NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Monday, April 20, 1998

• 1900

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.)): Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I would like to welcome each and every one of you to our town hall meeting this evening to get your views and opinions on how to improve quality of life for your military personnel.

I usually start off by asking all the members of the committee to please introduce themselves. This is what we'll do tonight. I will start with Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm Leon Benoit, member of Parliament from Alberta, Lakeland constituency. The Cold Lake airbase is in that constituency. I'm a Reform member of Parliament.

Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): I'm Art Hanger. I'm the Reform defence critic, and my riding is Calgary Northeast.

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): My name is Bob Wood. I'm the MP for Nipissing, which is just up the road, and CFB North Bay is in my riding.

Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): I'm John Richardson. I'm the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of National Defence. My riding is Perth—Middlesex, which is between Stratford and London, Ontario.

Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): My name is David Price. I'm the Progressive Conservative member from Compton—Stanstead, at the southern part of Quebec.

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): I'm Judi Longfield. I'm the Liberal member representing the riding of Whitby—Ajax, which is just east of metropolitan Toronto.

Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): My name is Hector Clouthier, and I'm the member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke.

[Translation]

Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): My name is Ghislain Lebel and I am the member of Parliament for the riding of Chambly.

[English]

The Chairman: My name is Robert Bertrand. I'm the MP for Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, just on the other side of the river here.

[Translation]

I would also like to mention that if any of you wish to make your presentation in French, there is no problem. Please feel free to speak in the language of your choice. Without further ado, then, we will begin with

[English]

the first one who will do the presentation, Dena Palamades.

Dena, please.

Ms. Dena Palamades (Individual Presentation): Good evening, honourable members of Parliament, Colonel Mitchell, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for inviting me here this evening.

My name is Dena Palamades. I've been a dependent wife for thirteen and a half years. During that time we've moved six times.

On April 1, 1996, DND's contract with its soldiers and their families fundamentally changed. That was the day the new contract and policy came into effect for the guaranteed home sale program, the home equity assistance plan, the Canadian Forces Housing Agency, and the movement of furniture and effects.

My family and I, as well as many other military families, suffered financially and emotionally from these changes. My family lost $17,000 as a result of our 1996 move. I will explain how and why and what I believe is the remedy.

Our house-hunting trip was in May 1993. The market was hot. One RCR had just moved from London, the waiting list for PMQs was 200 days long, and rental properties were in short supply. We did the most reasonable thing: we purchased a modest three-bedroom bungalow.

In the next three years things really changed. First were general government downsizing and some lay-offs; then they closed PNFI. Soon after, AECL laid off over 400 employees. Then we said farewell to the Airborne. Finally, in 1996 postings in were much more limited.

• 1905

This is a small town. The vast majority of real estate vendors and purchasers are military or government employees. Taking almost 1,100 jobs out of the local economy had a significant impact.

To add to an already depressed market, the guaranteed home sales program was introduced. It was the pilot project with high ideals. ADM Personnel said:

The GHSP has excellent potential to achieve its intent of reducing the anxiety associated with relocation during a period of rapid change and unsettled housing markets.

The GHSP doesn't guarantee a sale, it guarantees a price. The price is based on the average of two independent certified appraisals. There is a caveat: the house must be calculated to sell within 90 days. At the same time, benefits for TDRA were reduced from a previous twelve months to nine. TDRA provides assistance to cover costs incurred in carrying two residences.

HEAP was also changed. Previously members who had lost more than 10% of their purchase price would get 90% of their loss back. Now HEAP is based on the appraised value for GHSP, and the local market must have dropped 10% or more.

In our case we purchased for $139,900. Royal LePage offered us $127,500, 9% less than our purchase price. The house later sold for $116,000, a full 17% less than the purchase price. The appraisers said the local market had dropped 7.5%. We accepted a 9% loss and received no assistance, but the same would have been true if we had sold on our own. No matter what the real loss is, the benefit is based on the appraised value, and the local market must drop more than 10%.

These rules don't work in Petawawa, because it's very difficult to develop statistically significant real estate market data.

In the spring of 1996 the average number of days that houses were on the market was 149. In my neighbourhood the average was 341.5 days. There was this huge discrepancy, because the over-$125,000 market behaved differently from the market for those houses under $125,000. Purchasers of the $125,000 and over houses were either laid off or relocated by the federal government. The way the market compensated was partly to reduce prices, but mostly by extending the time on the market. Also, this market is very seasonal and most sales occur during the spring and early summer.

Royal LePage was awarded the contract to administer the GHSP. They managed all aspects of the program, from arranging appraisals to determining guaranteed sale price, arbitrating any complaints about the process, managing vacant properties, and obtaining listing rights on GHSP houses.

I can't take a pure loss of $12,400 when it was the government that was making us move, had changed the rules, and had killed the local market. I went out and did my research.

You can't get an independent appraisal because there are only five certified appraisers in the Upper Ottawa Valley and they all do work for Royal LePage. The real estate appraisal business is at best subjective, at worst a guess. In our case they were way off. There are no concrete data to support the assertion that the local market went down 7.5% between 1993 and 1996. In Petawawa as a whole, based on the Renfrew County Real Estate Board figures, it actually went up 2.4%.

Everyone I spoke with said you can't rely on that. The over-$125,000 market was different. Even Royal LePage insisted that we focus on our immediate location.

I then did a title search on every single house in my immediate neighbourhood. This is what I found: All 1993 sales to all 1996 sales dropped 3.33%. For homes that sold in both 1993 and 1996, the same house in both years, the drop was even less, 2.31%. Once GHSP was introduced, the prices dropped 6.62%. GHSP houses dropped an average of 13.78%. Even more interesting is that once GHSP was introduced, only two houses in my area sold between August 16, 1996 and June 30, 1997. This program significantly changed the local market.

• 1910

Let me put these statistics in some context.

My husband's posting required him to be in Toronto on June 24, 1996. We had our names on the PMQ list. Mid-July we learned that one was available on August 6. During my husband's absence I had to finish all move preparations on my own, as well as respond to the many and significant demands from Royal LePage.

It was at this point the changes to the movers' contract hit me. I had a visit from the moving agent. He went through the house and told me many things had changed. In particular, they required an extremely detailed high-value inventory. I scrambled for the next three or four days to meet this requirement. When the packers actually came in, they said they didn't need the detailed inventory and they didn't use it.

When they came in, I also learned how much the rules had changed. There were no longer minimum standards for packing. They were accepting the liability, so they could pack the way they wanted and I could go stuff it.

When I challenged them, because they had six framed pictures in a box designed for one, with single pieces of packing paper between them, I was told we had no rights under the contract. If there were damages, they would fix them at the other end. It was clear they didn't have enough boxes or packing paper. Many things were packed without paper.

Move preparation was not my full-time job. I had a very demanding career and two pre-schoolers to care for. I wasn't able to do it all myself, so I was forced to hire a local teenager to help me. My husband returned home the evening the packers finished, in time to load the truck.

We arrived in Toronto and met the truck at the PMQ at 8 a.m. on August 6. CFHA wasn't opened yet. When someone did arrive, they asked me if we could possibly wait a few days, because the house wasn't ready. They could have phoned me the previous business day, and we would not have packed the truck in the first place. Our choice was to move in as is or put our stuff in storage in transit. We had the truck waiting outside. Moving in was the lesser of two evils.

In addition, my husband had to go back to Petawawa on exercise the very next day. He would return August 27, only to leave again on September 3 on a six-week course.

Our march-in revealed 32 deficiencies. There was rubble in every corner. The ceiling above the stairs had collapsed. The bathtub was filled with plaster, the toilet was plugged, the basement floor was still sticky with not quite dry paint, and the water main was leaking.

I begged CFHA to bring in a cleaner right away to get rid of some of the garbage before the boxes started coming in. They agreed to clean the bathroom and fix the toilet. They didn't clean the rest of the house until we were settled in. We moved everything into a filthy house half the size of what we had in Petawawa. It was so packed you couldn't move.

The fun began the next day. New rules meant I had 24 hours to unpack all our possessions and identify all damage under supervision by the mover. What was not identified could not be claimed. Knowing I would be alone and anticipating some of this, I thought it necessary to bring that helpful teenager with me from Petawawa.

We started opening boxes. There was a lot of damage. It was stupid things. A beautiful wooden carving was broken into pieces because it had been wrapped in a single piece of paper. Someone had thrown an ink pad into a box with clothing, stuffed bears, books, and a carpet—all things that under the old rules would have been packed separately. We had red ink on everything.

The agent's packer, who was supervising, was so upset he got a 24-hour extension on our original 24 hours from Allied headquarters in Edmonton. The chaos had just begun.

At about 11 a.m. workmen appeared and started to re-roof the house. I could not convince CFHA to hold off. Now I had two very upset children, who couldn't play outside because of nails and shingles flying off the roof. There was no room to move inside. Try unpacking 166 boxes and checking for damages on the balance of 626 items when the clock is ticking. My two-year-old wouldn't let me put him down, and my four-year-old was out of control. The babysitter was wonderful, doing her best to unpack and record damages.

On August 12, six days later, I got the verbal offer from Royal LePage. I had five days to accept or reject the offer. I told them I wanted to appeal and asked for copies of the appraisals. They said they would not provide the appraisals. We hung up. I tried to reach my husband, who was in the field. On the 21st phone call I reached someone who could pass him a message.

In the absence of hard data, on August 14 I submitted a letter of appeal to Royal LePage, requesting copies and clarification of the appraisals. The rules are you have one opportunity to appeal. The appeal is made to Royal LePage. DGCB will not get involved.

• 1915

I also called the senior manager at DGCB to complain that Royal LePage wouldn't provide us with the appraisals. She said there was no reason for us not to see the report. She adamantly refused to provide me with a copy of the contract between Royal LePage and DND so that I could understand the arrangement and who was motivated by what. She did tell me that they still had not received the completed HEAP report for our house, so we had to make our decision without knowing whether we would qualify for HEAP.

During this conversation she revealed that not only was she responsible for GHSP, HEAP, and the Royal LePage contract, but also she was responsible for the move contracts. This made me furious. Here was one person whose decisions had a serious impact on the financial and emotional health of so many military families, and she had no compassion.

On August 18 I received a partial appraiser's package—not the whole thing. On August 19 I submitted a clarification on our letter of appeal. This was the essence of my appeal: that properties used for comparison were not all fair comparisons, and that there were numerous factual errors in the appraisals.

I found it incredulous that I and most of the other DND members I knew who had participated in the GHSP in the Petawawa area had lost 9% from their original purchase price. This is significant, because it did not allow us to qualify for the HEAP program.

The GHSP significantly distorted the local Petawawa real estate market. This meant that whether or not what Royal LePage offered was a fair market value price, it became one, thereby reducing all sellers' potential sales prices.

On September 18 I spoke with the regional Royal LePage supervisor. His comments were disturbing. Royal LePage sends back questionable appraisals to the original appraiser for comment. He said that Royal LePage was compelled to use the original results because “we are caught in the middle and must keep with what the appraisers say”. His comments revealed that he thought our property was overvalued and he said—I quote—“DND is very strong about not dropping to qualify to HEAP”.

He indicated that he'd received pressure to ensure the properties did not qualify for HEAP. He insisted that location was the key and that the appraisers had to base on houses in the area, even though they weren't directly comparable. He said that mistakes in the appraisal don't alter the overall impact of the appraisal. Neither appraiser adjusted for a 90-day sale, and they won't change unless they're clearly and utterly wrong. If a time adjustment had been made, the offer would have been at a lower price.

In hindsight, I believe DGCB and Royal LePage knew the GHSP would distort the market. They knew that houses would be sold at a loss, and to keep costs down we were forced to absorb 9% of the loss. Besides, Royal LePage is a big business that needs to make a profit somehow.

Finally, when everything is subjective, it is impossible to be so precise that we missed benefiting from a program by 1%. If there had been an adjustment for time, the actual selling price of $116,000 after 14 months on the market should have made us eligible for HEAP.

The appraised value was not the only issue. Once listed, Royal LePage did a poor job. The MLS listing had several errors, including the omission of a second bathroom. Also, the exterior of the house was poorly maintained.

The house finally sold to someone who knew it intimately: the daughter of the previous owner. They knew they had a very good deal. Our lawyer was not provided with the legal package, so she was unable to provide advice. We were obliged under penalty to respond to DGCB and Royal LePage's demands within very a short time, but they did not meet their timing obligations.

After 90 days on the market the GHSP house automatically goes to Royal LePage, so the listing agent loses the house. My agent worked very hard at marketing the house, incurred advertising expenses, and received no compensation.

These are my recommendations:

1. Programs must be designed to compensate people for actual costs, not to save the department as much money as possible. At least use a sliding scale: the greater the loss, the greater the percentage covered.

2. All programs must be adequately funded, monitored to ensure that objectives are met, and have an independent and objective appeal mechanism.

3. People need reasonable amounts of time to react. They are facing many pressures during posting season.

4. If the member is not available during the move, the spouse needs support. It takes two people to move a family, especially when there are young children.

5. Don't contract it out. It gets distorted with the profit motive and there's no accountability.

• 1920

To sum up, DND and the government are not meeting the stated Treasury Board obligations to cover the members' actual and reasonable expenses. We had unrecoverable losses on the house, carrying costs on the house, improvements, and babysitting costs that were directly attributable to the move. We lost $17,060 in our last move, and no one is accountable. That represents $35,000 before-tax income.

As a final thought, think about the human element. Over six months we battled big business and bureaucracy, with no success. All the while I had a full-time career and two young children and suffered from major sleep deprivation.

In closing, I would like to submit my presentation with supporting data for the record. Thank you for listening.

The Chairman: Dena, thank you very much for your presentation. A few of the MPs have questions for you. I'll start off with Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you very much for your presentation.

During this process of having your house appraised and attempting to sell it while juggling everything else, was any assistance rendered on this base to help you go through all of it?

Ms. Dena Palamades: When I spoke with people in R&D and CMTT, they provided whatever information they had. I was employed on this base at the time. I had a good relationship with a lot of people, and I spoke with as many people as I could. It simply was not within the capacity of people on the base to deal with the problem.

I wasn't the only one. Many, many people were in this situation. When it's centralized, you can't drive accountability from the base level. It's very hard to reach the people who make the decisions.

Mr. Art Hanger: I gather from your presentation that it is not always the process whereby Royal LePage, which is the realtor, would end up also being the main entity as far as an appeal was concerned.

Ms. Dena Palamades: In the past there was no such thing as a guaranteed home sale plan. You put your house on the market; you did your best to market it and sell it at what price the market bore. If you had a loss in excess of 10%, HEAP kicked in. The regulation said they could demand an appraisal to make sure it was worth what you said it was, that you didn't just low-ball to get the house off the market, but generally I don't think that happened previously.

Mr. Art Hanger: I have one other question.

You've gone through the appeal process with Royal LePage. What was their attitude toward you for appealing. Was it “get out of my face” type of thing?

Ms. Dena Palamades: No, they accommodated my appeal after they decided they would send me the appraisal information. We bounced back and forth. I complained about the price, I put in my formal paperwork, and they talked to me on the phone. A lot of blame was put on NDHQ. You know, I quoted the exact words of the gentlemen I was speaking with, and the names and particulars are in my supporting data.

Mr. Art Hanger: You say a lot of blame was levelled at....

Ms. Dena Palamades: At the department rather than—

Mr. Art Hanger: Who would level it? Did Royal LePage do that?

Ms. Dena Palamades: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Dena, for your presentation. It was very thorough. You actually answered some of my questions with your recommendations, and I appreciate that. It's important to get the recommendations.

• 1925

With regard to the damage that was done—you might have answered this question, but I didn't pick it up from your presentation—were you fairly compensated for the damage that was done to your...?

Ms. Dena Palamades: The damages were repaired, but again that is another laborious, time-consuming process. I had to go out and get appraisals on what the repairs would cost. I had to substantiate the cost. I had to accommodate a whole bunch of timeframes in getting the repairs done after the fact. But they were repaired for the most part.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you.

Mr. Art Hanger: I have another question. To your knowledge, how many other members of the military on this base went through the same kind of situation as far as losses of....

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Art Hanger: I guess it's quite a few here.

Ms. Dena Palamades: Everybody I talked to who had applied for GHSP the summer we applied faced significant loses. I didn't keep the names of everyone, but I could go back through my records to find three or four specific names.

Mr. Art Hanger: There are obviously more than three or four here.

Ms. Dena Palamades: They've all left. I live in Toronto, and I was invited to come here.

Mr. Art Hanger: Is this still the process, and is it still going on as you have described?

Ms. Dena Palamades: Unless there were changes on the first of April. It was prior to the first of April.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Mr. Chairman, I heard some people applaud when Mr. Hanger asked if others had been affected. Would it be possible to have those who have had similar problems occur during moves to stand so that we can get an indication of just how big a problem it is?

I think that gives us a pretty good indication. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

I now call on Sergeant Bass, please.

Sergeant Darnell Bass (Individual Presentation): How are you guys doing?

I don't own a house, so nothing I've got to say is about housing or anything like that.

My name is Sergeant Darnell Bass. I'm 31 years old. I'm a sergeant in the infantry. I've been in the infantry for 12 years. I've been living on the Petawawa base for ten years. There have been a lot of changes in ten years I've been on Base Pet.

• 1930

I just have three or four general points that I'd like you to toss around—basically some rules that I'd like to see changed. I just want to air my ideas. These ideas also come from other guys my rank level and below, so it's not just me speaking here. It's all the guys in the infantry.

My first point deals with dress in the Canadian Forces. We're a small army, yes, but during the ice storm I was asked by some civilians if I was an American soldier. That kind of shocked me. My point is that we're not allowed to go downtown in this combat uniform that you see me wearing right now. It's been like a standing order on base. You are allowed to go into the bank for 15 or 20 minutes, but there is no long.... You can't wear your uniform downtown.

As far as I'm concerned, you should be able to wear this uniform anywhere in this country—on Parliament Hill or anywhere you go. If you watch CNN international news, you'll see American soldiers in their camouflage uniforms attending press rallies and political functions. Here, there seems to be a tendency to keep it away on base. We don't want to see guys in their uniforms downtown. That's my first point.

I have a solution, and that's to simply rescind this policy so we can wear our uniforms, because if I go to war, this is the uniform I'm going to be wearing.

My second point is concerning the mess, the drinking mess, and Canadian Forces policy on the messes. I'm a senior NCO. Let me just back up here a little bit. You have to be a member of a mess in the armed forces. There is no way around it. You have to pay mess dues. I currently pay $14 a month. It doesn't sound like a lot. For me it isn't, but for married guys it is.

On top of that there is a $5 a month gift fund, which we have to kick into, and then another $5 regimental dues. So you're already up to $24 a month coming off your pay.

We have in the mess what are called mess functions, which are must-attends. You have to go to the mess, and partake in the meal or whatever. Since it's a must-attend, you have to pay $25 per person to go. That's usually about the average. I just got hit for $30 the other day for a mess function, and another $6.50, so that was $36.50 out of my pocket.

So you go to this mess function, you bring your wife, and that's $50. Then if the wife needs to get her hair done, if she needs a new dress, make-up, and a babysitter for the kids, and if you want some money to kick in when you're at the mess to buy drinks, you're looking at hundreds of dollars for this must-attend mess function.

For a guy that's married, a sergeant that's married on base with two children or a family, that's a lot of money coming out of his pocket for something that's a must-attend for four or five hours. We usually get about three to four of these must-attend mess functions a year.

They come around. You can pay by acquittance roll, right there—you sign your name and the money comes right off your pay; it makes it nice and simple. Or you can pay cash.

So this is what's happening with the messes. It's a big push to have the mess functions. It gets very expensive after a while, especially for married guys.

I have a solution to this, for mess functions. I don't mind going to the mess on my own or whatever, to have a pop or something with the guys, but these mandatory must-attend functions are getting a little bit out of hand. It happens in the officer level and the senior NCO level. My solution is very simple, and that's to do what the RCMP did, and abolish all messes within the armed forces.

It's not really conducive to the current drinking policy within the CF. Frankly, I don't think we really need messes. We want to tighten up this army.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Sgt Darnell Bass: We want to tighten things up, because we're getting smaller and smaller, and we want combat capability. So that's it for messes.

• 1935

Do you have questions before I go on? I have one more point.

The Chairman: Go ahead and make your point.

Sgt Darnell Bass: Okay. My final point is that fitness standards within the army are dropping.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Sgt Darnell Bass: I don't mean navy and air force—we'll let them do what they want to do—but within the army itself we currently don't really have a fitness test, a challenging annual fitness test. We do have one that is a 13-kilometre rucksack march, but it's pretty basic.

What I want to see and a lot of guys want to see is that things be tightened up. We want combat fighting capability. You want guys that are ready, you know, to get it on. So I'd like to see a fitness test, similar to the U.S. army fitness test, imposed on the Canadian army—a yearly fitness test that every member must pass according to their age.

To go along with fitness and Base Petawawa, we currently only have one gym and one recreation facility for an entire brigade and its dependants. That means one weight room, one gymnasium and one pool. It's quite pathetic, actually, because you have to cram everybody in there at night to work out.

To go along with that, the PERI trade was abolished due to downsizing the armed forces. Those were the military fitness instructors who trained members of units in fitness and nutrition, and they have lost all their jobs. So right now what we have is civilian fitness instructors working on Base Petawawa, but it's not really quite the same.

That's it.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Benoit, you have a question.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, sergeant.

In terms of the fitness standards, you say they're falling. Why do you think that is?

Sgt Darnell Bass: I'd say there's a lack of drive, especially in the combat arms, to.... Since the Airborne Regiment was disbanded, there's no need to strive for a betterment of yourself. You can just float along in your current unit.

The gym facility is one big point. It's very small on base. Currently we have to pay, also. I have to pay $5 a month to go to the gym, but I consider that very small. But there's not much room in the gym any more.

Mr. Leon Benoit: You have to pay to use the gym?

Sgt Darnell Bass: That's right, yes, and dependants also.

Mr. Leon Benoit: How do you feel about the disbandment of the Airborne? You mentioned that. How do you feel about that?

Sgt Darnell Bass: How do I feel?

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes.

Sgt Darnell Bass: You want to know how I feel?

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes, I want to know how you feel.

Sgt Darnell Bass: It's like someone ripped my heart out and stomped on my guts.

I came here when I was 21, right out of Saskatchewan, right to this place, right to the Airborne. I was with 3 Commando for five years, and Airborne Reconnaissance for two years, so I did seven years right up until disbandment.

That was the beginning of the end for the Canadian army. There are a lot of guys who want to come into the army and they want to do things, but there's nothing left to do, nothing left to strive for. There are no special units to go to—only one—a place for a normal guy to go, a soldier, and work for his country.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Just to be clear, what did that do for morale, do you feel?

Sgt Darnell Bass: It dropped it to the point where you'll never get it back.

• 1940

Mr. Leon Benoit: What's your feeling, and what may be the feelings of other people you've talked to, about why the Airborne was disbanded?

Sgt Darnell Bass: It was a combination of things—political, media. The media was a big one. They had at her with both barrels.

But to look at other things, we're here for Canada, we're here for Canadians, we're here to defend the country. But a lot of guys I'm hearing from these days, especially the young guys, are just in it for the money. The honour has gone away. You do not want an army with guys who are just in it for the money, because that sucks.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you. I do have a couple more questions.

For clarification, you said that during the ice storm you were asked if you were an American soldier.

Sgt Darnell Bass: That's right.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Why do you think you were asked that? Is it that people didn't know there was a Canadian army?

Sgt Darnell Bass: People just didn't know what a Canadian soldier looked like, that he wore green. A lot of people just aren't aware of what the Canadian Forces does. You have us away on bases that are fairly isolated, I guess. A lot of people don't know what a Canadian soldier looks like.

Mr. Leon Benoit: That's exactly my next question. Is it a base rule that you're not allowed to go downtown, other than for a short period of time—

Sgt Darnell Bass: That's right.

Mr. Leon Benoit: —to do some business in the uniform? Why do you think that rule is there?

Sgt Darnell Bass: I don't know. I really don't know.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I think you'd want just the opposite.

Sgt Darnell Bass: That's right. But it's a rule that's been here since I've been on this base—ten years. I can't answer it.

Mr. Leon Benoit: That makes it sound like not only was the Airborne disbanded, but now you want to keep the soldiers hidden somewhere. To me, that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Sgt Darnell Bass: That's why a lot of young guys ask me why we have to keep things hidden away. This is our country too.

Mr. Leon Benoit: It doesn't demonstrate a lot of pride on the part of the people who would make rules like that. It doesn't demonstrate a lot of pride in the men and women who are in our forces.

Thank you very much.

Sgt Darnell Bass: Thank you, sir.

The Chairman: Mr. Clouthier.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Sergeant Bass, you seem to be a forthright young man, as did the previous speaker. Speaking as your federal member of Parliament, I'm very proud that you and the previous speaker are here this evening informing the committee about some of the things that you believe are not proper and correct with the Canadian military. Not only that, but as with the previous speaker you have also suggested some solutions.

As your federal member of Parliament, I might add that I've never been so proud of the Canadian military, especially from CFB Petawawa, for the way they handled themselves in the ice storm crisis and with the flooding crisis. I believe that you are a very proud man and are proud to wear that uniform. I wasn't aware that you could not wear that uniform in downtown Pembroke or Petawawa, and I was born and raised here and have lived here all my life. Is it just the fatigues or the full dress, or is it all?

Sgt Darnell Bass: Just the combat uniform, sir. If you want to go on extended appointments or anything, you are supposed to get into a CF uniform, which is the proper uniform.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: And that would be at the discretion of the base CO or NDHQ?

Sgt Darnell Bass: No, it's at your own discretion. A lot of guys get away with it. They just whip downtown and do banking and things like that.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: No, but if you wanted to wear the uniform continually downtown without a time restriction on it—

Sgt Darnell Bass: That's the base standing order.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Is it indigenous to each and every base or is it pervasive across the country? Are you aware?

Sgt Darnell Bass: I don't know, sir. I've only been here.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Okay.

A voice: Borden.

Sgt Darnell Bass: I hear Borden. All over? I guess it's all over, sir.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: You seem to have a lot of support in what you're saying, that the personnel should be proud and be able to wear that uniform at all times.

• 1945

Regarding the fitness standards, once again I agree with you, but I foresee some difficulties and perhaps you could share with me a solution for it. If someone was in for 15 or 20 years and they're getting a little long in the tooth and short in the hair like myself, what would happen if they couldn't meet certain fitness standards? Would allowances be made for someone who had suffered knee problems or hip or...? Would you just go by weight factor or...?

Sgt Darnell Bass: The fitness test would be based on age, as per the U.S. Army fitness test. It has different standards within the age groups.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Does the U.S. Army make allowances if for whatever reason someone suffered a debilitating injury?

Sgt Darnell Bass: That would be waived by the medical people. It would just be....

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Okay. And as we speak, there is no fitness standard at CFB Petawawa.

Sgt Darnell Bass: There is one for the combat arms, and currently that's a 13-kilometre march, but that doesn't bring about a fitness standard that people should strive for on a daily or yearly basis.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Mr. Richardson.

Mr. John Richardson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for coming today, Sergeant Bass. I'd like to ask you three or four short questions.

Could you name any NATO countries that don't have messes for the junior ranks—the sergeants and the officers?

Sgt Darnell Bass: Not in NATO. But when I was in the Middle East, I noticed that Israel doesn't have messes. Officers and men eat together in the same mess. But with drinking messes, no. I think the armed forces in most NATO countries do.

Mr. John Richardson: My next question is whether there a dress code in the RCR.

Sgt Darnell Bass: Yes, there is a regimental dress code.

Mr. John Richardson: How many orders of dress do they have in the code?

Sgt Darnell Bass: I'd say four, not including mess dress.

Mr. John Richardson: Is the uniform you're carrying now considered to be work dress?

Sgt Darnell Bass: Yes, sir. It's known as dress of the day or daily dress. To the majority of combat arms, it's known as combat.

Mr. John Richardson: I see. And that applies to all the people on this base.

Sgt Darnell Bass: Pretty much, sir.

Mr. John Richardson: Is it similar across Canada?

Sgt Darnell Bass: Yes, sir.

Mr. John Richardson: I have some sympathy toward some of the issues you've brought forward, but is what's happening here universal to what it is across Canada?

Sgt Darnell Bass: Yes, it is.

Mr. John Richardson: Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you, Sergeant.

Sgt Darnell Bass: Thank you, sir.

Mr. Art Hanger: I had some questions that I would like to ask the sergeant.

The Chairman: Sergeant, could you come back to the microphone please? Mr. Hanger has some more questions.

Mr. Art Hanger: Sergeant, the fees charged for the mess are $14 for membership, $5 for a gift fund, $5 for a regimental fund, and then on every must-attend mess function a cost is levied.

Sgt Darnell Bass: Yes, depending on what it is. If it's formal, it's usually $25 or $30 per person. If it's just a quick luncheon, it's usually $6.50. There's a standing joke going around my unit right now. A couple of guys got promoted to sergeant just a few days ago, and the first thing done was the mess committee had their hands out looking for money so that they could attend this upcoming luncheon.

Mr. Art Hanger: Are these customary fees that are levied at every mess, regardless of whether it's junior ranks or otherwise?

Sgt Darnell Bass: I know that the officers mess is probably double the cost. For the junior ranks it isn't as steep, and they do not have must-attend functions. For junior or non-commissioned members it's $7 a month.

• 1950

Mr. Art Hanger: So you see the only solution to this issue of the fees levied, the drinking policy.... I gather the drinking policy is not satisfactory to most.

Sgt Darnell Bass: I don't drink, so it really doesn't matter to me. I just used the example that the RCMP basically abolished their messing system, and I think you can do that with the Canadian Armed Forces. We've got things to worry about other than attending mess functions.

Mr. Art Hanger: You only have one or two a year. That's what you pointed out here. That's not a lot of functions. Isn't it sort of customary in the military or elsewhere...? I served 22 years in the police department, and social functions were not a required matter, but certainly something that was advantageous as far as bringing everyone together in a social setting.

Sgt Darnell Bass: I understand that, but when it's a must-attend and you have to pay money out of your own pocket, hundreds of dollars, especially if you're a married guy.... The gift fund money goes to $600 gifts to people who are departing. Sure that's nice, but cut us some slack here. Six hundred bucks from my sweat, from what I'm working for, from what the married guys are working for, for their families?

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes, it could be a lot of money.

I want to get to the third point you raised about the fitness standard. There is no requirement to meet any standard.

Sgt Darnell Bass: That's right.

Mr. Art Hanger: And that includes everyone in the infantry?

Sgt Darnell Bass: Combat arms, sir. There's only that 13-kilometre march, but it's quite a pathetic test as far as I'm concerned.

Mr. Art Hanger: Perhaps you're looking at it from the point of view of having been in the Airborne. As a specialty group in a specialty area, the standards set for you were much higher.

Sgt Darnell Bass: I don't consider that to be a hard standard. A lot of guys don't think it's a very hard standard. They want to see—

Mr. Art Hanger: Higher, not harder.

Sgt Darnell Bass: A higher standard? Yes, we would like to reach a higher standard.

Mr. Art Hanger: And what is the general fitness test right now?

Sgt Darnell Bass: It's a 13-kilometre rucksack march in under two hours and twenty-five minutes.

Mr. Art Hanger: So everyone is gauged according to whether they can make that 13 kilometre—

Sgt Darnell Bass: Pretty much. It also has to do with the medical side of things.

Mr. Art Hanger: All right. Thanks, Sergeant.

Sgt Darnell Bass: Thank you, sir.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Hanger.

Sergeant Bass, one recommendation that has come forward at some bases is that the mess duties should be or could be tax deductible. They said that would help quite a bit. How do you feel about that?

Sgt Darnell Bass: Very much so, sir.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Sgt Darnell Bass: Thank you, sir.

The Chairman: Corporal Madaire.

Corporal Alex Madaire (Individual Presentation): Hello, ladies and gentlemen.

I don't have a big saga here like the big move, but I have three or four points. One is the Canadian Forces leave policy. Currently we have to use up all of our leave every year. That was fine when we had lots of people to cover the shifts. However, I am a shift worker myself. There are three personnel in my section to do a two-man shift per day. When we had lots of people, forcing people to use up their leave was fine, but now you're doing 16- or 18-hour back-to-back days. I'm an air traffic controller. The time on the job is way too much to let someone else have leave, and when you're done your leave you come back and you do 16-hour days. So it defeats the purpose of the leave.

When our new leave policy was presented on 1 April 1996, they said we could accumulate 25 days from 1 April 1996 to the time we retire. But then they leave it up to the discretion of the wing commander or base commander, and every wing commander or base commander says you have to be down to zero. If you have to be down to zero every year, how can you accumulate 25 days? You can't do it.

• 1955

I'd like to see more incentive for corporals. We have four-year incentives. You get incentives for four years, and then that's it. At this time in our military, we don't have any promotions. There are no promotions in our trade. They're cutting back our trade, they're amalgamating our trade, they're getting rid of people. Now you have corporals staying corporals for 15 to 20 years, because there is nowhere to go up. While captains get ten years' incentive, a corporal gets four years' incentive. If there's a logic there, I don't know.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Cpl Alex Madaire: Must be a lot of corporals in the crowd here.

This policy of amalgamating trades, taking six trades and rolling them into one—you're knocking the bejesus out of our morale there. I re-mustered into the air traffic control. I didn't re-muster into in an air defence so I could spend my entire career down in the hole in North Bay. That has absolutely no appeal to me. I want nothing to do with that trade—get it away from me. The only thing that we have in common is we use a radar scope. That's it. They bring people together and we try to keep them apart. I want nothing to do with that trade.

You're doing it all around the forces. You're taking six trades, rolling them into one, and one fellow is expected to do six trades. Come on!

We have no incentives to save money. We're still in the old thought where we have a budget of $20,000 and it's almost April, and it's “Let's use up that money, because next year we won't get the $20,000”.

Give the people some incentive to save money. If you want to save on your hydro bill or something like that and you have $12,000 for your hydro, and all year you go around and you turn off lights and all that stuff, and you save $8,000, well don't penalize that unit for saving money. Recognize that they saved you $4,000 and kick $2,000 back or something. At least the guy's got something to show for it. But now there's no incentive. If you save the money at your base, there's where the money should stay. It shouldn't go into some Ottawa NDHQ fund.

• 2000

Our PMQs—like death and taxes, your PMQ rate will rise. Every year, regardless of whether we're getting a pay increase or not, it's 3%. I think there was a five-or six-year moratorium on our pay, but there wasn't a moratorium on the rent. It's 3%. “There you go. Thanks very much.” Nothing is done to the PMQs.

I was living in a house that was maybe done in World War II or something like that. When they finally did re-side it, there was the clapboard, black paper, and wood. There was absolutely no insulation. I went to get a heating rebate. They said nobody on this road gets a heating rebate. I said don't you think that's strange? They said that's true, it's strange. They cut off the heating rebate for the whole base.

So let's get our logic and our priorities straight. The houses, the PMQ's that we live in, are old. They've been paid for and paid for and paid for. Give us a break. When I brought this up to the people in Trenton, where I lived, I got some snide remark from some colonel who said “Well, my mortgage just went up”. He had absolutely no sympathy for me because I was only paying $500 rent. I'm paying $500 rent for a house that has ice on every circuit, every plug-in on an outside wall. Come on.

When a colonel tells me that he has no sympathy because I'm only paying that, he's a colonel making just a little bit more than a corporal. You know?

Thanks for your time.

The Chairman: Corporal Madaire, there are some MPs who have questions, starting with Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You made a comment that you really cannot move up rank, so it's really difficult to get any type of pay increase. Something that has been recommended several times is that there should be a way of getting a pay increase based on the level of expertise in your trade. If you achieved new standards in the trade, you'd get a pay increase based on that, even if you can't increase rank.

One of the concerns that has been expressed is that you could have some lower rank members being paid more than the ranks above. What are your thoughts on that?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Well, all this pay equity and everything—you guys are saying “We'll compare you to the outside world”. I don't think you're comparing me as an air traffic controller to an air traffic controller in Toronto. You're comparing me to, what, a CR-4, because I'm a corporal.

There are guys around here who have specialities. An infantry corporal has a lot of frigging skills. You can't market them, but he has a lot of knowledge. He puts a lot of heart and soul into his trade, and so do I.

Yes, if you want to pay me for a progression along this way instead of that way, that's fine too. But don't compare me to a CR-4 when I have more skills than a CR-4.

• 2005

Mr. Leon Benoit: So you'd be in favour of having pay increases based on the level of expertise in your trade rather than just limiting it to having to move up the ranks to get a pay increase.

Cpl Alex Madaire: We can't stay st the same pay scale for ten years. We can't do it. Most of any arguments in my house are usually based on money. That's the root of it—we can't do this for the kids because we've got to do this. There's only so much money to go around.

And the solution to this, unlike what our leader says, is not to get out. The comments last week—it's not to get out, because that's not the solution. If I wanted to be an air traffic controller on Civvy Street, I'd go and do that, but I want to be in the forces.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Which leader are you referring to?

Cpl Alex Madaire: I won't tell you his name, but it rhymes with CDS. He was here last week. If you don't like this, get out. If you don't like that, get out. That's not the—

Some voices: Hear, hear.

Cpl Alex Madaire: So I'll be Mr. Madaire tomorrow.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I won't get into that either.

Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Mr. Richardson.

Mr. John Richardson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for bringing some of your concerns forward. Was the CDS on this base last week?

A voice: Yes.

Mr. John Richardson: Was he talking to any of the NCOs and enlisted men?

A voice: Yes.

Mr. John Richardson: Did he address all of the people on the base?

Cpl Alex Madaire: No.

Mr. John Richardson: Could you give me an idea of the cross-section he met and talked with?

Cpl Alex Madaire: The officers and NCOs, I believe.

Mr. John Richardson: Just the senior NCOs and officers?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Yes, sir.

A voice: He walked around the floor and spoke to various people.

The Chairman: Could you come to the microphone and identify yourself for the record?

Corporal David Sheppard (Individual Presentation): My name's Corporal Sheppard and I'm with 2RCHA.

He came around the floor and spoke to various people. He didn't speak to me, but I did see him cross the floor. If it looked like you were doing something, he would stop by and chat with you for a few seconds and then carry on. He didn't pick anybody. It didn't matter who it was. It wasn't everybody. Everybody's got time restraints.

Mr. John Richardson: Thanks for explaining that to us.

I'd like to follow up with one that if I were serving today I would find a little difficult to handle—the freeze on wages and the clawback to the homes on this base and across the country. I think it was a universal plan. The recommended state, I gather, would be to try to balance that off with compensation in the form of increased income to offset the cost of running the PMQ system. What are your feelings? There are real problems with insulation, it sounded like to me. Which of the PMQ areas are you on in this base?

Cpl Alex Madaire: I'm just moving in from Trenton. I don't have a PMQ yet.

Mr. John Richardson: So the problem you were talking about was in Trenton?

Cpl Alex Madaire: I'm here and my family is back in Trenton.

Mr. John Richardson: I see.

Voices: Here too.

Mr. John Richardson: It's the same problem everywhere, is that what you are saying?

We've seen some of the newer bases where they're putting up PMQs and buildings, more particularly the bases at Cold Lake and Namao, the new base in Alberta that is taking over from the old Griesbach Barracks.

What you have said is on the record and we'll have a chance to review it when we meet further to make some consultations for our recommendations to the minister.

The Chairman: Thank you.

• 2010

Cpl Alex Madaire: Thanks for your time.

The Chairman: Mr. Wood.

Mr. Bob Wood: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Corporal, you touched on amalgamation of trades. Is that happening only in the air force, or is it happening in all the other divisions of the armed forces?

Cpl Alex Madaire: You can dick around with a lot of things, but leave my pay alone. You've got ADM clerks doing pay jobs because they've taken all of the support. The clerks now have to be experts in finance too. You turn around one day and suddenly they're finance clerks. I don't know.

They're doing it all over the place. Their 500 series—one guy used to turn a wrench this way, but now he has to turn a wrench that way. I can only speak for my trade. I don't know the impact on morale in the other trades, but it does absolutely no good to my trade. We've had many people get out of air traffic control because they don't want to go to the other side.

Mr. Bob Wood: You've talked about the other side. How does this work? Explain all this to me—the amalgamation of the trades. You're going to be—

Cpl Alex Madaire: You're from North Bay, aren't you?

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, I am.

Cpl Alex Madaire: You must have been down the hole.

Mr. Bob Wood: I have, but don't worry, you can come back and we'll put it up top.

Cpl Alex Madaire: How would you like to work down in that hole for 20 years? It's a nowhere job.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, I know.

Cpl Alex Madaire: It's a nowhere job.

Mr. Bob Wood: You don't have to convince me on that one.

You're in the air force. Obviously somebody has to sign off work. If it's done by some other trade that you're not familiar with, and you have to be a senior guy there or whatever, you have to sign off. Do you not have to sign off on aircraft repair or whatever?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Yes, sir. We've had scope people come over and they're occupying air traffic control positions in our trade and vice-versa. They've run many amalgamation courses and what not.

Mr. Bob Wood: What are you qualified to do now? Are you in instruments? Now that you're an air traffic controller, you would have to be.... If you're amalgamating trades, you would have to be qualified to do other work, right?

Cpl Alex Madaire: To do the surveillance, the identification and the weapons controller.

Mr. Bob Wood: So you're grouped in with all those?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Yes, sir.

Mr. Bob Wood: Coming to a base like Petawawa, where I don't think there is a large air force contingent—

Cpl Alex Madaire: There is the 427.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, the 427. My mistake. I keep forgetting where everybody is these days.

So this is a problem with the amalgamation of trades.

Cpl Alex Madaire: If you asked each individual in our trade whether it's a good idea or not—you may get a few officers to say that, but you won't get the troops to say it. I can tell you that.

Mr. Bob Wood: It would be a little scary, wouldn't it?

Cpl Alex Madaire: I want nothing to do with it.

Mr. Bob Wood: Okay, thank you.

The Chairman: Were you finished, Mr. Wood?

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, I'm finished.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Corporal, I understand that you just got a raise. When did it come into effect, January 1? Or was it April 1? A corporal at another base told me this raise meant about $100 gross on his paycheque, and with deductions for tax and increased CPP premiums it ended up being $53 clear. Then the rent on the PMQ he was living in went up $30, so he ends up with $23 clear.

Cpl Alex Madaire: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

Mr. Art Hanger: I didn't realize you were so spiritual. Maybe it's a good thing that you are.

All of the other levies on the allowances that you get are not very beneficial, from what I can tell. You're clawed back in everything. Everything is taxed and every subsidy is taxed back. It's considered part of your income so it's subject to all deductions. Is that the way it works?

• 2015

Cpl Alex Madaire: Every time unemployment insurance premiums go up, we get charged the max.

Mr. Art Hanger: That's right.

Cpl Alex Madaire: And I will never ever be able to collect it. I can't collect it, but every month they're digging into my pocket. Every month they're digging into my pocket for it, and every time there's an increase, I pay it, but I will never, ever see one drop of it unless I get out, get a job, and quit it. I've been in 23 years and I've been paying into it for 23 years, but I will never see cent one.

Mr. Art Hanger: You've been in the military for 23 years?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Yes, sir.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. Getting back to the PMQs, you were obviously referring to the one you had in Trenton.

Cpl Alex Madaire: Yes. I was also in London, Ontario, before they closed that.

Mr. Art Hanger: Was it the same thing?

Cpl Alex Madaire: A PMQ? Oh yes, of course. But we were told we were lucky to get it.

Mr. Art Hanger: I suppose, though, in the sense that if you look around at the availability of housing outside the base, what is there out there?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Well, we won't buy here. My wife is coming down in June. We will never buy here because of horror stories like the ones of this lady here. We know we're going to lose money. It's like taking money I don't have and throwing it right out the window.

Mr. Art Hanger: Have you owned your own place before?

Cpl Alex Madaire: No, sir.

Mr. Art Hanger: Do you have a down payment for a house if you wanted to buy one?

Cpl Alex Madaire: No.

Mr. Art Hanger: You've worked 23 years in the military. Is your situation uncommon?

Cpl Alex Madaire: I don't think so. I don't know.

Mr. Art Hanger: So you can work a career here, and never afford a down payment on a house?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Every now and then you get close to a down payment, but—

Mr. Art Hanger: You can work a career in the military on the rank of corporal and never afford a down payment on a house?

Cpl Alex Madaire: We've had the down payment before, but then the posting comes up, you get posted, the price goes up, and you're further away from the down payment then when you started.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes.

How often have you been away from your family, like on overseas postings?

Cpl Alex Madaire: I've done two tours in Cyprus and a tour in the Sinai, that's 18 months, and I'm living in post restriction now. I've had four years in the Airborne, about 50 exercises there. We've been apart quite a bit. That's the life we chose, though.

Mr. Art Hanger: Sure. Understood.

Cpl Alex Madaire: I'm not saying I wouldn't mind getting paid for it.

Mr. Art Hanger: On your postings, how are things back home? Do you get along okay? Does everything work fine for them?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Yes. I have two boys in school that pretty well need their dad now. One guy's getting to a critical point in his schooling. Yes, I'd like to be there, and I would have loved to have been there when my first was born, but I was away on course. But the family knows that. I was in the military when I got married. My wife knew what she was getting into. I'm not alone here. This is the life we chose.

Mr. Art Hanger: Agreed.

Cpl Alex Madaire: Listen, I'm proud to be here, and I don't want to get out. I just want to be paid what I'm worth.

Mr. Art Hanger: Right.

Do you find the support within the military family, if you will, sufficient for you and your family, whether you're here or not here?

Cpl Alex Madaire: That depends. I was in the RCR for 15 years and we had an excellent support unit within there. Then I went to the air force, in a smaller unit. There were only 40 people instead of 700, so that's the support that you have. If you're in a small unit, you have a small family. The larger units can afford personnel to put out a welfare office or something like that to take care of the family, maybe do the driveway when buddy's over in Bosnia. But when you're a small-time unit, you have small-time support.

• 2020

Mr. Art Hanger: One final question. This is more of a clarification for me. I know Mr. Richardson brought up the point about the CDS and the statement he made to you. Did he make it to you personally?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Oh, no, he didn't make it to me personally, because I wasn't invited to attend the thing.

Mr. Art Hanger: Attend...?

Cpl Alex Madaire: His briefing.

Mr. Art Hanger: So there was a meeting. How many people were in attendance?

Cpl Alex Madaire: Doctors' mess, sergeants' mess—I'm not invited there, sir.

Mr. Art Hanger: You personally weren't invited, but others in this group were.

Cpl Alex Madaire: Perhaps.

A voice: He did a briefing at the senior COs' mess and at the officers' mess.

Mr. Art Hanger: I see. So he was here on the base but didn't talk to any of the other ranks.

Cpl Alex Madaire: He may have walked around, sir, I don't know.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. Thanks, I appreciate it.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Corporal Madaire.

Voices: Hear, hear.

The Chairman: Ms. Cheryl Beaumont.

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont (Individual Presentation): Hello. I have the dubious distinction of being a retired member as well as a serving member's spouse.

Along with other comments about the military pay, CDS General Baril was quoted as saying that the pay raise wasn't much, but it was better than a slap in the face with a frozen mukluk. Well, I'd like him to stand here before us and say that, because then we could show him what a slap in the face really feels like.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: Those of us who have been in the military or who are still serving in the military will all say we never joined the military to get rich, but neither did we join to take a vow of perpetual poverty. Over and over again, all you hear is people saying we just want to get paid what we're worth. We want to have people tell us that they believe in us, that they support us. Then there's the CDS himself, who should be the one in the forefront of supporting his people, of trying to get the best for his people, stomping on you instead, while he's getting his pay raise every year.

Now, 3% a year may sound like a lot of money if you make $100,000 a year. However, if you're a private or a corporal and you're scraping by on $35,000 a year, you won't even notice 3% on your pay. With the last so-called pay raise we got, my husband and I looked at his pay statement and said “So where is it?” He got this pay raise but we didn't see anything of it. We did see that the income tax had gone up. You can bet that the government took their share of everything.

I was in for almost 16 years, and I paid unemployment insurance every year. I was put out of the military on a medical pension. At the time I got the message I was to be thrown out, I was five months pregnant. When I got thrown out I delivered my daughter the next day. I went to the unemployment office and could not claim because of my severance pay. By the time I went back to claim for maternity benefits, which the military assured me I could get, my daughter was too old for me to be able to claim. So I was left with nothing.

There I was, with a daughter that was three months old, and the only way I could unemployment was to say that I was going out looking for work. I decided to be the honest person. I wasn't looking for work at that time. All I wanted was maternity benefits, which I could not get. So I was left with nothing.

The way the medical works in the military is that if you get injured, you have to go to NDMC. We call that the “NDMC vortex”. If it sucks you in you'll never get out alive.

Voices: Oh, oh.

• 2025

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: I joined the military in 1980. In June 1991, at CFS Alert, I was injured. I started my tour into NDMC. It took me four months to get an appointment at NDMC, after being air-evacked out of Alert. After I saw the man for two minutes he said I needed a test. It took me six weeks to get the test booked, and I waited another six weeks after the test to go back and see the doctor, who said he still didn't know what it was and sent me for another test. So it went for a year. Then he did surgery. After the surgery it took me another two months to convince him that he didn't fix the original problem and left me with more problems than I started out with.

For the next four years, I was bounced between doctors and specialists, with test after test after test. Finally, after four years, they said, “Congratulations. We know what it is. We can't do anything for you. You're on a CRBM.”

During that time, in the four years I was in the military, as soon as you would come in and give your boss that medical chit your name was mud. As far as they're concerned, you're not injured, you're a deadbeat; you did this to yourself just so that you could get out of going on an exercise. I would rather go on an exercise for the next four years than suffer with what I had to put up with. Not only did my superior, my sergeant, come to me and tell me that I was useless, but he also, by his words and deeds, allowed my subordinates to treat me with the same disrespect that he showed.

It was only because I am the person that I am that I did not let them get me down. Most people, when they're stuck in this, will finally pull the pin rather than wait for the CRBM decision, because they can't put up with the bullshit. Pardon me.

Voices: Hear, hear.

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: If you cannot stand up for yourself and push when you're shoved, you don't stand a chance. My medical problem wasn't half as bad as what I had to suffer from my own peers.

Voices: Hear, hear.

The Chairman: Thank you.

• 2030

Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ms. Beaumont. I didn't get your first name.

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: Cheryl.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Cheryl, when did the Chief of Defence Staff make this comment?

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: I only saw it in the article in Maclean's. He was quoted as saying that.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay. So that wasn't something that was heard here on the base.

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: No.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I would certainly like to hear from anyone here who was actually at those briefings and heard the Chief of Defence Staff say some of the things that are reported, because it seems that he didn't win a lot of friends here on the base with what he said—

Voices: Oh, oh.

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: No.

Mr. Leon Benoit: —and I'd just like to hear what actually was said.

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: I don't think he'd win a popularity contest in Petawawa.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay. I just wanted to clarify that.

With respect to people being injured, as you're explaining, and what you go through as soon as you tell someone that you're going to a doctor or whatever because of an injury, that you're treated like a deadbeat, we've heard that type of thing many times before. It's a very common problem. That doesn't help you, but I'm just saying that we've heard it before, and it sounds like it's probably a common thing here too. Would you say so?

Ms. Cheryl Beaumont: It's more common here than anywhere else I've been because of the way the base is set up. It is a combat arms base. And yes, I see that part of it, and I don't agree with what we call the “MIR commandos” either. There are some people who do abuse the system, but you should give people the benefit of the doubt. You don't go through years of invasive tests and surgery to get out of going into the field.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Voices: Hear, hear.

The Chairman: Marguerita Bargiel.

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel (Individual Presentation): My name is Marguerita Bargiel. My husband has been in the Canadian Forces for 20 long years. He was posted from Calgary to Petawawa last year, in January.

After being posted eight times and moved around fourteen times, let me tell you that it was a move from hell. Nobody seems to be responsible any more.

The truck driver was lying to us when he emptied the truck on January 28. He told us at 8.15 p.m. that he was finished, but we still had 21 boxes not unpacked. He said he was going by the new rules, that they don't have to come back the next day to unpack. That was the end of it.

He wanted my husband to sign the paper. First my husband refused. They had an argument. I told him not to sign. Anyway, he signed. Then we were in for a shock. Our chandeliers, sewing machine, everything...they were not in working condition or I was not able to get them repaired or replaced. We ended up with nothing.

I still have it here...I didn't cash the cheque yet. On the back of the cheque is written,“You cash the cheque, you settle the claim.” This is baloney. This is wrong.

• 2035

I contacted Mr. Loehle in Mississauga. I believe he's the representative for the Canadian government. I was going nowhere with him. He contacted the truck driver. The truck driver told him we didn't want the team to come back to unpack. This is a lie.

On top of that, one of the truckers brought his 11-year-old son with him, and that 11-year-old boy was unpacking my crystal glasses. I was not too impressed. That's about the move.

Secondly, my husband got sick last year. After 29 years in the Canadian Forces, he never was sick or on sick leave before. He was trying to see a doctor. He was not able to see a doctor. He saw a medic. He was treated for stomach problems, heartburn. He was getting pills. On 4 November, after my husband was not even able to swallow food any more, I drove over Saturday morning to headquarters and I confronted the captain who was on duty. Thirty minutes later my husband was able to see Dr. Boyle, who was on duty that weekend.

On 5 December, my husband made it to Ottawa for special testing. He had stomach cancer. He received chemo. He was supposed to be operated on February 4. We drove to Ottawa on Monday afternoon. He did all the testing. The day before he was supposed to be operated on, at 4.15 in the afternoon, he was informed by Major Gowan that they would not operate the next morning. They didn't have the right equipment, according to one person who was going higher up on complaints.

We had to leave Ottawa. My husband got his operation on 17 February at the General Hospital. He's home. He's still alive.

We came back on 3 January from Ottawa, after my husband received chemo. He was advised by the doctor at the General to contact the surgeon here at the base as soon as possible after his arrival back in Petawawa.

The hospital was closed. Monday morning my husband tried to contact the secretary or the head surgeon, but he was not at work on Monday. He tried again on Tuesday morning. On Tuesday afternoon, somebody called back to inform him that he was not at work that day, but he would be back the next morning. Wednesday morning we were informed that the head surgeon was not making appointments.

This stinks. Let me tell you, I'm not too impressed with the whole system. I'm fed up. But I guess I'm not the only one. You do your best and you get screwed. That's the way it is these days in the Canadian Forces.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: You guys are all sitting here tonight and listening to me. I hope some of you guys will act. I sit in front of my TV and see another commission, another commission, another commission. I'm not blaming the Liberal Party. It was not better before. They are spending millions of dollars for commission after commission. I believe everybody in the military is hoping something will change. No.

• 2040

Is nobody responsible any more starting from the top? Forget it. I was told the Chief of Defence Staff was here last week. He refused to take questions. We don't need somebody like that on top. Our soldiers have to look up.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: Thank you.

The Chairman: A couple of MPs have questions. Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for your presentation. I trust your husband is getting proper treatment now, is he?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: Yes, from civilian doctors. I have to admit I met two very dedicated military doctors in Ottawa, but they told me, “I'm sorry; we can do nothing.”

Mr. Art Hanger: They have a base hospital here, do they?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: Oh yes, when it is open.

Mr. Art Hanger: When it's open?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: Yes.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: My husband's unit doctor is making me sick. I look in the newspaper and there he is. He is giving medical treatment to people in Yugoslavia right now. He was not able to look after my husband.

Mr. Art Hanger: Is this a common problem on this base?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: I don't know. I know only in my husband's case he was not able to see the doctor. He saw a medic, and he was getting pills for heartburn. He had no heartburn at all.

Mr. Art Hanger: This is the diagnosis that the doctor on base prescribed or determined?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: The medic, the medic. My husband was not even able to see a doctor. The doctor was on calls, the doctor was away; I don't know.

Mr. Art Hanger: And now you're going to civilian doctors where?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: At Ottawa General Hospital. He received his operation in Ottawa at the General Hospital. We are going back next Friday. He needs more chemo and radiation treatment.

Mr. Art Hanger: So in effect these are additional expenses in your lifestyle and your household. Is any of that—?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: It's not that much money. We are getting some money. When I stay in the hotel in Ottawa we get some money from the military; I believe it's $29 a day for expenses. But for me that's not the point. It's the stress, you know?

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes.

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: The whole thing, and you are on your own.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes, you have to fend and sort these problems out on your own.

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: Would nobody on the base be able to help you? Is no one on the base making it easier for you?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: At the beginning my husband had some phone calls, but now there's nothing.

Mr. Art Hanger: Is it a policy on this base or is it a policy in DND that the hospital is not open as a hospital 24 hours?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: I don't know. Most of the floors are closed. You go in there, you look around, and they are closed.

Mr. Art Hanger: So there's no staff in that hospital at this time?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: You have lots of staff.

A voice: After hours you have to go to Pembroke.

Mr. Art Hanger: After hours you go to Pembroke.

A voice: Yes. After 2300 hours we have to go into Pembroke, for us military. That's because of restructuring and everything like that, sir.

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: I don't know what to tell you. As I said, my husband was never sick. He had over 29 years in, and that's the first time he was sick.

Mr. Art Hanger: Generally is it a feeling that you're better treated and better served by civilian doctors as opposed to military?

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: I don't know about the other bases. I was very disappointed with the doctor and the treatment here at the base. As I said, in Ottawa the doctors and the nurses were excellent. I don't know about here. The civilians are not going to see those doctors here, and I'm glad.

Mr. Art Hanger: Before you go, I have another question in this area of moving. Of all the complaints that seem to be levelled when you move from one base to another, the way the moving companies handle your goods is—

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: It's terrible. They are telling you everything was over their shoulder and they are not removing it from the van. They are doing it to put down the paintings. Then they end up with not the right boxes, not the right packing material. Now your stuff is sitting on the floor in between the moving boxes. They are breaking stuff in your home, and they are hiding it.

• 2045

Mr. Art Hanger: What is the name of this moving company, the Devil's Brigade?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: A van line, United Van Lines.

Mr. Art Hanger: United Van Lines?

A voice: And MacCosham.

Mr. Art Hanger: So whoever contracts it out.

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: They are all the same. You can try here, and they promise you everything over the phone. Okay, put it on paper. You go nowhere; nobody is responsible any more.

In my case, the driver told me they made a lot of money on those moves before. Then the Canadian government decided it was too expensive. Now they are ending up with the problem. The truck driver was complaining to me that he was not even making money on the move. He said he makes more money when he moves a car than when he moves household furniture.

Mr. Art Hanger: They're low-balling the contract.

I heard before that when these contracts are issued, some of the moving companies actually fudged the weight of the goods inside the containers.

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: I don't know.

Mr. Art Hanger: You don't know? I understand it happens. Thank you very much.

The Chairman: This gentleman has something to say. Would you identify yourself, please.

Corporal Robert Wylie (Individual Presentation): Yes, I'm Corporal Wylie with 2RCHA.

Regarding the medical attention on the bases, in 1993 I collapsed with my heart just fluttering. That's all it was doing. My wife rushed me in to CFH Esquimalt. The nurses there would not phone the doctor; there was nothing wrong with me. It's now 1998, and thanks to the members of 3RCR's medical staff, they're starting to do something about it.

Mr. Art Hanger: So there's a—

Cpl Robert Wylie: Just to prove it.

Mr. Art. Hanger: Yes.

Cpl Robert Wylie: Right now they say there's nothing for me to worry about. They're just going to check it out. Hopefully something will get done about it.

If you're sitting at home and your heart starts fluttering, it's not a nice thing to have, especially when you have a wife who doesn't know CPR if something happens.

Mr. Art Hanger: The treatment you're receiving now, is it through the military base hospital or is it outside?

Cpl Robert Wylie: It's through 3RCR and NDMC.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

The next witness is Mrs. Betty Paquette.

Ms. Betty Paquette (Individual Presentation): Hello. I'm Ms. Betty Paquette and I'm going to talk about employment for spouses.

I think it was Mr. Hanger who was surprised that somebody who was 23 years in the forces didn't have the down payment for a house. I want to tell my side of the story.

When we got married, I was an X-ray technician. We had two wages coming in. We left Victoria, and we had the money for a down payment, in a reasonable area. We moved to Toronto. Well, we did not have enough money.

I'm in the type of job where I have to work every so often every five years or I lose my licence, and I'm in that situation now. Two years of that was due to pregnancy. For three years I could not find work due to the fact that I could not work in a hospital because I would have to be on call. I had two small children. I have to set up my lifestyle as a single parent. My husband is not there for me to depend on, not on a full-time basis. He might be there for two years, but I cannot depend on that.

I was up to my fifth year when we got posted to Petawawa. I quickly put my résumés out. There were two places where I could find employment. I'd been out for five years; they wouldn't hire me. I lost my licence.

I'm now looking at retraining for six months. I've figured it out. It would cost me close to $6,000, counting child care, and there's no guarantee I'm going to have a job afterwards. There are only two employers in this area.

In one case, I'm lucky. I'm in an area right here where they do the retraining in the hospital. I could have gone to some place like Cold Lake. We could have been posted there for four years. Then I would have totally lost my licence. That would have involved three years of retraining.

• 2050

Then you're surprised when we don't have money for a down payment. We've been dipping into our savings. We have nothing left. I think we need some type of subsidy for training of spouses for what they've lost.

Another reason a lot of people don't get down payments for houses is every time you move, you're on the bottom rung of the ladder. When I enter a hospital I start at the bottom. I have no chance of moving up because they know I'm a military spouse. They know I'm not going to be around. I don't get the training somebody else would get in that hospital.

This happens every four years. You get a little bit saved and you're posted again. You don't have a job, so you dip into your savings. It's a vicious cycle.

My other point, which was brought up already, is the pay raise. My husband is a master corporal. We see $60 a month. Of course, the rent is going up too. That's been said already.

On the medical part of it, I don't know if I'm right or not, but as a non-member I can see a doctor and if I don't like my doctor's diagnosis I can go to see another doctor. In the military, from what I understand, you see whoever is on duty or whoever is there. If you don't like the diagnosis, you're out of luck.

That's all I have to say.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit, do you have a question? Excuse me, Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: If you're a member of the military, can't you pick a doctor of your choice and have an examination?

Ms. Betty Paquette: No. You have to go to whoever is in that military hospital, as far as I understand. I could be wrong.

A voice: You're right.

Mr. Art Hanger: Everyone working in Petawawa would be under OHIP, the Ontario health plan.

Ms. Betty Paquette: Not the military personnel.

Mr. Art Hanger: But you are.

Ms. Betty Paquette: As a spouse we pay. We're the same as everybody else. We pay for medical coverage and dental, the same as every person on the street.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Master Corporal Stan Mercredi.

Master Corporal Stan Mercredi (Individual Presentation): Good evening. I've been in the military for 15 years, and I've seen a lot of things. People are just not impressed, and I'm definitely one of them.

The first item is the pay. I went from Germany to Quebec, and from 1992 until now we've seen our pay go from good right to the bottom of the pit. They expect us to keep our morale up with this little 0.17 or this 3.4 and things like that. This is not true.

Everybody in here, regardless of what trade they're in—infantry, air force—are all professionals. They should be getting paid as professionals.

It really makes me very upset when I look at all these people, and all they want to do is hope that somebody in here can put all these personnel together and say that it's time to stop the merry-go-round. Everybody here is dizzy from seeing people's faces going around and not remembering who said what.

These are all professionals. And damn it, they need the pay. And so do I. We deserve it. Nobody has the right to take all these professionals here who have decided to dedicate their lives to Canada, in Canada and in Bosnia.... I've been there.

I've been hearing from the commission that once the civilian pay raises go up, we'll have something to work at. Well, there's one thing committees don't understand or don't want to realize: we are on call 24 hours a day. A lot of these people are dedicated to their families, and they're torn between loving their families and loving their jobs. You're supposed to like your job but love your family first, because without your family's support you won't be anything.

• 2055

I know a lot of good people—ladies like this and the other ones. If it wasn't for their support of their husbands and their support when their husbands break down when they go home and say “I can't take it any more; I'm getting screwed around. What do I do?”.... Ladies like this tell them, “Hang in there. I know you're proud and I know you want to serve your country. Don't quit. You're not a quitter.” Well, damn it, we're tired of this. It's about time someone started doing something about it, because these people are getting really pissed off about it.

As I said, I've been in 15 years, and I love serving with the Canadian Forces. I'm very proud. Every time I hear the Canadian anthem I get goose bumps as if it's the first day I joined. I'm proud to wear the uniform. But I also want everybody to be able to look at themselves in the morning as professionals who are proud to be in the military because they're treated as professionals.

There's this whole idea of soldier first, technician second. All people here are professionals, not technicians. Without professionals in the forces you won't have any forces. It's about time these people started going from the bottom here and started being able to pick up their socks and everything, knowing they have the support of everybody around them in the community.

When you say you're in the forces, I'm proud. A lot of people don't want to say anything because it's a very sensitive subject. They know they're not proud because they're not getting support from the people who can see what it's doing to them, to the community and to the families.

The little children are saying “What's wrong with Daddy? Why is he crying?” How do you explain to a little one? It's very uncomfortable. I've been there and I've seen it happen to a lot of my really good friends who I don't see any more because you get posted from base to base and lose contact with them. All of a sudden you find out someone has left because he has had enough.

• 2100

What does that do to the family structure when the kids and the two parents can't work as a whole, an entity, when it's all been ripped apart? Because the one thing they focus on is working with the Canadian Forces and saying “I'm willing to put my life on the line for my country, so why can't my country put the life into me?”

Voices: Hear, hear!

MCpl Stan Mercredi: Enough has been said on that one.

The next one is my personal beef, and I have a lot of them. I'm six foot seven. I have a hell of a time going into supply and getting things. They look at me and say “We can sell you the box, but not the shoes”. Believe me, some of those boxes fit better than the boots.

Voices: Hear, hear.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: Everybody looks at themselves, and what they're wearing is how they feel about themselves. When they wear a uniform that fits properly where it's supposed to, people feel good about themselves. But when I have to go to supply and get a pair of combat shirts where the biggest sleeve comes up to here, and they have to say we have no money for clothing for you, what does this do to a person's morale? Thanks a lot.

I walk around—there's a string on your combat suit—it's up here, that's the string. The shirt is right there. The sleeves are right there. And I went to Bosnia and it was the same thing. I went there with no kit. I had no jacket. I had no boots. I had nothing at all. They said they were going to send it. They had none.

It's just a matter of letting you slide off to the side and saying don't worry about it, you're just a selected few. No. There are a lot of big people here on the base, in height and in girth, who want the proper kit. You hear about this stuff. We have no funds for the morale. And right now everybody would like to have something where it says at least one thing is going to be sorted out. And the clothing is my pet peeve, big time.

I was in Germany. I had crew suits. They took a big insert and put it right in the centre, but it looked like I got run over by a truck. I didn't like that. But they didn't have it in beige or anything. It was just one colour with two different colours of green. It looked pathetic. But you're supposed to be happy with what you have.

A lot of people are not happy with what they have. Our kit is ill-fitting. There's nothing in supply. You can walk into supply and there's a list right there. No jackets, no boots, none of this, none of this, none of that. And it's a normal standard.

It's not the supply. It's a matter of getting the funds to the people who need it. And when you look at all the combat arms bases, and how many people go through combat boots and clothes right up to the hoop, this is where they need the money big time. Because people are just tired of it. I don't like it.

Another thing—that point is finished—if it weren't for the support of a lot of these units here across Canada when their spouses are away, a lot of these families would not be together. I commend the people that have stood behind the people when their spouse is away and they don't have support. What do I do? Who do I go to? Here's a number. If it weren't for people like that in every base across Canada, who say “I am here, and regardless of how small I am, I'll give you everything I have to let you know that while your spouse is away you're not forgotten”....

Voices: Hear, hear.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: I haven't gone through the hardship of the lady with her husband, or the lady with the nightmare house. This has to stop. People have to start rectifying things. What are we doing overall to the morale? You increase our pay, our morale goes up. You take something away, you take away the money and you cannot look after your family, what do you do? A lot of families break up because they can't handle being a family any more. They end up moving away or the spouse says I can't take it any more; I need to take care of the kids. What do we do?

• 2105

If you look at the base and you look at the structure of what the Canadian Forces stand for, we're Canadians. But when it came down to operation recuperation at Winnipeg, boy, they were so happy: “Look, the Canadians”. We have our own personnel. When I was in Ottawa, with a lot of excellent personnel right across Canada, they went out there and they felt so good to be right there where they looked at you and they said thank you for being here, thank you, thank you. It makes you feel so good inside, because you're actually doing something for your country. It's time for our country to do something for us by bringing us up.

I have no more.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: On this issue of clothing, on the second tour over to Bosnia, when troops were going over the second time, there was an ad run in one of the local papers at one of the bases in the town looking for used clothes, hoping there were some out there maybe from retired personnel, I don't know. Recently I received another memo where there was an indication things were not serious but critical when it comes to clothing to be sent with the troops over to Bosnia on this next tour. Obviously the situation has been going on for some time. You can go over to the store here, and I know there are going to be something like 1,200 personnel going over to Bosnia pretty quickly—

MCpl Stan Mercredi: Roughly.

Mr. Art Hanger: Are they all fully equipped?

MCpl Stan Mercredi: No. They're going to go over on the assumption that we're going to send the kit to them.

Mr. Art Hanger: They're all going to go over—

MCpl Stan Mercredi: No, you have to look at the difference here. You can take half these people here, and we're not all the same size. If you look at the average Canadian, I kind of fit the bill of average Canadian in height only. They can go in there and say they need 1,200 Gore-Tex coats. They'll make a rough order and say we need x amount of size for this one, x amount of size for that. But they don't understand one thing. When you actually get those 1,200 people in one mass coming at you for kits, all of a sudden they have no kits. “We have nothing for you; it will be three months before we get you a jacket.”

Mr. Art Hanger: That may be for you, but what about for the others?

MCpl Stan Mercredi: I'm talking about three to six months for combat boots.

Mr. Art Hanger: Is that for everyone?

MCpl Stan Mercredi: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: What's the matter, can't they find a Canadian company that makes combat boots?

Corporal Carol McCabe (Individual Presentation): It's based on the assumption that the male and the females are—

The Chairman: Could you come to the microphone please and identify yourself?

Cpl Carol McCabe: I'm Corporal McCabe, from 2CER.

As I was saying, a woman can go in the clothing stores and it's like she's trying on a pair of men's pants or a man's shirt. The best thing you guys have ever done, whoever did it, is when that team from Quebec came down and actually took measurements and saw that every individual is made from every different size. They should incorporate what they learned on that study, because the study was taken from all over Canada and incorporated into the clothing they are buying for the military.

Mr. Art Hanger: So there is some kit as far as clothing available in the store over here?

Cpl Carol McCabe: No, they haven't brought that in yet. We're still wearing the same old clothing. Like my shirt: his shirt comes to here, mine goes to here.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: I want those shirts.

Mr. Art Hanger: What are they telling you?

Cpl Carol McCabe: They don't really say.

Mr. Art Hanger: What is the information you are receiving as to when you're going to be getting your new clothes?

MCpl Stan Mercredi: For myself they can say come back in a couple of months and we'll see if it changes. Supply can only do as much as the defence department wants to spend. If the defence budget is going to go from $11.2 billion to $9.4 billion, you'd be surprised what that money they're cutting would do for morale.

• 2110

As far I'm concerned, if I had a choice about what I could change right now overnight, it would have to be getting everybody what they should get, and that's the pay. The pay right now is the big thing. Pay will bring everybody up to saying fine, let's tackle one thing at a time. But the clothing is another ball game. You know, that old saying “The cheque's in the mail” really applies here.

Mr. Art Hanger: You don't know when this clothing is going to come.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: we don't know when it'll be there, and they don't give you an indication of when the stuff comes in. They say that if it comes in, we should just come around and all. As it stands right now, when you go into supply and you have a pair of combat boots, there is no exception unless you're on rotation, and that's it. If you're down to the two pairs of combat boots to which you're entitled, and you walk out with one pair that's good, that's all you have. While you have one, they will not do anything about it because they don't have any supplies.

Mr. Art Hanger: When you began your presentation, you made mention that you wanted to inform this committee. You wanted to inform us that there have been lots of studies, there has been a lot of information flow over the problems, the shortcomings, relating to personnel and DND. You wanted to make sure that point came across, and I think you were quite effective in delivering that point. What do you think this committee is going to be able to do for you? What do you want this committee to do?

MCpl Stan Mercredi: I don't think I have to spell it out any more than I already have, but what I want—

Mr. Art Hanger: All right, then let's put it this way: What do you think this committee is capable of doing?

MCpl Stan Mercredi: What am I hoping this committee is capable of doing? I'll use the word “hope”. We appreciate 3.4. That's the start of actually saying that maybe somebody is starting to hear the yelling out there. Sometimes you have to say the silence is deafening. We feel some of our stuff is falling on deaf ears because nothing is being done. Things are starting to roll slowly, but not fast enough. I would like to see this committee saying all right, there've been enough commissions, let's butt heads together because we have to come to resolve things right now.

We're not just speaking for Petawawa, we're speaking for 60,000 military and about 40,000 dependants. If you look at it, that's 100,000 personnel overall who reflect Canada for what we are. We're supposed to be proud and willing to follow anybody into battle as long as we believe we're being led in the right direction. We don't want to be led back.

We're tired of taking one step forward and two steps back and being told to be happy. I would like to see this committee actually saying that enough is enough, that you're tired of spending the taxpayers' money, that it's time to get down to the issues, that you've heard enough about it and it's time to get on with it. That's the way I feel. Pay, clothing, morale, family—these things are what the forces stand for, and we're willing to put our lives and our families on the line. They support us, and I hope Canada supports us when we go to support it.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Are you done, Mr. Hanger?

Mr. Art Hanger: Not quite.

If it was up to just about everyone on this committee, I think that's exactly what we would do, but I don't see this committee having those kinds of powers or teeth.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: Okay, now I'm befuddled. I'm befuddled to the point of wondering, why are you here?

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Art Hanger: That's a good question, and I'm sure the chairman will have some additional comments to make. As a committee, all we can do is make recommendations on what we picked up across this country.

A voice: Now you're passing the buck!

Mr. Art Hanger: I'm not trying to pass the buck. I'm trying to explain to you how this committee is working, and I know the chairman is going to be able to take that a step forward and probably explain it even further.

• 2115

MCpl Stan Mercredi: Yes, I totally understand. It's very easy for people to get very irate right now, because we're actually at that point where it's time to do something. We were hoping that the committee we're looking at here is one of twelve very intelligent people who can actually have a say in how the Canadian Forces treat their personnel. This is what we're looking for.

We want people to be able to say, “Do you remember the last committee that came here in 1998? Damn, they were good!” We don't have very much pull, but with the twelve of you put together, you guys have a lot of pull and you have the support of all the Canadian Forces behind you. This is what I'm getting at. You have 100,000 military or civilian dependants behind you who will back you. We will not go against anything that we've done and said, because if you act on what we're asking you to act on, we will back you. We will say yes, they did something, and we will back you up right to the wall.

We want this committee to start doing something on the aspect of saying it's now time to do something. Don't say you guys don't have very much pull. You have a lot of pull. That's why you're here.

Mr. Art Hanger: We appreciate your appeal. That's what we're here for: to listen, to certainly record all that information in a very definite fashion, and to present it to Parliament and to the minister. That's one of the reasons we're here. As a committee, and as desirous as we may be in terms of wanting to make some very definite changes happen, we will push as hard as we can. As opposition members, we certainly will push as hard as we can, and we will work on it in that fashion.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: I understand, but what I'm trying to say is that of all the recommendations that have been put on this table and the tables before, tackle one at a time. If you accomplish one, the load gets lighter and you go to the next. People want to see a progression in change, not a progression in stalling. This is what we feel right now.

Mr. Art Hanger: I read you loud and clear.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: This is all I'm trying to get at. Everybody here wants to be treated like a person, not a number. It's not serving number 24, it's serving 60,000 personnel and 40,000 dependants who will stand behind their spouses and boyfriends and girlfriends and will say they're proud to be Canadians and they want Canadians to be proud of them for who they are. These people are all professionals, and they deserve everything in their life because they have worked hard at it.

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel:

[Editor's Note: Inaudible].

The Chairman: I'm sorry, but could you come to the microphone, please, and identify yourself?

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: My name is Marguerita Bargiel.

I have to think back to when our defence minister, David Collenette, resigned. Art Eggleton was then appointed, but before he was appointed the rumour was going around that Allan Rock was supposed to be taking over the job. It was not a pleasant job. Nobody wanted the job. Since 1993, we have had Marcel Masse, Kim Campbell.... Who was the next one?

A voice: I didn't realize there were so many of them.

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: Anyway, there was Collenette and then Eggleton. Oh, and there was Doug Young. He was a feisty one. Everybody seemed to be impressed with him. I was. He was outspoken, and it's too bad he was not re-elected. He did not stay too long, so now we have Art Eggleton. How long is he staying in the job? Is he able to take the pressure? Maybe for six more months, but then we'll be getting on to the next one. Art Eggleton was the mayor of Toronto before. What do these people know about the military?

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Marguerita Bargiel: Maybe we will be lucky enough to get somebody who knows something about the military the next time. I hope so.

The Chairman: We'll get Mr. Richardson.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: I have one more point that I want to emphasize here.

The Chairman: Very quickly.

MCpl Stan Mercredi: That one more point is the fact that we are losing so many good technicians. It's not due to attrition; they're just fed up with the system. We should retain those, for that's what we're supposed to stand for: professionalism and technicians all in one, doing the same job for Canada. Let Canada stand behind us, and we'll stand behind it.

Voices: Hear, hear!

• 2120

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Gavin Cross.

Corporal Gavin Cross (Individual Presentation): Good evening, sirs. I wish to express my thanks to the powers that be that have allowed me and all of us here tonight to express our views in an honest way.

I'm not much of a public speaker, so with your permission I will read a few notes I've jotted down in my book.

First off, I want to say how proud I am of my country and how lucky I feel to be a soldier in this military. My thoughts this evening are not going to be followed by solutions, because these are all feelings, feelings about the crap we've all gone through for years. But these feelings are important to me, so I'm going to say them anyway.

I have two concerns to bring forward. One, as a career soldier, I feel I have the right to expect to be promoted within a reasonable amount of time. I've been a soldier for nine years, and I'm qualified for the next level of advancement, but I do not expect to be promoted, and will not be promoted, for at least the next six or seven years. That is 15 or 16 years at the rank of corporal.

The next rank level is master corporal, which is also a junior management position. I'm not trying to say I'm a super soldier. I'm not even trying to say I'm the best corporal in the regiment. Many of my colleagues here tonight or at home have that distinction. They are more deserving than I. But I'm a good soldier and I know I would make a good leader.

In my career I've seen master corporals go to the rank of warrant. I've seen warrants go the rank of sergeant major. I've seen majors go to the rank of lieutenant-colonel. I've seen lieutenant-colonels go to the rank of general. But not one of the soldiers I went through military training with has ever made it past the rank of corporal.

In conclusion, cutbacks at bases and in manpower in the military have created a severe imbalance in my regiment. I can't speak for any other regiment.

The old soldiers are getting older, and they're staying in the regiment. Young soldiers are becoming disillusioned, and they're getting tired of waiting.

Here's my second problem. As I said, I've been in the military for some time now. I'm a father, and I'm almost 30 years old. Though my wife may say I'm sometimes not responsible, my bosses seldom do. I'm not perfect, and have made many mistakes. I've been overseas many times. I've been shot at. I've been shelled. I expect to go through it again. That's my job. I've always been able to rely on my superior training to get me through that.

Sir, I appeal to you to stop treating us like kids. Ever since the Somalia affair, the atmosphere in the military has become rank with fear about mistakes being made.

In ice storm '98, for example, we worked 14 to 16 hours a day and weren't even able to look at a beer. A recent exercise in the United States saw us confined to barracks at one point. When I say “barracks ”, I mean a building with a big auditorium. We weren't even allowed to walk two blocks to a phone call for fear somebody might get drunk and hurt someone. This was done in retribution for two or three guys going out and drinking. They didn't got out and get drunk. They didn't go out and cause fights. They went out drinking.

Since when is it army and governmental policy to punish Joe because John screwed up? Treat us like the adults we are. I've gone to work with honour in my heart and pride in my step, but I feel as though I'm being treated with dishonour, and my morale is low.

Thank you.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Thank you.

• 2125

Master Corporal Monique Perry (Individual Presentation): Hello. My name is Master Corporal Monique Perry, and I don't know that gentlemen, but he's telling you the truth and I commend him for his bravery in standing up to his superiors.

I have been in the service for nineteen years. I've been stationed on seven bases. I got here in the summer of 1997.

The treatment of the junior soldiers at CFB Petawawa is an abuse by the superiors.

Voices: Hear, hear.

MCpl Monique Perry: The junior soldiers keep silent because of the punishment, the discipline, and just because of the fact that if they go forward, they have to return to their units, and who knows what will be done to them by their superiors?

That young man should get a medal of bravery.

Voices: Hear, hear.

MCpl Monique Perry: Art Eggleton, the Minister of National Defence, knows my name very well. In October 1997 I documented the abusive situation through a redress of grievance and a personal abuse of authority procedures, outlined in the CFAOs and the QR and Os. Two military investigations were conducted. The outcome, the truth, did not surface. Events were filtered through and the superiors denied all ten allegations.

I hired a civilian lawyer in Pembroke. My case was brought to the RCMP, and in case there is any doubt as to what I'm saying, the RCMP is conducting an investigation, which is to commence next month. I'm a born-again Christian and I have the Bible in one hand, a lawyer in the other, and a case being investigated by the RCMP. That should speak for itself, sir.

Not only that, if any of those ten allegations are found to be truthful, I just hope that appropriate disciplinary action is taken.

These young soldiers are victims of mental cruelty, physical abuse and verbal abuse, and it's like a network of crime. The warrant officers, right up to the lieutenant-colonel rank, back each other up and stick to the same story. My lawyer tells me it's the same thing as the Somalia case, only on different soil. We will see at the end of the RCMP investigation who was telling the truth, myself, a born-again Christian, or ten superior officers on this base.

Are there any questions?

The Chairman: Are there any questions for Corporal Perry?

• 2130

MCpl Monique Perry: I've even gone so far as to have this aired on CHRO television, in case any of you have seen it. It was broadcast at least four times. It was also on television in Edmonton. I'm prepared to go right to the CBC if that's the price to pay for justice.

Yes, I have to return to the office tomorrow. Who knows what will happen next?

The Chairman: Just coming back to Corporal Cross, if there are no questions for Corporal Cross, I want to thank you right away.

Cpl Gavin Cross: You're welcome. I've never been abused at work.

The Chairman: The next one on the list is Master Corporal Monique Perry. Do you have anything else to add?

MCpl Monique Perry: If you have any questions, I'm free and willing to answer anything you have.

The Chairman: I guess you made your case quite clear. Thank you.

MCpl Monique Perry: Thank you, sir.

The Chairman: Corporal Tom Paisley.

Corporal Tom Paisley (Individual Presentation): Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I have a few points.

First, my dad put 38 years into the military, he swore me into the military, and the reason he got out of the military was because of the military. Suppose we start off that way.

One thing I'd like to talk about is CF dress. Last year I paid $89 for a summer CF jacket and $95 for a winter jacket. I only get $17 a month for upkeep allowance. There goes that for at least a couple of years. Then they got rid of the summer dress. What's going on? Who will pay for my summer dress now? I've lost $89.

Also, the PMQ rules should be the same across Canada. I came from Calgary. When I left Calgary people were getting PMQ reductions for noise, for where they lived on the base because of the road, and for basements leaking. When I got here I was told they don't rent the basement. Well wait a minute, it's part of the house. How do you not rent the basement?

I have another point about military dress. I have talked to reservists who got into the military and I've talked to reservists outside the military. They get to exchange their CF dress, without having to pay for it. Yet I have to pay for it. They get to exchange their socks and their T-shirts, yet I have to pay for them. The way they reason it is they're not in the military. Wait a minute. Don't they have city jobs they're being paid for as well? They're also being paid by the military to be in the reserves.

I just came from NDMC and my operation was this morning. I asked if I could leave so I could get here for this. They have five floors in NDMC and only 40 beds open. That's what the nurse told me. It's not called NDMC any more, it's called HCC, Health Care Centre.

I've heard about another thing since I've been in the military and my dad heard it when he was in the military. It's called lateral trade progression, which means you get paid for what you know—for the courses you take—and not for the rank you're in. So people like myself, who watch the master corporal and the sergeant run ragged, don't want their master corporal rank. As a vehicle tech, as a mechanic, I can get all the courses I can in the military to work on all the equipment and get paid for being able to work on the floor, not being paid to have to shuffle papers all the time and have to worry about everything else. I want to work on the floor. That's why I really joined, to be a mechanic, to work on the floor. I never want to get my master corporal.

• 2135

And who decides what vehicles we buy? We bought the LSVW. I know three people personally who were on the committee that tested the LSVW and told them not to buy it. We go out on exercise and we have to come into a hide quietly. What's the first thing you hear? It's the LSVW brakes squeaking. And we can't fix it. It's ridiculous. So now we pull into a hide and we have to leave right away. Gee, that's quiet.

Another thing I have to bring up is why do I have to pay for the base gym? I'm a military brat. I never paid for the base gym until I got here, and now I have to pay $7 a month to use the base gym. I can see people coming from off-base paying for the gym. I pay into my mess and everything else, but I shouldn't have to pay for the base gym.

Why is it that every time we get a pay increase or a pay incentive, the PMQ rent goes up? One year in Calgary, April came and I got a PMQ raise; I got my incentive in June, and my PMQ went up again. I went in to complain and they said “Sorry, it's because the year came in, and then you got your incentive, so your PMQ rent has to go up again.” That's ridiculous.

That's all.

The Chairman: Mr. Richardson, do you have a question?

Mr. John Richardson: I'm very interested in the last comment you made. You had your PMQ rent raised because you went up an increment in qualification?

Cpl Tom Paisley: Yes.

Mr. John Richardson: Is that across the board, for everyone here, that when you get an incremental increase you automatically get your...?

A voice:

[Editor's Note: Inaudible].

Mr. John Richardson: Thanks very much.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Diane Cawley.

Ms. Diane Cawley (Individual Presentation): Good evening.

I would like to say that I've just recently retired from the military after 26 years of service as a chief warrant officer, so I'm coming at this now as a retired person but with a little bit of military experience.

The first point I'd like to make is about the military legal system. I call it the legal system, whereas many times I hear it referred to as the justice system. I try not to do that. I believe their purpose and their job is to dispense justice. Sometimes I find that sadly lacking in our system.

There was a review done recently, within the last six to twelve months, by an independent committee, one of them being a retired military member. In their final comments they made the remark that during their base tours they were shocked or surprised that a number of junior people had said that there was a double standard and that the rules were not equally applied to junior ranks, senior NCOs, and officers.

In my own personal opinion, if you've been in the military for longer than two weeks, you know there's a double standard.

I believe recent events involving Colonel Vanier only serve to reinforce that there is a double standard.

• 2140

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Diane Cawley: I would submit to you that if it were a corporal or even a sergeant who went AWOL for 12 days unexplained, he would not go to a hospital under the care of a family friend, a civilian physician; he'd be out in FDB in Edmonton doing something with toothbrushes.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Diane Cawley: I read the reports in the paper quite consistently; I try to keep track of them all. I found one particular report recently about Colonel Vanier very disturbing. I think I was supposed to have sympathy for this man because now he would never realize his dream of being a general.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Ms. Diane Cawley: I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for Colonel Vanier.

Going along with that and talking about colonels and generals and stuff like that, I want to talk a little bit about the CDS's visit last week, which I personally believe did nothing but decrease morale on this base. The comments made, the comments I heard after.... Unfortunately I wasn't at either the briefing or the presentation after, but I got a pretty good rundown on what was said.

One of the things the CDS talked about was the fact that he believes we have the best officers and the best leadership. I find that very difficult to believe, and I think most people would find that a little bit hard to believe after Colonel Vanier, who of course got his bonus last year too.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Diane Cawley: One of the other comments I heard the CDS made when he was here last week.... I'm not sure if it was when he was going into the senior NCOs' and warrant officers' mess or into the officers' mess to do some presentations, but he looked around the parking lot outside and said, “Well, from the looks of the cars out here, it seems everybody in Petawawa must be doing well”. I find that a little bit of a slap in the face as well.

I'd like to make a quick comment on EI benefits, employment insurance. It was mentioned once or twice. I'd like to say there should be some kind of system in the military where when you reach 20 years and your pension is enough so that you cannot draw EI, then you should quit paying it, or at least pay a minimum base or something like that. This is ludicrous. You do 26 years, you pay into it for 26 years, and you can't draw a penny out of it. I don't mind helping people out, but that's kind of weird.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Diane Cawley: I'd like to make a quick comment on the lateral progression. The last fellow brought it up too. There was a force that did a study on that; I think it lasted about eight years. This was 10 or 15 years ago. It was called a task force, and it was on lateral progression. It was a total waste of time, money, and effort, because nothing ever came out of it. They said it was impossible to do lateral progression. I'm not sure how they figured that out after about eight years and a whole bunch of money, but I would say there must be some way people can be given incentives for trade base or experience base without being promoted into leadership roles—going trade rather than leadership.

The last thing I'd like to talk about is my quality of life and a personal experience. It has to do with an article I read in Defence Matters, volume 2, number 3, April 1997, where it professes that DND is a world leader in harassment prevention due to zero tolerance and effective policies against harassment.

I would like to tell you that before I left the military, I submitted on 18 July 1997 a harassment complaint. Between 18 July and 16 October a number of phone calls and little letters went back and forth between people. On 16 October I submitted 12 pages of specific dates, times, places, witnesses, etc., all in accordance with CFAO 19-39, which I now know almost verbatim, I'm sure.

Having not heard anything between 16 October and 30 October—there was a 14-day rule in there, covered in paragraph 40—I called what they now call the corporate services officer. They have nice names in NDHQ for all these people, and they keep changing them every month, so you never know who you're talking to. I asked what was going on.

Between the period of 30 October and 5 January, I spoke to this same person a minimum of five times to ask what was going on with my harassment complaint. The only answer I could ever get was, “We had cutbacks on staff. We moved furniture. I'm not sure. I don't know why it took three weeks to get across the hall to my office.”

• 2145

I'm out, by the way. I've been out since 27 December, so maybe they thought they'd get lucky and I'd die or something, but unfortunately I haven't.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Ms. Diane Cawley: On 19 February I called my assisting officer, who is in Ottawa still. She was supposed to call me. She never called me.

The bottom line is that on 25 March I spoke to someone here in Petawawa, who went to a captain here in Petawawa on 2 April, and I still haven't got even a phone call, let alone an investigation.

The CFAO states in paragraph 7 that every member has the right—the right—to have any incident of harassment dealt with in an expeditious, impartial, and sensitive manner, without fear of retaliation. I submit to you that my quality of life has suffered greatly and that my right to that impartial, expeditious, fair, and sensitive investigation has been denied and continues to be denied.

Thank you.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MCpl Monique Perry: She is speaking the truth.

The Chairman: Monsieur Benoit, I believe you had a question.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes, I have a couple of questions for you. The first one has to do with the comment that was apparently attributed to the Chief of Defence Staff, saying we have the best officers in the Canadian military. You made a comment that you disagree with that. You think that's completely out of line.

When you think of officers, and when you're making that comment, what level of officers are you referring to?

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Ms. Diane Cawley: Normally we divide into what we call junior NCOs and senior NCOs, or non-commissioned members, they call them now. They used to call them NCOs, non-commissioned officers. An officer, in my way of thinking, is second lieutenant and above, officer cadet and above.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So you're painting with a broad brush, in a very negative way, officers right from second lieutenant up.

Ms. Diane Cawley: If his comment was—and that was his comment—that in the broad perspective of things we have the best, then I guess I would have to say yes, it's my opinion that we don't, in the broad sense.

Mr. Leon Benoit: In a briefing this morning, I believe it was the base commander who said that sometimes these generalizations are made, but when you ask people, “Are you referring to so-and-so? Are you referring to the people who work with you here?”, they all answer no. People are referring to somebody else, somewhere else. Is that what you're doing?

Ms. Diane Cawley: I could probably give you some names from the past or whatever, but I believe the CDS's comment was in the broad scope of things. He was saying we have the best leadership, we have the best officers. I assume he was talking about officer cadets as well as second lieutenants as well as generals.

Mr. Leon Benoit: And you're not going to narrow that down any more?

Ms. Diane Cawley: I don't think so at this point.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay. That's the first.

The second is to do with this harassment you're talking about. Are you talking about a very blatant harassment or are you talking about a very subtle harassment? I'm just trying to get an idea of what you're referring to.

Ms. Diane Cawley: I alleged that there was abuse of authority and personal harassment, and possible gender discrimination.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So you're saying the harassment is based on gender.

Ms. Diane Cawley: Possible gender discrimination.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Do you feel quite certain that in fact it is gender discrimination, or could it be your interpretation, really, of that?

Ms. Diane Cawley: It could be. That's why I said “possible”. And that's what the complaint says as well. It's based on what I consider personal harassment, abuse of authority on the part of this individual, and possible gender discrimination.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay, I was just trying to get a little bit better idea of what you're referring to.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Corporal Michael Hulbert.

• 2150

Corporal Michael Hulbert (Individual Presentation): I'm Corporal Hulbert, and I've been in the military for 14 years. For 10 of those years, I've been an infanteer.

The big problem in this military today is discipline. Fitness is also another thing.

We've got guys in St-Jean right now who will pull out their little card if an instructor comes aboard them. They'll tell them they have to back off. What is this? We're not children. We don't do time-outs. You get into the military and you go through an initiation. It's your indoctrination into the service. You go through so much crap and so much pressure to see if you're going to take it out there on the battlefield. When you get higher up, that's when you can be treated a little bit better. But that's your indoctrination.

As for the fitness, if you can't do a thirteen-kilometre march with a rucksack, then you shouldn't be in this army.

Voices: Hear, hear.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: We used to go two by sixteen with a rucksack. Sometimes we had time limits of two and a half hours or two hours and fifteen minutes. If you can't do that, how the hell are you going to be able to carry your own men out of the battlefield, if you have to retreat, or let's say, do a tactical withdrawal? If you can't do that, then you've got no business being in here.

I know they dropped the standard. I have nothing against women, but I don't know any woman who wants to be in combat arms. If you do, you're crazy. You know what I'm saying?

Voices: Hear, hear.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: If you do want to be in it, then you should be up here with the standard of the men, not down there. Because when they lowered the standard for the women, they lowered the standard for the men, and it brought the weaker men in too.

That's all I have to say.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger, do you have a question?

Mr. Art Hanger: When you indicate that there are two different standards, are you talking about fitness levels or standards for women and men?

Cpl Michael Hulbert: Not now, they dropped it.

Mr. Art Hanger: I'm just asking about the standard. I was asking whether there are two different standards for women and men.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: Not any more. They dropped the standard down so women could get into combat arms.

Mr. Art Hanger: Oh, I see.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: I don't know why some general up in Ottawa felt that women should be coming into combat arms. My wife doesn't want to go out on the front lines there. I don't think any other woman here wants to do that either.

We go through a lot of crap out there. There's a reason for it: it's so that we can protect this country and do as our country asks us to do.

Mr. Art Hanger: When you say they dropped the standard, what was the standard and what has changed in it?

Cpl Michael Hulbert: You had to do a mile and a half in under twelve minutes. You had to be able to carry a person of a weight equal to yours for a hundred metres. They don't do that now.

We do rucksack marches. Right now, the rucksack march is thirteen kilometres. That's only seven miles. We used to do two by sixteens, which used to be called two by tens. We had to carry our rucksacks two days in a row for ten miles. If you can't do this, and they lower the standards....

Plus there's this thing they're doing in the recruit school now. The recruits pulling out have time-out cards. What's this? If I were an instructor in that recruit school now and a recruit pulled a time-out card on me because I was coming aboard him to see if he could take it to get into the military, I'd be all over him.

Voices: Hear, Hear.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: Say he's going to pull a time-out card because he can't take the stress. I'm not going to be able to pull a time-out card when the enemy is coming at me with their shells and bullets, am I?

I think it's about time that we were all treated like adults and got on with the business we have at hand, which is to protect our country.

Mr. Art Hanger: This time-out card is something new to me. Explain it.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: It's an anti-stress thing for the new recruits. If I'm under too much stress, I can pull out my card and the instructor has to back off. When I joined, the instructor didn't back off. He was all over your frame, and if you screwed up, you got in trouble for it.

Mr. Art Hanger: This is the regular procedure, if you will, in recruit class now?

Cpl Michael Hulbert: Yes. We are bringing in nothing but a bunch of weak people into our service. We don't need weak people.

Voices: Hear, Hear.

• 2155

Mr. Art Hanger: I agree.

When did this specific time-out issue start?

Cpl Michael Hulbert: I work over at the base hospital in medical records. I just cleared in a warrant officer who just came from there. I asked about that and he said yes. It's just in the last two years that they've been doing that.

Mr. Art Hanger: The last two years.

I have another question that I want to ask you. You seem to feel that there's a real decrease in the disciplinary aspects of the military

Cpl Michael Hulbert: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: Can an officer yell at a subordinate and poke him?

Cpl Michael Hulbert: If an officer or a senior in the field pokes me, he's going to get decked.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Voices: Hear, hear.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. All I'm asking is if he can yell at a subordinate and—

Cpl Michael Hulbert: If a subordinate uses his initiative and makes a mistake, he learns from it, but if he makes a mistake that's going to cost people's their lives and cost us equipment, he deserves to be yelled at.

Mr. Art Hanger: Sure, it's going to happen.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: And this has not been taken away from the military disciplinary procedures, if you will.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: I figure that people who are well disciplined have nothing to complain about. And we are not well disciplined now. We're losing it because we have too many young people in the ranks who are not staying long enough in that particular rank and they still have their apron strings on.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. Thanks.

Voices: Hear, hear.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Corporal David Sheppard.

Corporal David Sheppard: Hi. This is my second time up tonight. I just want to make a few little minor statements.

Up until last year, in our PMQs—if you can keep them up around your head, that is—the parking lots in the winter.... I went through three shovels last year trying to clear the parking lot so I could get out and go to work. The government decided they'd be special and clean it once in the winter, because the ruts were so big that your small cars couldn't get out of the parking lot, and once in the spring, because when it melted the ice was so thick you couldn't get anywhere anyway. But this year they cleaned it eight times. Hallelujah! At least you knew they were coming...great.

What I said say about pay before...well, pay is nice. I like it and you like it. You probably get paid more than I do—hallelujah! But as a vehicle tech, which I am, I spend a lot of time on my back—and I don't mean sleeping.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Cpl David Sheppard: I am not a big guy, but I work my buns off—on and off the job—because I have three kids. I don't have a mortgage yet, but I'm hoping to, because I want my own four walls, peace and quiet and peace of mind. Maybe then I'll be a happy man.

• 2200

It's no fault of yours, but I know $67,000 a year, with your pension—not you, Colonel Vanier. I'd be pretty happy with that. I don't make $40,000 a year, but you know, that's life.

As far as lateral progression is concerned, that's fine and dandy. That's a hard choice to make, though. It's a hard way to go about that.

With regard to infanteers and combat arms, that's their job, and I have nothing against that. But our side of the house is technical. The government buys junk and they expect people like me to keep it going. We do, because the Canadians are great at improvising, overcoming and adapting.

When they say metric bolts I put standard in, because that's what I have. I can't get any metric bolts the right size. Noboby will buy them, and if they do, they won't be the right grade.

That's like this LSVW we have. Yeah, Kim Campbell bought it, and where's she now?

Bombardier gives us skidoos. Yeah? Where are they now? We now have Ski-Doo skidoos, which is still made by Bombardier, but at least they're new. They'll last a few years before they disintegrate.

The general feeling of the military today is, yeah, I got in, and it's a job. I'm here. Take care of me. I find this a lot from the young guys.

I have been in this business for 13 years. I've been on that side of the fence. I've been on this side of the fence. I love both. But I need something to do when I retire in about seven years, when I'm 39 years old. When I'm retired I'll make about $20,000 a year on my pension, if I'm lucky.

So I still have to get a second job. My pension will cover my mortgage, but I still have to go to work because my kids have to go to college. I can have the lesser of two evils. My kids can go to college or I can have a house. Do I tell them, “Oh, well, next time the government gives me a raise”? I can't say that to my kids. They deserve better. They deserve more.

There are only 60,000 soldiers, because we're soldiers first and tradespeople second. Everybody has to survive on and off the battlefield. That's not to say that anybody is better than anybody else. We have to go to school for our QL3 for two or three or six months, sometimes a little longer. Nowadays it's shorter, like everything else under budget restraint. Then you go on your QL4 training, which may be anywhere from eighteen months to four years. Then you go back to school again for another six months.

Unless you're QL5-qualified, you don't get to go on any UN tours. You don't get any of the juicy jobs, because you're not qualified. I don't know about you, but anybody who fixes this stuff is more than qualified. They've done it. They've paid their dues.

I don't want a cushion on my seat so that when I sit down I don't hurt my fanny. I don't mind getting hurt. It's part of the job. I just want things that work. Things will break, yes, because we are the military, and they're not used like normal vehicles. We treat them like crap because they have to drive like crap. If you find a six-foot hole, I'm sorry, your Civic's not going to make it.

So keep it simple across the board. Give us vehicles that work. They gave us an LS vehicle. What was wrong with Ford, Dodge, Chev, or whatever? HMMWV—yes, that's a good one. At least it's Chrysler-made, General Motors.

• 2205

We just want stuff that works over time, not patch-it jobs like the LS. Give us stuff that works, not 30 years old like our radios are. We were going to get the new radios three years ago. Well, we didn't get them yet.

We want clothing and stuff that's quality. I've changed my boots six times in the last three months. The first two pairs were simply worn out; they were good. I got two more pairs, and within a week all four boots were defective. They were falling apart. I went to change them again. I opened one out of the box, and I got a hole I could fit my finger through. It was, “Oh, that's good to go; that's not all the way through; you can keep that. And by the way, I don't have any 8-1/2Es, so you might as well keep it anyway.”

It's not big things that piss people off; it's little things that keep building and building and all of a sudden you explode and everything comes out. Nothing gets solved, but everybody's heard it.

I wanted to get that off my chest, and I thank you for your time and your questions.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger, I believe you have a question.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes, I do.

Your trade is as a mechanic?

Cpl David Sheppard: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: And you work on the—what is it—LS?

Cpl David Sheppard: I work on anything and everything that moves, or doesn't move.

Mr. Art Hanger: I'm particularly interested in two vehicles. Bombardier makes a small...whatever it's called. And the other one is an LSVW, is it?

Cpl David Sheppard: Light support vehicle wheels.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay, and do they require a lot of maintenance?

Cpl David Sheppard: They require maintenance before they come off the assembly line. The doors are probably closed now.

Mr. Art Hanger: So it would make your job easier if there were some vehicles that you didn't have to maintain as much.

Cpl David Sheppard: Not necessarily “maintain as much”. They're going to get broken because of the way they're driven. It's nobody's fault.

But we're in Canada. We might as well buy something Canadian, or at least North American, so that you can go down to the corner dealership and grab a part, a local purchase.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes. That's good. Thanks.

Cpl David Sheppard: You're welcome.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Private Bill Nachuk.

Private Bill Nachuk (Individual Presentation): Good evening. So far tonight, you've heard from people from the PMQs and the families. I'm here representing those living in the single shacks here on the base. I just have a few small points to mention about that.

First of all, there are ten rooms per mod, and at this point they're putting in two people per room. Those rooms are small. You have about five or six feet between those two beds and maybe three feet from the foot of the bed to the wall. Personally, I came up here with my stuff and I still have five boxes packed in my room because I don't have enough room to unpack all my stuff. I'm not the only one like that.

As well, they're mixing smokers with non-smokers. That's causing a lot of controversy and problems within those mods. It's causing friction between the roommates.

As well, in my mod right now, we have 15 people. In the basement of that mod, we have one washer and one dryer for 15 people. In other mods you could have up to 20 people per mod, with one washer and one dryer for us to use.

This week our entire mod was on our field exercise. We were out five days. You had 15 people coming back from this exercise trying to do their laundry with one washer and one dryer. Go figure.

I got here in January. We're lucky if we get our mod vacuumed once a month. I am the rep for that mod. I have phoned, begged and pleaded to get either someone to vacuum it like they're supposed to, or if they can't, if they don't have time, fine, give us a vacuum so we can do it. No luck—no money.

• 2210

As a sergeant and a few other people mentioned about mandatory things you have to pay for, as soon you clear in and get your room, you're told you're paying $10 a month for cable. That's cheap, if you have a TV. If you don't have a TV, you're screwed, because you're paying $10 a month anyway. If there are two of you in the room, you're both paying $10 for cable. If you both have a TV, well, fight over who's watching what. If you both don't have a TV, you're doubly screwed, because you're paying $20 for nothing.

To you guys, $10 may not seem like a lot, but if you're only a private who just got his course, like some of the guys are in there, you can't afford $10 here, $7 there, and $20 here. It adds up.

Basically I just wanted to bring that to your attention on behalf of the people living in the same quarters here. If you want to go through there, I'll show you the size of those rooms and the shape they're in. We clean them as well as we can, but if you have no cleaning supplies and no vacuum cleaner.... Personally I'll be damned if I'm going to spend my hard-earned money buying stuff that is supposed to be there for us anyway.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Patty. Is there a Patty here?

Ms Patty X (Individual Presentation): You were just asking about the medical in the military. Why is it that when our soldiers go on a UN tour and become disabled, they come back and do not receive the proper care?

My husband has been in the forces for 18 years, and served his country. Three years ago he was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, a medical problem that he and numerous other soldiers have had to bear with for years. The disorder is comparable to what a lot of American soldiers suffered after the Vietnam conflict to one degree or another. This is the same illness.

Our soldiers are left to suffer the torments of this condition, not to mention the hell families are forced to endure as they watch the ones they love reduced to mental and physical wrecks. All that these soldiers who have served their country faithfully have to look forward to is mediocre medical attention, at the best a small pension if someone deems their problems worthy of such, and then dismissal from the forces—the only job most of them have ever known. This is probably the most frightening of all—to be cast aside and cut off from the only lifelines they have, cut adrift without the proper equipment to stay afloat in life's stormy water.

My husband and those like him have been forced to suffer in silence with this condition for far too long without appropriate help forthcoming. He has suffered and tried to deal with on a daily basis major depression, intense anger, insomnia, headaches, physical pain, flashbacks, and hearing and seeing things that don't exist. These things have pushed him to the point where his life has become a living hell, and as far as he is concerned, he'd rather not live there, and in fact would rather not live at all.

The only treatment he has received in the past three years is a two-week course at National Defence Medical Centre, a once-a-week follow-up for six months thereafter, and then the opportunity to be bounced around to a bunch of different therapists handing out different drugs when they find the last one didn't work—enough that we could open up our own pharmacy. The main thrust of this medical care has been to try to live with the problem, but after three years it keeps getting harder and harder to live with this problem, which shows no sign of receding.

I have been in touch with the social worker, and my husband has professed his desire to commit suicide, but still nothing happened.

I'm sorry, but I think the military and the government should face up to this problem and give the soldiers a place to go for help. I have been in touch with the PTSD clinics in the States and have found out that there is help there for our soldiers, if only the people would get off their behinds and provide the help that is necessary.

• 2215

I have spent a considerable amount of time searching the Internet for help for my husband, because I do not wish to see his life taken away from him, or, because of the anger this problem has caused, see him end up in jail for something he did not mean to do.

The Chairman: Could I have the MPs back in their seats, please? We'll go back to Patty so she can finish her presentation.

First, though, ladies and gentlemen, we were supposed to end at 10 o'clock. It is now 10.05, and we still have about 18 or 19 people yet to go. What we were going to do was end tonight at around 10.30 and come back tomorrow morning. So those who did not make their presentations tonight are most welcome to come tomorrow morning, and we'll just continue the list then.

Patty, would you like to continue, please?

Ms. Patty X: I find it very sad indeed when I can find more information in a week than the social workers and military doctors can offer in three years. Is it that they don't have this information, or is it like everything else involving the military government—that they don't wish to share the knowledge?

Along with PTSD, my husband has to deal with degenerative knees incurred during his service with the infantry. He has to live with the fact that in four years he will be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, with the same cheery medical advice being administered: live with it. All for what, I ask—to defend his country, a country that seems to have forgotten him and many like him?

I think he has performed his job well, and should be entitled to the medical attention he deserves, wherever it may be found. I have been in touch with Hec Clouthier and with the Minister of National Defence, as well as psychiatrists here on base. To let you know how the psychiatrists react, one said, “With your anger, put it to use and become a mercenary”, which I don't think somebody like this should be told to do. I just find there's nothing being done for people who do need help.

That's it.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit, you have a question?

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes. Patty, I would like to know whether anyone in the military has acknowledged that this is a legitimate illness. I guess that's the first question—has anybody in the military acknowledged that this is—

Ms. Patty X: A problem? Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: —a problem that was caused, and have they attributed it to his service?

Ms. Patty X: Yes, but from there, nothing has been done.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Who was it who acknowledged that? Has that been readily acknowledged at all levels?

Ms. Patty X: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay. What have they offered? You explained a bit what they'd offered for help. For example, you said there are clinics in the United States that deal with this problem in a serious way. Have they offered that service to your husband?

Ms. Patty X: Not yet, no. I have been in touch with the States, and they will take him down there, but nothing's been done up here.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I believe there's a clinic in Ottawa that is dealing with this.

Ms. Patty X: There is, but it's not.... It's like what my husband was on before, a two-week course. After that, there's nothing else.

• 2220

Mr. Leon Benoit: So they acknowledge it's a problem—

Ms. Patty X: And the problem is a big problem, even with lots of people, but Canadians and the Canadian government and the Canadian military don't know what to do with these people.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Do they say that?

Ms. Patty X: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: They don't know what to do with them?

Ms. Patty X: They don't have any place. And he can be referred to different doctors and psychiatrists, but the psychiatrists don't know the problem so he ends up telling the psychiatrists what the problem is...so what's the sense of going to a psychiatrist? What are they going to do? Nothing.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Do you have much information on the clinics in the United States, enough to get a feel for it?

Ms. Patty X: I have sent away for information and stuff like that.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So not enough to really get a good feel for whether they are likely to be able to do anything—

Ms. Patty X: They've dealt with the problem for years now. They have to know something, right? More than what the Canadian government knows.

Mr. Leon Benoit: If this problem has been recognized, do the medical records clearly show that it's been recognized and do they really show what you've said here tonight?

Ms. Patty X: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Do they show that there's a serious problem caused by serving in Bosnia?

Ms. Patty X: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: And yet there's nothing we can do about it.

Ms. Patty X: Nothing so far. Nothing's been done.

Mr. Leon Benoit: This is the same as the Gulf War syndrome, isn't it? It's the same disorder. Has your husband been to the clinic in Ottawa that deals with that? You said he went for just a two-week course.

Ms. Patty X: Yes, a two-week course, and then once a month after that for six months, and that's it. Then he saw different psychiatrists on base and in Pembroke.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Is he working now?

Ms. Patty X: Three hours a day, otherwise he would be hiding out in the house and that would be it. He doesn't deal with people any more.

Mr. Leon Benoit: But he's in the military working for three hours a day.

Ms. Patty X: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: First of all, do you see him getting any better in the near future? Is there any—

Ms. Patty X: Not unless he gets help.

Mr. Leon Benoit: And if he doesn't get help, what's going to happen?

Ms. Patty X: He could commit suicide; he could do many things.

Mr. Leon Benoit: From what you know about this disease, if he doesn't get help is he likely to get better or worse or will he just stay the same on his own? Do you have any idea?

Ms. Patty X: He could get worse.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Get worse. That's what you have found from—

Ms. Patty X: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So if he gets worse, then, in what way will it be? Physically as well as—

Ms. Patty X: Mentally.

Mr. Leon Benoit: —psychologically or mentally? Or both?

Ms. Patty X: Both.

Mr. Art Hanger: How often does it happen?

Ms. Patty X: I don't know. I don't have any statistics on it and it's not something you want to look up, is it?

Mr. Leon Benoit: No.

Ms. Patty X: No.

A voice: You look it up...there are all these people who have children with problems who have served in the military over the past couple of years...post-traumatic stress stuff...a lot of it there.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes, I—

Ms. Patty X: And I know there are a lot of people on base, and a lot of people are afraid to come out and admit that we do have a problem here. I have started a PTSD group for support and, like you say, people are afraid to come out and admit that there is a problem.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I don't know what to say, but I'd like to get your name, if I could afterwards, and get your phone number. I'd like to talk to you and get some more information from you.

Ms. Patty X: Yes.

Voices: Hear, hear.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

• 2225

[Translation]

Julie Nantel.

Ms. Julie Nantel (Individual Presentation): I will be speaking in French because I am a francophone.

First of all, I am extremely disappointed that it was announced that today would be set aside for soldiers' spouses and that tomorrow would be reserved for members of the military. I am disappointed because I would have liked to have seen spouses and soldiers have the opportunity to speak today. Unfortunately, they may not have that opportunity.

I am speaking on behalf of francophones, because several of us here are unilingual francophones such as me and receive no services whatsoever. This is not a bilingual base. We, the Francophones, are well aware of that. We are very much aware of it. There are no services in French, or only very few. There are virtually no activities for us and for our children. When there are some, we are limited.

It is the same thing as far as resources are concerned. For cases of depression, assault or abuse, there is nothing. There are only services in English. There are four English language telephone lines, but there are no French language lines here in Pembroke. There are in Toronto. But there are not any here. It is too empty here. Francophones do not need that. There are not enough of them. There are only 365 francophone families. It is not enough.

And we must not expect that these resources will come from the neighbouring regions, because the budgets are very slim. It would be wise to think as much about the francophones here as you do about the anglophones. I can understand that clothing or financial needs might be important, but the needs of francophones are also very important.

We did not ask to be moved here. We had no choice. First of all, there is only one base that is truly francophone. It is in Quebec. Ask the anglophones if they want to go to Quebec. No, of course they do not want to go there, because their wives would often suffer from serious depression and from communication problems. I understand that. We made the choice of coming here to help our husband's career or ourselves. However, we are not obligated to be subjected to all of this. This affects us tremendously.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Madam Nantel, could you repeat how many francophones there are on this base?

Ms. Julie Nantel: There are 365 francophone families and 1,165 bilingual members. The bilingual members speak French, but that does not count. They are bilingual. They are not unilingual francophones.

The Chairman: According to the numbers we were given this morning, if I understand correctly, there are 14 unilingual francophones.

Ms. Julie Nantel: There are only 14 unilingual francophones? Well, they must have forgotten me, sir. I am bilingual. I can say: Yes, No and I love you. Am I a bilingual? It is as silly as that.

Bilingual, that applies to the francophones. Usually, francophones are all bilingual. It is like a virus. We are bilingual. Anglophones are English-speaking. When they learn the French language, they are congratulated. Unfortunately, we are not able to learn English like that. I do not have a virus to learn it either. But I would not mind catching that virus.

A voice:

[Editor's Note: Inaudible] That does not include the dependents. That includes only the members.

Ms. Julie Nantel: As she just stated, that number perhaps takes into account only soldiers and not dependents. There are husbands who are soldiers and often, the list does not include their wives or their children. In our family, there are five of us. How many soldiers are we here? That means that I only count for half. It is not too bad. I am happy. I am really a minority. So help me. It is urgent. I am soon going to go into depression.

In essence, I am just someone who is complaining. Never. My husband was sent to Koweit for a year. I was in Kingston. I managed all alone. I put in my time. I did my time and I am not complaining. The only thing I say to myself is that I am entitled to small services, minimal services, such as a doctor... I am not even able to have a doctor here, because the lists are full. You will tell me to manage, but I will be told that the list is full, that no one can do anything for me. Unless I am out cold, they cannot take me. There are three francophone doctors who treat both anglophones and francophones.

• 2230

There are no unilingual francophone doctors for myself or for my children. I am proud that they are unilingual francophones. It is their language. I do not see why I should be penalized because of that. Here, there are people who are unilingual anglophones and who are not penalized for that. I do not want to be penalized. I believe that there are a lot of francophones like me who do not want to be penalized for that.

The Chairman: You talked about other family assistance. Are there any such services in French that you have access to, other than medical services?

Ms. Julie Nantel: I would like to tell you a story. We go to the gym for swimming lessons for our children. There are people there who are bilingual. I asked for a French-speaking instructor for my children. No. It would be too difficult to provide a bilingual instructor to the French group. They send that instructor to the English group, instead of being understanding and logical. They simply will not do it. No. You are a minority. They will not do it. There is no logic whatsoever. You must always defend yourself in order to get something, and they say no. It is no. As far as any major assistance is concerned, be it for depression or for psychological counselling, there is no such thing. You must go elsewhere.

Isn't that wonderful?

The Chairman: Indeed, thank you very much, Madam Nantel.

Ms. Julie Nantel: Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Angela Hulbert.

Ms. Angela Hulbert (Individual Presentation): Hi. There are so many things.

First of all, about a year and a half ago I had to go in for back surgery. I've had back problems for several years, and it finally came to the point where I couldn't function any longer. I had a three-month-old child, a one-year-old, a twelve-year-old and a fourteen-year-old at home, and my husband had to go away on a course.

I would have bad back episodes that might last for five days or so, but the time came for him to go. I told him to go ahead on the course, that it should only take me a few days to get better. After he left, I got worse than I had ever been before, to the point where I couldn't move a quarter of an inch of my own body one way or the other. My daughter phoned an ambulance and I went to the hospital and I stayed there. He came home off his course for the weekend, but he had to go back on Monday. He didn't leave Sunday night, he stayed on Monday because I had to go back into the hospital. I stayed there until I was sent to Ottawa for surgery.

In the meantime, he was fighting to try to get the time to stay with the kids. His unit wouldn't really allow it. They wanted him to go back on the course. We did everything we possibly could to get help. We had absolutely no help. Nobody would help us. His unit wouldn't support us. PEMICO wouldn't help us.

• 2235

I was laid up for about eight weeks, so he had to stay home from his course, and that was his 5-As course, which he needs for promotion, to be able to go on UN tours, anything. So I don't know about other people, but I know that when we have a family crisis, we get no support, absolutely none.

Also, with regard to the PMQs, somebody was asking if it was just down in this area or that area. I wrote down that in Petawawa—and I asked my neighbour about this last night—our PMQs have gale-force winds that blow through our windowframes in the wintertime. We have to chip the ice off the insides of all our windows. Our furnaces run steady just to keep the house liveable. Actually, it's not liveable.

In my kitchen cupboards that are on the outside wall, I can actually freeze things. We don't need a beer fridge, because we have a beer cupboard. We have bad mould and mildew on our windowsills. The water runs off the windows constantly and makes big patches of paint and gyprock come off the walls.

If we decorate the place ourselves just to make it liveable, we have to put it all back the way it was when we leave. I don't consider dirt-white liveable, so we like to decorate a little bit, but then we have to change it all back to dirt-white.

We have a river that runs through our basement every spring. They tell us we don't pay for our basements so it doesn't matter what condition they're in. We don't have a storage closet, so we have to use the basement. Our washers and dryers are down there. I don't think it's good for my appliances when they're sitting in at least six inches of water for part of a day or two days. That's not to mention that I can't use my washer and dryer when that happens. I have four children. I have to use my washer and dryer. I can't wait until everything dries out.

When we ask for something to be done, of course, they say they're coming, that they'll call us in a few days, but we don't hear from them. They figure we'll just forget, I guess. But they never show up, they never call back, and if you call them back they tell you again that they're coming. A couple of years go by, but we know they're coming.

No other landlord would get away with this. At least, I don't think any other landlord would get away with this, and I don't care what your rent costs.

Voices: Hear, hear.

Ms. Angela Hulbert: There are a lot of other things. This is my second marriage. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I'm from B.C., and so is my husband. When I was driving out here to be with him, I know I crashed and died because this is hell. I was a single mother, I was working, and I had a far better life than I do now.

I was looking up “morale” because I was curious about this word. It's the biggest word in the military, “morale” is. According to Funk and Wagnalls, it is a state of mind with reference to confidence, courage, hope, zeal, etc. How can our hard-working troops have the courage—the quality of spirit enabling one to face danger; to live with hope—the desire, the expectation of fulfilment; and zeal, enthusiastic devotion, when they no longer have the confidence, a feeling of trust and faith in their higher-ranking officials?

• 2240

Is there a lack of morale in the military? That depends on which rank you ask.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Angela.

Do you have a question, Mr. Hanger?

Mr. Art Hanger: We never had an opportunity to go through the PMQs on this visit, although we have been in some of the other bases. There are, I notice, some new buildings here, or fairly new, but maybe you can correct me. I'm looking at the outside of them. Again, we haven't been on the inside.

How many people are living in the PMQs on this base? I know that probably most of you here might be, but do you have any numbers? Are there some new ones and some old ones?

A voice: They're all old.

Mr. Art Hanger: They're all old.

A voice: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: They're all condemned.

A voice: Some of them were condemed.

Mr. Art Hanger: Is that a fact? They were at one time unsuitable for living in and now they've opened them up.

Mr. Mark Tardif (Individual Presentation): Mr. Chairman, I'm the housing manager. If you have any questions, maybe I can inform you.

Mr. Art Hanger: You're the building manager?

Mr. Mark Tardif: Yes, right, CFHA housing manager.

Mr. Art Hanger: You find it safe to walk among these people?

Mr. Mark Tardif: I know everybody here.

There are 1,700 PMQs. That means about 5,000 people are living in them. I think when you say new buildings you are probably referring to what we call the single quarters, but that has nothing to do with CFHA. Everything is on the same side of the boulevard.

Mr. Art Hanger: Can you give an account on the state of the buildings?

Mr. Mark Tardif: Yes. Most of them were built from 1950 to 1970. We have about 600 or 700 row houses. The balance is apartment buildings. We have 189 apartments. The rest are composed of duplexes and single houses. They are divided on the south side and the north side. We have a river that separates both sides of the PMQs. We took over on April 1, 1997.

Mr. Art Hanger: I heard a gentleman back here, and I'm inclined to believe his comments in a way, because I've seen some of the places that even welfare recipients in some of the cities would not be permitted to live in, and yet military personnel are expected to live in such conditions. I'm curious, are some of those houses really so far below standard that they should be condemned?

Mr. Mark Tardif: Actually, I would say that we're reviewing across the country, and Petawawa is included.

In terms of the houses that have to be updated to the minimum standard of living, which means repairs over $15,000 or demolishing, I didn't identify any of them because they are all occupied. I would say we have 25 vacant, and that means only 1.5% of the housing is vacant. As to whether they're suitable or not, we're going to do a review of every house in the next year. They will all be inspected one by one, and the ones that are due to be demolished will be identified and we will do a plan for that. Actually, there are no houses identified as hazardous.

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Mr. Art Hanger: Maybe I don't get the picture, but wouldn't you want to inspect the house before you put people inside it?

Mr. Mark Tardif: Yes, they are all inspected.

Voices: No, no, no.

Mr. Art Hanger: There's obviously a lot of disagreement on that.

Mr. Mark Tardif: I would say they have been inspected because there's been at least one work order per house as far as I know. And I personally have visited at least 800 of them, because last year we performed 600 march-outs and I visited all of them at least once.

Ms. Angela Hulbert: Excuse me, but there's latex paint slapped on oil paint that peels and bubbles off the first time the temperature raises above 25 degrees outside. In four years, nobody's come to look at ours. Nobody's come to see and nobody cares if there's a leak in the ceiling, if it's going to drop on your head or not. And it's happened. We know people whose roof has actually caved in on them.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. And they're living in these places?

Ms Angela Hulbert: Yes.

A voice: I don't have guests over because they have to put—

The Chairman: Would you just come to the microphone and identify yourself, please.

Ms. Tina George (Individual Presentation): My name is Tina George.

I've had my toilet fixed four times now. The last plumber who came to fix it told me that he had to put two wax seals on it because the floor is rotted out so bad, which is directly above my kitchen table. So one of these times, someone is going to be sitting on my toilet and they're going to end up on my turkey.

In December, my doorknob was stuck and I would get locked in my house. I have a six-month-old, who was three months then, and I also have a six-year-old. I was outside with my three-month-old daughter in a snowstorm and I got stuck outside my house. My husband phoned CE to get them to fix it. The lady told us that her door doesn't even lock in the winter. I didn't really care; this is my door. I had to climb over my back fence because there was so much snow on the gate to get through the back door. And I had my three-month-old in her car seat. I thought that was a little ridiculous. There was no work order put in two months after I had phoned the first time because that woman said her door didn't even lock. Like I really cared.

Mr. Art Hanger: I understand that the housing situation is all placed into the hands of a separate agency. It's no longer part of the, if you will, chain of command within the military.

Ms. Tina George: That's correct.

Mr. Art Hanger: So even if your base commander wanted to do something about this house, nothing could be done.

Ms. Tina George: Nothing.

Mr. Art Hanger: Because it's all private.

Would you consider, sir, what she just described to you as a condemned residence?

Mr. Mark Tardif: The only thing I can tell you is that after a year we've performed over 5,000 repairs in 1,700 houses. Some houses got ten repairs; some got one repair.

The only way to have a good portrait of the housing is you should see some of them, any one you would like to select, if you have the time. And it's going to give you a good portrait of the housing here. But, again, we just took over a year ago and I'll tell you that what we have is not sufficient to maintain them to a prior level. So we do what we can with what we have.

Mr. Art Hanger: So what is it going to take to get her toilet fixed so somebody doesn't go into the basement when they're sitting on it?

Ms. Tina George: Actually, to be quite honest, it was three weeks ago, three to four weeks ago, that we phoned for the fourth time to get our toilet fixed because the plumber told us this. The plumber did come and he recaulked around my tub. And I asked if he was going to be checking out my toilet to see about getting a new floor in. He said that wasn't on his work order, that another plumber would be coming.

They told us when we phoned about our floor that there's no money in the budget to do our floor, so too bad. There was a rip in my kitchen floor for a year, which grew a lot bigger because my six-year-old son tripped over it. Finally, after a year, they came to fix it. They cut a piece of tile out from underneath my fridge and put it there. So now when I move my fridge it rips the floor under it. No doubt when I move out they will blame me for ripping the floor and I will have to replace it. I'll also have to repaint my whole kitchen and rip off the wallpaper I just put up.

• 2250

The Chairman: Sir, you had a comment.

Corporal Franco Ceccato (Individual Presentation): When I was posted to Chilliwack before, Canadian Forces Housing Agency took over and the base was ordered to close down. They asked the welfare people if they wanted to move into the PMQs. The welfare manager came, toured around, and stated, I quote. “We will not let our people live in these places because they are below our standard”.

So if it's like that at Chilliwack, I guarantee it's all over the place. That's all I want to say right now.

The Chairman: Thank you.

A very brief comment.

Corporal Paramor (Individual Presentation): I lived in the apartments. The apartment I moved into had a hole about two inches in diameter. I finally got out of there into a bungalow, which was a little better, but those apartments were condemned at one time.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Another brief comment?

Ms. Jennifer West (Individual Presentation): Yes. My name is Jennifer West and those pictures you have are from my building. Just for comment's sake, in the one picture where you see the whole ceiling is all mouldy, it was like that for over a year before they finally came to start fixing it. It took them two to three months to finish it.

In my building, we all have mould growing on our ceilings and we've been told it's because we don't clean properly and take too many showers. The woman who lives in the basement of our building has a nine-month-old baby and her ceiling is falling in on her right now. They won't move her out because they just moved a sergeant major into the house they were supposed to get. They were also told that if their baby eats the paint chips that come off the ceilings, she'll only do it a few times before she gets sick and figures out she shouldn't do it.

This is what we're dealing with. Most of us are thinking now perhaps we should pay a little extra money and go for a smaller place off base where we can live with some type of standard. I don't want to live here because I've worked my butt off all my life to have something and now I have nothing. I'm allergic to mould and I have to live with it every day.

My windowsill, which you also have a picture of, is moulding, and if you push a little too hard on the wood your finger goes through it. But if you complain about it they'll take your window out, and we want a window in our bathroom because the fan doesn't work.

So what do we do? We're between a rock and a hard place. But they're going to increase our rent in the next few months.

Mr. Art Hanger: What's your last name?

Ms. Jennifer West: West.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Tardif, do you have anything else to add?

Mr. Mark Tardif: Yes, I have just a quick note. First, we have a 24-hour service line, so whatever happens.... Last winter we had about 250 incidents of heating failure in our MQs and nobody had to go to a hotel because there was heat the same night. Our service was two hours. And this year, since April 1, we have a new contract with a one-hour response.

I would just like to add that many of the housing managers are currently living in MQs. I think last week you were in Kingston, and the housing manager there is living in an MQ. I am a resident of the MQ. So we're not people who aren't concerned or worried about the conditions of living of our tenants. I live on Borden Avenue, and I'm very concerned about the living conditions of people.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Tardif. But from the comments you've heard tonight, there seem to be some problems with the housing.

Mr. Mark Tardif: It's our everyday stuff. Every call we receive is like that. It isn't worse or better than that. That's what we consider a maintenance call from a tenant. We hear that many times a day.

Mr. Art Hanger: If some of the housing is in as bad shape as these pictures show, why is there so much, if any, rent being charged?

Voices: Exactly.

Mr. Mark Tardif: Pardon?

• 2255

Mr. Art Hanger: Why should there be rent charged if some of these places are in as bad a shape as they are in?

Mr. Mark Tardif: The rents are based on a general price. We don't do an assessment per house. From now on, as people receive the rent increase in the next three months, anybody who has reason to think they should not pay that much will have a right of appeal regarding the rent. If you want, we'll reassess the rents; we'll review and visit every house one by one if it's required. If somebody thinks they should pay less, it will be considered.

But I will tell you honestly, sir, if I take a block on Dundonald Drive, for example, I will take 40 houses there, and 40 of them will have the same degree of degradation. All of them are 30 years old and have a lack of insulation, rotten wood windows—there's nothing new there. There will be 40 houses in the same shape exactly.

A voice: Then why raise the rent?

Mr. Art Hanger: I know. That's why I wonder why these rental standards are even set, if you have so many of them in that kind of shape. Why is there even any rent charged? It almost sounds as though it's beyond reason.

Mr. Mark Tardif: No, there's no reason. The thing is we just inherit the rent that was there a year ago. We didn't change anything. We didn't make it bigger all over; we took it as it was. We have to rely on DND to establish the rent. We didn't make any decisions about the rent; we just left it as it was originally. No decision has been taken about giving rebates to these people or not. This year it's going to be possible.

Mr. Art Hanger: I know you're looking at administrative issues there, but there are people living in these places too. Isn't that a consideration that has to be brought into the picture?

Mr. Mark Tardif: Yes, and it is published. This week it is in the newspaper of the base that as people receive a notification of rent increase, they will have the possibility of appeal if they want their rent to be reviewed.

The Chairman: Ladies and gentlemen, there are three other people at the microphones. I will allow them to have their say and then I think we'll call it an evening. We will resume tomorrow morning at 8.30 at this same spot.

I believe Mr. Hulbert was the first one at the microphone.

Cpl Michael Hulbert: They allocate these PMQs. We pay by rank, for one. They have officers with two kids living in five-bedroom PMQs. I have seven people in my family. I should be entitled to a five-bedroom PMQ at least.

The way the PMQs are, they are a health hazard. People are getting sick, and that's why they're getting sick, because they're inhaling all this mould that grows on the windowsills.

Master Corporal Pat Eglinton (Individual Presentation): You ask why these people are even paying rent. I can give you an example. I lived in an apartment; I just finally moved into a house. I'm glad to be out of the apartment, because of the low standard. Now I'm worried about HEAP, if I ever get posted in three years. I took that chance.

Living in the apartment, I had been there for two years, and last year the snow and ice removal was atrocious. We had a foot of ice in our parking lot for the entire winter. I cannot hold back my rent, because it comes off my pay, and that's why people are still paying rent for this substandard housing. That's all I have to say.

Voices: Hear, hear!

• 2300

The Chairman: Would you identify yourself, please?

Ms. Beverly Paasila (Individual Presentation): I'm Beverly Paasila.

With the housing thing and everything, we understand you have to pay rent, whatever, but every time there's something wrong....

Our roof is seeping water, but our shingles are fine. That's what we were told. And yes, we got our overhang. Now we don't have ice in the walls, but there's still ice coming in because they took everything apart and they said the wood's rotten.

What I get is there's no budget. Well, that's nice, but what is our rent going to? The justification of rent increase is ridiculous if they're not going to do the upkeep of the houses.

I was told if I don't like it I could get out and move on Civvy Street, which is not right, because ten years ago I would have. Now the rents are ridiculous for a one and a half income, because I'm an on-call barber.

You can't justify going and buying a house. My husband is out in eight years. Our retirement posting is where we're buying a house. It sure is not going to be here. What I've heard scares me. I don't even want to think about buying a house now, but being told, well, if you don't like it, get off base.... Mr. Tardif has never said that to me; the girls at the desk, yes. March in, march out, and if you don't like it, this is what you do.

Personally, it's not a choice, and being told it's a privilege to live on base is not right either, because you have no choice.

I don't want to complain, but we try to keep our house up to date as much as we can. We don't mind doing things ourselves, but when it comes to roofing, I'm sorry, I'm not paying for a new roof on something that's falling apart that I don't own. If I owned it, I would pay for it.

We got permission to take down trees that were infested—we had ants everywhere. We were told it was too much to take them down. We went to the base commander. Captain MacPherson was great. He said “Here's your permission slip. Get the trees out.”

But ever since we did that, it's oh, sorry, we don't want to do anything for you. I know, standing here today, if I need a work order done, do you think I'm going to be at the top of the list? I'm going to be right down at the bottom, because I voiced my opinion. It's not fair.

I'm glad I don't have children, and I feel sorry for the people who do, because the houses are.... You get this all the time: the budget and the political thing. I don't care, to put it nicely.

I take pride in where I live. We were always taught that you keep your outside looking great. I feel like I live in a shack. My husband and I try. We talk. They say, well, put a work order in. I say I've put in about 50 work orders, and I'm getting some guy coming in giving me a new basement sink when I don't need one. My roof is falling apart, but I need a new basement sink when there's nothing wrong with the old one. He's says that's the work order. I said I didn't put it in. They said go to housing. Well, the computer didn't put them in. To my knowledge, you need a person to input this stuff into the computer. I'm not very computer literate, but there is a keyboard there for a person to punch this stuff in.

I'm just a military wife, and when it comes to housing, they don't care about the military wives. Get your husband. I have power of attorney, buddy, and when he's gone, if stuff has to be done, it's going to be done, because I will cease the rent until it does get done. I did that before to get my overhang. Like the base commander said, if you have to do it again, do it again, because you'll be safe. This is slumlording.

I understand there are new things. I lived in CFHA in CFB Ottawa. None of this would ever happen. If you wanted your place painted, it was painted. There was none of this you're entitled to one gallon a year, or you're allowed two rooms, and if they do a hallway, that's considered a room.

What is that? But it's the same with the rent. As for basements and all that, if it's attached to the house, you pay the bloody rent for that. There's no way you don't, because my house insurance told me. You pay rent; it's for the whole thing. But that's fine. Thank God, knock wood, nothing has ever floated into my basement yet.

But there's a lot of frustration. Mark has taken a lot from us. We understand it's new, but as to this talk of budget this, budget that, the only thing I have to say is the military did the biggest mistake in their life when they sold it to them. That's the only gripe I have with the military, that they sold it to these guys.

Typical woman, babbling off. But hey, when you've lived it.... I've lived through hell living through the military, but I accept it. It's my husband's job, and I back him. But when it comes to housing, no way, I'm not splitting with my husband because they won't do the work.

• 2305

That's all I've got to say.

The Chairman: I think Mr. Hanger had a question. A short one, please.

Mr. Art Hanger: This is probably one of the big issues around here. I think the committee should be making some time and going over to see these places.

Can we go over to your house?

Ms. Beverly Paasila: Hey man, I'm at 50 Ypres. Come right over. I'll even give you a drink. Come and see this.

Mr. Art Hanger: Can we make some time?

Ms. Beverly Paasila: Hell, I got stuff in the fridge. Come on over.

Mr. Art Hanger: Can we make some time and go over to see these tomorrow on the way back to Ottawa? I think we should.

Mr. Leon Benoit: We've got to get back.

Ms. Beverly Paasila: I'm off tomorrow, so I'll be home all day waiting for you guys. I'll even have the barbeque going, if I have to, just to get you there to see the stuff.

The Chairman: We'll see if we can work it into the schedule.

Ms. Beverly Paasila: Okay.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit, did you have a question?

Mr. Leon Benoit: No, I was just going to ask the same thing.

The Chairman: Could we have your address?

Ms. Beverly Paasila: It's 50 Ypres. I'm right across from the school on the corner of Nissoria. It's the main road.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Ladies and gentlemen, I just wanted to thank you very much for coming out tonight. We will resume tomorrow at 8:30 a.m. right in this room. Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.