FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, February 16, 1999

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[English]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.)): Order, please, for the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. It's with a great deal of pleasure that we welcome our guests this morning.

Welcome, Mr. Savi, President of the Parliament of Estonia. We all admire this long journey that you're undertaking and we are very anxious to hear your presentation. Perhaps you would like to introduce the others who are with you. Since we have such a short period of time, I think we'd like to get right into your presentation after your introductions.

Mr. Toomas Savi (Speaker and President, Riigikogu, Republic of Estonia): Thank you. Good morning from our side also. On behalf of the whole delegation, let me say that I'm very happy and very thankful to be here. I thank you for the nice hospitality we've been met with. This is our first morning here, but it seems to me that we have been living here the whole week.

If you'll allow me, I will introduce our delegation. Mrs. Talvi Märja is the chair of our cultural committee, a professor at the university and the representative of the Coalition Party. This is a government party. We have a minority government.

Next is Mr. Tiit Käbin, chairman of the constitutional affairs committee and the representative of the Reform Party/Liberals.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Toomas Savi: Pardon?

Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): That's an inside joke, sir.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Not so inside.

Mr. Toomas Savi: Next is Ambassador Kalev Stoicescu, who visits your country often, I know. He is ambassador to the United States and to Canada.

The next gentleman is Mr. Eiki Nestor—it's not Heiki, but Eiki, and that's our inside joke—who is the representative of the moderate party, a member of the Socialist International party. He works in our financial committee and is an ex-minister from the second government after the independence of Estonia.

Last is Heiki Sibul, the secretary general of our Parliament.

I am also a representative of the Reform Party/Liberals, so we have two members of this party in our delegation here.

As you may or may not know, the chairman and two vice-chairmen do not work in committees. We can visit all the meetings of committees, and we have the right to take the floor, but we do not have the right to vote there.

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The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Thank you.

Welcome, everyone.

Do you have a presentation?

Mr. Toomas Savi: As you first mentioned, we have only 45 minutes, and I think that if I talk for 40 minutes it won't be interesting.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): So we'll get down to the nitty-gritty and the questions, right?

Mr. Toomas Savi: If our level of English is all right, we will not use an interpreter because it takes more time. We have questions for you and I think you have questions for us.

One thing I want to mention is that are some points at which we meet; if we talk about parliamentary “co-work”, it means the international parliamentary organization union, the IPU. We have a very active working group and I know that they have also been working with your members of Parliament and with the Twelve plus One Committee. This is a meeting point.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): We have very fine representation on the IPU from Madam Finestone.

Mr. Toomas Savi: Maybe I'll say a couple of words about the situation in Estonia now. We adopted our state budget in December. It's balanced. Just recently we have lost two weeks' work because we have general elections on March 7, so we are doing our electoral campaign here in Canada and losing votes in Estonia.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Thank you. We'll get on with the dialogue and questioning.

Mr. Mills.

Mr. Bob Mills: I certainly would like to welcome members of the Reform Party from Estonia—

Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Reform Party/Liberals—

Mr. Bob Mills: —and other members as well. I guess they're part of the “united alternative”.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Bob Mills: I have several questions for whoever wants to answer.

First of all, I'd like to know about the present state of the Russia-Estonia relationship. That relates to NATO, of course. As well, I'd like to know about the Russian minorities within Estonia. As you progress with your Parliament, I wonder about the tensions or the problems that might be there.

I'd also like to hear your comments on the European Union, on your relationship and where that stands.

Fourthly, with respect to Kosovo, I know that your Parliament and several others have indicated an interest in participating in a Kosovo mission. Could you comment on that as well, please?

Mr. Toomas Savi: If you will allow me to start, maybe I will say only a few words about our relations with Russia, our great neighbour. I have to tell you that Estonia's relations with Russia are far better than they were a couple of years ago—this is a first—at least in terms of rhetoric.

Nevertheless, the absence of important bilateral agreements impedes normal development. For example, we have a border agreement that is absolutely ready and needs signing. The Estonian side has been ready all year, and we are waiting for it to be done. Russia sometimes finds more things for us to talk about, but today there is an agenda, and no more is there a problem of Russian minorities. There was a year ago, but today we are not talking more about that. That's some kind of restriction of...[Inaudible—Editor].

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Of course, Russia continuously opposed Estonian progress in joining the EU and NATO. Today, our highest priority is not the EU, because we are just at the stage where we are sitting around the negotiation table and doing our homework. We are hammering out our legislative basis with the EU and teaching our civil servants to get to a level sufficiently high enough that they are able to negotiate with the EU.

Today, our first priority, strategically and politically, is NATO. As I mentioned, Russia opposes this question, but we are an independent state and of course we ourselves will decide what to do about our relations with Russia.

Mr. Tiit Käbin (Deputy and Chairman of the Constitutional Affairs Committee, Riigikogu, Republic of Estonia): Some changes were made to our citizenship law last year. Now, if both parents are not Estonian citizens and the child was born in Estonia after the restoration of independence, they apply for citizenship for the child only. It's simply an application. There are no more requirements. The same amendments were made in Latvia.

Talking about laws on national minorities, in 1993 the law on cultural autonomy of Russian minorities was adopted. This law was based on our old law from 1925 and many people say that this law on national minorities is one of the most democratic in the world.

Ms. Märja will continue.

Ms. Talvi Märja (Deputy and Chair of the Committee on Culture, Riigikogu, Republic of Estonia): Thank you very much.

I'll continue with your question about Russian minorities from our committee's side, because most of our new laws or amendments to existing laws are of course part of that question, especially those including or connected with educational problems. Of course we try to have the integration of the Russian “community”, as we say, not only of minorities, because the Russian-speaking community is much bigger than the minority community.

For example, we just passed amendments to a language law. Also, today we have a new law on kindergartens. We started at the lowest level of connecting with education and, for example, we added to this law that for kindergartners who are poor Russian-speaking children, there has to be a teacher paid by the government who teaches the children the Estonian language. We know that integration could and should include the teaching of the Estonian language. Since last year we have the post of teacher of “state language”. The post is not even for “Estonian language teacher in Russian-speaking schools” but for state teacher, and her or his salary is twice as high as a normal teacher's salary. Also, the government pays for their movements to the other parts of Estonia where mostly Russian-speaking people live.

It was quite interesting to see that the biggest fighters against that were our Russian colleagues in Parliament. They thought it would be discrimination against other teachers whose salaries were lower, but these state language teachers also have to teach other teachers and others living in those areas.

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With this year's budget, there is the possibility of hiring 200 such teachers for all over Estonia. Also with this budget, we have a lot of money for teaching the Estonian language to Russians. As Mr. President mentioned already, we have a program—and others—and in the budget, there are about 40 million Estonian kroons for the teaching of the Estonian language.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Eiki Nestor (Deputy and Member of the Economic Affairs Committee, Riigikogu, Republic of Estonia): Colleagues, I am also a member of the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe. Canada is an observer state. This organization is the main upholder of human rights in Europe. Actually, when the Council of Europe stopped the monitoring procedure in Estonia, their only remark was about the education of the Russian minorities.

The OSCE also made its remarks and, as I understand it, nowadays the Estonian state does everything the OSCE wants. So there are actually no more questions, for example, in the Council of Europe, like there were a few years ago. When we saw our colleagues then, they would start with a question about the situation with the Russian minority. In Europe, they don't ask us such questions any more because they know what the situation really is.

The main question is the problem of the integration of these people into Estonian society. Now there is a state program adopted by the government. As a member of the opposition, I must say that the opposition was also involved in this process to adopt this integration program. I think the future of the Russian-speaking minority lies with integration into Estonian society.

With respect to the European Union, we have started with the negotiations. As I understand it, they are successful. If we compare ourselves to other applicant countries, the Estonian situation is not bad at all. We see that the biggest problem in Estonia will not be to legislate the work but to build up the civil society to the same level as that in the European Union. Maybe that will take even more time.

By the way, the euro has now existed for more than one month. We have a currency board system and we have very tough financial regulations. On the legislative side, it's not a problem for Estonia to become a member of the euro group on the same day that we become members of the European Union. Of course we know that the problem is, “how good are our goods?” How good is what we sell to the world? But in the legislative way, it's not a problem at all.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Mr. Sibul, could we hear from you on the next round? We want everyone to have an opportunity to ask their questions.

[Translation]

Mr. Daniel Turp: Thank you very much. I believe we can rely on the interpretation, but I will put my questions in English.

By way of an introduction, I would like to welcome you to our Parliament on behalf of the Bloc Québécois, and on behalf of my colleagues Benoît Sauvageau and Réal Ménard. I believe Mr. Ménard visited your country once with a group of parliamentarians.

We the members of the Bloc Québécois welcome the opportunity to speak with representatives of a new state, or rather one that regained its independence a few years ago. As you may know, our goal is also for Quebec to achieve nationhood. We believe small states have a role to play in the international community.

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Do you feel your people have benefited from independence? Was fighting for your country's independence a wise course of action?

[English]

My second question is on the issue of citizenship. My question is to the members, maybe to the chairman of the constitutional committee, who probably has had a key role in defining the role of citizenship in the constitution and in law. Where do your laws stand on citizenship, especially on the issue of the citizenship of the people belonging to the Russian minority? I understand the OSCE had some comments and some requests. What have you done with those requests?

Mr. Toomas Savi: First, with respect to that first question, in 1976 I was in Canada at the Olympic Games in Montreal and I remember some kind of war about the French and English languages and Quebec and more. That was my memory of Quebec.

Another answer for you is that Estonia is not a small state. Estonia declared itself an independent state on February 24, 1918. We were independent and we have now re-established our independence. Furthermore, I want to say that Estonia was a member of the whole of Europe at that time and only the Soviet occupation made us a part of the Soviet Union. As you know, Canada and the United States never recognized that. This is my answer for the first question.

Mr. Tiit Käbin: In 1992, we reinforced our old citizenship law from 1938. The requirements are three years' permanent residency in Estonia, a knowledge of the Estonian language and a knowledge of basic principles of the constitution.

Later, we changed this law. Now the requirement for permanent residency is five years, because many Russians are not interested in learning the Estonian language. They obtained citizenship in the Russian Federation through registration. It was very simple for them. They had only to go to the Russian Federation's embassy and, through registration, on the same day they would receive a passport from the Russian Federation. For those people who are not citizens of Estonia but of the Russian Federation, we issue travel documents so they don't have any trouble with travelling.

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Here are some figures. The Estonian population is less than 1.5 million. More than 100,000 Russians have been registered as citizens of the Russian Federation. This is a problem for us and is still—

Mr. Daniel Turp: Could you repeat those figures? In Estonia, there is a Russian minority of 30%...?

Mr. Tiit Käbin: Yes, approximately.

Mr. Daniel Turp: So that means about...?

Mr. Tiit Käbin: Thirty per cent are Russians, but as minorities under the law of Estonia, only citizens of Estonia.... We have, of course, Russian minorities. There were Russians who lived on the eastern border near Lake Peipsi. Before World War II, we had large minorities of Germans, Swedes and Jews, but most of the Germans and Swedes left Estonia before World War II. What we are talking about, you have to understand, is that of course they are not really Russians but Russian-speaking people. They are not really Russians. There are thousands and thousands of Ukrainians, Russians, Tartars and others.

Mr. Daniel Turp: But have you implemented the changes in terms of citizenship that the OSCE has asked for? Did the OSCE ask that children, for example, be granted automatic citizenship?

Mr. Tiit Käbin: Yes.

Mr. Daniel Turp: Have you done that?

Mr. Tiit Käbin: Yes—

Mr. Daniel Turp: When was this done?

Mr. Tiit Käbin: —this was a recommendation by Mr. Max van der Stoel. There is still a commissioner and...it was done in December last year.

Mr. Daniel Turp: In December?

Mr. Tiit Käbin: Yes.

He still doesn't have any more recommendations.

Mr. Eiki Nestor: May I say some words to explain the situation of these people in Estonia? When we became independent, for most of these people it was some kind of shock. I must say that one-third of these people are Estonian citizens and they are ready and they are integrated into the society. They made the decision.

One-third of them made the decision too not to vote for the Estonian Parliament but to vote in the Estonian local elections—because they have the right—and to vote for the Russian president. Why not? They decided to be Russian citizens.

For these two groups, the situation is understandable and normal. There are no differences between the groups in social security or in working life or in whatever.

There is a third part to these people. How do I explain this? They still want to live in the Soviet Union, but the problem is that this state doesn't exist any more. For them, it takes a little bit more time to make their choice: do they want to be citizens of Estonia or do they want to be citizens of Russia, of the Ukraine or of whatever?

With respect to this program of the integration of these people, it mainly worked for these two groups, whereas the citizens of Russia, these people, have not yet decided what to do.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Thank you.

Mr. Patry.

M. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Merci beaucoup, madame la présidente, thank you.

It seems that for Estonia there were two major problems in regard to being accepted into the European Union: one was a problem with granting citizenship—and you just answered the question—and the other one seemed to be a little bit about the boundaries between Estonia and Russia. Did you make any progress in this treaty between Russia and Estonia?

My second question: in regard to Canada and Estonia, are there any problems apart from visa problems occurring between our two countries?

I have another little question, if you have time: do any members of Parliament in Estonia come from minorities?

Mr. Grigore-Kalev Stoicescu (Estonian Ambassador to Canada): Thank you, Madam Chairman.

First of all, in terms of the EU, we started real negotiations last year after a period of half a year of screening, so to speak, in selecting the priorities that we're going to talk about. We have started negotiations on 31 chapters, as we call them, on all aspects of life that our government is concerned with. Besides the military sphere—which is not in the EU—we are negotiating on all the other spheres.

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We are progressing very well. Under the German chairmanship, we again see progress, although there was a bit of a concern that the changes in Germany might slow down the whole process, which wouldn't concern only Estonia but Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovenia as well. We are the group of five that have started. Estonia has been the only Baltic state selected due to its high performance in the establishment of democratic institutions and in terms of high economic performance as well.

Here again, in the EU reports that recommended us in the first group of the ones who have done best, there were some hints about the questions you mentioned. But as all the members of our group mentioned, including the speaker, the OSCE recommendations—more exactly, the 30 recommendations made by the OSCE High Commissioner on National Minorities—have been absolutely fulfilled. Estonia may be considered to be an exemplary country in this sense.

We have even made a synopsis of whatever has been suggested for us to do in the past five years and of what we have done. I have been the Estonian ambassador to the OSCE for four years and have dealt directly with these issues, and I don't remember a single other one of the 55 countries of the OSCE having the courage to do that. We have done it, and I think that we take as a standard the European standards, the EU standards, and I think our standards for citizenship are far lower than they are in most of the countries of the EU.

Also, if the EU says it's okay, then we think it's okay. If the Russians say it's not okay, they can live with that idea that it's not okay. We are not going to do it the way the Russians suggest we do it. In the so-called Commonwealth of Independent States, they may try to enforce different standards. However, we are definitely not going to join that community but the European Union, so we are guided by the EU standards in this sense.

We may still see some kind of Russian rhetoric in the coming months and years, perhaps, still continuing as a kind of inertia because it cannot suddenly stop. But as was pointed out, our relations are indeed far better than they used to be. Officially, of course, the Russians do not oppose our membership in the EU. They may even have some interest in that. They may not like that, perhaps, because we are simply slipping away, so to speak. There we are. But we have always belonged to Europe. It's our rightful place.

Where they are more vociferous is in the NATO sphere, because they see this according to the old mentality: that we would become an American military base under Saint Petersburg, which we are not. It's simply the old mentality. They do not understand the real changes that are going on in Europe, the real changes that are going on within the alliance and so on and so forth.

There is no reason for not accepting Estonia into the alliance. Now we see how consensus is building around the idea to mention seven candidates, including Estonia, at the Washington summit. That is a parallel approach with the EU, if I understand it correctly, which has 10 candidates for EU membership, of which three have already been selected for NATO membership. The other seven are going to be mentioned in the declaration on enlargement as being continuously supported in their application for membership.

We are definitely going to prepare ourselves from all points of view. When we are ready, I am sure, we intend to increase our defence budget to 2% of the GDP in the coming three years. We want to become militarily ready to join the alliance. The other question is, when will the alliance be ready to accept us as such? They should find the proper moment for that.

But again, the Russian rhetoric here is not and should not be the determining factor. Rather than look at what the Russians say, look at what the Russians do. There are three basic objections when people think of us: you are so little; you are a neighbour of Russia; and you are not quite defensible in these terms. But we certainly do have answers to all of these questions.

I won't keep the floor for any longer. This is just to say that we hope this continuous debate will bring us closer to the alliance.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Mr. Savi.

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Mr. Toomas Savi: I will answer the second question very briefly. In our Parliament, we have 101 seats. From these, six belong to the Russian faction, and they are for representatives of the Russian-speaking so-called minority. Minority is not the right word, but we use it. They are, of course, citizens of Estonia. One more thing I want to tell you is that we have one representative of the Swedish minority in our Parliament.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Thank you. When you're answering these questions, especially Mr. Turp's, do you feel like you're walking on eggshells? Because you are.

Mr. Daniel Turp: The ambassador was thinking that.

Voices: Oh, oh.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Thank you. Mr. Reed.

Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is a very simple question. Historically, when you were tied to the Soviet Union, there was a lot of business exchange. Estonia generates a lot of electric power that was wheeled into Russia. I wonder if you still do that. Are you now, on a business basis, exporting power into Russia? If you are, do you get paid?

Voices: Oh, oh.

Mr. Eiki Nestor: Yes, we are, but it's a very untypical business. Russia pays for this power to send to the mines. They send fuel to the electric power station and they get their electricity back. There really are problems when Russia doesn't pay. We have a city, Narva, on the border with Russia, and on the other side is Novgorod. Now they are two cities in two different states. The water system of these two cities is the same and is based in Estonia. It's a real problem that this city doesn't pay for its water. The Estonian government paid for it a couple of times, but it seems to me that it's a problem all the time. Their bills are rising all the time.

Mr. Julian Reed: Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Thank you. Madam Finestone.

Hon. Sheila Finestone (Mount Royal, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chairman.

It is a pleasure to welcome you here. You raised a question that I hadn't thought of. I would presume, therefore, that the signing of the border agreements would be a very significant step and would perhaps include water and electricity.

Mr. Grigore-Kalev Stoicescu: They are not linked. I used to head our delegation in negotiations with Russia before I took my post in Washington, and I must assure you that on my desk I have the book, Negotiating with the Soviets. That was one point I wanted to mention.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Mr. Grigore-Kalev Stoicescu: The other point is that we achieved a breakthrough there. We got the language that we wanted on the political side—which was shortened because there was no agreement on it. Everything that was not agreed to was taken out of there, so it's practically zero. It's a technical agreement saying where the border lies, which is, 98%, the actual border that we have nowadays, so there would be very minor changes that are beneficial to both sides on a mutual basis.

In fact, I might say that the difference among the Finnish, the Russian and the Estonian-Russian borders is that we lack two signatures. The other difference, perhaps, may be that our border is even better guarded than theirs. That's the second border. That was a very important factor while we were looked at before anyone was chosen to start negotiations on membership in the EU, because that is the prospective EU border—to the east. You can imagine that the EU scrutinized us very closely.

Politically, of course, the key question was whether or not Russia could keep us hostage because of unwillingness to sign this agreement. We were begging the EU, saying that they could see we did everything in our power to prepare the agreement for signature and we could not do any more. In their usual tactics for getting a signature, they would sell the document seven times. We have made a deal. We have a text. We need to take up the pen and sign it. The Russians have played themselves internally into a corner, of course, and they cannot find a solution to signing the agreement without having to get something from the Estonians, so to speak.

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That's why, perhaps, a change in leadership in Russia may facilitate that. Perhaps it might come earlier. We don't know. We are simply waiting to see when they are ready to sign it, but the EU was clear on that point. It has recognized that Estonia has done everything possible and that this cannot impede the integration of Estonia into Europe.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Could it become a source of conflict?

Mr. Grigore-Kalev Stoicescu: No, it cannot, because it is not anything—just two signatures. We have a border, it's guarded and there are no territorial claims or anything. It is simply sometimes misinterpreted by Russian analysts and is said to be “a territorial dispute” simply because of the fact that Russia has not signed the agreement. There is no such dispute.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: If I may, I'm going to come to the question of Y2K and whether you are ready for the millennium and the potential millennium bugs that could be found in the Y2K, but I want just a clarification on the question of parents.

I believe you said that a child born on Estonian territory can apply for citizenship. If they are Russian, the parents could still apply for citizenship for that child. Does that give the citizenship to the parents as well? Is the application made so that you could have a child of Estonian nationality and citizenship with parents who are Russian or Ukrainian or of some other country? Is that accurate?

Mr. Tiit Käbin: No. The citizenship is not for the parents, only for the child.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: So therefore it is the child who would receive it and not the parents.

Mr. Tiit Käbin: Yes.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: I make no comment on that.

Last, I would like to ask—if you wouldn't mind answering the Y2K question after this one—about the question of cults. The Russian courts are involved with a case about Jehovah's Witnesses and the concern for religious diversity, which is not being well received in the Russian federation. Does the law on cults or on religious freedom and pluralism or diversity have any impact in Estonia?

Mr. Eiki Nestor: We don't have such so-called state religions in Estonia. Most Estonians are Protestants. There is a large number of Russian Orthodox. We don't have any problems of the kind Russia has with respect to cults. In Estonia, I must say, it's not a problem at all. It's a typical European country. You are free to believe whatever you want.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Thank you very much. Could you answer the Y2K question? Are your institutions, your computers, etc., all ready and prepared to move into the year 2000 without too many of the problems that could affect commerce, your great commercial—

Mr. Toomas Savi: That's a very good question. Thank you.

Mr. Ambassador?

Mr. Grigore-Kalev Stoicescu: I will say just a few words, while you can say more on the parliamentary side.

On the governmental side, at least, I must say that we are fully prepared. Everything bad has something good in it, perhaps, in the sense that we were so backward in terms of computerization that everything we have acquired in the past six or seven years is ultramodern and up to date. We have literally stepped over that path, while computers made before that and still in use have brought this Y2K problem with them. Somehow we have been saved from that.

We are certainly looking very seriously at it so as not to have any problems anywhere. In terms of our own network within the government and from the banks or whatever to air control, everything seems to be okay at this point.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Does that include your electricity and control panels on electricity and water-flow systems and everything else?

Mr. Grigore-Kalev Stoicescu: Yes.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Okay. Thank you very much. Welcome here. I hope you enjoy your stay.

Mr. Toomas Savi: Maybe I can say a couple of words concerning Parliament. In the last days of last year, we opened our information systems sheet and the Internet. Today I met a nice girl in your Parliament, who told me how nice my plenary session hall is. She has never been in Estonia—it was the Internet, the web site.

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Mr. Daniel Turp: What's the address of your web site?

Mr. Heiki Sibul (Secretary General, Riigikogu, Republic of Estonia): It's www.riigikogu.ee.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Thank you.

Mr. Grigore-Kalev Stoicescu: If I may, I have one more comment to make on this point, and that is to say that we're proud of being one of the most computerized countries in Europe right now, having surpassed Italy, France, Belgium and many other western European countries in terms of Internet connections per capita.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): When I was in Bosnia, I believe, I was paired with a young woman from Estonia, who readily handed out her Internet address and said we could communicate by Internet. However, it would be one-way communication, because I still haven't learned how to do it.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Ms. Talvi Märja: May I add that three years ago we started a program called Tiger Leap? It means that we want to put computer and Internet service in all of our schools.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: Wonderful.

Ms. Talvi Märja: Many of them have it already, so children are prepared and are doing very well in computers.

Mrs. Sheila Finestone: It might be of interest to our Estonian guests to have them link into the Canadian SchoolNet, which would indicate to them some of the programming we're doing with our children through SchoolNet.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Yes, I'm sure it would be.

Mr. Turp.

Mr. Daniel Turp: I have just a short question.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): We thank our guests for extending their visit here.

Mr. Daniel Turp: You haven't mentioned the Baltic Council. What is happening to the Baltic Council in light of EU accession? Does it exist and is it important?

Mr. Eiki Nestor: I must say, for example, that in the Council of Europe the Baltic states are on exactly the same team. We start every week in some common meeting. Both councils are working very hard. They have their meetings. There was also the Nordic Council. We have not yet built up a body like the Committee of Ministers.

In a way, I would like to have the Baltic states more open to discussing where we are, where have a competition between us and where we are colleagues. Sometimes it seems to me that we're not very sure about it. At the parliamentarian level, they are very active. Their last meeting, by the way, was in Helsinki last week. I think the future will be to find some kind of body common to the Nordic Council and Baltic Council.

Mr. Toomas Savi: I would like to add a couple of words. We also have the Baltic Assembly, which means that every Baltic state parliament will have its 20 representatives. This is the Baltic Assembly. The Baltic Council means that our prime minister is working at the same level. They do different things; they are not working or cooperating very nicely. We believe we can improve this work. The Baltic Assembly exists on the parliamentary level, and the council, the prime minister and the three Baltic presidents meet often, as you know. It works.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Thank you.

Mr. Calder, very quickly.

Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Poland is into a very aggressive rebuilding program right now too.

Eiki, I know you were the regional development minister in the previous government. What kind of rebuilding program do you or does the government now have in place to address that, seeing that you're going to be—and are—an active member of the EU?

Mr. Eiki Nestor: Actually, I was very lucky because I was the first development minister. When we got independence and democracy, we were very eager to build up the free market. Everybody believed that with the free market all the problems disappeared. I was actually the first minister to explain that we needed to plan. Actually, somebody even said to me that I was some kind of bad guy from those old days because I started to explain that we needed some kind of regional policy in Estonia too.

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Really, there is a problem in Estonia. As a capital, Tallinn is developing very well; it's in our nature. But it's not so funny in the countryside. That's the first and the most important issue: to build up work in the countryside. The number of jobs in agriculture is decreasing. The problem is, how do we find new work for these people?

Also, Tallinn must stay in the position of being a very developed city, because if we're a full member of the European Union.... Helsinki and Tallinn are now like twins. There are 5 million passengers travelling between Helsinki and Tallinn every year. If we are full members in the EU, I'm afraid that some kinds of well-paid work for the highly educated will be done in Helsinki and the work for the not so highly educated will be done in Tallinn. That's why I even say sometimes that maybe it will be some kind of common city. But what to call it? If we are playing with the names “Helsinki” and “Tallinn”, it could be Talsinki or Hellinn—

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Eiki Nestor: —and I don't want that city to be called Hellinn.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): We very much appreciate you having taken the extra few minutes to answer some of our questions. I know that everyone has enjoyed this. We wish it could have been longer. We certainly we wish you every success on your journey. Thank you.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Colleen Beaumier): Meeting adjourned.