INDY Committee Meeting
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MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
Meeting No. 70
Thursday, November 5, 1998
The Standing Committee on Industry met at 8:37 a.m. this day, in Room 536, Wellington Building, the Chair, Susan Whelan, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Eugène Bellemare, Antoine Dubé, Rahim Jaffer, Marlene Jennings, Jim Jones, Francine Lalonde, Walt Lastewka, Ian Murray, Janko Peric, Alex Shepherd.
Acting Members present: Deepak Obhrai for Jim Pankiw, Grant Hill for Eric Lowther, John Maloney for Stan Keyes, Nelson Riis for Chris Axworthy and Paul Steckle for Susan Whelan.
In attendance: From the Library of Parliament: Nathalie Pothier and Antony Jackson, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From Industry Canada: Robert Dunlop, Director General; Peter Webber, Team Leader, Small Business Financing; Serge Croteau, Director General; Lenore Scanlon, Legal Counsel.
Pursuant to an Order of Reference of the House dated Tuesday, October 6, 1998, consideration of Bill C-53, An Act to increase the availability of financing for the establishment, expansion, modernization and improvement of small businesses.
On Clause 1
The witnesses answered questions.
Clause 1 was postponed pursuant to Standing Order 75(1).
Clause 2 carried.
On Clause 3 Francine Lalonde moved, - That Clause 3 be amended by adding after line 22 on page 2 the following;
3. The purpose of the law is to give credit access to small business which otherwise would not have access to it for their establishment, expansion, modernisation and improvement. "
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived.
On motion of Walt Lastewka, it was agreed, - That Clause 3 be amended by replacing lines 37 to 39 on page 2 with the following:
"made under the Small Business Loans Act."
On motion of Walt Lastewka, it was agreed, - That Clause 3 be amended by adding after line 39 on page 2 the following;
"(4) Notwithstanding subsection (1), a loan is deemed to meet the conditions set out in subsection 4(1) and to be made to a borrower that meets the criteria set out in subsection 4(2) if
(a) the loan is approved before April 1, 1999 and is made on or after that date but before July 1, 1999; and
(b) either the loan meets the conditions set out in subsection 3(2) of the Small Business Loans Act that would have applied to the loan if it had been made before April 1, 1999, or subsection 3(7) of that Act would have applied with respect to the application of those conditions to the loan."
On Clause 4
Francine Lalonde moved, - That Clause 4 be amended by adding after line 12 on page 3 the following;
"c. 1) loans to finance the purchase or improvement, by the borrower, of real property or immovables necessary for the operation of the borrower's small business;
c. 2) loans to finance existing leasehold improvements or to finance leasehold improvements of real property or immovables of which the borrower is or will become the tenant, which leasehold improvements are made by the borrower and are necessary for the operation of the borrower's small business;
c. 3) loans to finance the purchase, installation or improvement, by the borrower, of equipment necessary for the operation of the borrower's small business;
c. 4) loans to finance the payment by the borrower of registration fees referred to in section 11 of the Act. "
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived.
On Clause 5
At 9:51 a.m., Mr. Bellemare took the Chair.
By unanimous consent, it was agreed, - That the following amendments be proposed and disposed of in one motion.
Accordingly Rahim Jaffer moved, - That Clause 5 be amended by replacing line 37 on page 3 with the following;
"and ultimately the taxpayers are liable to pay a lender any eligible loss,"
Moved, - That Clause 8 be amended by replacing line 15 on page 5 with the following;
"8. The liability of the Minister and ultimately the taxpayers in respect of"
Moved, - That Clause 13 be amended by replacing line 30 on page 6 with the following;
"(2) The Minister's and ultimately the taxpayers' maximum aggregate"
Moved, - That Clause 14 be amended by replacing line 26 on page 7 with the following;
"(h) respecting the extent of the Minister's and the taxpayers'"
Moved, - That Clause 14 be amended by replacing line 32 on page 8 with the following;
"Minister's and taxpayers' liability;"
Moved, - That Clause 14 be amended by replacing line 35 on page 8 with the following;
"Minister's and taxpayers' liability in respect of loans made"
After debate, the question being put on the amendments, it was negatived on the following division;
YEAS:
Rahim Jaffer
Deepak Obhrai
Grant Hill: --3
NAYS:
Sue Barnes
Ian Murray
Eugène Bellemare
Janko Peric
Marlene Jennings
Alex Shepherd
Stan Keyes
Antoine Dubé
Walt Lastewka
Francine Lalonde
Jim Jones: --11
After debate, Clause 3 carried.
Clause 4, 5 and 6 carried severally.
On Clause 7
Walt Lastewka moved, - That Clause 7 be amended by replacing line 2 on page 5 with the following;
"by the borrower or the lender has actual knowledge"
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to, on division.
Clause 7 carried, on division.
Clause 8 carried.
Clause 9 carried.
Clause 10 carried.
Clause 11 carried.
Clause 12 carried.
On Clause 13
Francine Lalonde proposed to move, - That Clause 13, be amended by replacing line 22 on page 6 the following;
"recommendation on the Minister after public consultations with all stakeholders concerned, after report at the standing committee on industry, and after an agreement of this same committee, make any".
RULING OF THE CHAIR
The amendment is out of order because a committee may only make recommendations to the House, which the House may or may not concur in.
Walt Lastewka moved, - That Clause 13 be amended by adding after line 5 on page 7 the following;
"(5) The Minister shall cause a copy of each regulation proposed to be made under subsection (1) to be laid before each House of Parliament before it is made and that House shall refer the proposed regulations to the appropriate Committee of each House."
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, carried, on division.
On Clause 14
Francine Lalonde proposed to move, - That Clause 14 be amended by replacing lines 2 and 3 on page 9 the following;
"be made on the triple recommendation of the Minister, of the Minister of Finance and of the Standing Committee on Industry."
RULING BY THE CHAIR
The amendment is out of order on the same grounds as the amendment previously ruled out of order.
Rahim Jaffer moved, - That Clause 14 be amended by adding after line 3 on page 9 the following;
"(3) Before a regulation made under subsection (1) comes into effect, the Minister shall cause a copy of the regulation to be laid before the Standing Committee of the House of Commons on Industry as soon as possible after the regulation is made, and that Committee shall report on the regulation to each House of Parliament on any of the first fifteen days on which that House is sitting after the day on which the Committee's report is prepared".
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following division;
YEAS:
Rahim Jaffer
Antoine Dubé
Grant Hill
Francine Lalonde
Deepak Obhrai: --5
NAYS:
Nelson Riis
Walt Lastewka
Jim Jones
Ian Murray
Sue Barnes
Janko Peric
Marlene Jennings
Alex Shepherd
Stan Keyes: --9
Walt Lastewka moved, - That Clause 13 be amended by adding after line 3 on page 9 the following;
"(3) The Minister shall cause a copy of each regulation proposed to be made under subsection (1) to be laid before each House of Parliament before it is made and that House shall refer the proposed regulations to the appropriate Committee of each House."
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to, on division.
On Clause 15
Walt Lastewka moved, - That Clause 15 be amended by replacing line 4 on page 9 with the following;
"15. (1) The Minister may, after giving at least twenty-one days notice"
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to, on division.
Walt Lastewka moved, - That Clause 15 be amended by replacing, in the English version, line 15 on page 9 with the following;
"(2) The documents, records and books of ac-"
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.
Walt Lastewka moved, - That Clause 15 be amended by replacing line 30 on page 9 with the following;
"of the audit or examination. Without the permission of the lender, the authorized person shall not remove the documentation or copies from the relevant sites."
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.
Walt Lastewka moved, - That Clause 15 be amended by replacing lines 31 to 34 on page 9 with the following;
"(4) The Minister shall provide the lender with a copy of the report of the audit or examination within twenty-one days after the report is completed.
(5) If a lender refuses or intentionally fails to comply with any requirement of this section, the Minister"
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to, on division.
Clause 15 carried on division.
Clause 16 carried.
By unanimous consent, clauses 17 to 22 carried.
Clause 1 carried on division.
The Title carried on division.
The Bill, as amended, carried on division.
Ordered: That the Chair report Bill C-53, with amendment, to the House.
Ordered: That Bill C-53, An Act to increase the availability of financing for the establishment, expansion, modernization and improvement of small businesses, as amended, be reprinted for the use of the House of Commons, at Report Stage.
At 10:47 a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
Elizabeth B. Kingston
Clerk of the Committee