MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1995
(Meeting No. 67)
(Meeting No. 67)
[Text]
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:40 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 253-D, Centre Block, for the purpose of electing a Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 106(1).
Members of the Committee present: Jim Abbott, Mark Assad, Richard Bélisle, Rex Crawford, Ivan Grose, René Laurin, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
Acting Members present: Don Boudria for John Cannis; Gilles Duceppe for Gilbert Fillion; Marlene Catterall for Leonard Hopkins.
Other Members present: John Duncan, Jim Gouk, Janko Peric, Chuck Strahl and Bob Ringma.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
The Clerk of the Committee presided over the election of a Chair.
Jim Abbott moved,--That John Williams do take the Chair of this Committee as Chairman.
Andrew Telegdi proposed to move,--That Richard Bélisle do take the Chair of the Committee as Chairman.
And debate arising on the motion of Jim Abbott.
At 3:58 o'clock p.m., the members dispersed.
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1995
(Meeting No. 68)
(Meeting No. 68)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:30 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 269, West Block, for the purpose of electing a Chair, pursuant to Standing Order 106(1).
Members of the Committee present: Jim Abbott, Mark Assad, Richard Bélisle, Rex Crawford, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, René Laurin, Andrew Telegdi and Susan Whelan.
Acting Members present: Don Boudria for John Cannis; Gilles Duceppe for Gilbert Fillion; Bob Ringma for John Williams.
Other Members present: Deborah Grey, Mike Scott, Ray Speaker and Chuck Strahl.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
The Clerk of the Committee presided over the election of a Chair.
Andrew Telegdi moved,--That Richard Bélisle do take the Chair of the Committee as Chairman.
And debate arising thereon.
By unanimous consent, the Committee proceeded to the consideration of the motion moved by Jim Abbott on Wednesday, September 27, 1995 which had lapsed and which read as follows: That John Williams do take the Chair of the Committee as Chairman.
After debate, the question being put on the motion of Jim Abbott, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
Jim Abbott
Bob Ringma--(2)
NAYS
Mark Assad
Gilles Duceppe
René Laurin
Richard Bélisle
Ivan Grose
Andrew Telegdi
Don Boudria
Leonard Hopkins
Susan Whelan--(10)
Rex Crawford
The Committee resumed consideration of the motion of Andrew Telegdi,--That Richard Bélisle do take the Chair of the Committee as Chairman.
And the questions being put on the motion it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: Yeas: 10; Nays: 0.
Richard Bélisle took the Chair.
On motion of Ivan Grose, it was agreed,--That Andrew Telegdi be elected Vice-Chair of the Committee.
On motion of Andrew Telegdi, it was agreed,--That Mark Assad be elected Vice-Chair of the Committee.
It was agreed,--That the Committee hold the following meetings next week:
--Tuesday, October 3, at 3:30 o'clock p.m., on Chapter 5 of the May 1995 Auditor General's Report relating to the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions;
--Wednesday, October 4, at 5:30 o'clock p.m., on a Draft Report on Science and Technology (Chapters 9, 10 and 11 of the 1994 Report of the Auditor General); and
--Thursday, October 5, at 11:00 o'clock a.m. during the preview relating to the Second 1995 Periodic Report of the Auditor General to be tabled in the House that day.
At 4:20 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1995
(Meeting No. 69)
(Meeting No. 69)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:34 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Vice-Chair, Andrew Telegdi, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Rex Crawford, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, René Laurin, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Ron Thompson, Assistant Auditor General. From the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions: John Palmer, Superintendent; Jack Heyes, Director General.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 5 of the May 1995 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions--Deposit-Taking Institutions Sector).
L. Denis Desautels and John Palmer made opening statements and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 5:02 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 4, 1995
(Meeting No. 70)
(Meeting No. 70)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 5:53 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Richard Bélisle, Rex Crawford, Gilbert Fillion, Ivan Grose, René Laurin, Andrew Telegdi and John Williams.
Acting Members present: Bill Graham for Mark Assad; Gar Knutson for Leonard Hopkins.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee resumed consideration of Chapters 9, 10 and 11 (Science and Technology) of the 1994 Report of the Auditor General.
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of a Draft Report to the House respecting Chapters 9, 10 and 11.
The Committee considered the Draft Report and revisions thereto.
At 6:14 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 5, 1995
(Meeting No. 71)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
(Meeting No. 71)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in camera at 11:06 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 237-C, Centre Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Mark Assad, Richard Bélisle, Rex Crawford, Gilbert Fillion, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, René Laurin, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
Other Members present: Harold Culbert and Ovid Jackson.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Raymond Dubois, Deputy Auditor General; Dave Roth, Assistant Auditor General.
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of the October 1995 Report of the Auditor General of Canada to be tabled in the House of Commons later this day.
The witnesses made opening statements and answered questions.
The Chair presented a Report from the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure which read as follows:
The Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts met on Wednesday, October 4, 1995 and agreed to report the following:
That the Committee schedule meetings on the following matters:
--the October 1995 Report of the Auditor General;
--Chapter 6 of the May 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Atlantic Freight Subsidies) with the Chairman of the National Transportation Agency;
--Moving contracts with representatives of the Department of National Defence and the Bureau of Competition; and
--Draft Report on Chapter 5 of the May 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions).
It was agreed,--That the Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure be amended by adding after the words ``Bureau of Competition'' the following: ``and representatives of the moving companies and families of Defence personnel''.
The Report of the Sub-Committee, as amended, was concurred in, on division.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of a Draft Report on Chapters 9, 10 and 11 of the 1994 Report of the Auditor General (Science and Technology).
The Committee considered the Draft Report and revisions thereto.
At 12:55 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 1995
(Meeting No. 72)
(Meeting No. 72)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:36 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 269, West Block, the Vice-Chair, Andrew Telegdi, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Mark Assad, Rex Crawford, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, René Laurin, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; William Radburn, Assistant Auditor General.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of the October 1995 Report of the Auditor General referred to the Committee on October 5, 1995.
L. Denis Desautels made an opening statement and, with the other witness, answered questions.
At 4:46 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1995
(Meeting No. 73)
(Meeting No. 73)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:35 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Jim Abbott, Mark Assad, Richard Bélisle, Gilbert Fillion, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, Pat O'Brien, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
Acting Members present: Janko Peric for Rex Crawford; Murray Calder for Susan Whelan.
Other Members present: John Bryden and John Richardson.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail and Brian O'Neal, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Department of National Defence: Lieutenant General R.N. Fischer, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel); Colonel J. Stewart, Chairman, Interdepartmental Committee on Household Goods Removal Services (IDC); Lieutenant Colonel W. Legue, Member of IDC. From the Bureau of Competition Policy: George Addy, Director, Investigations and Research.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of matters relating to Household Goods Removal Services (Public Accounts of Canada, 1994).
Lieutenant General R.N. Fischer and George Addy made opening statements and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 5:07 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 1995
(Meeting No. 74)
(Meeting No. 74)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:37 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Richard Bélisle, Gilbert Fillion, Pat O'Brien, Andrew Telegdi and John Williams.
Acting Members present: Denis Paradis for Rex Crawford; Alex Shepherd for Susan Whelan.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the National Transportation Agency: Gilles Rivard, Chairman; Ron Ashley, Counsel; Doug Rimmer, Director General, Marine, Trucking and Regional Offices. From the Office of the Auditor General: Hugh McRoberts, Principal, Audit Operations.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee resumed consideration of Chapter 6 of the May 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Federal Transportation Subsidies--The Atlantic Region Freight Assistance Program). (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Tuesday, June 6, 1995, Issue No. 36).
Gilles Rivard made an opening statement and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 5:09 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 1995
(Meeting No. 75)
(Meeting No. 75)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 5:41 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 112-N, Centre Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Richard Bélisle, René Laurin, Pat O'Brien and Susan Whelan.
Acting Members present: Paul Steckle for Rex Crawford; Stan Dromisky for Ivan Grose; John English for Andrew Telegdi.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee resumed consideration of a Draft Report respecting Chapters 9, 10 and 11 of the 1994 Report of the Auditor General (Science and Technology). (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, October 5, 1995, Issue No. 36).
Susan Whelan moved,--That the Committee sit in camera for the consideration of the Draft Reports.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: Yeas: 4; Nays: 1.
At 5:45 o'clock p.m., the Committee proceeded to sit in camera to resume its consideration of the Draft Report on Science and Technology.
It was agreed,--That the Draft Report, as amended, be concurred in.
It was agreed,--That the Chair be authorized to make such grammatical and editorial changes to the Report as may be necessary without changing the substance of the Report.
It was ordered,--That the Report, as amended, be presented by the Chair of the Committee to the House of Commons.
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of a Draft Report respecting Chapter 5 of the May 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions--Deposit-Taking Institutions Sector). (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Tuesday, October 3, 1995, Issue No. 36).
The Committee considered the Draft Report.
It was agreed,--That the Draft Report, as amended, be concurred in.
It was agreed,--That the Chair be authorized to make such grammatical and editorial changes to the Report as may be necessary without changing the substance of the Report.
It was ordered,--That the Report, as amended, be presented by the Chair of the Committee to the House of Commons.
At 6:04 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 1995
(Meeting No. 76)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
(Meeting No. 76)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in camera at 10:34 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 237-C, Centre Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Jim Abbott, Richard Bélisle, Gilbert Fillion, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
Associate Member present: Alex Shepherd.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Raymond Dubois, Deputy Auditor General; Michael McLaughlin, Assistant Auditor General; Richard B. Fadden, Assistant Auditor General.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee met to discuss reports of the Auditor General.
The witnesses briefed the Committee and answered questions in relation to the November 1995 Report of the Auditor General to be tabled in the House of Commons later today.
At 12:01 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 1995
(Meeting No. 77)
(Meeting No. 77)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:37 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 269, West Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Mark Assad, Richard Bélisle, Gilbert Fillion, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Raymond Dubois, Deputy Auditor General; Michael McLaughlin, Assistant Auditor General; Nancy Cheng, Principal, Audit Operations.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of the November 1995 Report of the Auditor General referred to the Committee on Tuesday, November 21, 1995.
L. Denis Desautels made an opening statement and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 5:04 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1995
(Meeting No. 78)
(Meeting No. 78)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:36 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 701, La Promenade, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Mark Assad, Richard Bélisle, Leonard Hopkins, René Laurin, Pat O'Brien, Jim Silye, Andrew Telegdi and John Williams.
Acting Member present: John Loney for Rex Crawford.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; David Roth, Assistant Auditor General. From the Secretariat of the Treasury Board: W.E.R. Little, Deputy Secretary and Deputy Comptroller General.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 12 of the October 1995 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Systems under Development: Managing the Risks).
The witnesses made opening statements and answered questions.
The Chair presented a Report from the Sub-committee on Agenda and Procedure which read as follows:
The Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts met on Wednesday, November 22, 1995 and agreed to report the following:
1.That the Committee schedule meetings on the following matters:
(1) Chapter 12 of the October 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Systems in Development) on Tuesday, November 28, 1995;
(2) Household Goods Removal Services with representatives of the following moving companies: Walkers Capital Group Moving and Storage of Kingston; Corporate Moving of Waterloo; a Van Lines representative to be confirmed by John Williams; and
(3) Draft Report on Chapter 6 of the May 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Atlantic Freight Subsidies).
2.That the Committee hold a meeting with the Governor of the Bank of Canada and a meeting with the Minister of Finance, before the Christmas recess, in relation to Chapter 9 of the October 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Information for Parliament - Deficits and Debt: Understanding the Choices).
It was agreed,--That recommendation No. 1 be agreed to.
The Committee discussed recommendation No. 2.
At 5:16 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 1995
(Meeting No. 79)
(Meeting No. 79)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 5:35 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 269, West Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Richard Bélisle, Rex Crawford, Gilbert Fillion, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, Pat O'Brien, Andrew Telegdi and John Williams.
Acting Members present: Lyle Vanclief for Mark Assad; Charles Hubbard for Susan Whelan.
Other Members present: Geoff Regan, Harry Verran and Elsie Wayne.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From Corporate Moving Services, Waterloo, Ontario: Pat Baird. From Walker's Capital Group of Moving & Storage Companies, Kingston, Ontario: Glenn Warner. From United Van Lines (Canada) Ltd.: Chuck Martin, Executive Vice-President. From the Hoyt's Group of Companies: R.C. Hoyt, Vice-President, Sales.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee resumed debate of Recommendation No. 2 of the Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure presented Tuesday, November 28, 1995 which read as follows:
2.That the Committee hold a meeting with the Governor of the Bank of Canada and a meeting with the Minister of Finance, before the Christmas recess, in relation to Chapter 9 of the October 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Information for Parliament - Deficits and Debt: Understanding the Choices).
John Williams moved,--That Recommendation No. 2 be agreed to.
And the question being put on the motion, it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: Yeas: 4; Nays: 0.
The Committee resumed consideration of matters relating to Household Goods Removal Services (Public Accounts of Canada 1994). (See Minutes of Proceedings, dated Tuesday, October 31, 1995, Issue No. 36).
The witnesses made opening statements and answered questions.
At 8:04 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1995
(Meeting No. 80)
(Meeting No. 80)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:40 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Mark Assad, Richard Bélisle, Rex Crawford, Gilbert Fillion, Ivan Grose, Leonard Hopkins, Jim Silye, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee resumed consideration of Chapter 6 of the May 1995 Report of the Auditor General (Federal Transportation Subsidies--The Atlantic Region Freight Assistance Program). (See Minutes of Proceedings, dated November 7, 1995, Issue No. 36).
It was agreed,--That the Committee proceed to sit in camera to consider a Draft Report respecting Chapter 6 of the May 1995 Report of the Auditor General.
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of the Draft Report and revisions thereto.
It was agreed,--That the Draft Report, as amended, be concurred in.
It was agreed,--That the Chair be authorized to make such grammatical and editorial changes to the Report as may be necessary without changing the substance of the Report and that the revisions to the Report be subject to verification by the following Members: Mark Assad, Andrew Telegdi and John Williams.
It was ordered,--That the Report, as amended, be presented by the Chair of the Committee to the House of Commons.
At 4:05 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 1995
(Meeting No. 81)
(Meeting No. 81)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:34 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 371, West Block, the Chair, Richard Bélisle, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Mark Assad, Richard Bélisle, Rex Crawford, Gilbert Fillion, Ivan Grose, René Laurin, Pat O'Brien, Jim Silye, Andrew Telegdi, Susan Whelan and John Williams.
Associate Member present: Alex Shepherd.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Bank of Canada: Gordon G. Thiessen, Governor; Tim E. Noël, Deputy Governor.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 9 of the October 1995 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Information for Parliament--Deficits and Debt: Understanding the Choices).
Gordon G. Thiessen made an opening statement and, with the other witness, answered questions.
At 5:11 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
Bernard G. Fournier
Clerk of the Committee