//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla (Minister of Canadian Heritage): (0905)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.Welcome everyone. It is a beautiful day. With me today are Mr. Hubert Lussier, whom you know, and Mr. Michel Francoeur, who discussed with you all the ins and outs of Bill S-3. It is my pleasure to speak to Bill S-3, an Act to amend the Official Languages Act. The object of this bill is also to promote French and English. It was originally presented in the Senate by the Honourable Jean-Robert Gauthier. First of all, I would like to commend Mr. Gauthier for his tenacity and commitment to Canada's official language policies. S-3 is the fourth bill proposed by the former senator on this subject. Bill S-3 targets changing the Official Languages Act in order to impose a legal obligation on federal institutions to guarantee the implementation of the federal commitment described in Part VII of the Act. The government shares the objective of increased accountability that Bill S-3 advocates and I would like, at this time, to remind you of the unequivocal commitment of the Government of Canada to promote our linguistic duality. First, as noted in the most recent Speeches from the Throne, the government is entirely committed to reaffirming linguistic duality as a fundamental Canadian value and to promoting the vitality of official-language minority communities.Secondly, I would like to remind you that Cabinet now includes a minister responsible for official languages, tasked with horizontal coordination of the implementation of the official languages policy. Thirdly, the Government of Canada is working towards full implementation of the Action Plan for Official Languages, at the heart of which are found the policies attached to governing Canada's official languages. I think that it is important therefore that I now define certain dimensions of the plan in that respect.(0910)[English] The action plan is the new road map for Canada's linguistic duality. It contains an accountability and coordination framework as well as an investment strategy, including three axes: education, official language minority community development, and measures to make the public service exemplary. The accountability and coordination framework, which is the linchpin of the action plan, targets all of the act. It reiterates the obligation of each federal institution with respect to parts I to V of the Official Languages Act and specifies the conditions for implementation of part VII, which we are talking about here today.Its aim is vast and its range is far-reaching. It ensures the official languages dimension is included in the conception and implementation of public policies and government programs. In this way, the new accountability and coordination framework specifies that in order to implement the federal commitment contained in part VII, federal institutions must sensitize their employees of the government's commitment and the concerns of the official language minority, identifying policies and programs that have consequences with respect to the status of our two official languages and the vitality of their official language minority communities, consulting them, and taking their needs into consideration. The accountability and coordination framework also includes a whole series of clauses that reinforce horizontal coordination.[Translation]In short, the action plan and its accountability and coordination framework are geared towards better collaboration and better results and in this way demonstrate how much the commitment and actions of the government meet those included in Bill S-3: making federal institutions increase accountability and in doing so, increase support for Canada's linguistic duality.I must, however, tell you about the reservations I have with respect to the current wording contained in the bill. It appears to me that its impact could prove harmful.Remember that Bill S-3 replaces a non-justiciable policy commitment, which is in great part a commitment based on spending power, with an obligation to take decisions and attain results. S-3 creates this obligation with respect to a very broad objective which is difficult to evaluate - contrary to Parts I, II, IV and V of the Act which target precise situations such as language of laws and regulations, parliamentary debates, services to the public and language of work.In addition, the obligation to obtain results becomes justiciable, which means that it could be the subject of a court case.Put this way, the adoption of the bill could cause major repercussions.[English] First, it could considerably affect the relations between the federal government and the provinces and territories. Currently, many priority areas related to official language minority communities are provincial and territorial jurisdiction, and the government could find it extremely difficult to attain required results without the collaboration of other levels of government. I would like to remind you that the bill demands, among other things, that the Minister of Canadian Heritage “shall take appropriate measures to advance the equality of status and use of English and French in Canadian society”. Under these circumstances, trying to achieve desired results with part VII of the act could cause major pressure on federal-provincial-territorial relations. Next, Bill S-3 could also have the effect of considerably reducing the government's margin to manoeuvre within its capacity to develop policies and programs and when exercising its spending power. Ministers' decisions could be subjected to revision by the courts, and the courts could rule for amendment or cancellation of government initiatives.(0915)[Translation]I think that the bill should be improved in such a way that, while still maintaining its first objective of increasing the accountability of federal institutions within the implementation of Part VII of the Act, it respects the capacity which the federal government must maintain in its discussions with the provinces and territories, in its choice of policies and programs to be developed, as well as in exercising its spending power. It is important to preserve the partnership that we have with the provinces and territories in the many areas where we work together.It seems to me that the best way to proceed towards this end would be to require federal institutions to implement means to fulfill the government's commitment, as opposed to requiring them to attain results to do so. Let us be clear: we are all agreed that it is important to maintain good relations with the provinces and territories. But, at the same time, is it reasonable to ask the federal government to attain results when we know that it would be extremely difficult without the cooperation of the provinces and territories? I would also like to remind you that, in this regard, the federal commitment found in Part VII of the 1988 Official Languages Act which is declaratory and not justiciable, was written in that way because of serious concerns expressed by the provinces and territories with respect to federal government pressure in areas outside of its jurisdiction. I want to be sure that you understand what I mean. Putting obligations on measures taken instead of results to be attained does not aim to eliminate federal encroachment in provincial jurisdiction, because it goes without saying that a federal law could not sanction encroachment.The amendment that I propose aims to reduce the risk of political tension that could arise as a result of a federal institution wanting to obtain results—mandated by the Act—but which depend on other levels of government. [English] The proposed amendments my colleague submitted to you last week are therefore based on an approach that targets the means as opposed to the results, while at the same time reinforcing the federal government's commitment to the promotion of French and English in Canadian society. With these amendments, federal institutions would be required, when developing policies or programs, to determine whether the policy or program impacts on the implementation of the commitments, consult where appropriate any interested organizations, including organizations representing English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada, and take into consideration the impact of the promotion of French and English as well as results of consultations. The obligations of the Minister of Canadian Heritage would also be subject to similar measures.[Translation]I would like to repeat the fact that these steps, which would be justiciable, are far from being banal or negligible. The legal obligation to consider the impact of a policy or program on the promotion of English or French would be substantial and would allow federal institutions to respond more appropriately to the needs of the official-language minority communities and the interests of linguistic duality as a whole. It is along this track that the Commissioner of Official Languages made reference in her last annual report (2003-2004). She said, and I quote:Institutions subject to the Act must usually consider the needs of official language communities when drawing up policies and programs. This requirement would have a much larger impact if its binding nature were clearly established. Indeed, all institutions would have to take a much more searching look at the effect of their policies and programs to ensure that they support the development of the communities involved. The Commissioner concluded by recommending that the government “clarify the legal scope of Part VII through legislation or regulation by defining its compulsory nature as well as how federal institutions should implement it under the terms of section 41 of the Act.” It seems to me that the amendments put forward by my colleague are very much in line with this way of thinking. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for giving me the opportunity to present my point of view on Bill S-3. The government accords much importance to its commitment with respect to official languages and I hope that the committee can agree on the best way to improve it.Mr. Chairman, we are in your hands.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0920)[Translation]First, the implementation of the official languages policy as a whole is what is relevant to Part VII of the Act. This refers to agreements between the federal government and the provinces and territories. In this respect, one example would be the memorandum of understanding we signed with the Education ministers across Canada.In terms of improvements, we would like to make consultations accountable under Part III. The result, be it in the field of education, health services or any other field affected by the government's action plan on official languages, also depend on our relationship with the provinces. Health and education are provincial area of jurisdiction, and we would not want to see the results challenged before the court. Why? Because they are often the fruit of our negotiations with the provinces. It is important to ensure that adequate consultations are carried out with stakeholder organizations in the community as a whole before the process is completed. Moreover, we have to see to it that the negotiations with our partners are not strictly on a bilateral basis: in other words, the federal government must also have done its homework. If the results were justiciable, that would imply that anyone could argue that the federal and provincial governments are not investing enough into for instance bilingual health care services. The results would be challenged before the court. What would happen then? First, everything would probably be at a stand still for years and then, undue pressure would be brought to bear on the province, which also has a limited ability to pay. So, we suggest being accountable before the consultations which lead to the results rather than for the results themselves. GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[Translation]First of all, I would like to get back to what Ms. Adam was saying. It is true that over a two year period we carried out the implementation of the action plan, which was not an easy task. It required a new way of doing business. Ms. Adam could not say the same today, because we have a memorandum in the field of education. We are now working with Ontario, but the fact is that in the case of 12 provinces in territories, everything will be signed within the next few days. Moreover, we are working bilaterally with the provinces. In terms of services, things are going relatively well. When Ms. Adam stated the progress was slow and that there were no results, she was referring to the implementation of the action plan. For that to be acceptable, many consultations were also required. If we only focus on making results justiciable, the overall results will not be the only thing on the line. Amounts invested by both parties to meet needs will be as well. So, the federal government would not be the only one being challenged: our partners, in other words the provinces, would be as well. GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[Translation]The results are actually measured within the action plan's framework. There is the Official Languages Commissioner, this committee, and, of course, us. However, there is a big difference between measuring action plan results and making those results justiciable. Making those results justiciable means that the court can examine any program that any citizen feels did not get sufficient funds. I do not think the provinces would be very pleased.I'll give you an example. We have just settled the education issue with the provinces for a period of four years. The funds that are being invested were determined under an agreement. We will then sit down to deal with bilateral issues; I call this the tailor made part. That involves negotiations with each province. We have settled this issue with the provinces.Any citizen could say that they think the funds are not sufficient and that on those grounds they will take legal action. This is not a simple affair. First, there is the ability to pay on the part of both levels of government and there is also the issue of undue pressure being put on us and our provincial partners, given that we agreed on the amounts that we must and can invest in this together.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0930)[Translation]I'll start by making two points. There are several reasons for complying with jurisdictions.First, when you're dealing with official languages, you don't want to constantly be tying things up in court. Earlier on, we were talking about a standstill. The best way to bring everything to a standstill is to allow everyone in Canada to challenge results. That halts the process. Take the Montfort hospital. How long did it take to settle that dispute? Four years. That's one thing.How can one be very efficient without paralyzing the system and without creating undue financial pressure, not only at the federal level but also at the provincial level, because provinces will be affected as a consequence? That is why we felt we needed to proceed through consultation. It is true that the education exercise we undertook was very long. Ms. Adam even asked us when we were going to get results. It is true that it was a very long process, but we learned a lot.We did our consultations ourselves, and we asked the provinces to consult with their school boards, for example. School boards are very important. They will be meeting this weekend. It's important that they be a part of this process but the provinces have to consult them because this is a provincial jurisdiction. If we make these consultations obligatory and we provide a framework, then the result of the negotiations will be much more tailored to the needs of the communities than if we decide what those communities' needs are, here in Ottawa.Second, you mentioned compliance with jurisdictions. This has been an important factor. You know that I am quite concerned about that aspect. The Supreme Court, in its latest rulings, has consistently taken into account the various communities' unique characteristics, including those of Quebec, being fully aware that francophones are a majority in Quebec but a minority in the rest of America. It has always taken into account Bill 101. Under our Constitution, our statutes cannot encroach upon provincial legislation, and the Supreme Court, in its rulings, has made sure that it is taking into account the uniqueness of each community. In this case, we're talking about Quebec.Therefore, I am not concerned about this. I was concerned about something else however. The federal government can end up infringing through its spending authority. The federal government does not infringe on jurisdictions through its statutes but rather through its spending authority. If that spending authority is made justiciable and pressure is exerted on us, then this pressure will also inevitably be felt by our financial partners who are the provinces and the territories.When one is talking about the public service or about bilingualism in our statutes, one is not talking about part VII, but rather about parts I, II, III, IV and V, which makes it much easier to justify the bilingual requirement or lack of. Part VII is much less easier to quantify. That is why in 1988, the focus was rather goodwill and good understanding. In order to ensure that there is no undue pressure on our partners or on ourselves—because the issue is the ability to pay—in order to not paralyze the system, we will oblige ourselves to consult people. If those consultations are insufficient, then we will have recourse to the courts and we will be able to tell people that they have not done their homework.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]Yes.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]Absolutely.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]Yes, absolutely. If there are groups who think that they have not been adequately consulted, if they do not see themselves in the results, then they can take us to court. That is the goal. GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0940)[Translation]No, that cannot happen.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0940)[Translation]I will explain why and then I will give the floor to Michel who was very involved in the Montfort Hospital case.We are required to “determine whether the policy or program impacts on the implementation of the commitments”. We are required to do that, otherwise we may end up in court, and that applies to everything: to Crown corporations and to the whole of the government. We are also required to “consult any interested organizations, including organizations representing English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada” and to “take into consideration the conclusions drawn from the application of paragraph (a) as well as the results of consultations carried out within the application of paragraph (b).”In other words, we must comply with all of that and that applies to the whole government: Crown corporations and all organizations. I will now give the floor to Michel, because the Montfort Hospital's story is an interesting one. YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0940)[Translation]All right. We are required to take into consideration the conclusions drawn under paragraph (a) and the results of consultations undertaken under paragraph (b).” That means that we aren't just consulting. We are required to take the results of those consultations into account. However, do we want to end up in court over and over again over the years, for each decision made? Is that good for the promotion of linguistic duality in Canada? We have an interesting precedent and that is the Montfort Hospital.Michel.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstMichelFrancoeur//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0945)[Translation]I will let Michel answer because we are talking about legal niceties here. MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansMichelFrancoeur//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0950)[Translation]When you look at all the obligations, you can see they apply to several clauses, for example clauses 41, 42, 43, 44 and so on. If you read all of part VII, you can see that these obligations are, to my mind, real and verifiable. We shouldn't forget that we absolutely must have significant means to check up on how the communities are flourishing. We must also consult the stakeholder groups. We must consider the impact on the communities and on the results. If it's a justiciable obligation, everything must be documented because, at the end of the day, we could be brought to court. Those obligations are rather significant. MichelFrancoeurMarcGodboutOttawa—Orléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0950)[English]Yes, Bill S-3 puts pressure not only on the federal government. The spending in a lot of domains is usually a partnership federally and provincially. In its current status, that's what Bill S-3 does, as far as a result. We had a discussion with Senator Gauthier. He said this was not really what he wanted. He wanted to make sure that we're efficient, that there is consultation, and that the results of those consultations are taken into account. That's why we brought an amendment saying we are going to make it obligatory for the whole of government and crown corporations to consult and to take into account the consultations within our plans and negotiations. The result of this is that it then cannot be brought into court because the procedures are justiciable. AndrewScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerRegina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0955)[English]No, it's not only that. It's an obligation to verify the incidents within the communities to any policies, any decisions made, and any application of the plan. It's also the obligation to consult all interested groups and to take into account the incidents within the communities of these results. We have to document everything, and we have to make it official. If we're brought to court, we then have official documents to be able to discuss it in court. It's quite a constraint. This will put more financial obligations on the government and within the machinery because we're increasing the obligation of the government to do that. It's applicable to the federal government. It's our decision to put our money where our mouths are. This pertains to the federal government. It's on our shoulders. At the end, I'm sure the result will be much better than what we've seen before, because it's obligatory not only for the Minister of Heritage but also for our crown corporations and the entire federal government.AndrewScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerRegina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0955)[English]Well, that's it. If you're talking about the measures, then it's our responsibility. We put it upon ourselves and our crown corporations to consult. If it's justiciable for the result, then the result is based on a partnership between both. The result is similar to what I did with education. We sat down with the provinces and asked them what they would need in this case. We said we'll put in 40% and they'll put in 60%. We'll put 70% here and they'll put 30% there. If we base it only on the result, this would be justiciable. It means that if people think the financial means are not enough, in one case or another, they can always say they're going to court, but they can't sue only us because of the result. The result is the combined effort of the provinces and the federal government. They're suing every one of us. I think if we want to make this project a federal project to make us really act better towards this duality, then let's put the responsibility on our shoulders. This is a big responsibility. Again, it's going to cost, but it's a federal cost and it's not putting pressure on the provincial governments.AndrewScheerRegina—Qu'AppellePabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1000)[Translation]First of all, we certainly do not want to complicate matters. We are simply saying that we are taking the very essence of Bill S-3. Having had discussions, even with the senator, we are saying that the purpose of this bill is to give the Official Languages Act more teeth and to apply it to the entire federal government, without interfering in areas of provincial jurisdiction, because the provinces are our partners and we need them. Without them, we would not meet any of the objectives we have set. The Lord only knows if we negotiate with the communities, for example, in the case of the education agreements. Since Canadian Heritage does most of the negotiating, we know what we are talking about. The provinces have been our partners for more than 30 years, as I pointed out earlier. Our conclusion, after having worked on the Official Languages Act, is that the process must be made justiciable. The objectives are the same. However, to meet these objectives and respect provincial jurisdiction, because experience tells us that that is what must be done, we must make the process, in other words what applies to us, justiciable. In the end, with these obligations, we will be able to better serve our community. That is all we are saying. In my opinion, we are not complicating the act. On the contrary, we want to make the measures to be taken justiciable instead of the outcome. That is a major constraint. Bear in mind that everything we are currently doing, as we are seeing in our negotiations, is a major constraint, but I think it is necessary. We are prepared to rise to the challenge. FrançoiseBoivinGatineauPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]I worked at the National Assembly, as you said, I also worked with Mr. Ryan to restore peace where language was concerned. We established measures that are still in force and were complied with by the Parti Québécois government. We did the work we had to do. I assure you that, if I had the least doubt that this legislation threatened Bill 101 or the other protective measures that Quebec needs to have in place, I would not be here before you trying to convince you that it does not threaten Quebec's priorities.As for excluding Quebec from the implementation of part VII, I do not believe that Quebec would agree, to be honest. Why not? Because it would also mean excluding Quebec's anglophone minority from the discussion. I don't think that anyone, yourself included, would wish that to happen.That said, federal statutes—as I said earlier—include the obligation to take this into account. In our system, the majority of provincial legislation is always taken into account when it comes to respecting minority rights or protecting minorities in any area. This means that Bill 101, which applies to Quebec and protects French in that province, and also protects the French-language community in the Americas, will always be taken into account. Should it come to a challenge before the courts, Bill 101 will be taken into account by the Supreme Court, because the Supreme Court has always done so.So it would be redundant to specify that this legislation must not infringe upon areas of provincial jurisdiction. You can discuss the issue, but the requisite provision is already in place.That said, when we say “may take”, we mean there is an obligation to consult, and the first parties that should be consulted are the provinces. We cannot achieve anything if the provinces are not full partners in the enforcement agreements. If Quebec had not been a front-line partner at this stage, among other things in education agreements, we would not be here signing the protocol, particularly since Quebec's Minister of Education is president of the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada.We cannot do anything if the provinces are not our partners. That has to be taken into account, and that is something we all have to apply to ourselves. The process, not the result, must be justiciable, because if the result is justiciable, then we come back to spending power.StéphaneBergeronVerchères—Les PatriotesPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1010)[Translation]I understand, Yvon, and I will try to keep my answer as simple as possible.If the people were not consulted enough, if the impact has been prejudicial to communities, going to court is still a possibility. Then, the court will rule, and will, as it did with the Montfort Hospital case, overturn the decision.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1010)[Translation]Yvon, that is lack of consultation. There is a lack of consultation generally, but the impact on communities can be justiciable. Communities can take the government to court if the impact on them is prejudicial after they have been consulted and after everything they have said.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]Then, let's close our books. We do not need the Official Languages Act anymore.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]That's not the problem. At that point, we would no longer need the Official Languages Act. Regardless of whether it is the measures or the results that are justiciable, the problem begins as soon as we go to court. Do we agree on that?YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]The result is justiciable. Do we believe there will be no more challenges in court because the result is justiciable?YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]The federal [Inaudible], because the provinces can say that additional pressure is being put on them and they did not ask for it.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]We have no choice, because the result is obviously the culmination of federal-provincial negotiations. When we sat down with the provinces and presented a four-year memorandum of understanding on education, they accepted it. I will now undertake bilateral negotiations with the provinces. We will go to Manitoba and see what that province's needs are. Yesterday, I had a conversation with Mr. Selinger, the minister from Manitoba, and we looked at the overall needs. We will come to an agreement. I'm not building schools because that is not within my jurisdiction, but I will help him with the community centre, and with the Collège de Saint-Boniface—we will put those things in together. The result of the process may be justiciable.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[English]In the case of Alliance Quebec, that is not true. It's wrong, with all due respect.MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[English]That they embarrass.... It's really wrong. You have to understand, but I know it's out of order.MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]Mr. Chairman, people who live in Quebec know very well that such statements are unacceptable. [English]In the case of Alliance Quebec, it went from $900,000. If you live in Quebec, you know that 20 years ago Alliance Quebec was the porte-parole of the anglophone community. Today there is QCGM, which is a community network of 24 organizations, including Alliance Quebec. On Friday we increased their funding by 19%. Alliance Quebec is also eligible for the funding. But the one principle is good governance. No matter what you do, you have grants, contributions, rules, and regulations, and there's good governance. That is the case of Alliance Quebec.If Alliance Quebec, under Bill S-3--PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]No, they're not the only ones. When you live in Quebec you know that they're not the only ones doing advocacy. And there is one principle that you have to observe when you have grants and contributions, and that is the rules and regulations attached to the grants and contributions. We have the Auditor General we have to speak for. So this is a problem for Alliance Quebec. Living in Quebec, I have also dealt for years with Alliance Quebec. It's an organization that I do respect, but now there is a problem with governance and--MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]There's a problem with governance.MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]We have had 21 meetings. We already have a 22nd meeting planned. We working very closely with them. I have to tell you this. It is not true that the QCGN and the 23 or 24 organizations representing English in the English townships, in Gaspésie and all over, are funded because there is partisanship in funding this. You have to be in Quebec to know and to understand what I mean. I do not accept this, sir. MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]There is a governance issue.MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]Listen, there is a governance issue. We cannot erase a debt and we're not authorized to erase a debt. We have had meetings and we are going to continue to have meetings. The last one was Friday morning. We'll have a 22nd meeting. We're working with Alliance Quebec as we're working with other groups, and I'm very pleased to say that we're increasing the support for the English community-- MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]In fact, there is such a provision, but it depends on the government's goodwill. With our amendments, it becomes an obligation and no longer a matter of goodwill. It is a justiciable obligation and therefore it must be documented. Thus, the results of consultations must be taken into account. In other words, we cannot declare what the community needs are. You have to sit down and work with them. If you were still working for a CLSC, they would have to consult you, and they would also have a justiciable obligation to take your statements into account. It would not be a matter of goodwill. GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1030)[Translation]Exactly. We must take them into account. If the groups that were consulted found that we did not sufficiently take their consultations and recommendations into account in the context of our negotiations, we could actually be taken to court. RaymondSimardHon.Saint BonifaceRaymondSimardHon.Saint Boniface//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1030)[Translation]Michel.RaymondSimardHon.Saint BonifaceMichelFrancoeur//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[Translation]Yvon, as a friend, I'd like to respond to that.You say that the government does not want to invest money, but just look at the agreements...YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[Translation]I know, it's our money too.To say that the federal government does not want to invest your and our money seems like an exaggeration to me. First, you have to consider the increase to education and the $740 million invested in the action plan. We are working closely with the communities and making huge efforts on their behalf; it cannot be said that we are not investing. Bill S-3, as introduced and amended, is going to require significant financial resources from the federal government, whether you like it or not, and that is all well and good. Except that, ultimately, the required results...What bothers me the most with respect to Quebec is the last thing Michel mentioned. We have to be careful not to jeopardize our relations with our main partners, in spite of our good intentions. We depend on them to achieve the goal that we are all aiming for. We depend on the provinces wherever provincial jurisdiction comes into play and wherever they are our partners.If, as Michel explained, we don't sign an agreement and the province is obliged to... When the result is justiciable, we encroach on provincial jurisdiction with our spending power. That is why we are proposing to take on the whole obligation. But it is a heavy obligation! It's not insignificant! It is a matter of negotiation and sensitivity. The communities may say that we haven't been sufficiently sensitive to their recommendations and then take us to court. No one wants to go to court. We want to succeed. So we must make sure that we are sensitive to the recommendations. YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[Translation]I understand, Yvon, but the obligation to be sensitive to the recommendations knowing full well that we can be taken to court if we don't do our job properly is quite a straightjacket that forces us to do what it takes to make it work. Honestly, I don't think there's any government anywhere that enjoys going to court, is there? So we have to do what it takes to make it work, and we are setting the necessary parameters. It seems to me that that is a step in the right direction and is quite positive. It's for you to discuss, but I am confident that this legislation respects provincial jurisdiction. Moreover, we are the ones it imposes obligations on, not our partners. YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla (Minister of Canadian Heritage): (0905)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I am pleased to be here, more especially today. First, I want to announce to you that the education agreements were signed last night. I've previously said that the entire matter was completed on March 31, that the texts had been finalized and approved by Jean-Marc Fournier, the Quebec minister and Chair of the Council of Ministers of Education Canada, and by officials. As promised, it was done on March 31. Now we need only ratify the Protocol so that we can finally have a comprehensive framework. All the provinces and territories have signed it. Nunavut was the last to sign. I personally spoke to the representatives of the Northwest Territories. It's done. A news release will be issued this morning. This is a four-year agreement. It appears that the provinces and territories are very satisfied with it.Now I'll move on to my official text because it also concerns accountability mechanisms. That's why the Protocol is so important. It also concerns the accountability mechanism and mandatory consultations with the community.I'm particularly happy to be here today to speak to you about education and Canada's official languages in education agreements. I'm particularly happy to announce this first to the Standing Committee on Official Languages. You're the first to know. Accountability is one of the main principles that guides us in this area. That is why I thank you for this opportunity to share the progress made in education since we last met.(0910)[English]As you know, the lion's share of the Government of Canada's action plan for official languages funding is dedicated to education. Education is the key to community development and to the community's ability to deal with the challenges that face it and those associated with our knowledge-based society. Learning a second official language in school is also an important way in which we support linguistic duality in Canada.Education is a provincial-territorial jurisdiction, yet a remarkable partnership has existed in this regard between the two levels of government for the past 35 years.[Translation]At the multilateral level, the Minister of Canadian Heritage negotiates a Protocol of Agreement with the Council of Ministers of Education. That's what we've just completed.I have already announced that elements of the next Protocol will be settled by March 31, 2005. As I told you, it's done. All of the provinces and territories have given their approval for the framework of the future Protocol.Today, we are making an important step towards a strengthening of our collaboration with provinces and territories in order to provide young Canadians with a better access to minority language education and second-language learning. We are proud to count on the renewed commitment of provincial and territorial partners towards linguistic duality. With this agreement, we are making significant progress towards the objectives of Canada's Official Languages Action Plan. I'll come back to the significance of this very important step towards the pursuit of our objectives in education and official languages.Let me explain in general terms what this Protocol consists of.The Protocol is a document that covers four years. It outlines the general collaborative mechanisms for official languages education and establishes the amount of the federal contributions earmarked for each province and territory. Using the Protocol as a basis, the Minister of Canadian Heritage concludes bilateral cost-shared agreements with each of the provinces and territories. These agreements are matched with action plans describing provinces' and territories' specific projects and uses for the funding.Over the last several years, significant progress has been accomplished with respect to minority-language education. Today, young Canadians, Anglophones or Francophones living in a minority situation, have the right to a quality education in their first official language. Thanks to court cases initiated as a result of section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and with federal-provincial support for education and official languages, today, there are Francophone school management structures in place in each province and territory. Francophones manage their own schools.Post-secondary education has also made a considerable leap over the last years with, notably, the creation of a network of Francophone community colleges in Ontario. The Association des universités de la francophonie canadienne groups together 13 institutions in Atlantic Canada, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and in Alberta. The number of young Francophones in minority official-language communities who have a university-level degree can now be advantageously compared to the Canadian average.With respect to second-language education, right now, 24 percent of young Canadians ages 15 to 19 know the other official language. In addition, 47 percent of the total school population is registered in second-language programs at the elementary and secondary levels. That's one out of two young people who have the chance to learn their second official language at school.Obviously, progress made identifies what is left to be done. The witnesses that you have heard up until now have not hidden the amount of work yet to be done. I will mention some of the challenges.It is a fact, for example, in comparing results of some reading tests, that the level of performance of Francophone schools in minority situations compared to the results of majority schools should be improved. We also realize that we must encourage the provinces and territories who wish to increase their efforts in the area of early childhood development and preparation for schooling. Other tasks await us at the elementary and secondary levels: promotion of access, upgrading linguistic skills, improving the quality of programs and cultural enrichment of the education milieu are all sectors for investment which require urgent intervention.Finally, support for the development of the French-language post-secondary education network remains a priority as well. Moreover, in order for more Canadians to have the chance to master their second official language, we must improve core and immersion programs and increase the number of qualified teachers while at the same time providing young people with more possibilities to use their linguistic skills.All of these questions are at the top of our list of funding priorities in terms of our discussions with the provincial and territorial governments.(0915)[English] All of these challenges are at the heart of the Government of Canada's action plan for official languages, which was announced two years ago. Why is this plan so important? In fact, the action plan is innovative in three ways. First, the plan encompasses our work plan over 10 years. With respect to education, there are no miracle solutions. Results take time to achieve, especially when they are dependent on the concerted effort of a number of players.Secondly, the action plan establishes targets that are national, clear, and measurable. For second language instruction, the plan is to raise the proportion of bilingual francophones and anglophones in the 15-year-old to 19-year-old age group to 50% by 2013. For minority education, 80% of eligible students should be registered at French schools. These objectives allow us to change the way we do things. They pave the way to more rigorous accountability measures, which are important to the Canadian population and which have been requested by the communities.Finally, the action plan adds targeted funds in amounts well above regular funding for maintenance and improvement of programs. For minority official language education, this means $209 million over five years, as well as a separate envelope of $137 million over five years for second language instruction. In addition, $35 million over five years will be used to increase participation in the very popular summer language bursary and official language monitor programs.[Translation]A 10-year vision does not come to life with ad hoc measures. That is why the Action Plan for Official Languages, which mobilizes significant resources and renews collaboration between all of the partners, was created. We want to encourage the provinces and territories to work together more on common projects. The CMEC has the mandate to facilitate horizontal collaboration between the provinces and territories.Through the CMEC, pan-Canadian programs such as the Summer Language Bursary Program and the Official Language Monitor Program have become exemplary successes. This horizontal collaboration seems promising.A concerted effort by several governments will be necessary to create pedagogical tools which are better adapted to the challenges found in the minority official-language community milieu, to promote research on official languages questions and to arm ourselves with adequate tools to measure results. The CMEC could become a very important forum with which to meet these challenges.I know that many organizations that you have met have been upset by the delays in the negotiations. Real progress has been accomplished over the last few months and I would like to tell you about it.[English]With respect to what is happening on the ground in the current school year of 2004-05, 38 bilateral agreements were conducted by March 31 by provinces and territories. These include core funding agreements, targeted fund agreements, and auxiliary agreements for special projects such as infrastructure. It must also be remembered that the provinces and territories have until June 30 to spend these funds.As I mentioned earlier, we have been negotiating with the Council of Ministers of Education Canada to renew our protocol. The protocol is the multi-year umbrella agreement with the provinces and territories on official languages in education. It provides a common framework of collaboration to meet the ultimate goals of Canada's action plan for official languages and paves the way for the negotiation of bilateral agreements where the specific concerns and challenges of each province and territory are taken into consideration.[Translation]As I mentioned earlier, it gives me pleasure to confirm that we have obtained consensus from all of the provinces and territories on the framework of the next Protocol.It includes details on all of the questions that the Protocol should cover, including the following: implementation of the objectives of Canada's Action Plan; transparent, fair and equitable distribution of available budgetary envelopes among the provinces and territories; collaborative mechanisms that enhance the achievement of pan-Canadian initiatives; reinforcement of an accountability framework; consultation methods of groups and associations interested in minority official-language education and second official-language instruction.[English]This framework will serve as a basis for the next multi-year protocol, which governs the federal government's collaboration with the provinces and territories for the next cycle of bilateral agreements. We have given ourselves 90 days to complete and sign the protocol and the bilateral agreements.(0920)[Translation]Considering the progress made on the principles of a future Protocol, the consensus on the allocation of funds, and the fact that within the 2004-2005 bilateral agreements there are already many projects which are to be undertaken over the next few years, the road is paved towards advancing the objectives of the federal Action Plan for Official Languages in the area of education.[English] In short, we're working very hard to deliver on all our obligations and all our promises with respect to our official languages. Our commitment is strong, and much progress has been made.[Translation]Since my nomination as Minister of Canadian Heritage, I met with several ministers of education across the country, several community organizations including the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, representatives of post-secondary organizations and school boards. I discussed education with the Commissioner of Official Languages on two occasions. I met the President of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones who spoke to me about their Strategy to complete the French language education system in Canada, a remarkable initiative.From all corners of the country and from all those I met, the same message was heard: our children's education is a priority; the challenges are huge, but we are ready to face them. I intend to work closely with all who wish to advance minority official-language education throughout Canada with me. I invite you to share your vision and ideas with me. Thank you again for inviting me to appear before you. I am now ready to take your questions.I want to point out that Hubert Lussier and Eileen Sarkar are here with me. They are the two individuals who negotiated the Protocol in the field. At the same time, as I mentioned, I met with all the ministers of education. We're talking about some intense negotiations. I'm very pleased with the result today.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0920)[Translation]You shouldn't confuse matters. There's education on the one hand and the Canada-community agreements on the other. First of all, we were negotiating the Protocol when you met with the school boards and all those whom you met. Obviously, in that kind of context, messages come from everywhere. They're obviously waiting for the matter to be resolved upstream.That's why I'm announcing that the Protocols were signed with the Council of Ministers of Education for four years rather than three. I'm convinced those organizations would react quite differently today, tomorrow or the next day. The Protocol was signed for four years, from 2006-2007 until 2010. Consequently, the money will be paid in accordance with the mechanisms I referred to. I believe the situation is resolved. Furthermore, there will be a meeting of all stakeholders every two years to see whether adjustments are necessary.It was long because it involved 34 agreements. As of today and for the next four years, there will be 28 agreements. In the case of four-year agreements, they have to be significant. The agreements have to be such that the provinces, for example, have their own flexibility and are satisfied. In a field like this, I'm deeply convinced that the important thing is not force, but, to a much greater degree, collaborative work. All stakeholders must be convinced that the right thing is being done and that minority language education and second-language instruction are an important value for Canada.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[Translation]You have to distinguish between the Canada-community agreement and the education agreement. The education agreement, as I told you, is a major agreement and represents an enormous amount of work. The Protocol has been accepted by all the provinces. There now remain bilateral negotiations with the provinces to adapt that Protocol specifically to each of them.In the case of the agreement with the communities, there's already a base. The communities told us at one point that we should add $18 million to what Canada's Action Plan for Official Languages was offering. I admit that funding is necessary and that the communities are the watchdogs for the action plan as a whole, but, as I explained to the communities and Mr. Arès, before requesting $18 million from the Department of Finance because we think we need it, we have to prepare a file, and that's what we're doing. We've signed education agreements, and I said we would work with the communities and prepare a substantial file that's specific to them. In the meantime, this year, there's possibility of a 10 percent increase, which would represent from $2.5 million to $3 million.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[English]The agreement will be signed when we sit down with the communities. First of all, the communities could sign the agreements now, but the communities are saying, well, we're going to sign for a year because we need more money for next year. My argument was to say no, sign; we'll ensure the base and then we'll--and we will--make a case for an added budget.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[English]First of all, I come from private industry, sir, so no, I'm sorry--GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[English]No. The strategic planning is done. I don't think you understand. What we're talking about--GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[English]They know what their funds are going to be right now. I'm sorry.First of all, for education that's what we're doing. We concluded a four-year agreement exactly because of what you're saying, exactly because they needed money for strategic planning. That's the whole thing in education. We're talking about $1 billion.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[English]No. This is education. Education is not for next year. Education is for four years, and it's $1 billion we're putting into education for four years.As far as communities are concerned, they have their budget now. They know what their budget actually is. Because of the action plan, they know it could have an added value of 4%. They know that; they can plan on that; it's there. The only thing is, now they really want an increase in their funding for next year, so what we're saying is that we are going to build a case for them.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0930)[Translation]I'm going to tell you about the Protocol of Agreement and Hubert will talk about the terms of payment. An individual agreement was signed with the provinces for this year, 2004-2005; funds can therefore be paid until June. Most of the provinces customarily do the cash management, but the money is there for this year.Our challenge was to sign a long-term agreement with all the provinces on education, which is a provincial jurisdiction. All the terms and conditions had to be met. We weren't talking about the long term for this year. When I arrived, we could only talk about one year, since the long-term agreements were being prepared. Today, the Protocol guarantees our long-term participation, for the next four years. The funds for this year are consolidated; next year and in the following three years, there will be an automatic payment based on the Protocol.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0930)[Translation]No. Between the province and...? No.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0930)[Translation]The people responsible for the colleges said they had money for this year, but that they didn't know what would happen next year and thereafter. All that definitely depended on the signing of the Protocol.The long term — because you have to ensure the long term — also depended on signing and on the agreement we had with the Council of Ministers of Education. That's obviously our first stakeholder, since education is a provincial jurisdiction.So we had to negotiate. Those negotiations were extremely intense. I had to talk to the ministers of education on a number of occasions. We talked about the Protocol and all the bilateral negotiations. But today...GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0930)[Translation]Yes. Today I can tell you that the Protocol has been accepted. The long-term, four-year plan has been accepted. Every two years, we sit down with our main partners, that is to say the provinces, to determine whether there are any adjustments to be made.The communities are pleased. The provinces have accepted. Honestly, it's normal for it to be intense because we negotiate with the 10 partners, plus the territories. You'll also have to agree on terms and conditions. Our partners agreed at the outset to consult their groups, that is to say the school boards, the colleges and so on. They agreed to make sure there was a dialogue with their groups. That's in the Protocol of Agreement. They also agreed to report to the public on progress made each year with regard to minority language education and second-language instruction.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]There are two things for the communities. They have an increase under the action plan. The communities are telling us now — you heard them, as I did — that they are the watchdogs in the community and that they need more. They say the needs are growing, perhaps because, in a way, they are the victims of their own success. Needs are increasing. More and more minority Francophones are joining the groups.We've made this...GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]I think so. We've done a tour. I was in Manitoba last week. I think their needs are justified.Do they amount to $10, $18 or $20 million? That's what we have to know. The Action Plan for Official Languages currently provides for a 10 percent increase, which amounts to roughly $2.5, $3 or perhaps $4 million. We want to take care of community radio stations because we think that's fundamentally important. However, a month and a half before the budget, we can't say we think we need $18 million, when we're evaluating certain groups to determine whether the contribution of all the groups we support is significant and whether other groups should be supported.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]That figure isn't accurate. I'm going to ask Mr. Lussier, but it's more than that.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]Yes.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]It wasn't done this morning: on March 31, the texts were approved by officials and the Chair of the Council of Ministers of Education, Jean-Marc Fournier. However, the text of the Protocol also had to be officially approved by all the ministers. Last week, two ministers had not yet signed, and only one was left yesterday. Nunavut signed last night, and that's why I can announce it today.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]First of all, the Protocol is a framework for action, and that's why it was important to sign it. I'm going to let Hubert give you the details on the figures. At bottom, there's $655 million. How is that divided? I'll leave that to Hubert. The negotiations were completed and the provinces ratified the agreement.The Protocol constitutes the action plan under which money will be paid. Where there is a Protocol and money, there are also responsibilities. The communities were asking us for more responsibility and tighter accountability. They also wanted to be consulted. All that is also part of the Protocol itself. We also had to agree with the provinces and the provinces had to accept it, which they willingly did.That's why, every two years, as provided in the Protocol, we have to sit down and see whether there are any things to correct, in order to be sure that the terms and conditions of application are being met.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0940)[Translation]I'll let Hubert give you the exact figures because he has the tables with him.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstHubertLussier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0940)[Translation]As regards Canada Day, I'm going to answer you immediately. I readjusted the budget, and the provinces, including New Brunswick, will receive much more money this year, first of all.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0945)[Translation]Give me the time; I just got here.Second, for the communities, there was an increase of approximately $4 million in 1999-2000. Right now, we're talking about a 10 percent increase, which would represent $3.5 million this year. We're talking about that.We're talking about a significant increase. We have to be able to tell the communities, after conducting the evaluation... We don't do the community evaluation ourselves; they have to do it as well. I've gone to New Brunswick quite often, to Manitoba as well, and people who are very involved in those communities tell us that some associations, some groups deserve to be funded, and others less so, because times are changing. Some groups should also work together, or else merge. It's not up to us to do that; it's up to the communities to take that in hand. We'll present them with our evaluation and ask them what they think of it.Second...YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0945)[Translation]All right, but I'll get back to this.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0945)[Translation]We're currently investing more than a million dollars in minority media development. The minority media have suffered a great deal from all these discussions about the present situation: I'm talking about the sponsorships themselves and the attention paid to those events. I don't need to tell you that the program has been abolished.People often throw the baby out with the bath water because, contrary to all the figures given out, out of a $300 million program at the time, $200 million went to the communities. Events were announced. Very often, the community media, among others, and the local media benefited from this activity. Not any more. Obviously, it's a hard blow for both events across Canada and for the various media. I'm deeply saddened by that.That said, a certain amount is set aside under the action plan to help and compensate the community media. That's being done right now. We're currently analyzing the situation together, and we're looking at all the damage. We have money to help the radio stations that are having more trouble.We obviously have to adapt to the situation and to all the consequences we hadn't anticipated and planned for at the outset. So we'll have to help them financially. In some regions, community radio isn't community radio; it's the radio of the community. It's often the only medium that can maintain a dialogue with its community. We're definitely going to help it.Jean-ClaudeD'AmoursMadawaska—RestigoucheJean-ClaudeD'AmoursMadawaska—Restigouche//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0950)[Translation]The answer is yes, and I'm going to let Hubert Lussier give you the details. Eileen Sarkar will handle the negotiations based on the Protocol of Agreement with the provinces. The idea is to complete the bilateral negotiations on education so that the Protocol can be genuinely adapted to the needs of the province.New Brunswick won't be treated in the same way as Saskatchewan. Ontario is very different from the others. We agreed on that with the ministers of Education. Hubert Lussier will handle the situation of the community radio stations, among other things.Jean-ClaudeD'AmoursMadawaska—RestigoucheHubertLussier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0955)[Translation]As regards the first part of your question, which concerned what happened last year, I'll ask Hubert Lussier to answer. Then we'll talk about objectives.PierrePoilievreNepean—CarletonHubertLussier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0955)[Translation]The first year was obviously modest, as Mr. Lussier said. First, we were thinking about the introduction. In the second year, there were bilateral agreements. We had to agree with the provinces. Last year, there was an adjustment, from what I was told, because there was new funding. So we had to agree on how to do things. We reached an agreement for 2004-2005 only. That's been done. The provinces have until June 30. They've done cash management, and they're going to spend it.For the current years,[English]they have their four years. We were asked to negotiate three, but we thought, really, with the provinces, four was much better.HubertLussierPierrePoilievreNepean—Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0955)[Translation]I can't really talk about 1993 and 1998. However, I can tell you that it's a bit like when you negotiate a collective agreement. The more partners there are, the more intense the negotiations are, as I said earlier. In addition, there are new funds in these cases. It should be borne in mind that the 1993 and 1998 agreements still apply. There's no problem with the funds that were there at the time; however, since the action plan has new funds, we had to sign a new agreement rather than extend the one we previously had. Of course, in this kind of situation, you sit down at the table with the provinces and territories. In addition, the needs are very different now.The province of New Brunswick argued that it was the only bilingual province in Canada, which is an entirely accurate argument. You definitely have to adjust to the needs in New Brunswick in a bilateral context. You can't deal with that province in the same way as Saskatchewan, for example.In Quebec, the minority language is English. That's a different case. As a result of all those differences, you have to negotiate. Some want more, others want less, and that's normal. The parties have to agree amongst themselves. That's why we've signed a four-year rather than a three-year agreement, as was planned.PierrePoilievreNepean—CarletonPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1000)[Translation]We are too.MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansMarcGodboutOttawa—Orléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1000)[Translation]That's why the Protocol was necessary. I'm not going to claim the situation was easy. We were advised to simply negotiate bilaterally and to set the framework aside. But we gave ourselves another chance. I must say that it was my colleagues who advised me to do so. At one point, we were tempted simply to proceed bilaterally, period. My two colleagues convinced me to make another try. The fact is that, in proceeding bilaterally, we negotiate with one province at a time, as a result of which it's not equal. Some provinces have more experience than others. For example, Manitoba and New Brunswick automatically opt for a consultation and accountability mechanism. Other provinces are less used to this kind of situation or have another, different way of operating.However, if we're drafting the text of a Protocol stating that accountability must be reinforced, that means that there will be two systems: it will be equal across Canada, even if some provinces are a little ahead of others because of their Francophone population. We also have an obligation to consult the community.Now we're getting ready to start another discussion, and that will focus on Bill S-3. If the bill is passed, it will also reinforce consultation mechanisms, which would then become subject to legal action. All that's being put in place and means that, ultimately, we'll be held more accountable.MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansMarcGodboutOttawa—Orléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1000)[Translation]That's correct.MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansMarcGodboutOttawa—Orléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]Indeed, we've retained a certain amount, and the partners are in agreement, a certain amount to give us some leeway so that we can act bilaterally or directly, or support certain initiatives that further improve objectives. Those initiatives must obviously improve the objectives we've set under the action plan. That's why we've retained that leeway so that we can intervene with the various partners.MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansMarcGodboutOttawa—Orléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]In fact, it's $28 million. The amount was increased by $4 million in 1999.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]Hubert tells me that the $24 million is for Francophones only; if you consider all assistance to the minority communities, including Quebec — because it should be excluded — it's $28 million. That's part of the total assistance to the minority language communities.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]Currently, we could grant a $2.5 million to $3 million increase under the action plan. However, the president says it's not enough. I understand that it's not enough, but it's there.Now that the education and services questions have been resolved, I've agreed with the communities. I'm trying to reach a bilateral agreement with them which would mean that they would review all the organizations and work with them to make some more efficient, if necessary.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]It's being done.Second, I agreed with the communities to prepare a brief based on a policy to ensure a longer-term increase mechanism. But two months before the budget, we can't suddenly say that $18 million would be nice. It's impossible for us to defend that. We have to sit down together.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]It means that it has to be accepted by both sides.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]Yes, there is, since we've had meetings. They've conducted consultations. Now we're sitting down together and asking each other a number of questions. What are the resources? Where are we most active? What are the organizations and mechanisms — we won't tell them what to do — that they still support? What's the necessary increase, not only for next year, but for the years to come?A lot of projects are under way and everything is important, but we really had to reach agreements on education.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]You have to beware. We're talking about support for the minority language. That's English in Quebec and French elsewhere. However, all actions count as well. You can't just work in isolation.The action plan has been added, and that means a lot of money, $1 billion. There's been money from dedicated funding. There are specific components, including the CTF and the CBC. A number of support measures have been taken in recent years.Now let's go back to our isolation and to the communities. I've made a commitment to inviting the communities to sit down and(1010)[English] we will build a case.[Translation]I'm prepared to submit this matter to the Minister of Finance as soon as possible and to address it based on next year's budget. Until then, we'll add the 10 percent that comes out of our funds.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1010)[Translation]That's a fact.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1010)[Translation]I'm from a minority myself. It isn't in Quebec, but, if you consider America as a whole, you can very well understand.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1010)[Translation]There's one point that should be added. Money has been given for services and economic development. There's been money, but not everything's related to Canadian Heritage. There's now money for community support in the other departments.When you talk about Canadian Heritage... There's money that's been given elsewhere. The action plan provides money for services. That money is distributed elsewhere and by other departments. Our department negotiates specifically on the specific needs of the communities.The problem is this. We all agree there are needs. We all agree there are additional funding needs. You have to put together a solid case for each government, regardless of the person in my position. You have to get there. Is it $4 million, $8 million, $10 million, $15 million, $18 million, $25 million?YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]That's false. You shouldn't say that...YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]I know. I agree.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[Translation]Canada Day is something else. We're going to have more for that. I hope you'll be happy. That said...YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[English]First of all, the question has been answered. When they proposed the action plan, the first year it was déjà entamés, and the money is progressive. For the first year of the whole action plan you had the 3.5%, and then year after year the percentage gets bigger and bigger. It's progressive and it was planned that way to start off with. That's one.Two, as far as looking at our way of doing things is concerned, the Auditor General can always come and look at our books. They do it for Canadian Heritage, they did it in this case, and they're doing it for all of our programs, so we don't have any problem with that.MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[English]Well, an evaluation if need be, but it's very important to see that within...this was a long-term plan, le plan d'action, and within this long-term plan there was a way of having the money flow. The first year it was a very small sum and the second year a little bigger, and now that we have the four-year entente for education that's specific for every province, we are going to be on target. If anybody wants to evaluate, they can evaluate; we're very open.MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[English]Well, Heritage has been doing it for 30 years. Heritage is responsible for the whole.... “Heritage” doesn't really describe exactly what we're doing--MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]Heritage is really responsible for culture within Canada, and we also have multiculturalism within the Heritage portfolio.Saying that the job has not been done.... It's the first time we've had to negotiate 28 ententes and we have to negotiate with all our partners and provinces, so it doesn't go as fast--and I understand that--as the milieu would like, in certain cases. But let's face it, this is the way the government has to work.MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]You'll notice that it's in every program. You will notice, if it is in anything--official languages or whatever--that the first year you implement any program, anywhere in the government, it starts off slower. Knowing that, we can't put money there knowing that it will not be spent, because there is the implementation process to be thought of. MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]Well, I'll tell you, when you have to negotiate.... When I was at a provincial level, the government was a Conservative government and the Conservatives did exactly the same thing. We have to understand that if you have an agreement based on five years--the plan of action, as far as the objective goes, is over 10 years--if you're responsible, and you do have-- MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinMauriceVellacottSaskatoon—Wanuskewin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English]Yes, yes, but not this one. For us, it's going to go for four years, but this is how it's done, because then--MauriceVellacottSaskatoon—WanuskewinPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[Translation]Twenty-eight million dollars.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[Translation]Yes. In addition to those under the agreements, other amounts are allocated, to the FCFA and to the community radio stations, for example.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]Roughly.Is that correct? Thirty-three million dollars.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]No provision is made for that in view of the present climate. That's another subject, but the Department of Canadian Heritage has a program called Arts Presentation Canada. It subsidizes cultural and professional activities. If requests are made for cultural and professional projects, people can get involved in that. There's also an agency called EDC, Economic Development Canada, which can lend a hand in international tourism events.There's definitely a loss as a result of all these activities, not only in Quebec, but across Canada. For the moment, there's no response to our requests for assistance. For the moment. For the moment! We can't say the situation won't change, but, for the moment, that's unfortunately the way things are.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]We support them. I think they're receiving assistance for some of their activities. In other cases, what can I say? The program no longer exists. Once again, I find it unfortunate that everything's been bundled together and that the program no longer exists. The baby's been thrown out with the bath water.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]We still come back to the same thing. The communities have obviously been involved in this kind of case. I come back to my initial premise, and I repeat that the communities must be supported so that they can act as watchdogs for our action plans. You don't need to convince me. To date, I've kept the promises I've made. Nevertheless, I won't make any specific promises here if I can't keep them. I'm sorry, but that's how I've operated throughout my life.I said the community should be supported so that there's follow-up and so they can play their role. As I say, we're now going to set up a file on a more ongoing basis so that it's possible to plan rather than operate one year at a time, a situation I detest. That's the objective. I won't stop saying it, but I want it to be very clear.That said, the agreements on services are something new. Things are going very well with regard to health services, but there's also economic development. That's new as well. It is important that other departments feel really responsible for supporting Canada's official languages and that they understand that that support is not provided solely by Canadian Heritage. Giving them specific responsibilities is the only way to ensure that they will participate fully in this initiative to support the official languages.RaymondSimardHon.Saint BonifaceRaymondSimardHon.Saint Boniface//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]Once you have the Protocol of Agreement, reporting should be done every year. The review, however, is conducted every two years. It's a review not of the Protocol — the Protocol, it's also the percentages — but a review of all actions. We want to know whether, together, we've achieved the objectives we set for ourselves. We also want to know whether the ultimate objective, which is that 80 percent of rightsholders can have access to educational institutions, has been achieved. So there's reporting every year and a review every two years.There are also the bilateral agreements with the various provinces to adapt the Protocol to their needs. The education issue is negotiated at this stage because Manitoba is different from New Brunswick, which in turn is different from the others. That's where that will be negotiated.I have to tell you something because there was a discussion on the subject. There's a very obvious, very specific will in the provinces to be serious about applying these services. It must nevertheless be known that the provinces are participating a lot... They're giving a lot.RaymondSimardHon.Saint BonifacePabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1030)[Translation]No, that didn't affect the agreements. The sponsorships involved support for activities across Canada, in all regions. That could be tourist or economic activities.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1030)[Translation]That's a good example. Canadian Heritage is partly responsible for that, in the context of Arts Presentation Canada. There's another part that doesn't apply to the program.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1030)[Translation]First, I'm going to be very clear. A $2.5 to $3 million increase may be available in the present budget. That's a genuine possibility for this year, for 2005-2006. The money is there and the possibility is real. The money is available.Second, there's also this desire to sit down at the table with the present chair or with the new chair who will be in place in June. First, there has to be the transition, and then you have to get to know the new chair's vision. We have to respect that. There's this will on both sides to sit down and draft a brief.If you're telling me we've given the corporations a tax cut of a few billion dollars, I'll answer that we allocated $1 billion to agriculture last week. We can give you lots of examples.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1030)[Translation]One billion dollars for agriculture is good. That's in addition to the other amounts for agriculture.I agree. The need was there. It was identified and the action measures were entirely precise. That's what we're doing now with the communities.I want to tell you we first have to draft this brief. Apart from that, it's not money...YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[Translation]I'm obliged to answer that that's the responsibility of the Minister of Finance. We don't encroach on the areas of others. Consequently, I'm obliged to answer that $2.5 to $3 million is available this year. We're going to prepare a file in anticipation of the next budget. If I can present it earlier, so much the better, but for the moment we anticipate that it will be for the next budget.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstYvonGodinAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[Translation]That doesn't mean it won't necessarily be the step that should be taken, but I'm obliged to give you that answer.YvonGodinAcadie—BathurstPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla (Minister responsible for Status of Women): (1525)[English]Thank you very much. I'm with people you know: Nanci-Jean Waugh, Florence Ievers, and Hélène Dwyer-Renaud.[Translation]It is an honour to appear before you, members of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, as you conclude your study of gender-based analysis. I look forward to your report. I am also pleased to be here to discuss Status of Women Canada's Main Estimates for 2005-2006.My colleague Florence Levers and I will answer your questions to the extent we are able to do so. Otherwise, we'll be pleased to send you supplementary answers should you require.As you know, the Standing Committee is playing a key role in keeping gender equality front and centre, both inside and outside of government.Your report in February addressed increases to Women's Program funding—we're well aware of that—which is a key means of supporting the work of women's and other equality-seeking groups. I very much appreciate your input; the government as well.In 2005-2006, Status of Women Canada[English]will do its part to sustain that momentum by promoting equitable public policy by performing gender-based analysis; coordinating federal government activities and reporting on progress; building knowledge and organizational capacity on gender equality by gathering, generating, and disseminating gender equality information; and funding research and community-based action.Last month, with a few of you, I led the Canadian delegation to the United Nations Beijing +10 meeting in New York, where the UN looked at progress made on gender equality around the world. I was pleased to have parliamentarians and representatives of non-governmental organizations in our delegation. They are integral to advancing Canada's domestic and international work in gender equality. To be effective, our work must involve a commitment from across governments and civil society.[Translation]Canada's international commitments, such as Beijing and its follow-up meetings, Canada's ratification of the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, CEDAW, and others, spur on domestic activity. In Canada, these commitments are reflected in the Federal Plan for Gender Equality, launched in 1995, and in 2000, the Agenda for Gender Equality.Positive results have been realized and we are committed to achieving further successes. For example: the introduction of a policy on gender-based analysis in government, the development of training, tool development, policy case studies and pilot projects; criminal law reforms aimed at providing increased protection for victims of sexual assault and other violent offences, and the introduction of trafficking as an offence in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act; (1530)[English]the inclusion of sexual orientation as a prohibited ground of discrimination in the Canadian Human Rights Act; initiatives including increases to the Canada child tax benefit, the doubling of parental leave, the introduction of compassionate care leave, and the recent commitment to a national child care program; and in the area of health, the creation of centres of excellence for women's health, the establishment of the Institute of Gender and Health, and the launch of Health Canada's women's health strategy. I am pleased and proud that with Canada's strong support, all countries unanimously reaffirmed the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action. At Beijing +10, countries shared experiences and best practices on how they are integrating Beijing and CEDAW commitments. They are all making progress on gender equality, and while Canada compares well, we can learn from others. [Translation]For example, the Government of Norway has a legislative framework, which includes a human rights act and a Gender Equality Act.And the World Bank is an example of an institution that seeks to advance gender equality within its operations. Its initiatives include an operational policy for Gender Mainstreaming and a Gender Mainstreaming Strategy.At Beijing +10, a resolution was adopted on gender mainstreaming at the national level, setting out what is required to achieve gender equality results—for example, government plans and accountability mechanisms.In this framework, gender mainstreaming ensures that responsibility for all legislation, policies and programs is shared across government. It also underscores the fact that gender-based analysis is a key tool to accomplish this strategy, bringing a gender lens to the work of government, and ensuring the impacts on diverse groups are fully considered and reflected in federal initiatives.[English]To remain the world leader, Canada must continue to advance a federal strategy on gender equality. We must also continue to address key gaps: poverty among those groups of women, the situation of aboriginal women, and the need for greater accountability mechanisms across government to advance gender equality. Toward that end, Status of Women Canada is preparing a diagnostique to examine patterns and trends among women and men and to determine where greater efforts are needed to identify and address gender equality policy gaps.In establishing the strategy direction for the next five-year cycle, Status of Women Canada will be guided by the CEDAW recommendations, along with Canada's Beijing +10 experience. Status of Women Canada will also maintain its leadership in coordinating the development and implementation of a new federal strategy to address this critical gap in Canada and achieve further progress with its partners.Our federal strategy objectives are to achieve measurable results toward the Government of Canada, to engage Canadians more systematically in the policy process, and to strengthen transparency and accountability.[Translation]The Government of Canada now has the opportunity to demonstrate accountability and build on the Agenda for Gender Equality in a more structured way. We will look to address outstanding inequities—particularly for women who face the greatest barriers to equality, including Aboriginal women, immigrant women and lone parents—with relevant targeted initiatives; improve compliance and reporting mechanisms through better coordination and data collection; integrate GBA in policy planning and design; and ensure women's perspectives contribute to future planning.As we develop a new federal strategy on gender equality, there is a need for ongoing consultations and dialogue, both inside and outside government. This will be a priority over the next few months.[English]Status of Women Canada will continue to work with government departments to address the challenges women face. Particular concerns include the situations of lone-parent women, women who must balance paid work and caregiving, and women who experience multiple barriers due to the combination of gender and other factors. These could include measures to improve access to benefits, support children and families, and improve the circumstances of women who are disadvantaged in the labour market.In addressing issues of particular importance to aboriginal women, Status of Women Canada will continue working with their organizations on economic, social, legal, and political concerns. Status of Women Canada will work with key partners at local, regional, and national levels to support initiatives that increase public awareness, create institutional change, increase the capacity of aboriginal women's organizations, and influence public policy in areas such as violence and poverty.(1535)[Translation]In creating a federal strategy on gender equality, we have a solid foundation to build upon—the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and other legislation give us a strong legal framework for equality. Gender-based analysis gives life to our ability to follow both the letter and the spirit of the Charter. We are recognized world leaders in the development of gender-based analysis tools and training, and in gender statistics and indicators.We also have well-established and internationally recognized coordination mechanisms through Status of Women Canada and other focal points, and through our federal-provincial/territorial network of Ministers responsible for Status of Women and we have strong advocates in women's organizations.We are ideally positioned to establish key federal policy priorities to address the most critical needs, to improve coherence through horizontal coordination, to accelerate mainstreaming and gender-based analysis of all policies and to ensure stronger accountability for results.We have achieved varying levels of success in applying gender-based analysis across the government. We now need to dig deeper to consider the lessons learned, and the pros and cons of existing accountability mechanisms.[English]For determining how to achieve our goals, the work of this committee will be critical. Indeed, your study on gender-based analysis will be an important document for this government to review.We must also continue our dialogue in consultation with women's and other equality-seeking groups and with government departments and agencies.[Translation]We must remain focused on ending violence against women, increasing the economic security of women and improving the situation of Aboriginal women. We must strengthen gender-based analysis, so that we find gaps and emerging issues, and address them with strong government policies. We might also wish to look at our policy-making structures to determine whether gender-based analysis is properly established in the central agencies of Government.[English]The old challenges remain and a new one arises. It is a question of individual people, organizations, communities, governments, and nations accepting their responsibilities and getting involved from the grassroots level up. Gender equality is everyone's business. This standing committee is a key element in keeping gender equality on the agenda of parliamentarians and other Canadians and in their hearts and minds too.Florence, my team, and I are happy to take your questions. I think we'll have certain things we would like to suggest to the committee to have this dialogue go on.AnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South CentreAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1535)[English]That's fine. If it's fine with you, it's fine with me.AnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South CentreAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1540)[English]As you know--and we've discussed it--we developed the tools from 2000 to 2005. Now the challenge is for every department to systematically use those tools to analyze their policies on a gender-based equality form. Some departments are doing it better than others. I have to tell you it does also take the will and the mindset to do it. That is why I had a discussion with my colleagues, and there is a will to analyze the opportunity to bring forth a bill on gender equality. I have to tell you the discussion I had was with the Minister of Finance. His appearance at this committee and at our women's caucus was quite revealing for him, in the sense that he realized that they tried to do gender-based analysis while presenting the budget, but he also realized--as others realize, being here--that perhaps we could go further. If the committee wants to be a partner in this, I would really look forward to it. My suggestion would be to explore the opportunity to learn from other countries' experiences of bringing forward a bill on gender equality, so that like England, Germany, and the nordic countries, we would systematically apply this gender-based analysis.LynneYelichHon.BlackstrapLynneYelichHon.Blackstrap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1540)[English]That's a discussion I had today at cabinet. I think it worked.As for the convincing mode, some departments think they do it, and do it systematically; some, again, mix the concept. Should it be equity versus gender equality? So there was a lot of education to do.I have to tell you even in my own other department, Canadian Heritage, we really had to sit down and ask ourselves what we're doing. Are we doing it okay? Are we doing it enough? We could do just okay, but we could do more, we could do better, and we could do a perfect job.Going from one to the other--me, the women's caucus, and the people around me--and coming from the Minister of Finance, and colleagues also, I was extremely pleased to see they were quite open to going as far as some other countries in having a bill on gender equality, which is more than the will. There is also, for those who are more difficult to convince, the obligation to do it.JoySmithKildonan—St. PaulJoySmithKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1545)[English]First of all, you have to understand it's not all provinces. There are three provinces. Quebec is one, Saskatchewan, and.... It's hit and miss.What we've done, first of all, is develop the tools, because without any tools.... Now what we've asked also is that departments systematically have one person responsible, so that there's a dialogue. This has been done and is in place. As I said, it has worked in some departments. Other departments are more male gender-based, so they don't feel the same way or don't know how to apply it. It's a question of how to do it and to do it very positively. We did a lot of educating. It worked, because we came this far, to the point where colleagues are now comfortable enough to say, we wouldn't mind looking at a gender-based equality bill, because we feel comfortable enough to say it's going to be systematic, and it should now be in the system. If the federal level gives the example, then it could be picked up by the other provinces and also by the private sector.JoySmithKildonan—St. PaulAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1545)[English]As far as the systematic way we have to audit is concerned, we do audit, but I'll let Hélène talk about it, because Hélène is responsible for doing the auditing and also for working with the different departments.SusanKadisThornhillHélèneDwyer-Renaud//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1545)[English]I will let Hélène answer, because Hélène is working with the different departments. We see some progress in some, a will in others, a “how do we do it?” in others. As we said before, it's not equal.SusanKadisThornhillHélèneDwyer-Renaud//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1550)[English]I asked my officials. When you come to a portfolio, you want to be perfect in that portfolio. The question is, are we perfect? The answer is not quite. So now, systematically, the heritage department is implementing the gender-based analysis. We are going to do audits. Of course, we do have a certain department.... When you talk about heritage, when you talk about culture, you have to do it. You don't understand why it's not completely perfect, but let's face it, now we're becoming a model department.SusanKadisThornhillSusanKadisThornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1550)[English]First of all, this committee really helped a lot in having those departments coming in and systematically asking the questions, because it really supports us in what we're saying. When you have a horizontal responsibility, it's a responsibility, yes, but it's not authority. That's why we were asking why you have to convince them, then. That's because it's not an authority; it's a responsibility. So if there are more people there to say take it seriously, it's not only them, but we're there also to check you. It does help.So continue doing so. I think it's really, really helpful.Also, I believe in it, but we have to explore, as I said, the possibility of the bill and learn by other countries' experience. What are they doing? What kind of bill? Where do they go? Is it applicable to us? How to, if...? So if the committee would like to help us analyze and go see for itself what has been done in other countries, it would help us. If we say collectively, after analyzing it, that this is the route to take because it's Canada, because it's our values, because we're sort of a model.... When we went to UNESCO, we found there were a lot of things we could improve, but there were a lot of things that we do right.We have to analyze and explore. If the committee would like to help us in this task, we'd be more than happy to work with you.SusanKadisThornhillAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1550)[English]Yes.In regard to increasing the budget, we will be finishing the evaluation of our programs in June 2005. We will be coming up with a new policy during the fall, I would say, for 2005 to 2010. We will finish Beijing, analyze Beijing, how we can compare ourselves, where to go, and then come with an integrated policy from 2005 to 2010.While doing so, when you go back to the finance department, you have to say we're coming up with a policy and this is what we need. This is basically what the finance department did ask us, and we're proceeding in doing so.This week I met with the Coalition for Women's Equality. Yesterday we met with the Labour Congress. We all agreed that by also doing a consultation with them and not working in a silo--en vase clos--we will come up with this policy for 2005 to 10, and then, as well as policy, different action measures. Of course, then there's discussion with the finance department. That's why everything should be integrated. Again, this idea of a bill on equality should perhaps be integrated if this is a route we want to take.SusanKadisThornhillAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1555)[English]First of all, with respect to the Department of Finance, when they were talking to me, they were sure they were doing a gender-based analysis budget. They were convinced and the Minister of Finance remains convinced. He realized (a) that they talk more about equity than gender-based analysis--that's what they realized--and (b) that to do a gender-based analysis budget.... When we give them our recommendation, they choose--don't forget that they choose. We have to do the work ourselves before it gets to Finance, because they can't do the work for us and we don't want them to. In the federal government.... It's big and it's heavy, so to implement it is a challenge, as you realize when you're talking to other departments. Everybody has to understand the same thing. Even if we do have the how-tos, the procedures have to be the same in order to have accountability afterwards. I can't tell you the statistics, but the results of the accountability, the questions, and the evaluation of what everybody's doing, have to be on the same base.So yes, this is a challenge. That's why I'm asking, how can we go further? As far as I'm concerned, a bill is as far as we can go, and then with the equality measure going with it, while we'll try to continue to convince, I think this is the maximum we can do. Let's see what comes up in our consultation analysis, but if it's positive, it could be a big plus.As far as consultation for the plan goes, what we said to the Coalition for Women's Equality, and we'll work with them and with you, is that we would like to be able to put together experts--I'm not excluding women's groups; on the contrary--like Dr. Rankin, like other people who come from different groups, who come with their different experiences, and ask them to put together a paper on the how-tos, and then consult with women's groups and parliamentarians so that they're part of it. So when we come up with the 2005 policy, for example, we will all be part of it. It's really all of us, and I would say all of them and all of us parliamentarians--all parties, all equal--because this is something that we women have to push. So this is the how-to.Florence.JeanCrowderNanaimo—CowichanFlorenceIevers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1600)[English]We would say Citizenship and Immigration, because of the kind of portfolio they have. I would say then Heritage Canada, but the portfolio is sort of different, and we do multiple things. Immigration is more continuous policy-wise. I would say Immigration, which is doing a beautiful job.HelenaGuergisHon.Simcoe—GreyHelenaGuergisHon.Simcoe—Grey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1605)[English]First of all, it is not a reward. It is really to help the NAC initiative; their initiative is how NAC relates. It is also for them to examine NAC's future direction with its members and key stakeholders. But we are not giving them the money right up front. It is a work in progress with them. Florence, do you want to comment?HelenaGuergisHon.Simcoe—GreyFlorenceIevers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1605)[Translation]I in fact just spoke with some of those organizations, including the Fédération des femmes du Québec, two days ago. In 1998, the programs were changed: we dropped continuing grants or grants for operations and focused more on programs. However, we now realize that, in some cases, people do need assistance or support, if only at the administrative level, as you say, so they can be more effective in the field.We'll be conducting evaluations of our programs in August of this year. That's why the people at the Department of Finance told us to finish our program evaluations and then to go back and see them. So we'll complete our program evaluations in August of this year and, at the same time, we'll establish a procedure for overall policies for 2005 to 2010 under which, if we decide to take part in the operation, we'll determine how we do so that contribution is as useful as possible and so these women can be in the field rather than in their offices making calculations.CaroleLavalléeSaint-Bruno—Saint-HubertCaroleLavalléeSaint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1610)[Translation]Indeed. We usually meet our deadlines, regardless of the field. We set schedules precisely in order to force ourselves to meet them.CaroleLavalléeSaint-Bruno—Saint-HubertCaroleLavalléeSaint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1610)[English]First of all, we have to say, though, that because of the gender-based initiative, the Agenda for Gender Equality, there has been an increase of $20.5 million since 2000, over the last five years.You're right, our agencies weren't touched by the reallocation process at all, and the diminution we had--the $200,000, for example--was a contribution to the government-wide reallocation exercise last year, not this year. Do you remember when the government asked for $1 billion two years ago? This year we refused to do it, because all departments were asked again, and I would have to say we made a case--we can't say no--that for us it was not applicable. Also, there was some reduced funding, but it was because the programs were finishing, so in fact we're not working with less. Do you know what? I'm going to tell you very honestly here, especially to this committee, that if I were working with less, I would tell you. I know you meet with all of our colleagues, and since I say it's horizontal...then you can help me out. But I have to be honest: this year we're not working with less; we're working with equal money. Again, the evaluation of our programs finishes in August 2005; there are needs and we know that. That's why we're coming up with an integrated policy; all together we could make a very good and solid case to have this budget increased now, especially if we want to have massive initiatives, like considering a bill on gender equality.RussPowersAncaster—Dundas—Flamborough—WestdaleFlorenceIevers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1615)[English]We do have the information that this year it's $23.4 million; that is correct. When we talk about operation expenditures--then we can ventilate the whole thing--it includes the research, and it's $11.3 million; grants and contributions are $10.8 million, and also contributions to employees and other social benefits are $1.3 million, so this is the total sum of the budget.Now, last year it was $11.6 million versus $11.3 million as far as operating expenditures are concerned, and this is where you can see the difference.AnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South CentreAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1615)[English] First of all, as you said, and with very good reason, we don't have a written plan. We are going to come up with a written plan. It was noticed by us and by you that the accountability measures are not there or are not sufficient. We are going to put accountability measures to the point where we want to have a bill.Also, we are coming up now with a definite policy. I think that now for 2005 to 2010 we need a definite policy. We know we have made some progress, but we need better tools to evaluate them very strongly and strictly. That's where we are now. That's why we're saying we are in the process of developing this policy with all of you and the groups, and together we will push for it.JeanCrowderNanaimo—CowichanJeanCrowderNanaimo—Cowichan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1620)[English]What happened is that we had to take part in interdepartmental committees in order (a) to present the tools, (b) to explain the tools, and (c) also to convince all the departments to have at least one person responsible so that we would have a direct intervention with the whole of the government.JeanCrowderNanaimo—CowichanJeanCrowderNanaimo—Cowichan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1620)[English]We're stretched.JeanCrowderNanaimo—CowichanJeanCrowderNanaimo—Cowichan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1620)[English]With a new plan that is, of course, properly funded, if we're very serious about this, and I think we are.... After the discussion I had in cabinet today, I can say that my colleagues also are. You're talking about looking at the overall picture and going as far as exploring the bill, and colleagues applaud you, including the Minister of Finance. You can say that perhaps we're now there. There is a good chance for all of us to really make a significant difference in this gender-based equality principle that we should have. I can't say that we should provide the leadership, because other countries had bills before us, but we should at least learn from them and from what's working well and come up with a really good Canadian bill for us.JeanCrowderNanaimo—CowichanAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1625)[English] Immigration, for example, does it. They're good at doing it and at breaking it down. They serve as a model. Is it done systematically? The answer is no. Gender-based analysis is not done systematically. We still have to continue to educate and convince.MarleneJenningsHon.Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—LachineMarleneJenningsHon.Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1625)[English]It is done by us, but it's one voice at the table. If you look at Heritage, yes. If you look at the board of the CBC, it is there. In our policies we try to implement it, but this is only one department. Immigration does it beautifully. As I said, it's one voice. We have to do something well, do something better, and do the best. But now we have the statistics. So you can use them. When you look at it, it is very clear that you can't really treat all women equally.MarleneJenningsHon.Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—LachineFlorenceIevers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1630)[English]Okay. First of all, I just want to comment on what you were saying about the evaluation. Yes, I do agree. I agree, and we're doing it systematically in Heritage, for example, in all our programs, in Tomorrow Starts Today and whatever, and in this one. What we want also is to make sure the money we have is well invested. I think we do have a very good record in both departments on this. So that's why I'm saying that after the evaluation, then we'll see if we go with the core funding, and the how-to. So for us it's very important.As far as the $1.3 million goes, yes, we do research. We also are asked by other departments to do research. Justice uses us, and sometimes Immigration uses us. So we're sort of the research department. If you want to have a list of all the research that we do, it would be a pleasure for us to give it to you, because it's really quite interesting.Regarding NAC, as I said, the money that was given for NAC--and of course I'm not distributing grants--is mostly in progress. No organization has a lump sum, but they do have to perform to get the full sum of money. NAC was very helpful. If NAC wants to do a housecleaning or reposition itself and really be a very active part and continue to be an active organization--and we knew from assessing it that its problem was that it needed to reorient itself--then on that basis we would say, okay, for what you've done up to now and because you've accepted the fact that you need reorientation, we will be a partner. We are not giving it up front, but we will be a partner. I'll let Florence continue, because they're really the ones, on a day-to-day basis....LynneYelichHon.BlackstrapFlorenceIevers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1630)[English]Well, (a), it's a judgment call to say “so easily”; (b), it was in March 2004 that the project was accepted; and (c), there are projects and programs coming before us and an independent evaluation that is of course done. There are programs that work better than others all the time, but you're there to help. If there is a partner who has been there for years and years and this organization, who really has done a very good job since 1972, decides to say, “Okay, we assessed the problem, we do have problems, and we are putting this in front of you because we want to prove to you that we are still relevant”, then it's very hard for all of us to say we are discarding them. That is most probably, I think, the way it was accepted at that point, I can assume.Now, the evaluation will tell us if, yes or no, we should continue with NAC. If the evaluation says no, this organization is not relevant anymore, then we will take a decision for it. We need to have the evaluation, and we cannot just say we think that, based on numbers. There is always a very humane--LynneYelichHon.BlackstrapLynneYelichHon.Blackstrap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1635)[English]Wait a minute. We gave funding. This is for a program. We also give funding to organizations for other programs.What we are not doing anymore--that is, assessing, asking whether or not we should--is the core funding. Since 1998 we do not finance core funding. Is it good, is it not? Was it the way to go in 2005? We are saying we should really get into it.... That is what we are going to assess. But all the groups now in front of us are into initiatives, but not into core funding.As I said, we are ready to review this if this is the future way to go.LynneYelichHon.BlackstrapLynneYelichHon.Blackstrap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1635)[English]Your question was on the total operational budget. It's $1.2 million for the policy research fund. It's $5.8 million for the key functional operations, which includes $3.5 million for the women's program and regional operation, because you know that we do have regional operations all over Canada; $1.5 million for policy and external relations; $0.5 million to work with either a department or a province, or whatever; $0.5 million for gender-based analysis; and $0.3 million for the research directorate.AnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South CentreLynneYelichHon.Blackstrap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1635)[English]No, the funding for NAC was--LynneYelichHon.BlackstrapLynneYelichHon.Blackstrap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1635)[English]First of all, the policy research fund is done by the department, and don't forget that all the departments have audits. So it's within our operational.... As I said, we do the research because either somebody demands it or a department demands it. So it's within our[Translation]way of doing things.(1640)[English]The grants and contributions that we give to programs in different organizations goes to evaluation. If you want to have the whole list of all the programs that we've been giving to, we can--JoySmithKildonan—St. PaulJoySmithKildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1640)[English]Yes, and sit with us, because at the end I would say there are certain departments....[Translation]There are some elements[English]within the government that.... When I was in Quebec, for example, all the women worked together, and I think that at the federal level we have this same will of working together. If you have any questions...it's Treasury Board's estimates, but it's us also. So please pick up the phone and either go through my cabinet or Florence. We would really be pleased to sit with you and see if there are needs or whatever, because let's face it, we don't have unlimited resources and we want to help. It's not unlimited resources, but it's unlimited needs. So if we can better ourselves, then let's do it. We're really ready to collaborate with all of you, and if you have particular...tell us right here, so that either we can answer questions or, as I said, be part of the process.FlorenceIeversLynneYelichHon.Blackstrap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1640)[English] Yes, I want to add an invitation.We met the Canadian Labour Congress yesterday, the women, on the issue of pay equity. They're here on May 4. They would like to meet individual caucuses, because May 4 is on a Wednesday. I know that on Wednesday we all have that agenda. They will come to all of you to meet your women's caucuses individually, be it the Bloc, you yourselves, or the NDP. And we'll do our part.At night, what I've offered is that at 5 o'clock or 5:30 we can all get together, all the women. We'll organize it. We'll have a little cocktail together with them. As I said, it's going to be one year after the committee brought the task force recommendations on pay equity, and we're not there yet.AnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South CentreAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla (Minister of Canadian Heritage): (1535)[Translation]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.First, I would like to introduce the people who are with me today. They are Ms. LaRocque, my Deputy Minister, whom you know, and Jean-Pierre Blais, who is our Assistant Deputy Minister. There's also my entire team of experts. If there are any technical questions I can't answer, please don't hesitate to ask them. And if we don't have the answers, we'll be pleased to send them to you. You should not forget that, despite my experience in Quebec, I've only been responsible for this department for four months. I unfortunately don't have all the answers, but I will.Madam Chair, I'm pleased to speak before the new committee. I would like to congratulate you and all the members of the committee who are here. I'm sincerely pleased to see you again and to work with you. My parliamentary secretary, Ms. Bulte, is here as well. I believe that culture is well represented on this committee.I must tell you that, day after day, I recognize how fortunate I am to hold this position. Since the summer, I have had the opportunity to meet people like you who are devoted to arts, culture and heritage. As elected officials, our specific duty is to give them policies and programs that fit their ambitions and their expectations. And that is exactly what I intend to do in carrying out the mandate entrusted to me by our Prime Minister, with your cooperation, I'm sure. I know that it is a big challenge, and I speak from experience, since I held a similar position in the Government of Quebec. Today, however, the scale of the task is taking on another dimension. It covers the entire country, and includes all the issues connected with our culture and our identity.The portfolio for which I am responsible includes the Department of Canadian Heritage and 18 Crown corporations and governmental groups. The Canadian Heritage Portfolio deals with questions of importance to society as a whole. I am referring to intercultural relations, the impact of culture on our quality of life and our prosperity, the preservation of our modes of expression, the place of artists in our society, the development of sport, and still more. Its field of responsibility is broad, including official and Aboriginal languages, artistic creation, museums, broadcasting and multiculturalism. Furthermore, my department includes the major institutions mandated to promote the growth of our culture, such as the CBC, the Canada Council for the Arts, Telefilm Canada and the National Film Board.As Minister of Canadian Heritage, I have set three main objectives for myself. They are: encouraging creativity; making arts and culture more accessible; and promoting our cultural identity nationally and internationally.(1540)[English]We can't talk about culture without recognizing the crucial role played by artists and creative people; they are the raw material of culture. Today, prosperity is the outcome of new ideas, and our creative people, our artists, are our greatest source of innovation. Our cultural industries rely on their ideas, their talent, their vision, their courage, and their commitment. This was the context for the launch of the Tomorrow Starts Today initiative in 2001. Tomorrow Starts Today is the Government of Canada's most significant investment in culture since the creation of the Canada Council for the Arts. This initiative has enabled us to support our creative people and to ensure that culture flourishes in our communities. The various programs of the initiative have helped to raise the profile of artists in our communities, build the capacity of arts and cultural organizations, and create new and upgraded cultural spaces. The effectiveness and necessity of these programs were recognized by my provincial and territorial counterparts at our most recent meeting last month in Halifax. [Translation]It cannot be denied that Tomorrow Starts Today has enabled us to achieve notable progress. All over Canada, performance halls, cultural institutions, festivals, art schools, publishing houses and theatres have received our support. The projects number in the thousands, and they have yielded extraordinary benefits in cultural as well as economic and social terms.During my appearance before the Committee of the Whole last week, I was delighted to hear members of the Opposition tell me plainly that they wanted to see this program renewed. The member for Durham, Bev Oda, even said, and I quote, “This side of the House has never indicated it does not support the program. In fact, what we want is to ensure that the maximum dollars are going to those it was intended to support.” I thank her for that statement.In fact, that is what my department has done ever since the launch of Tomorrow Starts Today. Audits conducted by independent firms prove that our programs are extremely well managed. On average, the administrative costs for all the Tomorrow Starts Today programs are slightly less than 11 percent. And we are going to continue in this direction, because we know that each dollar invested in culture is a dollar that helps to stimulate creativity, enhance the quality of life and promote economic growth.[English] Today, the cultural sector accounts for 740,000 jobs and $28 billion in economic activity. Those are remarkable statistics, especially when we recall that the Government of Canada spends an average of only $3 billion on culture. This is what is called money well invested; this is what is known as playing the role of a catalyst. I fully intend to do everything so that culture becomes a still more important pillar of economic activity and the enhancement of the quality of life in our communities. Our artists must have the means not only to create but also to reach their audiences. One of the ways they can do so is through our broadcasting system, which is one of the most popular and most powerful media for disseminating culture. In Canada, we have everything required to meet this objective. Our broadcasting system is noted for its diversity, and we must make use of it. I truly believe that our television system, whether privately or publicly operated, deserves to be taken as a model. However, the makeup of Canada's population has changed greatly, and breakthroughs in technology are transforming the world day by day. Our broadcasting system, naturally, must adapt to the new reality.(1545)[Translation]Moreover, it was this committee, when headed by Clifford Lincoln, that understood an enormous task and drafted an enlightening report on the future of the broadcasting system. This report contains 97 recommendations. Some are complex and require further reflection. Others require additional funding.Recently, your committee adopted the conclusions of the report, asking for a more detailed response from the Government. Today I wish to tell you that I support your request. I am thoroughly familiar with the content of the report since I myself contributed to it as a member of the committee. In the next few months, our Government will have the opportunity to highlight its priorities and its immediate actions on broadcasting. I will see that it does. It is important to establish priorities to improve the focus of our actions.In its response published a little more than a year go, the Government undertook to ensure that Canadian programs are watched by larger Canadian audiences, to improve management of the Canadian Television Fund and increase cooperation between the organizations and programs that seek to support the broadcasting system. I share these objectives. In this regard, in a speech that I gave in Montreal a few weeks ago before the leading figures in Quebec television and film, I undertook to work unceasingly for the renewal of funding for the Canadian Television Fund.Over the past years, the fund has shown that in attracting audiences, popularity and quality are not mutually exclusive. Since 1996, the Canadian Television Fund has put $1.7 billion into the production of 18,000 hours of programs in English, French and Aboriginal languages. The total value of these productions is $6 billion.We are soon going to examine the governance of the fund. As soon as a new director of Telefilm Canada is named, we will work together with industry leaders to find the best solution possible.[English] Also central to our broadcasting system is the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Our government has always recognized its vital role. The CBC must continue to play a key role in our efforts to have a television system that reflects our own lives. Its role is both difficult and important. It cannot simply imitate private sector television. The CBC must continue to innovate, explore, and surprise, and it must do so in circumstances of high expectations and limited resources.In the field of television, I have already taken measures concerning the question of foreign third-language services. During its study of the question, the CRTC will consider the conclusions of the expert group that I named during the summer. Your committee is also studying a bill drafted by the department to modernize and clarify the mandate of Telefilm Canada. Other challenges await us. I am thinking in particular of foreign ownership within our broadcasting system, or copyright, or part II licence fees, or Internet piracy. These are complex questions on which opinions differ, but one thing is clear: we need to show vision and go beyond merely economic concerns. A few examples come to mind.[Translation]On the issue of downloading music from the Web, ultimately it is our artists who pay the price. Besides, this morning I met some of the members of the Music in Canada Coalition, for which this is a primary issue of concern. We must give our creative people the means to be remunerated for their work. This is why the Department of Canadian Heritage is working together with the Department of Industry to modernize the Copyright Act. We must achieve a fair balance between the needs of creative people and those of consumers.I also await with impatience the findings of studies of the Senate Committee now examining the issue of media concentration. The issue has lately aroused a good deal of interest among both the public and journalists. Convergence is another issue that concerns me. We must ensure that this phenomenon does not threaten the capacity of the industry to maintain our diversity of viewpoints. Once the Senate Committee has tabled its report, probably in December, I may ask you, if you are willing, to study the issue. I'm going to do everything in my power to ensure that culture is not neglected, neither in Canada nor abroad.A debate currently drawing attention is undoubtedly that on cultural diversity. I firmly believe that each country must be able to adopt its own cultural policies and have the means to protect its own modes of expression. This is why I am committed to working for adoption of the International Convention on the Protection of the Diversity of Cultural Contents and Artistic Expressions within UNESCO. Not to protect culture is to put our souls up for auction.(1550)[English]During the meeting of Canada's ministers responsible for culture in October, I conveyed to my colleagues the significance and scope of the convention. A resolution proposed by Saskatchewan and seconded by Alberta assured me of their support. Since then, the Provinces of Newfoundland and Labrador, Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and Prince Edward Island, as well as the Territory of Yukon, have given us their views on the preliminary draft convention. As for Quebec, from the outset it has made an outstanding contribution to this issue. Last week we submitted to UNESCO the Canadian position on the preliminary draft. This is where we are; much work lies ahead.[Translation]I ask you to share with me your thoughts on the different issues that have to do with my portfolio. You will always find a receptive ear from me.We can now answer your questions, myself and the people here with me. The floor is yours.MarleneCatterallOttawa West—NepeanMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1550)[English]No, no, it was unanimous around the table on our part, but we had a dissident report from the Alliance at that time.GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonGarySchellenbergerPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1550)[English]That's why.GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonGarySchellenbergerPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1550)[English]First of all, yes, it's true. On November 6, 2003, there was a response from the department. The response, we all agree, was too short, compared to the extensive work of the committee. And you're right, I've been part of this committee for the last six months, but the committee has worked for two years.It's a very complete report, 97 recommendations. Some of them ask for additional funds. Others are complex, but it doesn't matter. It really deserves a more extensive response and we're working at it. It takes about 150 days, but we're trying to make it really shorter. So this is for the Lincoln report.Now, on the copyright report, you've asked us also to answer. We really hoped we would be able to answer you by presenting a bill. I think that would be the best answer, and we're working very hard with the Minister of Industry. My parliamentary assistant is also working extremely hard with us in order to make sure that this bill.... Of course, it's the two departments, and as you know, there are different visions in both departments, but I'd say the two ministers, the two deputy ministers, are really adamant that we at least go and meet the members of our cabinet before Christmas. So we're hopeful. If we can do so, then you will have a report, you will have what you've asked for, but we would prefer that you would be able to study the bill.GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonGarySchellenbergerPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1555)[English]First of all, we all have the same objective. I remember when I was on the committee we said we really have to move ahead, so that's why we decided to at least solve the first part, because the first part is also extremely important for either the photographers or for the music industry, which has come in front of us today. And we don't want to be delayed by the second part, but we are working both parts together, the first and the second, knowing that we have to prioritize and we really have to get going on the first part. It's not like we're working with the first to solve the first and then we're working with the second. We're working in parallel.GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1555)[Translation]Let's take a little step back. I was asked that question in question period in the House, when you only have 30 seconds to answer. So I'm pleased to be able to give you more details today. Mr. Blais, who is with us today, has been the negotiator from the outset, and he has gone through the process with Judith. So the three of us will answer the question. I'll also let Mr. Blais confirm my answer in legal terms.First, we know that the Government of Canada has been very firm since 1995. It said that culture was excluded from every treaty until the draft agreement was signed. The government has never deviated from that initial position. This shows that the Government of Canada firmly intends to say that culture cannot be negotiated at the WTO in the same way as other industrial products, such as softwood lumber or any other product. So we've decided to get organized to have an international convention. There's been a lot of talk about that with regard to La Francophonie.When I was Quebec's Minister of Culture, Mr. Toubon and I discussed the will to protect culture, but particularly Francophone culture. It was Canada that decided to say that that entire debate about La Francophonie should be taken to the international level because it concerned all countries and because it was fundamentally important that it not be a solely Francophone debate, but a global debate. That's the intention.Now we want recognition of the right of countries to implement policies that support cultural diversity, as well as the dual nature of cultural services, which have a trade value, but also a social value.However, the more we want to include countries in our global talks, the more ways there are of interpreting the notion of cultural diversity. With regard to cultural diversity, an effort was made to define culture etymologically, which encompasses ways of living, ways of acting and religious priorities, something that we, together with France, the European countries and other countries, reject. That's why we've shifted from the notion of cultural diversity to the notion of diversity of cultural expressions.There are always these attempts. When people talk about culture, we want them always to refer to the UNESCO convention. In other words, since culture is excluded from the WTO, we want the convention to prevail when people talk about culture. However, we don't want the International Convention on the Protection of the Diversity of Cultural Contents and Artistic Expressions to prevail over certain UN conventions, such as the human rights convention. We have to maintain this balance because we must not jeopardize what has been established with regard to human rights, in particular the place of women in modern society. That's what balance is.I'm going to answer other questions, and Jean-Pierre will be able to add some things.MakaKottoSaint-LambertMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1600)[Translation]Well, I'll hand over to Mr. Blais, if you come back to it.MarleneCatterallOttawa West—NepeanMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1600)[English]I don't know where you have these numbers.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayJudithLaRocque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1600)[English]That means that the Tomorrow Starts Today program, for example, cannot be projected, and funds on multiculturalism cannot be...because a lot of programs are sunsetting in 2005, and now we're working very hard to have them reinstated. JudithLaRocqueCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1600)[English]What?CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1600)[English]In answer to your question, there's no question of having flags. I'm missing flags. So there's no question of having flags floating; there's no question of having any demonstration from one province to the other. I also said very clearly that, for example, (1605)[Translation]Canada Day[English]would be equal in all the provinces, depending, of course, on the population. So there's no question of having inequity from one province to another and there is no question of cutting funds or money in programs going directly to artists. This is what we defend, this is our position and we'll defend it, and I'm sure the committee will help me to do so.JudithLaRocqueCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1605)[English]Listen, this is all pertinent to the Tomorrow Starts Today program, and we've raised this issue with our colleagues. We're saying that the Tomorrow Starts Today answer cannot wait until the budget. I'll get back to you as soon as possible, but we know the urgency is there, and the milieu knows that I know the urgency is there. CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1605)[English]I'll get back to you. I cannot prejudge what my colleagues are going to say, but what I can say is my timing is as soon as possible.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1605)[English]Again, they are on the books because the Canada Council depends on Tomorrow Starts Today, and there's $25 million. We can't project that we will have Tomorrow Starts Today because it's sunsetting. Of course, it does affect the Canada Council, but as far as the reallocation is concerned, we haven't asked the Canada Council to participate in this exercise.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1605)[English] There are two things about CBC/Radio-Canada. CBC was asked at the beginning of 2004 to participate in the billion dollar effort that the government made, so instead of transferring $60 million extra, we transferred $52 million. This year, the president of the CBC was reappointed. You met him last week or the week before. He's supposed to come back with, for the first time, what we call in French [Translation]a master plan.[English] I will sit down with the president and see the needs. Don't forget that the revenue lost by Hockey Night in Canada was a surprise to everybody, so we will have to adjust to their loss of revenue. We'll also have to adjust to the plan that he wants to present to us, and we will also adjust to the objectives of the CBC.The CBC is receiving, if you look at commercial revenue and what we are investing, about $1.3 billion for now.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1605)[English]First, one of the big priorities is the Copyright Act. This is one huge priority. Then we do have a priority on [Translation]the Broadcasting Act.[English]After the Copyright Act, we want to look at the Broadcasting Act and different issues that were mentioned in the Clifford Lincoln report, talking about[Translation]convergence,[English]because it was mentioned in the Clifford Lincoln report, and talking also about(1610)[Translation]the entire question of CRTC regulation[English]to see if the CRTC can be more flexible in its rulings, and of course the governance of the CTF. It was mentioned in the Clifford Lincoln report, and we would like to assess that, but we want to wait for the new director general of Telefilm before doing so. Also, there are all of the questions on the audiovisual side as a whole. We know that since the Clifford Lincoln report was tabled, there have been a lot of problems in the audiovisual sector, especially in the film industry and the drama industry. I will need, Madame la présidente, the collaboration of the committee, if you have time, to look at this very thoroughly and fast.ScottSimmsBonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—WindsorMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1610)[English]You've received Mr. Rabinovitch here. I'm really waiting for their plan on bringing more regional production to the Canadian population. It's not the penetration that is the problem. Apart from CPAC in French, which we are going to look at and try to make available to all Canadian people, I would say that the problem is also the interest that Canadians, mostly English Canadians, have in the CBC—though I'll not say Canadian television. The CBC has this mandate of broadcasting to all Canadians the Canadian diversity and Canadian cultural diversity. We do have to make sure that the regions are well represented within CBC.As I said, we're waiting for CBC to present its plan and to see how it will assess that, and then we'll discuss it with the president of the CBC.ScottSimmsBonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—WindsorScottSimmsBonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1615)[English]First of all, can I talk about the process, because for me it's really important, as I know the process will be discussed here? BevOdaHon.DurhamMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1615)[English]First, we are observing the Treasury Board's recommendation for the heads of those agencies à la lettre. Their board submits recommendations, but first they hire a consultant to really go through this before submitting recommendations. The purpose of the recommendations is to get the best person. Then once we have gone through the whole process with the board, it is submitted to cabinet and it comes here. This is how we manage for the heads. You'll look at it. Of the rest, who are members of boards, a lot of them are there on bénévole, so they are not paid; they are giving their time for free. We have a lot at Heritage. We're asking the board to submit names. In order to process this--I wouldn't say rapidly--efficiently, we look at the names and we make sure the names are appropriate for the kind of position.... In your evaluations, I'm going to tell you, but you'll find out, it's not easy to have people on those boards. As I said, it's free time so they have to be available, and it can take up a lot of their time. It takes a lot of generosity to be on those boards, and there are a lot of people who do not have time to do it. In the past, we have had to sometimes phone seven or eight people to get a yes. I'm telling you this so you can take it into consideration, so that the members of certain boards, museums or whatever, are not put through a very extensive and long process that could discourage them from the start. Look at it. As far as the heads of the boards are concerned, we do follow the process. Of course, there is a Telefilm nomination that will be coming very soon. It's a recommendation to cabinet, like we did with Mr. Rabinovitch. You will receive the director general of Telefilm here at the heritage committee.MarleneCatterallOttawa West—NepeanMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1615)[English]Can I just say that we don't want to suggest, in regard to those who were nominated before--and it's before us, even during the time of the Conservatives or before--that these were nominations of people who were not responsible, efficient, and whatever. I'm sure Ms. Oda wouldn't want that either.In regard to the lieutenant governors, as of April 1, 2004, the financial support provided by the department takes the form of a named grant that is issued to the lieutenant governors on an annual basis. The amount of each grant was developed using three factors: the average of their expenses over the past five years; the geographic size of their province; and their population base. The level of the grants are as follows: Newfoundland, $77,000; Nova Scotia, more--MarleneCatterallOttawa West—NepeanBevOdaHon.Durham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1620)[English] Well, that's why I'm breaking it down. When you look at the whole and you say $840,000, I have to tell that for B.C. your lieutenant governor is granted $97,000 more in order to do his job, to have his personal assistant, unless you tell us that you don't want a lieutenant governor anymore.The same with Manitoba, $73,000; Alberta, $75,000. So if you look at the whole, you say yes, it's a raise. If you break it down, Ontario, $105,000, New Brunswick, $62,000, it's not.... So as we said, it's a grant based on more specifics, and I'd say it's also more thorough than what we did before.BevOdaHon.DurhamBevOdaHon.Durham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1625)[Translation]As I told Mr. Angus, you see a cut because everything you see there is in a gradual elimination phase. It happens that that's the way it is. You'd think they were waiting for me because everything stops in 2005. The same is true for sport.That said, we've added $120 million this year for 2004-2005. I give you the allocation because I think it's worth the trouble. You're right about planning. In 2004-2005, there's $20 million for direct athlete support for the Olympic and Paralympic Games. There's $65 million for our elite athletes, $15 million for initiatives and $10 million for reception at special events.Now what you say is true. The objective is to prepare four-year budgets, as we want to do in the case of other programs, for the heritage program, among others. We're currently in budget talks. I won't tell you we aren't, because we are. I won't tell you either that there are no discussions with our colleagues as a whole, because that's what we're currently doing. I can't tell you that we'll promise you. All I can say is that our discussions are headed in that direction.MarcLemayAbitibi—TémiscamingueMarcLemayAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1625)[Translation]It's not a question of forcing. The idea is to have a plan like the one we have for the Tomorrow Starts Today program, for example. For this umbrella program, we have a comprehensive four-year plan with a certain amount that's renewed each year, but Parliament approves the budgets every year. There may be fluctuations upward or downward, but the umbrella is there.MarcLemayAbitibi—TémiscamingueMarcLemayAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1625)[Translation]Yes, but a program would have to be found for sports instead of doing it under the Tomorrow Starts Today program.MarcLemayAbitibi—TémiscamingueMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1625)[Translation]I would add that that's been done quickly. The biggest factor has been the rise in the value of the dollar. That happened very quickly, particularly this year. At the same time, some American states have adopted incentives for film production in the United States. It's true that the combination of these two factors creates a very difficult situation for us, especially in the larger cities, in British Columbia, in Toronto or Montreal.It should be kept in mind that, three years ago, we increased the foreign production tax credit for eligible production costs from 11 percent to 16 percent. We asked the provinces to follow our example. Everything was going well, and the provinces didn't follow our example. So we increased our tax credits. Some provinces have taken other measures. For example, Quebec has increased the SODEC budget. It's not providing tax credits, but direct assistance to film production as a whole. However, the provinces have not followed our example with regard to tax credits.I'd like to have an emergency meeting or conversation with my provincial partners because the situation right now is tough. I'd like to know whether they could keep the promise they made three years ago, to take measures to follow our example.That said, I also asked Jean-Pierre Blais, from my department, to form a task force to determine the best possible ways to address this situation. The situation with regard to the dollar is what it is. If we increase tax credits, that can help the industry a little. However, when the dollar is at 83¢, the situation is tough, particularly since the industry, especially the U.S. industry, anticipates that the value of the dollar will rise again. Its strategy is based on a higher dollar than what we have now.So a task force will attempt to keep foreign production here. In addition, once the president of Telefilm Canada is appointed, I want us to sit down together to see what we can do to support Aboriginal production here in Canada.Madam Chair, if the committee were to agree, and if it had the time, we could easily give it the mandate to examine the situation regarding Canadian drama program production and offer certain solutions.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1630)[Translation]We obviously benefited from an extremely low dollar. It has previously been at 63¢, whereas it now stands at 83¢. When the value of the dollar is approximately 78¢, the situation starts to get critical.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1630)[Translation]Several years ago. There was the multiculturalism policy, then the Canadian Multiculturalism Act. Then there were additions and revisions to the multiculturalism policy around 1988. The first comprehensive multiculturalism policy was drafted in 1972.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1630)[English]I'm going to tell you, it's not what they are doing more, it's that the budget was not revised for years. There is a responsibility they do have—again, unless you tell me you don't believe in lieutenant governors—they have a responsibility--MervTweedBrandon—SourisMervTweedBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1630)[English]That's the question. If we believe we need a lieutenant governor in each province, then we do have to permit them to do their own mandate. The budget has not been revised. There is inflation for everyone, and we felt the budget should be revised.MervTweedBrandon—SourisMervTweedBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1635)[English]As I said before, I'm not doubting that you feel lieutenant governors are useful in your province. The only thing I'm saying is that if they're useful, then because the budget was not revised, in order to complete their mandates they do have to have a raise.You look at the bulk. I tried to explain that if we describe the raise, province by province, it's really not much compared to what they do have to do. MervTweedBrandon—SourisMervTweedBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1635)[English]The request to the department is the same as for all other departments. It was the possibility of savings to reallocate 5% within the department.MervTweedBrandon—SourisMervTweedBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1635)[English]There are some programs, or some responsibilities, that sometimes come from other departments to ours. There is some adjustment from one department to the other, but we are not allowed to overspend.MervTweedBrandon—SourisMervTweedBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1635)[English]The main estimates are on target.What they've asked us is to find 5% on the main estimates. We've asked all the agencies, except the arts council, and we've looked within ourselves to see if we could find the 5%. I'm going to tell you, frankly, I don't think I'm going to deliver.MervTweedBrandon—SourisMervTweedBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1640)[English]We'll clarify this and the numbers with our accountants when we come back next year, but I am telling this committee that I don't intend to deliver the 5%.MervTweedBrandon—SourisMervTweedBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1640)[English]What was reported, in French, was a position that was then reported differently. What I said was, you can't ask me if we're on target, if we have funding, savings, and we overspent on one side, and on the other side say we don't want to touch anything. What I said is that in our national museums--for example, in Ottawa--there are common needs, and we've asked from the museums, in regard to the exercise of reallocation that we're discussing now, if it's possible, to combine efforts in order to have efficiencies. This is what I've said. We do not intend to touch the programs that help the 2,500 museums across Canada. I want to make this extremely clear. Also on this question—I'm repeating it because it's official—I do not intend, unless I'm forced to, to deliver 5%, nor do I intend to touch artists' programs or the help for those institutions that have very little money for what they give to society and the community.MervTweedBrandon—SourisMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1640)[English]You're right, but I just want to reassure you that it is because of Tomorrow Starts Today. As I said, the sunsetting programs are not in there, so that's why. It's not accounted for, and we couldn't put it in there because they're not renewed.WajidKhanMississauga—StreetsvilleWajidKhanMississauga—Streetsville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1640)[English]As far as the ownership per se is concerned, it's very hard to...CRTC takes the decision, and it's true, that there are now big media conglomerates; it's a trend of the industry. This said, if we refer to the Lincoln report, what is an issue is the diversity of voice, and this is really the key issue.We know that Senator Joan Fraser is working on this committee too and acknowledges the diversity of voices and how we can help this diversity or make sure we have this, so that we don't have an editorial, for example, in one province that is, in essence, the same editorial all over Canada. We have two or three conglomerates and three kinds of opinions and that's it.We're waiting for the report of Madame Joan Fraser, and we'll assess it and we'll discuss it within our department and bring forward the elements of the discussion. If the committee wants to add to what the Senate committee has done, it would be really welcome. Again, ownership is one thing, but diversity of voice is another.WajidKhanMississauga—StreetsvilleWajidKhanMississauga—Streetsville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1645)[English]First of all, no. We do have help outside of Quebec. Are we helping all of them? Are we helping enough? Do we have enough money to help all of them? The answer is, well, we have to make choices. But the answer is if you want to help everybody, no. I want to reassure you that we are helping. We're talking about 190 projects that represent $2 million, with the Tomorrow Starts Today program, when we talk about francophone communities hors Quebec.In cultural spaces, for example, we did help. It doesn't answer to your groups, and this we can talk about specifically later. Okay?CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1645)[English]As far as Espaces culturels is concerned, 60% of Espaces culturels Canada goes to rural Canada, and then in rural Canada we do touch on the francophone community.[Translation]There's Maison Gabrielle-Roy in Saint-Boniface, La Maison des arts de Russell in Embrun, Ontario, Salle Mathieu-Duguay in New Brunswick and Les Araignées du boui-boui in Church Point, Nova Scotia. We touch on that.[English]With the Tomorrow Starts Today program, with the arts presentation, with cultural spaces, with official languages, we really try, but like everywhere else, some projects fit and others don't. It all depends on the years. But we'll discuss the issue specifically.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1645)[English]Like I said, it's going to be a very open process. You are going to study it. The only thing about it—Madame Oda knows this—is that at the CRTC we also need some very technically qualified people a lot of times—and I'm not saying they're not qualified now.For example, the CRTC is handling two sectors. They're handling telecom. For telecom, for part of the nominations of the CRTC board, half of the board is telecom. For telecom, we need specialized, qualified people. As far as broadcasting is concerned, what we're trying to do is get people who know the creative milieu, but who also know the broadcasting sector, if it's possible to find them.I have to tell you that we were the first to nominate...you talk about partisan nomination. It hurts me when you say that, and I'm going to tell you why. Look at Peter Herrndorf. He was nominated by the government, and I think his is a really good nomination. Look at the nominations that were done before. For some of them, you can say they were not adequate perhaps, but it's a total of nominations done by governments. There are a lot of people who gave a lot of their time and their efforts, put their knowledge into those organizations, and who were very good nominations. A nomination that we've done, (1650)[Translation]to the Copyright Board...[English]How do you say that in English?CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayJudithLaRocque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1650)[English]The copyright commission.It was the first time we had somebody, Madame Francine Bertrand-Venne, who came from SPACQ, who represented the artists and the creators.So we do have that concern, and we'll continue to have that concern and try to put the creators in the centre of our concern all the time when it's possible.JudithLaRocqueCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1650)[English]There are seven nominations now available at the CBC. There were recommendations from Madame Taylor, who comes from broadcasting and was a really well-known broadcaster. I think you're having the board of the CBC in next week, so you can discuss that with Madam Taylor. She's a very knowledgeable, respectable person in broadcasting. There are seven nominations, seven appointments or reappointments. Let's make sure that for those reappointments there are people there who are able to understand the content and what public television is all about.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1650)[English]Not cut, I'm sorry. When you say “cut” and you send those messages to the milieux, it's not fair. We talk about reallocation. Cuts were done before, when the economic situation was so bad in 1984-85. Those were cuts, because we didn't have a choice because our debt was 68% of the total of the GDP.JamesBezanSelkirk—InterlakeJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1650)[English] Reallocation, yes.JamesBezanSelkirk—InterlakeJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1650)[English]No, I'm not saying I'm going to have trouble; I'm just saying I do not want to cut. I do not want to make a reallocation. I do not want to play with a budget concerning artists, sports, and the milieux that really need it.JamesBezanSelkirk—InterlakeJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1650)[English]I will discuss it with the persons responsible for delivering the reallocation.JamesBezanSelkirk—InterlakeJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1655)[English]Thank you for the question. I clarified it before you came in, but I really want to have it clarified.What I said in French was that the milieux I'm talking about are film, production, music, the artists, some of whom you met today. They get nervous when you talk about reallocation and savings, and rightfully so. We're talking about those big agencies and institutions that we have, and what I said was that it's easier to ask our museums—I said “museums”, but I should have said “national museums” here in Ottawa—to try to put their needs in common and see if there would be a savings there. I'm talking about the Museum of Civilization, the National Gallery, the Library and Archives Canada, just to see if there can be savings administratively.JamesBezanSelkirk—InterlakeJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1655)[English]I want to make this quite clear. I spoke to Mr. McAvity, the president of the Canadian Museums Association, about it, and I was talking about the national museums administratively. Thank you for the question. In my head is was quite clear, but I said in French, “les musées”.JamesBezanSelkirk—InterlakeJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1655)[English]First of all, when you say this was uncertain, this is not true. You'll never see me say this is a certainty or say it's being done if I don't have the budget to do it on paper. If I have the agenda to do it, then I'll say, yes, we're going for it. This is the way I work. I have to tell you that I really believe in this project, sincerely, with all my heart. We know we have more than 300,000 portraits within the archives that Canadians should see. They're kept within the vaults of the archives, so this would be a fantastic gift to Canadians. We're working at it now, but we need $8 million for completion. We have to build an addition to the embassy for it to be completed. But I'm adamant about having this done, because it's a fantastic project.JamesBezanSelkirk—InterlakeMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1700)[English]You're right. In 1997-98, the Canada Council benefited from a $60 million raise, so it was raised to a certain level. Saying that, it's really imperative that we get Tomorrow Starts Today, because $25 million of the Tomorrow Starts Today money goes to the Canada Council.As far as the Canada Council anniversary is concerned, we're looking at it. I can't make an announcement today, but we're very aware of the situation. We would like to give the Canada Council a recognition for everything it has done.Coming back to nominations, I also have to admit that we made a governmental nomination of Madame Karen Kain, who is now the president of the Canada Council.So for all the work that everybody at the Canada Council did and has done, we're working to give the Canada Council a recognition. And I'm not saying just a verbal recognition, but a recognition of what they've been doing, and I know I have very good advocates to do so.On Tomorrow Starts Today, yes, what's important now is to get the funding we had last year in order to give the signal, before the budget, to the milieux that really have to plan their production, their shows for spring and for summer, for 2005. That's why we're now asking for the base funding, and then we'll work toward the budget.As far as the task force is concerned, I have to admit that because you told me that, we know there's an urgency, and an urgency even more in English Canada than in French Canada. Because we had this conversation, I've asked Mr. Blais to look at it, but we'll really do it together. Look at the report on TV yesterday. The problem is, again, that the $83 is really hurting us. We gave a tax benefit three years ago, so will we compensate with tax benefits, or are we going to look at indigenous production in order to stabilize, if you want, the milieu? These are all the questions we have to ask ourselves, so I'll get back to you with that.SarmiteBulteHon.Parkdale—High ParkSarmiteBulteHon.Parkdale—High Park//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1700)[English] We have all that, Madam Chair, so it's a pleasure. We really have it, so we'll do it fast. MarleneCatterallOttawa West—NepeanMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1705)[English]Quick answers?GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonGarySchellenbergerPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1705)[English]I hate it when you say that, “quick answers”, because this is not the quickest. As far as the recommendation to have stable funding for the CBC is concerned, the answer is yes. I signed the report, so the answer is yes. Now, how do we get to it? You know the CBC had an amount of $60 million annually for three years and then it sunsetted. I'll just say we are going to look at the possibility to stabilize the CBC. For the rest, I'll have to say I am waiting for Mr. Rabinovitch's plan. Of course, there is the $100 million. No, it was $52 million. It was $60 million basically, but the contribution to $1 billion made it $52 million. The initial objective was $60 million. Now, on needing $40 million more, we're saying we'll try to do better regionally, and then we'll work for the plan and we'll analyze the plan to make sure the $40 million is going to be used to do so. Is it possible to do so? CBC lost a lot of ground regionally. CTV took up all that ground, so you have to see now if it's realistic to say $40 million will give CBC the grounds to recoup what they have lost, or whether we need this money. I know Mr. Rabinovitch is reflecting on whether we should take this money and have more regional content to reach the interests of people regionally. We'll discuss it with Mr. Rabinovitch, and I know you'll have more conversations with him. As for Tomorrow Starts Today, you're right, and we're working very hard on the amount to be announced before budget, and because of the planning of the Stratford Festival. And what was the other question?GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonGarySchellenbergerPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1705)[English]We're talking about $1.3 billion. I have to tell you that I lived at Radio-Canada for four years.GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonGarySchellenbergerPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1705)[English]Of course. Canadians are spending today $29 per person a year to pay for the CBC. Mr. Rabinovitch told you that. He told you that if you look at the U.K., we're talking about approximately $163 per person, or $55 million, to pay for the BBC. Of course, if you have more, you do more.GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonGarySchellenbergerPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1710)[English]For the small museums, people come in under Cultural Spaces Canada, and there are certain other programs, like the museums assistance program. For Cultural Spaces, it depends on the program and what kind of museum it is, but there's also museum assistance, so they come toward museums assistance. This is one.Second, yes, the Auditor General last year was really very severe in her evaluation of the archives. We've answered that, and I'll let Madame LaRocque tell you what they've done since before even my arrival.GarySchellenbergerPerth—WellingtonJudithLaRocque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1710)[Translation]The answer is yes.Why isn't it written down? You can call it a starting strategy. It shouldn't be forgotten that this is our first effort, our first response to a preliminary draft of the convention.Canada has its official rapporteur and is also an observer--we've managed to win those positions--of UNESCO's reaction to the draft legislation. We're going to gather countries' reactions to the draft legislation, and we're on the spot. We have powerful tools, as it were, that we would like to keep. The answer, without a doubt, is yes.Mr. Blais, would you like to add anything?MakaKottoSaint-LambertJean-PierreBlais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1715)[English]First of all, we'll answer that with the copyright law. We want to assess that within the copyright bill, to start off with. The industry association is talking about $425 million that they are losing due to des téléchargements. Of course, it is a complex issue that we will have to address when we look at the copyright bill, absolutely.ScottSimmsBonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—WindsorScottSimmsBonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1715)[English]As I said, we are writing the bill now with the industry department. You'll have the vote. You're talking about equilibrium. You'll have the vote opinion, and that's why we have to put our differences aside. We are writing the bill now. Our schedule is to present it to members of cabinet before Christmas, and we're really trying hard. That means that if everything goes well, you'll be able to look at and study the bill next session.ScottSimmsBonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—WindsorScottSimmsBonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1715)[English]First of all, the Montreal film festival, as you know, is on July 27, under Telefilm and SODEC. It's their decision and their financing. The will for financing it or not comes from Telefilm and SODEC. BevOdaHon.DurhamBevOdaHon.Durham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1720)[English]Yes, it is.BevOdaHon.DurhamBevOdaHon.Durham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1720)[English]You know what? I have to tell you I know the dossier quite well because it was the same dossier when I was Minister of Culture in Quebec. In 1994, we asked for a study—we didn't have the SODEC; I was building the SODEC—on Telefilm on the same basis: lack of transparency, all the reasons we have.Saying that Telefilm is not an independent body is not right. Telefilm is independent. I cannot ask Telefilm to fund something or not, or employ somebody or not, whatever. They work as an independent body. It is independent. That's one.Two, Telefilm will take a decision. There's one commitment that we can make to Montrealers—and we're Montrealers here, Maka and myself—and it is that Montreal will have a festival that is pertinent to Montreal, and that is, as we say in French, digne de Montréal. The current administration could apply. The current administration was also asked either to give some answers or make an association with others, but they rejected everything.This is a particular context of a body that I know extremely well. This is for Telefilm. We are committed, for Montreal, that Montreal will have a film festival. We started the film festival. Being from Montreal, I do not intend the film festival to die, I know Telefilm and SODEC do not intend to see the festival die, and the Minister of Culture of Quebec does not intend to see the film festival die in Montreal.Now, on the second one, it's true it's a grant, and do you know what? We have beefed up the controls, because now we're in the mode of controlling the controllers, over who controls. This is the mode now.Now we're working with Treasury Board, and I hope everybody, including the Conservative Party, will support us in working with them to adapt the control mode to our milieu. We're asking for ourselves or for the cultural milieu to have the same control when there are about two or three people working in the association, the same way in which we're asking for controls in those big companies that have I don't know how many vice-presidents and accountants working for them. It's not fair.BevOdaHon.DurhamMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1720)[Translation]It's now officially under appeal.MarcLemayAbitibi—TémiscamingueMarcLemayAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1720)[Translation]The notice of appeal has been filed. It's done. Thank you for asking me the question because I'm pleased to say it. I'm telling the industry that the Minister of Justice has officially appealed from the decision.MarcLemayAbitibi—TémiscamingueMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1720)[English]I thank you.MarleneCatterallOttawa West—NepeanMarleneCatterallOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla (Minister responsible for Status of Women): (1105)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I have with me Jackie Claxton, who is in charge of all the programs. If you need any detailed explanation, Jackie is here. Of course, Florence Ievers is here. You've met Florence; she's in charge of the department. Nanci-Jean Waugh is here. Nanci was also with Madam Finestone at the time. So I have very experienced people with me. It's an honour, Madame la présidente, and all of you, to speak to you today. I'm very pleased that the Standing Committee on the Status of Women has been established. It provides a parliamentary forum for advancing the future development of gender equality, and it will be a beacon to guide Parliament.(1110)[Translation]Further, the Standing Committee exemplifies this government's commitment to ensuring the human rights and equality of all Canadians. It reaches across party lines. And it brings us together for work we all care deeply about—that of advancing gender equality. Gender equality is everybody's business—inside and outside government, in non-governmental organizations and in the private sector. It is a partnership process.As minister, my role is one of leadership, to champion, across government, our forward-looking strategy and our current focus—the Agenda for Gender Equality. Together, we are working to implement our strategy, which has the following objectives.[English]The objectives are to engender new policies and programs, to accelerate the implementation of gender-based analysis across government, to engage Canadians in the policy-making process, to meet Canada's international commitments, and to enhance voluntary sector capacity. In meeting these objectives, Status of Women Canada and I remain squarely focused on our ongoing key priorities of improving women's economic autonomy, eliminating violence against women, and advancing women's human rights. Status of Women Canada meets these priorities by acting as a catalyst on gender issues, engendering key policies across government. For example, over the years Status of Women Canada has collaborated with departments responsible for justice, health, employment, social development, immigration, and statistics. These partnership efforts have resulted in improvements to family law, child support, Criminal Code amendments, taxation, employment and pay equity, immigration legislation, and the evidence base needed for policy development in all areas.[Translation] It is a work in progress. Much has been accomplished, but we still have a long way to go in achieving women's human rights and full gender equality for all.Canada is a world leader in advancing gender equality and women's human rights. We have in place a solid foundation of legal commitments and obligations, both domestically and internationally, which underpin and facilitate our ongoing efforts to advance gender equality, at home and around the world. Indeed, Canada has one of the world's best legal frameworks for equality, and one of the longest-standing systems of government machinery for the advancement of equality for women. Together, they constitute invaluable forms of accountability—a legal framework that ensures Canada remains on target in the journey toward equality for all.[English]Canada has entrenched such key equality-building legislation as the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Canadian Human Rights Act. Status of Women Canada is also an actor on the world stage, promoting and negotiating the integration of a gender perspective to advance women's equality in international organizations. For example, Canada played a key role in the development of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, CEDAW, adopted at the United Nations in 1979. Canada ratified CEDAW in 1981 and presented its last report in 2003. Often described as an international bill of rights for women, the convention sets up a standard for nations to eradicate discrimination against women. Canada was also instrumental in developing the more recent optional protocol to CEDAW, a further accountability mechanism.(1115)[Translation]While Canada has been a world leader in gender equality, and a role model for other countries, there is still work to do. In 2003, following Canada's presentation to the CEDAW Committee, the committee made recommendations to Canada, highlighting the need for further action in certain areas, particularly the high rates of poverty among women, the situation of Aboriginal women and the application of gender-based analysis. We have taken measures to address the issues the CEDAW Committee raised. For example, economic measures include compassionate care leave, an increased investment in the Canada Child Tax Benefit to $9 billion by 2004, and the government's pledge to build a national system of child care and early learning, using $5 billion to create 250,000 new spaces by 2009 in English Canada. [English] Measures to address the issue of violence against women include the introduction of legislation to strengthen the protection of children and the addition of a trafficking offence to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to help address the serious crime of trafficking in humans, particularly women and girls, who are more vulnerable. In developing a number of these measures, the use of gender-based analysis provided information and data that proved invaluable to policy- and decision-makers. In 2005, ten years after women met in Beijing to draft the Platform for Action, they will gather again, this time in New York, at a meeting known as Beijing+10. There they will evaluate progress made on the Platform for Action.[Translation]The Bejing+10 process represents a critical opportunity for exchange among representatives of the international community, including governments, non-governmental organizations and experts, on experiences and challenges in achieving results in gender equality.Along with other countries, Canada will highlight best practices in implementing the Beijing Platform for Action and other commitments. Canada will also highlight the challenges, such as high rates of poverty among certain groups of women, discrimination Aboriginal women face and the need to improve accountability for gender equality.In Canada, the situation of women has evolved significantly. For example, the growth of women's employment has contributed to Canadian society. Women have joined the labour force in growing numbers, from 42 per cent in 1976 to 56.4 per cent in 2002. This is closer to the employment rate for men, which was 67.4 per cent in 2002. The incidence of low income among single mothers, after tax, has dropped from over 49 per cent in 1997 to 38.7 per cent in 2002. [English]The incidence of low income among lone mothers, after tax, has dropped from 49% in 1997 to 38.7% in 2002. Women are also a fast-growing segment of self-employed workers and entrepreneurs in Canada.[Translation]Women own close to half of small- and medium-sized enterprises. They provide jobs for almost two million people in Canada. By 2000, women earned about 70 cents for every dollar men earned, shrinking a wage gap that 20 years ago had women earning about 52 cents for every dollar men earned. [English]In spite of gains such as these, work remains to be done. Women continue to do the lion's share of unpaid work, such as caregiving and household work--fully two-thirds, a rate that is almost the same as it was over 30 years ago. Women's incomes are slowly improving, but the increase is mainly due to the fact that they are devoting more time to paid work. [Translation]Women are still concentrated in the infamous “pink ghetto”, in occupations that have always been female-dominated. Women who are self-employed and have insecure work have limited access to measures like maternity benefits, to help them balance work and family responsibilities. Violence and discrimination against women, based on gender, race, sexual orientation and other factors, are persistent challenges, and we are continuing to work to eliminate them. (1120)[English] Such factors as age, race, ethnicity, family status, sexual orientation, immigrant status, and aboriginal status also affect women's economic status. For example, aboriginal women are concentrated disproportionately in lower-skilled and lower-paying occupations and have lower rates of unemployment in the wage economy than do aboriginal men or non-aboriginal women. They also tend to have higher rates of lone parenthood than do non-aboriginal women.[Translation]In September 2003, the Federal-Provincial and Territorial Ministers Responsible for the Status of Women made Aboriginal women, both on and off reserve, a priority. In September 2004, they focused attention on violence prevention for Aboriginal women, agreeing to take action in such areas as access to programs and services, public education and awareness, capacity-building and policy enhancement, addressing the respective priorities and needs of Aboriginal women across Canada.Status of Women Canada has also committed to using its Family Violence Initiative allocation of $1 million over four years to support initiatives of Aboriginal women's organizations working on violence against Aboriginal women. In particular, these initiatives include access to programs and services, public education and policy development. [English]In the face of all these challenges, we need more women in elected decision-making positions. But there is no critical mass of women in the House of Commons, as we know. Right now we're at 21% of the House of Commons. That's up from 10% in 1987 and 18% in 1995. Critical mass is generally believed to occur at around the 30% mark. We still have a way to go before we achieve critical mass, and even further before 50% representation seems possible, which would more accurately reflect the female share of population numbers.Clearly, the full picture of the status of women in Canada and in the world presents key opportunities and challenges for the standing committee--the opportunity to build on our successes and the challenge to advance equality in areas where discrimination and disadvantage persist. There remains the urgent need to continue to mainstream gender in all areas of the government through programs, services, and legislation. We must also continue to develop accountability mechanisms for our gender equality commitments to ensure that we have meaningful goals and measurable results. That includes working with other government departments to create building blocks that advance women's equality, laying the foundation for a future where equality is a reality for all and where no one is left behind.[Translation]The work of this committee will contribute to our efforts to mainstream gender across government. The committee provides a forum within Parliament for identifying and discussing existing and emerging issues, sharing experiences, insights and ideas, and determining what courses of action to pursue. The challenge before us is clear—we must increase our efforts in all areas of gender equality work. And we must do so with accountability and measurable results as our watchwords. Only by being open, transparent, and results-oriented can we ensure better cross-government coordination of gender equality-building measures. We must learn from our experience and successes in other areas, such as climate change or the plan of action for children, where horizontal coordination has proved successful. We can also learn from other countries that have achieved success where we are still challenged. [English]It's fitting, therefore, that early in this new session of Parliament, the Standing Committee on the Status of Women is getting under way, helping to unite the voices of Canadians in a common purpose, on their journey towards real and lasting equality in the interest of all--women, men, and children, who are our future.I would like to congratulate all of you for being on this committee, and Madame la présidente, my congratulations goes to you as well.Thank you.AnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South CentreAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1125)[English]If you permit me, I will go from French to English. I'll try to assess it in French, but sometimes it's hard for the translator to go from one to the other. When I can't find a word in English and I revert to French, they have trouble following me.When addressing the issue of violence against women and girls, we include trafficking. Here in Canada, I think this is really one of our priorities. When we were in St. John's, I was with Madam la présidente at the federal-provincial-territorial meeting, and this was one of our priorities. Of course, now we try to focus our programs on violence. For example, we disbursed almost $4 million in grants to organizations in Canada that work to address the root cause of violence. It's $4 million out of a $10.5 million contribution that we give every year, and this is general. Our focus is really on violence because everywhere we go, at all international forums, there's gender equality, poverty, and violence. Usually, it's violence, gender equality, and poverty.We can say that we're contributing, but of course it is systemic. We can't do it alone. We are helping groups to contravene violence in the milieu, but there's the Department of Justice also. There are justice programs to address that specifically with a gender-based analysis on what they're doing in Justice to contravene violence against women.We also have committed $1 million over four years to family violence initiatives to support organizations working to address the issue of violence against aboriginal women. You'll tell me it's not enough, and I agree, but we're also working with the Department of Justice and the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to develop a whole program specifically targeted to violence against aboriginal women.You have to understand that our committee is a vertical committee. We're there to coordinate. We don't have specific authority over the others, but we are now developing tools to coordinate and to make gender equality and gender issues more and more present in the analysis of their programs. Justice is doing quite well. Immigration is another example that is doing really well. We're working now with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada on all the questions involving unemployment. I'm digressing, but only to tell you that we are horizontal. Half of our programs go towards violence, but then again, we have to also induce the others to follow the trend.NinaGrewalFleetwood—Port KellsAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1130)[English] First of all, on our side, we do general statistics on violence, but I know that Justice has a provision to also analyze this kind of crime and situation. I know it affects us all. I know that in my riding I had a couple of cases just last year, and I know that in all your ridings.... Every time we women hear this, it makes us freak out. But this is more pertinent to the justice department. We are there to work with Justice so that they acknowledge it as an emergency, if you want. But as far as their analysis and their targeted action specifically toward homicide is concerned, that is really their core responsibility.Do you want to add something, Florence?HelenaGuergisHon.Simcoe—GreyFlorenceIevers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1130)[English]I forgot to tell you that the last federal-provincial meeting was in St. John's about a month and half or two months ago. All the provinces were there, including your province; everybody was represented there. We said, okay, our main goal is to combat la violence; defeating violence is our main goal. We are organizing the next fed-prov meeting with our Minister of Justice with us. It is true that Justice has to adapt, but there are also a lot of provincial responsibilities. That's why we're saying that we'll do it all together, and we'll bring our Minister of Justice with us specifically to discuss that issue.FlorenceIeversAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1135)[Translation]Whenever we have travelled to meet these groups, this is a comment we heard repeatedly, not only about the status of women but in other areas as well, particularly official languages. The purpose of the changes made in 1998 were to make the rules of the game fairer by eliminating the two categories of groups. Groups in one category would receive operational funding. Groups in the other category would obtain funding only on a project basis. Since the budget is limited, many groups would submit excellent projects but would have their applications automatically refused because the funding they needed would have to be taken out of allocations made to other groups. In 1998, we decided that, rather than funding only 118 groups, we would simply fund projects and make it possible for more grassroots organizations to have access to public funding. When we fund projects, groups can include part of their operating costs within that funding. We don't fund operations, but we do fund some operating costs by funding a project. As a result of the change, more groups had access to funding, and more work was done in communities. We will be conducting a review in 2004-2005, and we will be looking at relevance and cost-effectiveness.I should point out that consultations were carried out before we made the changes. A number of groups complained, saying that the set up was like an elite club, that the same groups always had access to funding, that they did a lot of work as well but never received any money. These things are difficult to manage.We plan to submit a report to you at the end of 2005, and at that point we will be in a position to determine whether the changes were good, what their results have been, whether positive measures have been taken, and whether remedial measures are necessary. PauleBrunelleTrois-RivièresPauleBrunelleTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1135)[Translation]We provide what we call contributions, so we need to have oversight and a report. Groups don't necessarily like the oversight, but we follow Treasury Board rules and we have to apply very stringent monitoring that is often difficult for organizations like these. I've seen it with women's groups and Canadian heritage groups. These organizations sometimes employ two people working for $19,000 a year, who have to fill out form after form to meet monitoring requirements. This monitoring is much like that imposed on major corporations, who have 12 vice-presidents and 18 full-time accountants. At present, we are working with Treasury Board to see whether we could, without upsetting the Auditor General, improve monitoring methods in order to adapt them more effectively to these grassroots organizations.PauleBrunelleTrois-RivièresAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1140)[Translation]At Beijing+10, we plan to assess to what extent each country has complied, on a national scale, with the requirements in the declaration and Platform for Action adopted in 1995 and reviewed in 2000.We will be presenting our own action plan, as well as our achievements. We will be talking about statistics that I will provide to you—statistics on poverty among women, aboriginal women and our gender-based analysis. We will also highlight the action plans we intend to implement to meet needs.As I was saying, we and the departments of Indian Affairs and Justice are working on an integrated plan for aboriginal women. Frequently, international organizations like the UN—I've already seen this at Social Development—have difficulty in seeing exactly how a country works. It is a matter of jurisdictions, and it is difficult for them to analyze the management of responsibilities. Let's say we want to compare Canada and France, and France decides to set up a national day care system. No problem—France implements a national day care system. If France decides to implement a program to prevent violence against women... As we were saying about homicides, provincial security is an area of provincial jurisdiction, while some components of justice are also areas of provincial jurisdiction. These are areas of shared jurisdiction. That can make things difficult. When international organizations do their studies, we have to help them understand how our country, which is a decentralized federation, works. So, at Beijing+10, it is important to say that we are not alone in working on a plan to prevent violence against women. We are working with the provinces. FranceBonsantCompton—StansteadAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1140)[English]Thank you. I appreciate that very much.First of all, you're right to say that you can't look at the status of women in our department only. I'll come back to our department in a few seconds.The last department I had was social development, which is great because social development, having been divided since December.... Having a full-fledged department called social development is I think a big plus. I'm not speaking for...because I've become really quite attached to this department since we started it.We now see all the social measures, not just the big HRDC, which was so huge that the social development part was lost; the focus was usually on employment--unemployment insurance and certain opportunities or problems that emanate from that.Social development, for example, has national childhood and child care. We also have the early childhood development. Those are initiatives that are there specifically to answer to...families, yes, but they're also really adapted to women.Now, the national childhood program implemented by my colleague Ken Dryden also helps women. I know that monoparentalité...women, often being the sole supporters of their children, really need that support. I know that. Then again, it's shared responsibility. The provinces also have to be on board. That's why, with Ken Dryden and Lucien Robillard, they're negotiating with the provinces, because the provinces have to be as enthused as we are and feel the necessity as much as we all do.In health, first of all, there is the new public health and safety agency that has been formed. We know that for women prevention is key--to osteoporosis, to everything. So we have to talk about prevention, because once you're sick you're at the same level as everybody else. It has to be adapted to women's health. In Health there is a specific part of the department that is focusing on health issues for women.Justice is the same. It would be a help if you could have my colleague, Irwin Cotler, talk about what he's doing in targeting violence, violence against women and children. There are also all the human resource and unemployment issues. There are measures; there could be more. So it would probably be useful for the committee to have those colleagues talk about that too.It would be useful for us too, as we're trying to coordinate the action for all the departments, to have them appear in dialogue with the committee so we won't feel we have the unique responsibility within the government.Now, for us specifically, we have $23.9 million. This is our credit--knowing that we share responsibilities. Of this $23.9 million, $10.8 million, 45%, is allocated for grants to the women's program; $11.6 million is allocated for operating expenditures, and the remaining $1.5 million is allocated to contributions to the employee benefit plan.The $11.6 million supports the work of 131 people, 7 directorates, and 15 regional offices. There's $1.2 million for the policy research fund; $5.5 million for key functional operations, the research directorate; $3.2 million for the women's program and regional operations; $1.5 million for policy and external relations; and $0.5 million for gender-based analysis. There's $4.9 million for corporate services and consultation and communication. (1145)The thing is, we're horizontal. Now we have $20.8 million allocated for grants for women's programs. Tomorrow we could have $30 million, $40 million, $50 million, $60 million allocated for grants. The operational cost doesn't grow. To do the coordination, to do the research, to be involved in the region and have our regional department people there, there are some operational costs.On the $10.8 million allocated for grants, $4 million goes to organizations in the field that are focused on eliminating violence.RussPowersAncaster—Dundas—Flamborough—WestdaleAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1150)[English] First of all, the document is a strategy, and this is what we're aiming at. When we sit down and say, what did we do....(1155)[Translation]We are assessing ourselves.[English]We ask ourselves questions, and we have to say that between 1995 and 2000 the implementation of the gender-based analysis was slow because of the lack of resources and the lack of funds. There was no obligation to report and we didn't have the authority or leverage to ensure compliance. That's why in 2000 the government reacted and said, enough of this, we can't refer to all the documents without giving some funds at least to be able to work. Funds of $20.5 million were given in 2000 over five years. What did we do in 2000? We customized training to go case by case. We developed and delivered the training. The train the trainer program was developed in both official languages. We have a specialized resource centre, case studies, and an e-bulletin. We also produced 8,000 information kits. There was the creation of a self-assessment tool for organizations to determine the GBA capacity and the creation of a tool to measure the impact of GBA on policy development and gender equality outcomes. Once we had the tools, we could go to organizations and communicate that we did have the tools. We went to the departments and started to work with them, saying it's not our sole responsibility. A GBA analysis is a governmental responsibility; it's not only us. In terms of the accountability measures now, we're monitoring departmental GBA activities via an interdepartmental committee, and we have periodic surveying; we're encouraging outcome-based pilot projects with measurable resources versus only training; and we evaluate the mechanism tied to the information kit and the training delivered. Now that we have developed the kit, we have the interdepartmental committee watching departmental activity with trained people in the departments. Future direction. We want the GBA to be an obligation. We have that in Quebec and we would like to apply that in the government. It's an obligation tied to an overall gender equality accountability framework, including a formal reporting mechanism. This would be the ideal. This is what we're aiming for.There are two ways of working. You can oblige or you can convince. We're in the convincing mode. Why? Because it's much stronger to convince and have everybody feel an obligation to do it because they are convinced this is the right way to do it. I revert back to my previous experience, and I know in other provinces, not only in Quebec, this is what happened. Now it's automatic. We're not forcing...it's not departments saying, we have to do this analysis. It's automatic and within the way of doing things. All the programs are analyzed through gender-based analysis, and it's done. All the departments have one person accountable for it. It is done automatically. Nobody was forced. At one point in time, because of the demands from the grassroots, the government felt that was the right thing to do.JeanCrowderNanaimo—CowichanAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1200)[English] I would like to do this analysis and come back to you. I'll ask Florence to answer this, but I'd like to come back to it and really assess this within the government, because aboriginal issues are spread out. It's also a vertical issue, so it's spread out all over government, and it's hard for us. If I tell you that for us, yes, there is this $1 million working specifically with aboriginal groups, working on violence...$1 million is not much, but this is our contribution, plus within the $4 million targeted to violence, a lot of it is targeted to aboriginal women's issues. Our budget for contributions is $10.8 million, so I can tell you that half of the budget goes to at least issues on violence, and I'd say that half of the half at least goes to aboriginal women's issues. We do have within the heritage department $2 million for aboriginals living off reserve. I do have a certain responsibility. Is it violence? No, it's global issues, but to know what is allocated in the aboriginal affairs ministry and what is in Justice we would have to make a count to say what is really focused on violence. Florence, do you want to add to that?HelenaGuergisHon.Simcoe—GreyFlorenceIevers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1200)[English]We have this process called reallocation. It is a process that is imposed on all of us, to look at all our programs. The objective that Revenue and Finance gave us was that we have to find 5% in all the programs, in all the organizations we have. We have to find 5%, put it on the table, and then prove to everybody that we need it back.Why do we do this? In certain departments, of course, it's a little bit more complicated than in others, because our department, the whole global heritage department, has a lot of organizations, and also we reach out. We do have stakeholders directly, compared to others. We don't work either with the provinces developing policies or where others are responsible. We are responsible, so we see the consequences of a cut, a non-cut, or adding to the budget.In this case, we have to do the same process. We've done our homework, and I believe in doing that kind of homework because we have a lot of programs. It's fine to say we'll analyze all the programs that we're into, but we're asking all the organizations that depend on us, like the Conseil des Arts, Patrimoine, or whatever, to do their homework and tell us if all the programs work. If yes, fine. If no, tell us, and we either revert or we cancel.This is how we function. We have to do it, and it's a discipline the government wants us to have every year, so that we can question ourselves. Honestly, between you and me, we do it all the time because we dispense a lot of programs, and we don't want to have la vérificatrice générale coming and saying we've missed this and that, because it's not fun.With the overall, it can and it will happen, but we try to be as efficient as possible, so this is a discipline that we impose on ourselves in Heritage. It's easier perhaps for us than it is for others, but we've done it, and I have to admit that while now we're pleading our case saying that we don't want to have groups cut...we don't need those cuts, really, but that's the case and we do have to plead. It's within the government, though. I'm not the only one, because others are pleading the same thing. That's the stage we're at. Of course, if we had more, we'd do more.SusanKadisThornhillSusanKadisThornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1205)[English]I'm going to tell you that if you're talking about funds, of course, there's capacity and there are other departments that will come with demands. I'm just looking at Social Development, where he's demanding $5 billion. That $5 billion goes directly, I'd say, to families and women, so we have to take this into account too. For our whole department, of course, if you have more, you do more. Do we say yes to everybody? In all of your ridings, you know how many demands we have. We accept some, but we have to refuse others, and sometimes we're really heart-broken about it. But where do you stop? In those kinds of issues, [Translation]the demand is neverending.SusanKadisThornhillSusanKadisThornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1210)[English]Oh, we're making the case, but the committee could make the case also.SusanKadisThornhillSusanKadisThornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1210)[English]First of all, the case is made by not only.... There's a committee, a women's caucus, as you know, and I'm sure your women's caucus is very adamant in this. We have to make the case in two things. First of all, gender-based analysis is not only a discipline, as I said, an obligation, but gender-based analysis should be enthusiastically applied in all departments. I really put an emphasis on “enthusiastically”. This is the objective I really am adamant for. Here's something that you have to...as we do with official languages. We do it with official languages. We have the responsibility--part of the responsibility--for official languages, and it's done. So we should do exactly the same as a government and be happy to do it. This is one.Two, as far as resources, we also have to look at the entire government action. Since we fund organizations doing things in the milieu--we're not the only ones, because there are other departments, and again, the social development department has a community program, but for us specifically, we fund organizations in the entire milieu. That's what we're pleading, saying the demands are there. They're doing wonders, and much better than a government can do.As you said, these are the best people to do so. They deliver, knowing what they deliver and who they talk to, and at a much lower cost than what government can do. This is the argument we're making. I'm sure that, for example, Mr. McCallum would be really pleased to be here, to come to the committee and talk to you about it.SusanKadisThornhillAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1210)[Translation]Some departments are being asked to prepare a comprehensive report. Given past experience, I believe that the objective is to have this done with enthusiasm and goodwill. At this point, the tools are ready and we are convincing the departments to implement them. Training is being given and departments are being urged to hire experts in these areas. It is not easy. It seems relatively easy to us, but it is not. It is not always easy to carry out a gender-based comparative analysis. You really have to know where and when to do it. One of our objectives is to do a comprehensive report, and we are really going to work on that. Our objective is to work in cooperation with you. Like all other committees, this committee will do research and make recommendations. If you do that, we will be guided by your good advice and suggestions. PauleBrunelleTrois-RivièresFranceBonsantCompton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1215)[Translation]On the question of parental leave, I first want to point out that family policy is under provincial jurisdiction. For example, the national daycare program is currently being established by my colleague, Ken Dryden. The federal government is using the Quebec experience as a model and adapting it to the provinces. Quebec has 200,000 daycare spaces: that has been achieved. According to Mr. Béchard, Quebec wants to develop a solid family policy and support families. Since Quebec already has its daycare spaces, the federal government will transfer the money to the province. Now, the federal government will not impose this, but Quebec society as a whole will have to make sure that this money—we are not talking peanuts, after all, when the figure is one billion dollars—is given to Mr. Béchard to develop a family policy. Quebec imposes its minimum rate, and Mr. Béchard has to negotiate with the finance minister to ensure that part of that money will be applied to his family policy. That family policy is his responsibility. Our responsibility is to ensure that when the daycare program is rolled out, Quebec gets its share. Once again, this is a provincial jurisdiction, but...FranceBonsantCompton—StansteadFranceBonsantCompton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1215)[Translation]That is right. It is transferred as part of the Canada Social Transfer. FranceBonsantCompton—StansteadFranceBonsantCompton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1215)[English]As far as a progress report, we don't have a choice. We do have progress reports. CEDAW has four objectives—poverty, femmes autochtones, responsabilisation, and gender-based analysis. That's for the whole of Canada.As far as the measures, we revert to CEDAW for the measures. I remember working in social development why we decided to go for a national child care plan, because when you look at poverty and when we look at poverty in women's situations, you don't take very long to say that you do have to take this responsibility because others don't. That's why the objective of this national child care plan--and we finance it--is to start this movement to say it is so important. This is in reply to CEDAW.As far as femmes autochtones, we're working now with aboriginal affairs to develop a plan. This plan will ask other departments about violence against women. There's the Department of Aboriginal Affairs that is impliqué. There is Justice and Health also.JeanCrowderNanaimo—CowichanJeanCrowderNanaimo—Cowichan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1220)[English]Is 2007 the action plan, Florence?JeanCrowderNanaimo—CowichanJeanCrowderNanaimo—Cowichan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1220)[English]Status of Women has its own responsibility, yes. BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]Of course.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]Absolutely.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]I don't understand.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]With gender-based analysis, and the Department of Immigration is an example, it's the responsibility of all departments. It is a specific responsibility of all departments. BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]It's only Immigration that has it written into their act.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]No. That's what we want to do. We're not there yet.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]Immigration.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]No, Madame Robillard inserted it in her bill.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]Status of Women Canada gives an annual report, reporting what we're doing. Since we're Status of Women Canada, if we don't do the job, I don't know why we have a department called Status of Women. [Translation]It is a basic part of what we do.[English]But in regard to the other departments, up to now we've been trying to convince the other departments to do it. We don't have the authority, if that's what you mean, to ask the human resources department, for example, to build in their bill--BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]Who did and who didn't? No, we don't do that.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]We're not doing it now. What we are suggesting is the other departments now...because it's exactly the discussion I had before.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1225)[English]We want them to make the use of the gender-based analysis an obligation. We have an interdepartmental table--this is new--and now we'll work specifically with departments that I'd say have more of a natural partnership with us than others.Whether it be the departments of social development, human resources, health, justice, or immigration, these are sort of first-line departments. We're working with those departments so that they feel an obligation, like Madame Robillard felt that obligation.But I have to tell you, Madame Robillard comes from Quebec. In Quebec, as I said, we did it enthusiastically. So she enthusiastically applied it to immigration. BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1230)[English]And we do.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1230)[English]You can't say we're getting nowhere, because that is being extremely negative. We can't say we're getting nowhere, because there are policies being taken by departments now that are really helping. We're working with aboriginal affairs on a whole plan on violence against aboriginal women. It comes from that too. So we can't say--BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1230)[English]I know what you mean, but we can't say that the government is not responding. With $5 billion on a national child care plan, I think it is responding. Just dividing social development is an action exactly toward social responsibilities, and as you know, in that department, it's almost all targeted to women.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1230)[English]And I told you we were fixing that.LynneYelichHon.BlackstrapLynneYelichHon.Blackstrap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1230)[English]First of all, it's hard for me to respond to that, and I'm going to tell you why. You should ask the question to Mr. Dryden or the Minister of Health. I can't talk for them, but knowing some parents myself...we all share the despair of some of the parents.LynneYelichHon.BlackstrapLynneYelichHon.Blackstrap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1230)[English]Now, coming back to the program and the audits, there's an evaluation going on now, 2004-05. As I said before you came in, we have $10.5 million given to various projects all over Canada. As far as just evaluating and auditing are concerned, I'll ask Jackie to answer that.LynneYelichHon.BlackstrapJackieClaxton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1235)[English]Madam Chair, I just want to thank the committee. As I said before, we also now have a committee of our own, so we really look forward to the recommendations of the committee--sincerely.We're all pushing in the same direction. I'm not saying it's easy pushing uphill sometimes.AnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South CentreAnitaNevilleHon.Winnipeg South Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla (Minister of Canadian Heritage): (0905)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Good morning everyone.First, I want to say that I would have liked to appear before the Standing Committee on Official Languages sooner. Pablo asked me a number of times. But, as you know, Tuesday evening was a very important evening, and, on Wednesday, we defended cultural and official languages causes. I think everyone will be happy with that. The fact is that I'm here today. I'm aware that I am talking to people who have worked very hard in the official languages field. I'm accompanied by Ms. Sarkar, Assistant Deputy Minister, Citizenship and Heritage, and Ms. LaRocque, Deputy Minister. Lastly, there are also all my people. If you have any technical questions to ask or suggestions to make, please feel free: that's why we're here. I want to take this opportunity to congratulate Pablo Rodriguez on being named Chair of your committee. Among you I see women and men who have long espoused the cause of official-language communities and have always defended with vigour our linguistic duality. Among others, there is Marc, whom I know better. There's also Mr. Poilievre.Lastly, we know that this issue is important and that our investments in official language cannot be evaluated solely in terms of costs and benefits. Contributing to the development of Canada's Francophone communities and helping to strengthen our linguistic duality—this is a task that involves more than figures: it's a question of culture and identity, a measure of success and a duty for each of us as Canadians.Yesterday evening I attended the premiere of the film Nouvelle-France. This fine film reminded me of how deeply our linguistic duality is rooted in the very heart of this country.(0910)[English] Whether we are aboriginal persons, anglophone, francophone, Canadians by descent, or, like myself, the offspring of immigrants, we are all the inheritors of this country, which is defined by its bilingualism and by its diversity.Today I'm honoured to have the opportunity, as Minister of Canadian Heritage, to play a key role in preserving and enriching this heritage. Official languages is a complex portfolio, and I still have much to learn and to discover, since I've only been here for four months. Rest assured, however, that I'm giving it my full attention.[Translation]As a Quebecker and a Francophone, it is a portfolio that matters to me personally. Last August I participated in the annual meeting of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, in Halifax. And a few weeks ago I met with representatives of minority communities from across Canada as part of the consultations on the Action Plan for Official Languages. These meetings were very valuable. They helped me get a clearer picture of the concerns of official-language communities. I also took the opportunity to extend a request to the different community representatives. I asked them to work with me in order to maximize the benefits from programs of the Department of Canadian Heritage, and to make the issues that they face government priorities.In carrying out my job, I have set three specific objectives for myself. First, I want Francophones to be a strong voice within Canada's diverse society. Second, I want our linguistic duality to become more than ever an asset for our young people and our country. Third, I want culture to serve as a genuine catalyst for the economic and social development of official language communities.My political experience has taught me that in this country nothing is impossible for those who see the big picture and who aim high.[English] I'm convinced that we can achieve still more progress on official languages if all the leading players make common cause. This is exactly what the action plan for official languages calls on us to do. The plan gives us the necessary vision and resources to help English- and French-speaking minority communities take a vital step over the coming years. It gives us the means to strengthen our linguistic duality. In addition, it helps us coordinate the efforts of all departments toward a genuine synergy for the benefit of official language minority communities. The plan calls for the Department of Canadian Heritage to play a role of the first importance.May I remind you that of the $751 million to be invested over five years in the action plan, more than half, specifically $415 million, has been allocated to my department. This shows the importance of our programs and our policy. The new funds will enable us to increase our efforts in the areas of minority language and second language teaching as well as our direct support to the communities. And this is what we are currently working on with the department.[Translation]In our knowledge-based and innovation-based world, education is undoubtedly a sector of major importance, especially for linguistic minorities. Without the opportunity for each Canadian to learn our country's other official language, the roots of our linguistic duality will gradually wither.This is why we are going to invest $1.3 billion by 2008 in minority-language and second-language teaching. Of this amount, $346 million will be distributed to the provinces as ear-marked funds: $209 million specifically for minority-language teaching; and $137 million for second-language teaching. In this way we will be able to work toward two ambitious objectives of the Action Plan, namely: to ensure that the proportion of Francophone children enrolled in French-language schools rises from 68% to 80%; and by 2013, to double the number of young Canadians having some knowledge of their second official language.At present, with the provinces and territories we are negotiating bilateral agreements on ear-marked funds, to start in 2004-2005. I am confident that we are going to conclude agreements in the coming months, and that new activities will speedily be put in place during the current fiscal year.The process may seem rather lengthy. But this is something entirely new. We must determine common objectives that are rooted in the situation and needs of each province and territory. During this process, it is important to ensure that the groups and associations that are the main stays of the education system are consulted by education ministries.To give provinces and territories the flexibility for long-term planning, we are going to provide them with a predetermined annual envelope. In addition, a part of the new funds will be used to meet emerging needs, finance research studies or participate in multilateral projects with various governments.(0915)[English]Accountability will be a vital aspect of these agreements. It's important to measure the effectiveness of our efforts and demonstrate the greatest possible transparency. With regard to base funds, we are currently negotiating with the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada to renew the memorandum of understanding for a five-year period. I am confident that the memorandum of understanding will be in place so that the bilateral agreements on base funds can be concluded with each province and territory by April 2005. This briefly is where we are in our efforts with regard to teaching. One thing is certain. We are not standing idle. We are working in close cooperation with different partners to ensure that young people in official language minority communities receive high-quality education in their first language.Of course, our education efforts contribute to strengthening our linguistic duality. Young Canadians today are the most bilingual generation in our history, but we can do better, and we are going to do better by doubling, as I said a little earlier, the number of young people capable of using both of our official languages.One young Canadian in two has the opportunity of attending classes taught in his or her second official language—in most cases starting from elementary school. For our country this is also a huge advantage in a time of globalization, when borders are disappearing and exchanges are increasing.[Translation]As a result of bilingualism and its work force, Montréal has become a hub for cutting-edge industries such as aerospace and multi-media.In recent years New Brunswick has also been able to put to use its bilingualism in order to attract to the province companies from abroad that work in the services sector.This is why we will invest a total of around $330 million over five years in second-language teaching—an increase of more than $137 million.This is also why we offer scholarship and exchange programs that each year enable close to 8,000 young people to discover other regions of our country and improve their second-language skills.Last, this is why we support the efforts of organizations such as French for the Future and Canadian Parents for French, which do significant work in English Canada to promote the importance of learning French.The role of the department is not limited to the education sector. Instead, we also seek to ensure development of official-language minority communities. The Canada-communities agreements have allowed us to make considerable progress over the past decade. Many new community organizations have taken root within communities, and institutional networks are stronger. In addition, recent years have seen the start-up of 18 French-language community radio stations, seven English-language community radio stations and 20 community centres. We have also supported hundreds of projects yielding social, cultural and economic benefits within official-language minority communities.The end of the last five-year cycle of Canada-community agreements gives us the opportunity to check whether existing cooperation methods are still the best way of working together. In this regard, last August I announced that consultations would be held to better understand the ideas of the communities. I launched this process because I want to be sure that we are going not only in the same direction but in the right direction.I want all the players in official-language communities now and in the future—youth, women, community, socio-economic, sport and cultural organizations, the education sector, the business sector, and all levels of government—to make their voices heard and to work in close cooperation. I want to lay the foundation for a new solidarity pact that will link us together. It is only by joint effort that we can develop a genuine synergy for the benefit of official-language minority communities.[English] Representatives of my department are now visiting communities in every part of our country. Participation is good. The discussions are frank and informative. The consultation will continue until early December. Afterwards we are going to be guided by what we have heard in order to determine the shape of our cooperation in coming years.Further, we are going to continue to rely on the federal-provincial-territorial agreements on services, to which we will allocate close to $80 million by 2008. Through these agreements, we have helped provinces such as New Brunswick and Ontario implement their legislation on services for French speakers.We must also take into account the benefit of programs of the Canadian Heritage portfolio with objectives that indirectly serve the interests of official language minority communities. When we speak of quality of life and the vitality of these communities, it's impossible to overlook the importance of the arts and cultural sector. I'm thinking in particular of public institutions such as CBC/Radio-Canada. Its television and radio programs reach all francophones throughout Canada. I'm thinking of its little sister, RDI, which has 6.8 million subscribers outside Quebec.(0920)[Translation]I am thinking of the Canadian Television Fund. One-third of its support is reserved for French-language productions, and since 1999-2000, it has invested close to $40 million in the production of French programs.I am thinking of the National Film Board and Telefilm Canada. They too raise the profile of our two official languages, and support our creative people and our artists living in minority communities.I am thinking of the Canada Music Fund, which devotes 40% of its budget to promoting the creation of Francophone content.I am thinking of the Canada Council for the Arts, which directly funds the work of artists and organizations in these communities.I am thinking of the Book Publishing Industry Development Program, which each year assists around 100 Francophone publishers throughout Canada.I could go on and on because the mandate of my department is broad and its scope is very wide, but I think that you have understood that our cultural programs greatly help to increase the impact of our actions in the sector of official languages.Having access to culture is all the more important for residents of a minority-language community since culture is closely associated with the identify of the community and the future of its language. This is why I want each program and each policy of my department to be able to make its contribution as far as possible.[English] This is also why I intend to fully perform the coordinating role conferred on me by section 42 of the Official Languages Act. Under this section I'm responsible for encouraging all departments and agencies of the Government of Canada to enhance the vitality of English and French linguistic minority communities. In this regard, the department has developed its interdepartmental partnership with official language communities, which seeks to encourage government organizations to work more closely with official language communities.The objective is to promote shared cost projects so that different federal departments and agencies can forge lasting ties with the communities. Already 15 memoranda of understanding are in place dealing with critical sectors such as health, economic development, human resources, skills development, agriculture, fisheries and aquaculture, and of course culture. This translates into $23 million invested in specific projects, including $17 million from federal partners and other players. I'm proud to announce to you that three more memoranda of understanding will soon be signed with three key players: Status of Women Canada, the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, and the National Arts Centre.[Translation]In conclusion, this in short is where we are and where we are heading. Much work remains to be done, but our commitment is strong and we are making progress. All the ingredients are in place so that together we can succeed in giving minority communities the tools to realize their ambitions.Over the coming months, I am counting on you to help us find new ways of meeting the different challenges we face. I'm thinking in particular of the aging of Canada's population and our low rate of demographic growth. These make immigration a crucial issue, especially in our minority communities. As I often say to my Cabinet colleagues, one of our biggest challenges is to ensure that not only the Boudreaults, the Lapierres, the Robillards and the Tremblays speak French, but that so do the Brunis, the Hamads, the Larkins, the Wongs and the Frullas.This is only a cursory look at the task incumbent on us as elected officials.[English]I am convinced that we can meet these challenges and many others so that throughout our country our children and grandchildren continue to speak, write, and sing in French. Again, thank you for having invited me to speak before you. I look forward to working with you. We're ready to respond to your questions.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[Translation]First, it must be understood that, under the calculation formula, the investment is proportionate to population, and also to the Francophone population. That's why you see those figures for New Brunswick or the other provinces that you mentioned. That's why, as I said a moment ago, when you look at the financial statements, you have to go beyond the figures. The figures say one thing, but the actual situation is quite different. That's what the figures reflect.That doesn't mean that we aren't working with the other provinces. We're also working to reach agreements with them, just as we are currently doing in the education field. In certain provinces, however, the needs in certain provinces are greater than in others because of their populations.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0925)[Translation]There are two schools of thought on this subject. According to the first, you have to maintain an existing pool. Consequently, you don't have a choice. It's there, it's vibrant and you have to support it.According to the second school, there's also a pool that has to be developed. It should not be forgotten that we're still working in cooperation with the provinces. These are partnership agreements with the provinces. Certain provinces are obviously more committed than others. However, we really have to work hard with other provinces, if only to convince them. Other provinces feel that their needs and, in some cases their involvement, are perhaps at a lower level. So work is required over the longer term.Our investments will clearly be in relation to the changing situation. In fact, that's what we've already done in the context of the government's action plan, which has a $750 million budget. Before I joined it, the government said that it was a stroke of luck to have entrenched protection for both official languages in the Constitution. So something has to be done because it needs a breath of fresh air. It needs a kind of crack of the whip, and that's what the action plan does.That said, we're trying as hard as possible to introduce this interest in both languages and to protect minority languages. We're also obviously following developments in the provinces.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0930)[Translation]I'm pleased you mentioned that, Mr. Lauzon, since the new investments under the action plan will take that into account.We're currently negotiating on education, and I'm convinced we'll be talking about that again. I know there's a delay, but we'll take that into account. You have to strike a fair balance and support the critical mass in certain provinces. That will never satisfy us completely, even if things go better. On the other hand, you have to try to ensure a kind of influx to the provinces which may be a little slower. We're going to do that and we're doing it right now. You're correct.It should also be said that we take into consideration the amount invested, but there's also new money from the action plan, among other things, and we'll be using that new money to do what you say.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0930)[Translation]Ms. Sarkar is the one who deals with these questions in detail.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0935)[Translation]First, with respect to the OLSPs, I would note that we've invested $300 million in the communities since 1994. Of course, there are two ways of doing things. I'll be very honest with you today. As you said, we are together and we learn together. Ultimately, our objective, particularly for me, a Quebecker and a Francophone, is to determine whether we can find the best possible ways so that things work well. The official languages, as a culture, are a cause.We've invested $300 million. In August, we wondered whether we would continue to do what we were already doing, without asking any questions, which would have been easy, or whether we would go into the communities and see whether this method, which has been used for 10 years, was still the right one. If necessary, we were going to continue doing what we previously did.However, new organizations have been established, in addition to existing ones. In the community field, we know that, in some cases, certain organizations become more efficient than others. Sometimes they better represent the community.We implemented a consultation process in August. I met the federation in Halifax, and I must tell you that people were reluctant at first. They wondered whether the consultation would result in cutbacks. I assured them that that was absolutely not the purpose and that the idea was in fact to determine what the needs were and whether we were going to continue as before.Despite the reluctance in August, the consultation began. Then I went to the second consultation meeting, which was held here in Ottawa. I talked to the people, and I realized that they wanted to take part in the process. I think the mechanism is appreciated. The consultations will end in December. At that point we'll collate the information gathered. Hubert Lussier, who is here with us, will then meet with the communities to negotiate with them. Then we'll determine what organizations we'll support, what the needs are and the best way to proceed.I think we'll have some nice surprises in January and February. With your permission--and I know there's a time limit--Hubert will tell you about the consultations and how they're being conducted.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0940)[Translation]First, I should tell you that an additional investment of $137 million over five years will be made under the plan, precisely to increase bilingualism. You're right about British Columbia. I've been there a number of times, and it fascinates me to see that, yes, people speak English in that province, but they also speak very good French. Whether it's in Kelowna and Vancouver, you see a lot of will and openness. A lot of people converse in French. That absolutely has to continue. You sense that there's a solid push on, a solid wave in that province, in particular.Now we want there to be an increase from 68 to 80 percent. That's the objective. There are two things, as you mentioned. There's the planned amount of $137 million, and I'll ask Mr. Lussier to give you an answer on the percentages, but parents must also be encouraged to ensure that their children learn both languages. That's not always easy when you live in a majority Anglophone environment. There has to be this encouragement and support, as well as good French-language instruction, as you say. I remember that, when I was in school, English-language instruction was terrible. We learned virtually nothing. So there are two things: encourage parents to tell their children that learning the other official language in a majority Anglophone environment is worth the trouble, and offer high-quality instruction.The $137 million I referred to must be used for precisely that: to work with the provinces. It should not be forgotten that education is an exclusively provincial jurisdiction. And provincial jurisdictions must be respected, both for official languages and for other programs. However, the provinces, including Quebec, agree that they will nevertheless submit progress reports to their populations and that they're on board on this. So we're working with the provinces in a bilateral manner. They're on board, and, even though it's their jurisdiction, they want to provide progress reports because it's important for us to know where we're headed.That's the present objective of the negotiations in the two areas: education and support for minority languages, but also second-language instruction.Mr. Lussier will speak to you more specifically about British Columbia.PeterJulianBurnaby—New WestminsterHubertLussier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0945)[Translation]I'm convinced we'll be talking about that soon, but I'll say briefly that that's part of our negotiations. I said I was determined that the negotiations--and I'm saying this in front of Mr. Lussier because he's negotiating with Eileen--should be completed by the end of March 2005. We're negotiating with the provinces. Once the negotiations are completed,[English] the money is going to be flowing.[Translation]However, we must complete these negotiations and establish an MOU. We're doing that bilaterally first, in order to be more effective. We've decided to do it bilaterally, province by province, but with common objectives, which are obviously different for Quebec, but nevertheless common. Those objectives will be part of an MOU that the provinces will want to sign. That's so that we can say we're in it together and state the major objectives we're pursuing.PeterJulianBurnaby—New WestminsterPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0945)[Translation]If there's anyone who believes in community radio stations, it's me. A few years ago, when I was Minister of Culture in Quebec, the community radio stations were substantially funded by the provincial government. Why? Because community radio stations reach the communities perhaps more effectively than the major private radio stations or public television. We'll come back to that later.The federal government funds community radio start-ups and also funds the Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada. You say that community radio stations are in trouble. That's often attributable to a lack of revenue or secondary funding. We want to support them, but we can't always replace other levels of government, which should accept their responsibility to a greater degree. This is happening in a number of sectors: people turn to the federal government after losing the support of a province, municipality or private sector. There always has to be a balance. You also have to realize that we have to cover the entire country in this area. We want to support them, but we can't take full responsibility for them. We're also funding all the restructuring efforts.So we fund them at the start, we fund the Alliance des radios communautaires, and we also fund restructuring efforts as necessary.Hubert, do you have anything to add?Jean-ClaudeD'AmoursMadawaska—RestigoucheHubertLussier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0950)[Translation]So we fund them at the start, we support their restructuring and we fund the Alliance des radios communautaires. If there's a restructuring, it's as though it were a start-up, and we can work with them for a certain period of time. When there's a restructuring, we help them self-finance, as I've previously done at another level of government. Otherwise it would be endless.HubertLussierJean-ClaudeD'AmoursMadawaska—Restigouche//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (0950)[Translation]Thank you very much for your question. We're talking about community radio stations and programs, but it goes beyond that. There's also all the support for the department's cultural programs. That should not be downplayed.On Tuesday evening, we had a long discussion on the Tomorrow Starts Today program, which is called Un avenir en art in French. This is an initiative that will terminate in 2005. We're working very hard, and I must say things are going well, to renew this initiative for at least four years. And once the programs have been well evaluated, we'll try to include this program in the department's base. Why? I'm now going to describe the link with the Arts Presentation program.We've put everything relevant to the minority communities into this program. It's one of the most important tools for those communities. Whether it's for the minority communities or for Aboriginal people, it's fundamentally important, and that's why we're working so hard so that this initiative is renewed for a long period of time. The Arts Presentation program is flexible and enables us to support initiatives such as festivals, theatre plays and so on, what I call the living arts. It maintains the Francophone presence in a community and gives people in the Francophone minority communities a taste for French.Jean-ClaudeD'AmoursMadawaska—RestigouchePabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1000)[Translation]I'd say that's more related to the negotiations. We have two components. We have the minority languages education and support component and we have the second-language instruction component. As I said a moment ago, we want to wrap up the negotiations we're currently conducting with the provinces in March 2005. In the meantime, however, we're working bilaterally. We're not depriving anyone, but we want to have an action plan that covers a number of years.As I said a moment ago, there's the whole question of the provinces' accountability, in the sense that the provinces have agreed to join with us so that we can have reference points so we know exactly where we're headed. Whether or not we like it, we're nevertheless dealing with small communities and small amounts.Second, consultations are currently on the way on community support. In that case too, the schedule for March 2005...OdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreOdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1000)[Translation]I'll ask Hubert to answer because the money has started to go out to the communities in the meantime.OdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreHubertLussier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1000)[Translation]I'm satisfied with certain results. I've been here for four months; I've just arrived. I'm satisfied with what's going on right now, based on what I hear and see. I can't say that I'm not, because I am.When I got here and I was told there was a consultation plan, I wasn't very enthusiastic about the idea of conducting more consultations. But now, I'm really pleased that we're having these consultations. After attending some of them, I realize that a dynamic is being established in the community, as a result of which we're including other organizations, and the process is thus not a closed circle. In addition, the organizations are becoming aware of the fact that we aren't the only gateway. With the action plan, there are other departments that must be made accountable. Canadian Heritage isn't all alone in this. A lot of other departments must be very much aware of the fact that this is a crucial issue for Canada. It's important.Second, the education negotiations with the provinces are going well.OdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreOdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]I'll let Ms. LaRocque speak because she was here before me.However, I can say that we don't deny there is some catching up to do. Nor do we deny that we're dealing with areas of provincial jurisdiction. The Commissioner of Official Languages can't make any comments on that. I come from Quebec, and I can assure you that we're going to respect those areas of jurisdiction to the letter. Of course, it's always easier when you have full responsibility, as in the case of the Tomorrow Starts Today program, for example. In that case, we're operating in the field and we're all alone. But it's different when you're negotiating in a delicate area of exclusively provincial jurisdiction.Of course a partnership has to be established. That's going very well to date, but we're in a negotiating period and not in a period of exclusive responsibility.OdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièrePabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1005)[Translation]As I told Mr. Desrochers, given that there are areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction, negotiations are being conducted government to government, as partners. However, we would like the bilateral agreements with the provinces, as well as the umbrella MOU that follows, enabling us to ensure that the provinces consult the school boards.That's how we can ensure they are present. So we're negotiating government to government, which is consistent with any federal-provincial negotiation. However, we must ensure that the provincial government consults the school board. That doesn't prevent us from hearing the school board when we conduct our major consultations to establish our priorities and procedures in a future follow-up. The school board is still an important organization, a tool to ensure that we put good objectives in place. We'll also have to ensure that the provinces consult the school boards. Once again, the final negotiations are being conducted government to government.MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansMarcGodboutOttawa—Orléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1010)[Translation]Since you're referring to a past initiative, I'll ask Mr. Bouchard to answer that question.MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansRenéBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[English]This is why there's a plan of action. I was saying before that what was important was to put everybody together, like we did three weeks ago, when everybody came and we were around the table—I think there were eleven ministers around the table—and talking to communities.You're really touching a very important point. A few years ago, before the plan of action, we were the only porte d'entrée. We were the only one, and the communities came to see us, point final.[Translation]You can't talk about official languages without saying it's a government objective. So we have to implement the $750 million action plan. We candidly admit that there are delays in education. However, we promise we'll make up for time lost.That said, you also have to realize that all the departments have to be involved and that it's our role to coordinate all that. Consequently, we establish memoranda of understanding with the other departments to ensure each department has a responsibility.We can't make it so that people are bilingual if ultimately there are no bilingual jobs in any of the provinces. That's not a problem in Quebec, since people are required, or virtually required, to be bilingual there. However, it would be good for that obligation to exist elsewhere, because if there is not only a cultural incentive, but also a financial incentive--in other words, a value-added--in being bilingual, there will be more demand in the schools and more pressure at the federal and provincial level. Everything then follows. For this reason, we think it's very important that all the departments be involved. A culture change is required. A culture change is a lengthy process for a government, particularly at the federal level. However, we have an action plan that attests to our commitment. We have to do more, and, consequently, we have to support the fact that the Constitution states that there are two official languages in Canada. That's the bottom line.There's nevertheless an additional investment of $137 million, and that money will be used for second-language instruction in communities such as yours.PeterJulianBurnaby—New WestminsterPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1015)[English]You're right, when we talk about bilingualism, we have to have the same or a similar definition. It could be modulated by provinces, because let's face it, the social context in certain provinces is different from that of the others. But you're right, we still have to have a certain standard.I'll ask Hubert, because I think their standards are built in.AndrewScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleHubertLussier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[English] That's why we have consultations. There are organizations that have the funds and have received the funds since we started in 1976, and others that were added on that are very dynamic and answer now to the new social needs. That's why, when we started the consultations in August, we said we have to review our way of doing things.Now, if we say we're doing fine, that's perfect, but we have to ask ourselves questions. That's why, in August, when we said we were going to consult...we're proceeding, and everybody has to be in it together. There was some reticence. There were some organizations saying, “Whoa, we've been there since 1976”, and rightfully so.With the consultations, I was worried about them at the beginning, but now I'm really into them because we can feel that there's very frank discussion. If those discussions mean the organizations themselves feel that either they have to work together or merge and they feel they would be more efficient just pulling together, this is fine, but it has to come from the grassroots. We can't go in and say, “Yes, you; yes, no, yes, no”, because they all do a great job in a very difficult situation.We have to at least support the fact that there's an evolution, and then support this evolution. This is the best way of working, because at the end you have people who are there, who are convinced. And again, let's face it, when you are in a minority situation, if you look at French minority communities and there are all these English communities, c'est monolithique, it's vast. We're not talking about English in Canada, because we have the United States also.It takes a lot of courage to say, “We have our language and we'll keep it, and we'll work at it to keep it and to promote it”. Sincerely, I have a lot of admiration for those who do that either in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or British Columbia, or anywhere there are very few francophones compared to the great number of anglophones around them.AndrewScheerRegina—Qu'AppellePabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1020)[Translation]Your question on evaluation as a whole is similar to Mr. Poilievre's. Are there any evaluations? How are they conducted? This has to be done in a thorough way. I'm going to hand over to Mr. Lussier.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéHubertLussier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]There is a de facto increase as a result of the action plan. A new amount of $19.5 million, which comes from the action plan, was added to support for community organizations.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]It's $19 million over five years, so approximately $35 million a year.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéGuyAndréBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1025)[Translation]Yes, but it shouldn't be forgotten that this is also a combination. The situation is often considered in isolation. You're correct: there are these funds which are intended for community organizations, and there's new money. Of course, the federations ask us for more; we won't hide that fact. They ask us for more, and, if we had more, we'd be pleased to give it to them.However, I'll give you an example of something we're trying to do. If everything goes well, when we announce the renewal of the Tomorrow Starts Today program, we'll say in the basic statement that we're giving our support to the official language minority communities. We're already doing that because it's an inherent part of the program, but we'll also have to say it. So we're trying to ensure that all our cultural support programs have this component. We have to look at our programs very closely and beware when we go to the provinces with all kinds of cultural initiatives.GuyAndréBerthier—MaskinongéPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1030)[Translation]Let's talk more about the community area, because I must say we're constantly looking at culture.There have been some fairly significant increases. I think the statement that funding is the same as in 1993 should be corrected. Not only has there been an increase between 1993 and 2004, but, as I said earlier, as a result of the action plan, there will be a $19 million increase over five years from 2004 to 2009.Support totalled $16,738,628 in 1998-1999, and stands at $23,834,000 in 2003-2004. There has thus been an increase, and there's now an influx of money. The communities should receive approximately $35 million this year.Of course, the communities work very hard and would like to receive more. We're doing what we can to meet their requests, but you should also know that, contrary to what used to be the case, funding is now available in other departments.When I was at Social Development Canada, I received funds designed to promote child development at the preschool level in the minority communities.RaymondSimardHon.Saint BonifaceRaymondSimardHon.Saint Boniface//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1030)[Translation]Since we have to coordinate all the departments, let me know when that kind of impact occurs. We're signing MOUs with the departments.You have to understand two things. Mr. Bélanger is responsible for implementation of the action plan. The action plan has to be reflected at the government level, and that's his role. Our role is obviously the implementation of part of the act as regards official languages. We also have to ensure that supporting minority languages and bilingualism is always a priority in the cultural field.Now we're working on coordinating the MOUs with the departments. The departments are no longer entitled to do what you're talking about. There's the money we're receiving from the action plan, but we still have to look at our government actions very carefully, bearing in mind that we have a responsibility for official languages.As for Cultural Spaces Canada, that's part of the big umbrella, Tomorrow Starts Today /Un avenir en art. I'm pleased to talk about it because we're taking part in it. I must say that Cultural Spaces Canada isn't being used to make major investments. They're sometimes $50,000, $100,000 or $200,000. The most that has been requested was $2 million, and that's really the maximum. That makes it possible to go to all the communities to help them modernize, improve and sometimes create cultural spaces. That's part of the Tomorrow Starts Today program, and that's why it's so important to renew that program for at least four years and, eventually, to make it part of the department's permanent budget.RaymondSimardHon.Saint BonifacePabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[English]I'll tell you, Mr. Julian, although we have the responsibility of section 42, we have the responsibility of getting protocol, the specific responsibility for the issue you're mentioning goes to Treasury Board. That's why I was saying we can't do it all. Every department now has to think about official languages, and that's why we have the action plan. This is the discipline we want to instill within the government. And you know, this is a good example; the responsibility goes to Treasury Board. The minister responsible for Treasury Board could come here and meet you for an hour if you want, and you could ask for specifics. It would be good for the other minister also to come here and have this discussion with you.PeterJulianBurnaby—New WestminsterPeterJulianBurnaby—New Westminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[English]But this is specific really, and they have the rules; Treasury Board sets its own rules. We can't go into the departments and tell them what to do. The only thing we can do is.... Do we have a protocol? Okay, make sure you consider official languages. But we don't have the responsibility, the legal responsibility also, for another specific department, if you want.PeterJulianBurnaby—New WestminsterPeterJulianBurnaby—New Westminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[Translation]We fund the integration of new Canadians through aid to the Francophone communities. That's how we ensure they are integrated.In addition, the Department of Citizenship and Immigration has a responsibility for integration. In any case, when Francophones immigrate to Canada, they come to Quebec. We have our own immigrant selection mechanisms, as a result of which Francophone immigrants are welcomed to a greater degree in Quebec.PeterJulianBurnaby—New WestminsterPeterJulianBurnaby—New Westminster//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1035)[Translation]That's good news. In fact, we did it in Quebec to ensure there were mechanisms for preserving our language. We introduced legislation to promote French as the province's language precisely to support the language. The more Francophone immigrants there are in other provinces, the more enthusiasm there will be for French, which will progress further.So there is support for Francophone immigration through the communities so that the second generation remains Francophone instead of automatically assimilating to English. There's also the new Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, which attaches more weight to knowledge of both languages.PeterJulianBurnaby—New WestminsterPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1040)[English] I'll leave the evaluation out of it because they have done it before.The only thing I can say is that even if we don't have the final protocole d'entente, we're still working with the provinces. GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1040)[English] I know what you mean, but we do have standards. We're not saying, “We're sending you the money, so do whatever you want with it and eventually we'll have an evaluation”, or that we'll have standards and then we'll have an evaluation. That is not the way it works. GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1040)[English]I had a good conversation with Dyane Adam. The plan of action is to get in and have a protocol and standardization--well, standardization, but modulated by provinces and negotiation by one province and the other. GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1040)[English]Yes, you're right. That's the ideal situation. The thing is that we get into a process with the evaluation because education is a provincial competence and we have to be respectful of that too. GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryGuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South Glengarry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1040)[English]No, that's not true. I'll leave that to Judith.GuyLauzonStormont—Dundas—South GlengarryJudithLaRocque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1045)[Translation]Cuts were made at Radio-Canada at one point to correct an almost desperate economic situation across Canada, but funds were subsequently reinjected. However, it's not a question of funding at Radio-Canada. I lived there for four years, every day. It's also something else: there has to be a certain will. It's easy to ask for money, but, if you want money, prove to me that it will be put in the right place. So we're in conversation.I met with the president of Radio-Canada, whose term was renewed for three years, and we talked about Radio-Canada's regional mandate. This situation doesn't exist for just Francophones; it exists across Canada. So we're conducting an evaluation to determine how much it will cost Radio-Canada, not to go back to the starting gate, but to plug back into the regional communities. Radio-Canada is supposed to submit its business plan to us by December and tell us how it intends to ensure that regional presence. Radio-Canada will also have to ensure--and it's doing this--that it works not only with Montreal or Ontario producers, but also with producers from across Canada who represent the minority communities. There's talent everywhere. There's also the Canadian Television Fund budget, approximately 40 percent of which must support Francophone production. In the circumstances, we must also ensure--and we're doing this--that there are producers everywhere.To answer your question specifically, I'll say that Radio-Canada will soon be submitting its master plan to us, in which it is supposed to provide evidence of its will to plug back into the regions. Now how much will it cost to plug back into the regions that were abandoned, in some cases, 10 years ago.MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansMarcGodboutOttawa—Orléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1050)[Translation]Yes, there is that. It's not always a question of money, but there's a money issue in television. So Radio-Canada will submit a plan to us, and I'm convinced that plan will require us to pay it additional money.If the government decides to give Radio-Canada money to achieve its desire to be more present in the regions, it can grant it targeted funding and ensure that that funding is spent for that and not for anything else.Mr. Lauzon, when you work at Canadian Heritage, you have to be more thorough. When I say Canadian Heritage, I mean the entire portfolio, and that includes culture, official languages and support for the status of women.We work with programs and have direct clienteles, not like others. When I was at Social Development, in negotiations, there was a community party, but most negotiations were conducted with the provinces, and they had ultimate responsibility for making things work.When you work directly with clients, you make sure you exercise good financial control. That's very important. I must say we usually administer ourselves with less than 11 percent in all our programs and that we make audit requests to ourselves in order to be sure that we're headed in the right direction. We don't have enough money to afford to waste it. That also applies to the education agreements and the community agreements. In education, there's the audit of the provinces. We make sure, at the provincial level, that the money goes where it's supposed to go.I know we want tighter standards, but, when it comes to an area of exclusive provincial jurisdiction, you have to convince the provinces that that's the way to do it. That's what's being done now, and the provinces know it.MarcGodboutOttawa—OrléansPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1050)[Translation]There's a special situation in Quebec because we're talking about Anglophones. There are the Montreal Anglophones, of course, but, as Ms. Adam recalled in her report, it should not be forgotten that there are Anglophones on the Gaspé Peninsula, for example. There are Anglophone pockets. Of course, they have different services. In Quebec, services are offered in both languages, and it's easier to be bilingual in Quebec than elsewhere. Anglophones nevertheless have access to a lot of services.So Quebec is treated differently because the situation there is different. Our negotiations with Quebec are being conducted bilaterally, and that's going very well. We negotiate with me on one side and Mr. Pelletier and Mr. Reid on the other. Mr. Reid agrees there should be accountability measures.OdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreOdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1055)[Translation]Accountability measures with regard to the Anglophone community. In other words, Quebec will report to its population, like the other provinces. There are going to be accountability measures because the Anglophone community will definitely request them.OdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièreOdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1055)[Translation]May I suggest something?OdinaDesrochersLotbinière—Chutes-de-la-ChaudièrePabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1055)[Translation]It will be very brief. We hear about regional television, regional needs and all that. You have a marvellous committee. Radio-Canada is prepared to answer your questions. You've previously invited its representatives in the past.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHonoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1055)[Translation]I'm going to answer the Radio-Canada question, and I'll let Ms. LaRocque talk about representation.When Radio-Canada submits its plan, we'll examine it. But, as I said, there's nothing preventing you from discussing these matters with Radio-Canada, which will be pleased to come.You're right, but you have to think about production costs. Television can't be completely regionalized, unless hundreds of millions of dollars are invested in it. That would be the ideal, of course, but we have to be able to pay for it. There are nevertheless ways of presenting regional news and having regional windows. I believe that deeply.However, Radio-Canada is doing an amazing job. Radio is more flexible. There are good initiatives in British Columbia, where I visited Radio-Canada. I'm thinking of ZeD. There are amazing initiatives in your province, at Radio-Canada in British Columbia, which are broadcast across Canada. I'd say that production must be shared across the country.So we'll be examining the regional plan, but invite Radio-Canada to come here. It would be good to have a discussion and to show the Crown corporation that it's being supported in this desire, to which Mr. Rabinovitch referred, to be more present in the regions.PeterJulianBurnaby—New WestminsterJudithLaRocque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/9134LizaFrullaHon.Liza-FrullaJeanne-Le BerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/38/FrullL.JPGInterventionHon. Liza Frulla: (1100)[Translation]We'll be pleased to come back. These exchanges are very helpful.PabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHonoré-MercierINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE