry, you brought out something here. You struck a few chords around this table, and I heard it from almost everybody who spoke, and I see it in the eyes of people too. Whether it's agreeing with you in some of the manner in which you spoke or not, the point, I think, is well taken about what we are going through in this exercise, and have gone through at this point and what we're going through.

I know this committee, under the capable leadership of the chairperson and the capable members around this table, has heard loud and clear this evening and today, and will continue to—and I know you will report back accordingly. And as my dear friend, Mr. John O'Reilly, has so eloquently said...he spoke very much so, and not only him, but many others. There are people on their feet in our Liberal caucus—we don't tell much about the caucus, but I can say this much—time and time again in my absence, speaking on behalf of me for your benefit. So it's kind of touching, there's no question.

I remember the day—and I'm going to close on this point—I was in the hospital and it was the day before surgery. George Baker was calling me back and forth; and George and I are pretty close friends and I don't mind saying so. George is a good friend of anybody's, I would guess. He was calling me, and the minister's office called me. The lady who was due to put me to sleep the next morning came in. She was going to do something to my back to keep the pain down, and all that stuff that goes with major surgery. I was in a vicious fight with the minister from the hospital bed. I was into it, but she turned around and said, “Mr. O'Brien, that phone must go right now.” That was the way I went into surgery. Two days after I came out of surgery, as you very well know, I was right back into it again.

It wasn't easy this winter. It was the toughest decision, the toughest issue, I've ever dealt with at the toughest time in my life, and we're still not over this. There is still a lot of tension and a lot of sadness, and I think Colonel Langdon alluded to it this afternoon when he said we're getting on with it but we are a very wounded community. I want to make that point, and thank you, Terry.

With that, I thank the committee and all those here, and I'm leaving.

The Chairman: Mr. Clouthier.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Terry, this is a personal note about Lawrence. I just got elected in June 1997, so I was a rookie member of Parliament. The whip of the party contacted me and said “Hec, I want you to meet with Lawrence O'Brien because you people have something in common.” So I went down to Parliament Hill, I guess it was in August, and I met with Lawrence. His first words were “So you're the little fellow with the big base and I'm the big fellow with the little base.” He said “You should be”—he was a lot bigger then—“so lucky to have CFB Petawawa. I might trade you bases, but only if you can move your base up to my riding, because I love my riding.”

Terry and friends who are here, I'm telling you we are not supposed to tell secrets out of caucus, but believe you me, he was on the phone to myself, Judi, and a few other people saying “Intercede on my behalf.” He phoned me from his bed and his wife took the damn phone away from him.

And, Terry, if you think that what has been said here today is something, that is absolutely nothing compared to the intervention that your member of Parliament made in front of the Liberal caucus when he got back from being sick. He had everyone—everyone—in tears. I'm telling you, I can only hope, Terry, that I can be as good and as loyal a member of Parliament as him. All I'm saying to you people is I know you're upset with the government, and you have every damn right to be upset with the government.

I'm fighting ASD in my riding too, but I'm telling you, one of the reasons why ASD was put out to a vote in Gagetown and CFB Petawawa, my riding, is because of the intervention of your member of Parliament. I was with him personally, with Art Eggleton, and he tore a strip off Eggleton like you wouldn't believe. I said to Art, “Now do you want the same thing to happen to my base?”

• 1855

In all sincerity, I say to you the man got elected too late. The process was already going on. All I'm saying is don't shoot the messenger. You have one tremendous member of Parliament. I know my other colleagues think the same thing. They know what he's been up against. I know it's a personal tragedy for you, Terry, and I have a lot of empathy—not pity, because we don't want any pity here—for you and I have a lot of empathy for the situation you're in, because I know what's going on in my own riding.

That's it, Mr. Chair.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Mr. Quinn, there are no other questions. I just want to thank you for your presentation.

The second witness is Corporal Theresa Ethier.

Corporal Theresa Ethier (Individual Presentation): Good evening. My name is Corporal Theresa Ethier. I'm an RMS clerk employed in the 5 Wing orderly room. Tonight I would like to talk first about dual service couples in the military and the CFHA. I'm married to Corporal Jacques Ethier, who is an MP. This year during our posting season my husband and I were asked for our posting preferences. We gave the following choices: Greenwood, Trenton, Ottawa, Moose Jaw, and Cold Lake. We were not given any of our choices. We were then told we would both be posted to CFB Petawawa. I understand for a promotion in my trade, which is my ultimate goal, I will have to do field duty. I have no problem with this. My only concern is that, first, both my spouse and myself are going to the field. Jacques is going to 2 Field MP Platoon and I'm going to 1 RCR.

After speaking with my warrant officer here in Goose Bay about my concerns for my children's welfare, I was told that my career manager said “They're a dual service couple; they can afford the babysitting.”

The financial end of this posting is not my concern. It's the fact that I have a five-year-old whose first year of school is this year and an 11-year-old who is going to middle school. After taking the air force Flight Plan for Life ground school I thought some consideration was given to the welfare of the family. But is that for a service member or a dual service couple? Is there no consideration of posting one person static with the other field with a dual service couple? If this had occurred we would not even question the posting.

Again, I wish to make it clear that both my husband and myself are willing to do field time, just not simultaneously.

Another point on this is that the career manager I have this year is the same career manager the master corporal admin clerks had last year. I know for a fact that out of three postings of master corporals out of Goose Bay, two members were single members and the third was part of a dual service couple. The only one to leave Goose Bay for a field position was the one who was part of a dual service couple. The career manager stated to this member that “I'm a single parent. If I can do it, anyone can.”

My question to the committee to consider is: one, is this the way for the Canadian Forces to force one of the dual service members to put in their release, or is this a vindictive career manager with no empathy for the situation she has placed on myself, my husband, or my family?

My second topic tonight is the Canadian Forces Housing Agency. First and foremost, I would like to commend the housing in Goose Bay. It's the best PMQ my family has ever had. My point this evening, however, is I'm leaving Goose Bay. It is the CFHA policy to place members on the PMQ waiting list 60 days in advance of their COS state. Obviously, the earlier the COS state, the sooner you get on the PMQ list and the better chance you have of getting a PMQ. At any base in Canada, if a member is told he will not get a PMQ until late in the APS or perhaps the next year, the member has the option of moving on the economy or requesting an imposed restriction. The imposed restriction permits the member to proceed to his new unit, receive free R and Q—rations and quarters—and separation allowance, and then return for his family when accommodations are secured.

• 1900

Moves out of Goose Bay are unrestricted, and imposed restrictions are not permitted due to our isolation location and other administrative complications.

While our actual reporting date may be moved up to 30 days before or after our COS date, personnel leaving Goose Bay must leave with their family and must secure accommodations within 35 days of their arrival at the new unit. If an MQ is not available at that time, the member has no choice but to move out in the community. This is unfair, and a direct result of leaving an isolated post.

I feel strongly that personnel leaving Goose Bay should have a special priority status for receiving an MQ. If the waiting list was ignored for Goose Bay personnel, door-to-door moves would be standard, and interim lodgings and meals would be absolutely minimal. That's saving tens of thousands of dollars for the crown.

To put this suggestion into context, there are 183 personnel leaving Goose Bay this APS, and when considered across the CF, this would have a minimal impact per base.

To add insult to injury, my posting from Goose Bay is at the late COS date of July 30, 1998. I am required until the end, to assist all others in leaving. Because of ASD in my trade, I have a slim chance for an MQ. I realize an MQ is a privilege, not a right, but we here in Goose Bay do not have the same privileges as at other bases. The same rights do not apply to us. We are clearly disadvantaged with regard to getting in an MQ.

I submit to you that personnel leaving Goose Bay who wish to call for an MQ should be given prior consideration. I hope this year—and if not, then next year—this would only mean some 30 persons per year. Surely this can be accommodated as both a significant cost-saving measure and quality of life issue.

I thank you for your interest in my concerns and for providing me with the opportunity to present them to you this evening.

The Chairman: Thank you, Corporal.

I believe somebody wants to ask a question.

Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you, Corporal, for your presentation.

You asked a question that I guess wasn't one you were looking for an answer to, but I'll ask the question back to you. You asked if this posting, with both of you being posted to the field, was a move to try to get you or one of you to put in your release, or something to that effect.

What do you think the answer to that is?

Cpl Theresa Ethier: I would hope it wouldn't be, but I really do believe the Canadian Armed Forces does not want Canadian Armed Forces women to produce children or have a family life. We should have signed a waiver on entrance. They should have put consideration to that.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Mr. Leon Benoit: How many years have you been in?

Cpl Theresa Ethier: Nine years.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I ask that because before the committee we've had several people—and I've had others come to me—who have had a minor injury they've been able to function with when, all of a sudden, just before the 20 years, the magic 20 years, they can't function with it any more, even though nothing has changed. Others are in situations like the one you've expressed, where the postings make it just about impossible for a family to function. They've expressed exactly the same concern you've expressed.

It's something we'll be looking at. It's a very serious problem. If we're going to have people in the military who want families, and if that's deemed to be something that's acceptable in the military, then you have to be able to accommodate reasonably. I'm not saying in all cases, in all ways, but reasonably.

So the question has come up before, and I think it's an important point we have to look at, extremely important.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Pratt.

Mr. David Pratt: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Corporal Ethier, you've referred to a couple of acronyms. I've been sitting through these hearings for quite a few cities, and I've never heard them before. One was “APS” and the other was “COS”. What are they?

• 1905

Cpl Theresa Ethier: Active posting season and change of strength, the date you depart on posting.

Mr. David Pratt: Okay. You learn something new every day in this business.

Just in terms of the general theme of your comments, one of the things we've heard in many cities, and maybe you've heard it before here as well from some of your colleagues, is, “If we'd wanted you to have a family, we would have issued you one.” Have you heard that?

Cpl Theresa Ethier: I've heard that comment also.

I know this year is a very stressful year for the Canadian Armed Forces. It's supposed to be a minimal APS, active posting season, and I know they are limited in where they can collocate two people in the military, this year especially. But my only concern is I'd like to see one of us go field, one go static, meaning a day job, and switch. We can do three years each that way. But I would like to see it enforced that the Canadian Armed Forces women get that opportunity and they're not forced to get out to raise their children.

Mr. David Pratt: Okay, thank you.

Cpl Theresa Ethier: You're welcome.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Pratt.

Mrs. Longfield.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: I have a brief question on this whole business of career managers. How long have you had this current one?

Cpl Theresa Ethier: This year is my first year with this career manager.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Frequently we have people come and refer to them—and not affectionately—as career manglers.

You asked the question, is this the action of a vindictive career manager? I'm most distressed to hear the quotes you attributed to your career manager. This is something this committee has heard almost from the day we started: the inability to sit down and have a meaningful conversation with a career manager and the fact that a career manager does not seem to take your specific needs into consideration.

We do understand the need for posting and the need, as you say, to try to serve the armed forces, but sometimes they go out of their way to make things as uncomfortable as possible, and we certainly need to make recommendations to change that.

Thank you for bringing your concerns to us.

Cpl Theresa Ethier: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Captain Barnes.

Captain Boyd Barnes (Individual Presentation): Hi there. I'm used to talking into a microphone, but I'm usually talking to aircraft, so if my voice cracks a little bit, just ignore it.

I'm a 20-year captain in the forces and I have a couple of beefs about the number of postings we go through and how it affects the family.

In 20 years I've had eight postings. My wife has moved through six of those and hasn't been able to keep a job more than two or three years.

I have a 13-year-old daughter. She's about to start her fifth school. She's asked me this year if I could write to my career manager and ask if I can stay until she finishes high school. That's tough.

With every move we make, of course, comes trying to find a new home. You have a couple of options, as Corporal Ethier alluded to. You can go on a PMQ list and take what's assigned to you in that 60-day timeframe, or you can go on what's called a house-hunting trip. That's something we have as an option.

Basically a house-hunting trip is a five-day trip where you get to go to a place you've never been, find a real estate agent, look at a bunch of homes, select one, negotiate a price, find a mortgage, and find a lawyer you can trust—all in five days. It's not reasonable. It's just not fair.

• 1910

So now you've found a house in that five days and it's time to get on with it. Your home has been packed up and put on a truck. The military expects you to travel 500 kilometres a day for as many days as it takes to get to your new location. All right. You pack the wife and three kids in your Honda Civic in Goose Bay and drive to Comox. You're going to be a blithering idiot by the time you get there.

There are no weekends off. They expect you to travel every day, weekends and everything included, statutory holidays and all that stuff. Okay? Your reimbursement for this is that you get a hotel room every night. You get an allowance for meals, and you get 9.5¢ per kilometre for your fuel. No accommodation is made for breakdowns or for wear and tear on the car, nerves, or insurance if you happen to get into an accident or something like that. If I say it's not enough, they say other government departments don't do that, so why should they?

Then there are those pesky dependants. Those are the things we call dependent spouses and children and those kinds of things. Let's talk about spouses for a bit. My wife, like I said, hasn't been able to keep a job. We've seen the response. They say her husband is with the military; they're looking for someone who's a little more stable. They're looking for someone who's going to be around next year or the year after. So she winds up taking jobs that she really doesn't want.

We're getting better. We started in the past couple of years to see the military actually pay for the résumé now for the spouse. But if you have to travel for a job interview or something like that, you're on your own. We're getting better, but we need to do something else to look after mom there.

Consider the posting allowance. They give us an allowance equivalent to a month's pay. That's to take care of all the nifty little things that go wrong on your move. I don't know why it's equivalent to a month's pay. I haven't been able to figure that out yet, because if you look at what a private or corporal makes in the run of a month compared to what let's say a major or colonel makes in the run of a month, there's a slight difference. The corporal's not exactly bringing home a wheelbarrow full of money.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Capt Boyd Barnes: They're both making the same move. The move from here to Trenton costs the same for a corporal as it does for a colonel. Why isn't the posting allowance something like a grant? Why the heck is it taxable?

There's an anecdote here about a corporal who works for me with respect to the posting allowance. He was on his way here from Moose Jaw in 1995. It was in the same year I moved. The posting allowance after taxes was just enough to cover the blown transmission in his 10-year-old car on his way here. So there's a guy who's not making money and can't afford a good car and that sort of thing. You see where I'm going here.

Look at military housing. Theresa, you got it right that as for housing, Goose Bay has the best PMQs I've ever seen. That's really the case. I'm one of the lucky ones who gets to live in one of the duplexes with a garage, and I happen to really like my PMQ here.

I can't say the same is true of other bases I've been to. In most cases, I think they should have bulldozed them years ago. That's my opinion.

DND has done a lot over the last five to ten years with PMQs. We put new siding, new windows, and insulation in them. The basements still leak, the sewer still comes up, but that's okay.

My point is that when you've got an 800-square-foot shoebox that was built in the 1940s, it doesn't matter what you do to it; it's still an 800-square-foot shoebox here in the 1990s. It's 50 years old, and it should be torn down.

What we need to do is either bulldoze those places, build new ones, or get out of the housing business altogether.

• 1915

Take the money you're putting into fixing up these old wartime houses and give me a real guaranteed home sale program that's not as bureaucratic as the trial going on now. Make low-cost mortgages or something available to people in the military so that if you expect them to be mobile and moving across the country at the drop of a hat every three or four years, then by all means, let's make it easier for those people to secure their own accommodation.

Where was I? Did I miss something? I missed one thing on that move issue. I'm just going to back up to that if I could.

You don't have to drive when you're posted. You have the option of taking your car or truck or whatever your home vehicle is and putting it on the truck with the rest of your furniture and effects. These are all those things that aren't dependants. It goes to your new posting, and then you fly.

What I find unreasonable about this is the 14 days it takes for your furniture and effects to cross the country. When you're at your new location, there's no entitlement to a rental car. You're expected to use the old gumshoes to get around the base, sign in, and get moved into your house. You know what that's like: every five minutes there's something you want to run down to the store to buy. If you rent a car, it's at your own cost.

Thanks very much for you attention. Sorry about the voice cracking at the beginning. I'm a little more comfortable now, and I'll take any questions.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Captain. We have questions from Judi Longfield.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Thank you, Captain. Certainly what you have said validates everything we've heard since we began this set of committee hearings.

There's one point I wanted to ask about. You talked about whether we should perhaps consider whether the military should get out of the housing business. I understand what you're saying about some of the PMQs. How important is it for spouses and families to be co-located with other members of the military?

Capt Boyd Barnes: In my particular case—I'm only going to speak for me—it's not that important. In every case where I've had the opportunity to live in the economy and buy a home, it wasn't important to me. This includes my posting in Europe, where I rented, of course. I rented in the village where there were only three other Canadian families.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Have you been posted or deployed away from your family?

Capt Boyd Barnes: Outside of three- to four-month courses, no.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: So you've always moved with your family, except for the case when your wife couldn't follow because of a job situation. You always sort of travelled as a unit.

Capt Boyd Barnes: Maybe I could put it to you this way: my dependent wife is anything but dependent.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: My dependent husband is anything but dependent. I understand.

Capt Boyd Barnes: We prefer to fit in with the community and be part of the community in which we live. Actually, Goose Bay is an anomaly for us as we're living with military people all around us.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you, Captain. I do have one question I wanted to ask about: travel. If you are sent to Comox, at the other end of the country, how much time are you allotted to actually arrive there?

Capt Boyd Barnes: I would have to do the division, sir, but it's 500 kilometres a day until you get there. The clerks are telling me it's 17 days, non-stop. It's 500 kilometres a day for you and the three kids.

Have I made my point?

Mr. Art Hanger: It's almost like a holiday, isn't it?

Capt Boyd Barnes: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: What's the basic flat rate one would be paid for any travel?

Capt Boyd Barnes: It varies from province to province, sir, but it's basically around 9.5¢ or 10¢ a kilometre.

Mr. Art Hanger: I don't think that would even cover expenses.

Capt Boyd Barnes: Sir, in my pickup truck, it doesn't.

Mr. Art Hanger: No, it wouldn't. Okay, thank you very much, Captain.

• 1920

Capt Boyd Barnes: Okay.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Captain.

Captain Crawley.

Captain Art Crawley (Padre): Mr. Chair and members of SCONDVA, I would like to begin by thanking you for your presence here and providing us with this important forum.

Having been present at this afternoon's session, where we heard presentations by Colonel Langdon and others, as well as at the presentations we've just been hearing, which I fully support, I have no wish to repeat what they've already ably expressed with respect to life at 5 Wing. Instead I'd like to venture, with some hesitation, into an area that is in danger of being overlooked.

In seeking solutions to the problems of Canadian Forces members and their families, it is tempting to look in areas that are easy to quantify, such as the lack of pay raises and quality of housing. As important as it is to recognize these very real dissatisfiers, there is an underlying discontent that cannot wholly be addressed in tangible ways.

So I'd like to urge the committee, as you seek to make recommendations for the improvement of conditions of service and lifestyle, that some of these less concrete considerations should also be the subject of your deliberations, considerations, and recommendations.

I should mention before I go further that I'm the wing chaplain here.

Part of the discontent stems from blows taken to our pride in wearing the uniform during the last five years. The lack of pay raises not only imposes financial hardship on families; it also sends a message to military members that their contribution is not valued highly.

You've heard, I'm sure, in your travels the press coverage of assorted scandals in Somalia and so on. The little recognition of heroic work accomplished by our forces has taken a toll. Though this may have been mitigated somewhat by coverage of military contributions in fighting ice storms and floods, these are not the primary tasks the military undertakes daily and for which there is little public recognition.

Perhaps the most pressing example on this base is the ASD process through which we have been living. ASD and re-engineering has been justified on the grounds that it conforms to sound business principles. When we read articles justifying the process, business words and business values have been introduced forcibly into our workplace. But business values are not the values that attract men and women to serve in uniform, and they're not the values we expect soldiers, sailors, and airmen and airwomen to exemplify in carrying out their duties.

Therefore programs such as ASD are implemented on the basis of business values alone, and we seem surprised when this has an impact on the military ethos. Is it any wonder that confusion and discontent arise when one set of values is expected from the member in the performance of his or her duty while at the same time decision-makers seem to see no need to make reference to these values when business-driven decisions and policies wreak havoc, as in the implementation in wings and bases?

We would do well to be aware of our proximity to the position of Ebenezer Scrooge justifying his actions on the basis of sound business principles, and we would do well to heed the words of Jacob Marley's ghost:

'Business!' cried the Ghost.... 'Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!'

Perhaps I could conclude with one more step into the intangible. A spirit of distrustfulness and criticism seems to lie within all elements of society, not least here. I'd be very surprised if members of this committee were able to tell me they have not heard skepticism expressed with respect to the effectiveness of your own recommendations. I now know that to be a fact; when I wrote this it was a speculation.

However well meaning the leadership may be, there is a deep and abiding distrust of leadership in all forms—political, religious, and military. Notwithstanding the need to find solutions to problems by examining them critically, I cannot help but wonder whether injudicious criticism feeds upon itself and adds to the morale problems rather than helping them.

Recognizing that I am trying to address questions and feelings and leaving more concrete problems in the hands of those who've already addressed them, I ask you again to include in your report those matters that by their very nature are elusive and therefore apt to go unnoticed.

Thank you for your time.

The Chairman: Thank you, Captain.

Mr. Pratt.

Mr. David Pratt: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

• 1925

Chaplain, one of the things that has come up at some of the bases we've been to is the whole issue of recognition by the Canadian public of the work that is done by the Canadian Forces. I can tell you, in my riding it's not such a pressing issue, because half of my constituents were down for a week and maybe more because of the ice storm, and we had army trucks going through the area. We had CF personnel spread out over quite an area in eastern Ontario. So the contribution they make to Canadian society was readily apparent to the people in my riding.

But in some of the bases we've been to, one of the things that has come up is that if you haven't been through an ice storm, or if your constituents haven't been through a process like that, then chances are they won't really have a good appreciation of what the Canadian Forces does in terms of the wide range of its responsibilities, from search and rescue to emergency assistance to humanitarian help—the whole works.

What is your cut on that in terms of your perception of what the Canadian public as a whole appreciates with respect to the forces? I ask that question because in many respects, this committee is a reflection of the Canadian public. We're elected members of the Commons. We're the “Commoners” who go to sit in Parliament, who try to make the decisions.

I must say, from my own perspective, coming in to sit on this committee last September I didn't really have a good grasp of what the Canadian Forces does.

Without that understanding, without that appreciation by the Canadian public, how do you have a good defence policy? How do you create the public will to spend money on defence, to ensure that the people that do our nation's business within our boundaries and outside of the country in terms of the UN and NATO and NORAD and all of that...? If they don't have an appreciation, then how are we going to build up the military from the standpoint of putting more into the budget, ensuring that the people have the right equipment to do the job, and in terms of the whole range of problems we've had expressed to us over the last several months?

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Capt Art Crawley: It seems to me there are two realms in which I suppose what the military does and the good work it does can come to public light. One of those would be whatever efforts the military itself makes. I think by its very nature, it's not an organization that seeks to promote itself in that way. The other is what Parliament and the government does on their behalf. I consider that to be outside of my normal realm, but not outside yours.

Mr. David Pratt: That's one of the things we're trying to grapple with. I think the message we've had amongst the committee members, fed back to us by people, is that somehow or other we have to do a better job of communicating to the Canadian people about what we do. Once we've done that, maybe then we'll be able to get the things we need in terms of ensuring you have the proper pay, and you have the proper housing, and you have benefits that match the needs.

So we're looking for suggestions wherever we can get them in terms of how to get that message across.

Capt Art Crawley: One of the things that I think is a difficult task for this committee, or difficult for any of those who are seeking to lead or to help out with some of the circumstances and the difficulties we're facing, is the distrust. That's part of the burden of the remarks, that there seems to be a distrust of leadership, per se.

The very fact that one is a politician seems to brand one, in some circles—in fact, I would say in a wide range of circles—as being—and forgive me for saying so—a bad guy. I think that's true of almost everyone in a position of power. One of the challenges I guess you would face would be to seek ways of overcoming that. I'm not sure what the solution is.

Mr. David Pratt: It's a difficult problem, and it's one we're trying to deal with.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Pratt.

Mr. Price.

• 1930

Mr. David Price: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Padre, for being here. Usually we do get a chance to question the padre in the afternoon session, but things went on a little long this afternoon.

First of all, how long have you been here on base?

Capt Art Crawley: Coming up to two years this summer.

Mr. David Price: That leads into my next question. What have you seen as far as an increase in counselling you've had to give because of ASD? I think it's probably the main stressor. Have you seen a large increase in that?

Capt Art Crawley: I think it would be fair to say that we've seen.... It's difficult, sometimes, in the counselling, because one assumes there's a connection.

Mr. David Price: Well, maybe not just counselling. I'm saying probably you're more aware than a lot of other people are of the stressors and of the problems and so on. It might not necessarily be counselling; it's just that you're more aware of it.

What kind of increase have you seen in it, roughly—for example, percentage-wise?

Capt Art Crawley: What I was going to say before is that it's difficult to make necessarily a direct connection between the kinds of counselling we're doing—me and the social worker, who unfortunately couldn't be here—and the things that have been going on at the base.

There certainly has been an increase in counselling with respect to marriage difficulties and problems, for instance, but to say that they are a result of the ASD process is a leap I'm not sure I'm prepared to make.

Mr. David Price: Okay. Maybe even related to that, I imagine you get more demands for help in compassionate leave.

Have you served at another base before?

Capt Art Crawley: Yes, I have.

Mr. David Price: If you were to compare it with another base, I'm looking at what might be said, that, well, compassionate leave out of Goose Bay is probably a lot more costly than at most other bases. Do you see that reflected at all here? Would it be possible to say that, that it's limited because of that?

Capt Art Crawley: For compassionate circumstances, it falls within very clear guidelines. There are benefits here in Goose Bay that other bases don't have. There is a compassionate LTA, of which you may or may not be aware, for people here who face a death of an immediate family member, for instance. They're able to fly when someone in Halifax would not be able to do so. Somebody in Halifax would be able to get on a service air flight and get increased priority, but someone here is actually financially assisted to do that because of the difficulty—or the impossibility, in most cases—of going by service air.

Mr. David Price: But you haven't had any problem with it, anybody coming to you with the problems? You've been able to move things through? Because it is something we have heard in places, that compassionate leaves are really a problem, and there's a problem for people to get out.

Capt Art Crawley: Yes, I've experienced those problems in Halifax and Trenton more so than here. As I say, the LTA is a benefit we enjoy here.

I mean, there are always problems. There's always a line at some point, and always some circumstances in which a line—

Mr. David Price: I think you've just answered the question. You said the problem was more in Halifax and Trenton than here.

Capt Art Crawley: Particularly in that since I first came in, the rules that govern service air and who gets on them in compassionate travel on service air has changed to some extent, for the benefit of the member—or not, some may argue. It makes compassionate bookings more difficult, because people are guaranteed service air flights with 48 hours' notice. That guarantee means it's sometimes more difficult to get seats for compassionate circumstances, because often they don't arrive more than 48 hours before an event.

Mr. David Price: Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: Chaplain, I'm pleased to see you here, actually. I want to question you about one of the statements you made toward the end of your presentation, but first I'd like to ask a personal question, if I may.

How long have you been in the military, and why did you join? That's going to lead up to the other question I'm going to ask here.

• 1935

Capt Art Crawley: I've been in the military ten years. I came into contact with the military as a civilian minister in Greenwood. Prior to that time, I had no interest whatsoever in the military. The reasons for joining are a little bit long and convoluted. I don't want to take your time in going into those unless you're really very interested.

Mr. Art Hanger: There are some people who like military life, of course, and you're certainly right in the thick of it. You're going to see just about every side there is to see when it comes to military personnel, as well as the job they do.

You mentioned in your presentation solutions to morale problems, and it's not just pay. You talked about the criticism that was rendered often about military personnel over the events that have taken place, and I suppose one can look over just the last few years and see significant aspects of criticism that have impacted quite negatively on the military.

You talked about the lack of recognition and then you talked about ASD, a re-engineering of the military justified on the basis of business values and its effects on military ethos. The last statement there tells me that you're a thinking man, obviously, to come up with a statement like that. I think the military ethos is a point that really hasn't been addressed. Maybe it's been addressed, but not in the context you have put it here. I'd like you to maybe talk a little bit more about this, the effects that some of these things are having on the military ethos. Where do you see it going? Where do you see the military ethos going?

Capt Art Crawley: One of the things that has come up from time to time in conversation with people—once again, sometimes in general conversation these things are difficult to quantify—is the expression that I joined the military and I wear a uniform because it represents for me some values or some things I believe in, part of which is the willingness to sacrifice life, part of which has to do with the word “duty”. There are all kinds of values associated with the military ethos. When decisions are being made at high levels, which are justified and explained in business terms alone, then it seems to me that it creates confusion in the mind for me and for others. What are the values I'm being asked to represent and espouse when the values that seem to be represented and valued by the organization I joined no longer seem the same. I think that's what I was attempting to convey.

Mr. Art Hanger: In other words, you're saying from what you can glean of the comments you've heard and what you've experienced yourself, a lot of the purpose is disappearing.

Capt Art Crawley: The purpose of the military is disappearing, did you say, sir?

Mr. Art Hanger: The purpose of being a military member is not driven, maybe, by so much purpose as what was initially intended.

Capt Art Crawley: I'm not sure I understand what you're telling me.

Mr. Art Hanger: I think I understand what you're telling me, and that is in the values associated with the military ethos, there's a purpose for being there. There's a purpose for joining, there's a purpose for staying, and you're driven by purpose. From what I understand, you're saying that a lot of this purpose is disappearing and maybe something else has been substituted, such as business values, whatever that means.

Capt Art Crawley: I think there are mixed messages coming down.

Mr. Art Hanger: Sure.

Capt Art Crawley: I think there's still an expectation on the part of the public, and on the part of leadership, and on the part of legislative authorities that the military person who wears a uniform has to represent certain values and is expected to do so. At the same time, it seems that some of the impacts of some of the decisions that are made are not made taking some of those values into consideration. There seems to be a mixed message.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Mr. Clouthier, the padre of our committee.

• 1940

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Padre, would you please hear his confession? He's lying, again.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Hec Clouthier: It is interesting to note that a member of the estimable clergy is appearing before politicians. It gives one food for thought. But having said that, Padre, I'm a recently elected politician. Before that I was a business person.

Before the entire group assembled here starts screaming at me, I will state that in business I like to make money. Having said that, there are two different ways of doing business. One is solely for a bottom line of, at the end of the day, how much money you make. The other way, as you so eloquently put it here this evening, Padre, is the business of working with people. You related it very succinctly to the ASD, alternate service delivery, and it's too damn bad that Mr. Quinn is not here tonight, because I don't believe anyone has put it as succinctly and with such great clarity as you put it tonight.

Coming from the field of business, again, I know you have one of the great shibboleths, Ebenezer Scrooge, but perhaps one of the great business people of the modern era is Andrew Carnegie. I know you've heard about him because I know you do a lot of reading. He was accused many times by other business people of being too kind with the people who were working for him. Carnegie had a famous quote, and I'll try to paraphrase it. He said, take away my people but leave my factories and soon grass will grow on the factory floors, but take away my factories and leave my people and I will build new and better factories with the people.

I believe that is what is transpiring with a lot of this ASD. I personally have spoken against it. I know your local member has screamed and yelled. Jeepers, he's almost on his death bed and would even have one foot in the grave and he'd still be yelling against it.

I believe the majority of the people affected by ASD want to do the job. They realize that perhaps they can't do it in the same aspect they've done before, but they want the opportunity, just the chance, to show they can do it; that they can build bigger and better factories; that they can do just as well as it was done before, given the opportunity.

Padre, and my friends who are here tonight, I believe this committee—perhaps it's too late with Goose Bay and Labrador—is going to hopefully recommend this ASD be slowed down, because I agree with you that the bottom line shouldn't be the almighty dollar. It should be the almighty fellowship that we're supposed to experience with one another. I thank you very much for your intervention this evening.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Captain.

Mr. Al Babin.

Mr. Al Babin (Individual Presentation): Good evening, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. My name is Mr. Al Babin and I'm the wing personnel support programs manager. I'm responsible for all personnel support programs on 5 Wing, excluding CANEX, the family resource centre, and the community council.

I'm a former member of the Canadian Armed Forces, having served 13 years in uniform as a non-commissioned member. My presentation to you will provide insight on a few points that I feel should be brought to the attention of this committee. Should you have any questions, I'd ask that you wait until the end of my presentation.

The parts are as follows: allied impact on PSP in the funding process for PSP; the cost of participation in inter-base regional sports; youth problems; stress on the 5 Wing military community; and the impact of ASD on personnel and per sup programs employees.

All PSP public funding is subject to cost recovery from participating foreign nations here at 5 Wing. Because of the differing social background of each nation and the various national sports associated with those differing backgrounds, some of what I refer to as core sports programs for the CF are being slowly whittled away here. The cost recovery and subsequent approval process has resulted in the closure of three primary PSP facilities here in Goose Bay: the Canadian Forces arena, the curling club, and on September 1, the auto hobby club.

• 1945

I can appreciate the concerns of the allies with regard to paying for facilities that they do not utilize. However, it is imposing a penalty on the CF military posted here. In addition to the effect that the cost-recovery process has on existing facilities, it also impacts our future construction and improvements.

As most of you are aware, the Canadian Forces Personnel Support Agency has announced the commencement of a PSP Infrastructure Get Well program, which will inject $150 million in capital expenditures over the next three years.

Our 5 Wing in Goose Bay is not slotted for any of that money. The main driving factor behind this is the inherent bureaucracy of having three different approval processes that require involvement from the Canadian Forces Personnel Support Agency, the PSP executive committee, base authorities, and in turn, three separate allied nations. As you can well imagine, the staff work, paperwork, and consultation necessary to secure these approvals would be overwhelming to a wing that has been reduced to 25% of its original strength three years ago.

The next issue I'd like to bring to your attention is the cost of participation in inter-base regional sports programs. I am a firm believer in the concept that a fit body leads to a fit mind. To that end, as an organization, the Canadian Forces encourages participation in the CF military sports program.

Here at 5 Wing, we have an active inter-section, intramural program that provides a venue to foster morale, esprit de corps, and camaraderie through friendly competition. However, due to 5 Wing's location, our ability to provide that venue to highly skilled athletes is somewhat limited.

As a wing, our participation in inter-base regional sports is almost non-existent. Although 5 Wing is geographically located in the Atlantic sports region, it participates in the Quebec sports region. The primary reason for this anomaly is that, as a wing, we are able to utilize service air to send our teams to the regionals. This concept would be of benefit if it were not for the unreliability of the scheduled Hercules and the amount of time required away from one's work.

Specifically, it's extremely difficult for a supervisor to allow a subordinate to take seven days off work to participate in a three-day sporting event. In this time of financial restraint and the exorbitant travel costs inherent to Goose Bay, the only means of sending athletes to inter-base regional competitions is by utilizing service air. Simply put, we just don't have the money.

Utilizing commercial means, it would have cost $20,000 in travel funds to send one hockey team to the regionals. This past year, 5 Wing was unable to send their old-timers hockey team to the Quebec regions. There were two reasons: no funds for commercial travel and the cancellation of a service flight that would have resulted in the team members being away from the workplace for a two-week period.

Although regional participation is the responsibility of the sending unit, consideration should be given to having the CF look at providing the funding for all sports programs requiring travel. This will alleviate the need for bases and wings to prioritize their TD funds to allow for participation in what I might stress is a CF-encouraged program. I can assure you that morale was greatly affected by the wing's inability to send their team. That decision to not field the team was rendered in February, and as late as yesterday, I still received comments on that.

The next topic I'd like to speak to you about is youth problems. While there are many programs for adults and young children, the teenagers of 5 Wing are at a major disadvantage. As the father of a 13-year-old, I can say that I speak from experience. As a group, the 5 Wing military community, which includes the military police, social work officers, schools, chaplain, the FRC, community council, and PSP staff, works very closely to help alleviate that problem. However, the biggest stumbling block always seems to be funding.

In this time of financial restraint, it's extremely difficult to secure funding for any dedicated youth program. The CF has publicly pledged its support to the quality of life of CF members and their families. Several initiatives have been undertaken to improve their quality of life, but there has yet to be any dedicated funding for youth programs.

• 1950

The pay-off of the suggested dedicated funding would not only be in improving the quality of life of the service member and their family, but it would also see a reduction in the crime rate in the military housing areas.

During the summer months of 1997 the PSP staff here at 5 Wing introduced a multitude of programs designed to keep the teenagers busy. Over the summer months I was informed by the military police that the crime rate actually dropped. Whether or not it was directly attributable to the PSP programs provided is uncertain; however, I would like to think so.

My next point has to do with stress on the 5 Wing military community. As head of the section that probably has the greatest impact on the quality of life of personnel close to the 5 Wing, one major concern that continuously comes to the forefront is stress and overwork. As you have probably heard in some of the presentations made to you today, the personnel of 5 Wing, both military and civilian, are extremely hardworking and dedicated to their jobs and their communities. You would be hard-pressed to find anyone in a supervisory role not working overtime to ensure that one of the many time lines they are presented with is met.

I can honestly say that the continued pace of change, re-engineering, and downsizing will result in massive burnout of these dedicated people.

I can add that when I joined the CF in 1982, change had commenced with restructuring and downsizing, with the promise that it would be short term. Here we are, 16 years later, and if anything, the pace of change has quickened. It seems that the only thing that is guaranteed in DND is that things will change.

Let me turn to the impact of ASD on personnel. Prior to coming to 5 Wing Goose Bay, I was a member of the personnel support program's implementation team at National Defence Headquarters. PSP implementation was in essence an in-house ASD initiative. The end result was a closure of the physical education and recreation branch and its associated MOCs and classifications, with the conversion of approximately 575 military positions to 500 non-publicly funded positions.

Although this ASD initiative has provided substantial cost savings to the department, it was not without great personal cost. The process of implementation was extremely focused on communication and compensation. However, it still provided for an extremely stressful time for those being affected.

Can you imagine the feeling of knowing today that you're well taken care of with regard to your benefits and pay, that tomorrow you will lose the majority of those benefits, and to add insult to injury you will take a pay cut? Although savings and efficiency were achieved, I must ask at what cost?

The move has begun toward ASD in the CF. Each case must be put under the scrutiny of ASD. But it must be looked at on its individual merits by weighing all the factors, including the cost savings, the efficiencies, and most importantly, the human element.

My final point is with regard to PSP employees. Here at 5 Wing we have eight publicly paid PSP positions, and with the implementation of ASD we will reduce to six. We are also downsizing, even though we are part of an ASD initiative.

The reason I bring the issue of PSP employees to your attention is the lack of benefits we receive while employed here at 5 Wing. First, we must clarify that the wing commander is the employer of record for us, as it is for DND civilian employees and military personnel.

The funds for our positions are downloaded to the Wing fund from the Canadian Forces Personnel Support Agency, which is a unit of ADM Per. Although we are not appointed as civil servants, pursuant to the Public Service Employment Act of Canada, the crown pays our salaries.

The interesting part of this equation is that although we have the same employer, publicly supported PSP employees do not receive the same benefits and allowances as DND civilian employees or CF service members. Specifically, we as PSP employees do not receive the northern environmental allowance, the northern leave travel allowance, access to service air, or the medical travel allowance. It seems quite ironic that our salaries are paid by the same organization, yet the benefit package is completely different. These allowances are a direct result of Treasury Board's isolated post directives.

I can assure you that this issue brings great concern to me with regard to employment equity and is an extremely sensitive point with the other PSP staff here at 5 Wing. The allowances I've indicated would not be an issue on most other bases. However, due to Goose Bay's isolation, they are.

• 1955

In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, I hope I've provided you with some insight on what I feel are some areas of concern here in Goose Bay. My family and I have been in Goose Bay for one year now, and I must admit that we are very pleased with our environment, The people of Labrador and 5 Wing have welcomed us into their community.

I have the privilege of having a very dynamic job that impacts the quality of life of not only those posted here, but also the civilian community. The PSP staff assembled here during the past year have one goal, and that is to improve the quality of life with the resources provided.

I stress the need for continued and hopefully an improved departmental source for those who are posted here to the land of the northern lights. Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Price.

Mr. David Price: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have several questions. First of all, you said you were in the military roughly 13 years?

Mr. Al Babin: Yes, sir.

Mr. David Price: And why did you leave?

Mr. Al Babin: Why did I leave? It's very simple. I did not feel that I could trust or support the bureaucracy or leadership of the Canadian Forces at that time.

Mr. David Price: Okay. What made you come back?

Mr. Al Babin: It's interesting that as a civilian.... When I was in the military I was involved in PSP, and I thought it was a very dynamic and very needed program in the Canadian Forces. As for getting out and working in the civilian sector, the opportunity came to commit to employment with the PSP implementation team, which I did.

At that time I saw what I felt were great things. It was going to stem the bleeding, and our bleeding was the cutting of all the PSP programs.

Well, that has happened. The bleeding has stopped, but it's the age-old express. We have to put some meat on the bones now. I feel it has been a great opportunity to be part of that process and improve the quality of life of military people.

Mr. David Price: Roughly when did your position in the PSP program start? Was it just after you got out of the military that they actually opened—

Mr. Al Babin: Actually it was about eight months after I got out.

Mr. David Price: Okay. And you mentioned deployed.... You're here now. Were you deployed here?

Mr. Al Babin: Prior to coming here I worked in Ottawa, and I applied for a position here.

Mr. David Price: Okay, you applied for a position and...?

Mr. Al Babin: Yes, sir.

Mr. David Price: You're not far away from the military, are you?

Mr. Al Babin: No. The interesting part of it is that sometimes I refer to myself as a longhaired, flat-footed civvy. I can get away with a lot more out of uniform than I can in. That is to the benefit of the person I serve, and my customer, who is the military.

Mr. David Price: Okay, thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, sir.

Mrs. Laverne Suppa.

Mrs. Laverne Suppa (Individual Presentation): I don't have a prepared brief that I want to read. I just have a lot of little points that I'd like to make. First, I'm one of those things on my husband's form that are considered D, F, and E: dependants, furniture, and effects—a nice thing to be lumped in with.

I've been associated with the military for almost 30 years, following my husband around from place to place to place, all vacation spots to which the country sends us.

I've really seen a deterioration in the morale of the people. I see how it has affected my husband. I see how it affects younger people coming into the military.

You know, that's a great raise they gave us in December: 1.47%. Now, how long did it take somebody sitting in Ottawa to work that out? When we did get the raise in December, it was taxed, and then it was only enough to cover the cost of everything else. So we didn't see any difference in our pay once January came around again.

It's kind of like a slap in the face when you see people, you know, generals, etc., getting a $4,000 bonus for their hard work. But what about all the privates and corporals who actually implement the decisions these people make? Nobody gave them a bonus. They gave a 1.47% raise.

Rent goes up every year in the PMQs. The government is our landlord, but they don't give us a raise to cover it. Hydro goes up. Everything is going up, but our salaries are not going up.

We get isolation pay here, approximately $450 a month, but it's taxed. So we clear a little over $200.

• 2000

When you look at MPs, when you get a living expense, you get a non-taxable living expense to help you accommodate the cost of living for your job. Yet when we get sent here our northern allowance is taxed.

Right now when you go to the grocery store you're paying almost $5 for two litres of milk and $4 for a small head of lettuce. It doesn't even.... When people come here with small children, it actually becomes a hardship for some people.

Then there are the taxes. Take somebody who is posted to Alberta. If they come here in August, say, to Newfoundland, which has a 69% rate, they have to pay taxes to the Newfoundland government at the end of the year. So they end up paying a big hunk of money come the tax year.

It would be very nice and beneficial for the military if we had one flat tax rate right across the country so that as we go from province to province, we're not encouraging hardship from move to move. That's just one little thing right there that can really hurt somebody.

There's the cost of getting in and out of Goose Bay. Yes, we do get one LTA a year to help with airfare, but it depends on what part of the country you're going to, whether you can get a seat sale to help cover the cost of your LTA, if you want to go out west. If I'm in another part of the country, I can go to Europe cheaper than I can get from here to Halifax.

So you're posting people here and you're saying, well, we'll give you an LTA, we'll give you $1,100 once a year to help you get out, but forget the rest of the year; you're on your own.

We have a road out here called the Trans-Labrador Highway. I think a goat track in Tibet is probably in better shape half the time than that road is.

Then there's the way they treat some of the younger people. I'm just going to use the example of my daughter. Her husband was away for six months on a re-muster course. They were stationed in Gagetown and he was posted to Petawawa. His posting was taking effect right after he was to arrive there. The military decided they were going to post him right from Chilliwack to Petawawa—no trip home, no nothing.

They had things that had to be arranged: fences taken down, house stuff taken care of, and that. So they said, well, you can take some leave, and we'll pay your airfare as far as Ontario, but then you're on your own.

So he in turn had to pay his airfare, out of his own pocket, to Halifax. My daughter had to drive down and pick him up. Their hotel expense for the night was out of his own pocket.

Then to get from Gagetown back to Petawawa was out of his own pocket, as well, just so he could have a week there to help get things set up for the movers to come in.

You know, it's things like this that make people say, what for, why? It's just not worth it sometimes when you see the hardship.

We were in Gagetown for seven years, and I was a chairperson for fund-raising at the food bank. Let me tell you, a lot of families from the military community use that food bank.

Very high rent is another thing. You go from base to base, and they supposedly set the rates according to the area you live in. When you go to some places, it's $700 a month for a PMQ. You go to another place and it's $350.

So when you're living in a $350...you say, gee, you know, I think I can afford a new car this year. The bumper is falling off the other one. So you buy a new car.

You get posted to another place where the rent is $700. Your taxes go up and everything else, and there's no financial compensation from the military to help make your life a little bit easier.

There are just a lot of little crumb things. Another thing is that when members go on TD, and they have to go away, they get $4 a day for living expenses. I don't know about you people, but $4 a day in TD pay is just...not in this day and age.

It's just a lot of tiny things. With regard to the posting of families, when I was in Gagetown I saw people coming back who had been in Bosnia, and the hardships their families went through.... I worked with the school there, and I'll tell you, there are a lot of screwed-up families out there right now—a lot of them. Their kids have a lot of problems.

Two doors down from me there was a young girl whose husband went away. She put a yellow ribbon on her door, and said, I'll take it off when he comes home. Her husband died over there. He was killed in action. A month later the base finally said, maybe we should go and take the yellow ribbon off that woman's door.

• 2005

It's just so many little things like this. The quality of life is almost a farce. They always say, oh, we have this great quality of life, but when it comes to actually implementing it, it's just like the big bogeyman is chasing it away. It's not really there.

That's all I really want to say. I've said enough already.

The Chairman: Thank you very much. Mr. Hanger has a question for you.

Mr. Art Hanger: Mrs. Suppa, you've been in the military environment for over 30 years or longer?

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: Actually longer. I grew up in the military as a military brat, and then married into it. It was a moment of weakness.

Mr. Art Hanger: I would imagine you've seen a lot of changes.

But you mention here how especially some of the younger members now who are just beginning their careers are treated. Do you see that as a substantial change in attitude toward the younger...?

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: I have two sons-in-law who are both in the military. So I see, and you hear a lot. Where I used to work you'd see a lot of the troops who would come in out of the field for the day. They'd sit and talk about a lot of things.

To put it bluntly, a lot of the time I don't think the higher-ups actually hear, or even want to see, what's going on underneath them. As long as they're sitting in their office in the daytime and implementing all these things, it doesn't matter how it gets implemented, or at what expense, or at what cost.

As long as it's done, then they can get their $4,000 bonus at the end of the year and look good. Again, there's a very big deterioration of the lifestyle.

Mr. Art Hanger: I guess that's what I'm asking you. Compare your life back when you were first married and going through the process with your husband. Obviously things were a lot different at that time from what they are now?

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: Yes, very much so.

I almost feel sorry for my daughters that their husbands are in the military and that this is the life they're...because of the way things are now.

Believe me, I can tell you that I don't think a lot of people stay in the military because they have a great love for it any more. It's a pension at the end of it, and it's also security. At least they know right now that they have a pay cheque coming in every two weeks. It's not a hell of a lot, but it's there.

We don't have good PR for the military, you know. The bad things come out, like one bad little group of people who did something wrong in Somalia. But what about the thousands of other people in this country?

You know, sometimes when my kids go from community to community...we've gone into some communities where we're really welcome and we've gone into other communities where we're really almost treated like dirt, because you're the military. My kids come from school in the daytime because of things that are said to them about their dad's job. You know, he's military, he's.... I have to take my children and tell them what a good person their father is, or what a good person the person next door is, and ignore.... These people are ignorant. They don't know the true facts. You should take pity on them for being so closed-minded about things.

So it's a very hard job nowadays to try to raise a family in the military, because there are just so many pressures coming at you from all sides.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you very much

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Hanger.

Mrs. Longfield.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Mrs. Suppa, I asked one of the previous witnesses about military housing and the importance of being together as military. Could you give me your views on that? You've had 30 years, and probably more than that.

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: At this stage, our last one is going off to university in the fall. I'm getting to the stage now where it doesn't bother me not to be within a military community.

I think certain trades.... I have one son-in-law who's in the RCR, and he's already been told that he's going to be deployed to Bosnia in January. So I think it's very important for those people and young families to be within a military community for the support they get from one another. You know, they hear something on the news, and at least they have a network of other women who are going through the same thing with their husbands, with their children.

So to me it's very important for them to be within a military community. Maybe with some other jobs, not so much.

• 2010

Mrs. Judi Longfield: That's my sense, and yet, not having gone through that myself, I need to ask many people.

You relay having to talk to your children about what they may hear at school. I would think that from time to time, if a spouse is deployed, daddy or mommy being gone for a long period of time must be very difficult for children. I would think if they knew that other children they played with or saw on a daily basis were going through the same thing, they might not feel quite as abandoned, perhaps, by a parent.

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: I never want my children to fully rely on the military community when growing up, because it's important for them to understand there is another life on the other side of the fence. But at the same time, they do need some support from their own—that's the only way to put it—somebody else who understands what they're going through.

Your husband's been gone for five months, the washer's broken, the kids are sick.... You are both parents a lot of the time in a military family. A lot of the time I had to be the mom and the dad. You're posted to the other side the country, your family is all back east or vice versa, hubby is gone for six months, and you have the children, the school, and everything to deal with. It would be nice to know that what your husband is off doing at least had a little bit of value to somebody else.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: Yes, I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. David Pratt: Mr. Chair, I have one question.

Maybe this is an unfair question, but you seem to have so much experience in military life and in how things have developed over the years, I'm just tempted to ask this question. Based on your familiarity with the various branches.... You have a son-in-law in the 1st RCR, and you obviously have some exposure to the air force as well, then, do you?

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: Yes.

Mr. David Pratt: Which arm of the Canadian Forces do you think has the toughest job these days as far as the family situation goes?

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: Both.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. David Pratt: Maybe it's an unfair question.

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: My husband joined the navy.

Mr. David Pratt: So you've had all three then.

Mrs. Laverne Suppa: We lived on an army base for a year, and the air force.... I can't really say that one separate....

To me the air force has it the easiest. There's no doubt about it. They have almost 9 to 5 jobs. I know some people will disagree with it.

The navy are off sailing the wild blue yonder. Take the little incident we had not long ago, with the wives finding out from the media on TV that their husbands were now sailing over to a problem once again in the gulf. It's a nice wake-up morning coffee sort of thing. It really jolts you awake. They are gone a lot.

My husband wasn't out in the field when we were on an army base. He had the 9 to 5 type of job. But a lot of the young army people don't have an easy life at all. I can honestly say probably the army.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Mr. David Pratt: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mrs. Cavelle Barker. She's not here.

Sergeant Joe Buckle.

Sergeant Joe Buckle (Individual Presentation): Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I'm not a speaker, so please bear with me.

The reason I requested to see you.... Actually I was kind of hoping that Chief Bouzane was going to take care of this this afternoon, but as there wasn't time, he asked me to represent my complaint myself.

Presently I'm going through a redress procedure for removal benefits from the last posting. In 1996 I was posted from Trenton to Goose Bay and I had to dispose of my home there. I applied for the guaranteed home sale program, which was announced that spring, and I was accepted, but due to administrative difficulties and delays in the implementation of the program—which is not uncommon for the military—the home wasn't taken over by the GHSP people until November 1996.

• 2015

At that time I was informed by the planning coordinator's office in Ottawa that my application for reimbursement of the mortgage discharge penalty was denied because it was classified as a mortgage interest differential penalty rather than a straight mortgage penalty. According to Treasury Board, mortgage interest differential is not reimbursable.

The amount I claimed was $2,813.11. That's another thing; the straight interest penalty. By my calculations on the rate of interest I was paying at the time the mortgage was discharged, if I had paid the six-month penalty, I would have been entitled to up to $3,261. I was actually asking for a claim of some $447 less than what the maximum entitlement would have been if the wording had been a little different on my mortgage.

After everything was settled, I was waiting for my mortgage discharge papers from my lawyer. In my position of moving traffic here—we are the local administration authority for government removal services—I did a hypothetical calculation of removing my full goods in storage in Trenton. Based on the amount I had in storage, or the estimated weight of what I had in storage, the cost in 1996 to move the goods, according to 1996 tariffs, to Goose Bay and moving back out of here three years later, versus leaving them in Trenton in storage for three years, worked out to government savings of approximately $20,000 for putting my furniture in storage.

Here I am, though, not being allowed a claim for a lousy $2,800 for a mortgage I couldn't carry with me when I was forced into quarters here because I didn't have enough furniture to turn around and get into the local housing market.

When I got all my documents together last March 1997, I put forward my application of redress or grievance. This grievance has gone through a process now for about 14 months. Today, as a matter of fact, I finally got a notice from Ottawa that the file has now gone before the Chief of the Defence Staff, and I should hear shortly as to the final outcome.

Interestingly enough, though, last month I received this file from the office in Ottawa, and throughout this whole file were no references, no indication, that I was given any consideration because I was put into isolation. They were treating me as if I was a normal individual in the Canadian Forces, or, for that matter, as if I was a government employee being moved anywhere else in the country with full moving benefits.

In 1996 there were approximately 15,000 moves within the federal government nationwide, and only 71 of us came here to Goose Bay. I think we need fair and equal treatment.

Sir, that's all I have to say for your consideration.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger, do you have a question?

Mr. Art Hanger: Actually, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness if he has a copy of this process he went through in a form that he could hand in to our committee.

Sgt Joe Buckle: I have the complete file, sir. The file was given to me with a covering letter. With regard to access to information and the confidentiality, that type of thing, I will pass the file to my wing chief warrant officer and he can decide whether or not I can make this available to you. I'm not sure what I can and can't disclose publicly.

Mr. Art Hanger: I wasn't so much looking for the whole file. You're talking about a concern, as you pointed out right at the beginning, about the redress procedure. You weren't satisfied with what you obviously went through. I guess in a nutshell, it's the particular process, and if it's possible to submit that....

Sgt Joe Buckle: I have these briefing notes I made up last night, which I just referred to, discussing the procedures I went through and my different costs and so on. I don't know if this is what you want, sir, but I could give you this.

Mr. Art Hanger: I think it probably explains enough detail there, yes. If you could submit that we would appreciate it.

Sgt Joe Buckle: Okay, sir.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Hanger.

Perhaps you could leave it with the clerk.

A voice: There's no reason you can't give him the whole file.

Sgt Joe Buckle: I'll photocopy this and give it to you in the morning, sir.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Pratt.

Mr. David Pratt: I'm intrigued. You mentioned that your file went to the CDS.

• 2020

Sgt. Joe Buckle: My file has just recently gone to the CDS, sir. It's gone through the chain of command up to the commander of the air force, who supported my position. From there it went to the director of benefits and compensation. The Treasury Board ruling was that because of the wording in the mortgage, the mortgage had an interest differential. It was something I probably would have incurred whether or not I was moving due to military reasons. For that reason, they did not support the redress.

After that the file came back to me. I could then turn around and submit further comments. At that point I brought the file to the CDS for his adjudication. At that point I made the comment that I'm only one of 71 individuals in the whole of the federal government who have had these restrictions imposed on them. This is not equal and fair treatment.

This file is now in front of the CDS. All I have today is that I'll be advised shortly. I don't know when that is going to be; it could be tomorrow or it could be six months from now. It depends when the CDS gets around to seeing the file.

Mr. David Pratt: It just seems terribly bureaucratic to me, Mr. Chairman, that a file like that.... It seems like a relatively routine matter to deal with, but it seems horribly bureaucratic to have it bounced all over the system and end up on the CDS's desk.

Sgt. Joe Buckle: Something that is left within the jurisdiction of an intermediate commander must go up to the top and eventually to the minister's office for final approval. We have a military chain of command that must be followed, even though the intermediaries may not be able to decide on it.

Mr. David Pratt: Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Our next witness is Captain Brian Quick.

[English]

Captain Brian Quick (Individual Presentation): Good evening, ladies and gentleman; Mr. Chair. My name is Captain Brian Quick and I'm the wing personnel administration officer at 5 Wing. I've been here since July 1997. I have 10 years of intense administrative background on which to base my experience here at Goose Bay.

I'm speaking to you this evening as a service member and not in an official capacity. My thoughts are my own, based on my experience here and in the CF in general. This evening I would like to bring the following points to your attention: pay; the attitude of NDHQ towards Goose Bay; spousal employment opportunities; and quality of life versus reality.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am probably the first person to stand before you and say that I am not looking for more pay. I am willing to accept more pay, but pay is not my number one pet peeve. I support the initiatives of the CDS as he endeavours to secure catch-up and cost of living increases, and I fully agree that the public service in general has fallen behind to the point where we have been losing money over the past few years. It is imperative that we catch up. However, as a captain with the responsibilities, duties, and accountability that I have, I do feel adequately compensated.

My next issue is that of the attitude of NDHQ towards Goose Bay. Nothing is easy at 5 Wing. Postings are complicated due to their unrestricted nature; personal problems become service problems; and our limited establishment means that each person has specific responsibilities and skills often unable to be assumed by another person.

So far this year I have been told by DCBA that our unprecedented APS is nothing out of the ordinary and any request to DCBA will be considered in due course. In due course is not good enough for a corporal who is posted to Esquimalt in April when the road is closed and the ferry is not yet in service and he finds himself depending on DCBA approval for car rental expenses while he awaits the shipment of his vehicle to his new unit. This is not good enough.

No one in NDHQ has any idea of what isolation means. Gander is small and expensive, but at least you can travel out of the community. Goose Bay is small and expensive, but there is no easy way to take a sanity break. Sure the Hercules runs to Trenton, but without family in Ontario, such a free flight becomes a $1,000 expense with hotels, meals, car rental, etc.

• 2025

The career shop is no better. It is my opinion that many personnel posted from 5 Wing this summer received the absolute left-overs with regard to their posting preferences. None of my staff is happy. The attitude that Goose Bay is considered an outside-of-Canada posting and a coveted plum—how lucky are we? How lucky are we to have had the Goose Bay experience? If we are so lucky, then why aren't the career managers lining up to come here after their tours at NDHQ?

The 5 Wing of today is not the 5 Wing of 10 years ago. Just ask anybody. We are smaller, faced with more work and fewer amenities. The perks are going with each year. People coming out of Goose Bay deserve a break and should be granted some special consideration for time served at an isolated location. I volunteered to come to 5 Wing and I'm sure I saved the career manager the problem of forcing someone to come here. I came here for the challenge of the job, and I readily accept that challenge. But I could have had an easier life if I had taken a posting elsewhere in Canada. While Goose Bay has its merits, I truly hope that my career manager will offer me something remotely close to what I want as a posting preference when I leave.

Next is my experience with spousal employment opportunities. Leaving Winnipeg to accept this posting, my wife terminated her employment, as the dutiful spouse so often is forced to do. Part of the screening process is financial ability to cope with the loss of income, and we could cope on one salary, but it would be a leaner existence. Two incomes is a reality in today's society, and my family is no different. More importantly, however, is the self-esteem and self-worth aspects of employment for the spouse. Wanting to work, my wife was told flat out by a local company that “we only hire from the valley”. This means they only consider locals, not military spouses.

Similar experiences have been relayed to me by another military spouse. With limited opportunities on base as a result of the ASD process, she applied to employers and waited in vain. With few options, are spouses forced to collect EI or flip burgers?

Finally, I wish to speak of quality of life versus reality. I am a military member serving at an isolated base. I accept the fact that 5 Wing is located in a small community where some businesses still close for lunch and customer service is an absolutely foreign concept. I have resigned myself to the fact that milk costs $3.20 on a good day, and $4.09 when the road closes. I am slowly coming to terms with a civilian community that resents my existence here and thinks ASD was my fault, yet complains that they do not receive the same privileges I do, and expects full access to CANEX.

I no longer am puzzled by why my wife is denied employment in the valley, but jobs on the base are open to all. I don't even question why in 1998, in a community with three post offices, it is impossible to check your mail after work and then get to the other post office in time to pick up a parcel before they close.

Ladies and gentlemen, the lifestyle that you take for granted is only a dream here. Our quality of life is drastically different and is diminishing more as the base becomes smaller. My standard of living and quality of life has slid since we left Winnipeg to come here. While I get paid more and receive a vacation subsidy, it costs more to live here, and more than one trip out is desirable to see family and simply to escape isolation. If it were not for the excellent job I would be a very unhappy camper.

I may add that I am confused here tonight, in that Mr. Quinn is apparently a military member or a dependant, as it was my understanding that this is what tonight was all about. Is this committee about ASD or military personnel?

• 2030

As another example, this presentation tonight and the hour of my life which was graced with his presentation is another example of how we in the military are secondary at 5 Wing. Mr. Quinn's reference to this beautiful yet unnecessary building.... This is my mess, my quality of life, but it is his unnecessary building.

I fully appreciate that nothing can be done about the above. However, I raise the reality of what I call life at Goose to indicate that quality of life is a subjective concept.

Sure, give me a pay raise of $1,000 a month, but I still cannot get to the post office before it closes, and skim milk is still unobtainable on many of my grocery shopping days. What I am looking for is a commitment from NDHQ that Goose Bay is unique and we deserve some special consideration.

Another aspect of quality of life that I feel needs to be brought up is that of dedication and commitment to the service, versus survival. I served in the Air Command headquarters under the stellar leadership of Lieutenant-General DeQuetteville. A true visionary, his pledge to the quality of life still frequently butted heads with the reality of getting the job done. Here in Goose Bay our job revolves around people, and an action on my part results in a direct personal impact on another service member. Never able to get away from work because of the small community in which we live, you are truly on duty 24 and 7. This is the life of an administrator in a small unit, and yes, that's why I love my job.

My beef, however, is the infamous can-do attitude. As a service member, I feel I cannot say no to a request or a tasking. Eight hours at the office is simply not adequate to complete the daily workload, even after prioritizing the work, delegation, and elimination of inefficient processes. The CF is so lean at this point that we have what I call a one-only organization, in which specific responsibilities rest on the shoulders of each service member, and the absence of that individual means the task does not get done.

While working in Air Command headquarters I was “too important” to permit attendance on a French language course each time I asked for it. Guess what? My career manager told me during my last interview with him that I would really have a better chance of promotion if I could just get my French profile. So much for the welfare of subordinates.

Also while working in Air Command headquarters, I got married. And both my general and my colonel read me the riot act about work hours, commitment to my wife, home life is job one, etc. Throw on top of this the requirement to be physically fit, which means going to the gym regularly. All great stuff, but the work keeps coming, and if you do not accept and conquer each task with vim and vigour, you appear not committed or not dedicated.

This is especially disturbing as promotions are so tight. You need to give 110% each day to get that outstanding PER—a performance evaluation review—and hopefully climb to the very top of the merit list and get promoted. This can-do attitude is going to get us all killed. We work hard here in Goose Bay. I worked very hard in Air Command headquarters, and guess what? I predict that I will work very hard in my next posting. Why? Because there is an amazing workload placed upon us with far too few people to do the task.

Something has to give. My concern is that the military will continue to be squeezed and it is going to be hard-working professionals who can no longer keep up the pace, cannot get promoted and lose the drive to get ahead, or simply realize that family is number one and only put in eight hours a day.

I have met some amazing professionals in uniform who tirelessly work toward sometimes fruitless goals because they are asked to do so. Queen and country mean a lot to those of us in uniform. I love my job, my Queen, and the uniform I wear. I simply wish the government would provide us with the support we deserve. Talk of quality of life is pointless when reality rolls over it. Don't tell me to take care of myself and then turn around and give me two new urgent files to staff, ask me about the three overdue projects on my desk and then depart on TD leaving me acting on your behalf. But this is the reality of our world.

• 2035

I want to be part of the CF. I want to progress and have a fulfilling career. I'm willing to work very hard to accomplish this, but I also still want to be married to my wife when I turn 55. I also want to be healthy and happy when I turn 55. My father worked like a son of a bitch; he retired and he's dead. Will I be fit and married and happy when I turn 55 if the pressures of life in the CF continue as per today?

My PERs—as a captain, I've had one normal, three superior, and three outstanding. I think that's pretty darn good, but I'm still number eleven on the merit list, nowhere near close enough for a promotion in my trade. It's not even close. A bomb will have to go off before I get promoted. I've proven myself to my subordinates as a good leader, to my peers and to the chain of command, but there I sit, working like a son of a bitch.

I am privileged to address the committee this evening, and I truly believe that your recommendations will benefit the CF. However, I wish to again leave you with an example of how we are stretched to the limit and how each time a new project pops up, it impacts on us. Your committee and its work is very important, and your visit is very much appreciated by everyone in this room, but do you realize the amount of time that I as one individual have spent in preparing for your visit here today? This is time taken away from my family and away from the sizeable to-do list in my office. Captain Barnes' request for a rent-a-car—that's my office. The reason he doesn't have an answer is because I'm here tonight.

Fortunately, I see this time as an investment in changes down the road that will ultimately benefit us. Choices and consequences are the reality that I, as a typical service member, face each day. There is no fluff in the organization, and every decision impacts somewhere else or on someone else.

In summary, the men and women of 5 Wing Goose Bay deserve a break. I see a greater need for NDHQ to be responsive to our needs and for the career managers to reward our dedication and service while posted to 5 Wing. I have been “quality of lifed” to death. And even the tremendous efforts of General DeQuetteville have not resolved all our problems. What we need are more people to get the job done, fewer interruptions as we try to get the work done, and more support from the Government of Canada overall.

Ladies and gentlemen, I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to address you this evening and I thank you for your attention. I will be more than happy to answer any questions or clarify any points you may have.

The Chairman: Thank you, Captain. I think you've made your points quite clear.

Capt Brian Quick: Thank you, sir.

The Chairman: Mr. Pratt.

Mr. David Pratt: Captain, in Cold Lake someone in a situation similar to yours commented that unless a busload of majors drives off a cliff, he had no opportunity for advancement. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking, and in the situation facing you right now, when could you reasonably expect a promotion?

Capt Brian Quick: That is an easy question, sir. I enrolled in 1988. I'm 33 years old. You know my track record and my captain PERs. I'm a very tired man. I'm number eleven on the merit list. I'm going from my desk to get on a French language course, because the competition is so fierce at the top of the merit list that even if four personnel administration majors were to retire, I would not get that promotion because the competition is so fierce. I need my French. I have my other tickets punched.

My boss, Major Rochette, when I made my plea to him to do French language.... He's a good man. I said this is what I need to progress, and even though it meant my absence from work for ten weeks, he said get yourself on that course. I pleaded for four years in Air Command, home of quality of life for the air force; and if General DeQuetteville only knew the bullshit I was told.

• 2040

To answer your question, it depends on how many vacancies, it depends on how I can improve myself. Obviously I need every single day to be an outstanding service member every year from now to whenever. I need to have my French profile and any other ticket I can punch to make me more competitive. But there have to be vacancies. If all the majors stay where they are, and we have a lot of young majors now.... All the old geezers are gone. You heard about the force reduction program. The old geezers are gone. The guys with 30 years in are gone. My friend is a major. How old is the boy, 33, 34? The guy's 33 years old; he got promoted last year. A lot of friends of mine are in their thirties and they're majors. They are outstanding individuals, they deserve the promotions, and they're going to be in the service a long time, which will benefit us all. Regretfully, it means I'm stagnated.

The short answer to your question, sir, is no time soon.

Mr. David Pratt: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Captain.

Capt Brian Quick: Thank you very much, sir.

The Chairman: Master Corporal Phil Woodhead.

Master Corporal Phil Woodhead (Individual Presentation): Good evening. I'm Phil Woodhead, a military policeman at Goose Bay.

I'm listening to Captain Quick. I have a story I first heard when I first joined when I was 17 back in 1976. An infantry sergeant told me it. It goes like this. We the willing, led by the unknowing, have done so much for so long with so little we are now qualified to do anything with nothing. Today that's even more true.

I talked to my career manager about a month ago and I wanted to know how I was doing on the merit list. The answer was I wasn't. I dropped into the abyss of nowhere. I wanted to know why. I said I have my UN PERs from Yugoslavia, and they're both outstanding, and I had a really good PER coming out of Calgary in 1996. He said the UN PERs don't count; everybody knows they're inflated. So I scratch my head there, getting a little ugly, and my warrant officer was there. I think he was there so I wouldn't eat the phone, because he won't get another one if I eat it. So I said “What you're telling me is if I had stayed back in Canada and done college courses I would have been further ahead than I did serving my country overseas”. The answer was silence. That spoke volumes to me.

In 1993, in my first tour out of Calgary 1 Brigade we had a problem. We were going to meet the wolf, in the form of Serbs, Croatians, and Muslims. But they had a weapon that worked; we didn't. The plastic magazines we were issued were junk, and they had been since the late eighties when the weapon was introduced to the Canadian forces, junk. We put in deficiency reports; everybody I knew of knew they never worked. So we were going up against people who had weapons that did work, and ours were junk. I said this is not going to work. I went downtown in Calgary to a gun store and bought four of my own metal thirty-round magazines. I could have got in trouble for that; it's not issue equipment. But I said to hell with it. I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Voices: Hear, hear.

MCpl Phil Woodhead: So I painted them to make them look plastic, and put them in a ruck bag so you couldn't even see them. In my job over there, I was a crew chief. I had seven people I worked with. I was in command of four jeep teams. We led the parade out of Sarajevo and we were living in a house with no roof and were eaten alive by the sand fleas, either that or I'm sure doing a college course. It was my responsibility to get my seven people and myself, with four jeeps and the four trailers, ahead of the battalion up to a place called Sveti Rok. This was the new place for the battalion.

• 2045

It's my responsibility to get these seven people somewhere up above alive. Most of them are reservists from all across Canada, young kids eighteen and twenty years old. Here was the old man with a load of magazines, and they have the plastic ones. I didn't mean to follow them over there; I met them when I got there. We're driving through the hills, and they're on fire, and I'm thinking this is sort of like a movie, like Platoon or something. The hills had been set on fire by artillery mortar fire.

During many orders groups, where I had to sit with captains and sergeant majors—I was the highest-ranking MP there—we could hear artillery fire, duels between the Croats and the Serbs. And I have this guy in Ottawa telling me that none of this counts. That made me ugly. I'm saying next time I'm going to tell the MP trade they can take their UN—we call them shit nickels—and they can stick and I'll stay back in Canada and do a college course. That way I'll get higher on the merit list and maybe I'll get promoted before I die. But that's not going to happen. I'm sure I'm going to die first, but that's okay. I'm an old soldier, but I'm not going to go easy. I'm going to take a few of them with me.

Mr. O'Brien mentioned something today that I had on my little sheet here. When I was in the embassy for three years, I was in Yugoslavia also from 1989 to 1992, about every six months we did a cost-of-living survey, which is the military dependants, the wives—the External Affairs people were at garden parties while our wives went out and did the work—they went out and priced everything, gas, you name it. That's what should be done here. We did it for External Affairs, and because of that our cost of living, the allowance, the post differential went from level three to level four, because the war started when we were there and it was still going on when we left and it was very hard to get anything because of the embargos and all that, and we received more money from Ottawa because of the state of the country. That should be done here also.

When I came here from Alberta in 1996, I made a mistake. I came here with a truck with a diesel engine in it. In Alberta, as these two gentlemen know, diesel fuel's pretty cheap. We're looking at high-30s maybe, 40, 41; here it's 80¢ a litre. I couldn't afford the dynamite to blow the truck up. Because I had to put fuel in it to drive around the sand dunes, I couldn't afford to. So I still have the truck and it's still 80¢ a litre. Do you see what I'm saying? You come from a place like Alberta, which is God's country, thank you very much, and you come here.

I do like Goose Bay, I did ask to come here, but they need to do something, they need to do something real. No more lip service, they need to say okay, here are the forms, do a cost-of-living survey and we'll do something now. Don't sit in Ottawa saying that's a jammy posting, you're going to love it. Like the captain said, maybe it was ten years ago, but now it's not so much fun.

One last subject I'd like to touch before I leave is the policing of the base. Military police do it now. As of July 1, the RCMP are taking over. I talk to the RCMP on a regular basis, their staff sergeants and their constables and their corporals. They're not coming. If your house gets broken into and it's less than $5,000, you'll get a report number over the phone, and if they can maybe they'll come and look around. It's unlike the military police; we respond to everything. While we're at seventeen people now, come this APS we're going down to eight. We're being sent out to the ramp and that's all we're going to do.

So I think there's going to be a severe morale problem on this base, because if you leave something outside for 30 seconds it's going to be gone. We have been told by the RCMP there are certain elements in the area that are just waiting for us to go up on the ramp, because they know the RCMP can't come here, because they don't have the bodies. They're too busy as it is. They don't have time to police the base, and they're not going to. They've told us that. So I think it's a real mistake on someone's part to slash the military police to the point where we can't provide the service we really want to provide here for the military members, and anyone else who lives in the PMQs. We can't; we've been slashed to the bone and that's the end of it.

That's all I have.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: This policing policy, is it going to be common now for some bases, all bases, what?

MCpl Phil Woodhead: It has happened at other bases. I believe it happened in Kingston, Ontario. That was handed over to the OPP. The job wasn't getting done because when I was in Kingston we were responding to alarms for the OPP because they didn't have enough people either. And apparently they just recently got their PMQs back because no one was happy with the service.

• 2050

In Gagetown, I heard that the same happened. It was given to the RCMP again. But here's the problem with the RCMP. They're a very good police force, but they only have so many people, and they're only going to respond to the really serious incidents. Right? As for the niggling little things that MPs and military persons take as a given, they don't have time for that. They're not coming. They've told me that. They told all the MPs that they were not coming. You'll see them going to and from their houses—they live on the base—but that's it. They'll respond to serious incidents, but other than that, it's not going to happen.

I believe that in Gagetown the MPs are getting back the PMQs because people just aren't happy with the service. And the same thing is going to happen here.

Mr. Art Hanger: I can certainly see the value of having dedicated police officers on the base. I was surprised to hear that the RCMP or the OPP were actually taking over the policing of some bases. I can see that there would be a significant difference.

MCpl Phil Woodhead: Here it's positions, and positions mean money.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes.

MCpl Phil Woodhead: When I first got here in 1996, the MPs were about 32 strong. Last year, we went down to 17. This year we're going down to eight. I'm one of the eight who are going to stay. We're going to do the best we can, but we're going to be out on the ramp. I don't think the PMQ dwellers are going to be happy. I really don't. I don't think the allies are going to be happy either. They just don't know what they're in for yet. But they will know. They're going to find out this winter when half the skidoos have been stolen out of the PMQs.

Mr. Art Hanger: Could you clarify the point of “out on the ramp”? What are you referring to?

MCpl Phil Woodhead: Okay, I'm talking about the flight line. It's where all the fighters are parked. That will be one and only responsibility for the most part. We will be out on the ramp going back and forth for 12 hours and doing whatever needs to be done out on the ramp.

We may respond to some DND buildings, but as for the PMQs, domestic policing is gone. We're not going to be doing it as of July 1.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you.

The Chairman: Sergeant Ron Langevin.

Sergeant Ron Langevin (Individual Presentation): Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Sergeant Ron Langevin. I'm a search and rescue technician by trade, and I'm presently employed as assistant wing chief here at the base.

There were a couple of hard acts to follow, but I'll try.

I would first like to talk about PMQs. I've been in the service for 23 years. I've gone from Gagetown to Trenton to Summerside to Cornwallis to Comox to here, plus I did a tour in Cypress and Germany.

I can tell you that I never bought so much furniture in my life, because no PMQ is the same. When you go from one PMQ to another one. You have to buy new furniture because your last furniture doesn't fit. I also had a problem in my last posting in Comox. I bought modern furniture, and they had to take out the window to bring it in because the doors were too small. We have a problem getting modern furniture in.

We also have some problems with the PMQs on our base. We do have some people whose places have leaks. We have people who had electrical problems that caused their freezers to stop working. As a result, all the meat spoiled in the freezers. They reported it to CFHA. They were told it would take six months to a year before a decision would be made on whether they would get reimbursed. This is unacceptable.

Our military spouses—this happens in most places in Canada—are having hard times getting jobs because they're married to a military person. This is disappointing. It's something that we have to look at all across Canada, I think.

We hear national policies about TDs—temporary duties—and LTAs. But when we look at different agencies within the federal government, the RCMP, Canadian Coast Guard, or whatever, each of them has their own definition of the national policy. I can claim a taxi for $5 without a receipt; a civil servant can do it for $8. I don't know why, but they can get $3 more. Just simple things like that disturb the people in the armed forces.

• 2055

I just came back from Comox, where I did a para recall location, and when I was there my chief from 1 CAD gave us a briefing. He told us that because of policy and restriction in funds, promotions would be affected; i.e., if a person is in the right place and there's a promotion to be had, he will get promoted. However, if he is in the merit listing and he's not in the right place, he will be jumped, which to me is ridiculous.

When military families are posted they're allowed to go on house-hunting trips only if they have a guaranteed mortgage and it's approved and everything by the financial agency. No offence to our civilian counterparts, but they don't have to go through this policy. They can go on a house-hunting trip without approved mortgages and so forth.

One of the things that some of the people say here is that when you go on a house-hunting trip you can't look at your PMQ to see if it's acceptable for you, right? So you have to go on a house-hunting trip and go out on the market and see if you can find it. If you go on a house-hunting trip, you're kind of taken off the PMQ list. Why? I don't know. I guess if you go on house-hunting trips you're not entitled to a PMQ.

These are some of the things that affect most of the people in the armed forces and I think we should look at them and see if we can correct them.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: In your last comment you said if you go on a house-hunting trip you're taken off the PMQ list or you're not permitted to go and look at a PMQ to see if it's substandard or acceptable. Is that a policy?

Sgt Ron Langevin: If you go on a house-hunting trip you're pushed back on the PMQ waiting list. I believe the objective is that they feel you're going to buy or rent, so they'll move another person in who isn't going on a house-hunting trip and they will get the PMQ. However, if you don't rent or buy, you're kind of looking for a place to live out on the civilian market.

Mr. Art Hanger: But is it a policy to be removed from one list? If there's a PMQ and you go and look at it, you say—

Sgt Ron Langevin: I can't give you a 100% definition on that, but I know in the postings I've done over the years, yes, you'll be moved back on the waiting list.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay.

You were posted at Comox. How long were you there?

Sgt Ron Langevin: I was there for five years.

Mr. Art Hanger: And where did you go from there?

Sgt Ron Langevin: I came here, sir.

Mr. Art Hanger: Did you drive across the country?

Sgt Ron Langevin: Yes, I did.

Mr. Art Hanger: I didn't really think it would actually be possible to be posted from one end to the other and have to drive, but I guess here's a man standing in front of me who has had to go through all that. You're paid 500 kilometres a day at 9.5¢ a kilometre?

Sgt Ron Langevin: Yes, sir. And I have a Neon and my son is six foot seven.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes, that would be quite a trip. Thank you.

The Chairman: Master Corporal Wade Walsh.

Master Corporal Wade Walsh (Individual Presentation): Good evening, honourable members and Mr. Chair. I'm not even going to try to keep up with some of these guys.

My name is Wade Walsh, as you just said. I'm a kitchen manager here in Goose Bay, or I was a kitchen manager.

If I may, I'll touch on some points that I and a lot of my friends who are in my rank or slightly lower or slightly higher have discussed. This was a ten-page booklet and we broke it down into eight points that are common.

The biggest one is pay. For my rank, for a sergeant and below, it is pay. We can make light of it, but for a sergeant and below, it's pay. As Captain Quick said, for a captain he's happy with his pay.

• 2100

Look at the difference between a captain's pay and a corporal's pay. Now, I know their job is more stressful, and they went and got degrees and all the things that go along with it. I realize that. But when Maclean's can put out in print that an 18-year-old can leave school this year, become a police officer in some city, and make $2,000 more than I do right now, with over 17 years in the military and four tours, that's disheartening—very disheartening. An 18-year-old kid can make more money than me, who has a wife and two children and 17 years of putting my life on the line.

Starting off, no one wants to stay here, or has shown that they want to stay here, more than me, as some of the senior officers can attest. I've put in memos, to just about anyone who will listen to me, to stay. A big reason is the extra money. I don't have to foot the bill for a house here. The big thing is money.

I'll go through the eight points I have here. We, as sergeants and below, in the realm I talk to, have about 30 to 50 guys where this comes from, that we have problems with. Every time something like this comes up, people, as we've seen a little bit tonight, make political agendas out of something when you're trying to help us. People get up with political agendas and try to make a point of something else that has nothing to do with this.

I'm sure they have their legitimate concerns, but in my opinion—and only mine—they've had their chance to address it and they have their avenues to address it. This is probably the only time I'll ever get to address this.

So that's one point, that people make political gestures and statements and speeches.

When it comes to housing for us, someone made reference today to the fact that some of the civilians who work on the base as whatever—professionals or tradesmen or what have you—work for 20 years here on the base. They have a house, they get a boat, they get a Skidoo. They make a life. Their children go to school. They have the same friends. They go to university and they carry on a life—unlike us. Every four years.... My children left Petawawa last summer, and I think every day they want to go back. What can we do?

When we buy and sell houses, for the most part a lot of people here have bought and sold houses five to ten times. Sometimes you make a couple of bucks, but if you're like me, more times you lose. As Mr. Clouthier can attest, in the Petawawa area right now, with my luck, it dropped just as I was selling. The military gives you a percentage to reimburse you if it was a 10% drop. At the time I sold, it was 9%, so I got bombed there.

The mortgage differential is another dandy. If you check into that, I'll bet anywhere from 30 to 50 people who left Petawawa last summer paid anywhere from $1,500 to $3,000 on that one. I can assure you it was that many people. After I left, I heard from a friend of mine that it then went up past 10%. He bought at $137,000, I think, and sold for $108,000.

The military brings in these people to do the two assessments on your house to help you out. My house was valued at $139,900 when I bought it. I bought it at Christmas, so I got a really good deal on it. I got it for $115,000. When they came in to assess it, they assessed it at $102,000. This is a completely done house—double driveway and the whole shebang.

This is the kind of stuff we face all the time. When I moved, I got hit with the differential thing, I got hit with the low cost of housing—yadda, yadda, yadda. I mean, I could go on. Everyone here could.

• 2105

Someone mentioned posting allowances earlier. A posting allowance is supposed to be there to help you out with curtains, stuff for the house, when you get in. My wife could tell you more about this; I'm normally never there. You move into a house and this posting allowance is supposed to help you, so I can't understand what is the difference between a corporal and a colonel when it comes to this. It's supposed to help the corporal as much as the colonel. Unless the colonel has gold curtains, I don't know....

To me, if you brought his down and brought the corporal's up, that would make more sense for this time. I realize that a colonel has a much more important job than I have. He runs the base and I run a kitchen, but I don't think his curtains are that much more expensive than mine.

It's the same thing when we get posted, every four years or whatever. I was in Halifax, Gander, Kingston, Petawawa, Sydney, and here. Every time you get posted in you try to fit into the community. In Petawawa it's boating. The Petawawa River is phenomenal. If you ever get a chance to go there, it's awesome. Everyone has these big boats, huge boats. So we go out and we get ourselves a little $1,200 boat and go around the river just givin' her. Now you get posted and you have to leave in a month or two months. You only get $600 for your $1,200 boat, so you're steadily buying high and selling low.

I've been here less than a year. I bought two new skidoos—well, not new skidoos; I bought two second-hand skidoos. I bought them high and now there are 1,500 on the market for sale. I can't win. As I said, it's all about money for sergeants and below.

Someone mentioned spouses working. My wife is a nurse and I've never seen anyone work as much, take care of a family, be a mother, and just be an all-around buddy as my wife. In Petawawa she worked in Pembroke in the Civic and she worked in Deep River. She worked full-time hours, but it was on a call-in basis. I was in Bosnia; of course, that helps. As for my children, my mother came up from Newfoundland for a while, my sister came up, her sister came up. It just goes on and on and on. Without her working we couldn't afford a $1,200 boat. I don't think I have to say any more on that. We need her working.

This is a point that a lot of guys bring up. Messes were mentioned here today or tonight. We have three messes here: an officer's mess, a sergeant's mess, and a junior ranks mess. They're going down to 91 people here. They're putting it into one building and supposedly they're making one bar and three messes. Again, with the guys I talked to, to me and to them this is a gone era of that as well.

I have friends now because of no promotions and stuff.... Like Captain Quick said, I was outstanding for six years to get this. Six years. It only takes one or maybe two and you get promoted to master corporal for us. I was six years and I finally got it. Now I'm sitting on two outstandings and hopefully one this year, but as I said, there's nothing in my future for promotion.

Promotion to us now is not about glory or any of that any more; it's about money. For us, until we hit warrant officer we don't get any money. We get enough to survive, to keep the wolf away from the door and get a $1,200 boat. Without your wife working, you're just keeping the wolf away from the door. Every time you get posted, you have to pay for the licence on your car, you have to pay for phone bills, you have to pay for hookup of cable, you have to pay for all this stuff. I was posted last year and again this year. It adds up.

Getting back to the messes, I am almost 18 years in, and some of my friends were lucky enough to go up; some are warrant officers. I have friends who were CFRs and now they're majors. But on this base or any other base, in order for me to have a drink with these guys, I have to go downtown.

• 2110

This winter we played hockey together—me, Colonel Langton, Warrant Officer O'Shea, who's my boss, and a whole bunch of us. We couldn't come on the base and have a drink. They started up a social centre, and I was very pleased, as all of us were, to see that it was working pretty good, but it died off.

In today's society, with more people being educated and getting more education and stuff like that, there has to be something where you can come on the base and everyone can get together.

Another point is with regard to UN tours and going into places like Bosnia. I've done two tours in Cypress. I was in Bosnia with IFOR when we first implemented in there, when the UN went out and we went in. That was a rough go. I was there. I was in alert.

A lot of times, for a lot of guys—and I know this for a fact, because I've had guys under me tell me this—because in Petawawa you get the opportunity to do this, what happens is that they go and buy their $1,200 boat and they buy their skidoo. They'll do this for a year and a half or two years and then they're begging to go on a tour, to leave their wife and kids, so they can pay off their bills. I know this for a fact. That's what happens.

Someone said here that the army has the roughest go. I served two years with the navy. I was in Gander and in Sydney, but for the most part I've done a lot of field time. The air force is where it's at, I'm telling you. I wanted to come here and I want to stay here. In my three years on a boat, we were gone all the time. When I was in Petawawa I was gone all the time, with three tours in seven years, not to mention the time in the field.

We're quite fortunate here in the wing commander and wing chief we have. They have a legitimate concern for this kind of stuff. Last week I went up to Trenton on a career development thing, and this was the type of stuff we were discussing as well. That's why a lot of these points I'm projecting to you are from me, yes, but also from a lot of guys.

So that's about it. I thank you for your time and I'll field any questions you might have for me.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a question. First of all, obviously you're going for a raise with your comments about the wing commander. You must be up for a promotion.

MCpl Wade Walsh: Yes.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Actually, my question is about that exactly. You said promotions aren't about glory any more but about pay. To me, that sounds like a pretty sad commentary.

MCpl Wade Walsh: Very sad.

I was in Bosnia, and it's documented that I was awarded a commander's commendation for it. I did CPR on a young woman while I was in Bosnia and apparently had something to do with helping her out, or saving her life or something. That year I also took a truck in from Split, Croatia, up to Coralici, Bosnia, under fire. Our trucks were all shot up, and all kinds of stuff. There were some ugly things happening there. For six months there was fire going over our heads. As the military policeman said here, there were all kinds of things happening.

When I got back to Petawawa, I got a PER—and I can show to any of you the evaluation we get—where because of a certain quota such that only so many could be in the outstanding category, despite all this stuff I did, I got a superior PER, and meanwhile, a guy who sat back in the unit and never went in the field, never went anywhere, never did anything, got “outstanding”, because of bureaucracy.

When this kind of stuff happens, and after 18 years of this, you get tired. That's the point I'm at now. I'm tired. That's why I said that.

Mr. Leon Benoit: It means nothing any more, then, other than money.

MCpl Wade Walsh: Money. I want to be able to give my teenage daughter that $78 pair of jeans that her friend has. I think the people I work for can tell you I still do my job, and I like to think I do it well, but the heart's not there any more. I mean, it's money now.

• 2115

I want to get promoted. I work day and night, but it's not for Queen and country any more, it's for money. We do those dinners. I'm sure you guys have been to a base where we do mess dinners and stuff. We get paid for that. Most guys volunteer for those all the time for money, and then you're losing out on family time and what have you, but you're trying to make ends meet, especially the guy who doesn't have his wife working.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

MCpl Wade Walsh: You're welcome, sir.

The Chairman: Mr. Clouthier.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Corporal, I may be a little selfish, but he's welcome back to Petawawa any time, to tell you the truth.

And about the $1200 boat, my 19-year-old son's friend told them he bought a boat for $600 and he's going away to university this year so he put an ad in the paper and sold it for $1500. I hope it's not your boat.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: I appreciate you and the other people speaking here tonight. Rest assured, Master Corporal, and I've said this in every place we've been to, that we can't guarantee anything, but we can guarantee that your concerns will be put in that report and they will listened to. I appreciate everything you and these other people have done for the military service. We're here not because we're getting paid to do it—we're getting our MP's pay—but because each of us, including my colleagues from the other parties, is interested and volunteered to come. So thank you very much.

MCpl Wade Walsh: For more than that we can't ask.

The Chairman: Master Corporal, I believe Mr. Benoit has another question, but before I go to him you mentioned that the Petawawa River is nice, and I agree with you, but I think the Ottawa River is a lot nicer. I also want to mention that I believe everything you say, because I trust a man with a beard.

Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: The only good thing about the Ottawa River is that it's leaving Ottawa. Ottawa is a beautiful city, a beautiful city.

I want to say, Master Corporal, that I don't believe something you told me tonight. You said you're just doing it for money. You are not. When I listen to you, it's not money. Money may be a problem, it may be something you need, but you're not doing it for the money.

MCpl Wade Walsh: That's what my wife says.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Our last witness is Corporal Joe Kristiansen.

Corporal Joe Kristiansen (Individual Presentation): Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I promise to be brief, because it's a pretty late hour.

I wasn't scheduled to speak. These are just notes that I've been taking all day about different things that I either heard people touch on or perhaps they were glossed over or neglected.

The member from Labrador, Mr. O'Brien, mentioned that we're doing more with less, or words to the effect that we may be saving money but we're driving people crazy in the process. I think that is exacting a price from members of the military that perhaps isn't obvious in dollars-and-cents terms or even in dedication to the job. I joined in 1984 under the “no life like it” series of ads. They stopped them years ago. I've always found it kind of amusing that they stopped those, because I got in when the military was very fat and promotions.... When I joined the artillery, promotion was pretty simple: if you could tie your boots a couple of days in a row, up the tree you went.

I spent six years doing that, running around the field. I had a lot of fun doing that and I met a lot of great people there, but one day I decided to go see where airplanes go when it's cold and dark, so I joined the air force. Since that time we've gone through a period of reduction. I think the colonel would know the exact figures, but the ones I'll use are ones I've read before. We're doing 90% of our pre-reduction tasks or taskings throughout the military with approximately 60% of our personnel. Is that somewhere in the ball park?

• 2120

We're quite proud of that. I know that the people on this base are quite proud of that, given all the reductions that have taken place over the last few years. But I find that a lot of people are spending more time at work, or they're taking work home with them. I'll go home at nights and I may be in the living room with my wife and my kids, but I'm doing a report on my computer so I'm not really there. I'm there physically, but I'm not really paying attention to what's going on.

Other policies.... There is an Air Command directive that we have to use up all of our leave every year. With one assisted trip out of here, I basically spend the better part of a month sitting in my PMQ on leave, which means I usually go into work for a couple hours a day just to get out from under my wife's feet. She doesn't like having me around the house, not on a day-in day-out basis. She says I get in the way after three or four days. So we end up taking all this leave and doing extra work at home or doing extra work going in on our off hours, and that takes a toll on military members.

On it all being about pay now, when I joined the military I was told that we could be called upon to do things that other people in other sectors of society would never have an opportunity to do. They would never know we had done it and 90% of the time you'd never hear a thank you, except from your peers, that you had been there and helped out. For the most part that's true. I don't think the military is looking for a big group hug from Canadian society, but maybe a nod of the head or an acknowledgement that we do an important job.

I don't think there is anybody who signed up to get rich in the Canadian Forces. It's not sound policy. I know I didn't, but over the last few years I've been punching a clock till my twenty. I have no hope of promotion. My career manager pretty much told me that I moved around too much because I went wherever they asked me to go. He told me I should spend more time in one location, or maybe take a college course. There are a lot of colleges here in Goose Bay.

So I've been through a lot of the experiences the military has to offer. In the last week I just spent three times what I make annually, and I spent less time making that decision than I do deciding what kind of sound card I want to buy for my computer. A house-hunting trip is something I don't think I'll ever go through again. I'll take the bite. I'll move into PMQs and stay there for a year to get to know the area where I'm going first. Five days is not enough time to make a sound financial decision like that. In a year or two I'll be able to tell you if I made the right choice, but it sure looks nice.

That's pretty much all I had to say.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: We've heard a lot about the career managers. I'm questioning a lot of the comments that have been made to military personnel, maybe those eligible for promotion or feeling they are eligible for promotion. To be made in such a flippant way—is this common practice?

Cpl Joe Kristiansen: I wasn't actually talking to my career manager. It costs too much to send a navy office career manager up here, so they sent an aviation one for all the air force people or all the people on the base. The AVN career manager had a couple of notes from my career manager and he suggested I should stay in one place, that this might help me out. I never expected to be talking to a parliamentary committee before I spoke to my career manager. Maybe this isn't the best career move.

• 2125

Mr. Art Hanger: You've been in the military for...?

Cpl Joe Kristiansen: I've been in for 14 years now.

Mr. Art Hanger: And from your perspective you don't see much chance of promotion from this point on.

Cpl Joe Kristiansen: Last year, due to the politics of only a certain percentage being allowed into superior, I got dropped into that vast void of “if you weren't outstanding you weren't ranked”. So this year my PER signed—I went out outstanding. So I'll be ranked and for the next three years I'll be looked at, but in my trade this year 187 people were ranked, and there are six promotions.

Mr. Art Hanger: So there is not a lot of space.

Cpl Joe Kristiansen: I've got six years left until I have my twenty years, and I figure that's pretty much when I'm getting a watch and leaving.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you, Corporal.

The Chairman: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being here this evening. It has helped us quite a bit with our report.

I forgot to explain something when we first arrived. The report should be ready by the end of the summer. We will be tabling it at the beginning of September when the House reconvenes, and one way or another we will make sure you get a copy. Thank you very much.

This meeting is adjourned.