//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0271st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, February 29, 2024Le jeudi 29 février 2024Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTFebruary 29, 2024CommitteeNUMBER 027NUMBER 027NUMÉRO 027027290220242024/02/29 11:05:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144GregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1100)[Translation]Colleagues, I see that all official political parties recognized in the House of Commons are represented here and we have the quorum required to start the meeting.Welcome to meeting number 27 of the Board of Internal Economy.Today, the agenda is a bit peculiar: the meeting will start in public, continue in camera, then conclude in public.[English] Colleagues, we have minutes from the previous meeting to approve. [Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1100)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to propose a little change to the previous meeting’s minutes.On page 2 of the French version of the minutes, it refers to an update from the working group for the long-term vision and plan, or LTVP. Given the discussions and presentations we have had, I consider this item incomplete. We approved the working group’s recommendations, except for one, which we did not discuss for reasons explained by the working group’s chair. It is the recommendation regarding the designation and use of the room for indigenous ceremonies.Therefore, this is the first proposal I would make, and I am sure that my colleagues, who are listening attentively to me, will agree: The minutes should specify that this recommendation was not discussed and will be brought forward for discussion during another Board of Internal Economy meeting.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1100)[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I see that on page 2, it reads: “Further discussions are required at the LTVP working group regarding the designation and intended use of the space in the fourth-floor central courtyard infill.” Isn't that consistent with what you're proposing?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1100)[Translation]Indeed, Mr. Chair, I carefully read the documents before every meeting of the Board of Internal Economy. In this case, I wanted the minutes to better reflect what happened during the last meeting. That is my point.The chair of the LTVP working group, Mr. Chris d’Entremont, read his presentation while it was projected to a screen. The interpreters received a text ahead of time. At one point during his presentation, however, Mr. d’Entremont wasn’t following his text anymore. The interpretation provided at that time did not allow me to intervene right away. I consider it a lack of respect for the interpreters. The chair of the LTVP working group knew that he was going to make changes to his presentation, but he did not inform the interpreters. It actually prevented me from working and accurately understanding what was going on.I would like the minutes to reflect the fact that the recommendation about the indigenous room was included in those recommendations and will be subject to further discussions later. The subject itself is what will be discussed, of course. That said, a recommendation on the matter was submitted to the Board of Internal Economy, but the chair of the working group decided to withdraw it from the list and not discuss it right away. So, there is a little nuance to add here, if my colleagues don’t mind too much. This recommendation was in fact mentioned by the chair of the working group in his oral presentation, and it was part of the presentation projected onscreen, but it was not submitted to the Board of Internal Economy.I am sure the clerk can find the right wording to include what I want to say.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1105)[Translation]I’d like to ask you for some clarification, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. Do you want your recommendation to replace the sentence the chair just read, or would you prefer adding something else to that sentence?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1105)[Translation]I propose wording the sentence in a way that says the LTVP working group’s recommendation on the intended designation and use of that room was presented, but not discussed, and the Board of Internal Economy will continue that discussion during another meeting. That is what I understood. It would be more in line with what happened at the last meeting of the Board of Internal Economy.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectEricJanseGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Does anyone want to comment on Mrs. DeBellefeuille’s suggestion? If not, the proposed changes will be made to the minutes.Mr. Scheer, you have the floor.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (House leader of the official opposition): (1105)[English]To clarify, could you repeat how this would read now? I have only the English in front of me.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1105)[English]It would be something to the effect of "the working group's recommendation on the topic of the designated intended use of the space in the fourth floor central courtyard was not presented for consideration, but will be at a future meeting."Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, does that work for you?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectEricJanseClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1105)[Translation]Yes.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Very well, it’s noted.Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor once again.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1105)[Translation]I’d like to make another comment.I’ve been a member of the Board of Internal Economy for four years, and I think I’m respectful. During the last meeting of the Board of Internal Economy, I was rather surprised that a presentation included on the agenda, given by the entire government team, was almost entirely in English. I had to follow the whole presentation by using interpretation.Mr. Chair, I would like you to make sure that in the future, those who make presentations to the Board of Internal Economy will do so in French as much as they do in English, as is usually the case. I say quite sincerely that the appearance of the RCMP commissioner was only the second time in four years that, as a francophone, I had to follow a presentation made almost entirely in English. I asked a single question, a rather simple one, and was unable to get an answer in French.I wanted to bring it to your attention, Mr. Chair, when it comes to important presentations by officials. Given the positions these people occupy within the public service, I would assume they are able to give presentations and answer questions in both languages. I would like us to be aware of this, Mr. Chair.Language policyGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]It’s on the record. Thank you very much, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.Mr. Gerretson, you have the floor.Language policyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen (Deputy House leader of the government): (1105)[English]No, I'm good. Thank you.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Do we agree to adopt the minutes of the previous meeting, including the suggested changes?(The motion carries.)Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]We will now move on to business arising from the previous meeting.Is there any other business to raise that is not already included in today’s agenda?(1110)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Scheer.Parliamentary meeting roomsTranslation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1110)[English]We wanted to bring up an issue around translation. We know that we've had several meetings over the course of the last couple of years, but we're finding it difficult to find meeting spaces that can accommodate simultaneous translation. As we carry out our parliamentary duties to examine legislation and have shadow cabinet meetings and things like that, it's incredibly important that we, and I believe all parties, have access to spaces that can accommodate simultaneous translation as well as the translators themselves.There's a particular room on the fourth floor, room 435, that I understand has been designated to PCO. They get first crack at it. We're told that it's never used on Tuesdays, I think from 10 o'clock until noon. I wanted to bring it up here just to have a point of discussion, either today or at a future meeting, to talk about spaces for other parties. The government has, of course, many places where they have rooms designed to accommodate simultaneous translation, but parliamentarians don't. We have these buildings. We have have meetings in both official languages, and many of our shadow ministers and many of our MPs are francophones. We're finding inadequate space and inadequate resources to provide that translation. As my colleague from the Bloc just pointed out, when you have a presentation that's done entirely in one language, at least here we have simultaneous translation, but in some of these meetings that we must have to carry out our parliamentary functions, we just don't have it. Some of our members are severely disadvantaged when that happens.I just wanted to bring that up. I know that there are some challenges with human resources, and obviously there's always a challenge with space, but I do think it's important that we either find a way to allocate more resources or find that available space. Parliamentary meeting roomsTranslation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[English]Thank you, Mr. Scheer, for bringing up this issue. Of course, having access to service in both languages is of primary importance for the functioning of this place. Just for a little more precision, is it specific to finding a room in this building or is it in the parliamentary precinct overall?Parliamentary meeting roomsTranslation and interpretation servicesAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1110)[English] The other parties may have other needs, but for our purposes, that particular room, room 435 in the West Block, would be adequate. It has the booths. There was a problem this week, but I understand that it was a technical problem that was temporary in nature and that it's either been fixed or it's going to be fixed. That would certainly solve our problems most of the time, but that is only one room we know of that is free for that particular time.We do also have important meetings that require simultaneous translation at other times of the day, so I guess it's a two-part ask. One would be whether we can find a way to formally free that up from PCO in that one time slot to accommodate the official opposition's shadow cabinet meeting. That would be a specific request. The second request would be that we have a more general conversation about other rooms that might be available that have the capacity to accommodate not just our party but I'm sure other parties as well to have their meetings at various points in the day and throughout the week.Parliamentary meeting roomsTranslation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[English]Thank you for bringing that up.We can work this two ways. We can clearly address the particular concern and we'll be happy to work with you on that one to ensure that you'll be able to have room to conduct your business properly. As for the larger issue in terms of space allocation, is there a desire among the members for us to bring this back at a subsequent meeting? I see a bit of a split, so we'll bring this back up in a general way and hopefully in some of our pre-briefs we might be able to address some of these issues as well.Thank you, Mr. Scheer.Are there any other issues arising from the minutes?(1115)[Translation]There is none.We will now take a short break and continue the meeting in camera to discuss the next item on the agenda.Parliamentary meeting roomsTranslation and interpretation servicesAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1220)The meeting is suspended.[Proceedings continue in camera] [Public proceedings resume]Hon. Greg Fergus: Colleagues, we are back in public. Before we begin discussions on this item, I would like to note that I have sent a letter to you, the members of the board, as well as to the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, stating that I'm recusing myself. Accordingly, I will not participate in the proceedings of the board on this matter. During my absence, during the consideration at this time, it is my understanding that Mr. Scheer will be presiding for the rest of this meeting. I thank members for that. Mr. Scheer, I invite you to take the chair. (1220)(1225)GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1225)[English]Thank you.We'll start with Michel. GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMichelBédardMichelBédardMichel-BédardInterventionMr. Michel Bédard (Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons): (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We are addressing the Board of Internal Economy to obtain its instructions regarding the use of House of Commons resources, by the Speaker of the House of Commons, to produce and distribute a video. The video was released during a provincial political party convention and paid tribute to the former interim party leader.Last December, the Clerk of the House of Commons, in the role of Secretary of the Board of Internal Economy, received correspondence indicating that this use of House of Commons resources ran counter to the Members By-Law.The Speaker confirmed that House resources were used to create and release the video. I also note that the 55th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, adopted by the House of Commons, asked that the Speaker undertake the appropriate steps to reimburse a suitable amount for the use of parliamentary resources that were not related to the performance of parliamentary functions. [English]The Board of Internal Economy has the exclusive authority to determine whether any use of parliamentary resources is proper. If the board finds that the bylaw has been breached, it may impose remedies, such as reimbursement.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppellePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1225)[English]To assist the board in its consideration of the matter, the administration has assessed the value of the House resources. These values and ranges are included in your package. The board may also wish to consider two precedents in which it received the assessment methodology used today and approved a reimbursement of $500 in both cases. This amount was deemed an appropriate remedy for the use of parliamentary office space that was not compliant with the Members By-law. In both cases, no parliamentary resources were used other than office spaces. [Translation]This concludes our presentation.We are available to answer your questions.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsMichelBédardAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1225)[English]I think I saw Mr. MacKinnon's hand go up first. Mr. Julian will be next. PaulSt GeorgeStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1225)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank you for taking on this role. We believe there is precedent, as Mr. St George has said, and that a penalty of $500, which is consistent with past practice, should be applied in this case. Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1225)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Julian. StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1225)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. You're back in the chair. It brings back memories of a few years ago. We went through this process at the procedure and House affairs committee, as you know, Mr. Chair, and worked through a number of remedies or consequences, most of which have already been put in place. In this case, I think this is the last step, which is evaluating the payment back to the House of Commons. I would suggest that it's a bit different in the case of the Speaker than it might be in other cases, or in the use of the Speaker's office. I would suggest a remedy, looking at the grid that was provided to us, of $1,000. I think that would be setting a clear message and precedent. I think it would be appropriate. Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1225)[English] Go ahead, Madame DeBellefeuille.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1225)[Translation]Thank you.I think the comparables used in the analysis by the House of Commons Administration are not adequate. One cannot compare the Speaker’s office to an MP’s office. One cannot compare the cost of using a conference room to the cost of using the Speaker’s office. There is only one Speaker. It’s one of the highest functions of the Parliament of Canada. In that sense, I think the comparables are not adequate. Others must be found.We’re talking here about the institution of Parliament. Yes, there are precedents, but what is at issue here is a precedent created by the Speaker, who wears the distinctive robes associated with this function. The office of the Speaker is unique. It is the highest function in the House.The comparables submitted to us by the administration are inadequate and inexact, in my opinion, and they don’t allow us to correctly assess the corresponding cost of using the Speaker’s office, his robes, and so on. It’s as though we’re considering that it compares with using the resources of a regular MP’s office. That is not the way that I see the role of the Speaker and his office.I think that the administration should review its comparables and submit a new proposal to us. That is my position.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1230)[English]Just so I'm clear, you're not proposing a different amount; you're asking House administration to re-evaluate—Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1230)[Translation]I’m sorry, but I’m not getting the interpretation.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1230)[Translation]Let’s see if you are getting it now.[English]What you're proposing is not a specific monetary value.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1230)[Translation]I’m still not getting the interpretation.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1230)[Translation]Very well, I will try to say it in French, although I am a bit rusty.You’re proposing that the Administration provide a different comparison between the office…Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1230)[Translation]Actually, maybe it’s because you don’t have your earpiece on. I can repeat what I said.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1230)[English]No, I just want to make sure. Is everybody clear with that?Okay. I have Mr. Gerretsen next.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1230)[Translation]Actually, Mr. Chair, what I’m saying is that the comparables used are neither adequate nor relevant. Indeed, we’re not talking about a regular MP’s office here.I’m not telling you anything new when I say I am a separatist. However, I do have respect for the institution that is the House of Commons, and I find it insulting that the Speaker’s office is being compared with a regular MP’s office. The Speaker occupies the highest function of the House.I would therefore ask the House Administration to review its comparables and submit new ones to us.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1230)[English]Thank you.Mr. Gerretsen, go ahead.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1230)[English]I think I will start by testing your chairship with respect to the way BOIE operates. BOIE operates on consensus. How will we get to the bottom of this if it's one amount here and one amount there? Do we keep talking about it until we come to a consensus?I'm asking because I genuinely don't know. I want to understand the rules of engagement.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1230)[English]You are right. The convention is that this body operates on consensus. At various times that has been tested, and it has always been difficult and challenging for whoever the chair happens to be at the time to try to navigate through that.Sometimes if there isn't consensus, one member of the board could effectively be getting a decision in their favour because they withhold consent or agreement with respect to where the rest of the board is going. I think it's early for conjecture as to how we might resolve that.Hopefully we won't get there. This is the first time this item has been dealt with. Hopefully, there can be conversations and discussions through which we can find that common ground.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1230)[English] That's fair.To address the points that were raised by Madame DeBellefeuille, my understanding is that what we're trying to evaluate here is the cost of the resources that were utilized in order to create this video and possibly distribute it by email, or however it was sent. That should be completely independent of any value that is placed on a particular office. We might hold offices to higher regard, and that's understandable and acceptable. However, I understand that the task we have been given is to determine what the value was for the production and distribution of this particular video and for sending it out. I respectfully disagree with the position that I'm hearing from Madame DeBellefeuille on this, specifically because I don't think that we should be weighing the fact that it's the Speaker's office versus another office. The point is that we've come to the determination that particular resources should not have been used, and I don't think it should matter who was using the resources. What is important is that compensation is sought for the usage of those resources, and it shouldn't particularly matter who it was.I think we should come to a conclusion. For the sake of precedent and following precedent, $500 makes the most sense. I realize that both $5,000 and $1,000 are within the range that was presented, so I'm not going to die on this hill, for lack of a better expression, but I think the precedent that has been set dictates this. If we go with Mr. Julian's suggestion of $1,000, I guess we're setting a new precedent in the event that this were to occur again, in which case, if that's what we're doing, then I understand it.A voice: It's $228 to $1700.Mr. Mark Gerretsen: Then both $500 and $1,000 are within the range. I'm not in disagreement with the amount, but I just want to understand why we're departing from a precedent in order to create a new precedent.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1235)[English]I have Mr. Julian and then Ms. Findlay.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1235)[English]If I said $5,000, I apologize. I meant $500 or $1,000.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppellePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1235)[Translation]I'll ask Mr. St George a question.Did the previous cases involve backbenchers or rather official representatives of a recognized party, leaders or ministers?Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1235)[Translation]I'll let Mr. Bédard answer.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMichelBédardMichelBédardMichel-BédardInterventionMr. Michel Bédard: (1235)[Translation]As noted, two relevant precedents set the reimbursement amount at $500.One case was in 2019. The Board of Internal Economy's minutes state that the Prime Minister was involved, but that the resources of the constituency office were used.In the second case, the minutes of the Board of Internal Economy don't identify the member concerned. The briefing note was distributed to the Board of Internal Economy and the decision was made by resolution, on paper. Since the matter was urgent, a decision had to be made.I can provide only the information in the minutes. In both cases, a member's parliamentary office was involved. In both cases, the only resources used were the parliamentary offices.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsPaulSt GeorgePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1235)[Translation]I agree with Mrs. DeBellefeuille that this constitutes a precedent. The approach must send a clear message.Since the Prime Minister was involved in the first case, the amount should be over $500 in this case. In the Speaker's case, $1,000 seems entirely appropriate.Of course, this case is much broader in scope and sets a completely different precedent. I fully agree with Mr. Gerretsen on this point. However, this amount seems both logical and appropriate given that we never want this type of situation to happen again.Mrs. DeBellefeuille asked whether we could review the elements of comparison and revisit this issue at a later date. Remember that the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs has already held meetings on this topic, over a number of days, and that solutions have been proposed. The only thing left is this final step. We have so many other issues to discuss at the Board of Internal Economy. It doesn't make sense to revisit this issue again and again.In my opinion, it would make more sense to send a clear message. As a result, I'm proposing a higher amount than in past cases.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsMichelBédardAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1235)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Findlay.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1235)[English]Thank you.My understanding is that in previous cases, there were offers made. In effect, an offer was made and then accepted at the $500 level, and you could look at that in the form of a settlement offer, but in this situation, no offer has been made. I think $500 is too low. I think $1,000 makes more sense.I don't think we should continue to bring this back before the board. We know what happened. We know where we settled out in our opinions on it. I think it should send something of a message. I don't see the highest range being necessary to get the point across. From our point of view, $1,000 is appropriate.I'd like to see us bring this to a conclusion. I don't think we need to study it any more, frankly.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1240)[English]I have Madame DeBellefeuille, and then I saw Mr. MacKinnon's hand up again. We'll see if we have a consensus after this round.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1240)[Translation]Thank you.First, I would like to remind our colleagues that this topic has been on the agenda a number of times. However, we're discussing the matter for the first time. We can't say that we've been talking about it for long.It's our job to set the amount that reflects the use of resources. It isn't the procedure and house affairs committee's job. Even though the committee recommended an amount, this matter falls outside its purview. The committee may recommend an amount, but the Board of Internal Economy must set it.I gather that we must first determine whether the Members By‑law was violated. I think that you have the answer, Mr. Chair. By using resources in this manner, the Speaker violated the by‑law.We must now assess the amount that reflects the use of the resources. Based on its analysis and the elements of comparison used, the House of Commons administration is proposing between $500 and $1,500. That's the information that I have. When we read the administration's entire presentation, we see the elements of comparison used to set this amount. By comparison, the administration shows that renting a conference room in downtown Ottawa costs between $500 and $1,500, and that a hotel room costs between $190 and $370.The elements of comparison aren't enough to assess the resources used by the Speaker. I believe that the use of the Speaker's office and robes sets a precedent. If we want to assess the resources properly, we must use other elements of comparison.I agree with Mr. Julian. A proper assessment of the amount that reflects a Speaker's use of House resources for partisan purposes shows any other speaker who might want to do something similar how much it would cost.I totally disagree with $500. In my opinion, the use of the Speaker's office and robes and all these resources carries a much greater value and even a much higher value than $1,000.I don't want to get into a debate that would take up three meetings of the Board of Internal Economy. I'm just asking the administration to find other elements of comparison, so that the amount truly reflects the cost of using the resources of the Speaker's office, such as the robes and telephone. We aren't talking about a backbencher. We're talking about the Speaker of the House of Commons, the highest office in the House.I think that the elements of comparison should be reviewed. For example, the cost of a large suite in a major hotel in downtown Ottawa could be assessed. It seems that comparing the Speaker's office to a mere conference room for a day undermines the significance of its use. The cost of a suite in a major hotel seems more comparable.A proper assessment of the real cost of using the House's resources as Speaker would make people think twice before doing it again. This use has a cost. However, that cost can't be compared to what I have in front of me.I want to reassure my colleagues that I don't want to turn this into a debate. I want only a review of the amount that reflects the Speaker's use of the House's resources, such as the office and robes. I think that the amount established is insufficient.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1240)[Translation]Mr. MacKinnon, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1240)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I listened carefully to my colleagues from all parties.With all due respect to Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I think that the analysis has already been done. I have spoken with the people who did the analysis. If they were asked to conduct another analysis, I don't know what grounds they would use to carry out the assessment. Furthermore, this analysis or assessment would cost much more than the individual could reasonably be required to pay.I have a suggestion that I hope will bring this matter to a close.I heard both Mr. Julian and Ms. Findlay talk about a higher amount than suggested. We have also seen the range of amounts proposed. To settle the matter, I would be prepared to accept the proposed amount or even any other amount within the range proposed by the administration, as long as it would set a precedent.I agree with Mrs. DeBellefeuille that the Speaker's position is unique. That said, the previous cases weren't the focus of a study by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, an apology before the members, or any testimony from either side in other parliamentary proceedings. I believe that, in this case, the penalty imposed, if we can call it that, is already much higher.However, to settle everything without prejudice, I agree with any amount within the range proposed by the administration.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1245)[English] I saw Mr. Julian's hand. StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1245)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I just want to say that, as you know, we operate by consensus. I think that all members of the Board of Internal Economy, except possibly one person, agree that the amount should be higher in this case. That includes the suggested amount of $1,000.I don't agree with asking the administration to redo its analysis. Mr. St George did a great job. He provided specific figures. He couldn't be faulted in any way for that. The figures are accurate. I want to thank him for his work. I don't agree with asking the administration to continue the work, come up with other figures and then return to the Board of Internal Economy to discuss them.The idea is to ask Mr. St George to continue the work and use other elements of comparison to assess the amount. He has many other things to do. The proposed amount is $1,000. If we can't reach a consensus on either proposal, we'll end the meeting without having decided on a penalty.I think that most members around the table more or less agreed on $1,000. I gather that some think that it's too much and others think that it isn't enough. In any case, I think that the best approach would be to send a clear message that the Board of Internal Economy agrees that the fine will be higher than usual. I think that this would be the best approach in the last few minutes of the meeting, rather than putting all these issues off indefinitely.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1245)[English]Madame DeBellefeuille, go ahead.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1245)[Translation]As you know, I'm a principled person. I'm not playing politics here. I'm fulfilling the role assigned to members of the Board of Internal Economy, which is to assess resources.I understand that we operate by consensus. I don't want to force a vote. However, I disagree with the $1,000. I think that the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons showed openness. If my other colleagues' positions are firm and no one wants to ask for a review of the proposed amount based on other elements of comparison, I propose that we agree on the highest amount suggested, meaning $1,500.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1245)[English]Okay. Well, why don't we do this?We have two—Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1245)[Translation]That seems reasonable.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1245)[English] I agree.Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1245)[English]Is everyone okay? All right. We'll consider that matter concluded, then.Is there any other business, or should we adjourn right now?Fergus, GregReimbursementSpeaker of the HouseVideo recordingsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockMonaFortierHon.Ottawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96356MonaFortierHon.Mona-FortierOttawa—VanierLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortierMona_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mona Fortier (Deputy government whip): (1245)[English]There's a vote.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1245)[English]There's a vote right now, but I mean for this meeting, because technically I would have to call the Speaker in to adjourn the meeting unless we all want to adjourn right now.MonaFortierHon.Ottawa—VanierMonaFortierHon.Ottawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96356MonaFortierHon.Mona-FortierOttawa—VanierLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortierMona_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mona Fortier: (1245)[English]There are no more items on the agenda, so you can adjourn. A voice: Your reign was short-lived. Voices: Oh, oh! AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Andrew Scheer): (1245)[English]The meeting is adjourned. MonaFortierHon.Ottawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgDaily adjournmentAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0261st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, February 15, 2024Le jeudi 15 février 2024Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTFebruary 15, 2024CommitteeNUMBER 026NUMBER 026NUMÉRO 026026150220242024/02/15 11:00:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144GregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1100)[Translation]Colleagues, we will begin our meeting. I see that we have a quorum, plus a representative from each of the recognized official political parties in the House of Commons.Welcome to meeting number 26 of the Board of Internal Economy.Since we have a rather full agenda, we will move quickly.We'll start with the minutes from the previous meeting.[English]Are there any comments, or would anyone like to approve the minutes arising from the previous meeting?Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen and Madame DeBellefeuille. Are all in favour? (Motion agreed to) Hon. Greg Fergus: Thank you.[Translation]We're moving on to the second item on the agenda, which is business arising from previous meetings.Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1100)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.First, I'd like to talk about the virtual committees dashboard. With your permission, Mr. Chair, I will turn to Mr. McDonald.The results on this are quite impressive, especially in terms of the increase. I'm particularly impressed that the number of minutes spoken in person has increased and the number of minutes spoken virtually has gone down. However, that progression seems to have levelled off.I have a question for you, Mr. McDonald.First, I'd like to thank your team, because I know that it's demanding for the teams to keep a dashboard, which is a self-assessment tool. I proposed this tool because it's the best way to measure how well we are meeting our objectives. I know it's a lot of work, and I want to thank all of your teams.To your knowledge, do many public servants who work on or off the Hill still work from home? I'm trying to see how we could increase the number of in-person appearances; the witnesses who work in the departments, for example, are my first target group.Do you have that data?Public Service and public servantsTranslation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald (Clerk Assistant, Committees and Legislative Services Directorate , House of Commons): (1105)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.No, I don't have that data. We can see if it's possible to provide it to the Board of Internal Economy at the next meeting or to provide it in writing. We don't check that generally. We're not looking at that specifically.I know that the Liaison Committee made an effort to encourage officials to testify in person, and a letter was sent to the Privy Council Office so that this information was sent to all departments. However, I don't have the statistics in front of me. We will find them and get them to you.Public Service and public servantsTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1105)[Translation]In terms of remote interpreting, do you have any preliminary conclusions to present to us? Perhaps you'd like to talk about this at a future meeting, since it's not part of the dashboard.Have you received any comments or feedback from interpretation services, the interpreters or the technology team? Can you quickly tell us how things are going right now?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1105)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We can certainly provide more information on that at a future meeting. We consulted the whips of all parties in January. We haven't changed the system. We've kept the same system and the same remote interpreters, but since we resumed in January, we have changed the way these resources are assigned to committees to make them a little more flexible and to ensure greater availability of resources in order to provide more flexible support to committees.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1105)[Translation]Have you cross-referenced workers' compensation data? For example, has integrating remote interpreting mode reduced or increased workplace injuries related to the work of interpreters? Do you have that data?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentWorkplace health and safetyIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1105)[Translation]I believe Mr. Aouididi has more information on that.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtYassineAouididiYassineAouididiYassine-AouididiInterventionMr. Yassine Aouididi (Senior Digital Product Manager, House of Commons): (1105)[Translation]Good morning, Madam.Mr. Chair, I thank the member for her question.At this stage, the pilot project is going very well, technologically speaking. We've made no specific correlation with respect to workplace accidents.As Mr. McDonald pointed out, the primary goal was to expand the time slots available to committees for this service, in order to maximize the interpreting resources assigned to this service and to give the committees more flexibility here.Again, we've had no issues in terms of technology. Generally speaking, we've had positive consultations with members of Parliament, political parties, the Translation Bureau and interpreters working remotely. Once again, we will continue to keep an eye on this to see if we can find ways to improve things.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentWorkplace health and safetyIanMcDonaldClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1105)[Translation] Mr. Chair, I have one last question.I don’t want to take up so much time that the government leader has a heart attack. It just so happens that we take a lot of time to discuss this subject at the Board of Internal Economy.Mr. McDonald, are you going to cross-reference the data, or can you provide us with this information at a future meeting? I am very satisfied by the fact that, since we resumed our proceedings and remote interpretation was implemented, no committee was cancelled due to lack of resources, even when parliamentary hours were extended. I am always diligent about making sure that this way of doing things contributes to increasing current interpreters’ occupational well-being.I think we are at the point of getting the required resources to do our work.I would be grateful to you if you could provide us with information on cross-referenced data at the next meeting of the Board of Internal Economy. That would help us see if this new way of working causes workplace accidents, and so on. It could be worthwhile to cross-reference the data.Mr. McDonald, you know that we want a large number of interpreters and we don’t want them to get ill. That is why I’m paying close attention to this issue.Once again, as an MP, I only use interpretation, even if there are sometimes sound issues. I can confirm that the sound is not always the same. The quality of the interpretation isn’t always either. However, I am aware that everyone is doing their best to get the best possible results.I thank you and your team, as well as the IT team, for all of the efforts made and your willingness to improve the situation.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyYassineAouididiGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. It’s been noted.We will try to come back with more information at the next meeting.We thank you for your accolades regarding progress made to date.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House leader of the New Democratic Party): (1110)[Translation]I would also like to offer accolades.It is true that we have made progress in terms of health and safety for House of Commons interpreters. Without interpreters, we cannot engage in our democracy and do our work at the House of Commons. They play an extremely important role.I only have one question to ask and it is about interpreters. Every time you come here, we like to ask you the same questions.Have you hired other interpreters since the last time you presented your report? Have you held an exam to recruit more potential interpreters? What do you plan to do by the end of the year in terms of exams for interpreters to hire more of them?The issue of interpreters’ occupational health and safety is obviously important, but the number of interpreters available to us is as well. We have been short-staffed for several years. The problem must be solved now.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Julian.Mr. McDonald, you have the floor.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1110)[Translation]I think those questions should be directed to the Translation Bureau. We will certainly take note of them and send them to the Translation Bureau to get more information, which we will then provide to the Board of Internal Economy.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauWorkplace health and safetyGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[Translation]Are there other questions on this subject? No? Very well.Thank you very much, Mr. McDonald and Mr. Aouididi.[English] We will move to the LTVP working group.Deputy Speaker d'Entremont, please lead us off.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectIanMcDonaldChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont (Chair, Working Group on the LTVP and the Centre Block Rehabilitation, House of Commons): (1110)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As chair of the LTVP working group, I am here today to update the board on the progress on the Centre Block rehabilitation program and what the working group has accomplished over the last two months. We have numerous recommendations for the board’s consideration and approval today. The working group has met several times to ensure that key project elements are being reviewed in a timely manner so that the board can provide key decisions in alignment with the project schedule.As an overall project update, the site work continues to progress very well. PSPC has confirmed that the overall project health remains in line with the planned approved scope, cost and schedule.The 50% design development package for Centre Block was submitted at the end of December by the design consultants and is in full review by our House of Commons project team. A review package submission on this project consists of over 2,000 drawings and over 10,000 pages in the many supporting specifications and reports. The 50% design package for the Parliament welcome centre is expected in March. The working group has four more meetings scheduled this spring to be able to advise on the many key decisions required on behalf of parliamentarians and to support the project's progress.In that regard, and from the latest detailed reviews the working group has been involved in, the following recommendations are proposed for BOIE decisions to facilitate that work. Today we are seeking endorsement on the following key elements: endorsement on the proposed accessibility improvements in the Memorial Chamber and Peace Tower; endorsement for the proposed general layouts for lobbies and new lobby support space; endorsement on the multimedia enablement strategy, including a proposal to look at options for locations of simultaneous interpretation; endorsement of the proposed circulation, excluding material handling; endorsement of the proposed strategy for heritage rooms within Centre Block; and a further update on dedicating space in the fourth floor central courtyard infill.As well, we are seeking endorsement on the overall security approach for the Centre Block welcome centre, but this will be briefed in camera at the end of my presentation.[Translation]There are innate accessibility challenges leading to and within the existing high heritage space of the Memorial Chamber. These challenges are part of the original design to distinguish the significance of what the Memorial Chamber represents and the lives that are honoured within. The materials that were used in the design are also significant themselves, as they are from the battlefields upon which many Canadians fought and died in the First World War.The Working Group reviewed various detailed proposals for improvement and the type of intervention required to provide greater accessibility. We believe a balanced approach is advisable. The following are recommended improvements we are proposing to enhance accessibility during the visitor experience. They are achievable while still respecting the historic and heritage architectural nature of the space.On the slide, you can see the many improvements listed, such as improved access to ramps into the Chamber, incorporation of Braille on the handrails, tactile mapping to help with wayfinding, modification to the angle the Books of Remembrance are displayed for improved viewing and handheld devices to assist viewing on the central altar.Accessibility challenges in the Peace Tower observation deck are also intrinsic to the original architectural design. Public Services and Procurement Canada proposed a low-tech solution to enhance the viewing experience and overcome the stone windowsill obstruction. The introduction of periscopes, a creative solution, will enable various diverse users to fully enjoy the viewing experience. Other amenities such as seating and a washroom will also be added nearby to improve universal accessibility.The Working Group recommends the proposed approach for accessibility improvements in these areas for the Board’s consideration and endorsement.(1115)I hope you carefully reviewed the proposed layouts we presented.[English] On the proposed layouts for lobbies and new lobby support space, as you recall, the board gave direction to the Centre Block project to respect the heritage architecture of the building while modernizing to meet the needs of a working Parliament, and it endorsed an interconnected two-floor lobby and lobby support area.The working group was consulted, as were the whips' offices, including their lobby representatives, to gather requirements and feedback. An on-site visit to the lobbies also facilitated further understanding of the importance of the functioning of the lobbies.The working group has reviewed the proposed layouts. The lobby space has increased and is approximately two-and-a-half times larger than that of the pre-closure Centre Block. The lobbies will continue to have the same entrances off the chamber, with improvements for accessibility. On the chamber level, the primary functions of the whips' and MPs' seating are prioritized, with space for the page desk and supporting amenities, such as technology and water services. Connected by internal stairs in each lobby, a lower floor offers further space and functions to support the work of members in the chamber, including the modern-style PODs that ensure some private work areas.Additional members' amenities are included in close proximity to the chamber at the lower level, such as a coatroom, washrooms, meeting rooms and a larger family room with upgraded features, including electrical requirements as per feedback received during MP consultations.The working group is satisfied with the proposed general layouts of the lobby space and lobby support space and believes that the proposal takes into consideration members' needs for supporting their work in the chamber. We recommend that the proposed general layouts be endorsed, noting that they offer flexibility with free-standing furniture that can support a variety of arrangements in the future.[Translation]The next item is on the multimedia enablement strategy for Centre Block. As a result of the COVID‑19 pandemic response to provisioning of innovative technologies to support Parliament, such as remote interpretation and e-voting, limited proof of concepts were undertaken.In 2021, the Translation Bureau and PSPC, in collaboration with the House of Commons, pursued a limited technical evaluation to determine if secure, encrypted centralized simultaneous interpretation, or CSI, would meet the Canadian parliamentary and global ISO standards for audio and video quality. Based on the successful security test for the Senate and House of Commons, the interpretation strategy warrants further testing to determine the reliability, scaleability, operational impacts and client user experience. The project is leveraging the success of the limited tech evaluation for centralized simultaneous interpretation as a probable solution for the space pressures within Centre Block and the Parliament Welcome Centre. Space pressures to accommodate modern parliamentary functions, universal accessibility, as well as basic building upgrades, required Parliament to prioritize space and investigate alternate approaches to deliver services to support parliamentarians.Given the technical security evaluation success for the House of Commons, designs for Centre Block and the Parliament Welcome Centre were advanced using the concept of centralized interpretation, and not traditional simultaneous interpretation booths.Based on the success of the upcoming proof of concept, including Privy Council Office security validation, CSI is expected to deliver a modern environment, custom designed to meet the needs of parliamentary interpreters.(1120)A centralized facility, as well as backup capabilities located in the Centre Block Underground Services, will be planned and implemented to align with the opening of Centre Block. Parliamentary Protective Services will continue to secure these spaces.The working group supports this approach, as it also offers good potential for efficiencies in terms of business continuity, support and operations, as well as potential cost savings. We recommend that the Board of Internal Economy endorse the centralized approach for simultaneous interpretation for Centre Block and for the project to pursue options for the location within the Precinct.[English] On the proposed circulation strategy, a presentation on design progress was provided to the working group with the aim of explaining the circulation into and within the new parliamentary welcome centre and the rehabilitated Centre Block. The circulation strategy includes visitors, business visitors and parliamentarian routes.Reviewing the plans to understand how the buildings will function is quite complex. While the working group has the opportunity to engage, ask questions and develop a detailed view of this circulation, we believe that the proposed circulation is conducive to the functioning of Parliament with a balance of accessibility and security. We understand that the circulation paths will continue to develop as the design evolves, and we will continue to monitor the progress to ensure that it aligns with parliamentary operations.We are recommending that the proposed circulation strategy be endorsed by the board.[Translation]Now, let’s talk about endorsement of the proposed strategies for heritage rooms within Centre Block.There are 50 high-heritage spaces in Centre Block that require conservation and modernization to support parliamentary operations and base building improvements. The board specified that heritage rooms must be protected and restored to reflect the importance of their history and the role they play in support of Parliament.The Working Group was briefed on the extensive analysis undertaken on the project to understand the original design intent and heritage features of these rooms. Subsequently, this analysis informed the end-state design vision. It will guide design decisions wherever upgrades are required.The strategy for heritage rooms proposes three options for treatment types defined to guide the design of all individual heritage spaces within Centre Block.The first option is preservation and restoration. Construction will restore the original design intent, particularly where it has been eroded or concealed over time by significant alterations. An example of this design preservation strategy is the House of Commons railway committee room.The second option is sensitive reinterpretation. It reveals and respects the original design intent but balances it with the contemporary role of the room or space and occupant expectations. The parliamentary dining room is an example of the design preservation strategy.The third option is the contemporary option. It is reserved for spaces less sensitive to change. It aims to create a legible but subtle and respectful distinction between what is historical and what is new through the design of contemporary elements and features. An example of this design preservation strategy is a non-pavilion parliamentary office.With this strategy approval, the project team can start to apply the concept to individual heritage rooms and develop the design. The team proposes bringing forward each individual room with a design recommendation developed by heritage experts for review and endorsement, thus ensuring it meets the expectations specified by the Board of Internal Economy.The working group recommends endorsing the high-level proposed strategy for the treatment of heritage rooms in Centre Block. We will update the Board of Internal Economy with the actual proposed design for individual rooms as they are developed.(1125)[English]On the proposed indigenous cultural practices room, at the last LTVP update that I provided for the board, you asked that the working group reconsider the use and name of the dedicated shared space on the fourth floor of the central courtyard infill that would be constructed with appropriate systems to accommodate events that would require the use of smoke. The board did give approval for the building design to progress in support of such a room, but felt further discussion was required on its name and future use.This week I received a request from a member of the LTVP to revisit a few points on our decision. I will bring this back as soon as possible. I know we're booked for the next few meetings. We will bring that back at the next one.[Translation]In conclusion, before we go in camera for the last item, I would like to mention that the working group was very engaged in a detailed review of issues and proposed designs for Centre Block and the new Parliament Welcome Centre. We remain confident that parliamentarians’ requirements are taken into consideration. We hope to be able to update the board on the design through the spring and as work progresses.I am happy to take your questions along with my two friends, Ms. Jennifer Garrett and Ms. Susan Kulba, whom I should have introduced at the beginning of my presentation, so that we may confirm the proposed endorsements. We will then have a discussion in camera.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1125)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. d’Entremont, for your very complete presentation.Dear members, do you have questions to ask or comments to make before moving on to the in camera portion of the meeting?Mr. Scheer, you have the floor.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (House leader of the official opposition): (1125)[English] Thanks very much.I just have a question on the “strategies for heritage rooms within Centre Block”. I think it's on page 27 of the deck. Under “Sensitive Reinterpretation”, it says, “Revealing and respecting the original design intent but balancing this with contemporary role of room or space and occupant expectations.” I just want to clarify that some of that beautiful historic art and architecture in some of the larger committee rooms I'm thinking of—the reading room and the railway room—are not what you're talking about.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1125)[Translation]Could you speak more slowly, please?AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1130)[Translation]Okay.[English]In those historic rooms, like the reading room and the railway room—the larger committee rooms—there are fantastic pieces of art, architecture and heraldic devices carved into stone. You're talking about balancing with the contemporary role of the room, but when we planned the move, the board at the time was very insistent that all of that historic art and architecture would remain, because there's a tendency with architects and artists to update things with some awful modernist stuff. I'd hate to think that we're going to lose any of those aspects of this generational heritage we have and are all looking forward to moving back into. I'd hate to arrive and then suddenly see that a modern lens has been added to some of the art or to some of the devices in and around the building. I just want some assurance that this is not what we're talking about when we're talking about updating things to be more contemporary. I'm hoping it means just accommodating some of the modern technology, some of the needs of MPs, who now carry Surface Pros and filming devices. Perhaps you could just enlighten me a little bit on that point.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1130)[English]I'll start off with. When it comes to those historical items, there are a number of these rooms that are historic in their nature. Looking back at the design of those rooms, I use the railway room for the example. Which part of that design do we look at, the original design or the updates that happened over time? We have to look back at what the original intent or design of those rooms would have been. We're trying to preserve everything we possibly can. I'll get Jennifer to answer more specifically, but what is historic will stay historic, and what is sensitive we will make sure stays as sensitive as possible, knowing that there's a modern...not a modern, but a more appropriate use of some of these items, and then the contemporary is kind of the new stuff that will happen—offices, and that redevelopment as it proceeds. Jennifer, maybe you can take it on.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleJenniferGarrettJenniferGarrettJennifer-GarrettInterventionMs. Jennifer Garrett (Director General, Public Services and Procurement Canada): (1130)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question. I'm Jennifer Garrett, with Public Services and Procurement Canada. I'm the new acting assistant deputy minister accountable for the work we're doing on the long-term vision and plan for the precinct. Let me start by saying that I want to assure you in terms of your concern that absolutely our intent is to protect the heritage. We've done extensive studies of the heritage of the building and we want to respect it, but we understand the direction that came from the board on that matter and we're taking that and applying it to all of the Pearson special rooms, and in fact the entire building. When those integrated design concepts for those rooms are ready to come forward, you'll be able to see them at some point in this forum and see how that heritage architecture is being maintained and how those modernizations are being delicately put into the building. At this point in time, I think we're in a really good position in protecting and respecting the heritage nature of the building. The chambers and the committee rooms will largely return to looking very much the same as they did before, as an example. What we are trying to do, though, is make sure that as Parliament needs to be modernized and as modernizations need to happen to support the working building, we are doing those modernizations in a delicate fashion. This board will see those modernizations as they come forward room by room as architectural concepts, and you'll get your chance to give us feedback before the design is finalized. We are taking special care to make sure that those delicate interventions are being done. I would just say one final thing, which is that one of the most fascinating aspects of the project to date is having the opportunity to see how the building has evolved with time. In fact, there is something that we call “unsympathetic change” in the heritage world. These are beautiful heritage features that might have been original to the building but have been covered up with paint or other plaster aspects over time. We've uncovered those, and as we bring those rooms forward, you'll see what we've discovered and how we propose to actually reintegrate some original features back into the building.Hopefully that answers the question.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectPublic Services and Procurement CanadaChrisd'EntremontWest NovaAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1130)[English]Thank you very much.JenniferGarrettGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1130)[Translation]Mr. MacKinnon has the floor, followed by Mr. Julian.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1130)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank Mr. d’Entremont not only for his very complete presentation, but also for chairing the working group so masterfully. Collaboration is fully entrenched in this group. I also note that, for the very first time, Ms. Garrett is here with us. She took on a new role recently. We congratulate her for it. There is also Ms. Kulba, who always answers the call of duty and provides us with all the required information. I want to thank them. This is a monumental project requiring many decisions. I would say we’ve come to a stage where many decisions must be made quickly.I want to remind all parliamentarians, those on the Board of Internal Economy, those in the working group and those elsewhere, that tardy decisions are very expensive. We want to be consulted and we are, but we have to let people move the work forward if we want to go back to Centre Block—I think that’s what we all want—at the lowest possible cost.I want to remind all my colleagues of the need to keep paying attention to these decisions and respond promptly when our approval is requested.On that point, I told Mr. d’Entremont, as we told the working group, that we agree on all the proposals before us today. We are really looking forward to the final product.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1135)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.I don’t think there are any comments to make on that.Mr. Julian has the floor, followed by Mrs. DeBellefeuille.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1135)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you very much, Mr. d'Entremont, Madam Garrett, Madam Kulba. I appreciate the presentation and am very supportive of the direction that's being taken. I want to come back to Mr. Scheer's comments because I found them very apt on the issue of heritage rooms in the Centre Block. There are unbelievably incredible rooms within the Centre Block that need to be preserved. What I hear you saying, Ms. Garrett, is the unsympathetic changes that we've seen over time would be removed. Is it fair to say that what we are looking for is more the type of approach that was taken with the Library of Parliament? That was a magnificent renovation that renewed that beautiful building and made it something that is quite distinct and singular in Canadian architecture. Is that the direction that we can expect in terms of these heritage rooms, something like what we've seen emerge from the Library of Parliament renovation?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerJenniferGarrettJenniferGarrettJennifer-GarrettInterventionMs. Jennifer Garrett: (1135)[English]I can confirm that this is the general intent that we'd like to take and that we are taking on this program.I'll give you a bit of a sense of the kinds of things that you might look to see in terms of what I hope would be positive improvements to the heritage fabric of the building.As an example, in your packages you saw photos of the heritage committee rooms pre-closure. At some point, there were very large lights that were incorporated into those heritage rooms, probably with great intent, but under today's lens, they aren't exactly in alignment with the original heritage intent of the building. One of the things we're working on with the House of Commons and that we will bring back is an appropriate lighting strategy for those heritage rooms.To give another example, in the Prime Minister's office, there was a beautiful compass rose that had been covered over when new lighting was put in place in the 1980s. In our heritage investigations early on, we uncovered that compass rose, and we would like to reinstate that beautiful sculptural element.There are many examples of beautiful painting schemes that have been painted over, and people may not even be aware that they existed and are original to the building. We're looking at those and considering how we might bring that intent back when we bring the rooms back.All of those things will be made fully transparent to the working group and to the board for consideration when we come back with those heritage rooms.That's just to give you a sense of it. Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1135)[English]Thank you.JenniferGarrettGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1135)[English]Next we have Madame DeBellefeuille and Mr. Gerretsen.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1135)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I would also like to thank the entire team.Each party participates in the working group. I know that the meetings are important. On our side, Mr. Louis Plamondon, the dean of the House, takes part in the working group. We make a point of talking to each other before and after every meeting to avoid any disconnect and make sure that we remain fully aware of the situation.I want to tell you that you’ve done a thorough job and I appreciate the fact that you testified before the Board of Internal Economy. We can talk with you and you listen to our requests. I see, as I read the recommendations, that the group has been listening. I agree with the government leader’s proposal to approve all your recommendations today, so that the work can proceed and the rest can be organized as quickly as possible, at the lowest possible cost.I extend my congratulations to you. I know it involves a lot of meetings, planning and coordination. It is very demanding, because we expect you to be thorough. I offer you my congratulations.If there is consensus, we can approve all your recommendations.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1140)[Translation]I am happy about what I heard.Mr. Gerretson, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen (Deputy House leader of the government): (1140)[English]Perhaps I'll save it for the LTVP committee. GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1140)[Translation]Very good.Dear colleagues, as Mrs. DeBellefeuille suggested, does the committee consent to greenlighting the proposals put forward by Mr. d’Entremont?I see you nodding.We will now take a break before resuming in camera to discuss certain matters.The meeting is suspended.[Proceedings continue in camera.](1140)(1230)[Public proceedings resume.]Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1230)[English] Colleagues, we're back in public. Thank you very much for your co-operation.We are now at item number 5, the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians.I will turn the floor over to the president of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians, Matt DeCourcey. He is accompanied by a former Manitoba member of Parliament, Dorothy Dobbie. It's a pleasure to see you again.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1230)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair and Mr. Janse.Committee members, thank you for inviting me to meet with you for the third time.The Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians is submitting a budget request that will help us better reflect the mandate that we received from Parliament in 1996 through the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians Act.[English]Thanks for having us back.I'm really pleased to be joined today by my immediate predecessor as president of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians, Ms. Dorothy Dobbie. In just a moment, Dorothy can talk to you a little bit more about her vast experience and time as a parliamentarian and also about some of the trajectory of our association.I don't want to take much time. You've heard from me and my colleague Léo Duguay numerous times. When we were here in November, we heard clearly from folks that there's broad agreement on the importance of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians. Our mandate is vital to the success of this institution; to, hopefully, the health and well-being of those who have served in office; and to the vitality of democracy across the country.We heard your guidance and advice to narrow the focus of the request that we are making. We come back to you today with a revised proposal that is approximately 40% of our original ask. It focuses on the human resources capacity that we need to undertake the important work of supporting the transition in and out of office of parliamentarians and former parliamentarians, as well as the mental health supports that go along with that, and to continue to build on the important democracy support work that we do in the country.We are here today to answer any outstanding questions that you may still have. We're hoping that we can leave today with some direction to work with the administration of the House of Commons to finalize our plans for the upcoming fiscal year so that we know what we are working with as we continue to undertake our mandate.[Translation]Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here.I'll now give the floor to Ms. Dobbie.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerDorothyDobbieDorothyDobbieDorothy-DobbieInterventionMs. Dorothy Dobbie (Past President, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians): (1230)[English] Thank you very much.I want to mention, first of all, that you can see that I'm a little bit older than Matt. I'm considerably older than Matt. That's one thing that's adding to the need to make some changes to the way that the association is run. It is really important to have older people like me with lots of experience and background, but it's also important to have youth leading our organization, because there are another 30 years to come that will require some experience. People like Matt are going to be the ones leading the way in the future.Since 1993, when the Tories got kicked out so unceremoniously that there were only two people left, the Tories have basically been the backbone of the association. I see that in the future for the Liberal members who will perhaps be younger and be ready to take on that role.When you're young and you have a young family, as Matt does, you don't have the time to do the things that Leo, Andy and I and fellows in the past have had to do to take on the responsibilities of running the association. The association is very important to the future of democracy in Canada. It's really important that we have an opportunity to teach young people about how Parliament works, because they just don't know. I don't know if you've been reading the information recently about that. Even my adult children don't really understand how Parliament works. Some of them don't know the difference, in many cases, between the federal government and the provincial government. Don't ask them about municipal politics, because that's really confusing for them.What we do as former parliamentarians, in terms of letting people understand how this institution works and how parliamentary democracy works worldwide, is a really important function of what we have in mind. Even more important is the way that we can support new members coming into the House of Commons who don't really know what to expect, and then really support the folks who leave. You don't have to leave involuntarily to go through what I call “falling off the cliff”. Just very recently, a former member who left voluntarily came to me. I thought she wanted to talk about something that had to do with provincial matters. She wanted to talk to me about what was happening to her as a voluntary, very high-profile member of Parliament and how she was being rejected by the community. That's what happens, folks. It seems really weird, but when I left I was very lucky to have a former Liberal minister come and ask me for lunch. She told me, “Dorothy, it's going to take a decade to get rehabilitated.” I thought she was joking, but I did listen to her, and it really helped me to understand what I was coming up against, because she was someone I had really admired when she was in Parliament. I discovered that she was right. It did take a decade to become accepted into the community and to be able to make a difference. Part of the difference was being asked to come back and join the association of former members, which was formed about three years after I left Parliament. They just reached out and asked, “Whatever happened to Dorothy Dobbie?” Well, that was all I needed to be back, saying that I'm here and I'm willing to serve. I think that if you're born into a life of service to the public, it sticks with you. It's in your heart. It stays with you. When you finally leave, being rejected for that service is kind of difficult, but to be able to come and meet with colleagues you formerly worked with and have an opportunity to still make a difference is something I think is just endemic to who we are as Parliamentarians.I am very glad that we have Matt to run things in the future and to carry on the traditions of the association, but he needs the resources to be able to do the job that we were mandated to do in the very beginning. You've all heard what those mandates were. They are an act of Parliament. I guess the only thing I can say is that it's a mandate, and we haven't been able to completely fulfill that mandate.I hope you that you will consider our request. We're willing to make compromises and to have discussions, but we really want to move this agenda forward and make sure that the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians is here for the future for any of you who might need our help when that day comes.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingMattDeCourceyGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1235)[English]Thank you very much.Are there any questions or comments from colleagues around the table?Go ahead, Ms. Sahota.DorothyDobbieRubySahotaHon.Brampton North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88698RubySahotaHon.Ruby-SahotaBrampton NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SahotaRuby_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Ruby Sahota (Chief Government Whip): (1235)[English] Thank you for coming here today. First of all, thank you for coming back with a more concise ask. It's been whittled down somewhat as well. Can you explain to me how you made these choices and why these specific categories will help you accomplish the work that you're doing, and maybe even reference the work you propose to do in the coming years?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1235)[English]Thanks very much.The revised proposal is a consequence of the advice that we received from folks at this table. In the letter that heads that proposal, you'll see that we have every intention to continue the full objectives that we set forth in our original proposal, but we understand, as former politicians, that there are political realities this board has to deal with. We're willing to start by ensuring that we have the human resources in place to help us fully engage the potential roster of 1,000 former parliamentarians in the mentorship and transition supports—which Dorothy spoke about eloquently—and in the outreach to young people, primarily, across the country to support democracy-building initiatives that we think are so vital at this time in the country. Dorothy referenced an Abacus poll that came out just a little over a week ago. It talked about the severe dearth in civics education that exists across the country and the consequence that has on Canadians' ability to engage in tough conversations.We're at a point in this country's history where we need people who can engage in tough conversations. We believe—as experienced former parliamentarians who understand not just the institution but politics, and the fact that compromise and learning different perspectives are important parts of the practice of politics and getting things done in this country—that we have something to impart to young Canadians. That can be beneficial in the long term for the country, but we need an office staffed with people who can do the work of engaging our membership from coast to coast to coast. We're looking for an executive-level decision-maker who can be the leader in the office, undertake the umbrella of all of our activities and also engage in fundraising activities that would complement any public funds to support our organization. We need a full-time administrative support person and lead who can ensure that any outreach, any engagement and any back-end supports for the office are fully considered. We need logistics and communications to support fulfilling our mandate, and we need someone to lead this mentorship and transition program, which, if I recall—and I've read through the Hansard of our last gathering—seemed to garner the most consensus from folks at this table.We're willing to practise the art of compromise right now, should there be any outstanding questions, to at least give us a start in this next fiscal year to launch our broad agenda, which we believe fits squarely into the mandate given to us by a unanimous act of Parliament.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingRubySahotaHon.Brampton NorthGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1240)[English]Thank you.Go ahead, Mr. Gerretsen.MattDeCourceyMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1240)[English]Thank you for coming and presenting. I'm just curious about how you plan to keep Parliament and this board informed of your progress. How do you quantify the value for the money?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1240)[English]If given direction from this board to move ahead with this funding proposal, we would be more than willing to work with the administrative team to set up a results framework and to come back and report on our progress at whatever interval this board deems appropriate, whether it is six months, annually or biannually. We feel that if given the start, we can demonstrate an increased engagement in membership, in activities that support the mental well-being of outgoing members and better preparation for incoming members, and help tackle some of those lagging civics education numbers as well. I mean, we have a whole breadth of activities already set up for this year. We are stretched thin beyond our means to make good on all of them, but we have regional meetings that will engage our members in Atlantic Canada. [Translation]In Quebec, we're carrying out an activity that will give us a chance to work with our American counterparts.[English] We have intentions to deepen our relationships with democracy-building civics organizations like Samara Centre for Democracy, like Democracy Engagement Exchange, like Apathy is Boring, like Nominee—all of those organizations that are doing their best to fill the apparent need that exists in the country.We're willing to have a clear results framework set up—we'll take your direction on that—and we'd be happy to come back to report on where we are whenever asked.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1240)[Translation]Mr. Julian, you have the floor.MattDeCourceyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1240)[English]Thank you very much.Thank you for your submission.I have two questions.First, you speak in your letter about more than 1,000 former members of Parliament. Do you have a sense of what percentage of former members of Parliament are actually active members of the organization and to what extent this funding might make a difference?Second, what contacts do you have with other groups of national representatives worldwide—parliamentarians from other countries, former members of the U.S. Congress, of the French National Assembly, of the U.K. Parliament? How are they organized? To what extent do we see those organizations receiving funding to ensure that there are linkages and that former parliamentarians are able to be involved in initiatives and projects?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1245)[English]Today we have approximately 200 of those former members registered as members of the association. That number is much less than the membership number prior to COVID, which was in the 400 to 450 range. We have had periods of time when we've been able to engage a full-time executive director and more resources that have very much contributed to the increased membership numbers in previous years. We think that with the staff in the office to engage fully in the outreach, we can double our numbers and increase beyond that 400 range that we've seen previously.Dorothy can speak a little bit more about the relationship with other organizations, but I mentioned briefly that within Canada we have great ongoing collaborations with former members of the Ontario provincial Parliament.[Translation]We're currently planning an activity with our counterparts in Quebec. It may take place in May.[English]We have a very strong relationship with our colleagues in the U.S. We are hoping to send a delegation to their annual general meeting this June in Austin, and we are expecting to invite them to speak to us about the state of democracy in this election year in the U.S. at our annual general meeting in June.Dorothy, you've spent time engaging with our colleagues in the European Union. Perhaps you can speak a little bit more about that collaboration.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyDorothyDobbieDorothyDobbieDorothy-DobbieInterventionMs. Dorothy Dobbie: (1245)[English]I'd like to also add, first of all, that when you say that we're thinking about sending a delegation to Austin, you need to know that we, as individuals, pay our own way, and we also carry the costs of taking a staffer with us. We pay them a per diem. We pay for their travel, we pay for their accommodations, and we pay for their meals. These are not junkets. These are serious people taking on serious tasks to further the cause of democracy and also international relationships. Yes, we do have a very solid relationship with the European Parliament. It usually sends somebody to our annual meeting. We don't always send someone there because it's very expensive, but in most cases, we usually find a member who is willing to go at his own cost.We also have a very strong relationship with the Americans, with former U.S. congressmen. As I think you heard in the last intervention, both of those organizations are very well supported. They are supported a little differently from the way we would do it, but they do have very substantial support from their governments or through government connections, one way or another. That's very appropriate, because as volunteers, even though we've been doing it since 1996, we just don't have the energy anymore. There's just not the interest in fundraising that there was with people from whom we actually got our funding. I think you know that a few of our members, including an NDP member, a Liberal member and a Tory member, over the 30 years, have taken on the responsibility of funding this organization. I'm getting off track, but the other organizations are funded separately. I think it's time for us to do the same.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingMattDeCourceyGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1245)[English] I'm going to cut it off there.Are there any other questions or comments from members?Seeing none, is there a consensus going forward?Go ahead, Mr. Scheer.DorothyDobbieAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1245)[English]I appreciate the presentation and the sincerity with which both of you approach the organization, and, as we've heard over the course of a couple of different presentations, the interesting work that you do. Given the current climate that we're in when we're certainly focused on finding areas where we can reduce expenditures or hold the line on expenditures, at this point in time this isn't something that we can support.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1250)[English]Okay.[Translation] Ms. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1250)[Translation]I have a quick question for you, Mr. DeCourcey.Are your services and programs available to a unilingual francophone former parliamentarian? Can a unilingual francophone access your services and programs? I'm asking out of curiosity. I have a feeling that everything is done in English.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingFrancophonesTranslation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1250)[Translation]Francophone former parliamentarians can certainly access services in French. We face the same issues as you, the current parliamentarians, when it comes to simultaneous interpretation. We try to have it at every board meeting. We want to provide it at our annual general meeting and at our regional meetings. I hope that we'll have it here, in June. However, we have the same issue as the committees here on Parliament Hill. Is it available? Do people have access to the technology to ensure that the service is provided safely? I hope that, as a member organization of this parliamentary ecosystem, we'll have access to this interpretation. Some members of our board of directors are former parliamentarians from Quebec. I'm a New Brunswicker. My first language is English, but I'm bilingual. We're doing our best to ensure that all our activities are bilingual, like Canada.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingFrancophonesTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1250)[English]Be very brief, please, Mr. Gerretsen, because I have to ask if there's consensus.MattDeCourceyMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1250)[English]I just want to try one thing. I understand that the Conservatives have no interest in this matter. I think it's unfortunate that we've asked you now to come back. Even the Conservatives last time said to please go away and come back, and you keep doing that, and yet you seem to have been met with a hard no.Mr. DeCourcey and Ms. Dobbie, I believe that during your comments, you both indicated that you were willing to make some further concessions. I see you nodding. I guess my question is to Mr. Scheer. Is the position of the Conservatives absolutely no, or do you want to work with Mr. DeCourcey and Ms. Dobbie to find a solution? Are we just at a hard no? It's just so I know where we're at in terms of having the discussion.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1250)[English]I think at this point in time, I can take that back to Kerry-Lynne. She's not here today. We can have a further conversation. We had Daryl Kramp, a former colleague, pass away, so that's where my colleague is today.We know that with the government increasing spending, driving up inflation and keeping interest rates high, we have to find areas where we can control that spending and where we can exert our influence as the opposition, and that's the situation we find ourselves in today. The $600,000 might not mean a lot to my colleague Mr. Gerretsen, but it would be $600,000 more that taxpayers would have to pay and $600,000 more of additional spending during an inflationary cycle.That's where we're at in the Conservative Party.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1250)[English]I'm not seeing consensus at this time.I'd like to thank Mr. DeCourcey and Madam Dobbie for their presentation and for the work that they put in on this important initiative.Let us move on to item number 6. I would invite Paul St-George and his team to come up to the table for what I hope will be a quick discussion. Colleagues, we have two more items. While they're coming to the table, there is one thing I forgot to do. Where are my manners? We would all like to welcome Mona Fortier to the Board of Internal Economy. Welcome aboard, Madame Fortier. I see that you have adapted yourself very quickly to the affairs of this committee.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleMonaFortierHon.Ottawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96356MonaFortierHon.Mona-FortierOttawa—VanierLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortierMona_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mona Fortier (Deputy government whip): (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm pleased to have this opportunity to speak with you and my colleagues.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1255)[English] I'll turn the microphone over to Mr. St George. MonaFortierHon.Ottawa—VanierPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm here to present the quarterly financial report for the third quarter of 2023‑2024, unaudited. I attest to the accuracy and reliability of the information in this report.As of December 31, 2023, the House's cumulative net operating costs totalled $525.2 million, an increase of $41.2 million over the same quarter last fiscal year.[English]The variance over the prior year mainly reflects previous submissions approved by the board, as detailed in the enclosed report. As of December 31, the House was operating within its approved authorities, demonstrating strong financial stewardship.I welcome any questions the board may have.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Third Quarter of 2019-2020GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1255)[Translation]Does anyone have a question or comment? It doesn't look like it.Does the Board of Internal Economy consent to the adoption of the report?Mr. Scheer, you have the floor.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Third Quarter of 2019-2020PaulSt GeorgeAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1255)[English]No, I'm sorry. That's fine, yes.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Third Quarter of 2019-2020GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1255)[Translation]Does the Board of Internal Economy consent to the adoption of the report? It looks like it.Thank you.[English]Thank you very much, Mr. St George, for keeping within the mandate that was approved by the board for the financial expenditures of the House. Congratulations.Now we have Mr. MacKinnon on another issue.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Third Quarter of 2019-2020AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1255)[English]I'm just wondering if, with everyone's indulgence, we could revert back to item 2. I have a procedural question. Is that okay?There was the issue raised, I believe, by the ethics and access to information committee about travel points and possibly amending the conflict of interest code. I'm just wondering when that might come up for our consideration.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse (Deputy Clerk, Procedure, House of Commons): (1255)[English] We're currently working on a briefing note for the board members. It could be as soon as the next meeting, although I think that meeting is going to largely be on security. Obviously we would follow the direction of the committee in terms of where it should fit in the order of priorities.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1255)[English]I just don't want to lose sight of that issue. EricJanseGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1255)[English]Mr. Julian is next. StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1255)[Translation]When will the next meeting be held?GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1255)[Translation]I think that it's scheduled for March 15.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1255)[Translation]I was wondering—EricJanseGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1255)[Translation]Mr. Julian, it's actually scheduled for March 21.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1255)[Translation]In my opinion, the security issue is pressing. The same applies to the issue raised by the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics concerning the recommendation to change the system for sponsored travel. I think that it would be a good idea to hold another Board of Internal Economy meeting in two weeks. That would be the Thursday of the week after the break. Next week, we'll be in our respective constituencies.I think that we need to focus on these issues next week. If we don't finish studying these two issues now, we'll do so in April. That's the next time that we meet in Ottawa. I believe that the best approach would be to have the opportunity to hold two meetings in a row, the first in two weeks and the second in five weeks.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Julian.If the board agrees, we can certainly schedule a meeting during these weeks.Ms. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1255)[Translation]I agree with the proposals made by Mr. MacKinnon and Mr. Julian. I think that some important issues must be discussed. I don't see a problem with holding this discussion when we return from the break and on March 21. That seems reasonable.We haven't finished discussing the agenda today. For example, we haven't discussed item 7. I don't want to put this item off until April. I'm sure that everyone is anxious to put this issue behind us. If we decide to add a meeting when we come back from the break, we could discuss the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, along with item 7. That way, the topic of the March 21 meeting would be the security issue.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1300)[English] We'll make sure to get back to you on that matter. [Translation]There seems to be some disagreement. I gather from Mr. Julian's comments that security is a pressing issue.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1300)[Translation]If you want to do the opposite, I have no problem with that.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1300)[Translation]I agree with Ms. DeBellefeuille.Sometimes, we can address all the items on the agenda quickly, and other times it takes longer. If we meet for two hours in two weeks, we may have a chance to discuss the security issue; the issue raised by the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics; and item 7, which we haven't covered today.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1300)[Translation]I want to say that we're working very hard on a submission on security, but it won't be ready in two weeks. It will certainly be ready for March 21, but not in two weeks.As Mrs. DeBellefeuille suggested, it may be better to wait until later to discuss the issue raised by the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics; item 7; and the other scheduled items. That way, the March 21 meeting can be devoted to the security issue.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1300)[Translation]Colleagues, I know that it's 1 p.m. If you want to, you can discuss item 7. I have to leave, as planned. It depends on your availability. I've made a commitment.Would you prefer to discuss it at the next meeting?EricJanseStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1300)[Translation]Perhaps we could address item 1 to make things easier.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1300)[Translation]Okay.[English]Mr. Gerretsen, the final word goes to you.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1300)[English]This is an issue I want to raise. I've had discussions with Mr. Aubé about it and I think the board should give consideration to the matter, which is the fact that more and more members of Parliament are driving electric vehicles and using the facilities on the Hill to charge them. I see two issues that I think should be considered and brought forward to the board. One is with respect to the fact that members of Parliament are allowed to use those charging facilities free of charge—and, quite frankly, staff, for that matter—whereas if we were to use those anywhere else, we would have to pay for those facilities, so should there be consideration as to whether or not those facilities should be pay per use? Then the other issue relates to the mileage calculations. I had an interesting scenario a couple of summers ago, trying to have a discussion with the financial portal folks about how to properly claim mileage when I stop to charge a vehicle as opposed to filling it up with gas. I was not able to get a definitive answer as to how I should proceed, and it was basically just put into my hands that, “Well, you could do this in a couple of different ways, but it's really up to you to do it.” We're seeing a growth in the number of MPs and staff using electric vehicles. I think we need to at least give some consideration as to whether or not there should be a different calculation per kilometre based on electric vehicles. Perhaps the result that comes back is, “No. What is current is fair.” However, I think consideration should at least be given to it, so I would ask that at some point in the future we have a report and perhaps a discussion on that topic.Charging stationsElectric vehiclesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1300)[English]It is noted, and we'll bring that back for a future discussion.Thank you very much, colleagues.I declare the meeting adjourned.MarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0251st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, December 7, 2023Le jeudi 7 décembre 2023Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTDecember 7, 2023CommitteeNUMBER 025NUMBER 025NUMÉRO 025025071220232023/12/07 11:05:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144GregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1100)[Translation]Good morning.Welcome to meeting number 25 of the Board of Internal Economy.[English]We have a good schedule today, so let's move through it.The first thing is the minutes from previous meetings.[Translation]Are there any questions about that?Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1100)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I read the minutes carefully and I am satisfied with them. I do have a comment, but I'm not sure what it falls under.You will recall the discussion we had on the renovations to Centre Block at our last meeting. We had four decisions to make, one of which was to designate a room for Qulliq lighting and smudging ceremonies. On that point, we decided to compromise and not decide on the final function of this room created in honour of indigenous peoples.So, shortly after our meeting on November 26, I was surprised to receive an email from the Centre Block rehabilitation working group describing the Board of Internal Economy's decision by talking about an inclusive space devoted to ceremonial cultural practices, but the word “indigenous” was nowhere to be seen.I believe that the information provided to the House administration as a whole does not reflect the decision of the Board of Internal Economy. I've informed the House administration, but I'd like you to decide what we're going to do about it, Mr. Chair. Are we going to ask for a correction, given the decision we made at the last meeting?I don't know if all the members of the Board of Internal Economy have seen this mailing. I received it on November 26 at 8:32 a.m. from my chief of staff, but the original letter was sent on Thursday, November 23 at 3:58 p.m.I'd like to know what follow‑up you plan to do. The minutes clearly reflect what was said and I'm satisfied with that, but there is follow‑up to be done on this document.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Thank you very much for raising that point, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.Mr. Aubé has a short answer for you.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Acting Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1105)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mrs. DeBellefeuille, after the minutes of the previous meeting are approved today, we will update the document and send a correction.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Mr. MacKinnon.StéphanAubéStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Chief Government Whip): (1105)[Translation]I'd like to speak to another part of the minutes, Mr. Chair.With respect to the appointment of external auditors, yes, the minutes do reflect our approval to engage KPMG. However, I thought there was consensus that this would be the auditor's final mandate, and I feel the minutes should reflect that.Audits and auditorsKPMGGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]You're right, Mr. MacKinnon. We will make sure that we make the necessary changes.Are there any further questions on the minutes of the previous meeting?(Motion agreed to)Audits and auditorsKPMGStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Let's now move on to the second item on the agenda, which is business arising from previous meetings. Actually, I think we just discussed it.We will move to the third item on the agenda, then, which is the quarterly financial report for the second quarter of 2023‑24.I'm going to ask Paul St George and José Fernandez to speak briefly on this.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Second Quarter of 2023-2024GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1105)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I am presenting the unaudited quarterly financial report for the second quarter of 2023‑24.I attest to the accuracy and reliability of the information therein.As of September 30, 2023, the cumulative net operating costs of the House were $341.4 million. This represents an increase of $22 million over the same quarter of the previous fiscal year.[English]The $22-million variance reflects inflation as well as initiatives, salaries and other adjustments approved by the board in 2023-24.As of September 30, the House was operating within its approved authorities. I welcome any questions the board may have.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Second Quarter of 2023-2024GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Thank you.Are there any questions or comments?I see none.(Motion agreed to)Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Second Quarter of 2023-2024PaulSt GeorgeGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[English]Thank you, Mr. St George.You're on to the next matter, which is regarding the proposed 2024 main estimates.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1105)[Translation]I am now presenting, for approval, the proposed main estimates for the House of Commons for 2024‑25.It should be noted that these estimates reflect initiatives and methodology approved by the Board of Internal Economy, legislation, and adjustments prescribed by the Treasury Board.The House of Commons must prepare its estimates and forward them to the Treasury Board for tabling with the main estimates of the Government of Canada. It was agreed that the budget would be presented to the Treasury Board no later than December 14, 2023.The budget is $623.6 million. This represents an increase of $26.5 million over the 2023‑24 main estimates, an increase of 2.4% before salary adjustments for previous years.The table breaks down into four main categories of budget items.In the first category, the Board of Internal Economy has approved initiatives totalling $3.9 million. These initiatives are listed in lines 1a to 1c. For example, $3.6 million in funding was approved for the lifecycle management initiative, which was presented to the Board of Internal Economy in November. You'll find that in line 1a.The second category, which is inflation, represents an overall adjustment of $10.8 million.(1110)[English]As shown in 2a., in accordance with board-approved methodology, annual adjustments to the office budgets of members and House officers, the constituency office budget and the travel expenses account have been made based on the adjusted consumer price index.In terms of items 2b. and c., they respectively pertain to the adjustments to the 2023 members' sessional allowance and the 2024-25 salary increases for certain House administration employees.The final category concerns retroactive salary increases for House administration employees in the amount of $11.7 million. As annually reported in the audited financial statements, services received without charge in the amount of $107 million are included for reporting purposes only, and this is to provide transparency on the cost of doing business. This amount does not impact the House appropriation and will not be included to the Treasury Board, but will be included in future quarterly and annual reporting. Services received without charge mainly include accommodation expenses paid by Public Services and Procurement Canada.The administration recommends that the board approve the 2024-25 main estimates in the amount of $623.6 million to be submitted to Treasury Board, and that the board take note of services received without charge in the amount of $107 million.This concludes my presentation. I welcome any questions you may have.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[English]Mr. Scheer.PaulSt GeorgeAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1110)[English] Thanks very much.Could you help with the comparison between last year and this year? Unless I read this wrong—and please correct me if I did—last year's budget referred to the number of employees, and I understand that this year's presentation refers to the number of full-time equivalents. I know that's obviously not the same thing.I was just wondering if you could you provide more of an apples-to-apples number of employees versus the number of employees or number of FTEs versus the number of FTEs? If you don't have that at your fingertips, perhaps you can provide that to the board at a later time.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1110)[English]When we look back at 2023, to compare apples to apples, the FTEs in the last year were 1,838 and the FTEs this year are 1,860, which reflects an increase of 37. That increase is mainly attributable to the initiative or the submission that was included in the budget, 35 of which are within the DSRP, and the remaining two, I believe, are adjustments that were made, again because of other submissions.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1110)[English] When was the last time the House administration conducted a program review or an expenditure review?We've been in the middle of a crisis for the last couple of years with inflation. There's more and more evidence that government spending and borrowing add to that inflation and cause that inflation. Economy can begin at home. I'm wondering when the last time was that the administration took out the calculators and pencils and did an in-depth review of where the administration spends money.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025PaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1110)[English]It has been several years since we performed a complete operational review. We are in that process again, so finance with administration, as well as service heads. We're currently looking at the cost structure of the organization. In the next quarter of next year, we'll be identifying opportunities.I ask that you also take note that we never include in our mains the inflation on non-salary goods. We absorb those through mitigation strategies and initiatives annually, either through our process improvement team or through those initiatives that we identify within the submission.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1110)[English]Would you consider that a formal expenditure review process?Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025PaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1110)[English]Absolutely. Yes.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1110)[English]When do you expect that to begin?Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025PaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1110)[English]It would be the first quarter of 2024.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1110)[English]Thank you.PaulSt GeorgeGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[English]Minister Gould.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1110)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.First of all, I want to say how exceptional the services are that the Parliament of Canada provides to us as members of Parliament. I think it's something that all Canadians can be really proud of. This place runs incredibly smoothly, operates at an extremely high level and, I think, serves Canadians and our democracy extremely well.I do not have any questions with regard to the main estimates, because, having been here for eight years, I really appreciate how much support you provide to members of Parliament who are here on behalf of Canadians to serve them every day, and I fully support the proposal.Thank you.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1115)[Translation]Are there any other questions or comments?[English]I see none.Thank you very much, Mr. St George.I'm assuming, seeing the nodding of heads around the table, that there are no objections to adopting this.(Motion agreed to)Hon. Greg Fergus: Great. Thank you.Number five is the interim budget for the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying. I'm going to ask Mr. Lemoine to lead us here today.Government expendituresMain estimates 2024-2025KarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonScottLemoineScottLemoineScott-LemoineInterventionMr. Scott Lemoine (Principal Clerk, Committees, House of Commons): (1115)[English] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.The submission to the board is for the approval of an interim budget for the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying.The House and the Senate both adopted orders in October this year to reappoint the special joint committee in accordance with recommendation 13 that appeared in the second report of the special joint committee, which was in existence earlier this year.Special joint committees do not automatically receive funding. They are funded by the Board of Internal Economy, not through the global envelope for standing committees. This request would grant funding in the standard amount of $50,000 in an interim budget to the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying, following the usual formula of splitting the cost between the Senate and House: 70% to the House and 30% to the Senate. The funding would be taken from the 2023-24 global budget envelopes for our standing committees.BudgetSpecial Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in DyingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1115)[English]Thank you, Mr. Lemoine.Are there any questions? I see none.(Motion agreed to)Hon. Greg Fergus: Thank you.[Translation]We are now on the sixth item on the agenda, the progress report on the House of Commons accessibility plan for 2023.Mr. LaPerrière-Marcoux, you have the floor.BudgetSpecial Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in DyingScottLemoineGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaume-LaPerrière-MarcouxInterventionMr. Guillaume LaPerrière-Marcoux (Director, Accessibility Implementation, House of Commons): (1115)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm here to briefly present the progress report on the implementation of the House of Commons accessibility plan and to answer any questions you may have.The Board of Internal Economy adopted the House of Commons' first accessibility plan in November 2022. Under the Accessible Canada Act and its regulations, a progress report must be published by the end of December 2023.[English] The progress report described the work accomplished in 2023, including the consultation that took place and the feedback received by the accessibility secretariat. I'm happy to report that the House will be able to complete the 14 initiatives planned for this year as well as advance the work scheduled for 2024. Some highlights of these accomplishments include the deployment and testing of a live-captioning solution for visitors in the gallery; the development and launch of two training modules for MPs, their staff and House employees, one on general accessibility awareness and the other on accessibility customer service; and improvement to the accessibility of the House of Commons website, including almost 300 days of development dedicated to this effort.[Translation]In partnership with the Department of Public Works and Government Services, we've continued to make accessibility a priority in the rehabilitation projects on the Hill, especially with regard to Centre Block.Finally, I'd like to mention the launch of a centralized call centre for members and their staff, extended hours of service, in-person appointments and the online application portal.[English]Thank you for your attention. I welcome any questions.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1115)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. LaPerrière-Marcoux.Mr. Julian, you have the floor.GuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1115)[Translation]Mr. LaPerrière-Marcoux, thank you very much for the work you are doing.I have a couple of questions.First, I'd like to know how many House administration employees are disabled and in need of accessibility measures. I've asked this question before, but we didn't know the answer. I hope we'll get a better idea of that this year.Second, do we know approximately how many people visiting the House of Commons and Parliament Hill have accessibility needs?Third, it's one thing to have an accessibility plan in place, but it's another to inform people with disabilities across the country that you have one. Several years ago, the site was not accessible to these individuals. We remember that members with disabilities even had trouble travelling between their offices and the House of Commons.We're paying more attention to accessibility and we're making progress, but how is that communicated to associations across the country for people who are blind, deaf or paraplegic? It's important that these individuals know that we're doing this work, especially since their visits are an opportunity to tell us how we can improve accessibility on Parliament Hill even further.In short, how are we sharing this information across the country?Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaume-LaPerrière-MarcouxInterventionMr. Guillaume LaPerrière-Marcoux: (1120)[Translation]Thank you for the question, Mr. Julian.First of all, with respect to the associations that represent persons with disabilities and sharing what we've done with them, I must say that we're working in partnership with them to develop the plan. This year, we met with people from Disability Without Poverty, Inclusion Canada and Spinal Cord Injury Canada. This is a way for us to discuss with them our progress and the challenges they've encountered. For example, members of Disability Without Poverty have come to the Hill several times and we've had the opportunity to discuss the problems they've encountered with them. This helped us identify the barriers that needed to be addressed as a priority.Second, in terms of visitors to the Hill, we don't have any data for you. We can check with the Library of Parliament, which oversees visits. That said, as you can see in our plan, we're working hard to ensure that our built environment is accessible.With respect to the percentage of the House administration workforce who self-identify as disabled, we've launched a new self-identification questionnaire to try to get a better picture of the situation.This year, as part of the plan, we also hired people with disabilities with lived experience to help us with technology.I don't know if the numbers we have now have been distributed or not. I would have to check. The percentage of employees with disabilities would be around 3% or slightly below that. I would have to validate the information before giving you the exact answer.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1120)[Translation]Thank you for those answers.It would be important to have an idea of what the situation is for visitors. It should be noted that 15% to 20% of Canadians are living with a disability. If we don't have the appropriate accessibility measures and the percentage of people with disabilities among visitors is well below that number, it will show that we still have work to do.I also note that the vast majority of people who are homeless in this country are people with disabilities. That should be a priority.Thank you very much for the progress report. I would very much like to know about the number of visitors we have received in the past year and, more specifically, about accessibility on Parliament Hill.Thank you.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Julian.[English] Ms. Findlay.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (Chief Opposition Whip): (1120)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.[Translation]Thank you for your presentation, Mr. LaPerrière-Marcoux.[English]Stephanie Cadieux was named as Canada's first chief accessibility officer in May 2022. I'm wondering to what extent she has been consulted or has been involved in your work.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaume-LaPerrière-MarcouxInterventionMr. Guillaume LaPerrière-Marcoux: (1125)[English]I met with her in March 2023. We had a good discussion on the plan. She had positive feedback for us, and we committed to work together and keep that connection going.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1125)[English]You've had one meeting—Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaume-LaPerrière-MarcouxInterventionMr. Guillaume LaPerrière-Marcoux: (1125)[English]Yes.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1125)[English]—in a year and a half of her tenure.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaume-LaPerrière-MarcouxInterventionMr. Guillaume LaPerrière-Marcoux: (1125)[English]We started in February. Last year, the plan was adopted, so it's been a year now. She was in Ottawa in February, so we had a meeting with her. We presented the plan and had some discussion. I think it's part of our work of continuing consultations with different actors, in order to get feedback and work with her.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1125)[English]Canada appointed a chief accessibility officer—someone who is herself in a wheelchair and had a distinguished career in British Columbia, politically. She is someone who deals with a disability. I would think that continuing a more robust dialogue with the person designated for that purpose might be in order.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1125)[Translation]Thank you very much, Ms. Findlay.I'd like to use my prerogative as chair to ask a question as a follow‑up to Mr. Julian's.A survey will be conducted of House administration employees so they can self-identify as persons with special needs or persons with disabilities. I know that in other situations involving equity, there's always a concern about whether people are actually going to self-identify as this or that. Can we be assured that every possible means will be taken to encourage all employees with disabilities to self-identify?Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxGuillaume-LaPerrière-MarcouxInterventionMr. Guillaume LaPerrière-Marcoux: (1125)[Translation]Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.In fact, it is a self-identification questionnaire for employees that covers all types of diversity. It's really a priority for us to make sure people are aware. We have a campaign to promote self-identification. We just launched this new questionnaire in November. There used to be one in place, but the new questionnaire follows best practices, and there are considerably more categories and descriptions, generally speaking. So I want to make it clear that it's not just for accessibility issues.In short, a promotional campaign is indeed underway.Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1125)[Translation]Thank you very much.Are there any other questions?Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.GuillaumeLaPerrière-MarcouxClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1125)[Translation]Actually, Mr. Chair, I have no questions. However, before we go in camera, I have a brief statement to make.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1125)[Translation]Before we do that, we still have the seventh item on the agenda, which is the budget for the OSCE conference.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1125)[Translation]In that case, I'll wait.Would it be possible to let me have the floor again just before we go in camera? I have a quick message.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1125)[Translation]Okay.Thank you very much, Mr. LaPerrière-Marcoux.Is everyone in agreement with adopting this report?(Motion agreed to)Access for disabled peopleParliamentary precinctPersons with disabilitiesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1125)[Translation]I will now turn the floor over to Mr. LeBlanc, who will give us an update on the budget for the Organization for Security and Co‑operation in Europe, or OSCE, conference.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc (Clerk Assistant and Director General, International and Interparliamentary Affairs): (1125)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.[English] In July, the Parliament of Canada hosted the 30th annual session of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly in Vancouver. Delegates from 49 countries attended to debate and pass resolutions on a variety of topics ranging from Russia's war against Ukraine, migration and plastic pollution to artificial intelligence.While the conference itself was a success, several factors contributed to the total budget approved by the board and its equivalent in the Senate being exceeded. I want to note that this is a very unusual occurrence, since the conferences that we host are always delivered within the funding provided. Indeed, the typical budget utilization rate for conferences is around 80%, with surpluses returned to the consolidated revenue fund. The OSCE Parliamentary Assembly annual session faced a few unique and unprecedented challenges that have resulted in a substantial deficit in the conference budget.[Translation]As is the case for any conference organized by Parliament, we had an obligation to reserve blocks of rooms for participants at various hotels near the meeting place. To keep these rooms, the House administration has signed contracts with five hotels, guaranteeing them a certain level of revenue. As is often the case for bookings of this size, the contracts provided for certain penalties to compensate hotels if a certain number of rooms weren't used. The responsibility for those accommodations is transferred to the conference participants as they book their room.The budget for each conference that we present includes an amount for attrition penalties, which are generally between $15,000 and $20,000, in case the agreed-upon occupancy thresholds aren't met. In this case, the attrition penalties were much higher than the usual amounts. This is partly due to lower‑than‑expected attendance at the conference, but also because many delegates chose to stay at other hotels further away.(1130)[English]In relation to attendance, based on past sessions, the agreement that we signed with the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly secretariat required us to make arrangements for 700 participants, but only 365 delegates attended alongside 163 others for a total of 528. Already, this is 25% lower than what we were expecting.Compounding this was a decision by about a third of those participants to stay at other hotels some distance from the convention centre and not in the hotels we had negotiated for the conference. This is a phenomenon that we've never encountered before. Perhaps it could be explained by other parliaments feeling similar pressures to our own associations, where they're attempting to stretch limited budgets further in the face of rising travel costs. This may be especially true in the case of delegations to the OSCE PA, where travelling to Vancouver is significantly farther than would be typical for this conference, which is usually held in Europe.[Translation]Our experience in hosting the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference in Halifax in August 2022, where attendance was higher than expected and where hotel room blocks had completely sold out, led us to believe that attendance at conferences had returned to pre‑pandemic levels. This hasn't been the case for the annual session of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly. As a result, Parliament was unable to meet the contractual threshold for hotel occupancy in four of the five cases.While we were able to take a number of steps to reduce our overall liability—these measures are explained in your briefing note—the combined penalties in those hotels were 1,400 nights, valued at $596,000.[English]On top of this, the costs associated with technical and audiovisual support at the Vancouver Convention Centre were higher than forecast. As has been noted previously in relation to conference budgets, consolidation in this industry has led to increased costs for event support at all conferences. This was the second factor contributing to the high cost of hosting the annual session.There were, however, cost savings in other areas of the budget, including large categories like salaries, meals and hospitality. These were not significant enough to erase the uniquely high level of attrition penalties and the additional audiovisual costs. Thus, the conference finished with a deficit of $649,000, which we anticipate being able to absorb from within existing funding. As within all interparliamentary budgets, the House of Commons is responsible for 70%, and the Senate is responsible for 30% of this.I want to emphasize that my team and I and our partners recognize the seriousness of these cost overruns. I want to reassure the board that steps are being taken to avoid incurring significant deficits in the future when the Parliament of Canada hosts conferences. While our room to manoeuvre and negotiate more favourable contracts with major hotel chains in popular markets at peak times of the year is perhaps somewhat limited, we're working closely with our materiel and contract management staff to identify areas where improvements can be made. We're also being much more conservative in projecting the participation at conferences, given the vastly different experience we have seen in the last two that we have hosted.While we have always selected a range of hotels at varying levels to offer to delegates, we will be more sensitive to the fact that many participants may put cost ahead of convenience in making their selection.[Translation]Thank you for the opportunity to explain these circumstances.I look forward to your questions.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1130)[English]Thank you, Monsieur LeBlanc.We have three questions so far starting with Mrs. Findlay.JeremyLeBlancKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1130)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I think this is a disastrous waste of money, quite frankly. It's hundreds of thousands of dollars wasted. I have three questions.With the Vancouver conference, has the parliamentary wing of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe ever met this far away from Europe before?BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1135)[English]They met in Toronto the last time we hosted, which is closer.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1135)[English]That's still 4,000 kilometres away. I know, because I go back and forth every week, how far it is. This was an exceptional thing to hold this particular conference in Vancouver. I understand that Dr. Fry was the chair, but I also note that Dr. Fry appeared before this board in 2018 and 2021 to request approvals to host this conference. I'm wondering was she not available today to appear here to answer to the outcomes because she was able to come here to ask to host it in the first place.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)JeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1135)[English]That's a decision that we made. The cost overruns aren't the fault of the association. They are due to the contracts the administration negotiated and so for the administration I'm here to respond to those questions.I didn't ask Dr. Fry, but, certainly, if you would like to follow up with Dr. Fry we can arrange to have her appear.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1135)[English]This is my last question. Obviously, are talking about lessons learned for the future, but I'm not clear exactly what lessons you have learned from your presentation other than you said you would be more conservative in your estimates and understand that some delegates would put cost ahead of convenience.I would have thought that's something that could have been determined before this conference, particularly as you related to the last two conferences. Is there some mechanism, some survey of delegates, or some way you intend to determine further ahead the participation levels, the location, that would be most attractive for these purposes and also what their preferences would be?BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)JeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1135)[English]We haven't undertaken a survey of the delegates who attended this conference, but in the planning of future conferences that's something we're more conscious of.Vancouver is a particular market. You understand how expensive real estate and hotels in downtown Vancouver are. There weren't a large number of other options very close to the venue that would have been more cost efficient for delegates, which is why we were surprised that delegates chose to stay some distance from the convention centre.In terms of future things we are looking at, there are a number of measures we're taking in relation to conferences we're hosting next year in Montreal, which include making sure that conference participants have greater liability for rooms they may reserve and then cancel. A number of delegates had planned on attending the conference in Vancouver and didn't show up. The liability for their rooms under the terms of the contract remained with us rather than being transferred to them. That's something we're changing for future conferences.We're working with the hotel chains and our contracting teams to be able to negotiate more favourable attrition rates and more favourable ways of calculating that attrition in the future. We're also looking at tiered cancellation clauses, which provide more flexible lead time so that should give us more ability in the future to avoid problems like this.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1135)[English]Thank you.JeremyLeBlancGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1135)[English]Minister Gould.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould: (1135)[English]Thank you.I don't have any questions. I appreciate your explanation. I read through the document and note there are a number of lessons learned.I think I only have disappointment to express in this regard because I think this is a large sum that was not well spent. I would really like for the record to show that, quite frankly, we expect better of the management of House resources.I think when we have previous presentations that come forward asking for additional resources to go towards parliamentary delegations and parliamentary associations, this is an unacceptable situation to be in so I would encourage this area of House administration to learn those lessons and to do better next time.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1135)[English] Thank you, Minister. That's well noted.Mr. Scheer.KarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1135)[English]On page 2 of the briefing note in the middle paragraph, it says, “Meanwhile a large delegation selected one of the recommended hotels while negotiating their own contract to include meeting rooms in addition to their rooms.” I just want a little bit of clarification. Were we on the hook for those extra meeting rooms, or are you telling us that they basically took their whole delegation on a separate track? Did they cover all their costs; therefore, did those nights just not count against what you had negotiated, or did they bind us to something where we ended up having to cover extra costs for meeting rooms that weren't originally part of what was planned?BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1140)[English]It's the first explanation. They signed their own contract, so the room nights they used were not counted against our contract.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1140)[English]Mr. Julian. JeremyLeBlancPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[English]I'm really disturbed by this. This is a massive deficit. I just think, at a time when Canadians are really struggling, I can't see it being justified.You mentioned earlier, Mr. LeBlanc, that there were rooms where the reservation was booked and the person or their delegation did not show up. How many rooms were there where we basically paid for that reservation?BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1140)[English]I don't think I have the exact number at my fingertips. Maybe one of my aides has it. I think the total cost of rooms that were reserved by delegates and then were subsequently cancelled is in the area of $100,000 of that $596,000 in penalties.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[English]Those were subsequently cancelled, but are you saying it's in terms of us picking up the tab for people who didn't show? Okay.Then, most of the other $600,000 came from not meeting the thresholds that were part of the contract and having to pay the minimum.The OSCE is a very well-financed organization with over $210 million annually; it has a huge budget. What is their responsibility when Canada is asked to take on an event like this? What do they contribute, and how do they provide supports when things go wrong, as clearly happened in this case?BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)JeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1140)[English]There's an agreement that we sign with the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly prior to hosting a conference, which sets out the responsibilities of each side. In those responsibilities, the host country is responsible for making the arrangements around the accommodations.I take the point that there should perhaps be a discussion with those international secretariats about how to share potential liability in situations where, for whatever reason, delegates choose to not show up in the numbers that are expected and agreed upon. The agreement we have with the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly is clear that the host nation is the one responsible for making the arrangements around accommodations.BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[English]Then we get the liability for the fact that the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly didn't show up. Half of the projected numbers didn't show up. I don't find it acceptable for us to be contributing to an international organization in such a significant way, and they simply have no liability for what was clearly, I think it's fair to say, a request made of us that we accepted and that they didn't follow through on when half of the delegates did not come.There is a major problem. I would stress that in any future international conference, particularly with a well-endowed international organization like the OSCE, the liability should not go to Canadians. They need to make sure they are meeting their obligations. Their obligations, I believe, were to send the 700 delegates and to make sure that the delegate contingent who went was in the order of what it should be.I do think, on our side, we should never be taking on cancelled hotel rooms. If somebody doesn't follow through, it should be on their dime. They make the reservation with their credit card, and if they decide not to show up, it's on them.My final question is around the Senate division. This has come up before with the GIC. Senators participate far beyond that 30% number that is the common division between the House of Commons resources and the Senate resources. I believe strongly, given that senators participate in these international events far more than their contribution warrants, that either there should be a cap on Senate participation or they should start carrying their full weight and paying a much greater percentage.Is that something the House administration is exploring now with the Senate?BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)JeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1145)[English]In response to your comment about the liability of the international secretariat, one point I would make is this: Ultimately, each country makes its own decision about participation, rather than the international secretariat. In the same way that Canada wasn't forced to attend the conference that just occurred in Armenia a while ago, the Armenians weren't forced to attend. Armenia, Greece, Spain, Portugal and all those countries make their own decisions, rather than the international secretariat making the decision for them.In terms of cost sharing between the House of Commons and the Senate, part of the reason the percentage of participation among senators is higher, quite honestly, is that a number of members are not participating. In all the delegations we organize, we respect that same formula of 70% from the House of Commons and 30% from the Senate. For reasons related to a minority Parliament, obligations of pairing and other reasons like that, there are situations where members aren't able to participate fully, or their participation is planned and cancelled at the last minute because of parliamentary obligations. However, if there were a desire to renegotiate the terms of the funding around international affairs, I think that's a discussion that would, first, most appropriately occur at the Joint Interparliamentary Council, which makes the decisions for parliamentary associations, and makes financial policy decisions around the management of budgets and the activities of associations. Ultimately, the internal economy committee in the Senate and this board would make the decisions about how the funding is shared. BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1145)[English]Thank you for that comment.I'll come back to your previous comment about the international secretariat's responsibility. I would suggest that, when the international secretariat asks Canada to take on something like this, they have a responsibility to ensure member countries are participating. If it's very clear to the secretariat that a number of countries have chosen not to participate, this should be flagged well in advance, so we can avoid the kind of situation that happened here. That is my point. I don't think we disagree. The question of responsibility is still something the secretariat needs to consider. In this case, given how well financed the OSCE is, I suggest that, in a normal situation, they should be willing to look at the situation and provide some support, as well. BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)JeremyLeBlancGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1145)[English]Thank you.I'd like to thank all members for their participation. All of your comments on this have been noted, and we will continue to go forward. [Translation]Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.(Motion agreed to)BudgetInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1145)[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you had a point you wanted to raise before we go in camera, so the floor is yours.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Chair, can we consider today's meeting to be the last one in 2023 and that we will meet again in January 2024, or is another Board of Internal Economy meeting scheduled before the Christmas break?GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1145)[Translation]So far, unless I hear otherwise, this is our last meeting before the holidays.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1145)[Translation]Okay.I didn't want us to get carried away without even wishing each other a merry Christmas and a good start to 2024.On behalf of the Bloc Québécois, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the new clerk of the House, who was appointed last week. We'll team up with Mr. Janse. We wanted to publicly congratulate him here at this meeting of the Board of Internal Economy.I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the entire team that supports the members, be it the procedure team or the administration's general team, not to mention the interpreters, of course, who support us and who have worked hard over the past year. As whip, I am very pleased to be able to count on the co‑operation of all sectors of the House administration. I feel that they are very present. They are committed to supporting us so that we can do our job properly. I wanted to thank them publicly today.So I wish Mr. Janse the best of luck. I imagine that the deputy clerk of procedure and deputy clerk of administration will soon round out his team.I would also like to acknowledge the exceptional work of the clerks, who don't have an easy job these days. Last night, I was filled with admiration for the fine work done by the clerks. I think that Mr. McDonald's team has been nimble in providing the Standing Committee on Natural Resources with experienced clerks who have been able to provide excellent support to the members and the chair.In short, I wish everyone a happy holiday season and a happy rest. I hope we will be in good shape in 2024.On behalf of the Bloc Québécois, I would like to extend our congratulations to everyone.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much for those wishes, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. That's very generous of you.As Speaker of the House, I too would like to thank all MPs and all members of the Board of Internal Economy and wish everyone a happy holiday, merry Christmas or happy Hanukkah. I hope to see you in good health in 2024.Ms. Gould, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould: (1150)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English] I have a couple of points.First, Mr. Gerretsen asked me to raise at a future BOIE meeting the potential discussion item of how to differentiate the mileage for EV and combustion vehicles for members, and their travel to and from Ottawa. I want to formally ask that we put that on the record.This will be my last BOIE meeting before I go on maternity leave. I would also like to echo Madame DeBellefeuille's comments, and really express, on behalf of the Liberal Party of Canada and Liberal members of Parliament, our appreciation for House administration, and the incredible work that all of the employees of the House of Commons and Parliament do in supporting us day in and day out.I would also like to wish everybody happy holidays, and some good rest. I'll see you in the new year, but not in January, because I will probably have a days-old baby with me. It's been a short tenure on BOIE, so far, but I look forward to returning later on in the new year.Thank you very much.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1150)[English]Thank you, Minister Gould.All the best on the delivery of your young child. I hope that everyone will be healthy and happy. Blessings for you in 2024.We will now go in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera]KarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0241st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, November 23, 2023Le jeudi 23 novembre 2023Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTNovember 23, 2023CommitteeNUMBER 024NUMBER 024NUMÉRO 024024231120232023/11/23 11:05:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144GregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1105)[Translation]I call the meeting to order.Good morning and welcome, everyone, to meeting number 24 of the Board of Internal Economy. Part of our meeting will be held in camera, as is our custom. However, much of it will be public.We'll start quickly with the minutes of the previous meeting. This will be public, and then we'll go in camera for a good part of our discussion. We'll then return to the public format for an update on the LTVP working group, the Long Term Vision and Plan for the Parliamentary Precinct, and a discussion of the budget for the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organization for Security and Co‑operation in Europe.Are there any changes to be made to the minutes of the previous meeting? I see that no one is raising any, and Mr. Julian proposes that they be adopted. Are you in agreement?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Speaker: The minutes of the previous meeting are therefore adopted.[English] Are there any issues or business arising from the previous minutes?Seeing none, do we have consent to adopt this?Thank you. It is agreed.[Translation]We will now go in camera.[The meeting continues in camera.](1105)(1110)[The public meeting resumes.]Chrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont (Chair, Working Group on the LTVP and the Centre Block Rehabilitation, House of Commons): (1315)[English] All right, we'll go quickly.There are four recommendations, as follows: Number one is that a dedicated inclusive space for ceremonial cultural practices be included in the newly created area on the fourth floor of the central courtyard infill, while the overall approach in the building and processes accommodate cultural practices such as smudging and qulliq activities throughout Centre Block with advance notice.Number two is that the fourth and fifth levels of the central courtyard infill be designed for flexible workspaces available to all parliamentarians, and that further detailed design options be vetted through the working group.Number three is that gallery seating in the north and south galleries be designed with benching to maximize capacity; that design development and mock-ups be brought back for input and approval; that the east and west galleries be designed to allow for future conversion to benching; and that the building be planned to allow for future increased capacity, based on the approval of the developed benching design.Number four is endorsing the number of locations and sizes of the leadership suites and standard parliamentarian office units—or POUs—proposed, so the design can progress, knowing that allocations can still be further reviewed.Those are the four.Centre BlockIndigenous peoplesParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1320)[English]Thank you very much, Chris. That was perfect. [Translation]I now give the floor to Ms. DeBellefeuille.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1320)[Translation] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Mr. d'Entremont, thank you for making an effort to reduce this to four proposals. We were always talking about 21 decisions to be made, but you've established your priorities.I consider that the ones we have in front of us have been discussed. Indeed, the committee made the decision to delegate representatives to this working group. In my mind, a representative is someone who liaises with his caucus and with his whip and to whom we have delegated a power of representation. When Mr. Plamondon, who represents us, brings his ideas and debates them, I can have access to his minutes, so I'm kept informed. As a member of the Board of Internal Economy, I don't expect to have to repeat debates that the working group has held. I expect explanations and I trust the working group. My colleague Mr. Plamondon told me that the committee would be holding three meetings, scheduled for the next three Fridays. You're working hard.I can assure you that the Bloc Québécois considers Mr. Plamondon to have a representative function. Today, I'm not going to say that we're against the four proposals, since we've already told Mr. Plamondon that we agree. However, I'd like to ask a question that I think is important. I know there's been a lot of discussion surrounding the designation of a room for smoke purification and qulliq ceremonies. The room you're proposing is going to be well-built and will be able to handle the smoke and prevent the smoke detectors from going off. Everything has been planned to ensure that everything takes place safely and with full respect for indigenous peoples. We fully agree with this decision.However, we wouldn't want a room set aside for these ceremonies to be used for anything other than what it was created for. In other words, we wouldn't want there to be any slippage and open the door to this or any other room being used for multi-faith purposes. When the Centre Block is ready, we wouldn't want a room reserved for these smoke purification ceremonies to be used for other religious purposes. I'm not telling you anything new when I say that, for the Bloc Québécois, there must be a separation between church and state.We want assurances that this room is going to be used only for what it's dedicated to, which is purification ceremonies through smoke and qulliq. Can we have the Board of Internal Economy's agreement in this regard? Has your working group made a decision to that effect?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1320)[Translation]Our working group has talked about this on several occasions. That's why we decided instead to talk about ceremonial practices that make use of smoke. I'm thinking, for example, of an eastern religious practice, of the Orthodox Church, which uses a lot of incense. We could also use this room for these practices, because it's designed for smoke. We know that this room is mainly reserved for indigenous ceremonies, but it could be used a little for other purposes, although not much.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1320)[Translation]In your note, there was no mention of this. It did say that this space was for smoke purification ceremonies and qulliq. Your presentation note made it clear that the objective was to support the whole issue and indigenous practices. We agree on that. But now you're adding a usage that's not listed in your note. Can you explain why it's not there? You present us with this new element, of which I was not aware, while we are at the end of the discussion.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectChrisd'EntremontWest NovaChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1320)[Translation]I knew it would take a little longer.We've had a lot of discussions over the past few weeks, following our last meeting. We received a lot of feedback from every party. Some people were not against the idea of using this space for other purposes during the week. So we made a few adjustments so that it wouldn't just be indigenous activities including smoke cleansing and qulliq, but the room would be used primarily for those purposes.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1320)[Translation]Thank you. We'll come back to that, but I'd also like us to address the other two questions.Ms. Sahota, you have the floor.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaRubySahotaBrampton North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88698RubySahotaRuby-SahotaBrampton NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SahotaRuby_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Ruby Sahota (Deputy Government Whip): (1320)[English]I'll start my comments by saying that we can have a lengthier conversation back at the LTVP.Just like Monsieur Plamondon is, Mr. MacKinnon, Mr. Gerretsen and I are also on the working group, and we can take it back and discuss it further.I, too, have issues with the cultural space. I think there should be some flexibility, just like we have flexibility all over, in all of the rooms and how we use them—committee rooms and reception rooms in the evening—but I do think that this space should specifically be honouring our first peoples. The name of the room should be predominantly for the indigenous and first peoples of this country, and their access to that room and their need or use of that room should become a priority.I'm sure there would be a willingness—and we can discuss it further—that it could be used for other cultural events if needed, but the space should not just be a called a room for all cultural purposes. It should be dedicated to them.That's my opinion on that, and it seems like there's further discussion needed. I know Ms. Gould had some comments about this, as well, previously, so I think we should take it back there.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1325)[English]Before we go to Mr. d'Entremont to reply, Ms. Findlay, perhaps it's good to have all of the questions on the table.RubySahotaBrampton NorthKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (Chief Opposition Whip): (1325)[English]I want to say that we're in agreement with the four decisions that have to be made. Maybe that's where I should start.Having said that, I actually thought we'd moved past this conversation. Now I feel like this conversation has regressed on the ceremonial practice. It's not religious, necessarily. My understanding is that by changing to characterizing it that way, it would open up the space for more than just indigenous people.Also, my understanding is that there are no reasons that indigenous people would need use of this space every day of every week of every year, and that there are others who would look to spaces such as this. By approaching it this way, we were not dishonouring indigenous people. It's quite the opposite. It is a place where they can go for ceremony, as they choose and when it's appropriate—when there's indigenous legislation, perhaps, or other things going on. However, to have this large space that only one designated group can use when others could make use of it does not seem reasonable to us, so I feel like this whole conversation now has regressed back to where we were a couple of months ago.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1325)[English]I'm going to suggest—if we can go back to the previous slide—that there are five recommendations that were made.I hear that there is consensus for the bottom four and that the first one.... Let's table that.Chris, I'm sorry to put this back onto you, but if we could take it back to committee and see if we can come back....Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Chief Government Whip): (1325)[English]Can I make a quick suggestion on that point?The debate that's been had about the designation or the nature of the room is an appropriate discussion. We can do that, but I think Mr. Wright would agree that there are some architectural and planning issues that perhaps aren't affected by that discussion. They can go forward.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1325)[English]That's a fair point.We agree about the creation of that room and that space, so that, for the purposes of—Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1325)[English]Yes.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1325)[Translation]As for its use, that's another issue we can come back to.Is there a consensus for the creation and use of this space?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1325)[Translation]I agree.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1325)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Findlay.Mr. Julian, are you raising your hand because you agree?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1325)[Translation]Actually, Mr. Chair, I'd like to speak.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1325)[Translation]All right.First, I yield the floor to Ms. DeBellefeuille.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1325)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I think my intervention was clear. We are not opposed to having a room for smoke purification and qulliq activities. We are opposed to this room becoming a space for practising religion. We see a clear difference.The architectural decision surrounding the creation of this room is important and I don't see a problem with it. However, my concern — which I think is shared by a few members here — is at what stage can we discuss the function and use of this room, in a transparent way, so that we can sort this out together. What do you propose? Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1325)[Translation]Again, for architectural reasons and engineering needs, there seems to be consensus on building this room. We're not going to create another room or do a different design from what already exists. I see a consensus on this, subject to Mr. Julian's intervention. If that's the case, we can at least give the green light to go ahead with the construction of this room. We'll come back to its use later.Mr. Julian, the floor is yours.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1325)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.We just have an architectural decision to make now. I think there's a consensus on that. We can have a discussion on the use of the room later.I think we've decided to adopt all the recommendations that have been proposed. Are there any others left for the next three weeks, between now and the Christmas break? Are you going to come back to them at the next meeting?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1330)[Translation]Mr. d'Entremont, you have the floor.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1330)[English]There are a number of decisions that we're going to have to make. There is now a new schedule for meetings that are coming up over the next number of weeks, on December 1 and December 8. We provide it in your package with the questions or recommendations that we're going to have to look at. That will be coming to the board over the next few weeks. I suggest that we will probably be coming back to you in early January or at the next meeting in the new year.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1330)[Translation]Thank you.[English] We have consensus.Thank you very much.We're adjourned.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0231st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, November 9, 2023Le jeudi 9 novembre 2023Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTNovember 9, 2023CommitteeNUMBER 023NUMBER 023NUMÉRO 023023091120232023/11/09 11:05:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144GregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1105)[Translation]Good morning, everyone.Welcome to meeting No. 23 of the Board of Internal Economy.There are currently enough members of the Board of Internal Economy in the room to start the meeting straight away.[English] Let's first start off with minutes of the previous meeting. I know members have had the opportunity to take a look at the minutes.I see Mr. Julian has a point to raise.PeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1105)[Translation]At the last meeting, we discussed renovations taking place on Centre Block. We learned that there are 21 decisions to be made before Christmas, which concerns me a little. I think it concerns everyone.So I'd like to know if you've already planned when we'll have the chance to discuss and approve these decisions, since time is of the essence.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]At our last meeting a few days ago, we agreed that we would revisit this issue at the November 23 meeting. I'd like to point out that we won't be making all 21 decisions in a single meeting. We're going to do it at the next meeting and the meeting after that, which I believe will be on December 9.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1105)[Translation]Thank you.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]You're welcome.Would anyone like to move to adopt the minutes of the last meeting?Thank you, Mr. Scheer.I see no dissent.Thank you, Ms. Findlay.[English] We'll move to item number two, business arising from the minutes. Are there any other issues? Is there any dissidence to moving to the next issue?Seeing none, we'll move on to the interpretation report.[Translation]I would like to invite Mr. Laporte, accompanied by his team, to make his opening remarks.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte (Chief Executive Officer, Translation Bureau): (1105)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I recognize that we are gathered here today on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.I would like to acknowledge Cécilia, Lylian and Alison, who are interpreting this meeting, and also thank Matthew Ball, vice-president of Services to Parliament and Interpretation, for representing the Translation Bureau with me today.Mr. Chair, I would begin by congratulating you on being appointed Speaker of the House of Commons. As you know, the Translation Bureau of Public Services and Procurement Canada is a key component of the services provided for parliamentarians. Rest assured, you can count on our support in your new duties.Today's topic, interpretation services, gives concrete expression to this support. The Translation Bureau has gone above and beyond to meet the House of Commons' interpretation needs, and we thank the Board of Internal Economy's honourable members for giving us this opportunity to provide an update on the situation.As I have already said in the past, there are two closely linked aspects to the current state of interpretation services: the health and safety of interpreters, and interpretation capacity. In both cases, I am pleased to report that we have made significant progress since June.(1110)[English] Let me first talk about the health and safety of interpreters, our prime concern.As you may know, Mr. Chair, Employment and Social Development Canada's labour program issued two directions to the translation bureau in February. On August 25, the labour program investigator closed the direction, stating she was satisfied that the bureau complied with the requirements of the Canada Labour Code and the Canada occupational health and safety regulations.This outcome was made possible thanks to the translation bureau's unflagging efforts, along with the invaluable co-operation of the House administration and a group of sound and hearing experts. Together, the bureau and the House administration put in place a comprehensive series of protocols regarding the microphones used by virtual participants in order to provide a sound environment that would be conducive to interpretation. They also obtained sound analyses from experts at the National Research Council of Canada, Western University and the University of Ottawa.This positive development does not mean that the health and safety issues are behind us. We must all remain vigilant. Sound incidents, such as the Larsen effect or audio feedback, continue to be reported from time to time at in-person meetings. Simple actions, like keeping earpieces away from the microphone are helpful in avoiding these types of issues.It is also to be noted that we continue to provide the labour program investigator with monthly progress of updates on the efforts made by the bureau to better protect its interpreters.I would like to take this opportunity to thank you, honourable members of the Board of Internal Economy, for your ongoing support. As whips, leaders and influential members of your parties, you help ensure that your colleagues are aware of this issue and, most importantly, that they apply interpreter protection measures and demonstrate understanding and support when interpreters need to interrupt their services to avoid injury.We have everything to gain by protecting interpreters, first and foremost on a human level but also on an operational level to maintain our interpretation capacity.[Translation]We recently saw a perfect example of this relationship between improving interpreters' working conditions and interpretation capacity, when a number of freelance interpreters decided to work longer hours instead of limiting themselves to the reduced working hours in effect since the pandemic. A labour-management advisory group is currently looking into that matter for our staff interpreters.This is one development that may lead to an increase in our capacity. For the time being, our capacity remains stable at pre-pandemic volumes, which in itself is an accomplishment in the current context where we have injured interpreters and a labour shortage. That said, we are making significant progress with our efforts to meet the desire by honourable MPs to prolong meetings and increase their number.Among other things, we were able to slightly expand our inventory of freelance interpreters this summer thanks to two initiatives: for the first time, we held a second accreditation exam in the same year, and we issued a call for tenders to renew our freelance interpretation contracts. Since freelancers do not work exclusively for us and their availabilities vary, bringing in this new blood has not yet translated into a noticeable increase in our capacity. However, we hope that other steps we take, like the accreditation exam in November—to be held tomorrow, incidentally—will help us achieve our goal.Of course, we need to keep in mind that the pool of active conference interpreters in Canada is very limited. The handful of new graduates who join the pool each year is not enough to offset those who retire. We are thus unable to achieve a net gain in capacity each time we issue a new call for tenders or hold a new accreditation exam.[English]In hopes of increasing the number of graduates, we are still in talks with universities to expand the teaching of conference interpretation beyond the two universities that currently offer program in Canada. We have been having promising discussions with two Quebec universities in this regard.We are also working with the language industry to encourage people of all ages to consider a career in interpretation, and we are dealing with a recruitment firm to find new interpreters.Lastly, I know that you are very interested in the pilot project intended to enable interpreters located outside the national capital region to interpret for Parliament. Let me assure you that we are continuing to work hard on this with the House administration.Mr. Chair, honourable members of the Board of Internal Economy, I hope this update shows how the bureau is leaving no stone unturned to maintain and eventually boost its capacity, while protecting its interpreters, in an effort to better meet your needs.Matthew and I are now at your disposal to take your questions.[Translation]Thank you.StaffingWorkplace health and safetyGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1115)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Laporte.Before we move on to questions and answers, I'd like to give Mr. McDonald the opportunity to make a few comments.DominicLaporteIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald (Clerk Assistant, Committees and Legislative Services Directorate, House of Commons): (1115)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I have two points to raise with the Board of Internal Economy today. First, I'll talk about the latest virtual committees dashboard. Then, I'll give an update on the remote simultaneous interpretation pilot project, which Mr. Laporte just mentioned.The members of the Board of Internal Economy have been provided with a copy of the latest virtual committee dashboard. Overall, the dashboard shows a stabilization of the key data points we use to review the results of our efforts to keep committee meetings running with as few interruptions as possible. It's true that problems still occur here and there, but our monitoring shows that, when witnesses are properly equipped and coached, and have completed the required tests, there's a good chance that they'll be able to participate in committee meetings without too many interruptions.[English] As members of the board know, this is the result of considerable investments made by the House in our ongoing partnership with our colleagues at the translation bureau.We've been reviewing existing procedures and have the teams in place to make sure that we can continuously meet the requirements for supporting meetings with remote participants in a way that meets the requirements of today. For example, considerable efforts continue to be made by the House team to onboard all virtual witnesses by equipping them with approved headsets and scheduling them for pretests to validate their set-up prior to their appearance before our committee. Further resources are on hand during every meeting to coordinate, initiate, operate, monitor and support the video conference portion. These resources help to, among other things, facilitate the technical and audio tests with all virtual participants and the interpreters immediately before each meeting.Teams that are supporting meetings, including interpreters, also work together to share their observations, collect information on issues and ensure a follow-up when required.[Translation]The House has engaged in a process of continuous improvement, and we continue to work with the Translation Bureau to identify opportunities for improvement to support the work of committees. Mr. Laporte just mentioned the work that's being done on feedback. A team is working to find solutions that can improve the current situation.I'll now talk about the remote interpretation pilot project.At the last meeting of the Board of Internal Economy, we were asked to provide an update on this project. As Mr. Laporte mentioned a few moments ago, the Translation Bureau has been working hard on this file for several months. This pilot project will allow interpreters accredited by the Translation Bureau who live outside the national capital region to offer their services to Parliament. This service was first piloted in April. Additional tests and simulations have been conducted in recent months. The service has now been successfully used 19 times for unpublished and non-parliamentary meetings.In recent weeks, the teams have also participated in simulations in parallel with real committee meetings to ensure that the service was functioning properly from a technical standpoint and that it met the Translation Bureau's service standards.Ultimately, the goal is for this service to be as transparent as possible for the participants in the meetings.[English]In the coming days, the House administration will be reaching out to the party whips to propose an implementation schedule to bring the service online for regular committee meetings. It is proposed that this begin on November 20, which is to say on return from the upcoming constituency week.Initially, we propose to have one RSI meeting a day between Monday and Thursday, providing support to a regularly scheduled committee from the existing schedule. For the initial rollout, it is felt that the best option for the whips is to choose specific committees that will regularly use this service. This way, the interpreters will be familiar with the committee and the content, and the members will more quickly become familiar with the service. In the coming weeks, a second RSI meeting will be planned on the same days to maximize the use of these new interpretation resources.What does this mean in terms of capacity? Ultimately, this will bring two new meeting slots per day from Monday to Thursday, thereby adding eight potential new meeting slots to the committee events schedule.From now until the winter adjournment, it is recommended that this new capacity be used mostly to bring some needed flexibility to the existing committee schedule; to help reduce cancellations due to meetings that require extra time, occasional extra meetings or late sittings of the House; and, when available, to use the existing in-person teams to support other activities that have less access to interpretation resources at the present time, including regional caucuses, interparliamentary events and other events.(1120)Here is just one example: Currently, when the board meets on Thursday mornings, like it is this morning, a committee in the same meeting block needs to be cancelled. With the new RSI pilot project going forward, it would not be necessary to cancel a committee meeting when the board meets.[Translation]Ultimately, those decisions will be made by the whips in the days and weeks to come, and House administration will be ready to provide them with the assistance and information they need to make the most effective use of all available resources.Thank you, Mr. Chair.We'll be pleased to answer any questions.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. McDonald and Mr. Laporte.I've started to draw up a list of people who would like to speak. First up is Mr. Julian, followed by Mr. Gerretsen, then Mrs. DeBellefeuille.Go ahead, Mr. Julian.IanMcDonaldPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1120)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you for the status report. I have a couple of questions on that.It's true that everyone has really made an effort in recent months to reduce the number of injuries among interpreters. It's crucial. As we've said on a number of occasions, we wouldn't have a Parliament in Canada without the interpreters. Their work is essential. I'm pleased to see that progress is being made in this area. The clerks, the chairs of parliamentary committees and all parliamentarians are working together to reduce the number of injuries. Despite everything, as you so aptly put it, workplace accidents are still happening.What other measures are you considering so that we can have a work environment free of hearing injuries?Workplace health and safetyGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1120)[Translation]I thank the member for his question.I would say that an awful lot has been done in the last six months. We're seeing a significant decrease in the number of incidents reported to us.Of course, every accident or incident is always one too many, and we want to limit the number of them. Are we ever going to operate in a zero-risk environment? I don't think so. Incidents would occur when services were offered on site before the pandemic. So we have to be aware of that.We work very closely with our partners here, namely, Mr. McDonald and his team. Every time an incident occurs, we try to find the main source of the problem. We've strengthened our protocols in place for wearing the microphone and selecting the right headset for the interpreters. We also work with audiologists. I would say it's a continuous improvement program. We'll continue to work with sound experts to see what can be done in that regard.That's really the lens through which we're working. There's not necessarily a silver bullet or a step that we haven't taken yet that would allow us to say we can eliminate a lot of the incidents. Awareness is also important. One of the things we mentioned was the work that's being done on feedback. It also allows us to make a lot of progress.Those are the main areas we're working on.I can let Mr. Ball provide more context, if he wishes.Workplace health and safetyPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball (Vice-President, Services to Parliament and Interpretation Sector, Translation Bureau): (1120)[Translation]Thank you.In fact, Mr. Laporte just described all the efforts that the bureau is pursuing. We rely on the opinions of acoustic and audiology experts. Reports are constantly being made.We're also working closely with the House of Commons administration, which is conducting additional tests on its own initiative to fully understand the audio functioning of its system.I think we've made a lot of progress so far. As Mr. Laporte just said, there will certainly be risks. There have always been, even before the pandemic. However, we're optimistic. We believe we're on the right track to reduce the number of incidents. We've seen that over the last number of months.Workplace health and safetyDominicLaportePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1120)[Translation]Thank you.My second question is about the labour-management advisory group.Do you have a timeline for the issue currently being discussed by this group? Will it be resolved in the short term, or in the medium term?Advisory bodiesLabour forceMatthewBallDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1125)[Translation]Thank you for the question.The group began looking at this issue over the summer. So far, we've had six or seven meetings between management and the union, and they've been very productive. Of course, we want to hear the comments of our interpreters to try to find a way to come to an amicable agreement.We don't have a specific timeline, but discussions are ongoing. Good progress has been made.Basically, we're trying to look at a range of options. Sometimes, too, it can be on a case-by-case basis. Not all interpreters are in the same situation. Some interpreters have been injured. There isn't necessarily a single easy solution, such as returning to normal working hours.All in all, I would say that we're having very productive discussions. The process isn't going to take two or three years. I think both sides want to resolve this quickly.Advisory bodiesLabour forcePeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1125)[Translation]Thank you.You talked about an accreditation exam that took place this summer, if I understood correctly. How many candidates took the accreditation exam, and how many were successful?Similarly, there's another accreditation exam tomorrow. How many candidates will take the exam?Labour forceDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1125)[Translation]Thank you for the question. I had a feeling someone would ask it.Fewer candidates registered for the certification exam that took place in June; there were 38. Four of them were successful. So we had a lower success rate. Perhaps the reason is that a lot of people were taking the exam for a second time. It was also the first time we'd had the exam in June. All in all, we had three new candidates who passed the exam.We have 57 people registered to take the accreditation exam tomorrow.Labour forcePeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1125)[Translation]Did you say 57?Labour forceDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1125)[Translation]Yes, there are 57 candidates.Labour forcePeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1125)[Translation]I know that the interpreters do a great deal of high-quality work. Given the very high requirements, I understand that the success rate is low.Tomorrow, 57 candidates will take the exam. Last time, four of the 38 candidates who had taken the exam passed. Were the other candidates close to being successful? Could the success rate be increased if those people were given more training?What are the criteria that explain why the success rate is so low? In June, just under 90% of candidates failed the exam. Hopefully, the next exam will have a higher success rate.I'm not saying that the quality should be reduced. The quality must be maintained, but other measures could sometimes enhance the potential of certain candidates.What solutions could be put in place to solve the current problems and increase the success rate?Labour forceDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1125)[Translation]Thank you for the question. I'll answer first, then I'll let Mr. Ball add his comments.Of course, we're working closely with the candidates who have almost passed the exam. When we see they have the necessary skills to become good interpreters at the Translation Bureau, that they have almost passed the exam and that they may the next time, those people will receive training from us.We also give a lot of preparatory workshops for our candidates. There was one in October, I believe, and we did the same thing in June. We want to make sure that the candidates are ready. The goal isn't to trick them with an exam. On the contrary, we simply want to make sure that they have the necessary skills to meet the very strict requirements of the House of Commons. We never want to compromise quality. We also have interpreter managers who sit on the committee to ensure that the interpreters meet our criteria.Mr. Ball, I invite you to add your comments.Labour forcePeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1125)[Translation]Indeed, the number of candidates who pass the exam only paints part of the picture. Before the exams, we give preparatory information sessions for the candidates. It helps them to get the best mark possible and to give their best performance. Assessing the candidates also gives us an opportunity to identify promising candidates with whom we want to continue our efforts. We contact them afterwards. Often, even though these candidates haven't passed the exam, we can hire them as interpreter trainees. It gives us the opportunity to work closely with these candidates who aren't necessarily up to our expectations yet.Of course, we take into account the real working circumstances of interpreters in the Canadian Parliament. We demand the same quality as you demand in your work.So, in addition to people who pass the exam, other things are being done behind the scenes to increase the interpretation capacity and ensure the next generation, which contributes to our efforts to support you.Labour forceDominicLaportePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much. I'm very happy to hear that. We have the best interpreters in the world, and we must maintain this exceptional quality. Training and assistance can also play an important role.My last question is about the remote interpretation pilot project. I would like to know how many interpreters from outside the national capital region participated and whether technical problems were raised and resolved. Out of personal interest, I'd also like to know if any interpreters from British Columbia participated.MatthewBallDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1130)[Translation]If I may, Mr. Chair, I'll ask Mr. Ball to answer that question.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1130)[Translation]I'd be happy to.We have about a dozen interpreters who provide their services outside the facilities on Parliament Hill. As for the B.C. interpreters, I would have to check that information. I don't want to mislead you.Yes, this is a pilot project that we're working on with House administration, and it's well under way. We expect there will be little glitches during implementation, but the work we've done has already allowed us to make improvements and resolve small glitches that have arisen along the way.DominicLaportePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1130)[Translation]Thank you.MatthewBallGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1130)[Translation]You're welcome, Mr. Julian.I'll now give the floor to Mr. Gerretsen.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen (Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1130)[English]Thank you.I am new to BOIE, so I apologize if this has been covered in the past.I listened attentively to the comments you made around the earpieces and the feedback they can cause. I know I've been guilty of that in the House, absolutely, but the problem extends beyond just the individual who's speaking. As you would know, when the microphone turns on, it's usually for two desks. If somebody at one of the other desks happens to leave their microphone in that area, the feedback is going to occur. Sometimes it takes a while to figure it out.My question is more with regard to the technology of it. There must be technology out there, whether through a different style of microphone or something, that would limit that feedback. I think that is a serious hazard to interpretation services. It's something that can seriously affect somebody's hearing if they are subject to that.Does that technology not exist? Has it ever been explored to utilize it in the House?GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1130)[Translation]Mr. Aouididi, the floor is yours to answer that question.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsYassineAouididiYassineAouididiYassine-AouididiInterventionMr. Yassine Aouididi (Senior Digital Product Manager, House of Commons): (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.[English]Through you, Mr. Speaker, thank you very much for the question.My name is Yassine Aouididi. I'm responsible for the audiovisual technologies here at the House of Commons, including these committee rooms and the chamber. Yes, we always explore solutions and try to find solutions with regard to feedback. Feedback occurs naturally when there's an audio source that's exposed to a microphone, such as in this case with this earpiece and this specific microphone. It's not one specific scenario, but multiple scenarios that we're looking at.Specifically about the earpieces right now, there's already some protection that's integrated into these delegate stations. Effectively, every time we turn this microphone on, the volume goes down on this particular earpiece to minimize the risk of this happening. Accidents sometimes happen when we're using.... Sometimes, we have a Surface here and we plug into the wrong delegate station. Some human error aspects can occur that cause these incidents to happen. That's why the promotion and awareness aspects are very important. That's why we have started working collectively with the translation bureau on ways to promote that and explain more the situations in which this can occur.Should it happen, there's still integrated protection downstream for the interpreters through the console that prevents a sudden peak. The volume will be stopped to prevent that from causing ear damage. There are multiple layers of this. There's not just one layer. Also, in the chamber, for example, we replaced the earpieces this summer to make sure that the level of loudness is not as loud so there are fewer chances of peaking. We're trying to tackle it on many fronts.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1135)[English]Thank you.YassineAouididiGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1135)[English]Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, the floor is yours.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1135)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I have a few questions for the Translation Bureau and the team that runs the committees.Mr. Laporte, I really enjoyed your opening remarks. It's good to have some positive news in spite of everything, but I'm still concerned. You've been very transparent in saying that, despite your efforts, the interpreters you recruit don't replace all those who retire. So you're never in surplus. You manage to avoid catastrophe and honour the commitment you made to the House administration to interpret 57 events a week. However, despite your best efforts, more people retire than join your team.In that sense, I know that you will maintain everything you do to recruit interpreters. However, I think it's important to know whether you're going to keep your two annual exams and make them a regular practice. That's what you did this year. However, it only allows you to maintain your commitments, but not to be in surplus. In that context, do you plan to conduct two or three exams during the year to be able to replenish your pool of interpreters a little more quickly?StaffingGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1135)[Translation]Thank you for the question.With respect to the annual exams, the fact that we added this second exam helped a great deal. There may be some candidates who didn't pass our exam in June, but who will pass the one in November. So it's a good practice.The fact remains that the pool of potential candidates is limited. Only two universities have master's programs in conference interpreting. So even if we had more exams, we wouldn't necessarily have more candidates.We are stepping up our efforts, particularly through the recruitment firm I mentioned, to find people who don't necessarily want to work at the Translation Bureau or who may not have wanted to work there in the past. So every effort is made to find other candidates.I would say, though, that our capacity isn't diminishing. It's important to remember that our interpretation services are at the same level as before the pandemic. After all, 15,000 hours of interpretation were provided in the House of Commons. It's important to put things in that context. As a result of all the efforts that have been made, whether in terms of health and safety, recruitment or accreditation exams, we've been able to maintain our capacity. We're aware, however, that MPs would like to have more, and we're working on that, of course.In short, my intention is to maintain two accreditation exams per year. We didn't have a large number of candidates for the exam last summer, because it was the first time, but we may have more candidates next time.StaffingClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1135)[Translation]You're talking about maintaining capacity. However, as you said, since the House of Commons resumed sitting this week, a number of parliamentary activities and committee meetings have been cancelled because of a lack of capacity. I'm talking about interpretation capacity, but it may also be a matter of the availability of rooms. The idea is to increase our capacity.You're good, you're maintaining your capacity, which means you're not dropping below the threshold you've committed to. However, I think you have to recruit in order to be able to provide what we need to work. We don't have what we need right now. However, I must be assured that you're working on increasing the number of active interpreters to support all our work.For example, today, because the Board of Internal Economy is sitting, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs isn't sitting. I find that completely unacceptable. It may suit some people, but I find it unacceptable.I have some expectations about the remote interpretation pilot project. On that point, I'm not sure I fully understand. The Translation Bureau has committed to supporting 57 events. As I understand it, the pilot project will add two more per day, bringing the total number of events to 65. Is my reasoning correct? Is it true that, given the capacity for interpretation, as of November 20, parliamentarians will be able to count on 65 events?DominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1135)[Translation]Thank you for the question.In terms of the events, I'll let Mr. McDonald provide details. However, I can talk about the number of hours of interpretation we'll be offering. Currently, we offer 160 hours a week. We're going to add 16 hours with remote simultaneous interpretation. So we're going from 160 hours a week to 176 hours a week. It's more than the status quo. That's still a 10% increase in the number of hours of interpretation offered. As Mr. McDonald mentioned, this will be used to stabilize activities and, I hope, to prevent interruptions or cancellations of committee meetings, as in the examples just mentioned.We're aware of the problems that have arisen. We want to offer our assistance, and we're working closely with the House of Commons administration to carry out this pilot project, which we're still hopeful about, but which is also not a magic bullet. I think this project will allow us to stabilize the number of hours of interpretation that we can offer. It may save us from interruptions, and it may allow us to extend the sittings. However, that service has certain limitations, because the interpreters are outside the national capital region. It doesn't create more interpreters.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1140)[Translation]Mr. Laporte, I have one last question for you. Then I'll go to Mr. McDonald.You wrote to the interpreters to tell them that you had honoured your commitment, following the complaint regarding working conditions and health and safety. The National Research Council of Canada participated in a study, together with experts from around the world. After reviewing the sound system used in the House and conducting all the necessary tests, it was concluded that the House administration was meeting quality standards.I'm very pleased that the House administration achieved such a result. The House administration needed evidence and scientific data to be able to judge what was happening with its equipment.Now that the matter has been resolved, however, I must admit that one thing remains a concern for me. We know that there have been injuries and accidents at work among the interpreters in the Senate. Personally, I'm very familiar with the measures taken by House administration. I salute the work done by Mr. Aubé and Mr. McDonald to improve the health and safety of our interpreters in the House. However, does the Senate also follow the best practices adopted by House administration? When interpreters work with Senate equipment, do they tend to get injured more often? I'm asking the question because we share the same pool of interpreters, if I'm not mistaken.Workplace health and safetyDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1140)[Translation]Thank you for the question.We have the same discipline and rigour in both the House of Commons and the Senate. We have excellent co‑operation with the Senate. Interpretation time during virtual sittings in the Senate has greatly decreased. A lot of progress has been made. Sometimes there are small variations in the implementation of protocols, but the same rigour applies to both places.The director of Parliamentary Affairs and Interpreter Well-Being works with the governance committee that brings together the administration of the House of Commons and the Senate. Everything we do to improve things in the House of Commons, we also do for the Senate, and we get excellent co‑operation from them.Workplace health and safetyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1140)[Translation]I don't know if this question is for you, Mr. Laporte, but is the Senate sound system comparable to ours? Are the two systems of equal quality? Did the tests that were done include the Senate equipment as well?Senate and senatorsDominicLaporteGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1140)[Translation]I'll give Mr. Aouididi the floor to answer that question.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtYassineAouididiYassineAouididiYassine-AouididiInterventionMr. Yassine Aouididi: (1140)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Indeed, the tests that were carried out in the House were also carried out in the Senate. The results apply to both places, since the same systems are used. The House of Commons is a service provider to the Senate, but the Senate is responsible for its own investment plan for modernizing and maintaining its equipment. We provide technical services for committee rooms with the same rigour in the Senate and the House.Senate and senatorsGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1140)[Translation]So we can say that the systems of the Senate and the House of Commons are of equal quality, can't we?Senate and senatorsYassineAouididiYassineAouididiYassineAouididiYassine-AouididiInterventionMr. Yassine Aouididi: (1140)[Translation]Yes.Senate and senatorsClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1140)[Translation]Okay, perfect.Thank you very much, Mr. Laporte.Mr. Chair, if I may, I would like to ask Mr. McDonald a couple of questions.My first question is about the pilot project. How is your team going to manage these two extra events a day? For example, if a committee wants to extend a meeting, how will you determine whether there are sufficient resources? How will you decide?Labour forceTranslation and interpretation servicesYassineAouididiIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1140)[Translation]It's always up to the whips to decide on priorities for the use of resources, including interpretation resources.What we're proposing is that the interpreters working remotely be assigned to specific committees, at least until the House rises for the Christmas period, and that we start to assess how we can maximize the use of resources after the holidays.As I mentioned earlier, if interpreters working remotely are always assigned to the same committees, they'll be more comfortable, and the content of the meetings will be more familiar to them. It will also be easier for committee members to get used to this process for the next six weeks and probably for the next four weeks after Parliament resumes. That will help maintain those resources.If there are requests to add meetings or extend meetings, we'll use the interpreters who are there and who can help with those meetings. It's really for the meetings that are going to—Labour forceTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1145)[Translation]Basically, you will have more flexibility and agility. With more resources at your disposal, you will be able to better respond to unforeseen events at Parliament and better manage activities on a day-to-day basis.Labour forceTranslation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1145)[Translation]The idea is to have a little more flexibility to meet the needs that arise every day, whether it be extending or adding a meeting. We'll see if that's still possible, but we'll do what we can to maximize the use of the available resources.Labour forceTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I would like to ask one last question.I looked at the virtual committee dashboard. I know that it requires a lot of work on your part, but it has allowed us to see all the efforts you have made to arrive at the results presented today.We seem to have hit a ceiling, with about 66% of people testifying in person. I think we can still do more to encourage people to attend committee meetings in person. Few parliamentarians sit in on meetings virtually, which is good news. The whips did their job well. We see the same thing in debates in the House of Commons: very few MPs use the videoconference option to speak, which greatly improves things. I think everyone has done their part. However, there is still work to be done, in my opinion, because 66% is not enough. We want in person attendance to be upwards of 70%.Do you still have something in your strategic game plan that we could use to increase the percentage of witnesses appearing in person?IanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1145)[Translation]Committee clerks forward this information to the chair of the committee to which they are assigned, who then sends it to all committee members. Mr. Lemoine and I have already forwarded this information to committee chairs as well.If a committee expresses its preference to hear witnesses in person, the clerk can certainly communicate that to the witnesses. At the end of the day, the Standing Orders dictate that witnesses have the choice of appearing in person or virtually. However, if a committee expresses a desire for witnesses to participate in person, the clerk will indicate that to the witnesses, while informing them that they still have the option of participating remotely.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1145)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Chair, there is a subject that I do not necessarily want to debate today, since it is not on the agenda, but since Mr. Laporte is with us, I am raising the issue.At the Bloc Québécois, we have noticed that the quality of certain documents translated from English into French that we receive in committee sometimes leave something to be desired. I don't know whether those documents came from the Translation Bureau or government departments. It might be interesting for us to get a bit of a briefing on the requests for translation of documents and turnaround times. That could be done at another meeting of the Board of Internal Economy. It may not be possible at the next meeting, but it could be at a future meeting, whether it's between now and when we leave for Christmas or when we come back. This presentation would let us know what the process is for translation requests, what the turnaround times are and whether there are any problems.When we compare translations, we note that there are problems, but we don't know whether it comes from the Translation Bureau or from departments that use Google to translate documents because they lack resources. I don't know whether the Translation Bureau also lacks translation resources.In short, it might be interesting for us to get an overview of that, if you will allow me to make that request.Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1145)[Translation]That's a great suggestion. We'll come back to that at one of the next meetings of the Board of Internal Economy.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1145)[Translation]Thank you very much.I want to say one last thing. Mr. Gerretsen is new to the Board of Internal Economy, but I have been raising the issue surrounding interpreters, the quality of interpretation and resources for four years because it is important to me. I know that some people around the table were a little tired of hearing me talk about it, but I still want to thank the House administration. As a parliamentarian and a member of the Board of Internal Economy, I felt heard. I think the administration has done a good job and has worked very hard to improve the situation. It's not perfect. There are still improvements to be made and rooms that have problems. However, I know that Mr. McDonald's and Mr. Aubé's teams and the Translation Bureau's team have worked hard to collect data and evaluate and improve their performance. They are striving to do better. It's not easy. So I wanted to take the time to thank all those people who have worked hard, while reminding them that there is still work to be done and that we are counting on them to carry on with their efforts.Translation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1150)[Translation]On behalf of Mr. Laporte, Mr. McDonald, Mr. Aubé and the entire House administration team, I thank you for your comments, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.The concerns that are raised here around the table are always taken seriously. That is why these people are working very hard to improve the situation, so that all members can carry out their duties as they should.Thank you very much.[English] I see that there is nothing else to mention on this. I'd like to echo Madame DeBellefeuille's comments and thank the team for coming here and for making this presentation. It was very well received.Why don't we take a minute to trade places and start up on item number four, on the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians. We have two guests with us—Mr. Léo Duguay and Mr. Matt DeCourcey.Welcome to the Board of Internal Economy, Mr. Duguay and Mr. DeCourcey. [Translation]Mr. DeCourcey, you have the floor.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMattDecourcyMattDecourcyMatt-DecourcyInterventionMr. Matt Decourcey (President, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians): (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Before I begin, I would also like to acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.It's an honour to be back here with some of my former colleagues. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.[English]Thanks for having Léo and me here. My name is Matt DeCourcey, for those with whom I didn't have the pleasure of serving. I served as the member of Parliament for Fredericton from 2015 to 2019. I joined the board of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians in early 2021. Just this past June, I assumed the chair of the association.I'm joined today by my friend and colleague—and our president emeritus—Léo Duguay, a former member of Parliament in the Winnipeg area. He has decades of venerable service to Canadians, which he can speak more about after my opening remarks.The third member of our team, who intended to be here today, is our immediate past president Ms. Dorothy Dobbie, a former member of Parliament in the Winnipeg area, as well. She is returning from other activities and is unable to be here, but she was certainly fundamental in helping prepare this presentation and in working with the administration of the clerk's office and of the House of Commons to help us prepare for this exchange today.We don't intend to take too much of your time. We know you're all busy. In many ways, that's the point of why we're here.As you elected parliamentarians carry on your fundamental duties to help move the country forward, ensure legislation is passed in the House of Commons, serve your constituents and tend to your partisan activities, you have at your disposal a roster of over 1,000 living former parliamentarians from across the partisan spectrum who continue to want to engage and serve Canadians, and who are there to support you in the important endeavour of supporting, promoting and safeguarding the institutions of democracy and Parliament in Canada.If I might, I think those two institutions can use all the support, promotion and safeguarding they can get in this day and age.For those who aren't aware, the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians exists because of an act of Parliament passed unanimously by the House of Commons and the Senate in 1996. We exist by statute with a clear mandate to serve the institutions of Parliament and democracy, both in Canada and abroad; to provide non-partisan support to parliamentarians and the government; to foster collegiality among former parliamentarians; and to strengthen and enrich our relationships with senators and members of Parliament. We do that while looking out for the best interests and needs of all former members.Simply put, to fulfill our mandate, we do what we can. We hold outreach and engagement activities that inform members and former members of what's going on in the lives of their colleagues, and we bring them together from time to time. We do what we can to support the transition out of public office for many members of Parliament—a time in their lives that can be fraught with emotional, physical and financial stresses. We try to do our best to support them. We hold activities to support democracy and Parliament, primarily in Canada with young Canadians but also around the world with young and burgeoning democracies.Quite frankly, however, we struggle and fall well short of the value, importance and potential impact we could have to fulfill the statute that asks us to fulfill a certain mandate. We don't have the resources required to properly serve our members and you parliamentarians, so we come to you with a request for a funding increase that we think is reasonable. It has been well thought out and worked on by former members of Parliament from across different party stripes, House administration and members of the clerk's office. There was a lot of thought put into it to identify the best way to meet the shortfall we feel we have and the needs of our members.We have a request that asks for funding to be phased in over four years. This will allow our association to properly fulfill our legislated mandate; create true organizational capacity to support our members; increase our ability to support incoming and exiting members of Parliament; and, most importantly, help us help you safeguard the institutions of democracy and Parliament in Canada and abroad.(1155)[Translation]Thank you very much again.I will now give the floor to Mr. Duguay, who will talk a little about our activities and discussions with our counterparts in the United States and Europe.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay (Past President, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians): (1155)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. DeCourcey.First of all, thank you very much for inviting us here today.To begin, I would like to share an anecdote about the life cycle of parliamentarians. When I was an MP, Greg Fergus was a page. So you see the cycle: he went from page to MP, then to Speaker, and one day he will be a former parliamentarian.As Mr. DeCourcey is fond of saying, I hope that when you become a former parliamentarian, it will be of your own volition. Many MPs become former parliamentarians because the electorate is sometimes cruel.[English] Earlier on, when this presentation was first made, there was a question about what the former members of the United States and Europe do. I wanted to point that out.The Americans are fond of saying that they do not receive money from Congress, and, in fact, that is correct—technically. However, the workaround is simple. When the Bundestag's former members or Bundestag's current members meet with members of Congress in Washington, the organization and support of those activities is carried out by the association of former members, a job that, in Canada, is done by some of our colleagues in the bureaucracy. The other thing that Americans do that we don't do is that Americans have different rules for political contributions, so when the Bundestag meets with members of Congress, corporate entities are invited to attend, and these corporate entities become supporting partners of the association. They pay an annual fee to be supporting members. While it is technically correct that Congress does not give funds directly to the association, they provide considerable sums in an alternative way by hiring the association to perform functions that, in Canada, are bureaucracy functions. The European former members of Parliament have a different structure. Their support provides to the association an executive director, an assistant deputy minister level staff and two other staff as well as all the support that is required for their association. The former members of the European Parliament also administer the pension plan for former members, and there is a source of revenue that goes to them for doing that job. All of this is to point out that the request that we've made to you is not out of line with what sister organizations in the world do, and it isn't designed to create weird and wonderful travel activities for our members. It's designed to do a couple of really simple things. We have members of Parliament who are dis-elected or who retire, and I think the tendency to believe that those who retire have an easy life is not altogether true. We can tell you from years of experience of having picked up our colleagues that the movement from being a high-profile member of Parliament in a public capacity to a person that almost everyone ignores in one day is traumatic for a lot of people. It's not traumatic for everyone, but it's traumatic for a lot of people. That's part one.The second part of what we do is that many of our former members of Parliament are becoming younger and younger. Remember why all of you entered public life. You entered public life to serve the public. Just because you get defeated or move out as a member of Parliament doesn't mean that you've lost that objective. We all want to serve the public who elected us, and we want to continue to serve. The act that Parliament passed in 1996 was designed to permit our association to do that. However, over a period of time, support for us has dwindled—never mind meeting the standards that we've put forth. We're not asking for a free handout. We would simply ask that you endorse the proposal in principle and let us work with the administration to try to figure out how we could best accomplish those things the act requires us to do. Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffInterparliamentary delegationsMattDecourcyGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Duguay and Mr. DeCourcey.Are there any questions or comments?Ms. Findlay, you have the floor.LéoDuguayKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (Chief Opposition Whip): (1200)[English]Thank you. Thank you for being here today.This is a tough time for a lot of Canadians, and I understand the call to service, having won elections and lost elections, and that it is the will of the public at the time. I do understand your comments about wanting to continue to serve. The questions are, at what level, doing what things and how much of that should be supported by public funds? I do note that a year ago, the association was requesting basically double the funding that you are requesting now, but it's still a sevenfold increase in the value of support. I do have questions, because I'm not persuaded that this is the best use of funds. One thing I was wondering about was how the size of the association's membership has changed over the years. Has there been any significant growth over the past decade, for instance? Can you advise me on that?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1200)[English] For the benefit of everybody in this room, Mr. Chair and committee members, I think we realize and are fully aware of the challenges that this institution has to deal with on a daily basis, keeping in mind the challenges that ordinary Canadians face in their daily lives.I think one of the benefits that our association and a potential membership of a thousand living former members offer is a dedicated desire to continue to ensure that this institution, Parliament and the system of government that it sits beneath—democracy—is upheld and that its values are able to be imparted amongst folks in their daily lives.I know that our membership has gone through ebbs and flows. Certainly, during COVID, it was more and more challenging to reach out and ensure the enrolment and retainment of members in the association. I think we sit at just shy of 300 members currently as part of the association. Léo can speak to the historical trajectory of what that has looked like over time, but the fact is that we don't have the capacity to sustain our outreach and our ability to go and seek out potential members, engage them in activities and organize enough meaningful activities for them to feel as though there is import in what we do. We have a board that is committed to ensuring that we increase those opportunities for those 1,000 potential members out there.Léo...?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1205)[English]The membership has ranged as high as 425 in some years. That's what it was before the pandemic. Every time that our membership ebbs and flows, we have organized a volunteer telephone campaign to try to get people to join the membership.I would point out that one of the significant issues is that of the former members of Parliament—and don't hold me to the number—the last number I had was something in the order of 40% of people who serve in Parliament never qualify for a pension. That's a significant number, so the idea that members of Parliament retire from here and live the life of Riley is not really quite true. Many of them have difficulty in reintegrating.I'd just hasten to add one point. I've had the opportunity of meeting with my colleagues in the U.S., former members of Congress, and the European members, and one of the things they have had that we have not had is incredible support from current members. We've had difficulty in getting you to help us out, and it isn't just about the money. It's about you coming to our events to help us out and to help the work that we do. Former Speaker Scheer, of all the people in this room, has the most experience of anyone I can see. He and I attended probably 40 events together over the five years that I was president of the association. If you ask, why five years? There isn't exactly a competition for these jobs. Most members are happy to let somebody else do it, as I think, frankly, speaking to you, you are also happy to let somebody else do it.I hasten to add that our bureaucracy does incredibly good work for members of Parliament. The line, though, gets stopped when we say that your work and their work is about members of Parliament—not former members of Parliament, which is what we do.There is an incredible job in reintegrating. I can tell you there are at least 15 or 20 former members whom we have picked up off the ground. Some of you here will know that Mark Holland, I think, made an example some time ago. We have cases of attempted suicide. We have cases of depression. The system that you have in place right now for members of Parliament stops pretty well after you become an ex-member.I just want to remind you that this is not a demand of give us the money and we will go away. What we're saying here is that these are the things that we think we can do. We think they're worthwhile doing, and our request to you is to let us work with the department and come up with a refined plan. When we submitted this to you a year ago, it was just a draft. My impression was that we would work with your staff, that you would say for us go work with the staff and refine it. We've worked with staff now and have refined it, and it needs some more refining.This is not a request of give us the money and we'll go away. It's saying, here are things we want to do and here are things we can do. Help us do those things, and we'll work with your staff and come back with a fixed, hard-line budget, which this is not.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffMattDeCourceyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1205)[English] Thank you for that answer. I certainly understand some of the problems of reintegration, to use your word, when parliamentarians find themselves out of office. I understand the idea of collegiality among former parliamentarians, but it's a lot of money that's being asked for. Do you have the intention to revive your fundraising efforts, which I believe the pandemic put on hold? How much were you able to raise annually prior to the pandemic? Do you have any plans in that regard?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1210)[English]For a period of about 10 years, I was responsible for almost all of the fundraising efforts. We were able to raise over a 10-year period something of the order of $1.5 million gross. We used that money to fund our association as best we could. The pandemic brought this to an absolute halt, and a number of other things have conspired to make all fundraising on a volunteer basis difficult. We had a process whereby we held an annual dinner here in Ottawa. Some of you actually have attended that. It's becoming harder and harder to have corporations grant you money for purposes that they're not sure about. We're quite prepared to do that. As a matter of fact, I'd make you an offer: If you will match this dollar for dollar, we'll go right back to the fundraising. I'm telling you that raising money—I've done it—is very hard work. It's hard to get an association of volunteers together to go beg corporations to contribute money for the objectives we have here. I remind you that these objectives were not our objectives. They were set out in an act of Parliament. Yes, we're prepared to do our part in fundraising, but this would be basic funding from which we could do the rest.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1210)[English]If I might, Ms. Findlay, just to finish off and help respond to that question, I think our association is more than open to partnerships with a range of different civic-minded groups. I know that this board has had other organizations that come to them seeking funding. We'd be more than happy to partner with them. That would be point one.Point two on that same train of thought is that we have a legislated mandate. We exist by an act of Parliament, which I think differentiates us from some of those other organizations to come. If we had the funding, we would be more than willing to work with civic literacy organizations, parliamentary interns, teachers associations. That's at the core of our mandate, and that's work we want to do more of. Right now, we struggle because we don't have the organizational infrastructure in place to properly run a Parliament-to-campus program. It's gone in fits and starts. We don't have the proper infrastructure in place to help support the fundraising, which brings me to my third point.Some of us are younger parliamentarians who need to go out and work full time in the world and raise families. We can't undertake that sort of fundraising activity, certainly not without the support of a fully functioning office to help backstop us.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffLéoDuguayKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1210)[English]I have just two more.One of the objectives you have laid out here, which I think is a good one, is helping with election monitoring work. It's my understanding that you did, at least at one time, have international development grants to help in that work. I'm just wondering if those grants have been cut off, or if they are ongoing.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffMattDeCourceyLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1210)[English]About 10 or 12 years ago, and don't hold me to the date, CIDA granted us $500,000 for the development of election monitoring internationally through an institute that has now morphed into the Global Democracy Initiative, which I currently chair but it has been dead for about five years. Canada provided all the money. The Europeans provided zero, and the Americans provided zero. The field of election monitoring internationally is very crowded. In Canada, we have a group, which you fund. The name is CANADEM, which the Government of Canada funds. This is the organization Parliament has designated to run election monitoring. We were trying to do some international stuff with our colleagues abroad. It was a wonderful initiative, but it died for lack of funding. It died because we tried to raise money internationally, but the Americans and the Europeans were not very co-operative. The only reason it existed was that the government had granted $500,000 from CIDA.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1210)[English] Ms. Findlay, you have a last question.LéoDuguayKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1210)[English] My last question is on the promotion of democracy. The promotion of parliamentarism is certainly a parliamentary function. We do that as part of our mandate. I'm just trying to understand and struggling a bit with how former parliamentarians would add value with respect to those broad ambitions more than parliamentarians who are doing that on a regular basis.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1215)[English]I'll just add that you don't have time to do the job. You have a full-time job doing a whole bunch of other things. I've lived your life. I didn't have any time left after I did my House of Commons committee work, constituency work, public events. I had very little time to go and do that. We have the time. We have the energy. We have the background, and I would add one other dimension. When you're a sitting member of Parliament, of necessity you have to have a partisan edge. Those of us who are former members are still partisan, but the edge is off. I've done lots of events across Canada, most of them, by the way, at my own expense, with colleagues from other political parties. We're able to bring a view that says, here's why democracy is important and why Parliament is important. It's not important because we opposed you to get elected. That's a piece we don't have anymore that can bring something pretty substantial.My last point is that you do the job, but you don't have time to do that. You still have to get elected. I have the time, and I don't have to get elected—thank God.Voices: Oh, oh!Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1215)[English]Maybe the final thing I'll add there, Mr. Chair, is that in 1996 Parliament unanimously saw fit to provide former parliamentarians with a statutory mandate to go out and enrich the promotion in the support and safeguarding of democracy. I would think that Parliaments ever since, certainly in this day and age, would see the benefit in having folks without that partisan edge, who aren't out seeking to be re-elected, help educate, primarily, young Canadians but also all Canadians and our partners abroad about the importance and benefit of our functioning style of government.Again, I come back to the fact that we have a legislated mandate to do this, and we don't have the funds to fulfill that mandate that exists in statute.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffLéoDuguayGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1215)[English]Thank you, Mr. DeCourcey.We have three other interventions so far on the list. I have Ms. Gould, Mr. Julian and Madame DeBellefeuille.Go ahead, Ms. Gould.MattDeCourceyKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1215)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Speaker, for that.Thanks to our guests for being here and for all the work that they do on behalf of former parliamentarians. I think what I find particularly compelling about what you were saying is the need to support the transition from being a parliamentarian to a former parliamentarian, and certainly the challenges that that come with. I have a couple of questions. In the interest of time I'll try to group them together and maybe come back afterwards.The part of your proposal that I find very interesting is the mentorship program. I'm wondering if you could spend a little bit of time talking about that and why that's important. We do a lot of work to onboard parliamentarians. I fortunately have not yet been in the position of deciding not to...or of not having been re-elected yet. I know that day will come at some point. I understand from former colleagues how big a shift that is. You go from having the resources and the support of the House of Commons to effectively being on your own.I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what you envision in terms of supporting former parliamentarians in that way with the transition back to civilian life, if you will.Then my other question was just with regard to the staff support. Let's say, for example, you were provided, by the House administration, with staff support and perhaps the mentorship program coordinator. Would that provide you enough support to be able to fundraise for the other very laudable objectives that you have?Is there a world in which that is something that would provide that stability for the association and the numerous members you have in order to pursue some of those other objectives?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1220)[English] Thank you for grouping those questions together. Hopefully we can have some brief responses.KarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1220)[English]Thanks very much, Ms. Gould and Mr. Chair.As someone who has gone through the transition out of public office fairly recently, I can attest to the fact that the supports offered by the administration of the House of Commons and of Parliament are first class. We would be advocates of always beefing up those supports that the administrative team offers.What is lacking, and why I feel so fortunate to have been given the call by Léo's colleagues at the time at the Association of Former Parliamentarians, is.... That gave me a place to feel as though I could continue to provide service to Canadians and continue to contribute and, quite frankly, find my way back to collegial engagement like this with you folks.Léo has been part, in the past, of attempts to pair former members who have spent some time out of office with immediately leaving members to help provide them with some guidance, whether it be professional or personal, such as helping them with mental health supports, which would be something that I would see reason to further engage with this committee about—the mental health supports offered to leaving parliamentarians.The second part of your question, Ms. Gould, was about the staff complements and, perhaps, the mentorship as a good start for this organization.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould: (1220)[English]Yes You were talking about the difficulty and the challenge around fundraising without having that staff support. I recognize and thank you, Mr. Duguay, for sharing the pretty incredible fundraising efforts that you were able to do before the pandemic. If that is a source of stability, almost, to enable some of the fundraising for the other activities that you might want to fund....Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1220)[English]Yes. If we had some full-time leadership in our own office, we would be able to take on a whole range of different partnership opportunities, whether they be seeking financial support or engaging in other democracy-building activities with a range of organizations out there.Léo, maybe you could speak a little bit more about how it has worked in the past.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffKarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1220)[English]Fifteen years ago, I undertook running some fundraising dinners. We raised enough money, on an annual basis, to hire an executive director, and the executive director was able to help us with the fundraising. Someone needs to be there in the office to handle all of the administrative things that are involved with booking a hall, arranging speakers and transportation, and all of those kinds of things. It's a little bit like a pyramid. If you give us some support, we can help ourselves.With regard to Ms. Findlay's point that she made a while ago about the sevenfold increase, if you gave us half of that, we would multiply that tenfold. If you give us the support that we are asking for in some form, we could our job a lot better, but without your support, we're stuck in a quandary.It's not everybody who has fundraising experience. I'm getting to the point where I've done a lot of it, and today I'm not as anxious to do all of that work as I was 15 years ago. It's very hard to find people who know that background. I'm willing to train others and help them, but it's just not there.As for the last point on mentorship, we've spent a lot of time trying to talk with people and call them and ask them. Believe it or not, the day they leave office, they are not ready to look for support. You will see this one day. You will be in shock. I'm telling you that you will be in shock until you recover. Then you can go ask for help. However, the early period....What we tried to do was to call those people and say, “Hey, I'm one of your former colleagues. I'm here. If you need anything, call me back.” In the course of the years, when people call back, the engagement starts. We're able to help, but we don't really have the support to do things like the mental health component that Matt was talking about.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1220)[English]If we had the infrastructure and the office to keep track of how former members are doing six, 12 or 18 months out, then I think we would see a much greater engagement in the association and much more potential to build our fundraising coffers and to do more work in partnership with other organizations across the country.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffLéoDuguayGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1220)[English]Thank you.Mr. Julian.MattDeCourceyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1220)[English] Thank you very much for your presentation.I found a number of your comments very compelling, particularly with regard to former members. I think Mark Holland going public with what he experienced as an ex-member of Parliament showed tremendous courage, but I also think it exposed what we know privately to be a reality for so many ex-members of Parliament. The very abrupt transition from elected life to being defeated is very hard on anyone. We've all seen and we've all lived through that experience with our colleagues who have been defeated. I find compelling the argument about providing supports in a more structured way for former members of Parliament.I also find compelling your argument about democracy. Our democracy is under threat. We have just gone through a process of putting in place a public inquiry to combat Russian and Chinese foreign interference. There is widespread disinformation. There is spreading hate. These are all very strong warning signs that we can't take our democracy for granted. We saw with our American cousins how close they came to a violent coup d'état. It is not something that we should take lightly at all.I note the figures you have here, and you mentioned, Mr. Duguay, that you are also looking for an agreement in principle around the budget figures. I agree that this is a significant expansion, so that's one thing that makes me hesitate a bit. When you talk about an endorsement “in principle”, is that because you think some of the elements within this proposal would actually be considered as in-kind contributions? You currently receive in-kind contributions of office space and other supports. Is it your intention to not so much meet some of the draft components of this budget as it is to look to the House administration and other sources, so that the financial outlay would actually be much less than some of the figures given here?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1225)[English]When we first drafted this two years ago, it was drafted by volunteers—volunteers without the expertise to lay out some of this. For this iteration, we worked with your staff. Jeremy and his group and Eric and his group were helpful in trying to refine these numbers. I think what we're saying is that these numbers are not precise enough to ask you to give us this budget as it is. What we're saying is this: If you agree that these are the kinds of things we can do, then let's go the next step, work to refine them specifically and come back with a finite, exact budget. I think this one is not exact.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1225)[English]If you look at the budget page, Mr. Julian, there's a note in there somewhere explaining that the first two years have been rather fine-pointed with the support of the clerk's office. The next two years are a bit more notional. We would seek your guidance and your support to perhaps lay out a more precise plan as we move forward, understanding that the first thing we need is a fully functioning office that can help us undertake these activities, and, as we've discussed with other colleagues on the panel here, perhaps look for some partnership opportunities that could seek funding elsewhere.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffLéoDuguayPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1225)[English]Today what you're looking for from us, from the Board of Internal Economy, is a green light to look further at ways in which the association could be supported in its push to support former members and to educate and provide more outreach around protecting and enhancing our democracy and other democracy-building components. We wouldn't be approving any budget today. We would just be giving a green light for further discussions that would ultimately come back to this board.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1225)[English]I think that's a reasonable approach. What we brought you today was after months and months of work amongst our board and with the support of the office here, so we think it's reasonable, but we're also reasonable enough to know that you have other checks and balances that you need to consider. If there was a nod of support in principle that you were interested in supporting our organization further, we'd be more than happy to continue this conversation.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1230)[English] If you were to give us the staff support we need, I think we could go from there.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffMattDeCourceyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1230)[English]I'm sorry. What does that mean? I want to be clear on what we are being asked to do, or asked to look at today.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1230)[English]I'm not sure. Matt may be more on top of this. If we were dead sure of the preciseness of these numbers, we'd be saying please approve them. For instance, in year one of building organizational capacity, staff support of $337,000 is a relatively good number. If you were to start with that, let us build the budget over a protracted period.The problem we have all the time is trying to run this budget structure with a bunch of volunteers. This time, we're much better than we were a year ago, because your staff has helped us out.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1230)[English]Ms. Gould.LéoDuguayKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould: (1230)[English]On that last comment, my understanding was that the numbers in year one and two for each bucket are over a couple of years. That's not for one year—is that correct?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1230)[English] The year one numbers would be the ask in the first year. The year two numbers would be in addition to the year one numbers coming on board in year two. If the initial year one allotment was agreed to in principle, even if there were further discussions that needed to be had about the exact dollar allocation, we would be very much in favour of having those conversations. The year two request for the mentorship program support has also been fine-pointed with members of the administration.Years three and four are more notional. We think they're the types of activities our association should be engaging in, but we understand that, first, we need to have the organizational capacity of staff to help us undertake those initiatives.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffKarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1230)[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, over to you.MattDeCourceyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1230)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Mr. Duguay and Mr. DeCourcey, I sincerely salute your courage in coming to testify before the committee today. Your tenacity shows that you are convinced of the merits of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians. You came here to meet with us today even though you know that at the last meeting of the Board of Internal Economy, we refused to increase the budget of parliamentary associations by more than $400,000 so that sitting parliamentarians could do their work abroad. The current situation is not easy in terms of the economy and setting priorities.I do understand your arguments. I was a former parliamentarian myself. I lost two elections before I was re-elected and returned to parliamentary life. I understand what you have been saying. At the same time, I feel that your mandate is broad and that you are giving yourselves a lot of responsibilities, and that's what I'm questioning. The House administration has completely revamped its approach since 2017. They've hired a lot of human resources staff to support us when we are in office, and also when we leave. When I lost in my riding in 2011, I was able to see a counsellor. The House administration was very helpful. It helped me get through my electoral defeat, something that is never easy for anyone.I am convinced of the importance of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians. Do I believe that the expansion of its mandate is relevant? Personally, when I lost, I sought solace from my former colleagues. I did not call on the association. I think that the camaraderie and friendships that develop in the parliamentary world bring comfort after a defeat and the transition period that follows.However, I agree with you that, thanks to their life experience on the Hill, former parliamentarians can provide assistance when it comes to supervising elections abroad or representing Canada, to bodies such as the Council of Europe. In my opinion, the association is perhaps more of a social club for former parliamentarians.I agree that the association must exist and must have what it takes to do the bare minimum. However, I am not convinced that its mandate should be expanded and that the budget you are asking for is indicated. I think, based on what has been said, you can see where we're going with this. If you came back to ask us for a more realistic budget for a slightly reduced mandate, your chances of getting it might be better. At this point, I'm not convinced.I am being frank here: as a parliamentarian, I don't beat around the bush. I know this is not an easy time for you, when you feel we aren't showing much enthusiasm for your proposal. However, I want you to know that I think the association does play an important role. I just think your mandate needs to be tightened up a little bit and maybe looked at in a different way that would cost less. For example, you could include fundraising activities, as was suggested to you. I don't know how we can help you more. As Mr. Julian was saying, you would have to come back with a tighter proposal. That way, you might have a better chance of getting the Board of Internal Economy's approval.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerMattDecourcyMattDecourcyMatt-DecourcyInterventionMr. Matt Decourcey: (1235)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.I think it's important to emphasize that we're not asking for an expansion of our mandate. Our mandate already exists and is enshrined in the legislation that was passed unanimously by Parliament in 1996. What we are asking for is additional resources so that we can fulfill our mandate as set out in this act.I think Mr. Duguay would like to add some comments.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1235)[Translation]Yes, thank you.Your choice of words is very interesting, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. In Quebec, the provincial association of former parliamentarians calls itself an amicale, a club. Its role is more social than ours. For our part, we are more of an association that provides services.I am aware that many members' experience will be similar to yours. Many MPs who lose an election are supported by their families and their colleagues, enjoy the high-quality service provided by the House of Commons, and everything works out fine. However, that has not been the case for a number of other former MPs. Everything may have gone well for you, but that is not the case for everyone.As Mr. DeCourcey said, we are not looking to expand our mandate. I mentioned the mandate of the associations in the United States and Europe to illustrate what they were doing. For our part, our association is looking at Canada, especially young Canadians. As was mentioned in a question asked by Ms. Findlay, our overseas activities have been greatly curtailed because of a lack of resources.So the mandate has not been broadened. We're just asking for money to better carry out the few things we do have in our mandate.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffMattDecourcyGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1235)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.Mr. MacKinnon would like to make a quick comment.LéoDuguayStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Chief Parliamentary Whip): (1235)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll be very brief.The whips of three political parties sit on the Board of Internal Economy. I think they know that the literature and research conducted with parliamentarians and former parliamentarians show that adjusting to a more private life following a political career dedicated to public service does indeed entail mental health challenges. We have to deal with it, whether through your association or someone else. If we believe that democracy is worth it, it is in our interest to prioritize such activities. It has become clear that this is an essential function.The research also shows the importance of having a mentorship program so that elected officials know what to expect in their new role. For example, it is important to explain to them how Parliament or a constituency office works or to give them an overview of a typical day in the life of a parliamentarian. In that context, I think that everyone would benefit from the wise counsel of people who have already had this experience.It seems to me that supporting parliamentarians, both when they take office and when they leave Parliament, is part of the basic duties of an association of former parliamentarians. It is also a way for its members to continue to provide a public service. It seems to me that those functions must be supported by some kind of permanent staff.I don't want to comment on the numbers or all of the proposals, but if my colleagues are in agreement, I would ask you to come back to us with a budget that would specifically focus on those two functions. You could also show us that it is possible to raise funds for certain other worthwhile activities that are in your proposal, activities that for the time being, should perhaps not be publicly funded. You should focus on the activities of the association and the creation of a program to support parliamentarians when they take office and when they leave Parliament. I see a certain logic and elegance in that. We would then be grateful to your association for improving those two aspects of public life.That is the proposal I wanted to make, Mr. Chair.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1240)[Translation]I'll make just one comment, very quickly.When elected officials take office and receive assistance from public servants, those public servants are not allowed to talk about the political aspect of the job. One thing that is missing when parliamentarians take office is the opportunity to work with other MPs who could explain to them the political ins and outs of the caucuses and Parliament. The same is true when they leave office: public servants are there to explain how the process works in practical terms, but they do not address the psychological aspect. That is what is missing when parliamentarians arrive and leave. It would be beneficial to provide that support.As we said, there is no shortage of volunteers. They volunteer their time. Where there is a gap is on the organizational side, which is lacking at the moment. If we had those two things, mentorship and organization, we would be okay.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1240)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Duguay.[English] Mr. Scheer, it's over to you.LéoDuguayAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1240)[English] Very briefly, I think you'll probably find a lot of agreement on the aims and the goals. If we were in an environment where there wasn't the economic reality that Canadians are going through.... There are a lot of “nice to haves” in your proposal.You mentioned that the election monitoring space is crowded. When I hear that, my first thought is, “Does it need another player or does it need another entity in that?” To my colleague Mr. MacKinnon's point, is that something we can reshift the focus away from, if it's already well served by other NGOs or other government-supported entities that go and do that around the world, and keep the focus more on some of the other topics that you've mentioned?Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerLéoDuguayLéoDuguayLéo-DuguayInterventionMr. Léo Duguay: (1240)[English] The international field is very crowded. I don't think there's a role for us there. On the Canadian field, there is sometimes a role for having more ex-parliamentarians serve in the election monitoring because, as I've often said in a kind of fun way, I've seen just about every shenanigan that anyone can apply in an election over my career. We're more able to spot shenanigans than the average university professor. It's crowded, and we're not looking for an extra role, but in the case of CANADEM, we might be able to play a better more efficient role. If you were to mandate us to do that, you wouldn't be adding funds, you'd be redirecting funds. Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleMattDeCourceyMattDeCourceyMatt-DeCourceyInterventionMr. Matt DeCourcey: (1240)[English]Mr. Scheer, thanks very much for the comment. If I sense you're trying to position yourself with the comments of Mr. MacKinnon, I would be in favour of our focusing on those key priorities for our association. I know there are a lot of “nice to haves” in the world, but two things that I think are not “nice to haves” are democracy and mental health. I think our organization can play a key role in ensuring that the mental health of exiting parliamentarians is first and foremost in the minds of their colleagues on the outside. I think with the organizational capacity in our office, we could do a darn good job supporting the important work that you do in democracy building both at home and abroad. Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffLéoDuguayGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1240)[English]Colleagues, is there an appetite for what Mr. MacKinnon put on the floor, which is to invite them to refine their proposal on a more focused mandate? I see some heads nodding around the table. Very good. So be it.Mr. Duguay, Mr. DeCourcey, thank you very much for coming. I'll leave you with this. My former boss, who was defeated in an election, told me that he retired for health reasons: His constituents got sick and tired of him. Voices: Oh, oh!Hon. Greg Fergus: Colleagues, we have a little bit of time left for two important items on our agenda, one in public and the other in camera. In public, it's item five. I'm going to turn the mike over to our interim clerk, Mr. Janse.Canadian Association of Former ParliamentariansFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary Affairs StaffMattDeCourceyEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse (Acting Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons): (1245)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. As my colleague set out, maybe I'll just say the following in terms of an introduction to this item. As members know, the board is, of course, the point of intersection between members of Parliament, their parties, and of course the House of Commons administration. For this next submission it's being brought forward by the administration, but it is in response to demands placed upon us by the parties. We fully recognize that it is a substantive business case, but it reflects the substantive change to the manner by which Parliament now operates.[Translation]I will now turn the floor over to my colleagues, who will present our submission. We will then be pleased to answer your questions.Business managementHuman resourcesVirtual ParliamentGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerJeffreyLeBlancJeffreyLeBlancJeffrey-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeffrey LeBlanc (Acting Deputy Clerk, Procedure, House of Commons): (1245)[English]Thank you very much. Stéphan and Paul and I are here this morning to present a business case regarding sustaining the transformation of parliamentary proceedings. As you know, over the past few years, at the request of members, the House administration has transformed its technology and its operations model to expand the ways in which members and Canadians can follow and participate in parliamentary proceedings. Though it was not the only factor, the pandemic was certainly a catalyst for many of those changes. The House had to put in place very quickly a model that would allow us to continue sitting and voting by using technology. A lot of these changes have now become a regular part of working, not just for our proceedings but for all sorts of different kinds of events, which are now conducted with some form at least of video conferencing. The changes are, of course, most pronounced in committees where now the vast majority of our meetings are webcast, which was not always the case, and contain at least some remote participation. As we heard a little earlier in this meeting, increased remote participation has also had an impact on our interpreters, and the House has had to develop new tools and new processes to ensure their health and safety and ensure that all can participate in the language of their choice. To support these new requirements, the House has had to make investments in staffing and technology. These are staff to offer ongoing support and monitoring to ensure cybersecurity, to onboard and test witnesses, and to manage a whole series of new processes. There are also capital costs relating to equipment and licensing. These are additional obligations that did not exist only a few years ago.[Translation]The House of Commons Administration did not request additional funds from the Board of Internal Economy for these activities. During the pandemic, reduced activities caused surpluses. It was also possible to reallocate staff from other projects, which became less and less possible when normal activities resumed.Today's submission does not aim to hire new staff, but rather to maintain the teams we have built up over the past few years and to provide these new services. Procedural Services and Digital Services are currently running a deficit because of the high number of additional employees we have had to hire to support these activities. While the House of Commons Administration tries to be fiscally prudent by reallocating staff and funds where possible, there is nevertheless certainly a risk if we have to continue to rely on surpluses and carryforward funds to pay for activities that have become permanent.[English] I will very quickly deal with the different areas in which all of those changes have been made.[Translation]The four main fields are the House, the voting application, committees and, finally, interpreter health and safety.In the House, of course, the first step to enable MPs to participate remotely was to invest in equipment. We also created support teams to monitor and resolve MPs' technical problems throughout the sitting. Staff also have additional tasks such as coordinating communications for sittings and for votes, responding to MPs' queries and liaising with the technical team. I would also like to point out that we've seen an increase in both average sitting hours and the frequency of late sittings. The ramifications of those increases are multiplied given that more staff is needed to support a session.Regarding electronic voting, we have set up an application that enables MPs to vote from anywhere in Canada. This considerably increased the number of MPs taking part in each vote. In turn, support for the application is necessary, including dedicated cybersecurity resources to ensure the system's integrity, real-time troubleshooting and ongoing, regular maintenance. This also means additional tasks for procedural staff such as preparing and managing information in the application.(1250)[English] The additional expectations are probably most pronounced in committees where, once upon a time, most committee meetings were audio only with a limited number of meetings being televised, mostly in person. If anyone participated by video conference, they had to travel to a studio that was operated by a third party. Today, the reality is that most public meetings are either webcast or broadcast. Almost all meetings have at least some participants participating by video conference, or at least we have to prepare for a circumstance where anybody could participate by video conference and they could do so from just about any location. Even if one were to do away with the hybrid aspects for members of Parliament, it would probably not be feasible to go back to the old model for witnesses. The expectation now for witnesses is that they are able to appear using familiar video conferencing software from their homes or their offices. To ensure adequate sound quality for interpretation, there was a series of extra supports that had to be put in place. The support requirements for witnesses have increased dramatically, including the shipping of headsets, a series of pretests and the ongoing monitoring. There are also challenges in managing the capacity for meetings, which has resulted in longer blocks of committee meetings over the day. That creates additional resource pressures. The costs for video conferencing in committee were, once upon a time, charged to each committee's budget, back when we were using a third party, and that was paid out of the Liaison Committee envelope. That is no longer the case, and those have been absorbed by the House administration. I'll let Stéphan, very briefly, also touch on what we've done in terms of supporting the interpreters. House of Commons administrationNew technologiesStaffingVideoconferencesVirtual ParliamentEricJanseStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Acting Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1250)[English] Thank you, Jeffrey. Mr. Chair, I'd just like to expand on two specific drivers for the submission that had a major impact on the administration's financial resources, our human resources, our technologies and our processes. The first driver we've been talking about is the change to how we have members and witnesses participate in the parliamentary proceedings. As Jeffrey mentioned, if you recall, prepandemic, witnesses had to drive to specific locations, to specific facilities that we had in Canada, and through the interconnectivity of those facilities and the parliamentary infrastructure, people were able to participate in the meetings. As part of the pandemic, that was impossible. We had to change the complete model as to how we could have members and witnesses participate as part of the proceedings, and that had a major impact on how we had to support the participants. We had to introduce, as Jeffrey talked about, new processes and pre-meetings. We now need to have people pretest to ensure that people have standardized equipment before they participate in our meetings. We also have to ship equipment so that they have standardized equipment. We had to introduce quality assurance programs during meetings. We now have dedicated people, who are requested to be here, to ensure that the audio quality is met and that we meet the ISO standards. We also introduced concepts, as we talked about earlier, for post-meetings so that we can provide dashboards on incidents and continuously improve our environment. Talking about resources and the impact that change had on the administration, it used to cost the House administration half a resource to set up a normal meeting prepandemic, as most of the meetings were in audio only. Now, we require three people, from a technical perspective, just to do the pretest and the online quality. You can imagine, based on the number of meetings, the impact it had, from both financial and resource perspectives, on the institution.[Translation]The second major change since the pandemic and the introduction of these new technologies has been the instructions we received under the Canada Labour Code and the Occupational Health and Safety Act. The Translation Bureau received specific instructions to protect the health and safety of all participants at our events. These changes had a direct impact on the number of resources we needed for meetings.We now have to carry out random tests throughout the year to ensure that our equipment complies with ISO standards. We must carry out these tests whenever we make changes to our infrastructure, to ensure we provide a high quality audio signal that won't adversely affect the working environment of MPs and other participants. We now need to establish relationships with audiology centres so they can assess the quality of the audio signal through subjective testing. We have had to put numerous initiatives of this kind in place. We had no choice. We had to be agile to implement them and to keep Parliament running smoothly. All of this has had an impact on our financial resources, our human resources and our processes.I'll now hand over to Mr. St George. He will be able to give you a clearer idea of what this means in financial terms.New technologiesVideoconferencesWorkplace health and safetyJeffreyLeBlancPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Aubé.[English] I'm going to cover four points very quickly. These are financing, forecasting, inflation and carryforward.[Translation]In terms of funding for the activities under this proposal, as Mr. LeBlanc mentioned, they were funded internally and using carryforward funds. Budgetary capacity during this period was attributable to lower operating costs. During the COVID-19 pandemic, the administration's historical surpluses gradually declined from $12.1 million in 2020–21 to $6.9 million in 2022–23.[English]From a forecast perspective, this year, administration alone is forecasting a $610,000 deficit. For this year, we're not seeking additional or supplementary funds for this funding case. We predict that costs will continue to escalate in the future and that administration will find itself in a greater deficit.From an inflation perspective, administration bears about $1 million, which we absorb in terms of non-salary cost inflation annually, and we've been doing so over the last several years. This has been managed through continuous improvement initiatives at the service level.From a carryforward perspective—some will refer to it as the reserve—the purpose of that reserve is essentially to finance projects that will support and enhance member services. One of the strategies of the submission is to protect these funds and seek funding through the mains.Mr. Speaker, I conclude the presentation on behalf of my colleagues and me. We welcome any questions.Government expendituresHouse of Commons administrationStéphanAubéGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1255)[Translation]Ms. Gould, you are first on the list of those wishing to speak. You have the floor. PaulSt GeorgeKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould: (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English]Before I go to this item, I'm conscious of the time, and I'm worried that we won't make it to the final item, which I think is really important.I'm putting it to you, for future meeting management, that maybe we could have time limits on some of the items so we can get to the whole agenda. However, I leave that with you.[Translation]First, I would like to thank you very much for all of the incredible efforts the House administration has made, particularly during the pandemic. You have completely transformed the way we work. This has been an excellent thing for democracy, because it has enabled all members to continue to participate in the work of the House.I also agree with what Mr. Aubé said regarding witnesses. Not only was it beneficial during the pandemic, but from then on, we saw a huge increase in the participation of witnesses at committee meetings. Many more people are able to participate now who would not necessarily have been able to before.Therefore, I take my hat off to you and I thank you for all of this work.[English] My question is really about what Mr. St George was saying, because in terms of the carryforward, we completely support the request for these funds, but would like to see that absorbed by the carryforward given the current context.It would seem to me, based on your comments, that this is actually what the carryforward would be intended for. It's for these unforeseen circumstances that support the work of members. This is exactly the kind of work that would do that. From our perspective, our position would be to say yes, absolutely, you can spend this money. It's important. It's imperative. I don't think there's a desire to go backwards in terms of allowing members to participate virtually.We saw in the first few weeks of the House how COVID spread through Parliament quite rapidly. There were many people who got sick but who were still able to participate virtually in the proceedings. There are a number of other reasons why we want to enable members to continue to participate virtually, but also for witnesses to be able to engage in that process.My proposal would be that we accept this increase in funds and grant that to you, but that it be taken from the carryforward unless there is a time when that cannot be absorbed through the carryforward. We would then invite you to come back, so that we could provide funds in extenuating circumstances. That would be the proposal that I would put on the table.Thank you.Government expendituresHouse of Commons administrationGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1300)[English]I see no other interventions. Is there a general consensus on that perspective proposed by Ms. Gould?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Greg Fergus: Thank you very much.Colleagues, we are up against a time limit, but we do have one more issue, which is important.Do we have time to take a couple of minutes for that, or do you have previous engagements?Mr. Julian.Government expendituresHouse of Commons administrationKarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1300)[English]Mr. Chair, if it's a very important issue, I don't know if we can do it justice.Could it be the first item at the next meeting?GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1300)[English]We'll do this item first at the next in camera meeting, if there's a general agreement.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1300)[English]I agree with that.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1300)[English]Thank you. The meeting is adjourned.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0221st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, October 26, 2023Le jeudi 26 octobre 2023Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTOctober 26, 2023CommitteeNUMBER 022NUMBER 022NUMÉRO 022022261020232023/10/26 11:05:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144GregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1105)[Translation]Ladies and gentlemen, I call the meeting to order.I know one of the members isn't here at the moment, but he'll join us in the next few minutes.[English] Welcome to this meeting of the Board of Internal Economy. I would like to call this meeting order. I understand our deputy speaker Chris d'Entremont is joining us online. He'll be available on the screen at the front of the room. Welcome, all. Thank you for being here today.[Translation]This is my first meeting as Speaker, so I'll ask that you forgive me in advance for mistakes I'm sure to make during this meeting. I'm counting on the good will of everyone at the table.I hope to run this meeting efficiently.[English]I know all of you have the agenda and have had an opportunity to take a look at it and to provide input on it. Before I begin, I would like—although she is not in the room—to eventually welcome Ms. Gould and Mr. Gerretsen, who are our two new members to the Board of Internal Economy.With that, Mr. MacKinnon, I understand you've been designated the spokesperson for the government to replace Mr. Holland. Can you confirm that?Board of Internal Economy MemberBoard of Internal Economy SpokespersonGerretsen, MarkGould, KarinaMacKinnon, StevenStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Chief Government Whip): (1105)[English]I'm pleased to confirm that.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[English]That's the first easy decision. Thank you very much, and thank you for joining. Has everyone taken a look at the minutes from the previous meeting? Are there any corrections or modifications that people would to make? If not, I see Mr. Julian.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1105)[Translation] I have a question about business arising from the previous meeting, but we should start by adopting the minutes of the previous meeting.I'll ask my question after we do that.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Can we adopt the minutes of the previous meeting?It looks like everyone is in agreement.We'll move on to the second item on the agenda, business arising from the previous meeting.Mr. Julian, you have the floor.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1105)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.Welcome to the Board of Internal Economy. I believe Mr. Scheer and I are the longest-serving members here. Mr. Scheer has occupied several positions on this committee throughout his career. I've been here in this corner all along. Regardless, we welcome you and Ms. Gould and Mr. Gerretsen.I think we'll work well together, as always. We'll make a good team.My question was about the minutes of the previous meeting and interpretation resources. During our previous meeting, we asked for additional information from the House Administration about interpretation resources. As we all know, this is a critical issue now that we have virtual Parliament.That information was provided and distributed, and I'd like to know when we'll have a chance to discuss it.If not today, maybe at the next meeting.Translation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1105)[Translation]Thank you for the question, Mr. Julian, and for raising the subject well in advance.We'll be getting more information about this matter. If the committee members want, we can add it to the agenda for the next meeting. At that point, we'll have all the information we need to make an informed decision. Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1105)[Translation] I, too, would like to congratulate you on your election, Mr. Speaker.You can count on my participation. I expect you've noticed, or perhaps you've been told, that I'm a member who's always seeking good solutions for the common good so we can work well together in a non-partisan way. I would therefore like to officially welcome you. As you'll see, we're a good group, and we'll work together to ensure good administration in order to support MPs and their teams and the proper operation of the House.I'm sure you've heard that Mr. Julian and I are very attuned to issues with interpretation. I have some more specific questions to ask you about issues arising from the June 15 minutes about interpretation resources. When we took a break at the end of the last session, the Administration team was getting ready for the pilot project, which was a solution to make up for the shortage of interpreters. The pilot project team practised interpreting regular meetings and administrative meetings. Mr. Speaker, can you tell us if the pilot project will soon be in a position to support interpretation in parliamentary committees?Translation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[Translation]Yes, certainly. I'll ask Ian McDonald to update us on that. Thank you very much, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. Mr. McDonald, you have the floor.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald (Clerk Assistant, Committees and Legislative Services Directorate, House of Commons): (1110)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.To answer Mrs. DeBellefeuille's question, we are in the process of testing and simulating the remote interpretation system. Over the past few weeks, we've been recording meetings while they are being held, behind the scenes, with interpreters working remotely. We then either transmit these recordings to our colleagues in the Translation Bureau, or feed them the live stream.We want to make sure that everything works well and that they're happy with the quality that will be provided. We expect to be ready to test this system in one or two committees, and then integrate it into the interpreting resources over the next few weeks.Translation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1110)[Translation]I'd like Mr. McDonald to confirm something. As far as I can see, there are still slots available to hold meetings or special committee sittings.As whip, I can see that the Monday slots—11 a.m. to 1 p.m., and 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m.—are still available. As for the Tuesday slot, it will now be taken up by the Special Joint Committee on Physician-Assisted Dying. There would also be a slot available on Fridays, from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m.Could Mr. McDonald confirm that this time slot is still available for parliamentary business?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1110)[Translation]This would require confirmation. If there are slots available in the schedule that has been provided to the whips, we can consult with our colleagues to add meetings and ensure that the necessary resources will be provided.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1110)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I'm asking this very specific question because, in some committees, there is talk of holding additional meetings. So, I want to make it clear to the clerks that there are open slots to hold additional meetings.However, I noticed that today, because of this Board of Internal Economy meeting, the Chair of the Standing Committee on International Trade decided not to convene that committee, as the slot had to be used before today or tomorrow. I don't know whether this was the unanimous decision of this committee or a decision of the chair.I would like confirmation that the Clerk of the Standing Committee on International Trade has indeed informed members that there are slots available for this meeting.Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1110)[Translation]I'll ask Mr. McDonald to elaborate on this situation.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1110)[Translation]When there's a Board of Internal Economy meeting, normally it's me or my colleague Scott Lemoine who contacts the whips' offices to pass on the confirmation. In this particular case, I don't know if the Clerk of the Standing Committee on International Trade has initiated any further steps or not, but we had already followed up with the whips' offices.I can inquire and give you more information if I have it.Translation and interpretation servicesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1115)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I have one last question.I assume that, at the November meeting of the Board of Internal Economy, we'll have an updated dashboard, as we're used to getting to inform us of improvements made by the House administration.According to my empirical observation of the situation and what is reported to me, there has been a marked improvement. We are very pleased that more members are participating in person in committees and in the House and that virtual participation is more rare.That's the impression we get from our observations, but I think that will be confirmed for us next month. I also know it's thanks to the joint efforts of the whips, the MPs, but also the House administration.When things are going well, it's worth pointing out. We're quite happy with the way the start of the session went.Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1115)[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I'm delighted to hear that.On the administration side, we're certainly doing all that we can. I'd also like to thank you and your peers from all political parties for your work in good faith, attitude and cooperation in improving the situation and ensuring that all MPs have access to all the resources of the House of Commons to do their job properly.If there are no further questions or comments on business arising from the previous meeting, we will move on to the third item on the agenda.I invite Mr. d'Entremont to speak to us about this file.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont (Chair, Working Group on the LTVP and the Centre Block Rehabilitation, House of Commons): (1115)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I have three presentations to make today.The first is on the long term vision and plan, or LTVP.[English] As chair of the LTVP working group, I am here today to update the board on the progress of the Centre Block rehabilitation program and the working group consultations, and to bring forward recommendations to the BOIE for consideration and approval. The following items were reviewed and discussed by the working group over three meetings and an additional one that was held jointly with the Senate LTVP subcommittee on common elements.Seeing as I am off-site, I do hope there are a number of staff who are sitting at the table as well, so that they can answer some questions as we move along. In terms of an update, the project site work continues well. Public Services and Procurement Canada, PSPC, has confirmed that the overall project health is in line with the planned approved scope, cost and schedule. The value spent to date on the Centre Block rehabilitation, including the Parliament welcome centre, is $680 million of the estimated $4.5 billion to $5 billion, as of September 15, 2023. The targeted time frame for completion of construction still remains between 2030 and 2031.Many members of the House of Commons have had the opportunity to see for themselves by participating in tours of the construction site, in which they have viewed the degree of demolition, protection and progress within the historic Centre Block, as well as the excavation for the new Parliament welcome centre. Feedback from members has been very positive, and there certainly has been appreciation and excitement for the project and the ability for members to be engaged.(1120)[Translation]Currently, the Centre Block demolition and abatement work is 95% completed, targeting completion in January 2024. The exterior masonry conservation work has been completed on the north façade, and the workers have moved to the east façade. Overall, completion of the masonry work for the Centre Block building is approximately 12% completed.The excavation for the Parliament Welcome Centre is nearing completion and has reached the desired depth. So the bottom has been reached. Bore holes are now being drilled for the geothermal system, with approximately 50 of 92 holes already drilled.In parallel, the design development has moved on to the next phase of the plan, targeting submission two package for review later this fall. Based on the latest detailed reviews the working group has been involved in, the following recommendations should help the board make decisions.[English] In recognition of indigenous peoples, members and visitors to Centre Block, it was important to the working group that we take into consideration the very important ceremonies and traditions related to indigeneity that would be occurring in the renovated Centre Block. The current practice allows for smudging and qulliq ceremonies to be carried out anywhere in the Parliament Buildings with proper notice so that systems and personnel can be made ready to accommodate activities.In the newly renovated Centre Block and the new Parliament welcome centre, the recommendation is to continue this practice. The two-phase fire alarm system being planned for the buildings would also facilitate this process. In addition, a proposal for a dedicated space that is purpose-built for smudging and qulliq ceremonies was put forward and advocated for by the Senate. Upon review of several options and a joint discussion with the Senate, the working group agrees that the dedicated space would be a valuable addition to Centre Block. It would be an intimate room designed with indigenous design principles appropriate for its function and significance. We therefore recommend to the BOIE that the dedicated space be approved as an addition to the program and be implemented in the newly created space in the central courtyard, which you will see in the next item. We also ask for endorsement of the overall approach.[Translation]As the board is aware from previous updates, the centre court above the Hall of Honour is to be infilled on three levels. While creating approximately 750 square metres in new floor area, the enclosed light court will also assist in achieving project goals on sustainability and accessibility. The approach for the sixth floor has already been endorsed as a shared space for parliamentarians, and further work was required to make a recommendation for the remainder of the space.Options for the function and allocation of the new space on the fourth and fifth floors of the infill have been reviewed by the working group, as well as discussed jointly with the Senate LTVP Sub-Committee.Numerous options were considered with the common goal of finding the best and most flexible use to support parliamentarians in their future workplace. We have come to an agreement with a joint recommendation for the board’s consideration. We are proposing to fully share both levels and to make the new flexible workspace available to all parliamentarians.We are also proposing that the fourth floor infill be reserved as a dedicated space for smudging and qulliq activities. Since it is a new infill, it could be used as a starting point and be designed specifically to host indigenous ceremonies and gatherings. Both the Senate sub-committee and our working group are excited to recommend adding this new space in Centre Block for parliamentarians' use. [English] The gallery seating proposal was approved by the board in March 2020. With the approval, it was acknowledged that there has been a significant reduction in the overall number of gallery seats to accommodate accessibility improvements, and the BOIE asked that the project team pursue alternate viewing options for visitors.Since then, we are happy to report that a very good proposal has been presented. It is a phased approach and introduces some bench seating in the gallery, which allows for the seating capacity to increase significantly. When the Centre Block reopens, it would have most of the north and south galleries with benching. This would increase the gallery seating capacity from the original renovated option of 296 individual seats to a range of 424 to 431 with benches. If further capacity is found to be necessary, the east and west gallery seating could be converted to benches at that time and would allow for up to 455 seats in total, of which we could accommodate up to 24 accessible spaces.Just so you know, preclosure, the Centre Block gallery seated 538, and West Block currently sits about 334. We'll find this to be an excellent improvement in capacity and accessibility, and we recommend the proposed approach for approval by the board. (1125)[Translation]In the development of the layouts for Centre Block, the working group has reviewed detailed proposals for the number, location and dimensions of the leadership suites and parliamentarian office units. The offices are distributed over the six floors of Centre Block with leadership suites located in similar areas as in Centre Block pre-closure where possible. New locations have been proposed based on thorough consultations held in late 2022 with each official party's whip, to ensure the most functional options for their party's working style, and with the working group, for the overall approach. The current proposal has done a good job at reconciling everyone's preferences so far. The proposed allocations are shown on slides eight to 13. It is proposed that the remainder of offices be attributed as general parliamentarian office units or ministerial suites and allocated as required in a similar manner to pre-closure closer to the Centre Block reopening.The average size of a parliamentary office unit in this proposal is slightly smaller at 86 square metres than the current board approved standard of 90 square metres. The size of the majority of offices is within a 15% variance. The variance results from the historic condition of the building and trying to maximize the number of offices that can return to the new Centre Block.The total number of parliamentary office units returning to Centre Block will be 50, including the leadership offices and the Speaker's office. This is approximately 20 less parliamentary office units than prior to Centre Block being closed mostly owing to building upgrades and code compliance, larger two-storey lobbies, and standardization of the parliamentary office unit sizes.The parliamentary office units will have two entry points, one in the reception and one in the MP's office. Work is being done to look at more details of the individual office units with respect to acoustics, furniture, accessibility and any requirements that may be needed to support parliamentarians in their workplace. We will return with more information once consultations are completed and work is ready to be presented.At this stage, unless the Board of Internal Economy feels that further consultation or discussion is required today, or through the party leaders' offices, we recommend that the board approve the number, location and dimensions of the leaders' offices and parliamentary office units presented today, so that the design work can progress.There is still some flexibility in the allocation of the distribution, given that it will still be a few years before Centre Block is ready for occupancy.[English] The working group was briefed on the existing processes and practices with respect to arts and artifacts. The authority for these lies with the Speaker and, for common areas of Centre Block, with both Speakers. The Speaker can also choose to delegate to the working group some items for consideration; hence, we would make recommendations to the BOIE in those instances. The following three process maps were presented for everyone’s understanding. There will be many decisions on this project with respect to arts and artifacts, given the heritage nature of this project and the opportunities that will present themselves in the new Parliament welcome centre. The working group was briefed on some of those elements and the complexities involved in the decisions that will be required. The project team will be putting a list of priority elements together and keeping us abreast of the work in this respect. Should the Speaker feel that further consultation is required, we will be available to assist in that capacity and report further to the board.(1130)[Translation]In conclusion, the working group on the Long-Term Vision and Plan has been very engaged in a detailed review of the issues and proposed design for Centre Block and the new Parliament Welcome Centre. We continue to be confident that parliamentarians' requirements have been taken into consideration. We are very pleased with the progress and the opportunity to be involved in this project.The working group anticipates a site visit this fall and will continue to review and consult on the ongoing work. We would expect to be able to provide a design update to the board sometime this winter.Thank you for listening to me. This was a reconvening of the meeting that was supposed to take place this past spring, so it's nice to finally be able to appear before you. I am happy to take questions or elaborate on any of the information provided today.Thank you very much for your attention.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1130)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. d'Entremont, for that very skilful and comprehensive presentation.Some members have questions for you, so let's start with Mr. MacKinnon.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1130)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I congratulate you, since this is the first time you've chaired a meeting of our committee.I would also like to thank Mr. d'Entremont, who is chairing the working group on the long-term vision with a masterful hand. I would also like to acknowledge the presence in the committee of Mr. Wright and Ms. Kulba, who have been working on this project for a long time.Before asking Mr. Wright a question, I'd like to make a few observations.Ad hoc decisions do need to be made, and Mr. d'Entremont has just listed a few. I think the same comment has often been made about the spaces reserved for parliamentarians. When the work on the West Block was planned and carried out, all parliamentarians—and I don't want to speak on behalf of the other parties—were somewhat surprised by the lack of space reserved for parliamentarians. We're determined to avoid making the same mistake with Centre Block. This building contains a number of offices reserved for the House administration. I trust that the administration will find it just as comfortable after Centre Block reopens and will then want to enable as many parliamentarians as possible to take up residence in Centre Block.We have seen the plans for the parliamentary spaces in Centre Block and heard the reasons why there will be fewer spaces reserved for MPs inside Centre Block. We understand the reasons, and I don't think it's worth repeating them today. That said, we're going to keep a very close eye on the use of space and enable as many MPs as possible to have their offices in Centre Block.That's the comment I wanted to make.Now I'd like to ask Mr. d'Entremont or Mr. Wright a question.Could you tell us briefly about the timeline? I'm pleased to note the Auditor General's comments regarding the project and its execution. I'd like to congratulate you, as I know how difficult it is to get a passing grade from the Auditor General. I say well done to the whole team!I'd like to get Mr. Wright's general comments on the progress of the work, on the budgets, obviously, and on the timeline.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1130)[Translation]Mr. d'Entremont, I'll leave it to you to decide whether you want to answer this question or whether Mr. Wright is going to answer it.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I think Mr. Wright is in a much better position to answer that question than I am.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright (Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC)): (1130)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I thank the member for his question.First, we continue to make progress in line with the budget and the basic timeline. This is important.(1135)[English] To add a few details to what Deputy Speaker d'Entremont provided, the excavation for the main Parliament welcome centre is completed. We've now installed well more than half of the geothermal wells at the ground level of the Parliament welcome centre, and that's progressing well.The interior excavation and removal of hazardous material is well over 95% competed. At this point, more than 25 million pounds of asbestos-containing material has been removed from the building.[Translation]Mr. d'Entremont mentioned the progress on the masonry. The north side is complete, and progress is being made on the east side. Work is now starting on the west side. We're on schedule.[English] We're now into the most technically challenging part of the project, really the critical path of the project, which is the excavation underneath the Centre Block so that the Parliament welcome centre and the Centre Block can become one facility. To be able to accomplish that is very challenging, because the Centre Block can really only move about five millimetres during the construction. We have to excavate under that. That includes putting the Centre Block on essentially a base of about 800 piles or stilts. That will allow us to do the base isolation for the seismic retrofit for the building as well. To be able to take away the rock beneath the building, we need to have these piles in place and replace the floor slab at the bottom of the Centre Block. It's very technically challenging, but it's progressing well. Of the 800 piles, we now have over 250 of those installed. The replacement of the level one slab is progressing well. That will allow us to move on to that next stage.I could perhaps indicate a couple of other things. The heritage restoration work has already begun. As you well know, there are about 22,000 heritage assets within the building. They range from single items like the linen ceiling of the House of Commons chamber to the 53 bells in the Peace Tower or the 35,000 marble tiles in the building—a broad range of heritage assets, each with a conservation strategy.The restoration and conservation of the stained glass is progressing very well. Of the 53 bells, 22 are in Holland currently being restored. On the heritage lighting, the restoration of that is proceeding very well, as well as the woodwork. Of what you could call a three-phase project, phase one is essentially complete. Phase two is well under way. Phase three is in the future—that's putting in all the new systems, elevators, mechanical, electrical and the final fit-up. The project is proceeding well, and, as we are here today, decision-making is the key to helping ensure that it continues to proceed well.A voice: [Inaudible—Editor] Mr. Rob Wright: Those are really decisions that the House of Commons takes, at the end of the day, but I can kind of add the colour commentary that lessons learned for the West Block are really being integrated. While it's very true that every one of these projects is a challenge of space and how to allocate that space, I would say that core parliamentary operations are being prioritized in the allocation of space, whether that's providing additional space for the lobbies so that the chamber can function more effectively as more members come online or very much prioritizing offices for members of Parliament in comparison with the administration.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectChrisd'EntremontWest NovaGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1135)[English]Thank you, Mr. Wright and Mr. MacKinnon.Go ahead, Mr. Scheer.RobWrightAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1135)[English]Thanks very much.I want to ask a few questions just for clarification, because this is the first time I've really had the opportunity to see this since I was Speaker at the front end of this. Just so I'm crystal clear about the infill in the Centre Block that we're talking about, the ceiling of the Hall of Honour is not being lowered. You're building on top of what's existing there. We're not going to lose that wonderful vaulted experience.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1140)[English]Thank you very much for the question. It's an important one. As you know well, there are 50 high heritage spaces in the building. Those are being cared for with great attention, I would say, to ensure that the look and feel of these spaces are as they were when members of Parliament left the building at the end of 2018. I will say, though, that in some cases, there have been alterations to the building, and we're going back to its original heritage element. In the Speaker's office, paint was put over some very beautiful original detailing. We're going back to that. Respect for the heritage is a core value of this project, and we're even trying to go back. In this particular instance, there will be zero impact to the Hall of Honour, one of the most important spaces in the building, by putting this addition on top of it. The only change you would see is that, if you're walking on the fourth or upper floors, you would see a not very sightly roofline of the Hall of Honour, with some moss growing on it. That will now be infilled, but from the interior of the building, there will be zero impact.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1140)[English] On some of the diagrams, you can see that there are courtyards internally. Between the Hall of Honour and what would be the exterior wall of the members' lobby on the opposition side, is that going to remain as an open space? Was it ever contemplated to fill that part in too, or to create additional Centre Block office space?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectRobWrightRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1140)[English]Thank you very much for the question.As you pointed out, there are three courtyards in the building. They were previously unused and couldn't even really be accessed. Both the west and the east courtyards will essentially become the roadway for the public to enter into the building. That allows us to avoid taking away parliamentary space for all the elevators, stairwells and code elements that need to come into the building, and we're able to put them in those courtyards that weren't accessed before. The public-facing component of that building is very important, so the public will be able to move in and out of the building without any friction with parliamentary operations.The centre courtyard, which we were talking about, with the infill over the Hall of Honour.... For the east and the west, we of course are putting the glass roofs over those so that they will become interior spaces. For the courtyard infill, we are not putting a glass roof over the central courtyard. It was envisioned. We discussed it. We moved away from that because we had to put a lot more mechanical equipment in the roofline of Centre Block to modernize it. By not putting a glass roof over the central courtyard, it allowed us to have some different approaches with fresh air intake, which allowed us to lower the roof a little. That was very important for getting approvals from the National Capital Commission and for making sure the project was staying on pace. It was not really a significant loss. There were not really going to be additional offices in that space, so it wasn't an additional loss to parliamentary operations.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1140)[English]On the indigenous space, do you have any reference points as to how often those types of ceremonies were held in Centre Block prior to the renovation projects? How many times would we be looking at hosting an event like that?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectRobWrightSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba (Director General, Real Property, House of Commons): (1140)[English] We don't have actual figures, but it happens on a frequent basis. It happens everywhere, whether it be in a member's office or in a committee room. The flexibility is really what we're aiming to keep, to be able to do it everywhere, and then specifically create a purpose-built space for ceremonial-type activities.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1145)[English]The specificity of it is that, if there's smoke from the ceremony, you have considerations from—Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba: (1145)[English]Yes, it's due to the fire alarm systems. The building was going to have a two-phase fire alarm system anyway, but it still requires notification through our security services so that they're prepared should an alarm come on and stuff like that. That ceremonial room will help us be able to do it a little more quickly at times and a little less planned.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1145)[English]Is the thinking that it would be exclusively for that particular purpose, or from your perspective, would it just be built to accommodate it and then it would be up to the two Speakers and the internal use policy to decide what types of events could be held? I'm just thinking of other types of ceremonies that might have....Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba: (1145)[English]Exactly.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1145)[English] I do understand that the board was supposed to have had a meeting and then a subsequent tour, but then the House adjourned last June. A tour was provided for the media, though. There was a Canadian Press report at that time where you outlined many of these changes. I'm just wondering how far down the pipe we are. Is some of this a fait accompli, and you've already made plans to order materials and do scheduling, or is it truly that nothing is going to happen unless the board takes the decision today?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba: (1145)[English]If I may, it is a board decision. We're in design on these interior decisions. As Rob says, the base building is moving along. They're replacing the floor, and we're soon going to have to lock in all the decisions that affect what's called “core and shell”, those base building elements like elevators, washrooms and things like that. We're still in design development, and we're expecting that to still be going on for probably another year. We don't want to make huge changes, but we certainly are here to solicit input and to make sure parliamentarians are satisfied with what's going on.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1145)[English] Thank you, Mr. Scheer.Are there any other questions?Ms. Gould, let me take an opportunity to welcome you as a new member of BOIE.SusanKulbaKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1145)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I'm delighted to be on BOIE. Thank you very much for the presentation, and you have my apologies. I came in a bit late. My question follows a bit on Mr. Scheer's just in terms of the designs. For some of us, it's the first time we're seeing them. Thank you for including them. Obviously, this is something that's really important and that is going to impact generations of parliamentarians to come. I'm just wondering.... I understand that there's going to be a future meeting of the LTVP group. If there's an opportunity for all of us, perhaps, to take these designs away and for the LTVP group to look at this at their next meeting, to perhaps come to the final approval there.... I think that probably some of us would like to spend a bit more time with the designs. Overall, I think there's a really nice vision there, but we just want a little more time to be able to say, “this works” or “this doesn't work”, and to allow that group to look at it. Maybe there's a space where we say that we're in support of the general direction, but give us a bit of time to look at this. Then that group can come back with the final feedback from all of us.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1145)[English]I'll answer that one quickly, and then I don't know if staff will have an answer to it as well.The staff, of course, have been working really hard to put some of these together, and we, as the LTVP, are trying to represent things as best we can for the caucuses we represent. I would say that it would probably be a great opportunity to maybe pull the whips and House leaders together—and maybe some members of the LTVP—to go off and do a bit of a tour of Centre Block and take an opportunity to not only see the design...because seeing a design on a hunk of paper is different from actually standing in the space itself and saying, “Okay, here's what we actually have to work with.” I can put that out. We can try to have a broader meeting at some point, and if we have to do it in chunks, each caucus individually or all caucuses together, maybe we can do that as well. I don't mean caucuses. I just mean the House leaders' and whips' offices. I can offer that out there for sure.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectKarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1150)[English]That's very helpful. I think there's a lot of interest around the table for that.Next is Mr. Julian.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.[English]I offered my welcoming comments to Ms. Gould before she came in. I'm glad you are with us. We've had a refreshing of the BOIE, and this is important. I wanted to compliment the staff on the incredible work that's involved. Particularly, I am impressed by the degree to which the heritage character of Centre Block is being preserved. I know that this has basically forced the removal of all of the heritage tiles, all of the components of the building, and then there is rehabilitation and reconstruction. It's an enormous task, but I am quite confident that at the end it will be a building that Canadians can be proud of as the centre of our democracy.What I'm interested in asking you, Mr. Speaker, and the chair of the LTVP, Mr. d'Entremont, is this: What are the decision points today? It appears from the presentation that there will be a design update that we will be looking at. I certainly agree that we should be going through the building and consulting with the whips, House leaders and caucuses. What are the decision points today, if any, and when would we see a design update brought to the BOIE for discussion and, I'm assuming, approval?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1150)[English]Rob, do you want to grab that one?PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1150)[English] Working with the House of Commons, we could bring a design update at any time you would like to receive an update. We could do that in tandem with a site visit or a formal discussion here in the committee room.On decision-making in particular, I can't emphasize enough the importance of the decision-making. Yes, we are in design, but we are also in construction. The decisions inform the design, which informs the tender packages that go out to construction firms. Although the project continues to track well, we have been taking on some water on the design side and the decision-making. We have a tremendous relationship with the parliamentary partners, with the House and the Senate. Of course, in the Centre Block, decisions have to made in tandem, not just in this House but with the Senate of Canada as well.We've projected for 21 key decisions for this parliamentary session to be able to keep on track. I just want to make sure that nobody leaves here with a different understanding that decision-making can be deferred without any impacts.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectChrisd'EntremontWest NovaGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1150)[English]If I may, Chris and Rob, if I understand you correctly—and please correct me if I'm wrong—I think there are four decision points that we're looking at. There's one we're seeking consensus for, and I think there's probably one that is the subject of the discussion around the table right now. On the fourth, if you look at page 12 of our package, there are the smudging and qulliq practices that we're seeking consensus on. We're seeking consensus on a central courtyard infill. We're also seeking consensus on accessibility, and the one that is more a subject of more discussion around this table is the leadership suites and the POUs. Those are the issues we're having. I know that Mr. Scheer and Madame DeBellefeuille have questions to ask as well.[Translation]Mr. Scheer, you have the floor.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectRobWrightAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1150)[English]I just want to pick up on what my counterpart, the government House leader, said on having a bit of time to digest this and maybe another opportunity to have a site visit. Instead of coming to a decision today, I would love the opportunity to at least inform my caucus that this is where we're at and maybe even walk them through some of this. In my experience, some members have more or less interest in this type of thing than others, and we haven't really had an opportunity to update them. I would suggest, in a good faith way, to maybe defer a formal decision on these recommendations until we have had the opportunity to inform our caucuses. There may be some feedback, and maybe we'll take up Mr. d'Entremont on his offer of a tour or some kind of site visit.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1155)[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I'm going to answer Mr. Scheer's question.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1155)[Translation]Okay. My question isn't related to that. Did you want to respond to Mr. Scheer first?GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1155)[Translation]I would like to answer it.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1155)[Translation]Very well.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1155)[Translation]I'd like us to reach a consensus on Mr. Scheer's comments, as well as those that reflect everyone's interests. Maybe we should postpone that decision.[English]We could put off having a consensus on this until our next meeting. Perhaps we can all engage, and, Chris, your committee could work with the different leaders here with the purpose of trying to get that done before the next meeting and having those internal discussions so that we could, hopefully in the best-case scenario, come back with a consensus decision at our next meeting. That way we could allow the good folks whom our decisions will affect, such as construction and the design decisions.... We won't allow them to take on too much more water.I'm going to get to you in a second just after Madame DeBellefeuille, Karina.Go ahead, Madame DeBellefeuille.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1155)[Translation]Are you asking me if I agree with what you just proposed?Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1155)[Translation]I would like to know if there's a consensus.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1155)[Translation]Are you asking all members?I'm a little confused.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1155)[Translation]Yes, I'm asking all members.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould: (1155)[English] I'm not opposed to that. I was just thinking that if the next LTVP meeting is before the next BOIE meeting, we could essentially give it a mandate and authority to approve it once we've had a chance to look at it, go on the tour and receive feedback. In the interest of not delaying this too long, I don't know what the timing of those two meetings are. If BOIE is meeting first, we can come back to BOIE. As Mr. Scheer was saying, we need a bit of time with the map. The idea of doing a tour is a great idea. I'm comfortable with either of those decisions. In the interest of speed, it's whichever comes first.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1155)[English]I'm informed that the next BOIE meeting is November 9, which might be a little tight. The one following that would be November 23. Perhaps that's the one we can shoot for. Seeing a nodding of heads would be great.Ms. FindlayCentre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectKarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (Chief Opposition Whip): (1155)[English]That is in keeping with what I was going to suggest. It's important that we do this at this table. I don't think a few weeks, even if that sounds like three and a half weeks, are fatal, or it shouldn't be, to design decisions. Generally, most of us want to see a well-functioning workspace. The people who will be in administrative leadership in the years to come need the space to do their work. I don't necessarily agree with my friend, Mr. MacKinnon, that we need to maximize the number of MPs with their offices in Centre Block. You can just walk across the street from many of the offices. I do think that the people who will be tasked with leadership in future Parliaments need the space to do their work, which includes having more space like meeting rooms and boardrooms. That sort of thing does need to be.... I've been over for a tour, but I wasn't given the same access tour as the media received. I was basically only taken into the lobby areas and things like that.This tour that was given to the media in June sounds very extensive. It included all four floors, and presentations were made about the design to the media with which I have some concerns. I don't want it to appear that somehow promises were made, or suggestions were made, before we've had a chance to discuss it. I agree with Mr. Scheer that we need time to discuss it, time to go and take a look, and time to ask questions in the space. I think that's important.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1200)[English]To that point, I'm going to ensure that we're going to be able to offer the tour for members here, and that it will be a very fulsome tour. I think we will be able to do that.[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I ignored you. The floor is yours.Then it will be Mr. Scheer's turn.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]It would be nicer to say that you forgot me rather than ignored me.This is the first time we've had such a lengthy discussion since the committee began its work. I imagine that, as the work progresses, the decisions will become clearer and more meaningful for parliamentarians. What we're discussing today is very healthy. I also agree with what is being proposed.Mr. Chair, I wanted to have some assurance as to the design, about the way the spaces are laid out. I'd like to be reassured about all the precautions that are being taken to ensure that the new Centre Block is accessible to people with reduced mobility, in every respect.We've already seen large new buildings fail to consider important details such as the height of elevator buttons. These details must be taken into account if Centre Block is to be accessible to people with reduced mobility.The washroom spaces must also be adapted to new parents. I'm talking about changing tables. These are details, but I imagine, Mr. Chair, that this is driving the planning and design discussions, and that these details are very much present in the discussions of the team that is putting this in place.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1200)[Translation]I'll ask Mr. d'Entremont to answer that question.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1200)[Translation]A lot of work is being done on the accessibility of the building. There's almost a whole subcommittee working on this. We're seeing more and more children in our assembly, so we need to make sure that washrooms and so on are more accessible and family-friendly.I think Mr. Wright could add a comment on building accessibility.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much for the question.Sustainability and universal accessibility are important elements of the project, and we are working on them with the House of Commons and the Senate, of course. There is also an accessibility advisory committee and another committee that provides design advice using universal accessibility experts.[English] We also have an MOU with the new Accessibility Standards Canada office. We've had the chief accessibility officer of Canada in for a site visit and a number of meetings. We are going through a process to achieve a gold standard from the Rick Hansen association, so I think we are taking this quite seriously both inside and outside the building.The landscape is totally focused on the experience of an individual within the parliamentary precinct being a universal, accessible experience. This goes beyond mobility issues to hearing and sight issues and others. We're working with a broad array of stakeholders in the accessibility advisory committee that we have in place.I'm happy to come and provide more detail on this at any time, of course, but I think we're on a good path.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectChrisd'EntremontWest NovaGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Wright. I would also like to thank all the members for their questions.We have two more people who wish to speak, but since this is the first time since June that we've had a chance to speak to this issue, I would like to say that I appreciate the tone and tenor of this discussion and the questions that have been asked.Mr. Scheer, did you want to ask a question? No? Okay.Ms. Gould, you have the floor.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectRobWrightKarinaGouldHon.Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88715KarinaGouldHon.Karina-GouldBurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GouldKarina_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Karina Gould: (1205)[English]I'm sorry. I just wanted to clarify something on the consensus point.Are we in a position to agree to the first three recommendations?A voice: No.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1205)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Scheer.KarinaGouldHon.BurlingtonAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1205)[English]I'd like to clarify what I was proposing.I know that, for members, there are a couple of intersection points where they may have had opportunities to be aware and to have feedback. However, with the reality of this place, I know we have a lot of people in our caucus who would be hearing this for the first time. We try to avoid presenting a fait accompli if there are decision points to be made. Our preference would be that we hold off on this to give each party a chance to bring members up to speed. Then, when we give the go-ahead, you can go ahead knowing that this box has been ticked.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1205)[Translation]Before I go to Mr. Julian, I want to make sure there's a consensus that by November 23, we're going to try to get some things done. First of all, we need a full visit for the members of the Board of Internal Economy—Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppellePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1205)[Translation]Perhaps you could ask those questions after mine, because I want to ask Mr. d'Entremont, Mr. Wright and Ms. Kulba what the consequences would be of postponing this for about a month. If we come back on November 23, would the fact that the decision isn't made today have any consequences, in your opinion?I wouldn't have a problem with that at all, but if you think it would be a problem, we should know.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1205)[English] Mr. Wright, before you answer, I have Mr. d'Entremont, who has his hand up. Perhaps he has some comments and then, Mr. Wright, I'll have you finish off.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1205)[English]Ultimately, some of these are left over from the spring, so we're working as quickly as we possibly can, knowing that it's hard to get into BOIE over that time.There may be some things here that we can wait on for a couple of weeks. I understand that we do need to get together for an LTVP meeting to talk to the group.I'll let Rob take it on, but some of these things have been left over from spring.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1205)[English]The deputy speaker's exactly right on this. Things are stacking up a bit, so it's about how we work together to deal through this. These decisions are certainly one thing, and I think waiting a month on these decisions is not a big challenge for the project.My broader concern would be that these are a portion of the decisions that really need to be made by the end of this parliamentary session and that have been stacking up. The challenge, I would say, is more how to do that effectively with everybody doing it in an informed way. That is critical.Of the 21 decisions we've envisioned for this parliamentary session, 14 concern Centre Block.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectChrisd'EntremontWest NovaPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1205)[English]I have just a supplementary comment, Mr. Speaker, if I might, to Mr. Wright. The 21 decisions you're seeing need to be made between now and June.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectRobWrightRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1210)[English]It's between now and the end of the parliamentary session in December.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1210)[English]Okay. That's quite a different timeline.It would seem to me, Mr. Speaker, that we really need to get the information about what those decisions are, particularly the ones that are part of BOIE, because if we're meeting on November 23, that could well be our last meeting before December. It appears to me that we need to either accelerate the number of meetings we have or start making decisions.I would prefer that we accelerate and perhaps insert an extra BOIE meeting that allows us to catch up on our decision-making process. I completely agree with Ms. Gould and Mr. Scheer that we need to make these decisions based on fact and consultation, but we have only six sitting weeks until we rise in December. If there are nearly two dozen major decisions that need to be made, the BOIE needs to be seized with them and we need to work through them with alacrity.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectRobWrightGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1210)[English]Before I go back to Mr. d'Entremont, I would like to pretend that I'm so reactive in this chair that we can make this happen. I just want to let members know that three meetings of BOIE are scheduled for before the end of this session: on November 9, November 23 and December 7. I think the fundamental point you're trying to make, the essential point you're trying to make, Mr. Julian, is the right point. We need to have a better understanding of the number of decisions that we need to be making so that, in this period we have now, before we take a tour and consult our caucuses, we can have a fair sense of what we need to do before the Christmas break. That way we can make sure the folks who are doing the construction have the decisions made in time, and we can do that efficiently and cost-efficiently for the general public.We'll go to Mr. d'Entremont first and then Mr. MacKinnon.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1210)[English]I just want to say that over the next week or so, if there's something that the caucuses need to be presented, we'd be more than happy to provide them that. I know Rob and the gang and I would be more than happy to come to the caucuses to make quick presentations on it as well, just to help make this go a little bit faster. Hopefully, amongst the offices, we'll be able to set up another meeting off-site so that we can get some of these things talked about so that we'll all be ready for that meeting in November.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1210)[English]That's very helpful.Mr. MacKinnon, go ahead.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1210)[Translation]Mr. Chair, a fine collaboration has been established, and I give Mr. d'Entremont full credit for his role in chairing of the long-term vision and plan working group.I would simply like to politely remind all my colleagues that the governance of this project is essential to its success. The decisions that all parliamentarians are invited to participate in are also essential to the progress of the project. We like to comment on timelines and budgets, but I remind you that the primary sources of cost overruns or time overruns are non-ad hoc decisions.It's a huge project. This is one of the largest projects in Canadian history involving a heritage building. Our political parties are all represented on the working group. If there needs to be more communication between the representatives of the parties who sit on the task force and those who are here at the Board of Internal Economy, perhaps we should proceed in that way.I remind you that these decisions are not partisan. They were made in the interest of the project, in the interest of this building, which is a symbol of our country's democracy, and in the interest of all parliamentarians.We have also established good co‑operation with our peers, our counterparts in the other place, who are also invited to comment and take part in this project, and all parliamentarians on the task force have developed good relations with their counterparts in the Senate.I just want to say that, as the saying goes:(1215)[English] time is money and time is time.[Translation]These are decisions that the task force made in May.Mr. d'Entremont put it very politely: We cannot make people or projects wait. For example, if you're renovating your house, and a decision is made in May, but you wait until November to have your project approved, there will be additional costs. The same is true for this project.I therefore urge all my colleagues to ensure that this project moves forward and that the task force representatives are able to communicate their decisions freely to all parliamentarians and their colleagues.Centre BlockParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1215)[Translation]Thank you for that reminder, Mr. MacKinnon.In the discussions we've had today, we've all made a public commitment to make sure that we're able to meet the deadline so that we can make the decisions necessary to meet the budgets that are allocated for this monumental project.I see no further questions.I would like to thank Mr. d'Entremont, Mr. Wright and Ms. Kulba, as well as their entire team.We can now move on to the next item on the agenda.[English]We'll move to our Joint Interparliamentary Council report.Mr. d'Entremont, you're back in the hot seat.Centre BlockInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1215)[English] We started talking about a $3-billion project, or a $5-billion or $6-billion project, and now we're going to just a few hundred thousand dollars here.[Translation]As co‑chair of the Joint Interparliamentary Council, or JIC, I am pleased to present the annual report of parliamentary associations on their activities and expenditures for the 2022‑23 fiscal year.With me is Jeremy LeBlanc, the clerk of the council. His team is responsible for producing this report.I would like to give you a general overview of the work of the associations during this period, as described in this report, after which I would be pleased to answer your questions.In March 2022, the JIC lifted the moratorium on hosting foreign delegations and travelling abroad, allowing parliamentarians to attend in‑person events for the first time since the pandemic began.In 2020‑21 and 2021‑22, associations' activities were virtual and therefore there was very little spending on activities.The 2019‑20 fiscal year was an election year so, to properly situate the fiscal year covered by the report before you, it may be more appropriate to make comparisons between last year and the 2018‑19 fiscal year, the most recent year without a pandemic or election.[English] In 2022-23 parliamentary associations undertook 61 travel activities in 31 different countries, and the Canadian Parliament welcomed 26 delegations from abroad. Compared to the 2018-19 fiscal year, we see a reduction of about 25% in the number of travel activities. In addition, the number of participants in these activities is approximately 15% lower compared to 2018-19, although the level of spending is about equal. We can thus see the impact of inflation in the travel sector on associations' level of activity. The total budget for parliamentary associations for 2023 was just over $4.3 million, the same amount as the previous five fiscal years. Over $1.5 million was spent on membership fees for multilateral associations last year. Indeed, we can see an upward trend in contribution expenditures since those of the last year represent an increase of almost $100,000 compared to the previous fiscal year and an increase of approximately $150,000 compared to 2018-19. This variation can be explained by a slight increase in membership fee allocations to Canada, and since invoices are received in foreign countries these expenses may vary based on exchange rate fluctuations.[Translation]Total expenditures related to parliamentary association activities in 2022‑23 represent a budget utilization rate of 88%, leaving a balance of $502,051 at the end of the year. However, it is important to note that part of the envelope, almost $178,000, had been set aside for the planning of international conferences that Canada is hosting. The balance of surplus is largely due to delegates cancelling their participation in activities at the last minute or not obtaining permission to travel.This year, parliamentary associations did not hold annual general meetings, as decided by the JIC, due to difficulties in accessing the resources needed for meetings.(1220)[English]We have seen a significant reduction in the number of virtual and hybrid meetings last year, due to the end of the moratorium. However, virtual activities have continued to be an important part of the work of associations in addition to travel and hosting delegations in Canada, despite current resource constraints that limit virtual or hybrid meetings that could be held simultaneously in the parliamentary precinct, often to the detriment of the associations. Translation is an issue that we'll continue to look at. This is a very brief summary of the activities of the associations, but there is much more detail in the report. I remind you that following the presentation.... Actually I'm going to move right into it because I know we're starting to get pressed for time. I'll take questions after this.I'm also here to seek your approval for a temporary increase of the council's budgetary envelope for the fiscal years 2023-24 and 2024-25. Associations play an important role in international relations and help to advance Canadian views and interests. Parliamentarians can exert a degree of influence over decisions taken in other countries and in multilateral bodies. However, in order to do so effectively, Canada requires adequate representation at activities. Associations have had to reduce the size of the delegation in addition to reducing the number of activities they can undertake within the confines of the existing budget. This directly impacts the number of votes Canada may be allocated at international annual meetings and limits the number of contacts Canadian parliamentarians may have. It also can prevent Canadian delegates from participating in certain committees and, therefore, fully carrying out their mandates. As mentioned a few minutes ago during my presentation of the annual report, the total budgetary envelope for parliamentary associations was just over $4.3 million in 2023, an amount that has not increased since 2017-18. [Translation]In the winter of 2022, a council subcommittee recommended that an analysis be conducted to assess whether the current budgetary envelope was adequate to sustain an appropriate level of activity. The details of this analysis are before you in this submission.The analysis shows that with the same level of funding as the 2018‑19 fiscal year, this past fiscal year, associations participated in 25% fewer travel activities and the number of participants in these activities was approximately 15% lower compared to 2018‑19.Additionally, since then, we have noted a total increase of 12.4% for annual contributions paid by multilateral associations, and we expect these fees will continue to rise. As the contributions are paid by the council's budgetary envelope, this leaves less funding available to distribute for association activities. While we all may wish for these contributions to be lower, it is essential that Canadian delegates be present and active at international meetings in order to influence budgetary decisions and encourage fiscal restraint.[English] Costs per activity have also been steadily increasing with the average cost per activity having increased 18% since 2018-19. This is consistent with the impact of inflation specifically on the cost of travel. The majority of association activity expenses are transportation costs, and we have seen an even higher rate of inflation for air travel at 27.2%.While we continue to maximize opportunities for virtual participation when feasible, there has been a return to in-person activities worldwide, and Canada must play an active role in those activities.The council is seeking a temporary increase to the parliamentary associations' budgetary envelope in the amount of $430,050 for both the 2023-24 and the 2024-25 fiscal years. This would be shared according to the usual thirty-seventy split from the Senate and the House. This is not new funding being sought, but rather it's from within existing budgets in the Senate and the House of Commons.Thank you.Jeremy and I are happy to answer any questions you might have.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1225)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. d'Entremont.I am opening it up for questions. I already have Ms. Findlay and Mr. Scheer on the speaking list. Just signal to me if you would like to speak as well.Ms. Findlay.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1225)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I note that although we're talking about access and about cutbacks on the numbers and delegations, etc., in the last fiscal year, April 2022 through to March 2023, parliamentary association members travelled abroad for events 16 times in the U.S., five in France, four in the United Kingdom, three in Egypt, two in Belgium, two times to Cambodia, two to Greenland, two to Poland, two to Rwanda, two to Tahiti, two to Thailand, once to Albania, Austria, Bahrain, Colombia, Denmark, Ghana, Greece, Japan, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Morocco, Norway, Senegal, Spain and Tunisia. In a world where we, here, as parliamentarians have moved to hybrid Parliaments, we're saying that all that travel is necessary worldwide for parliamentary associations. I, personally, am not inclined to increase the budget for that. Like in any times of constraint, which we are in, I understand there are increased costs, but perhaps the way to deal with it is not to be travelling quite as much or with quite as many. Those are a lot of trips, and when the comment is made that we influence what's happening in those countries and their decisions, I'm not sure that is completely accurate or to what extent an increase of the kind being sought is justified.I don't think travel has really been very constrained through parliamentary associations. Do we really need to have our delegations in smaller locations particularly like Tahiti twice in the same fiscal year? I'm not convinced of that. I better understand things like, leading the way on expenditures, as I understand it, is the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association, where we've had a lot of activity with respect to NATO. We are an important member of NATO. We have a ground war in Europe. Some of those make more sense to me than some of this other travel, so I am not inclined to agree with an increase.Thanks.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1225)[English]If I may answer just a little bit on the virtual side of things. Time zone challenges, when you're dealing with other countries, are difficult. When I participated in APF issues, sometimes we met with people from Vietnam all the way to here, and it was always difficult to find a spot where we could actually participate. Sometimes, that meant early mornings and late nights for many of the delegations who were participating in it. When it comes to where those groups are actually going, we don't make that decision on their behalf. We don't necessarily approve or disapprove it. We give them a budget envelope to deal with. We're just trying to echo back the challenges that we're hearing for those associations as they travel. Of course, there are many members from our different caucuses as well.Jeremy, I don't know if you have another comment on that when it comes to the added costs. When you have 27% more cost in air travel, we are already cutting the number of members who are actually able to participate in some of those things. There has been a fair cut. Yes, they seem to be travelling, but not everybody is getting to participate like they have in the past.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1225)[English] I know you have a supplementary, Ms. Findlay. Perhaps that would be helpful. Then, if Mr. LeBlanc would like to respond, that would be great.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1225)[English]If I could just respond to that, then maybe you could respond.You're speaking to a member of Parliament from British Columbia. I understand about time zones. I deal with them every week. Sometimes I have meetings at three and four in the morning in B.C. to deal with an Ottawa matter. I get that. To me, that is not persuasive.Also, it may be that not as many people are travelling as before, but maybe that needs to be cut back even more, given the realities of our economy.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1230)[English]Sure. Mr. d'Entremont, did you want to go, or Mr. LeBlanc?Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1230)[English]No, I think I'll let Jeremy. I would call him the guru when it comes to putting the budgets together. I trust him immensely on this one.GregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc (Clerk Assistant and Director General, International and Interparliamentary Affairs): (1230)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.It is true that there have been a fair number of association activities that have taken place since the pandemic ended. It is substantially lower than the number of activities that most associations would have undertaken before the pandemic: a cut of about 25%. What that's meant for many of the associations is not being able to fully participate in the activities, especially at multilateral bodies. You mentioned the example of the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association. For that association, the reduced budget has meant they are not able to participate in meetings of certain committees that Canada is a member of. They've had to reduce the size of the delegations they send to those meetings, which means that Canada doesn't have as many votes at the assembly as it might otherwise. That's true of the IPU, the CPA, the CAPF or a number of those other associations.You also mentioned the number of countries and some of the places that have been visited. In many of those cases, those are the spots that are hosting multilateral conferences, as opposed to areas where we're going to have a bilateral visit in that country. There are a number that are bilateral visits. In some cases, though, the site of the meeting is in Rwanda. It's not necessarily a Canada-Rwanda activity, but it's a meeting of the IPU with hundreds of countries that happens to be taking place in Rwanda this year. It may take place somewhere else in the following year.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilChrisd'EntremontWest NovaGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1230)[English]Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.I have three other people on the list so far. I have Mr. Scheer, Mr. Julian and Mr. MacKinnon.JeremyLeBlancAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1230)[English]I wanted to ask a quick question and then make a comment.You said that this requested increase could be funded out of existing House of Commons and, I presume, Senate administration budgets.Have you already identified where those savings could be made?FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1230)[English]I think Jeremy could answer that one as well.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1230)[English]Yes, I think I'm probably best placed to answer. There are funds that are lapsed by both the Senate and House administration each year. There's a portion that's lapsed in the funding for members' office budgets that is not fully utilized, for example. There's also often funding that could be lapsed in the committees envelope, for example, or other envelopes that are available for the administration.Our finance friends could give a more precise example of the amount that's funded each year. Certainly, we're comfortable that the $400,000 that's being sought here could be found within those existing budgets that would otherwise lapse, rather than requesting supplementary funding in order to provide that.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilChrisd'EntremontWest NovaAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1230)[English]When those budgets or those envelopes lapse, is that money essentially returned back to the consolidated revenue fund?Mr. Jeremy LeBlanc: That's right.Hon. Andrew Scheer: So it goes back to taxpayers.For the reasons that my colleague mentioned, I can't support this increase either. I understand the important work that these associations do. I believe in our parliamentary democracy. It gives wide perspective, from all political parties, when these conferences and bilateral visits occur. In the current climate, I just don't believe that we can support this type of increase. I think there are a lot more priorities that the Government of Canada collectively and Parliament collectively have to focus on in terms of findings savings and efficiencies for taxpayers to bring down inflation. We had confirmation from the Governor of the Bank of Canada just yesterday that government spending has an impact on inflation. It helps to drive it up.I think any little thing we can do, any big thing, anything of any shape or size, in whatever scope that we can do, to help ease that pressure should be our focus.I can't support the recommendation.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilJeremyLeBlancGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1230)[English]Thank you, Mr. Scheer.Mr. Julian.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppellePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1230)[English] Thanks, Mr. Chair.I have some difficulty with the recommendation to increase the budgets. I note that we saw with the JIC over the last four years a 74% usage rate of the budget—a 35%, a 34% and an 88%. It seems to me that essentially we're not getting a full use of the existing budget. I think it's fair to say that Canadians are really struggling to make ends meet. They're being gouged when they go to grocery stores or get a fill-up. They're being gouged by the financialization of housing. They're really struggling.I can't see a justification to increase the JIC budget, particularly when the budget over the last four years has not been fully used. It doesn't seem to make sense to increase the budget when the existing usage rate has been so low. I understand we're coming out of the pandemic, but we hopefully as well have had other ways of getting things done.I certainly agree that international meetings can often be very important. I think we need to ensure that we are fully using the existing budget, but I can't support increasing that.I note the proposal talks about a 30% increase, I believe, from the Senate side. I note that the Senate pickup on international travel seems to be often higher—40% to 50%. I note that with some concern about the existing evaluation between the House of Commons spending and the Senate spending on this. I'm not sure that the Senate is spending proportionally to the uptake by senators—who aren't elected but appointed—and the amount of travel that they actually do.I can't support this initiative. I hope that the JIC can look at other ways of ensuring that we are represented, but also at fully using the existing budget that is allocated and that has not been fully used at any point in the last five years.Thank you.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1235)[English]If I may just make a quick comment there, when it comes to the utilization rate it's always been difficult. The way we try to budget for the associations is to give them a premier versement in the beginning and then see who has trips planned or challenges in their budgets for the final part of the year. What's happening really is that, at the end of the year, since they don't know what their budgets are, they can't book in time, and they really can't spend some of the monies that they have sitting in the association. It's been a bit of a challenge. It's kind of the way that we budget.Maybe we could allow them to budget full amounts and hope that they don't go over them, but that's been part of our challenge with JIC—to hold them to the budget that is actually available to them.Senators get to travel a little more than MPs, because of pairing and other issues. If an MP can't go, it opens up a slot for the Senate, so that's a long-standing practice within those associations as well.I don't know if Jeremy has a little more to add to that.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1235)[English] Thank you, Mr. d'Entremont. On the utilization rate, I would point out that two of those years were pandemic years, when there was no travel at all, so of course the utilization rate would have been much lower in those years. It is true that there are challenges in getting that utilization rate up to 100%. In many cases, it has to do either with trips that are cancelled or delegates' participation that's cancelled at the last minute with whips. If each association has two members on a particular delegation whose participation is cancelled at the last minute—that happens from time to time, and that's a reality of a minority government—then they are not spending their full budget, but perhaps there is not enough funding left over for them to undertake a new activity with the $10,000 or $15,000 that may be saved by the cancellation that comes in those sorts of activities. One of the solutions that's been discussed at the JIC in the past is the idea of potentially overallocating the envelope, of taking the $2.7 million that's available for activities and, rather than just apportioning that $2.7 million between the 13 associations, perhaps allocating $3 million among the 13 associations, with the idea that their utilization rate will make it such that the spending in the end might be $2.7 million. It allows associations perhaps a bit more flexibility to be able to fully spend their budgets by taking that approach. It's an approach that has been suggested in the past, one that the Senate, if I'm honest, has not been terribly comfortable with, but that is an avenue that potentially could be explored. It means having some degree of comfort that, if the risk that's taken in that overallocation proves to be riskier and associations go past that allocation—so if we allocate $3 million and they do spend $3 million—then we're over the size of the total envelope. However, if we allocate $3 million and it means that they end up spending $2.65 million of the $2.7 million, then that could be an idea. That's something the JIC can explore. FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilChrisd'EntremontWest NovaGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1240)[English] Thank you very much. We have a final comment from Mr. MacKinnon. JeremyLeBlancStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1240)[Translation]It's clear, Mr. Chair, that there will be no consensus on this point.I'd just like to remind my colleagues that budget constraints are reducing Canada's place in the world, and therefore in NATO, of course, as well as in the African Union and the International Inter-Parliamentary Union, where there is currently a Liberal member, a Conservative member, an NDP member, but unfortunately, no Bloc Québécois member. These trips are always undertaken on a multi-party basis. These people always adopt the philosophy that partisanship ends where the ocean begins and that Canada, although represented in a multi-partisan way, is also represented in a non-partisan way.I regret that, because of a certain vision, the government is willing to sacrifice Canada's representation in those bodies. Indeed, leaving room for others also means leaving it in international bodies and forums. I'm very sorry about that.Obviously, there will be no consensus.Clearly, this is going to hurt the smaller parties in the House of Commons. However, we are going to go along and give in to the committee's views on the budget.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1240)[Translation]So there is dissent. There is no consensus on increasing the budget as proposed at tab 4 of this presentation.However, I believe that there could be a consensus on the reallocation of budgets on an ad hoc, temporary basis, as Mr. d'Entremont proposed at tab 5.As a result, there is no consensus to increase the overall budget.Is there a consensus or not on the second part relating to the reallocation of funds?FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1240)[English]I'm sorry. Do you mind if I just ask for a clarification? I was under the impression that the entire 10% increase was to be funded through reallocations from existing budgets. Is that right?FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1240)[English] Yes, you are right.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1240)[English]Then, it's no.An hon. member: I hear a no.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1240)[English]Where there may be consensus, I don't know, is that the JIC ensure that it uses the budget that's already allocated, that 88% usage rate of last year. If the JIC wants to look at that, it's certainly within its purview.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1240)[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1240)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.You referred to the recommendation on page 3 of the presentation.It contains the wording of the recommendation. In that recommendation, there is no mention of the reallocation of funds. Reading it, I see that it recommends that we accept the temporary increase in the budget envelope. So this isn't a permanent increase, but a temporary increase for the fiscal year ending March 31 and for the next year. It says that 30% of the funding will be allocated to the House administration and that 70% will be allocated to the Senate.Basically, the temporary funding for the other fiscal year will have to be redistributed.What I don't understand is your second question. What I understood from the discussions is that there is no consensus on the recommendation.What exactly are you proposing?FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1245)[Translation]I made a mistake, Mrs. DeBellefeuille, and I apologize.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1245)[Translation]Okay.I'm somewhat sensitive to the discussions I've heard. My colleague from the Conservative Party, for whom I have a great deal of respect, is asking for reductions in delegations abroad in order to reduce fees. Obviously, this implies that the Bloc Québécois and the NDP could be excluded from missions.I want to say that missions currently respect the proportion of the House, which is democratically elected. It's true that delegations are already reduced, while allowing members of the parties to be represented. That said, if there is no consensus, we could continue our discussions on the other elements that I think urgently need to be discussed.We could get back to our current discussion if the Joint Interparliamentary Council made a counter-proposal that we could reach a consensus on.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1245)[Translation]That's an excellent suggestion, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. It's certainly a good way to go.Mr. LeBlanc and Mr. d'Entremont, thank you for your presentation.The sixth item on the agenda is the constituency office leasing model for the British Columbia Legislative Assembly.I invite Mr. St George and his team to make their presentation.British ColumbiaConstituency officesFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilProvincial and territorial legislative assembliesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1245)[English]I was the one who asked for this item, and I am conscious of the time. Were there any decisions made in camera that need to be taken today?British ColumbiaConstituency officesProvincial and territorial legislative assembliesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1245)[English]Thank you for that. Indeed there were decisions that need to be taken today.British ColumbiaConstituency officesProvincial and territorial legislative assembliesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1245)[English]May I suggest, since I was the one who originated the matter...The work is excellent. I want to compliment Mr. St George and his team. May I suggest that we simply receive the document at this point, and potentially come back to it at a future meeting. British ColumbiaConstituency officesProvincial and territorial legislative assembliesGregFergusHon.Hull—AylmerGregFergusHon.Hull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusHon.Greg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Greg Fergus: (1245)[English]Thank you for that suggestion. I see a consensus around the table for that.[Translation]I would like to thank Mr. St George and his team for their work.Colleagues, we will suspend for a few minutes while we go in camera.Again, thank you for your participation, and thank you to the general public [Technical difficulty—Editor].[Proceedings continue in camera]British ColumbiaConstituency officesProvincial and territorial legislative assembliesPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0211st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, June 15, 2023Le jeudi 15 juin 2023Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTJune 15, 2023CommitteeNUMBER 021NUMBER 021NUMÉRO 021021150620232023/06/15 11:05:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Honourable Anthony Rota (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1100)[English]I call this meeting to order.We'll start off with item number 1.[Translation]Those are the minutes of the previous meeting on May 18. Are there any changes?[English]No...? Okay. We will proceed to item 2, business arising from previous meetings.I see nothing. We'll continue. Item number 3 is CPA conference surplus utilization. [Translation]The presenters will be Mr. d'Entremont, co‑chair, Joint Interparliamentary Council; and Jeremy LeBlanc, clerk assistant and director general, International and Interparliamentary Affairs.[English]Mr. d'Entremont, I give you the microphone. Chrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont (Co-Chair, Joint Interparliamentary Council, House of Commons): (1100)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.Colleagues, I am pleased to present this request on behalf of the Joint Interparliamentary Council, which I have the honour of co‑chairing.[English]In August of 2022, the Canadian region of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association hosted an international conference in Halifax. Funding for the conference was provided by the House of Commons and the Senate, as well as by the provinces and territories, in the form of a contribution to the Canadian region.After settling all the expenses related to the conference, a surplus of approximately $343,000 remains, of which half is the federal share. Since the funds were provided as a contribution, any surplus that was left over did not immediately lapse at the end of the year. As a portion of the overall funding was not needed for the purpose for which it was approved in 2022-23 by the board and CPA, these bodies could request that the federal share of the unused funds be returned using the usual formula—70% House of Commons, 30% Senate. If returned, these funds would not be available to be spent in 2023-24, given that they are associated with an expense in a previous fiscal year.[Translation]The JIC, however, is recommending that the board and CIBA approve an approach that would allow the surplus funds to be used as a credit toward the annual contribution of the federal branch to the Canadian region of the CPA and to use the savings generated to finance other association activities.(1105)[English]Given the anticipated annual contribution for the coming years, the surplus conference funds could cover contributions for the next two fiscal years and a portion of the contribution in 2025-26. The savings generated by using the surplus funds as a credit for the annual contribution over the next three fiscal years would remain in the JIC envelope and would therefore be available to finance other association activities. This would represent approximately $75,000 each in 2023-24 and 2024-25, and approximately $20,000 in 2025-26. As we know, our budget is very constrained at most times, and a lot of associations are having trouble meeting the requests that are coming to them.I'd be happy to respond to any questions that you might have on this issue.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English]Are there questions or comments?[Translation]Is all that clear?Okay.[English]Thank you for the presentation. Do we have consent around the table to approve the budget carry-forward for fiscal 2023-24?Mr. Scheer.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilChrisd'EntremontWest NovaAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1105)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I understand that a lot of these associations have robust activities that allow parliamentarians to meet with others from around the world or within Canada that have similar institutions. Having been Speaker and having actually chaired JIC myself, I certainly can appreciate some of the benefits that come from that, but I think we are in an era where we really do have to tackle the cost of living crisis that is fuelled by inflationary deficits, and any dollar that we can return back to the consolidated revenue fund is a dollar that will help alleviate that pressure. Therefore, I would be in favour of allowing these funds to lapse and be returned to the consolidated revenue fund.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English]We don't have consent.Ms. Findlay.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (Chief Opposition Whip): (1105)[English]I have a question. Do all branches have to make the same decision, or could we, for example, decide to return our contribution to the consolidated revenue fund while allowing provincial branches to treat their shares of the surplus as credits if they want to?FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc (Clerk Assistant and Director General, International and Interparliamentary Affairs): (1105)[English]Ultimately, that's a decision that could be made by the Canadian regional council, which is the body that manages the funds for the Canada region, but I don't see any particular problem. The funds were contributed by each of the 13 branches, so the region could abide by the decision that a particular branch has made.If some wish for it to be returned to them, then it could be returned. If others wish for it to be used as a form of credit for their contributions, that could be done as well.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English] What I'm getting is that we don't have consent to go ahead. I'm not seeing consent. Mr. Holland.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilJeremyLeBlancMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1105)[English] I apologize as I was working on something.Can we just go over the nature of the concern about the application?FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1105)[English]My understanding, based on the briefing note, is that if we don't approve the recommendation then the money will just lapse and return to the consolidated revenue fund. When we're looking for places to save money, as your finance minister colleague indicated, government spending is fuelling inflation and I think this would be just about the easiest $172,000 we could ever find to help alleviate that pressure.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1105)[English] I thank you for the clarification. There are two points. The first point is that I would like Mr. d'Entremont to respond about how that money might be used. One of the things I'm concerned with is that this was a success story. This is money not being utilized, being returned, and we're being asked to repurpose it, which would offset future costs. I'm concerned that the message we would send after they diligently worked to keep under budget and to underspend what they had is, “Don't do that again because if you do it then you're just going to have it taken away,” and that would actually encourage overspending. That's my concern. I would just ask what the use of this money would be.Then on the second item, I don't want to get into a debate that spills over into the House, but if it's said I have to take umbrage with it. Canada has the lowest inflation rate, one of the lowest inflation rates in the OECD. We have lower than the G7 average, lower than the G20 average, lower than the United States, lower than the U.K. and lower than Germany. We're not going to fix global inflation by cutting services. I'm totally on board with making sure that we instill a culture where we use money correctly. I just want to make sure, if this money is going to be repurposed and used, that it sends a very positive fiscal message to encourage organizations to underutilize their budgets and then ask to repurpose that money and allow it to stay in the envelope. That may enable them to expand their impact and also encourage the wise and judicious use of their budgets.I'll ask, if I could, Mr. Speaker, for Mr. d'Entremont to respond. FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1110)[English]Yes, absolutely.In the $340,000 that was saved, from a very successful CPA conference in Halifax, the partners funded that into their own bank account. The House of Commons, the Senate and the provinces all put their money into this account, and it's been sitting in that account waiting for all of the bills to finish up. It finished up with $340,000 sitting there.The idea is that we can take our component of that and spend it on CPA dues for the next three fiscal years, $75,000, and that will free up what we can use for other associations, not just the CPA but other associations within our global $4-million budget, approximately $4-million budget. This will maybe allow other associations as they get close to the amount of funding that's available to them—because we try to give them a certain percentage at the beginning of the year and then we give them a second percentage at the end of the year—to find out exactly how the budget is being spent. This would give us a little bit more room. It doesn't give us a ton more room, but it gives a little bit more room to allow some associations to travel, which they've been having trouble doing over the last couple of years anyway because of the cost of travel at this time.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMarkHollandHon.AjaxAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[English]Now we'll go to Mr. Scheer, followed by Mr. Julian and then Ms. Sahota.Mr. Scheer.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1110)[English]I appreciate my colleague's comments and I definitely don't want to import political debates from the chamber into this body, so I will resist the temptation to refute some of that. However, I will just say that anything we can do to help deal with inflation we should be looking for in all aspects of government and parliamentary life.My understanding is that this was an allotment that the board approved. Rather than viewing this as a punishment, yes, it was a success story that the event came in under budget, and I think maybe what we can do is we can write a congratulatory letter from the board to those involved in planning and organizing the committee, maybe even a certificate of appreciation to show that we all appreciate the good work and encourage them to bring that kind of fiscal rigour to future events that the CPA and other associations might host.This will not affect any services provided to Canadians. These associations have been managing with the budgets they have for quite some time and, as I said, I think as members of Parliament from all different political stripes, when we're looking to be responsible stewards of taxpayers' money, this is the easiest $172,000 that we can ever reallocate to the consolidated revenue fund. FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[English] Are there any other questions of comments?Okay. That's very good. We'll go to Mr. Julian, followed by Ms. Sahota.Mr. Julian.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppellePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1110)[English]Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. I've said many times, and I will repeat it, that the Board of Internal Economy is where we leave our party affiliations at the door. I feel very strongly about this. We don't have partisan debates in here. We have to look at the best interests of the institution. I'll repeat that, once we enter that door for this meeting, we're no longer members of any political party or representatives of any particular political affiliation. We are all here as administrators of the House of Commons and our parliamentary democracy.That comment put aside, I wanted to ask Mr. d'Entremont what the dues would be for the Canadian branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association over the next three years. I believe you were saying $75,000 a year, so is it actually $225,000 over the next three years?FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1110)[English]Maybe I'll let Mr. LeBlanc answer that.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyJeremyLeBlancJeremyLeBlancJeremy-LeBlancInterventionMr. Jeremy LeBlanc: (1115)[English]The formula for the Canadian region has a certain amount based on the size of each legislature. The federal portion is half of the contribution, so the amount of dues that the federal Parliament pays to the CPA Canada region this year would be $75,000. Next year it would be approximately $77,000, assuming there's about a 3% increase year over year. The amount that's left over in the conference fund would be sufficient to pay the entirety of the dues in the next two fiscal years, and then the balance of about $20,000 would be a portion of the dues in 2025-26. FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilChrisd'EntremontWest NovaPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1115)[English]I think the recommendation of what the JIC adopted, which was to simply allow.... Those were payments we're making anyhow. I'm a little perplexed about this being a complicated function when we have a surplus that can actually serve to pay what are going to be outstanding accounts that we're going to need to pay anyhow. It just seems to me to be the prudent approach, so I support the recommendation.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilJeremyLeBlancAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[English]Mr. Scheer.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1115)[English]I just want to make sure the point is clear from our perspective. If we were going to reduce the association's budget by the amount we saved, then I would agree with my colleague, Mr. Julian. However, what I understand is going to happen is that, if this recommendation is adopted, the $172,000 will be reallocated through the JIC, however it decides, to pay these dues. Because the associations will not have to pay those dues, that will free up their budgets to spend on other things, so there will not actually be a saving to the taxpayers. It will just be a little bit of a flow-through that will free up spending from some of these other associations.I just want to make that point clear. It's not that we're going to reallocate this to the associations, and the associations are going to save money and send that back to the consolidated revenue fund. It will actually increase and allow them to spend more. That's where our reservation is, and that's why I can't support this recommendation.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[English]We have Ms. Sahota, followed by Mr. Holland.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleRubySahotaBrampton North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88698RubySahotaRuby-SahotaBrampton NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SahotaRuby_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Ruby Sahota (Deputy Government Whip): (1115)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Being a member of JIC as well, I have had the opportunity to sit through many meetings where it's been really challenging to listen to many of the chairs of different associations that have come before us. They're all coming before JIC to ask for incremental, small increases, not major changes to their budgets, but costs have gone up for travel for so many things, as has been mentioned here before.Although I hear Mr. Scheer's point that we want to hold onto that savings, I think eventually we won't be able to hold onto it, and it's better if they have it in their accounts, so that they have to ask us for a little less in the coming times—because we will be asked to contribute more. It gives them some flexibility, and we don't have to be going back and forth.As my colleague, Mr. Holland, has said, we know that attitudes might change, or we might find in the future that associations may try to use all of the money if they think they will be penalized and won't be able to save it for some other use in the future. I think, rather than send them a congratulatory letter, we should congratulate them by having the savings. Hopefully they can continue to use the savings in a responsible way in the coming years, whether it's for dues or other areas, and we won't have to increase our next ask all that much, or the board won't have to approve a very heavily increased ask in the coming days or months. FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[English] We'll go to Mr. Holland and then over to Mr. Scheer again.RubySahotaBrampton NorthMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1115)[English]This is actually a very well-studied area—FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[English]I'm sorry. Mr. d'Entremont. Did you want to respond to Ms. Sahota's comments? MarkHollandHon.AjaxChrisd'EntremontWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/49344Chrisd'EntremontChris-d-EntremontWest NovaConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DentremontChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris d'Entremont: (1115)[English]Yes, just a quick idea is that we just got a request at the board, and it's going to be discussed at our next meeting. To give you an idea, it's a Canada-NATO surplus request, so that they can attend a number of different events over the next year. It was for $150,000. That's just one request we have received in the recent days. Many of the associations that are looking at their calendars and trying to find ways to have Canadian members of Parliament participate in those are well over $100,000 if not more in their requests for the next year to be able to meet their calendars going forward. That's just to give you an idea that the size of the requests we're actually getting at JIC are substantial over the last year or so.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1120)[English]Mr. Holland.Chrisd'EntremontWest NovaMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1120)[English]I think there are a couple of issues at play here. First, what I'm hearing is that there's an attempt to be strategic in the reallocation of dollars to expand impact and to use a savings—FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1120)[English]I'm sorry. I'm going to have to interrupt. I understand the translation is not working. Is it working now?MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1120)[English]Yes, it's better that I speak English to verify that.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1120)[English]I'm sorry, Mr. Holland. Maybe start from the top.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1120)[English]Let's start with the first premise: Do we agree that the work that is being done is important and should be continued?If the answer is no, then that's a different conversation and I think we should be direct about that. If we agree that the work being done is important, then it's a well-founded principle of management that a “use it or lose it” strategy is disastrous. I remember when I was heading Heart and Stroke and having a conversation about a prior leader there—I won't mention who it was—who had a “use it or lose it” strategy. What happened was.... By the way, in every area that this strategy is ever applied, it encourages people to spend. They get close to the year's end of budget, and they say they have to spend it or they're going to lose it. It actually encourages spending more and saving less.The strategy that's the most effective is to see whether you believe in the strategic area of business that is being conducted. If you believe in it, then you trust the people who lead it. If they save the money, they can strategically repurpose it to expand the impact. That not only encourages savings. It encourages innovation and it encourages the repurposing of dollars, which means expanding impact and reducing costs. Now if you don't believe in the area of business, then you should fund it appropriately for how much you believe in it. If you believe it should innovate, change and expand its impact, then you should encourage that by allowing it the opportunity to do so. I think we have to have a direct conversation. Do we believe that the parliamentary exchanges that we engage on are important? Do we believe that it's an area of business that we should continue? If so, I think that when we allocate budgets, if savings are found, we should trust the organization to repurpose it to expand its impact. I think that we should have an honest conversation, though, because if we take a “use it or lose it” approach, as we don't do in our MOB, in our travel status account or in other places, the difference is that we're going to encourage the exact opposite of what we're trying to do. This is a well-demonstrated fact in management. I very strongly support this. There are a lot of areas members from all parties talked about where they'd like to be able to expand impact. I think the fact that they've used these savings and they're trying to repurpose them strategically encourages best practices. If we want to do less of it, then let's just have a straight-up conversation about it and either cut the budget entirely or cut it to whatever proportion you want to.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1120)[English]Are there any comments on that? MarkHollandHon.AjaxAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1120)[English] I want to make sure I'm crystal clear on the original allotment. The original allotment, based on my understanding of the briefing note, was an extra payment. The board allocated funds over and above what the JIC envelope normally receives. Is that correct?I think that's an important point, because it's not as if, at the end of the year, the JIC had extra money left over because of any number of things from prudent management to events being downscaled or cancelled, and then they were going to lose it. This was over and above the original allotment for a very specific purpose that came in under budget.I've already made my larger points and I really do respect my colleague's desire not to turn this into a partisan issue, but I don't think it's a question of not believing in the work or the validity of some of the outcomes of the JIC and its various associations. It's a matter of prioritizing. Yes, absolutely, I believe the priority right now should be trying to find every cent of savings we can find. If we can be trusted on small things, we can be trusted on big things. This might not be a lot of money when it comes to the entire budget of the federal government, but it is a very important signal.If we want to have a discussion on the overall funding envelope of the JIC, I absolutely agree that we should perhaps have that, and there are times in the regular financial cycle when that would be appropriate. This, to me, looks like a backdoor enlargement of the JIC funding.Anyway, I'll end my comments there. I don't feel as though I need to say anything else. I can't support the recommendation.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1125)[English]Are there any further comments or questions?Do we have consent? I don't believe we do.We don't. Okay. Very good. I'm afraid we're going to have to turn it down. Thank you for your presentation. We appreciate it.[Translation]We will now move on to the fourth item on the agenda, interpretation resources.The presenters will be Dominic Laporte, chief executive officer, translation bureau, Public Services and Procurement Canada; and Matthew Ball, vice-president, services to Parliament and interpretation, translation bureau, Public Services and Procurement Canada.[English]Ian McDonald, clerk assistant, committees and legislative services directorate; and Scott Lemoine, principal clerk, committees and legislative services directorate.[Translation]Finally, we have Stéphan Aubé, chief information officer.Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.Mr. Laporte, the floor is yours.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte (Chief Executive Officer, Translation Bureau): (1125)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.As we are gathered in Ottawa, I would first like to acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people. I would also like to acknowledge and thank Cécilia, Dagmar and Claudette, who are interpreting this meeting.I am joined today by Matthew Ball, vice-president of services to Parliament and interpretation. I'd also like to highlight the presence in the audience of Martin Montreuil, our first ever director of parliamentary affairs and interpreter well-being, and Justine Bret, director of interpretation and Canada's chief interpreter.[English]Honourable board members, I'm here to provide an update on the situation with our interpretation services. I know you remain very concerned about it, and I want to assure you we are tirelessly working on improvements.As we have made clear in our previous appearances, the issues related to interpretation are of key importance to our department. Since my arrival in January, I have devoted more time to this than to any other issue at the translation bureau. I'm serious when I say this is our top priority.If the issues persist, it is simply because there is no miracle solution. I have just returned from a meeting at the European Parliament, at which interpretation services are facing very similar difficulties. This situation is not unique to Canada, and here, as elsewhere, there is no easy way to fix things.I'm proud of the efforts the translation bureau has made with its partners. Indeed, over the past six months, we have made more progress than ever, and today it is my pleasure to give you an overview of our accomplishments.As you know, there are two aspects to the issue of interpretation, which are both discrete and closely linked. I will talk first about health and safety, and then I will give an update on capacity.[Translation]As for the protection of interpreters, I want to first thank you, Mr. Speaker, for standing in the House and giving a reminder on headset usage rules. Awareness is still a key ingredient in decreasing the number of incidents. Meeting attendants must be attentive at all times, when they are attending remotely, of course, but also when they are there in person. Indeed, even if in‑person meetings offer the best working conditions for interpreters, we recently had feedback cases most likely caused by in‑person participants who brought their earpieces too close to their microphone. Audio equipment is very sensitive; it needs to be used carefully.As a result, there continue to be incidents. The good news is that these incidents seem to lead to fewer injuries than before. Nevertheless, each incident is a cause for concern. Of course, as is the case for construction workers or peace officers, where it is impossible to eliminate risks, in a similar way, it is unrealistic to think that we can completely eliminate sound-related incidents for interpreters. However, we must continue to focus on preventing them.On this topic, the House administration informed you about the new sound checks that were carried out in April and May. We called on leaders in audiology and acoustics to review the results, report any hazards to interpreters and recommend any measures we should take. We will take advantage of the summer recess to carefully study their recommendations and establish a renewed and detailed action plan in consultation with all key stakeholders.In doing so, we are fulfilling the commitment we made toward the labour program following the instructions we were given in February. We are also establishing the environment of continuous improvement that we need to deal with this situation in the long term, not only because we genuinely care about the well-being of our interpreters, but also because by improving their working conditions, we are decreasing the risk of service disruptions. We are making the profession more attractive to future interpreters and we are ensuring that we have the healthy interpreters we need to meet Parliament's needs.(1130)[English] Talking about capacity now, honourable board members, you can rest assured that meeting your interpretation needs is one of our top priorities. We are fully aware of the difficulties you're facing because of our limited capacity. Still, we are making progress. In 2022–23, our interpreters collectively worked 15,000 hours for the House of Commons, which surpassed our previous peak of 14,000 hours in 2017–18. Unfortunately, given a number of factors, such as the need to expand our teams for the sake of health and safety, or the frequent session extensions, this did not lead to an increase in the number of sessions we could cover. That is why we indicated in our May 17 letter that our capacity for the fall would remain at around 160 hours of interpretation per sitting week, which usually covers House proceedings, 57 committee sessions and three caucus meetings.With regard to remote simultaneous interpretation, we have participated in the pilot project since January 2023, and we will continue to collaborate this fall as the House administration's careful implementation approach unfolds and according to the whips' priorities.Honourable board members, know that we are continuing to do everything we can to increase our capacity.I have already spoken to you about our collaborations with universities to foster the next generation of interpreters. I, myself, have met with Concordia University, McGill University, Université du Québec à Trois‑Rivières and Université de Montréal to encourage them to create interpretation programs in order to increase the number of graduates. We are also seeking the services of a recruitment agency to help us find more interpreters who are willing to join the translation bureau.With regard to our other recruitment path, the accreditation exam, we have decided to hold it twice a year in order to reach as many candidates as possible. The next exam will take place on June 26. We also hold workshops for candidates to help them become accredited.[Translation]Despite all these efforts, it is still impossible for us to predict how much our capacity will increase, even in the short term. We are dealing with a number of uncertainties, including how many people will pass the exam in June, the renewal of our freelance interpreters' open contract and the implementation of the new collective agreement for our staff interpreters.Among other things, duration of work is a core topic in our current discussions with our interpreters. On one hand, exposure time to virtual sound has greatly decreased, but on the other hand, some interpreters still have entirely legitimate concerns about their health and safety.Fortunately, our weekly planning meetings with the administrations of the House of Commons and the Senate make it possible for us to react quickly to fluctuations in our capacity. Once the uncertainty disappears, if the number of interpretation hours that we can provide surpasses the current 160 hours, you can rest assured that this increase will have an immediate impact on the planning of parliamentary sessions and that you will be quickly informed.In closing, honourable members of the Board of Internal Economy, and you as well, colleagues in the House of Commons administration, thank you for your support in our efforts to protect interpreters and ensure the delivery of quality interpretation services to Parliament.Mr. Ball and I will now be happy to take your questions.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1130)[Translation]Mr. Julian has the floor.DominicLaportePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1130)[Translation]Mr. Speaker, I was wondering if we could hear all three presentations before we begin asking our questions because we are going to have a lot of questions. I am wondering whether my colleagues would agree to that.This is an issue that we are concerned about, so I think it would be a good idea to hear Mr. McDonald's and Mr. Aubé's presentations.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1130)[Translation]Does everyone agree? Great.Mr. McDonald, you have the floor.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald (Clerk Assistant, Committees and Legislative Services Directorate, House of Commons): (1130)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Today, we just want to inform the Board of Internal Economy that we have provided it with the most recent dashboard and to point out that this is the first dashboard since the Speaker's statement in early March.Things have improved. There are now fewer interruptions. As for the things that we are monitoring, we have seen improvements in all categories. As per the Board of Internal Economy's request at the last meeting and in the letter it sent to us, we provided the board with more comprehensive information. The other items to note have to do with sound testing.I will turn the time over to Mr. Aubé to tell you more about that.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1130)[Translation]Hello, Mr. Speaker.I want to confirm that, as part of our continuous improvement program with the translation bureau, we have continued to conduct tests on our audio systems. We did tests to confirm that the systems that are being used in committee are ISO compliant, and they are.We also conducted tests with the translation bureau under the labour program. We were asked to conduct tests in real work conditions, where MPs would be meeting. We mainly focused on two locations. First, we tested frequencies. We were asked to confirm that we had all of the frequencies needed for interpretation activities and to show that the audiovisual systems have the capacity to provide the necessary frequencies. That was demonstrated and confirmed.The audiologists also indicated that, given the information provided, they could not determine whether there was a health and safety risk because frequencies alone do not provide sufficient data to draw conclusions in that regard.We also conducted acoustic pressure tests.(1135)[English] We moved forward with some pressure tests with the NRC. The initial reports were submitted yesterday, and they will be submitted to the audiologist over the next.... We will get reports from them over the next couple of weeks to validate whether there is a health and safety risk as it relates to sound pressure. However, I can say the initial data we've seen seems to indicate that we are within the ISO norms, and we will let the audiologist state whether it's a risk from a health and safety perspective.We are continuing to work with them on protocols as they relate to exceptions.Those are basically the tests we've been working on over the last couple of weeks.Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1135)[English]Good.Are there any further presentations before we go to questions?Okay.[Translation]We will start with Mr. Julian.[English]Ms. Findlay and Madame DeBellefeuille will follow.Go ahead, Mr. Julian.StéphanAubéPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1135)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.We appreciate you presenting your reports today.The health and safety of the House of Commons interpreters is vital. The Board of Internal Economy has already ruled on it many times. We definitely want the situation to be safe. Without our interpreters, we do not have a Parliament. I think that we all feel the same way. For that reason, I think that we are going to have a lot of questions today.Before I begin asking my questions, I want to point out the progress that has been made. We haven't reached zero-tolerance yet, but when I look at figure 2 on the dashboard for April and May 2023, we see that the House-approved headsets with microphones were used 99% of the time in April and 98% of the time in May. I think that shows that, even though we have not yet reached the point where there is no chance of an accident, we are making progress, which is a good thing.Mr. Laporte, last year, we got an update on the number of candidates who did the interpretation exam and the number of people who were being trained. I don't think we've gotten an update for several months.Can you tell us about last year? How many candidates did the interpretation exam? How many passed it? How many interpreters were hired and trained? How many interpreters started working for us during that period?Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1135)[Translation]I would be happy to.A total of 71 candidates took the last accreditation test, which was held in November 2022. Of those who passed the exam, 10 were Canadian candidates who were not already Translation Bureau employees, four were foreign candidates and three were Translation Bureau employees who wanted to become accredited. We are very happy about that.We were then able to offer these people freelance contracts because they chose to become freelancers. They did not choose to become salaried employees. We therefore added 10 new freelancers to our team.Those are the results of the November 2022 test. It always takes some time to correct the exam.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[Translation]If I understood you correctly, 71 people took the exam.Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1140)[Translation]Yes, exactly.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[Translation]How many of them passed?Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1140)[Translation]Seventeen people passed.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[Translation]Of those 17 people, 10 were hired as freelancers.Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1140)[Translation]Yes, that's the best information that I have. After doing security clearances and all that, we were able to hire 10 people as freelancers.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[Translation]Have you held another exam since then?Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1140)[Translation]Another exam will be held on June 27.This is the first time that we are administering two exams in the same year. To date, about 40 people have expressed an interest in taking the exam.It's possible that some of them may drop out at the last minute. It is also very difficult to speculate on how many will pass and how many we will be able to hire as a result of the process. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess, but we are nonetheless confident that this measure should help us and bring in new interpreters who can then decide whether to work as freelancers or join our team of salaried employees.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[Translation]Thank you.I know my colleagues also have questions that they want to ask, so I will just ask you one last one and then come back to this later, if necessary.We received a letter from the International Association of Conference Interpreters that spoke about the situation of freelancers. Are those freelancers with more limited availability somehow penalized? If not, are all freelancers, regardless of their availability, welcomed into the Translation Bureau?Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1140)[Translation]I really want to be clear about freelancers. There is no discrimination against freelancers who are available for four hours a day and those who are available for six. We think it is very important to give our contract employees a choice. They can bid on work at varying rates per day.The shortage of interpreters is so critical that we need every resource. I therefore want to reassure all of our freelance interpreters that we need them in Parliament. The demand is there, as we are often told. There will be work for all freelancers.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[Translation]Thank you. I will come back to that later.DominicLaporteAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1140)[English] Now we'll continue with Ms. Findlay.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1140)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a couple of requests and comments as well.Firstly, thank you. You're doing a lot of very good work, so I want to thank you for that. It's difficult. Thank you for providing us with the data showing that at least 70 committee meetings have been cancelled since September. I asked for that and you provided that. I thank you. However, I'm asking, again—ancillary to that—whether you would be able to provide us with similar data for past years, because seeing those cancellations in isolation means I have no way of understanding whether it's an increase or normal. I need data from at least a couple of years back. That would be very helpful. I've also been informed that we have lost 57 hours of committee time since the April break. That is an awful lot of committee time lost. The reason given is resources. I'm concerned about that and I'm concerned about that trend. We are currently debating a proposal to make hybrid Parliament a permanent thing, and that may in fact happen. We all know a lot of our issues with resources have to do with hybrid Parliament. There are good reasons, perhaps, to have some hybrid aspects to our Parliament, but it means we rely ever more heavily on our interpretation resources. I'm interested to know how you see the impact on those resources, should we be in a full hybrid Parliament.Also, you made reference, Monsieur Laporte, to four- and six-hour shifts. I am wondering what percentage of interpreters are continuing to work four-hour shifts? Is there a move to six-hour shifts? If there is a move to that, how is it being received? Would there be a risk of an offsetting reduction in employee retirements or freelancers' availability, in your opinion? We have to understand the actual environment we're working in.My last question is this. How often is the minister briefed? Is she regularly instructed? Is she alive to these issues? It seems to me, particularly with the potential move to a full hybrid Parliament permanently, that this board needs to hear from the minister on these issues. I've raised several things. I'll let you decide who is answering me.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1145)[English]The first one would go to Mr. McDonald, I believe.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1145)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Through you to Ms. Findlay, we would be absolutely pleased to see what we have in our system in terms of data from previous years. We'll provide that to the board.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Laporte, you have the floor.IanMcDonaldDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1145)[English] I'm going to try to address all your questions. Just let me know if I skip some.In terms of the loss of committee time, this is something that we take very seriously, so we appreciate that this is a deficiency that we need to address. I am confident that all the measures we're putting in will be adding to this capacity, but we know that there have been, basically, difficult choices that have needed to be made. For example, when we had committee extensions, it meant that some committees sometimes had to be cancelled or rescheduled, so we appreciate and are very mindful of that. This is one of our top priorities that we want to fix in terms of the requirements of the House.Your next question dealt with whether we should have a hybrid Parliament. The translation bureau provides services to its clients, so it's not necessarily for me—or for the bureau, basically—to provide my view on that. We provide the services in the way they are requested by Parliament, and since the pandemic, we've been providing those on a hybrid basis. We'll continue to provide the services on the basis that Parliament decides.Your next question dealt with six-hour shifts and four-hour shifts. Since the start of the pandemic, our interpreters have been working four-hour shifts. We never went back to six-hour shifts, so we never went back to a full on-site presence. Is there a risk of a sitting reduction? We do have people who are set to retire after a career in the public service. Right now, we anticipate that up to seven interpreters may decide to make that decision this year. Of course, part of the new resources would offset those departures. I would say that we are, nevertheless, cautiously optimistic that, with all the measures that are being taken, we should be able to have a net increase in resources. However, again, there are a lot of unknowns associated with that. It's only when we get the results of, for example, our June exam that we're going to be able to have a true sense of how many additional resources we can add to our pool of interpreters.You did touch also on the minister being briefed. I have to say that she is very well aware of the interpreters' situation. I did have the opportunity to brief the minister myself. She is briefed on a regular basis by our deputy minister. She is paying a lot of attention to that file. As a doctor herself, it is something that is of much importance to her. Those challenges and also the measures we are taking to improve the situation are being brought to her attention on a weekly basis.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1145)[English]As a follow-up, just on these four-hour to six-hour shifts, is there a barrier to returning to at least some people doing six-hour shifts? You're saying that you haven't really entertained that. However, is that not one area where, if someone is available or willing to do six-hour shifts, we could add to our resource pool?Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1145)[English]This is something we're going to be exploring with the next open contract. This is why we want to give the choice to freelancers to be on four-hour days or six-hour days. We'll see what we're going to get. Are we going to get people who are interested in six hours? It depends.I know that we were talking about the audiologist's report and the NRC reports, so the House administration has been working tirelessly with us on that. We also need to make sure that our interpreters are aware of the results, so we don't want to rush things. The last thing I want to do is impose six hours without having proper discussions, without basically being able to talk to our interpreters and let them know all of the measures that have been taken to make sure that, if they were to go back to six hours, it is safe to do that. This is why we anticipate a lot of discussion. We also want to involve the key players—the AIIC and our union—to make sure that they are involved in those discussions.The approach is slightly different between our staff employees and the freelancers.Translation and interpretation servicesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1150)[English]I have just a final comment.We are very concerned that, with a fully hybrid Parliament, we're just not going to have the resources to do our work. So much of our work is done at the committee level by members of Parliament, and it's very important work to move legislation through and to do the studies we're tasked with doing. We know that, with the loss of 57 hours just in this last short while since April, we're not even talking about other parliamentary associations where there should be simultaneous translation and about other venues where we need these resources.I, personally, am of the view that all committee chairs should be in person and that all witnesses should be encouraged to be in person. Certainly, ministers or senior administrators should be in person. All of this will make it a little easier on resources, and we're all concerned about the health and welfare of our interpreters.It's a difficult job to do. Those who do it do it extremely well—thank you. However, it is of concern that this is going to increase pressure on your work to staff us and their work to do what they do.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1150)[English] Are there any comments on that? No. Okay. [Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1150)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Before I begin, I want to thank an extraordinary person who has been my voice since I got elected. English speakers have the pleasure of hearing what I have to say through Dagmar Rathjen, who is celebrating 30 years as an interpreter and who is retiring next week. Dagmar is my voice. If the English speakers around the table hear a soft voice accurately conveying my remarks in their language, that is her. I wanted to thank her since this is the last time she will be interpreting for the Board of Internal Economy. Unfortunately, you will no longer be hearing Dagmar's voice. I want to congratulate her on her 30 years of service. Another interpreter will be taking her place.I now want to ask several quick questions.Mr. McDonald, could you tell us how many committee meetings were cancelled in this Parliament because of a lack of resources? It is written in the Virtual Committees Dashboard report, but I would like you to tell us for those who are watching today.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1150)[Translation]Thank you for your question, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.Our system does not track all of the information, but we looked at the number of meetings that were cancelled for which a notice of meeting had already been published, and there were 70. It is likely not an exact figure, but it is a good estimate. We provided the list to the Board of Internal Economy for the meeting today.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1150)[Translation]So we can say that at least 70 meetings have been cancelled owing to a lack of interpretation resources, either because sitting hours in the House have been extended or for other reasons. We know that, when the translation bureau and the administration have discussions, they have decisions to make. Since resources are limited, they give priority to the work of the House of Commons, and it's parliamentary committees that end up being affected most of the time.In addition, all informal meetings on the Hill are currently held only in English because there are not enough interpreters. This includes all parliamentary association meetings, but also the many activities that take place on the Hill to which unilingual francophones and anglophones do not have access in both official languages because there are not enough interpreters.As a result, at least 70 committee meetings have been cancelled. I think the translation bureau said it had enough resources to provide 160 hours of interpretation a week, which was not enough to meet the minimum needs—you could say—of the House of Commons and parliamentary committees. That's my understanding.I looked at the graphs of your dashboard, as I think it's important to measure our progress, and I do think there has been an improvement. However, I'm going to share my conclusions with you and you can tell me if I have understood.First of all, despite improvements, the number of speaking minutes from in‑person participants has been stagnant since January, and we haven't managed to exceed this plateau to guarantee greater in‑person presence. This applies mainly to committee meetings, as there are no concerns in this area at House of Commons meetings. Have I understood correctly that we've reached a plateau?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1155)[Translation]You could say that, yes. According to the statistics in the dashboard, around 82% of meeting participants attend in person, and 18% are still participating remotely. Those percentages have remained fairly constant since January.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1155)[Translation] In the debates on the motion to make Parliament's current hybrid mode permanent, I've often heard misleading or incorrectly interpreted statistics to the effect that we're back to pre-pandemic levels, with some witnesses appearing by video conference. One could indeed interpret the data in this way.However, you've worked hard to provide us with tables, which attracted me and for which I thank you. When making comparisons, we have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. In one of the tables, you compared the minutes spoken in person before the pandemic to the minutes spoken in person since we've been in hybrid mode. I see that there are three times as many minutes spoken remotely now as there were before the pandemic. So, even though I've heard that we're at levels comparable to those before the pandemic, when I look at the figures you've given us and compare the number of minutes spoken, I see that there's a lot more time spent talking remotely than in person. Have I understood your table correctly?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1155)[Translation]Yes, the main reason is that we now have more meetings with video conference or meetings where people can participate remotely. In the past, we had limits on the number of video conferences we could offer and the number of witnesses per meeting. Now we have fewer restrictions, since it's possible for anyone to participate remotely.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1155)[Translation]In the old days—you could say that—before the pandemic, no parliamentarian could participate in committee meetings remotely. Only witnesses or guests were entitled to video conferencing, which excluded parliamentarians, ministers and all public servants.Thank you, Mr. McDonald.Mr. Speaker, the motion to make Parliament's current hybrid mode permanent will be passed later today using the gag order. Therefore, as of tomorrow morning, Parliament will be in hybrid mode permanently. Despite this, and even though it's a lot of work, I think it's important for the Board of Internal Economy to continue collecting data to better understand and monitor what will happen, in order to encourage the administration to take steps to reduce the impact of the translation bureau's lack of capacity. We need, as MPs from each party, to be able to see what we can do and use our political leadership to facilitate the work of interpreters, but above all to protect their health and safety.If my colleagues agree, even though Parliament's hybrid mode will undoubtedly become permanent as of tomorrow morning, I propose that we continue this work for at least another year in order to monitor developments and continue to document this issue.Before you ask for the opinion of my colleagues, Mr. Chair, I have a couple of questions for Mr. Laporte, if I may.Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[Translation]Please go ahead.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]Mr. Laporte, I'd like to thank you for sending us your presentation in advance, even though it was just before the meeting, as it enabled me to read it before your appearance.What explains your use of a recruitment agency from now on? I don't understand the advantages of this strategy, nor why you would spend money on the services of this agency. What will it do that you can't do right now?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1200)[Translation]I feel that there are currently many excellent interpreters working, for example, for international organizations, particularly in Europe, who don't really have the translation bureau on their radar, but who would be interested in freelancing for it.We won't be spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, since we're talking about a small-scale contract. If we could go out and get a dozen people interested in joining us, that would be a huge return on investment. We're in contact with a number of international organizations, but there are others we're perhaps less familiar with. So a recruitment agency can ensure that we have access to all the possibilities.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]Mr. Laporte, neither Parliament Hill nor parliamentary committees have a good reputation when it comes to the working conditions they offer interpreters. People hear that it's not very exciting to come and work there. This is, of course, because of the hybrid nature of the meetings, which can lead to hearing damage. If I'm not mistaken, four people have suffered hearing injuries in the last month, one of whom had to be absent for at least six weeks, with her injury being deemed serious enough to warrant such an absence.Are you concerned about the international repercussions of Parliament's reputation for not appearing to provide good working conditions for its interpreters?Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1200)[Translation]It is important to note that, over the last month, many of the injuries occurred during in‑person meetings. Indeed, even if auditory injuries are automatically associated with remote participation, I want to be clear that feedback happens during virtual and in‑person meetings, unfortunately. As the consequences are still very serious, safety measures must apply at all times.I won't hide from you that the last three years, since the start of the pandemic, were very difficult for the translation bureau, which undermined its reputation. I take comfort, however, in seeing all the improvements made and all the work done with our House Administration colleagues, audiologists and the National Research Council of Canada.I have high hopes that, once we can reassure our interpreters that the consoles have been tested and the workplace is safe, people will indeed come knock on the government's door; it offers very good working conditions. The translation bureau remains, in my opinion, an employer of choice. In fact, 40 people already registered for our next accreditation exam. It means that, in spite of the shortage of interpreters, there is still interest to come and work here and offer services to the translation bureau.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]I won't get into a debate on the numbers, since we all starred in that movie last year. We don't have a table showing the exact number of your employees, because in human resources management, you have to count new employees, those leaving for retirement or those on sick leave, for example. I've given up on that table, because we rarely succeed in getting the right number. I also know that recruitment is not keeping up with the need created by departures.You talked about your strategy for doubling the number of accreditation exams, which seems like a new approach. Why did you wait to double the number? You could have done that two years ago. What prevented you doing it? I'm rather surprised you didn't, because it seems to me like a magic solution to double your staff. In fact, why not triple or quadruple the number of exams to achieve a recruitment rate that far surpasses the attrition rate?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1205)[Translation]First, we can't create new interpreters. Only two universities offer the Master's program in interpretation in Canada: the University of Ottawa and York University's Glendon campus. That means we are limited by the number of graduates from those programs, who are in fact all hired by the translation bureau.However, when I started working at the translation bureau, I said to myself that we had graduates finishing at the end of April, and we could give them the opportunity to pass the exam in June. I can't tell you why that wasn't done in the past. We'll see if that's the magic formula. I also expect fewer people to register for the next exam scheduled in November, but it's a solution I wanted to explore. I wanted to see how many candidates would register for an exam in June.I don't think we can step up the pace, because we're talking about accredited interpreters, and we don't want to compromise on the quality of their work. Every time we run an exam, our interpreters are the ones who correct it. It's not something that can be done in five minutes; it requires many hours of preparation at the translation bureau. That's why we're limiting it to twice a year.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1205)[Translation]To summarize, based on what I understood, the hybrid Parliament we're experiencing now—it could have been different—, and that we're going to experience starting Friday morning requires many hours of interpretation.In the past, there were no committee meetings on Monday mornings and there were no committee meetings at all on Fridays. We focused on the few weekdays when meetings were held. Now, you're telling me it's hard to recruit interpreters and you have to use your own resources to correct exams, which creates a vicious cycle. As a unilingual Francophone, when I see what's happening and hear what you're saying, I'm not at all reassured when I think ahead to the month of September.If the translation bureau's resources don't increase in September, it will be like collectively deciding that it's acceptable for parliamentary activities and committees not to happen, because your bureau is unable to recruit, train and accredit the interpreters we need to do our work. That's the impression I'm left with.In spite of everything you and the House Administration are doing, we come to the same conclusion: in September, there won't be more than 160 hours of interpretation per week, which is the equivalent of 57 events. That's what you said in your letter and your testimony. So, no matter who forms the government, as soon as it increases working hours at Parliament, we have to reduce working hours at committee. Honestly, Mr. Laporte and Mr. McDonald, I find that unacceptable.What solution do we have left, Mr. McDonald? It's increasing the amount of in‑person participation, in spite of the motion being rammed through today under closure. What's at stake is the political leadership of whips and every party leader, because we will have to discipline our party members to make them sit in person, as well as ask your team, Mr. McDonald, to encourage witnesses to participate in person more often than not.The overall goal is to limit interpreter injuries. Mr. Aubé told us that audiologists and experts are conducting studies. We know that House Administration made significant efforts, and so did the rest you. In spite of all that, interpreters are still getting hurt. When they get hurt, regardless of the reason or the location, that means fewer of them can serve parliamentarians. You do not have enough staff and that worries me.In spite of that state of affairs, documented for two years now, we are going to hit a wall in September. Mr. Laporte, I hope the prediction made by the union or the interpreters' association isn't accurate. They expect interpreters won't sign a new contract asking them to choose between four and six hours, because they want to protect themselves.Having worked in the field of human resources management, I know that to retain your staff, you must apply the precautionary principle. In this case, it's about preserving our resources: the interpreters. For members to access both official languages, they need healthy interpreters, and many of them.To conclude, I honestly get the impression that the issue of interpretation resources and interpreter health and safety doesn't interest many parliamentarians. Sometimes, I talk about it and members or other people don't put their earpiece on. I speak French, and 85% of what happens here is in English. That means I need interpretation. I think I'm interesting and have a lot of things to say. I don't know if the Liberal whip shares my opinion. People can use their earpiece to hear me, but they don't always put it on.(1210)Personally, I hope a miracle happens in June, so that interpretation resources increase in September.I also hope that my colleagues around the table, who are very passionate about this subject, can discipline their party members, so that the fewest number of them participate in meetings virtually. That would protect your resources, Mr. Laporte.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyDominicLaporteAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1210)[Translation]Thank you.[English] Are there any other questions?Go ahead, Mr. Julian.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1210)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I just want to make a comment. I think it's extremely important to discipline ourselves. I myself have often filibustered; it's a tool often used at committee. That said, I understand that we don't know exactly how many times it happened. We haven't talked about the consequences, but all parties filibuster. I'm not pointing out anyone specifically.However, parliamentarians' right to filibuster is coming up against the fact that there aren't enough interpreters. We have to make sure that interpreters work in a healthy environment in terms of health and safety. However, filibustering has had significant impacts over the last year. As you know, Mr. Chair, in many committees, filibustering went on for weeks. If parliamentarians disciplined themselves and didn't filibuster, almost no committees would be cancelled. That responsibility falls on parliamentarians. I am nonetheless worried about the insufficient number of interpreters and their working conditions.Mr. Laporte, when you talk with unions and freelancer associations, I think it will be extremely important not to limit them to a choice between four and six working hours. Freelancers must be offered the opportunity to choose the schedule that suits them.That's extremely important for health and safety. I think you thoroughly understand the message sent by all members of the Board of Internal Economy. It's important not to impose obligations on interpreters. Rather, we have to make sure everyone can work. We don't want the number of interpreters to go down; on the contrary, we want it to go up.I also get the impression that we have to increase resources to recruit more interpreters. The number of candidates went from 71 to 41 for the next exam. That worries me because, in November 2022, only a quarter of the candidates passed the exam. If there are about 40 candidates for the next exam, we can suppose that about a dozen of them will pass, if that trend holds. More people have to sit the exam. Finding other modalities is extremely important.Mr. Aubé, could we use new technologies to prevent feedback? Is there a type of system that automatically cuts any sudden increase in sound? Is House of Commons administration actively looking into this type of technology?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1215)[Translation]Thank you for your question.Mr. Julian, I can tell you that existing systems immediately or almost immediately deal with feedback events for interpreters. In the reports coming out over the next few weeks, you'll see that our system's response time to feedback to protect interpreters meets the standard and surpasses it.If you're asking me if we found anything, I would say no. However, we're always doing research. We don't just assess the systems to deal with feedback. We're looking for all kinds of systems to help the interpreters. That way, if those events occur, they can keep working.We are therefore looking into different solutions to help and protect the interpreters. We will propose those solutions to them by the fall.Claiming to have a solution to completely prevent feedback would be false. That is not the case. We are still looking into it.We have to work on what we call awareness, as well as the systems. Currently, the majority of incidents, including those over the summer, happened because users were using the system in a certain way. They may have put their earpiece too close to the microphone.As you know, every microphone has a note telling people to be careful. We will focus on this educational aspect to raise awareness and try to prevent feedback events. When they happen, most of the time, it's because of the way the system is being used. That's what we're trying to reduce. We're looking at it from both a technological and educational point of view.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1215)[Translation]Thank you.StéphanAubéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1215)[English] Go ahead, Ms. Findlay.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1215)[English]Thank you. I do think there is an education piece for all members of Parliament. For instance, in our most recent caucus, we were told it would be very helpful if we lowered the microphones when we have active question-and-answer periods, because the mike too close to the speaker causes problems. That seemed to help a lot, but we just didn't know that was a thing before and that was something we could do to help. Continuing education will help either through just communications or letting the whips and House leaders know what we can say to our respective caucuses.My friend, the House leader of the NDP, raised filibustering. Filibustering is something that all parties engage in at committees. It is a function of Parliament. It's a parliamentary tool that is used. I doubt that filibustering is going to end. We have the other issue of sitting until midnight every night, and that requires both the government's initiation and another party House leader agreeing to that. That cuts into committee time. We have lots of reasons committee time is cut into, but this is a very fluid place. Anything that is within the purview of parliamentarians doing their work or the government getting through its legislation, these are parts of our rules and we have to cope with that. We all understand that, and we understand the strain our interpreters are under. Our main purpose here.... I might mention to Madam DeBellefeuille that I had my earpiece on the whole time she was talking as I usually do. We need to respect this workplace and all that we do. We need to respect those who support us, but we are just not sufficiently supported, let's face it, in the work we have to do here. With the hybrid functioning the way it is, and, particularly, if we move to it being a full-on hybrid, we are going to continue to be seized with this issue at every meeting, as we have been since I've been on this board, because we're straining between workplace injury, which we all want to avoid, and the necessities of interpretation in a bilingual country and a bilingual Parliament. We have to do everything we can, collectively, to support further recruitment, more recruitment and a good workplace environment for those doing this important work.Thank you.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1220)[English]Are there any further questions or comments?I'd like to ask a couple of questions myself. My first question is for Mr. McDonald. We're supplying 160 hours a week of interpretation. There are 70 meetings that are not being covered in a year. How many hours a week would we need to, say, cover everything we need?Translation and interpretation servicesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1220)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It's a very difficult question to answer, because there are some variations in terms of the number of hours of meetings that are required per week.I would just perhaps add—and it has been covered several times already in the meeting today—that there are other activities that are taking place that are outside of committees, as you know well, that are not being supported by interpretation. Even beyond the allotment that committees require—and it is falling short today—there would be other hours of interpretation that would be required to support many other activities.It's very difficult. There's a lot of variation from one week to another, but if we look back at it historically, committees are accustomed to being able to meet when they need to without any interruptions, and that's what's been missing, I think, since the start of the pandemic. Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1220)[English]Let me rephrase that question, then. In an ideal world, where we cover committees, how many would we need, and for other ancillary meetings, how many would we need? I'm looking for two numbers. I want a clear vision of where we have to be compared to where we are.Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1220)[English]I don't have specific numbers for you today. What we know is that there is certainly an ebb and flow when committees get busier. For example, in May, June, November and December, the number of cancellations goes up, and 57 may be a number that is closer to the mark. It's probably a little bit low, but it's closer to the mark—57 committee events, that is. At some times of the year, when it gets busier, it's clearly not sufficient, and that's based on the number of cancellations of some committees in order to allow other committees to keep meeting and that sort of thing. In the past, that wasn't always the case. Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1220)[English]Just to give me an idea, and I understand it's very difficult, could you come up with an ideal situation? Then, once I have that answer, I could go to Mr. Laporte and ask him how many people we'd need to fill those hours. I'll leave it at that, and I won't ask for anything more. I believe Mr. Holland has a question.Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1220)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. First of all, thank you to everyone. I think there's been a great improvement in this area, and it's important to us all. I'm wondering if maybe we should create a subcommittee of the BOIE committee. We seem to be spending about an hour every meeting over the last two or three months on this, and it's starting to get difficult to get to other matters. Perhaps we should be considering a subcommittee of BOIE that could report back to BOIE.I certainly agree that this is incredibly important, but an hour every meeting now for many months is making it difficult to get other work done, and perhaps there's another way to do these deep dives that allows BOIE to do the rest of its work as well.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1220)[English]Do we have consensus for that? No, we don't have consensus for that, so we'll move on.I want to thank you all for coming out.(1225)I'm going to ask for a bit of a change in the schedule. We have Mr. McDonald who's already up here, and he's going to be speaking to number 6. [Translation]Can we move on to the sixth item and deal with it? It won't take long. Then we can come back to the fifth item.Do we have a consensus on that?Yes? Agreed.I now have a short text to read out.[English] The text report for this committee is the annual report at tab 6. You have before you a letter from the chair of the liaison committee, Ms. Sgro, who wishes to inform the board that the Liaison Committee recently adopted and presented to the House its latest annual report on committee activities and expenditures for the 2022-23 fiscal year. Ms. Sgro submitted a copy of the report to the board and has indicated that she would be available to meet with us at a future date, if the board desires.Pursuant to Standing Order 121.(4):The Board of Internal Economy shall cause to be tabled in the House an annual comprehensive financial report, outlining the individual expenditures of every...committee.... The established practice since 2014 has been for the Liaison Committee's annual report to be approved by the board and tabled by the Speaker in order to comply with the requirements of the standing order. Consequently, if all members are in agreement, I will submit the report as attached to the House as the board's report, pursuant to the standing order. Are there any questions or comments about the report or the process? Does everyone agree with that, that I submit the report to the House?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon Anthony Rota: Thank you, colleagues. That was quick, and it's out of the way. Now we can go on to number 5, the “Report to Canadians”, and we have Mr. Janse, acting clerk of the House of Commons.MarkHollandHon.AjaxEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse (Acting Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons): (1225)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Given the time, I'll reduce my notes.Thank you for the opportunity to present the House of Commons “Report to Canadians 2023”.As you may already know, this report allows Canadians to learn more about their members of Parliament's work and functions, and keeps them also informed about projects that were completed by the House administration over the past year.We were proud to include in this report the fact that, after a long hiatus due to the pandemic, the House of Commons resumed some of its activities, reopened its doors to visitors and once again allowed the public to attend House of Commons debates and committee meetings.[Translation]As well as offering services to members, House of Commons Administration is working hard to make Parliament more accessible to a greater number of people.Two online resources were launched for people who can't participate in guided tours. The first one is a webpage called "History, Art and Architecture". The second is a portal called "ProceduralInfo".[English]Also in this report are details of the House's work to better understand accessibility issues and information about its plan for ensuring a barrier-free environment for all. This work is in line with the House administration's commitment to promoting an inclusive, diverse and engaged workforce.[Translation]It's also in the interest of inclusivity that we changed the title of this report: "Rapport aux Canadiens" is now called "Rapport à la population canadienne".Inclusive writing in both official languages is a subject we're hearing about more and more, and it's part of a broader accessibility issue.[English]With the board's approval, the report will be tabled in both official languages in the House and made available on ourcommons.ca in a printable, mobile-friendly and accessible HTML format. It will also be shared through our social media channels and with our parliamentary partners and legislative counterparts. Tweets highlighting various elements of the report will be posted throughout the year.Members of Parliament, of course, are welcome to use our social media posts to share and discuss the “Report to Canadians” with their constituents.I'm available to answer any questions.[Translation]Thank you very much.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2023AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1225)[English]We'll go to questions and comments. We have Ms. Findlay.EricJanseKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1225)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I was curious. Do you have any stats on web readership of last year's edition of this report? What kind of take-up are we getting?House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2023AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1225)[English]Maybe not quite viral but—House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2023Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1225)[English]It doesn't have to do that, but I'm curious.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2023EricJanseEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1225)[English]No, but it is well used. I would say that last year's report between the English and French versions received about 3,000 hits.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2023Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1225)[English]I recognize you don't rely on any external resources to prepare the document, but it is quite comprehensive.Could you give us a sense of how many employees, internal resources, are tasked with contributing to producing this report?House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2023EricJanseEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1230)[English]That's a very good question, Ms. Findlay.Indeed a lot of people are involved with assembling the information for the report, and then of course the formatting of that. It's all done in-house. There's nothing that's done outside, and it's not published so there's no cost related to that.In terms of the number of people involved, we'd have to go back and come back to the board with that number.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2023Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1230)[English]Thank you.EricJanseAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1230)[English]Are there any questions?Are we agreed?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Anthony Rota: Very good.[Translation]We will now move on to the seventh item, the 2022-2023 Annual Financial Report and Request for Approval of Budget Carry-forward to 2023-2024.[English]The presenters today will be Monsieur St George, chief financial officer; José Fernandez, deputy chief financial officer; Ms. Lafontaine, senior director, decision support and financial planning; Andrew Newman, audit partner and officer manager, Ottawa, KPMG; as well as Jonathan Généreux, audit manager, KPMG.[Translation]Mr. St George, you have the floor.2022-2023 Annual Financial ReportFinancial statementsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1230)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Today, I'm presenting the 2022-2023 Annual Financial Report for the House of Commons, which includes the audited financial statements. I'm asking the Board to authorize the operating budget carry-forward.Sections 1 to 3 of the report provide an overview of the House's financial results for the year ended March 31, 2023.Section 4 presents audited financial statements for that same period.Every year, financial statements are audited by an independent external auditor, specifically KPMG. I'm pleased to point out that the audit resulted in an unqualified opinion.We are seeing an overall increase in expenditures from $33 million compared to the previous financial year, 2022-2023. This increase is due mainly to three budget items.The first budget item increased by $17.3 million, which represents over half of the overall increase. This is due to increased travel costs after public health restrictions were lifted.The second budget item increased by $5.9 million, due to the lifecycle of members' computer equipment, the Long-Term Vision and Plan, as well as licenses and IT projects in support of members.The third item increased by $5.3 million, due to higher salary costs and cost of living increases within the Members and House Officers program.[English] I turn your attention to the year-end financial results. The 2022-23 budget amounted to $558.5 million. Total net operating expenses were $537.6 million, and this left a surplus of $20.9 million.Fifty-one per cent of the surplus pertains to the House office budgets of members and House officers, which reflects typical spending trends. Thirteen per cent relates to the budgets of committees, associations and exchanges, mainly due to lower travel costs and witness expenses than before the pandemic. Finally, 36% pertains to the House administration, mainly attributable to job vacancies and recruitment challenges.The $20.9-million surplus represents 5.3% of the 2022-23 budget. It also corresponds to the lapse that will be reported in the Public Accounts of Canada.Annually, with the board's approval, the House carries forward lapsed amounts of up to 5%, which corresponds to $19.8 million for 2022-23. Of that, $7.5 million would be allocated to the office budgets of members and House officers, and the $12.3 million remaining would be allocated to House administration to support various member-related projects and initiatives.The administration is therefore seeking the board's approval to include a budget carry-forward of $19.8 million to fund mainly member-related projects and initiatives, such as member security, the accessibility plan, life cycling of IT, members' orientation and other various initiatives. This $19.8 million carry-forward would be included in the 2023-24 supplementary estimates that will be tabled in the fall.Mr. Speaker, this concludes my presentation. I'll now pass the floor to Mr. Newman, KPMG audit partner. The board will then have the opportunity to ask questions and speak to the auditors in camera.Financial statementsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1235)[English]Are there questions or comments on that?Ms. Findlay.PaulSt GeorgeKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1235)[English]I do have some questions, but I'm thinking maybe we should hear from everyone first.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1235)[English]Once we're done with this, we're going to move in camera, and that will allow us to be more open. If the members want to keep their questions for then, they can ask then. Would you like to ask your questions?Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1235)[English]I can ask them now.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1235)[English] I apologize. We have Mr. Newman. If we have other public ones, maybe we'll go ahead.Thank you, Ms. Findlay. I'm glad you brought that up.Please go ahead, Mr. Newman.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockAndrewNewmanAndrewNewmanAndrew-NewmanInterventionMr. Andrew Newman (Audit Partner, KPMG): (1235)[English] Thank you for the opportunity to present our audit opinion on the 2023 financial statements and provide a brief summary of the conduct of our audit. I would like to introduce my colleague, Jonathan Généreux, audit manager for the audit. In the audience is Ines Grubesic, senior accountant. The chief financial officer has presented the 2023 financial statements, which House administration has prepared using public sector accounting standards. Public sector accounting standards are used by all governments in Canada and are issued by the Public Sector Accounting Board, upon which I served as member and vice-chair for 12 years ending in 2020. Our role as your independent auditors is to obtain reasonable assurance about whether these financial statements as a whole are free from material misstatement.The 2023 financial statement audit began with the development of our audit plan, which was based on multiple decisions with House administration. Our year-end audit was executed in accordance with that plan. During our audit, we received full participation from your House administration. All of our questions were answered. All of the required supporting documentation was provided and all issues were satisfactorily resolved.We have completed our audit and issued our audit opinion on June 6, 2023, in our independent auditor's report. The opinion states that the “financial statements present fairly, in all material respects, the financial position of the [House of Commons] as at March 31, 2023, and its results of operation”, its accumulated surplus “and its cash flows for the year then ended in accordance with Canadian public sector accounting standards.”June 6, 2023 is the earliest date of issuance of the financial statements of the House of Commons in its history. I want to commend the House administration for implementing the financial reporting processes required to achieve this date. I also thank the board for scheduling this presentation prior to the summer recess during what is a very busy legislative agenda. Mr. Speaker, that concludes my report.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1235)[English]Now we'll answer questions. Are there any questions or comments?Ms. Findlay. AndrewNewmanKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1235)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. St George, if I understand what you were saying, I see that MPs lapsed $23.3 million in their office budgets and still have access to only $7.5 million of that. Am I correct that you're saying that you want to put that carry-over of approximately $19.8 million towards—I think you said—security, accessibility, etc. Am I talking about the same overage there? Is that correct? Financial statementsHouse of CommonsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1235)[English]Absolutely, that is correct. It's broken up into two portions based on our math. There is a calculation. The carry-forward for the administrative component goes back into all those projects that are essentially member related, such as those that I mentioned in my speech. That is correct.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1235)[English]Through you, Mr. Chair, has there been an uptake on the need for the funding of more security? I think we have been making a push to make sure that constituency offices in particular come up to a certain standard on security.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1235)[English]We have. We've seen a considerable increase in the investment in security since 2000-21. That is correct.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1240)[English]Thank you. I know I'm relatively new here, but I note that in note 7 on page 39 under accounts receivable, there is “Allowance for doubtful accounts on external receivables”. It's quite sizable at $1.65 million. That seems up from $39,000 from the year prior. Can you explain what that relates to?Financial statementsHouse of CommonsPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1240)[English]That allowance was set up last year in 2021-22. It was a past decision of the board, essentially, to set up that allowance on our books. It remains on our books until such time we deem it uncollectable. Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1240)[English]What is it about?Financial statementsHouse of CommonsPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1240)[English]I can't reveal the details in the room here.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1240)[English]All right. Thank you.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsPaulSt GeorgeAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1240)[English]I believe that's something we can cover once we go in camera.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1240)[English]Yes, I understood that. Thank you.Page 17 of the financial report outlines the costs associated with the COVID-19 pandemic. I note that there was actually a very small decline year over year despite, I hope, really turning the corner on the pandemic. It seems it's chalked up to hybrid Parliament costs. How much of the $2.6 million listed there are extra costs driven by hybrid Parliament? Financial statementsHouse of CommonsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1240)[English] Based on our calculations, approximately $2.3 million of the $2.6 million is hybrid-related. That is incremental, and we expect that will remain a part of our costs until such time as hybrid is no longer an event.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1240)[English]I have one last question.I understand—perhaps Mr. Newman may be the one to answer this—the materiality threshold increased sharply from $5 million to $9 million. I'm wondering what that jump is about. Am I correct that materiality means that, if you see any issues or irregularities that are below that threshold, they're basically not worth commenting on? Am I correct in that materiality definition? If that is the case, is there anything spotted during the audit that would have met that $5-million materiality threshold but not the new $9-million threshold?Financial statementsHouse of CommonsPaulSt GeorgeAndrewNewmanAndrewNewmanAndrew-NewmanInterventionMr. Andrew Newman: (1240)[English]Through you, Mr. Chair, I'll do them in reverse.In our report, it also says we did not identify any uncorrected misstatements or misstatements that required to be corrected during our audit. What that means is that the books and records that were provided to us by your House administration were not changed by the results of our audit. This sort of answers no. There's nothing over $5 million or $9 million that would come to your attention.Materiality is—and I don't want to give an accounting and auditing lesson here—basically through the eyes of the user or the reader of the financial statements. It is an estimate of the.... Because financial statements are not audited to perfection or prepared to perfection, it is an estimate of the amount of differential that would change the user's perspective based on the results of those financial statements on accountability.The House expenses, as Mr. St George talked about, were $566 million of total operating. Would it fundamentally change a user's decision if it was $9 million higher or $9 million lower? That does impact our audit work slightly around statistical sampling but not to a great effect for the House.I hope I answered all three of the questions there.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1240)[English]It was very clear. Thank you.AndrewNewmanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1240)[English]We're going to suspend for a few minutes and go in camera.Mr. Newman, do you have something?Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockAndrewNewmanAndrewNewmanAndrew-NewmanInterventionMr. Andrew Newman: (1240)[English]You may want to keep Mr. St George, because I think the question that's coming is more appropriate for him than me.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1240)[English]I believe he's one of the ones staying.We're going to suspend right now and, hopefully in a few minutes, we'll take this up again.[Proceedings continue in camera]AndrewNewman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0201st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, May 18, 2023Le jeudi 18 mai 2023Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTMay 18, 2023CommitteeNUMBER 020NUMBER 020NUMÉRO 020020180520232023/05/18 11:05:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1100)[English] I call the meeting to order.I see we have everyone here, so we'll get started. We'll start off with number one, minutes from the previous meetings.Everything is in order. There are no comments to be made.[Translation]So we'll move on to the second item on the agenda, business arising from the previous meeting.[English]Are there any comments or questions on business arising from the previous meeting?Some hon. members: No.Hon. Anthony Rota: Very good.[Translation]We will now move on to the next item.[English]It's the travel budget for the Special Committee on the Canada-People's Republic of China Relationship.We have with us Mr. Hardie, chair, Special Committee on the Canada-People's Republic of China Relationship. We also have Mr. McDonald, clerk assistant; and Scott Lemoine, principal clerk, committees and legislative services directorate.We'll start with Mr. Hardie.KenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89274KenHardieKen-HardieFleetwood—Port KellsLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HardieKen_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ken Hardie (Chair, Special Committee on the Canada–People’s Republic of China ): (1105)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.We noted with great interest a few months ago that the United States had appointed a select committee to deal with U.S.-China relationships. That was about three years later than our Parliament formed a special committee to look at Canada-China relationships.With some of the initial things the select committee undertook to study, we could see some very strong common connections and common issues, such as that of Chinese police stations operating in the United States. Of course, we've had that same issue here.We thought at that time that a connection with that select committee might be very useful to us in terms of trading ideas and identifying common experts we could draw from on strategies, background, etc. In fact, we could also start to look at the comparative tools that each nation has to deal with things like foreign interference or coercion or some of the other things that have very clearly been troubling us about our relationship with China.There's also an opportunity to find synergies in the way we approach these issues. You might recall that former president Trump put an embargo or a tariff on Chinese steel, only to find out later that China was trying to basically launder steel through Canada to get it into the United States. Very clearly we understood at that time that Canada was seen by China as a way across the border into the U.S.There are a lot of common interests, but more importantly, I think, opportunities to look at common strategies and common responses. I would go back to meetings we had just over a month ago as some of us from our special committee, along with other parliamentarians, visited Taiwan, where we got into discussions about their relationship with China. One of the key things that came out of those discussions was the need for care.We have heard an awful lot about “refriending”, “reshoring”, etc., but when I was speaking with the foreign minister in Taiwan, we both identified the need to be very careful to try not to isolate China, because an isolated country of that size and with that kind of power could become extremely dangerous. Our two countries, Canada and the U.S., if we operate independently and in an unconnected fashion, could end up cumulatively creating difficult situations that could be far more troubling than we could imagine.I think when we look at the effort we've put in and the things we have on our plate, such as the Indo-Pacific strategy—which will certainly have an influence on the other nations in the Pacific Rim—we see very clearly that the Indo-Pacific strategy has a very strong China component to it. The U.S. isn't involved in that, but they need to at least know what we're up to, what we have planned and the reasons for the actions we're taking.I think Washington, D.C., itself has a very rich field of academics and of think tanks, over and above their parliamentarians, their congressmen, their representatives, and we're thinking of taking a couple of days, somewhere in the neighbourhood of July 10, 11 and 12, to go down there and have a discussion with the select committee, or at least with members from it, including the chair, Representative Gallagher, who, I believe, is from Wisconsin. I've been following their work, and they're getting into some interesting discussions that are not far out of focus with the discussions we've been having for the last three years.Just yesterday in Parliament, I had the pleasure of tabling an excellent report from our committee on the perils that China represents to Canada. I think the United States shares many of these same perils, and the more we can coordinate our activities to end up in the right place with that country, the better.(1110) We believe that being there in person and building personal relationships with some of the people on that select committee and with other legislators there will give us a much, much better chance of coming up with a cohesive and basically effective strategy to make sure that we're handling China, which has become very difficult and very bellicose.... It's hard to be friends with them, but we need the best way possible to deal with them. A few days of our committee spent with their committee and others in Washington would be time well spent and very valuable to our ongoing efforts to put our relationship with China in the right place.BudgetSpecial Committee on the Canada-People's Republic of China RelationshipAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[English]Very good.[Translation]Are there any questions?[English]Seeing none, we have a recommendation on the table. Do I see unanimous consent around the table about putting it forward? Very good.Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Hardie. We have approved the recommendation. Thank you.Now we'll go on to item four, which is interpretation resources.Mr. McDonald will speak to this, I believe.BudgetSpecial Committee on the Canada-People's Republic of China RelationshipKenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald (Clerk Assistant, Committees and Legislative Services Directorate, House of Commons): (1110)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.We wanted to update the board to make sure that members were aware that a letter was received yesterday from the translation bureau confirming their ability to maintain their current service levels this autumn. As well, they speak briefly about their efforts currently under way to hopefully increase their capacity in the future.[Translation]We also wanted to provide a brief update on the remote simultaneous interpretation pilot project.Although this pilot project has only been run for a limited number of meetings so far, and there are still a few things to work out, we believe it has been somewhat successful.We intend to consult with the whips' offices in the coming weeks to better determine whether the solution as presented is suitable. We will be looking at how we can responsibly implement this service for some meetings over the next few weeks. It's still a limited service, but we believe that, if we work with the whips' offices, we can find a way to increase capacity a little for certain types of meetings, for example steering committees.I think Mr. Aubé also wanted to talk about the testing program we have.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[Translation]Mr. Aubé, you have the floor.IanMcDonaldStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1110)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We'd just like to provide an update on the situation since the last meeting.As you know, we have a continuous improvement program that we're working on with the interpretation department to ensure we don't compromise anyone's health and safety, and provide an appropriate experience for all meeting participants.In recent weeks, some people have questioned whether all our committee rooms meet the ISO standard. We have carried out these tests and called in experts from around the world to validate them. These tests were supervised by the NRC. I can confirm that our conference rooms and committee meeting rooms comply with the ISO standard. We have validated this over the past few weeks.We have also validated the headsets. Questions had been raised about the ability of our headsets with microphones to reproduce a sufficient number of sound frequencies. We have carried out these tests. We have also validated them using independent laboratories. Our headsets meet the appropriate standard. I wanted to let you know.We've also had an initial meeting with audiologists. We told you that we were going to set up a round table with audiologists from the University of Ottawa and the National Centre for Audiology at Western University. A first meeting was held to discuss the risk of the frequencies that have been measured and tested over the past few weeks. We should have a report from them shortly, but preliminary assessments seem to indicate that the frequencies are adequate. They are between 15 and 20 kilohertz in our conference rooms and between 13 and 14 kilohertz on the main videoconferencing platform used for these meetings, which is Zoom.In summary, our tests are progressing well. We're working with the Translation Bureau and should be able to give you reports in the next few weeks. We just wanted to let you know about this. As a lot is being said in the media, we wanted to clarify where we're at and what we're doing in this context.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[Translation]That's fine.Are there any questions or comments?Mrs. DeBellefeuille, the floor is yours.StéphanAubéClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1115)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for your statements, Mr. McDonald and Mr. Aubé.I read the letter from the Translation Bureau. I want to make sure I understand it correctly.We've been told that, despite recruitment efforts, despite the action plan, which by the way isn't too detailed, we'll have the same number of resources in the fall when we start parliamentary work in September as we have now.When we talk about 160 hours of interpretation in the House of Commons for sitting weeks, which includes House of Commons proceedings, 57 committee meetings and three caucuses, does that include the pilot project? Are we to understand instead that, if the pilot project is successful, we'll be able to have more hours of interpretation for committee, House of Commons and caucus work?Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1115)[Translation]This will be in addition to the 160 hours of interpretation.As you just mentioned, Mrs. DeBellefeuille, when the whips deem it conclusive and we have confirmation that we can continue, the Translation Bureau will then have to look at whether it has the staff to continue offering this service from now on. We believe this will be the case. Once this pilot project is approved by the House of Commons, we can go ahead and start seeing that the resources are in place to offer this service.There are still questions to be answered, but we hope that this service will allow us to have in the fall a capacity similar to what we have today, that is eight meetings, in addition to the number of interpretation hours mentioned in the letter.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1115)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask Mr. McDonald this: How many committee meetings were cancelled this week, due to a lack of technical and interpretation resources?Labour shortageTranslation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1115)[Translation]Unfortunately, I don't have those statistics on hand. However, we do keep these statistics, so we can pass them on to the Board of Internal Economy.Labour shortageTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1115)[Translation]I can give you a hint: Several committee meetings have been cancelled due to a lack of interpretation resources. In fact, we never know whether it's because there's a lack of resources in interpretation alone, or whether there's also a lack of resources in information technology. In any case, what we do know is that extended sitting hours in the House and in some committees result in a lack of resources, so parliamentary committees are forced to cancel meetings, which slows down parliamentary business.This means that in September, we will resume our work with the same number of resources, despite all the efforts made over the past two years, even though we know that current resources do not meet the needs of parliamentarians to carry out their duties, both in the House of Commons and in parliamentary committees.Have you taken any other steps, Mr. McDonald? What tools do you have to increase the number of resources or convince the Translation Bureau that what it's currently offering us isn't satisfactory and doesn't allow parliamentarians to do their job? When committee meetings are cancelled for lack of resources, it's because we're not able to meet the needs expressed.What does House administration intend to do to ensure that we are able to do our jobs as MPs?Labour shortageTranslation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1115)[Translation]We communicated this information as soon as the pandemic began. The Board of Internal Economy has repeatedly asked for more resources. At almost every meeting, we reiterate that this shortage of resources is having an impact on parliamentarians, on our staff, on everyone, ultimately. We understand that there are also repercussions for interpreters. That's why we're looking into the matter with them. After almost every meeting, all this information is communicated to the interpreters and to our colleagues in the Translation Bureau. So far, they don't have any solutions for us, but we're not going to stop communicating this information. They will certainly also take note of the questions you raise today.Labour shortageTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1120)[Translation]You've given new guidelines to clerks to encourage in‑person testimony. Indeed, we know that the best way to take care of our interpreters is to ensure that the majority of testimony or discussions take place in person.Has this letter helped you obtain any changes? Have you had any co‑operation from the clerks' team to ensure that witnesses, MPs and ministers can attend meetings in person, so that we return to a level comparable to what it was before the pandemic?Labour shortageTranslation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1120)[Translation]I don't have those statistics on hand, but they will be in the dashboard we provide to the Board of Internal Economy for the next meeting.We hope to see an increase in in‑person participation. We haven't had a huge number of session weeks since the new guidelines were communicated, so it's impossible to say today whether this has had an effect. We'll see when we have all the statistics in hand. We'll certainly be in a position to comment on this at the next Board of Internal Economy meeting.Labour shortageTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1120)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a comment, in conclusion. For the past two years or so, I've felt like I've been repeating the same questions. For two years, I've felt that there's no will. In fact, I don't know what to call it. Is it a lack of political will? Is it a question of organizational obstacles related to the Translation Bureau?Through the media, we learned of the suspension of the University of Ottawa's translation program. I hope its interpretation program doesn't suffer the same fate.I remain concerned and still dissatisfied with the answers we receive from the Translation Bureau. It's hard for me to imagine being in the shoes of the Minister of Public Services and Procurement, but if I were, I'd be nipping at the Translation Bureau's heels. The answers we're getting don't make me feel confident. The trap that's being set is that it's currently taken for granted that it's normal, in a hybrid Parliament, for committee meetings to be cancelled because of a shortage of interpreters. This is becoming part of our practice. Soon, it will be normal for committee meetings to be cancelled because the House is sitting longer. It's hard for me to understand why this is so readily accepted.As I've already said to a few people in the House administration, I sometimes feel like Don Quixote, because I'm fighting windmills. As a parliamentarian, I'm very attached to the issue of language. Personally, I'm a unilingual French-speaker, and I'm not ashamed to say so. I want to be able to do my job in either official language. However, what I feel is that people think it would be easier if there were only one working language here.The quality of the French translation of documents we receive is not as good as the English version. In fact, we receive translations of documents that are deemed unsatisfactory. There's a shortage of interpreters and things aren't getting any better, but I don't feel that there's as much concern as there should be. I do feel, however, that the House administration is very concerned about this issue. I know they're doing what they can. Having said that, it depends on the Translation Bureau, which in turn depends on a minister.Sincerely, I'm not reassured about the health and safety of our interpreters. Nor am I reassured about the quality of interpretation and the number of interpreters we'll have in the fall.I may exasperate some of my colleagues at every meeting, but it's important for the public to know that we're living through a pivotal moment here. In the autumn, we may take it for granted that we're going to stay at 57 events, and that this is quite satisfactory for all parties around the table. Personally, I find this truly unacceptable. I don't feel we have the will to take all the necessary steps to change things.In conclusion, it's true that I'm feeling emotional, but I'm relying on facts. I've asked Mr. McDonald, by way of a letter rather than through the Board of Internal Economy, to tell us how many meeting minutes were held by videoconference and in person, respectively, before the pandemic. This will enable us to demonstrate that, even if we decide to renew the hybrid Parliament formula, it is to our advantage to impose certain limits to encourage in‑person participation. The only avenue we can control is to attend face-to-face sessions as often as possible. That's how we can guarantee the health and safety of interpreters, as well as assure parliamentarians that they can do their work in either official language, without obstacles and without being told that resources are lacking.This concludes my remarks. I hope that my testimony will be heard by the Translation Bureau and that we'll have better results to report in the fall.FrenchTranslation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyIanMcDonaldAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1125)[Translation]Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. Mr. Julian now has the floor.[English]He will be followed by Ms. Findlay.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1125)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.At our last meeting, we discussed the possibility of inviting representatives of the translation bureau to appear, but there was no consensus. However, I believe it's urgent that we do so.Mr. Chair, I know that you take this matter very seriously. In response to my letter, you indicated to me that the translation bureau was aware of discussions that took place at the Board of Internal Economy's last meeting and that the bureau had informed House administration that it intended to provide, in writing, information on interpretation capacity.However, the letter we received from the translation bureau clearly falls short. It fails to provide any information. We don't even know the status of last year's accreditation exams or if they resulted in any new interpreters. We aren't getting enough information, and the translation bureau doesn't seem to be taking this seriously. We aren't getting answers to our questions, because no representatives of the translation bureau were invited to appear. I myself have many questions for the translation bureau. I know that Mr. McDonald and Mr. Aubé are doing their best, but the translation bureau is the one that needs to answer those questions.Even if I'm pinning my hopes somewhat on remote simultaneous interpretation, the reality of interpreter working conditions concerns me.Indeed, as Mrs. DeBellefeuille so eloquently stated, it makes no sense to have to cancel so many committee meetings because there aren't enough interpreters. The government is spending billions of dollars to renovate Centre Block, but there are no investments to put in place the resources for the successful execution of the work that needs to be done in that building or West Block. In fact, without interpretation, Parliament can't sit. It's that simple. We're a bilingual country, so the elected members, be they anglophone or francophone, need to be able to participate equally in parliamentary debate. That's a fundamental principle of our country.Having to cancel so many committee meetings puts us in a critical situation, given the government's inaction. The lack of information is not reassuring.Furthermore, the whole freelancer issue is cause for concern. Is it true that, under the working conditions being implemented next fall, freelance interpreters will be subjected to an unsafe workload? We have no idea. Perhaps Mr. McDonald can comment on that issue. Whatever the case may be, representatives of the translation bureau need to come before the committee to provide us with those answers. I'm puzzled by the letter we received this week. There are so many questions that remained unanswered.Mr. Chair, I'm going to suggest yet again, as we did during our last meeting, that we meet with representatives of the translation bureau as soon as possible. The purpose is to obtain answers to all our questions, as well as a plan of action to prevent the cancellation of committee meetings and ensure the health and safety of House of Commons interpreters at all times. Like Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I'm a bit frustrated, not because you aren't taking the issue seriously, Mr. Chair, but because we still don't have any representatives of the translation bureau here to answer our questions.I have questions about freelance interpreters, and I hope that, this time, there will be consensus to have representatives of the translation bureau appear as soon as possible before this committee.Labour shortageTranslation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1130)[Translation]Mr. McDonald, do you have any comments to make or answers to provide?PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1130)[Translation]No, we don't have any other information. Those questions are really for the translation bureau.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1130)[Translation]Okay.I think that everyone's frustrated by this situation.Ms. Findlay, go ahead.IanMcDonaldKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (Chief Opposition Whip): (1130)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I have a few questions.A hybrid Parliament is scheduled to sunset June 23. If we allowed it to expire, how would that change the resource picture for committees and House sittings this autumn?Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1130)[Translation]Mr. Aubé, do you want to respond?Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1130)[English] From an interpretation perspective, Madame Findlay, it will all depend on the collective agreement that will be signed between them and the translation bureau, based on the number of hours and so on, so I wouldn't want to comment on that until that agreement is decided on their side.From a technology perspective and a procedural perspective, I'll leave Ian to talk about procedure, but if they come back to this side, we certainly would have all the resources to achieve delivery on the requirements of the House and of committees and also for caucuses and chamber events.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1130)[English]I think we have to concede, even though it's obvious, that most of the problems we're dealing with exist because we have also chosen to have a hybrid Parliament. Because we have a hybrid Parliament, we have issues with interpretation that are ongoing and making it very difficult to do our work.Do you have any insight, even anecdotal, on the current situation with interpreters' workplace injuries? Is the situation improving, worsening or holding steady? We've had several iterations of our headphones and all that. Is that helping, or is the situation static?Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1130)[English]I don't have the exact stats here, Madame Findlay, but I can say that the number of incidents has certainly been reduced as a result of all the work we've done over the last months. That's clear. As you know, we've put in place processes to actually meet. We've had a number of meetings with all the stakeholders to make sure we have understood if there has been an incident or there have been any risks. From our perspective, the number of incidents has gone down, but I wouldn't be able to comment on the numbers provided by PSPC regarding incidents because I don't have access to those numbers. Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1130)[English]Even an anecdotal understanding is helpful in terms of knowing whether some of this seems to be helping their workplace satisfaction.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyStéphanAubéIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1130)[English]If I may just add one point to that, I would say that we know there have been occasions when there have been injuries when using the prepandemic system and even with the new technology. Every microphone you'll see in front of you has a warning about putting your earpiece close to the microphone, because doing so can cause feedback in the room. Those things still happen today as well, and those things lead to injuries. They're not necessarily related to a hybrid environment. Some may be, but not all of them will be. Some of them happened prepandemic, and they continue today, despite every effort to try to reduce those things as much as possible. Those efforts are part of a long-standing commitment to continuous improvement, and we're working to try to reduce those things as much as possible as we go forward.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1130)[English]Thank you.Are interpreters continuing to work the four-hour shifts that the pandemic brought on?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1130)[English]That's our understanding, yes. That's how they schedule.Translation and interpretation servicesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1130)[English]There's been no move to six-hour shifts? Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1130)[English]There has not been any that we're aware of. We've read media reports, but we have no other information.Translation and interpretation servicesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1130)[English]When do you anticipate that the remote interpretation pilot will have us in a position to expand the pool of resources available for committee meetings weekly?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1135)[English]Through you, Mr. Chair, we are hoping that we can consult the whips next week to get a sense of their comfort level. We'd like to responsibly bring that capacity online. We want to make sure it's fully meeting the requirements and the expectations of members. We were hoping we might be able to suggest, for example, that we start with steering committee meetings. There's been no capacity for steering committees, or very little. That takes away from other committee meetings, and so if that were of interest to the whips, maybe that would be a good place to start. Those meetings are not broadcast. They would be a slow start, a responsible start, to making sure that it fully meets the requirements. Based on that success, then it would be possible to, ideally, expand that to include full committee meetings and even broadcast committee meetings at some point in the future.Translation and interpretation servicesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1135)[English]Thank you. I have one last question, if I may, Mr. Chair. It seems as though there is more committee resource rationing this spring. Our experience has been that meetings have been cancelled far more often. I've also heard it suggested that there are just more committee demands. Would you be able to assemble a statistical picture for us so that we can better understand that demand?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1135)[English]Madame DeBellefeuille asked a similar question a few moments ago, as you know. We're already working on that. We just didn't have it with us today. We'll definitely be sending something to the board.Translation and interpretation servicesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1135)[English]Thank you.IanMcDonaldAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1135)[English] Are there any other questions?[Translation]Apparently not.[English]We have a request from Mr. Julian to have the translation bureau come back. Are we all on board with that?We have a consensus. Hopefully, we will get the answers to our questions.We will move on to item 5.[Translation]It's the “Annual Report on the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy 2022‑2023”.First, we have Ms. Michelle Laframboise, chief human resources officer, House of Commons, to present the report.[English]We also have Annie Carpentier, deputy director of members' HR and business partner services, and Myriam Beauparlant, manager for respectful workplace, diversity and inclusion.I believe we'll start off with Madame Laframboise.Annual Report on the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy 2022-2023Translation and interpretation servicesKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise (Chief Human Resources Officer, House of Commons): (1135)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Today, I'm presenting the “Annual Report on the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy 2022‑2023”. This policy applies to members in their role as employers and to their employees.From April 1, 2022 to March 31, 2023, a total of 13 new cases were reported to the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer. Three of them were resolved through the mechanisms set out in the policy, such as negotiated resolution, seven were resolved outside the policy framework, two were non-receivable under the policy, and one was still pending as of March 31, 2023.[English]You'll note an increase in the number of cases from last year and the year previous. This is not unusual when a new policy and process are introduced and significant awareness activities are undertaken. It's not an indication that there is more harassment activity, but rather that employees are more comfortable in bringing situations forward and are doing so earlier, which allows for early intervention and a quicker resolution. In fact, there were no harassment investigations at all this year, and most cases were resolved through negotiated or informal resolution and facilitation.The report also outlines the training and awareness activities related to the policy framework. An increase in the promotion of training has resulted in an uptake by members' employees. Thus far, 1,423 employees have participated in the training. We are also fully compliant in regard to MP training, and new MPs are trained as part of the onboarding program.I am happy to take any questions from the board members.Annual Report on the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy 2022-2023HarassmentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1135)[English]Are there any questions or comments?[Translation]Mr. MacKinnon, go ahead.MichelleLaframboiseStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Chief Government Whip): (1135)[Translation]Thank you very much, Ms. Laframboise, and to your team as well.On behalf of the office of the chief government whip, I just want to pass on our congratulations and our commendations. Your unwavering support is very important to us. A lot of work has been done in this area, as a result of your team's professionalism, but also as a result of the policies that were put in place. Great progress has been made. We agree that one complaint is one too many. However, there's now a reliable confidential mechanism with which to seriously assess and resolve complaints, one that ensures people can feel safe. I commend you.Thank you very much.Annual Report on the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy 2022-2023HarassmentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise: (1140)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1140)[Translation]We will now move to Mrs. DeBellefeuille.[English]She will be followed by Ms. Findlay.MichelleLaframboiseClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1140)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I agree with my colleague about what he just said.Ms. Laframboise, it's my turn to congratulate you on the report and the implementation of this policy. It's not always easy to develop a policy like this in the first place. I wanted to thank you for taking the time to consult with each whip's office. We were able to draw on our experience to improve the content of today's policy so that it truly meets the needs.I also understand what you're saying about the increase in the number of cases. You're right: When we implement a new policy, and we see an increase in the number of cases, it tells us that people feel more confident and are more willing to file a complaint for possible resolution.I also know that today is the last meeting of the Board of Internal Economy that you will attend, as you're retiring. I wanted to take this opportunity to say how much I've enjoyed working with you and your team. I can tell you that you are very well surrounded. It's often said that good leaders and good managers know how to surround themselves with the right people, and sometimes with people better than themselves. You've surrounded yourself with a great team. We in the Bloc Québécois caucus are very pleased with the human resources advisors you've assigned to us, especially Bruno and Geneviève.We can see that your philosophy is to be at the service of the MPs' offices and to be at the service of the MPs themselves to give them all the tools and knowledge they need to carry out their duties with confidence. You support them in what are sometimes difficult times.So I'd like to wish you a happy retirement and a good life. We hope that your successor is well trained and that we, at the Board of Internal Economy, will be able to return to an active leadership that is as responsive to all parliamentarians as you have been.Annual Report on the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy 2022-2023HarassmentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise: (1140)[Translation]Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.It has been a real honour to work for the House of Commons.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1140)[English] We'll continue with Ms. Findlay. MichelleLaframboiseKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1140)[English]I also want to thank you very much for all the work you do and the processes that have been set up. It is extremely important to create a sense of calm outcomes. There is also the confidence it builds in people when they know there is a process and a place to go and that people are helping them to work through sometimes difficult and sensitive issues. I compliment you on that. I wish you a happy retirement as well. I'm a little jealous, but I'll just leave it at that for now. I hope it's a happy time for you. Most busy people don't retire; they just find something else to do. I imagine you may be one of those people.I have a couple of questions. One is on the report. It speaks to three incidents under “multiple”. I am wondering if you have more of a breakdown on what “multiple” means. Maybe I'll just ask the second question at the same time and let you go from there. In last year's report, you gave some data on “inquiries” as separate from “complaints”. I don't see “inquiries” this year, so I'm wondering what the change is about. Annual Report on the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy 2022-2023HarassmentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise: (1140)[English]Thank you very much.When we talk about “multiple”, it's because when individuals file a complaint, it's typically based on a variety of behaviours, or maybe several incidents, and they're not always sure exactly what label to use. “Multiple” means that there might have been some abuse of authority and there might have been issues that they feel were personal harassment. Those are considered two different types of harassment under the policy. When we say “multiple”, it means that there are a variety of behaviours being brought forward that need to be addressed, and it's not just one channel. As far as the inquiries go, in the first year we tracked inquiries because it was really important, as we implemented the policy, to get a sense of whether the employees understood it and what kinds of questions we were getting. However, there is no requirement under the legislation to track inquiries. After the first year, we had the information we needed to make sure we were resourcing it appropriately, so we're no longer tracking the number of inquiries. Annual Report on the Members of the House of Commons Workplace Harassment and Violence Prevention Policy 2022-2023HarassmentKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1145)[English]It all makes perfect sense to me, Mr. Chair. Thank you for your good work. MichelleLaframboiseAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1145)[English]Thank you.[Translation]We're going to hear one last comment on the matter, from Mr. MacKinnon.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1145)[Translation]Ms. Laframboise, I wasn't aware that today was your last appearance on our committee. I'd like to add my voice to that of Mrs. DeBellefeuille and Ms. Findlay and, on behalf of the Liberal Party and the government whip, offer our congratulations and wish you a happy retirement, Ms. Laframboise. We have been blessed and well served by your presence here.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise: (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Julian also wants to ask a question or make a comment.MichelleLaframboisePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I have a comment for Ms. Laframboise.There is clearly a consensus among the Board of Internal Economy, who come from all political parties, that you are extremely transparent, competent and professional. We thank you for the exemplary work you've done for the House of Commons and for our democracy. We wish you well in your retirement, but I also hope that you won't stay too far away from the House of Commons, and that you will come and visit us from time to time.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise: (1145)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Julian.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1145)[Translation]Any other comments or questions?I wanted to say a few words about that as well, but I was waiting until we had finished dealing with the sixth item on the agenda, the statistics on the diversity of the House of Commons Administration, which we're dealing with right now.[English] From our presenters today, we'll continue with Ms. Laframboise, chief human resources officer, who will be accompanied by Ismail Albaidhani, deputy director, HR strategy planning and execution. Ms. Laframboise, go ahead, please.Equal opportunitiesStatisticsMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise: (1145)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.As part of its new strategic plan, the House of Commons is committed to creating an inclusive and diverse workplace where everyone can give their all. The goal is to ensure that all people, regardless of their visible or invisible differences, are able to fully participate, realize their potential and contribute to the House of Commons.It is my pleasure today to present to the Board of Internal Economy the data we currently have on the representation of equity-seeking groups. The information in this report is dated May 1, 2023.[English]Understanding the status of diversity and inclusion at the House administration starts with understanding the demographics that are under its roof. The data we're presenting today is aggregated, meaning no personal identifying characteristics are associated with these demographics. That being said, though, as we gather more data, we will be in a better position to disaggregate and analyze it, helping us to further understand where gaps exist and to inform direction and decisions.In accordance with the Accessible Canada Act, we are updating and expanding the current categories and developing diversity metrics programs. In addition, many inclusion initiatives are under way under the leadership of the House workplace inclusion, diversity and equity program, and supported by the diversity council. These include increased training and awareness, partnerships and outreach to diverse communities, and a comprehensive review of recruitment practices and policies, among other things.We must invest in developing inclusive leadership skills and in establishing a sense of belonging and trust for all House administration employees in order to strengthen our commitment to diversity. I remain available to answer any questions you may have.Equal opportunitiesStatisticsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1145)[English]Are there any questions or comments?Seeing none, I will take the opportunity now to thank you for your service. I think this bullet point number six was probably one of the prime examples of how you serve and how you work. Really, you have an ability to take something very complex and make it very understandable for everyone, and that's a rare skill. Sometimes we look at something and think, “Why can't this be simple?” This is something for which you have a very nice knack. Item 6 was something I mentioned in passing on Monday, because an MP asked me about it. I said, “Well, what are we doing about this?” Lo and behold, within a couple of days we had a report. This is a very clear example of the way you operate the department. Whoever is coming in has some very big shoes to fill. We are going to miss you.(1150)[Translation]I wish you a very happy retirement. I'm sure you'll have a great time, and everything will go well.MichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise: (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.[English]I know I'm leaving this in the best of hands. I have the best team, and they are the people who drive all of this amazing work, so you'll be fine. Thank you.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingRubySahotaBrampton North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88698RubySahotaRuby-SahotaBrampton NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SahotaRuby_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Ruby Sahota (Deputy Government Whip): (1150)[English]You seem too young to be retiring. Have we just worked you too hard, or what?MichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelleLaframboiseMichelle-LaframboiseInterventionMs. Michelle Laframboise: (1150)[English] Thank you very much. I'm not, but I appreciate that. My grandchildren will appreciate spending more time with me, so that's definitely my plan going forward.RubySahotaBrampton NorthAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1150)[English]Thank you very much.We'll now move on to item number seven, dealing with the internal audit charter and audit and improvement plan and report for 2023.[Translation]To speak to that, we have Jennifer Ruff, chief audit executive.I'm sorry, we're going to start with Mr. Janse, then we'll go to Ms. Ruff.Mr. Janse, the floor is yours.MichelleLaframboiseEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse (Acting Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons): (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll be very brief.[English]Proper corporate accountability and transparency is of utmost importance to me as acting Clerk as well as to the entire House administration.[Translation]That's why the House has an internal audit function and conducts an annual external audit of its financial statements.[English]At the next board meeting in June, the audited financial statements will be presented by the external auditors. For today's meeting, we have internal audit updates to share with you.I will now turn things over to Jennifer Ruff, our chief audit executive.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1150)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Ruff.EricJanseJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJennifer-RuffInterventionMs. Jennifer Ruff (Chief Audit Executive, House of Commons): (1150)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm here today to present, for your information, the internal audit charter, the annual report and the business plan for the fiscal year that just began.First, the internal audit charter explains the purpose, responsibilities and authorities that guide the internal audit function.Second, the 2023‑24 business plan outlines the missions that we've selected based on a risk analysis, which we've aligned with House Administration priorities.[English]Finally, the report, which covers the 2022-23 fiscal year, outlines the assurance engagements completed in that time frame, as well as the results of the follow-up on management actions through previously completed engagements. Given the results of these engagements as described in the report, there are no significant issues or risks at this time that require the attention of the board.I welcome any questions the board may have.Thank you.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1150)[English]Are there questions or comments?Go ahead, Ms. Findlay.JenniferRuffKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1150)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Do I understand correctly that this audit charter will, unlike its predecessor, see internal audit reports provided outside of House administration management?Financial statementsHouse of CommonsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJennifer-RuffInterventionMs. Jennifer Ruff: (1150)[English]The reports are shared with the board, as per the internal audit charter. This has always been the practice of the function.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1150)[English]The new audit charter suggests, “Any significant issues relating to governance, controls, or risk management must be communicated to the Clerk and, as appropriate, to the BOIE.” It says “as appropriate”. Who decides when it's appropriate?Financial statementsHouse of CommonsJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJennifer-RuffInterventionMs. Jennifer Ruff: (1150)[English]That would be a discussion between me and the Clerk of the House administration, but ultimately I do have the authority to report things to the board, if warranted.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1150)[English]Can you refresh me on...?JenniferRuffEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1150)[English] I would just add a clarification, Ms. Findlay. Not only does Jennifer have the authority to report any serious concerns to the board; she also has the obligation.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1150)[English]That's more clarification. Thank you.Can either of you refresh me on when the board last received an internal audit report? I'm fairly new, so I'm orienting myself.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsEricJanseJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJennifer-RuffInterventionMs. Jennifer Ruff: (1155)[English]The last time the report came to the board would have been 2019, and I think previous years before that, as well.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1155)[English]Would it be possible to provide us with copies of internal audit reports, maybe for the last couple of years, so we can see how it's evolving?Financial statementsHouse of CommonsJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJennifer-RuffInterventionMs. Jennifer Ruff: (1155)[English]By all means, because we did complete annual reports for each of the successive years since 2019. We'd be happy to share those.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1155)[English]Great.What would you say is the biggest difference between the previous internal audit charter and this one?Financial statementsHouse of CommonsJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJenniferRuffJennifer-RuffInterventionMs. Jennifer Ruff: (1155)[English]The biggest change in the audit charter is that we've added a description of the types of activities that the internal audit function undertakes—i.e., the difference between the assurance and the advisory activities—because what you see in the report is very much a description of our assurance activities, whereas we also have many advisory activities that we do in the name of continuous improvement, such as advice and guidance. Outside of that, there are not many changes from the previously signed charter.Financial statementsHouse of CommonsKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1155)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.JenniferRuffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1155)[English]Are there any other questions or comments?Seeing none, we'll move on to item number eight.[Translation]This is part 2 of the policy modernization.[English]Our presenters today will be Paul St George, chief financial officer; Michel Bédard, interim law clerk and parliamentary counsel; Stéphan Aubé, chief information officer; and José Fernandez, deputy chief financial officer.[Translation]We're going to start with you, Mr. St George. The floor is yours.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My colleagues and I are appearing before the Board of Internal Economy to obtain the approval of its members to update six policies applicable to members of Parliament.The first policy deals with relocation.Currently, during a continuous term, MPs representing a riding outside the national capital region are entitled to a move from a residence in Canada to that region. They are also entitled to a move to a residence outside that region within one year of the end of their term. Under this policy, MPs who wish to move outside the national capital region before the end of their term must do so at their own expense. Furthermore, this policy does not provide MPs with the option of relocating to the national capital region once they cease their parliamentary duties.The House Administration therefore recommends that eligible MPs be entitled to move from a residence in Canada to a residence in the national capital region, followed by a move to a residence in Canada. These moves could take place at any time during their continuous term and during the year following the end of their term.The House Administration also recommends that the Board of Internal Economy provide the chief financial officer with the flexibility to authorize, on an exceptional basis, moves when MPs are faced with specific situations or situations beyond their control.[English] The next item refers to the delegation of forms and signatures.The current policy requires that re-elected members sign the entire suite of administrative forms relating to various resource allocations, at least at the beginning of each Parliament. This practice is unnecessary, especially as the information remains mostly unchanged.To streamline the process, the administration recommends changes, as detailed in the submission, to make the forms' delegations of authority and declarations valid for a longer period of time.The third policy pertains to the nomination of the national caucus meeting organizer. In the current policy, only the party leader can inform the administration of the House officer designated to organize meetings. To facilitate this process, the administration recommends that the whip also be allowed to communicate the party leader’s designee to the administration.Mr. Speaker, I will now turn the floor over to Stéphan Aubé, who will provide the update on the next policy change.FormsMembers of ParliamentPolitical partiesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[Translation]The floor is yours, Mr. Aubé.PaulSt GeorgeStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1200)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The fourth amendment we want to make concerns the websites of parliamentarians.At present, when Parliament is dissolved, the costs associated with hosting MPs' websites become their responsibility. However, we noted that this was a problem for a number of members. Some must continue to provide services to their constituents in their constituency offices, and to do so, they want to continue using their website. We want to give members the option of continuing to use their site as an official site for themselves, and the House would be responsible for the costs. However, members will have to ensure that they are following the rules of procedure set out by the House and by Elections Canada. Members will have to sign a form indicating that they are complying with these rules. This will allow them to continue to use their websites to provide services in their constituency office.This is the fourth amendment we want to make.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[Translation]Perfect.Mr. Bédard, you have the floor.StéphanAubéMichelBédardMichelBédardMichel-BédardInterventionMr. Michel Bédard (Interim Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel): (1200)[Translation]There are two final amendments.The first has to do with the 21‑day period that members of Parliament have to vacate their offices after an electoral defeat.At present, this time frame doesn't take into account situations where a judicial recount would take place. If so, the 21‑day period would be substantially reduced, or the counting could even end after the 21‑day period has expired.We recommend that, in the case of a judicial recount, the 21‑day period should begin only after a decision on the recount has been rendered.[English] Another issue with the 21-day delay is that it does not take into consideration that some of these days may be holidays, which may reduce the amount of time and support that members have to vacate their office. In those circumstances, we're suggesting that holidays not be taken into consideration in the calculation of the 21 days. Vacating the office is a particular challenge when the 21st day is a holiday. It's the last day, so essentially members lose the entire weekend to vacate their office.Constituency officesFederal electionsJudicial recount of the votesMembers of ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[English]Are there any questions?[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, the floor is yours.MichelBédardClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I agree with the recommendations that have been submitted to us. I think it's very healthy for an organization to modernize its rules to reflect today's reality.I'd just like to ask Mr. Bédard a question. I've already talked to him about this, but I would like to inform all members of the Board of Internal Economy of my concern. We may agree today that we have to wait until the end of the judicial recount in a riding before the 21‑day period starts to apply. I would like it to be very clear that, for the sake of consistency, this same logic must extend to the members' orientation program.In the last election, the Bloc Québécois went through a fairly lengthy judicial recount. While waiting for the result of the judicial recount, the candidate who had been declared the winner attended all the orientation and training sessions. In the end, it turned out that he had lost the election. Then it was an administrative maze for the reimbursement of expenses.If we accept this administrative change today and understand the logic of it, we have to make sure that it's applied in the organization, right up to the members' orientation program.In other words, it doesn't make much sense for a candidate whose election is subject to a judicial recount to be invited to all the orientation and training sessions as a member of Parliament, because that causes other problems.It's not a matter for the Board of Internal Economy, but rather for the organization. However, I'd like to take this opportunity to tell the entire team that this logic must be applied to the entire administrative and organizational process for welcoming newly elected MPs, not candidates whose election is subject to a judicial recount, for example.Constituency officesFederal electionsJudicial recount of the votesMembers of ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1205)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Bédard, would you like to comment?ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMichelBédardMichelBédardMichel-BédardInterventionMr. Michel Bédard: (1205)[Translation]I just want to tell you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille, that it's been duly noted. We already notified those responsible for administering the MP orientation program to ensure that policies are administered consistently.Constituency officesFederal electionsJudicial recount of the votesMembers of ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1205)[Translation]Are there any other questions?Mr. Bédard, I will let you continue your presentation.MichelBédardMichelBédardMichelBédardMichel-BédardInterventionMr. Michel Bédard: (1205)[Translation]The sixth policy change relates to House officer contracts.Currently, the rules governing House officer contracts and what happens to their contracts in the event of dissolution of Parliament vary based on the House officer in question and what type of contract they have, be it for professional services or for goods and other services.To make things more clear, efficient and consistent, House Administration is recommending that the rules be standardized so that contracts for House officers, such as leaders or whips, continue on after dissolution and be assigned in the new session to their successor, as needed. The only exceptions would be deputy chair of committees of the whole and assistant deputy chair of committees of the whole, as well as national caucus chairs. These functions cease upon the dissolution of Parliament and are therefore no longer covered by a budget. These contracts would continue to be terminated in the event of the dissolution of Parliament.Finally, to facilitate the work of House officers, we suggest that there be a general assignment clause in the contracts, so that they can assign contracts amongst themselves, which could make things easier if a House officer's budget has been reduced as a result of elections or new appointments.Agreements and contractsHouse officersAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1205)[Translation]Are there any other questions or comments?Just to be clear, Mr. Bédard, can you confirm that, regarding the 21‑day period, those are in fact calendar days, not business days?Constituency officesFederal electionsJudicial recount of the votesMembers of ParliamentMichelBédardMichelBédardMichelBédardMichel-BédardInterventionMr. Michel Bédard: (1205)[Translation]Yes, it is 21 calendar days.Constituency officesFederal electionsJudicial recount of the votesMembers of ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1205)[Translation]Okay.If there are no further questions, we will now continue the meeting in camera.[English] I will ask anyone who is not related to the items to be discussed in camera to please clear the room. We'll continue as soon as we have gone in camera.Thank you.[Proceedings continue in camera]MichelBédard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0191st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, April 20, 2023Le jeudi 20 avril 2023Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTApril 20, 2023CommitteeNUMBER 019NUMBER 019NUMÉRO 019019200420232023/04/20 11:10:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1105)[Translation] I see we have quorum and every party is represented, so I’ll call the meeting to order.Let’s begin with the first item on the agenda, that being the minutes of the previous meeting. Are there any questions or comments?That’s all well and good.[English] The second point is business arising from previous minutes. Does anybody have any comments?[Translation]Madame DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1105)[Translation] Mister Chair, I have some questions about the minutes from the December 7, 2022 meeting.As you know, we’ve been working for a long time to determine whether we have the necessary interpretation resources to support the work of parliamentarians, whether in the House of Commons or at committee.On the first page of the minutes, we see that the “Board [of Internal Economy] requests that the translation bureau work with the House Administration to inform them of the day-to-day capabilities of interpretation services.”Can you tell us whether daily meetings between the translation bureau and Chamber Administration actually do take place? If so, we can assume that the Administration is well informed about daily interpretation capabilities.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[Translation]I’m going to ask Mr. McDonald to answer your question.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald (Clerk Assistant, Committees and Legislative Services Directorate , House of Commons): (1110)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Madame DeBellefeuille, we do indeed hold these meetings daily to ensure that we have the necessary capacity for that day.Recently, we have begun to hold discussions on planning the resources that will be available in the fall. However, we have no further information on this subject at present.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse (Deputy Clerk, Procedure, House of Commons): (1110)[Translation]I would like to add something, Mr. Chair. Mr. McDonald can then add further details.The translation bureau has hired an experienced person to ensure better liaison between Parliament and the translation bureau on capacity issues, among other things. As I understand it, this person even has an office here on Parliament Hill, but I don’t know if she’s set up there yet.I don’t know whether Mr. McDonald or Mr. Aubé has received confirmation of this.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauIanMcDonaldAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[Translation]Do you have further comments on this subject?EricJanseStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1110)[Translation]Yes, I can confirm that this person is already here. We found her an office in the Wellington Building, near the interpreters and the committee rooms. That way, she will be able to observe what is taking place and will be in a position to support us if need be.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1110)[Translation]Very well, Mr. Chair.So there are discussions every day to offer mutual support and to be well informed about available capabilities and resources.Have you been informed of the news now circulating in the media that the new contract for freelance interpreters, currently under negotiation, may not encourage them to continue their interpreting commitment to parliamentary activities? That’s because there’s talk of increasing the number of hours worked under the hybrid formula. That number would increase from four to six hours.Of course, the contract is not yet signed and is still being negotiated. I don’t want to meddle in labour relations, but I would like to know if the Chamber Administration and the translation bureau are well informed about the associated risks for September. I’m thinking in particular of a possible reduction in interpretation capacity.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauStéphanAubéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[Translation]I will ask Mr. Patrice or Mr. McDonald to answer that question.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1110)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We have not yet had any discussions about this with our colleagues at the translation bureau. We were informed of the situation and we’ve read the same articles in the media, but we have no further information at this time.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1110)[Translation]So, as I understand it, the person who liaises between the translation bureau and House Administration hasn’t had any discussions with the latter about what’s going to happen in September. Yet you told me earlier, Mr. McDonald, that you were having discussions about the resources that would be available in September.I think it’s important to consider the whole issue of resources. Perhaps my colleagues in government will think I have OCD or that I’m fixated on interpretation resources. Maybe it’s because of my experience as a manager. The truth is, I’m still not satisfied with the translation bureau’s answers to my questions about its workforce planning for the next few years, especially for this coming fall. From what we read and hear, freelance interpreters would not be inclined to sign the new contract, as it would place them at greater risk.I’m neither a manager at the translation bureau nor a sound engineer, but I am a francophone MP and I want to make sure that come September, there will be enough interpreters to meet my needs and those of all my anglophone and francophone colleagues.Since it’s important to have this information, I’d like to know if my colleagues would agree to invite translation bureau representatives to an upcoming Board of Internal Economy meeting and really get to the bottom of things. This would enable the Board of Internal Economy to be well informed and well prepared. As you know, discussions are ongoing to determine whether the work of Parliament will continue under the hybrid formula next September. With this in mind, it would be important to obtain this information from the translation bureau. Whether it’s reassuring or, on the contrary, worrying, this information will help the Board of Internal Economy to prepare properly for the return to Parliament in September.Would my colleagues agree to invite people from the translation bureau?Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauIanMcDonaldAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[Translation]Mr. Julian, I know you want to add something. Would you like me to wait until you’ve finished speaking before asking members if they agree to invite people from the translation bureau?ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader for the New Democratic Party): (1115)[Translation]I would like you to ask the question after I am done speaking.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[Translation]Very well. You have the floor, Mr. Julian.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1115)[Translation]I don’t know if Mme DeBellefeuille is finished.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1115)[Translation]No, I haven’t finished.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[Translation]My apologies. You may finish. Then Mr. Julian will have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1115)[Translation]I’m nearly done, Mr. Julian.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[Translation]We’ll wait until you’re done. Then, I’ll give the floor to Mr. Julian. After that, I will proceed with the vote, in the hope that we can reach consensus.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1115)[Translation]If I may, Chair, I’d like to ask Mr. McDonald a question. Mr. McDonald, you and I have often discussed the important role played by clerks in parliamentary committees, and the fact that they are not informers, but advisors to the chairs. Indeed, they must advise the chairs on the spirit of the motion that governs us in the context of the hybrid Parliament. That said, they play a decisive role, even a leadership role, in making witnesses aware of the importance of appearing in person and minimizing virtual testimony. In this regard, you told me that you were going to consider and take very concrete measures so that clerks could show leadership and be sensitive to the cause of interpreters.Could you inform the members of the Board of Internal Economy about the measures you’ve taken to encourage in-person participation by witnesses?Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[Translation]Mr. McDonald, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1115)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I can highlight a couple of important things.We took the time to offer a presentation to all the committee chairs to inform them of the current situation, to invite them to explain the situation to people and to encourage them to promote the idea of witnesses appearing in person.We have also changed our message to witnesses to indicate that it’s perfectly normal, even preferable, for them to appear in person, although they always have the option of appearing virtually.There are certainly situations in which it’s perfectly logical for witnesses to be present in person. As we’ve discussed in the past, in the case of witnesses who are in Ottawa or the National Capital Region, it makes sense for them to travel to Parliament Hill to testify. It’s certainly a practice we encourage as much as possible.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1115)[Translation]From what I understand, clerks have received the directive to encourage in-person testimony.Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1115)[Translation]That’s the message that was sent to all the clerks, who then provide it to witnesses on behalf of the committee.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1115)[Translation]Very well.I have one last question, if I may, Mr. Chair, and if my colleagues can bear with me.You completed the virtual committee dashboard. Once again, I want to take the time to thank all those who are helping to put this information together. When you create a dashboard, you’re able to assess yourself on the basis of very precise data and see how it’s evolving.I note that in March 2023, 64% of minutes of debate—we’re not talking about percentages of people here, but minutes—were associated with in-person participants and 36% were associated with virtual participation.Am I reading the table correctly?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1120)[Translation]In fact, Graph 5 refers to witnesses. It shows that 64% of witnesses participated in person and 36% participated virtually.Graph 6, which we’ve just added for the first time, shows that 75% of committee debate minutes are associated with in-person participants, while 25% are associated with remote participants.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1120)[Translation]So we can see a general improvement, if we compare the situation corresponding to the start of our interventions with today's situation. We seem to be on track for a return to face-to-face committee sessions.Mr. McDonald, we've achieved a 75‑25 ratio in terms of in‑person and virtual minutes of intervention. However, in a committee meeting, a member who participates virtually could filibuster for two hours, for example. That's two hours of interpreting a remote member's words. And we know that interpreters don't want to go from four to six hours of work, as long as the ISO standard for sound quality is not the subject of a scientific consensus. I'm trying to understand the situation, as a parliamentarian, and to provide the necessary nuances.You can't tell the translation bureau and a particular committee, say the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, that today's meeting will be 100% in person, or 75% in person and 25% virtual, for example. In reality, it's difficult for the translation bureau to plan interpreters' working time on a daily basis, since it doesn't know in advance what proportion of each committee meeting will take place virtually.I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly. Am I wrong to say that planning is difficult?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentIanMcDonaldAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1120)[Translation]You have the floor, Mr. McDonald.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.No, you're right. It's true that it's impossible to predict who will participate in person and who will participate virtually. We know a little about the intention of the witnesses, based on prior discussions with them. Again, it depends on the case. It's quite possible that witnesses from British Columbia, for example, will prefer to participate virtually. This is a logical solution for committees too.So you're right that planning is difficult. We'll see what comes out of the discussions the translation bureau will have with its employees and with the freelancers it employs.There are perhaps two things to add.First, on the question of scientific testing, I think Mr. Aubé can give you more information. We are in the process of doing these tests, which will continue over the next few weeks.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1120)[Translation]As you know, the translation bureau had requested that we carry out tests to verify that the systems we use during in-person sessions still comply with ISO standards. Tests have therefore been carried out in the committee rooms over the past few weeks. We should have the results within the next two weeks. It will take some time to validate the results. When this is done, this component will be determined. We also recorded nearly forty encounters to determine the rate of sound frequencies. One of the interpreters' concerns was that the systems we use for remote testimonies do not provide a sufficient range of sound frequencies. We therefore carried out validations on this subject.In the coming weeks, we'll also be running tests to ensure that the audio systems used for in-person sessions also protect interpreters from acoustic shock. We want to avoid a repeat of the situation experienced in the Senate.All these tests to verify the capability of our systems are currently underway. We should be able to provide you with the results within the next few weeks.Lately, we've also been in discussions with the University of Western Ontario, which has a specialized audiology centre where specialists are working in the field of compression, i.e., electronic transformation. Some people seem to think that electronic transformation is to blame. So we began discussions with people at Western University to get them involved in the round table as well. In addition to what has been done in conjunction with the translation bureau and the University of Ottawa, we have asked this specialized centre to get involved in audits to determine whether our systems are causing health and safety problems for interpreters. This is an issue of great concern to us. This centre is involved in these tests and will be part of the round table with the University of Ottawa. It will be able to give its comments and provide us with recommendations for improving the health and safety of interpreters. We should receive all this in the next few weeks.Finally, I'd like to add that we count health and safety among our concerns. We're always working to improve the sound tests that are done before meetings. Sometimes people seem to think that we don't do much technical testing with witnesses who are going to participate remotely in meetings. We do tests 48 hours in advance to make sure people have the right equipment and a good Internet connection. We even repeat sound tests before the meetings. Lately, we've added another element: we inform the interpreters of the type of equipment and headphones that will be used by people participating remotely in a meeting. In this way, interpreters can decide whether or not to interpret what these people are saying.We continue to improve all our processes and work with the translation bureau to protect the health and safety of interpreters.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyIanMcDonaldAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1125)[Translation]Do you want to add anything, Mr. McDonald?StéphanAubéIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1125)[Translation]Yes. In fact, if I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to add two things.In terms of pre-testing, it's important to mention that we're now doing a double check. At the beginning, technicians do an initial test to make sure that people are using the right headsets and that the sound quality meets requirements. Then we ask the interpreters to carry out a second sound test to make sure the sound quality is right. This double verification process didn't exist before. It was put in place following the chair's ruling on March 7 and the changes made in response to the directive that the Labour Program sent to the translation bureau.I also want to add that, in terms of the minutes of intervention that take place in person or virtually, the 75-25 ratio is roughly equivalent to what we observed before the pandemic. Let's not forget that, even before the pandemic, committees had the option of receiving witnesses via the videoconferencing system. According to our recent analyses, the statistics have been fairly stable since November. We're back roughly to the ratio we had before the pandemic, so that's encouraging.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1125)[Translation]I'd like to add something. This is an important issue for me. We do a lot of work to ensure the health and safety of interpreters and to improve the experience.Lately, we've started to schedule a short feedback period with participants at the end of meetings. Ambassadors are on hand to carry out tests and collect data to provide statistics on incidents and their causes. We also take the time to meet with interpreters at the end of meetings to hear their comments on how things went and what needs to be improved.In our opinion, all these measures we have put in place and continue to perfect will help improve the situation for our interpreters. I think the statistics will show that there has been an improvement and a reduction in the number of incidents.Translation and interpretation servicesWorkplace health and safetyIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1125)[Translation]The clerks are also involved in this process.Translation and interpretation servicesStéphanAubéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1125)[Translation]Do you have anything to add, Ms. DeBellefeuille?IanMcDonaldClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1125)[Translation]In closing, Mr. Chair, I'd like to add a nuance regarding the 75-25 ratio.Before the pandemic, all MPs attended meetings in person. They didn't participate by videoconference. Only witnesses could do so. This is an important nuance. You have to compare things of the same nature.I feel that the data you've provided us with is an indicator that things are moving forward. I understand that. However, it's not a very fair comparison. We have no control over which MPs participate remotely in meetings and how many minutes remote participants speak for each committee meeting. It's this data that we can't control to ensure a better balance and guarantee our interpreters that they'll do the same job as before, except in a few cases where people will exceptionally participate by videoconference. This is something we don't have and can't control, because members can participate virtually, which wasn't the case before the pandemic. So it's an important nuance to make.I am encouraged to see that the House Administration is sparing no effort to continue deepening its knowledge and perfecting its means to support interpreters and improve the quality of sound and equipment, because it knows we need it. The chair has also made his contribution by making the wearing of headphones compulsory, and by refusing to give the floor to parliamentarians who do not wear them. This has greatly improved the situation.I was jokingly reminding my colleague the whip of the Liberal Party that a man can't speak in the House of Commons if he's not wearing a tie and jacket. It's not a breach of privilege; it's in the Standing Orders. Now, in addition to the jacket and tie for men, if you're not in Parliament and want to take part in a session, you have to wear your headphones. Whether the headphones we're using are adequate, or whether we'll soon have to change headphones, remains to be seen. Consultation and scientific research will tell us whether there are better tools to support our interpreters.So, I wanted to tell you that this issue is eminently important and that we haven't finished discussing it at the Board of Internal Economy. I'll be looking forward to having representatives from the translation bureau here with us to ask them a little more pointed questions about resources for the resumption of parliamentary business in September.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much, Ms. DeBellefeuille.Mr. Julian, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. First, I'd like to thank the people who prepared the virtual committees dashboard. It does indeed show that the situation in committees has improved, and that's important. I know that the priority for everyone around the table remains interpreter health and safety.Mr. Aubé, thank you for looking after the analyses currently being conducted. It's important that the results be available sometime in the next two weeks.I'm concerned, in particular, about working conditions. The proposal to increase the hours of work of freelance interpreters troubles me. If their working conditions improve from a technical standpoint, but get worse in other respects, I don't know whether we're any further ahead. Without interpreters, there's no Parliament; it's that simple. The House of Commons is where anglophone and francophone Canadians meet and communicate with one another. The interpreters are essential.In light of all that, as Mrs. DeBellefeuille just asked, I'd like us to meet with translation bureau representatives as soon as possible. It should even take place before we get the results of the analysis being done by Western University, in Ontario. If I understand correctly, it'll be two or three weeks before we get those results. Given that my spouse is an audiologist, I understand full well the importance of that analysis, but I don't think we can wait for those results, unless it is certain that they'll be available in the next two weeks. Otherwise, we need to ask to meet, next week or the week after at the very latest, with translation bureau representatives who can tell us about interpreter working conditions. It's far too important to ignore.I think everyone wants Parliament to function smoothly. There are advantages to having a hybrid Parliament, but when it comes to interpreter health and safety, if we don't do everything we can to improve working conditions and related technology, the situation won't improve.If we could hear from translation bureau representatives as soon as possible, we could ask them questions and get very important answers.Finally, Mr. Chair, the fact that you made wearing a headset mandatory is already having a positive effect. Members are starting to understand that they can't participate in meetings without one. This is an important step in improving health and safety.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauWorkplace health and safetyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1135)[Translation]Thank you.Are there any other comments, in light of what Mr. Julian has said?As for the date, the Board of Internal Economy will hold its next meeting on May 18. Is that too late?PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1135)[Translation]Yes, it's too late.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1135)[Translation]In that case, we'll see whether another date can be arranged. I don't want to make promises I can't keep; however, if we can meet before then, that's something we'll try to organize.Thank you.The other thing that—PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1135)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I think that Mr. Aubé may be able to provide an answer.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1135)[Translation]I apologize. I didn't see him.Mr. Aubé, go ahead.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1135)[Translation]I apologize, Mr. Chair.I just want us to separate the issue of working conditions from the issue of the expert reports.We have little power, at present, over the experts' schedule, so I wouldn't want to commit to providing you with those results in the next two weeks. The experts are working on the analyses as we speak. Once we have the results, we'll send them to you. In keeping with how we work, we've committed to providing the results of the analyses to interpreters and the translation bureau as soon as they're available, and vice versa.I just want to ensure that we keep those two issues separate.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1135)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I just want to add one thing, about resources.Tomorrow, we're doing a simulation with staff from the whips' offices to test the remote interpretation system. It's currently the subject of a pilot project and something we want to implement. We're working in close collaboration with our translation bureau colleagues. The interpreters helping us with this project are interpreters who've been accredited by the translation bureau. We'll do a simulation with staff from the whips' offices to see how we could introduce this new service at certain events in the coming weeks. We'd start with less official events, ones that aren't for broadcast but that still require interpretation services. That would give us the opportunity to try out this solution and see the results, with the idea that the system could be used for other purposes, such as committees.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauStéphanAubéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1135)[Translation] I propose that we combine Mrs. DeBellefeuille's and Mr. Julian's proposals, meaning we invite translation bureau representatives to the next meeting of the Board of Internal Economy, which we would hold as soon as possible.Is that an acceptable combination? Are we agreed?Do you wish to speak, Mr. MacKinnon?Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauIanMcDonaldStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Chief Government Whip): (1135)[Translation] I would like to know the basis for inviting the translation bureau officials. Could I get some clarification as to what we're asking them for?Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1135)[Translation]I think it was to obtain information, but it might be good for Mrs. DeBellefeuille to tell you exactly what she wants.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1135)[Translation]I think that the new CEO could give us a good update. I have a lot of questions about his workforce planning forecasts. For example, he could tell us how many interpreters are retiring and how many new interpreters will be coming on board. He has that information.Above all, Mr. Chair, a new contract is being negotiated. Even if we don't want to get into labour relations, we still need to question the translation bureau about what would happen if freelance interpreters aren't satisfied with their contract proposal, because they have health and safety concerns and don't want to freelance for Parliament. We need to know the impact of that on the number of interpreters available to do the work and support us starting in September. That's what concerns me.He's the CEO because he has extensive experience in management. I imagine that, as a good manager, he has a plan B to retain freelancers if they aren't satisfied with the contract. To continue our work in a hybrid Parliament, we always need to be cognizant of interpretation resources. That's a determining factor.I more or less share Mr. Julian's sense of urgency, because I don't want the CEO to come here without any information. He has often appeared before us, so I'd like him to come prepared, to present his workforce plan, and to reassure us or identify future challenges or obstacles. That way, together, we can make the right decisions for the next session, which starts in September.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1140)[Translation]Mr. MacKinnon, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1140)[Translation]I've heard two things.First, I've heard specific questions about personnel and estimates, among other things. These are things we could surely get through you, Mr. Chair, from the CEO of the translation bureau. I also heard Ms. DeBellefeuille say that she didn't want to interfere in labour relations, but then ask all sorts of questions to that effect.I just want the purpose of this meeting to be very clear. I don't wish to interfere in labour relationships either. I think that's best left to the people who have been entrusted with that task. However, as far as estimates and figures are concerned, I think we could very well get that information in writing, and before the next BOIE meeting.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1140)[Translation]Mr. Julian, you have the floor.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[Translation]There are a lot of questions, and decisions will have to be made about the hybrid Parliament over the next few weeks. This information cannot necessarily be given on paper alone. There are questions that need to be asked. In the past, we have already obtained certain details from the translation bureau, such as its forecasts for the number of new interpreters and the means by which it hires them. All these questions are important. I think it's important that a Board of Internal Economy meeting be devoted to them. I'll certainly have questions, and I know Ms. DeBellefeuille will too.If it's just the two of us who want to ask questions, the meeting may be shorter, but it has to be done, and we can't wait. In my opinion, it should take place on May 19. There are too many things that need to be addressed, and a lot of questions that require answers before mid-May.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1140)[Translation] I just want to make sure I understand.You want to invite the new director to ask questions about his or her forecasts, since in the past we haven't had answers to the questions we've asked. Have I understood correctly? Is the reason for the invitation clear to everyone?Are we in agreement that we will do our utmost to hold this meeting as soon as possible?PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1140)[Translation]I don't think it is necessary to have a meeting at this point. I have heard nothing that convinces me of the need to urgently summon the CEO of the translation bureau.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1140)[Translation]So there is no consensus.Ms. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1140)[Translation]I know that this topic is fraught and my Liberal colleagues are tired of talking about it, but it's very important.I've found every appearance by translation bureau representatives unsatisfactory, because data is always missing. I can read, as can Mr. MacKinnon, but there's nothing like questioning someone after a reading.Our meeting is public and we are discussing a very important subject. I don't understand why my colleague is refusing, by not giving his consent, for us to receive, at a future meeting, the president and CEO of the translation bureau. I find this curious, and I don't understand it. However, as it is the tradition here not to vote and to reach a consensus, I ask him to reconsider his decision and allow us to receive the CEO of the translation bureau.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1140)[Translation]You have the floor, Mr. Julian.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[Translation]I agree with my colleague, Mr. Chair. On the one hand, I don't see why we would say no to information. On the other hand, there are motions that expire at the end of June. In my opinion, the hybrid Parliament has been a great success from a technological and technical point of view. I know that parliamentarians in other countries see that we have put in place something technologically and technically exceptional that makes our country a world leader, given its vastness. However, the weakness of this system has always been the health and safety of the interpreters. A lot of adjustments had to be made, and there's still a lot of work to be done.The question of interpreters is therefore paramount for the next few weeks. That's why it's essential for the Board of Internal Economy to hold this meeting. Even if it only lasts an hour, the answers we get will help the caucuses of all parties understand the issues and the importance of improving working conditions for interpreters so that we can make the right decisions soon.We could keep talking about this, and I have a lot of respect for my colleague, but I hope he'll say yes, even if it's a lukewarm yes, so we can have this meeting to get some answers.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1145)[Translation]Is there a consensus?There is no consensus. Do we want to move on to item 3 or continue the discussion?Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1145)[Translation]I'm bowled over. I won't ask for the vote, because there are important members who aren't here today, but I'll come back to it, because I find it unacceptable. It's unacceptable for a government member to refuse to let us hear from the CEO of the translation bureau about his workforce planning, his forecasts and his challenges and obstacles for the next session, in September, knowing that the issue of interpreters is paramount to the conduct of a hybrid Parliament.We're not supposed to be partisan, here, but, sincerely, I consider this refusal a partisan gesture.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1145)[Translation]If there are no further comments, we'll move on to item 3.[English] Item number three is modernization of policies, part 1. I'd like to invite Monsieur St George, Monsieur Aubé, Mr. Fernandez and Ms. Lafontaine. [Translation]Mr. St George, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I am seeking the board's approval for the modernization of two policies applicable to members of Parliament.The first relates to the offer to MPs of an iPad paid for from the central budget at the start of each legislature. Given the technological advances of recent years, other types of devices are now available to MPs for the performance of their parliamentary duties.As you know, MPs are entitled to a maximum of five computer devices paid for from the central budget. It is therefore recommended that the administration stop providing MPs with an iPad at the start of a new Parliament. The purchase of these devices would still be permitted, subject to certain limits, and their cost would be charged to the MP's office budget.[English]The second policy relates to the budget allocation for House officers. Operating budgets for certain roles are established using a fixed amount, while the budgets for other roles are based on party representation following a general election. An additional budget envelope for wireless telecommunication services is distributed among eligible House officers, based on the weighted average of their respective operating budgets. To simplify this calculation, administration is recommending that the budgets for wireless telecommunication services be permanently included in the operating budgets of eligible House officers. This would provide a revised base amount for the party representation calculation. The financial impact of this change, it is important to note, would be immaterial. These two proposals would take effect following the next general election, and the members' bylaw would be amended accordingly. Mr. Chair, this concludes my presentation. I welcome any questions the BOIE committee may have. FinancingHouse officersMembers of ParliamentTablet personal computersWireless communicationAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1150)[English] Are there any questions or comments?Is everyone on board with the recommendation? Do we have consensus?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Very good. Now we'll go to item number four, the House of Commons strategic plan. Mr. Janse, the acting Clerk of the House of Commons, will make a presentation.Mr. Janse, go ahead.FinancingMembers of ParliamentWireless communicationPaulSt GeorgeEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1150)[English]I'm very proud and pleased to be able, on behalf of the Clerk's management group, and in fact on behalf of the entire House administration, to present our strategic plan 2023-2026 and to seek your approval to have it tabled in the House.[Translation]This plan is the result of extensive consultations with members of the management group, their extended teams and many employees who participated in consultation sessions over the past year.[English]The mandate of the House administration is to support you, the members of Parliament, in the fulfillment of your duties. We may have other clients—for instance, the public, the media or the diplomatic corps—but our raison d'être is to anticipate and respond to the needs and requests of members. The plan serves as a road map to guide the House administration's efforts to provide exceptional, integrated and accessible services to members, enabling them to carry out their essential functions as parliamentarians. The House administration has many ideas, projects and initiatives to better support members but does not, obviously, have the human, financial or IT capacity to undertake them all at the same time. Therefore, the strategic plan will serve as a road map and assist in allowing us to prioritize initiatives and to align resources to allow for the most efficient delivery of services. [Translation]Our “One House, One Team” vision reinforces the idea that we have a common purpose and reminds us that we must work as one team to anticipate your needs as parliamentarians and offer you simplified, personalized, high-quality services.Our mission underlines our commitment to fostering dialogue and enabling everyone, whatever their role within the organization, to contribute to our services and innovate with the aim of supporting MPs to serve parliamentary democracy.[English] At the heart of the strategic plan are our values: integrity, service excellence, collaboration and inclusion. They define who we are and what matters most to us. We take particular pride in serving all parties and all the members of each party equally. It is at the core of what we are as a parliamentary administration.[Translation]During the 2023‑26 period, the work of the House Administration will be guided by three key strategic priorities.First, we focus on our people, to ensure a healthy, diverse workforce whose members feel integrated and well supported in their professional development and careers.We make our workplace another priority. We are committed to ensuring an adaptable, information-driven, connected and safe workplace to facilitate work now and in the future.Finally, by focusing on our service delivery, we will continue to create a seamless, integrated, accessible and MP‑centric experience.[English]Finally, our strategic plan now includes three leadership commitments. These commitments are important for my management group and for me, as they set the foundation for achieving the goals laid out in the plan and are meant to speak to leaders in the broadest sense and at all levels.More concretely, here are a few examples of how we will bring the strategic plan 2023-2026 to life. We will implement our accessibility plan to fulfill our obligations under the Accessible Canada Act. Work will continue to modernize and rehabilitate the Centre Block. We will continue to improve the quality of reporting and public disclosures, and provide you with a new system to submit and manage your claims and view your budget reports, whether working from the office, from home or on the go. We will begin using automated speech recognition technology to more quickly and efficiently produce Hansard. We will implement a new modern HR talent management system.These are but a few of the many initiatives.To conclude, we will continue to support you by assessing your needs, developing and implementing solutions, and monitoring and evaluating our services' efficiency and effectiveness. Major initiatives will always be brought to the board for approval, and we will continue to immediately react to directives from the board or other decision-making bodies, such as the Liaison Committee or the Joint Interparliamentary Council.(1155)[Translation]Thank you for your time. I will now be pleased to answer your questions.House of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1155)[English] Thank you, Mr. Janse. Are there any questions or comments?Go ahead, Mr. Scheer.EricJanseAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1155)[English] First, I just want to say that I think I found the proper headset. Out of respect and in light of the previous discussion, I just want to make sure that it's okay for the translators before I continue.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1155)[English] We have the thumbs-up. You're ready to go ahead.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1155)[English]That's great. Thanks very much.I just wanted to flag something. Under the current strategic plan, in the section headed “Our Values”, “Impartiality” is a stand-alone point, and it is fleshed out by saying, “We are non-partisan and we respect, support and promote the democratic process.” I believe that under the current proposed strategic plan, impartiality is no longer a separate value that is highlighted and pulled out, and it's now rolled in with “integrity”. It now reads, “We serve with impartiality, honour our commitments, and remain accountable for our actions.” In light of some of the concerns this board had studied in the House at some point with respect to the previous clerk, I'm wondering if you can speak to why the change was made to roll impartiality into another value. Integrity is important, but I think impartiality is just as important. Would it be possible to revert back to having that value of impartiality pulled out, highlighted, underlined and set in stone?House of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1155)[English]We have Mr. Janse, please.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1155)[English]Sure. Thank you for the question, Mr. Scheer.To start with, obviously seeking impartiality is absolutely critical for everybody who works at the House of Commons, regardless of their level or their position. It could be said that it's important for any public servant working in public service. Perhaps it is especially so for those of us who work here at the House of Commons, because again, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we serve all parties and all members equally. To make the point, we drill that into the head of each and every new employee when they start at the House. It is again at the core of what we are as a House administration.Through the discussions in developing the new plan, it was determined that impartiality could go perhaps under the umbrella of integrity, so it could also encompass, as you noticed, other things that we feel are important; but it certainly wasn't to diminish the importance of impartiality in any way. I hope that perhaps addresses your question. House of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1155)[English] Is there a reason not to have it pulled out as a separate...? I take your point and I agree with you that it is of paramount importance. I just think that including it in another value almost makes it seem like a subset of integrity, whereas I would argue that it is its own thing. Somebody can be a person of integrity but still not be impartial, depending on the situation, depending on the dynamic. Obviously, for your position or for a position in the House of Commons, I would say you can't be partial and still have integrity, but I would certainly encourage you to consider pulling it back out as a stand-alone, especially in light of what the administration of the House has gone through over the last couple of years.House of Commons Strategic PlanEricJanseAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1155)[English]Do you want to respond to that?AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1155)[English]We can certainly have a look at that to see whether maybe we could play a little bit with the language and the structure. Again, there was certainly no intention to diminish the importance of impartiality by integrating it under an umbrella value. We can certainly go back to look at that.House of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1155)[English]Mr. Scheer, are you done? Okay.Now we'll go to Mr. Holland, followed by Ms. Findlay.Go ahead, Mr. Holland.House of Commons Strategic PlanEricJanseMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1155)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.I obviously respect what my honourable colleague said and share the value, unquestionably, but I actually think it does the opposite. By stating that impartiality fits under a value of integrity, you're actually strengthening the argument that impartiality is in fact a core value and represents integrity, but I'm not here to wordsmith this document. I think overall this is very strong. I support what is presented. I support the great work of the administration.To the point that Mr. Scheer was making, I understand the point and I support the point, but maybe if you step back and you reflect on it, stating that for this place integrity and impartiality are one and the same and that there is an expectation that it is a core value, I think, is actually more powerfulHouse of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[English]Now we'll go to Ms. Findlay and then over to Mr. Julian.MarkHollandHon.AjaxKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (Chief Opposition Whip): (1200)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.I noted the same thing. I wasn't here through lots of the issues, but I certainly heard about them when I returned in 2019. I think what everyone wants to be reassured of is that through this all-party board, impartiality remains at the heart of the House administration's DNA. It may have not been a matter that was meant to be lessened or moved down—“downgraded” is maybe the better word—but it appears that way to me when I read it, especially as it was highlighted before and especially as it has been an issue. I am wondering what the harm would be in making it a stand-alone highlighted item. I'm also wondering if it could be articulated how much collaboration with, or input from, House administration employees went into the preparation of this proposal.House of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[English]Mr. Janse, I believe you can answer those concerns.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1200)[English]Sure. Again, in terms of bringing out impartiality as a separate value, we can certainly go back to the team and discuss that.For your second question, Ms. Findlay, regarding how the plan was developed and how the consultations were undertaken, I'll look to some of my colleagues in the room. I think it took about a year to develop. There were a number of meetings of the senior management team—the Clerk's management group, as it's called—to work at this based on the earlier plan, and then to bring in the new plan. There were also employee consultations. We had a number of working groups. I think they were done over the summer, if memory serves me well. There was a call put out to all employees, regardless of level, asking whether they would like to participate in focus groups on the development of the new plan. It did take time, but it did involve quite extensive consultations. I hope that answers your question.House of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1200)[English]It does, but I would ask you to revisit this. Thank you.House of Commons Strategic PlanEricJanseAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[English]Do you have any further questions, Ms. Findlay? No.We'll go over to Mr. Julian.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1200)[English] Thanks, Mr. Chair.I certainly understand Mr. Scheer's point. I understand Mr. Holland's point as well, and Ms. Findlay's point. I think we are basically talking about the same issue, which is whether impartiality is a part of integrity or is something that coincides with integrity.Looking at the actual values—“serve with impartiality, honour our commitments, and remain accountable for our actions”—there are a couple of elements that are clearly in the framework of integrity, and the issue of impartiality is there as well. I would suggest that one way of dealing with this would be to add “impartiality” to the title. If the values include inclusion, collaboration and service excellence, they also include integrity and impartiality, which really go together. I think that perhaps strikes middle ground between what Mr. Scheer has said, which I understand and agree with, and what Mr. Holland has said, which I also understand and agree with.House of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[English]Is that an acceptable compromise?Mr. Scheer, please go ahead.House of Commons Strategic PlanPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1200)[English]For clarification, could my colleague Mr. Julian specify exactly what wording he would like to see?House of Commons Strategic PlanAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1200)[English]The value title would be “Integrity and Impartiality”.House of Commons Strategic PlanAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1205)[English] I see some nodding. Is that acceptable to everyone?I think we have consensus. Fantastic. That's very good. Thank you. Are there no other questions or comments? Very good.Now we'll continue to item number five. We'll be going in camera. We'll take five minutes, but if we get in sooner, we'll start sooner.House of Commons Strategic PlanPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0181st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTThursday, February 16, 2023Le jeudi 16 février 2023Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTFebruary 16, 2023CommitteeNUMBER 018NUMBER 018NUMÉRO 018018160220232023/02/16 11:05:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1100)[English] This is meeting number 18 of the Board of Internal Economy.[Translation]Today is February 16, and this meeting is televised.Members of the Board of Internal Economy are participating remotely, by video conference.[English]Before we go to the first one, I'd like to change the agenda a bit.Would that be okay?[Translation]Item 3 requires a bit more time, so I suggest we deal with items 1, 2, 4 and 5 first. I think we can get through them fairly quickly.[English]Then we can move on to number 3 and take our time. I believe that one will take some time.Mr. Julian.PeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1100)[Translation]I'm fine with that, Mr. Chair, but we have to discuss item 5 in camera. Were you planning to have the committee go in camera to discuss item 5 and, then, resume in public to deal with item 3?AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1100)[Translation]Yes. Those in the room can stay for the in-camera portion of the meeting. We will discuss what we need to discuss in camera, after which, we will come back to item 3.Go ahead, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1100)[Translation]I'm fine with that as well, Mr. Chair. I hope all of my fellow members will stay to discuss that item and not try to duck out.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1100)[Translation]Some things I can't control, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. That said, considering everything that's going on in the House and in committees, I don't think anyone will slip out.That brings us to the first item of business, the minutes of the previous meeting.Are there any questions or comments?I see that the committee is in agreement.(1105)[English]Under business arising from the previous meeting, item 2c is Internet expenses for members and their employees. Ms. Findlay, do you want to cover that?Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse (Acting Clerk of the House of Commons): (1105)[English]Was it Ms. Findlay who wrote a letter?Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English]Yes. Ms. Findlay wrote a letter asking.... Do you want to speak to that? Either you or Ms. Findlay....Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffEricJanseEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1105)[English]I'm assuming Ms. Findlay might like to start. If not, our finance folks might. Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English]Okay. Maybe we'll let the finance folks talk to it first.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffEricJanseEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1105)[English]Ms. Findlay, do you want to introduce it?Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English]Okay. It's fairly straightforward. I think anybody who has read it understands it.Ms. Findlay, if you want to say a few words on that, that would be great.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffEricJanseKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay (Chief Opposition Whip): (1105)[English]I think it is quite straightforward. The issue is, I believe, payment of bills for Internet at your home or for staff at their homes, which, given the circumstances that Canadians find themselves in, having a difficult time paying bills and with inflation at the high rates it is at, seems to be something that should be a personal expense and not tied to your job as an MP or as staff to an MP. That being said, some MPs have spoken to me and said that at the beginning of the COVID-19 lockdowns, etc., when they had to work from home, being in particularly rural communities, they had to upgrade their Internet. One MP even had a tower erected in his backyard in order to facilitate that. However, those costs were incurred in the past. Now that we are where we are, our feeling is that this should be a personal expense and should no longer be charged to members' budgets.We as a party have taken the step of telling our members not to claim those charges anymore. I believe others have done likewise, but I don't know the status for all the parties.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English]Thank you.Mr. Holland.Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1105)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.I'll just add that we concur. We have advised our caucus the same. While there may have been a time when this particular item made sense, in the contemporary context it does not. Internet is something we all have to have in our homes, in the same way that we have to have hydro. I think for principal residences, it makes sense to withdraw the ability for members to apply for that.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English]Mr. Julian.MarkHollandHon.AjaxPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1105)[English] I just wanted to ask how many MPs accessed the home Internet costs over the past year.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1105)[English]If it's the percentage, we're looking at about 20% in terms of claims of the 338 over the last fiscal year.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1105)[English]Thank you for that.Were those MPs from all parties, or preponderantly from one party?Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1105)[English]That would be from all parties. That's primary residence only.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1105)[English]Do you have anything else, Mr. Julian?PaulSt GeorgePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1105)[English]I don't have an objection to the proposal. I saw some news reports that indicated that one party seemed to have accessed the home Internet costs more than other parties.I think it's important that we have a consensus on this. I have no objections. It's fair to say that in BOIE we have a responsibility to take off our partisan hats. I will suggest that something like that shouldn't be, when we have correspondence around the BOIE, trying to tweak a sort of partisan element to it. I didn't appreciate the tone of the letter, but I certainly appreciate the intent.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[English]Very good.We'll now go to Madame DeBellefeuille.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1110)[Translation]I'm fine with changing the policy, Mr. Chair. It's important to ensure that the rules keep pace with the times. I completely agree with Mr. Holland on that. We should ask the House administration to repeal the policy.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[Translation]Very well.[English]Are there comments on that?Go ahead, please, Ms. Findlay.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White Rock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/20878Kerry-LynneFindlayHon.Kerry-Lynne-FindlaySouth Surrey—White RockConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FindlayKerryLynne_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Kerry-Lynne Findlay: (1110)[English]I just wanted to add that I think the preponderance of MPs who serve rural ridings was the issue—not in all cases, but as I said, to my knowledge, those representing rural ridings have upgraded their Internet to a standard that is acceptable in the House and in committee. At this point, I think we should move forward now, as the government House leader said, to look at the modern and current situation and act accordingly.Thanks.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[English]I believe we have consensus at the table. Everybody is nodding their head in favour.The question is timing. I understand that it was in place until the end of March. Is that a good time to stop it from continuing? If we do it right away, it might cause some confusion.[Translation]I propose ending it on March 31, at the same time as the policy.[English]The expiration of the rule will cause it to sunset. Is that fair? Does that work well?[Translation]Over to you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffKerry-LynneFindlayHon.South Surrey—White RockClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1110)[Translation]That's fine with us, Mr. Chair.I think people have heard or read that almost every party has already opted to halt the practice. Logically, then, there shouldn't be any requests coming in, since each caucus came to the decision on its own.I understand that, from an administrative standpoint, the rule has to expire, so it's better for that to coincide with the end of the fiscal year. It's important for those following today's proceedings to understand that the members of each caucus made the decision to put an end to the practice.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1110)[Translation]Very good.Everyone is in agreement, then.[English]Everything is in place. Very good. I believe we have unanimous consent, which is nice.Now we'll move on to number four.Monsieur St George, Monsieur Fernandez and Ms. Lafontaine will be presenting on the quarterly financial report for the third quarter of 2022-23.Go ahead, Monsieur St George.Broadband Internet servicesGovernment expendituresMembers of ParliamentMembers of Parliament staffClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1110)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Today, I am presenting the quarterly financial report for the third quarter of 2022‑23.This unaudited report, based on a modified cash basis of accounting, was prepared by the administration. I attest to the accuracy and reliability of the information provided in the report.As of December 31, the House had spent $391.6 million, which is an increase of $24.8 million over the same quarter last year.The increase is mainly due to four items.The first accounts for more than half of the increase, so $11.6 million, resulting from an increase in travel costs as activity levels on Parliament Hill increased and public health restrictions were lifted.[English] The second item represents an increase of $3.6 million in equipment costs, mainly due to equipment delivery delays in the previous year and IT projects in support of members and equipment life-cycling.The third item is also attributable to increased parliamentary activities and amounts to $3.1 million for supplies for food services and printing services.Finally, the fourth item accounts for $2.7 million, an increase mainly for IT projects and initiatives related to members' security enhancements and higher hospitality costs.Most importantly, it should be noted that as of December 31, the House was operating within the approved authorities, and there are no other financial material variances or concerns to bring to the board's attention.Mr. Speaker, this concludes my presentation. I welcome any questions the board may have.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Third Quarter of 2022-2023AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[Translation]Are there any comments?[English]Okay. Thank you very much.Mr. MacKinnon.PaulSt GeorgeStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Chief Government Whip): (1115)[Translation]Thank you for your always diligent work.I have a very quick question.My understanding is that the increase over last year is due to activities resuming once public health restrictions were lifted, meaning that members returned to Parliament Hill instead of continuing to work remotely.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Third Quarter of 2022-2023AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingPaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George: (1115)[Translation]Yes, Mr. MacKinnon. The rise in parliamentary activity accounts for the entire increase.Government expendituresQuarterly Financial Report for the Third Quarter of 2022-2023StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1115)[English]Are there other questions?Okay, we'll now go in camera. We'll take two minutes, have a bit of a break, and then come back. While we are in camera it shouldn't be very long. I'm going to ask those who are not privy to this to please vacate. At 11:20 a.m., we'll start with the in camera session.[Proceedings continue in camera](1115)(1150[Public proceedings resume]PaulSt GeorgeAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1150)[Translation]We are ready to carry on.We are now on agenda item 3.Thank you for agreeing to deal with the items out of order so we could spend a bit more time on item 3, which is a very important item for everyone here and at the House.Before we begin the discussion, I'm going to ask Mr. Janse to give us a bit of background on the subject.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingEricJanseEricJanseEric-JanseInterventionMr. Eric Janse: (1150)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.[English] As the newly appointed acting clerk, I would like to state on behalf of the House administration that we fully realize how challenging and frustrating the issue of interpretation capacity has been and that, frankly, it has taken too much of the board's time.This issue is a priority for us, as it is for the translation bureau.[Translation]A few weeks ago, Dominic Laporte became the Translation Bureau's new CEO. One of the first things he did was contact me so we could meet to discuss the matter, which we did. Since then, he has been meeting with Ian McDonald and Stéphan Aubé nearly every day.[English]The three of them have some information to share on the issue. Afterwards, of course, we'll be more than pleased to answer your questions.I think Dominic is going to start, if that's okay.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1150)[English]Yes.Our presenters today are Monsieur Dominic Laporte, chief executive officer of the translation bureau, Matthew Ball, vice-president of the translation bureau, Ian McDonald, clerk assistant of the committees and legislative services directorate, Scott Lemoine, principal clerk of committees, and Stéphan Aubé, chief information officer.Now we'll turn it over to Monsieur Laporte.[Translation]Welcome, Mr. Laporte, and congratulations on your appointment.Translation and interpretation servicesEricJanseDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte (Chief Executive Officer, Translation Bureau): (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.Good morning, honourable members of the Board of Internal Economy. I would like to recognize our parliamentary partners who are here today. I would also like to recognize and thank Cécilia Shea, Bernadette Blain and Linda Ballantyne, who are providing the interpretation services for today's meeting.I am pleased to appear before you for the first time since taking on the role of chief executive officer of the Translation Bureau in January. Of course, you know the fellow who is with me today, Matthew Ball, vice-president of the services to Parliament and interpretation sector.It is with great humility that I appear before you to discuss the complex issue of interpretation service capacity.Over the past few weeks, I've had the opportunity to examine the issues affecting interpretation services in an effort to grasp all the implications. Matthew Ball and his team gave me a detailed history of the situation, describing the significant measures that have been implemented.Let me assure you of something: my priority is to step up efforts to ensure the health and safety of interpreters, while, as you mentioned, improving interpretation capacity.[English]Since my arrival, I have met with the House administration partners who are in charge of the technical setting for interpretation services. They have clearly explained the logistics that need to be taken into account from Parliament's point of view, as well as the difficulties that service interruptions and the lack of capacity cause for parliamentarians.As far as capacity is concerned, as you may have heard, our accreditation exam in November added 10 new freelancers to our pool. Their arrival does not in itself represent an increase in our capacity, given the number of injured interpreters and departures, but they are still welcome reinforcements.We are also continuing to work with the House administration to implement the provision of interpretation from outside the parliamentary facilities using freelance interpreters. We now have contracts in place so that we can provide two additional two-hour meetings per day from Monday to Thursday, as we promised in December, using interpreters outside of Ottawa.We are working on another long-term project to increase our capacity, such as a tour of universities to foster the next generation.That said, even if we increase the number of interpreters, we won't make any headway if we cannot guarantee their health and safety.(1155)[Translation]I've had the opportunity to meet with our staff interpreters twice in the past two weeks. I was extremely impressed by their professionalism and their determination to serve the needs of their parliamentary clients. I was also very moved to hear how distressed they were by the current circumstances. It's terrible to learn that interpreters can no longer go to concerts and have trouble hearing their children at play because of hearing injuries they suffered while doing their jobs.Those discussions actually helped dispel a misconception I had. I was under the impression that if the audio quality was fine for me, as a virtual or in-person participant, it was also fine for the interpreters. That is completely untrue, however. Interpretation is so cognitively demanding that in order for interpreters to listen and speak at the same time, the audio has to be broadcast quality.That is why improving the sound quality is so crucial. The use of proper microphones by participants is part of the solution. Another part is encouraging participants who are in the area to attend meetings in person. What's more, the Internet connection, the computer equipment, the audio system and education all play a role, and it doesn't end there.After seven weeks on the job, I am well aware that there is no magic formula to fix everything. It's a long-term undertaking. I understand the challenge we are facing.When I say “we”, I don't mean only the Translation Bureau. One thing is clear to me: the bureau can't fix this on its own. All the stakeholders have to work together. The bureau is grateful for the House administration's support.[English] Honourable members of Parliament, you are certainly aware of the direction that Employment and Social Development Canada's labour program issued to the translation bureau on February 1, 2023. In accordance with these directions, our interpreters are instructed, as of February 6, not to interpret participants who do not use an appropriate microphone. We will soon be commissioning random sound tests in real work situations in the House and Senate committee rooms.These instructions are in line with the work we were already doing with the administration to improve sound quality. They are not the solution to everything, but they clearly illustrate how important it is that we remain truly committed to our efforts.Every new measure and every small gain in our long-term work to promote sound quality benefit not only the interpreters, who can do their work safely, but also the translation bureau, which will have improved capacity thanks to a healthy workforce, and the users of interpretation services, who will enjoy more stable services.Honourable members of the Board of Internal Economy, thank you for your co-operation with the translation bureau and thank you for inviting me to speak on this important topic. Matthew and I will now be happy to answer your questions.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauWorkplace health and safetyAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1155)[English]Very good. Do we have any comments or questions?[Translation]Go ahead, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.DominicLaporteClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.It's my turn to congratulate you on your appointment, Mr. Laporte. I wish you much success as you take on this new challenge in your career. I appreciate the magnitude of the challenge you're facing, with the labour shortage and the impact it's having on one of our valuable resources, interpreters.I read the letter you sent the Speaker on February 15, and I have a few questions.That is well within the bounds of the topic, is it not, Mr. Speaker?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1155)[Translation]Yes. Go ahead.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1155)[Translation]Wonderful.There's been a lot of information out there about how many interpreters were trained and wrote the accreditation exam. There was talk of 70 interpreters at one point. At the end of the day, my understanding is that 10 interpreters passed the exam. They are Canadian residents and are at the end of the security clearance process, but they opted not to accept positions with the Translation Bureau as staff interpreters, unfortunately. Instead, they decided to work as freelancers. From what I gather, for freelancers, the House administration is a client like any other client whom they agree to provide a certain amount of coverage to.In simple terms, the additional resources are calculated not in interpreters, but in blocks of time or shifts, because they involve freelance capacity.In your letter, you say that the bureau will provide coverage for eight meetings or shifts, so two hours per day from Monday to Thursday, as promised.Do I have that right?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1155)[Translation]Yes, that's exactly right.I would like to clarify, though, that the new resources for remote simultaneous interpretation are not resources that were previously assigned to Parliament. Those individuals, who do not live in the national capital region, do represent new resources, so that is really additional capacity. The two additional events per week that we will be covering—for a total of 59, instead of 57—are events that we would not have been able to cover without those interpreters.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]Those resources come from the off-site interpretation pilot project, which we are examining. Do I have that right?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1200)[Translation]Yes.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]Very good.I have another question.Both the House of Commons and the Senate require your interpretation services, Mr. Laporte. Who will decide where the interpreters covering those eight new shifts or meetings are assigned?Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1200)[Translation]With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I'm going to ask Mr. Ball to answer that.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball (Vice-President, Services to Parliament and Interpretation Sector, Translation Bureau): (1200)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.The bureau schedules the daily assignments according to client needs. As you already know, the bureau prioritizes services to Parliament. Currently, the bureau's resources are assigned to Parliament first. Once those interpreters agree to work for us, we decide which meeting they will cover.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauDominicLaporteAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1200)[Translation]Do you have anything to add, Mr. McDonald?MatthewBallIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald (Clerk Assistant, Committees and Legislative Services Directorate, House of Commons): (1200)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I simply want to point out that, once the Translation Bureau makes the resources available, the whips decide who gets the available meeting capacity, whether for committee or other meetings. Usually, committees are given priority, but it's always up to the whips.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]Will we be sharing the capacity for the new shifts with the Senate, or is it strictly for the House and its committees?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1200)[Translation]The freelancers working for the translation bureau serve both legislative chambers. Their priority is Parliament, before clients from the Government of Canada.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]Who will decide whether they go to the Senate or the House of Commons? The needs of the House of Commons and its committees are already not being met. Who will make the decisions? How will agreements be reached? What is the mechanism?Translation and interpretation servicesMatthewBallDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1200)[Translation]Since the remote simultaneous interpretation pilot project is being conducted in close partnership with the House of Commons, the resources will be allocated to the House at first. I think we will learn a lot from the pilot project.To be honest and quite frank with you, we are not necessarily planning for additional resources. I talked about the limited capacity. The new resources will simply allow us to continue providing the services we currently provide to the Senate and the House of Commons, in the same proportion. We are not in a situation where we can allocate additional resources to the Senate or the House of Commons, except through the remote simultaneous interpretation pilot project, which we are conducting with the House of Commons Administration.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1200)[Translation]I see.I understand that the pilot project was set up by the House of Commons. The eight new shifts will therefore be attributed to the House.Mr. McDonald, when will these new shifts be available? Is there a planned start date?Translation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1200)[Translation]No start date has yet been set for the use of this new service, as we are still conducting tests. Once the tests have been successfully completed, we will offer demonstrations to staff from whips' and parliamentary leaders' offices so they can try this new service and find out how it works and what the details are. We also want to try this service in other meetings that require interpretation services but that are not necessarily committee meetings. Once we have completed these steps, we will give BOIE members, or at least the whips, a report to indicate that the service is ready to be used at committee meetings.At that point, the whips will be able to decide and determine how to use the capacity that will then be available.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1205)[Translation]I imagine you have a time frame in mind. Can you tell us when you are hoping to make this service available?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1205)[Translation]We hope to have it available in mid‑April, after the Easter holidays. It will all depend on the other steps of the process, and we will have to make sure everything works without any hiccups. We know that interruptions during committee meetings have a significant impact on parliamentary work.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1205)[Translation]Mr. Speaker, I’ll ask one last question before giving the floor to my colleagues. I'll speak again afterwards if there is still time left.Mr. Laporte, you know that, since Parliament switched to hybrid mode nearly three years ago, everyone has worked hard to do their job in a virtual and hybrid setting. We are now at the last steps of refining the system, so that everything can be done even more easily.Your co-operation with the House of Commons Administration is critical to really ensure teamwork. You can support us by following the system’s development closely and ensuring people’s health and safety, as well as by providing high‑quality service with enough resources to meet parliamentarians’ needs.We talked a lot about incident reports, injuries, and all of that. In another life, I was a manager, and I know that incident reports are very important in informing our practices.I wonder whether your co-operation with House of Commons IT and Administration is close enough that you could send them your incident reports quickly, so that they can follow up just as quickly. Can they use the recordings and do their own analyses for you to also get answers much more quickly? This would allow you to draft and analyze your incident reports.I sense that there is new, even closer co-operation between the bureau and the House. Will it lead you to communicate quickly as part of your processes, your procedures and your incident reports?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1205)[Translation]Based on what I have seen, co-operation between the Translation Bureau and the House of Commons Administration has always been excellent and we want to build on that co-operation.We have work to do to be able to send information in real time. Often, interpreters will inform us as soon as there is an incident or a service interruption. Multimedia services staff are also informed of the incident. We need to send the information more efficiently and in real time.I am currently working to hire a director who will be dedicated to these protocol issues. This is an important priority for me.If we want to be able to correct certain situations and distinguish between problems that are purely technical and those that threaten interpreters’ health and safety, we really need technological platforms that will allow for information to be better transmitted in real time.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1205)[Translation]Mr. Julian, you now have the floor.DominicLaportePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1205)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.Mr. Laporte, I congratulate you.We have understood that part of the responsibility lies with parliamentarians. I think it’s extremely important that all members use ISO‑compliant headsets at all times. We are talking with each other and I think we are making progress, but there is still work to do there. Our interpreters do important work and we want to contribute to ensuring their occupational health and safety.With that said, I would like to know how many interpreters will be hired. If I remember correctly, we were told before Christmas that about 40 new interpreters, 42 to be exact, had passed the exam.Am I right, Mr. Ball?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1205)[Translation]In fact, almost 70 candidates took the exam. Of these, many do not live in Canada and therefore would not have been able to provide services. Of the approximately 40 candidates who live in Canada and could provide services if they passed the exam, 10 passed and will be able to provide services soon.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1210)[Translation]So three-quarters of the candidates on Canadian soil failed the exam: that's a pretty high failure rate.Can you explain whether this is related to their education? Did they almost pass the exam? Do they just need to acquire some concepts and get some more training to pass the exam?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesMatthewBallDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1210)[Translation]The success rate, at 23.9%, is one of the highest. I know it seems low, but I would really like to emphasize the rigour with which we select and accredit an interpreter. We want to make sure we have the best interpreters and maintain our quality standards.I think the Translation Bureau will never lower that bar to get more interpreters. Its exam takes place every year. This year I still consider us very lucky; it's a good success rate.I know that the Translation Bureau helped interpreters from York University and the Glendon campus prepare for the exam. This has been very helpful in increasing the success rate, but I don't think there is a magic bullet to increase the success rate, especially if we want to maintain the quality of services and not lower the standards.With regard to the accreditation exam...StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1210)[Translation]Mr. Laporte, excuse me for cutting you off, but I am not talking about lowering these standards at all. That is out of the question, and we certainly want quality interpretation. Nor am I talking about waving a magic wand so that interpreters can pass the exam.That said, the problem is that there is a shortage of qualified interpreters. In my opinion, the question is how to access more qualified interpreters. I am more aware of what happens in other fields and I know that sometimes people just miss passing an exam. In these cases, as an employer, we might need to find ways to help these people get the qualifications for the job.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1210)[Translation]The bureau works with candidates who have nearly achieved a passing grade and encourages them to take the exam the next time.I am also working with Mr. Ball and his team to take further action. For example, there will be another accreditation exam on June 27. We will now have two exams per year. I know we access the same pool of resources, but if we can get more people interested in taking that exam, that will be very positive.I am also working on hiring a recruitment firm that will contact other people in settings where the bureau has less of a presence, such as conference interpreters in other organizations, to see if they are interested in taking the accreditation exam or joining the bureau.I also want to add that some foreign candidates have passed the accreditation exam. Indeed, we do accredit some of them. These are candidates we don't want to forget, because they are very good interpreters. So it's a matter of maximizing the steps to accompany them in a sponsorship process if they want to immigrate.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1210)[Translation]Thank you. I really appreciate your response because it gives me some ideas.Have you ever done a labour market assessment? Here in New Westminster—Burnaby, we sometimes turn to skilled immigrants to fill certain positions where there is a shortage.Has the House of Commons ever taken this step to allow those who have qualified outside the country to come and work for us and help solve the shortage of qualified interpreters?StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominicLaporteDominic-LaporteInterventionMr. Dominic Laporte: (1215)[Translation]I will let Mr. Ball answer, as he may know more than I do about what has already been done.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1215)[Translation]Mr. Julian, we do this in some specific cases, such as for rather rare languages for which there are no resources in Canada.On the other hand, we have not yet done it for the daily or weekly needs of the House of Commons. However, it could be something to consider.StaffingTranslation and interpretation servicesDominicLaportePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1215)[Translation]Thank you.MatthewBallAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1215)[Translation]Mr. Holland, you now have the floor.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1215)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I just want to start by thanking the House administration interpretative services. An enormous amount of effort has gone into expanding interpretation services to improve quality and deal with the concerns of members. I want to acknowledge that work. I want to acknowledge that we've seen service standards improve. Quality is actually better than it was during the pandemic, which is important. We often forget that even prior to hybrid we had an enormous number of witnesses who were participating virtually. An enormous amount of the volume that the House was already dealing with was at a distance. The improvement of that was important not only for the contemporary circumstance where we have hybrid sittings, but of course it's also important with respect to the witnesses that already existed. Mr. Speaker, I just want to be plain on this. We spend about 50% of BOIE talking about interpretation services. It is incredibly important, and I don't want to diminish that. It is exceptionally important that those services are available and that we are able to conduct our business in both languages, but I am anxious to find a way, hopefully, to not have this become a one-hour standing item on every meeting. Maybe what we can do is give this a little breathing room to be able to look at the changes and the work that's being done and come back in time to have a bit of an evaluation of how that's working.There's one thing I think would be helpful. There were 13 different instances that were enumerated where interpretation was stopped due to a feeling that the meeting couldn't continue because of the quality of the audio. Then, in a subsequent review, there wasn't really a finding that something was going on with that audio. Because the audio is registered, maybe it would even be appropriate for us to hear what those problems are, in instances where audio is stopped and where interpretation isn't able to be provided. We could go and receive that, as a whip's office, and hear that audio, so we can specifically go and talk to the member about what the problem was. We could sort of forensically dive into that and hear in real terms what is happening with that audio and what concern may be there.Of course, the service standard we want to deliver on.... As I speak in person right here and now, I am speaking through technology that goes into a soundproof booth. There is a digitization of my voice that is occurring, even as I am here in person. It seems to me that it's a reasonable objective—or at least it should be the objective—to get to a service standard as quickly as possible where if you were to put me, like the Coke and Pepsi taste challenge, in a soundproof booth and I could listen to audio that came in virtually and came from in-person, the sources of those would be indistinguishable. Obviously, that's our goal.Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just really want to take the opportunity to thank House administration interpretive services for its work. Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1215)[English] Very good. [Translation]Ms. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.MarkHollandHon.AjaxClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1215)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The Chief Government Whip and the Government House Leader tell us often enough that they are weary of discussing this important issue. However, until the problem is resolved and it is going to prevent parliamentarians from doing their job properly, and until the needs are met, I think we will unfortunately have to continue to talk about it.I commend the work of Mr. Aubé and his team, the clerks and the Translation Bureau, because I know it is quite a challenge. We are making history. We need everyone's participation and co‑operation so that parliamentarians can do their job properly while ensuring the health and safety of our interpreters. This is quite a challenge. When we make changes, we have to be patient. I therefore invite my colleagues to be patient and consider that everything needs to be done properly.My questions will be about the virtual committee dashboard: is it time to talk about it? Can we discuss items 3a and 3b together?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1220)[Translation]I think it's all part of the same topic, so we can naturally move from one point to another, as long as the questions are answered. That's what's important.You may continue, Ms. DeBellefeuille.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1220)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I would say we’re talking for nothing, because if I believe the dashboard submitted to us for the period ending on December 31, there are no more problems.I gave each member of the Board our own version of the dashboard, which starts on January 18. This brief document, which I tabled in both official languages and everyone has in hand, including the principal clerk, lists all kinds of problems, be they technical difficulties, interpretation problems or bad equipment. We can see that, every day, many committee meetings were interrupted to varying degrees because of various problems. Very sincerely, when I look at our dashboard, I don’t feel reassured, because almost all of those committee meetings were interrupted.Because I am more of a solutions kind of person, I want to raise awareness among clerks and others because we decided together to make an effort to increase the number of witnesses appearing in person. We know the best solution to protect our interpreters is on-site participation. We cannot refuse virtual participation, because it existed already before the pandemic and will continue. However, before the pandemic, 70% of people testified in person, whereas 30% did so virtually by videoconferencing, as we used to call it back then.With everything we’ve been through over the last two weeks, what is the clerks’ action plan? What are their instructions? What do they plan to do to reverse this trend, which is hovering around 60‑40, so that in the next dashboard, we see it moving in the right direction? I’d like to know what concrete measures they want to implement, mainly for witnesses, who participate in our meetings more than any others.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1220)[Translation]Mr. McDonald, you have the floor.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1220)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Mrs. DeBellefeuille, thank you for your question.I’d like to seize the opportunity to mention that, for the first time, we included graph 6 in the dashboard. This table includes information on the number of witnesses who appeared in person before committees. We see that the trend changed in December, due to rather specific reasons. First of all, committees were studying bills, which often requires departmental witnesses to appear. Then, when committees were looking at appropriations, departmental officials were often called on to testify before committees. We therefore saw a trend, and it will be interesting to see if it’s maintained or not in the next dashboard.To answer your question more directly, I’d say that there are many possible measurements.We’re currently reviewing invitations sent to witnesses. At the start of the invitation, we almost always offer witnesses the choice of appearing in person or virtually. According to the motion passed by the House on April 6, 2022, witnesses still have a choice and the final decision is theirs, even if committees can inform the clerk they prefer to invite witnesses to appear in person.Often, there are reasons underpinning witnesses’ choices. For those already in the national capital, it’s much easier to get to Parliament to testify. However, for those who live in Vancouver or other areas, travel is longer. That’s a factor to take into account when it’s time to choose between going to Ottawa, which is always a possibility, or appearing remotely.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1225)[Translation]Mr. McDonald, what I’m saying is there is a way of preparing the invitations to raise awareness among our witnesses about the fact that we are experiencing a problematic health and safety situation. In my opinion, witnesses will certainly respond to this sensitive issue. Some can therefore choose to travel instead of testifying virtually. Obviously, we understand long distances and everything they imply in terms of factors to take into consideration.However, my opinion is that we should all work together to increase the rate of in-person witness appearances. This committee has held many meetings and therefore heard from many witnesses, between 2,000 and 3,000. I think we may be able to reduce the number of those appearing virtually. I also understand that is an objective for your team.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1225)[Translation]Yes, we are following this information closely, and that’s one of the reasons we now include it in the dashboard.The other thing to note is that, after receiving information from the Translation Bureau about headsets and microphones, I sent a letter to all committee chairs. I pointed out that committees always have the possibility of asking witnesses to appear in person. It can also cut down the time dedicated to conducting sound tests and improving sound quality.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1225)[Translation]The table we just submitted to you, and I invite my colleagues, especially the whips, to read and consult, shows that clerks don’t conduct preliminary sound tests. For example, during the February 1 meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, we noted, “sound tests not done.”It is also possible to forget to do the tests. Nonetheless, what measures are you putting in place to make sure your clerks follow the sound test process? How are you making sure to follow up closely with members of your team?Translation and interpretation servicesIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1225)[Translation]We will make sure to follow up with our clerks to remind everyone of the importance of conducting the tests.We are also working closely with Mr. Aubé’s team, the people in the room and those assigned to technical support. We are also working with the Translation Bureau and the interpretation team to see how to improve the process.We are studying this closely. In fact, we talked about it earlier this week. We want to see our processes improve specifically in this area over the coming weeks. Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1225)[Translation]I hope my colleagues aren’t becoming too impatient with my questions.Is it true that members participating remotely, either in the House of Commons or on committees, don’t do sound tests before taking the floor?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1225)[Translation]For a while now, yes. A test system is always available for members. They can access it simply by contacting an IT ambassador. Since members often participate in meetings, however, at a certain point these tests were deemed less necessary. However, we are currently looking into the issue again.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1225)[Translation]Is it also true that interpreters don’t participate in sound tests, and that only IT staff do them with witnesses?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1225)[Translation]I will ask the Translation Bureau team to discuss it and add it if necessary.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1225)[Translation]If I may add something, there was a time when interpreters participated actively in sound tests. At one point, they were excluded, but we are currently reviewing the process for them to participate again.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentIanMcDonaldClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1225)[Translation]Mr. Speaker, allow me to add a point.I heard Mr. Holland’s statement earlier. I think it’s not efficient to conduct these tests without interpreters if, once the meeting starts, they deem the sound to be inadequate, contrary to the IT staff’s opinion. Both the IT staff and interpreters should conduct these tests at the same time, so that both parties can confirm at the start of the meeting whether the sound is adequate. It would save both the IT staff and the Translation Bureau a lot of time dedicated to analyzing each event, since both parties would be partners up at the outset and agree the test was successful. That’s what I’m proposing, and I’m trying to convince my colleagues. It would be a good solution.As you’ve seen for yourself, I raised a point of order in the House of Commons, because a member participating remotely asked a question without his headset. No one advised the interpreters. No process is in place to check if the equipment is adequate.Mr. McDonald, how are we going to conduct these sound tests at committees and in the House of Commons? What will the process be? If we don’t conduct the tests with members, how can we know they don’t have the right equipment?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentMatthewBallIanMcDonaldIanMcDonaldIan-McDonaldInterventionMr. Ian McDonald: (1230)[Translation]When interpreters participate in sound tests, time available for committee meetings is correspondingly shortened. At one point, we had a discussion with our Translation Bureau partners to see how to grant a little more time to committee, because we often lacked the resources to extend meetings. In the fall of 2021, during the election, it was decided that it would be enough for the technical team to conduct sound tests. That way, committees would be able to benefit from a little more time. This decision was therefore made in the interest of efficiency and giving the most time possible to committee meetings.Due to the incidents we have seen recently, however, I think it’s important to return to this practice. We therefore requested it several weeks ago, before the House even resumed its proceedings. I know the Bureau is discussing it with the interpretation team. We are also reviewing the issue with our colleagues to see how to return to this practice.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1230)[Translation]Mr. Aubé, do you have anything to add?Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentIanMcDonaldStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1230)[Translation]To answer Mrs. DeBellefeuille’s question regarding the House, both the procedural clerk’s team and my own team are currently looking into microphone use in the House to provide this information in real time. As always, we leave it up to each whip to manage their members, but we are also looking into different mechanisms to provide you with this information, such as the dashboard, which you already have.Translation and interpretation servicesVirtual ParliamentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1230)[Translation]I believe there are no more comments or questions.In my opinion, we should all try to set up something that works, as these efforts can attest.I hope the problems will be resolved soon, and that things can work for everyone, be they members or interpreters. Our democracy has to function. When we have a good understanding of what’s being said, our decisions and legislation make sense.[English] We are going to adjourn this session.I want to thank everyone for coming out.Thank you to our witnesses.Again, Monsieur Laporte, congratulations on your new position.This session has now ended.StéphanAubé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0171st SESSION44th PARLIAMENTWednesday, December 7, 2022Le mercredi 7 décembre 2022Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTDecember 7, 2022CommitteeNUMBER 017NUMBER 017NUMÉRO 017017071220222022/12/07 16:10:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE144AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1605)[Translation] I call the meeting to order.First on the agenda we have the minutes of the previous meeting.[English] Are there any questions or comments on item number one? No.On item number two, business arising from previous meetings, are there any questions? No. Item number three concerns the translation bureau and resource utilization for simultaneous interpretation. [Translation]Presenting on that topic are Nathalie Laliberté and Matthew Ball.[English]I'll let you do your presentation, and I'm sure we'll have a few questions once you've finished.Thank you.NathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté (Acting Chief Executive Officer, Translation Bureau): (1605)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.As the acting chief executive officer of the translation bureau, I am happy to be here along with Matthew Ball, vice-president of service to Parliament and interpretation.Please note that the new CEO will be appointed in the coming weeks. Honourable members of the board, I would like to begin by assuring you that we fully understand how important the availability of quality interpretation is for Parliament to run smoothly, and how the shortage of interpreters not only impedes your meetings but makes it difficult to respect language rights. The bureau is proud to have been able to provide essential services since the beginning of the pandemic. Our on-site interpreters responded to a 20% increase in demand for interpretation services in the House of Commons despite a 25% reduction in capacity due to a decrease in the number of suppliers. That said, we're making every effort to cover more events. We're looking at every possible option to address the labour shortage, and we're continuing to take decisive action to ensure that we will have more interpreters available by the beginning of the next parliamentary session. Given the varying availability and the services they must also provide to the Senate, the Privy Council Office and other clients such as the Public Order Emergency Commission, our complement of approximately 70 staff and 60 freelance interpreters assigned to Parliament concurrently cover 57 House committee meetings per week. (1610)[Translation]We will know the results of our recent accreditation exam by the holidays and will offer a job or a contract to all successful candidates. We are currently in discussions with procurement and security screening authorities to expedite the onboarding process, so that these new interpreters can begin serving the House as soon as the new session begins on January 30.In addition, we are working with the House administration to enable interpreters located outside parliamentary facilities to provide interpretation. As this is a new service, there are contractual and operational details to be ironed out, but by the next session, we expect that we'll be able to provide off-site interpretation for two events per day, as requested by the House administration.While increasing our capacity, we continue to improve occupational health and safety for our interpreters, which remains our priority. Still, the best way to protect interpreters is to ensure that all meeting participants use proper microphones, a precaution that also reduces service interruptions. To this end, we request your co‑operation in making the use of proper microphones mandatory.Working conditions for interpreters are difficult, as incident reports from the last two years show. The more we improve conditions together, the better interpreters will be able to meet the needs of Parliament by providing the quality interpretation services that you have come to expect, and that you and the Canadian public deserve.Thank you again for your support, your understanding and your patience.Thank you, as well, to the interpreters providing today's interpretation services, Claire, Sharon and Tara.Mr. Ball and I are now available to answer your questions.Translation and interpretation servicesTranslation BureauAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1610)[Translation]Thank you.[English]Are there questions or comments?[Translation]Go ahead, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.NathalieLalibertéClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Whip of the Bloc Québécois): (1610)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon, Ms. Laliberté. Welcome to the Board of Internal Economy.I have a few questions for you.Can you refresh my memory as to when you sent your last letter to the board? I don't have it in front of me.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1610)[Translation]The letter was signed on November 30, 2022.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1610)[Translation]I actually wanted to point out that you didn't date the letter you sent us. I don't know whether that's something you usually do.You're saying that November 30 was the date of the letter.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1610)[Translation]We use an electronic signature, so the letter is date-stamped when it's signed. We usually add the date as well, so it was really an oversight in this case. I take full responsibility. It's not standard practice, I assure you.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1610)[Translation]All right.My fellow Board of Internal Economy members know what I'm like, and they know me to be a pretty candid person. I must tell you how disappointed I was that it took you as long as it did to reply to the letter we sent the translation bureau in late September. The Board of Internal Economy has been discussing this issue for months and months. The issue is a top priority for us, one that requires urgent attention, so it's hard to understand why it took you so long to reply and, above all, to provide answers.To this day, the interpretation capacity needed to serve a hybrid Parliament—with more than 57 events per week—is a big question mark, because we don't have a needs analysis. We wanted to understand how you go about your human resource planning, but I, personally, am still not satisfied with your answers.Now, having heard your opening remarks, I am optimistic that you will be able to shed more light on the issue for us.According to your written statement, you expect to have enough interpretation capacity to provide services for 59 events, up from 57, by January 30, thanks to new interpreters who will have passed the accreditation exam. Is that correct?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1615)[Translation]You asked about a number of things. In terms of how long it took us to reply to the Board's letter, I will say that we took the time to examine the situation carefully and provide adequate answers.Keep in mind that the translation bureau has a number of priorities. As we speak, our top two priorities are service continuity, so continuing to provide the interpretation and translation services you are entitled to, and, of course, the health and safety of our interpreters.At the same time, we are working on other initiatives, including increasing the number of new interpreters and carrying out research to enhance interpreter health and safety.In light of that, we replied to the board's letter as soon as we could.Sorry, but I forgot the rest of your question.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1615)[Translation]In your speaking notes, it says that you are confident you will be able to provide services for two additional events per day, as requested by the House of Commons, taking into account the results of the accreditation exam, security checks for the new interpreters and so forth. That's something you commit to. Currently, you provide services for 57 events, and you are pledging that you will have interpretation capacity to cover 59 events as of January 30.Is that correct?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1615)[Translation]Our ability to cover two more events is actually thanks to the fact that interpreters outside the parliamentary precinct will be able to provide services.With respect to the accreditation process, we will have additional resources available to serve Parliament beginning on January 30. We will have the capacity to cover at least 59 events, but we are talking about 57 committees. We will be sharing our service availability with the House and Senate administrations, and they will determine what the priorities are, committee meetings, caucus meetings or whatever else. We will be providing our service availability to you at that time.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1615)[Translation]I'm not sure I understand.Are you committing to providing coverage for 59 events thanks to new interpreters? You don't know the results of the exam yet and you don't know whether those new interpreters will choose to work at the House of Commons, committees or elsewhere. You are nevertheless committing to covering two additional events per day. Is that right?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1615)[Translation]I'd like to clarify something, if I may.Coverage for the two additional events will be provided by interpreters who already have bureau accreditation but do not currently work at Parliament, because they live outside the national capital region and don't want to travel to Ottawa. Those interpreters are already accredited. Coverage for the 59 events does not include interpreters whose exams are currently being marked and who are working towards accreditation.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1615)[Translation]I see. That clears things up a bit.The Board of Internal Economy asked for a pilot project back in the spring. In your November 30 letter, however, you say this: “Should the House decide to go forward”. I take that to mean you didn't understand the House administration's request and you are just starting to set up the pilot project. We approved the pilot project for off-site interpretation back in May, to allow accredited interpreters to provide services remotely. Your November letter makes it sound as though you are still waiting for the request. There seems to be some confusion. We have been waiting a long time to have off-site interpreters provide coverage for more events.Why isn't it already in place? We instructed the House administration in the spring to work with the translation bureau to set that up.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1615)[Translation] We worked with the House administration to set up the pilot. We had to conduct testing.To your point about the confusion or miscommunication, if I can call it that, I would say that the administration wanted to know how many interpreters we could provide and we were waiting for the administration to tell us how many interpreters it needed. All of that has been clarified.We put out a call for interest, and we have started to receive responses from interested freelancers. I can confirm that we will be able to meet the House's needs. We were asked to provide coverage for two additional events per day, from Monday to Thursday, once Parliament returns until it rises in June.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1620)[Translation]That's great.I have one last question.When committees meet informally, for example, when we host international delegations, the committee clerks or chairs are often unable to get interpretation coverage, but the meetings usually take place anyways.With your additional resources—whether off-site interpreters or new interpreters—will you have enough capacity to meet all the needs of the House and committees, including informal meetings?Besides the two additional events you will be covering, how much extra interpretation capacity do you expect to have? I'm talking about the new interpreters who passed the exam and are in the process of being hired.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1620)[Translation]To answer your question about how many more interpreters we will have, I would say that we are almost finished marking the accreditation exams. We should be done by the end of next week.The accreditation exam is a pretty complex test. It's a 30‑minute recording for each candidate, and we have to assess the candidate's fluency and vocabulary, the clarity of the message and other factors.It's important to manage expectations. A total of 69 candidates took the exam—21 of them are from other countries and eight are already working for the translation bureau as interns. That means 40 new Canadian candidates took the accreditation exam, and those exams have been marked. I wouldn't want to give you any numbers today, because I want to wait until we've finished all the marking and grading. I will say, though, that we will have more interpreters who will be able to provide coverage by the time Parliament resumes.Successful candidates who obtain their accreditation will be offered a contract and will hopefully want to work for us. As I said in my opening remarks, we are conducting the necessary security checks and following the contracting process, but we are confident that it's going to happen. We are also planning onboarding sessions for new employees, to show them the parliamentary facilities where they will be working.Basically, those efforts are under way, and we expect to welcome more interpreters. That said, it will be up to the House and Senate administrations to decide on the types of events to which those new interpreters will be assigned.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1620)[Translation]Excellent. Thank you.I'll follow up during my next turn, if need be, Mr. Chair.NathalieLalibertéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1620)[Translation]Go ahead, Mr. Julian.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House leader of the New Democratic Party): (1620)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Ms. Laliberté. The work you're doing is extremely important. The dedication and professionalism of the interpreters who work at the House of Commons is quite impressive. Of course, we want to ensure that their health and safety is always protected. We also want to figure out a way to address the lack of interpretation capacity we are currently facing. The fact that interpreters are being overworked is something else we are concerned about.I want to follow up on the exam candidates. You said that 21 of them were from other countries. Did you seek out those candidates? Did you encourage them to take the exam?Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1620)[Translation]We did a lot of advertising leading up to the accreditation exam, namely through the associations and on social media. The answer to your question is yes, we did seek out the candidates.Their exams will be marked. We are working with our colleagues in other departments to figure out how we can hire or contract people who are outside the country. As you probably know, it's an arduous process. We have to go through a lot of steps before those successful candidates can come here, so the process won't be done before Parliament resumes. It can take up to a year to hire or contract people who are abroad. That's why we marked the exams of the other candidates first.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]How many of your current interpreters are from other countries?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1625)[Translation]I'm going to ask Mr. Ball whether he knows the answer.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball (Vice-President, Services to Parliament and Interpretation Sector, Translation Bureau): (1625)[Translation]I couldn't say with any accuracy. I'd have to look at our personnel files to know how many exactly.Do you mean staff interpreters?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]I assume you have to go through the same process as any other business. If the candidate is successful, you request a labour market impact assessment. Then, an immigration application is duly filed. You have to go through the same steps as any other business or organization dealing with a lack of skilled labour. That's why it takes at least a year before those successful candidates can start working here. Do I have that right?Translation and interpretation servicesMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1625)[Translation]Yes, it's a complex process. Hiring people who are outside the country is a complex endeavour, and many of the factors are not within the translation bureau's mandate or control. As Ms. Laliberté just said, we are working with other departments, but the fact remains, it's a long and complicated process. Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]If I understand correctly, 40 of the candidates do not work for the translation bureau currently but are in Canada, and 33 of them passed the exam.Translation and interpretation servicesMatthewBallNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1625)[Translation]No, no.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]You mentioned the numbers 33 and 40Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1625)[Translation]I want to be especially careful when it comes to numbers.I did not say how many candidates had passed the accreditation exam. I'm not in a position to get into those numbers yet.This is what I said. Of the 69 candidates who took the accreditation exam, eight are already working for the bureau as interns—which means they are in training—and 40 live in Canada. In other words, the maximum number of prospective new Canadian interpreters is 40. However, I did not say how many of those 40 candidates passed the exam.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]So far, 33 of the exams have been marked.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1625)[Translation]No. The exams of the candidates who live in Canada have been marked. The exams of the interpreters working for the bureau as interns have also been marked. We are in the process of marking the exams of the candidates who live in other countries, and we are almost done, in fact.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]All right. I understand why you're reluctant to give us any numbers, but it would really help with our planning.Can I assume that the 33 candidates whose exams were marked all passed the exam?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1625)[Translation]No.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]What percentage of the candidates did not pass the exam?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1625)[Translation]Right now, I am relying on my team and the panel who are in the process of marking the accreditation exams. By next week, I should be able to say exactly how many candidates were successful.Currently, we have three pools of candidates. The candidates we already know have passed the exam make up the first pool. The candidates who did poorly on the exam make up the second pool. The candidates in the third pool are the ones who fall in the middle, and we are assessing things to determine where exactly the quality standard should be. We don't want you to call us back next year or the year after to tell us that the interpretation quality isn't where it should be. We need to make sure that the interpreters who obtain their accreditation have all the skills they need to do the job and to provide the service you are entitled to receive.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]Yes, I understand. Thank you very much.I'm sure you can appreciate, however, that it's a bigger problem if three of the 33 candidates passed the exam than if 25 of the 33 passed it.Right now, we are aiming to have more interpretation capacity by the end of January, because that's when demand will be much greater. I don't think we understand all the steps in the process at this time. We realize that the evaluation process isn't straightforward and that you then have to deal with the security element. Obviously, the process is quite complicated for a candidate who lives in another country.You mentioned two additional events per week. How many more interpreters are you evaluating to meet that demand?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1630)[Translation]As I said, the two additional events will be covered by off-site interpreters. They are already accredited, so the accreditation exam process has no impact whatsoever on service coverage for the two additional events.How many more events will we be able to cover following the accreditation process? It will be another week or two before we know how many interpreters we're going to have.The rule of thumb is that, in order to cover a two-hour committee meeting, we need three interpreters. Generally, interpreters provide services for two committee meetings a day, and that of course depends on the length of the committee meeting, caucus meeting or whatever the event may be. In general, though, we need to have three interpreters per committee meeting, and one interpreter can interpret for two committee meetings per day. In order to cover two additional meetings per day, we need three interpreters per meeting.Once candidates obtain their accreditation, we will try to bring them on board and offer them contracts, but everything will depend on their availability. Will they want to work for us full time, Monday to Friday, or just a few days a week? We'll have to see. That's what we will be working on in the next few weeks.Translation and interpretation servicesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1630)[Translation]I understand all that.We are nevertheless still in need of answers. We are in the process of figuring out what our options are starting at the end of January, but we still don't know when the interpreters will be available. We need to know what percentage of candidates passed the exam and how long it will be before the new interpreters start working. I look at this, and it's all interesting information, but I'm still in the dark as to how many new interpreters we will have at the end of January.The sooner we have the information to better estimate how many new interpreters we could have at the end of January, the better it will be. Much of the Board of Internal Economy's attention has been focused on this issue for months. We still have unanswered questions.Thank you for trying to answer our questions today.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1630)[Translation]We now go to Mr. MacKinnon.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon (Chief Government Whip): (1630)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Welcome to the translation bureau officials, Ms. Laliberté and Mr. Ball.I certainly won't rehash all of the good points raised by my fellow members.At the end of the day, we are trying to meet the needs of the Parliament of Canada, which, admittedly, are growing. Let's face it, the translation bureau has struggled to meet that demand because of working conditions and the current labour shortage. Occupational health and safety is another concern. Those are the reasons why we are in this boat today.Are you confident that you will be able to meet the Parliament of Canada's ever-growing demand for services? Given the other requirements and demands that the bureau has to contend with, will you have the capacity to meet the growing needs of Parliament?Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1630)[Translation]Yes, we are confident that we will have new interpreters for the end of January. Will we have enough to satisfy all the requirements? Probably not. Canada is suffering from a serious shortage of interpreters. Only two universities offer master's programs in interpretation, so the number of interpretation graduates every year is very small.That doesn't mean we are giving up. Those who do not pass the accreditation exam will be offered skills training to help them pass the exam. That will happen in the summer. Naturally, when Parliament is sitting, we want our interpreters to be interpreting.In addition, we may have prospective interpreters among our existing translators. In January, we will be holding an open house to encourage translators to apply to the master's program.We are still keeping up our efforts to recruit as many interpreters as possible. We will have more interpreters in January, but we'll have to see whether they are enough to meet the demand. It's important to be realistic, given the labour shortage affecting the sector.Translation and interpretation servicesStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1635)[Translation]The initiatives you just mentioned are new recruitment efforts, are they not?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1635)[Translation]That's correct.Translation and interpretation servicesStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1635)[Translation]You said there were two universities offering master's programs in interpretation. Might other institutions be interested in catering to the need for more trained professionals? Is there enough demand for other universities to follow suit and provide interpretation programs?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1635)[Translation]That's a great question.There is actually a group of universities looking into that. They're trying to determine whether Canada needs more programs. Naturally, the professional associations and others are pushing the institutions to develop the next generation and build new interpretation capacity. We'll have to see what happens. We, on our end, engage collaboratively and take part in meetings.We genuinely hope to have a larger pool of interpreters so that we can serve you better. I think we all want the same thing. The more interpreters we have, the better we can serve you.Translation and interpretation servicesStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1635)[Translation]Without sacrificing quality, of course.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1635)[Translation]Quality remains our number one requirement.Translation and interpretation servicesStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1635)[Translation]You won't be lowering your quality standards, then.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1635)[Translation]We won't be lowering our quality standards.Translation and interpretation servicesStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1635)[Translation]Ms. Laliberté, I think what the board is looking for is some reassurance. We want to be sure that you have a plan that you are following to meet the Parliament of Canada's needs as well as your other requirements. We trust you, but know that we are keeping a very close eye on the situation.In no way, shape or form can the services provided to the Parliament of Canada to ensure the equality of both official languages be compromised. I think it would really reassure the committee if you could say for certain that the translation bureau is paying careful attention to the matter, that the issue is high on the bureau's list of priorities and that the bureau is confident its efforts will be successful.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1635)[Translation]Yes, we are confident that we will be able to increase our service capacity. As I already pointed out, quality remains one of our most important requirements. We are making every possible effort to cultivate the next generation of interpreters and convince people to enrol in the programs.I'll give you an example. For this year's accreditation exam, we wanted as many candidates as possible to be successful. Taking an exam is never easy. We worked with York University's Glendon Campus, in Toronto, to deliver two workshops to help candidates prepare for the exam. We hope the workshops helped candidates pass the exam.We are always looking for ways to grow our capacity so we can serve you effectively.Translation and interpretation servicesStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1635)[Translation]You're stepping up your efforts.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1635)[Translation]Exactly. I can assure you that this is one of our top priorities.Translation and interpretation servicesStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1635)[Translation]Do you have any comments on off-site interpretation? Is it possible to provide off-site interpretation services without compromising quality?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1635)[Translation]Off-site interpretation carries risks from a sound quality standpoint. That's why it's imperative that virtual meeting participants use the recommended equipment for those types of meetings, namely a microphone or a headset with the right microphone. That goes a long way towards minimizing service interruptions, and ensuring the health and safety of interpreters.We work closely with the House administration to create the best possible environment, so things run smoothly both for interpreters and for meeting participants.Translation and interpretation servicesStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1635)[Translation]You are giving us some news today that we can take comfort in, as far as the beginning of next year goes. We are asking you to keep up your efforts. We will be keeping a very close eye on the situation as the year goes on.Thank you for your efforts.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1640)[Translation]Go ahead, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.StevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.To wrap up, I have two questions for Ms. Laliberté.The House administration, with the help of all the party whips, has gone to great lengths to educate members on the importance of wearing a headset. I think we've been able to make a difference. Now, most members wear their headsets, as do the witnesses. We use a dashboard to track the situation closely. We are very diligent about how we inform witnesses and members of the importance of wearing their headsets. That is really the key to protecting the health and safety of interpreters.I recently learned that the same pool of interpreters serves both the House and the Senate. In the course of our study, we found out that the Senate didn't follow the same practices we did, in terms of requiring people to wear headsets and conducting pre-meeting sound checks. We are very diligent on our side. At the beginning of every meeting, we ask the committee chair whether the sound checks have been conducted successfully for all the participants. We don't want witnesses appearing without the proper equipment, because, if they do, it could lead to serious injury for the interpreters.What sorts of discussions are you having with the Senate administration, so that the Senate follows the same practices as the House, thereby ensuring the health and safety of interpreters?Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1640)[Translation]We have an excellent relationship with the Senate administration. We work in a spirit of co‑operation. We hold the same types of meetings with the Senate administration as we do with the House administration. In fact, we often meet with both administrations together.We communicate our requirements and best practices to the Senate administration as well. It's up to the clerks and senators to follow them, in accordance with their practices.I would say that we have a very good relationship with Senate administration.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1640)[Translation]That's great.Ms. Laliberté, clearly, people need to be encouraged to wear the proper equipment and follow good practice. Otherwise, they tend to forget in the heat of the moment. That's why we have to be diligent and work together as a team to make sure the staff who work with the interpreters do their part and stand behind the decisions we make.As you know, the Board of Internal Economy wrote to the Senate urging it to follow the House's lead in order to protect interpreters in the performance of their duties.I didn't quite catch something earlier. I don't want to get lost in a maze of numbers, because every time we talk numbers with translation bureau officials, confusion ensues. I'm going to tell you what I heard, and you tell me whether I've got it wrong.My understanding is that you are making significant efforts so you can provide coverage for more events. Basically, the pilot project we approved will mean that two additional meetings can be held per day as of January 30, thanks to the services of accredited interpreters working off-site. It will be up to the House administration to determine which two additional events those interpreters will be assigned to.Do I have that right?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1640)[Translation]Yes, absolutely.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1640)[Translation]Very good.As we speak, you are making arrangements to provide service coverage for two additional events per day, but you haven't yet been told where those interpreters will be assigned. You don't know whether they will be covering parliamentary committee meetings, caucus meetings or other types of meetings. The House administration has not formally submitted any such request to you.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1640)[Translation]I don't believe so, but I'm going to ask Mr. Ball to confirm.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1640)[Translation]The Translation Bureau works in tandem with the House Administration. The bureau doesn't determine where interpreters will be assigned. We respond to demand as defined by the House Administration. As always, the bureau will send its interpreters to work wherever the need arises.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1640)[Translation]That's fine. I will have other opportunities to ask questions of the House Administration to understand why they determined that it would be two more meetings and what choices it will make. For now, I will focus on you, since you're here.I have one last question to ask you.I share my colleague Mr. MacKinnon's positive outlook. However, as you've explained to us, I do understand that a number of candidates who have taken the exam simply didn't pass it, while others came very close to passing it and, if given a helping hand, will be able to pass next time. In the end, a small pool of candidates will have passed the exam.In addition, we have no guarantee that after the new interpreters receive their official accreditation, they will want to work for parliamentary committees or debates. They may choose to practice in other places.Is it a faux pas for me to say that?Translation and interpretation servicesMatthewBallNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1645)[Translation]No, you're absolutely right. The freelancers may choose to work in Parliament or elsewhere. In addition, they will give us their availability based on what they prefer to do. So we will know more in early January.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1645)[Translation]So, let's say that at the first Board of Internal Economy meeting in early January, you're asked a question about the Translation Bureau's service capacity. That's what we've been trying to find out for the past few months. At that time, will you be able to tell us that you can cover two more events using remote interpretation and specify what services you will be able to offer us once you know the exact number of interpreters who have passed the exam and chosen to work for Parliament? Will you be able to provide that kind of answer?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1645)[Translation]Yes.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1645)[Translation]To that end, should the House Administration submit a very specific request to you so that you respond just as specifically regarding your capacity?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1645)[Translation]Based on how we currently operate, we provide the capacity we have. We work with both the House Administration and the Senate Administration at the same time. We inform them of our interpreting capacity and then they decide what events will be held with interpretation.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1645)[Translation]Perfect.I don't know if you're aware, but we asked the House Administration to do some requirements modelling for a hybrid Parliament that would sit until midnight, in addition to committees. We want to know what capacity would be needed to cover all the events, without having to cancel any.Have you started thinking about a model that could work that way?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1645)[Translation]Mr. Ball, can you answer this question?Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtMatthewBallMatthewBallMatthew-BallInterventionMr. Matthew Ball: (1645)[Translation]Some problems arise for us when it comes to determining the number of resources available. As you mentioned earlier, once a candidate has passed the accreditation exam, they are eligible to provide services to parliamentarians. However, we don't know how many hours or days a week the individual will want to work, or if it will be full-time. We will have conversations with all candidates who pass the exam to see if they want to come work for us as interpreters on a permanent basis.Still, there are many factors that are beyond the Translation Bureau's control, but we do everything we can to encourage and incentivize interpreters to work in Parliament. People in this field are aware of the pressing needs of Parliament. We hope we can encourage them to provide as much service as possible, whether as freelancers or as permanent staff members.We don't have specific numbers at this time, but we will have those conversations with candidates.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1645)[Translation]Actually, my question is quite specific, Mr. Ball.For example, today, a take-note debate is planned for the House, so members will be sitting later than usual. Committee meetings are also planned. How many interpreters are needed to finish the day without having to cancel any events?The question is quite mathematical in nature. I'd like to know how we can avoid cancelling committee meetings when the government decides that the House will sit until midnight. I'm looking for that magic number, how many interpreters required each day to keep us from having to cancel any events.Today, the House will be holding a take-note debate and it will sit until 10 p.m., and there will also be committee meetings. How many interpreters do we require to meet needs for the entire day, right now?If you don't know the answer off the cuff, it's no big deal. However, I would like that information in writing.Translation and interpretation servicesMatthewBallNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1645)[Translation]Demand varies from day to day, based on what's happening in Parliament.The availability of our freelancers also varies from day to day. We ask that our freelancers give us their availability for a six-month period. Some do, while others prefer to let us know when they're available on a monthly basis.Where our staff is concerned, there have been workplace health and safety incidents. When our staff members obtain a medical certificate, we're required to reduce their hours or assign them to other duties. That can also vary from week to week.Therefore, it's impossible for us to give you a magic number representing needs on a regular basis. On the one hand, demand in Parliament varies from day to day. For example, Mondays are quite different from Wednesdays. On the other, the availability of our resources varies each day.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1650)[Translation]Do you have any other questions, Mrs. DeBellefeuille?NathalieLalibertéClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1650)[Translation]I will try one last time, and stop there.I don't understand what you're saying, Ms. Laliberté. You can tell me how many interpreters are on duty today, can you not?Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1650)[Translation]I can tell you for today, yes, and probably for the rest of the week as well. However, if you ask me how many interpreters will be available on any given day a month from now, it will be hard to say. We'll have to see which interpreters are available on that specific day.Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1650)[Translation]Okay, thank you.I will stop here, Mr. Chair.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1650)[Translation]Are there any other questions?[English]Maybe I'll ask a couple of questions, if that's okay. I'll take the prerogative of the chair. I'm really uncomfortable asking this question, because it's almost a question that would be asked of management if we were running the organization. We're receiving a service. I'd like to say we're purchasing the service, but the service is paid for by Procurement Canada. You're responsible for providing that service, so you're responsible for the employees.We're here asking for translation. By law, we're entitled to it. It's something that has to be given to us so that people can, basically, do the job they have to do. Technically, we're indirectly buying a service from your organization. We're not employing individual translators. Is that correct?Translation and interpretation servicesClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1650)[English]That's correct.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1650)[English]Very good. I just want to make sure everybody's clear on that. It's not the House of Commons or the Senate that is hiring translators and then this isn't working.The questions I have pertain to management/employees. When I'm buying a service, it's not for me to say to Bell Canada, “I don't like the way you're installing the fibre in this neighbourhood.” What I can say is, “I won't buy your service, but I'll go to another.” We don't have that luxury right now—or maybe we do. I don't know. We looked at different options, but we didn't find that.My question to you is about your employees, about the employees who are, basically, the service we're buying. I understand that they've cut back. They've reduced their hours on a daily basis. I understand there's extra stress. In interpreting, the capacity is a challenge that I think we all have to face with a lot of things, not only the members but the interpreters.What criteria need to be met or what has to be done so that we can resume the hours of operation for the service that we're indirectly purchasing from you? What is missing, other than interpreters?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1650)[English]We need more interpreters. I need a baby factory of interpreters.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1650)[English]Again, the reduced hours that the interpreters are working is something we look at. I don't want to burn anyone out, but on the other hand, we need that service.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1650)[English]In terms of hours of interpretation, if Parliament was in person—if members of committees or members of the board, if everyone was in person, including witnesses—we could go back to prepandemic hours. The reality is that now we're living with a hybrid mode, so it's very rare that you have a meeting where everyone is in person.The definition of a hybrid meeting, from an interpretation point of view, is being debated now. We're presently negotiating the new collective agreement. We're in mediation right now. I cannot talk about the details, but I'm sure you can appreciate that the terms and conditions for interpreters and the definition of a hybrid meeting are part of those negotiations.The contract for freelancers is expiring at the end of June. The definition of a hybrid meeting and how many hours and how many interpreters per session are also the subjects of negotiations.In the coming weeks we'll have more information. For a hybrid meeting, we'll set whether that means one person is not in the room or maybe 50% are in the room. We'll set that and then the number of hours. We'll be able to assess capacity and plan our schedule accordingly.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1655)[English]How many hours would you be working a day if you were an interpreter?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1655)[English]It's a complex question.For a committee, for regular committee meetings, where we need three interpreters, the interpreters, prepandemic, were doing about six hours of interpretation per day. Because of the connective load associated with remote interpretation, and having looked at what was happening around the world, we've reduced the six hours to four hours. It varies. In general, let's say it's a committee meeting, there would be three interpreters and they would do six hours per meeting. It's been reduced to four hours, so there's been a reduction of capacity by 20%. Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1655)[English] Is that 20% or 30%? Anyway, it's down considerably.That is going to be maintained at four hours for how long? You don't know.Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1655)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. At the moment I cannot talk about details, because the employer is the Treasury Board Secretariat and it's in mediation right now. We have to wait and see how it's going to conclude before we can really talk about it more publicly.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1655)[Translation]Someone also came up with the idea of creating some sort of dashboard that could be used by our staff and yours, and it would provide a snapshot and an idea of what resources are available on any given day. That would help us do some planning, maybe not a month in advance, as you say, but at least a few days in advance.Would you be willing to work with us on that?Translation and interpretation servicesNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalieLalibertéNathalie-LalibertéInterventionMs. Nathalie Laliberté: (1655)[Translation]Yes, Mr. Chair. We could create that in tandem with our colleagues in the House Administration.Translation and interpretation servicesAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1655)[Translation]Excellent.Are there any other questions?Thank you, Mr. Ball and Ms. Laliberté.[English]We'll now go on to item number four, an increase to the parliamentary exchange budget. I believe, Mr. Scheer, you had something on this one. Oh, I'm sorry.[Translation]Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsNathalieLalibertéClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1655)[Translation]Mr. Chair, we have had some short discussions about this agenda item. I would ask you to suspend the meeting so we can talk.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1655)[Translation]All right. How long do you need?ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—Suroît//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35315ClaudeDeBellefeuilleClaude-DeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeBellefeuilleClaude_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: (1655)[Translation]I believe five minutes should do it.AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1655)[Translation]All right. We'll suspend the meeting until 5:05 p.m.ClaudeDeBellefeuilleSalaberry—SuroîtAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1710)[English] We'll reconvene the discussion on item four, which we suspended. Rather than going to a presentation, I believe Mr. MacKinnon has a proposal for us, and then we'll go from there.Mr. MacKinnon.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingStevenMacKinnonHon.Gatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonHon.Steven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven MacKinnon: (1710)[English]Mr. Chair, we're very conscious of the need for the Parliament of Canada to engage diplomatically. We certainly don't want to see any diplomatic opportunity go unaddressed. Bearing in mind that we also want to be responsible with the dollars available, I would like to suggest a “no net new funds” way of doing that. That would be to authorize you, Mr. Chair, to find funds internally—to reallocate funds, if necessary—to address the diplomatic needs of visiting delegations and other important meetings that may be coming up between now and the end of the year, and at the same time invite the administration to come back with a new proposal for next year's budget, keeping in mind all the factors that have been highlighted with respect to the challenges that are being faced.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1710)[Translation]Are there any other comments?[English]Mr. Scheer, are you okay with that?FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsStevenMacKinnonHon.GatineauAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1710)[English]Yes.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1710)[English]I just want to make sure everybody is fine. We have consensus, then, on that proposal. Very good.Now we go to item five, the proposed 2023-24 main estimates. We have Mr. St George, who is the chief financial officer, along with Sylvie Lafontaine, director, decision support and financial planning.Government expendituresMain estimates 2023-2024AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppellePaulSt GeorgePaulSt GeorgePaul-StGeorgeInterventionMr. Paul St George (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1710)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I am submitting the proposed 2023–24 main estimates for the House of Commons for your approval.In accordance with the Parliament of Canada Act, the House of Commons must complete its expenditure estimates for the coming year and submit them to the Treasury Board for tabling along with the main estimates of the Government of Canada. The main estimates are to be submitted to the Treasury Board by December 15, 2022.The total proposed main estimates are $597.1 million, which represents an increase of $34.1 million over the 2022–23 main estimates, which were $562.9 million in total.It should be noted that the estimates do not include funding for parliamentary exchanges.The budget adjustment of $34.1 million is divided into three main line item categories, as shown in the table on the screen. The first relates to initiatives previously approved by the board, for a total of $4.2 million. The second is for cost of living and inflationary increases, totalling $27.1 million. The third amounts to $2.7 million for other items.(1715)[English] With respect to the first category, the board approved several initiatives, found in rows a through e, totalling $4.2 million. For example, last month you were presented with the 2023-25 House of Commons accessibility plan, for which funding of $749,000 was approved. You will find this initiative under 1d.The second category, cost of living and inflationary increases, represents an overall adjustment of $27.1 million.As shown in 2a, an annual adjustment to the members' and House officers' office budgets and travel status expense account has been made based on the adjusted CPI. This is in accordance with a December 2015 board decision. Under category 2b is an additional item approved by the board for the impact of charging centrally the costs related to members' constituency office leases. The last two items are outlined in 2c and 2d and pertain to the members' sessional allowance and House administration salary adjustments.The third category, which represents an increase of $2.7 million, relates to employee benefit plans and an actuarial evaluation adjustment to the pension plans.Mr. Chair, the administration recommends that the board approve the proposed 2023-24 main estimates in the amount of $597.1 million. This concludes my presentation. I welcome any questions the board may have.Government expendituresMain estimates 2023-2024AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1715)[English]Are there any comments? I don't see any. Is everyone fine with this recommendation? I see heads nodding.[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. St George.[English]We have Mr. Robert, who would like to make a statement to us.Go ahead, Mr. Robert.Government expendituresMain estimates 2023-2024PaulSt GeorgeCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert (Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons ): (1715)[Translation]Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity to address the members of the Board of Internal Economy.Five and a half years ago, I was honoured to be appointed to the office of clerk of the House of Commons, the 13th to be appointed since Confederation.Since I took up my duties as clerk, I have made it a central part of my mandate to ensure that the House Administration provides the best possible service to all members of Parliament.My primary objective has been to restructure the House Administration to better support members of Parliament in their evolving roles as both legislators and independent employers. After the Board of Internal Economy approved the required adjustments, the House Administration developed a strategic plan to establish a centralized, cohesive service hub focused on meeting the needs of members. This plan has been our roadmap and is the basis for several milestones over the past several years.The move to the historic Centre Block went smoothly, with no major hitches.The members orientation program has been extensively reviewed to better assist new members and, more recently, to provide more tailored transition services for departing members.In response to the constraints imposed by the pandemic, flash innovations allowed for hybrid sittings and electronic voting.Physical and computer-based changes to the security system improved the protection and safety of members as new risks arose in the workplace.The Sourceplus and customer service teams were trained to facilitate access to quality support.In addition, we've adjusted our relationship with you through regular briefings to better serve the Board of Internal Economy as it fulfills its oversight responsibility.All these initiatives and several others were made possible through the efforts of the House Administration, whose employees are fully engaged and proud of the work they do on your behalf.(1720)[English] Building on the many successes of this strategic plan, we are about to launch the next one, which will guide us into the coming years. This new plan has as its vision “one House, one team”. This simple yet powerful vision reinforces our focus on client service and solidifies the administration's dedication to this goal. To further ensure its success, I believe the new strategic plan should be championed by someone who can carry it through from its beginning to its end. Given this reality, 1 feel that it is an appropriate time for me to step away. I am announcing today that I will retire from the service of the House early in the new year, on Friday, January 13.Though it has not been without its challenges, serving as your Clerk has been an extraordinary privilege. I am most proud to have been part of such a remarkable multidisciplinary team of colleagues in the administration who embody our values of integrity, excellence, collaboration and inclusion. Their steadfast dedication to supporting the House and the work of members, particularly in times of exceptional uncertainty, has driven our shared success. [Translation]I'm confident that by working under the “One House, One Team” vision, the House Administration will maintain this success.[English]Let me reiterate what a great privilege it has been to serve you all, both individually and collectively, as Clerk of the House of Commons.It would be hard to imagine a better way for me to end my 42-year career on the Hill, which started in the Library before I went to the House and then the Senate and finally returned to the House as Clerk.It has been quite a journey, one that has reinforced my admiration for the amazing parliamentary system at the heart of our democracy.Thank you for allowing me to make this decision public by announcing it to you first. [Translation]Thank you.[Applause]Clerk of the House of CommonsRetirement from workAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25452AnthonyRotaHon.Anthony-RotaNipissing—TimiskamingLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RotaAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anthony Rota: (1720)[English]Thank you. I don't think those are the right words. Thank you for your years of service, not thank you for leaving us.I believe, Mr. Holland, you have a few words to say.Clerk of the House of CommonsRetirement from workRobert, CharlesCharlesRobertMarkHollandHon.AjaxINTERVENTIONParliamentDiscussed TopicProcedural TermPerson SpeakingSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE