//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. George Chahal (Calgary Skyview, Lib.)): (1530)[English] I call this meeting to order.Welcome to meeting number 90 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources.Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 17, 2023, and the adopted motion of Wednesday, December 13, 2023, the committee is resuming the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-49, an act to amend the Canada—Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.Since today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses.Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and cause serious injuries. The most common cause of feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone. We therefore ask all participants to exercise a high degree of caution when handling the earpieces, especially when their microphone or their neighbour's microphone is turned on.In order to prevent incidents and safeguard the hearing health of interpreters, I invite participants to ensure that they speak into the microphone into which their headset is plugged and to avoid manipulating the earbuds by placing them on the table away from the microphone when they are not in use.This is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair. Additionally, taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted.With us today to answer your questions, from the Department of Justice, we have Jean-Nicolas Bustros, counsel; and also Jean-François Roman, legal counsel. From the Department of Natural Resources, we have Abigail Lixfeld, senior director, renewable and electrical energy division, energy systems sector; Annette Tobin, director, offshore management division, fuels sector; Lauren Knowles, deputy director; Cheryl McNeil, deputy director; Daniel Morin, senior legislative and policy adviser, renewable and electrical energy division.As well, we have, as the legislative clerks from the House of Commons, Dancella Boyi and Émilie Thivierge.We will proceed. At the last meeting, the committee adopted clause 125. There are no amendments submitted to clauses 126 to 135.Do we have unanimous consent to group them for a vote?Some hon. members: Agreed.(Clauses 126 to 135 inclusive agreed to: yeas 9; nays 1)(On clause 136)The Chair: We have new CPC-11.Do we have a member who would like to move CPC-11?Mr. Patzer, go ahead.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyDecisions in committeeEnergy and fuelGovernment billsRecorded divisionsJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC): (1535)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I really appreciate it.I would move that the bill, in clause 136, be amended by replacing lines 1 to 3 on page 94 with the following:(2.1) An order made by the Regulator in a case referred to in paragraph (1)(a) with respect to a submerged land licence takes effect immediately but is subject to sections 38.1 to 38.3.There is no specific requirement to consider the fish or their habitats or any applicable regional or strategic assessments by the minister or the regulator making decisions on a call for bids or submerged land licences. If the American experience is of any value, then you'll note that, once a call for bids or SLL is issued, the pressure for development is overwhelming, regardless of the environmental issues that are later identified.At minimum, Canadians should expect to see such required consideration in the parent legislation that enables the call for bids or the granting of submerged land licences.It seems like a pretty common-sense addition to the legislation, and I think we heard some compelling witness testimony that would make this a solid addition to the bill.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English] Thank you, Mr. Patzer.I'll now go to Ms. Dabrusin.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.): (1540)[English] Thank you. Actually, I was just hoping that maybe I could ask some of our experts here for some information.My understanding is that the regulator can already decide to issue orders to address safety issues and the like, but in here, there's a piece that seems to be dealing with ministerial decision-making too. Could you explain to me what the impact would be of the amendment that's proposed?Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld (Senior Director, Renewable and Electrical Energy Division, Energy Systems Sector, Department of Natural Resources): (1540)[English] Thank you very much for the question. This particular section of the bill deals with prohibitions, so it is orders that would be given to stop work or activities in the event of certain circumstances. In the event of a major health and safety issue, where life and limb is at issue, an order made by the regulator takes effect immediately because the regulator needs to respond to an emergency situation. All other decisions that are made by the regulator do need to go through a ministerial decision process, and that's what outlined in (1)(a). The effect of this amendment would be that decisions of the regulator don't actually need to be considered by government and that the regulator would be able to take those decisions unilaterally. This particular amendment appears exclusively in the renewables section. The previous clause pertains to decisions taken under the petroleum side of the mandate, so there would be a discrepancy between a decision taken for petroleum and a decision taken with respect to renewables. Of course, that same clause does not appear in the Newfoundland portion of the bill as this particular amendment is only on the Nova Scotia side, and to the extent possible, we strive for symmetry between the Nova Scotia and the Newfoundland portions of the bill. Thank you.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1540)[English]That's very helpful because obviously we need to be making sure that the two mirror one another. I also am interested by the fact that it would be impacting renewables differently, and I find comfort in the fact that, when it's a health and safety issue, orders would take effect immediately.Based on everything that I've heard, I'll be opposing this amendment.AbigailLixfeldGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Mr. Angus.JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus (Timmins—James Bay, NDP): (1540)[English]Thank you.I had studied this. I was wondering and looked into it. I thank our witnesses here for their testimony because I think it would send a very bad message if we were to put limits and obligations on renewables that petroleum is exempted from. That would send, I think, a very negative message. Perhaps it was brought forward with good intent, but it would definitely have negative consequences. Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Mrs. Stubbs, go ahead. CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs (Lakeland, CPC): (1540)[English]Mr. Chair, thank you. I can certainly see that the NDP is propping up their Liberal masters and will defeat this amendment, but to my colleague's comment, I would just remind him that if he truly is concerned about the difference in the treatment between offshore petroleum and renewable development in Bill C-49, then of course he should have agreed with our amendments that would have dealt with the fact that, in Bill C-49, the decision timing for a call to bid for licences under Bill C-49 will be triple the time for offshore renewables as it currently is for petroleum, which will also be maintained in its current timeline in Bill C-49. However, I can see that they've already decided what to do with this particular amendment.Thanks, Chair.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]I don't see any further debate. We'll proceed to a vote on CPC-11. (Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)(Clause 136 agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1)(On clause 137)Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyDecisions in committeeEnergy and fuelGovernment billsRecorded divisionsShannonStubbsLakelandGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English] We'll now proceed to amendment G-15 on clause 137.Ms. Dabrusin.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1545)[English] This should be a fairly straightforward one. It's correcting a typo by removing the word “the” that appears before the word “an”. We need to remove the word “the”. It doesn't fit in grammatically. I'm hoping everyone will agree to that.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Thank you.I don't see any further debate. We'll now go to the vote on G-15.(Amendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])(Clause 137 as amended agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1)The Chair: We will now proceed to the next clauses. There are no amendments submitted to clauses 138 to 146. Do we have unanimous consent to group them for the vote?Some hon. members: Agreed.(Clauses 138 to 146 inclusive agreed to: yeas 10; nays 1)(On clause 147)The Chair: We'll now proceed to clause 147.On BQ-27, we have Monsieur Simard.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyDecisions in committeeEnergy and fuelGovernment billsRecorded divisionsJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthMarioSimardJonquière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104773MarioSimardMario-SimardJonquièreBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SimardMario_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Mario Simard (Jonquière, BQ): (1545)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I won't be moving amendments BQ‑27, BQ‑28 and BQ‑29. Since my proposed amendments to the first part of the bill were voted down, I assume that, for the sake of consistency, the same logic will apply in this case.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Thank you, Monsieur Simard.You're withdrawing BQ-27 to BQ-29, just to clarify. Thank you.We will proceed to new NDP-2. Mr. Angus.MarioSimardJonquièreCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1545)[English]I'm trying to keep a similar position between the Newfoundland and Labrador accord and what we have in Nova Scotia. We have a belief that when we're making these commitments we need to see that the jobs are not just being taken offshore, particularly to competitors in the United States, Europe or elsewhere. We have job obligations and commitments that we're looking for. Therefore, I will move this motion.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus.Ms. Dabrusin.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1550)[English]I appreciate Mr. Angus's comments, but this is similar to NDP-1, which did not pass. To ensure consistency between the Newfoundland and Nova Scotia versions of this bill, I oppose the motion and suggest that we vote against it.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you.Mr. Patzer.JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1550)[English]Thank you very much.I echo the same argument we made with a similar motion done previously. It's that the intent behind them seems fine and all that, but when it comes down to practicality, you're going to have a bunch of people who will be trained for a job, and then they'll be out of a job not very long afterwards because there are only going to be so many machines set up. Then they, in fact, will be the ones who will be travelling internationally and abroad to do all that work. While the intent is fine, in practicality, it just doesn't work, so I'm voting against it.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English] Thank you, Mr. Patzer.I don't see any further debate. Please call the roll. (Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])The Chair: We'll now proceed to CPC-12.Do we have a member who would like to move CPC-12?Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyDecisions in committeeEnergy and fuelGovernment billsRecorded divisionsJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1550)[English]I'll move it. GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Mrs. Stubbs, go ahead. ShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1550)[English]Thanks very much, Chair. Our CPC-12 amendment would be that Bill C-49, in clause 147, be amended by adding after line 27 on page 107 the following: (c) importance shall be given to the development of measures to assist in the preservation of the fishing industry, including measures to assist in understanding and maintaining the environmental characteristics of the offshore area that support that industry.This is, of course, because there are countless livelihoods and small businesses of generational families in Atlantic Canada in the fishery and lobster harvesting sectors where the habitat and marine ecology in the area may be impacted by developments. The CPC amendment has been proposed to ensure that this bill includes those considerations and these clear principles in favour of the natural environment and the balance for existing ocean users building their livelihoods and their businesses off of the ocean. The balance in those principles could, we believe, be easily achieved by including this amendment in the bill. Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you, Mrs. Stubbs. I will go to Ms. Dabrusin. ShannonStubbsLakelandJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1550)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is similar to CPC-7. While agreeing with the intent of the motion, I'll be opposing it. I think that it's worthwhile for us to look at the letters that have been sent to our committee by Minister Parsons, Minister of Industry, Energy and Technology from Newfoundland and Labrador, and Minister Rushton, Minister of Natural Resources and Renewables from Nova Scotia, which say that they actually oppose this amendment. Specifically, I would go to the letter from Minister Parsons, which says: We do, however, have several concerns with this amendment as drafted above. Ensuring the sustainability of the fishing industry involves a comprehensive understanding of the environmental fact of shaping it, extending beyond the purview of the Accord Acts and encompassing considerations beyond interactions with energy projects. This amendment also fails to recognize the evaluation of potential impacts from energy projects is already assessed through spatial planning, such as Regional Assessments, and regulatory review processes outlined in the existing Accord Acts and Bill C-49. Most notably however, the acceptance of this amendment does not align with the principles of joint management.It goes on, but I think that gives you an idea. That opinion is reflected in the letter from the Minister of Natural Resources and Renewables from Nova Scotia as well.I will be opposing this CPC amendment, but I will be proposing a subamendment to ensure that fishers are given importance through the licence issuance process associated with this principal section, while keeping the language in the scope of the purpose and mandate of the accord acts and the responsibilities of ministers and regulators under the acts.I believe there is a copy of the subamendment, which can be distributed to the members.I move that motion CPC-12 proposing to amend clause 147 of Bill C-49 be amended by adding text after line 27 on page 107, and it be amended by (a) substituting, for the reference to “importance”, a reference to “during the submerged land licence issuance process, importance”; and (b) substituting, for the reference to “development of measures to assist in the preservation of the fishing industry, including measures to assist in understanding and maintaining the environmental characteristics of the offshore area that support that industry”, a reference to “consideration of effects on fishing activities”.I'm going to ask the government officials if they can maybe provide to us some greater clarity on the issues with the language in CPC-12, the previous CPC-7, and what this subamendment does to capture the spirit of CPC-12 while respecting the joint management principles that were raised in the letter I just read, the scope of proposed division V and the acts more broadly. Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld: (1555)[English] Thank you very much for the question.We did share the concerns that were outlined by the provinces about the scope of this proposed amendment and it likely falling outside of, really, the purpose of the accord acts, which is, as you know, about the regulation of offshore energy projects. The acts set out certain requirements with respect to safety and environmental protection and the consideration of interactions between potential offshore energy projects and other users of the sea. Management of the fishing industry and the environment does fall beyond the scope of the acts. In addition, this particular section of the bill in which this amendment appears pertains to the land tenure process specifically and the process for issuing submerged land licences.The motion that was put forward includes reference to the development of measures related to environmental management. It's really not well placed in this section of the act. The motion as drafted could be challenging for the regulators to implement. The consideration of environmental effects takes place at a number of points in the regulatory process—for example, through the regional assessments and marine spatial planning activities that happen before a call for bids is issued. Governments have several opportunities to engage with indigenous groups and stakeholders, including fishers, about potential wind energy areas, and of course through the impact assessment and regulatory authorization phases of work that happen in part III, when there's an actual project that needs to be considered.We certainly did reflect on the testimony that was presented by the fisher sector throughout the hearings and through further engagement subsequent to the tabling of the bill. We agree that the bill can be further strengthened to reflect the government's intent to consider the impacts of offshore energy development on the fishing sector. We feel that the amendment that is proposed and that has the support of both provinces is in keeping with the scope of the accord acts. It fits well with this particular section with respect to land tenure and does acknowledge the importance of the fishing sector.Thank you.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Thank you.Go ahead, Ms. Dabrusin.AbigailLixfeldJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1555)[English]Perhaps I can get some further clarity. Am I correct that this entire clause is in respect of renewables only? GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld: (1555)[English]You're correct. JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Ms. Dabrusin, is there anything else? AbigailLixfeldJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1555)[English]No.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Okay.I'll go to Mr. Angus, and then I have others on the speaking list.Go ahead, Mr. Angus.JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1555)[English]Thank you.It's very important that we get this right. I don't want to show my age. I've been involved in lots of legislation, but never one quite as complicated. We're dealing with accords that exist with Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia and existing accords. We're trying to untie this Gordian knot of very complex issues. At the heart of it for me, of course, is that we have to make sure we protect the environment and protect the fisheries, the people who are using the waters right now. I very much thank my Conservative colleagues. I supported their motion in the first part of this. I was surprised when I saw the letters from Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia. We had to look into that. I have a question before I decide, Ms. Lixfeld. Does this amendment cover off concerns in terms of making sure the concerns of the fishers are being heard and that there are obligations that the board has to address? Would this help? If we support this amendment, would it cover that?Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld: (1600)[English]Thank you for the question.I don't feel equipped to speak on behalf of FFAW and what specifically would meet their request. I think their testimony was fairly clear. One thing we needed to do was to stay within the scope of the purpose of the accord acts and also respect the role of government in deciding how its resources should best be developed. There is potentially some tension or some conflict there. Through the measures that have been proposed in these accord acts, there are opportunities for government to do work to better understand the potential impacts of a particular activity on the environment, on fishers and on other stakeholders, as well as balance its needs for the development of renewable energy technology.We do feel that the amendment as proposed does further strengthen and acknowledge the importance that both levels of government place on the fishing sector and the importance of balancing environmental considerations while also being true to the spirit of the accord acts. Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsCharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1600)[English] Thank you. I did not want to put you in a position where you're having to speak for the fishers. I certainly heard from Unifor and they're very clear. I'm very proud of their work. I did want to clarify this, and you said it. It's that this amendment is not undermining the work, but actually recognizes it. Within the balance of the accord these issues have to be considered, and it strengthens it. Is that what you're saying? AbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld: (1600)[English]Yes, that's what I'm saying. Thank you. CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you.Mr. Falk.AbigailLixfeldTedFalkProvencher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84672TedFalkTed-FalkProvencherConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkTed_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ted Falk (Provencher, CPC): (1600)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like a bit of clarity. The official, Ms. Lixfeld, referred to the amendment. Are you referring to the amendment or the subamendment? I was a little confused, though, as to which one you were speaking to. Could you provide clarity on that?Also, because we are actually talking about the subamendment, could I get a hard copy to look at? I don't have a copy of it. Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1600)[English]I wouldn't mind seeing a hard copy as well. TedFalkProvencherTedFalkProvencher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84672TedFalkTed-FalkProvencherConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkTed_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ted Falk: (1600)[English]Mario would probably like it in his language as well. CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Colleagues, Mr. Falk has asked for.... An email was sent out, but you would like a hard copy. That is what you mentioned to me, Mr. Falk. I heard that from others as well, so we will suspend until we can get a hard copy over to everyone. We'll suspend for a few minutes. (1600)(1610)TedFalkProvencherGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]We are back from our suspension. We were on CPC-12. There was a subamendment moved by Ms. Dabrusin and Mr. Falk had asked for a hard copy of the subamendment, which has been provided. I believe everyone has been able to review it. Mr. Falk, you had the floor prior to suspension and you do have your hard copy, so I want to give you an opportunity to continue. GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewTedFalkProvencher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84672TedFalkTed-FalkProvencherConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkTed_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ted Falk: (1610)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that. I appreciate the hard copy, because now we can see exactly what the subamendment is proposing to change in the original amendment that the Conservatives are providing to this Liberal bill.I think I'm satisfied with what it says. Am I to understand that the comments made by Ms. Lixfeld were in reference to the subamendment?GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld: (1610)[English]Yes. The concerns I outlined were with respect to the amendment that had been proposed, and my comments were in terms of how to address them in the language that was supported by the provinces. This is what appears in the subamendment. I apologize for....TedFalkProvencherTedFalkProvencher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84672TedFalkTed-FalkProvencherConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkTed_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ted Falk: (1610)[English]Thank you for clarifying that. I'm good.AbigailLixfeldGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Falk.Mr. Patzer, I also had you on the list.TedFalkProvencherJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1610)[English]Thank you.I have one point of concern with the subamendment. Just to be clear, after we're done with the subamendment, Mr. Chair, are we still dealing with the speaking list on the actual amendment?GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]I had you on the speaking order of the amendment as well. Once you're done, we will proceed by voting on the subamendment. If there's no further debate, then we will go back to the amendment, conclude debate and have a vote. Then we will proceed to the clause.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1610)[English]Okay. I have comments for both parts here. I'll save some of them for the amendment, and I'll just deal with the parts in the subamendment here.Part of what's being removed from the amendment by the subamendment in particular is the wording “the environmental characteristics of the offshore area that support that industry.” I think that's a very important phrase to possibly keep in there. The reason is that we heard witnesses talk extensively about characteristics of the seabed that are impacted by having multiple wind turbines anchored to the ocean floor. Also, with all the interconnecting cabling and things like that, that does alter the characteristics of the ocean floor, which changes the habitat for the various species that live on or close to the bottom of the ocean.I think it's important to recognize that this is a very important factor in this discussion. Simply saying, “consideration of effects on fishing activities” is only about fishing in and of itself. It's not actually about the environment that the fish or other species of the ocean live in.I think that's why having that specific language around “environmental characteristics” was included by my colleague from Lakeland. I think it's important to make sure that it's a fulsome point in there, particularly because where the original amendment is located is in regard to the principles of this portion of the bill, which is also the general rules of the offshore renewable portion.I'll have more comments later on that little bit, which I'll do under the amendment when we get back to the original amendment. However, as far as the subamendment goes and making sure we talk about “the environmental characteristics”, I do think we need to make sure there is some language in and around there just to make sure that we're not forgetting about the fact that there's so much more than just the fishing activity to consider when we're talking about the development of offshore renewable energy.As I say, I have more comments that I'll use for the amendment. I'll stop right now.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Patzer.I'll go to Mr. Dreeshen.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen (Red Deer—Mountain View, CPC): (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My question is the wording or lettering we see in front of us with the subamendment. Of course, it says that after line 27, we are then putting another (a) and (b) into it. That is the way it is written here.I'm curious as to whether that is intended to be a replacement for the line item (c) that we have in CPC-12, or whether that goes back and attempts to make changes in the (a) and the (b), which, of course, it is saying takes place after that.I'd like some clarification. After line 27 is where we had talked about entering (c) for CPC-12. With the rest of this, it's unclear as to whether the intent is to take what we see in (c) and amend it in the subamendment.I'm questioning the way the lettering is done here.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English] Is there somebody who would like to address that?EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewTedFalkProvencher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84672TedFalkTed-FalkProvencherConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkTed_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ted Falk: (1615)[English]I think Julie would know.It's your subamendment.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1615)[English]I think it states where it fits, so it doesn't.... It's not.... You would have the (a) and the (b) added, and we're substituting the wording.I can pull it out. That's exactly what I was just pulling out in the legislation, if you want me to I can actually do the cross-reference for you, but the line pieces are quite clear.If the officials have it right in front of them.... I am turning to the right one right here.TedFalkProvencherEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1615)[English]Could I respond so that everyone knows what I'd like to see them looking for?JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Yes, of course.EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1615)[English]When the legislation comes out—and all of these things have to be cross-referenced—I just want to make sure. In proposed section 98.7 under “Principles”, are we talking about (a), (b) and then this is (c) with adjustments to it, or are we taking the (a) and (b) that is done in the subamendment addressing the (a) and (b) that come under “Principles”.Is this entirely just a subamendment on CPC-12, which is the one that is labelled as paragraph (c)?GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.Ms. Dabrusin has something to add. I can also go to the legislative clerk, but I'll go to you, Ms. Dabrusin.EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1615)[English]I'll just point out that the way the subamendment is listed, the (a) and (b) are not part of the substitution wording.If that helps to clarify it.... I'm sure the officials have something else to add, but the (a) and (b) are the wording of the subamendment. It's that we're saying, (a) we're proposing this substitution, and (b) we're proposing this substitution, but the (a)....GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Ms. Dabrusin, would you like me to go to the legislative clerk?JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1615)[English]Our point, MP Dabrusin, is of course that it's Conservatives who are trying to insert this principle. We were attempting to do that with my amendment (c).Thank goodness my colleagues have asked for the hard copy of (a) and (b), which you propose.What they're asking is whether it will look like your (a) and (b), which we agree, as indicated by MP Falk, are a good expansion and detailed follow-up on the proposal that of course Conservatives have made to implement this principle into the bill.Their question, I think, is whether the (a) and (b) proposed in your subamendment replace the (c) that is the principle that Conservatives are trying to implement into this, which is the importance of the environmental characteristics in the marine ecology and the ocean floor, as well as the principle to protect the livelihoods and small businesses of fishers and lobstermen and women.What my colleagues are asking about is clarity on the subamendment you've proposed, and whether the legislation will look like (a), (b) and (c), or whether it will just be (a) and (b) replacing (c).I'd like to thank the NDP-Liberals and, clearly, the officials who worked on the subamendment before we got the hard copy, for accepting the insertion of this important principle to protect the environment and the marine ecology of the ocean floor, as well as the livelihoods of fishermen and lobstermen.I think we're prepared to support the subamendment if it just does better with the whole principle of this Conservative amendment specifically related to, as you said, the issuance of the submerged land licences.We'd just like to thank you for your acceptance and improvement on the Conservative attempt to insert these principles into the bill.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Ms. Dabrusin, it's back to you.ShannonStubbsLakelandJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1615)[English]I'll ask the legislative clerk to explain it, but it's a subamendment to the Conservative amendment. That's the way it is when you look through the wording.I'll let the legislative clerk make sure that I'm using the correct terms when I'm saying that, but I also want to be clear that there was an emailed copy of this subamendment. I'm glad everyone has a hard copy now, but it wasn't that this was a surprise subamendment.Maybe the legislative clerk can better explain what I've just said in proper legal terms.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]I'm going to go to the legislative clerk first, and I think that might address some of the concerns that have been raised.JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthÉmilieThiviergeÉmilieThiviergeÉmilie-ThiviergeInterventionMs. Émilie Thivierge (Legislative Clerk): (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.As was mentioned, the subamendment is on the amendment, so it's not touching proposed paragraphs 98.7(a) or (b). It's just touching proposed paragraph (c). If it were to be adopted, the new (c) would read as, “during the submerged land licence issuance process, importance shall be given to the consideration of effects on fishing activities.”Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English] Thank you.I'm going to go back to Mr. Falk.ÉmilieThiviergeTedFalkProvencher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84672TedFalkTed-FalkProvencherConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkTed_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ted Falk: (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the legislative clerk. I think that clarifies our confusion here on this side a little bit.The way the subamendment has been presented here, it looks as though there will be two additional sections added or replacing...but you're just itemizing the changes. The (a) and the (b) have no significance in the actual subamendment. It's just that there will be two changes to the amendment.That's all. I think that helps us clarify where things are at.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]I think that is clarified. I think everybody understands. Thank you for the subamendment, Ms. Dabrusin, and all your answers to provide clarification for everybody.To be clear, we are now voting. CPC-12 was moved. We had a subamendment moved by Ms. Dabrusin. We are voting on the subamendment.(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)The Chair: We will now go to amendment CPC-12, as amended.Mr. Patzer, you are on the speaking list, so I want to go to you to provide your commentary.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyDecisions in committeeEnergy and fuelGovernment billsRecorded divisionsTedFalkProvencherJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1620)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I appreciate that we now have this hammered out.I would also like to point out that I got the email at 3:55 p.m. with the subamendment, so it's not like we would have had time to review it and try to propose any other amendments to the subamendment. I'm wondering if I could have the indulgence of the committee here to possibly try to make a.... As I alluded to in my remarks earlier around environmental characteristics, I'm just wondering.... We've agreed on a good subamendment here. I'm wondering if there's any way now to propose an amendment to that subamendment. Maybe I have to come back with a written copy later, but I'd like to have a quick discussion about it right now, because I do think it's important to have “environmental characteristics” included in this new, amended version of the amendment.I'm trying to envision it in my head because I don't have the actual text of what the new amendment looks like. I think that after “consideration of effects on fishing activities”, we could add in “and the environmental characteristics of the offshore area”.I'm wondering if the committee would consider that. I just want to get thoughts from the committee about that to see if there would be an appetite to do something to that effect. If that's the case, I'd be happy to work on a hard copy to distribute to the committee. I want the committee's input first, before I go through all that work, to see what the appetite around the table would be for language like that.Then I'd like to get back to my other point, but I want to deal with this first, if that's okay.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you, Mr. Patzer, for inviting committee members for input. We would need something in writing if you are prepared to move forward, but we will go to other members to comment.Go ahead, Ms. Dabrusin.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1625)[English]Maybe I will go back to where I started in this conversation. It was that we actually have letters from two provincial ministers that specifically address the amendment that had been proposed by the Conservatives, including.... The language is a little bit easier for me to quote in the context of the one from the minister from Newfoundland and Labrador. It specifically deals with the environmental piece. We all have a copy of this letter.The minister says that “This amendment...fails to recognize the evaluation of potential impact from energy projects is already assessed through spatial planning, such as Regional Assessments, and regulatory review processes outlined in the existing Accord Acts and Bill C-49.”It goes on in a lot more detail; there are a couple of pages here. The main point is that the bill is negotiated with the provinces, respecting the provinces and their input into how this is done. I would like us to take into account the correspondence that we've received from the ministers from Nova Scotia and from Newfoundland and Labrador and respect their champs de compétence.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English] Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.I'll go back to you, Mr. Patzer.JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1625)[English] Thank you.Now, I guess this would go into my comments that I was going to save for later, but I think the reason this is important is that the existing accord deals with offshore petroleum development. We're talking about one platform that's confined to a smaller area. When you're talking about offshore renewables, you're talking about multiple points across a vast area and a vast landscape. That's why the concerns around the environmental characteristics of the ocean floor all of a sudden become a much bigger factor. Now you're dealing with tens if not hundreds of square kilometres that will be taken out of fishing activities. Also, now we'll be at risk of significantly altering the environmental characteristics of that ocean floor. That's why I'm talking about the environmental characteristics of that offshore area. As I said, with petroleum, it's one platform. It may have multiple points down. It will have the cables, the guy wires, to help support it, yes, but when you factor in a wind farm and what that entails, it's so much more than what one petroleum platform would be. You can't compare the two. They're not the same. There are some principles that do apply, but when you apply it, broadly speaking, to several individual turbines....It does depend on whether it's a floating wind farm. I'm not sure how widely deployed those are at this point, but there still is an anchoring system that goes in there. There will be multiple aspects to that floating wind farm. It's not just one floating apparatus. There will be several of them, which means several points of tie-down to the ocean floor. We are still talking about multiple interactions with the ocean floor. Again, having significant alterance to the environmental characteristics of the floor has a direct impact on the various species that live on or near the bottom of the ocean floor. That's why I think this is an important piece to consider. Again, we did hear that from witness testimony. If the committee wants to have a hard-copy proposal, I'd be happy to get the text of the intervention that we had from a witness. Being that we had only a couple of minutes to do all this, I don't have that immediately in front of me. I do know that it was mentioned in the committee. GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you, Mr. Patzer.Before I move to Mrs. Stubbs, I just want to let you know that, if you do want to propose another subamendment, you'll need to prepare something in writing for the clerk so that we can get it out. If you do decide you want to do that, that's something that you may want to prepare.In the interim, I will go to Mrs. Stubbs.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1630)[English]Thanks, Chair. I want to thank MP Patzer for the points he has made regarding our Conservative intention to insert the consideration of environmental characteristics through the process of issuing submerged land licences. Of course, the whole point of Bill C-49, I would remind all colleagues and Canadians, is precisely to expand the scope, the deliverables and the mandate of the regulators through the bill. The regulators, of course, have decades of history and expertise and a skill set dealing with offshore petroleum development. The entire point of Bill C-49 is to add the regulatory scope, mandate and enforcement powers around offshore renewable development.For the life of me, I certainly would not understand why a Liberal or Bloc or NDP MP would vote against including the principle of the regulator in addition to the other improvements that have been made through the subamendments, or why an MP of any party would vote against inserting the importance of the regulator, under the new scope of its mandate for offshore renewables, considering the protection of environmental characteristics, in particular, as MP Patzer and other Conservative MPs have said here, and as we heard in the witness testimony during the albeit rushed and shortened timeline that the Liberals and NDP forced on the bill. The amendment, of course, just reflects those principles, which witnesses have also said. It seems to me that we can achieve all of the things that we appear to agree on, or that I think we appear to agree on, by keeping in, as Conservatives already just did, the support of the subamendments dealing with points (a) and (b). Certainly, I would urge colleagues to accept this subamendment, if MP Patzer is able to provide it to us, which would maintain the Conservative inclusion that the regulator maintain the environmental characteristics in consideration of issuing submerged land licences for offshore renewable development.Thanks.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English] Thank you, Mrs. Stubbs. Mr. Angus.ShannonStubbsLakelandCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1630)[English]I'm just trying to follow the bouncing ball here. The Conservatives had an amendment, and then they supported a subamendment that they said improved their amendment, but now they're not happy with the amendment and they're going back to their amendment. Are they actually giving us a subamendment, or are we talking in circles? Until we see a subamendment, I don't know what we're talking about. Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus. Ms. Dabrusin.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1630)[English]I know I'm repeating this several times, but I do think I should keep pointing out that the ministers from the provincial governments—including a Conservative minister—with whom this has all been negotiated, have specifically stated that they do not want to see the changes the Conservatives are proposing. They have talked about how they place great importance on their fishing industries and that they also want to make sure that they will be working to minimize any impacts on our fisheries. That is the wording that's coming from Minister Rushton.Just to help move this along, I will ask the officials. We've heard now the concerns that are being raised by the Conservatives. What, within this bill, do we have that would be responding to some of the concerns that they're raising within this whole regime?Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld: (1630)[English]Thank you for the question. To reiterate, governments have an important role to play in undertaking research in advance of a “call for bids” process to help identify where suitable areas for offshore renewable energy development can be located, taking into consideration such factors as existing uses of the sea. Throughout the land tenure process, there are numerous opportunities to engage with stakeholders, including the fisheries sector, on those site assessment decisions. Then when we are at the point of a specific project, through the impact assessment and other regulatory steps, the impacts—including the environmental impacts of those projects—will be assessed and the regulator can impose terms and conditions through its authorization process. In addition to and outside of the accord acts, governments still have an important role to play in research, data collection and cumulative effects assessment to understand the impacts of energy development in the offshore. There certainly is a growing body of evidence from international jurisdictions that have had offshore renewable energy in their offshore for decades that is helping to inform government decisions and the environmental assessment process in terms of the impacts of renewables on the fishing sector and the ecosystem at large.Those are the types of things we're drawing on and the provinces are drawing on to support the fishing sector in particular. Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1635)[English]That was very helpful. Thanks.AbigailLixfeldGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you.I will go to Mr. Dreeshen. JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1635)[English]Thank you. To pick up on what Ms. Lixfeld just mentioned, I'm curious to know...because this would then become a no-trawler zone. You have to make sure that's not part of what you're dealing with if your electrical transmission lines are going to be on the ocean floor.That, then, would have to be, I assume, one of those conditions that is put on the industry. You would probably have, in the discussions, information from Europe and other places that would indicate what types of restrictions they've had to put in those zones where you see hundreds of hectares of ocean that have these structures. We know that, if it is an oil derrick or whatever, there are restrictions around that particular...but that isn't this massive zone where you might see many dozens or hundreds of structures. Is that what you are referencing?That's why, when we talk about “environmental characteristics”, we're trying to say, it has to fit in with the way the fishers fish and the way things are done. Is that being taken into consideration with the wording that you see in...? Let's start with CPC-12 and then tie in the subamendment, if we need to.Is that not being shown and looked at when we talk about environmental characteristics? I believe that's what we're trying to do with the subamendment, which hopefully we will have the time to be able to expand and let everybody look at. Can you tell me what you have seen, what other jurisdictions have done and whether they speak to the environmental characteristics of the region where these renewable energy projects are located?Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld: (1635)[English] In general, terms and conditions speak to the mitigation of the effects of a specific project. They are not necessarily oriented towards preserving an ecosystem, for example.One thing that is challenging is that the decision to move forward with a renewable energy project is a decision that is taken by government on the recommendation of the regulator. It is up to government to decide the balance of effects and to ensure that the regulator has the ability to impose terms and conditions that mitigate and manage any potential effects to the extent possible and to ensure that projects are developed and implemented safely and with environmental safety and protection in mind. Ultimately, that is what we feel the subamendment reinforces, and it is consistent with the role of the regulator in carrying out its activities and carrying out the instructions of government with respect to where and how development of these resources should occur.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1635)[English]May I just respond?AbigailLixfeldGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Yes, go ahead.EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1635)[English]It seems like we're caught up on this term of “environmental characteristics” as though we have to take that out of it because that wasn't a term that was used when we were talking with the various provinces and so on. However, is that not exactly what you're saying—that we look at environmental characteristics and have to make decisions, and that the regulators are going to make decisions based on the environmental characteristics? I'm just having trouble trying to figure out why we don't just include that. Again, if we know we're on the right track and it really is “environmental characteristics” and that's what regulators have to deal with, why can't we take the time to include that and find the wording that Mr. Patzer is attempting to put together? Is it not the “environmental characteristics” that each of those regulators have to pay attention to?GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewAbigailLixfeldAbigailLixfeldAbigail-LixfeldInterventionMs. Abigail Lixfeld: (1640)[English]Certainly, assessing environmental considerations and environmental characteristics is a way of describing the regulatory process. I think there was some concern with the original amendment as proposed and the language around developing “measures to assist in the preservation of the fishing industry, including measures to assist in understanding and maintaining the environmental characteristics”. It's hard to parse out just the word “characteristics”. When we looked at the original amendment that was proposed, it was read in a particular context, which is hard to place in the context of the accord acts and the regulatory decisions that need to be taken. A different characterization or a different wording of the subamendment might lead us to a different perspective. However, again, we do feel that the subamendment that was proposed by the provinces does address—in a way that is consistent with the purpose and the mandate of the regulators and with the purpose of the accord acts—and acknowledge the importance of the fishing sector and the importance of mitigating and managing potential impacts of development on the offshore environment and the broader ecosystem.EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1640)[English]Thank you.Perhaps that would make it easier, then, with those parameters set for us, to come up with the proper wording of a subamendment.I appreciate that. Thank you.AbigailLixfeldGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Okay. I think we've asked and answered a lot of questions on this.Mr. Patzer, I'm going to go back to you. Do you have a subamendment that you would like to present, or would you like to continue and vote on the amendment as amended?EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1640)[English] Yes, obviously, we want to propose something like that. I had a quick chat with the clerk about some wording here. Also, I still haven't seen the new wording of the amendment after we voted on the subamendment. Once I get the actual new wording of the amendment, it will be easier to try to insert something in at that point.I want to go back to the point on how we heard repeatedly throughout the process with witnesses that this was rushed. That's why we are focused on trying to have a piece of legislation—with the addition of this new piece—that is going to actually take into consideration the environmental characteristics of the offshore area. The reason is that, when we put in a new piece of legislation or add a substantive chunk to an existing one, as we're doing with the Atlantic accords here, it's important that we take this opportunity to make sure that we do it right.If you set the standard now in legislation for what they need to do, rather than just wait to do this process when the SLL application happens.... I mean, it kind of comes down to a lot of other government bills that we have seen where there's a change to the Criminal Code or whatever, but it's so vague that there is actually no certainty and it's left to the courts to decide and determine what's actually going to happen and go on. This causes more uncertainty and delay, and then we get some crazy court rulings that end up happening that nobody agrees with.Therefore, I think it's important that we legislate to make sure that we set the parameters that we want as legislators, because we're the ones who are responsible for doing that work. That's our job. I'm not saying that the provinces haven't considered these things. However, when we hear from all these other witnesses about how rushed the process was or about the fact that they were only given a couple of days to prepare their witness testimony because they weren't consulted, that's where it becomes problematic. Because they weren't given the time to adequately prepare what they would like to see in the consultation phase, it becomes problematic. That's why we are going to bat for some of these key issues that came up during limited witness testimony on another rushed piece of Liberal government legislation.I think it's important that we take the time to make sure that we get it right and that we raise up these specific points that, again, we heard throughout witness testimony. That's why this has become a bit of a sticking point here.We definitely agreed to what the government proposed as a subamendment. I do think it did help provide a little bit more.... It kind of tightened it up a little bit, which is good, which is fine. The reason I wanted to let that pass was that I thought, okay, maybe we could tweak a few things here rather than try to do a whole massive thing at once. I thought we could agree on a basis point, and if there was a way to tweak that, to get the certainty around the environmental characteristics.... I just think it was important to do one, and then we can do the other.That kind of answers Charlie's point about what the heck we're doing here.My initial ask was whether there was a will from the committee to include “environmental characteristic” in this. That way I would be able to come back to this committee with a hard proposal for the wording around that. If we can do that on the fly here, that's great, but I was just trying to gauge the feeling in the room to see if there was a willingness to do something on this. I think we've outlined the reason and the case for why we should do that with regard to the characteristics of the offshore area.If “characteristics” is too broad and vague of a term.... Well, I think “characteristics” is actually a good descriptive word because we know that the ocean floor is active and changing. It doesn't just stay exactly the same. It shifts. It changes. It moves. There are ocean currents and different things like that. There are different species there. They all play a role in the environmental characteristics of the ocean floor. It's a moving thing. It's a constant. It's not ever just completely stationary and idle like, say, a mountainside. However, even that changes. We know that.Therefore, it's important that we have wording in here that is going to properly reflect what will provide the most certainty for investors and proponents and for the courts. There's a reason that the Department of Justice is here. We're trying to make sure that we have things that are legally going to work.As legislators, it is our job to make sure that we have everything in the bill that needs to be there. Again, I'm not saying that the provinces are wrong. I'm just saying that I think that, while we have this bill in front of us, it is important to take the time to make inclusions that possibly were missed or were skipped over.(1645) Again, we get back to the point that the bill was rushed, and here we are. We look at the long, extensive list of amendments that have been proposed here. I mean, I've only ever had one or two bills before me in committee over my four years as an elected MP, and I think this has the most amendments that I've ever seen proposed to a piece of legislation.Ms. Julie Dabrusin: What about the 20,000?Mr. Jeremy Patzer: Well....Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Jeremy Patzer: Yes, we did, but beyond that.... My point is that when you're working with the provinces on something like this.... Again, we want to make sure that we get this bill right.We have stakeholders' testimony that is very specific to this. Part of why marine protected areas became a thing.... I mean, there are a few aspects that go into it, but a lot of it is about preserving the condition of the area that we are protecting, whether it's an MPA or protected land. It's about preserving the condition of the environment. We talked to the fisher groups that were here. They want to see as much of the environment in and around any offshore renewable development be as closely preserved and maintained as it possibly can be. If there are substantive alterations to the environmental characteristics of the area, that's where problems occur. We've seen and heard the alarm bells go off from witnesses at our committee but also when we browse through the news. We have seen and heard from around the world what has happened when they didn't take these considerations seriously when they were legislating the frameworks around it. It's important that we take the warnings from other places around the world and apply them here. We had witness testimony in this very committee that pointed to this very issue, which is why we have this part of the amendment.I think it's important that we take the time to do this properly and do this right. I will come back to the committee with some hard language here. Like I said, I'll pull up the witness testimony, and I'll definitely be proposing something in writing when I get a chance to actually see the new amendment in writing. Then I can work with it and make sure that I get it done properly. However, part of this whole point was also to see if the committee agrees that we should have a little bit more language around it, because I don't want to waste my time and your time by bringing back an amendment that nobody is going to want to see anyway. I'm just wondering if there is a broad consensus to try to see something around that. Then I can bring something, and we can work. If it needs to be massaged a little bit to make it fit, that's great. However, I just want to make sure that I'm not going to be wasting my time and yours by doing that.Thank you.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Patzer.I will now proceed to Mr. Angus.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1650)[English]Thank you.In all my years, when we vote on an amendment, we accept the amendment and understand what's in the amendment. Once we've accepted the amendment, then we vote on the main motion unless there is a subamendment, but there hasn't been a subamendment. We don't get a time out then to go study and think and come up with some ideas. We're in the middle of clause-by-clause. Either they have a subamendment ready to go, or they don't. I would call the question. We have to move on.I'm concerned about trying to bring forward amendments and subamendments that are undermining the provincial jurisdiction here. We hear the Conservatives. If Danielle Smith wants to burn the planet, it's all about provincial jurisdiction. If Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia have accords that have been in place and that need the federal government to sign off on, then I say let's do it.There is no subamendment. Without a subamendment, I'm not going to be willing to suspend and give time for people to think one up. Either it's there or it's not. I say we vote on the amendment as is and move on.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus.We have Mrs. Stubbs.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1650)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.I suspect that MP Patzer will want to respond after, but I'll just take this moment to say this: Let's spare the sanctimony around here with the crowing about listening to provincial premiers, if we will, since the NDP and Liberals actually have zero problem ignoring the Liberal Newfoundland premier who has asked over and over that they spike the carbon tax hike on April 1.We have already demonstrated our willingness to work in good favour by accepting the two subamendments. MP Patzer has summarized exactly why we are engaging the will of the elected members of this committee to consider including the Conservatives' specific language on protecting and maintaining the environmental characteristics in the case of offshore renewable development and explicitly include this in Bill C-49. Here is why. It is because it is not enough at this point, after nine years, for the Liberals, propped up by the NDP, to say, “Just trust us.”I will give this example. It has been five months since the Supreme Court of Canada said that the law based on Bill C-69, which has been in place for half a decade, is largely unconstitutional. The Supreme Court said that less than 6% of the law based on Bill C-69 stands up, including, as we've discussed multiple times in the debate on this rushed bill, the dozens of references that are here in Bill C-49 to Bill C-69. This will automatically cause this bill, if it's passed as written, to be vulnerable to litigation and challenges, causing even more uncertainty for offshore petroleum developers, obviously, but also for any private sector proponents who want to launch into offshore renewable development too.This is why—so Canadians understand—Conservative MPs on this committee are trying to compel the NDP, Liberal and Bloc members of this committee to be explicit about our elected representatives' priority to protect and maintain the environmental characteristics according to the expanded new scope and scale of the mandate that Bill C-49 will provide for regulators. Also, in addition to my colleague's tough but fair and accurate comment on the Conservatives' 20,000 amendments to Bill C-50, the just transition bill, let me just say for the record—because I heard him quip it—that those were not generated by AI.Second of all—An hon. member: [Inaudible—Editor]Mrs. Shannon Stubbs: No, and I answered the media about that, so I'm not sure why you're claiming it. Second of all, thank goodness the Conservatives actually tried to propose amendments to Bill C-50, given that the government's own internal briefing shows that Bill C-50, the just transition bill, will kill 170 oil and gas jobs immediately and disrupt the livelihoods of 2.7 million Canadians in construction, manufacturing, agriculture, transportation and energy. Of course, the truth is that, because of the actions of the NDP, Liberal and Bloc MPs on this committee, there will be no debate on Bill C-50 and not a single Canadian will be able to be heard from on that bill.This is why it's not sufficient. This is why—Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsC-50, An Act respecting accountability, transparency and engagement to support the creation of sustainable jobs for workers and economic growth in a net-zero economyC-69, An Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1655)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.ShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1655)[English]—MP Patzer is arguing to make it explicit in the legislation. This isn't on the officials.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Mrs. Stubbs, we have a point of order. If I could just ask you to pause.ShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1655)[English]No, I'm going to finish my comments. Thanks, Mr. Chair.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1655)[English]You're talking into the mic, so what you want me to do right now is to do as you say but not as you do.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!ShannonStubbsLakelandGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English] Colleagues, I will ask everybody to halt. We have a point of order.An hon. member: The rules apply to everybody. Some hon. members: Oh, oh!ShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1655)[English]Don't tell me what to do, John. Go run in the provincial legislature like you said you wanted to.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Mrs. Stubbs, I would ask you to hold, please, for a moment. We have a point of order.ShannonStubbsLakelandJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1655)[English]Mr Chair, Mr. Aldag just mouthed the words “eff off” to my colleague right here. I demand an apology from Mr. Aldag.I saw that, John.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1655)[English]That's not sunny ways for a feminist. I guess because it's 2024, we're not feminists anymore.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]We will suspend.(1655)(1705)ShannonStubbsLakelandGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English] We are back from our suspension.Mrs. Stubbs, I'm going to go back to you, as you had the floor.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1710)[English]Chair, thank you for allowing me to conclude my remarks.My main point was that this is the reason the Conservatives have proposed to insert, explicitly, the language around protecting and maintaining environmental characteristics. It is because we can't just cross our fingers and hope that things happen. Our job as legislators is to make sure it is embedded with clarity in principles on which I think we would all agree. That is why Conservatives proposed that amendment in the first place, have worked in good faith to accept the subamendment and hope that we will be able to work in further good faith to improve the bill even more on this topic.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Thank you, Ms. Stubbs.I'm going to now go to Ms. Dabrusin.ShannonStubbsLakelandJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1710)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.It looks like there is still a whole bunch of conversation happening around clause 147, so what I would propose is that, if we could get unanimous consent to stand down clause 147 and hold it until the end and, at the same time, get UC to reopen and stand down clause 38, which is its mirror-image clause in the Newfoundland portion, we can then have a conversation more fully on each of those clauses.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsGeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin. Is it clear to everybody? It's to stand down clause 147 and also to reopen clause 38 in the previous portion of the bill and stand that down for later on as well, because they are mirroring clauses. This is so that you can think a bit more about the changes you may want to make and what you may want to do with them.Do we have unanimous consent?Some hon. members: Agreed.(Clauses 38 and 147 allowed to stand)The Chair: Thank you.Atlantic CanadaC-49, An Act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Atlantic Accord Implementation Act and the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyEnergy and fuelGovernment billsJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1710)[English]I have a point of order, Chair.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English] Mr. Patzer, go ahead.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1710)[English]Thank you, Chair.Right before we suspended, my colleague Mrs. Stubbs was giving her intervention. We hear a lot from the Liberals about “respect, respect, respect”, but I just want to give Mr. Aldag this opportunity to apologize for telling my colleague Mrs. Stubbs to eff off. He mouthed the words. I saw him do it, and so did my colleague Mrs. Stubbs. I know he did it. I would like to afford him the opportunity to unreservedly apologize, because if this is truly about respect and integrity, I would like to afford him the opportunity to show that those are principles he upholds.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Aldag.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley City//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89258JohnAldagJohn-AldagCloverdale—Langley CityLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AldagJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.): (1710)[English]Thank you for that opportunity.I absolutely apologize if I said anything. I do get a bit frustrated when there are personal attacks and things being said, but I shouldn't have expressed my frustration in the way that I did. I apologize to everyone. We need to show respect and uphold the dignity of this place. I will do my best to do that as we continue working forward on this legislation.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1710)[English]That's right.To be clear, the only personal attack was on my colleague, Mrs. Stubbs, who was merely outlining what the government had done for a period of time, which is not a personal attack, but—JohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1710)[English]I have a point of order.JeremyPatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Thank you. I'm going to go to you on a point of order, Mr. Angus.Thank you for your intervention. Thank you for providing that clarity and apology, Mr. Aldag.Colleagues, I just want to remind everyone that we work on committee together, that we use appropriate language and that we conduct ourselves in that manner. I'm glad we've been able to come to a thoughtful resolution on that. Thank you to all parties.I'm going to the point of order from Mr. Angus.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1710)[English]Thank you.I'd like to thank Mr. Aldag for withdrawing. That is what I think is expected. It's also a tradition in Parliament that when someone apologizes that we accept the apology. What I witnessed when that was happening was, I thought, a disgraceful gong show that embarrassed our committee, and there were multiple participants on the Conservative side. I'm not going to name them, but I thank Mr. Aldag for apologizing.I think we need to move on, get the job done that Canadians sent us here to do and show that we're going to do this properly and with professionalism.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Thank you for your point of order on that.Colleagues, I don't want to get into a point of order on a point of order, but I have a point of order from Mr. Dreeshen.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59226EarlDreeshenEarl-DreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DreeshenEarl_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Earl Dreeshen: (1715)[English] Thank you.What Mr. Angus just indicated was that there was much more disorder, and of course he named our side for this, which he does on a regular basis. The point was, I believe, that perhaps Mr. Aldag had a bit more of a conditional apology. There was a lot of exchange going back and forth that was negative—GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Colleagues—and I don't want to cut you off, Mr. Dreeshen—I just noticed that we have bells. We'll leave it at that, but I will at this point ask colleagues for unanimous consent to continue. EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1715)[English]Chair, I asked for the floor before the bells rang. I had asked to speak before the bells. I actually just wanted—GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]I know, Mrs. Stubbs. Unless we have unanimous consent, we cannot, because we do have bells. ShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1715)[English]No, but I had asked to speak before. He was still speaking when the bells started, so we can't have rules for thee and not for me.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Do we have unanimous consent to continue?An hon. member: Yes.Mr. Charlie Angus: No.The Chair: We do not have unanimous consent. I'm sorry. Thank you, everyone—a great day's work. The meeting is adjourned. ShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.)): (1535)[Translation]Good afternoon, everyone.Welcome, Mr. Minister.Ms. Pauzé, I'd like to point out that no one is participating in the meeting virtually, so it wasn't necessary to carry out the sound tests. The room is packed. I'd like to thank the representatives of the Department of the Environment for being here.I think everyone knows the drill.Mr. Minister, you have 10 minutes for your opening remarks. Then, we'll move on to questions from committee members.The floor is yours, Mr. Minister.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Environment and Climate Change): (1535)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.As you mentioned, I am accompanied by several people from the Department of the Environment, Parks Canada and the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada.[English] I am very pleased to join committee members today to discuss the 2023–24 supplementary estimates (C) for my portfolio, which includes Environment and Climate Change Canada, Parks Canada and the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada. I will provide you with an overview, after which my officials and I will be happy to answer your questions.[Translation]Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabeg Nation, who have long been stewards of the environment we share today.Canadians have a lot on their plates. They are concerned about the cost of living, and rightly so. But climate change makes these issues worse. The cost of inaction is stark. If we ignore climate change, by 2025 we could see a $25 billion annual slowdown in our economic growth, according to Canadian Climate Institute. That's why our climate plan is not just a plan for the environment; it's a plan for economic stability.We can't talk about how to fight climate change without talking about nature. Nature‑based solutions are a cornerstone of our climate action plan. Among other things, I'm thinking of the 2 billion trees program, our nature smart climate solutions program, and the commitment to protect at least 30% of land and water by 2030, in partnership with indigenous peoples, provinces and territories.Which brings me to the importance to work closely with indigenous peoples. They have long been leaders in environmental stewardship, sustainable development and the management of natural resources. We have a lot to learn from them.We have committed to supporting indigenous leadership in conservation through programs like the indigenous‑led natural climate solutions program, to help protect ecosystems, species and cultures for future generations.The expenditures I will now present are in line with this urgent need for climate action and biodiversity protection.Let me mention a few significant increases in the supplementary estimates (C) for six main initiatives.First, an increase of $18.5 million is planned for the implementation of the Canada Water Agency and the freshwater action plan. Fresh water sustains life on earth. It supplies drinking water, grows food and supports ecosystems. It's a resource we often take for granted here in Canada, but it is crucial to protect.(1540)[English]Farmers in B.C. and beyond and industry analysts say that dramatic swings in weather are hampering grain and other crop yields at a time when farmers are leaving the sector, and the only way forward is to adapt with technology.[Translation]The renewed and strengthened freshwater action plan will support regionally specific actions to restore and protect the Great Lakes, the St. Lawrence River, Lake Winnipeg and other waterbodies from coast to coast to coast.Next, an increase of $5 million is planned to support the Africa adaptation initiative for the food security accelerator. Let's not forget that climate change and biodiversity loss do not respect borders. This contribution will build on Canada's efforts to tackle food insecurity by investing in a mechanism dedicated to growing innovative small and medium agricultural enterprises in Africa.Furthermore, an increase of $3.3 million is planned for the negotiation and implementation of indigenous rights‑based agreements. Across Canada, first nations, Inuit and Métis communities are disproportionately affected by climate change. These communities know how to recognize signs of imbalance in the environment. This investment will allow the Government of Canada to implement the Musqueam Recognition Agreement with Musqueam Indian Band, and the Burrard Inlet Environmental Science and Stewardship Agreement with Tsleil‑Waututh Nation.In addition, an increase of $3 million is planned to promote the health of Canada's priority at‑risk whale population. This investment will help renew previous activities focused on protecting at‑risk whales using evidence‑based decision‑making grounded by science and technology, and help renew whale programming, including the coordination, implementation and enforcement of management interventions.Lastly, an increase of more than $37 million is planned for wildfire response requirements. This increase has assisted Parks Canada to partially offset the extraordinary expenditures of the 2023 wildfire season that were required to respond to the unprecedented number and intensity of fires in the places across Canada that are administered by Parks Canada.However, I must point out that Parks Canada's efforts have been felt well beyond the boundaries of the sites it administers.[English] For eight years, we've turned over every rock, looking for ways to cut Canada's carbon pollution and to clean our air and water while growing our economy, providing good jobs, and building out affordable and reliable clean energy. We will continue doing so for our children and their children.Thank you for your time.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[Translation]Thank you, Minister.We'll now move on to questions. I would like to acknowledge the presence of Ms. Falk, who is replacing Mr. Leslie.Mr. Deltell, you have the floor for six minutes.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): (1540)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Ladies and gentlemen of the public service, it's always nice to see you, as well as you, Minister. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.Mr. Minister, you started off by talking about the cost of living. Those were almost your first words. Cost of living, of course, means government spending, and that spending needs to be controlled.Following a request for information from my colleague Mr. Mazier, we received a report on the expenditures made by Canada during its participation at the conference in Dubai on January 29. The figure doesn't include everything, since there was other information to come, but we're talking about a total expenditure of $1,353,307.09. As far as you're concerned, Mr. Minister, your air transportation cost taxpayers $13,239.83.When you were on the plane going there, did you think about the cost of living for citizens?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]As you know very well, Mr. Deltell, the fight against climate change requires an international effort. There is no answer or solution to climate change if we do not work together, all of us, at the international level. Roughly speaking, the G20 countries account for about 80% of all greenhouse gas emissions in the world. So it requires a concerted effort.There was record provincial participation in the Dubai conference. I'm thinking of Alberta in particular. It was the largest Alberta delegation in the history of our participation in these conferences. That was also the case for Saskatchewan. There was also very significant participation from a number of other provinces, including our own, Quebec. That explains the cost of Canada's participation in this conference.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]Minister, my question was specifically about your plane trip, which cost Canadian taxpayers $13,239.83.Did you think about the cost of living for Canadians when you were on that plane, yes or no?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]As you know very well, government ministers are subject to very specific spending criteria, those of Treasury Board, and I follow them to the letter. They're essentially the same criteria as when the Conservative government was in power, and the same guidelines.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]I don't think I ever saw an invoice for $13,239.83 to attend a conference in Dubai at that time.I would now like to turn to another topic, that of public spending.What will your strategy be to offset all the greenhouse gas emissions that you, as minister, and your team generated to attend this conference on the other side of the world, in Dubai, in the middle of the desert? That's greenwashing, in my opinion.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]I profoundly disagree with your characterization of Canada's international effort in the fight against climate change.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]I'm not talking about—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]If I may, Mr. Deltell, it was because of those efforts that Canada was able to play a leading role at COP26, COP27 and COP28, where I was one of eight facilitators. Out of 194 countries, the COP28 president chose Canada to be one of eight countries that will facilitate reducing greenhouse gas emissions by billions of tonnes.Before 2015, we were heading towards a world where temperatures were going to rise by 4 degrees Celsius, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC. Now, thanks to the Paris Agreement and its implementation, we're moving towards a world where temperature increases would be in the order of 2.3 degrees Celsius. For every tenth of a degree Celsius less, we are talking about hundreds of billions of tonnes of greenhouse gases that will never be—GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]Mr. Minister—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]—in the atmosphere. I think it's worth—GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]Yes, okay, that's fine—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]—working internationally to be able to do that.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]I'll talk about your record later, but for now, I'm asking you to tell us what your approach is to make up, in an environmentally friendly way, for the two weeks you spent in the middle of the desert in big air-conditioned hotels. I call it greenwashing, clearing your conscience.How much will you, as minister, pay to offset your CO 2 emissions during this trip?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]I think reducing the anticipated temperature increase from 4 degrees to 2.3 degrees Celsius is a proud service to the Canadian people and to the global population as a whole.Obviously, I didn't do it on my own; it's a joint effort, but we must do it together.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]Let's talk about this joint effort.You were at COP28 in Dubai, where Canada's real record was presented. After almost nine years of Liberal government, Canada is now ranked 62nd out of 67 countries in terms of effectiveness in fighting climate change.Are you proud of that record? Are you proud to be the minister representing the country ranked 62nd?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]I'm very proud to be Canada's Minister of Environment and Climate Change, as you know very well, Mr. Deltell. I make a sustained effort every day to carry out this role.You know very well that when we came to power in 2015, the forecast showed that Canada was going to miss its 2030 targets by at least 12%. Currently, according to the latest inventory of greenhouse gas emissions, we are 7% below 2015 levels. Missing that target is a legacy of your government and—GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]I just want to remind you—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]—and the difference between the two is the equivalent of taking over 16 million vehicles off the road. So imagine Canada with 16 million more vehicles on its roads and their impact on air and climate pollution.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]When you were an activist, Canada was ranked 58th. Since you've been minister, it's been ranked 62nd. Are you proud of that?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1545)[Translation]You quite like—GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1545)[Translation]It's because—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1550)[Translation]I know that you quite like referring to that report, and I imagine that you have read it in detail.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1550)[Translation]Martians didn't produce that report, scientists from around the world did, and we ranked 62nd.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[Translation]We'll allow the minister to answer. You don't have much time left, but go ahead. I'll give you a little more time.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1550)[Translation]I'm sure you've read the report in detail. You know very well why Canada's ranking is what it is in the report. The report explains that it's because of the increase in greenhouse gas emissions from the oil and gas sector. We're doing everything we can to reduce that impact, but unfortunately, your party is doing everything it can to oppose it.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[Translation]We'll stop there and go to Ms. Taylor Roy.By the way, I'd like to welcome Mr. Scheer, who is joining us.Ms. Taylor Roy, you have the floor for six minutes.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieLeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105024LeahTaylor RoyLeah-TaylorRoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TaylorRoyLeah_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Taylor Roy (Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, Lib.): (1550)[English] Thank you very much.Mr. Guilbeault, we are proud to have you as our minister of the environment. Thank you for the work you have been doing. We have made significant progress.My question is actually around the supplementary estimates. I saw some additional money for the freshwater action plan. I was in my riding last week on Friday, where we were able to talk to a number of the groups that are very excited about funding they're going to be getting to help fight the phosphorus loading in Lake Simcoe, which I believe is part of that plan. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the freshwater action plan and whether the Canada water agency is going to be responsible for that plan.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1550)[English]The majority of our efforts in terms of the freshwater action plan were amalgamated in 2017 through that plan. Since then, and more specifically in budget 2023, we have invested $650 million to strengthen the freshwater action plan, which is an historic investment in the history of our country for freshwater management and freshwater protection. This includes $420 million over 10 years for the Great Lakes and the Great Lakes area, as well as a number of other bodies of water across the country. There is, however, a clear focus on the Great Lakes—and yes, the Canada water agency will be responsible for implementing the elements of the freshwater action plan as well as managing those investments announced in budget 2023.LeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105024LeahTaylor RoyLeah-TaylorRoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TaylorRoyLeah_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Taylor Roy: (1550)[English]Thank you.To follow up on that, in talking to the environmental groups, the conservation authorities and the activists last Friday, it was clear that there is a lot of work to be done to address the damage that has been done to our lakes and our freshwater bodies. How will this freshwater action plan address stopping further degradation of these water bodies? Will this money and the agency also be used to ensure that no further damage is done?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1550)[English]That's a good question.In my initial remarks, I talked about the fact that we hold about 20% of the world's freshwater reserves. I think that sometimes we tend to take it for granted, but right now, as we speak, in Alberta they're having to ration water for residents, for farmers and for the private sector, for companies. We have farmers not just in Alberta but in the Prairies who are selling their livestock because of the droughts. They just can't feed them or give them enough water.Despite the fact that we're a nation that's rich in fresh water, we have to do a lot of work to protect it and to ensure that, moving forward, with the activities we have—especially the industrial activities, but also in the agriculture sector—we put in place measures that will minimize the impact on our freshwater reserves.LeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105024LeahTaylor RoyLeah-TaylorRoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TaylorRoyLeah_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Taylor Roy: (1550)[English] Thank you.The Chippewas of Georgina Island actually live on Lake Simcoe, on Georgina Island. I think indigenous knowledge is very important to pay attention to here. We often talk about fresh water as a resource or a commodity, whereas for them it's very different: It really is life. I appreciate the work that's being done through the Canada water agency.I'd like to turn now to nature-based climate solutions, because I noticed we also had funding for that. How is Canada encouraging nature-based climate solutions, not just here but also globally?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1550)[English]As part of our COP26 Glasgow commitment, in which countries like Canada and many of our G20 partners were encouraged to step up to the plate when it comes to climate financing, we did that. We doubled our climate finance commitment to $5.3 billion over five years. We dedicated 20% of that to nature-based solutions. We know that in the fight against climate change, our biggest and strongest ally is nature. When we protect a wetland that will filter our water, it will do so at roughly a sixth of the cost of building a plant to do it. Once you've protected the wetland, you don't have maintain it. You don't have to invest in keeping it up to date the way you would have to do with a plant. Unfortunately, we can't do that all the time, but whenever we can use nature, it is the best investment in the fight against climate change.I can talk about a number of our initiatives. Basically, $1 billion of our climate financing will go to nature-based solutions. I recently made an announcement of $15 million to support the Ocean Risk and Resilience Action Alliance and the Global Fund for Coral Reefs. We know that coral reefs are being heavily impacted by climate change.There are a number of initiatives that Canada is broadly supporting here, obviously, in terms of nature-based solutions.LeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105024LeahTaylor RoyLeah-TaylorRoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TaylorRoyLeah_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Taylor Roy: (1555)[English]Fantastic.I think I have time for one more quick question.In Ontario, my riding of Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill is in the Greenbelt, on the Oak Ridges moraine, where there are a lot of very sensitive areas—not just hydrologically sensitive, but also other green areas. I've found that the provincial government currently seems to be going in the opposite direction from us. How can we work more effectively with the provincial governments to try to ensure that we move in the same direction and preserve these green spaces and don't build highways like the Bradford bypass or the 413 through farmland and wetlands and over rivers? Do you have any thoughts on that?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Unfortunately, we'll have to work that answer into another answer at some point.We'll go now to Madame Pauzé.LeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé (Repentigny, BQ): (1555)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Minister, thank you for being here with us. Welcome to the committee.I would also like to thank all the officials who are with you.You talked a lot about water with Ms. Taylor Roy. So I'm going to ask you about that.I would like to talk to you specifically about the water from Chalk River, where the well-known near-surface disposal facility is located. The site has been off limits to the public for at least the past 80 years. The site is very close to the Ottawa River. It's an environment that provides a source of drinking water for millions of Quebecers, as well as large mammals.You're going to tell me that issues related to Chalk River and nuclear waste are your colleague Mr. Wilkinson's responsibility. However, some aspects affect the environment, including faunal richness, which is remarkable; the forest is home to three species of endangered bats, migratory birds at risk and active black bear dens. In addition, a wetland is home to Blanding's turtles, which Canada has identified as an endangered species since 2006. The Species at Risk Act is the responsibility of the Department of Environment and Climate Change, and it's directly related to the Chalk River disposal facility.Mr. Minister, are you going to intervene so that at least a regional environmental impact assessment is done for this project, which I feel I should qualify as senseless?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1555)[Translation]As you said at the beginning of your question, Ms. Pauzé, that project falls under the Department of Energy and Natural Resources. The Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission is responsible for conducting public consultations and the impact assessment, as provided for in the federal Impact Assessment Act.We absolutely operated under the federal impact assessment legislation for that project. The assessment and public consultations took a number of years.MoniquePauzéRepentignyMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1555)[Translation]The fact remains that certain aspects of Chalk River are the Department of the Environment's responsibility.A number of stakeholders have called for a regional impact assessment for the area around Chalk River, including the Ottawa River, which borders part of Quebec and part of Ontario.Once again, everyone is working in silos. This involves the Department of the Environment, Indigenous Services Canada and the Department of Natural Resources. All three departments are involved.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1555)[Translation]I agree with you, but what's true for the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission is, generally speaking, also true for the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada. When the agency conducts an impact assessment, it also holds public consultations—we could say that this doesn't necessarily concern the environment. Efforts are being made to reconcile with indigenous peoples. The Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission is mandated under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act to assess nuclear projects. It has the expertise. According to the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, which was passed in 2019, it's responsible for that, not only for the nuclear component, but also for public consultations and compliance with federal environmental law. Just because that agency is doing it doesn't mean the environment isn't considered.MoniquePauzéRepentignyMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1600)[Translation]There were 140 municipalities that rejected the project, and all the indigenous communities rejected it as well. I was told in the House that the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission is independent. If I wasn't elected to take the people into account, to work on behalf of the people and their health and to protect the environment, then I don't know what I'm doing here. I'm a little disappointed in your answer, but I'll move on to another question.I'd like to talk about the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. I met with representatives of two indigenous nations that are distressed by Imperial Oil's presence and neglect. For 20 years, they've been asking the department and Health Canada to conduct investigations in their region to shed light on the impact of toxic substances dumped in the Athabasca River.Can you explain to me why these communities are not being heard? Representatives of these communities came to my office to tell me that the government was ignoring the communities. The requests were urgent, and they go back more than 20 years, but nothing is happening.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1600)[Translation]Since I became Minister of the Environment, that is to say for the past two and a half years, I have probably had around 10 meetings with representatives of those communities. A few weeks ago, I met with representatives of the Mikisew Cree First Nation. We have set up a working committee on the issue of settling ponds. This committee is made up of federal and indigenous representatives.I don't know if I can call it a white paper, but we released a first report last summer and, if memory serves, it proposes more than a dozen measures that could be put in place to address the problems in these ponds. This has never been done in the history of the country. This is the first time that a federal government has sat down with indigenous people to find a permanent solution to the issue surrounding these ponds.MoniquePauzéRepentignyMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1600)[Translation]It has to do with health. The chief appeared before the committee. He told us that he hadn't been able to meet with the Minister of Health. He met with someone from cabinet, but he wasn't able to meet with the Minister of Health. It seems to me that this directly involves the Department of the Environment and the Department of Health.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[Translation]Ms. Pauzé, your time is up.Ms. Collins, you have the floor for six minutes.MoniquePauzéRepentignyLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP): (1600)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the minister and to all the officials for coming today. Minister, you talked about how Canadians are concerned about the cost of living crisis and the climate crisis. You mentioned the $25-billion slowdown in our economy that is expected because of climate change. Last night, hundreds of youth from across Canada joined us for a town hall on a youth climate corps. We had MPs from across party lines—Ms. May and Mr. van Koeverden were in attendance—and there is a real appetite from young people for this kind of transformative program. They really want an answer. If this government is serious about tackling the climate crisis and supporting young people in entering into the jobs of the future, are you considering funding something like this?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1600)[English] I've met many of those, including one of the instigators of this proposal, Mr. Klein, just a few weeks ago. It wasn't my first meeting with him, obviously. I think the proposal has merit, but I would somewhat beg to differ with the characterization of your question: We are supporting youth employment in environmental issues every year.Not doing this doesn't mean we're doing nothing, and this certainly looks like an interesting project. I'm not the Minister of Finance. This is.... We are studying the possibility of supporting that project.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1600)[English]I'm glad to hear you're considering it and I hope you meet with young people. We have hundreds of young people across Canada who joined in-person watch parties, and they are passionate about making a difference. They're worried about the climate crisis. They want to get engaged. This is a really tangible way to do that.Last year when you were here around this time, I asked you about the Trans Mountain pipeline. At the time, the costs had ballooned to $30.9 billion. This year, the costs have risen even more, bringing the total to $34 billion. At the time. I asked you if you thought purchasing the Trans Mountain pipeline was a mistake. You said you couldn't answer and that would be a question for the Minister of Finance. I'm curious if now, a year later, with costs rising even more, you believe that purchasing the Trans Mountain pipeline was a mistake.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]I would unfortunately give you the same answer I gave you last time. This is a question that you should ask the finance minister. The environment minister is not responsible for the financing of—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English]You are part of this government. You sit at the cabinet table. You make decisions with this government. Do you think it's a mistake?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]Again, I would suggest you ask this question of the Minister of Finance about this project and the financing of this project.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English]That answer makes me think that deep down, you believe that it was a mistake to purchase the Trans Mountain pipeline, but you're not willing or you don't have the courage to say it. This is what we've seen from—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]Your words— LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English]This is what we've seen from your government time and time again. You might believe in climate change, but you're not willing to take the action required. This government has continued to invest billions of dollars in carbon capture and storage, which maybe would be fine if the money were going just to direct air capture projects for hard-to-reduce emissions like steel and cement, but you're handing that money to big oil and gas companies that are making record profits. Why would you not exclude them from the carbon capture and storage tax breaks so that those billions of dollars could be invested in climate solutions and those companies that have been fuelling the climate crisis could pay to clean up their own pollution?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]I disagree with the characterization of your question again. We've done more—and you've heard that from many environmental leaders in this country, who've recognized publicly that we've done more—than any other government to fight climate change—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English]Environmental leaders have been calling on you to stop funding carbon capture and storage, to stop handing out billions of dollars—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden (Milton, Lib.): (1605)[English]I have a point of order.LaurelCollinsVictoriaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Go ahead, Mr. van Koeverden.Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden: (1605)[English]I believe it's a convention to allow the minister to use exactly the amount of time at least as the question takes—FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English]I think it's actually mentioned that it's my time—Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]We don't actually function that way in this committee. It's a little more freewheeling—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English]—and I think the ministercan defend himself—FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Excuse me.We don't actually function that way in this committee. It's a little more freewheeling. I stopped the clock. Where were we? Was the minister answering?LaurelCollinsVictoriaStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]I was going to answer, with your permission, Mr. Chair.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Go ahead, please.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]Someone who used to advise your party, as well as other NDP parties in this country, has said in a public interview that.... When asked what people would remember of our government, he said that it's the first government to ever take climate change seriously in the history of Canada. This is someone who used to work for the NDP, not someone who worked for the Liberals. I think a lot of people out there see that we're doing more than anyone has ever done to fight climate change, but you and I would agree that we need to do more. We could certainly agree on that.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English]I would hope that we could find agreement that we want to stop handing out billions of dollars to profitable oil and gas companies, but I haven't heard that agreement from you or from your party. Unfortunately, carbon capture and storage is just another giveaway to big oil and gas, much like buying a pipeline, which now costs taxpayers $34 billion. Those billions of dollars should be going into real climate solutions. I do want to ask you—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]A few weeks ago, I met with the leader of the company that's doing direct air capture. The tax credits for carbon capture and storage are not industry-specific—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English]If you'd left it to them, if you'd excluded oil and gas from receiving this, great, but you didn't. You decided to include oil and gas companies in this tax credit. That was a choice. It is a choice by a government that continues to funnel—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]—because we need to decarbonize every sector of our economy—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1605)[English] —public money into the pockets of oil and gas CEOs.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Mr. Minister, go ahead. I'll give you a little extra time.LaurelCollinsVictoriaStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1605)[English]A fossil fuel subsidy as defined by the World Trade Organization is money from government going to a specific sector which gives that sector advantage over others from a financial or economic point of view. That's not what we're doing with carbon capture and storage. It's open to every sector where this technology could be applied: cement, steel, aluminum, electricity production, direct air capture and, yes, also oil and gas.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]We'll go to Mr. Mazier to start off the five-minute round.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier (Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, CPC): (1605)[English]Thank you, Chair.Minister, you mentioned the cost of living. Seven out of 10 provinces oppose your government's plan to increase the carbon tax by 23%. Seventy per cent of all Canadians oppose your government's plan to increase the carbon tax by 23%. Do you still plan to hike the carbon tax on April 1, yes or no?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]As the Supreme Court said in its ruling two years ago, it's not a tax; it's a pricing mechanism. It doesn't go back into general revenue of the government. It's revenue neutral, and all of the money collected goes back—DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Minister—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]—but yes, we will move ahead with the increase of carbon pricing, as well as the rebate, on April 1.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Since you were elected, can you name one federal policy that was opposed by seven provincial governments?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]Can you repeat the question? Sorry.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Can you name one federal policy since you were elected that was opposed by seven provincial governments?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]I could probably think of a few, but you're looking for.... I'm not sure how this is relevant to the supplementary estimates (C). Perhaps you can specify.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]It has to do with talking about carbon pricing. There was only one policy that was rejected by seven provinces, and it's your failed carbon policy, Minister.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]Many provinces oppose many things we're trying to do on the environment, which is not a reason that we shouldn't be doing them. Many provinces opposed impact assessments. They opposed the idea that we should look at climate change when looking at the impacts of projects. I profoundly disagree with that position. They opposed including indigenous nations when we do the impact assessments of projects. I profoundly disagree with that. That's a clear example. Many provinces—more provinces than on pricing, actually—were opposed to it, and we decided to continue going forward with it.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Minister, the Chiefs of Ontario represent over 130 first nations. They say your carbon tax is making life unaffordable. Are they wrong?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]There are many different views within indigenous communities in Canada on carbon pricing. Some of them support it. Some of them don't.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Those 130 first nations say your carbon tax is making life unaffordable. Are they wrong?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]As I said, there are more than 630 or 640 indigenous nations in Canada. Some of them support carbon pricing. Some of them don't.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Despite Canadians asking—right across this country, seven provinces, 130 first nations in Ontario, 70% of Canadians—it's very clear that you're just not listening to Canadians, Minister, when it comes to this carbon tax. StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]We've done two elections where carbon pricing was.... In fact, your own party during the last election ran on a campaign to put in place carbon pricing. We listened to Canadians. We said we would do that—DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]That's about two years ago. I'm talking about—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]—in the 2021 election, and we're doing it. We got elected on a platform to put in place a pricing mechanism. DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]You promised not to raise it as well, Minister, so—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]That's simply not true.That's simply not true—DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]I think we're getting sidetracked. I think the points have been made.Go ahead, Mr. Mazier.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Minister, when was the last time you filled up your car with gas?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]It's a well-known fact that I don't own a car. It's public knowledge. My service vehicle is a fully electric vehicle, as are the vehicles of many cabinet ministers now.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Sir, have you ever owned a personal vehicle?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]I've never owned a personal vehicle, which is also a well-known fact. DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]You're increasing the price of gas without personally understanding the consequences of your policy.Hon. Steven Guilbeault: That's—Mr. Dan Mazier: I just can't believe—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]This may come as a shock to you, but I know people who own cars.Mr. Dan Mazier: That wasn't a question. It was a statement—Hon. Steven Guilbeault: This may sound incredible, but I know people who own cars, and I speak with them on a regular.... I have family members—brothers and sisters—who own cars, and I speak with them on a regular basis, believe it or not. I know this sounds surprising, but it's true, and you can verify that information.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English]Minister, you stated, and I quote, “The government does not measure the annual amount of emissions that are directly reduced by federal carbon pricing.” Why are you increasing the carbon tax if you don't measure the direct results?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1610)[English]The question was about the movement of individuals in Canada, including cabinet ministers. As you know, or you should know, there is an annual document that is published by the Government of Canada, the greenhouse gas inventory, which is a detailed document that measures the emissions by sector, by province. It's been going on for I don't know how many years—probably more than 20 years now—and it's usually published around April. There was one last year. There will be another inventory this year. I'd be happy for the department to—DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1610)[English] Minister, I asked you—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[Translation]Unfortunately, we have to stop there.Mrs. Chatel, the floor is yours.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaSophieChatelPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110225SophieChatelSophie-ChatelPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChatelSophie_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Sophie Chatel (Pontiac, Lib.): (1610)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here with us. I would also like to thank your fine team.I, too, am very proud of the work that all of you do.I wanted to go back to what you said in your opening remarks. You were talking about the key role indigenous peoples are playing to help reach Canada's biodiversity goals and targets, for example. I know, because we talked about it. We worked with your team.You've produced concrete results. You've allocated budgets to projects. Outaouais may be one of the first regions in Canada to have an action plan to achieve the targets. This plan will be led by the Anishinabe community of Kitigan Zibi. That's because of you. It's because of the work you're doing and the priority you're putting on it. As the saying goes, you walk the talk. Thank you.I invite you to tell that story in other regions that would like to have a plan like that. What will the programs you've implemented with indigenous peoples actually do for Canada?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1615)[Translation]We've put in place a series of programs. I'm thinking in particular of the indigenous guardians program. That said, there are also indigenous-led conservation programs. Several hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars have been invested in conservation.Last week we signed an agreement with the Nunatsiavut government to protect the marine conservation area right next to Torngat Mountains National Park, so the northeast tip of Labrador. Just before the holidays, we signed an agreement with the Government of the Northwest Territories and the indigenous governments of the Northwest Territories. At the end of the day, there will be a million square kilometres of new protected areas. That's four times the size of Great Britain. We have a number of projects. The vast majority of conservation projects are led by indigenous people.Mrs. Chatel, I congratulate you because you were very involved in the project with Kitigan Zibi. We've been there to support that on our side.Partnership with indigenous peoples is essential if we want to achieve our nature conservation goals, but also to fight climate change.SophieChatelPontiacSophieChatelPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110225SophieChatelSophie-ChatelPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChatelSophie_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Sophie Chatel: (1615)[Translation]Thank you.In your opening remarks, you talked about the Canada Water Agency and what it can do for farmers. I have a number of farmers in my riding. In fact, last week, I toured a number of farms.You're right, farmers are concerned about climate change. It greatly increases their stress levels. There's also the issue of water levels. You were talking earlier about livestock. How can the Canada Water Agency concretely support our farmers in the face of this new situation caused by climate change?As you said, 2024 may be the hottest year ever. We know that farmers are on the front lines of climate change.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1615)[Translation]Yes, there have been many studies.I was in Nova Scotia last week and met with some farmers. Hurricane Fiona, which destroyed fields for cattle and dairy farms, pastures that were used to produce food, resulted in damages of hundreds of thousands of dollars per farm. That is just one catastrophe, not to mention the flooded fields. Nova Scotia has had the worst flooding in its history and the worst forest fires.Climate change has many effects, and they differ widely from one part of the country to the other. In some places, there is not enough water, such as in the Prairies, with the long-standing drought. The east fared a bit better. The situation in British Columbia is very problematic. The entire winegrowing industry was hard hit by climate change once again this year. The effects of climate change on the agriculture sector are getting worse every year.And yet the Conservative Party's response is to create more pollution and to make it free, to have more climate change and effects of climate change, as well as eliminating assistance programs for agriculture. I think that response lacks judgment.SophieChatelPontiacSophieChatelPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110225SophieChatelSophie-ChatelPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChatelSophie_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Sophie Chatel: (1620)[Translation]I would also like to confirm something about dairy farms so that Canadians clearly understand the consequences of climate change. If there is not enough food for the cows because of dry pastures, for instance, there are very clear repercussions, and not just for one season. Those cows cannot produce milk or give birth. StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[Translation]We have to stop there, Ms. Chatel.Ms. Pauzé, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.SophieChatelPontiacMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1620)[Translation]I have a quick question for you, minister, which should be easy to answer.When Bill S‑5 finally received royal assent last year, the government said it was planning to update the toxic substances management policy. Where are we at with that?S-5, An Act to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999, to make related amendments to the Food and Drugs Act and to repeal the Perfluorooctane Sulfonate Virtual Elimination ActFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1620)[Translation]I do not have that information with me.Mr. Moffet, do you have the information on hand?MoniquePauzéRepentignyMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1620)[Translation]Since he has the information, I will ask him in the second hour.Minister, I would like to talk about the emissions cap, a promise made in 2021, as we know. Yet it appears that we will essentially have nothing until 2030. Multinationals will be granted emissions rights, the same companies that racked up record profits in 2022.The minister's natural allies have made their position known. According to the David Suzuki Foundation, “the framework allows industry to bypass real emissions reduction.” According to Équiterre, “the framework lacks ambition and rigour. There are too many loopholes.” According to Greenpeace, “This isn't yet the ambitious emissions cap we need to set us on a path to the full … phase-out of fossil fuels.”I would like to ask you something. Your colleague, the Minister of Employment and Workforce Development, pointed out that his meetings with lobbyists from the Pathways Alliance were valuable for drafting the details of the cap. Did you meet with those lobbyists? Were they as important to you as they were to the Minister of Employment and Workforce Development?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1620)[Translation]The Minister of Employment and Workforce Development was not involved in developing the framework, except for the decision made in cabinet; it was the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change who was responsible for that. So I am not sure what you are referring to.I do not have the press releases from Équiterre or the David Suzuki Foundation in front of me, but I think if you look at the beginning of each of those press releases, you will see that they welcomed the tabling of the regulatory framework for capping greenhouse gas emissions. As with other environmental groups in general, they would like to see more. I know how it is because I was part of environmental groups for 25 years. If you have them with you, you could share them—MoniquePauzéRepentignyMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1620)[Translation]I have some excerpts of the press releases. In the Greenpeace one, the initial remarks are not positive. Greenpeace stated that it was not really the emissions cap—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1620)[Translation]You have excerpts. Greenpeace Canada's response was not the same as that of Greenpeace Québec.MoniquePauzéRepentignyFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[Translation]We have to agree that the time is up.Ms. Collins has the floor now.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1620)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to ask the minister about forestry.You mentioned the $35 million to respond to forest fires. Do you have a sense of how much forest fires and wildfires are costing Canadians right now?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1620)[English]I don't think we have the cost yet. I think this is still being costed out. We would be happy to provide that information to the committee when it's available.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1620)[English]I would love to see the government's analysis. In 2023, 18.5 million hectares of forest burned in wildfires across Canada. That is astronomical and unprecedented, more than double the area in the last worst wildfire season.Without counting the health costs and the costs of damages on private property, there was a report saying that it cost about a billion dollars. While $35 million sounds like a lot, it may not be enough to tackle this huge issue that Canadians are facing. People are being evacuated from their homes. We are seeing kids choking on smoke. One of the proposals that we put forward is a national firefighting force, a force that could respond to wildfires. We know that fighting forest fires is a provincial responsibility, but crews get quickly overwhelmed when we have unprecedented fires, and we are going to see more and more unprecedented wildfire seasons. They could also work year-round thinning forests and doing the kind of management that will hopefully prevent some of the catastrophic impacts.I'm curious about where your government is on this proposal. StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[English]I'll answer your question, but you understand that the $35 million was specific to the work that Parks Canada did in fighting forest fires last season. It's not the entirety of the federal government's response to the cost of the forest fires. A lot of this will come from the ministry for emergency preparedness. We have a number of funds that are there to help and support Canadians. The reality is that—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1625)[English] I would—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[English]—most of the money that has been spent by those funds has been spent in the last 10 years. The funds have been in place for—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1625)[English]I'd love to hear just the answer to the question about the proposal.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[English]You may have heard the Prime Minister last June when he was asked a similar question—LaurelCollinsVictoriaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Please be very brief.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[English] It could be either a federal force for fighting forest fires or something like FEMA in the U.S., a national intervention force that could help with natural catastrophes. The Prime Minister has said that this is something that is interesting and that we're looking at it. FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you.Mr. Scheer, you have five minutes.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer (Regina—Qu'Appelle, CPC): (1625)[English]Thank you very much.I have a few very brief questions. The answers should be yes or no, so just out of respect for my time, I ask the minister to keep his answers short.Minister, do you have confidence in the Parliamentary Budget Officer?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]Yes, I have confidence in him. AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]Do you believe in his economic and fiscal report and the facts he finds?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]In his reports on climate change, specifically the one on pollution pricing, he stated that he had not considered the impact of climate change in his analysis.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]I'm sorry—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]I do not share the opinion he stated in his analysis of pollution pricing.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]You're saying that you disagree with his findings on the cost of the carbon tax. StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]That's right, I do not agree with him. I have said that publicly before. This is not my first time saying it.Further, he himself admits that his analysis does not include the impact of climate change.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]Thank you, Minister.On page 3 of the Parliamentary Budget Officer's findings, he states that in 2023-24, the average family in Alberta will pay $2,466 in total costs. When you factor in the direct and all the secondary effects in the economy, it will cost the average family in Alberta $2,466. Can you tell me what the rebate will be in Alberta?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]Obviously, I am the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change and not the Parliamentary Budget Officer. If you have questions for him—AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]I'm sorry—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]—you can certainly ask him.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]Minister—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]You will find some figures on the finance department website.Your question was about Alberta—AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]For Alberta, in 2023-24—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]You can find that information on the finance department website. The cost per household is $1056.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]With all due respect, Minister, it's a simple question. The cost is $2,466.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]The rebate is $1,700, which means a difference of about $700 for families.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]I'm sorry. Can you just repeat that? What is the rebate in Alberta?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]On the finance department website, you will find a table that we can of course provide to the committee. The average cost of carbon pricing is $1056 per household. The annual rebate is $1779, for a net benefit of $723.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]What you have done there is you've just excluded all those secondary costs. You're not talking about the total costs of the carbon tax. The total cost of the carbon tax in Alberta is going to be $2,466. You just said, I think, that the rebate was $1,756. Which number is bigger? Is it $2,466 or $1,756?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]The most important figure is the average cost of the impacts of climate change. In Canada, it is $2 billion annually—AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]You and your government—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]That $2 billion is more than all the amounts you mentioned.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]—are trying to pretend that the rebate covers the total costs of the carbon tax. The Parliamentary Budget Officer has found, has concluded, after studying all the impacts—the direct costs but also the secondary costs, as producers and shippers and retailers have to raise their prices—that it costs families.I'll move on to Ontario. It will cost the average working family in Ontario $1,363. Can you tell me what the rebate will be for a family in Ontario?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]In his analysis, the Parliamentary Budget Officer himself admits that he did not take into account the impacts of climate change that we are all paying for, whether you like it or not, Mr. Scheer.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]That's not what the question was. It's just a simple question. What is the rebate for a family in Ontario?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1625)[Translation]I will forward the information from the finance department to the committee. Their website is public.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1625)[English]You and all your Liberal colleagues were waving these cards around in the House just a couple of days ago. You were carrying them around, and then we started pointing out that the rebate is actually less than the costs, and suddenly those cards have all disappeared, and you're not waving them around quite as much as you used to.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1630)[Translation]I did not agree with the PBO's report last year, and I still disagree.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]Minister, you stated—StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieSophieChatelPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110225SophieChatelSophie-ChatelPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChatelSophie_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Sophie Chatel: (1630)[Translation]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Okay, we need a break. It's like in wrestling: Everyone go to your corner.SophieChatelPontiacFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: I've stopped the clock. I don't know where we're at now. It is a chicken-and-egg thing. Does the question come first or the answer?Go ahead, Mr. Scheer. Let's try to not all speak at the same time.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]The minister stated a falsehood a few moments ago when answering my colleague. He said that the Liberal government, under this Prime Minister, had never promised that the carbon tax wouldn't go up. That is false. In 2019 your predecessor, Catherine McKenna, promised—she stated—that the carbon tax would not go up beyond $50 a tonne. Can you tell—FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1630)[Translation]We had a general election in 2021—AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden: (1630)[English] On a point of order, Mr. Chair— StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]That was not a question.Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Go ahead on a point of order. AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden: (1630)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We're here to talk to the minister about the estimates. I am curious as to whether carbon pricing is in the estimates. Is this relevant?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Is it relevant? Carbon pricing is an important economic and environmental issue and it no doubt impacts government decisions that are reflected in the estimates. I think it would be good to give the minister a chance to answer something.Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]On a point of order, I wasn't asking a question; I was stating a fact.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Okay.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]There's really nothing for the minister to respond to unless he wants to reflect on why he stated a falsehood, but he doesn't need to do that right yet and take that out of my time. I do have a question, though. FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Go ahead, because you're running out of time.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]I hope these points of order aren't coming out of my time. Can you promise Canadians today that the carbon tax will not go up beyond $170 a tonne? Can you make that commitment?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1630)[Translation]As I pointed out earlier, it is not a tax, and the Supreme Court was very clear about that. It is a fee system.Either you agree with the Supreme Court or you don't. I have often heard your party refer to Supreme Court decisions.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]Whatever word you want to use, will you axe the price? Will it ever go up beyond $170 a tonne? Can you promise that it will not go higher than $170 a tonne? StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1630)[Translation]Our commitment was to increase it to $170 per tonne by 2030—AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]Sir, can you make that promise?StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1630)[Translation]—and we have not made any commitments for subsequent phases.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleAndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'Appelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25454AndrewScheerHon.Andrew-ScheerRegina—Qu'AppelleConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScheerAndrew_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Andrew Scheer: (1630)[English]You cannot commit that it won't go higher.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1630)[Translation]We have not made any commitment one way or the other.AndrewScheerHon.Regina—Qu'AppelleFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[Translation]It is Mr. Longfield's turn now. You have the floor, Mr. Longfield.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88761LloydLongfieldLloyd-LongfieldGuelphLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongfieldLloyd_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Lloyd Longfield (Guelph, Lib.): (1630)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the minister and to the officials for being here. It's fantastic to see the team in person. I want to go back to the estimates, particularly around the science investments and the transfer to the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council and biophysical sciences. I was at an event in my riding last week with Dr. Paul Hebert. He was awarded the Benjamin Franklin Medal for Earth and Environmental Science for his work on biodiversity. He is one of only four Canadians in 200 years to receive the medal. He's developed a system for tracking DNA whether it's in the air, in the water or in parts of DNA sequencing from animals.I know, Minister, that you've been involved with the global biodiversity framework. In 2022 we hosted COP15, and I know you were involved with the international partners to halt and reverse biodiversity loss. Dr. Hebert is working on monitoring the biodiversity loss. In fact, he's looking at it as a life forecast, not a weather forecast, and he's developing a platform for that. Could you share with the committee how the government is working with the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework? FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1630)[English]Thank you for the question.COP15, which led to the adoption of the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework, is referred to by many journalists, scientists and activists as “the Paris moment for nature”. The first time the conference of nations committed to protecting at least 30% of lands and waters by 2030, 30% was not a number that came out of a hat: It was based on the equivalent of the IPCC research, but for biodiversity. Obviously it's not a ceiling; it's a floor. It's at least 30% of lands and waters.When we came into power in 2015, Canada was not even protecting 1% of its oceans and coastlines. We're now at almost 15% and on our way to meeting our 2030 target of 30%. We're a little below 14% for terrestrial, and we've invested massively since 2021, with $4 billion for nature protection, including $2.3 billion over five years for Canada's enhanced nature legacy, under which we have signed an agreement with a number of provinces and territories, including Nova Scotia, Yukon and B.C.. We have made an historic announcement regarding our commitment to work together to achieve 30% by 2030, and we are working with a number of other jurisdictions on these bilateral agreements. We are investing historic amounts, but it's not just about investment. We have to work with partners. I was talking with MP Chatel earlier about indigenous-led conservation, which is a cornerstore, but we also need to, and want to, work with our provincial and territorial colleagues on that.LloydLongfieldGuelphLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88761LloydLongfieldLloyd-LongfieldGuelphLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongfieldLloyd_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Lloyd Longfield: (1635)[English] Thank you.I was very interested in the transfer to NSERC and how Environment and Climate Change Canada is working with other departments. Dr. Hebert said that we can get DNA from our weather forecasting using existing equipment. Is that science going to Industry and Innovation or is it going to Environment and Climate Change? It's about how departments interact and try to come together around science. I chair the science and research committee, and it's something near and dear to me. Could you comment on the science that's going on in the government departments and how they're working together with guidance from your folks? StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieStevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/14171StevenGuilbeaultHon.Steven-GuilbeaultLaurier—Sainte-MarieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GuilbeaultSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Guilbeault: (1635)[English] I think J.F. would like to take this one, if you'll allow me. LloydLongfieldGuelphLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88761LloydLongfieldLloyd-LongfieldGuelphLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongfieldLloyd_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Lloyd Longfield: (1635)[English]Absolutely.StevenGuilbeaultHon.Laurier—Sainte-MarieJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay (Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment): (1635)[English] We have departments that are really science-based departments. Environment is one of them. There are committees among the departments that are really important and significant from a science perspective.We of course share a common agenda. Our scientists work together. We try to encourage them more and more to do that, even sometimes in sharing the same labs in the same place so that the ideas can come together and we can avoid duplication. That's constantly what we're trying to achieve.LloydLongfieldGuelphLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88761LloydLongfieldLloyd-LongfieldGuelphLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LongfieldLloyd_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Lloyd Longfield: (1635)[English]Well, I'll be in touch. Guelph has the largest DNA data repository in the world now. There is a lab in India that's being named after Dr. Hebert for his pioneering work. I'm trying to find room for him to try to join the conversation.Jean-FrançoisTremblayFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]That's very interesting.I want to thank the minister for making himself available and exchanging thoughts with us.We'll take a very short break. We'll continue with the ministry representatives at the table to answer questions. [Translation]Thank you for your time, minister.We will take a short break now.(1635)(1640)LloydLongfieldGuelphFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[Translation]Order.We will begin right away so we can finish on time.We will have two rounds of questions.Mr. Kram, you have the floor for six minutes.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram (Regina—Wascana, CPC): (1640)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.I'll start with Deputy Minister Tremblay.Just before Christmas, the Regina food bank released a report that said one in four children in Regina was food insecure. That's a polite way of saying that they don't have enough to eat. Prior to now and prior to last Christmas, were you aware that one in four children in Regina was food insecure?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1640)[English]I'm not sure I had the numbers for Regina. I spent a lot of time on the issues of the food banks when I was the deputy minister of ESDC, because that was part of the mandate. Like any Canadian, I'm quite concerned by this issue of affordability. I'm quite pleased to see that inflation is going down a bit. I hope it's going to continue that way.Yes, I was aware of that. More and more, food banks are asking.... They are actually saying that they have needs that are higher than what they have experienced over the last few years, for sure.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1640)[English]I should have been clearer. I didn't necessarily mean you personally, off of the top of your head, but your department: Do you keep track of rising food bank use in different provinces or different metropolitan areas?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1640)[English]I don't think the department is necessarily the one responsible to track those things. I would like them to track the indicators on the environment, which is their core responsibility, but they're aware and take it into consideration, of course. The rest of the departments do that too, on any measures we're taking, and the impacts on the rest of the population.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1640)[English]This April 1, we're going to see a 23% increase in the carbon tax. Does the department have any modelling that would tell us how big an increase in food bank use will result from a 23% increase in the carbon tax?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1640)[English]We don't have impacts, necessarily, on what happens with food banks. We have the Bank of Canada, which said that the impact of the carbon pricing on inflation was actually very, very small. Inflation is due to other factors that actually are way more significant than the carbon pricing.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1640)[English]Why does Environment and Climate Change Canada not track something like that? One has to understand that environmental policies don't impact only the environment; they impact the cost of living and Canadians' day-to-day lives. Why would food bank use be a metric that your department would not keep track of?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1640)[English] We do work with other departments. The numbers the minister showed previously, for example, were from Finance. We work with Finance. We work with ESDC. We work with other departments. They analyze the impacts of all measures. When we go to cabinet, this information circulates among departments, and everybody has a chance to get in and talk about the impacts.That's one of the reasons the carbon pricing has been managed the way it has. If you look at the rebate, it is higher for 80% of the families who are paying. The way it's framed is to make sure that the ones who are impacted by affordability are the ones receiving more in terms of their return, and the ones who can pay are the ones who are paying. The redistribution that came with carbon pricing was precisely to limit any impact it would have on the poor population—most of them don't drive cars, to be honest.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1645)[English]Let me put it this way: When the carbon tax goes up 23% in a couple of weeks, how many more Canadians will become food insecure and how many more Canadians will have to turn to food banks?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1645)[English]When the carbon pricing increases, 80% of people who receive more money than they pay through the tax will receive even more money. If you look at the numbers the minister presented, they increased compared to last year. Money doesn't stay in the government's pocket; it's sent back.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1645)[English]You're guessing that the carbon tax increase on April 1 will result in fewer people going to food bank. Is that—Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1645)[English]I don't do that. That's not the work I do. What I'm saying is that from a purely mathematical perspective, the money that comes from carbon pricing is going back to Canadians. It's going back to a redistribution that makes sure that people who are in worse conditions get more, people who are in rural areas get more and people who are in first nation, Inuit and Métis communities get more too.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1645)[English]Okay, but you are aware that the rebates are going to be less than the actual cost when one considers the direct and indirect costs of the carbon tax.Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1645)[English]The minister told you about the numbers from the.... I beg to disagree with the PBO on this. What can I tell you? As I said, I don't disagree with the Bank of Canada, which says carbon pricing has a very limited impact—I think it was 0.2% or 0.3%—on inflation.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1645)[English]Earlier, we heard that the minister disagreed with the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Do you also disagree with the Parliamentary Budget Officer?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1645)[English]We have a methodological issue with him. With the way he calculated it, if he doesn't take that into account.... I trust he is using the right numbers, but we would take into account the cost of climate change. It's the same thing when he doesn't take into account the investments from businesses to green their businesses or invest in clean energy, which also creates jobs and creates growth in the economy. There are multiple factors at play. We cannot just select one and not the others.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1645)[English]To summarize, if I heard you correctly, Environment and Climate Change Canada has methodological issues with the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Is that what I understood?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1645)[English]Let's say we would take that into account, because we are the Department of the Environment and we think the costs.... I've been the deputy minister of other departments and managed emergency issues. The costs of managing emergency issues have increased significantly in departments—MichaelKramRegina—WascanaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]I think the point has been made on both sides.Jean-FrançoisTremblayLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1645)[English]On a point of order, or a point of clarification, I heard the official mention that “most of them don't drive cars”. I wonder if he can follow up in writing with—FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1645)[English]We can. We actually published our difference with the PBO at the time, so we can share it with the committee. As the minister said, it's not something new. It's something that's been said before, but we would be more than happy to share that.LaurelCollinsVictoriaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Okay.We'll go to Mr. van Koeverden for six minutes, please.Jean-FrançoisTremblayAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden: (1645)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.As I was listening to the previous question, I was reflecting on the meetings that I've had and hosted with organizations like Feed Opportunity and the Maple Leaf Centre for Food Security. I've always been really honest about growing up in community housing and wanting to get involved in government to eliminate poverty. I actually think that poverty is an option, a policy choice that successive governments have made.When I hear the Conservatives talking about food banks, as they do often—which is fair, because food banks are experiencing higher than ever volumes right now—I do take issue with how they frame that line of questioning. The reason I take issue with it is that when I meet with the Maple Leaf Centre for Food Security or other poverty elimination organizations, none of them make any recommendations with respect to carbon pricing. If that's different from the testimony that has been received from the Regina Food Bank by my colleague Michael Kram, then I'd like to chat about it. I'd like to hear about the testimony and the evidence that's coming from poverty reduction experts in Saskatchewan, because perhaps they're different from the poverty reduction experts I talk to in Ontario. My dad used to live in Regina. I used to visit often. The national championships for the sport that I love have been hosted on Wascana Lake many times, and I've spent a lot of time there. I love Regina; it's a great city. I gave the Regina Food Bank a follow on Twitter just now to see who else they follow. Indeed they follow Feed Opportunity and the Maple Leaf Centre for Food Security, and I thought it would be pertinent to bring up some of the recommendations that they've made. They made a budget letter submission, as a lot of these poverty elimination organizations do, such as the Daily Bread Food Bank and the Maple Leaf Centre for Food Security. All of these organizations make regular submissions to the federal government and ask us to consider different policy choices. Not one food bank or poverty elimination organization that I have ever talked to—and I meet with them frequently—has ever recommended eliminating the price on pollution.Last week I was on a program with Andrew Scheer, who was here earlier, and I brought up a gentleman named Peter Gilmer. To my colleague from Saskatchewan, we have a couple of weeks at home in April, and I would implore you to look up Peter Gilmer. He lives in Regina. Peter Gilmer is a poverty reduction expert from your city. Perhaps you already know about him. Peter Gilmer has said that an elimination of the carbon price in Saskatchewan would actually have devastating impacts on the lowest-earning individuals in Regina. It's quoted. He works in poverty elimination. None of the organizations that I've met with have suggested or cited that the carbon price is a leading cause of food inflation or that eliminating the price on pollution would help lower-income families. I want that to be on the record. I also want to thank the officials for joining today. I want to provide Mr. Tremblay with the opportunity to elaborate a little bit more on the work they've done to ensure that the Canada carbon rebate that goes out to Canadians on the price on pollution accounts for the expense that the carbon price costs them, particularly the lowest quintile of earners in Canada.The price on carbon has been widely regarded as a good tool and an effective mechanism for lowering our emissions. A gentleman named William Nordhaus won a Nobel Prize in proving that carbon pricing is the cheapest and most effective way to lower our emissions.Our emissions are coming down, and they have been since 2015. That's good news for Canada. I know that the Conservatives ran their election under the failed leadership aspirations of Andrew Scheer with a plan to increase emissions. He said it again yesterday on television. He said that Canada should be allowed to increase its emissions, which is absurd. It is not our goal, and it is not what Canadians voted for in 2015, 2019 or 2021. Canadians strongly believe that we should be leaders on fighting climate change and lowering our emissions. I don't know how those failed aspirations of the former leader of the Conservative Party found their way back into the contemporary political debate, but they're here; like a zombie; they won't die. Mr. Tremblay, let's have some words from you on how we've ensured that the price on pollution does not have a negative impact on food costs or the lowest-earning Canadians.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1650)[English]I will turn to John, who has been our specialist on this for years.Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet (Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment): (1650)[English] Thanks.I have just a couple of facts, off the top. As our deputy minister mentioned, there are two important numbers that are relevant to this discussion, and they have been released by the Bank of Canada and various economists. The Bank of Canada, just last year, said that the carbon price contributes less than 0.15% to inflation each year. Policy Options, which is, as you all know, an unaligned think tank, just this year published a report saying that, at most, the carbon price contributes a 0.33% increase to grocery prices. We know that the impact is negligible.To your question of why that is the case—Jean-FrançoisTremblayFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Unfortunately, Mr. Moffet—I hate to interrupt you—we're past six minutes. I think you made your point.We'll go now to Madam Pauzé for six minutes. She of course can continue on that line of questioning if she wants.JohnMoffetMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1655)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Moffet, I want to go back to my earlier question, but first I have a question for the representative from the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada—I asked the minister the same type of question earlier. In the relatively recent history of the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada, have you ever conducted regional assessments in certain parts of the country?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisTerenceHubbardTerenceHubbardTerence-HubbardInterventionMr. Terence Hubbard (President, Impact Assessment Agency of Canada): (1655)[Translation]We are conducting regional assessments right now. There are two assessments ongoing regarding offshore renewable energy development, one in Nova Scotia and the other in Newfoundland and Labrador.MoniquePauzéRepentignyMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1655)[Translation]What criteria have to be met for you to decide to conduct a regional impact assessment?TerenceHubbardTerenceHubbardTerenceHubbardTerence-HubbardInterventionMr. Terence Hubbard: (1655)[Translation]The essential criterion is support for assessments of future projects. We have to make sure that there will be projects in the future that could have a federal impact. Before those projects are developed, we have to assess their potential impact. MoniquePauzéRepentignyMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1655)[Translation]I would like you to provide the committee with a written explanation of the various locations where regional assessments will be conducted.Mr. Moffet, I would like to return to the famous Canadian Environmental Protection Act, which was passed and has received royal assent. I am very interested in the toxic substances management policy. Since our study pertains to water, there are links with the management of toxic substances.Further to the amendment of the act, the following statement appears on the Government of Canada website: … the Minister of Health will be responsible for fulfilling the risk management obligation under CEPA where the Minister of Health will be leading the development and implementation of the new risk management instruments in relation to substances that pose health concerns … As you can see, we are not working in isolation. The ministers of health and the environment work together. They have regulatory powers.Since royal assent, what progress has been made with regard to the management of toxic substances? TerenceHubbardJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1655)[Translation]I will answer your question in English, Ms. Pauzé.[English]The federal government has been involved in the assessment and management of toxic substances for over 30 years. In the last 15 years, the government has become a little more coordinated and centralized through the development of what we'd call the chemicals management plan. As you correctly mentioned, the bill that was recently passed, Bill S-5, requires the government to essentially renew that plan by developing a new plan of priorities. The law requires the minister to come forward with that plan in two years.We have started consultation broadly with the public and with indigenous communities on what that plan should contain. We will continue those public discussions. Then we will release, as we usually do, a draft, and then a final report. That work is well under way.S-5, An Act to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999, to make related amendments to the Food and Drugs Act and to repeal the Perfluorooctane Sulfonate Virtual Elimination ActMoniquePauzéRepentignyMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1655)[Translation]Thank you for your answer.I will now turn to the officials from the Parks Canada Agency.Hello.Natural Resources Canada is responsible for the famous program to plant 2 billion trees, and the Agency has requested $37 million for the fund to fight forest fires.Can you tell me how many Parks Canada forests were decimated by forest fires in 2023?I am asking because, when trees are replanted, we must avoid past errors that led to the forest fires spreading so quickly. The trees that are planted must be diversified.JohnMoffetDarleneUptonDarleneUptonDarlene-UptonInterventionMs. Darlene Upton (Vice-President, Protected Areas Establishment and Conservation, Parks Canada Agency): (1700)[Translation]Last year was very different for us because the fires burned nine times the number of forests in our parks. That requires a lot of work from the agency and a lot of coordination with our provincial and territorial partners. Further, we have a monitoring program to measure the effects of the fires and a process for determining the best way to restore those forests. In some cases, it is better to wait because nature will do the job itself, while in other cases we can use more specific processes, such—MoniquePauzéRepentignyFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[Translation]Thank you. I gave you a bit more time, but we have to stop here.Ms. Collins, you have the floor.DarleneUptonLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1700)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank all of the officials for coming today and sharing their expertise and knowledge.One of the questions I wanted to ask the minister but didn't get a chance to ask was around forestry emissions. Many experts, including the environment commissioner, have noted that emissions in the forestry industry are wildly under-reported. They estimate the government is under-reporting emissions by 100 megatonnes. When are we going to see a review of these forestry emissions?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1700)[English]John can go into this with the details, but the way we account for this, as you know, is being reviewed internationally on a regular basis and by peers in Canada. There has been a review process, and we should get new numbers quite soon, if I remember it well. LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1700)[English]Do you have any comments on the discrepancy? That's a huge number. Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1700)[English]It's more of an accounting issue. I think John can go into this. It's a different methodology, but the methodology we use is recognized internationally. It's been recognized by United Nations organizations and by experts. It's just a different way, but we're not.... I don't know if John wants to handle this.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1700)[English]The environment commissioner has noted this discrepancy, and experts are saying we don't have integrity in our accounting and that we're missing 100 megatonnes. That's huge. Jean-FrançoisTremblayJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1700)[English]As the deputy explained, there are methodological issues and choices need to be made. I don't think it's fair to say that our system lacks integrity. There are definitely judgments that have to be made in the way that we estimate emissions. The goal is to estimate anthropogenic emissions only. To do that requires modelling a forest with no human impact, which of course requires—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1700)[English]Can we expect any changes?JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1700)[English]Any changes we make will be changes that are guided by evolution in international norms.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1700)[English]Thanks. I want to give you a quick opportunity to.... Maybe this is a question for Mr. Tremblay as well. We've heard about the cost of the carbon pricing system, but there is a huge cost to climate change. When we are comparing the impact of crop failures, droughts and extreme flooding on grocery store prices and folks who are struggling to pay for their food, do we have numbers on what the impact of the carbon pricing system is for Canadians?JohnMoffetJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1700)[English] Just to give you a sense, when we were looking at the costs more than a decade ago, on an annual basis, the cost in insured goods or assets per year after catastrophes and environmental disasters was an average of close to $500 million. We're more in the $2-billion range now, so when the minister uses the $2-billion figure, that's where it's from.When you look at what happened with the fires, I think we need to include in this that there's a cost in life when there are events like that. When the air is not good, as you mentioned before, it has a significant impact on the population—LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1705)[English]There are 15,000 preventable deaths every year. Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1705)[English]Exactly, so there's a significant number there, and there are also, of course, other consequences, such as people losing days of work and productivity in businesses going down during those times. It is a serious number that varies a lot, but I would say that over the last few years it's been skyrocketing, if I could say that.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1705)[English]Could you follow up to the committee with the same kind of analysis that Mr. Moffet provided with the 0.33% figure? Could you find a similar number?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1705)[English]I'm sure there's a list of recent events and the costs for each of them, including on lives. We can send that to you.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1705)[English]If there is a larger look at one year or something along those lines, that would be helpful as well.Jean-FrançoisTremblayJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1705)[English]Could I just add that this is the methodological disagreement that we have with the Parliamentary Budget Officer? The Parliamentary Budget Officer's estimate of the GDP impacts did not compare the GDP impacts of carbon pricing to an economy facing climate change without the carbon price. It compared the impact of carbon pricing on the economy to an economy with no carbon price and no climate change, so it was an unreal comparison.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1705)[English]Given the report showing that there's going to be a $25-billion slowdown in our economy because of the climate crisis, clearly this needs to be accounted for.How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?JohnMoffetFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]You have 45 seconds.LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1705)[English]I know that there's other business, so I'll cede my time. FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]Okay.We'll now go to the parties in the second round. Mr. Leslie, you have five minutes. LaurelCollinsVictoriaBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie (Portage—Lisgar, CPC): (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Based on the responses to my colleague Mr. Kram's questions regarding the economic analysis and consideration of the impacts of the carbon tax, is it fair to assume that despite being the department that designed and implemented the program, the tax—because you're the Department of Environment—there's nobody here who can answer the question as to what the expected or anticipated costs of hiking up the level of the carbon tax actually will amount to? Is that fair? Am I correct that nobody here can answer how much that costs and how much the carbon tax is costing in terms of food costs? FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1705)[English]I think we told you that there was a very limited impact of the carbon pricing on any inflation in this country. It's a negligible factor—BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1705)[English]It is a major program that costs billions of dollars—Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1705)[English]It doesn't cost billions of dollars—BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1705)[English]You mentioned that cabinet has access to a number of other departments in looking at information. Did any other departments...? I can think of agriculture, finance and perhaps trade looking at the competitiveness issue as it relates to our having a carbon tax versus our American counterpart or any other countries.Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1705)[English]It happens regularly between departments—BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1705)[English]Has there been an analysis of any of that?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1705)[English]John, would you comment? BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1705)[English]Yes.Jean-FrançoisTremblayBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1705)[English]Could you share it with us?JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1705)[English]Yes. We have plenty of analysis on trade impacts, competitiveness impacts, affordability impacts. BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1705)[English]You can submit all of that to the committee. JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1705)[English]Yes.BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1705)[English]Okay. I will look forward to that.Have you guys done outward looking as we get to $170 a tonne by 2030? Have there been analyses done further out that you could also share with our committee? What are the anticipated cost increases of food prices when $170 a tonne is the carbon tax per tonne?JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1705)[English]I don't know, and I don't know that we have that analysis.BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1705)[English]Do any other departments? JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1705)[English]We'll have to look. BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1705)[English]If you could check, please submit anything to this committee that has been done as an analysis for when it reaches $170, and hopefully, on a year-by-year basis, what the impacts are in terms of food prices and any other analysis that has been done. That would be appreciated.Switching lanes a bit here to the plastics ban being ruled unreasonable and unconstitutional, are you aware of some of the other impacts as they relate to the outcomes of that ban, particularly the implementation or use of paper straws or other plant-based straws, or in particular a study published in the journal Food Additives and Contaminants that examined more than 20 brands of plant-based straws—JohnMoffetAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden: (1705)[English] I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]I'm sorry, but we have a point of order. Wait a moment, Mr. Leslie.Go ahead.Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden: (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Is the plastics ban pertinent to supplementary estimates (C)?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]I don't know if it has an impact on legal costs the department might have to assume. Maybe we can get to the bottom of that.Go ahead, Mr. Leslie.Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1710)[English]I appreciate it. That was exactly where I was going, Mr. Chair.Are you aware of the study that indicates that in fact, as a witness in our water study said, PFAS are a major problem? Many of these alternative straws have a high level of PFAS and therefore contaminate our environment.Have you guys looked at any other alternatives so that when you make a decision such as a policy on straws or banning other things, as we have the upcoming plastics summit, has there been an analysis done from an economic standpoint of the alternatives, such as for plastic bags versus the types of polymers used in other bags? Has that been done, and can you share it with our committee?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1710)[English]When we published the ban on single-use plastics, we also published, as we do with every regulation, a regulatory impact assessment statement, which included a review of the economic costs of replacing single-use plastics, including plastic straws.Potentially regrettable substitutions, like a straw that includes PFAS, is a regular issue we address. When we take action on one substance, we try to ensure we're also looking at potential alternatives. The government has an equally comprehensive agenda on managing the use of and risks from PFAS, for example.BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarBrandenLesliePortage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/108395BrandenLeslieBranden-LesliePortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeslieBranden_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Branden Leslie: (1710)[English]I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to share anything with our committee, beyond the gazetted information.I'd like to cede the remainder of my time to Mr. Mazier.JohnMoffetDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1710)[English]Mr. Chair, I'd like to move the motion that I gave notice of on Friday.An hon. member: I'll speak to that motion, Mr. Chair.Mr. Dan Mazier: Conservatives are demanding that the Liberal government release their carbon tax analysis. It's unfair to force Canadians to pay a carbon tax without revealing direct results.Thank you.BrandenLesliePortage—LisgarFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]I have Mr. van Koeverden and Ms. Collins.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1710)[English]It's a simple motion to do a study.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Do you want to debate this now?DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1710)[English]It's up for debate.No, I just want it passed. Let's go. FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden: (1710)[English]I appreciate the motion by my honourable colleague, and we'll review it, but out of respect for our witnesses, I think we can adjourn debate now and resume debate when we have committee business.Thank you, Mr. Mazier.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]It's a non-debatable motion. We have to vote on it.Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonAdamvan KoeverdenMilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105242Adamvan KoeverdenAdam-vanKoeverdenMiltonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/vanKoeverdenAdam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Adam van Koeverden: (1710)[English]You can ask if we have unanimous consent.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Do we have unanimous consent?Adamvan KoeverdenMiltonDanMazierDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/3306DanMazierDan-MazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MazierDan_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dan Mazier: (1710)[English]We want it passed. No. We need this study done.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Okay, we don't have unanimous consent. We'll call the vote to adjourn debate on the motion.(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5) The Chair: We'll go to Mr. Ali for five minutes.DanMazierDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaShafqatAliBrampton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali (Brampton Centre, Lib.): (1710)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.I have a question, and anyone can answer it. Earlier this week, the leader of the official opposition stated that he did not believe pollution pricing should apply to industry. What would the impact be on Canada's emissions if pollution pricing was not in place for industry?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1710)[English]I will start by repeating the analysis that we've shared publicly. We estimate that of the total emissions reductions that will be achieved economy-wide by 2030, approximately one-third will be attributable to the carbon price. If we were to remove the carbon price from the economy, we would either achieve far fewer emissions reductions or we would have to replace the carbon price with another set of measures that, in order to achieve the same reductions, would inevitably cost the economy far more.ShafqatAliBrampton CentreShafqatAliBrampton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali: (1715)[English] Thank you.I have a few questions for the officials who are here from Parks Canada.Parks Canada is seeking over $37 million in operating expenditures, grants and contributions for “Funding for wildfire response requirements”. Please describe the wildfire response that this funding covers.Are Parks Canada employees responding to wildfires themselves, or is Parks Canada funding other groups to respond?JohnMoffetRonHallmanRonHallmanRon-HallmanInterventionMr. Ron Hallman (President and Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency): (1715)[English] Chair, Parks Canada is the only federal firefighting force in Canada. We work on lands that we administer, and we work in collaboration with provincial and territorial firefighters at the provincial level and internationally. We have more than 300 firefighters engaged in a number of different practices, including incident command, direct fire line operations and support.The funds that are contemplated—the $37 million-plus in the supplementary estimates—partially offset the $90 million or so that Parks Canada expended on behalf of Canadians in managing wildfire preparedness and firefighting last year. We engage in activities to prevent wildfire through “FireSmart” programs and through prescribed burn. We do that ourselves through planning with communities and with indigenous partners to make sure that we're using knowledge and our science knowledge.Darlene Upton is here to speak in greater detail about the firefighting program if there are more questions. Aside from the financial cost, I would really like to draw the committee's attention to some of the human costs of these fires—not only for the communities and the indigenous partners and their families, who are on the land and experience the horrors of these fires, but for our employees. Many of them live in these communities and had to say goodbye to their families when they were evacuated. They stayed behind to help. In 2023, most of our fire team members were away from home for four to seven shifts, from 70 to 98 days—ShafqatAliBrampton CentreFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Excuse me, Mr.—RonHallmanRonHallmanRonHallmanRon-HallmanInterventionMr. Ron Hallman: (1715)[English]—which is more than double what normally happens.I'm sorry, Chair.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Mr. Ali wanted to give some time to Ms. May.RonHallmanShafqatAliBrampton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali: (1715)[English]I'm sorry.If you could submit that, it would be great. I wanted to give the rest of the time to Ms. May.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]You have about 30 seconds, so it's not very much, but go ahead. Give it a shot.ShafqatAliBrampton CentreElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/2897ElizabethMayElizabeth-MaySaanich—Gulf IslandsGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MayElizabeth_GP.jpgInterventionMs. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP): (1715)[English]I understand I have 30 seconds, Mr. Chair.The question I'd like to pursue.... I may get more time from Madame Pauzé, I hope. The question is related to the Supreme Court of Canada reference case. It's clear from this reference case that the entirety of the unconstitutionality within the impact assessment regime stems from changes made under the Harper regime in the so-called CEAA 2012. What I want to know is this: Is the department examining using the recommendations from the expert panel in order to remedy the illegalities that crept in in 2012? FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Answer fairly briefly, if you can. I know it's a comprehensive question.ElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf IslandsTerenceHubbardTerenceHubbardTerence-HubbardInterventionMr. Terence Hubbard: (1715)[English]Thank you for the question.We're looking very closely at the recommendations from the Supreme Court of Canada. As ministers have noted, we will be advancing—FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/2897ElizabethMayElizabeth-MaySaanich—Gulf IslandsGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MayElizabeth_GP.jpgInterventionMs. Elizabeth May: (1715)[English]With all due respect, I don't have much time. That wasn't my question. My question was whether you are looking at the expert panel chaired by the former chair of BAPE, Johanne Gélinas. Are you looking at those recommendations to fix the errors that crept in in 2012?TerenceHubbardTerenceHubbardTerenceHubbardTerence-HubbardInterventionMr. Terence Hubbard: (1715)[English]The focus is primarily on responding directly to the recommendations and advice put forward by the Supreme Court.ElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf IslandsFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]We'll go now to Madame Pauzé.TerenceHubbardMoniquePauzéRepentigny//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88595MoniquePauzéMonique-PauzéRepentignyBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PauzéMonique_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Monique Pauzé: (1715)[Translation]I will give all my time to Ms. May, Mr. Chair.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[Translation]Okay.[English]Go ahead, Ms. May. You have two and a half minutes more.MoniquePauzéRepentignyElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/2897ElizabethMayElizabeth-MaySaanich—Gulf IslandsGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MayElizabeth_GP.jpgInterventionMs. Elizabeth May: (1715)[English]Thank you so much, Madame Pauzé.I hated to cut you off like that Mr. Hubbard, but the reality is that the expert panel report would, if enacted even now in remedying the environmental impact assessment regime, provide a full, comprehensive, legal and constitutional response that would remedy all of the defects identified in the reference case. Given the time I have, I can't go through my annotated copy of the Supreme Court decision. What I'm asking is if Environment Canada, the Impact Assessment Agency and the Department of Justice will consider using Madame Gélinas' report now to completely repair the environmental assessment regime.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisTerenceHubbardTerenceHubbardTerence-HubbardInterventionMr. Terence Hubbard: (1720)[English] The report and recommendations of the expert panel and Madame Gélinas were leveraged and utilized to support the development of the Impact Assessment Act. At this point in time, we are reviewing very closely the recommendations from the Supreme Court and we will be responding directly to the areas in which the Supreme Court identified shortcomings. ElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf IslandsElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/2897ElizabethMayElizabeth-MaySaanich—Gulf IslandsGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MayElizabeth_GP.jpgInterventionMs. Elizabeth May: (1720)[English]With all due respect, Mr. Hubbard, the expert panel report was completely ignored by the agency and by the minister. Had those recommendations been accepted, we would be back in the four corners of federal jurisdiction from 1975. We've been paying a lot of tributes to the Right Honourable Brian Mulroney, and certainly when the Mulroney government passed the environmental impact assessment regime, it was completely constitutional. If we had returned to the advice of the expert panel—and we still could—then we would have a completely constitutional regime that would also deal comprehensively with federal projects, whereas currently a great number of them are no longer reviewed at all. I mention, just for the committee's benefit, paragraph 242 of the referenced case, which pointed out that in the past, thousands of federal projects were reviewed every year, but that after the passage of the omnibus budget bill, Bill C-38, in 2012, that number dropped to 70 a year. In other words, the government was doing less while being found by the Supreme Court to be conducting itself in a way that was ultra vires.I don't accept at all your evidence, Mr. Hubbard, that the department used or leveraged the report of Madame Gélinas, and I would urge you to consider it now. C-38, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measuresTerenceHubbardFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]We have to go now to Ms. Collins. Ms. Collins, do you cede your time? No?ElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf IslandsLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1720)[English]Thank you.I want to follow up on the question around costing the climate crisis. I am curious. Right now with the modelling you do, you mentioned disaster by disaster, but are you doing yearly reports on the cost of the climate crisis in total? Is that something your department is tracking?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1720)[English]The Canadian Climate Institute actually did release a report on this, so you may want to look at it. Their assessment, if I remember well, was that by 2025 the cost per year would be around $20 billion to $25 billion, which is more than $600 per capita in the country. Those are numbers that are out there and that have been developed by people.I don't think we have a report in Environment Canada that actually tackled this, but there are reports out there that are doing it. LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1720)[English]The minister talked a little bit about at-risk whales and some of the numbers in terms of how we're protecting land, air and water. Can we get an update specifically on land? I heard 14% or 15%. When the minister says that we are actually on track to meet those targets, what are the next steps the department will be taking in order to ensure that we'll meet those targets by 2030?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1720)[English]We have different projects. There's been an increase of 32% over the last years in terms of protection of lands. That's why we are now at 13.7%, if I remember well. We continue to work with groups. We continue to work with indigenous people. We also develop agreements, province by province, as you may have seen. We have tripartite agreements with B.C., including with first nations groups. The objective is to look at areas where we can increase and actually protect more biodiversity across the country at the same time that we are conserving lands. That's the process we're in. We're also advancing the PFPs with indigenous peoples. We're working on four of them. They received $800 million. The minister referred to one of them—I'm sorry. Go ahead. LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1720)[English]Chair, how much time do I have?Jean-FrançoisTremblayFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]You have 10 to 15 seconds. You have time for a statement. LaurelCollinsVictoriaLaurelCollinsVictoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105908LaurelCollinsLaurel-CollinsVictoriaNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CollinsLaurel_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Laurel Collins: (1725)[English]Please finish your thoughts. FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1725)[English]I was just saying that we are also working with indigenous leaders on the PFPs. The minister mentioned the one million square kilometres in the north. Those are projects on which we work with provinces, territories, indigenous groups and the private sector or foundations. LaurelCollinsVictoriaFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Thank you.We'll go to Mr. Kram for five minutes. Jean-FrançoisTremblayMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1725)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. With the time I have left, I would like to give notice of the following motion: Given that the provinces of: Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Ontario, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, have formally asked Justin Trudeau to cancel the Liberal government's plan to increase the carbon tax by 23% on April 1, 2024; pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee invite all seven premiers to testify on their request to the federal government, within one week of the motion being adopted. I'm just tabling the motion at this time, Mr. Chair. FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English] You're not moving it.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1725)[English]I'm not moving it at this time.FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Since you're just tabling it, you can go ahead with your questions.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1725)[English]Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to follow up with Mr. Moffet on an answer he gave a while ago about the methodological differences between Environment and Climate Change Canada and the Parliamentary Budget Officer.Mr. Moffet, if I understood you correctly, your department has a model that links the carbon tax to the effect of Canada's CO2 emissions on the change in global temperatures, and the change in global temperatures to Canada's GDP. Did I understand that correctly?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1725)[English]I don't think our model draws a straight line between global temperatures and our GDP. It is an economy-wide, computable general equilibrium model that can estimate the GDP impacts of various issues, including climate change or any new measure, such as the carbon price, regulation X or program Y.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1725)[English]Does the model take into consideration the annual increases in the carbon tax and figure out what effect that would have on extreme weather events or the change in temperatures? How would you have a positive effect on the economy with the carbon tax?JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1725)[English]For every measure we've introduced, we've had to provide Canadians with modelling about the estimated impacts, including, in particular, two impacts. One of these is this: Will the measure contribute to the reduction of emissions? The answer, as we've stated repeatedly, is that carbon pricing has and will continue to reduce emissions, which will have the effect of reducing increases in the adverse effects of climate change.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1725)[English]Is an adverse effect of climate change global warming?JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1725)[English]Yes.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1725)[English]Okay. Can your model figure out what effect the change in Canada's CO2 emissions will have on the overall warming of the planet?JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1725)[English]Yes. We shared this analysis globally. There is a fairly well-established methodology for estimating the incremental impact of a tonne of greenhouse gas emissions—regardless of where it comes from—on the overall climate and progression of climate change, in terms of whether it will get worse or better.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1725)[English]What effects will next month's carbon tax increase have on the temperature of the planet? Surely it must be so tiny you can't even measure it.JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1725)[English]No, and that's not what I said we could do.What we have done is provide information—we'll table it with this committee—about the expected impact of our collective set of measures on Canadian emissions and the expected effect of our collective set of measures on GDP in Canada. That will be, importantly, relative to impacts on GDP in the absence of having taken action on climate change.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1730)[English]Okay. I look forward to the tabling of your modelling.Has the modelling been peer reviewed?JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1730)[English]Yes, it has, repeatedly.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1730)[English]Okay.I believe that's my time, Mr. Chair.JohnMoffetFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[English]Okay.We'll go to Ms. Taylor Roy for the last series of questions.MichaelKramRegina—WascanaLeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105024LeahTaylor RoyLeah-TaylorRoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TaylorRoyLeah_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Taylor Roy: (1730)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I want to follow up on the modelling and the estimation. We repeatedly hear estimates from the opposition about what programs like the price on pollution or the change in the single-use plastics will cost, but they don't anticipate any change in behaviour due to these programs.How do you model for that or anticipate how people's behaviour might change due to these programs, since that is the point of the programs in the first place? Is it fair to just put a straight-line projection out, saying nothing will change and that the cost will be X?FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1730)[English] There's a significant amount of literature on the impact of pricing on people's behaviour, and that's one of the reasons that the government selected this option. It has been documented, so there's no doubt about that. We also continue to track the results, but it's not just about carbon pricing; it's about other measures that we need to take into account.It's also sometimes that people look at the.... That was the point that John was trying to make too, which is that the status quo is not cost neutral. That's a point that was in some analyses in Europe, and it's important.That status quo costs money, and it is going to cost more money for Canadians and for the globe in general. We saw it last year. We're more exposed to that—I don't think anybody here denies it—so when we look at those elements, we also need to think about the risk of not taking any action versus the risk of taking some action.When we take those actions, we try to minimize any negative impacts on the population. That's why, as we mentioned before, the government decided to frame the carbon pricing in this way, to make sure that there is a strong redistribution and that the redistribution will go to those who need it the most.That's the way it is. The models are models, in the end. We need to check them against reality, and that's what we're doing on an annual basis to see if they translate into facts.Yes, it's going in the right direction, but of course, as some of you mentioned, there's still work to be done for sure.LeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105024LeahTaylor RoyLeah-TaylorRoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TaylorRoyLeah_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Taylor Roy: (1730)[English]I have one more quick question before I pass it to my colleague.The estimated impact of doing nothing is something we hear about a lot, and we know from a lot of the reports by the Parliamentary Budget Officer and others that it's not ever incorporated in terms of the trade-offs between having a program and not having a program.Do you have any kind of estimates of what these dramatic climate events cost Canadians? Can we, in any way, distribute that across the population to say that just the extreme climate events are already costing us up to $200 billion, or whatever?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1730)[English]As I said, the Canadian Climate Institute has numbers that are around $25 billion annually on the GDP. That's quite a serious number. Is it the best calculation? I will not pretend that I'm the expert at the moment to say that, but it is a cost that has been documented by many people, and we've seen it. We've seen it in all departments in terms of costs to address emergencies.Parks Canada sees it, and that's just one element. Others will see it too. I was deputy minister at Indigenous Services, and the numbers for evacuations and emergencies were getting very high, so that's—LeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105024LeahTaylor RoyLeah-TaylorRoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TaylorRoyLeah_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Leah Taylor Roy: (1730)[English]Thank you.I want to leave time for my colleague Sophie Chatel.Jean-FrançoisTremblaySophieChatelPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110225SophieChatelSophie-ChatelPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChatelSophie_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Sophie Chatel: (1730)[English]I have a quick question. If we do not have carbon pricing just as Europe, the U.S., California and the G20 are moving to implement it, the large economies will impose a carbon pricing adjustment.Will we be able to export to Europe if we don't have a carbon pricing system?LeahTaylor RoyAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1730)[English]It's hard for me to talk about hypothetical questions, so I would not go too far on this, but it is a legitimate question about how we make sure that we align with some of the big economies in the world.The other elements that I would add to this—SophieChatelPontiacSophieChatelPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110225SophieChatelSophie-ChatelPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChatelSophie_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Sophie Chatel: (1735)[English]Europe has a carbon pricing adjustment on sectors such as cement. Today, would a company in Canada be able to export products to Europe when they're listed on the carbon pricing adjustment?Jean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-FrançoisTremblayJean-François-TremblayInterventionMr. Jean-François Tremblay: (1735)[English]It's not in force at this stage.SophieChatelPontiacJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1735)[English]It's not yet in force, but it's coming into force.The results of the CBAM in Europe would not be to ban Canadian cement, but to impose a surcharge on Canadian cement.Jean-FrançoisTremblaySophieChatelPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110225SophieChatelSophie-ChatelPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChatelSophie_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Sophie Chatel: (1735)[English]Is it better to collect the surcharge here in Canada through carbon pricing or to pay it to Europe as a carbon tariff?JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1735)[English]I'll leave that to you to decide, but—SophieChatelPontiacSophieChatelPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110225SophieChatelSophie-ChatelPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChatelSophie_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Sophie Chatel: (1735)[English]I think you answered that. Thank you.JohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohnMoffetJohn-MoffetInterventionMr. John Moffet: (1735)[English]—I can tell you that as a result of having a carbon price, we have had successful negotiations with Europe to recognize the price that Canadian producers of cement, steel and aluminum pay. Therefore, although final decisions haven't been made, all signals are that they won't be subject to the CBAM.SophieChatelPontiacFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1735)[English] We'll end on that note.It was a very interesting discussion, as it always is when we have the experts from the department with us, so I thank you for your time. I thank the members for their questions, which were at times incisive but always interesting.We'll stop here. We'll see all the members of the committee on Thursday.The meeting is adjourned.JohnMoffet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)): (1625)[English] Welcome back, members.Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on February 8, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of plans to prevent violence during the 2024 elver fishing season.On our first panel today, we have a number of witnesses on Zoom and others here in person.On Zoom, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Darren Campbell, chief superintendent, criminal operations officer, New Brunswick; and Sue Black, chief superintendent, criminal operations officer, Nova Scotia.From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have, in our committee room today, Dominic Mallette, regional director general, Atlantic region; and Cathy Toxopeus, director general, commercial programs.I apologize for butchering anybody's name, but I'm from Newfoundland and I'm not well versed in a lot of these names, so please be patient.From the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, we have Kevin Urbanic, director general, Ontario operations; and Parthi Muthukumarasamy, executive director, international programs directorate.We'll now go to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency for an opening statement of five minutes or less. ParthiMuthukumarasamyParthiMuthukumarasamyParthi-MuthukumarasamyInterventionDr. Parthi Muthukumarasamy (Executive Director, International Programs Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency): (1630)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon.I appreciate the opportunity to speak to the committee members today on this important topic.My name is Dr. Parthi Muthukumarasamy, and I work as executive director for international programs at the CFIA. I am accompanied by Kevin Urbanic, director general for Ontario operations.Today, I will provide an overview of the CFIA’s role in the export and import of juvenile American eels, also known as baby eels or elvers.Elvers are generally not exported for direct human consumption as food. Instead, elvers are exported to be grown on aquaculture farms in the importing country until they develop into adults and are then harvested to be used as food.The CFIA regulates the export and import of live animals, including aquatic animals, under the Health of Animals Act and regulations. The export and import requirements for the trade of live animals, including aquatic animals, are primarily in place to prevent the introduction of animal diseases and diseases that could be transmitted from animals to humans.In general, in order to provide assurances that the exported live animals, or animal products, meet an importing country’s requirements related to animal and human health, an official export certificate endorsed by the CFIA is required for clearing the shipment in the importing country. These export certificates are issued by the CFIA only when required by the importing country, and when the conditions for exports included in the certificate are established between the CFIA and the importing country. Most countries do not require an export certification from the CFIA for the export of American elvers intended for aquaculture. Thus, the CFIA does not have an oversight for elvers exported to these countries that do not require an export certificate.We note from earlier meetings of this committee that some members are interested in elver exports to China. Currently, China requires an export certificate from Canada for the export of elvers for aquaculture purposes. This certificate for the export of elvers was last issued in 2017 and has not been issued since then.In the case of Hong Kong, it does not require an export certificate for the export of elvers from Canada unless the elvers are intended for re-export from Hong Kong to China. The last time CFIA issued an export certificate for the export of elvers to Hong Kong was June 2019.From the import perspective, and the import of American eels or elvers into Canada, the CFIA currently does not require an aquatic animal health import permit or export certificate, as American eels are not known to be susceptible to any of the CFIA-regulated diseases.The CFIA continues to work with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on the export and import of elvers as it relates to animal and public health.Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are pleased to respond to any questions pertaining to the CFIA’s role in elver exports and imports.KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English] Thank you for that.We'll now go to Mr. Mallette from the Canada Border Services Agency for an opening statement of five minute or less, please.ParthiMuthukumarasamyDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette (Regional Director General, Atlantic Region, Canada Border Services Agency): (1630)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good morning, everyone.Members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear before you.[English]I first want to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.I would like to underscore that the illegal fishing of American eel elvers is of great concern to the CBSA, and I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to the committee's study on this topic.(1635)[Translation]I will share with the committee the roles and responsibilities of the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, as they relate to preventing the illegal elver fishery and the export of illegally caught elvers.The CBSA plays a supporting role by verifying that other departmental requirements are met for fish and seafood imported into and exported from Canada, and by administering the Customs Act.[English]The CBSA works closely with departments and agencies, such as the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, to ensure, among other things, that fish, seafood and seafood products being imported to and exported from Canada are compliant with program legislation.[Translation]Upon identification of a specific shipment or commodity of concern by DFO, the CBSA works jointly with DFO to identify and intercept shipments to ensure compliance with all government regulations.[English]The CBSA is actively working to prevent the export of illegally caught elvers. There are currently no licences, permits or certificates prescribed in any OGD legislation that must be presented or verified at the border in order to export fish, including elvers, from Canada. The only exceptions are the endangered species controlled under the Wild Animal and Plant Protection and Regulation of International and Interprovincial Trade Act, which includes the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. In this respect, the CBSA assists Environment and Climate Change Canada with the administration and enforcement of these acts by ensuring that any shipments are accompanied by the required permits. Suspected non-compliant shipments are detained and referred to ECCC wildlife enforcement officers. The CBSA may also notify ECCC of wildlife taken in contravention of provincial laws, which is an offence under the act.Currently, American eel elvers are not protected by CITES.[Translation]The CBSA collects statistical information on the export of certain fish and certain fishing catches through its electronic reporting requirements. This information is transmitted daily to Statistics Canada by way of electronic file transfers.[English]The CBSA works with ECCC wildlife enforcement and DFO officers on criminal investigations with a border nexus, such as smuggling activities.The CBSA is also a member of the recently formed interdepartmental fish and seafood traceability task force, led by the DFO, which addresses, in part, illegal, unregulated and unreported fisheries.Additionally, the DFO is currently developing regulations to impose the requirement of a licence to allow the export of elvers. This will provide the CBSA with enhanced authorities to intercept eels at the border.We will continue to work with the DFO as it develops these regulations, and we will make sure that our border officers are trained and prepared to stop and seize illegal elver exports once these regulations come into force. The CBSA regularly updates directions to frontline officers to manage the handling, interdiction or release of high-risk goods.[Translation]As a final point, the CBSA is continuously working to improve not only our relationships with our partners, but also our collective intelligence and enforcement capabilities, our operations, our lessons learned and our successes.That concludes my opening remarks. I'm happy to answer your questions.KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you for that.We'll now go to Sue Black for an opening statement of five minutes or less, please.DominicMalletteSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionChief Superintendent Sue Black (Criminal Operations Officer, H Division, Core Criminal Operations, Nova Scotia, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): (1635)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to speak to plans and strategies towards preventing incidents of violence subsequent to the cancellation of the 2024 elver fishing season.My name is Chief Superintendent Sue Black, and I am the criminal operations officer for the Nova Scotia RCMP or what we refer to as H division. The criminal operations officer is responsible for uniform and plainclothes investigative personnel with a mandate of core provincial policing services. I have been with the RCMP for 35 years in a number of roles, including core policing and, under the federal policing umbrella, border integrity, war crimes and international policing.I am joined today by Chief Superintendent Darren Campbell, who is the criminal operations officer—my counterpart—for the RCMP in New Brunswick, also known as the J division.The RCMP takes its primary role of upholding public safety very seriously.(1640)[Translation]The RCMP is mandated with protecting the public and enforcing applicable laws, including the Criminal Code, independently of political direction or influence. The RCMP will continue to take steps to ensure that those who unlawfully interfere with or threaten the safety of any person or property will be held accountable in accordance with the laws of Canada.The RCMP's approach is impartial, respectful and balanced. It engages proactively with the community and stakeholders and develops communication and mitigation strategies aimed at preventing conflict. Our continued goal is to maintain the peace and facilitate peaceful resolutions to public order events.[English] The RCMP's role within the context of elver fishing, where it is the police of jurisdiction, is to respond to any Criminal Code infractions arising from conflict between parties involved in related disputes, to take proactive steps to reduce the risk of public safety incidents and to seek peaceful outcomes in the event of public order events.RCMP division liaison team—or DLT—resources engage with all fishery stakeholders to facilitate conversations and understanding between parties with a goal of peaceful outcomes. The DLT has a long-standing and positive relationship with key stakeholders, including in the industry. This team is positioned to participate in dialogue to minimize risks to all persons and assist the RCMP in ensuring public safety.The Nova Scotia RCMP has a well-established plan and command structure that covers operational, tactical and strategic-level responses for planned and unplanned major incidents.[Translation]Should civil unrest occur, uniformed personnel can be supplemented by additional strategic tactical operations resources from surrounding jurisdictions. Operational contingency plans are in place to respond if required. Should an event materialize outside of the RCMP’s jurisdiction, the RCMP is prepared to support and bolster the lead agency’s law enforcement posture and activities. In the event of civil unrest, such as a public order event, the emergency coordination centre, led by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or DFO, and supported by the Nova Scotia RCMP and the Canadian Coast Guard, will ensure a unified approach that maximizes the Government of Canada’s response. The Nova Scotia RCMP continues to support DFO through participation in emergency coordination centre activities.[English]The RCMP is committed to reconciliation and renewed, enhanced relationships with indigenous communities based on the recognition of rights, respect, co-operation and partnership. As such, any possible actions taken by the RCMP will be in the spirit of the culturally respectful efforts made to date to build meaningful, trustworthy and lasting relationships with indigenous communities and their peoples.All of our work continues to include co-operation and partnership with the communities we serve.Ultimately, while efforts to find a peaceful, long-term resolution rooted in the recognition of legitimate indigenous treaty rights continue, the RCMP will remain focused on upholding public safety, maintaining peaceful conditions for all involved and thoroughly investigating Criminal Code offences. Thank you, Chair, for inviting me to appear before you today. KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Thank you.We'll go to our rounds of questions.We'll start with Mr. Perkins for six minutes or less, please.SueBlackRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins (South Shore—St. Margarets, CPC): (1640)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, witnesses, for coming.I'd like to begin with the CBSA, if I could. I'll name the organizations and you guys can choose who's most appropriate to answer. It'll make it easier and I won't destroy your names, either.CBSA, are you aware of a company in Toronto owned by Zheng Chao and Mark Mao, which exported somewhere in the neighbourhood of 100 tonnes of elvers out of the Toronto airport last year?KenMcDonaldAvalonDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1645)[English] I personally am not aware of that company, to be honest. I would question the quantities exported, but I can't do that at this time, so—RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]Well, it was verified—those approximate numbers were verified—in the Chronicle Herald a couple of weeks ago. They got the export numbers from Hong Kong. They were going through Hong Kong. They were confirmed.My follow-up question is for the CFIA. A number of those exports had CFIA certification tags on them, going through Hong Kong. They go through Hong Kong, go through Korea and then move to China.You testified, I think, that you don't have any record of that. I find it hard to believe that when that kind of volume of live seafood was going through on plane manifests, out of a terminal in Toronto, you wouldn't know that.DominicMalletteParthiMuthukumarasamyParthiMuthukumarasamyParthi-MuthukumarasamyInterventionDr. Parthi Muthukumarasamy: (1645)[English]As I mentioned in the opening remarks, Hong Kong does not require export certification for export to Hong Kong from Canada, unless the product will be re-exported to China. We have not issued any export certification to Hong Kong, or to China, since—RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]One, are you aware that all those exports are going to China? That's where the aquaculture is to grow them. Two, are you aware that in Hong Kong they're forging CFIA documents for the export to China?ParthiMuthukumarasamyParthiMuthukumarasamyParthiMuthukumarasamyParthi-MuthukumarasamyInterventionDr. Parthi Muthukumarasamy: (1645)[English]When we are aware of forged certificates, we take action. We have a mechanism in place for enforcement and investigation activities. We were not notified in Hong Kong or by Hong Kong authorities of any forged certificates that have been used. Unfortunately, we don't have jurisdiction in Hong Kong. It's for the Hong Kong authorities to investigate.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]If you don't have jurisdiction there, how do you know they're not forging?ParthiMuthukumarasamyParthiMuthukumarasamyParthiMuthukumarasamyParthi-MuthukumarasamyInterventionDr. Parthi Muthukumarasamy: (1645)[English]We are not aware of any forged certificates being used.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]Thank you.To the CBSA, are you aware that large amounts of illegal elver exports go out in live lobster crates to China?ParthiMuthukumarasamyDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1645)[English]Yes, I am fully aware.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]Do you inspect all lobster crates of live lobster going out of Halifax or any other border in Canada?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1645)[English]The short answer to that, Mr. Chair, is no. The CBSA does not inspect 100% of lobster shipments going out, either at Halifax or at Toronto. Doing that would likely lead to significant complications in the entire lobster industry.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]What percentage do you do?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1645)[English]I could not give you a percentage, to be honest. We do random examinations, in fact.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]Could you tell us the percentage in a written statement to the committee, please?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1645)[English]I could come back and give you a percentage, perhaps.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]Thank you.To the RCMP, you're the Nova Scotia provincial police force. Is that correct?DominicMalletteSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1645)[English]Yes, we are the provincial police in Nova Scotia.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]As part of that responsibility, you have a responsibility for enforcing trespassing law and the illegal possession and use of firearms in the province, do you not?SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1645)[English]Yes, we do.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1645)[English]Last year, during the illegal elver season, very few, if any, trespassing charges were laid. Maybe you can enlighten us on that. I can tell you that I know from my constituents, two minutes from my house, that the RCMP were called nightly at the Tantallon detachment and were asked to make arrests. There were nightly poachers on their land, over four months, defecating and destroying their land. Eventually, the detachment said to please stop calling them or they would arrest them. They would arrest the property owner. Why would the RCMP refuse to enforce the trespassing law on the south shore of Nova Scotia in the Halifax regional municipality, where there is jurisdiction, but instead threaten the victims of the crime being committed?SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1645)[English]Thank you for the question, Chair.I am aware of the member's assertions. I want to assure the committee that I was quite concerned when I heard about them. I did some research, and this is what I found. We searched our databases for trespassing occurrences related to elver fishing. Since January 2023, we found six complaints. We followed up on all of them. In four out of the six instances, we attended personally to the call.It's important to note that trespassing at night, under section 177 in the Criminal Code, is a summary conviction offence. For any enforcement action to be taken, that would mean that we would have to find them committing it.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1650)[English]I would suggest that your record-keeping is weak. I do know that a third of the jobs in your call centre aren't filled. The issue is that these folks were phoning every night, unless you're saying that they are misleading the media and me as to what's going on. I would ask that you enforce the trespassing law. These rivers are full of people with illegal firearms, and no one has been charged with having illegal firearms. I would suggest that the RCMP has to do a better job of enforcing those basic laws.Thank you.SueBlackKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English] Thank you, Mr. Perkins.We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier (Acadie—Bathurst, Lib.): (1650)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My first question is for Mr. Mallette.Several weeks or maybe months ago, the industry discussed certain tools that could be available to you for such things as traceability. Other jurisdictions, including Maine, have adopted an approach that allows for eel tracing. Can you tell us if this is being done elsewhere and explain to us how we could implement the same traceability process here for the elver fishery?KenMcDonaldAvalonDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1650)[Translation]Mr. Chair, the traceability of elvers isn't the responsibility of the Canada Border Services Agency. The only tools I'm aware of were used by the CBSA to identify[English]elvers in boxes of lobster or other boxes at the airport, so that cannot speak to traceability for elver in the industry.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1650)[Translation]I want to make sure that we fully understand the scope of what's going on at the moment. Right now, fishing is illegal. If someone tried to export elvers, how would you stop that from happening?You said earlier that it's impossible to monitor all shipments, but how are you going to make sure that doesn't happen?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1650)[Translation]Mr. Chair, if we find undeclared elvers, whether at the Halifax airport or the Toronto airport, we have the authority to seize them. If they are declared under the Export and Import Permits Act, all we can do is[English]a referral, I guess, to CFIA to see what authorities they may have to seize those or otherwise.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1650)[Translation]Okay.Ms. Black, in recent weeks, has the RCMP made any arrests or seizures on rivers or waterways in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or elsewhere?DominicMalletteSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1650)[Translation]Thank you for the question.The RCMP's primary mandate is public safety and conducting investigations into Criminal Code offences.[English]Anything to do with violations of the Fisheries Act falls to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1650)[Translation]Were arrests made anyway?SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1650)[English]With regard to any arrests that were made in relation to infractions of the Fisheries Act, I can't speak to that, but from an RCMP perspective, whenever there's a nexus to the elver situation or issue, if we are asked for assistance and if we investigate Criminal Code offences that are related, then we would make the arrests. The most recent arrests would have occurred on March 16, subsequent to a request for assistance from DFO for our help in managing Criminal Code offences that were related to their enforcement action with regard to the Fisheries Act. SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1655)[Translation]That doesn't really answer my question, but I understand what your responsibilities are.Mr. Mallette, let's talk more about the tools you have to trace elvers. What tools would you need right now to do your job properly? Do you already have them or do you need other tools so we don't end up in the same situation as in recent years?SueBlackDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1655)[Translation]Thank you for your question.We do have the tools to trace elvers. We can use X-ray machines to scan boxes of lobsters or elvers to see if there are actually elvers inside. We have the equipment to do that.That said, we still have to deal with the issue of traceability, which is not our responsibility. Our responsibility is to identify elvers at the time of export, if necessary.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1655)[English] Ms. Black, I'm going back to you. I'm not sure if you can answer this. The RCMP still knows what's going on, on the ground. With what you saw happening last year, do you think we could have had a safe season this year, if there had been an open season of elver fishing?DominicMalletteSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1655)[English]I don't think I can project the future state. Our agency doesn't have a direct mandate with the Fisheries Act. We're focused on Criminal Code offences. I assume the question could be answered by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, in terms of their risk assessments surrounding this decision.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Thank you, Mr. Cormier.We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less.SueBlackCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens (Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix, BQ): (1655)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to our witnesses for being here. It's always valuable to have people with their expertise here. We gain a better understanding of the critical situation that hits honest fishers hardest because they're the ones who end up without a job. That's extremely troubling. I have met with fishers who have worked so hard to develop this market for over 20 years, and now they've been left high and dry, so to speak.How can we save honest fishers—let's call them that—and quickly solve a number of problems and reopen this fishery next year, say? Do you have a timeline in mind?I'm not sure who this question should go to. I might not be asking the right person. Maybe one or two of the witnesses can answer.I know these people are listening to us today. They can stop fishing for a year; their financial situation allows them to wait until next year. However, without a short or medium-term solution in sight, this lucrative industry will be in quite a bind.These people are making sacrifices now to eliminate the illegal elver fishery. Do you think they can look forward to resuming their activities soon?I don't see anyone jumping in here.KenMcDonaldAvalonDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1655)[Translation]Maybe that question is better put to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans than to CBSA.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1655)[Translation]At this point in time, are the tools at your disposal sufficient to do assessments, impose constraints, conduct investigations and even arrest offenders? Do you have enough financial, technical and human resources on the ground?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1700)[Translation]I can answer that.If regulations allowed us to enforce the act, that would help. If permits were required for either importing or exporting, that would help us combat the problem. Export permits aren't required at this point. That's something that would really help us.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1700)[Translation]That's one thing you'd like to see. That would enable traceability. That's actually the key to traceability. When there is an export or import permit, people can trace the origin and destination of the products. I understand. There should be regulations for issuing permits.It looks like offenders have the upper hand. Could the regulations be stricter and the fines stiffer?That's what I've always recommended because I think it's a good idea. That's what we do for some of these things in Quebec.Could the committee recommend imposing stiffer fines and returning that revenue to the security system to pay for better tools and equipment? Would that be helpful? Is that wishful thinking?DominicMalletteParthiMuthukumarasamyParthiMuthukumarasamyParthi-MuthukumarasamyInterventionDr. Parthi Muthukumarasamy: (1700)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.That question is more appropriate for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. However, we are working closely with DFO in their development of regulations. They're working through that. I believe DFO has plans to regulate the possession and export of elvers, in terms of permitting and controlling any illegal fisheries.From an agency perspective, we have a number of tools when we see non-compliance, including cancelling licences to operate—for example, in food establishments—administrative monetary penalties, prosecution, etc., and we take action when our regulations and legislation are not complied with.Thank you, Mr. Chair.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1700)[English]Similarly, the regulations that we believe may come into force sometime in the future will certainly help the CBSA.In the meantime, we do have access to regulatory options of enforcement comprising fines under the Customs Act or criminal prosecution when the act is contravened, but we haven't come across that in recent times.We're looking, and we are ready to fully exercise our authorities when the time comes.ParthiMuthukumarasamyKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Madame Desbiens. There are only three seconds left on your clock, so we'll move on to the next questioner.We have Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.DominicMalletteLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, NDP): (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.My first question is for Mr. Mallette from CBSA.We had the deputy minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Ms. Annette Gibbons, recently at the committee. She was speaking to the committee about how not opening the elver fishery in 2024 would make it impossible to launder or mix legally and illegally caught elvers.I'm wondering if, in your role, you can provide your thoughts about whether this closure that's happening will make it easier for the Canada Border Services Agency to prevent the export of illegally caught elvers. Could you speak to this comment that was made?KenMcDonaldAvalonDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1700)[English]Thank you for the question.It's difficult to answer. I haven't read that statement by the deputy minister. I'm not sure whether, even if the fishery is closed, legally and illegally caught elvers won't get mixed. I think the problem remains. I'm not sure if I answered your question.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1700)[English]I was as confused by it as you were, so thank you for confirming that. Perhaps I'll dig a little deeper into that.I'm wondering if you can share what you feel is needed. What is the most effective tool that could be put into place to help CBSA identify illegal elvers crossing the border?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1705)[English]I'll go back to my previous answer to this.If we had a proper regulatory regime in place and a permit requirement, it would help us tremendously in identifying illegal shipments and give us the authority to actively pursue non-compliance.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1705)[English]Mr. Mallette, I'll continue with you. You spoke about the licences. Now you're speaking about regulatory practices and so on. I'm wondering if you could share a bit more about how CBSA would enforce these licences and what would be needed by CBSA to operationalize a system of licences in order to ensure unlicensed elvers are not crossing the border.DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1705)[English]Presumably, as with any other commodity, if permits were required by law, they would have to be submitted to the CBSA upon export. We would presumably have a copy of that permit available to us for verification and could react accordingly, should there not be a permit included in the export transaction or submission.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1705)[English]To clarify, Mr. Mallette, is there something specific the committee should be aware of—a resource, a tool, funding, supports or training? Is there something specific you can share that CBSA may require through this change, if this is implemented?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1705)[English]I'll answer that by saying that if permits were, in fact, required and the law provided for them to be submitted to the CBSA, I suspect system enhancement on the CBSA side could help validate the presence of the permit in the system in order to expedite the validation process. Therefore, perhaps system enhancements...once the permit is legally required to be submitted.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1705)[English] Thank you.My next question is for Chief Superintendent Black. Ms. Black, I would like to just read for you a portion of an email that was sent to me by an elver harvester. Perhaps you can provide some comment on it because it particularly touched me to hear these words. It says: In the past, our safety procedures simply involved wearing a lifejacket, wearing the proper wet gear, carrying a flashlight, fishing in pairs etc. Now our safety is jeopardized every night—They go on to say this: —because of the complete lack of enforcement of IUU elver fishingLast season we called both C&P and RCMP when [we] were confronted by poachers and no response, from either. I cannot over state the...frustration (and bewilderment) when we had NO response from law enforcement!This lawlessness and lack of enforcement has undermined my sense of safety in my workplace. The last thing she says is this: Just imagine if someone entered your office, stole your laptop, destroyed it, yelled at you, left their garbage all over your office—and you called the police and they refused to come. AND then you lose your job and your income is given to the perpetrator.I thought this was a really important example of the impacts.I'm wondering if you can provide some thoughts around this email that I received, please.DominicMalletteSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1705)[English]Thank you for your question. It's important to note, as I stated in my opening remarks, that it's about mandate. The RCMP's mandate is focused on public safety and the enforcement of Criminal Code offences. With regard to harvesting, conservation and protection of Canada's freshwater and green fisheries, that falls to the mandate of DFO. It also falls to the DFO for enforcement of alleged or actual violations of the Fisheries Act. Where we get reports of Criminal Code activity, we will respond. We do respond and investigate appropriately.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]Thank you, Ms. Barron.We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.SueBlackCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small (Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, CPC): (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming out today and taking part in this study. Mr. Mallette, I heard you say that there's no proper regulatory regime in place. DFO has known about the catastrophe in the elver fishery for the last 10 years. Wouldn't you think that this would be enough time for a regime to be put in place that could straighten all this out?KenMcDonaldAvalonDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1710)[English]I don't think I said there's no proper regulatory regime. I think enhancing the current regime would help. Second, I think this question would be much better answered by DFO.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]Do you think DFO has failed the elver fishery?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1710)[English]I can't comment on that. CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]You have no comment. Twenty times more elvers were exported last year than there was a quota for. Was the quota amount flagged to you?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1710)[English]I've heard that statement made before. I have not verified it, to be honest. I hear a lot of statistics being shared. One challenge that does exist for us is that elvers and eels are both identified using the same code, which is called an HS code in the system, so I'm cautious about trying to discuss statistics, because we're not counting the same things. I think one enhancement that could be made—and I believe DFO is currently working on this—is to create a specific HS code to differentiate between eels and elvers, which will fix some of the data.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]Mr. Mallette, is the export of elvers currently banned? Is there an export ban right now? DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1710)[English]There is no export ban on elvers that are imported from outside of Canada. There is a ban on elvers that are fished within Canadian territory.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]How good is your math inside your organization on calculating how many elvers are coming in from other countries to be transshipped versus what's going out? Obviously, last year there must have been some kind of a mismatch. DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1710)[English]I can't comment on that without looking the numbers, to be honest, and analyzing the numbers.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]Would you be able to provide the committee with some written testimony on that?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1710)[English] We can certainly look at the data and provide you what's available to us that would be reasonable to answer the question, yes.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]Thank you very much. My next question is for Chief Superintendent Black. I have some ATIP information here. I would say there are about 50 reports of illegal elver fishing. I opened the page and I was very surprised to see this report of seven or eight people setting up nets and fishing for elvers near Yarmouth. They stated there are vehicles, but did not have descriptions. There were no descriptions of the vehicles, including licence plates or who owned them. They also stated some are indigenous and some are not, but there's no fishing allowed in the area.The thing that got me is that some were indigenous and some were not. What does that have to do...? Why would that language be in an email that's coming from an official in your department?DominicMalletteSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1710)[English]I'm not aware of the documents you're sharing with us today.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]These are from an ATIP. They were provided by the RCMP.SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1710)[English]Was that in Nova Scotia?CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]Yes.SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1710)[English]I have no background on it, so I can't answer why the comments were made in that email.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]If we have to distinguish between indigenous and non-indigenous people, it makes me think that there's some kind of directive coming down from the minister. Was there, in fact, a directive delivered to the RCMP on how to enforce the law, depending on the ethnicity of the poachers?SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1710)[English]No, there was not such a directive.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1710)[English]Why would that be laid out—SueBlackKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English]Your time has expired, Mr. Small. We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes or less, please.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway (Cape Breton—Canso, Lib.): (1710)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it. I want to thank everyone here today for their service—and those who are online, of course.I think it's important to come back to the facts and what people are feeling. The facts are that last year, we had an unprecedented onslaught, particularly in the South Shore, but also in different parts of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. We heard a lot of testimony here, but we also heard a lot in phone calls and emails from people who were concerned or worried. People are fearful.What I've seen this year.... Again, these are my observations, but they're from some information in relation to what's going on with C and P and the RCMP, even since we last chatted. Between March 6 and 18, I believe, there were about 33 arrests, six vehicles seized, 63 nets seized and one firearm seized. We had a C and P officer who was rammed by an alleged criminal.These men and women are putting their lives on the line for their fellow brothers and sisters. It is complicated. I'm fearful for these individuals who are laying their lives on the line for us, but they're doing it, and for the last couple of weeks, they have seemingly been doing a much better job. I commend C and P and the RCMP for what they do when they go into those situations, because they don't know what's going to happen. I appreciate it so much.I want to stick with the South Shore for a bit, which is in Mr. Perkins' riding. There's been a lot of activity there, in particular. This is to the RCMP. We hear time and time again about organized crime. Can you give us any type of information on organized crime? To what degree is it being investigated? What's the follow-up?KenMcDonaldAvalonSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1715)[English]One of the RCMP's national priorities is organized crime, but unfortunately, I can't speak to specific ongoing investigations. Organized crime entities are involved in many commodities. I'll leave it at that.We take complaints seriously and follow up on any that fall within our mandate. Our members across the province work very hard to build trust with communities and encourage Nova Scotians to come forward to report crimes that may be affecting their safety. Through direct contact with police and through the crime stoppers program, when we get complaints that are linked to organized crime, we investigate them.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1715)[English] I appreciate that.How closely are the RCMP and C and P working together? I keep hearing that they are. How close are they? I would appreciate it if you could keep it brief. Thank you.SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1715)[English]We meet regularly with DFO enforcement officials—C and P—on the elver issue to share information that's related to our mandates, if we hear of any information that might assist them or vice versa. We share regularly and try to stay on top of things as they evolve, if that answers your question.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1715)[English]Thank you.I'll just stay with the RCMP for one more question, and then I want to go to CBSA. Has the ministry of fisheries ever directed the RCMP to do anything, ordered you or told you what to do?SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1715)[English]No, they have not.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1715)[English][Technical difficulty—Editor] the ministry and the RCMP. There's a reason why they are separate. Isn't that right?SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1715)[English]I'm sorry. The first part of your question dropped.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1715)[English]I said that there's a reason for the separation between the ministry and the police officers, the RCMP provincially. You would never hear from a minister ordering you what to do, where to go or what to investigate.SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1715)[English]Exactly. We operate independently of any political interests.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1715)[English]Thank you.I have 30 seconds.In terms of CBSA, one of the witnesses talked about hand-held devices that can really dive into what's in a crate or a box. Do we use them now? Are we looking at using new technological tools that lend themselves to better traceability and better observation? Clearly, elvers are going to Halifax port, Montreal port, Montreal airport and Toronto airport. Are we investigating any new tools to uncover elvers?SueBlackDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1715)[English]We're not investigating the use of new tools. I believe that we have the tools that are necessary to identify the commodity in question—again, outside of traceability, for examination purposes. That's how I'm responding to the question.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1720)[English]Thank you.DominicMalletteKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.We'll go to Madame Desbiens now for two and a half minutes or less, please.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1720)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.There are two things I want to dig into.First of all, money is the sinews of war. Because of fines, 99% of people wear their seat belt. Even if you're not the one putting that kind of thing in place, do you think that increasing fines give you more leverage? My husband was a police officer, so that's one of the terms we use. It's easier to deter offenders when there's a way to punish them. The problem is that rule-followers are being punished. They're losing their income.So, first, can substantially higher fines deter offenders?Second—you may tell me this is a question for the government—could we look at reinvesting the money that police recover from the black market to help people dealing with drug problems or revenue from traffic fines to maintain roads? That's what we do in Quebec. That money goes back into the system, so it ends up costing the government nothing.Do you think that makes sense, or do you think it would have no impact on these crimes?KenMcDonaldAvalonDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1720)[Translation]I'll answer the first question.In my experience, yes, in some situations increasing fines helps correct bad behaviour. We've seen that in the past.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1720)[Translation]They're rich people, right?So, you think it would have an impact.DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1720)[Translation]Yes, but I don't know if it would have the same impact there. It might, but I can't really give you a guarantee.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1720)[Translation]You'd have to try it. That could be a recommendation.DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1720)[Translation]I really can't comment on the second question.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1720)[Translation]That's another issue, yes.Thank you.DominicMalletteKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English] Thank you, Madame Desbiens.We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes or less, please.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1720)[English] Thank you, Chair.I'm just trying to remember if the question was already asked and I missed it. Chief Superintendent Black, did somebody already ask how many people were arrested in 2023 in relation to complaints that may have been called in relating to the elver fishery? Do we have any numbers or a sense of how many arrests have been made?KenMcDonaldAvalonSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1720)[English]There was a question asked about assertions made around the RCMP response to trespassing complaints. There wasn't a question about the number of arrests. However, I can say, as I mentioned earlier, that we researched our database. We've had six complaints of trespassing related to the elver fishery since January 2023. We followed up on all the cases and physically attended in four of those six cases. As I was explaining in my last answer, “Trespassing at night” is section 177 of the Criminal Code. It's at night. It's a summary conviction offence. In order for us to enforce it, we have to physically see the person in the act of trespassing. In four of the six cases, we located persons at the site of the trespassing. It also usually has to go with another criminal intent. There was a conversation where the persons were asked to leave, and those who were approached did leave.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1720)[English]Just to clarify, you said that you followed up. What do you mean by “followed up”? Is there a time frame in which a follow-up...?SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1720)[English]“Follow up” could mean anything from taking the call, getting all the information possible from the person who is making the complaint and determining.... For instance, in the case of trespassing—I'm just going to give an example—if the persons are gone, then we're not going to attend, because they're gone. That would be the end of our follow-up. We would do the paperwork, fill out the report, etc. and close the file. If the complainant makes another call, then we would deal with it again, appropriately, depending on what the case is. It's all about what the information is that we have on hand and how we appropriately approach it, because everything—Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Okay, your time is up, Ms. Barron.Thank you for that.We have three or four minutes left, so I'll go to Mr. Arnold for three minutes, to get in a couple of questions if he can.SueBlackMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold (North Okanagan—Shuswap, CPC): (1725)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank all of those attending today as witnesses for their services through public safety, food safety, border safety and criminal activity. Your service is greatly appreciated.First of all, Superintendent Black, are officers provided training on how to decide whom to arrest and, more so, whom not to arrest?KenMcDonaldAvalonSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1725)[English]We get extensive training on the enforcement of Criminal Code offences and other statutes that we have mandate over. I'll try to go fairly quickly, with the committee's indulgence. It starts in depot, in our training academy. We get six months initially, followed by six months of field training, and then followed by in-service training throughout our careers. Depending on the area of our work and expertise, we will take job-related training that supports our ability to enforce various legislation.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1725)[English]I take it that officers are trained in whom to arrest, or when to make an arrest and when not to make an arrest. I'll take a yes-or-no answer: yes, they're trained, or no, they're not.SueBlackSueBlackSueBlackSue-BlackInterventionC/Supt Sue Black: (1725)[English]Yes, they are.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1725)[English]Okay. Thank you.Mr. Mallette, you stated today that we need a proper regulatory regime in place in order for your department to act properly. I made a note of that when you stated it. If that regime was in place, how would you differentiate between elvers imported into Canada versus elvers harvested in Canada? That seemed to be the situation last year from the anecdotal information we have—they were being mixed together, and there was no way of knowing what was being exported from Canada.SueBlackDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1725)[English] The proposed regulations from our partners at DFO would specifically address the co-mingling of legally fished elvers in Canada and those that are imported. It would ensure they remain separate. It would provide us with a great deal of clarity about which one is which and how we can enforce accordingly.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1725)[English]Is this regulatory regime really what is needed to solve this ongoing problem? From everything we're seeing, it's been happening since at least 2017, because you quoted—I believe it was you or CBSA—that there have been no shipments to some countries since 2017, or no permits issued to some countries since 2017. This is a seven-year-old problem that has yet to be solved, so what are the solutions?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1725)[English]I'm not sure how to answer your question, because it went to different places. You mentioned 2017. I didn't reference 2017 myself. Perhaps we're talking about shipments to China versus Hong Kong. I don't know. Can you rephrase the question, and I'll attempt to answer it?MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1725)[English]What is needed for a safe, legal harvest, shipment, and export of elvers, aside from people abiding by the laws already in place?DominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominicMalletteDominic-MalletteInterventionMr. Dominic Mallette: (1725)[English]I would suggest that if we had enhanced regulations, they would tremendously assist with the interdiction, yes.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Thank you, Mr. Arnold.I want to thank our witnesses for our first hour's panel on this study today. Thank you for sharing your time and your knowledge with us to help us write a report on this very important matter. I'll let the people on Zoom sign off. We'll change our witnesses here in the room and move on to the next group.We'll suspend for a few minutes. (1725)(1730)DominicMalletteKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[English]Welcome back. On our second panel today, from the Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc., we have Genna Carey, president; and Stanley King, spokesperson. From the Shelburne Elver co-operative, we have Zachary Townsend, fisherman.Thank you for taking the time to appear today.I now invite Genna Carey to make her opening statement for five minutes or less, please. KenMcDonaldAvalonGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey (President, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.): (1735)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm grateful for the opportunity to inform this committee on the status of the Canadian elver industry and the management—or mismanagement, I should say—that has caused it to spiral into the troubled industry you see today.I'm here representing the Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery, which represents the majority of the commercial industry. With me today is Stanley King, CCSEF spokesperson, and Zachary Townsend, an elver fisherman with the Shelburne Elver co-operative.Mr. Chair, as you know, this past week, the minister pre-emptively cancelled the 2024 elver fishery, putting more than 1,100 legal elver fishers out of work. This marks the third shutdown in five years, which only serves to highlight the incompetence of the department and the bad advice they continue to give successive ministers—six in eight years, if we're counting.I want to be clear that the fishery today is identical to what it was 12 months ago. Nothing has changed. In fact, the problems that the minister cites have existed since 2020 without any meaningful action by DFO to improve the fishery, despite repeated pleas from stakeholders. DFO's solution to these problems has always been the same: Shut down the legal fishery, turn a blind eye to the poaching and hope the problem magically goes away.The blatant mismanagement of this fishery is obvious to everyone, including the governments of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and even the minister's own Atlantic caucus colleagues. They've all voiced opposition to cancelling the fishery and requested that the minister meet with stakeholders before making any final decision, something she ultimately refused to do, despite the gravity of her choice.Perhaps this is because the department, the deputy and the minister's office in general have made a concerted effort to paint the elver industry as greedy eel barons rather than 1,100 hard-working women and men, mostly indigenous, who make up this industry under commercial or communal licences. This disrespectful characterization forms part of a disinformation campaign of DFO talking points that are demonstrably false and designed to cover up mismanagement. The species is not at risk. Traceability projects don't take years to implement, and enforcement isn't impossible. These are just convenient excuses.Cancelling the elver fishery has cost our rural economies more than $100 million since 2020. Not opening the fishery in 2024 to await long-overdue regulations that will ultimately be ignored by unlicensed fishers is nothing short of dereliction of duty by the minister. We have no confidence that the government will adequately address the industry's problems before next season, and history supports our skepticism.I'd like to give Zach the opportunity to speak to the committee so that the members can learn how DFO's mismanagement is directly impacting their constituents.KenMcDonaldAvalonZacharyTownsendZacharyTownsendZachary-TownsendInterventionMr. Zachary Townsend (Fisherman, Shelburne Elver Cooperative): (1735)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I am really honoured to testify today as one of almost 1,100 elver harvesters who have been impacted by the decision of the minister to surrender the fishery to unlicensed, illegal harvesters. My sole purpose today is to provide a human face to the frustrations and panic among the 1,100 Maritimers who have suddenly found themselves without employment due to DFO mismanagement of the elver fishery.For the last 10 years, I have managed the eel holding facility for Shelburne Elver Limited. My grandfather was an elver fisher. My father is an elver fisher, and my brother is an elver fisher. This fishery is my family's livelihood. As Genna said, there seems to be a perception in Ottawa that the eight enterprise elver licence holders are the only folks who can earn a living in this industry. I am here to tell you that this simply isn't true. My employer, Shelburne Elver, is a co-operative of 17 original shareholders who surrendered their adult eel licences over 25 years ago to remove fishing effort at the adult stage. This ensures that, in the entire area where my employer fishes, there is no overlapping adult eel fishery.When the minister doesn't cancel the fishery, Shelburne Elver employs up to 50 people. This injects money into rural communities in an economically depressed area.Committee members must fully understand the tremendous human cost of Minister Lebouthillier's decision. I lost my partner to cancer a few months ago. It's been hard—unbearable at times—but to now be unemployed and facing an uncertain financial future is simply a challenge I didn't need. I don't share such sad news to evoke your pity, but instead to remind you that each of us 1,100 Maritimers has a story and a unique set of circumstances now made worse by the minister. Then, to read her tweets from Boston this past week, talking excitedly about how she's protecting Canadian fishing jobs, was just too much for me. To tweet that, just hours before 1,100 of us found out that we no longer had jobs, was just so hurtful. Her lack of awareness and empathy cuts deep, and I wanted you all to see that today.Thank you.GennaCareyKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1740)[English] Thank you for that.We'll now go to questions from the members, beginning with Mr. Perkins for six minutes or less.Go ahead, please. ZacharyTownsendRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1740)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, witnesses. Thank you, in particular, Zachary, for sharing your story and representing 1,100 families that have been thrown out of work for abiding by the law.How does it feel for you to see people who are breaking the law, who are currently already on the rivers, while you have no way to make a living?KenMcDonaldAvalonZacharyTownsendZacharyTownsendZachary-TownsendInterventionMr. Zachary Townsend: (1740)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.To put it frankly, it makes my blood boil. I know that a lot of my colleagues, my brother and all the people I work with are very confused about how this is happening year after year. That's really all I have to say. It makes my blood boil. Thank you. RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1740)[English]Thank you. Ms. Carey, you mentioned that this has been going on for a decade. Liberal fisheries minister number four, in 2020, shut down the elver fishery, as Liberal fisheries minister number six has just done. Did that reduce the poaching and illegal activity?ZacharyTownsendGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1740)[English]It did not. Each time a shutdown has happened, legal fishers have been removed from the rivers. Unlicensed and unregulated fishing has continued for months afterwards. RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1740)[English]Have you been proposing solutions, such as traceability? I've read in some of your letters and submissions that you've even offered to pay for it, so that taxpayers don't have to pay for it, and to help the previous witness from CBSA, as well as RCMP and others, understand which are legal and which are not.What has the department's reaction been over the years on that?GennaCareyGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1740)[English]Certainly, we've been asking for a traceability system in this industry for well over 10 years. Each year we've been told, “Well, next year we'll get that sorted out.” This past year, it became obvious that nothing would be coming in the next year unless we took matters into our own hands, so I personally sourced two companies that were available and ready to implement a traceability system for this season. As you said, the industry was willing to pay and comply with this, but when we brought it to DFO, we were told that we could do it for ourselves but it really couldn't be used because it goes against procurement procedures. We would, again, just have to continue to wait for something that we've been holding our breath on for years. RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1740)[English]Ms. Carey or Mr. King, Maine has that system. How long did it take them to put it in place?GennaCareyStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King (Spokesperson, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.): (1740)[English] Thanks for the question.You won't hear this from DFO. DFO likes to make out that creating a traceability system would be a long, drawn-out process. I've heard five, six or seven years from the minister's department.Maine did it in less than a year. They requested it in 2012, and by 2013 it was in place. Now, maybe there have been other interactions that have been slightly improved over the years, but this is not rocket science. It can be implemented rather quickly. There is just an unwillingness to do so. RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1740)[English]DFO has had more than a decade to copy a successful system and has refused to do so.StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1740)[English]The only thing I can say about that is that some people like to learn from their own mistakes; they don't like to learn from the mistakes of others. Canada would like to learn from its own mistakes.You're right that we had a traceability system right in front of us. The same company would do it for us at a pretty reasonable rate.What's more frustrating is that, since 2020, we've written 35 times to the department, from the minister all the way down to this committee, all the way down to our local regional director and our middle managers. We've written 35 times since 2020 to ask for a traceability system, and obviously they are just unwilling. RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1745)[English]Mr. King, last year we really had exponential growth in the crime, and it's transboundary crime. It's money from Asia. It's criminal organizations from the U.S. and across Canada that are now operating freely and lawlessly on our rivers in the Maritimes. I believe you were actually emailing the minister and the director general in Nova Scotia daily with videos and pictures and identification of what was going on, river by river, because the legal licence-holders have motion-activated cameras on the rivers.All through that, and even when the minister closed the fishery after 18 days, you were still persisting, because I think poaching went on into July. Did you ever get a response from C and P, director general Doug Wenzel, the minister's office or any police organization on that information?StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1745)[English] We were upset that the season closed after 18 days and there was no effort to curb poaching. For the first 31 days after the closure, when nobody should have been on the river, I emailed 30 times over 31 days to report poaching every night on six rivers concurrently. I received no emails back.I think this email chain had about 20 people on it. It was going to a lot of C and P local, a lot of C and P national and the minister's office. Nobody got back to me. Nobody came to the river to do anything about the poaching.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1745)[English]Your cameras never picked up any DFO, RCMP or any other law enforcement officers trying to pursue it and see what was going on in the rivers, in the day or at night.StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1745)[English]We caught them in the day one time. It was the day of the closure. They went and put signs on the trees. That was the only time we saw them.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1745)[English]Thank you, Mr. Perkins.We'll go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.StanleyKingSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1745)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.With regard to all the email communication, would you be able to table that for the committee, please?KenMcDonaldAvalonStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1745)[English]I would be very happy to table it for the committee. I've tabled it for many politicians already. I usually just give the last one, because I always number them and so forth: This is the 30th report in 31 days.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1745)[English]Thank you.Ms. Carey, you said that the minister got bad advice during the last decision, and maybe some previous ministers did also. You were in contact with DFO officials on a regular basis regarding the situation that was going on last year, but also previous years. Is that right?StanleyKingGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1745)[English]That's correct.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1745)[English]Do you think there's still time to open a season for commercial licence-holders, a season that will be safe for everyone on those rivers?GennaCareyGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1745)[English]I do think there's still time to open this season. We know that this problem won't be solved overnight. We know that there must be multiple incremental steps taken to get to the finish line, where we need to be. As far as safety on the river is concerned, I can tell you that any incidents requiring police assistance or reports of altercations were not between licensed and unlicensed fishers. They were mostly between unlicensed fishers. In my opinion, in terms of my safety on the river, although there are a lot of people there, when I phone the RCMP for assistance and they tell me they don't respond to elver calls, I certainly don't feel safe. I don't think it will be any worse than previous years, let me say that. To cost that many folks their job, I certainly think it's well worth considering how to get that job done.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1745)[English]You probably listened to the testimony of other witnesses earlier. The one from CBSA talked about the traceability program or tool that you proposed to DFO. What did you think of their answer? Was there anything that made you think that they weren't on the right track or that they don't want to do anything?GennaCareyGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1750)[English]Well, I certainly don't disagree with CBSA's answer that regulations will make it easier for them to do their job. I will point out that those regulations are currently not in place, and not having legal fishers on the river doesn't change that. They still have to find a way to do their job in the next few months, because eels will move through their airport without this fishery happening. I think those regulations are important. They do need to happen. There's no question there. The question is, do you need to put everybody out of work while we wait—and, while we wait, how long will that actually take?SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1750)[English]Okay. Regarding the question I asked the RCMP, I understand their responsibility also, but are you aware of any arrests made on the rivers lately? Was anybody caught?GennaCareyGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1750)[English]I can only speak to my personal experience on that. I can tell you that I personally have phoned the RCMP for assistance on the river when I've been threatened. I have been told that they don't respond to elver calls. Nobody has shown up. At that point, the response for me, for safety in my workplace, is that I have to leave. As a landowner who reports trespassing, I can also assure you that there's no response there either. I find it very hard to believe that there were only six reports for the year. I know landowners on rivers that we fish, and I can speak to their calling more than six times.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1750)[English] This is for Ms. Carey or Mr. King. You said there was bad advice given by a DFO official. Let's put you in the position of the deputy minister of DFO right now. You are the deputy minister. What advice would you give the minister?GennaCareyGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1750)[English]I would start by advising her to speak with the industry. We know this industry better than anyone. I grew up in it. My dad started our company when I was 11. This has been what I've done my whole life. We pioneered this industry and built it from the ground up. Obviously, it's coming to a change. There needs to be a change happening. There is nobody better to give advice to the minister than us.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1750)[English]What kind of advice would you give the minister, Mr. King? Would you say, “We are ready to open the fishery, and here's the reason why”?GennaCareyStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1750)[English]If I were the deputy minister today, I would say, “Minister, you need to meet with industry. They've put forward a concrete plan to improve the safety, traceability and overall conditions of the fishery. You need to do that within the next two weeks, because the fishery can still be saved. We can still save 1,100 jobs.”We have legal opinions. We have concrete ways DFO can use their rules and their set of already existing regulations to save this fishery. They don't need new regulations. They just need to enforce the regulations they already have. Anything else from the minister's office is misdirection. She's refused to meet with us. The deputy met with us in January before this decision to close. We got half an hour of her time. She showed up 10 minutes late and cut us off at the stroke of the hour. First nations have not been consulted. Industry has not been consulted. She just has to listen.I would like to be the deputy minister for a day, if I could.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1750)[English]My time is up, I think.StanleyKingKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1750)[English]You have 28 seconds.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstSergeCormierAcadie—Bathurst//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88350SergeCormierSerge-CormierAcadie—BathurstLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CormierSerge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Serge Cormier: (1750)[English]I ran out of questions.Thank you.KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1750)[English]Thank you.We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less.SergeCormierAcadie—BathurstCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1750)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I could have let Mr. Cormier continue as well, but my questions will be along the same lines as his comments.Mr. King, I know you came to see us very recently. The situations you exposed and the facts you presented were absolutely shocking.You're saying that you now have a plan for security, traceability and fishing conditions, that the regulations are in place and that they just need to be enforced.Why are these regulations not being enforced?KenMcDonaldAvalonStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1750)[Translation]Thank you for your question.[English]It's not being considered, because nobody will listen to our plan. The minister will not listen to our plan. We forwarded it. We don't think there was a genuine consultation period. We've repeatedly asked to meet with the minister. We think it's easier for the government to wash its hands of this industry for this year and just get by it and hope for next year. That's sort of always their answer. They've had two previous closures. They could have worked on this. They know their two previous closures didn't work. We're at the same crossroads now.To put the legal fishermen aside is callous. I think it's a cowardly act. They've bent to the criminals and said, “Listen, you can have the fishery this year. We are going to stand on the sideline.”I would like to tell you that our plan also included a lot of activity with the CBSA to designate airports so that only one airport could be an export point. That was a suggestion by the CBSA.Deputy Minister Gibbons said, when she testified in front of you, that there were a lot of illegal eels mixing with legal eels. Well, that may be the case for a second-party buyer. If you are an exporter and you buy from fishermen, you can buy from legal fishermen and illegal fishermen, and then put them together. We said we would ship our eels directly out of the country so they wouldn't have the opportunity to do that.We've come up with serious, concrete solutions, and nobody will listen.Thank you again for your question.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1755)[Translation]Earlier, the Canada Border Services Agency representatives talked to us about issuing export permits to facilitate traceability.Do you see that as an improvement?StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1755)[English] I think that solution will help CBSA. We found that last year, CBSA seized zero kilograms of elvers, despite DFO telling us that they were working very closely with CBSA. We saw testimony at this committee that refuted that fact. We contacted the CBSA ourselves—the director general. He was happy to meet with us and he more or less told us that they don't really hear from DFO. He said that they're not working with them.We had to educate CBSA and they were happy to do that. They set up multiple meetings. They were very happy to get the information. I believe that we'll see increased enforcement and seizure of shipments this year, but it will not be because of the efforts of DFO. It will be because of the efforts of industry to educate CBSA.Thank you.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1755)[Translation]If that's the case, would closing the fishery, even to legal, honest fishers, make any movement of elvers illegal and easier to identify? Is that really the best choice, or could people continue to fish? Would greater security allow you to continue fishing and gradually eliminate oppression, if I can call it that?StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1755)[English]I think you're absolutely right. We are willing to fish and take care of our own security. We're willing to adopt any suggestions from CBSA or DFO to ensure that poached and black market eels are not leaving the country. I think it's cruel to take 1,100 jobs from 1,100 families in one of the worst economies we've seen in decades. These are rural communities. We need these jobs. The minister has put us in a tough position. I would just like to point out that she refuses to even meet with us. She will not look us in the face. We all had to talk to our employees—50 employees, 25 employees—and tell them. There were a lot of tears. There was a lot of “What am I going to do? I'll have to sell my house. I'll have to sell my car.” We had to look at them. I want the minister to look at me. That's what I would request from this committee.Thank you.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1755)[Translation]The same thing is happening to shrimpers and mackerel fishers in Quebec, though that's a different story.The fishery economy is collapsing even though it's a flourishing economy that helps feed the regions and develop regional economies. For the fishing community, losing 1,100 jobs is not trivial.What can we add to our recommendations? What would you like to see in there? Answer briefly, please.StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1800)[English]That's a very good question. What could we tell you that you could bring to the minister?This has been a 10-year problem. I can tell you that over and over again. The mismanagement of this fishery is nothing short of criminal. What I would like to tell this minister, the past minister and the minister before that is that they cannot blindly take the advice of the regional bureaucrats and take it as an honest assessment of the situation. They need to listen to the stakeholders. We are subject matter experts. Nobody knows this fishery better than us—certainly not somebody who has never held an elver in their hand. They are quick to shoot down our ideas at the regional level and not bring them up to the minister. That's been one of our complaints for a long time.I would like to tell you that we have been working very diligently with first nation fishers, the new entrants and the other entrants who would like to get into it. We can all agree that this fishery is mismanaged. We're trying to solve it on our own. Even for that, DFO does not like us communicating. They would like to put a roadblock in between the two parties. Ultimately, they create the rules, they hold the quota and they will not let us save our own fishery.CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1800)[English]Thank you, Madame Desbiens.I will now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.StanleyKingLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1800)[English]Thank you, Chair.I'm glad it's come to me. My list of questions is getting longer.I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.Maybe I'll just pick up where you left off, Mr. King. If you can, please expand on and share a little bit more about your point around—I don't want to misquote you here—a roadblock that you feel is being placed between indigenous and non-indigenous elver fishers. Can you expand on that a little bit and share what your experience has been?KenMcDonaldAvalonStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1800)[English] Sure. Thank you for the question.We've been requesting for a long time, and we've always been proponents of, greater indigenous access in the fishery—for many, many years. We realized the easiest way to implement something like this, which may actually help the fishery as a whole, is to be in the same room as first nations leaders, especially the ones who would like to co-operate with DFO. We can really work this out.The last time I appeared here, Mr. Cormier suggested just that. I don't know why DFO hasn't brought the two groups together. It was an excellent idea, and this is how it should be. DFO, despite our many requests, is unwilling to do that. It likes to work in silos. It doesn't want the left hand to know what the right hand is doing.We have tried to circumvent DFO by contacting the Assembly of First Nations chiefs ourselves. We've met with them and we've had really great discussions, but ultimately, we can't do anything without DFO's approval. DFO is the governing body, so although we've tried—the first nations are willing to try and the licence-holders are willing to try—DFO is not willing to put us in a room together because it might just reveal too much of what it's been doing, or what it hasn't been doing.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1800)[English]I'm not sure if you'll be able to answer this or not, but what's your sense on this disconnect between indigenous and non-indigenous harvesters? Do you have anything you can share around the implications or impacts of these fishers being separated and not having the opportunity to have these really important discussions?StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1800)[English]DFO has essentially pitted our two camps against each other, when we're basically on the same side. We're all fishermen. We all want to make a living from this resource. We all want to pay tax. We all want to create jobs for our communities. Instead of bringing us together under one umbrella, DFO has separated us, and that causes animosity. That causes strife in the industry and a lack of understanding, because nobody knows what the other side is thinking.There's a real bone to pick with DFO, and this is part of the mismanagement. I want to tell you that this is getting major news. We recently had a university professor contact our industry group, saying, “We would like to make a case study out of the DFO mismanagement in this fishery.” When it gets to that point and when they're making political cartoons about it, something has gone awry and we need serious help, because the help we're getting from DFO is like a lead weight being thrown over a boat.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1805)[English]Thank you, Mr. King. I have many other questions, but thank you for your insight on that.Mr. Townsend, first and foremost, I want to offer my condolences for the loss of your partner. Thank you for sharing with us the stress and hardship that the closure of this industry has created in your life. Those stories are very important in our work, so I want to thank you.I'm wondering if you can share whether you had any consultation at all. Did anybody reach out to you? Were there any opportunities for you to be able to provide input or feedback through this process prior to the closure of the elver fishery?StanleyKingZacharyTownsendZacharyTownsendZachary-TownsendInterventionMr. Zachary Townsend: (1805)[English]Thank you for your question and for your condolences. I really appreciate that.Really, other than being able to write a letter to the minister, which I'm not even sure she read, I was able to talk to my local MP, who was very sympathetic. I heard from a lot of my co-workers that they've been reaching out to their MPs. Many MPs in the Liberal caucus are very sympathetic to what is happening. I had my MP reach out by phone because he was so affected by what I read to him, so thank you.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1805)[English]Thank you, Mr. Townsend.Ms. Carey, you spoke about the traceability system that you felt should be implemented and how you looked for an outside organization that could implement this, but then you were told it could only be used for personal use and it couldn't be expanded beyond that. Please correct me if any of that is incorrect. Based on what you said, that's what I heard.I'm wondering if you can share a bit more, because we did quite an in-depth study on the traceability of seafood, and I think this is a really important component of the work we're doing today. Can you share a bit—because I only have a few seconds left—about what this traceability system might look like? What do you think are the key features of this traceability system?ZacharyTownsendGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1805)[English] It would start where our paper system is leaving off, which is tracking each river, the estimated quota leaving each river, and then final tallies at our facilities once you've done a final weight. However, this would be put into real time, likely digitally through an app with time-stamps and specific to each individual harvester versus a team filling out a logbook. This then allows it to be traced to each person versus each team or each truck. Those numbers are then, obviously, tracked from the riverbank to the facility, and from the facility at each sale, following it, of course, straight out of the country.Depending on the company I was chatting with, there were a few different avenues of getting there. The one Canadian company I spoke with.... Because time was short, things were going to be pilot projects, so probably not the exact system we're going to use forever, but something to get the job done for this season. It would use, say, batch numbers or a tracing number that would then follow each elver shipment out of the country.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1805)[English]Thank you, Ms. Barron.We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.GennaCareyMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1805)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for being here. Your personal situation with this especially creates.... It's really something that all parliamentarians need to hear.Ms. Carey, you were speaking about the traceability system. I'm glad to hear that you spoke about it being real-time and digital and so on. I don't want to diminish in any way the work you are doing, but I'm familiar with the west coast, where it was required to have a printed sheet of paper to record the chinook salmon that one caught. There was a maximum of 10 per year, per fisherman, but all a fisherman needed to do was simply print another piece of paper. Therefore, I'm glad to hear that your system is going digital. They finally accepted a digital program that someone else had to basically develop for the DFO, but it took years for them to get that accepted and approved.Earlier witnesses were talking about the need for a proper regulatory regime, and there was discussion about the difficulty in differentiating imported elvers that came into Canada from elvers that were actually caught here, that were domestically caught. Would the traceability system allow for the difference between imported and domestically caught elvers?KenMcDonaldAvalonGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1810)[English]I would just like to highlight to you that our original traceability system was developed by the industry. I sat at the table and developed that logbook in triplicate, so you can't just print a new piece of paper. Therefore, it only makes sense that I got to sit at the table to develop the digital system.Yes, I do think that the digital system would help with that, because those eels would be traced. There would be five kilograms associated with this tag number, and its movements would be tracked throughout its range in our country and on export.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1810)[English]Thank you.Mr. King, have you been sending in reports of elver poaching this year to various enforcement agencies?GennaCareyStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1810)[English]Yes, sir. We put out our trail cameras two days ago, and instantly we got pictures of people poaching elvers. There are still more to come out. For the two days we've had them out, both days I've sent emails to a long list of people to report that.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1810)[English]Has there been any response from enforcement agencies on that?StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1810)[English]The first day I got a one-word email back that said “Received”.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1810)[English]Is that all?StanleyKingStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1810)[English]That's it so far, yes, but that's more than I got last year out of 30.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89294MelArnoldMel-ArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ArnoldMel_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mel Arnold: (1810)[English]Thank you.I'm going to take a little bit of my time here to move a motion that was put on notice last week. I apologize to the witnesses, because what we're hearing from you is very important, but you are commercial fishermen.The motion reads:That, given that the carbon tax is increasing the cost of inputs for commercial fish harvesters, and that the government has committed to hiking the carbon tax on April 1st, the committee report to the House its recommendation to spike the hike, and axe the tax.I move that motion.StanleyKingKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1810)[English]Is there any discussion?Mr. Morrissey.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88308RobertMorrisseyRobert-MorrisseyEgmontLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisseyRobertJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.): (1810)[English] Mr. Chair, first of all, I have a brief comment on the motion. I respect my colleague and, quite frankly, will state on the record that this has come from the centre, from his leader's office. I don't think it has come from the member, because of the inaccuracy of the motion put forward regarding the inputs to commercial fishers. This is a propaganda piece the Conservative Party has been putting forward for a year now.Let me repeat that diesel fuel used by commercial fishers is exempt from the carbon price, as is gasoline. How, then, do you justify the comment you made on the inputs?I'm very close to the commercial fishery. In terms of the input costs, the highest one is wages, which is not subject to tax. Bait is not subject to tax. Fuel is not subject to tax. Interest on a loan is not subject to tax. Where, then, is carbon pricing impacting the inputs to commercial fisheries? The premise of your motion is totally erroneous, because it doesn't exist.However, I'll tell you one thing that does exist and that I see. I live in Atlantic Canada. I don't know about the west coast. I see the real impact of climate change that is affecting an industry that has been very beneficial to Atlantic Canadians. Like my colleague, I am the son of fishers. We were the poorest people when I grew up in our community. That's not the case today, because of a very well-managed fishery.However, something that should concern every Atlantic Canadian is the impact of climate change on these lucrative fisheries. This is something on which the Conservative Party chooses to stick its head in the sand and ignore, using motions like this that are totally erroneous. When I look at all the principal inputs to the commercial fishery, carbon pricing does not affect them.Let's take your motion to a more global extent, on shipping, because, again, it's moving product. Shipping rates and trucking rates today are equal to two years ago.KenMcDonaldAvalonRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1810)[English]I have a point of order.RobertMorrisseyEgmontRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88308RobertMorrisseyRobert-MorrisseyEgmontLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisseyRobertJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Morrissey: (1810)[English]Mr. Chair, I'm speaking to the motion that was put forward.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1810)[English]I haven't even gotten to say what my point of order is.RobertMorrisseyEgmontRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88308RobertMorrisseyRobert-MorrisseyEgmontLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisseyRobertJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Morrissey: (1815)[English]That's fair.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1815)[English]If MP Morrissey is going to speak for the next 10 or 15 minutes, I'm just wondering if we want to dismiss the witnesses. I would prefer we get back to questioning the witnesses.RobertMorrisseyEgmontRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88308RobertMorrisseyRobert-MorrisseyEgmontLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisseyRobertJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Morrissey: (1815)[English]Mr. Chair, with all due respect to the point of order—RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1815)[English]I'm just asking.RobertMorrisseyEgmontKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1815)[English]Hold on. On that point of order, there was a motion moved on the floor by Mr. Arnold.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88308RobertMorrisseyRobert-MorrisseyEgmontLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisseyRobertJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Morrissey: (1815)[English]There's no regard for the time left for the witnesses, Mr. Chair.KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1815)[English]Exactly.Also, Mr. Morrissey asked to respond to that motion, and that's exactly what he's doing.RobertMorrisseyEgmontRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88308RobertMorrisseyRobert-MorrisseyEgmontLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisseyRobertJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Morrissey: (1815)[English]Why did your colleague move a motion that was frivolous at this point in time?KenMcDonaldAvalonRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1815)[English]It's only frivolous to those who don't care about the cost of fish and the business.RobertMorrisseyEgmontKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1815)[English]Mr. Morrissey, you have the floor.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1815)[English]I would expect the Liberals to think that it's frivolous, because they are defensive and losing on the carbon tax.KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1815)[English]Mr. Perkins—RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88308RobertMorrisseyRobert-MorrisseyEgmontLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisseyRobertJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Morrissey: (1815)[English]Mr. Chair, we could have a long debate, as in the House, but let's deal with the facts as they relate to the commercial fishery. I may have some questions on carbon pricing, but nobody has disputed the fact that carbon-emitting fuels are leading to global climate change and warming. We, on the east coast, are on the front lines of that.If somebody has a pragmatic, realistic plan for slowing global climate change, which would affect every fishery here, including elvers, then let's look at that particular one. However, to table a motion at the last moment talking about the impact carbon pricing is having on the inputs to commercial fisheries.... Let's be honest about it. The fuel used in commercial fisheries, which is diesel and gasoline, is exempt—for the fourth time—and always was exempt. It's the same as it is for farmers.However, Conservatives will continue to use that phrase in the House of Commons and before committees, which is erroneous.KenMcDonaldAvalonRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1815)[English]I have a point of order.RobertMorrisseyEgmontKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1815)[English]Mr. Perkins, go ahead on your point of order.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsRickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. Margarets//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109922RickPerkinsRick-PerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsConservative CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerkinsRick_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Rick Perkins: (1815)[English]I would like to let you know that I just got a text from a fisherman who said he's not exempt from the carbon tax, so maybe you want to talk to fishermen.KenMcDonaldAvalonRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88308RobertMorrisseyRobert-MorrisseyEgmontLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorrisseyRobertJ._Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Morrissey: (1815)[English]Well, then somebody has poor accounting. There's no carbon tax on diesel fuel and gasoline used in commercial fisheries, which is the same as in farming. That is a fact. Based on that, I would call for us to adjourn the debate on this motion at this time.RickPerkinsSouth Shore—St. MargaretsKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1815)[English] There is a motion to adjourn the debate.(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)The Chair: The motion is adopted.We'll now vote on the motion from Mr. Arnold.(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway, for five minutes or less, please.RobertMorrisseyEgmontMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1820)[English]Thank you to the witnesses for coming. I've had the pleasure of talking to Mr. King, Ms. Carey, and Mr. Townsend. My condolences to you on your loss. I lost my mom in January. Those significant losses have such an impact, and then you're put in a situation like the one you're facing with respect to elvers. I just want to acknowledge that, and thank you for coming to put a face to the elver situation we find ourselves in.I want to stick to traceability for a second. We know that's an important piece in the tool box with respect to ensuring that we have a vibrant fishery. We talked with the last witnesses—and I don't know if you had a chance to hear their testimony—about the regulatory framework, and that it needed to be broad and deep.I'm wondering about the traceability aspect of it. Mr. King, I think you mentioned in previous testimony that it's not a silver bullet, but it's important. I want to give you this opportunity, because what we need is not just to hear from industry, but to follow industry's lead on things.This is for all three of you. When we look at traceability being key, can you highlight some of the other things that...? The minister's in front of you right now, and you have 30 minutes. What are the items that could help, hypothetically, this year and going forward? Can you draw upon the experiences of the Maine fishermen? My understanding of the Maine example is that they put a lot of work and effort into it, but they didn't necessarily get it right the first year. They refined it and learned from best practices, and things of that nature.I'm wondering if you could take those two items and maybe splice them together. Could you also take this opportunity for some lasting statements that you want every parliamentarian to hear? It doesn't really matter if you're Conservative, New Democrat, Bloc, or Liberal. I put all of that stuff away. Those could be the talking points from the respective cloakrooms of the parties. It's about people. It's about the resource, and it's about an industry that we hold dear.I want to give that to you.KenMcDonaldAvalonStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1820)[English] Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.What I would like to say to the minister and yourself, Mr. Kelloway, again, is that you can't take what the region tells you as fact. I've listened to many of your TV and radio interviews. To tell you that it was partly disinformation fed—through no fault of your own—by DFO would be a fact. The species is not at risk. We have a lot of data. We have 30 years of data. The best dataset in North America says that, and we can support that. DFO's own scientists say that. Conservation is out of the question. The traceability system can be implemented in less than one year. Maine did it. Was it perfect the first year? It probably wasn't, but it would definitely be good enough to save 1,100 jobs. Enforcement isn't impossible. They say, “Oh, it's 200 or 300 rivers.” No, it's about 100 rivers and it's three months long. You could do one a night and get them all done. You would see illegal fishers quickly drop off. There's no question about that.To point at Deputy Minister Gibbons' previous testimony, shutting the season down will provide no clarity. It didn't provide clarity during the last shutdown. It didn't provide the clarity in 2020. All it does is make life easier for DFO and harder for us.To comment on the Maine system, we can do traceability. Ms. Carey said she could have done it in three months if DFO had allowed us to do it, but they won't. Maine also has a huge fine system. If you get caught poaching elvers once, it's $25,000. If you get caught twice, it's mandatory jail time. In Canada, last year, there were 1,400 reports of poaching to DFO. They'll admit that people reported to them 1,400 times. They made 60 arrests. Those arrests won't even make it to 60 charges. Those charges, if they are successfully convicted, are $500, and you can rack up five or 10 of them. It's the cost of doing business.The last thing I would like to say is that DFO will not protect our long-term scientific study. We put our blood, sweat, tears and money into it. We all lost our jobs, and the first thing we said this year, after hearing this, was that we need the science to go forward. We're willing to pay the money. We're still willing to do the work, even unemployed. DFO will not help protect that study. We asked them over 30 times last year to protect the East River study from poaching so we could get the data. They wouldn't do it, but they're the first ones to point back at us and say, “Oh, the science study didn't run last year so, you know, we'd better be cautious, because we don't have the data to support that the industry is sustainable.” They're playing both sides of the fence.I apologize for taking up so much time, but that's what I would like to point out.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1825)[English]I don't know how much time I have left.StanleyKingKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1825)[English]You have none left.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoMikeKellowayCape Breton—Canso//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104531MikeKellowayMike-KellowayCape Breton—CansoLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellowayMike_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Kelloway: (1825)[English]Okay. Thank you.KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1825)[English]Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.Before I go to Madame Desbiens, I'd like to welcome Mr. Généreux, who is here to fill in for Mr. Perkins. I will say that I hope he's on my shooting team again at Stittsville Shooting Ranges. I hope he brings his son along. We won first place last year because of those two gentlemen.Madame Desbiens, you have two and a half minutes or less.MikeKellowayCape Breton—CansoCarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—Charlevoix//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104715CarolineDesbiensCaroline-DesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesbiensCaroline_BQ.jpgInterventionMrs. Caroline Desbiens: (1825)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'm very troubled by what you're saying about how little interest there is in saving this fishery. It's like they don't care. It's like a hot potato everyone is passing on. That's deplorable.I wonder if we should invite you to testify in the presence of DFO representatives. I don't know if that can happen. I'm trying to think of a solution.The department isn't listening to you or doesn't seem to be listening to you, so I'm looking for a way to get your message across. The committee can send that message. I think everyone heard it loud and clear, and Mr. Kelloway said it in a non-partisan way.You speak for 1,100 fishers. How many of you have no income right now? I just want to get a sense. Employment insurance is one thing, but are all those people unemployed?KenMcDonaldAvalonGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1825)[English] Yes, I believe that, for those folks who are employed in this industry, as Zach can attest to, employment insurance has run out at this point. There's nothing to fall back on. They are looking to get new jobs. Some of my employees have scrambled and have found some—certainly not replacement employment, but something to allow them to feed their families. Others have not, and they're not sure what they're going to do. As we said, it's such a tough economic time. The loss of any job is felt deeply in small communities. Do you have anything to add to that?CarolineDesbiensBeauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d'Orléans—CharlevoixZacharyTownsendZacharyTownsendZachary-TownsendInterventionMr. Zachary Townsend: (1825)[English]I would just add that, after last year, there were so many people hurting because the fishery was shut down after two weeks. I want to add to the point that many people were barely able to get through to this year because of that shutdown. They've shut this fishery down three times in five years, which, in my opinion, would be considered a catastrophe anywhere, a failure of government, would it not?I want to communicate the rage that so many of my colleagues feel. They wonder why it is a prerequisite that they lose their jobs for DFO to do its job. Why do we need to lose our jobs in order for DFO to enforce the law?Thank you. I'm sorry for getting emotional.GennaCareyKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1825)[English]That's no problem.Thank you, Madame Desbiens. Unfortunately, Ms. Barron, that chews up our three hours of committee business today. We're at the 6:30 point, and our witnesses have been here and have been generous with their time. ZacharyTownsendLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1830)[English]Mr. Chair, can I ask for unanimous consent to be able to take my two and a half minutes of questions? Is that an option?KenMcDonaldAvalonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1830)[English]All right.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithCliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/109867CliffordSmallClifford-SmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameConservative CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SmallClifford_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Clifford Small: (1830)[English]I'm going to ask her a question before I give my consent. Ms. Barron, is that an “I love oil and gas” badge that's over there on your bulletin board over your right shoulder?Some hon. members: Oh, oh!A voice: I think that's fake news, Cliff.Ms. Lisa Marie Barron: It says, “I love my library”. The Chair: For that comment, he'll have to owe you another couple of minutes at the next meeting.Go ahead, Ms. Barron.KenMcDonaldAvalonLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1830)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. In case it wasn't heard, my button says, “I love my library”, which is a very important differentiation to make there.Thank you to the witnesses. Thank you to the committee for allowing me to quickly ask my questions. I want to ask Mr. King first if he can please clarify something. You talked about shipping directly out of the country, and I believe that was related to the mixing of illegal and legal elvers. Can you clarify that? The point wasn't finished.CliffordSmallCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameStanleyKingStanleyKingStanley-KingInterventionMr. Stanley King: (1830)[English]Sure, thank you. I'll go as quickly as I can. Some seafood companies will buy our product in Canada, and then they will ship it to, say, Toronto and hold it there for a few days before ultimately shipping it to an Asian destination. In that intermediate time, they can mix our product—and I think they have—with black market elvers. If the industry as a whole agreed not to sell to anybody domestically and instead sell directly to overseas markets—if we ship them ourselves and put them on the plane—we would know that there was no black market mixing going on. It's a simple solution.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithLisa MarieBarronNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111023Lisa MarieBarronLisaMarie-BarronNanaimo—LadysmithNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarronLisaMarie_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lisa Marie Barron: (1830)[English]Thank you. The last question I'm going to ask before I get cut off is for Ms. Carey. To clarify, when you made calls about violence as a result of the elver harvesting and everything that we've been talking about, you were told that the RCMP does not respond to elver calls. I believe those are the exact words you used. Has there been any follow-up information provided, any resources or any additional information that you might want to add to that point?StanleyKingGennaCareyGennaCareyGenna-CareyInterventionMs. Genna Carey: (1830)[English]Sure. I can say that, in chats with enforcement and Tim Kerr himself, I made known some issues in reporting. There's a 1-800 number you can call, which is another incident that I didn't even tell you about. You start at your local detachment, and nobody answers, so you phone the 1-800 number, and it rings and rings, and nobody answers. Then you phone back, and you're redirected to an RCMP switchboard, where they didn't know they were going to be receiving this call in the first place, and then they redirect you because they don't take fisheries or elver calls, and you're left with nothing. I can say that, on more than one, two, three, even four occasions that I have phoned RCMP and DFO with no response to concerns, I have made it known in writing that the systems provided to us, those 1-800 numbers or the detachment numbers, are not working.Lisa MarieBarronNanaimo—LadysmithKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1830)[English] Thank you, Ms. Barron. You've gone a little bit over, but not bad. I want to say a special thank you to Ms. Carey, Mr. King and Mr. Townsend for appearing before the committee today on this important study and for sharing their knowledge and experience with the committee as we look forward to writing a report to present in the House of Commons. With that, I'll say thank you to our interpreters, our staff and the people who made this meeting possible. I wish everybody a good evening.The meeting is adjourned.GennaCarey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. John Brassard (Barrie—Innisfil, CPC)): (1100)[English] I call this meeting to order. Good morning, everyone.[Translation]Welcome to meeting No. 108 of the House of Commons of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 30, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the decision of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to not pursue a criminal investigation in relation to the SNC-Lavalin affair.[English]Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. As a reminder to all who are participating, make sure you keep the earpieces away from the microphones in order to avoid potential injury to our interpreters.I'd now like to welcome our witness for today, Mr. Michael Wernick, formerly Clerk of the Privy Council and currently Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management at the University of Ottawa. Before we begin, I will ask again for unanimous consent to reset the clock at the top of the hour to give the opportunity to our Bloc and NDP members for six minutes of questioning.Do I have unanimous consent on that?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Thank you.First of all, Mr. Wernick, I want to welcome you to committee. I understand that you do not have an opening statement today, so we will go right to questions.Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes. Go ahead.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett (Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC): (1100)[English] Sir, has the RCMP contacted you regarding Justin Trudeau's role in the SNC-Lavalin scandal?Chair, his response was not audible.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1100)[English]Yes.Mr. Wernick, I'm sorry. You'll have to unmute. There you go.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick (Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual): (1100)[English]I'm sorry. It's the usual Zoom mute-unmute.I did hear the question, sir. No, they have not.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]But you were interviewed for the Ethics Commissioner's report, the “Trudeau II Report”, on the SNC-Lavalin scandal. Is that correct?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]Yes. I retired in April 2019, the Easter weekend. I was interviewed one time by the commissioner in the preparation of the report. I was interviewed by the RCMP that summer about the lobbying activities of principals of SNC-Lavalin.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]Did you have any further contact with the RCMP with respect to SNC-Lavalin following that interview in 2019?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]Never prior and never after that.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]Did the RCMP ask you any questions dealing with Justin Trudeau?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]That was five years ago. I do not remember the flow of the interview. We basically went over the material that you will see in the commissioner's report.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]You don't remember if the Prime Minister's name was said by the RCMP. I can tell you that as part of complaints that I've filed with the RCMP, I have been interviewed by them. It was years ago, and I remember very distinctly how that interview went. I certainly would remember if the Prime Minister's name was mentioned. It was, I can tell you, in my case.Was the Prime Minister's name mentioned—was a question asked of you about Prime Minister Justin Trudeau—when you were questioned by the RCMP?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]The interview took the form of going through the chronology of events—who met with whom, who spoke with whom, who communicated with whom and so on. So yes, the role of the Prime Minister came up, because I was in contact with the Prime Minister during that period when I was clerk.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]The question of obstruction of justice, which is a criminal offence, was raised with respect to the Prime Minister's involvement in the SNC-Lavalin scandal. These are, of course, events in which you were involved. Most Canadians would have expected that you would have been interviewed on that subject. Do you think you should have been interviewed in the RCMP's pursuits with respect to obstruction of justice concerns or allegations about Prime Minister Justin Trudeau?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]I have no view on that, Mr. Cooper. It's up to the police whom they decide to interview.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]Thank you very much. My esteemed colleague Mr. Cooper will have questions for you later. I'm Michael Barrett. I did have the opportunity to ask you questions when you appeared at the justice committee about the SNC-Lavalin scandal. I'm glad we have you here today as well.Do you have any view on who the RCMP should have interviewed? We have a list of who the Ethics Commissioner interviewed and we know who the RCMP interviewed, but those lists aren't the same. Justin Trudeau, Katie Telford, Gerry Butts—do you think they should have been interviewed to exonerate the Prime Minister?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English] I have no view on whom the police should choose to interview. Not every issue of ethics or behaviour rises to the level of a preliminary investigation, fact-finding or examination. Not all of those move on to a full investigation in the terms that journalists and politicians use them. These are decisions to be made by the police and by the prosecutorial service.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]We know that the Prime Minister broke the law. It's a matter of public record that he broke the Conflict of Interest Act. There was a finding of that by the Ethics Commissioner. We know there's a big gap in the RCMP's work. It's very curious how that came to pass.If the RCMP were to pursue an investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, would you fully co-operate?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]Of course.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]If another law enforcement agency—the Ontario Provincial Police, for example—were to undertake an investigation into the SNC-Lavalin scandal, would you fully co-operate?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]Of course.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]Do you possess any documents related to the SNC-Lavalin scandal or the deferred prosecution agreement?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]No. I left government in April 2019—five years ago.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]The question wasn't when you left government. That's the second time you've offered us that date. The question was about you having the documents.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]I have no documents.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1105)[English]Why did Justin Trudeau go to such great lengths to pursue a deferred prosecution agreement for his friends at SNC-Lavalin?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1105)[English]I have nothing to add to my testimony at the justice committee five years ago.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1110)[English]You have nothing to add. There was no rationale. If I were to say it was to help out a Liberal-friendly firm, you have nothing to add to that?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1110)[English]I gave my testimony at two meetings of the justice committee two Parliaments ago and that's my account of events.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1110)[English]The history is quite clear that there was not a case made. We've, of course, heard the now-famous recording of you and the then-attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould when you claimed, without any evidence and without any substantiation—it's yet to be provided—that it was about jobs. We know that it was never about jobs. It was, in fact, about politics.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[English]Thank you, Mr. Barrett. That concludes your six-minute round.Ms. Damoff, you have six minutes. Please go ahead.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff (Oakville North—Burlington, Lib.): (1110)[English]Thank you, Chair.Mr. Wernick, thank you for being here today on something that I really question, which is, given that you left government five years ago, what you can add to a police investigation, quite frankly.I served as parliamentary secretary at public safety for a few years. I also served on the public safety committee for eight years. One thing that always struck me was the importance of the separation of the political arm from police investigations. We look at countries around the world where politicians dictate what police do. We don't want to emulate those countries, yet we are constantly hearing from the opposition and also on social media that somehow we as politicians should be telling police what they should and should not investigate, and who they should talk to. Would you feel comfortable talking in general terms about the importance of that separation—that police investigations are independent of the political arm of the government?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1110)[English]Certainly. That is my wheelhouse these days—governance and public administration. I've written a book on the tradecraft of politics.To the premise of your question, in a free, democratic society, it's very important that the justice system operate independently. That includes the police, the prosecutorial service and the courts. Parliament—you—create the framework of laws within which they operate, but in terms of their actual practice of investigations, arrests and prosecutions, those should be conducted fully independently.PamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff: (1110)[English]What happens if politicians stick their fingers in and start directing the police?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1110)[English]Then you're not in a full democracy. You're in a sort of quasi-authoritarian society, like you see around the world. You can see pressure being put on politicians. This is common practice in the United States Congress, where you're seeing hearings where prosecutors, police officials and law enforcement officials are being hauled before congressional committees in the United States. I think that's a form of pressure and intimidation on the law enforcement system.PamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff: (1110)[English] Thank you.I remember your testimony back in 2019 at justice committee. At the time, we had been doing Bill C-71 at the public safety committee. As someone who's advocated quite vocally for gun control, I became the target, and have been for a number of years, of the gun lobby, which has included threats, memes and all kinds of things on what I think you called “the vomitorium of social media”.I still remember that testimony, and thinking how accurate it was. Since that time it's only gotten worse—quite a bit worse, actually. Recently Mr. Barrett posted a video on social media with all of our email addresses, inviting people to contact us about trying to shut down an investigation of the RCMP. As a result, my staff had to open a subfolder in my inbox and labelled it "misogyny", because of the horrific emails and messages I was getting on social media.Do you have any thoughts on the direction in which our country has gone in the last few years? I've been called a traitor; I've been told that the government is corrupt. I often say to people to take a look at Afghanistan, take a look at what's going on in the Middle East right now if you actually want to see countries where there are terrorists running a country, as in Gaza. You have Afghanistan, where women and girls have no rights at all. It really troubles me when people are making comparisons with other countries around the world like Russia—comparing Canada with that.Your comments then have been proven correct, Mr. Wernick. Unfortunately, I've been a target of all of those kinds of comments. Do you have any comment as to how we can try to get back to a more civilized discussion on issues?C-71, An Act to amend certain Acts and Regulations in relation to firearmsMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1115)[English]I think the chair will rein us in as being off topic at today's hearing. I would say that I've given plenty of interviews and have podcasts about this topic, and you can find all of my output as a professor on my LinkedIn feed.PamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff: (1115)[English]Okay. Thank you. Maybe we'll get back to the RCMP, which you're right is the topic of why you're here.I have only about 45 seconds left. Is there anything that you wanted to add on the importance of the separation of the police, or have we covered it all?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1115)[English]I think I've said that. What I would point out to you parliamentarians is that there are issues of ethics and behaviour and conduct that do not rise to the law of criminal penalties.That is why you—Parliament—created other laws and other independent bodies to deal with them. That is why you—Parliament—created the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner and the Commissioner of Lobbying, and allocated about $25 million to those three bodies. Sometimes those bodies complete a case and refer an issue to the police; most of the time they do not.PamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff: (1115)[English]Thank you very much.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1115)[English]Thank you, Ms, Damoff.Just before we go to Mr. Villemure, I just want to clarify something. At the opening of your comments, you mentioned something to the effect that you didn't know why Mr. Wernick was here.I just want to remind committee members that on October 30, a motion was passed by unanimous consent to have the RCMP commissioner, Mr. Pincince, the Ethics Commissioner, the former ethics commissioner, and Mr. Wernick appear before committee. That is why he is here today.I thank you, Mr. Wernick, for coming before committee.[Translation]Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.PamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure (Trois-Rivières, BQ): (1115)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Mr. Wernick, good morning. Earlier, you explained to us all the aspects of this matter in which you were not involved, and I just want to know what your role was. In which aspects of this matter did you take part?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1115)[Translation]So, as I said, I appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights five years ago. There are four hours of testimony on the matter. I testified before the Commissioner, as well. I explained everything to the Commissioner and to another parliamentary committee.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1115)[Translation]Forgive me, but I was not there four years ago. So, could you refresh my memory, please?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1115)[Translation]I was the Clerk of the Privy Council, meaning the deputy minister to the Prime Minister, until Easter weekend, five years ago.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1115)[Translation]In the story about Ms. Wilson‑Raybould, SNC-Lavalin and the Prime Minister, what was your role at the time? I am not asking about your function, because I understand that. Rather, I am asking you about your participation in that situation. MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1115)[Translation]It’s very thoroughly outlined in the report of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1115)[Translation]Very well.The Commissioner concluded that there was a breach of the Conflict of Interest Act. For its part, The Royal Canadian Mounted Police decided not to conduct an investigation because it considered that no offence was committed under the Criminal Code. Is that correct?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1115)[Translation]That is what I understood.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1115)[Translation]Since you were the Clerk of the Privy Council, and given the position you now hold, I would like you to confirm something for me: do you think a situation can be both unethical and legal?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1115)[Translation]The Parliament of Canada created several pieces of legislation. As I said, some legislation governs ethics and conflicts of interest. For instance, there’s the famous Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act and the Lobbying Act, to name a few. Other legislation provides for offences arising from unethical behaviour, but those offences do not necessarily fall under criminal law.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1115)[Translation]I see.It is therefore possible to breach the code of ethics without necessarily violating the Criminal Code, right?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1115)[Translation]That was the Commissioner’s conclusion.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1115)[Translation]That’s perfect. Thank you very much.Tell me about cabinet confidence. Is it well defined? The RCMP Commissioner told us it depended somewhat on the person interpreting cabinet confidence. We asked Mr. Pincince the same question and, in some cases, there was more access to information, whereas in others there was less access. There does not seem to be a solid, bulletproof definition. Could you tell us a bit more about that, please?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[Translation]I did not understand your question. What subject are you asking about?RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1120)[Translation]Could you describe the parameters of cabinet confidence to us, because during their testimony, the RCMP Commissioner and Mr. Pincince told us that it was not always a yes or no question. In other words, some areas were unclear. In your opinion, where does cabinet confidence start, and where does it end?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[Translation]You’re asking me a broad question on a complex subject.In general, it is very important for the governance of this country, meaning the federal government’s model and that of the provinces, to ensure the confidentiality of discussions, of conversations, in the cabinet meeting room, whether they occur in person or in hybrid format. Several decisions by the Supreme Court of Canada recognize this basic principle.The role of the Clerk of the Privy Council is long-standing. It has existed for 800 years. The exact role is to be the guardian of discussions, documents and processes of the Council of Ministers. He or she is the Secretary to the Cabinet and the Clerk of the Privy Council. One of the Clerk’s responsibilities, among several, is to keep documents in-house and protect the confidentiality of Cabinet conversations and, correspondingly, the Privy Council’s confidence. The Clerk is the guardian of the Cabinet’s documents. I exercised some discretion in granting access to documents or discussions to the courts and the Commissioner, among others.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1120)[Translation]During your mandate as Clerk, was cabinet confidence very well defined, or did it tend to be assessed on a case-by-case basis?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[Translation]Are you referring to disclosure and redaction of documents?RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1120)[Translation]Yes.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[Translation]It was assessed case by case.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1120)[Translation]It was therefore possible to disclose information more broadly on certain subjects or, on the contrary, to decide that relevant information fell directly under cabinet confidence, right?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[Translation]Yes. In R. v. Norman, I gave the judge full access to the documents, because a court and a judge oversaw the process.In other cases, it is possible to disclose part of the documents by redacting certain passages, meaning by not disclosing names or certain elements…RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1120)[Translation]Excuse me for interrupting you, but my speaking time is limited.Why, in this case, was no information disclosed?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[Translation]I am not the one who made that decision. It was my successor, after I left.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1120)[Translation]I see.Thank you very much, Mr. Wernick.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Villemure.[English] Mr. Green, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green (Hamilton Centre, NDP): (1120)[English] Thank you very much.On the topic of cabinet confidence, you'd mentioned that it's a long-standing convention. Is that correct in how you framed it?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[English]It's about eight centuries' worth, yes.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1120)[English]How does a convention compare with the laws and principles of parliamentary privilege as it relates to our ability to send for documents and evidence?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[English]There's a role for the clerk, which is defined in the Canada Evidence Act, and there are often disputes between Parliament and the executive about the release of documents. You may recall issues around Afghan detainees years ago, and so on, so it's always a case by case. It's not an absolute principle. You do not have the right to ask for my medical records or my tax returns and so on.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1120)[English]To be clear, sir, as it relates to a convention—MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[English]Yes.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1120)[English]—as I'm to understand, and forgive me for having notes to better refresh my memory or cite the actual laws, but when we were constituted we carried with us the Westminster system from the U.K. and the supremacy of parliamentary privilege supersedes conventions. Conventions are agreements among parliamentarians, but parliamentary privilege is actually supreme when it comes to the conventions of our abilities in our Standing Orders as it relates to standing committees to send for documents, evidence and witnesses.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1120)[English]No, that's your interpretation, and I know it's the interpretation of the law clerks of the House. It's not an interpretation I agree with or that the courts have always agreed with.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1120)[English]Then who has primacy over the House of Commons? Is it the courts and the clerk, or the members of Parliament?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]It's not a question of primacy of one or the other. We have a legislative branch, an executive branch and a judiciary, and there's tension among the three all the time.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]Then within that, in their appearance before the committee, the RCMP commissioner noted about cabinet confidences that cabinet confidence is there for a reason. I think the interpretation of cabinet confidence, as we discussed earlier, sometimes differs from one person to another. You just mentioned that you think that's my interpretation, that you have a different one, and the Supreme Court says that cabinet confidentiality is protected as a matter of constitutional convention, which is what you just referenced, or the rules of behaviour established by the government institutions that are not enforced by the courts, but are considered binding by those who operate the Constitution.The people who operate the Constitution are the members of Parliament.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]And the police, and the prosecutors, and the executive part of government. This is a principle that's binding on all branches of government.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]Do you think cabinet confidentiality should be further waived in the context of investigations conducted by the RCMP, or should this notion of client-solicitor privilege, where the government is both the client and the solicitor, provide them a shield from any kind of oversight for criminal accountability?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]It's never that black or white. I think the onus should be to disclose as much as possible to formal legal processes like the police and the courts, but there may always be cases where redaction is appropriate.We're having a discussion now about the divulgation of documents involving Chinese intelligence activities within Canada. It would be a very bad idea to simply turn over all the documentation without redaction.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]Who decides what's redacted?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]The clerk has a role in deciding what cabinet confidences are released, on a case-by-case basis.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]Who else has roles?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]Legal advice to the clerk.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]Does the cabinet have a role?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]No, absolutely none.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]Does the Prime Minister?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]No.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]In no cases or situations does the cabinet or Prime Minister decide what is and isn't redacted?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]If you go back to a previous government, then the previous prime ministers have a role in whether to release documents of their ministry. Basically, you sequester the papers of each government when it leaves.I went back to Prime Minister Harper a couple of times to get his consent to release documents related to the Norman affair because it had happened while he was in office, so he gave that agreement and we turned over the documents to the clerk.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]Would that also carry by the same logic that Prime Minister Trudeau could waive cabinet confidence at any time, despite recommendations by the clerk and by legal advisers?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]It's a discussion between the clerk and the Prime Minister. Ultimately, it is the clerk's job.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]To make the final decision?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]Yes.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]Is there ever a situation where staff well below the clerk can make decisions on what redactions are done?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]There would be advice from lawyers and from people like the security intelligence people as to whether redactions were appropriate or not. I always took the view to disclose as much as possible, but you wouldn't want to disclose business confidences or intelligence services or personal names and so on. It's very similar to the process on access to information.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English] In your experience, in your years, just to recap.... Forgive me for not being as familiar with this, as your LinkedIn profile might indicate, but how many years were you in government?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]I was in government for 38 years, 17 years as a deputy minister.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]In that time, did you see a trend towards more cabinet confidences or fewer cabinet confidences? Is this a government that was transparent by default, or did it tend to have more instances where it declared a greater volume of work to be in cabinet confidence?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1125)[English]I'm not a historian. However, I think the trend line was to be for more disclosure. There was a running discussion between the Auditor General of Canada and the executive about the disclosure of documents related to the budget. I reached an agreement with the Auditor General at the time, Michael Ferguson, and I increased the disclosure of analysis documents related to the budget to the Auditor General.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1125)[English]I believe that's my time.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]That is, Mr. Green. Thank you.That completes our first round of questioning.[Translation]We are now moving on to the second round.Mr. Berthold, you have the floor for five minutes.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC): (1125)[Translation]Thank you.Hello, Mr. Wernick.When did you find out that SNC‑Lavalin was being investigated for illegal lobbying?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1130)[Translation]I don’t remember.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]When was your interview with the RCMP on that matter?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1130)[Translation]During the summer, after my departure at Easter. I think the report was tabled during the month of August. The meeting probably occurred during the month of July, but I am not sure of the date.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]After your interview with investigators, who did you think was targeted by the RCMP investigation?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1130)[Translation]I don’t know. They asked me a series of questions about the timing of SNC‑Lavalin’s lobbying and political activities, as well as its representatives.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]Did they ask questions about any ministers in particular?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1130)[Translation]No. During my interview with the RCMP, the issue was not ministers’ behaviour, but that of SNC‑Lavalin.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]It remains that, in an illegal lobbying case, people subject to the Conflict of Interest Act are the usual targets.During your last appearance before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, in March 2019, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner had not yet completed the investigation. He later recognized that the Prime Minister was guilty of violating the Act, even though he was denied access to several Cabinet documents during his investigation. He concluded the following:[351] […] The actions that sought to further these interests were improper since the actions were contrary to the constitutional principles of prosecutorial independence and the rule of law.[352] […] Therefore, I find that Mr. Trudeau contravened section 9 of the Act.In March 2019, at the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, you said the following about Minister Wilson‑Raybould:So I repeat my contention that the Minister experienced lawful advocacy to consider doing something lawful in the public interest. Do you stand by that statement, now that you know the Prime Minister was found guilty of violating the Act?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1130)[Translation]Excuse me, but I missed the question.If I understood correctly, the Commissioner’s conclusion was that there had been a violation of a provision of the Act…LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]It was section 9, Mr. Wernick. During your testimony, you clearly stated that the minister experienced lawful advocacy. However, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner concluded the opposite.The purpose of this study is to shed light on the RCMP’s decision to prematurely end its criminal investigation of the Prime Minister. The Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner question do. Regarding the SNC‑Lavalin investigation, you said earlier that the RCMP did not question you about the Prime Minister’s criminal involvement in the matter.During your testimony, you said the following:As has the former minister, I have sought legal advice about what I can and cannot say today, and I’ve been advised not to opine on the minister’s reasoning or state of mind, because some of the issues are or will be before the courts.Since the RCMP decided to end its investigation, I would like you to tell us which points you were unable to reveal at the time.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1130)[Translation]I have no idea. It was five years ago.I would add, however, that during the month of August 2019, Ms. Wilson‑Raybould clearly stated before the committee and during an interview with the media that she did not think it was criminal activity.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]Mr. Wernick, you have a choice to make. The public is getting impatient. You have the opportunity to shed light on the potentially criminal involvement of the Prime Minister or to keep that information to yourself. You can say that you do not remember the facts. That is entirely your choice. Your entire career will be judged based on the answers you give to people.Why did you try to influence the attorney general to intervene so as to avoid criminal proceedings against SNC‑Lavalin?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1130)[Translation]I have nothing to add to what I already said to the Standing Committee on Justice five years ago and what I said to the Commissioner during the summer of 2019.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]Do you think my question is threatening?MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[Translation]Is that a question for Mr. Wernick, Mr. Berthold?LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]Yes.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[Translation]Repeat the question, please.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]Mr. Wernick, did you find the question I asked you threatening, when I said that your answers were going to determine how your entire career would be judged?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1130)[Translation]No, not at all. It's not up to me to judge it.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1130)[Translation]When the Prime Minister sends the Clerk of the Privy Council, his most highly ranked official, to question a minister and have a conversation with her, she knows that the Prime Minister is the one who has the right of life and death over the future of her career. Do you think it was normal for Minister Jody Wilson‑Raybould to feel threatened by the way you alluded to the Prime Minister during your conversation with her? There was a lot of subtext.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[Translation]Give a very brief answer, please.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1135)[Translation]The Commissioner's report provides a full interpretation of it all.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Berthold.MichaelWernickAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.): (1135)[English] Mr. Chair, I just want to personally note that I thought you sent me a very kind note yesterday and I just want to thank you for that.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]In the spirit of former prime minister Mulroney, yes, I did send that note. AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1135)[English]Mr. Wernick, thank you for being here. I think it is déjà vu for both of us to have Mr. Cooper, Mr. Barrett and me ask you questions. I really appreciate your being here. Can I start by asking if you were involved in any way in the decision of the RCMP to close the investigation?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1135)[English]I've had no contact ever with the RCMP about any investigation or operations. AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1135)[English]Mr. Wernick, were you involved in any way in the interactions between the RCMP and the Privy Council Office related to the request by the RCMP to waive cabinet confidences, or, as you had said you left in April 2019, were you no longer there?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1135)[English]Before I left, I recused myself from any discussions and decisions about the divulgation or keeping of documents. As soon as I was invited to the justice committee I ordered that a hold on retention be put on all documents in the possession of the Privy Council Office and I turned over all of those issues about redaction and divulgation to my deputy clerk. Then, of course, I left in mid-April and after that it would have been a matter for my successor. AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1135)[English]All right. As I understand, then, in terms of interactions with the RCMP about cabinet confidences, you had nothing whatsoever to do with that. Is that right?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1135)[English]I had no conversations with the RCMP about any aspect of the SNC-Lavalin matter, except, as I said, interviewing about SNC's lobbying activities. AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1135)[English]I understand.Basically, you really have nothing much to say about the RCMP's investigation because, of course, you would have no personal knowledge of it. I also understand that the committee, the clerk and the chair properly invited you, but I also don't quite understand why you're here.However, while you are here, can I ask another question that I've been curious about? I believe this was before you came to the justice committee, so you would perhaps have been involved. When the Privy Council Office originally determined whether or not there would be a waiver of cabinet confidence to permit Ms. Wilson-Raybould to testify, was that the largest waiver of cabinet confidence ever when she was permitted to divulge matters to the justice committee? Would others be within a certain scope?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1135)[English]I'm not sure I can answer that authoritatively. There were two large ones that I was aware of when I was clerk. One was to the Norman trial and the other was the waiver for the Attorney General. AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1135)[English]I know Mr. Green got into this, but what would be the considerations you would give in terms of determining, at the Privy Council Office, whether or not to grant such a waiver? How would you balance public interest versus confidentiality, etc.?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1135)[English]There is a public interest in the confidentiality of cabinet discussions. It's how we make cabinet work, so there is a large public interest in maintaining the convention and the practice of cabinet confidentiality. There may be a specific public interest in an inquiry, a trial, criminal proceedings or something like that, so that's the judgment that has to be exercised about weighing one public interest against another public interest. AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1135)[English] Would it be different when you have a request from a police force doing an investigation versus some other type of request such as a request from a committee of Parliament or a request from somebody else?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1135)[English]I think there would be a little bit of judgment in terms of whether the information would be kept in confidence by the person receiving it and what they would do with it. There's a very structured process by a commission of inquiry like the one that's under way now. There's a very structured process if you give it to the courts, and the courts operate under various laws and practices, and there are practices by parliamentary committees. Then there's just public disclosure, putting stuff out on the Internet.Yes, it would certainly have some bearing on what would happen to the documents if they were used. I always took the principle to disclose as much as possible if it were for part of the justice system, courts, officers of Parliament, tribunals, investigations, commissions of inquiry and so on. AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1140)[English]I appreciate that.Am I done, Mr. Chair?MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[English]You have three seconds, Mr. Housefather.AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Anthony Housefather: (1140)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I cede it, so Mr. Cooper or whoever's next gets it.[Translation]I could give the three seconds left of my time to Mr. Villemure.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[Translation]I gave a little more time to Mr. Berthold, but it was only about 20 seconds.Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1140)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Wernick, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I want to remind you that constantly referring to a five-year-old report by the justice committee, providing evasive answers, or saying that you don't remember, is not sufficient for this committee.I'd like to ask you the following question. The conversation between you and Ms. Wilson‑Raybould was recorded and transcribed, and I will now loosely translate some of what you said. You specifically said that you believed the Prime Minister was not asking her to do anything appropriate or interfere. He simply asked her to use all the tools she lawfully had at her disposal. That is what you said and I'd like your comments on it.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1140)[Translation]You have the Commissioner's interpretation of it all.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1140)[Translation]Yes, but I would like your answer.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1140)[Translation]I have nothing to add.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1140)[Translation]That is not acceptable.I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[Translation]Wait one second, Mr. Villemure.[English]Mr. Wernick, you're an experienced government employee. You understand that your appearance before committee is protected by parliamentary privilege. Members have privilege to ask questions, and they expect that they're going to be directly answered. My expectation as the chair of this committee, Mr. Wernick, is that you're going to answer those questions.[Translation]Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for one minute and 45 seconds.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1140)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Wernick, as I said earlier, you told Ms. Wilson‑Raybould that the Prime Minister was not asking her to do anything illegal, just to use all the tools at her disposal. When we read the transcript of the conversation, we see that there is some hesitation or, at the very least, something you left unspoken. I would like your comments on that conversation and what was left unspoken.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1140)[Translation]What aspect should I comment on? What is the question?RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1140)[Translation]You said you did not believe the Prime Minister asked her to do anything appropriate or to interfere; he was just asking her to use all the tools she lawfully had at her disposal. You let it be understood that “something” had to be done. What did you mean by “something”. MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1140)[Translation]I don't know.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresRenéVillemureTrois-Rivières//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1140)[Translation]I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Villemure.[English]We're going now to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1140)[English]Thank you very much. I'm just going to pick up on that.I wasn't around, obviously, when this happened, and certainly the Honourable Murray Rankin, Charlie and others from my caucus likely would have dealt with this.Help me get a sense of when the telephone conversation happens between you and the former attorney general and you say that the prime minister's in a kind of a mood, and there's an assertion that he wanted her to shelve the prosecution, and it is said, “He's in a pretty firm frame of mind about this, so I'm a bit worried.”What would you be worried about? This is your language from the recorded conversation.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1140)[English]Yes, you're asking me to dredge up memories from five years ago, and I gave my testimony on all of this to the justice committee and to the commissioner. To the best of my recollection, this was an issue about the minister's role as a member of cabinet and the cabinet as a team.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1140)[English] I have a point of order, Chair.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[English]Hang on a second, Mr. Wernick.Mr. Barrett, go ahead on your point of order, please.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1140)[English]Chair, you intervened in the previous round with very clear expectations about what's supposed to happen. Mr. Green's question to the witness was very straightforward and the witness is now saying that he gave testimony about something that hadn't happened at the time. When he came before the justice committee, the recording that Mr. Green is referencing hadn't yet been released. Mr. Wernick didn't know he'd been caught.The expectation of the committee is, of course, as you said, that the witness is going to answer the questions and not simply say, “I've answered that question before.”However, Chair, for your consideration, of course committee can formally order that the witness answer the questions. If he refuses, then it is a violation of this committee's privilege, which would need to be reported to the House.I don't think it needs to come to that, but I just think that perhaps one more urging and an opportunity for Mr. Green to restate his question so that we can get an actual answer from the witness....JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]Thank you for that intervention, Mr. Barrett.That is a valid point of order.Mr. Wernick, I am now starting to get into one of those moods that you spoke of with the Prime Minister. I'm asking you to answer the questions directly.Mr. Green, I'm not going to restart your clock. I'm going to ask you to restate your question and the expectation of this committee, Mr. Wernick—because they do have privilege to ask these questions—is for you to answer them.Mr. Green, go ahead. I'm going to give you as much time as you need.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1145)[English]Thank you very much.This was referring to the December 19, 2018 conversation that had been recorded when you told Ms. Wilson-Raybould that Mr. Trudeau was in a kind of a mood and, in her words, wanted to shelve the prosecution of the Montreal-based engineering firm.These are your words as recorded and distributed: “He's in a pretty firm frame of mind about this though, so I'm a bit worried”. You then went on to say, “I am worried about a collision then because he's pretty firm about this. I just saw him a few hours ago and this is really important to him”.I raise that, sir, because in the context of previous testimony that you just provided this committee, you talked about feeling intimidated—maybe not you feeling intimidated, but about where that line could be crossed.However, as was mentioned earlier, when you are sent as a messenger from the Prime Minister's Office and talk about a mood and about a collision course.... What did you mean by that?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1145)[English]First of all, I'm trying my best to respond to the questions and reconstruct a sequence of events.I apologize to the members if I have events of five years out of sequence and if my testimony, which happened twice, was before or after other events. I don't have the chronology clear in my head. If I mixed it up, I apologize to the committee.You're talking, I presume, about my first appearance at the justice committee, or are you talking about the...?MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1145)[English]I'm talking about the recording that came out.I would say that it's a lot easier for you to operate in this committee if you just answer the questions. Then you don't have to think about what you did and you don't have to think about timelines.Just answering—MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1145)[English]Actually, the timelines matter to the answers, so yes, I do want to know the sequence of events.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1145)[English]It was December 19, 2018.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1145)[English]Right, and that conversation was available to the commissioner, so I'm not sure what your question is still. I'm trying to answer it, but what is your question?MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1145)[English]You said the Prime Minister was in kind of a mood and that the Attorney General was on a collision course.I'm going to put to you, sir, that it sounds like a threat. When you say that you arrived from meeting him a few hours ago and you came to her with that message, that sounds like a threat.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1145)[English]It certainly was not intended as a threat and it's not the interpretation of the commissioner.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMatthewGreenHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/93023MatthewGreenMatthew-GreenHamilton CentreNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GreenMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Green: (1145)[English]Those are my questions.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]Thank you, Mr. Green.Mr. Cooper, you have five minutes.Go ahead.MatthewGreenHamilton CentreMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper (St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC): (1145)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Mr. Wernick.Two days before Jody Wilson-Raybould testified before the justice committee, you drafted Order in Council 2019-0105, which partially waived cabinet confidentiality.Is that correct?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1145)[English]No. I had left all the issues about cabinet confidences and divulgation to the deputy clerk, so she would have supervised the drafting of it. It's possible that I signed it off as the clerk. I don't remember.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1145)[English]You had no involvement whatsoever. Did you have no conversations with the Prime Minister? Did the deputy clerk have no conversations with the Prime Minister?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1145)[English]As soon as I was invited to the justice committee, I stepped back and recused myself from all the issues around document production.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1145)[English]You recused yourself entirely. Okay.You wouldn't be able to comment, for example, on why the order in council was drafted in a way that prevented Jody Wilson-Raybould from providing her full version of events.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1145)[English] I did not participate in the drafting, but I'm sure we would have tried to strike some sort of balance between the confidentiality of those cabinet meetings and the specifics that Ms. Wilson-Raybould was going to be asked to testify about. I didn't participate in the drafting of that order.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1145)[English]Is it accurate to say that you recused yourself entirely from the drafting of that order in council at any discussions that may have taken place about expanding the scope of that?MichaelWernickPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff: (1150)[English]I have a point of order, Chair. I understand that we are meeting today to talk about an RCMP investigation. That was what we—MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1150)[English]It gets to the very heart of that issue.PamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Hang on. I want to....Go ahead.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff: (1150)[English]I have the floor, Mr. Cooper.Rehashing something that happened five years ago, which has been subject to numerous meetings of a whole bunch of different committees in Parliament.... We're talking about the RCMP. None of these questions have to do with an RCMP investigation.My understanding, Mr. Chair, is you said he was here to talk about what the motion was in regard to. Maybe we could just stick to that.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1150)[English]You were asking about my Twitter in the last round.PamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Michael, just hang on a second.Thank you for that, Ms. Damoff. I appreciate your words.Mr. Cooper, you have the floor and you can continue on this. I did stop your clock. I expect that you're going to come back....MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1150)[English]I expect Mr. Wernick to answer the question that I asked.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Go ahead, please.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1150)[English]I'm sorry, but I've lost the thread. What was the question?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1150)[English]Stop my clock.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1150)[English]I asked you, Mr. Wernick—before I was interrupted—to clarify that, from the time that you had appeared at the justice committee, you entirely removed yourself from discussions concerning the scope of the order in council and any further discussions or consideration of expanding the scope of that order in council.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1150)[English]That's correct, and everybody concerned was interviewed by the commissioner in the months that followed.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1150)[English]To Ms. Damoff's point, it is relevant to the issue of an RCMP investigation because we heard testimony from the RCMP that the strongest theory towards establishing obstruction of justice was whether the Prime Minister removed Jody Wilson-Raybould to get an Attorney General who would make a decision the Prime Minister wanted, and that the RCMP was impeded in its investigation to determine that as a result of the parameters of that order in council.Mr. Wernick, when you appeared at the justice committee back in 2019, you characterized your interactions, and those of the Prime Minister and his officials, with the Minister of Justice Jody Wilson-Raybould as so-called “lawful advocacy” to appropriately raise “public interest considerations” to the minister, particularly that SNC would move its headquarters from Montreal, resulting in the loss of at least 9,000 jobs. I'm going to ask you, what evidence did the government have that SNC-Lavalin would move its headquarters from Montreal if a deferred prosecution agreement was not entered into?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1150)[English]I think we went over this at the justice committee. There were representations, public statements and market disclosures made by SNC.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1150)[English]Mr. Wernick, you must have known that SNC had a financing agreement with the Caisse de dépôt that required it to maintain its headquarters in Montreal for another six years until 2024. It was public knowledge that SNC had entered a 20-year lease at its Montreal headquarters and had also announced major renovations to its headquarters in Montreal, worth millions. Two days before your infamous December 19, 2018, telephone call with Jody Wilson-Raybould, in which you specifically raised the issue of 9,000 jobs and SNC moving its headquarters, the CEO—MichaelWernickGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal (Calgary Skyview, Lib.): (1150)[English] Chair, I have a point of order.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Hang on, Mr. Cooper.Go ahead with your point of order, Mr. Chahal. I just advise you that it's been the practice in this committee that I've given members their time to ask questions on a broad range of things in relation to this. If it's to object to the line of questioning from Mr. Cooper....GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1150)[English]Mr. Chair, I haven't even made my point of order yet, so I'm not sure what you're objecting to.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Go ahead. I'm not objecting to anything. I want to hear what you have to say.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1150)[English]Well, it does—JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1150)[English]He's trying to disrupt my line of questioning—that's what he's doing.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Just hang on, Mr. Cooper, please.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1150)[English]Mr. Cooper is interrupting my point of order, which I have not had the opportunity to make.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Chahal.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1150)[English]Mr. Chair, I would like the opportunity to present my point of order. I ask Mr. Cooper about the relevance of his questioning, and—Mr. Michael Barrett: The chair ruled on it.Mr. George Chahal: —once again you have not let me finish, Mr. Barrett. You're not the chair.Mr. Michael Barrett: The chair ruled on it.Mr. George Chahal: Mr. Barrett, you're not the chair. If you'd let me finish—JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1150)[English] He ruled on relevance.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Mr. Chahal, I know which direction you're going on this.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1150)[English]Well, you do not, because I haven't finished my sentence.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]I do know which direction you're going on this.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1150)[English]All I would like to do—Mr. Michael Barrett: Then challenge the chair.Mr. George Chahal: —is say that the point of order—Mr. Michael Barrett: He already ruled.Mr. George Chahal: —is on the relevance of Mr. Cooper's questioning to do with the RCMP.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1155)[English]You're interrupting my line of questioning.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Hang on. Hang on.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1155)[English]Chair, you've already ruled on this. You ruled on this already.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Michael and Michael—MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1155)[English]I presented my point of order. JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1155)[English]This is typical Liberal obstruction. It's all part of a cover-up.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Mr. Chahal, I want you to go through the chair on this, okay? Don't go through Mr. Cooper.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1155)[English]Thank you, Chair.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]You have a point of order that you're raising. State your point of order succinctly, please, and then we'll go from there.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1155)[English]If I'm allowed to do so, I will raise my point of order succinctly.I'd like to know what the relevance of the questioning provided by Mr. Cooper is, because this has nothing to do with the RCMP.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Mr. Chahal, I've been chairing this committee for 18 months now. In every circumstance when we've had discussions at this committee, I've given members broad latitude to discuss and ask questions that they feel are relevant to the situation, with the expectation that they're going to bring it back. You're not issuing a point of order. Your point of order is actually very subjective.Mr. Cooper, you have the floor. Go ahead, please. You have 53 seconds.Thank you for your point of order, Mr. Chahal.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1155)[English]Thank you.None other than two days before your infamous phone call with Jody Wilson-Raybould, in which you raised the issue of jobs and SNC moving, the CEO had publicly stated that SNC-Lavalin was committed to staying in Montreal. Why did you tell Jody Wilson-Raybould that jobs were on the line and there was a risk of SNC moving its headquarters when you had to have known that this simply wasn't true?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]That was my understanding at the time. The law that Parliament created in terms of deferred prosecution agreements—MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1155)[English]How is it possible that this could have been your understanding at the time—MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]Will you let me finish, Mr. Cooper?MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1155)[English]—in the face of everything I've laid out?MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Mr. Cooper, let him finish, please.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]Will you let me finish?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1155)[English]Mr. Wernick—MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]You're badgering.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonMichaelCooperSt. Albert—Edmonton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89219MichaelCooperMichael-CooperSt. Albert—EdmontonConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CooperMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Cooper: (1155)[English]—your answer is simply—MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]You're badgering.MichaelCooperSt. Albert—EdmontonGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1155)[English]A point of order. MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Mr. Cooper—Mr. George Chahal: A point of order.The Chair: —thank you for your line of questioning. That concludes your time.We'll now go to Mr. Bains for five minutes.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1155)[English]I do have a point of order.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Go ahead with your point of order, Mr. Chahal.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1155)[English]Once again, I just want to acknowledge that the witness is here to answer the questions, not to be interrupted by the member asking the questions. If you ask a question, allow the witness to provide an answer.I'd ask Mr. Cooper to apologize—JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chahal.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewGeorgeChahalCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110882GeorgeChahalGeorge-ChahalCalgary SkyviewLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChahalGeorge_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. George Chahal: (1155)[English]—for rudely interrupting the witness in the middle of his answer.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]I get the gist of what you're saying, Mr. Chahal.We'll proceed with Mr. Bains now for five minutes.Go ahead. Thank you.GeorgeChahalCalgary SkyviewParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains (Steveston—Richmond East, Lib.): (1155)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Mr. Wernick, for joining us today.Do you think cabinet confidentiality should be further waived in the context of investigations conducted by the RCMP?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]Generally, there should be a maximum of disclosure, but it would be a case-by-case determination.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1155)[English]Okay.Would you agree that in this case, with waiving cabinet confidence in regard to the SNC-Lavalin situation, this represents one of the largest and most expansive waivers of cabinet confidences in Canada's history?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]I don't know which documents were divulged, which were redacted and which were retained, so I don't really have a way of judging that against other production of document issues.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1155)[English]You said that you've had a career of 38 years. Do you know how many times cabinet confidence has been waived in the past in the context of a potential criminal investigation?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]I don't have a specific number on that. It usually would have been in the case of criminal investigations, commissions of inquiry, structured processes. The one I'm most familiar with is the Admiral Norman trial. I authorized a very large disclosure of cabinet papers from the Harper and Trudeau governments to that trial.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1155)[English]How large?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]I don't remember. That was about eight years ago.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1155)[English]Okay.During your testimony at the justice committee in 2019, you stated, “the independence of the investigative and prosecutorial function has never been compromised”. Do you still agree with that statement?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1155)[English]Actually, that's a statement by the director of public prosecutions. ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1155)[English]Okay.The Ethics Commissioner interviewed a long list of staff officials. We heard from the RCMP commissioner that the Ethics Commissioner has more access than even the RCMP. If there is a criminal wrongdoing or a wrongdoing of any kind, then the commissioner must stop and hand over findings to the RCMP.Is this your understanding of the rules around disclosure?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English] I don't have anything to rely on right now except my memory, but, yes, that would be my understanding.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1200)[English]Are you aware of the number of people who were interviewed?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English]No. I've never had a conversation with the RCMP about any investigation or any operation, ever.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1200)[English]How about the Ethics Commissioner?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English]I was interviewed by the Ethics Commissioner in the summer of 2019.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1200)[English]How much time do I have left?The Chair: You have two minutes.Mr. Parm Bains: In his appearance before the committee, the RCMP commissioner, Mike Duheme noted the following about cabinet confidences:Cabinet confidence is there for a reason. I think the interpretation of cabinet confidence, which we had a discussion on earlier, sometimes differs from one person to another.Recently, the Supreme Court of Canada stated:Beyond legislation, Cabinet confidentiality is protected as a matter of constitutional convention, or the rules of behavior established by government institutions that are not enforced by the courts, but are considered binding by those who operate the ConstitutionWhat is your interpretation of cabinet confidentiality, and why is it important?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English]The Westminster system of cabinet government relies on the confidentiality of cabinet discussions, such that ministers can speak freely among their colleagues, and then they're bound by the decision that's called and bound by cabinet solidarity as a consequence of that. If you were operating in the open, like a city council, then people would behave like a city council and there would be far less candour within the cabinet room. That's the software on which Canada's federal and provincial governments run. It's been acknowledged as such by the Supreme Court.That creates tensions between the different branches of government, and the courts will decide on that. The general framework has been set by the Supreme Court in more than one decision, and it's been set by the Federal Court in some specific cases in terms of arguments about specific documents and specific redactions.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastParmBainsSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/111067ParmBainsParm-BainsSteveston—Richmond EastLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BainsParm_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Parm Bains: (1200)[English]That's all I have to say, thank you.MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]Thank you, Mr. Bains.That concludes our first hour of questioning. We're now going to proceed to the second hour, which means we're going to reset the clock.This is a reminder to members that if there is an intervention, it needs to be made through the chair. I don't want to have banter back and forth between members. I'm also going to remind members as well that relevance is subjective. I believe that members have their time to ask their questions. I also expect, as I said earlier, that members are going to come back to the point. If you're interrupting because you don't like something you're hearing, that's too bad.Mr. Brock, you have six minutes. Go ahead.ParmBainsSteveston—Richmond EastLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock (Brantford—Brant, CPC): (1200)[English]Thank you, Chair.Mr. Wernick, the focus of my time with you will be on the concept of a two-tier level of justice. However, before I get to that, with today being March 19, when did you know that you were going to be invited to this committee?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English] I don't know. It was about a week ago, I think.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1200)[English]It was about a week ago?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English]I'll have to check my emails. It was something like that, yes.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1200)[English]Okay. Then, in the past week or so, what did you do to prepare for this meeting?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English]It was just me and Google search. LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1200)[English]I'm sorry, what?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English]It was just me and my Google search. I haven't spoken to anybody about this appearance.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1200)[English]No, that wasn't the question. How did you prepare? Did you review, for instance, your two transcripts of previous testimony at the justice committee?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1200)[English]I read the commissioner's report. I downloaded and read the two committee appearances, and I did a search for news articles.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1200)[English]Okay, that's a good start.Now, we know that the ultimate conclusion of the Dion report is that the Prime Minister directly, and through senior officials, used various means to exert influence over Jody Wilson-Raybould: The authority of the Prime Minister and his office was used to circumvent, undermine and ultimately to attempt to discredit the decision of the director of public prosecutions as well as the authority of Ms. Wilson-Raybould as the Crown's chief law officer.I'm going to quote from her book, Indian in the Cabinet. She says:These efforts to pressure me—either directly or through Jessica—continued. Eventually, eleven officials from the PMO, the Privy Council Office, and the Office of the Minister of Finance made attempts. Over that four-month period there were approximately ten phone calls and ten meetings about SCN-Lavalin, culminating in a phone call I had with the clerk of the Privy Council on December 19, 2018.Now, you didn't know that you were being audiotaped, did you?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1205)[English] No.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1205)[English] I did review, with some great scrutiny, your previous transcripts and your evidence at the justice committee. You didn't take contemporaneous notes, unlike Jody Wilson-Raybould, of all your interactions with her, did you?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1205)[English]No.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1205)[English]There was nothing you could use to refresh your memory in advance of your appearance at the justice committee five years ago.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1205)[English]Do you mean between December and my appearance in February?LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1205)[English]Yes.Mr. Michael Wernick: No.Mr. Larry Brock: Okay. Now, in your opening statements, and I don't know if it was in your first or second testimony, you talked about a two-tier level of justice, but only in relation to the fact that SNC-Lavalin eventually did not receive the DPA and, ultimately, as we know, pled guilty to one count of fraud.That's not the focus of the question. The focus is that, in my view, there is a perception among Canadians and numerous members—me included—that there was a political non-appetite by the RCMP to conduct a thorough investigation. Prior to the commissioner's attendance not too long ago, they had close to four years of investigating this particular matter. Unlike the former Ethics Commissioner, who essentially interviewed 14 witnesses—you included—the RCMP interviewed four. Now, I know you've already opined that you're not going to talk about police operations, but given that discrepancy, do you think there is a disconnect between in terms of how the Ethics Commissioner approached this investigation versus the RCMP?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1205)[English]I think the Ethics Commissioner's mandate, given by Parliament, is about violations of the Conflict of Interest Act, and the RCMP would be looking at a threshold of potential violations of criminal law, so they would be looking at it with a different lens.It is entirely up to the RCMP whether they pursue preliminary investigations, fact-finding, final investigations or move on to laying of charges. That's their job.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1205)[English]However, the evidence is still the same. The RCMP confirmed that they relied upon the evidence received from the Ethics Commissioner. He was ultimately stymied and was upset that he was unable to complete a fulsome report due to the actions of the Prime Minister, which is exactly the same rationale the RCMP had used in closing their investigation, because they could not obtain further information from the Prime Minister. Were you aware of that?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1205)[English]I'm aware that that's what the commissioner wrote in his report—yes, of course.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1205)[English]There are two elements to any criminal charge. The RCMP was investigating obstruction of justice and intimidation of a justice participant. There are two elements: There has to be an act and there has to be a mental element—an intention to complete the act—known as actus reus and mens rea. I don't want to get into legal complexities, but that is the ultimate test. Did you review the testimony of the RCMP commissioner from a few weeks ago?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1205)[English]No.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1205)[English]All right.Now, I'm going back to some of the evidence that—MichaelWernickJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]I'm sorry, Mr. Brock. You have 10 seconds left.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantLarryBrockBrantford—Brant//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110354LarryBrockLarry-BrockBrantford—BrantConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrockLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Brock: (1205)[English]I have no time. Thank you.JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88674JohnBrassardJohn-BrassardBarrie—InnisfilConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BrassardJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]Thank you.Mr. Sorbara, you have six minutes.LarryBrockBrantford—BrantFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara (Vaughan—Woodbridge, Lib.): (1205)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.It's great to be on this committee today. Happy Tuesday to everyone.Mr. Wernick, thank you for being here with us today. When did you leave government, please?JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1205)[English]I left on Easter weekend of 2019.FrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1205)[English]I do want to get this on the record, and you may have stated this earlier. How many years did you serve in the public service and in what capacity?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1205)[English]I served for 38 years in the public service—17 years as a deputy minister and three years as clerk.FrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1205)[English]I take it that over that 38-year period, you served under administrations or governments of both Liberal and Conservative stripe.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1210)[English]Indeed. I'm very sad to see Mr. Mulroney's death.FrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1210)[English]Yes. I'll state, and hopefully state it later this evening, that Mr. Mulroney was a transformative prime minister for Canada and for the time, as I will reflect on his many achievements we have heard about and have been reminded of in the last few days.Mr. Wernick, I can only say, regarding your responsibility level, that what you as a former Clerk of the Privy Council and secretary to the cabinet carried on your shoulders was, in fact, a very high bar.MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1210)[English] Thank you, sir.FrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1210)[English]In what capacity are you operating today? Are you just fully retired or are you still contributing to Canada and to our society?MichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichaelWernickMichael-WernickInterventionMr. Michael Wernick: (1210)[English]I'm a part-time university professor. I've been endowed a chair, and I dabble in public administration, governance, public sector productivity management issues. My output is on the LinkedIn site that I maintain. FrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1210)[English]Yes, of course, the Jarislowsky chair, the endowed chair. As anyone knows in the investment world, what Jarislowsky, the individual, has done for Canada is actually quite exemplary.Going to—MichaelWernickMichaelWernickINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE