FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, February 12, 1998

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[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.): I would like to call this meeting of the House foreign affairs and international trade committee to order.

We are very pleased to have with us today Mr. Wei Jingsheng, who has come from China. Some have described him as the father of the democratic movement in China. He is a prominent journalist and human rights activist.

We are very pleased, sir, to have you with us today.

With Mr. Wei is Mr. Michael To, who is the international president of the Federation for a Democratic China. Mr. To will introduce our guest to us, I understand Mr. Wei will make a short fifteen-minute statement, and then the members will have an opportunity to ask Mr. Wei questions.

Mr. To.

Mr. Michael To (International President, Federation for a Democratic China): Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, today I'm very glad and honoured to be able to bring to all of you Mr. Wei Jingsheng. For those of you who do not know Mr. Wei Jingsheng's biography, allow me to use a few minutes to explain Mr. Wei Jingsheng's background.

In 1966, when China was thrown into the turmoil of the cultural revolution, Mr. Wei was a teenager just finishing junior high school. Like other members his age, he very quickly joined the Red Guard. At that time he was still a believer of the Mao thought and the communist system. However, in his mind there were many unanswered questions. He and some of his friends decided to tour the country to see for themselves what the true reality was, and the true reality shocked him. It therefore changed his mind about what a country's authority was telling the people is a truth and what a true truth is.

As a result, in 1979, at the age of 29, Mr. Wei boldly called for the fifth modernization of the country, which was to call for democracy. As well, he warned the population of the tendency or possibility of Mr. Deng Xiaoping becoming the next dictator. For that, Mr. Wei was thrown into jail for the next fourteen and a half years.

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In September 1993 the Chinese government wanted to bid for the year 2000 Olympics. As a bid for that, they released Mr. Wei a half a year early from his fifteen-year sentence. For the next seven months Mr. Wei enjoyed a brief period of freedom. Freshly out of prison, he was undaunted and continued his fight for human rights and democracy.

In April 1994 he was re-arrested and sentenced to another fourteen years in jail. This time, he was charged with attempting to overthrow the government. The evidence the government gave was that Mr. Wei intended to organize an art exhibit in Japan. As well, he invested in a local credit union.

In total, Mr. Wei spent eighteen years in jail. In those eighteen years he was often tortured, beaten, and spent long periods of time in solitary confinement, sometimes even up to a year. During those periods, he would not be allowed to eat fresh vegetables and was not allowed outside in the sun. As a result, he lost most of his teeth and developed a heart ailment. But he persevered. He held on to his beliefs. He continues to soldier for human rights and democracy.

Ladies and gentlemen, what we have in front of us is a one-man army—one man against a party that has fifty million members—showing the world that human spirit cannot be subjugated. That is the legacy of Mr. Wei's struggle. So without further ado, I present to you Mr. Wei.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. To. We look forward to Mr. Wei's comments.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Laogai Research Foundation) (Interpretation): Since everybody is very interested in foreign affairs and international relations, I will talk more about this area.

As a democratic party, when people pay attention to foreign affairs they do not only pay attention to the relationship between the king and president; they also attach attention and importance to the relationship between people.

Chinese people usually have very positive and wonderful feelings towards Canadian people. I think Canadian people also have wonderful feelings towards Chinese people.

For many years we have seen that the relationship between Canada and China is mostly focused upon governmental and trade relationships.

In China, we often see on the television or read in the newspapers that Canadian officials such as the Prime Minister of Canada pay visits to China, praising the achievements of the Chinese Communist Party.

What's more appalling is that in order to promote Canadian trade in wheat and other products, the Canadian government does not attach great importance to what the Chinese Communist Party has done, and even praises some of their doings. That type of assessment has very much negatively impacted the Chinese people's feelings towards Canada.

• 1525

Also, for many Chinese people it has resulted in confusion about the social system in Canada. They do not understand why a government in a democratic state, on behalf of its people, would help to sing praises about an oppressive government, especially those killers and massacrers of the people.

Some third world poor countries, for economic reasons or to earn a little more money, bend to such types of pressure. We do understand that. But we do not understand it when a rich country like Canada, in order to earn very small money, sells the democratic principles of the country.

So a lot of Chinese people are confused. They have the feeling that maybe the Chinese Communist Party was right in doing what it did and also that maybe the democratic system in the western world is just a façade.

A few moments ago the foreign affairs minister of Canada explained to me that the Canadian government does support the democratic movement in China and supports the struggles of Chinese people to earn more political rights.

On one hand, I think probably the efforts by the Canadian government did not achieve very obvious results, so we did not see very real achievements in that area. On the other hand, we think the some of the approaches of the Canadian government probably resulted in some errors in judgment, and in reality we see a lot of projects and programs between the Government of Canada and the Communist Party Government of China. Especially a lot of money was put into that area, but in terms of pro-democracy movements and the assistance directly to the Chinese people, we do not see great results.

We didn't have a chance to talk further with the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Canada because he was having lunch with the vice-president of Cuba. So I would like to take this opportunity to discuss and explain some of the problems I see in the foreign policy of Canada.

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I think the first problem is that in supporting the Chinese democracy movement and the struggle for human rights the attitude of the Canadian government is not very clear and also the position is not very strong, so that resulted in the focus of the Canadian government's assistance on what mainly were some projects by the Chinese Communist Party. And especially some Canadian moneys were used in some projects to further cheat the Canadian people.

I would like to call your attention to the rethinking of the Canadian foreign policy. Where should the focus of the Canadian foreign policy be put? Should it be put towards the people of China and the democratic movement of China or should it be put to the oppressive regime and the killers of the people?

Now I'm ready to answer all your questions.

The Chairman: Xie xie, Wei Jingsheng.

I have to stop there, not because I don't speak Chinese, but because the translators would be confused.

Voices: Oh, oh.

The Chairman: Thank you for your comments. We now have members who would like to ask you questions.

Mr. Mills.

Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): I have two or maybe three questions just to focus on this.

First of all, to govern a country of 1.25 billion people seems to me to be just an overwhelming task, and with respect to much of what we think of as democracy and the ins and outs of democracy, I wonder if it truly could work in China because of the huge population.

I'll just ask about three questions and ask you to keep the answers as brief as you can, please.

Mr. Wei Jinsheng (Interpretation): Canada's population is about 20 million and the United States' population is 200 million, so that's 10 times what the Canadian population is, but I do not think the democratic system in the United States is inferior to that of Canada.

The Chinese population is less than 10 times that of the United States and I think the Chinese people are also very intelligent and smart people. They would find an appropriate method to govern successfully our 1.2 billion people in our country—or even 1.5 billion or 1.6 billion people—using the appropriate method in the democratic system.

I think fundamentally it is a question of principle. It is a question about every person. It is not a question about the number of people.

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Mr. Bob Mills: Okay. But in the modernization that is taking place in China now, the privatization of much of the state-run business is certainly creating large unemployment problems, more so in some places than in others. I wonder if Mr. Wei sees this as being destabilizing in terms of the present government, with unemployment rates rising to, we understand, 20% or higher in some areas.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Interpretation): The privatization experienced by China is nowhere near the type of privatization you know of in the western countries. Actually, the Chinese people raised the question of privatization in the early 1980s, but the Chinese Communist Party refused to deal with it. At the beginning they put the ownership of the state-owned enterprises under the control to those corrupt officials and their relatives. When the resources were all emptied, they then put the heavy burden of those enterprises on the general public or gave it to foreigners. The real economic situation of those enterprises is not that of their apparent situation. That's the reason why a lot of workers will be left out of those enterprises in the process.

The Chinese Communist Party thinks those surplused workers are heavy burdens because it does not have the ability to feed all of them. They therefore throw them out to society and blame the privatization procedure for the unemployment of those workers, as if the party does not have any responsibility in it. That type of dealing has already irritated a lot of people in China, including the general public, the unemployed workers, and also some people on the edge of unemployment.

The reality in China nowadays is that if you count the number of unemployed workers, as well as those who have apparently not lost their jobs but are not receiving wages, that percentage has already risen above 20%. The same number of people are now leaving the countryside to look for jobs in the cities but are not able to find a job yet. So those are equal numbers.

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I have talked to many officials in the western countries and members of Parliament of many countries. I am warning that China has already entered into a very unstable situation and big troubles may still be ahead. This is a serious problem, which we have to deal with in real terms.

Mr. Bob Mills: I have another question. If you talk to the Chinese government—and you might mention to Mr. Wei that I've been there a number of times since 1980—they will tell you that democratization is starting at the municipal level, and ultimately, as that develops, election of municipal officials, there will be provincial elections, and then there will be state elections, but it's a matter of phasing it in over a long time. How would he answer that explanation?

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Interpretation): This is only an excuse. To democratize the country, especially to have elections in China, many things are lacking. The first thing lacking is that people do not have freedom of expression, so they do not have the freedom to criticize and discuss things. That's the reason why they do not have the freedom to choose.

On the other hand, if the general public makes its own choice, the Chinese Communist Party can disregard and disrespect that choice. They can announce again and again that the results of an election are not definitive, until they get the candidate they want. Since 1951 that type of incident has happened many times.

So the general public knows what the election is all about. They think it is a fake election and they do not want to put much attention and energy into it. That's the real reason why there is no real election in China.

Actually, if there were a real environment for an election, people in China understand how to participate. In the 1960s I went to the countryside to work. At that time I saw that when the Chinese Communist Party did not interfere with the grassroots people in the villages they took the election very seriously, although they are illiterate.

• 1545

When they debated about the pros and cons of certain candidates they were even more serious than what I've observed in your Parliament in your parliamentary debates.

They also understand that their candidates have to be approved by the grassroots governmental organizations of the Chinese Communist Party, so that becomes the main problem they discuss. For example, if they think there is one person who has very good quality to lead the village but is not a candidate tolerated by the Communist Party, they still have to change to another candidate. So if we do not change the situation in which the Chinese Communist Party is an omnipresent oppressing power, there are never going to be real elections in China.

Some western countries such as Canada, the United States, and European countries spend money on some technical assistance programs towards grassroots elections in China, and that does not give any help to the democratic movement in China. The only impact of that type of activity would be to cheat the western media and then to lessen the international pressure on the Chinese government.

The Chairman: Thank you.

[Translation]

Ms. Debien.

Ms. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Good afternoon, Mr. Wei Jingsheng. I would like to extend a most cordial welcome to you and I would like to welcome you on behalf of my party, the Bloc Québécois as well. In other words, I am a member of the opposition.

You have made some very harsh comments about Canada's foreign policy. I would like to tell you that the Bloc Québécois has often asked the Canadian government this type of questions.

My question is about one of the comments you made. You said that the Canadian government's support for the Chinese democratic movement was quite weak, that Canada's position was not fair in this regard, and that as a result, Canadian aid went to Chinese government projects and the funds were used to despoil the Chinese people. I would like you to comment on that statement, which I find particularly harsh.

You said that in the context of Canada's foreign policy, the steps taken by the Canadian government were directed mainly toward the Chinese government and very little toward the people of China.

• 1550

I would like to know what concrete steps you would suggest to the Canadian government in order to help the people of China.

Third, I would like to know whether you realize that some products exported to Canada are manufactured in China under quite appalling working conditions.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Interpretation): First of all, in China many products are manufactured in reform camps. But there are also many products manufactured by children and also products manufactured in companies where working conditions are very poor. For example, there are village companies in which working conditions are very bad.

In this regard, Mr. Harry Wu set up a foundation knows as the Chinese Correction System Foundation, which has done a number of studies in this field. I could ask the foundation to send you some documentation on this.

To answer your second question, I think that in the area of foreign affairs, the Canadian government, particularly as regards international aid, prefers to deal directly with the Chinese government in order to get more trade quotas.

• 1555

If the Canadian government were to pay less attention to international trade a little more to the situation of the Chinese people, it could do a great deal more.

For example, at the moment, out of fear of irritating the Chinese government, the Canadian government does not dare provide public or direct assistance to the democratic movement in China. In addition, it does not dare contact directly the activists working in this area. If the Canadian government were to pay more attention to the Chinese people, there could be a great deal more co- operation with democratic organizations, particularly in the area of human rights.

I would also like to say that the Canadian government, probably in an effort to protect Canadian interests, has greatly reduced the pressure on the Chinese communist party. This in fact helps the Chinese communist party with what it does and with its intimidation campaigns. If the Canadian government could change this attitude, this would be of great help to the people of China.

For example, rather than spending money on fake projects like elections in villages or training of judges in China, it would be better to use the money to help the democratic movements in China and to invest more in Chinese radio in Canada. This would be much more beneficial for the Chinese people.

In addition, I think that if the Canadian government would criticize the Chinese government's actions at international conventions or at major international human rights conferences in Geneva, this would increase the pressure on the Chinese government. If the Canadian government were to criticize what the Chinese government is doing, the latter might take its actions a little more seriously.

• 1600

The Canadian government has shown a great deal of enthusiasm about the idea of organizing a symposium on human rights, but it must be understood that this symposium will enable the Communist Party of China to directly deceive the people of Canada.

I therefore think the Canadian government must answer one basic question, namely what attitude should be adopted regarding China: is it in favour of the Chinese Communist Party, or does it want to help the people of China?

If the Canadian government is really determined to help the people of China, I am prepared to take the time and come back to assist it in finding ways of achieving this objective.

[English]

The Chairman: Mr. Wei might be interested to note that Mr. Harry Wu appeared before the subcommittee of this committee before Christmas.

Last year we also had the pleasure, before the election, of receiving Mr. Wei's sister, who came to us to ask for help in intervening in securing his release from prison.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Interpretation): I thank you very much for your assistance. I'm sure the Canadian people are very interested in helping Chinese people to achieve human rights and democracy. What I said just now is that some concrete activities conducted by the Canadian government created a very confusing impression and that lost face for all of you.

So all of us should endeavour to convince the Canadian government to change the current policy and especially to change those activities that have had very little results and some misleading effects. At least we should achieve one thing—that is, we should avoid using the Canadian taxpayer's money to help an oppressive regime.

The Chairman: Ms. Beaumier.

Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.): Thank you.

I think a lot of what you've said is quite controversial, because since 1951 the democratic western societies have had a trade embargo against China, and all we saw was that China became more aggressive and took on more territory. The embargo didn't work.

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I am always quite reluctant to defend the government's position, because I don't usually agree with it, and I don't, in whole, agree with it now. But I think one of the attitudes we have is that with trade you have the opportunity to communicate. And we would have to assume that every political leader in the Government of China believes in oppression, and I think it would be an insult not just to the government but to all Chinese people to say that everyone believes the same thing.

So in some ways can you not feel that an open dialogue between parliamentarians can be beneficial? I'm not sure how you think the Canadian government can help the the freedom movement—which is underground—and not infringe upon the sovereign rights of another nation.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Interpretation): First of all, you have said that the embargo of China did not have great results. Although it did not work completely, it did have some impact. The Chinese economy, because of that embargo, reached a very difficult situation, but at that time the U.S.S.R., because of its ideological beliefs and system, was able to help China. The Chinese government could barely manage. The embargo did have that impact.

And the China of those days is quite different from the China of these days. At that time the Chinese government was still supported by the mass of the Chinese population. Also, the lies of the Chinese government were quite effective at that time, so relying only upon the punishment by foreign governments could not work, just like Iran.

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Also, the foreign governments had long-term views about China at that time, so if they could insist and continue, the results would come out. Additionally, the Chinese government is no longer supported by the general public these days, so if you continue the embargo the results will come out.

By insisting upon a correct policy, the results will come out, but if you withdraw such a policy at the time just before major changes could occur, you are losing and abandoning a very important opportunity. It's just like in a soccer game, when you almost reach the goal and you suddenly stop. It is then a very regrettable action to take. And just to give you another example, if you did not have the patience to continue the policy towards the Soviet Union in the 1988-89 period, what would the world be like these days?

For some policies, it takes a long time to see the effects. You need patience and perseverance in these cases, but if you only focus on the present benefits and interests, you might not achieve the longer-term goal. And there is a saying in China: If somebody only focuses on benefits before his eyes, then he always has troubles before his eyes.

The Chairman: Ms. Beaumier.

Ms. Colleen Beaumier: It's just a comment.

There are many who would like to take the credit for the fall of communism in Russia, but there are also many who believe that opening up the capitalistic system—that is, good old capitalistic greed—actually led to the demise of the government in Russia. Many would argue that bringing capitalism to China will have the same effect. I don't know. That's just an argument.

• 1616

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Interpretation): I think this type of theory is a very misleading theory: it twists the truth.

The real reason behind the demise of the system of the U.S.S.R., and also that of other oppressive regimes in other countries, was the will of everybody to have a reliable and oppression-free society. This is to say that, from human nature, they wanted to have a democratic system that was more suitable to the nature of people. They struggled many years toward that goal, and finally, they reached it.

As a nation that has already acquired this type of system, you should do more to help others, especially human beings who are struggling and sacrificing for such goals.

The Chairman: Mr. To, you wanted to add something. Perhaps before you do I might draw to the attention of the members of the committee that we have something fewer than 15 minutes left. We have 12 minutes or so. I three members still on my list. Given the translation time, we'll have to keep our interventions much shorter, because we do have to quit at 4.30 precisely.

Mr. Michael To: As the president of the federation, perhaps I can throw some light on some of the questions Madame Beaumier brought and then simplify the position we take.

For instance, in many of the discussions we had with the external affairs department, we came to a consensus that trade definitely increased dialogue, but trade should not be alone. If trade alone did the job, we would not have the example of Indonesia. We traded with Indonesia for more than 40 years, but that country didn't change. Therefore, the consensus is that it should be trade plus pressure.

On the subject of sanctions, it's not that we want to ask for sanctions, but we also would like to point out the fact that the western world has a very special case in South Africa. So we cannot totally ignore the value of sanctions.

Now we, as Chinese Canadians, also do not want to think that our race is one in which all the top leaders think alike. It's not a matter of individual choices in thinking, but this bunch sitting on top in Beijing basically have lost their legitimacy in ruling the country. They're only holding onto power by force. Therefore, they closed ranks. We don't believe they have the same individuality, that they think alike, but then they closed ranks. They're holding their powers through severe measures.

You talk about parliamentarians talking to parliamentarians. On your side are truly elected parliamentarians. Unfortunately, on their side, they're unelected, so they're bogus parliamentarians. So talking to them is talking to a whole bunch of people who want to hold on to power illegally. So when you talk to them, you only help to shore up their position.

As for the issue with eastern Europe and the Soviet Union falling apart, the capitalism, the degree to—

The Chairman: Mr. To, as I say, we're now down to ten minutes. If we get into the collapse of the Soviet Union, we could be here for a long time, to the end of history, as was cited in a famous article.

I have three members who want to ask a question. I won't interrupt, but I appreciate that. So members, just bear in mind the ten minutes and that we have three of you. Mr. Martin, can you be brief?

Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Jingsheng, for coming here. You bring honour on us by being here and also through the courage you demonstrated during your time in incarceration. We thank you for showing that to us, as well as our inadequacies.

As well, your beautiful writings, through your book, The Courage to Stand Alone, are a model for any of us to look at.

• 1620

We struggle in our country with how to deal with your country, as you have seen here. We want things to change. How can we, a country of 30 million, change that?

We're looking for specifics from your point of view. In particular, when you speak about trade, is it trade with restrictions, aid only going to the democratic leaders, the underground? Do we sever diplomatic ties when actions are taken against people whose human rights are abused? Sanctions in South Africa did work, but perhaps it was very much a different situation.

So I'd very much like your opinion on specific things we can do as Canadians, as parliamentarians, to help change that power structure. We would appreciate knowing not only now but also in the future. If you sent that to Mr. Graham or any of us, we would very much appreciate seeing it.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Interpretation): If we talked about specific items and approaches, we would have to spend a long time here, but to put it very simply, there are many things we can do together. First of all, you can directly assist the democratic movements by helping those democratic organizations in their resistance and struggles against the Chinese government so that we can give them more strength in their struggles.

Second, on occasions of international affairs and international trade, as a government, you can put more pressure on the Chinese Communist Party. That's a way to further impact the Chinese Communist Party. If you present a list only for the sake of media attention, and then do not have any follow-up activities after the list, it will not achieve any realistic results.

I've heard there is a foundation in the United States called the National Democratic Foundation. I heard there is also such a foundation in Canada. If such a foundation can give more money to the Chinese democratic movement, that would be very real help, in fact the most help.

The Chairman: Thank you.

We have five minutes left. Mr. Reed and Ms. Augustine, be brief.

• 1625

Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.): I will forgo. Mr. Martin and Ms. Beaumier both asked the questions I was going to ask. I would not let the moment go by, though, without remarking, Mr. Wei, about your amazing interpreter, who has conveyed the ideas in both French and English to you. You have been so able to bring the answers back to us.

Ms. Marianne Situ (Interpreter, Public Works and Government Services Canada): Just to clarify, I am your interpreter from Public Works and Government Services. Thank you.

Mr. Julian Reed: You are amazing.

The Chairman: This is a hidden asset we didn't know about. We are all very pleased. Mr. Wei, it took your visit for us to learn this, you see.

Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): I had the experience of working with the interpreter in China when we went to the women's conference, and she's just incredible. She speaks English, French, and Chinese in different dialects. She's just an amazing person.

The Chairman: Does she speak Granadian?

Ms. Jean Augustine: She's also good at shopping.

Ms. Marianne Situ: I am not the subject here.

Ms. Jean Augustine: She works at Foreign Affairs.

It's a pleasure to see you here and to see you looking well. I welcome you with the rest of my colleagues. You did start a movement, the Democracy Wall movement. Where are the individuals who started that movement with you? If you could talk just briefly about the fifth modernization in China, which seemed to be the theme of your critique, I'd appreciate that.

Mr. Wei Jinsheng (Interpretation): Because of the very cruel oppression of the Chinese Communist Party and the strategies used by the Chinese party to divide the people who started the Democratic Wall movement, a lot of people are no longer working with us, but there are still some people remaining who continue to struggle for the democratic movement.

About the fifth modernization, the Chinese Communist Party often uses some very attractive goals to cheat and mislead the Chinese population, and the four modernizations slogan was one of them.

I believe for the Chinese people, in a real modernized society the key thing is to have a democratic system, so that's why I entitled one of my articles “The Fifth Modernization”. This was also to make some fun of the very misleading slogan put forward by the Chinese government called Four Modernizations.

• 1630

After many years of struggle, most people in China now accept such a concept. Also, after many repetitions, after 19 years, one sentence that I said 19 years ago was used by the president, Jiang Zemin, saying that without democracy China will not become a modern society. For those 19 years, a lot of criticisms of my view would occur. No matter what type of appearance such criticisms may take, if we analyse them carefully they are all in one way or another from the Chinese Communist Party, from the oppressive party.

The Chairman: Mr. Wei, on behalf of the members of the committee, I would like to thank you and Mr. To for coming before us today. There are, as you know, many Canadian citizens of Chinese origin who I'm sure will have followed your appearance here with great interest, and many of us who wish to build stronger links with China but in building those stronger links ensure democratic institutions in what we are confident will be a modern and democratic China. We thank you for coming and sharing your thoughts with us today.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng (Interpretation): I also thank you for this opportunity you have given me to speak out. I think for the democracy and freedom of the Chinese people, we will enjoy a longstanding, cooperative relationship.

The Chairman: Thank you.

I just remind the members of the committee that next week we have Mr. Enrique Inglesias, the president of the Inter-American Development Bank, on Monday. Tuesday we have a delegation from Lithuania and Algeria. Mr. Claude Laverdure will be coming as well. Thursday we will return to our nuclear disarmament round tables.

We are adjourned until 3.30 p.m. on Monday, February 16.