NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, May 25, 1999

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[English]

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the joint meeting of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade and SCONDVA.

We'll start with opening remarks from Jim Wright, who is the director general for central, east, and south Europe.

Mr. Jim Wright (Director General for Central, East, and South Europe, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to speak first to the UN humanitarian mission to Yugoslavia, including Kosovo. After spending three days touring Kosovo, a UN humanitarian assistance team, led by the head of the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, Undersecretary-General de Mello, has confirmed that there is very clear evidence of a campaign of ethnic cleansing being carried out by Serb authorities.

[Translation]

The team listened to Kosovar refugees recount their experiences. They saw deserted villages and burned-out houses and witnessed first-hand the heavy damage inflicted on property owned by ethnic Albanian Kosovars. They observed a staggering number of civilians forcibly displaced by Yugoslav authorities.

[English]

Mr. de Mello said those who remain in Kosovo “are in need of urgent humanitarian assistance, but, perhaps more important, of security and confidence”. He went on to say:

The extent of the destruction, burning of houses and shops that clearly belonged to the Kosovar Albanian majority [...] confirm what we hear [from the refugees].

In a word, it's pretty revolting.

The team did not get the full assistance and freedom of movement they required from the Serb authorities. Mr. de Mello, who is currently in Montenegro, will make public the full details of his findings after reporting to UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and the Security Council next week. However, Mr. de Mello plans first to return to Belgrade to make his views known directly to Serb authorities at the highest level.

The second item is to report very briefly on the preliminary results of the visit by four members of Parliament to the region. As you know, four parliamentarians, headed up by Bill Graham, arrived in Macedonia yesterday. They've met with refugees from two camps. They've also visited no man's land on the border with Kosovo.

[Translation]

The plight of the refugees left a deep impression on Canadian parliamentarians.

[English]

The delegation will be meeting with Macedonian government officials and opposition parliamentarians before returning to Ottawa later in the week.

With respect to the diplomatic track, a number of meetings are taking place today at NATO. Spain's Prime Minister Aznar attended the North Atlantic Council today to address the council and to discuss the way ahead for Kosovo. Likewise, the Prime Minister of Albania is in Brussels to meet with NATO ambassadors and the Secretary-General, Mr. Solana. U.S. Undersecretary of State Strobe Talbott is in Moscow to meet with Russian Special Envoy Viktor Chernomyrdin and Finnish President Ahtisaari.

[Translation]

Mr. Chernomyrdin is also planning to go to Belgrade later this week, perhaps with the President of Finland, to meet with President Milosevic.

[English]

German and Greek foreign ministers plan to be in Washington. I believe the German foreign minister is there today to meet with Madeleine Albright. Minister Axworthy is planning on travelling to Washington later in the week to meet with the U.S. Secretary of State.

Finally, Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov is in Stockholm tomorrow to meet with the full UN team: Secretary-General Kofi Annan and the two special envoys, Carl Bildt and Eduard Kukan.

That concludes my opening remarks, Mr. Chairman.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Thank you very much, Mr. Wright.

Now we'll have, from the Department of National Defence, General Henault.

Lieutenant-General Raymond R. Henault (Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence): Mr. Chairman, thank you.

[Translation]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

[English]

This will represent our update to you of about the last 10 days of activity in air operations primarily over Kosovo.

NATO's military action continues on this 63rd day of the NATO air campaign against President Milosevic and the Yugoslav Republic, with around-the-clock air attacks on a multitude of strategic targets, which are primarily infrastructure targets and tactical targets, including of course fielded forces in Kosovo.

[Translation]

NATO continues to launch strikes aimed at isolating, disrupting and destroying Serb military and police forces carrying out ethnic cleansing activities in Kosovo.

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[English]

The NATO attacks continue to incrementally inflict serious damage, and I would like to give you a bit of a recap of where we are at the moment from a NATO perspective.

Most primary road and rail bridges have been destroyed, thereby preventing or at least disrupting the provision of supplies to forces in the field. About 75% of fixed Serb surface-to-air missile systems have been destroyed, as well as about 12% of their mobile surface-to-air systems. Approximately 70% of their most capable fighter aircraft—that is, the MiG-29 air defence fighter—have been destroyed. In addition, about 100 fighter aircraft of all types and a small number of transport helicopters have been destroyed by NATO air forces.

Also, a dozen vital command posts have been struck.

[Translation]

In addition, over 500 separate pieces of military equipment have sustained heavy damage. Fifty percent of this equipment consists of tanks, artillery and armored troop carriers accounting for approximately one-third of the Serbian assault force estimated to be positioned inside Kosovo.

[English]

After two months of bombing—and as I mentioned, we're now into the 63rd day—it can be concluded that the air campaign remains the most viable military strategy at this point in the crisis. The air campaign continues to be conducted with much precision, despite the relatively few misses, which have been prominent and obviously discussed at some length. The air campaign continues unabated and will continue as long as President Milosevic allows it to, as we've said in the past, with the resultant destruction to both his own forces and his military infrastructure.

It remains a challenge to balance the demands of the air campaign and facilitate humanitarian operations in Kosovo as the number of NGO-sponsored convoys increases in the region, with the commensurate higher risk of collateral damage to those NGO organizations.

[Translation]

The campaign against President Milosevic and his forces has yet to peak. Weather conditions are forecast to improve during the coming week, something that we have long been hoping for, and more military aircraft will be launched in the coming weeks and greater results will be achieved. It should be noted that there are now over 1,000 fighter and support aircraft involved in Operation Allied Force.

[English]

Turning to the military option, the visit-and-search regime previously discussed in this forum is being actively considered again before the North Atlantic Council and will possibly be approved sometime later this week, as early as mid-week. NATO authorities have already approved the deployment of the Standing Naval Force Atlantic, which you'll remember has as its commander Canadian Commodore David Morse. It has already been approved to deploy to the Mediterranean and to transfer operational command from the commander of Strategic Allied Command Atlantic to the Supreme Allied Commander Europe, who is General Clark.

[Translation]

Along with the air offensive, Allied Forces remain actively committed to humanitarian relief operations in Albania and the former Republic of Macedonia. NATO troops continue to work on improving conditions in the camps now sheltering an ever-growing number of Kosovar refugees, as we have seen in recent days, and on stabilizing the situation in the region. NATO forces also provide logistical and technical support with respect to the handling and distribution of essential goods.

[English]

As a final point, I have some comments on Operation Echo, which is Canada's contribution. Our CF-18s in Aviano continue to fly a combination of battlefield air interdiction missions—that is, strike missions—and combat air patrol missions, with an average daily sortie rate at the moment of 16 sorties.

[Translation]

Therefore, on average, 16 sorties are flown every day.

[English]

To date, Task Force Aviano has flown approximately 500 sorties, with our pilots performing extremely well under very challenging circumstances. I will be conducting a short operational visit to Task Force Aviano and to 5 Allied Tactical Air Force in Vicenza over the next few days and will report back to you next week on that, Mr. Chairman. In fact I will break my attendance record, I'm afraid, on Thursday, but I will have General Jurkowski representing me then.

For Op Kinetic, the deployment of our 800-strong deployment to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia as part of an international peace implementation force, as I've described earlier, remains on schedule. In fact the vessel has now sailed.

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[Translation]

A ship carrying most of our heavy equipment is scheduled to leave the port of Montreal today for Europe. The entire contingent will reach the theatre of operations by mid June and will be operational by the end of June at the latest.

[English]

You may also be aware that NATO is in the process of updating its plan for the peace implementation force in Kosovo with a view to potential augmentation of troops based on the situation on the ground. This reassessment was necessitated by a massive exodus of Kosovar refugees, which we're very obviously concerned about, and by the continuing campaign of ethnic cleansing.

As well, the situation on the ground, as it existed during the Rambouillet accords, has changed. We do know there has been extensive destruction by Serb forces, as well as mine-laying, damage to the infrastructure and lines of communication, and other damage, which does require that we reconsider the force structure to ensure we have the right mix to provide the safe, stable, and secure environment that Kosovar refugees will return under.

We currently, as we've done in the past, continue to review our own options and continue to develop menus of capabilities that might be offered, if in fact we are asked for additional support from NATO. This will need to be presented to ministers obviously, and ultimately to cabinet and government, for consideration.

Finally, the reception of refugees in Canada is just about completed. Our final flight, as Mr. LeBane just confirmed to me before the meeting, will occur on Wednesday and will bring to a close the current round of Kosovar refugee arrivals in Canada, taking us just beyond the total of 5,000. Mr. LeBane can give you the exact numbers. At the moment we have about 5,100 here in Canada.

[Translation]

That concludes my remarks, Mr. Chairman. I'll now turn the floor back over to you.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Thank you very much, General.

[English]

Now we'd like to hear from Jeff LeBane from Citizenship and Immigration.

Mr. Jeff LeBane (Director General, International Relations, Citizenship and Immigration Canada): Mr. Chairman, honourable members, in response to Madam Ogata's appeal of April 30, Canada agreed to provide safe haven for 5,000 Kosovar refugees. I can report to you that as of today, we have provided safe haven on our military bases to 4,846 of these refugees. With tomorrow's flight scheduled to Trenton, we will meet our commitment of 5,000. Presently, in responding to the emergency humanitarian evacuation appeal, Canada is in fourth place, after Germany, Turkey, and Norway.

In addition, we have brought to Canada 437 Kosovars who have family ties in Canada. This is an open-ended program. We estimate today that just slightly in excess of 2,000 people in Kosovo have relatives in Canada.

In addition to that number, the UNHCR has referred to us 16 special-needs cases. These include persons who have been witnesses to massacres or who may have had families completely eliminated, and there's no opportunity for them to go back. We have been requested by the UNHCR to help resettle these people, again as refugees.

In Canada we're presently working with NGO organizations to identify Canadian groups as sponsors to help integrate these persons into Canadian communities. We've had in excess of 300 organizations come forward and say they are willing to work in the various provinces with these refugees. There's more work to be done on that, but we're trying to accomplish a very considerable amount of work in a short time.

Also, at the end of this week, we're going to start moving some of these refugees off bases to communities in Canada, to begin the integration process.

I've brought today as well, for your information, statistical information on what we've done to date.

Thank you.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Thank you very much, Mr. LeBane.

We have with us also Hunter McGill from CIDA.

Mr. McGill, would you like to say a few words?

Mr. Hunter McGill (Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Canadian International Development Agency): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, if I may.

[Translation]

I'd like to give you a brief overview of last Friday's visit to Albania by the Honourable Diane Marleau, Minister of International Cooperation.

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[English]

Minister Marleau was able to spend a very packed day in Albania on Friday last. She benefited enormously from discussions with senior Albanian authorities—the President, the Prime Minister, and senior ministers of the Albanian cabinet—reviewing with them the situation of that country and the humanitarian challenge it is facing.

The minister was also able to visit a refugee camp relatively near the capital of Tirana, a refugee camp called Spitalle, which is being managed, on behalf of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, by CARE Canada.

She was also able to meet with the representatives of several Canadian organizations, notably World Vision Canada and CECI, which are conducting operations to support the situation of the Kosovar refugees in Albania. And she was able to meet a number of refugees herself.

She made two announcements during her visit.

The first was to indicate that Canada would be supporting two initiatives by Canadian organizations. One is the International Children's Institute, a Canadian non-governmental organization that is proposing to deliver community-based rehabilitation services to refugees in Albania. This will have particular impact on vulnerable groups such as children and the elderly. As well, a project is proposed by Queen's University to build local health care professional capacity using Canadian expertise.

Secondly, the minister advised the Albanian authorities with whom she met that Canada was prepared to give $6 million in economic assistance to the government in order to assist them to deal with the burdens they are facing as a consequence of the enormous numbers of refugees they have had to deal with and the consequent pressure that's brought to bear on the services and infrastructure within the country.

That is the news I can give you at the present time, Chairman, but of course if members have questions, I'd be delighted to answer them. Thank you.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): There's no doubt we'll have questions. Thank you very much, Mr. McGill.

As the committee knows, this is a slightly different structure from an ordinary committee, because there are some time constraints. I believe our witnesses have to be out by about 4 o'clock. So we'll go to one-minute questions and hopefully short, concise answers.

[Translation]

Mr. Crête will ask the first question on behalf of the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): My question is for Mr. Wright. Has the Milosevic government altered its position at all on the deployment of a peacekeeping force? We've heard all kinds of rumours about this recently.

I also have a question about the military side of this operation. We have heard that our troops will be ready to intervene in the region by the end of June. Is the intention still to have our troops participate in a peacekeeping force, or will they be prepared to participate in a military assault force in this region?

My final question concerns the refugees. Are the federal and Quebec governments still talking about Quebec taking in 1,200 refugees? Is that a realistic objective?

[English]

Mr. Jim Wright: Thank you very much.

[Translation]

As for the attitude of the Serb government and of President Milosevic, every week we receive signals of some kind, but these are not very clear, particularly when it comes to the deployment of a security force or ensuring a military presence. We hope that in the near future, perhaps during Mr. Chernomyrdin's visit to Belgrade, we'll get the clear signal that the international community is awaiting.

NATO and the UN, on the other hand, have been sending out very clear signals to Belgrade. After the meeting of NATO leaders in Washington in April and the meeting of G-8 foreign affairs ministers in Bonn, we put forward five conditions and seven highly important principles, which we asked the Serbian leadership to accept immediately and to proceed to withdraw their forces from Kosovo. NATO is prepared to consider ordering a halt to the air strikes. Unfortunately, so far, Belgrade has not sent out any clear signals.

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As for NATO preparations, we now have in place a plan for Kosovo, one that provides for a presence of a peacekeeping force in a permissive environment. NATO doesn't want to launch an assault on the Serbs. On the contrary, we are waiting for a signal from Belgrade to initiate a diplomatic process, one that will entail the presence of a military force in Kosovo to restore the trust of Kosovar refugees and ensure their safety before they make their way back to their homes. Perhaps General Henault would like to add something to that.

LGen. Raymond Henault: Mr. Wright has given you an accurate account of the situation. The plan which provides for the staging, training and deployment of our troops and for their integration into the British force is clearly geared to the peace process.

Mr. Paul Crête: I had a third question for you as well.

[English]

Mr. Jeff LeBane: There is agreement between the federal and the Quebec immigration authorities. Quebec has agreed to take 1,200 of the 5,000 appeal, and that's proceeding well. In addition, we do have the family reunification cases, where Kosovars have family ties in Quebec, beyond that number of 1,200.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Mr. Earle.

Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We've heard that the government and NATO have compiled a pretty impressive list of the military assets that have been destroyed since the campaign began, but can you tell us how many civilian casualties have been inflicted in Yugoslavia as a result of the widening of the bombing campaign?

Along with that, I'd like to know the purpose of cutting off electricity and having hospitals without the facilities to care for babies, people on dialysis, and so forth. How does this fit in with bringing pressure on Milosevic, a person who doesn't seem to care really much about the fate of his own people or the Albanians? Why is that tactic being used, and how many civilians have been involved?

Mr. Jim Wright: On the question of civilian casualties, it's extremely difficult to know. We estimate that as a result of the campaign of ethnic cleansing by Mr. Milosevic's military and paramilitary forces, we are looking at numbers of dead in the thousands. I can't be more specific than that; I wouldn't want to be more specific than that.

We know that upwards of 100,000 to 200,000 men have gone missing in Yugoslavia as a result of this campaign of ethnic cleansing. We know some of those men are starting to reappear. About 500 or 600 arrived over the weekend, having been let out of prisons where they had been abused by Serbian forces. We know over 1 million refugees have been displaced, most outside of Kosovo, but also quite a few who remain within Kosovo.

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In terms of civilian casualties as a result of NATO actions over Kosovo, again it's extremely difficult to know. NATO is doing its very best, under extremely difficult circumstances, to reduce those casualties to the absolute minimum. It's very difficult to do that when at the same time Serbian forces are allowing refugees to quarter themselves next to military targets, or when they're being used as human shields, as has been done in the past. Increasingly we're hearing information like this from some of the refugees, including the men who came out this weekend from Serb prisons.

In terms of electricity, the target there again is the Yugoslav military machine, its command and control. It's the communication structure between Belgrade, the party hierarchy, the government hierarchy, and the troops in the field. The intended targets are not the Serbian people. We recognize that this has been destabilizing for some of the civilian facilities, including hospitals. Those are not intended targets under the circumstances.

At the same time, we also know President Milosevic has at his disposal generating facilities to assist those civilian facilities to make them operate, even when electricity is turned off. It's his choice as to whether he wants to use those to facilitate the civilian structures or whether he wants to use those as part of his military machine.

But as I said at the outset, the intended targets here are not the Serbian people themselves, although we do recognize that the extended aerial campaign by NATO is having an effect on morale in the armed forces and in the political landscape of Yugoslavia, and that people are increasingly questioning the leadership they're getting from Mr. Milosevic and from the other members of the Serbian leadership. Quite frankly, we regard that as a good thing under the circumstances.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Mr. Calder.

Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

General Henault, I know we're using graphite bombs now, and that's what is causing the electrical interruption. I have two questions on that. We've seen clips on television about hospitals and everything. Do these facilities over there not have standby power incorporated into them? Secondly, when the graphite bombing is over, how long will it take to get the generating facilities over there back on-line?

And I have an add-on question too. I know the Apache helicopters are over there now, but they have not been deployed as of yet. Does that mean we really don't have control over low-flying defence yet?

LGen Raymond Henault: I have no information on graphite bombs other than what I've provided to you in recent SCONDVA-SCOFAIT hearings. We don't have those in our own inventory. We have open-literature information on them, so I can't confirm for you the specifics of the graphite bombs. I can't even confirm for you how often or where they're being employed, although we do have indications that it is happening. If they're used, those graphite bombs and soft bombs, as they're being termed, do have a disruptive effect on hydroelectric power, as you've well indicated.

In the case of targeting, it's as Mr. Wright has described it. In the targeting NATO does, they look at facilities that have a military nexus, and that is part of the critical requirement for targeting. In that case, and especially when it comes to hospitals or facilities of that nature, there is a recognition of the capability for standby power. That is all taken into consideration when targeting is done. That's about the best I can give you in that respect. Certainly we're very conscious of that as well. We don't use these types of weapons, so we don't have that specific requirement to address, but I know that is part of what is done in the targeting context.

In terms of electricity coming back on-line, that is all dependent on the actual damage to the power grid itself. We do know the power grid is damaged to different degrees. We do know a combination of bombs is being used now: the so-called soft bombs and also the traditional ones. Again, it will depend on the effect and the extent of damage, but we do know the Serbs are very good at restoring power, and in some cases they restore it within six to 12 hours, using standby route-arounds and so on. So that is part of their ongoing process.

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Finally, the Apaches have been declared operational and ready to be employed. We don't know when they're actually going to be put into combat. We do know the threat is still very high at low level, as we've indicated previously, with the anti-aircraft artillery, the shoulder-launched weapons, and so on that are still available to the Serbs.

All I can say is what I've heard NATO and SACEUR say in the past, and that is surprise remains a very important element of military force. So the actual time when the Apaches are going to be put into combat will be determined upon the best time and moment for SACEUR to employ them. We don't know when that will happen. We are fully expecting that it will happen, but we don't know when and at what point or where. We'll keep an eye on that.

[Translation]

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Mr. Bachand.

Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Has Finland put forward its own peace plan or proposal, or is it simply acting as a messenger in an effort to please the Russians, NATO and Belgrade? Exactly what role with this country playing?

For my own information, could you tell me what difference, if any, there is between a peacekeeping mission and peace implementation?

Furthermore, could you give me more details about the alleged jettisoning of bombs into the Adriatic? When aircraft return from a combat mission and are running short of fuel, the pilots jettison their load of bombs to reduce the weight of the aircraft. A number of bombs have been dumped over the Adriatic. Have Canadian aircraft engaged in this practice? Can you tell us what type of bombs have been involved?

Mr. Jim Wright: In response to your question about Finland, the Finnish President is endeavouring to work very closely with the international community. I doubt that Finland has its own peace proposal, but Finnish President Ahtisaari has considerable experience in UN affairs. He served for many years at the UN in New York.

Furthermore, Finland maintains very appropriate and correct ties with Russia. These are two neighboring countries. During the Kosovo crisis, when the international community was negotiating the Rambouillet accords, a group of Finnish representatives went to Kosovo to investigate one of the massacres that occurred in Racak. Some of Finland's forensic experts were recognized by the Yugoslav government. While Finland is a European country, it is not a member of NATO and Serbian authorities tend to look more kindly upon it. We believe that along with the Americans, NATO and the European Union, Finland can assist Mr. Chernomyrdin during his peace mission to Belgrade. In addition, Finland will begin its term as the country presiding over the European Union this coming July.

As for the difference between

[English]

peacekeeping and peace implementation, I would use the expressions “peacekeeping” and “peacemaking”.

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Peacemaking implies that you are going into a non-permissive environment where you are not invited to go in, but you go in nonetheless to try to enforce a peace.

Peacekeeping is in a permissive environment, such as in the case of Bosnia, where the international community has a 40-country mission that was invited to help implement the Dayton peace accords, and they were invited in there by all of the Bosnian parties.

Peacemaking would fall into the category of going into Kosovo in a non-permissive environment.

Perhaps the general wants to elaborate. I don't know if I'm missing some of the nuances here.

LGen Raymond Henault: The only way I would expand upon that is in terms of what we would call chapter 6 operations and chapter 7 operations.

[Translation]

Chapter 6 operations are those where force is generally used for self-defence purposes. Chapter 7 operations are those where the use of force is permitted to implement Security Council conditions.

[English]

That's the only addition I would make to that, Jim.

[Translation]

I simply wanted to clarify that.

Mr. André Bachand: And what about the dumping of bombs?

LGen Raymond Henault: I can't speak for other nations, because I'm not aware of their practices. However, I do know that occasionally bombs are jettisoned into the Adriatic. In the case of guided bombs, when technical or other problems occur, pilots jettison these bombs into very specific zones in the Adriatic prior to landing, for security reasons. As I mentioned, the circumstances under which this occurs are tightly controlled.

To my knowledge, this practice has not caused any problems. If bombs were accidentally jettisoned over areas closer to the coast or over Italy or another country, then there could be a problem. But as I said, I'm not aware of any incidents, although some may have occurred.

I'm not aware of Canadian aircraft accidentally jettisoning their load. As I said, I don't have the specifics on any planned operations like this, but I will look into the matter and get that information to you on Thursday. Since I don't have the facts with me, I would prefer not to comment. However, I'll be happy to check and see if any bombs have been jettisoned, either accidentally or as part of a planned operation.

Mr. André Bachand: Fine.

[English]

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Mr. Reed.

Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In news reports the last few days, we've been getting supposed information on desertions from the Serb army. As well, there are some reports of open opposition in the former Republic of Yugoslavia. I'm wondering if you have anything very current on whether both these things are growing or if they're being suppressed, and if serious retaliation is being exacted on Serb army deserters or against open opposition.

We know a few weeks ago the publisher of a major newspaper in Belgrade was assassinated, and he was really the only public outcry against what was happening in that city.

Do we know anything more than we're seeing on CNN and so on?

Mr. Jim Wright: We know a little bit. We certainly have a clear sense that there is some growing opposition within Yugoslavia to the cost to the country as a result of the direction in which Serb leadership is taking Yugoslavia. There have been an important number of desertions from the military. There is also some growing opposition. It's still pretty modest under the circumstances.

• 1600

We're dealing with what for all intents and purposes is a form of police state—an authoritarian regime that is determined, every time there is any opposition, to crack down on it. We saw that with the former Deputy Prime Minister of Yugoslavia, Mr. Draskovic, when he spoke out against the direction in which the Serb leadership was taking Yugoslavia. He was dismissed immediately from his position. His party has since withdrawn from the coalition.

There is little or no free press in Yugoslavia right now, which means the Yugoslav people are hearing and seeing only what the Yugoslav leadership wants them to see.

We are seeing in some of our intelligence material as well growing cracks in the regime. Is this going to be enough to bring down Mr. Milosevic? I think we're going to have to see that opposition grow and be more vocal. It's very difficult to do under the circumstances. People are afraid to speak out too much.

The deserters left their units I believe in part because their families had been criticized and retaliated against by the Serbian regime, because they were opposing the continued conscription of their sons to fight in this conflict in Kosovo, which they didn't believe in. That generated the group of, I think it's something in the order of a few hundred—

LGen Raymond Henault: There were demonstrations of as many as a thousand people in some of the cities in Yugoslavia.

Mr. Jim Wright: Right.

So we're seeing some movement here, but is it enough to overthrow the regime? I think not. But as the campaign grinds on and as the further isolation of Yugoslavia becomes more and more apparent to the people of Yugoslavia, even though they do not enjoy a free media right now, I think we will see more of this happening in the days to come.

Mr. Julian Reed: Thank you.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Mrs. Finestone.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone (Mount Royal, Lib.): Thank you very much.

I first want to tell the committee and our very considerate and helpful witnesses that I'm finding an erosion in the general public attitude in my own riding. I find there are many more questions than I could possibly give answers to, and that's why I appreciate coming here, so that I can get some answers and I don't get them through CNN.

My questions come direct from the people and also from listening to CBC.

My first question goes to you, Mr. LeBane, on citizenship and integration—or rather, immigration, but I guess integration would be right, from the story I heard.

There was a wonderful story from Nova Scotia about a school principal who organized a wonderful party for teenagers. I was really touched. I must have seen that one on TV. I thought, how wonderful.

At the same time, the question from my riding is, are they really here just waiting on temporary status, or can they ever consider that they could be integrated and become Canadians and claim refugee status? That's my first question to you, Mr. LeBane.

My second question goes to Mr. McGill. We're hearing these very warm and fuzzy stories about how we're receiving the refugees, and I believe that to be true. Canadians are very open-hearted. On the other hand, I was delighted to learn that Minister Marleau....

She has gotten very good paper coverage here in Canada, by the way. It was excellent, given everything else that's going on.

On the other hand, when all the initiatives were being announced, I was curious about initiatives I heard about for the rehabilitation of shock treatment for children. Is this where the money is headed? Because it's desperately needed.

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Secondly, what is the service I have heard about for the handicapped? Handicapped and elderly women are generally the most unfortunate ones. I'd like to know what's happening there, please.

And last but far from least, to our friend Raymond Henault, I'm curious about something. I think it was Jim who gave a description of the difference between peacemakers and peacekeepers. A lot of people in my riding want to know the difference between the peacekeeper and the real body bags the Americans keep referring to. What is the difference in the retaking of the land, given the land mines, and in the resettling, given the fact that many of the buildings have been burnt down and much of the infrastructure is gone?

And last but not least, the biggest concern, as expressed this morning by Michael Enright and Richard Gwyn, is if you're not in and through by the end of July, you'll never have property or a position or places ready to return the refugees to. Their winter starts early and is much more rugged than Canada's. I find that a bit unpleasant to even believe, but it's very difficult for the people who are presently housed in very unsuitable housing for the wintertime.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jeff LeBane: In terms of your first question, all the Kosovars who are coming under the appeal are coming as refugees, and we recognize them as such. We've made a commitment to the UNHCR, Madam Ogata, that for those who want to go back, Canada will be generous and fund their return. For those who tell us they want to stay as refugees, Madam Robillard has been clear that we would never force anyone to go back, and they will be allowed to stay as refugees. To use an immigration term, they will be landed as refugees. They do not have to go through the Immigration and Refugee Board. They will be landed as refugees.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: [Inaudible—Editor].

Mr. Jeff LeBane: They will become landed immigrants, and in three years' time, if they wish to apply, they can become Canadian citizens.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: I forgot a supplementary to that, if I may. A question also in my riding was, can you carry two citizenships? Can you maintain your Yugoslavian citizenship and passport and also get your Canadian citizenship?

Mr. Jeff LeBane: Under citizenship legislation, you can hold two citizenships.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Thank you.

Mr. Hunter McGill: On the question respecting the needs of children traumatized by the conflict, Canada is currently supporting two initiatives directly. The first is support to the programs organized and delivered by UNICEF. We've made a $1 million contribution to that program. UNICEF has been working in the camps for some weeks now.

The announcement made by Minister Marleau on Friday about the International Children's Institute is in reflection of that need, which, Madam , you acknowledged is enormous. It is an attempt to help create or improve the capacity in the camps to build on some of the expertise that exists among the Kosovars themselves. They were professionals, some of them coming out of the province, and with some additional assistance of Canadian expertise, they will be able to play their part as well in helping meet the needs of the traumatized children.

Also, as part of several activities we are supporting—the UNICEF activity and also the work of the three Canadian NGOs we funded several weeks ago, CARE Canada, CECI from Montreal, and World Vision—particular attention is being paid to the needs of women and the elderly in the camps. They represent a disproportionate element of the population in the camps, because as Mr. Wright noted in earlier testimony, the men have been held back or have stayed behind for various reasons. It is in fact the female population, the elderly, and the children who have been driven out of the Kosovo province and who constitute the largest group in need.

We are helping efforts to meet their particular requirements, and we are monitoring the situation, as the minister indicated in Tirana on Friday. If opportunities present themselves to do more, we certainly will do so.

Thank you.

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Mrs. Sheila Finestone: [Inaudible—Editor]...the handicapped or not?

Mr. Hunter McGill: None specifically, but the—

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Would you ask about that, please?

Mr. Hunter McGill: Yes, I will.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Thank you.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Mr. Cannis.

Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, before I ask my questions, permit me to mention for the record the good work the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has been doing. In one experience I had, a family had been planning to come here from Yugoslavia to attend a family wedding, and there was disruption in the mail getting to our then offices, so they had great difficulty. The minister and her staff were very helpful in stepping in to make sure that these people who had wished to come here and spend a month in Canada and attend a family wedding were very expeditiously looked after. They didn't segregate between Kosovars and Serbians. I compliment the minister's good work on that.

Let me just say welcome again to all of you. One thing we have to do, with this unfortunate situation that's unfolding over there, is communicate. Your presence here, today and in the past, is very much appreciated, General, Mr. Wright, and everybody.

In one of the responses with respect to the dumping of bombs, I'm not sure if it was you, General, or Mr. Wright who said we can't speak for the other countries. I say this with the greatest of respect, but I find that difficult to accept when this is a NATO initiative, a combined initiative. Am I reading between the lines that all the countries aren't communicating, and the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing? Surely that's not what we'd like to portray out there to the people. Maybe you can elaborate on that.

I want to pick up a line of questioning where my colleague, Mrs. Finestone, left off. She spoke about the general erosion in our constituencies. I want to take this opportunity to brief you as well about what our constituencies are saying.

I picked up on the comment made about the former Deputy Prime Minister, Mr. Draskovic. Some of the comments that come back to our offices are as follows. Several weeks back, when he was officially the Deputy Prime Minister, many people recall him being on television literally pleading to NATO and to all the combined representatives, “Please stop the bombing and let's talk.”

I know I myself, upon hearing that request, thought maybe he was fooling us; maybe they were misleading us. I didn't know. But for the sake of the innocent lives, the children who are unfortunately being killed, and the infrastructure that is literally being destroyed, can we not give somebody the benefit of the doubt? Let's sit around the table and call them to the floor, and if indeed they are misleading us, then collectively the NATO forces and the world as a whole, I believe, will see a different side.

Today we see he is no longer part of the inner circle, as I believe you mentioned, Mr. Wright. In your response, you were talking with a sympathetic tone, where a month or two ago there was no such tone. Maybe you can describe the differences here. Why are we today speaking about him with some sympathy and saying he's a good guy, he has something to say, when two months ago we weren't saying that? This type of double diplomacy is not very healthy for us and our constituencies.

The post-war trauma is something that really bothers me, if I may say. We talked about shock treatment for children. War trauma has to be addressed on both sides, because we have a group of innocent people on both sides today who are involved in this unfortunate circumstance. Somehow, in some way, is there a post-war plan to help both sides in terms of infrastructure, human devastation, etc., that you can tell us about?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LGen Raymond Henault: Perhaps I could make one very brief comment. You were commenting on other nations. Our primary objective in the Canadian headquarters is to track the activities of Canadian Forces aircraft, so we concentrate our efforts on Canadian operations.

• 1615

With a total of over 25,000 missions now and several nations doing operations on a day-to-day basis, we aren't always aware of, nor do we track, the accidental release of bombs, for example, if there was no consequence. Or if there was a deliberate or a controlled release of bombs by another nation during a mission or a sortie, we wouldn't necessarily be made aware of that, because it is, I hate to say, routine. It is relatively routine for those types of things to go on.

So I would like to qualify it in that respect. It's not an intent to limit the amount of information we provide to you, but unless we get a specific request for information in that context, we won't necessarily be tracking it, unless it's specific to Canadian aircraft.

Mr. John Cannis: Let me say, you guys have been fantastic in getting information back to us. I want to put that on the record.

LGen Raymond Henault: Thank you.

Mr. Jim Wright: With respect to Mr. Draskovic and his comments earlier and then later, there has been absolute consistency on the part of the international community, the United Nations, and NATO in terms of what we are looking for the Serb leadership to do.

It was Mr. Draskovic who changed his approach to the leadership in Yugoslavia. The engagement of the international community has not changed at all. What we're asking for from President Milosevic and from Belgrade has remained the same right from the very beginning. We've said President Milosevic can stop this, frankly, whenever he wants to. So I don't think a double standard has been applied here by the international community, by NATO, by the UN, or by Canada.

Secondly, one of the difficulties we have, unfortunately, is this. Much as we would like to give people the benefit of the doubt, we've done this on more than one occasion—we, the international community—with Mr. Milosevic. We've seen the dividends of doing this in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We saw it last fall, when the international community—OSCE, NATO, and others—negotiated a series of agreements with President Milosevic, all of which he broke.

We tried to engage the Serbian leadership in the Rambouillet accords. We tried to bring all sides to the table. We tried to play the role of the honest broker. Again—

Mr. John Cannis: It broke off the moment they started discussing total independence for Kosovo. When they were talking about an autonomous environment, it was fine.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): I'm sorry, Mr. Cannis, but we're 25 minutes over. We have votes tonight. We have another meeting. We have witnesses waiting.

Mr. Jim Wright: Can I just add one very brief comment?

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Sure, just finish that.

Mr. Jim Wright: It picks up also on a point Mrs. Finestone made earlier.

A lot of work is going on behind the scenes with respect to post-conflict Kosovo. A stability pact conference will take place in Brussels on Thursday, which will involve all the lead international agencies—the UN, OSCE, the European Union, and NATO—as well as all of the regional groups involved in and concerned about the crisis in Kosovo. This is one of very many meetings of this nature that will be held in the months ahead.

So people shouldn't assume that all we are concerned about is the military track. It's quite the contrary. We are pursuing the diplomatic track extremely actively, and we are planning for the post-conflict environment very carefully. In fact this is a subject that NATO leaders discussed at some length at the leaders' summit in Washington, as well.

You may not be hearing as much about it, but I can assure you a good deal of work is going on on this, including the issue of winterization for refugees, because even if we had an agreement tomorrow—and we would like that very much, but it's not there yet—we would not be able to bring all the refugees back to Kosovo in advance of winter. So we know right now we're going to have deal with the winterization problem for refugees. The question simply is the scale of that problem.

The UNHCR is developing a plan with other members of the international community. I know Madame Marleau was very concerned with this and discussed it with some of her counterparts in international organizations when she was in Albania. So again, plans are being developed to deal with this situation. We're not waiting to be confronted with the problem. We like to hope for the best, but we always plan for the worst.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Thank you.

General Henault, do you want to make a comment?

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LGen Raymond Henault: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could just close out a question Mrs. Finestone asked that I wasn't able to get to a moment ago.

You referred to peacekeeping versus body bags, I think. Mr. Wright has answered the rest of the questions very eloquently, but I would only say that comment is made in the context of an invasion type of operation—that is, a fighting operation—when it's spoken about in those terms. We're not talking about that at the moment. We're talking about a peacekeeping operation, as opposed to a fighting operation or an invasion force, and that line has been very consistent.

I would only add that we never use the term “body bag” in normal language. All of these operations have a certain risk associated with them, so there always are unfortunate deaths resulting from operations. Even in the peacekeeping context, there very well could be body bags, as we've unfortunately seen from our operations in Bosnia and elsewhere. That is the context, Mrs. Finestone.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Thank you very much.

LGen Raymond Henault: Thank you.

The Acting Co-Chairman (Mr. Hec Clouthier): Thank you very much, General, especially for bailing me out, because Mrs. Finestone was giving me a bit of the evil eye.

Thank you very much for being here.

I might say to Mr. Wright, he's getting to be quite a Ciceronian orator. I think he's been hanging around us politicians too long.

Thank you very much.

This meeting is adjourned.