//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (0920)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Judd, do you think it's fair comment to say that the Treasury Board was negligent in protecting taxpayers' funds that were being misused, going overbudget to the extent that they did? Do you not feel that the Treasury Board was negligent in terms of doing something sooner? As our chairman said, it's kind of too little, too late. The horse is already out of the barn by the time you've shut the barn door.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0920)[English]But we're not talking about policy issues and resource issues. We're talking about an agency that came to you with a budget shortfall of $335,000. Whether they're a small agency or a big agency, I mean, does this happen all the time that it didn't ring bells, that here was a department that was obviously terribly overbudget? I don't imagine their budget is that large, but $335,000 should have rung a few bells of concern.JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]So could you tell me what's happened to the executive director who misled the Treasury Board?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]Did he get a bonus, a performance bonus?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]I don't want generically, I want specifics. I want to know, what happened to the individual who misled you, the Treasury Board? Is he still there, and did he get a performance bonus?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]You mentioned that you had a report going, trying to find out why the employees didn't come to the various levels of reporting with concerns that they had. Our understanding, from the report, is that they did. So perhaps you could explain to me a couple of things--first, why you were not aware that employees were reporting that there were problems in the agency, and second, what your report came up with.JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]Would you please table it with the clerk of the committee? We'd appreciate that.JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English] To whom did they not report or disclose, the Treasury Board?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]Is that with the Public Service Commission?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]That's with the Treasury Board.JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]Do all civil servants, all personnel working for the public service, know that's where they are to report to? Are they advised of that? Are they given reminders on a regular basis that this is who they are to report to?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]So a new employee may not know that this is where they are to direct their concerns.JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]Are you doing something to rectify that, to make sure that all present employees of the civil service know the proper process to register complaints?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]With the Auditor General's report, although she did indicate that she wants restitution, or she's suggesting that the individuals who got performance bonuses, and benefits that they shouldn't have, be required to return the money, if you will, I'd like to take it one step further. When we talk about performance bonuses, how on earth could you give anybody performance bonuses when they went overbudget? Isn't that part of a performance of an individual, that they are able to manage the resources they have, to manage the department in such a way that they fall under the guidelines? How is it possible that the Treasury Board would consider giving performance bonuses when there isn't a performance given?JimJuddJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0925)[English]Thank you.JimJuddJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0955)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to go back to a concern that I have in the system. You mentioned that you're setting up a policy, or that there is a policy in place that you're reviewing, for employees to raise their concerns. It's been brought to my attention that the policy is that a department or an agency appoints a senior officer to be the reporting mechanism. And I mean, this was a prime case of where the employees didn't feel comfortable because that senior officer was part of the problem.How can you expect a system where an employee who has problems with management is unlikely to go to management to report an issue of concern...? When you're looking at this review, are you looking at how a third party, maybe outside of the department, should be the person to report to?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]Is he with the Public Service Commission?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]An independent officer of...?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]So an employee of any department who's not in management is going to know that this office exists, and the phone number, and the accessibility of it?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]Because my understanding is that they're given a senior officer in their own department as being the person they're to report to.JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]When are they informed of this? At what point are they informed that this is in place?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]So you're assuming that every new employee of the government is going to go and read a huge policy manual to find that somewhere in this policy manual is something telling them where to go.JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]Do they have to sign off on it?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]So the employees themselves are then responsible for knowing that this in fact is in place to help them.What is the protection for an individual who...? This Mr. Keyserlingk, he's an independent, so I assume his information would not be shared with the department--or would it be? Would he go back to the department and say, “Your employee X has accused you of fraudulent behaviour or harassment”?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]So who's watching his budget? Who's making sure that he's not going to create this huge department that overspends $234,000?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]Is it Treasury Board who's responsible for his office?JimJuddJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1000)[English]Thank you.JimJuddJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1055)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would just like to point out that I still believe there are serious flaws with regard to people within an agency or a department seeing this kind of thing going on and being able to bring it to the attention of somebody who is going to be able to deal with it. Have I your assurance that you are looking at a proper reporting mechanism for employees to go to, that will have some benefit to the general public, where they will be protected?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1055)[English]Could I make a recommendation that the report be sent, when it is completed, to the chair of this committee for our review?JimJuddJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1055)[English]Thank you. JimJuddJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1100)[English]Yes.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1105)[English]Well, it would if the chair didn't precede our questioning.Thank you for appearing before us. I agree, you have told us a good news story about the future, but I would suggest that the PCO failed Canadians in the appointment of Mr. Radwanski. Although there are other very qualified individuals fulfilling roles of servants of Parliament, in this case there is a 20% failure rate. I understand there are five positions. Four of them seem to be great and one of them isn't. That's a 20% failure rate, and a very expensive failure rate when it comes to the respect of PCO appointments.There has been concern by parliamentarians in the past about how people get the jobs they do when they are Order in Council appointments. What is the vetting? What is the skill set you're looking for? How does an individual get vetted through the process? Do you think that maybe the PCO office should be allowing parliamentary committees—whose job it is, I would suggest, to make sure that government is operating properly—to vet the Order in Council appointments?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1105)[English]Before they're appointed, not after.MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1105)[English]Let's just clarify. These agents are appointed by the Prime Minister, not by Parliament. They are appointed by the Prime Minister. Parliament has very little or no say in their appointments.MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1105)[English]Can I just interject here? You knew that a position was becoming vacant and you had not gone out on a job search to find qualified individuals to fill that before it became vacant?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1105)[English]You knew the appointment was coming to an end at a certain period of time.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1105)[English]Did you start looking for somebody to fill that position prior to that termination?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1110)[English]My concern then is twofold--one, that there is no vetting by Parliament for an officer of Parliament, which there should be; and two, that when you know that somebody's term is coming to a close, why would you wait until that person has left office before you would seek to fill the position? It's not like he retired unbeknownst to you. It's not like he had a twenty-year appointment and he retired in three. You knew his term was coming to an end and you did nothing?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1110)[English]After he left, because of the urgency. MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1110)[English]Before he left.MichelleChartrandJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1120)[English]I would like a very brief yes or no response to this question: Do you accept responsibility for having made the appointment of Radwanski?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1120)[English]No, I just want a yes or no. As a Privy Council officer--MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]Okay. I'm going to interject. You mentioned the director of appointments. Under whom does that person work?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]Okay, so the PMO.MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]You said the Prime Minister's Office.MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]Okay. So the director of appointments works for the Prime Minister's Office. The PCO, under whom do you operate?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]So you in essence are under the Prime Minister's Office or under Parliament?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]Well, who is “the clerk”?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]So under the Prime Minister, then, again.Then we have Parliament, who you include in this. And Parliament is a rubber stamp, I would suggest; when the Prime Minister puts the name on the table, all of a sudden Parliament assumes the responsibility for this. I want to ask you a specific question. Do you have the approval of the Prime Minister-to-be that all appointments made under the Prime Minister's Office will be vetted by a parliamentary committee, whether it's government operations or the committee who is responsible for the area? And I mean all appointments. I heard earlier that the deputy heads are also appointed through the PCO.So if Parliament is going to be included in being responsible for these appointments, will the PCO, with the approval of the next Prime Minister of Canada, be submitting these names for approval before they are made? Before that job is awarded to an individual, will Parliament have the ability to say yea or nay, and to scrutinize that applicant?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]What policy?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]No, you're going away from my question. My question was...because it's not just the five people. We're also talking about appointments to semi-judicial bodies, we're talking about a whole bunch of other appointments that come from your office and from the Prime Minister's Office that Parliament becomes responsible for. I am asking if the PCO office is now going to vet those through parliamentary committees. If we're going to accept the responsibility for these people being out there, acting on behalf of Parliament, are you going to vet them before the appointments are made, through Parliament?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]You said there was a policy in place. Could you make that policy available to the committee?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]The policy that you use for appointing these positions. Would you make it available to the committee?MichelleChartrandMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]Thank you.MichelleChartrandJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1135)[English]May I suggest that the letter go to the clerk so that we all have access to it?RogerGaudetBerthier—MontcalmMichelleChartrand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I must say, I'm a little distressed to hear this. I happen to have been involved in the committee, I think the justice and legal affairs committee, where we talked about putting the two offices together, and the savings, and why that was going to be happening. It seems to me--and I don't know if it was you, sir--that there was some resistance at the time, and that the Treasury Board was pushing this joint operation. So it distresses me when I hear, from what you're saying, that you brought it to the attention of Treasury Board that something was happening, and they chose not to respond.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]No, but their response was in essence okaying what the Privacy Commissioner was doing. Their response was not to go in and say to the Privacy Commissioner, “This is not under the guidelines, this is not how the Treasury Board established these offices, and you will cease and desist.” Their response was in essence to say, “What he is doing is okay.” Would I be wrong in making that assumption?JohnReidHon.JohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]In other words, Treasury Board was aware, at a point before the Auditor General's report came out, that there were some serious problems going on.JohnReidHon.JohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]And your annual report would have been tabled when?JohnReidHon.JohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]So in May-June of 2002, you had a report to Parliament that flagged this issue, and yet the Treasury Board didn't respond. They waited until the Auditor General's report of 2003 came out.JohnReidHon.JohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]So you had made a direct appeal. Who in the Treasury Board did you approach on this issue?JohnReidHon.JohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]So on the response from the president of the Treasury Board, was there no follow-up from somebody in the Treasury Board department? I mean, your letter went to the president, but somebody must have been back in touch with you to get some clarification as to what your concern was.JohnReidHon.JohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1150)[English]So not only did the Treasury Board know about this, but the president of the Treasury Board knew that something was going on in your office that was outside the boundaries of what the Treasury Board guidelines would have been when they merged the two offices. Is that right?JohnReidHon.JohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1150)[English]Okay, but what I'm trying to get from you is that we heard from the Treasury Board representative this morning that this was all news to them until the Auditor General's report came out. I'm hearing from you that there were indications prior to this, that they knew something was amiss with the Privacy Commissioner's office.JohnReidHon.JohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1150)[English]Thank you. JohnReidHon.John G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1150)[English]With all due respect, Madam Fraser, what I understand Mr. Reid to say is that he indicated that the reason.... This merger of the offices was quite a conflict of the day when it happened. There was a lot of debate going on as to why it should happen, keeping the independence of the offices, not wanting to be together. I assume Treasury Board gave them guidance and direction that they were to merge. And all of a sudden we have one of the merged partners acting as an independent again. I would suggest that this would have been an indicator that there was a problem.SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1150)[English]I need clarification here. So you're trying to convince me that the Treasury Board would not have known that it would not be cost-neutral, that there would be cost to the other half of that partnership?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1150)[English]But I think Mr. Reid indicated that there were management problems.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1155)[English]Ask him if he was in favour of the split.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohnReidHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1545)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to Ms. Fraser, Ms. Elliott, Mr. Lahey, Mr. Burton, and Ms. Laurendeau for attending.I notice that you feel you did gain.... You gave in here four areas where you felt you could take from the 12 years of exercise and use that—or at least that's what I assume you're telling us—in the next review. But I didn't see anything in here or hear anything that gave me any confidence that you had reviewed what went wrong with the last 12 years—why it didn't work, why you vacated that program, and why you're starting a new one. I didn't hear anything about your doing an evaluation on what was wrong with attempt two, and how you were going to do things differently with attempt three. Did you evaluate the last 12 years and come to some conclusions as to why that process didn't work?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]One thing I haven't heard in your comments with regard to your evaluation of job classification in your workforce is what you're going to do with redundancy. If you're finding, in this re-evaluation, that you have people who are redundant to the operations, is that also being considered?I say this because one of the concerns I hear when I talk to people about the civil service is the size, the growing size of it. For instance, the issue came up about the 20% increase over the last four years in the management level of the bureaucracy, There's a feeling out there that this is becoming just this monolithic group of people that nobody has a whole lot of control over.I guess from this chapter, and from the comments about learning some lessons but still breaking it down into manageable sizes, what I'm hearing supports what people are concerned about: You have this monster that has reached a point where you can't control it. You can't reclassify it. You can't get rid of people who no longer really have a role. What makes you think attempt number three is going be any different from attempts one and two?JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]But with all due respect, you have major corporations and large organizations in the private sector that have the same kind of diversity, and they seem to handle it. They can make the divisions between a guy with a medical degree and a guy who's pushing a broom. They don't seem to have difficulty saying, “This is what it's worth for a guy who has umpteen years of university and who has a responsible position, and this is what it's worth for somebody in janitorial services.”Why is it so difficult that, after 12 years of looking at it and spending a couple of hundred million dollars, you couldn't have come to grips with it?JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]It's 40 years old.JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]Forgive me if I come across as being really skeptical on this, but this just seems like a great job creation project, quite honestly. I'm horrified to hear, on the example that Mr. Forseth put on the table, that government is slower to react; that we can't replace people; that we have to keep people on. When I asked you about redundancy in job classifications, you didn't really give me a definitive answer. What I hear is that in the public service, people have stability. They don't get laid off. They don't get moved around. If their job becomes redundant, they get shuffled off to find some other place for them. And yet we're paying them.... We try not to lead in the job payment? What happened to the days when there was a trade-off between job stability and making a little bit less than in the private sector? Does that no longer hold?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]Just let me break in there. Did the people actually leave government service or did they just move to this other entity? Because my understanding is that a person doesn't really lose their job; they go into a lateral kind of holding position and sit there until another job is found for them.So when you say you lost thousands of jobs, is that because people went and found something else, or did they just go into the warehouse?JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]They were no longer hired by the Public Service of Canada.JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]What percentage are we talking about of redundant jobs that disappear from the civil service? For instance, when you reclassified, how many jobs did you feel were there that shouldn't have been, that there wasn't a need for?JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]So when do you address that, at what point? Is it only at budget time?JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]So there isn't another process that says, “We have this program going and we find we're 20% over-hired for this program, so we really don't need these people”? If you keep getting the money through the budgetary process, you keep that 20% on?JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Just to follow up on your comments in response to Mr. Forseth, if you're bring the pay in line with the private sector, are you also bringing in the merit principle, where if you're not doing the job, and you're showing that you're incapable of doing the job, you're let go, the same way you would be in the private sector? Is there still this protection--being in the civil service, being under a union contract--that doesn't allow you to remove an employee who shows themselves not qualified or capable of earning the private sector salary they're getting?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]How is it, then, as we've heard many times in this committee, performance bonuses are considered to be just part of the pay package and have absolutely nothing to do with performance? We have an organization--and I won't name it, but I'm sure people around here will remember--that had a 60% turnover in staff because of poor management, and yet all of the managers were still getting their performance bonuses.JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]So what you're trying to assure me is that steps are being taken to make sure a person is given a proper salary based on what they could get in the private sector; that their expectations would be equally as high; that they could be replaced if they were not performing; and that they certainly wouldn't be getting performance bonuses if they weren't earning it by their performance.JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]Thank you. I'm going to hold you to that in a year's time.JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]That's the question I'd like to ask. When you're doing this review, if you have a manager for 30 people and then you end up in a situation where you have managers for one- and two-person teams, where do you draw the line at the number of managers you have? If everybody says, “Well, this is our little group, and we're separate from those guys”, and then you find you need a manager for that, you could just create one heck of a nightmare in the upper management level where, with every two people, one's a manager and one's an assistant manager because they do a different thing from the guys down the way. When do you ever look at that kind of thing?JamesLaheyBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]And that's not an anomaly. That would appear to me, from the outside, to be the norm in government services--three people with two managers.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]Still, that's 40,000 people who supervise one person?JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]But there are situations where you have a small group, such as the Groupaction people, where you have a handful of people and a whole bunch of managers. It doesn't make sense. To the layperson out there who's paying the taxes to pay these people, it doesn't make sense.JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]Well, I would argue with you that when you see cuts in human resources, and I don't care whether it's at the school board level or at the federal government level, the cuts seem to happen at the delivery of the service as opposed to the management level. So if you need to save money, and you find out that you have six less immigration officers at the intake site but you still have the two or three managers who now have less people to supervise.... Until somebody comes to grips with that aspect in your “re-” job classification, or wherever you deal with that, at some point you have to say, gee, we have so much money, maybe we should be cutting some at the management level.JamesLaheyJamesLahey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1650)[English]I have three very quick questions. Does Canada do any pre-clearance at U.S. airports? Will there be the same identity card that can be used at all border points coming into Canada or leaving Canada? Is there going to be an appeal process for the denial of NEXUS for minor agricultural violations?BernardPatryPierrefonds—DollardJohnManleyHon.Ottawa South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]Thank you.JohnManleyHon.Ottawa SouthBernardPatryPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1540)[English]Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Fraser and staff, for appearing before the committee.I'm going to deal with the two reports you have problems with. One is the performance reporting.How is it possible that departments are going to be honest and upfront and be critical of their performance if they may lose their funding to continue that project, whether or not they get a reprimand for not having performed to the level to which they're expected to perform? How is it possible that with self-reporting in departments you're ever going to get an honest evaluation?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]So what I'm hearing from you is that the committees would have to assume the responsibility in holding the departments to a standard of performance reporting that they are at this time not putting forth.SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]But I look at the nine departments you audited for this performance report section--defence, justice, the RCMP, the Solicitor General's department.... You're talking about departments that normally don't share information and don't have the interest in sharing information. So giving them the responsibility of self-reporting on their performance I think is wasting time.I'm going to move on to the other one, the $2 million the government spent over a 12-year period on job reclassification and then they dumped it. They literally just walked away from it. Now they're going into a third attempt, and I think the concern is that they don't really have any vision of how this attempt will be any different from attempts one and two. How do you find it? Are you satisfied with the potential third attempt that they're going to make in job reclassification?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Is it the problem that 50% of the staff fall into what I'd heard referred to as a “red circle”, where their salaries are either way above the norm or way below the norm, so it's really hard to bring them into line? How are they ever going to come to grips with that?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Do you feel this concern has been addressed or has been at least been raised with the people who are negotiating, such as the various unions that are representing the workforce for the government? Do you feel they understand what the problem is and that collectively they need to sit down and start addressing some of these inequities?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Are they willing to work through this?MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Do you feel it is going to resolve some of the issues if you have the classification people who are sorting out how much people are getting paid, all in the same department? Do you feel that it's going to resolve some of the discrepancies?MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]It is not bargained?MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]So then it's a question of sorting out the classification and getting the unions to understand the value for work under that classification. MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Is that where it broke down in the previous attempt?MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]So how is the third attempt going to manage that reconciliation? Are they going to start from the beginning again?MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1605)[English]Ms. Fraser, that brings up a new issue. Did you look at the percentage of new blood coming into the civil service through this new measure, or is it still a case that the old tried-and-true keep moving up and up and the new people get to apply but don't really get hired? Did you evaluate how much new blood is coming into the civil service?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1610)[English]Okay. What I really want to ask is on the citizenship and immigration chapter, chapter 3. We've run into this before, where the information we get from the departments is a little bit misleading, where it doesn't properly reflect reality. I noticed that you raised this issue in this report, that particularly when it came to the independent immigrants and business or economic immigrants, the numbers reflected the spouses and children, the dependants as well as those who were coming in. Did you get any assurance from the department that they're going to change that kind of reporting and that they're going to be a little bit more honest and upfront with that? MariaBarradosSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1610)[English]Right. SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1610)[English]You also seem to have problems with the quality assurance reporting--exhibit 3.3. I guess it's not reporting, but the whole process of measuring the quality of the delivery of the service. I think the comment I've heard is that there is a lot of planning, thinking, and proposals, but there hasn't been any improvement in the last two years, and certainly there are no new instruments or any new directions being given. Is that a fair...? Although they're talking about it, it's not a priority with them and they're really not doing a whole lot. SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1610)[English] Thank you.ShahidMintoJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1545)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you to the Auditor General's department and to the members from the defence department.The thing I find interesting more than anything else is that there does seem to be a contradiction between what the Department of National Defence is telling us and what the Auditor General's department is telling us. Ms. Ellis, you said they identified only a few instances in which your performance was less than satisfactory, and you'd already taking corrective action in most of these cases. Yet the Auditor General has pointed out that the findings did not agree with the department's 2000-2001 performance report stating MAPS had been implemented on those bases. Why the discrepancy, Mr. McRoberts?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainHughMcRoberts//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Your comment, I believe, was that only a third had been implemented.WendyLoschiukWendyLoschiuk//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]So when they say almost all cases have been corrected, that has not been substantiated, as only a third of the corrective actions would appear to have been taken. Would you agree with that, Ms. Ellis?WendyLoschiukKarenEllis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Only one-third.KarenEllisKarenEllis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]With regional decisions or local decisions, qualitative or quantitative, what happened in Gagetown? Apparently, the staff didn't really have authority to enter into any kind of contract to remove the trees, to get into land clearance. Where did they get the direction to clear the land?I guess the concern is that somebody took it upon themselves to clear some land and put out, I understand, 50 contracts. They got about two-thirds of the value the Canadian Forest Service feels they should have got for it. It's really a question not of whether it happened, but of whether you have implemented a process to make sure that kind of thing does not happen in the future, that the local headquarters or whoever has full control to make sure all acts of the government are complied with and this sort of thing doesn't happen again. Have you made some serious changes in the way you proceed?KarenEllisKarenEllis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]I come to the comments you made regarding Nanoose Bay. Sitting on the mainland side of that whole area, I find it a little distressing that you would take a report that says dumping ammunition and contaminated batteries and materials into that bay is not harming the fish population. I don't know if you're aware of the problem with the salmon stock that coast is having. I find it incredible that you would assume from a report taken a number of years ago that you're off the hook. Do you feel you have no commitment in the Nanoose Bay area to make sure contamination from dumping materials in that bay is not having an effect?KarenEllisKarenEllis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1615)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is for the Auditor General's department. You've heard the testimony from the Department of Defence that their environmental and sustainable development is, according to the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, among the best in government. The defence department feel they're doing a really good job in dealing with this. Do you support that statement from them? Do you feel they're the best in government and are doing a really good job, responding the way they should be responding?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainHughMcRoberts//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]Part of the concern was that they had to be asked twice. It was pointed out once, and nothing was done, it was pointed out a second time, and maybe something was done. Do you feel you have heard a commitment from National Defence to actually do something, rather than just studying it, rather than just acknowledging it, rather than knowing it exists? Have you heard anything today that gives you some confidence that National Defence is going to get on with the program and actually do something? I may be putting you on the spot, but I know what I've heard, and I want to understand what you have heard.HughMcRobertsHughMcRoberts//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]What was the response from the department to your audits?HughMcRobertsHughMcRoberts//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]Thank you.HughMcRobertsBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1550)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the Auditor General's office and the corrections office for appearing before us.I listened with interest and highlighted that you're opening secure units within regional sites to replace the co-located units in men's facilities. I was under the impression you had opened facilities strictly for women across the country when you closed Kingston. Was that not what happened?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]Just to jump in there, then, I understood that in British Columbia you had an arrangement with the province to share a facility that in my understanding was either closed down or cut back substantially, and that you have once again moved back into housing women in a facility right next to the institution where you have criminally insane or whatever you want to call them. I guess it's called a psychiatric unit.LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]And my understanding of Matsqui is it's one of these institutions where you would have male individuals who are right across a fence from the new female population. Is this not right?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]It's more than “in the same physical part of British Columbia”. Is it not right next door to the Matsqui Institution, as we know it today?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]Any linkage?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English] I actually had a tour of the Kingston facility before you closed it down. It struck me that women were not treated anywhere near the same as men in institutions simply because of the low numbers. Where some of them could have gone into minimum security, medium security, or maximum security, for all intents and purposes, women were all housed the same way. There wasn't a distinction, as there was in the male population.Have you made any attempt to separate the maximum, minimum, and medium security requirements for women?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]Okay, but the Auditor General seemed to feel that perhaps the assessment tools you were using might not be reliable for making the distinction between maximum, medium, and minimum security requirements when you were dealing with women.Do you have a separate assessment program for women, or do you just use the male assessment program and plunk it into the women offenders and feel that's going to give you the answers you want?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]Okay. What about the employment preparation aspect? When I look at your list, I don't know what you pay a dog groomer and I don't know what you pay a seamstress, but why are the women not being offered furniture building or groundskeeping or something that may pay a little better when they are reintegrated into the community? Why would you take traditional kinds of women's jobs and focus on that, rather than giving them a greater opportunity of income to assist them in raising their families or in being able to look after themselves, to prevent criminal behaviour?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]As I've run out of time here, my final question is whether or not you have done an action plan to implement the recommendations from the Auditor General. LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]Would it be possible for you to provide that to the committee?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]Thank you.LucieMcClungJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I heard you say that you've brought in a lot of new programs for women and that you feel that they're working. I would suggest that your numbers show a fairly high degree of success, but the Auditor General did point out that 22% of women had their correctional plans finalized less than a month before their first parole eligibility date, or after that date had already passed. When you were asked whether it was a question of resources or money or whatever, you gave me the impression that you felt you had enough resources and money, which begs me to ask, why do you have such a high percentage of late correctional release plans to manage those individuals, who aren't that many, when you feel you have enough resources, staff, and money? Why do you have such a high number that aren't being finalized early enough to do any good?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]Let me jump in for just a minute here.So you have an inmate who comes into the system. They're assessed to create a correctional plan of what treatment they need, what facility they should be in, and how they should be handled. Right?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]When I asked earlier about whether you have a minimum, maximum, or medium security separation of women, I thought you told me you did have.LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]Do they go for the pre-assessment?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]So the facility has minimum and medium. Where are the maximum security people, who require greater intervention?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]So what happens to the maximum security inmates?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]So they come there, they're in the facility, and they get their assessment. At what point do they have a correctional plan put together?LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]Just for clarification, so 22% have their correctional plans finalized less than a month before their first parole eligibility date. Does this mean that it's the minimum security inmates who are going to be out on statutory release or some kind of parole—LucieMcClungLucieMcClung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]I'm fine.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]No, thank you. John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1815)[English]I will keep my comments very short; I wasn't really planning on making a presentation. I think my concern with this new piece of legislation is that it seems to be rather undemocratic, and there are a couple of issues. One, it recognizes the strength of a party today, and we have seen in Canadian history a number of times when there were major swings in support by the electorate, for example, in 1993 with the Tories and in 1988, I believe, when the Liberals ended up with 40 seats. I think there would be a problem if this bill was brought into the House when the Liberals were sitting there with 40 members of Parliament. It strikes me as being undemocratic if it's based on the strength of a party. If all the parties got the same amount of money right across the board, then that would be something different.The other thing you have to deal with is the fact you have smaller populations in some of the ridings. My understanding of this bill is, it's based on $1.50 per person or per capita or per voter you represent. You have Atlantic Canadian provinces that are going to be running elections with a lot less money than somebody in my situation, where I have a larger population. Somehow you're going to have to come to grips with the fact that you're going to have some constituency associations that may not have enough money to put signs on the lawns and others that have more than enough. I think that discrepancy is going to present a problem down the road.The other thing I'm concerned about is, most of us--and I can only speak for myself--operate with volunteers. When you have a massive reporting mechanism, you're asking volunteers to do something they may not be prepared to do or may not have the experience or expertise to do. To have to hire auditors to audit accounts and answer to the government is an expense we all are aware of. I believe we're allowed $1,600 to audit our election returns. I don't know about your constituencies, but in mine that doesn't cover the cost. The balance of it is thrown in as a donation or as a volunteer aspect. So the cost of having accounting processes in our constituencies might be a lot more than the value of this exercise. As a political party we don't depend on and we don't get a lot of corporate donations, so the fact that you're restricting them doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is--and I think Stan mentioned this--all of a sudden something that's transparent becomes non-transparent. You can have a corporation that can't donate more than $1,000 but you might have 10 board members who can donate $10,000. Instead of it being where this corporation has a vested interest and wants to donate to a candidate or a party, all of a sudden it's 10 individuals not necessarily associated with that corporation who are financing it. Now, that's not very transparent. If we're accused of being biased towards those people who are financing our election, it seems to me that 10 people from one corporation funding a constituency association is going to make for a whole lot more pressure than one corporation as an entity. I would like to have that recorded as the comments I have to make and leave it at that.PeterAdamsHon.PeterboroughPeterAdamsHon.Peterborough//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1820)[English]What is more evident is the fact that if the donation came from the company headquarters or as a company cheque, it would be very clear what entity is in fact financing it. This way, it's under the table and it's not as transparent, I would suggest. You may see that John Smith works at the same office as Joe Blow, but in a reporting mechanism they're going to be in alphabetical order, and you're not going to make that connection unless somebody takes the time to look at all the individuals and put it together. This is as opposed to, here's the corporate donation, it's up front, and it's clear where it's coming from.I just think it's another way of getting around it, and it's going to be used.DickProctorPalliserPeterAdamsHon.Peterborough//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1540)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Auditor General and Mr. Dorais, for appearing before us on Citizen and Immigration matters.I listened to the plans you have to move forward on this, and I applaud you for doing some of the screening overseas, for bringing the numbers from 30% to 70%, but I gather from your comments that when somebody makes a refugee claim upon arriving in Canada, you still give them an appointment to appear for their interviews and what not. You made mention in your remarks that all asylum claimants are now subject to a full security examination upon arrival, and you're vetting advanced information on passengers to better target your inspection. To me, that is contradictory, unless you are changing your process. Are you?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]In some circumstances or in most circumstances?MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]So when a plane arrives from overseas and you have a large number of people coming into Immigration making these claims, they're not given appointments to come back? MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]So what happens if you're unable to get the security information you require to make a determination when they first come across the border, when they arrive on an airline? What do you do with these individuals?MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]What one do you normally use?MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]So with these 36,000 individuals who have been given deportation orders, but have not yet been removed, does the process I have just described catch them all, or are we missing some people who never showed up for interviews, and so never entered the legal process per se, or did they enter the legal process the minute you did the initial interview with them and took their fingerprints?MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]So the 36,000 does not at all capture those people who are still going through the process. We are only talking about those people who have gone through the process, so the numbers really are much higher than 36,000.MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]So how many people have gained access to refugee claimant procedures and have not had their orders finished? How many people are we talking about?MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]You don't know, you don't keep records of how many people you've allowed into our country who haven't finished their process?MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]So could you provide this committee with a full determination of the numbers of the people who have come into our country, claimed refugee status, but have not yet been given deportation orders? Could you please provide that information at some point to the committee?MichelDoraisDanielJean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]That's in a one-year period.DanielJeanDanielJean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]I want to go back to one of the concerns the Auditor General pointed out, the quality, scope, and use of information needed to manage, control, and enforce. If you're not keeping track all along the way in a very manageable way of how many people are coming into our country, how many people are being processed, how many people are in this process, that process, that should be part of the ongoing number games you play with. That's the only way that you're going to have concept of how to manage the numbers. If your numbers were correct, the Immigration and Refugee Board have a backlog of 53,000 cases as of December 2002. Those are pretty hard numbers to manage. What I want to know from you is what processes you have put in place to manage those kinds of numbers.MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]To whom will you be reporting this process? Will you be reporting to Parliament?MichelDoraisMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]Thank you.MichelDoraisJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]When you talk about genuine refugees, is there not a process where refugees are identified overseas, placed in camps, and held there until a place has been found for them? Is that not a genuine refugee?And on the cards, I would like to think these cards identify a landed Canadian with some biometric, fingerprint, eye scan, whatever, so that they can't be forged, the card has a unique feature that applies to that individual, so it can't be duplicated.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMichelDorais//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]The heating fuel rebate was an emergency measure two or three years ago. Why would we still be making payments on it?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]Yes, it was quite a while ago. RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]But these apply to the fuel costs from the year 2000. RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]And it's taken three or four years to get them through the system?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]But how many more years do you make adjustments on something that affects emergency fuel use? Why are we just adjusting the GST now? Why is it just coming up now?RichardNevilleJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]I would hope so.JohnMorganRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]What's the purpose of this? I'm new to this. Is it just not to report the individual's name to maintain a privacy thing? Why are you coming?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1715)[English]My presentation is very simple, Madam Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee.I want to start off by saying I think the commission in British Columbia has done a reasonable job, a fine job of putting together the parts and picking the areas that have fast growth and what not.I would like to put on record, though, that I still feel that the whole redistribution across the country is not adequate, is not equitable. There is such a complete discrepancy between one province and the other, between the number of citizens a member of Parliament represents. I believe that in British Columbia, Alberta, and Ontario it is still relatively high, well over 100,000 people. In Quebec, I believe it's somewhere around 78,000 or 79,000. In Saskatchewan, I believe it's down to 50,000 or 60,000, and in Prince Edward Island it's down to 38,000 or something. So I would like it to go on record that I think Canada should seriously look at the principle of one person, one vote, and come to grips with the regional disparities in the representation in the House of Commons.Having said that, I do feel that under the present situation, the commission did do a fine job in British Columbia in sorting out the various areas. The only comment I have is that to represent properly the breakdown of my riding or the proposed new riding, the name should be changed to South Surrey--White Rock--Cloverdale, the reason being that South Surrey has the bulk of the population, with a small population of I believe 18,000 in White Rock, and some 20,000 in the Cloverdale area.I don't have my notes in front of me, so I'm really going just--PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]I'm trying to get my head around Indian Affairs and housing to boundary distribution.PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]It would be South Surrey--White Rock--Cloverdale, because the new boundary takes in the small community in Surrey that is known as Cloverdale.RickBorotsikBrandon—SourisLibbyDaviesVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]No, Langley will have their own riding. The township of Langley and the city of Langley would constitute a brand-new riding called “Langley”. It has no Surrey in it. So there would be one new riding to the east of the new South Surrey--White Rock--Cloverdale, Cloverdale being just north of the railway track there, the top northeast corner of the riding. The city of Langley and Langley township would be to the immediate east and would constitute their own riding.LibbyDaviesVancouver EastLibbyDaviesVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Most of it.LibbyDaviesVancouver EastLibbyDaviesVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]I would think so, because most of Cloverdale would go--LibbyDaviesVancouver EastLibbyDaviesVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Cloverdale is right along Highway 10--LibbyDaviesVancouver EastLibbyDaviesVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]This is Cloverdale right here. Cloverdale transects highway...this highway here is Highway 99.Just above the railway track, right about here, is Highway 10. Cloverdale is right around here. Downtown Cloverdale would be somewhat in here. Housing goes all the way up into Surrey. This would be Newton area here--what's referred to as Newton, Panorama Ridge, and Cloverdale in here.I don't take all of Cloverdale.LibbyDaviesVancouver EastLibbyDaviesVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]This area right in here would also be Cloverdale, right south of the railway track. South Surrey is mainly this area here--Crescent Beach, this area going out all the way in here. This is largely rural farm area along here, with new housing starting up.The mayor of Surrey said South Surrey area is the fastest-growing area in the city of Surrey, which is the fastest-growing city in Canada right now. The population is concentrated basically in the South Surrey area, with Cloverdale being a pocket up there.I don't imagine I would take in all of Cloverdale, but certainly the majority of it.LibbyDaviesVancouver EastLibbyDaviesVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English] It is a community. Surrey is made up of Walley, Guildford, Cloverdale, Newton, and now the new one, with the new riding--I think it's Green Timbers. LibbyDaviesVancouver EastRickBorotsikBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Because only South Surrey represents the other aspect. Cloverdale's a distinct little community that has its own identity; that's what I'm trying to say. They are considered South Surrey, but it recognizes it's distinct. There's a Cloverdale rodeo, which is recognized as one of the major rodeos in the North American rodeo circuit. It has its own identity. I just thought it would be appropriate to recognize that. I don't have Langley city any more. I now have the big community of Cloverdale, which is part of the city of Surrey.RickBorotsikBrandon—SourisLibbyDaviesVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]No.LibbyDaviesVancouver EastRickBorotsikBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]I don't have the stats in front of me, I apologize. I would think probably in the neighbourhood of 60,000.... No, it couldn't be 60,000; that would be South Surrey. I would think in Cloverdale alone, probably 17,000, 20,000. RickBorotsikBrandon—SourisRickBorotsikBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]Because South Surrey refers to that area--PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]What you're seeing there is South Surrey. This little part right here is White Rock. All of this area here is South Surrey.PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]White Rock is the city of White Rock--17,000, 18,000 people in a very confined space built on a hill.PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]South Surrey is the main community around it.ScottReidLanark—CarletonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]It would be referred to as a portion of South Surrey. South Surrey is probably all of that part that would be in the bigger picture.PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]No.PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]But it's going north of Cloverdale.PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]Yes. This map is not completely honest, because the area is growing so quickly. Where you see very little development on the other side of Highway 99, there is now a very large number of communities that are developing. Every time I go home there are probably another 100, 200, 300 homes up. Some of this area here is under the agricultural land reserve, so it is somewhat protected. You have dairy and berry farms and what not in there. So that does separate Cloverdale from the bulk of the population on the peninsula.ScottReidLanark—CarletonScottReidLanark—Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]So my request is for the name South Surrey--White Rock--Cloverdale.PaddyTorsneyHon.BurlingtonPaddyTorsneyHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1545)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you for appearing. I have experience with aboriginal housing. I spent 15 years in northern Alberta, where we had Métis communities as well as reserve communities. So I'm very aware of the issues with aboriginal housing. I'm really interested in your looking towards a shared responsibility with private partners. How are you going to reach that when there's no land ownership involved on reserves? Where is the benefit for a private corporation or private entity to get involved in housing costs?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Would these--JoanAtkinsonJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]You're breaking my whole train of thought here.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Thank you.If you're looking at private partnerships and you have found some reserves where this is in fact happening, I would have to suggest that it's probably only with those reserves where there is economic development, in other words, there is revenue coming into the reserve, a potential cash flow, if you will, that there's some security for the private lenders. This is obviously not going to work on reserves where there's no economic development, where there's no creation of wealth, where they're totally dependent on the largesse of government. Those reserves, because there's no land ownership, still would be in a position where private partnerships are not going to work. Your policy, if I understood correctly, is not intended to ever cover the full cost of housing, but is merely to help them purchase it. How are you ever going to make up for the deficiency in housing if there's this spread?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]With that in mind, I get back to the criticism the Auditor General has placed on the table, the complexity of the housing program, the horrendous amount of paperwork they have to go through, the number of agencies they have to deal with. That in itself is a costly process. Has the department looked at reducing the onerous paper trails and tracking, not to say some isn't necessary, but to get rid of the duplication and make the process less complex and as efficient as you can?JoanAtkinsonJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]Who is ultimately responsible for meeting the national building standards? Is it CMHC? Is it Indian Affairs? Is that your part of the program? Who is responsible for making sure the money is actually going into building these homes at a standard that's acceptable, rather than being used for other purposes outside housing, but channelled through the housing budget?JoanAtkinsonJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]Have you ever enforced that? Do you find on some reserves that the money's not being appropriately spent, that there's a deficiency regarding the building code, and that they lose their funding? Do you ever enforce those conditions you place on them?JoanAtkinsonJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to continue where my colleague left off. I just heard you mention a building code a band has adopted as its own. Are you telling this committee a band can adopt a building code that falls short of the national building code or a provincial code?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertDouglasStewart//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]What if they were to seek Indian Affairs funding? Can they get Indian Affairs funding with substandard building codes?DouglasStewartJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]So for the most part, if they're using CMHC funding or Indian Affairs funding, they are building to a national building code. I want to go back to something the Auditor General's report pointed out, I believe, that community housing plans are developed, but they're not followed. The community housing plans would probably indicate where schools are supposed to be, where houses are supposed to be, roads, infrastructure, that sort of thing. I would assume that when you go through that process, there is an intent to form a viable community with all the aspects of what it takes to have a community be successful. Is economic development part of that community plan? And what guarantees are there that the community plan is going to stick around through a change of band administration? There's a third question I'm going to throw in. You talk about the responsibility of the homeowner to maintain and you see that as an important part. I don't disagree with you, but how can you hope a person's going to look after a piece of property when they have no ownership of it and when there's a concept out there that the government will replace it if something happens to it? When they have no ownership, how can you expect them to be responsible for it?JoanAtkinsonJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]On ownership, you can come up with ownership plans to give them pride, but if somebody has a home and looks after it, there's no guarantee that the chief of the day is not going to take that away from them. There's no guarantee that if they put money into fixing it up, there will be anything there for them. That's what I mean by ownership. There's no control on that individual. MariaBarradosJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.So $137 million a year is budgeted for building new homes every year.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English] How many houses are taken off the inventory each year?JoanAtkinsonJoanAtkinson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]Could you provide to this committee a breakdown of the number of houses you would consider, from these reports, to have been taken off the inventory list, what we might call disposable housing?GillesRochonGillesRochon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]For $137 million, but you're saying some of that is for maintenance, some of it is probably for subdivision development, changing sewers and water. Would that go into there as well? If they got a new water system in the community and started hooking everybody up, would that be part of the housing budget?GillesRochonGillesRochon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]And it's more than the $137 million?MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]Do you know how much more?MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]A year?MariaBarradosMariaBarrados//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1540)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Madam Fraser and your colleagues, for again bringing to Parliament's attention some issues in the accounting and functions of government. The whole audit was based on risk management, and you made a couple of comments about various departments having programs in place for several years, but basically not using the programs, not following through, not making the most of them. Did you get the feeling in your audit process that this is because they haven't bought in to the new risk management processes, or is it just that they don't recognize the importance of them? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]But my question was, did you get the feeling in your audit that those senior managers, the people who are responsible for making these changes work, have bought into it, or are they still showing some reluctance to do the necessary planning, the necessary identification? SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Again, I'm going to go back to my question. Is it that they don't see the need for it? Is it that they feel it's a waste of their time? Have the senior management in the six departments you've looked at bought into it? Do they accept that this is the way to move forward, that they'll have to give it their attention? Are they going to commit themselves to identifying the risks, what degree of risk they're going to be prepared to take, and how they're going to assess whether or not it's been successful?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]That's what concerned me. Two years have gone by, and yet they're at the early stages of implementing it. Two years have gone by, and they haven't identified risk. It's not as if this is a six-month program. This program has been in front of them for two years, and yet there doesn't seem to be a buy-in. You mentioned in one of the chapters that the Treasury Board has to have a more hands-on approach, to do more training, to be more proactive. So is it really the Treasury Board that has to go back to all government departments and insist on a buy-in and do something progressive to get the departments moving on this?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]I looked specifically at some of the chapters, and the one on Citizenship and Immigration raises an issue that has been a concern of Canadians for a very long time. You've got a system now the government is putting in place to help them deal with this concern of Canadians, and yet there still seems to be a reluctance in taking hold of the help that's being provided to them to deal with this risk management they have to contend with. Again, I'm concerned that the management level in all these departments, whether it's Indian Affairs or Citizenship and Immigration, don't accept the advantage to them in getting into some kind of organized program identifying the risk and making educated decisions as to how much of that risk they're going to assume and how they're going to monitor whether or not the programs they put in place actually work. I'm confounded that they don't see this as a positive thing they should be supporting 100% to make their job easier.One of the chapters talks in general terms about managing the quality of financial information. I agree with your premise that you can't make a good decision if you don't have good quality information coming in. It's a sharing of information from department to department, so that you've got a communication vehicle across various departments. Is this because we don't have integrated information systems, but each department has its own collection of information, its own system? I'm thinking of the RCMP, CCRA, Citizenship and Immigration. There isn't an integrated system for collecting and receiving information. Do you see that as a direction we should be going in? SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Ms. Fraser, with these 36,000 people, you've made it the gap between removal orders issued and confirmed removals. Is this the number of people who come as refugee claimants and are given an appointment down the road, without having gone through a process?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]So it doesn't properly reflect the number of people who have come to our border, claimed refugee status, and are somewhere out there we don't know of?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1730)[English]Maybe he needs to remind the minister of his commitment. JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthMarcelProulxHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1730)[English]I want to deal with a number of issues. I'm struck because I was part of the debate over the merger as to whether the Onex deal would be the better one or Air Canada would buy Canadian. I remember clearly at the time that there was very little sympathy from Air Canada employees for the government moving in and bailing out Canadian Airlines, so I'd like to know why employee representatives have changed their position when they're faced with the same thing Canadian Airlines was faced with three years ago.MarcelProulxHull—AylmerPamelaSachs//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1730)[English]Well, they weren't given an airline with all the assets of an airline either, as Air Canada was. Anyway, I'm wondering, why the change in attitude? PamelaSachsRichardBalnis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1730)[English]When we were dealing with the takeover between Onex and Air Canada, there was very little support from Air Canada employees for the government moving in and helping Canadian Airlines out with any kind of package deal, any kind of financial subsidy, or call it whatever you want. What I heard from your presentation was that's what you would like the Canadian government to do for Air Canada right now, to move in with some kind of subsidy package to prevent Air Canada from any further--RichardBalnisRichardBalnis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1730)[English] So you feel that there isn't a discrepancy there at all.Another issue I'd like to raise here is your assumption that the smaller communities will not be served with any kind of air service. And I refer to your comment on point-to-point, where Air Canada flies from Halifax to Vancouver or Halifax to Ottawa, but the smaller communities wouldn't have any air service. I want to bring up my own experience where a small carrier tried to provide scheduled air service from a community that was three hours away from the major air centre, and it didn't work because people didn't use it, and they had to cancel it.If it's required, if the demand is there, if the people are willing to pay for air service to get from Yarmouth to somewhere or Sydney to somewhere, somebody will fill that gap. I think you're wrong in assuming that only Air Canada can fill that gap.RichardBalnisRichardBalnis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1730)[English]Some witness this morning or one of my colleagues suggested that perhaps what has to happen is Air Canada needs to concentrate on their international carrier and leave the national, the domestic carrier, to somebody else. In other words, perhaps Air Canada should be concentrating on what nobody else has the capacity for, and that's international destinations.RichardBalnisRichardBalnis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1735)[English]So you're saying nobody else can feed the traffic to Toronto or to Vancouver?RichardBalnisRichardBalnis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1735)[English]I have a point of order. Is that a guarantee for pensions in the private sector, or for their own public service? It's their own public service pensions they guarantee. No?RichardBalnisRichardBalnis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1735)[English]Can you tell us what private sector company pensions are guaranteed by the provincial government in Ontario?RichardBalnisRichardBalnis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1800)[English]From your brief here, the one claim to fame you have for Air Canada is that it's Canada's only network carrier. You mentioned that over and over again in your presentation. I have two questions. If that's the case, why didn't they make money, why didn't it work? And if that's the case, why Zip?JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthKentHardisty//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1800)[English]Why Zip, if they--KentHardistyKentHardisty//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1800)[English] Zip is not part of the network.KentHardistyKentHardisty//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1800)[English]But the lower-cost environment is point to point, not part of a network, so it doesn't fit into the mould of a network carrier.KentHardistyKentHardisty//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1805)[English]That's right, not Zip.StevenLinthwaiteStevenLinthwaite//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (2000)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'll be very short.I look at your proposal and I don't see how it can possibly work. We're dealing with Air Canada, which is under bankruptcy protection, and yet your proposal is asking mainline carriers like Air Canada to put more money into a pot for regional carriers. How is that possible when they're in bankruptcy protection because they can't manage any more costs?JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthRobertBouvier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (2000)[English]But anybody can start a small air service in rural Canada, and have in the past, and make a living if they do it right.RobertBouvierRobertBouvier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (2000)[English]Yes, but if he doesn't have the volume, then how do you justify that a person can rent a private airplane and make the trip for less than they would if an air carrier had to charge them what it cost to maintain that service?RobertBouvierRobertBouvier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (2000)[English]That's called supply and demand. I lived in northern Canada for 15 years, and most of us drove. We didn't expect somebody to start up a loser airline so that once a year, if we wanted to fly, it would be there. Living in northern Canada, the reality is it's a long distance from the urban centres and you get used to driving.RobertBouvierRobertBouvier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (2005)[English]I lived in northern Canada. I know what it's like.JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthJoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (0955)[English]Acknowledging, Mr. Minister, that this is a private sector issue, the government can do several things: they can reduce the excise tax on fuel; they can reduce airport rent; and they can certainly get rid of the airport security fees. What I'd like to know is, do you have any support in cabinet for these cost reductions, and is the current finance minister prepared to allow you to go this route?JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthDavidCollenetteHon.Don Valley East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0955)[English] If I can interrupt you there, Mr. Minister, this is about being competitive so our airline industry can survive in an international community. Is the cabinet looking at the big picture? DavidCollenetteHon.Don Valley EastDavidCollenetteHon.Don Valley East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0955)[English]Airport rents.DavidCollenetteHon.Don Valley EastDavidCollenetteHon.Don Valley East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1030)[English] I've listened with interest. You're comparing rail with air and saying the main carrier has to be allowed to be fully competitive. We saw with Canadian Airlines and Air Canada that it was more than competitive; it was predatory, with one going after the other. Where do you draw the line between competitive and predatory when you're talking about a major carrier that has size and whatnot?JimGoukKootenay—Boundary—OkanaganBasilHargrove//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1035)[English]Thank you.BasilHargroveJoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1205)[English]I thought we were only supposed to go until 12. JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthJoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1210)[English]Okay.JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthJoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1210)[English]I thank you, Mr. Chair. Just continue.JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthJoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1210)[English]Yes, I'd love to.JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthJoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1210)[English]It's Larry's turn. JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.There was a suggestion here, and I'm not even sure who made it, that perhaps Air Canada should be looking at being the international carrier and getting out of the business of domestic routes. Is this being considered at all by the corporation when they're looking at restructuring?JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthStephenMarkey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]Certainty on timing of arrival would be really nice.With your answer, then, I have to assume that you are still planning on going head to head in competition with any other air carrier in the marketplace domestically.StephenMarkeyStephenMarkey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]Then I have to conclude that the model hasn't changed, other than you trying to get labour costs reduced. That is the only change Air Canada is really looking at. You're not changing the model of operation, but you're merely cutting back your labour costs.StephenMarkeyFredGaspar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]The model is staying the same then.FredGasparStephenMarkey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]The model is staying the same. The model you have put before the committee is exactly the same model.StephenMarkeyStephenMarkey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]So the only change is lowering the cost, which means labour cost. Does that mean the high-cost business service is no longer going to be offered? Those are the changes to the model you are telling us are being....StephenMarkeyStephenMarkey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1340)[English]I just wanted to thank you, WestJet, for coming to Saskatoon because we had no service until you came. They didn't realize there was a need from the City of Saskatoon to the capital city here. You put that flight on and I appreciate it.JoeComuzziHon.Thunder Bay—Superior NorthCliveBeddoe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apologize for my lateness, but I was required in the House for a speech on budget implementation. Because I'm late, I don't know whether this has been asked before, but during our hearings--I forget what the issue was, probably gun registration--somebody brought up lay individuals who sit to help you review your audit. How are these people chosen, and do you have one of these committees for all the audits you do?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]Do you pay their expenses or a per diem? Are they part of your estimates?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]Is it only in value-for-money audits that you use them, or do you use them in other types of audits as well, such as a program audit?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]So these are advisors who are on staff in your department you would bring in all the time, or are they also consultants?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]Thank you.SheilaFraserJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1555)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Madam Minister and Auditor General, for appearing. I would like to start by suggesting, Mr. Rigby, that you go back to the drawing board and start all over again, because what you're proposing is not, I would suggest, going to meet the concerns of parliamentarians or Canadians. It's quite clear in the information I have before me that losses include any public money, and when somebody collects GST, they are collecting it on behalf of the government and putting it in trust until they remit it to the government. It then becomes property of the government. Any time there's a lack of remittance of that money, it is a loss. For your clarification, it's section 3, “Supplementary Information Required by the Financial Administration Act”. I see Human Resources Development list all those things they consider to be fraud, and you can't tell me that all of these have gone through the court process and criminal charges have been laid before they itemize what they consider to be a loss. I would like to know why CCRA doesn't use the same premise. If you consider it to be wilful misrepresentation you are investigating, that should be reported as a loss. Why do you not use the same standard of reporting to parliamentarians as Human Resources Development does?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]I beg to differ. I'm not talking about fraud, and I'm not going to argue whether somebody should be charged criminally with fraud before you record it. What I'm talking about is reporting to Parliament, through the public accounts, that these moneys are not available to the government to use, because they have not been collected. I don't care whether the person's been convicted of fraud or not, that is a loss of tax dollars that are supposed to be in the system. Other departments report that loss of money, they don't wait until it goes before a court, and I think it's unreasonable for CCRA to wait until a court decision has been made as to whether or not a criminal act has been committed before it records it as a loss.The Speaker in his judgment indicated that he was “troubled that although Revenue Canada recognized that it had a reporting difficulty and rightly sought the advice and approval of Treasury Board as to how best to rectify the situation, no effort was made to consult Parliament.” That's what concerns me, that this loss of money is not being recorded appropriately enough in the public accounts that parliamentarians are aware of what's going on. This is our only ability to be a watchdog. We were accused the other day of not doing our job, of not picking up things in public accounts and in main estimates and in supplementary estimates. This is our only way of getting this information, and I think it's negligent on the department's part not to provide information as to the loss of revenue, not fraud, to the government through CCRA.StephenRigbyElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]With all due respect, I'm looking at Human Resources Development in this document, and it points out the year in which the loss is reported, the amount of the original loss, the amount recovered in previous years, the amount recovered in 2001-2002, the amount not expected to be recovered, and then the amount expected to be recovered in subsequent years. That's a full accounting of the processes. Why is it that CCRA cannot do it? If 56% of taxpayers are using electronic filing, obviously, we have systems in place that could be giving us this kind of information from CCRA.StephenRigbyStephenRigby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]But I am suggesting to you that reporting after court convictions is not good enough. We should be getting this information when the loss is on the record. When you've noticed, when you have reported to your minister that this has not come in, that's when you should be putting it in the public accounts. You can let us know by putting the amount expected to be recovered in subsequent years as an anticipation of being successful in court or not. To say you're going to wait until a court decision I feel is not adequate for us as parliamentarians.StephenRigbyElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]But at some point you make the decision.StephenRigbyJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1610)[English]The committee.SteveMahoneyHon.Mississauga WestSteveMahoneyHon.Mississauga West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]With all due respect, I'm going to complain, like Mr. Mahoney, because you asked my questions. I was going to ask if you didn't distinguish between a disagreement on numbers with clients and somebody who is deliberately misrepresenting or trying to defraud the government, and I think that's probably in line with what the chair asked. So I just want to confirm in my own mind that you will be giving that information to Parliament through your reporting mechanisms, so we don't read press releases and find out that information.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]I would like to see a commitment that it's in the reporting mechanisms of the main estimates, the supplementary estimates, and the public accounts. As I mentioned before, we were accused in committee, yesterday or the day before, of not doing our job. We can't do our job unless the information is available to us in the documents we use. So there is a commitment that the changes you're making in your reporting will come to us through public accounts, estimates, supplementary estimates, all of these sorts of things?ElinorCaplanHon.ThornhillElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]So for the reassessment amounts of money that are out there, where you're reassessing the accounts--ElinorCaplanHon.ThornhillElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]But where you're reassessing amounts, that report will be broken down, so that we know in this year this amount of money is being reassessed and you expect to receive that amount of money in these years or next year or whenever?ElinorCaplanHon.ThornhillElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]I appreciate that, Madam Minister, but in what Human Resources Development Canada provides to us they talk about the original loss, the amount recovered in previous years, the amount recovered this year, and when they expect to recover it. That's useful information for us to have. So I'm wondering if you are also going to go back into last year or the year before or previous years and bring it into line with this, so that an amount that was in the books three years and you haven't received yet, but you do expect to receive, would be somehow accounted for. ElinorCaplanHon.ThornhillElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]It might not necessarily be reassessment. I assume reassessment is when you're renegotiating the numbers that are subject to disagreement, as opposed to where you suspect something misrepresented or fraud.ElinorCaplanHon.ThornhillElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]Pretty much, yes.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertElinorCaplanHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you both, Ms. Fraser and Ms. Robillard, for appearing.I have listened with some interest, obviously, to what's been said this afternoon. I take offence to hearing terms like “normal process” and then finding out it's not normal for departments to be operating off cycle. It's not normal for some departments to be chairing interdepartmental meetings. So I take offence to the fact that when we have departments brought before us we're given the opinion that things like this are in the normal course of events--they're on supplementary estimates because of all these unforeseen circumstances.I sat on the justice committee when this firearms legislation went through, and let me tell you, it was quite obvious from the very get-go that there were going to be challenges in the courts and issues that would have to be addressed later on. Did the justice department do its due diligence before it approached the Treasury Board for funding on the firearms registration program? Were you, as the Treasury Board, confident the justice department had done its due diligence before it started the process of firearms registration?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJimJudd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]It was quite clear at the hearings when this first hit the floor that the provinces were not going to be onside. They made it quite clear in the initial hearings on the firearms registration that they had tremendous problems with it. It was quite clear they were not all onside and that there would be challenges. I want to ask the Auditor General a question. You have stated that you have only done a report to Parliament on the costing. Are you now going to do a report on the administration of the firearms program? It is quite apparent to me that a lot of the problems are with the administration of the program, and I would suggest a lack of due diligence when it first started, and of proper follow-up and controls since the implementation of the program. Are you going to do a report on the management of the firearms program?JimJuddSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]Then how is the government going to correct operational problems, if you're going to wait until after the fact, when these problems are only going to be larger than they should be?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]The fact that Treasury Board has allowed the justice department to be off cycle for how many years would indicate that Treasury Board is not prepared to look at a situation, see that there are problems, and do anything about it until you come out with a report.SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1630)[English]I'm going to follow up on a lot of the comments that not only the chair has made, but others. It's quite clear to me that a sweetheart deal was reached with Bombardier. I'd like to know whether or not it was an open competition that allowed other people to get involved?When the government fronted up financing for a private corporation, was there not any talk about getting interest on the money? In any corporate dealings banks usually don't give free money away. Why would the government give free taxpayers' money away to get a project up and going? If that was the understanding, as I gather from your comments it was, that because of the technology, because of digital training, it was a collaborative project with industry, why wasn't there protection of tax dollars, some return on that front-end money?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertAlanWilliams//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]A 20-year contract with money up-front is not a sweetheart deal?AlanWilliamsAlanWilliams//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]I would suggest to you that there was a risk to the taxpayers, and that risk is precisely what has happened. The government invested taxpayers' dollars in a program with the understanding that we would receive training for it, and we didn't. If this program didn't get off the ground and went belly-up, we wouldn't have got any training at all in the next 20 years. So to say there wasn't as much of a risk I think is underestimating the fact that with any business venture, there are no guarantees.AlanWilliamsAlanWilliams//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]The reality is that you have a private company that is just now breaking even. That's pretty good after two years of a brand new program developing equipment. There are a lot of companies, and I can name a few, who don't break even for five or ten years when they're developing something. So to have a 20-year contract with the government guaranteeing money, whether or not you get the training programs, is a sweetheart deal, no matter how you cut it.AlanWilliamsAlanWilliams//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]I want to go back and talk about something you said about there being flexibility and options for changing this. Did I not understand, Ms. Fraser, that you said there wasn't flexibility written into this contract?AlanWilliamsSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]I'm sure I'm not going to be the only one who leaves this room totally confused. I just found another thing where the payments are made in trust to a holding company. Is that holding company Milit-Air not-for-profit corporation? Is it Bombardier? What is the holding company the payments are made to?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertWendyLoschiuk//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]So to whom is this holding company held accountable?WendyLoschiukWendyLoschiuk//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Please do. Would you give us an idea of how they fit into the picture?WendyLoschiukJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Maybe while they're explaining that, they can explain to us, when the foreign countries buy slots--that's why I was confused about the “we”--to whom they pay the money. Does that money go into the holding company, which appropriates it wherever it goes? Does it go to National Defence, and if so, how come National Defence is getting paid for slots Bombardier is providing training for?SheilaFraserAlanWilliams//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]So Bombardier, basically, doesn't get any money for this service other than from the DND.AlanWilliamsAlanWilliams//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]Well, the question is why Bombardier is even in the picture then. Why don't DND run this for themselves?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1630)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I have one question that I would like answered with a yes or a no. Was a due diligence study done on the potential cost of the gun registry program before the program was implemented? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMorrisRosenberg//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]So the government went ahead with a major crown program without doing due diligence as to what the costs were going to be, and they changed the computer system 12,000 times. Did I hear that right--12,000 times you changed the information or the programming in the computer registration program?MorrisRosenbergMorrisRosenberg//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English] I don't want anything long; I just want to know whether that is in fact what I just heard.MorrisRosenbergMorrisRosenberg//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Yes, I'd like a copy of that report to go the committee, please.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMorrisRosenberg//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Okay, so we have a growing complexity in this system, and year after year you go to supplementary estimates to ask for more money, because you can't figure out from one year to the other that it's going to cost more money than you originally asked for. I find this really hard to believe. I can see your asking for supplementary estimates on one occasion, because something unusual happened. But I'm afraid I feel the same way my colleagues from the NDP, the Tories, and the Bloc Québécois do, that the use of supplementary estimates year after year seems to be a deliberate attempt to use an underhanded, backdoor method of funding this program. My next question is, how is it possible when you have something run 500 times over budget— MorrisRosenbergJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]That's right.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Following up on my concern about your using the supplementary estimates to get funding for a program that you should know you're running into shortfalls with if you're using it year after year, I'd like to know why 94% of senior executives received performances bonuses when it's well documented that they were not doing their jobs sufficiently? There was a 500% overrun or a 500 times overrun on a major crown corporation's program.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMorrisRosenberg//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Mr. Chair, the Speaker of the House of Commons ruled that $72 million for the gun registry was pulled from the supplementary estimates on December 5. Yet the minister's officials told the media, and his own website claimed, that the $72 million is part of this year's publicly announced $113.5 million of planned spending. Who has it wrong? Is it part of the planned spending, or is it part of the supplementary estimates? If it was pulled, where does the money come from? MorrisRosenbergMorrisRosenberg//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English] How did you fund it?MorrisRosenbergMorrisRosenberg//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English] But you knew you needed $113 million.MorrisRosenbergJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Do we get to do the same thing to them?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1555)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Madam Fraser and Mr. Bouchard and your support people, for appearing before us.I listened with interest, because I represent a riding that is on the west coast, and I hear indirectly concerns about the lack, basically, of facility and of ability of the coast guard to respond. In several cases in my particular area we've relied on the U.S. Coast Guard to help boaters in distress. So I really want to reach into your comments, Mr. Bouchard, where you talked about having the stakeholders involved in the decisions you've made or in the planning process. The ones that come to my mind are de-manning the lighthouses and foghorn issues. Have you held any public meetings to explain to people why you're even approaching these issues?PhilipMayfieldCariboo—ChilcotinJean-ClaudeBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English] I'm going to jump in because my eight minutes include your answers as well.I want to reach into the Auditor General's concern about there being five regional districts, each one doing it's own thing, with no national program. When you look at these issues, like de-staffing lighthouses, foghorns, providing services, the number of boats--I was interested in the number of vessels that are around--and the aircraft, is there a national program, or do you just allocate certain vessels to the west coast, certain vessels to the east coast, and they do their own thing, without there being a national program and a national overseeing body to make sure there's some consistency from one coast to the other?UrsulaMenkeJean-ClaudeBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]Following up on that with the regional distribution, if you will, of the decision-making process, I forget the name of the boat--somebody may be able to help me--that overturned, and there was some concern over the clarity of the regulations for responding to marine incidents. Has that been addressed?Jean-ClaudeBouchardJean-ClaudeBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]Yes.Jean-ClaudeBouchardJean-ClaudeBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]That was a regional incident. Has it only been clarified for that region, or is there a national regulation that if the same thing were to happen in Newfoundland or on the Great Lakes, there is some coordination from one region to the other to make sure there's a uniformity in response?Jean-ClaudeBouchardJean-ClaudeBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]My understanding is that you don't have it yet, but you will have it in a year, because they're not trained to actually perform the function at this point.Jean-ClaudeBouchardJean-ClaudeBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]Then the question has to be raised, why is it only on the west coast if it's a national concern? Why would it only be available to people on the west coast and not off the coast of Nova Scotia?Jean-ClaudeBouchardJean-ClaudeBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]With the concern, Madam Fraser, that was raised about the fees being too high, is it the commercial marine industry that has indicated that the fees they pay for the services are too high, or is it the recreational boating community?Jean-ClaudeBouchardSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]Are they concerned because they're paying for a service they're not receiving? JohnO'BrienJohnO'Brien//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to go back to something you said, Mr. Bouchard, that you have partners in and around the coastal areas that assist you. Who are they, and do you have a formal arrangement with the United States to provide coast guard services on the west coast?PhilipMayfieldCariboo—ChilcotinJean-ClaudeBouchard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]With the new security parameters being put in place after September 11, has the relationship with the U.S. Coast Guard in providing marine security changed, or has it been addressed at all?UrsulaMenkeUrsulaMenke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]How many active vessels do you have on the west coast that would be providing support service, and how many vessels does the navy have on the west coast for providing marine security?UrsulaMenkeUrsulaMenke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Could you please provide the committee with not only the number of vessels that are active on the west coast, but perhaps on all the coasts, and the percentage of them on the waters at any given time?UrsulaMenkeUrsulaMenke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Thank you.UrsulaMenkePhilipMayfieldCariboo—Chilcotin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1535)[English] Mr. Chair, it's self-explanatory. I am placing this on the table because I think it's important that the minister appear before this committee to answer questions as to the accusations of the level of GST fraud that are out there.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]That's interesting. My question is probably a bit of a follow-up to Gerald's. I think he's right that access to information does not apply to these foundations. But are the funding agreements available to parliamentarians? If we want to see the funding agreements the government has struck with these various foundations, are we able to get copies of them?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]What interests would a foundation have that could not be made public? If the taxpayers' dollars have been given to a foundation for a valid reason--to give it some independence from government.... This comes down to the whole basis of the problem. In essence, we're giving a bunch of people billions of dollars and then washing our hands of it. We don't have any control over what the agreement says, what they do with the money, or whether they're spending it in the way it is supposed to be spent. There is no ability for Parliament--and I'm not even talking about the Auditor General at this point, I'm talking about Parliament, which is responsible for spending taxpayers' dollars--and members of Parliament to be included in the process.RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]But it's only there in that the information is delivered, and it's the information that is given by the foundation. There's no sanction if the information they deliver isn't accurate, if it's giving a picture that isn't accurate, or if they're putting it in nice fuzzy words. Quite frankly, a lot of the government documentation comes in nice fuzzy words that don't adequately reflect what's actually happening. So there's no real ability of parliamentarians, of Parliament, to go after them to clean up their act.Ms. Fraser has already said there's no meat on the bones. There are no sanctions we can impose upon them because they're independent third parties out there with the money. Even the ministers probably have a hard time getting involved because they're third parties removed, so there isn't the government influence and interference.RichardNevilleJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Just to repeat, maybe the problem is that Canadians aren't prepared to just give up $7.4 billion to third parties without their tax dollars being watch-dogged by the Auditor General or by Parliament. RichardNevilleJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Well, my question is going to be very specific, because I think we're getting confused with these major government programs that are functioning under a foundation as opposed to an agency.With agencies, we can have them appear before an audit, but the intent of the structure is basically the same as under an agency, is it not?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]So basically it's the same concept as an agency, and the agency can report to Parliament and have the function of the Auditor General.But my specific question is, not to confuse these foundations with other foundations, do they get any public funding, or do they simply get a massive amount of money from the federal government that then is invested and creates an income that they use for the project? Does the innovation fund really get private sector money?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]When you say leverage, what you're talking about is this foundation is going to give somebody $2 million and some third party private sector is going to put in $1 million. That's not giving the money to the foundation, it's giving the money to another project that the foundation is supporting. That's quite different from the foundation receiving $1 million from corporate Canada for the general good of the foundation. I'm not talking about project spending from the third party. I'm talking about whether General Motors of Canada throws $2 billion into the innovation fund to be used for whatever.PeterDeVriesJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]I want to ask, because you brought up the Trudeau Foundation, is this going to be a new pattern of how the government hands out money--to create foundations to remove any reporting aspect? Why was that set up as a foundation?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]Okay, but then that is different from a government setting up a foundation. That is a private foundation that the government is putting money into, as they would with the Cancer Foundation or some other. That's quite different from one the government establishes by legislation, with a humungous amount of money for distribution. RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English] So are the Cancer Foundation and the Heart Foundation. RichardNevilleJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1725)[English]I have a point of order. Why don't you have the Treasury Board get an answer to that question from the lawyer who works for the Treasury Board through the justice department? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1630)[English]I am new and I missed the initial hearings, the reviews, and all the rest of it, but having lived in an area that was 50% aboriginal, with on-reserve and off-reserve native people, I'm curious as to how you determine what your program is going to cover. In British Columbia and Alberta there are health care insurance premiums. Does this program pay for the individual's premium, so that they're covered under the provincial health care?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainIanPotter//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]So this is an insurance program above and beyond that to deal with those areas that are not insured. Through this computerized program on prescription drugs and what not, you identify where there's abuse, whether it's the doctors giving out more than one prescription, whether it's the pharmacist giving out more prescriptions. Who does the follow-up? When you identify that there is an abuse or that there is a duplication of services, who actually does what? Does somebody in your department contact the pharmacist? Does somebody in your department contact the doctor? What is the follow-up once it's been identified that there is a duplication of prescriptions?IanPotterIanPotter//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Would you do it by a letter, would you do it by a personal visit? How would you inform the medical practitioners of what's going on?IanPotterIanPotter//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]So you would give out the names of the other doctors they're seeing, so they would know the medical practitioners who need to be talking to each other?IanPotterIanPotter//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]My understanding is that in the province of British Columbia--and I could be way off the wall on this--they do have a program where pharmacies are aware of what prescriptions have been given out to individuals, where one prescription may have a very dangerous effect taken with a different prescription. So if you're getting this information from the pharmacies, if they understand that someone gets a prescription from one doctor and another from another doctor and there's a dangerous situation, and you've sent them a letter, what's the follow-up to make sure they've actually done something about it?IanPotterIanPotter//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Is it a consent form that will last for a long period of time, not a renewal every year?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainIanPotter//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]I just wanted to clarify what I heard. What I heard is that if somebody doesn't sign the consent form, for the first time they will get their prescription, and after that, if they get their prescription paid for, but then send in a reimbursement form to Indian Affairs, to your insurance program, the information they have not given consent for will still go into the system. BethPhinneyHamilton MountainIanPotter//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]So the only difference is that the consent form allows the pharmacist to get the information from them and to give it to you. Without that, you still require the information, but you'll get it directly from them and not through a third party. But what if they don't want to give you the information?IanPotterIanPotter//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]Okay. Thank you.IanPotterBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1640)[English]Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to also add my condolences to the agency for the loss of friends and associates.I'm going to ask you more on the management end, because I think you've been asked many questions on the funding and the difficulties in balancing the priorities with how much money you have. But the the space management program framework of 1999 also formalized the structure of the management group, and it recommended that there be a Canadian Space Agency advisory council with service line advisory groups for each of the agency's five service lines. In the audit report, there seemed to be a concern that either the advisory groups weren't formed or they certainly weren't part of the process, and that when the budget priorities were set and the strategy was set, they weren't even included in it. So could you maybe respond to this concern that was expressed by the auditor's report?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainMarcGarneauHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]So you would feel this is a valuable contribution to your prioritization and strategy development, and you will continue to support it?MarcGarneauHon.MarcGarneauHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Thank you for that.Is part of your strategy and prioritization an educational component? By educational, I mean making the public, Canadians, aware of what it is that you do--that is, the innovative technologies that you have supplied over the years, the length. I think all of us were a little bit taken aback that we're talking forty years. Is part of what you do making sure Canadian young people and all Canadians are aware of the agency?MarcGarneauHon.MarcGarneauHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]I would like to finish by saying it's tragic--MarcGarneauHon.BethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]I think it's tragic that the only news you get is when tragic events occur, and that there's not more promotion in our media for the good news.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainMarcGarneauHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]I want to follow up on my colleague's conversation with you on the mission to Mars. You've gone for funding because it's a go/no-go situation. Is that request for funding above your normal yearly budget, so this would be an additional amount of money specifically for this project that you have requested?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainMarcGarneauHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]I guess that goes into what I understood from the Auditor General's report--this balance of all the projects and priorities with the amount of money that's there when you're planning and strategizing. Obviously, here you have 2009, where you're going to need, at either the lead-up to it or at that point, an influx of money that you can't accommodate in your budget. Is that included in your planning and priority budgeting? Or is what you're offering the government and the audits, when they're done, a statement like “This is our plan; we will require more money than our regular budget at this point, this point, and this point“? Is that how you.... Or do you just go in and knock on the door and say we have this offer and we need an extra $800 million--can you accommodate?MarcGarneauHon.MarcGarneauHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]Yes, it does actually.My constituency is right on the border. Amtrak came through--I guess it was probably late summer--with an art train. It was called the space train. Amtrak had provided two or three cars full of space photography, art work, and what not. That's how they were promoting it. Maybe a corporate entity could take it on as an educational or advertising promotional thing on your behalf. Rather than you spending your own money, get some other corporate entity to spend its money to help you out on that. MarcGarneauHon.MarcGarneauHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]It never hurts to ask. It was very well received in the communities. It goes from community to community and stops. I think it was there for a couple of days so the school kids could go through it.MarcGarneauHon.MarcGarneauHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]Thank you, and thank you for coming.MarcGarneauHon.BethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1540)[English]I'll move it. John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]I'd like to add to it that in the event you do not get the answer within a short period of time, this committee will reconsider the issue.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]He's merely asking a question of government for a response.JohnBrydenAncaster—Dundas—Flamborough—AldershotJohnBrydenAncaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]You didn't know this existed?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]Yes, it is.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1550)[English]Do we know for a fact that it's addressing the issues the Auditor General raised?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohnBrydenAncaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]Do you know that? Have you seen it?JohnBrydenAncaster—Dundas—Flamborough—AldershotJohnBrydenAncaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]No, but the Auditor General pointed out the number of reporting times that the aboriginal community had to do. They were reporting to umpteen dozen different departments about umpteen dozen programs. She felt there had to be a better way of getting the reporting mechanisms down to a smaller number. I don't know whether you feel that the legislation that has been introduced is going to address it.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]Mr. Chair, I am quite frankly concerned about the obstructionist attitude of one of the government members. If he doesn't want to work with this committee and let the committee do its job, I would suggest that Mr. Harb find another committee he's willing to work with. I am here to do my work in this committee on behalf of Canadians. I find it appalling that every time we try to do something, we have a member from the government side trying to slam the door and prevent us from doing what this committee has been set up to do. So I would like it to go on the public record that if he doesn't like working with this committee, maybe he should find a committee he'd like to work with.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]You know, the Auditor General had a concern about two things. One was the amount of expenditure on the firearms program, and the second was keeping that information from Parliament. I would suggest that it's not the present justice minister who holds the responsibility for that. It's the former two justice ministers, who not only were part of the spending program but were the ones who did not report to Parliament on the increased spending of an important government program. So I'm saying ultimately the Honourable Allan Rock and the Honourable Anne McLellan are both largely responsible for the report the Auditor General has tabled.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1600)[English]Is it the responsibility of the bureaucrats to report to Parliament, or is it the responsibility of the minister? That was part of the Auditor General's report, that they hid the facts from Parliament. I would argue that it's the minister's responsibility to report to Parliament--not the deputy minister, not the director, but the minister.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1610)[English]Mr. Chairman, I don't buy that we can't call back ministers, because I know in another committee I sat on we did call back a former minister who was no longer part of the government, and if he wasn't prepared to come on his own, we were prepared to subpoena him to appear. So I don't think there's anything stopping us from calling previous ministers to this committee to answer some questions.I think it's extremely important, because this program was flawed from the beginning. The lack of reporting to Parliament happened right from the beginning, and I don't see how we can do our job properly unless we track it from the beginning to the date the Auditor General tabled her report.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1615)[English]Would you read the motion again, please?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1615)[English]With the understanding that we can call future witnesses if necessary.An hon. member: [Inaudible—Editor]John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertValMeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—Langley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1615)[English]No, not necessarily. I want to be very clear on that.ValMeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1615)[English]You're going to be dealing with my motion that's on the floor?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]I did.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]If this committee is willing to allow the department people, the Treasury Board, and the Auditor General--and the minister, if possible--to appear before this committee, then I would withdraw my second motion to have the Auditor General investigate it.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1635)[English]There's also an amendment on chapter 11 that deals with the information databases of the police department--gather audit observations.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Right. They should both be brought into the....John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertPhilipMayfieldCariboo—Chilcotin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Aboriginal, chapter 1, I believe.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English] Are we done with this?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]Let's make a decision on it.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]Mr. Chair, I know I'm kind of off topic here. I haven't been part of this committee in the past, but the issue of the GST fraud and the breaking of the guidelines set up has been raised in the House of Commons. Can I get copies from the clerk of any meetings this committee has held on that issue of GST fraud?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]I think we would be remiss if we didn't either instruct the AG or see if she has run across it in the past. It was a little embarrassing to sit on the public accounts committee and have this exposed through the media without our having any knowledge of it. So I would suggest, if she hasn't already done something on it, she should be instructed by this committee to please look into it—assuming that she hasn't.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]I will make this a notice of motion. I will have the motion for the next meeting.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]Did you get chapter 1?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]This chapter on aboriginal reporting from the Auditor General's December report.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1540)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'd also like to thank the Auditor General and her staff for coming up with some issues for us to deal with that bring to light for Canadians just some of the issues the government has yet to address.I got the impression from your presentation that there are areas the government has been working on, particularly the 40-year project for good management, where it indicates it has every intention, reads your reports, understands what you are saying, doesn't disagree that it is going to act on it, but it doesn't. Your report this time indicates a number of areas where that is the case, where the good intentions don't lead into any kind of real action. How does one get the government to react? I guess the accrual accounting process is certainly one way, responsible management, accountability. How does one get the government to actually respond in kind?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]One thing you've consistently brought up is the lack of managers following the rules and the regulations that are put in place by the Treasury Board. At chapter 2.107, on Fisheries and Oceans, you make the comment:The Department has not cost-effectively managed the functions we examined and changes have to be made to ensure the system meets the user needs in the future.I want to bring to your attention something that was brought to my attention on Friday, that the coast guard is planning on buying a British-made hovercraft through a sole-source procurement. A Canadian company has tried to get the information about it. They were told to check the e-mail or the bidding things to find out when this project would be available, but they never were able to get hold of anything. The last bulletin they were able to get was that details were issued earlier this month and advance notice of a contract award to the British firm. So this Canadian company had no opportunity to bid on the project, even though they went through a recent full evaluation of their product by the United States Coast Guard and passed with flying colours. Their procedures are more stringent than the Canadian procedures. So they're asking why they missed out on the opportunity to bid in an open bidding process with the coast guard on this. You mentioned that the coast guard has four management units, not one management unit. Who is responsible for making these kinds of decisions on behalf of the government?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]But is it because there are four management units with the coast guard? Is it because there isn't one central body that's responsible for making these kinds of decisions? How does this sort of thing happen?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]In your chapter 1 on the first nations you brought to our attention that the first nations had--I understand it was only Saskatchewan you were looking at--an estimated 168 reports that they were to provide to various government agencies. You seemed to feel that there should be a better way of monitoring that. Not only was it a job creation project on the reserve, but they spent more time and resources on filling out those reports, and there was a better utilization of the money, it could have gone into delivery of services.SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]We dealt with chapter 10 on the firearms legislation, but chapter 11 points out that in doing an audit, you found that the firearms interest police database is inaccurate or has information in it that isn't pertinent. Can you comment on that briefly?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]Did they have any framework for the names being put into this database, or were they just arbitrarily picking and choosing names they felt they wanted in there?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]Thank you.SheilaFraserJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1545)[English]I'll move that this motion be deferred until legal counsel has a chance to look at the necessary documentation and can bring it forward before the committee.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMacHarbHon.Ottawa Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1545)[English]Actually, I moved that amendment.MacHarbHon.Ottawa CentreMacHarbHon.Ottawa Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English] It wasn't. It was just to have him review all the necessary documents and then report back to us.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]If he's able.What we have to lose is time. If it takes him a lot of time to come up with a written report, then maybe he could do a verbal report and follow it up with a written report.MacHarbHon.Ottawa CentreJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apologize for having missed a bit of the meeting. I hope my questions weren't answered then, but I want to raise a couple of points.First , I sat on the human resources development committee almost two years ago, and we heard at that time that the EI account was being put under this review and that the report would come back. Are we talking about the same process? Are we at the same stage now that we were at two years ago on that account?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertPeterDeVries//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]Well that's comforting. Secondly, I want to follow up on what Mr. Murphy was raising. Once the accrual process comes into play, you then look at all the assets and all the liabilities that the government has, right? How far in advance do you take in the liabilities with commitments like land claims issues and settlement issues with the schools? It goes on and on. These are legal commitments that the government has made. How far in advance do you bring them into the accounting process?PeterDeVriesRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]But do you book it in the year it's paid out? In other words, do you book it in ten-year increments or twenty-year increments?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1725)[English]You can't book the full amount in that year, though. That's what I'm getting at.RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1725)[English]So if you have a land settlement agreement that's going to be put into place over, say, 25 years, you're going to book the whole liability in the one year?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1725)[English]As the payments are made, then, the contingent liability is lessened and it would be taken off.RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1725)[English]Yes, it does.Do I have any more time?RichardNevilleJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1705)[English]Just for my clarification, as I wasn't here this morning, what letter are we talking about? Are we talking about the letter we knew about before Parliament was prorogued last spring?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]With all due respect, Mr. Chair, I think it is redundant to even react or respond to a letter that old, which hasn't been responded to already. It was a letter of July 12. It is now November 21. I would suggest if we haven't heard anything more from these individuals, the matter has probably been placed aside.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1530)[English]May I make a suggestion? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1530)[English]Can I make an amendment?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1530)[English]I would like to amend it, Mr. Chair, to read that there be a representative of the Canadian Alliance, seeing as how the two vice-chairs are already Liberal. The Chair: I'm there.Ms. Val Meredith: Yes, I know, but I'm saying the Liberals have three people, the official opposition has one, the Bloc has one, the Conservatives have one, and the New Democrats have one. That doesn't acknowledge that the official opposition is considerably larger, and I think there should be two. We're still outnumbered.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1535)[English]Speaking to the amendment, the worst that can happen is that you have a draw.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1535)[English]And there's nobody to put the deciding vote in. If it can't carry the weight of the steering committee.... I mean, a steering committee doesn't make decisions. It merely advances an agenda to the main committee.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1535)[English]How can you have a motion that says you can't hear witnesses unless you have five members, three government members and two opposition members, and now you are saying you can have any three members present?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]Can I then make an amendment that at least one member of the opposition must be present to even hear witnesses in a reduced quorum? Because the whole point is that the government cannot, to the exclusion of opposition, proceed with the meeting. I think that thought should be carried over into this other motion.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]Provided that of the three members present one of them is an opposition member.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]Do you become the third member then?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]But you're basically saying that with two people you can hear witnesses?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]That's what I'm saying.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1540)[English]I think it is a sad day when a parliamentary committee cannot get enough people to listen to a witness. If somebody comes from a long way away, and there are three people sitting here out of a committee of...how many? Does this ever happen? I would hope not.An hon. member: Oh yes, it does.Ms. Val Meredith: Then I think there's an onus on all of us to make a commitment to be here when we call in witnesses. I can't believe you'd have three people listening to somebody who comes from wherever they come from, or that it's meaningful for them to have taken time out of their work and have gone to the expense of coming to the committee to have three people listen to them. That's a shame.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (0905)[English]I'd like to nominate Shawn Murphy, please. RichardRumasRichardRumas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0920)[English]I nominate Mr. Bertrand.RichardRumasRichardRumas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (0930)[English]Mr. Chair, I've sat on quite a number of different committees in the House, and I'd like to know what specifically the issues are. Perhaps numbers could be changed or minor amendments made to some of these motions, in line with other committees, but I don't see that many things in here that would be out of the norm for every committee in the House of Commons.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1050)[English]I'm finding this very interesting. I am new to the public accounts committee, and I look at our job as making sure that the management of the taxpayers' dollars is done in a transparent manner and in a non-fraudulent and honest manner. I don't think this committee is asking too much to be allowed to continue looking at the process of the sponsorship program and how the government officials manage these programs. It's their job to make sure the rules are adhered to and that the spending of public funds is done in a proper manner.I see nothing wrong with continuing that process. It's not up to us to question whether or not somebody is breaking the law; it's whether they're managing the money properly. Quite frankly, I don't think Mr. Guité is an issue with this particular study. I don't see why he would be called back, quite frankly.John G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1120)[English]I have a point of order. Mr. Chair, with all due respect, you disallowed some of the opposition members making comments about other individuals. You seem to be giving a lot of flexibility--MacHarbHon.Ottawa CentreMacHarbHon.Ottawa Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1120)[English]I have the floor under a point of order. MacHarbHon.Ottawa CentreJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1120)[English]I think you're giving Mr. Harb a lot more leeway than you have given some of my colleagues on this side.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1220)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to clarify something that came up a bit earlier. You were asked if there was any political interference with the Groupaction file, and your response was, no. I would like to ask you if there was any interference or influence in the selection of the short list, if you will, of companies that qualified. The Auditor General pointed out that government files on the three contracts are so poorly documented that many key questions remain unanswered on the selection of the contractor and the basis for establishing the price and scope of the work in the contracts. Was there any influence from the minister's office or other ministers' offices on what companies would be used for the sponsorship file?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertRanaldQuail//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]How does the department normally select the companies for a short list? I understand there are 10 or 12 on the preferred contract list. How are they picked?RanaldQuailRanaldQuail//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]There is a process in place that is very detailed. The fact that the process was not followed, or there was no indication that it was followed, didn't cause the internal auditors a concern?RanaldQuailRanaldQuail//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]That's fine, thank you.RanaldQuailRanaldQuail//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]I want to go back to this whole issue of review of your employees. I would assume that even at management level, there would be performance appraisals, performance reviews done. Were they done on a yearly basis for the managers in your department?RanaldQuailRanaldQuail//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]Who would do the performance review? Who would do it and who would review it?RanaldQuailRanaldQuail//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]So how would you deal with an employee who was not meeting the grade at a management level, where they were either not following the regulations, the parameters under which they had been hired, or they failed to meet their goals and objectives? How would you have handled that?RanaldQuailRanaldQuail//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1625)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to clarify the action plan Mr. Murphy asked for. Is it for phase one and phase two--the pilot project and the second project as well? Is that what you are going to be providing us with?MacHarbHon.Ottawa CentreRobertaSanti//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]So are you including it in his request for those documents to be tabled with the committee? Are you going to include the summary of the pilot project, as well as the action plan for the second project? RobertaSantiRobertaSanti//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]Thank you. Mr. Neville, you made a statement earlier when we were talking about FIS that you hadn't made a decision as to whether you were going to use the accrual principle in your budgeting and appropriation. I'd like to ask you what, specifically, would be a reason why you would not use it?RobertaSantiRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]You said a decision had not yet been made as to whether or not you would be using the accrual system in budgeting or appropriation.RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]What specifically would cause you not to agree to use the accrual method in budgeting and appropriations? RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]Isn't that why people are suggesting you should be using it?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English] I'm asking you specifically what would cause you to decide not to use it? What are you afraid of? RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]Why would it not be applicable?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]You also mentioned you got the initial 40 financial systems down to seven financial clusters. Why would the government not be operating with one financial management plan? Why are you allowing seven different systems to be used in one organization?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]Have you any working documents, any progress reports, on the development of those seven clusters? Is there any rationale as to what institutes the seven clusters, how they vary from each other, and how they're similar?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Could you maybe table that information here, so members can look at it?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English] Thank you.RichardNevilleMacHarbHon.Ottawa Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Through the committee.MacHarbHon.Ottawa CentreMacHarbHon.Ottawa Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm also going to go back to where I left off, and I'm going to refer to a question, or a response to one Mr. Murphy posed, about who makes the decision, who is responsible.Mr. Neville, you acknowledged that you were one of a team or one of a group of people who would have to ultimately be responsible for the issues. When you said it's a policy decision as to whether or not you use accrual budgeting in appropriations, I would have to assume you're one of the individuals who would be making that policy or involved in the discussions to make it policy. Am I right?MacHarbHon.Ottawa CentreRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]Then would you be able to provide this committee--and do it in writing, because I have another question and I don't want to take up the time--what the concerns are that you have, as one of the group making that decision, in not bringing consistency into the whole budgeting appropriation system?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]Just because it hasn't been done for a hundred and some years is no excuse not to consider doing it, though. I understand that your predecessor, Mr. Colin Potts, told this committee the Treasury Board Secretariat was working on four models of accrual appropriation. What happened to those four models that you guys, the Treasury Board Secretariat, had been working on? RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]Is there any chance of our getting a copy of that framework?RichardNevilleRichardNeville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The unfortunate thing about being further down the line is that the questions have been asked, but the good thing is I can ask for clarification. And I'm going to start with your comment, Ms. Cochrane, that the procurement function of the programs remains with your department. So I assume that the procurement function is yours. What's the other function? Is it the administrative function of the program that is with Communication Canada? How do you work the two together to make sure something doesn't fall through the cracks between the two organizations? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]Following that, I understand that there is a preselection process of companies that fall under a certain category to be used. How often is that changed, and how do people become part of that process? I represent a constituency in western Canada, and I often feel that western Canadian companies are not part of the procurement process of government. How do they become part of that if there's a preselection of ten companies or whatever? JaniceCochraneJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]Every so many years you put it out for tender.JaniceCochraneJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]Then you assume that there are so many that are qualified.JaniceCochraneJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]I don't want to go into any more detail than that. I just want to know the regularity of it. You mentioned in your statements a couple of times a period of time, referring to, I assume, this period of time when Groupaction contracts were let. In your administrative review are you going beyond that time, or are you just going to be dealing with that period of time? And what are you going to do if you find documentation is missing from the files? The Auditor General, for the second contract, stated that the documentation had been provided by Groupaction at the request of Public Works. Are you going to go out and solicit from the companies that were hired the documentation to put in the file, so that when the Auditor General reviews the files, the stuff will be there?JaniceCochraneJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]Documentation in your administrative review indicates that this information was not in the file at the time of the review and had to be solicited by whoever and added to the file, along with the time and date at which it was added to the file.JaniceCochraneJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]It is supposed to happen annually, then.The question was asked whether the minister has suspended Groupaction, and the response to that was “under the sponsorship program”. Does that mean it's only under the sponsorship program that they're being denied access to government contracts? Are they being considered and gaining contracts in other programs?SheilaFraserJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]That was clarification for others than myself.I want to go back to this period on which the review was done. You acknowledged that there were problems and you kept referring to two executive directors. Are you telling the committee that only those two individuals were responsible for what happened, that there wasn't any delegation of responsibility, that other people weren't sloppy in the performance of their duties? I know they were ultimately responsible, perhaps, for signing the cheques and signing off on the contracts, but were they the only ones who were involved in bad management practice and not following the rules?JaniceCochraneJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]That flat organization, where one person is making all the decisions, has shown, by the results, that it is not a very efficient way and that there are no checks and balances in it. Have you made efforts to change that kind of structure so that no one person has that kind of ability to manipulate the processes?JaniceCochraneJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]Thank you.As a result of what happened, is there a commitment from both Communication Canada and Public Works that there be an ongoing review of contracts? I'm not just talking about sponsorship contracts, I'm talking about contracts for renting buildings or whatever it might be, where there will be a greater degree of review of the contracts on an ongoing basis, rather than letting something slide for three or four years before somebody wakes up and says, we have a problem.GuyMc KenzieJaniceCochrane//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1610)[English]Ran Quail was the Deputy Minister of PWGSC, and I think he falls into the same category as Pierre Tremblay and Charles Guité. He was in a responsible position for the department. He was deputy minister at the time this happened, and I think he should be brought into that list. The others I'm not concerned about at this point, but I think this Ran Quail should be brought in.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Because I only have four minutes, I'm going to take my six questions and cut them down to three. The Auditor General was concerned that Parliament did not formally approve the transfer of this military base to Parc Downsview Park. What I'd like to know is whether or not Canada Lands Corporation still believes Canada should not have anything to say about where the government lands are transferred. The question is directed at whoever makes the decisions as to where these government lands are given away.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]So you believe this is still the process? Second, the Government of Canada owns considerable land across the country that used to be military bases. How is Canada Lands Corporation dealing with the fact that there are aboriginal land claims outstanding? Does this come into play, and if so, why was the land that was given to Parc Downsview Park not part of this land claims inventory? RichardFaddenKathyMilsom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]So you're telling me this Downsview Park will not be available for any future aboriginal first nations land claims?KathyMilsomKathyMilsom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Would that also apply to the Chilliwack military base, so it is now not available for aboriginal land claims because it has gone through the Canada Lands Corporation? KathyMilsomKathyMilsom//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]How much money has the defence department put into this urban park, and why did it put any into it?KathyMilsomTonyGenco//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]How much?TonyGencoTonyGenco//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]Yes, millions of dollars, thousands of dollars?TonyGencoTonyGenco//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1645)[English]Would you provide that for the committee, please? Thank you. TonyGencoJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1615)[English] In reading this, I see it has three parts to it. The first part is, “take all measures necessary to encourage, facilitate and actively support the right to communications of the deaf and hearing impaired”. I notice there's no mention of movie theatre productions. Is that because this falls outside of the CRTC and you're trying to bring it within federal jurisdiction?MarcelProulxHull—AylmerMadeleineDalphond-GuiralLaval Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1615)[English] If the hearing impaired go to a movie theatre, unless there is closed-captioning they can't follow the movie. Is there nothing under the CRTC that restricts the showing of films by movie theatres? Does the CRTC not regulate whether it's family rated, restricted, or that kids under 18 can't see, that sort of thing?MadeleineDalphond-GuiralLaval CentreMadeleineDalphond-GuiralLaval Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English] The Treasury Board is doing a restructuring and a review of the federal civil service. Do you know whether it as well is looking at this change in its review?LorneNystromHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleLorneNystromHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]I took exception to the fact that you pointed your finger at the Canadian Alliance. Not having sat here before, I don't know whether or not your assumptions are correct. We believe that all private members' bills should be votable. I wonder why you're going under the Canada Health Act instead of the Official Languages Act. If it's under the Canada Health Act and you're concerned about people who don't speak the language getting adequate health care services and being able to understand the procedures and processes they have to deal with, I'm a little concerned that you didn't broaden it to include all of those other language groups. In my part of the country, quite frankly, the French isn't the minority that requires language services. That would be the Chinese and the Punjabis who end up in our Canadian hospitals without an understanding of what's going on around them. Why did you choose the Canada Health Act instead of the Official Languages Act? MarcelProulxHull—AylmerMaurilBélangerHon.Ottawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1700)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'm going to follow up on Mr. Finlay's questions, because I was going to ask the same thing. I am amazed you can all of a sudden come up with $1.3 million because you have this backlog, and you're telling us you always have this backlog. I appreciate that you can get everybody doing other things into handling complaints, but my understanding of the Human Rights Commission is that it was designed to handle complaints. That should be the sole purpose of the Human Rights Commission. Why wouldn't all of your resources, all of the time, be going towards handling the complaints so that you don't have this outstanding backlog?It's hard for me to accept the fact that people can only handle doing one thing. I don't know anybody in this room who does one thing. And if the complaints are as you said, it shouldn't be that difficult to get through a process. A lot of them go to mediation. Why can't you handle more than 500 complaints a year?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]What percentage goes towards education and promotion? And when you say education, are we talking about going into the schools, or are we talking about putting advertisements in newspapers for more than you would pay to do other things?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]I'm going to interrupt, because I get four minutes; I don't even get eight minutes. You talk about promotion. You have been criticized in the past for doing an awful lot of international travel. Is this something you put off as promotional and educational? Why would the Canadian Human Rights Commission be spending the amount of money they were spending on travel in foreign countries when you have a backlog of 500-plus or 600-plus cases to resolve?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]I guess the concern is there was a problem in the Human Rights Commission with staff. There were accusations of sexual harassment and of all kinds of problems that, coming in the Human Rights Commission, really are just not acceptable. That's why you're here: to represent a person who has that kind of complaint. If that kind of complaint is coming out of the organization, it would indicate there's a problem, and if you're spending your time travelling internationally, who is dealing with and trying to resolve the issues at the commission?Another thing I would like to ask before I get cut off here—MichelleFalardeau-RamsayBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English]Okay, I'll come back.BethPhinneyHamilton MountainMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1705)[English] So the accusations are not accurate, then. Is that right?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to address this issue on page 5 in your comments, about the fourth paragraph. You talked about the workplace assessment survey. I thought, on questioning, that you said the workplace assessment survey was done in April 1999. BethPhinneyHamilton MountainMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]I misunderstood you, then. What was done in April 1999?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]I'm new to this committee. Have you not appeared before this committee since that time?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]So is this the first appearance you've made since 1999?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]Well, the actual thing was September 1998. Ms. Michelle Falardeau-Ramsay: It might be, yes. Ms. Val Meredith: So this is the only opportunity you've had to come here.Ms. Michelle Falardeau-Ramsay: Yes. Ms. Val Meredith: Is it the only invitation you've received?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]Well, I would think, Madam Chairman, that was remiss on our part, to wait three years to have the Human Rights Commission appear before us to answer on this.MichelleFalardeau-RamsayBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]Could we get a copy of the questions from the survey that you had taken in the workplace, the workplace assessment surveys that you had the employees fill out?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Management didn't do it.Ms. Michelle Falardeau-Ramsay: Exactly.Ms. Val Meredith: So then the questions were put together by the consultant and the employees themselves.Ms. Michelle Falardeau-Ramsay: And the employees themselves.MichelleFalardeau-RamsayJohnFinlayOxford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Of 2002?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Of 2001.MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English] So that's already a year old.MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]So would you feel that this result from this survey of your employees would be accurate a year later?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]I'm going to run out of time again. Could you provide that in written form, a summation of what you've accomplished, as far as your statistics of employment are concerned?Ms. Michelle Falardeau-Ramsay: Oh, yes.Ms. Val Meredith: Thank you.MichelleFalardeau-RamsayBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Then my last question is this: You took a lot of criticism for giving performance bonuses when there was turmoil in your establishment. Have you established criteria for giving performance bonuses? Have you developed some measurement of performance, achievement, in order to qualify for performance bonuses?BethPhinneyHamilton MountainMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Why do you call it a performance bonus if they get it for the job they are doing? Then it's just part of their pay scale, is it not?MichelleFalardeau-RamsayMichelleFalardeau-Ramsay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]So it's Treasury Board guidelines, then.MichelleFalardeau-RamsayBethPhinneyHamilton Mountain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1605)[English]Well, actually, Philip asked my question. Funding isn't an issue. You feel you would have adequate funds to sponsor the conference and the operating costs of the NGO that's going to be responsible for this.ShawnMurphyHon.HillsboroughJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1605)[English] My understanding from what you said earlier, though, was that in order to avoid corruption, you were going to keep it as far away from parliamentarians, or from the politics, as possible.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1605)[English]If the money is being handled by non-governmental organizations, but it is really a parliamentary association, to whom do the collectors of the money answer to? To whom do they report and to whom are they accountable for their operations?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1605)[English]But to whom will it be answerable? To whom is it accountable for how the money is spent?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1605)[English]Let me assume the role of devil's advocate. The Auditor General expressed a concern that governments were establishing these independent, third-party organizations that became removed from her ability to audit their books and processes. How is this going to be any different from those organizations with which she indicated having a problem? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1605)[English] Will reports be tabled in the House of Commons?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1605)[English]The question is, will they be? Is this something where the organization will be reporting back to the parliaments supporting the representatives?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1610)[English]Thank you.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertRobertMiller//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1610)[English]Thank you.RobertMillerShawnMurphyHon.Hillsborough//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]I may have misunderstood what Philip was asking. Is there going to be a conflict between what Mexico is trying to accomplish and us stepping into the mix without them taking the lead? Will they see it as interference on our part? Is that what you meant?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Is this what you envision GOPAC to be all about?ShawnMurphyHon.HillsboroughJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Is this how you envision it unfolding, where you're going into developing countries and sharing experiences?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1650)[English]Thank you.I'm a user, but not a very smart computer person. I would imagine I'm not alone in that. A lot of people working in government departments aren't aware of when you leave a door or a window open. What kind of protection do you provide by giving courses? Who is responsible for that? Is part of this attempt to secure the system making sure the people using it understand that when you use a program and shut it down, you may not have closed the door? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertMichelled'AurayH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]What I'm interested in is not so much what the program is, but who monitors it, who makes sure the people using computer systems know what the secure measures are. If you don't have an audit on a regular basis, how do you know whether your staff are aware of when they're shutting doors? Michelled'AurayH.E.Michelled'AurayH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]So you're telling me there are measures so that if somebody leaves a door open, it will be shut by somebody else or by another part of the systemMichelled'AurayH.E.Michelled'AurayH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]You were referring to a process you have for that where you want input, and so you give out certificates to people who would be using an input on a regular basis with the government. How do you determine who gets those certificates? What kind of control is there on the individuals you would allow that kind of access to a more in-depth information base?Michelled'AurayH.E.Michelled'AurayH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1655)[English]So there's a screening to indicate whether or not a person is who they say they are, but they may still be an individual you don't want to give the information to. Do you do screening on that?Michelled'AurayH.E.Michelled'AurayH.E.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1545)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you both for showing up and being prepared to answer our questions.I want to deal with the concern of Ms. Fraser on the lack of knowledge, or the lack of information, that she feels, as I understand it, the CCRA receives in determining high risk, in determining those shipments that you need to be concerned about. Where do you get your information? Is it adequate, and is it shared broadly with the people who are in the intelligence community, that is, from CSIS, the RCMP, and any American counterparts? Do you receive information that allows you to assess risk, and how widely is it shared ?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]Do all of the major crossings have equipment now that interacts with the other immigration information systems--the RCMP information system, CSIS's information system, and your own? At all major crossings do you have a system that interacts with all of the others?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]I know that, but the customs system, as I understand, apart from CPIC, doesn't talk to the RCMP, or CSIS, or Immigration. So do you have a system in place, or are you planning a system, with links to all the various information systems so your front-end officers will have immediate access to the information they need to determine risk?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1550)[English]Dealing with the concept that you have to deal with the Food and Drugs Act, the agricultural act, the Immigration Act--there's a horrendous number of acts that you have to be watching for and enforcing--how much training do your people have in the agricultural act and on what is admissible and what isn't?Another question I'd like to ask is, given the Auto Pact, why is there all of the checking in and checking out with the number of trucks that are going back and forth between Windsor and Detroit, carrying the same part back and forth, back and forth, in the assembly of cars? Why would you demand that kind of paperwork when there's not any duty to be paid on it?SheilaFraserDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1555)[English]What about the paperwork for the Auto Pact? DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have two areas.I just want to support the student program. I cross the border on a fairly regular basis, and I have not noticed any inefficiencies on the part of the students as opposed to regular customs officers. But I'd like to know whether the audit that was done looked at their performance, and the percentage of the students' finds. Did you check to see whether the students are finding contraband, or inadmissible items, as often as full-time or regular customs officers? Was their performance looked at? Were they performing at an acceptable rate?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Wouldn't that be part of a performance report that should be done on employees?SheilaFraserDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Thank you. I guess I had three issues.The other one is that NEXUS is going to have a user fee. It will cost people to get into the pre-clearance program. Because this program is going to be shared with the United States, where does the money go? Who gets the money, and will it be applied to the equipment or to the administration? How are you going to account for the money collected from people who comply with the pre-clearance program?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Where do these fees go? Do we get half, or...DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Thank you.My last question regards agricultural products. In my riding there are vegetable growers, and there are always cases of anti-dumping issues or tariff and duty things coming up. Does the customs officer at the border have an opportunity to know when something should not be coming in and to refuse entry?Mr. Denis Lefebvre: Mr. Jordan will reply to this question.DenisLefebvreMikeJordan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]That may well be, but when you're talking about people who are growers and the market is being flooded by produce coming up from the States at a time when it shouldn't be, anti-dumping complaints take a long time in many places to come to any conclusion. That doesn't help the growers who are competing with stuff being dumped on their markets.Is there anything in law? If you're protecting Canada and applying the trade regulations, duties, and tariffs, can they refuse entry of a product they know is being dumped?MikeJordanMikeJordan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Does that also apply to dangerous goods such as nuclear waste material and toxic materials? Is it the same process, a behind-the-scenes kind of...MikeJordanDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]I did, but I've lost my train of thought. I'll pass.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]My question is for the Auditor General. When you were studying commercial traffic, did you tie in a study of the infrastructure, either from Government Services or Transportation? Were you able to connect, to look beyond just the one department's approach to it?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1710)[English]If in your audits you reach the point where you see an overlap of issues that create a problem, should you not maybe start looking at how Government Services, Transportation, and CCRA deal with a certain element? Is that possible in your--SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1205)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think I'll introduce a few new concepts, and I'm going to probably disagree with members of all parties here.First off, I disagree with my colleague on the idea that there should be more than one per parliamentary session for every member. The reason I say that is because my colleague across the way, Mr. Breitkreuz, has had dozens, and I got my name drawn for the first time this Parliament; in the last Parliament my name was never drawn. So I think it's unfair that a member of Parliament should have to wait for their name to be drawn; and if it's not drawn you have no opportunity, let alone a voting opportunity. So I think there there should be some allowance that every single member of Parliament has an opportunity in that Parliament to put an idea on the table for discussion.The other issue that I think has to be brought up is that it's not good enough just to say that every item should be votable. I had a private member's bill in the first Parliament that did go through the House of Commons unanimously, pass second reading, and go into committee stage, at which point I had to fight like anything to get the committee to even deal with it. And sitting on the committee it was sent to, I was able to do that. If I had not been sitting on that committee, it probably would never have been brought up. Having had it brought up, I watched it go through the committee process, where it was completed destroyed and never reported back to Parliament. I would assume that when an item is passed at second reading by Parliament, the least a committee can do is review that bill and report it back to Parliament for a subsequent dealing. I don't think any committee in this House of Commons should have the right to take a private member's bill and destroy it without even having a name to report back to Parliament, which is how the process works. I think to have every private member's bill votable is a worthy concept, but the system has to change beyond that in order for that private member's bill to be dealt with with respect and through the parliamentary process. And to have committees that, whether you like it or not, are controlled by the government to determine that this private member's bill, whether it's a government private member's bill or an opposition private member's bill, never sees the light of day back into Parliament is I think a breach of parliamentary privilege for that member of Parliament. So I say there has to be a better system of allowing every member of Parliament to participate in the process. There has to be some acknowledgment that it's meaningful by making them all votable. It's naive to think that you can debate something for two hours and change the Criminal Code, but we've done that in the House of Commons before, where all parties have debated stuff for two hours or less, and it's become law. So I don't think that it's unreasonable if it's well written, clear, precise, for a person to say I agree with it or I don't agree with it after three hours of debate. I just think we're going to have to take this beyond private members' bills being votable. We're going to have to look at committee structure as a follow-up to handling these.PeterAdamsHon.PeterboroughPeterAdamsHon.Peterborough//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1625)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a couple of questions. One, the Treasury Board has a guideline for internal audits. Does your department or your commission have these internal audits that are expected of other departments?John G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]Do these outside audits come up with recommendations of how you can do things more efficiently, better, etc.? //www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English] On that issue of contract availability, how many available contractors would you have on your list, and how do you select them? What is the process for picking a few people who are available for contract purposes?MichaelMcLaughlinMichaelMcLaughlin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English]This inventory you carry is open. If I have an accounting firm and I want to be part of the process, I merely send in the information and I become part of that inventory.MichaelMcLaughlinMichaelMcLaughlin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1630)[English]Thank you.Do you find there is--I'm trying to think of a nice way of putting it--a problem with a government you are auditing having control of how much money they're going to give you each year? In other words, do you ever feel there might come a time when the government might not appreciate the results of your efforts and would decide to cut your budget to prevent you from doing the more in-depth audit? Do you ever feel that might be an issue? Have you come across that kind of feeling? You said it took a year for them to respond in kind. Is that part of the problem?MichaelMcLaughlin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1620)[English]I hope I'll get another full round, because I think I'll need more than four minutes.The Chair: We'll see what we can do.Ms. Val Meredith: I want to follow up on what Mr. Bryden was getting into, which was the non-commercial projects that you are sponsoring and supporting. I want to know a couple of things. One, what percentage of your business is that? What percentage do the non-commercial who are not going to be paying back the money... how much are they taking out of the pot? My understanding is this is all about creating long-term jobs, viable jobs, and the two examples you used I'm a little confused about, because I don't see them as creating long-term jobs--other than maybe an administrative job for that particular group. I don't see them as creating a business that will create long-term, sustainable jobs.So number one, what's the percentage of these non-commercial projects? Number two, what's the goal, the intent, and are you able to measure whether or not these non-commercial projects are measuring up to what the intent is?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]Well, you're taking up my time--The Chair: We won't count that.Ms. Val Meredith: Thank you.But that's my point, because I sat on human resources and did the unemployment issue, and it's quite clear to me that a lot of businesses in Atlantic Canada use whatever resources they have to create employment on almost a short-term basis to put a number of people through their business. Now, what I want to know is, are your goals to create full-time employment for one individual? Are we talking about a full-time position for two or three people over a period of time in order to qualify them for employment insurance? Are you clear in what the objectives of your program are, and can they be measured in a precise way? Is it one person who gets a full-time position that will last for 10 years? Or is it three or four people a year who fill a full-time position?DennisWallaceDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1625)[English] But can it be measured?DennisWallaceDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Is it working? These programs that you're investing the money in, Mr. LeBlanc, that you've just talked about, are they working? The money that you've invested in these school programs, in the trade missions, and in all of these other things, is there any measurable benefit from spending taxpayers' money in that area? Can you measure that this is, as you put it, cost-effective for the government? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertPaulLeBlanc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]No, but you can measure a change of attitude. Have you done anything--PaulLeBlancPaulLeBlanc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English] You said your programs are two and a half times more successful than all new businesses in Atlantic Canada. That doesn't say a lot if 90% of the new businesses fail. In real terms, what is the failure rate of the businesses you help out? What percentage of them cannot sustain themselves once you withdraw your funds?PaulLeBlancDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]I'm not saying that. I'm saying if that is the rate, then two and a half times better isn't that good.DennisWallaceDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]But you're still not really answering my question. I notice in the Auditor General's report that $60 million in that portfolio is in substantial arrears, owed by insolvent businesses or businesses in other forms of non-compliance. As I understand the report, the concern is that there isn't monitoring of that portfolio, that file of $60 million, that it's not adequate. My concern is that it seems like a lot of money. You're telling me that you're two and a half times more successful than all other new businesses, yet you're still recording $60 million in money you cannot collect. My supplemental to that is this. Are you rigorous--as rigorous as the banks of Canada--in trying to get back that $60 million?DennisWallaceDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1640)[English]Just as a follow-up to that--John G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English] I think you get right back to my concern. Are you making short-term work for a whole bunch of people, when in the long-term picture the economic well-being of the Atlantic region is no better, really, than what it has been in the past?I want to follow up on where the conversation has gone. I understood 57.5% of the dollars goes into the non-commercial or non-payable funds. It's a substantial amount of money. I can see where there might be an issue. If you're lending money to a business, the business isn't going to want you in their space every month auditing and monitoring. I would certainly think, for the 57.5% of non-commercial funds, there should be more of an ongoing dialogue.How are you doing? Where are you going? Are you achieving the goal you have established? Is there a reasonable result from the financial assistance we're giving you? Can you survive without it?' My experience in other government programs is there's dependency written into it. They get it the first year and then get it the second year. Is there an ongoing monitoring of the 57.5%?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]Is there a constant reminder to these groups that this isn't going to be supported forever? Have you ever considered a one-year timeframe in that if you perform and meet certain parameters, maybe you'll get it a second year?DennisWallaceDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]So that's how you dole out the funds?DennisWallaceDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]And if they don't, they're let loose. You'd say sorry, we don't think this is working out. It's been fun, but we don't feel that your project is sustainable and is meeting its objectives, and therefore we're not prepared to support you any longer.DennisWallaceDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1700)[English]Is it happening?DennisWallaceDennisWallace//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, Canadian Alliance): (1615)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much for appearing before us, Ms. Fraser. I'm overwhelmed, I guess, by the information you provide and your predecessors have provided. I'm going to follow up on Mr. Bryden's line of questioning. You indicate problems with the process. You indicate decisions are being made with the creation of these foundations in such a way that they're not accountable to government or Parliament. At what level of the department are these decisions being made? Does the minister have to sign off on them? When you have contracts that are being given without due process, who signs off on them? At what level is there a breakdown in using the processes that are set in place?John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1615)[English]I want to go back to that. You talk about the Department of Public Works, the Department of Health. Who is ultimately responsible in those departments for making sure their employees, their managers are complying with the regulations that are in place? At what level does that stop? Is it the deputy minister level? Is it the minister level? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1615)[English]Then my follow up question is, did you find in your audit that there was a constant presence of the minister or the minister's office in trying to get foundations to respond to concerns they may have, to Health Canada issues? Is there evidence that the minister's office has been involved in the decisions to put in cold storage a communications system?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]I'm not concerned whether it's inappropriate, what I'm concerned about is whether the minister is aware that these things are happening in the department? Are they part of the flow of information, or are decisions being made and things being done that don't even reach the minister, when he or she is ultimately responsible for the results of spending taxpayers' money?SheilaFraserJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]No, it's addressed generally, to Public Works, to Health Canada, to Defence.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1620)[English]My final question is on the foundations. If the government is giving taxpayers' dollars to foundations and you have found that there's no accountability, did you come up with a method whereby these foundations could report back to Parliament, could report back to the government, so there could be a connection between the government and how that taxpayers' money is actually being used and whether it's used for the purposes?SheilaFraserSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. It concerns me, quite frankly, that the government members don't see a problem with what you've indicated in your report. It concerns me that an individual would say they don't really want to know what the foundations do with the taxpayers' money. I'd like to know, if you can tell me, how we in Parliament can keep some kind of control, or at least have the requirement for them to justify the money they did receive, whether they deserve to get any more, and say what they've accomplished. I would assume that when the federal government is giving money to foundations, it's to accomplish a task, a function in public policy, and yet what I understand you to be saying is that there's no audit as to whether they've accomplished anything. They just get more money the next year. You've said some of these foundations have received money for 10 years, and yet there's been no accounting process to show whether or not they've met any of the requirements or any of the considerations upon which they were given money in the first place. How do we in Parliament do that? Let me rephrase that. How does the government do that through Parliament, seeing they're the ones who run the show in Parliament right now? How do they get a function for these foundations to report back and to account for how they're spending taxpayers' money? Is it at the time of the legislation that establishes them? Is it through the budgeting process? Is it through Treasury Board guidelines? How do we do that? John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertSheilaFraser//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1635)[English]Thank you. SheilaFraserJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1650)[English]I will maybe clarify on the duty-free. I think what happens is that the bridge authority owns the building, owns the land, and that does pose a dilemma. In duty-free situations the land is owned by an individual, and it would be difficult for a landowner who owns the building and the premises to have it put up for contract or for tender. So maybe the department has to look at their whole policy with duty-frees. I think that's what you pointed out in your report, that the whole process needs to be reviewed as to how the duty-free situation is addressed.I want to go back to the foundations and the situation we find ourselves in. Maybe Mr. Shepherd does know that the foundation is spending money wisely, but why isn't it reported back to Parliament? Why aren't the foundations reporting back to Parliament? Again, my concern is that Parliament in itself hasn't the ability to change it, it is the government of the day that has to be committed to making these changes through Parliament, and I hope the members here will take it back that the government needs to be addressing in a very serious way the accountability of where taxpayers' money is going and whether it's meeting the mandate under which it's been given to the foundations to act on behalf of the Canadian taxpayers.John G.WilliamsSt. AlbertJohn G.WilliamsSt. Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, PC/DR): (1210)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm really delighted to hear what you've had to say. I think it's about time. I'm interested to know what you mean by “early summer”. Are you going to get NEXUS up and running before the summer rush hour, when we have four- or five-hour lineups at the border in B.C.? Is it possible?OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1210)[English]Good. We may have it by summer. There was some concern. Of course, we've had the CANPASS program. I know it didn't have quite the same degree of security. I can see why we will now be having NEXUS.There was a concern raised. The CANPASS program, of course, was $25 initially. Then when it was realized that the government was making more money than the cost of the program, they reduced it to zero. There was no cost for Canadians to buy the CANPASS program. The number that's been floating out there is $125 for the NEXUS program at a cost per individual for the card. Is it in the ballpark of what you were referring to as “some of the cost”?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1210)[English]Following up on that, tens of thousands of people belong to that CANPASS program. When is the process going to start for registering those individuals, if this is to be up and running in the summer, so the clearances and all that can be done?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English] I agree wholeheartedly that we have to move in that direction, but if that kind of process is going to be effective, the information you are collecting has to be shared broadly. I mean that in terms of law enforcement officers, customs officers, and immigration officers on both sides of the border. Is that going to happen, and will this screening process be done with all those agencies coordinated?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]Good. Will you provide the customs action plan to the committee, so we can all get copies of that?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]You were talking about a change in your perspective on putting more resources on the external border entry points--the airports and seaports. How many staff members do you have at the seaports and airports right now?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]Is it something you see expanding? As part of this process, will you be putting more customs officers at seaports? I guess I'm really interested in the seaports at this time.DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English] So you are beefing up the seaports as well.DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English] With your NEXUS program and the other program, CSA--Mr. Denis Lefebvre: CSA, customs self assessment.Ms. Val Meredith: Right. You talked about not being able to control the infrastructure issues, that that's sort of out of your purview. Have you at least identified where the infrastructure failures are or the inefficiencies are, so that somebody else can deal with it? Have you done an assessment of the requirements for all your border crossings--I would even include seaports and airports in that--in order to facilitate a greater flow of traffic, container traffic and whatnot?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1215)[English]I guess for now my final question...I'm trying to think. At La Croix, you said the traffic flow has almost returned to normal. Is that typical of all the land border crossings?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]Somewhat. It was down, I believe, 30% just after 9/11.DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]Is that standard across the continent?Mr. Denis Lefebvre: Yes. Oh, there may be exceptions. You can add the tunnel in Windsor. There are more changes in a few places, but it's pretty standard.Ms. Val Meredith: Thank you, Mr. Chair.DenisLefebvreOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1235)[English]I just have a very short question. I had it on my notes here and forgot to ask. I understand that with the Auto Pact, which has been in place for 30-plus years, there aren't any duties collected from the automobile makers, and a part may go back and forth across the border seven or eight times before it's actually in a car. If no duties are collected, and if this movement is so back and forth, why do they have to do all the paperwork? Why do they have to tie everything up by doing masses of paperwork when no duties are collected?OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1235)[English]But even with CSA, if there are no duties collected, what is the purpose of their doing all the paperwork?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1235)[English]I'm talking specifically about the Auto Pact.DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1235)[English]But if Revenue Canada or CCRA is already doing that--collecting and recording the GST--why would you have to duplicate it?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1235)[English]I guess my question is whether there is redundancy in some of the paper we have traditionally collected and passed back and forth. Have we looked at the redundancy of a lot of this paper transaction we get, to make the system more efficient?DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1235)[English]That self-assessment can be done away from the congested border areas.DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1235)[English]So you take that whole process away from the border crossing to somewhere else.DenisLefebvreDenisLefebvre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1235)[English]Good.Thank you.DenisLefebvreOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, PC/DR): (1115)[English]I certainly will be supporting the motion. The thing that concerns me is that the transport committee gets consumed with Public Works or Government Services. I think if it wasn't apparent three months ago, it's certainly apparent now that we need to have a separate standing committee for Government Services. That committee should be struck with this issue, as well as the issue that was raised earlier. OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1125)[English]It's the same parent company, though.PaulSzaboMississauga SouthPaulSzaboMississauga South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think our concern from this committee should be a little bit broader than just this one report. I'm a little concerned that we have only nine companies across our country that apparently qualify for doing this kind of work. I would like information as to how they were chosen, who they are, and how much money they have received in the last fiscal year for doing this sort of thing. Do they widely and broadly represent the provinces of this country? I'd like to know more information about this list of nine. I would like to be provided--I think this committee should be provided--with the parameters of who the nine are, information about the nine, how they're chosen, and how much money they've made over the last fiscal year in doing this kind of stuff for the government.OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]The fact that they're putting money back into the Liberal coffers—I'm not as concerned about that, at this point in time, as I am about the parameters of the nine and information about them. OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1145)[English]I agree to call the question, as long as my request for further information is on the table. If you want a motion to that effect-- OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1150)[English]Well, I am requesting it. PaulSzaboMississauga SouthOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, PC/DR): (1715)[English]Good afternoon.MarcelProulxHull—AylmerMarcelProulxHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Not for a long, long time, but I'm here again.MarcelProulxHull—AylmerMarcelProulxHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]I'll be brief.The Chair: Thank you.Ms. Val Meredith: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to be here representing my private member's bill, Bill C-292. As you can tell by the number, it has been in the hopper for a long time waiting for the luck of the draw. This bill makes it unlawful for the killing or capturing of wildlife...or the unlawful sale of wildlife parts an offence under the Criminal Code of Canada. This bill would give the provincial wildlife authorities and crown counsel the option of proceeding with charges under the relevant provincial legislation or, if they believe the case is more egregious, under these sections of the Criminal Code.This bill does not contradict or overlap the current species at risk legislation before the House or any other federal legislation, but rather, would complement it. This bill was designed to target the organized poaching of big game animals or the illicit sale of animal parts. While these activities are currently illegal under provincial legislation, the limited penalties that provincial legislation can impose have created little deterrence, and in many cases they are viewed as just the cost of doing business.This bill does not intrude on provincial jurisdiction, but rather will enhance it. Provincial officials will have the sole determination if offences prosecuted within their jurisdiction are proceeded with under provincial legislation or under this federal legislation. This is similar to previous parliaments deciding that the most serious motor vehicle offences should not remain strictly provincial offences but must be prosecuted under the Criminal Code.MarcelProulxHull—AylmerValMeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—Langley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGIntervention(1715)[English] This bill also incorporates the proceeds of crime legislation to remove any financial incentive for committing these types of offences.Mr. Chair, I feel this bill would be a very good votable bill. It is an issue that all parties could see themselves commenting on. Certainly it's something that has shown itself to be a problem with bear parts particularly, in my part of the country, as well as with bighorn sheep in the Rockies. I just feel this would give the necessary officials who have to deal with it the opportunity to treat it in a serious enough manner that perhaps we could stop the poaching and illegal killing of big game animals.I rest my case.ValMeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyMarcelProulxHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]You bet.MarcelProulxHull—AylmerMarcelProulxHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]It's pretty straightforward.MarcelProulxHull—AylmerMarcelProulxHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]Well, thank you.MarcelProulxHull—AylmerMarcelProulxHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, PC/DR): (1650)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I can't tell you gentlemen what a delight it is to have some witnesses who not only agree with the direction in which I think we should be going, but are pushing the agenda and the envelope.I always like to refer to a statement that Dr. Papademetriou of the Carnegie Foundation once made, that Mexico and Canada are on the same continuum with the relationship with the United States, but just in different places, different spots. Having visited the Canada-U.S. border situations, as well as the Mexican-U.S. border situations, I came away feeling that if only more Canadians actually could experience the potential of the relationship between the three countries, they might be a little bit more willing to open it up.But I have to ask you, because in my years of working on the border management issues it has become very clear to me that when you talk about institutions, about the need to have developed institutions, it's the institutions that are getting in the way of this happening. It's the institutions of Canada customs and U.S. customs, of Canada immigration and U.S. immigration, of our various trade groups that continually pit one against the other as to who's in control, who's going to be the first one to give a little.I don't know the Mexican situation as well. I don't think they're quite as advanced, if you will, in this area. But I know in our discussions of the Canada-U.S. border accord, we had an individual who was from the bureaucracy--and I'm not going to say which side of the border, and I'm not going to say which part--who said there are about 152 regulations preventing this from happening.My comment was, why don't we tell the politicians and the people who can change the regulations and the laws what those 152 regulations are, so that we can get on with it? Nothing has happened from that point on. So how do we overcome this institutional resistance to changing the way things are being dealt with now, that allows us to progress to these other stages that you've placed before us?I have another question, specifically to you, Dr. Thomas, on subsidies. How do we get transparency in it? I don't know how many of our trade disputes come to the point of accusations of subsidies, yet I'll tell you, when I drive through the desert of southern California and I'm looking at all these irrigation canals, that's a direct subsidy to the farmers in the United States that's never talked about in trade agreements or in comparison to the subsidies that we're having, the softwood lumber issue.Because we do something differently doesn't mean it's a subsidy. Because our provincial governments control the manner in which these resources are being used doesn't make it any more of a subsidy than some of the American ways of manufacturing or of using the resource. So how do we get over these issues of institutionalization, rather than creating new ones?JeanAugustineEtobicoke—LakeshoreJeanAugustineEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1715)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to continue this discussion because this is really the crux of what we have to overcome. And I'm going to give you a chance, Mr. Haynal, to respond to the bureaucracy and the problems we have there. We have enormous barriers to making this thing work, not just with the politicians down in the States, but also with the politicians here in Canada and in Mexico. Some of it is our reluctance to trust the United States, and some is a fear of cheap labour in Mexico taking our jobs. Is it just that we're so far ahead of the pack? Is this a futuristic kind of trail we're on, where others will catch up over time but you can't push it?I'm frustrated with the slowness with which this thing is moving, including finding acceptance to even get it into debate. You happen to be the first witnesses I've heard even talking about the North American concept. How do we break through the bureaucracy and the politicians to get this debate on the agenda for more than just one committee meeting?JeanAugustineEtobicoke—LakeshoreJeanAugustineEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1720)[English]Good. And Canada has often shown the leadership.JeanAugustineEtobicoke—LakeshoreJeanAugustineEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, PC/DR): (1130)[English]I appreciate your comments. I attack this from a different level than my colleagues.I want to ask if you think it's feasible to be considering hours of driving without considering all the other factors that are part of the trucking industry--the infrastructure, the time of day they are moving, the increased commercial traffic on the roads. Can you isolate one element of it and study it without contemplating all the other things that are involved? I mean, 43,000 accidents sounds like a hell of a lot of accidents, but consider the number of trucks on the road at any given time and that for the most part our roads have only two lanes of traffic--not all of them, some are four lanes, divided.How can you isolate one element and study it only?OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundDerekSweet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1130)[English]My question is not what are you doing. I would assume that you and the Department of Transport are looking at all these issues. I'm asking you if it's realistic for us as a committee to be taking out of this whole package of crashes and fatalities involving commercial vehicles on our highways the one element of commercial transportation and saying this is going to be the one area we will study. Should we not be expanding it to look at the other issues? How can you say it was only the fact that this guy had driven so many hours, and it wasn't that it was a two-lane road and somebody quickly came in front of him and he couldn't stop in time, so there was nothing he could have done anyway? We're assuming it was because he was fatigued. It may not have been, because there are many other factors in commercial transportation.DerekSweetDerekSweet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGIntervention Ms. Val Meredith: (1135)[English]I apologize that I have to leave now, but in your opinion, can we do it? Can we justify it?DerekSweetBrianOrrbine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1135)[English]Thank you, and my apologies.BrianOrrbineOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, PC/DR): (1130)[English]We've already voted on that.OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1140)[English]I'd like to ask the clerk if his opinion, and I may not agree with it, is that Parliament cannot call the ethics counsellor to appear before Parliament.OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundRichardDupuis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1140)[English]I ask that because the committee has the same jurisdiction as Parliament, as I understand it, so if Parliament can call before it an officer, it's done through committees. I would hope that anybody who works for the Prime Minister's Office or the House of Commons could be called before Parliament. If that's the case, the ethics counsellor should be able to be called before Parliament, and thus this would happen through the committees. I would hope that the ethics counsellor could be called before Parliament.RichardDupuisOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith (South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, PC/DR): (1105)[English]Yes, it is.OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1105)[English]Yes, Mr. Chair, I gave the 48-hour notice for this motion, and I'd like to place it on the table for discussion. The motion reads:That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), Jon Grant, former Chair of the Canada Lands Company, be invited to appear before the Committee to answer questions regarding all aspects of the working relationship between the Minister of Public Works and Government Services, his staff, and Canada Lands Company, during his tenure as Chair of the Crown Corporation.I place that motion on the table, and I would like to be replaced at this time by my colleague, Mr. Jim Pankiw, who will follow up any discussions on this motion.OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundJamesMooreHon.Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1105)[English]If that's the case, Mr. Chair, if I could have the floor, I would like my motion carried over until this committee reconvenes after the vote.OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English] He's placing them on the table now, right? Can we go back to my motion now?OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English]For the second time, the motion is: That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), Jon Grant, former Chair of the Canada Lands Company, be invited to appear before the Committee to answer questions regarding all aspects of the working relationship between the Minister of Public Works and Government Services, his staff, and Canada Lands Company, during his tenure as Chair of the Crown Corporation. OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen Sound//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1562ValMeredithVal-MeredithSouth Surrey—White Rock—LangleyConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/37/Meredv.JPGInterventionMs. Val Meredith: (1220)[English] I will give my spot to my honourable colleague.OvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundOvidJacksonBruce—Grey—Owen SoundINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE