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Results: 1 - 15 of 177
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, everyone. Bonjour, mes amis.
Certainly we're pleased to be back. I'm glad you mentioned the staff. You've had them here more often than you've had me.
When I hear some of my colleagues talk about their experiences before committee, and certainly their officials, quite often coming to a committee can be pretty onerous. Our department has always felt very comfortable coming here. We try to give you what information we can, or provide it to you. I must say that all of us have been treated in the type of manner you would expect from a group like this. I've been part of it for a number of years. It helps to get the job done, so I thank you for that.
With me today are some familiar faces: Claire Dansereau, my department's associate deputy minister; George Da Pont, commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard; Cal Hegge, the assistant deputy minister of human resources and corporate services; and of course, no stranger to you at all, David Bevan, my ADM of fisheries and aquaculture management.
I've know you've met them several times regarding main estimates for this year's budget. I trust the discussions were helpful to you.
Today I'd like to begin by taking a step back from the details of the main estimates to provide a broader perspective of the financial picture over the past couple of years, which will hopefully give us a bit of a background for discussion. Following that, I'd like to discuss matters of collaborative arrangements between fish harvesters and the department, and I will finish up by making a statement about the coast guard.
I'm proud of the investments we've made to support Canada's fisheries and better manage our oceans. Since 2006, and leading up to this year's federal budget, our government has committed about $860 million to help Canada's fishing communities. We've increased DFO's budget by just under $100 million a year in permanent funding. We have introduced, and then improved, the first capital gains tax relief for our fish harvesters. All of you are the beneficiaries of that, because I'm sure you take credit for it. We financed the health of the oceans initiative for cleaner waters. We've reinvested in science and funded integrated commercial fishery plans on both coasts. We've put funding in place to renew the coast guard fleet, and we have improved habitat conservation and protection. And we have stepped up fisheries enforcement.
Bill C-32, a modernized fisheries act, will soon be at second reading in the House of Commons. I hope I can count on your cooperation to move it into committee, where you can do whatever work you want. There was some talk about us perhaps trying to limit the committee. I assure you that once it's in your hands, you will be the masters of it. There will be no interference from us whatsoever.
This extremely important piece of legislation follows extensive discussions over the past several years, with provinces, territories, as well as fishing interests, aboriginal groups, stakeholders, and others. Since tabling Bill C-45 in December 2006, people have had access to the bill. We have held numerous meetings with stakeholders to explain the content of the proposed legislation. As a result, almost 400 people and organizations provided us with feedback and suggested changes to the text. We listened. Where there was general agreement, we took action and modified the text. A lot of the major changes were your own suggestions on clarification and others. In terms of suggestions where there was no agreement, we will need to discuss that at committee stage.
I truly hope I can count on your support and cooperation during the committee stage to make this the best bill possible. I know from my own experience that the committee can do excellent work on this bill, just as it did on Bill S-215, an act to protect heritage lighthouses.
In terms of the bill, I say do your deliberations and make whatever changes are necessary. We want the best bill possible. And if we can't deliver that, we have a chance to vote for it in the House. Are we going to get perfection? Probably not; you never will. Is it better than what we have and as good as we can get under the circumstances? If it is, we should pass it. If it's not, then I'll live by your decision.
Together we can modernize this legislation, for industry, stakeholders, and Canadians. I call on all of you, in your duty as parliamentarians, to do just that.
This past February, with economic uncertainty around the world, we called for a prudent federal budget. We still found room to make key investments in Canada's fisheries. We committed $22 million over the first two years to help develop a more competitive and sustainable aquaculture sector. We have $70 million over five years, which has been accepted very positively by the aquaculture industry and the provinces involved. We devoted $10 million over two years to help fix up harbours. This is for community ownership. As you know, there was a commitment of $45 million to do that, so we can divest ourselves of harbours that are eating up the money you need to spend on your own wharves and breakwaters, etc.
Our government has also committed $8 million over the next two years to build a commercial harbour in Nunavut, one of several needed if we're going to see Nunavut benefit from its resources. It's going to be expensive, but it's needed in order for them to properly manage the resource and benefit from it.
The budget also set aside $720 million for a new polar class icebreaker. That's on top of the $750 million last year for a number of coast guard midshore patrol vessels. This vessel will have a far greater capability than the one it's replacing, by the way. As well as icebreaking, it will support a range of DFO programs and services like fisheries management activities, fishery science, and it will also help maintain Canada's presence in the north.
The government also devoted $20 million over the next two years to complete required mapping of the Arctic and Atlantic seabeds. This is a sovereignty issue, and it supports our claims to the outer limits of Canada's continental shelf. This funding is not from our department exclusively, but it will certainly help us manage, protect, and develop northern fisheries, while helping Canada stake its rightful claim to our northern continental shelf.
As I mentioned, my second topic concerns the matter of collaborative arrangements between fish harvesters and the department regarding the use of fish. You recently received my department's response to your follow-up questions on collaborative arrangements. You will recall the Larocque and APPFA decisions made in 2006. The issue was whether collaborative arrangements put in place years ago fit with legal decisions made in the Federal Court in these cases. In the wake of that, a number of agreements we had, arrangements we had with the fishing industry, were struck down.
In all, we have reviewed 206 activities and projects that could have been impacted by court decisions. In 2006, 68 out of the 206 agreements we have with different groups involved use of fish agreements in exchange for scientific or fisheries management activities; 138 did not. We reported this to you in February. You have asked for more detail and it's in our response.
To recap, all but two of the 68 arrangements have continued in a modified form that is consistent with the Federal Court decision. We have returned most allocations that were previously used to form joint projects to the total allowable catch. We've just put them back in the common pool. Thirteen allocations have remained with the fishing industry association or a community, but now they do not require help in the department with fish management or science. Eleven did not have a use of fish component, while the two that did no longer have an obligation to fund DFO activities.
I have always believed that the fish quota should go to fish harvesters, but in the past, special allocations were provided to some community groups. We are also continuing to review these allocations to make sure they are in line with court decisions.
The bottom line is that we're still gathering the data needed to run the fishery. This is thanks to an increase in our budget of $12 million per year until 2012 and to using the industry resources in a manner that complies with the court. Also, by reducing costs we're focusing on essential conservation information and exploring non-financial options for staying the course.
I'm satisfied these measures are minimizing the impact on my department's programs and services as well as on Canada's fish harvesters.
As I mentioned, to wrap things up, I'd like to say a few words about the coast guard.
We're well aware of the tragedy at sea that took the lives of four sealers—Bruno Bourque, Gilles Leblanc, Marc-André Déraspe, and Carl Aucoin—aboard l'Acadien II in March. This is a loss of the deepest order for their families, the community of the Magdalen Islands, and all of Canada.
I know that one of our colleagues, Monsieur Blais, was very, very close to that. We spoke often during that terrible tragedy, and he certainly did yeoman service for his people in that regard.
In the days following the incident, we sent an official from coast guard to the Magdalen Islands to provide support and information to the grieving families when the bodies of their loved ones were returned home.
I grew up in a fishing village, as did a lot of you. While Renews was a lot smaller than the Magdalen Islands, when we have a tragedy at sea, as we've all had—especially in places like the one Bill Matthews represents, and maybe more so than anywhere—we know what it's like and what effect it has, not only on the community but also on the whole area.
In circumstances like these, people want answers and they want them quickly. As you know, the coast guard is carrying out an internal incident safety review. That review is being led by an independent investigator, retired Rear Admiral Roger Girouard. I've met him, by the way, and I would think he is as fine a person as ever I've met. He certainly knows what has to be done, how to do it, and I have every belief he will do it well. His team will, of course, be cooperating with the RCMP and the Transportation Safety Board, which are also reviewing the matter. We want these investigations to be quick, but we also need to be thorough, so that when all the facts are clear we can proceed accordingly.
We have remarkable people in our coast guard, people who have dedicated themselves to serving others and who don't hesitate to put themselves in harm's way to save another. So this tragedy weighs heavily on their minds, too, I can assure you. Day in and day out, the coast guard does an awful lot of work for Canada. This, too, is worth noting. Even during these difficult times, our work continues. It is still our coast guard, and we are fortunate as Canadians to have it.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Thank you for the question and your comments on the Farley Mowat.
One of the interesting things about the sealing exercise—I include Paul Watson and his group on the Farley Mowat—was the solid support from everybody. It wasn't a petty political thing. It was something Canada had to do, should do. Regardless of who was there, it was something that should be done, and I certainly appreciate the support.
In relation to the herring, my own impression is that the Julianne III is not part of the equation this year and will not be part of the equation. I'll ask David Bevan to correct me on this if I'm wrong. We have asked the FRCC to have a look at herring. Herring is the fish that has given me more trouble than anything else. A lot of it is because of the ups and downs, the downturn right now, in the spring stock. The fall stock seems to be half decent. There are concerns about having enough for bait, and the cost of bait has certainly exacerbated the problem.
Fishermen are concerned about the herring stocks because they're so important to them. Yet when we fish it commercially, we get very little return compared with what others are getting in other parts of the country. So the whole thing leads to the need for a hard look. We need to maximize the philosophy that we've adopted with the provinces and the fishing groups—to get every cent we can out of the herring and fish it in ways that will keep jobs going and benefit the people.
We've always had a defined quota from the inshore, the gillnetters, and the seiners. But the poor old seiners have been banished everywhere. It's not for me to judge whether this is right or not, but they have no place to go at all. That makes it very difficult. And yet they have a quota.
I assure you that we will monitor it, so that whatever happens there will have no adverse effect on other fishermen—seiners, trawlers, border trawlers, or whatever. But they only have a quota. They only have so much. Whether they have three football fields or ten football fields, they can only catch what they have.
David, do you have an update on the Julianne III?
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Mr. Chair, again I thank Mr. Byrne for the question. Certainly it's one that has always been before the committee. The first day I sat on the committee it was the first issue we raised, and as a result of that committee, as I mentioned before, with the hearings and with pressures, the government of the day committed an extra $100 million over five years, $20 million a year. That ran out. Last year we made that permanent funding, not an extension of another two or three years, but permanent funding, adding $20 million to the base budget. On top of that we added an extra $11 million. So we have put $31 million a year into new funding. This year we've brought in $45 million over five years to deal with divestitures--because it's like interest on a credit card, soaking away our money--repairing and maintaining, trying to get rid of facilities we no longer need or want.
So we have a few more dollars to use. However, you can argue quite correctly that an extra 20% or 30% or 40%, or whatever we might have today...probably the cost of operating today compared to three or four years ago evens it out. So we're not making a lot more headway than we did. We're keeping our head above water.
Your own comments about the amount of money needed to really bring--if we're going to have very good facilities everywhere.... With the change in fishery, where we're seeing aquaculture becoming pretty important and requiring more facilities or more use of facilities, people going to larger boats, and a return of some of our groundfish stocks, we're seeing more activity than in the past, and we're seeing the shift from smaller communities to larger ones quite often, all requiring new money.
You mentioned Nipper's Harbour as a priority. We have many priorities out there, all equal, and we try to do what we can with what money we have.
Anything that goes on the website, unless it has been approved and okayed through the regular process and through the minister's office, is only a matter of many other jobs we have to do. Nothing is approved until it is approved by the minister, whoever he or she happens to be.
In light of that, when they tell you it's on the minister's desk...anything that comes on my desk doesn't stay there very long. Going to the minister's office is entirely different because that means final scrutiny and a number of levels of checks to make sure everything is in order. It's not something that's done down at the small craft harbours office in St. John's and sent up for signing. It becomes part of the total Canadian picture, the total Canadian budget, and then you go through your advisers, etc. We try to do it quickly, and we are very close.
I agree with you, the quicker we get those things out the door.... Quite often the announcements were made in mid-summer, but our announcements will be made long before mid-summer, and as quickly as I can make them. I won't give you a timeframe, but I will say certainly days rather than weeks or months.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Thank you, Mr. Blais.
I wonder if you would just give me the first...I missed the translation. I could pick up the French, but I couldn't hear it, and by the time I got the translation.... I just missed the first couple of words you said.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Thank you very much.
If I understand you, you're talking about the incident with the Acadian II and where we go from here. I thought there might be a specific request there that I missed.
Immediately after the incident, as I said in my opening remarks, we sent people from the coast guard—and there were other people there also, including some of my own staff—to the Magdelans to make sure we were on site, that people had someone to go to and talk to as all of this unfolded.
We committed at the time—and we have not changed that commitment—to find out exactly what went on. The first thing we found was their concern that the search for the missing fisherman had been called off quickly. We immediately, as you well know, because you worked with us on it, got that search going and did a complete, extensive search well above and beyond the area involved to make sure that nothing was missed.
I personally talked to representatives of the family, to the mayor, etc. We said we would do three things. One, we knew the Transportation Safety Board would carry out their regular thorough safety, long-term check, looking at everything involved. The RCMP were involved, and I think we should soon hear their report, because theirs is probably the one that will take the least time, to see if there was any wrongdoing. They will be reporting on that.
We, ourselves, did the internal...well, from within, but covering all aspects, a study that is usually done internally by the coast guard. Because of the involvement of the coast guard in this, we wanted to make sure it was transparent and objective, and we arranged, after a thorough search, to find somebody who knew how to deal with people, who understood marine life, and who was competent enough to make such a study. As I mentioned, we got Mr. Roger Girouard, to head that independent study.
From my own observations and our discussions with people, I think they understand fully that we are covering every base possible from every angle. The question is, what happens when we get the final details? That is strictly hypothetical, but I assure you and I assure the people that there is nothing here...there is no fooling around, there is no covering up. We are making an open, objective series of studies, and not only will we not interfere, but if we hear of anybody interfering, we will take action. We will make sure the people will have the truth of what happened, and after that we will continue to work with them.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Again, Mr. Chair, I thank the member for the question and his comments.
I agree with you totally. I was surprised, very surprised. It was done without any consultation whatsoever. There was no contact made with me or my department prior to an open public statement by the two premiers. I don't think it was helpful at all. Even if the industry people were thinking about banning the hakapik—they've had some discussions about the pros and cons that didn't last very long, for the reasons you mentioned—you'd be trying to use it to gain some favour. If you're going to give up something, what are you going to get? If you just say ban it, those others will just applaud and say that's great.
We banned the killing of whitecoats. What did it get us? Nothing. We stopped killing bluebacks. What did it get us? Nothing. If we ban the hakapik, what are we looking at next year? It will be the gun.
It was nonsensical. I didn't even react, because I thought that was the best thing to do. I didn't even comment. When asked sometime after, I just said that if we made any changes to the hunt they would be dictated by the industry, not by a provincial premier or by me. Industry will decide what they need.
The hakapik is not only used in areas like the Magdalen Islands or by the sealers from Prince Edward Island, for instance. It can be a lifesaver. Many of our sealers on the front were very upset about the comments, because they listed occasions such as when you fall off an ice pan and it's the only hope you have of getting back on the ice. For pulling seals, for retrieving, for a number of reasons, the hakapik is used.
Again, just to say let's give it up because of perception, look, we are here, you are here, I'm here to try to do the best for our sealers, not to do the best for the animal rights people and the protesters. That's the philosophy we have, and we'll live by it.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Thank you very much for the question.
You're right, you hear about our problems and our concerns on the east coast in certain species. The west coast has its own problems--salmon in particular. When you talk about the fishery, the icon out there is the sockeye. Even though some of the fisheries are doing relatively well, an exercise we went through about a year and a half ago, shortly after I came in and took a lot of flak for it originally--the groundfish integration plan--has worked out extremely well. It's been lauded by practically everyone involved.
We did a lot of work to minimize the costs that would be involved in bringing in such a plan, etc. It's enabled a lot of fishermen to continue to fish and catch species they depend on while sharing bycatch with other fishermen, etc. It's a total integration of the groundfish operation and it's been very successful. In some species they are doing very well.
When it comes to salmon, we have major problems. You never know, of course, until you get the returns, but the predictions this year, certainly on sockeye, are rather dim. In the way we look at sharing any fish, it doesn't matter if it's B.C. or anywhere else, conservation comes first, and it has to come first. If not, we're not going to have a fishery in the future.
In areas where we have first nations, the food, social, and ceremonial fishery comes next. We are very pleased with the input from first nations. Instead of dealing with them from afar, which might have happened for too long in the past, we've brought them around the table. They are heavily involved in decision-making. Last year we saw real leadership even in their food, social, and ceremonial component--not the commercial component, but in how much they caught and spread it to those who had less, etc. Again this year they're making some suggestions, knowing it will be tough and knowing that further up the stream some bands just won't have access to the fish, and they're talking about sharing, etc. That is laudable.
David can add to this, but for some of the species--chum, I believe--later on in the year it looks as if there might be a very good fishery. But again sockeye seems to be key, and even though it's only a small percentage of the total fishery on the west coast, it's like cod off Newfoundland. If you don't have cod, you have nothing, even though we make more money on the fishery than we ever did.
Do you want to add something to that, David?
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
If you want me to just pick up on that and on general costs.... Different departments, of course, have different costs in running the department. It depends on how many you have involved and where.
I'll tell you one thing, it's not the minister's entertainment. It started a scandal earlier in the year when they realized I had no entertainment during the three-month period; everybody wanted to know what I was covering up. You don't get time to entertain in this racket.
This department is not only national--you have an office across the country type of thing--but we are also a department that's on the ground. You have fisheries officers all over the place, habitat people all over the place, and that requires a fair amount of travel, etc. That stuff certainly adds up. But we are also heavily involved internationally, not only on the fishing files but with stuff like WTO, etc., all the different organizations. It's a department that is not cheap to run.
What we have been doing, and what we will continue to do.... If we didn't have as many daily crises that are so important to our fishermen, we could sort of sit back and say we're going to take a week to go through the department section by section to see where we can consolidate a bit more. We have people who do that.
We try to get the best bang for the buck. Are we ever perfect? I don't know. Are we perfect ourselves with our own budgets? There are always ways you can be more efficient, but sometimes saving money at the expense of not getting the job done is not the way to do it either. So there is that middle ground. But we all have to be conscious of that, to make sure we have the resources to enable us to do the job, but not to take advantage of that and be wasteful.
That's about all I can say to you.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
The federal and provincial departments quite often have their own acts under which they operate, and they have certain responsibilities. Some of them are similar; some are actually duplicates, to a point. Even if they don't have them in some areas, they pretend they have them or get involved, and that could happen on both sides.
When we came to the department, one of the things we did in relation to our work, particularly in relation to habitat, where you usually see this, whether it be in working with a community on a housing development, working in relation to problems caused by a river or a bridge or whatever, or whether we're talking about the part we play in the development of a mineral operation or a mine site, where we quite often become the lead department.... We're heavily involved with the tar sands, even though, as you know, there's probably not a lot of water or fish, but there's enough to cause us to be involved. In anything that affects fish or fish habitat, we are involved.
When environmental conditions are involved and we're doing inspections and whatever other studies, do we have to do it, and then does NRCan have to do it, and then does forestry have do it, and then does the provincial environment...? My answer to that is no. That's where, by working together, we can save a lot of time, money, and particularly a lot of aggravation for the proponents of whatever is going on.
One of the first things we did was amalgamate within and talk to the heads of our different divisions to see where we could be more concise within our own department. Then we set up key contacts with other departments, particularly NRCan and Environment Canada. These are the ones we work more closely with.
At the same time, the Minister of NRCan, Minister Lunn, was coming up with the idea of a major projects office, which speaks more or less to this, bringing all these assessments under one sort of umbrella.
We've developed a pretty good relationship with many provinces. I would point out particularly British Columbia, which has been front and centre; we do a lot of work out there. New Brunswick has been very cooperative, and P.E.I. has, and Nova Scotia, and we've worked closely with Newfoundland, to an extent.
It comes down to the relationships you build yourselves, when you can feel free, when you have that open relationship where you can sit and plan and agree beforehand on doing something. When you don't work together, when you don't talk to each other, when you're out to try to get one up on somebody else, it doesn't work.
I don't see a lot of that. I see a lot of cooperation coming. I think the time is right, Mike, to zero in on all these studies, whether for the small housing development or the tar sands project, to work with the provinces and the agencies to cut out duplication and waste and to set certain standards, whether for provincial involvement or federal involvement, as long as these standards are met and not compromised and time can be saved. Everybody benefits, and the people themselves are the winners in something like that.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Again, it sounds good. I say that because, first, we have a major chunk of infrastructure from coast to coast—I was going to say the coast; we're not necessarily on the third coast yet, but we're getting there. We need a lot of infrastructure out there. They have great resources, which they can't harvest unless they get wharves. I doubt whether there is a member here in the fishing province that doesn't have major problems with infrastructure. We're having a job even keeping our heads above water.
A long-term plan for wharves is not like a long-term plan for housing, where you can see the areas you can develop and get into it and so on. The wharf budget each year can be greatly dictated by a winter storm. If ice comes into the northeast coast and into the harbours, if you get the right wind, and if a half-dozen of Mr. Simms' wharves are demolished in active fishing areas, it could rearrange priorities entirely. I don't mean areas where one or two use a wharf and they have another one three miles up the road, but we probably have too much of that also. We might want to look at working with the fishermen themselves to see where we can consolidate and provide better facilities, but that's their call.
You can set a plan as to how much you're going to spend on wharves, how much you're going to spend on breakwaters, and how much you will do in divestiture, and we have that, to a point. But the actual work itself can be dictated, as I say, simply by a shift in fishing. People I know in one community, where we built a wharf that cost about $3 million some years ago—before my day—within five years had gone to bigger boats. They could no longer land where they were landing. The wharf was abandoned, and they all moved further up where we had to go spend more money. That's the problem we run into.
Does somebody want to get into the set-up?
Would you, Cal?
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Mr. Chair, let me give the first two questions to Mr. Bevan for very quick answers.
The halibut issue is one that was causing major concern. We've done major work on that and we are making headway. Dave will give you the specifics on that, and also in relation to the objection, which I'll also refer to him.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
It will come to the House. We've committed to bring it to the House, so we'll be bringing it there sooner rather than later.
By the way, I'm surprised we haven't had a question on overfishing on the nose and the tail and the Flemish Cap.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
We always talk about the fish, flatfish, cod, etc. To a large degree, the Greenland halibut, the turbot, is the concern now. That has been minimized, really. We are working on that, so I hope it will be better.
The treaties we'll bring to the House as soon as possible. On the commitment to extend the 200-mile limit, I'm not sure how you can do it.
The commitment we made was to end foreign overfishing and if necessary to take custodial management of the nose and tail and the Flemish Cap. Every definition I have from Mr. Matthews, Minister Rideout, and Premier Williams in relation to what they perceive as custodial management, we have met. Right now, that resource is being managed. It is not being overfished at all. There has not been one violation this year so far. There was one last year.
On the correspondence from Phil Fontaine, I would suggest that you also have a lot of correspondence—at least that's what I'm told—from fishermen who are telling you to get on with the job, to get this proposed act through committee and get it passed.
Why didn't we send it to committee before second reading? That was because it took 140 years to develop an outline of what we consider--and most of you, including some of your members who have been heavily involved in the fishery, and former ministers have said it will be a very good act with some massaging. Massaging can easily be done at committee. In fact, the major issues raised by the people around this table before the last change were taken care of. There is always a moving target. If we send a bill to committee before second reading, you will not see the same bill any more. It will be completely decimated and changed, so it is just as well to take it and throw it out the window. We saw that with any other bills we sent to committee.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
If we're going to get an act that is as good as we can get, the only hope is to use the framework we have. It took a long time to develop. We had a lot of input. You do what you can at committee, and in your consultations you have free rein, but at least we have a framework that covers everything and doesn't open it up so that it will be torn to shreds and we will never see an act. We work with a good framework or we just say, “Forget it, boys, we're not going to get a fisheries act”. It's as simple as that, really.
View Loyola Hearn Profile
CPC (NL)
Merci beaucoup, monsieur.
We are aware of that. We're seeing too much of our environment, our habitat, being changed because of development. I won't say it's being destroyed intentionally, though. The James Bay issue—and I'll have one of our officials speak directly to it—is certainly a concern of ours. We have spent a fair amount of time looking at it and working on it. We have to work with the local people to make sure we preserve the habitat. Geese, especially, are important to them. I drove through Ontario recently, and I think there are some people there who would like to see fewer of them. They're very plentiful. But they are a resource that we can't allow to become endangered, because a lot of people depend on it.
Does somebody want to pick up the James Bay question? Claire?
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