//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0171st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, June 13, 2019Le jeudi 13 juin 2019Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTJune 13, 2019CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 017 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 017 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 017 (Version officielle)017130620192019/06/13 10:15:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Chair of the Board of Internal Economy): (1205)[English] Order. We are now in the public session of the Board of Internal Economy meeting. We will go to the next item, which is the minutes of the previous meeting. Are they approved?Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.MarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Member of the Board of Internal Economy): (1205)[English]Just briefly, I note there is a mention of pairing. We didn't wish to talk about pairing. I should actually read from the minutes. I'm going by memory here. I just want to make clear that it was an informal discussion. I certainly did not wish to indicate with my remarks that any changes to the pairing system should be made. I don't know if that's indicated in the minutes. I want to clarify that I was not asking for this board or PROC, or anyone else, to study the issue of pairing now or in the future. That would be a discussion for the whips, perhaps.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Thank you very much.Is there anything else? With that information—MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert (Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons ): (1205)[English]It's a non-change.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]With that presentation, then, can we say the minutes are approved?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: Thank you very much. The next item is business arising from the previous meeting. Is there anything arising from the previous meeting?Some hon. members: No.Hon. Geoff Regan: Thank you. Now we're at the seventh item on the agenda: the update from the members' working group on the LTVP. We have quite a group here to present on that. Is it Ms. Sgro who will lead off?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctCharlesRobertJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.): (1205)[English]Yes, Mr. Chair, I will. Thank you very much. Today I'm joined by my colleague Kelly Block, as well as Peter Julian, who is also a representative on this working group. For your background information, the working group met on June 4 and June 11 to review the proposed governance structure and initiate engagement on the Centre Block rehabilitation project. The House of Commons administration provided an overview of the long-term vision project, or LTVP, and background on consultations and approvals to date.The working group discussed the governance structure and agreed on the mandate. The working group was formed as requested by the BOIE with a view to provide engagement with members on requirements and oversight on the Centre Block project and LTVP. The working group will report to the board to provide updates on the rehabilitation project and make recommendations as required. The working group will help guide and inform consultations and engagement with members and stakeholders.For the development and implementation of the LTVP, guiding principles that we will work under were developed at various milestones. We reviewed those established principles and we propose an updated set of guiding principles that are appropriate for Parliament with regard to the Centre Block rehabilitation. We would seek BOIE's endorsement of the following principles. Centre Block’s primary purpose is to accommodate the two Houses of Parliament. It is first and foremost a workplace for parliamentarians, and the design and operational requirements of the building must take those needs into consideration.The Centre Block rehabilitation—Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]I don't have that in front of me. I trust what Ms. Sgro is saying is correct, but I would like to read it at the same time.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Do we have copies of the presentation available for members? Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy A. Sgro: (1205)[English]What I have here are our speaking notes.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Here comes at least one copy of them.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy A. Sgro: (1205)[English]My understanding was that you had received a fair amount of information on this project already.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]We have something. However, it doesn't include the list that you were starting to read. It sounded as though it would be a good list for us to have.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy A. Sgro: (1210)[English]Do you mean the guiding principles?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Yes, the guiding principles. We'd better let you carry on. Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy A. Sgro: (1210)[English] The Centre Block rehabilitation project will aim to enhance the operations of Parliament from a functional and technological standpoint to ensure that the infrastructure continues to meet evolving requirements for the proper functioning of Parliament. The CB rehabilitation project will work to ensure public participation in the work of Parliament, with continued access to chamber proceedings, question period and committee work, as well as to enhance and expand opportunities for public outreach by creating spaces that complement the historic building.The CB rehabilitation project will explore options for universal accessibility and interconnectivity between buildings on the parliamentary campus via an underground tunnel system and supporting infrastructure. The CB rehabilitation project will continue to create a balance of accessibility to Parliament and a secure environment. The CB rehabilitation project will strive to restore the significant heritage fabric of the building as originally designed and built, and to update all engineering and life-saving systems to comply with contemporary expectations of wellness, safety, sustainability and universal accessibility in support of parliamentary functions.Decisions regarding the future of Centre Block will be guided by the principles of fiscal responsibility and the conscientious use of resources, while taking into account the value placed on restoring historical heritage spaces. At our working group's initial meeting, we were provided with an overview of the project plan and the roles of the various stakeholders. This complex project is being delivered following a fast-track methodology consisting of many overlapping activities. In this process, early decisions need to be made while requirements are still being developed. This risk is managed through a process of layered decisions that allow flexibility.Going forward, we will be looking at detailed requirements for key functions in Centre Block and the visitor welcome centre complex to ensure that building functions reflect the operations of Parliament and the members' needs in our workplace. In terms of immediate activities for Centre Block and the visitor welcome centre, it has been determined that there are two items that require endorsement at this time: the excavation contracting strategy for the visitor welcome centre and the construction hoarding. The working group has reviewed the options and brings forward our suggestions for the BOIE's consideration.The visitor welcome centre requirement, or VWCC, was established in the 1999 document “Building the Future”. The concept was established and approved by the BOIE, COIE and cabinet in 2006 and reconfirmed in 2009 and 2011. Requirements for the VWCC phase 2 are still under development and will require the working group's validation and further BOIE approval. To ensure that the CB project maintains momentum, an early decision on the excavation contracting strategy is required.The working group was presented with three options for the excavation strategy for phase 2 of the proposed visitor welcome centre. All options considered the following implications: security, visitor experience, parliamentary functional requirements and cost. While it was clear to us that excavation is required to accommodate base building requirements, we were of the view that other expressed requirements should be assessed and decided upon after the election. Accordingly, the working group recommends going forward with the excavation contracting strategy for phase 2 of the visitor welcome centre that includes the baseline of a 22,000-square-metre NET underground expansion of Centre Block, with options that allow for the contract to be scaled down or up depending on decisions with respect to allow actual requirements beyond machinery and equipment.The second item is the construction hoarding. This site plan indicates roughly the maximum area for the construction site, which includes the Centre Block; the anticipated approximation of where the VWCC will require excavation; and room for construction trailers, material laydown and heavy equipment mobility. The black line indicates the approximate location proposed for the construction hoarding, leaving approximately half the front lawn for public access and for activities to continue throughout the project implementation.(1215) Installation of the construction hoarding is planned to start in the fall of 2019.The working group was presented with three hoarding options for consideration.The working group recommendation is a hoarding design that reflects the architecture of Centre Block, displaying images and interpretive text about the project and Parliament for visitors. This would be maintained over the lifespan of the rehabilitation project.This option provides a cost-effective fencing for the construction site and a visitor experience while the Centre Block is rehabilitated.The recommendations before you today from our working group are, first, to proceed with the excavation contracting strategy for phase 2 of the visitor welcome centre that includes the baseline of a 22,000-square-metre NET underground expansion of Centre Block, with options that allow for the contract to be scalable down or up, depending on decisions with respect to actual requirements. The working group also recommends proceeding with hoarding on the front lawn with large monochromatic photos or illustrative drawings on the front face and with ornamental black fencing for the remainder of the perimeter.Joining me and Ms. Block at the table here today are some of the appropriate people from the various departments working on this project.Ms. Block, do you have anything you want to add?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestKellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block (Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC): (1215)[English]No, just that if there are any questions, I think we'd be happy to answer them.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.KellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1215)[English]This is going to be a bit of a work in progress as we figure out.... We don't want to duplicate your work. You've obviously been assigned to these tasks to represent all of our interests.Obviously, decisions were made previously regarding the new visitor welcome centre. I wasn't a part of those boards and I haven't seen those documents. I don't know how close to scale the site plan is and I imagine it's not designed to be that way, so could you perhaps explain something for my benefit? The current visitor and parliamentary business entrance obviously deals only with the House side at this time. However, it looks as if that is.... What is the current footprint of the temporary, if we want to call it that, visitor welcome centre? What additional functions will it be performing to merit 22,000 square metres, up or down, inside? I should have been paying more attention to the fact that this one downstairs here was a temporary structure, and the new one looks quite a lot larger than what we have now. Explain it to me very quickly. Is there more under there than just the welcome centre, and that's just what it's being called? Do we really need something that's 10 times bigger than what we have now?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright (Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Public Services and Procurement Canada): (1215)[English]Phase 1—and there are phase 1 and phase 2—is approximately 5,000 square metres, so it is about a quarter of the size of what is recommended to proceed with today. That really services the West Block as a visitor welcome centre. It is a permanent facility, not a temporary facility. Phase 1 will be extended with phase 2, which will serve, in addition to the West Block, the Centre Block and the East Block, creating in essence one integrated parliamentary complex with this visitor welcome centre beneath the great lawn.Phase 2 of the visitor welcome centre would provide the same services that phase 1 does, including security screening first and foremost, as well as some visitor services and some support functions related to the operations of the House. The visitor welcome centre would provide those services for Centre Block and East Block, as well as some expanded visitor experience for individuals visiting the Hill. At this point, with part of Centre Block being emptied—the Library of Parliament tracks the statistics—75% of people trying to visit Centre Block were not able to because of volume, essentially management. The visitor welcome centre would provide expanded facilities for Canadians and international visitors visiting the Hill, enabling them to have an experience with our Parliament. The security functions are a core requirement of this facility. As well, one of the things that I think we've reported to a number of committees now is that modernizing Centre Block will mean displacing about 2,500 square metres of space within the facility. Just as an example, there was a 14-fold increase in the space required for mechanical operation of the building. Putting in new elevator shafts, for example, and additional washrooms and mechanical shafts will take up space in the facility. As you would know better than I, Centre Block does not have a lot of this modern functionality. The last piece is that there is also the opportunity for the visitor welcome centre to absorb some of those displaced functions from Centre Block. Some of the core support functions could go to the visitor welcome centre. With this strategy that's being proposed, those decisions don't need to be taken today. This is an excavation strategy that can be brought down or up depending on the requirements of Parliament as we proceed.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice (Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1220)[English] If I may, I would add something from the discussion at the working group right now. What Rob has been mentioning thus far has been on the proposed visitor welcome centre as proposed in the past, but the working group asked a very good question in terms of whether we really need all those functions and whether we need to build a visitor welcome centre as it is currently being entertained. Right now what is before the working group is what I will call a wish list of requirements. These requirements need to be assessed and validated, and that was a discussion for the working group. What has been clear to the working group is the need for machinery and equipment to modernize the Centre Block—which represents, I believe, about 10,000 square metres—and also for connectivity between the buildings in terms of the handling of goods and materials. The working group said to keep the momentum and to allow the digging for at least those basic requirements needed for the modernization of the Centre Block to proceed and to not lose the momentum over the project. After the election, the working group will turn its attention to the different requirements expressed by the partners and also take into consideration how phase 1 of the visitor welcome centre can be repurposed. That will be left for post-election review. Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctRobWrightGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Julian.MichelPatricePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1220)[Translation]Ms. Sgro and Ms. Block, thank you for your statements.[English] I want to be very clear about what is coming before the BOIE right now. We're not approving the visitor centre—and I don't think there is even consensus about moving to a visitor centre—but the excavation contract is something we're proposing be tendered for now, to begin in January 2020.A ballpark figure of 22,000 square metres allows the BOIE, after the election, to either scale up if the decision is to add the visitor centre—and I think there will be a time and a place to discuss and debate that—or scale down to the minimum requirements, which Mr. Patrice and Mr. Wright have indicated are part of the essential elements of supplying the mechanical updates to the Centre Block. That would be 12,500 square metres.The scalability, I think, is very important to all three of us. A decision should not be taken around the visitors' centre now. The excavation contract allows us to scale down to the essentials, or, if a future BOIE decides to go with the visitor centre, to scale up to the ultimate size, which would be about 33,000 square metres.The excavation contract does not block us in and is not a decision to move ahead with the visitor centre. It is not. I feel pretty strongly about that. It's not a decision we should be making just a few weeks prior to a general election. The BOIE and the committee coming out of the election can then have that debate and discussion, and decide whether that excavation contract is scaled down to the essentials—12,500 square metres—or scaled up to another concept.I'm comfortable with recommending the excavation contract and moving ahead with it, with the caveat that the BOIE can decide that we just keep to the essentials in the new year.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Before I go to Ms. Block, this is listed on the agenda as an update. To what degree are you looking for a decision from the board?Ms. Block had her hand up.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyKellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1225)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate your question, and it probably raises for me other questions I have about our role as a working group. I don't think it's for us to determine or suggest the decisions that this board needs to take on this question, but I wanted to concur with what my colleague has presented to you in regard to the things we deliberated on. I would just add that the option we are favouring is the second of three. There was an option to go with a smaller square footage, and also a larger one. We took the middle-of-the-road approach, knowing that there was the scalability that my colleague commented on.I would also like to put on the record that I personally leaned heavily toward supporting the recommendation coming forward on what had been done by previous boards in regard to establishing this concept of a visitor welcome centre. I did not feel, as a member of a working group that's here to provide suggestions to decision-making bodies, that I would be willing to undo the work that had been done over the previous 20 years.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Thank you.We will go to Mr. Julian and then Ms. Bergen. Wait, it's Monsieur Rodriguez. Let's not be confused about that.[Translation]I apologize.KellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Minister of Canadian Heritage and Multiculturalism): (1225)[Translation]Thank you very much.First of all, it says here that about half of the front lawn will remain in place to allow public access and activities during the project. Obviously, the upcoming Canada Day celebrations will be the last to be held on the Hill for a while - you are all invited to come, by the way - because they take up a lot of space.It seems that we will still be able to hold activities in the remaining space. How many people, approximately, can this space accommodate? What type of activities will be possible? Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1225)[Translation]I will ask my colleague Ms. Garrett to give you more details.We are working closely with our partner Canadian Heritage to ensure that all activities can continue to be held there. This is a key objective of this work and the basis of our partnership model.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierJenniferGarrettJenniferGarrettJennifer-GarrettInterventionMs. Jennifer Garrett (Director General, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Public Services and Procurement Canada): (1225)[English] As some further detail, there has been a significant amount of effort to coordinate across both legislative and executive branches of government to make sure it's as much as possible a very positive visitor experience and business as usual.To give you a couple of examples, we've been coordinating with the Department of National Defence, and they have confirmed that the Changing of the Guard, for example, will continue on the Hill. We have coordinated with our construction manager to make sure, to the extent we can, that the flag will continue to fly over the Peace Tower, and even with a view of continuing the program of yoga on the Hill. Every ceremony that we are aware of and all possible activities have been fully coordinated. We have a summary of the current plans with regard to what is going to be happening with those events. I would say in general that nothing has been unduly affected. It's able to operate within the smaller footprint of the front lawn.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctRobWrightPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1230)[English]I guess we can have that list of the plans...?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctJenniferGarrettJenniferGarrettJenniferGarrettJennifer-GarrettInterventionMs. Jennifer Garrett: (1230)[English]We would be happy to provide that.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1230)[Translation]My next question is about the palisade on the site, which looks pretty, from what I see. Have you consulted with the Mayor of Ottawa or Ottawa Tourism about this palisade, which does have a significant visual effect? Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctJenniferGarrettRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1230)[English]We've been working very closely with the National Capital Commission, the City of Ottawa and Ottawa Tourism to ensure the visitor experience remains front and centre, as well as with the parliamentary partners to ensure that the dignity of Parliament is adhered to as we move through that and we remain cost conscious.We're trying to find the balance of all of those elements and make sure that we have a consensus as we move forward. On this element, I think we've probably achieved that consensus approach to make sure that we have a balance.There is one critical thing that perhaps bears mentioning. This is different from the West Block, where we had the traditional wrought iron fencing. The construction yard was a bit off to the side, so it was not as visible as this will be, right in the front of the grand lawn. Covering that is probably a little more important, because it's the Centre Block and because it's the great lawn as well.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1230)[English]You are saying that most stakeholders and people who are concerned, like the mayor and others, would be comfortable with one of the concepts. Okay. Thank you.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctRobWrightGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English]Ms. Bergen is next.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (Member of the Board of Internal Economy): (1230)[English]I apologize. I was a little bit late for this part of the meeting.I have two things. As I recall, when the notion and the idea came up, I think I brought forward the idea that we would get representatives from each of the parties to reflect ideas and thoughts back to the building committee, or however it would be termed. This was in the context of the West Block renovations. Many MPs felt, for lack of a better example, that a house was built for them that they were going to be living in and using, but nobody had ever asked them what they wanted in the house. In order to avoid that with the Centre Block renovations, we wanted a mechanism that was not overly bureaucratic and that wasn't going to be dragging or slowing things down, but one whereby our members could speak to that representative in their caucus. Whether it was that we need to have more women's washrooms or a place where the media can't get to us when we're walking into the chamber or some of the other things that we've heard about, it was a mechanism whereby those thoughts, ideas and wish lists could be conveyed, not in anticipation that they would all be given, but at least that there would be a mechanism for these ideas to be communicated.What I don't believe it was to be is a place where three colleagues are now being asked to make some pretty major decisions. If that has changed, I think we then need to know how that's going to work. I know that when we approached Ms. Block, for example, we did not convey to her that this was now going to be the requirement. I think we need some clarification on the role of our colleagues who are part of this group.Second, I would be interested to know how some of the decisions like this are made, because they are very major decisions. On some of the ideas around what might or might not happen on the front lawn, I don't know if we know who is making the decisions and thus who's accountable for those decisions.Those are the two things I'd like us to solidify: the role of this group—Ms. Sgro, Ms. Block and, I believe, Mr. Julian, who is on that as well—which I do not think should be making major decisions, and then where those decisions are made.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English] Ms. Bergen, I think you've perceived the role precisely. You've stated accurately and exactly what it was intended to be. I see Monsieur Patrice, and I don't know if Mr. Wright wants to comment as well to give the perspectives of the administration and of PSPC.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1230)[English]I'll provide my perspective.Traditionally, the decisions in relation to the requirements—the LTVP and the development of Centre Block and the change and so on—were all approved by BOIE. It's BOIE approval that sets the requirements for the House. My reflection, in terms of past experience, is that these are important decisions. These are complex projects. On reflection, in terms of the time spent in reviewing the decision and the impact, I think often you did not do it justice in terms of your responsibility.Obviously—and it was a lesson learned from the West Block project—as you entertained at the beginning, it was to provide a conduit whereby members could, as you explained, receive feedback from the various caucuses to make sure that your voice and your concerns were expressed. As you know, in recent times another committee, for example, has taken a particular interest in certain decisions that had been made, as well as in decisions for the future. Some members have written some of their preoccupations in terms of the need and so on, so for me it also reflected a lack of a sense of engagement by the members.I believe this group wasn't well placed to receive the detailed information, not to make decisions, but at least to challenge and ask the tough questions of the administration and our partners, Public Works, in terms of whether we really need this, so that it's not administration-driven requirements, to be blunt, but members' requirements. Then the working group could also meet with PROC, for example, if they have an interest and it's a member-to-member discussion in terms of their perception of what the project would be, and also to provide more of a sense of engagement and involvement of members in the project.I think Mr. Strahl said that it's a new beast and it's going to evolve and adapt based on your instruction, based on the needs of the members and the House, as well as in terms of the observations of the working group, and we're there to assist.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English]Then are you saying it's a way to ensure that members are involved and are being consulted as the process goes forward and the construction proceeds? Do I read you correctly as suggesting that the board ought to be inserting itself by giving its—I don't know if the word I want is “decision”—own input into certain aspects of this?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1235)[English]Certainly, because at the end of the day, it's the board that approves, and to be blunt, it's the board that could be accountable for the decisions that are made in terms of the requirements stated by the House of Commons.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English]I see. We're the ones that state the requirements of the House of Commons, right?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1235)[English]That's right.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English]Can we compare that to what the role of PSPC is, and the executive?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMichelPatriceRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1235)[English]From our perspective, in managing these very large projects on behalf of Parliament, one of the most significant risks and most important elements is having clear decisions that are sustainable. That's probably the most important element for us. This type of engagement—ensuring that we are restoring and modernizing these spaces for Parliament and that parliamentarians feel that is the case—is critically important, and it's probably the best way to help ensure that these projects proceed in the best manner possible.We also, from a PSPC perspective, have to find a way, especially with the Centre Block or the visitor welcome centre, to get to consensus with both the House of Commons and the Senate of Canada. Making sure these projects are able to proceed as well as they can and that they respect timelines and budgets are an additional challenge for us.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English] I'm sorry to interject, but with regard to the Senate, we've talked here about the board's expressing what the House's requirements are. Does the Senate's own committee—I forget the name of the committee, but it's comparable to this one—do the same thing? Is there an aspect of the space that we're talking about that relates to the needs of the Senate as opposed to the House, or is it more parliamentary, and both are considered together?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctRobWrightRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1240)[English]Sir, from my perspective, I would say that it's both. There are, obviously, elements that are House-specific and Senate-specific, and then when you get to a facility like the visitor welcome centre, there are elements that you have to make sure are coordinated. In considering the visitor experience, security or some of the back-of-House services, there are definitely synergies and benefits of doing that in a coordinated way. At the end of the day, the visitor welcome centre and the Centre Block are one facility, and we need to think of them as one facility that accommodates different institutions.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1240)[English]Ms. Sgro and Ms. Block wish to intervene. Then I'll go to Ms. Bergen and Mr. Strahl.RobWrightJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy A. Sgro: (1240)[English]I understand the rationale from departmental officials as to why it's important to move forward with the recommendations that we have before you today: in order not to lose time, and so on and so forth. It leaves us with post-election opportunities to reflect on ups and downs and so on.Certainly I would like to see clarification on the roles and expectations for the three of us, who are representing different parties. I don't want to receive a complicated document and be asked for a decision in 48 hours and then go to you with a recommendation that we really haven't had time to be fully engaged in. I love the suggestion. As Ms. Bergen said, these are the kinds of ideas that we thought we may be dealing with. We did not expect, with a limited amount of time, to be coming to you with recommendations to this extent.I think we all understood why we needed to go forward today in a short period of time, but I certainly would appreciate some clarification of the role of the working group in the future and the board's expectations of us.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1240)[English]Before I go to Ms. Block, I think it is that you're there on behalf of members to convey members' concerns and to make sure that they're consulted. You are the voice of members in that process.Go ahead, Ms. Block.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1240)[English]Thank you very much.I might go a step further than my colleague in describing some of the angst we probably felt in the last couple of meetings we've had. I do, at the front end, want to say that I have fully appreciated being brought in and being given the level of detail that we were provided. I think that there's a great group of people here working on this project, so we've relied heavily on, as I said, their expertise, as well as what's been done historically.I would very respectfully suggest that if there is a standing committee that is made up of members from all parties who believe that perhaps they have a role to play in this process, and then there's a working group with three members representing all parties, it feels a little duplicative to me to have us meeting with these folks to sort of get our initial responses to some of these things and then bring that back to you. I'm questioning whether or not we have a layer here that is perhaps not necessary if we have a standing committee like PROC and then, of course, the BOIE, which ultimately is going to be the one making the decisions and which has great representation from every party on it already.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1240)[English]I'm not sure that we do make the ultimate decisions, except to say what we think the requirements of the House of Commons are. PSPC has to make construction decisions and so on.By the way, what we're asked for today, and what the presentation asks for, is approval for a certain size of space to be enclosed by walls and in which the work can be carried out. Of course, that would allow for things of various sizes within that space later, right? That's all you're talking about.At any rate, I have Ms. Bergen, Mr. Strahl and Mr. Julian.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctKellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1245)[English] I have a couple of items.I think, Mrs. Block, you are entirely right. It was never intended, in any way, to be a duplicate body. However, there was a sense that what PROC was looking at doing would not fulfill that mechanism. It would be more of a casual mechanism for our members to use in communicating some simple things. I think when the PROC report is tabled.... I don't know if it's public yet.I agree with you. We do not want a body that duplicates what PROC is doing. I think we're in full agreement. Now we just have to fix that.With respect to what Mr. Patrice was saying—that BOIE has made these decisions—it was before I was here, and I would like to know when that decision was made. I'll use the example of the front lawn of Centre Block, which was going to be excavated, and that whole plan.Then, as to what you're saying, Mr. Speaker, who is making the decisions around how many committee rooms are to be in place, or what the layout is going to be, or...? We're not making those decisions. Again, who makes those decisions? Then we will know who would be ultimately held accountable for them.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1245)[English]I'll give you eye level, and then maybe more on the specifics in terms of the committee rooms and all of that. For example, the visitor welcome centre concept was approved by the BOIE in 1999, and again in 2006, 2009 and 2011. In terms of requirements—committee rooms and such—those decisions are made at the BOIE.There are levels of detail and specificity. I haven't been here, but I can understand that you don't go through every plan, every floor and every room. Sometimes—for committee rooms, as an example—it doesn't go into a level of detail that you would actually have time to look at and assess, and I saw the attempt of the working group to go into what I call the granularity of the project for buildings of this magnitude and a renovation of this size.Susan may confirm this, but over the last 20 years and all these decisions, in one shape or another it was a question of how much detail the previous board got. That's the question.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba (Senior Director, A and LTVP Program Management Directorate, House of Commons): (1245)[English]Things like the number of committee rooms and all the basic requirements were set out in 1999 in a very concise report that was approved by the board. Those are the base requirements that we have been striving to incorporate through the LTVP.As Michel mentioned, in 2006 some of the LTVP was evolved into a site plan and concept ideas. Further to that, in 2009-2011, the administration did a full review to make sure the requirements were still accurate. Under the governance at the time, that went to an LTVP steering committee at the senior management level within the administration, and then went on through the BOIE for approval.Those are the requirements we've been working towards overall. However, as Mr. Patrice says, we've never come to the board with a whole lot of granular detail except on certain occasions, such as the desks in the chamber. That was one of the few times we brought something very detailed to the BOIE. We felt it was very important and we had learned from the experience of the five-seaters that this was something you wanted to be involved in.On projects of this size, there is a lot of detail. It's a matter of figuring out what detail you want to be involved in and what we can work with you on to get feedback and input so that it becomes a better space and place for your work.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1245)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.SusanKulbaMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1245)[English] It's very difficult. I guess I know one of the members who was on the BOIE 20 years ago when this was approved, but of course it was all in camera, so we can't discuss any of it.I have the benefit of sitting beside Mr. Julian here, and clearly this group has been given the financials and the implications. It was not the intention to have people here who.... In the case of Ms. Block, she is a shadow minister, a key member of our shadow cabinet. She's a respected senior member of our caucus, so we put her in there. We didn't put her in there so that she would be making multi-million-dollar suggestions that would put her under an additional amount of pressure because this was suddenly part of her mandate. I don't think we would have wished that upon her. We would have chosen someone we liked much less than Ms. Block, if that were the case. Voices: Oh, oh!Mr. Mark Strahl: Therefore, I think on this one, I understand the need to.... I think this probably should have come to the board directly. I think this probably shouldn't have been something that the working group was assigned to. As we're working through this, we're probably going to find these things, but I don't expect that this is the role of the working group.The tough part is that there is already scaffolding up on the building, so we're going to have much input at this time. However, those of us who sit on this body are ultimately seen to be accountable, regardless of whether the decisions were made by relatives of ours or not in the past.At any rate, this is the last meeting we have. Obviously, it isn't something that they will be seized with over the summer, so we can revisit it again. I don't think we have a problem saying that they need to start digging. If that's what the decision was, yes, they do. Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1250)[English]It's simply, I think, whether they can put up this wall of this size. Mr. Julian has a different view. I'll go to him after Mr. Strahl.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1250)[English]If it is necessary for the project to dig 10,000 square metres in front of the Centre Block, then since we're not engineers and we're not architects and we're well down the path here, that is not a decision we need to make. That needs to happen. If they need to come to us for a decision in the future on whether it needs to be 27,000 square metres or 10,000 square metres, that's fine. I don't know why we're even talking about this issue. I guess what I'm saying is that if you need to put the services in there for 10,000 square metres, then I don't know why it's coming back to us. That needs to happen. Go for it in that regard. I don't know why we need to even talk about the other phases at this point.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1250)[English]Before I go to Mr. Julian, I would ask us to keep in mind how spread out the footprint of the precinct is now. Maybe in due course we could have a comment about whether part of this is intended to either limit that footprint in the future or bring it back a bit, which helps in a number of ways with efficiency, security, etc.Go ahead, Mr. Julian.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1250)[English]I have a question that I should have asked in the working group. Is the BOIE being consulted, or does the BOIE have responsibility for approval? In other words, if we decide right now that we decline the contract for excavation, what happens? Have we made a decision, or is that just something that's taken into consideration in terms of moving forward?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1250)[English]That's a very challenging question. As we have discussed at this committee, this concept and these projects were previously approved. The government entered into these contracts on the explicit understanding that Parliament wanted a visitor welcome centre. Parliament requested the Government of Canada, specifically Public Services and Procurement Canada, to implement such a project. That's the basis, to this point, upon which the contracts have been entered into.If the decision is to no longer proceed, yes, there are contract implications. There's no question about that. Under the authority of the Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada, those contracts were entered into. We would need to have some deep discussions between Parliament and the legislative and executive branches on how best to manage that situation.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1255)[English] That decision of BOIE would be determinant. I support the excavating contract, but if we said no, that decision would then be implemented.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctRobWrightRobWrightRobWrightRob-WrightInterventionMr. Rob Wright: (1255)[English]I'm only speaking from a personal perspective at this point, which can be dangerous, but if Parliament explicitly does not want a visitor welcome centre, I could not see proceeding to build a visitor welcome centre.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1255)[English]Okay. Thank you.RobWrightGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1255)[English]We're not all of Parliament.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1255)[English]I understand, but we're being seen as a decision-making body. I think that's important. Ms. Bergen asked a very valid question. I hadn't actually asked it in the working group. I had assumed that we had decision-making authority, and it appears to be the case.Coming back to the visitor centre, that is something that needs to be decided by a future BOIE. I think all three of us on the working group agreed that this is not a decision that should be taken now. I do not believe that we're tied by decisions that were taken 20 years ago. The context was different and the mechanical demands were different. I believe that we're proceeding step by step on this project, but after the election the new BOIE will have the responsibility of deciding the ultimate configuration. For the excavating contract, the scalability is important, because it doesn't tie us in to the decision about whether or not to proceed with the visitor centre. It allows the work to begin, so we're not delaying this project unduly, but ultimately it will still come back, and some hard discussions and hard decisions will need to be taken after the election about what Centre Block and the renewal project will look like. I think it's important for us to take note of that and to build time in for November and December.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1255)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1255)[English]I believe that at some point I asked for a briefing on the organization chart. What the decision-making process looks like surely must exist somewhere. If we've just layered a working group on top of that, we should be able to see that as well. Even in the assignment of offices in this building, we saw the difficulty of relying on decisions that were taken 20 years ago, so I agree with Mr. Julian that we're the people here now who are responsible for approving or not approving certain funds. We want to be involved where we need to be and not slow things up unnecessarily. I believe that at a previous meeting—I don't have the blues in front of me—I did request some indication of how this is supposed to work going forward. Apparently, we had to jump into it to build the fence and to start the excavating contract. That's fine. We're about to rise at the end of next week, so I doubt this group will have to make any other decisions like this. We still have time to get this right, but I would suggest that it starts a few steps back. I certainly appreciate the work that the working group has done and I apologize for putting you in that stressful position in advance of this meeting, but I think that if we want to get it right, we have to go back to the decision-making flow chart. Then we can look at where we believe a working group or members of Parliament should insert themselves and where they are not to inserted. That will give us a much better idea. Rather than coming to and from this group and presenting, we need to know perhaps where to insert ourselves. I would ask for that again.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1255)[English]Thank you. You put it well by saying “where to insert ourselves”.I have Mrs. Block and Monsieur Patrice—oh, we don't have any time. Sorry; I think I had better suspend. Will you come back, please?Mrs. Block, you have 30 seconds.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeKellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59156KellyBlockKelly-BlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlockKelly_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Kelly Block: (1255)[English]Building on the comments that were made, I think one of the things that was an impetus for us was understanding that there is a cost to delaying, if we don't stick with the deadlines that we've agreed to. We understood that this was one of the reasons it was important to come back now.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1300)[English] We will all reflect on those wise words over the next 10 minutes or so, and then we'll come back, I think—or can we? We can't come back today? We have to finish? I have until 1:30, as I understand it. The meeting is suspended.(1300)(1320)KellyBlockCarlton Trail—Eagle CreekGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1320)[English] Do we wish to approve the excavation contract strategy and the construction hoarding? Is it agreed?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: Monsieur Patrice has indicated that he will provide members of the board, in the next week or so, with a note on the governance of this process.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1320)[English]It will be for discussion purposes, and also a detailed briefing.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1320)[English]I think that from here on, it is important that we decide when we want to insert ourselves—or the board in the future can decide that, whoever they may be.Colleagues, I thank you very much. I know you have lots to do, so I think we had better...or do we want to go on with the next item? We have another item, I guess. Sorry.Go ahead, Ms. Bergen.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctMichelPatriceCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1320)[English]Before you go, I just want to make sure we're clear now, though, as Mark requested, that we can have a flow chart so that we can understand who is making those granular decisions. Then we know, as we said, where we are going to insert ourselves.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1320)[English]Yes.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1320)[English]Thanks.MichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1320)[English]Before we adjourn, we have agenda item 8, video broadcasting and webcasting for committees.Judy, would you go ahead, please?Media streaming and webcastingCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy A. Sgro: (1320)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I want you to know that we appreciate the board agreeing to include our recommendation for additional broadcasting resources and options for committees in the next Parliament as part of your agenda today.I'm joined by Eric Janse, Stéphan Aubé and Ian McDonald from the House administration. As many of you have known, there have been growing challenges around access to the limited resources broadcast committee proceedings on video. As a result, many committee chairs and members feel that committees do not always get the attention they would like for the important work they do on behalf of Canadians.In addition, if additional video streams for committee meetings were added, closed captioning would be included, increasing access to committee proceedings for even more Canadians. As there have not been changes to the existing broadcasting resources since 2001, I think it's probably time.As a result, the liaison committee recently saw a presentation on a web broadcasting option for committee meetings, and the committee fully supported this initiative as a way of increasing access.... Am I going too fast for you, Ian?Media streaming and webcastingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1320)[English]I'm sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Sgro, but I think what we need to come to quickly is the fact that you've made recommendations. They are at the end of the note—Media streaming and webcastingJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Judy A. Sgro: (1320)[English]Yes.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1320)[English]They are: 1) That the Speaker write to the House Leaders to recommend they seek the approval of the House to expand the number of committee meetings that may video broadcast/webcast simultaneously. 2) Approve additional resources as outlined in the Considerations section under “A. Financial Implications”.3) That the temporary funding be absorbed through any surpluses from the global envelope for standing committees available at the end of the fiscal year 2019-2020. Is the board ready to say yes to that? Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.Media streaming and webcastingJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1320)[English]This obviously would have no impact in this Parliament.I think what we are comfortable with, especially at this stage, is to approve the webcasting part of it right away. I think we would look at an additional broadcast capability, perhaps, with the new board. I don't know if that is possible or what the difference is, but that is what we were comfortable with. When we were looking at it, we were comfortable certainly that everything would be broadcast to the web, but we weren't prepared at this time to sign off on the additional television.Media streaming and webcastingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1325)[English]Okay. That's an option we could do. Does everyone else agree to that, or are there other comments? I see no other comments, so are we agreed to that proposal from Mr. Strahl?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: Very good.Thank you very much. Sorry to cut you short, but we don't have any time. We're now on to the four reports that are numbered 9, 10, 11 and 12 on the agenda. Are there any issues arising?Go ahead, Mr. Julian.Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2018-2019Committee Activities and Expenditures, April 1, 2018 - March 31, 2019FinancingHouse of Commons administrationHouse of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMedia streaming and webcastingReport to Canadians 2019MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1325)[English]I think we can take all four together.Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2018-2019Committee Activities and Expenditures, April 1, 2018 - March 31, 2019FinancingHouse of Commons administrationHouse of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilReport to Canadians 2019GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1325)[English]Good.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1325)[English]However, I have a question after reading through the reports. It's on the report on preventing and addressing harassment. There was a question about the reporting in Table 1, which shows there were four inquiries on sexual harassment but no complaints were lodged. I just wanted a response to that. It seemed to me strange that on something as serious as sexual harassment there were inquiries, yet no complaints were levied. It raises some concerns for me that we may have victims of sexual harassment who are not stepping forward for whatever reason, but it could just be that the sexual harassment inquiry could have come from members themselves, who were just making sure that they understood what their responsibilities were.Without context, that figure of four inquiries and no complaints seems concerning. I was hoping there were some answers.Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2018-2019Committee Activities and Expenditures, April 1, 2018 - March 31, 2019FinancingHouse of Commons administrationHouse of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilReport to Canadians 2019GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1325)[English] Go ahead, Ms. Daigle.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle (Director, Members HR Services, House of Commons): (1325)[English] Thanks, Mr. Julian. To give some context, when inquiries come in, they can be inquiries about the policy framework from the members themselves or from employees. It could also be the MP inquiring because they may have a situation between employees. There are a lot of informal mechanisms to help resolve some of these issues without a more formal complaint, so it doesn't mean necessarily that the situation hasn't been dealt with; it just means it may have been resolved otherwise, or it may have just literally been four inquiries on the policy framework if an MP wanted to understand what his obligations are under the policy as well.Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2018-2019Committee Activities and Expenditures, April 1, 2018 - March 31, 2019FinancingHouse of Commons administrationHouse of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilReport to Canadians 2019GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1325)[English]Do we track that, and do we know what happened to those four inquiries?Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2018-2019Committee Activities and Expenditures, April 1, 2018 - March 31, 2019FinancingHouse of Commons administrationHouse of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilReport to Canadians 2019RobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle: (1325)[English]They were resolved. They may have been inquiries on the policy framework. No formal complaint came out of them. Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2018-2019Committee Activities and Expenditures, April 1, 2018 - March 31, 2019FinancingHouse of Commons administrationHouse of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilReport to Canadians 2019PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1325)[English]Thank you.RobynDaigleGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1325)[English]Are the four reports adopted?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: I will table the ones mentioned, number 9 and number 12. Thank you very much, members, for all your hard work on the board. Have a good summer, and good luck. The meeting is adjourned. Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2018-2019Committee Activities and Expenditures, April 1, 2018 - March 31, 2019FinancingHouse of Commons administrationHouse of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilReport to Canadians 2019PeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0161st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, May 30, 2019Le jeudi 30 mai 2019Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTMay 30, 2019CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 016 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 016 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 016 (Version officielle)016300520192019/05/30 11:20:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1115)[English]The Board of Internal Economy is called to order. First of all on our agenda, we have the minutes of the previous meeting. Are they approved?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: Is there any business arising from the previous meeting?[Translation]With Mr. Rodriguez's arrival, a Board of Internal Economy spokesperson must be designated for the government.Do you have anyone to nominate? Board of Internal Economy MemberBoard of Internal Economy SpokespersonHolland, MarkPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Minister of Canadian Heritage and Multiculturalism): (1115)[Translation]I nominate Mr. Holland.Board of Internal Economy MemberBoard of Internal Economy SpokespersonHolland, MarkGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1115)[Translation]Okay.[English]In the absence of an objection, it will be recorded in the minutes that Mr. Holland has been selected as one of the spokespersons for the Board of Internal Economy, along with Mr. Strahl. I'd like to take a few moments to update the board on the members' working group and the LTVP, the long-term vision plan. You'll recall that at our meeting on February 28, we discussed the governance of the Centre Block rehabilitation project and agreed to establish a working group that would report back to the board. This is a topic that members of the procedure and House affairs committee have expressed concern about. They are anxious that members of Parliament be involved in this process. The working group has now been established and is composed of the following members: the Honourable Judy Sgro, Kelly Block, and Peter Julian. (1120)[Translation]The group will provide a forum to consult members and guide the administration on the needs of parliamentarians, while taking into account financial requirements, concepts and considerations. It will meet next week and will report to the board at our next meeting.[English]Peter, I guess this means that you folks will get the blame if there are any problems in 10 years' time.Board of Internal Economy MemberBoard of Internal Economy SpokespersonHolland, MarkParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1120)[English]We're hoping to paint the Centre Block orange. Some hon. members: Oh, oh!GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[English]That will be interesting.All right, is there any other business arising from the previous meeting?Seeing none, let's go on to number three, the 2018-19 year-end financial report. Presenting on behalf of the administration, we have Monsieur Daniel Paquette with Madame Elaine Valiquette.[Translation]Mr. Paquette, go ahead.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1120)[English] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.[Translation]I am pleased to be here today to present to you the 2018-19 year-end financial report, and to obtain your approval to include the operational budget carry forward in the 2019-20 supplementary estimates.[English]This financial report has been prepared using the expenditure basis of accounting, consistent to the Public Accounts of Canada that will be published in the fall. It provides the final authorities and expenditures for 2018-19, along with comparative information from the previous fiscal year. [Translation]Parliament provides the House with authorities to enable it to support members according to the normal parliamentary calendar. The authorities for 2018-19, totalling $506 million, are $6.7 million or 1.3 % lower than the authorities for 2017-18.The most significant changes are the $25-million decrease for members' pension plans, and the $10.6-million increase for continued investments in our LTVP project.In 2018-19, expenditures totalled $487 million, compared with $490 million in 2017-18. That decrease of $3 million, or 0.6 %, is consistent with a decrease in authorities for 2018-19.[English]The expenditures are also presented by type of cost. Compared with previous years, salaries and benefits increased by $1.8 million. This is due to the one-time adjustment of $25 million made in 2017-18, as directed by the actuarial report of the pension plans for the members of Parliament. This reduction was offset by significant investments made in staffing in support of major initiatives, such as the food modernization and optimization of services, the House officer expenditure disclosure, digital strategies to modernize the delivery of parliamentary information and the long-term vision plan. Other factors that also contributed to the increase in personnel costs are the cost-of-living increase for House administration, along with increasing staffing action for members' staff.[Translation]In addition, expenditures related to rentals and licences decreased compared with 2017-18. That decrease is mainly attributed to changes associated with payment periods owing to the renewal of various licences to meet the terms of our agreements.In addition, the decrease related to repairs and maintenance in 2018-19, compared with the 2017-18 expenditures, is mainly attributed to investments made in 2017-18 in security measures and resources.Moreover, 2018-19 revenues increased modestly over the previous year's revenues. In total, our revenues increased by $1.8 million owing to services provided to federal government departments and organizations, and other parliamentary institutions, based on our cost-recovery system.[English] Finally, the report also provides comparisons of the utilization of our authorities between the two fiscal years. This does show a slight increase of 0.7% over the previous year.It's important to note that the House of Commons promotes the efficient use of resources, and continuously strives to minimize requests for incremental funding, whenever possible. For example, the surpluses generated by the delay in the move to the West Block were reallocated to offset costs associated with other initiatives, such as our retroactive payment for the economic increase of House administration staff.As mentioned, our authorities for 2018-19 were $506 million, while expenditures amounted to $487 million. This leaves us with a surplus of $19 million. This amount will correspond to the lapse that will be reported in the public accounts this fall.Note that the surplus reflects the fact that the authorities received are intended to support 338 members. Due to the fact that by-elections were held in five constituencies during the past year, there were fewer MPs, and therefore less support was required, resulting in reduced spending overall. This surplus represents 5.5% of the 2018-19 main estimates voted authorities. The House of Commons typically follows the government's practice of carrying forward any lapsed funds, up to a maximum of 5% of our voted main estimates. I'm seeking your approval today to include in our 2019-20 supplementary estimates a carry-forward of $17.4 million, representing that 5% of our last year's voted main estimates.Mr. Speaker, this concludes my presentation.(1125)[Translation]I am ready to answer your questions.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[Translation]Thank you very much.Mr. Rodriguez, the floor is yours.We will then continue with Mr. Strahl.DanielPaquettePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1125)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you very much, Mr. Paquette. It's a pleasure to see you again.[English]I tried everything I could to get away from this place, but I'm back. [Translation]You say that you provide money to other departments. Is that correct? Does that explain part of the increases? Will the recovery of those funds be faster in that case?2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[Translation]That's right.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1125)[Translation]What kinds of services do you provide?2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[Translation]We play a support role in parliamentary precinct extension and renovation projects. Funding for those projects comes from Public Services and Procurement Canada. We support them, and they refund us for some of those projects, as well as for the tasks we carry out.Our other services are provided by our information technology group, which manages the computer platform used by our parliamentary precinct partners. We collect their contributions—2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1125)[Translation]That was budgeted, and the money has come in.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[Translation]It was budgeted, and we have agreements to recover those contributions.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1125)[Translation]Okay.I haven't been here in a while. Are there still collective agreement negotiations that could have an impact on the increases requested in the coming years?I will also put my last question to you right away. I presume that this report will become public at some point. If so, when will it be made public?2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[Translation]I think our collective agreements expired in 2017 or 2018. We are currently negotiating their renewal, and they could in fact reflect the normal cost of life increase, thereby influencing our future funding request.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1125)[Translation]When will the report be made public?2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[Translation]It will be public once the negotiations are completed.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1125)[Translation]I was talking about this report, the year-end financial report.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[Translation]This report will be published at the end of the day.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1125)[Translation]Okay.Thank you.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English]Mr. Strahl.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1125)[English]Yes, I've noted a couple of things. Our members usually get excited when they see anything referring to transfer payments, so I thought maybe you could address what that relates to. Secondly, with regard to the large surplus.... Obviously, during the electoral cycle, different costs are expected to be incurred. Are there funds already in place for the transition? There are members not running again, and those of us who are trying to get re-elected don't know if we'll be successful or not. Several who are not running again, including many under the age of 55, are entitled to severance pay.Is that built into this, or is it a separate pool of funds? Will that be included in a different set of financials?2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[English]To address your first question, the transfer costs are the transfers of money that we pay to fund the activities of the various associations that Parliament is a member of. It's very specific to those particular items.As for what we call the “election-related costs”, there are transition pieces here. The coming year is one in which various activities are reduced, because we're in election mode. Others increase, because of those transfers, and onboarding. We keep track of those very specifically. We don't have specific funding for that.Looking at how we offset the surplus that may be created as a result of the incremental cost of the reduction of some activities, as I just mentioned, we do have a significant carry-forward that's going to remain. We will make sure to earmark part of that to cover some of these items, such as transition support and the onboarding program that we all know are part of that transition from the election.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1125)[English] Thank you.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English]Julian.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1125)[Translation]Thank you. This has been very informative.You mentioned a $17.4-million amount for this fiscal year. You also talked about negotiations for renewing collective agreements. However, my understanding is that we still have no collective agreement with the Parliamentary Protection Service officers. We see them every day, and they are extremely dedicated people. Will this surplus that is supposed to be carried over into the current fiscal year also be used to conclude an agreement with the Parliamentary Protective Service?2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[Translation]The Parliamentary Protective Service is an independent entity that has its own sources of funding. Its activities and the expenditures associated with its services or the collective agreements it applies stopped appearing in our authorities when the service was created in 2015.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1130)[Translation]So where does the service's funding come from? Unless I am mistaken, the House and the Senate contribute to it. 2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[Translation]The Parliamentary Protective Service has its own budget, which is approved by the Speakers of both houses. We do not manage that budget, as the service reports to the Speakers of both houses.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English] It's a distinct budget that goes before the procedure and House affairs committee, of course, and then back to the House as part of the estimates.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquettePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1130)[Translation]If a collective agreement had to be signed with the Parliamentary Protective Service, a request for funding could likely be submitted to the Board of Internal Economy, right?2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[Translation]It would be up to the Parliamentary Protective Service managers to submit that request for funding to pay for those agreements.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1130)[Translation]It is good to know that the possibility exists.Thank you.2018-2019 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[Translation]Okay.[English]Is there anybody else who wants to speak on this topic?Okay, we'll go to the next topic.Thank you very much.As we go on to the next topic, I'll ask Madam Bergen to chair the meeting as I have to leave for the official ceremony to welcome the Vice-President of the United States, Mr. Pence.Madam Bergen, please.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen (Portage—Lisgar, CPC)): (1130)[English]We are going on to the next item, the regulations respecting the non-attendance of members of Parliament by reasons of maternity or care of a newborn or newly adopted child. We have some presenters here, and I will give the floor to you, Monsieur Dufresne.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne (Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons): (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much, Ms. Bergen and members of the Board of Internal Economy.We are here at the board's request to talk to you about potential regulations that would enable us to justify the non-attendance of members by reason of maternity or care for a newborn or a newly adopted child.[English]Under the Parliament of Canada Act, a deduction is made to the members' sessional allowance for days of absence in excess of 21 days if the member is absent for no acceptable reason. The acceptable reasons set out in the act currently are illness, being on official or public business, or absence due to service in the armed forces.In amendments to the Parliament of Canada Act, a new section 59.1 was added to provide the House with the authority to make regulations for the non-attendance of members by reasons of maternity or care for a newborn or newly adopted child. This provision was preceded by studies from the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, where a recommendation was made to consider the family and parental obligations of members so that they would not be penalized for such reasons. At the same time, questions were raised about the situation of members with respect to ordinary employees.[Translation]We have considered what is being done in other legislative assemblies.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1135)The situation of members is different from that of employees, as members hold public office they are always responsible for, even if they have children. What must be determined is whether non-attendance of members in the House to care for their children or by reason of maternity should be treated more seriously than other types of non-attendance covered in the legislation, such as for reasons of illness, public duties or service in the armed forces.[English] We've looked at other assemblies. Most of the legislative assemblies do not financially penalize members who are absent from the sittings for such reasons. Some will include periods and some will not. Indeed, some assemblies have looked at issues such as proxy voting in some such situations.We have brought a proposal for the board's consideration that could consider as valid reasons for the absence from the chamber the period before the due date, given that the act talks about maternity for a pregnant member. That could be a period of four weeks or it could be a different period. In terms of care for a newborn child or care for a newly adopted child, consideration could be given to a period of 12 months or another period. In any case, these would be decisions for the House to make. Options for this board could be to refer the matter to the procedure and House affairs committee or to have agreement that a member would put forward a motion proposing the regulations.With that, I would open it to questions.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresneCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1135)[English]Mr. Strahl.PhilippeDufresneMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English]Thank you for those comments, Mr. Dufresne.I think that we are certainly supportive of making the regulations, such that pregnant or new parents are....Just to be clear, we're talking about mothers here—primarily pregnant women, in this case. We're not talking about parental leave. This is more of a maternity situation, as I understand it. I just want some clarification on that. Could you address that right off the top? Does this also apply if a father wants to take some time for paternity leave or is this just for mothers?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1135)[English]Mr. Strahl, if we are talking about the four weeks before the due date, that would be only for the mother. The 12 months after the birth or after the date of adoption could be for any parent.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English]Okay. You've done some analysis here. With the employment insurance maternity and parental benefits, there are a maximum number of weeks that an individual is covered. We're looking at 13 months, with what you've put on the table. Unless there's a medical component to someone's maternity leave, I don't believe they would get the same number of weeks. Did you do that analysis? Can you speak to that?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1135)[English]They would not. In terms of employment insurance, the supplementary report that was made in the procedure and House affairs mentioned 55% of income protection for such employees. There are some other employees with different regimes where it's a higher percentage.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English]Obviously, in this case we're talking about retaining 100% of pay and benefits, which is perhaps different from what our constituents would receive in most jobs.For one of our constituents who works at a restaurant and pays into EI and goes on maternity and parental, I believe the maximum is 50 weeks, with a two-week.... I just want that knowledge for us. What number of weeks are we proposing here in addition to what someone would get if EI were the only support available to them?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresneRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle (Director, Members HR Services, House of Commons): (1140)[English] I'll take that question. Thank you.In terms of EI as the comparator, currently what's available to them through EI would be up to 12 months at 55%, or up to 18 months at 33%. I think one of the nuances we want to make here is that in the cases of EI, those employees are actually leaving the workforce. They're not employed during that period—they have no function—whereas here we're simply talking about reasonable reasons for non-attendance in the sitting. There are still functions that are very much current for the MPs at that time.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]Right.What is the vision for how this would be recorded? Would it simply be recorded on the attendance form that we currently use, or is that a decision that has to be made? Right now, there's travelling, official business, illness, etc. Will there simply be another box there that will say “pregnancy” or “parental leave”? What's the mechanism for reporting?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveRobynDaiglePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[English]Assuming that the House were to agree to adopt this regulation, the mechanism would be put in place and it would be recorded to say, “this is the reason for the absence”. In addition to having all of this, like service in the armed forces and public business, those absences would be justified, as it were—Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]—captured on that current reporting mechanism. Okay. Thank you.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresneCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1140)[English]Mr. Rodriguez.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1140)[Translation]I just have two general questions.You said you have looked at what is being done elsewhere in other parliaments.Can you tell me which ones? I assume they are mostly parliaments of industrialized countries?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[Translation]We have looked at legislative assemblies in Canada—those of the provinces and territories—as well those in Great Britain and Australia. A number of those assemblies had no deductions. For instance, in Quebec, there are no deductions in terms of income, but there is an issue concerning the ethics code—in other words, members have an obligation to attend the National Assembly. If a member is not at the National Assembly, they must provide a justification. Many assemblies operate like that.Some assemblies say they want to do it, with the permission of their speaker, or allow it for personal or exceptional situations. We were wondering whether pregnancies were among those situations.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1140)[Translation]Have you seen any cases where non-attendance is allowed for paternity, for a period of time?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[Translation]Yes. There are examples where there was—Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1140)[Translation]How much time were they given?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[Translation]It varies. In some cases, it was one year. In other cases, there was a recommendation of four months. Sometimes, there was no deduction.I would say that there is definitely a general trend where members continue to be paid for the entire year. However, in some cases, certain legislative assemblies may reduce their salary because they are not in attendance. That situation is different for employees who go on parental leave because those employees will be away from their duties. They will often be replaced, which is not the case for members.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1140)[Translation]That could be the case.I want to bring up a very rare hypothetical case. What would happen if a member became a parent one month before the end of their term?That individual would not run in the election and would not return afterwards.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[Translation]Our proposal for consideration includes regulations stipulating that non-attendance in the House for those reasons will not count toward deductions from sessional allowance.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1140)[Translation]Let's say we are talking about four months. That individual becomes a father or a mother one month before the end of the electoral term. They would not return afterwards.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[Translation]After the electoral term, there would be no more sitting days in the House.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1140)[Translation]It would strictly concern sitting days. Okay. Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[Translation]Yes. It would become obsolete or hypothetical.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1140)[English]Mr. Julian.PhilippeDufresnePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1140)[English]Thanks, Madam Chair.I want to underscore the work of Nycole Turmel, a former whip of the NDP, and Christine Moore, the member of Parliament for Abitibi—Témiscamingue. They have really been leaders—I think pioneers—in pushing for an end to what is a pretty strange situation in which members of Parliament are penalized for caring for their children. That is our current policy, and that's what I think we need to keep in perspective. We're currently penalizing parents for doing their work.It seems to me that this is a very reasonable approach. What it allows parents to do is to take their time with their children, but the reality is—as you've spelled out very well, Ms. Daigle and Mr. Dufresne—that voters in any event are still going to require members of Parliament in their riding. What this does is ensure that there's not a financial penalty on top of that. There are still obligations that come. I have many friends in this Parliament who have gone through being new parents. They still have obligations. They still have to attend to things in the riding—there's no doubt. But what this does is end the penalty that members are currently subjected to when they do that. I think, for those reasons, this is a very responsible and appropriate approach.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1145)[English] Thank you.I'll go to Mr. Holland then Mr. Strahl.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Member of the Board of Internal Economy): (1145)[English]I do think that the situation that was identified was very unusual, in that the job continues whether or not you're a parent. There's an expectation that you will continue to represent the riding. There are not really a lot of analogous situations where somebody has a child and is on maternity leave, but then is still expected to work. There isn't an apples to apples type of comparison that can be made here.In a general sense, I think that the comments that we shouldn't have anything that would be seen to be greater than what would be available to our constituents are ones that I'm moved by. I don't know what exactly that number is. I'm open to proposals. I think Madam Chagger perhaps has an idea.I think that we have to be careful about expectations. You can imagine that a minority government may only sit 18 months, and if you say that somebody has 13 months during which they can be absent from the chamber, that could be quite challenging in establishing an expectation. The numbers as they are, I think, are a little generous. I think we have to come up with something perhaps a little different than what's on the table.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1145)[English]Mr. Strahl.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1145)[English]I don't know if it's in the note here, but if a new parent—a member of Parliament—decided to take the full 12 months and didn't tick any of the boxes, but simply filled out that they weren't here and they weren't pretending to be ill but just looking after their child, what is the financial penalty? It's $120 after a certain number of days away, but say they did not come to Ottawa for that entire 12-month period. Of course, we don't sit every week. What is estimated reduction in pay they would incur as a result of doing that on their own and accurately reporting their attendance?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1145)[English]If there were one year of unjustifiable absences in a given year and there had been 21 days in the previous year, the penalty would be about 8% of the member's salary. The member would still have 92% of their salary in that scenario.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1145)[English]That number is exactly what people who work for members of Parliament receive in compensation. My understanding is that if a staff member of a member of Parliament goes on maternity leave, they're topped up above the EI to 92%. Currently, a member who reports accurately receives the exact same benefit as the person who works for them. That's very interesting to me.I understand what we're trying to do here, but I think we should have those numbers on the table. Even at that, the member is receiving 38% more in benefit than their constituents and exactly the same benefit as their employees, or those people who work for the public service. I throw that out there. It's a very interesting statistic and I think we need to bear in mind what we're proposing here.We are already thought to be very well-compensated, with very generous benefits, and this is another step in that direction. I think we just have to be careful that we don't do anything that unintentionally puts our members in a bad light. I'll leave it at that.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresneCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1150)[English]Thank you.Ms. Chagger.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Member of the Board of Internal Economy): (1150)[English] Thank you for the comments and the work you've done in making your proposal.I do know that in Ontario, the average working person who is paying into EI would receive their EI benefit at 55% or 60%—whatever it is. I know that we've now extended benefits so that the secondary parent, or however you want to refer to them, can also take up to six months.I do believe that if we want to adhere to the logic—which I think is well received—that members of Parliament not be better off than our constituents, perhaps offering a time that is proportionate to that benefit would be suitable.I know Minister Gould has written a letter with a recommendation of four months. I'd even be comfortable with five months, or five and a half months, less than six months, just on the point that Mr. Holland has made as well.I would like to throw some numbers out, because I think it would be important for us to offer a recommendation in response to what PROC has asked for. I think that would allow us to take a step in the right direction. Currently, there are no benefits when it comes to paternity leave, which is not okay if we're really trying to change the dynamics of the House of Commons and so forth.I really do like Mr. Strahl's idea of having a box added, regardless. I think that if it's additional time, they should be able to say that it's paternity leave. If somebody is needing to take a day off because of a sick child, they should be able to say that, because you're not ill when you're taking care of your children.It is really important, and we do need to shed some positive light in that world. So, I will throw out a number that's closer to Minister Gould's recommendation. I would be more comfortable with a period of between four and five and half months, but less than six months.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1150)[English]Thank you.Mr. Holland.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1150)[English]I completely concur with that timeline. I'd just make the observation that—because I also agree with Mr. Strahl—on the surface of it, you could leave the policy as was and it would seem as though the policy would be equal to what employees have today. In other words, the penalty is not all that large—8% is not that significant.The real issue is what we're broadcasting as acceptable. When you're charged, it isn't necessarily about the fact that you are having a reduction; it's kind of broadcasting that you're doing something wrong—that you're not attending the House and, therefore, you're being penalized.Conversely, if we say that you can have a year, then people are going to think that it is—excuse me, it's not a year; we're talking about 13 months.... People are going to come into the job, become pregnant and then say now they can disappear for 13 months—if we put the policy in—and I don't think that's appropriate, given the nature of the work and the demands of the House, particularly if there's a minority government time frame.I think having that period of four to six months—which is recommended as a minimum by international labour standards—is appropriate. It broadcasts that we do want to encourage members to be able to have children and families while they conduct this work. But it gives some parameters around what those expectations are, so that if somebody decides to take on this employment, then they will know what they're facing and what those expectations would be.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1150)[English] Thank you.I'd like to weigh into the discussion. I may actually be on a completely different side from all of my colleagues in a few of the areas. I think it's important that we recognize that this is not at all like a maternity benefit, and that we not try to compare it to such. We could very well have female members of Parliament who have a baby and literally a week later have events in their riding they feel they must attend, since not doing so could affect their chances of being re-elected. They don't have the opportunity to take a year off and just enjoy their child with no pressure: they know they'll either get their 66% or, in the case of a federal employee, a topped-up amount. These members of Parliament have to be working in their ridings. If they don't, they will be penalized and not be rehired for their jobs. I personally don't think we should be trying to compare the two.That said, I don't think that members of Parliament should then get less time when they are having that time with their child. I like the 12-month approach, because I think that members of Parliament should not be penalized because they're members of Parliament, and they will already have to be working in their constituencies. We're just talking about the work they're doing away from their families and their newborns.I would also suggest that fathers play a vital role. I think that male MPs whose wives are ready to have babies need those four weeks. Maybe they need those four weeks before that child is born; maybe they need to be at home. Maybe that baby's going to be born early. They don't know when that baby's going to be born. I think we should give some consideration to new dads who may need a bit of time before the child is born.I think that maybe we should look at sending this to PROC, because there are a lot of questions that need to be discussed and that more fulsome conversations need to be had. Mr. Holland, you brought up a good topic, which is minority Parliaments. If we're in a minority Parliament.... We haven't even discussed this scenario. Maybe this is not part of the conversation, but I'm going to throw it out there. Imagine that we're in a minority Parliament and one of the parties, either the opposition or the government, happens to have more females are getting ready to deliver babies during that particular time. What if the scenario is that one of the parties now has four or five women who are on their maternity time and not able to be in the House? Are we actually going to ask that there be a pairing? Is that something we'd just leave up to the whips and to the goodwill of each of the parties?You know, in politics, we could actually be talking about a government being defeated. I think there should be some discussion on that if we want to encourage not only females but also young people who might be at that age when they are having families. I think we're having a very good discussion. I like the idea of the box. What we're doing is giving members of Parliament a legitimate reason to be at home. You don't have to just say, “Oh, I'm just at home doing constituency work”, or, “I'm not feeling well”, when in fact you're not sick, but looking after your newborn child. I really think it's important that we give it that validity, value, and credibility that it should have.I think there are a lot of questions. I'm suggesting that we take the matter to PROC. Mr. Holland, you have something more to add, and then it will be Mr. Julian.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1155)[English]I think you raise an excellent point with respect to the position that a party could be in, and not only in a minority situation. You could have a very thin majority situation where the numbers would be impacted by members' having families. Therefore, as much as we have a policy in place, the policy effectively becomes irrelevant because the party's going to exert enormous pressure on those individuals to come back and be present for votes that might precipitate an election.I don't know, and maybe it's a question I could ask, because I don't think we can force pairing. You could have a sort of gentleman's agreement or an agreement in principle, but I don't believe there's any way to compel parties to observe that. For example, I think it would be entirely appropriate to have mandatory pairing, but I don't think there's any way of enforcing that. Am I correct in that?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1155)[English]Currently, there isn't. I want to point out that in the United Kingdom they did adopt a temporary standing order that allowed for proxy voting in situations in which members have parental obligations, which allows them to identify a substitute for the vote. It's a detailed standing order, and they've done that on a temporary basis.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1155)[English] The point that would make, first of all, is there's an expectation at PROC that we're going to give them some sort of direction. I think that's important.I'm very sensitive, Ms. Bergen, to the points you're raising. I think that the issue of pairing, of being able to assure that you're not creating a precarious situation in the chamber as a result of these policies, has to be considered. In its absence, it would frankly render this policy irrelevant, because it doesn't matter whether or not we say that somebody can be on maternity leave if there is a circumstance where their vote is demanded or there's going to be an election. We know what's going to happen.I don't think that any policy we recommend....There has to be something, and if we can make it in such a way that we can be assured that it would be enforced, I think we should look at it.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresneCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1200)[English]All right.I have Mr. Julian and then Ms. Chagger.MarkHollandHon.AjaxPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1200)[English]I think you pointed out, Madam Chair, that what we're actually talking about is two workplaces. There are two workplaces that every member of Parliament has. One is here, and currently, if you come here to Ottawa or if you miss that session, you're penalized by not being present in the House of Commons, but in no way does that have an impact on the constituency work that members of Parliament continue to do. There's no mythical MP who doesn't do work in the constituency, because somebody who doesn't do work in their constituency doesn't get re-elected. Members of Parliament are still working during this period. These parental obligations have to be balanced with that constituency work. All that's being suggested by this policy is that we stop penalizing them in the second workplace. The first workplace continues.With those considerations, I find this a very reasonable policy, and if we provided PROC with direction, then we could seek to get things implemented if we continue to talk about what this should actually mean and we compared it with other workplaces. I believe very strongly that we need to be raising parental leave provisions. I'm certainly sympathetic to raising those provisions in this country, but in the two workplaces right now, the first workplace continues and in the second workplace, hopefully, we would end the penalties.I think that's a very reasonable proposal. For all the members of Parliament from all parties whom I have seen working and going through the birth of a new child, they're all still working. Some of them hope not to have to come to Ottawa for a certain period of time, but currently they're being penalized if they do that. I think it's reasonable for us to adopt this policy and provide that direction to PROC so we can move on.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1200)[English]Thank you.Madam Chagger.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1200)[English]Just to confirm, Mr. Julian, you're stating that you're comfortable with this recommendation in its entirety.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1200)[English]Yes.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1200)[English]I think that's great as well, then.I just want to say that I do think this work has been done. PROC has studied this matter. They've asked this table, this board, for a recommendation. I think a unanimous recommendation should be offered to members of PROC. Then they would be able to table their report and it could be concurred in with all-party support and we would have movement.I think we're recognizing that this is definitely a conversation that has many different layers, and those conversations have to start somewhere. This is a step that I think needs to be taken. I think it speaks volumes. Those other conversations can definitely take place. I would totally support Mr. Julian's comments in saying that this should be the recommendation that we offer to PROC.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1200)[English]Mr. Strahl.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1200)[English]Could you enlighten us on whether there is a limit for illness, for instance? Essentially, we had members in the last Parliament who were elected and who found they had very serious diseases. Unfortunately, in those cases, they've since passed away, but sometimes a battle with cancer or something like that could go on for years, right? We've had those tragic cases here.I think what Ms. Bergen has reminded us of is that this is simply a way to justify your absence; it's not leave. Leave for someone in the private sector is just that; you see it all the time with maternity leave placements and things like that. They go away. They pack up their desk and they're gone for 12 months if they choose to do that. This is different, and obviously our constituents will be the judges, as they always are, of whether or not we have been away from this place too much. That's a reality. They don't care what box we tick. They might say, well, you missed too many important discussions, you missed too many.... We all make those choices when we travel each week, quite frankly.To let you answer my question, could you be on any of those three things—I always forget the middle one—the public or official business, the illness and...?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1205)[English] Service in the armed forces.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]Could you essentially be deployed for four years, be ill for four years or be on official business for four years and not have a single dollar deducted from your paycheque?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1205)[English]The short answer is yes. There's no time limit, and we are talking about valid justifications for absences from the chamber. In presenting this, it's not so much about leave but justification for an absence. There are no time limits provided for the categories of illness, public business and service in the armed forces.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]I'd suggest that's already more generous than any private sector arrangement.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1205)[English]Again, it's difficult to compare, because it's a different—Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]It is, so perhaps I started a bad trend there. I'm comfortable with this, but in terms of what we need, even though we have given our stamp of approval of it, I think PROC should be the body that sets regulation and deals with standing orders, regulation and legislation regarding the Parliament of Canada. I would be happy to concur with Ms. Chagger and Mr. Julian's comments.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresneCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1205)[English]Mr. Holland, you had something else you wanted to add.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1205)[English]Yes, I concur with that. I'm comfortable moving forward on that basis.I don't want to slow this down because I understand the need to make a recommendation to PROC and that it can make a decision quickly, and that we have a limited amount of time in our calendar. Perhaps in the future, however, I'd like to be able to address the issue of pairing and gaining assurance that there's actually a means to protect that leave. That also is in a situation of serious illness, right? We've seen this before when somebody is in very poor condition and they're being brought back into the chamber to vote because otherwise it would precipitate an election. To me that seems to me an unfair circumstance, and it's certainly unfair that somebody would be pulled. It makes sense that they're going to be doing work in their riding and are continuing to be in the riding, but to be pulled back in that period, I think, is problematic. I think if we could have that looked at and perhaps have something come back to us, then we could make a recommendation to PROC—Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1205)[English]We should make the recommendation now.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1205)[English]Okay. My problem is that I don't know what that mechanism is. I don't necessarily want to slow this process down, but I would be interested in understanding what tools would be at our disposal to be able to effect that—so that people who are on a serious medical leave are not in a situation where they're being dragged out of a hospital bed and into the chamber. If we could have something that assured that pairing were present.... I think it's a good time to have that conversation, frankly, because we're not in a heightened situation at the immediate moment with a minority government where there could be a very tight vote.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1205)[English]Mr. Strahl.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]I would think that that would be more appropriate for PROC to consider in a more comprehensive review of the Standing Orders. I know there have been members of our caucus who have believed that the whip should not have a role in pairing, for instance. That matter has been brought forward—that two members should be able to make that arrangement. I think we could, in looking at exactly what that meant.... I'm uncomfortable with any suggestion that we would start to erode the value or the importance of a member being present to vote in the House. I think you'd open Pandora's box there: “Well, if it's okay because I'm on maternity leave, then it's okay because I'm ill, and then it's okay because I need to be at home because I have a family emergency.” You would open it up to interpretation: “Why is your emergency or situation more valid than mine for having an automatic paired vote or an automatic proxy vote?" I think, if we're going to entertain it at all, it's a very, very serious discussion that members need a lot more time to consider than the 17 sitting days we have left in this Parliament.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1205)[English]All right.I would add that I do agree with Mr. Strahl. I know I'm the one who brought the issue forward, but I think we should keep it separate from this particular issue.I do think, though, that PROC should be looking at this. I would still like them to look at the issue I brought forward with respect to MPs who are fathers possibly being able to access that four weeks before the due date.I think there is consensus, then, that we refer this to PROC and let them look at it in greater detail.Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1210)[English] To clarify, Madam Chair, so we are supportive of the policy as written and referring it back to PROC?Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Acting Chair (Hon. Candice Bergen): (1210)[English]Yes, we're supportive of the report and the proposal, and we'd like to send it to PROC. Is that correct?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: All right, good. Thank you.We're going to suspend. We'll be going in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera]Maternity leaveMembers of ParliamentParental leavePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0151st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, May 2, 2019Le jeudi 2 mai 2019Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTMay 2, 2019CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 015 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 015 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 015 (Version officielle)015020520192019/05/02 11:35:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1135)[English]This meeting of the Board of Internal Economy is called to order.Our first item is the minutes of the previous meeting. Are they approved? Yes.Second, is there any business arising from the previous meeting?Madam Chagger.BardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1135)[English]Mr. Chair, I want to raise the issue of maternity and paternity leave for MPs. On March 1, I wrote to you in your capacity as chair of the board and asked that BOIE be seized with this issue. Members of PROC had released a report in November 2017 entitled “Support for Members of Parliament with Young Children”. The committee recommended that changes be made to the Parliament of Canada Act to add that pregnancy and paternal leave be reckoned as a day of attendance of the member. We took action with Bill C-74 and the budget implementation act. The PROC report was basically asking for guidance from the House of Commons administration for the purpose of implementing new rules, terms and conditions and/or modifying the current rules, terms and conditions that apply to members who are pregnant or on parental leave. I'd also like to acknowledge that there was a supplementary report from the official opposition to the PROC report, which recommended that politicians not be put in a better position than their constituents. I think it would be appropriate for the House administration, when developing options, to factor in both the report and the supplementary report. I'm hoping that the board will agree to ask the House administration to prepare some options that could be considered by both the board, as stewards of the House of Commons, and the committee on options for members who are pregnant or on parental leave.C-74, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 27, 2018 and other measuresMembers of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]I wonder if I could ask the law clerk to respond.[Translation]Can Mr. Dufresne answer the question?BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne (Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons): (1135)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker and Ms. Chagger. Indeed, as you point out, section 59.1 of the Parliament of Canada Act gives both Houses the authority to:make regulations, by rule or by order, respecting the provisions of this Act—or of regulations made under section 59—that relate to the attendance of members, or to the deductions to be made from sessional allowances, in respect of its own members who are unable to attend a sitting of that House by reason of(a) being pregnant; or(b) caring for a new-born or newly-adopted child of the member or for a child placed with the member for the purpose of adoption.So that power rests with the House. A way to bring this to the House would be a report from PROC with recommendations in terms of such regulations. The House administration is reviewing this issue. We will be prepared, should it go to PROC, to make some recommendations in terms of the content of such regulations.Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Madam Chagger.PhilippeDufresneBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1135)[English]I appreciate that. PROC has already released a report asking for recommendations. That's why I'm bringing it back to this table, to ask the House administration to prepare those options now that there has been a report by PROC members as well as the supplementary report. I think both reports should be considered when preparing those options, but I do believe that options should be prepared, being mindful of the situations and the legislation passed.Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Mr. Julian.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1135)[English]I would agree with Ms. Chagger on that. I believe what she's recommending is that we have this come back to the BOIE from administration prior to us rising. I think the timing is important as well to have those—Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]You said to have it come back to the Board of Internal Economy, not to PROC? I thought she was suggesting that she'd like recommendations to go to PROC first. Is that wrong? Members of ParliamentParental leavePeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1135)[English]I thought you were talking about the BOIE. Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1135)[English]PROC released a report in November 2017 asking for recommendations.Members of ParliamentParental leavePeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Right.Members of ParliamentParental leaveBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1135)[English]There has also been a supplementary report to ensure that members are not put in a better position than constituents. I believe that should be factored into providing recommendations to the board as stewards of—Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Oh, it's to the board; okay. I thought you meant that they were looking for recommendations to be made back; they'd asked for the recommendations and the administration could make them directly back to PROC and therefore not have to go through the step of having it here. But I'm open to what....Again, from what Mr. Dufresne has told us, essentially, I don't think it's within the jurisdiction of the board to make these kinds of regulations. It is the House. That's under the advice of PROC, but PROC has asked for recommendations— Members of ParliamentParental leaveBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1140)[English]To clarify, if I may, Mr. Chair, yes, PROC has asked for recommendations. I, as a member of this board, would also like to see those recommendations. Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Okay.Ms. Bergen first, then Mr. Strahl.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1140)[English]I'm just thinking; PROC did the report prior to the legislation, and then, after the legislation, Ms. Chagger came here and asked if the Board of Internal Economy.... You wrote a letter, and then it was recommended that it go back to PROC. I'm just wondering if we're missing that PROC step right now, where PROC, subsequent to the legislation, will now look at what kind of recommendations they would suggest for changes, or whether it's felt that their report encompassed what the legislation covered. I'm wondering if we could get clarification on that.Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1140)[English] I would say that the legislation responded to the request of PROC. Now we just need options as to how we proceed. Members of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl, and then I'm going to ask Mr. Dufresne to educate us a bit. BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1140)[English] I'd like to get clarity as well. I believe, Mr. Speaker, you have replied to Ms. Chagger with the indication that.... I know that the royal we wants to deal with this, but I think we need to determine who should be asking for those recommendations. Are we asking for recommendations that we then give to PROC, or should PROC be asking for those recommendations that they then report back to the House? I think we're all in agreement that we want to address this matter. I think we just want to make sure we're doing it in a manner consistent with the law and your guidance on this matter. That's simply where we are, wanting to know the right path.Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]I'm going to ask, Mr. Dufresne, has the procedure and House affairs committee, or PROC as we call it, already asked for these recommendations? Is there any difficulty before it goes to the procedure and House affairs committee in sharing those with members of the board or if members wish to have it discussed here, even though it's not the jurisdiction of the board to make these regulations or to recommend them to the House? Members of ParliamentParental leaveMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[English]Ultimately, the decision needs to be made by the House in terms of adopting those recommendations. The way to bring it to the House seems to be to go through PROC. This board could make a request to PROC to consider this matter with the view of presenting recommendations to PROC and to hearing recommendations from the House administration. The House administration could make those recommendations to the board prior to, and then that could become the basis for the referral to PROC. There are options in terms of sequencing. The board could immediately request that PROC look into this and offer the House administration as being available to provide advice. If the board wishes to see this advice prior to it going to PROC, the board could ask the House administration to bring it here. Ultimately, at some point, in my view, we need to go to PROC and then to the House. Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English] First of all, isn't PROC in a sense already seized of this in that it has worked on this? I guess it's completed its report, but it's raised the issue and asked for recommendations. I guess the question is, does the board wish to deal with this rather than have the administration report directly to PROC and for the board to ask PROC to deal with this? Does the board wish to have a discussion before then on the recommendations before it goes to the procedure and House affairs committee?Ms. Chagger. Members of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresneBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1140)[English]I would definitely consider that. I do believe, since PROC is asking for recommendations, that they should be responded to. Since BOIE is a consensus body, if we could look at the recommendations, we might be able to develop consensus and be able to move this along, which I think is important to do. Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Ms. Bergen.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1140)[English]Are there currently recommendations? What would the timeline be if that were the option that we choose, that you would prepare recommendations, we would form a consensus, and then send it back to PROC?Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[English]We will adjust to the board's timelines. I understand the next board meeting is scheduled.Members of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]The first question is, are there recommendations already prepared?Members of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1140)[English]They're not finalized. We're looking at the issue. We will complete it. If it's the board's request that it come back here, we will do so. Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]I think that's what the board is asking for. Is that right?Ms. Bergen. Members of ParliamentParental leavePhilippeDufresneCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1140)[English]I think so. I think that, in order to accomplish what we want, there could probably be a bit of work as you're preparing those recommendations working with our teams, if possible, so that we'll discuss them here. I think it would be good to give you the time to prepare them and then bring them here. Give us time to look at them.Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]It seems to me that leaves the option open to the members of the board that, if everyone agrees on what's proposed, to have them go directly to PROC and not have to come here, if everyone is already agreed. That's always an option, should the members let me know that's their wish.Members of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1145)[English]That sounds good. Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]For the time being, we'll ask for the recommendations to be brought to the next board meeting.Is there anything else on this? Ms. Chagger. Members of ParliamentParental leaveCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1145)[English]To reference Ms. Bergen's comments, if, as they're being prepared, they want to keep our teams in the loop, it might make for a smoother process to see if we're close or not. Members of ParliamentParental leaveGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]Absolutely.Thank you.Is there anything else from the previous meeting?Seeing nothing, we're on to number three, updating rules respecting political party executives. [Translation]We have the law clerk with us.ExecutivesPolitical partiesBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1145)[Translation]Law clerk—or greffier législatif in French—Mr. Chair.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[Translation]Also with us is Mr. Parent and Mr. Paquette.Gentlemen, the floor is yours.PhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.This item pertains to updating the rules respecting political party executives. The Members By-Law prohibits members and House officers from employing or contracting with political party executives.According to the by-law, party leaders must also provide the names of all political party executives to the House Administration.[English] This concept of “political party executive” exists in the Members By-law, and it is currently defined as someone who has been identified under the Canada Elections Act as “an officer, auditor or chief agent...of a political party” or someone who “holds an office or occupies a position identified in the constitution of a registered political party”.Some of the issues that have arisen in light of these definitions and this requirement of providing a list are that the political parties have varied constitutions and include varying levels of individuals. There has been some uncertainty about whether “political party executive” would include members of an electoral district association. There have been clarifications given that it does not, but the language of the bylaw currently could lead to some confusion. Likewise, the provision of the list of members has proven unwieldy, and the sections of the Canada Elections Act are no longer up to date given amendments to the act.What we are recommending here is to amend the bylaw so that the only definition for “political party executive” is the one that is in the Canada Elections Act, that is, a list that is clear. There is a registry that is public. It would do away with the uncertainty in terms of political parties' constitutions. We're also recommending that the bylaw be amended to update the sections of the Canada Elections Act more in the nature of housekeeping, and that would remove the need for party leaders to provide the list of individuals, because that list would be the one from Elections Canada.[Translation]That's what we are recommending. I would be happy to answer any questions you have and accept your approval should you wish to adopt the recommendation.ExecutivesPolitical partiesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]Are there any questions or comments? Is it the will of the board to adopt these recommendations?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: That's adopted.[Translation]Thank you very much.We will now hear from Charles Robert, Clerk of the House of Commons, on the 2019-22 strategic plan for the House.[English]Before we go ahead, do members wish to have a presentation? The question is, if members have looked at this already, they may or may not be already content with it, so would they like to give an indication of whether they want to have the presentation or whether they want to agree to this and go onto the next thing?An hon. member: Approved.Hon. Geoff Regan: We're agreed to this?Mr. Julian.ExecutivesHouse of Commons Strategic PlanPolitical partiesPhilippeDufresnePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1145)[English]Does the presentation include any new information from what's already been distributed?House of Commons Strategic PlanGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert (Clerk of the House of Commons): (1145)[English] No.House of Commons Strategic PlanPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]All right, then?Sorry, Mr. Clerk. Mr. Charles Robert: I'm good with that.Hon. Geoff Regan: We adopt and approve your recommendation on the strategic plan and move on to number five. This is the use of House resources with respect to a former member's secondary residence.[Translation]I will now give the floor to Mr. Paquette, Mr. Dufresne and Mr. Fernandez. House of Commons Strategic PlanHousingParliamentariansCharlesRobertJoséFernandezJoséFernandezJosé-FernandezInterventionMr. José Fernandez (Deputy Chief Financial Officer): (1150)[Translation]I'm not speaking now. The first two will be speaking.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[Translation]My apologies.JoséFernandezDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1150)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I am here to present the findings of the House Administration's review on the use of House resources by a former member. The review focused on the member's secondary residence and related expenses from 2012 to 2016, while he was still a member.On January 23, 2019, the Speaker received a letter from a member asking the House Administration to review the use of House Resources by the former member.[English] The current policies allow the members whose constituency is not located in the national capital region to designate a primary residence in the constituency or in the national capital region, and establish a secondary residence additional to their primary residence. Expenses for the secondary residence may be charged under the travel status expense account. This allows members to defray some of their additional costs of maintaining that secondary residence.Furthermore, in the current policy, a primary residence is defined as a residence ordinarily occupied by the member, available for the member's occupancy at all times, and its main purpose cannot be to generate income. The current policy also provides criteria to help determine which residency to declare as primary. That is, members must consider various criteria such as which residence they will declare on their income tax returns, in which province they vote, have a health card, a driver's licence and register their vehicle, and what living arrangements they will have for their spouse and dependants.Although the current policy has been in effect since May 2016, the former member's secondary residence expenses were reviewed while considering the board policies and bylaws that were in effect during the period of 2012 to 2016, which is the period in question when he was a member. Prior to April 2013, the applicable bylaws and policies defined that primary residence as a residence other than a seasonal or recreational dwelling. They did not specify that members had to provide supporting documentation showing their primary residence was their ordinary place of residence or was available for their use at all times. Once having met the requirements outlined by the bylaws, it remained the members' discretion to decide the location of their primary residence.In June 2015 the board approved several changes to that policy relating to secondary residence and per diem expenses. These changes modernized the residency policy by revising the definition of a primary and secondary residence. They required that members provide that supporting documentation clarifying ownership or rental of their residence. They required that members declare at the start of every parliamentary session any changes and which one of the residences is the primary residence and which one was a secondary residence, and allowed members to claim those secondary expenses only if they maintained a primary residence that meets the definitions that are in the policies.Finally, at its meeting in 2016 the board approved the criteria to help determine which residency members would declare as their primary residence. The House administration has reviewed this matter and can report that the former member claimed secondary residence and per diem expenses while in the national capital region, and claimed expenses for travel between Ottawa and his constituency during that same period. The House administration has reviewed all the relevant proof of the primary and secondary residences that supported the expenses claimed by the former member and is satisfied that they all met the requirements that were in effect during that period of time. The board, however, does have the exclusive authority to determine whether the use of the House resources by the member is or was proper. Mr. Chair, this concludes my presentation.HousingParliamentariansGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Strahl.DanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1150)[English] First of all, I'd like to thank House administration for their review that found in all time periods and at all times Mr. Kenney abided by all the requirements that were in effect. Quite frankly, this board should be very concerned that this process was engaged for what can only be determined to have been partisan considerations to affect the ability of Mr. Kenney to conduct his campaign to become premier of Alberta, which he did with 55% of the vote in a historic victory in his province.To think that any member of Parliament, currently sitting or not, could be subject to a partisan investigation request going back, in this case a number of years, based on the flimsiest of evidence by people with partisan interests, I think puts us all at risk, quite frankly, that at some point in the future someone will come to this board demanding an investigation, and that we're now a public body, damages the reputation of a member of Parliament simply being under investigation, a former member of Parliament who is no longer able to defend himself in the House. I think we should be very concerned with that.Quite frankly, it also questions the integrity and the competence of our independent public servants who evaluate each one of our claims to have 12 or 13 years of those claims suddenly questioned for partisan political purposes. We count on those independent financial management officers to ensure compliance, and when there is not compliance, members are immediately informed and have the opportunity to come into compliance or to pay back monies they should not have charged to taxpayers.Quite frankly, I think this was a very disturbing case, because we can all play this game. We can go back to times when members of the Liberal Party were found to have been illegally claiming housing allowances. If that's what we want this board to become, where these sorts of things come forward and we turn these things into an opportunity to settle old political scores, this will quickly devolve into a body that is not as it is intended, which is to be a consensus body that looks in a non-partisan way at the governance of this place.I thank the House administration again for finding very clearly that Mr. Kenney did nothing wrong. I'm just disappointed that we arrived at this point where his name was intentionally dragged through the mud for a number of months for partisan political purposes.HousingParliamentariansGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]Mr. Holland.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Chief Government Whip): (1155)[English]Mr. Speaker, I understand the concern. Particularly when in a public forum there are questions about expenses, there is an important need to verify the veracity of those expenses. Sometimes that process yields, as this one did, that the policies were appropriately followed. There's a question with secondary expenses in this instance, whether or not staying in your mom's basement constituted a principal residence.I think it's important to explore the fact that those questions were out there. There have been instances where members have been found to have not utilized resources appropriately, so when things are raised in a public forum, I think it's important that those matters be vetted. I'm satisfied with the conclusions here, and effectively those questions are answered in this matter, as far as I'm concerned.HousingParliamentariansGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]Ms. Bergen.MarkHollandHon.AjaxCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1155)[English]I would concur with what my colleague Mr. Strahl has stated, and the fact that Mr. Holland just said what he did about Mr. Kenney and his mother is, frankly, shameful that we have come to this place at this really important body that has worked in a consensus. I think we have to think very seriously about what happened and how we were a part of it. I think we need to make a decision, regardless of the political party that is trying to attack their opponent, that we cannot go down this route. I would caution everyone, because we could all play this game. We could start talking about Judy Sgro or Wayne Easter giving their condos to their kids and then charging the taxpayer rent. We could rehash a lot of things, but that is not what we are here to do. I think we need to have a very hard look at this and not go down this route again. Thank you.HousingParliamentariansGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English] Thank you.There's no recommendation here. There's nothing else you require from us. I thank colleagues for their comments on this matter.[Translation]We now move on to item 6, the use of House resources with respect to a member's designated website.Mr. Paquette, you may go ahead.HousingMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansWeb sitesCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1200)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I am presenting the findings of the House Administration's review on the use of House resources with respect to a member's designated website. On January 29, 2019, the Speaker received a letter from a member asking that the House Administration look into the matter.[English]The Members By-law specifies that funds, goods and services provided by the House of Commons may only be used for carrying out members' parliamentary functions. It also states that the activities related to the solicitation of memberships of political parties and activities related to meetings of electoral district associations are not deemed to be parliamentary functions; therefore, House resources cannot be used for these purposes.Under the current board policy, members must designate one website as their official site, and only that website, whether it is paid for through the member's office budget or not, must be compliant with the conditions set out in the Members’ Allowances and Services Manual. It may also be linked to the Parliament of Canada website and it may also be used in their advertising ten percenters and their householders.The House administration has reviewed this matter and can report that as part of the administration's periodic review, the member's designated website was evaluated a total of five times between July 2016 and January 2019, and the House administration identified restricted content on the member's website on three separate occasions during this period.At its most recent review, in January 2019, two pages which contained content related to solicitation of memberships of a political party and an invitation to nomination meetings were identified. The House administration has not contacted the member since the last evaluation; however, these two pages have since been taken down. The member has not claimed or charged any expenses related to his website posting to his member's office budget since the last general election in 2015. There is a letter addressed to the Speaker. The member has affirmed that these expenses were incurred by his member's district riding association, which is not restricted under the board's currently policies.Since the House administration first identified restricted content on the member's website in June 2017, there have been several ten percenters and householders all featuring the designated websites that were produced and distributed to the member's constituency. The content of these documents was all found to be compliant with the board's current policies related to printed materials; however, the House administration is unable to confirm whether the member's designated website featured restricted content while the website appeared in these documents.I will ask Monsieur Dufresne to provide some options for consideration for the board.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1200)[Translation]When the Board of Internal Economy is of the view that the Members By-Law or requirements in the manual have not been complied with, the board has a number of tools at its disposal. It can ask the member to take corrective action. It can ask the House Administration to develop a process to issue reminders and ensure follow-up. It can also decide that a financial reimbursement is in order.[English]In this case the board, faced with this situation, has a number of options. It may wish to ask the House administration to provide periodic reminders to members on this issue in the sense of the use of the designated website. It may ask the House administration to further develop processes in terms of putting in place mechanisms whereby members would be given notices of concerns and opportunities to address them. If it finds there has been a breach, they can set an amount for compensation.Those are the options the board has, and we're happy to assist.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesDanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[English]I have Mr. Holland, and then Mr. Julian.PhilippeDufresneMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1200)[English]Mr. Speaker, I have some sympathy for this because I think the rules are somewhat opaque right now. Things have evolved such that there's a number of different online fora that people can advocate for the work that they're doing in Parliament. It becomes complicated when you have something like a free website or a website that is paid for by an electoral district association, or a Facebook page which is provided completely free, or an Instagram page, where you're talking about your work. But then, when you drive traffic to it, I think that becomes the issue.I think we're going to have to be clear on where that boundary is. I recommend setting in place fines but on a prospective basis once we've made these rules very clear. I'll suggest to you where I think the difference lies.If your electoral district association pays for your website and that website simply talks about your work as a parliamentarian and it can also talk about your work in the constituency on a partisan basis, I think there's no problem. When you put that into a householder or when you use House resources to advertise that, then you're using House resources to promote it and therefore to drive traffic to something that could raise money, drive people to fundraisers or things of that nature. I think that is the concern here, if I understand it. If I were to go one step further—and I think this a more salient point that isn't addressed here—if we take a look at a medium like Facebook and you use your House of Commons resources to buy targeted Facebook ads to get more people to like your Facebook page, then you subsequently use the people who have been added to that Facebook page as a result of House resources targeting those people to then invite them to a fundraiser or invite them to a nomination meeting or a rally for an election purpose, then this is where I think we have a problem. If you're using House resources to promote something, that then pulls it into the domain of being a vehicle of your job as a parliamentarian and therefore it has the usual restrictions around not being able to use it to promote fundraisers and things of this nature, it's an important boundary to keep. This is particularly in view of the fact that a lot of advertising is moving in that direction.I don't think it's particularly clear to members, as it would not have been to Mr. Angus, that, hey, look, my EDA is paying for their website so no one should be hassling them about this. The answer is that they're using House resources to promote it. I think we have to be very clear with that, and it has to extend beyond websites. Giving anything in the way of a punishment up to this point would be unfair because it is not as clear as I think it needs to be. On a prospective basis, we need to be very clear and we should have fines. I suggest that they be escalating because if the fine is small enough, then somebody can say that it's worth it. If they can add 10,000 people to their Facebook and they can do a lot of fundraising off it, then frankly, it's worth some small fine.That would be my recommendation: to come back with fines on a prospective basis that would be escalating and a policy that would relate to more than websites but also include Instagram, Facebook or other digital channels that people could use, where they would use House resources to promote it. That line has to be drawn exceptionally clearly.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Mr. Julian.MarkHollandHon.AjaxPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1205)[English] As the new guy on the block, when I got my book, I looked at a few dozen MPs' websites and I found a number of them that had fundraising in one way or another.I'll ask a question, and then I'll have a comment afterwards for Mr. Paquette and Mr. Dufresne. We do this compliance check once a year, I understand. I'm interested in knowing what percentage, in doing that compliance check for websites, are turned up that are non-compliant. I would agree with Mr. Holland. It's a much larger issue. It seems, from my quick look at a number of websites, that it's something that happens very frequently.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]We have Mr. Ben Moussa who can answer some of the technical aspects from the IT perspective.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabySoufianeBen MoussaSoufianeBen MoussaSoufiane-BenMoussaInterventionMr. Soufiane Ben Moussa (Chief Technology Officer, Information Services, House of Commons): (1205)[English] Essentially, we check 30 members a month and we ensure that every member is at least checked once a year. Last year, we did around 449 checks of websites.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1205)[English] Of the 449 checks, how many did you find that were non-compliant on websites?Members of ParliamentWeb sitesSoufianeBen MoussaSoufianeBen MoussaSoufianeBen MoussaSoufiane-BenMoussaInterventionMr. Soufiane Ben Moussa: (1205)[English]Seventy-four.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1205)[English]Seventy-four? Okay.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesSoufianeBen MoussaSoufianeBen MoussaSoufianeBen MoussaSoufiane-BenMoussaInterventionMr. Soufiane Ben Moussa: (1205)[English]About 16%.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1205)[English]Okay. That's a big number. That's important. Thank you for that. I think that's very helpful.Getting back to Mr. Holland's point about having in place not just the periodic reminders, but looking forward to how we will deal with the 74 cases of non-compliance we have, I think that's something the BOIE should be looking at.Mr. Holland has talked about social media, and that becomes a lot more difficult. That would be, I think, a major shift in terms of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. I would certainly need to talk with folks to have a better understanding. Certainly for websites, it seems to me that it makes sense to have in place measures that ensure compliance, particularly if we have 74 cases in the last year—I would assume probably from all parties, and maybe independents too—of non-compliance out of the 449 checks.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesSoufianeBen MoussaGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Ms. Bergen.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1210)[English]Thank you. I just have two points.I would agree with Mr. Holland in this case. I can sympathize with Mr. Angus thinking that if his EDA is paying for it, then it would be okay to do fundraising, and it would just be looking at him linking it to his House of Commons resources. Certainly anybody who has a website paid for by the House of Commons, I think we all know you cannot get donations or memberships off of our House of Commons website. If any of our members don't know that, I think our whips should be clearly reminding us that you can't take donations out of your office, you can't sell memberships out of our office, and you can't be collecting from your House of Commons website. I think whips and parties need to remind their members.On the issue that Mr. Holland brought up.... It's interesting. I survey my riding and I've been an MP for almost 11 years. Any time I've asked my constituents where they get the majority of information and news, up until the last two years, it had always been TV or newspapers. It is now primarily online. It's like Facebook...all of that's become a new community.If I'm at an event that I have organized—it's not a political event; it's maybe a coffee meeting with constituents and stakeholders—and if during the course of that meeting somebody says to me, “I really like what you're doing and I want to help you or maybe help in a campaign,” I wouldn't take that information now, but we obviously don't say, “Don't speak to me about that,” just like we couldn't on Facebook. We're at a very odd place where we have to figure it out. We have now a new gathering place, which is Facebook, Instagram, the social media. How do we realistically—using some common sense, because it isn't all linear—reconcile that so we're not using House of Commons resources to do political work and at the same time we're not shutting out people? This is now their community. They're not coming and meeting with us in our offices. They're speaking to us via social media.I don't have the answer for it, but I don't think it's as black and white as.... I can have my EDA pay for my Facebook page, or any advertising—because I don't pay for the page—but then if they're looking at the work that I'm doing as an MP, how do we separate that? I'm just suggesting it isn't entirely black and white, but I'm not sure where we land, where it's responsible but also where we have some common sense in the decision.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Mr. Holland.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1210)[English] I'll try to cut the line. I agree that it's difficult. I think that members of Parliament who are going to have Facebook pages are going to have other sorts of digital presence, and that's fully appropriate, and it's obviously fully appropriate to be partisan as well, including fundraising and organizing of events, so I'm not suggesting that at all.The line that I'm drawing, and I'll just be very explicit to make the point, is, let's say I took $5,000 of House resources, advertising, and paid for targeted Facebook ads to drive up the number of people who are following me on Facebook. Then I work with my EDA with those new people who have just been added as a result of the budget that I've taken from the House of Commons to drive up my numbers to promote a fundraiser in my riding. I'm then deriving a direct benefit from the utilization of House resources.The line I would draw is to say that, if you use a Facebook page or a digital medium, and you drive traffic to it, so in other words, you buy that traffic or you promote it in a householder or a ten percenter, then you are converting that into a House asset. If you make the decision as an EDA to purchase the eyeballs using EDA dollars, it's different.You're absolutely right, Candice, that in the course of our business.... Let's say I have a particular image—and this may be hard for members to believe—or I have a particularly eloquent speech in the House of Commons, and I post that online, and it drives a lot of traffic, and it drives a lot of people to like my page, which I then subsequently use to raise money. It's not a perfect line, but I think that we need some kind of line because—I don't do it—it would be a remarkably effective strategy for me to take all of my advertising money, spend it on Facebook, and then work in conjunction with my EDA to capitalize that for fundraising purposes and for electoral purposes.Today, as I read the rules, there's really nothing stopping me from doing that. That should worry us a lot more than whether or not a householder is driving somebody to a website. Maybe I shouldn't even say this out loud, because it would be such an effective strategy, but the fact that this strategy exists on the table today could be capitalized with enormous effect. I'm not sure that we want to leave that out there, because I think that it's really not the intention of what the allocation we're given is for.Let's face it. If the rules don't block something, somebody with more ambiguous morals who is industrious will fill that grey space in utilizing this. That's why I'm saying that this is an opportunity in the ambiguity of where we are today to cut clearer and more defined lines here before it becomes a larger problem, and there's a greater move towards this digital world than a smaller one. I think we all acknowledge that. That's why I think it's incredibly important for this body.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]Ms. Chagger.MarkHollandHon.AjaxBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1215)[English]I want to echo some of the comments as to the rule we hear often that you can't do indirectly what you can't do directly. I think that's where the concern is being raised. Are we ensuring that there is some guidance available? I put out ten percenters in my riding. I thought it would be important for me to share with everyone that I was hosting a blood drive so people could come and donate blood, which I thought was great, but the rules did not permit me to ask people to come and donate blood, because it was asking for donations. They were not political donations. It was for blood, for the good of the people of the country and for saving lives.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]Were your campaign workers involved? BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1215)[English]I don't know how your blood bank works.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]I was just kidding.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1215)[English]Ours doesn't work like that, not in Waterloo at least.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1215)[English]It's the mind of a Speaker.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1215)[English] I think it's important that there are systems in place and perhaps have a mechanism where if there is a little bit of grey, to be able to vet. I think what we're seeing here is colleagues will put out these letters and then people are being challenged and the system and the rules are changing. Even though this MP has been around for a long time, social media is a new norm that we're trying to grasp and come to terms with.How do we ensure there are some parameters and some guidance available so that members of Parliament can do their due diligence? That might be to ask, like we do with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, is it appropriate for me to write such a letter or not; is this appropriate for me to post or not. Perhaps there should be some system in place where there is a resource that you can ask to confirm, and rather than be reactionary, be proactive.I think our world is going to become more and more social media-focused. Technology is going to lead to new realities. New tools are going to become available. How do we ensure that our rules are in the 21st century and we're mindful of where the country and world is going when it comes to communications?We've just brought our calendars and householders into full colour. That took time. How can we make sure that this conversation is not just about this issue but as to the direction of where we're going so perhaps we can be ahead of the challenges we will be facing? I really do think we might want to check out if it's okay to donate blood or not and was that the intention of the rules or are the rules perhaps casting a net into greater areas than we intended. It might be worth checking that out. Members of ParliamentWeb sitesMarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]Mr. Strahl. BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1215)[English]Tangentially, I think we did address some of those third party website donation restrictions with our communicating with constituents changes to the ten percenter program in the last meeting. I believe there was some relaxing of the rules, in terms of putting a Red Cross flood relief link on our products, etc. Putting that aside, I think we have to be very careful here that this is a comprehensive review. This cannot be done in a haphazard manner. I think there are unintended consequences or complications that you might have. Does a public figure who runs for office, who has 100,000 Facebook followers when they come into office, lose all of that personal branding? Do they lose all the ability to communicate with those people because they're suddenly elected as a member of Parliament? Can they never use that for a partisan purpose?I think as well there has been some clarification offered by Elections Canada on what counts against a spending limit or what is permissible to use when it comes to social media. We need to be in close consultation with Elections Canada to ensure that we are doing things that are compliant with their rulings or their predeterminations that they have now. If we get into it and we suddenly make declarations that certain products cannot be used.... Certainly at this point in the game, six months before an election, I think Mr. Holland would probably have a riot in his caucus. Similarly, everyone would be concerned.We've operating under a certain set of assumptions, rules and understandings and to now say that we're going to change course or prohibit things that have previously been allowed, I think would be very difficult at the end of a Parliament. This might be something that should be looked at at the beginning of a new Parliament so everyone is clear that the rules are all laid out when they start this process.As to this website in particular, I would agree that no further action needs to be taken other than making all members aware. Again, I think this is another one. I think Mr. Angus quite clearly in his reply indicates that he feels the intention behind this letter was again to damage him politically. Look, we can all find websites from our political opponents. I have one in front of me right now. I'm not going to name the individual who has a “Donate” button and a big picture of one of the more photogenic leaders in this place. The donate page comes up. I will give that to Mr. Holland after this meeting. Again, we are approaching an election and I think these are clearly politically motivated interventions here. If Mr. Sheehan actually wanted taxpayers to be protected, he could have gone to Mr. Julian's whip and said, “This is an issue and I would like you to deal with it.” Instead, now that we're in public, this is designed to politically damage Mr. Angus. Again, if this is what we are to become, I think it will become a three-ring circus and not what we intended to be here.We want to make sure the rules are followed for everyone, not that we're using this to now score political points. We have many committees at which this is a primary objective. I'm hoping that doesn't become the norm here.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English]Mr. Holland and then Mr. Julian.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1220)[English] Thank you.For the purposes of this discussion, dividing this into two parts makes a great deal of sense, further to Mr. Strahl's point.I think we can say this matter is closed. The members advised this shouldn't be done, and that we send a reminder of the existing policy to members and encourage whips to have conversations with their caucus to ensure compliance, but it raises a very important issue, one which I think we have to draw a line on.To make the last point on this, my view, just as Mr. Strahl said, is that it shouldn't come into force until a new Parliament, just to make it as clean as possible, but ideally, this body would deal with it before, if possible, so the new Parliament could start immediately with a fresh slate. I'd make the following types of distinctions. I have about 30,000 followers on Facebook. If I decide to use my House of Commons budget and House of Commons resources to promote that Facebook page, it gets converted to a House of Commons resource. If that Facebook page is only ever paid for by my EDA, I can do whatever I want with it. I can fundraise on it. I can be politically active on it. I'm not suggesting that we have this full debate today, but I am saying that we have to have an understanding because, frankly—and I'll end on this point—the amount of traffic you're going to get from putting your website on a householder, the number of people you're going to get to donate is really not a big deal compared to using a medium like Facebook with your advertising dollars to drive traffic to it and to monetize that thereafter. It's a completely different tactic and it would be highly effective. Right now it's the Wild West on that, and I don't think people have realized the extent to which that's the case. I agree changing the rules midstream...but I think that we need to have some rules for when this place comes back, because that digital world is moving at a very rapid pace, and right now this is a big hole.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]It seems to me that, among other things, we need to clarify whether you can promote your Facebook or Twitter page on your own designated website or in your printed material that's paid for by the House, if you use any of those in partisan ways.I think that may not be clear to members right now. I think we need to make that very clear.Mr. Julian.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesMarkHollandHon.AjaxPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1225)[English]I think it's been a good discussion, and I think we have some consensus for the websites. I'd like to follow up on comments that Mr. Strahl made. This was a complaint that came forward from another MP to Mr. Angus, but we have found out that 74 MPs haven't been compliant in the past year. If this body became a place where political parties just threw out complaints left and right, we would have 74 complaints for administration to investigate. That involves an incredible amount of time. I don't think any of us want to see the BOIE go down that road.Coming back to the broader picture, about a quarter of the House of Commons hasn't been compliant in the past year. For their websites, how do we best make sure there is compliance? I think having a clear communication—and I agree with everyone about letting the whips know. Whips have a lot of influence and they can help with compliance. That's going to be very important, making sure there's a reminder to members, and then I think that having a graduated series of consequences makes sense for websites.As far as social media is concerned, as I mentioned earlier, I think there are a lot of ramifications. I am certainly going to do some research at my end, and I think for today's purposes, we've had a good discussion on the website issue.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]It sounds to me, if I'm not mistaken, that when you look at the options presented in the conclusion today, members seem to be wanting to provide periodic reminders to members about the rules that apply. It says: That the House Administration provide periodic reminders to Members regarding the Members By-law and policy requirements not to use House of Commons resources, whether directly or indirectly, for soliciting membership to a political party or for activities that are related to a meeting of an electoral district association;In itself, is that satisfactory or not?Mr. Strahl.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1225)[English] In terms of the question of Mr. Holland, I think both of his interventions have been addressing, whether directly or indirectly, that portion of this. I think that's what's in question here, so I don't know if we can come to a conclusion. I think we're all in agreement with the idea that we want to be reminded of our obligations, but if we want to get into what constitutes an indirect use of a House of Commons resource, I think you're opening up that Pandora's box that we've all identified here.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English]If the House administration gives reminders of what the rule is, as it has presently been stated in the past, members would accept to be—Members of ParliamentWeb sitesMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1230)[English] On that, I don't know.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English]Mr. Holland.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1230)[English]Not to belabour the point, but I think it's an important one. Let me ask the question directly.Let's say I decided to spend $5,000 today on targeted Facebook ads to increase the number of likes on my Facebook page. Does that, under the rules today, mean that the Facebook page is then effectively a product of the House and I would no longer be able to advertise political partisan events on it? I don't think there's a member in the House who knows that it's the rule today.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1230)[English]I think that's an issue that would come to the board. I don't think that's an issue that has been determined to this date. You have the bylaws that set out the rules and the principles on areas where there may be developing fact situations or situations that are identified as requiring clarification. The role of the board is to bring that clarity to those matters.One of the suggestions you have made is for the House administration to perhaps look into this with a view to having clarification of that in the next Parliament, if not earlier.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesMarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English]To step into what may be dangerous and tricky ground, it seems to me that the public would not want to see members being able to use public resources to advance their partisan, political.... The problem is that what you're describing to me, I can't see the public wanting that to be acceptable: using dollars provided by the House in order to develop the membership of your riding association.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesPhilippeDufresneMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1230)[English]I'm sure there has been no audit of whether or not this activity is occurring. Whether the public wants it or not, I think it is inappropriate. However, the reality, as I understand it today, is that there are no rules against it. For all I know, it's happening today in the absence of rules. I'm not hearing that there is any validation of what's happening there, which means that this could very well be a widespread practice today. I don't know, and we don't have any guidance on it.The only suggestion I'm making is that recommendations on this matter come back to the BOIE so that we can provide clarity in this respect.Members of ParliamentWeb sitesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English] I think we can do that. Okay? Agreed. Thank you very much.We will provide reminders on the basis of the present rules. The administration will come back with recommendations as discussed here, including, I think, for the idea of graduated consequences. We've heard that from a number of members. There will be no further action in relation to the complaint in this particular instance. We do have to respond and let them know that, obviously.We now have to go in camera for a number of items that require us to be in camera. We'll pause for a moment while we do that.[Proceedings continue in camera]Members of ParliamentWeb sitesMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0141st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, April 11, 2019Le jeudi 11 avril 2019Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTApril 11, 2019CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 014 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 014 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 014 (Version officielle)014110420192019/04/11 11:45:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1140)[English]I call to order this meeting of the Board of Internal Economy.I want to welcome Mr. Julian back to the Board of Internal Economy.PeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (Member of the Board of Internal Economy): (1140)[Translation]Thank you.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]It's the first time in this building. First, of course, we have the minutes of the previous meeting. Are those approved?Mr. Strahl.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1140)[English]There's one thing I'd flag for the table. I would like to get perhaps a briefing for the staff or ourselves, although not necessarily at the table here, to get an idea of what the governance structure looks like for the Centre Block. I know that Mr. Patrice appeared at PROC and indicated that the process was under way. If we could just make a note that perhaps we could get more details on what that looks like and how we want to proceed with it, I'd appreciate it.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Duly noted—and will do, I'm told. Are the minutes approved otherwise? They're approved. Okay. Is there any business arising from the previous meeting?Not seeing any, we will now move on to the modernization of policies related to communicating with constituents.(1145)[Translation]During the board's meeting on February 28, 2019, changes to the ten percenter program were presented for approval. Members discussed the introduction of a limit on the number of mailings that an MP can distribute under the proposed new program.[English]The initial proposal included a limit of six times the number of households in a member's constituency per calendar year. It was agreed that further examination of this limit was required. It's my understanding that since the last meeting, a revised proposal to establish the limit at eight times the number of households in a member's constituency per calendar year has been put forward and is supported. If this is indeed the case, the administration will monitor volumes and financial forecasts and return to the board for direction in any given year, if required.Is it the will of the board to approve this revised proposal? I think I'm seeing “yes”, so that's agreed.That finishes point number three. You guys are really good.Mr. Strahl.Constituency officesHouseholdersMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1145)[English]Perhaps we could just have some clarification. I have the package of the different constituency mailers that are now available. Obviously, the 30-day rule now comes into effect, which we're used to having with our householder package. Could you maybe just describe for our members, who I'm sure will be watching and also reading this transcript later, the differences between a constituency mailer and a householder, and whether or not the 30-day exclusionary period will apply just for certain types of mail? For instance, could you do two householders 30 days apart and a constituency mailer in between? Is there a coordination of those printed pieces, or are they on separate tracks?Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBenoitGirouxBenoitGirouxBenoit-GirouxInterventionMr. Benoit Giroux (Chief Operations Officer, Parliamentary Precinct Operations, House of Commons): (1145)[English]Thank you, Mr. Strahl. Indeed they're on separate tracks. They are two different programs and they will remain two different programs. The main difference is the householder. You use one year of your allocation of a householder and you can cover your full riding. If you decide to do less in the householder, then it's your allocation. You use your allocation even if you do less.For constituency mailings, you can break it out. Let's say you have a riding of 50,000. You can decide to send 5,000 in a given area of your riding, the next day 10,000 somewhere else, and so on and so on, up to your full household. That resets every 30 days. You can indeed do one householder and a full constituency mail at the same time, because the counter is for each program. They are not dependent on each other.Constituency officesHouseholdersMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1145)[English]Thank you.BenoitGirouxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[Translation]Thank you very much.Is there anything else?Thank you, gentlemen.[English]We'll move on to point number four, which is transition support, or resettlement provisions, for members not re-elected and not seeking re-election.[Translation]The presenters are Mr. Paquette, Mr. Parent and Ms. Daigle.Go ahead, Mr. Parent.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent (Chief Human Resources Officer, House of Commons): (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I am accompanied by Robyn Daigle, Director of Members' HR Services.The purpose of this submission is to seek your approval for the modernization of the current resettlement provisions. The objective is to facilitate access to transition support services comparable to those generally available to executives for members not re-elected and not seeking re-election.The current resettlement provisions provide for the delivery of advice on finances, retirement, career reorientation, occupation transfer services, education and training, as well as the payment of certain travel expenses.The proposed policy changes take into account comments received from MPs who were leaving politics, including members of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians. They told us that some resettlement provisions and how they were applied were no longer met the needs of MPs leaving politics. The proposed changes would provide transition support measures that would reduce the administrative and financial burden imposed on MPs, while allowing them the flexibility they need.We propose the following.First, we propose extending access to the employee and family assistance program, the EFAP, from 6 to 12 months for outgoing MPs and their families, as well as for terminated employees.Second, we propose being proactive by ensuring that EFAP counsellors are on-site during transition meetings and providing EFAP information packages through various means after elections.I'll turn things over to Ms. Daigle.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle (Director, Members HR Services, House of Commons): (1150)[English] We would also propose to offer career transition services through a third party outplacement company contracted by the House administration. Members will be able to choose one of several standard transition packages. Members will also be able to use alternative career transition service firms by submitting for consideration a request with justification to the chief HR officer. We also propose to remove the provision for expenses related to secretarial services as these types of temporary help services will be offered through the third party provider being proposed. We propose to increase flexibility for departing members who wish to receive alternative forms of education and training by allowing the chief HR officer to review, assess and approve, where warranted, education or training that does not meet the usual training parameters. An example would be training that is not necessarily offered by a recognized institution in Canada. We propose to maintain the availability of travel options currently used by departing members, while specifying the purpose of travel and providing supporting documentation as with existing members. We propose to provide increased flexibility to members by extending the start, completion and claim submission dates for transition-related activities and clarify what expenses are included in the $15,000 transition support amount.If these changes and improvements are accepted, they will be communicated to members through the transition support process. We are happy to answer any questions at this time.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentPierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Madam Bergen.RobynDaigleCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1150)[English]Thank you for this. I think it's really good that you're looking at this. I've heard from members of Parliament, especially those who lost. Obviously they were not expecting it. It's a terrible blow to members of Parliament. I'm hearing about the impact it has. It really is hard on individuals. In the spirit that we're all team players here, I know a lot of Liberals will be going through this after the next election. I'm joking.Seriously, I'm wondering about two things. I heard some discussion previously around one of the problems. When an individual is defeated, their emails and their contacts get cut off very quickly. For a lot of MPs, their phone is their life. I wonder if there's some thought around that and how they could be helped in getting that important information. I know you mentioned you had talked with former parliamentarians. I think they're doing some work. I think Dorothy Dobbie is the new head of this. She's been doing some work on some practical things that could help parliamentarians who are leaving, but not because they want to be leaving. I wonder if a few more practical things might be added that would help individuals.I wonder about the whole counselling part of it. People go through a really hard time when they lose an election. Imagine losing your job, getting fired by basically your entire riding. Your whole life has been serving these people, and a lot is wrapped up in it. I wonder if there may be some discussion, some counselling or some will to help former MPs who have lost their riding to transition back.Thank you.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1150)[English] I know we've been in discussion with the Association of Former Parliamentarians. We'll continue discussions, and we spoke with several members who were in contact with members who were defeated. You're right that for members who are defeated, we've been told, it is a shock. That's why, for instance, we're saying that the employee assistance program should go from six months to 12 months. We've been told that the first six months there is a shock to absorb, and then they're ready to look at the future.I can't comment specifically on the email, so I don't know. We can come back to you, but that's something that we'll consider.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]We'll look at that, and I can assure you.... It was such a shock to me that I still call it my involuntary sabbatical, and not my loss, you see?Mr. Holland.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentPierreParentMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Chief Government Whip): (1155)[English]I, too, Mr. Speaker, enjoyed an involuntary sabbatical and so speak with some experience on this. I agree absolutely that it is an incredible shock for people who go through it, because it consumes all of your life. It becomes more than a job; it becomes almost your identity, so it becomes a very trying experience. I think the extension of the employee assistance program from six months to a year is very important because of the fact that in the first six months people are often still just absorbing what happened. It can take some time to do that, so I think ensuring that people are in a good mental state is incredibly important. I agree, as well, on the point about contacts. The cellphones that are allocated come from a central bank. When you arrive here, you have to give up your cellphone number and get a new cellphone number. For people who are trying to establish themselves thereafter, to lose that phone number is particularly challenging when they are making a transition. I can understand when you're coming in that you're trying to guard a certain number, but I wonder if there's a way of releasing those numbers on the other side so that members can maintain the same contacts.Similarly, I can understand that we don't want people advertising that they have a parl.gc.ca email address, but there should be a way, when emails go there, because they're effectively dead, for the server to reroute them. In other words, for at least a period of time, that email traffic coming through their P9 and only their P9 could be rerouted in some way, because that's limited and personal traffic. I think that's a very key point. After two or three weeks suddenly all of your contact information is gone, and it becomes hard for people to maintain contact.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1155)[English]I see my colleague, the chief information officer, taking notes, so I'm sure this can be addressed.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentMarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]Mr. Julian.PierreParentPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1155)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.It's really a pleasure to be back here.[English]Thank you for the presentation. I think everyone would understand that the intensity of the job means that the transition is particularly difficult for somebody who's defeated. They've been going basically seven days out of seven, for 16-hour days, and then they get through the election, and then they have to wrap up their constituency office if they've lost. They have to wrap up their Ottawa office. They're basically putting years of their life in boxes, and for somebody from British Columbia, it means having to move right across the country. After all of that is done, that intense period of another month, then they finally have a chance to concentrate on themselves. For anybody, losing a job is intense. For anybody, it's a particularly difficult time of their life, so I would agree with Ms. Bergen and Mr. Holland about the communications aspect. For them also to be cut off from their friends, their contacts, and the people they've worked with is difficult. So having provisions for those communications to continue would be important.The counselling is important too. I gather from Ms. Bergen's question that the counselling isn't necessarily a big part of what is provided in the assistance packages, so perhaps you could elaborate a little bit more on the employee assistance plan, what that means in terms of, let's say, the following year for that individual. What would they have access to? What would they not have access to in terms of mental health supports? All of us who've been here have known colleagues who have taken it very hard. They need those supports. In many cases, sadly, it means that maybe things they thought they'd conquered previously come back, so having that counselling in place can make a real difference for that person to be able to get back on their feet again.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle: (1155)[English] I think one of the pieces to highlight in the submission, too, is around the more proactive approach with the EAP. Right now, it's been more positioned as being available. We're going to be doing a couple of things to position that service more appropriately. In the transition centres, there will be EAP counsellors on site to meet with members who may want to avail themselves of counsellors at that time. They might not be ready—we recognize that—but we at least want to have that in place.Then we'll be doing outreach to the MPs within that 12-month period to let them know what's available through the EAP and also to highlight the career transition service packages that are available to them. In there, it might not necessarily be the personal counselling, but there might be other pieces they can focus on. Through the EAP, there's a variety of services available. One of them can be access to counselling, and some of them can be around mental health, financial pieces as well, and that's also in supplement to the career transition service.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[English]Mr. Strahl.RobynDaigleMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1200)[English]Thank you very much.I'm glad we are having this discussion. I've spoken to many colleagues who were not re-elected in 2015 who said their plan A was to win and plan B was also to win. When that doesn't happen, there really is a period of scambling around trying to get your feet under you. It's different for different people. Some people might have an opportunity to get back into their trade or profession, but for others that's not the case.I think part of the issue is that, as Mr. Julian has indicated, when there is an unexpected career transition given to you by your neighbours and community, there is an overwhelming amount of work that has to take place. Getting this package sent to you after you have just suffered a soul-crushing defeat—perhaps it's not the best time to get that information into the hands of members. I would suggest it be sent out to all members prior to the dissolution of this Parliament. Some people might laugh it off, saying they'll never need that, but at least it would be there for their consideration. They might be looking at it when they are in a better state of mind than after an election. So I hope it's possible to kind of package this up and send it out. I know there will be a board notice that will come out, but maybe there could be a more comprehensive package.The second thing I would say is that, while it's good that we're having these discussions right now, also at the same time this is happening, there is a mad dash to get the dozens, if not hundreds, of new members of Parliament into their place. They are just as eager to get here and settled as the people who are getting punted are wanting to have the last moment here. I know in the last Parliament there were some cases where it was literally down to the last hour, like “We are going to kick you out of your office now.”I'm hoping there are two different teams, that the team that's transitioning people out is not the same team that is transitioning people in, and the people who are transitioning out have a specific point of contact, that everyone knows the rules of the game and the time frames and everything, and that there's not a pressure point where the same group is perhaps.... I think there needs to be a group tasked with taking care of those people who are leaving, who don't care about the other pressures that someone else has to care about. Maybe that's already happening, but that would be my advice.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1200)[English]It's already happening. We have a group of employees who are trained specifically for the transition of those who are not re-elected, and we have a group of employees, who have been assisting members in the past election, for those who are new members and want to have the orientation. This is happening. Also, we're very mindful that these two groups are different, so we're making efforts so these two groups do not necessarily interact. We're being very mindful of that reality.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[English]Patrice.PierreParentMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice (Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1200)[English]Just in terms of your first comment, in terms of informing MPs now of the various programs that exist, it's actually in the plan that our Sourceplus team members are going to go through all offices to inform them of the various resources available. Thank you for the suggestion.In terms of the communication, I've just been informed that the phone numbers and emails are kept for 30 days, but we'll review that and we'll also look at the transferability of cellphone numbers, because we do understand these devices....Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English] Madam Chagger.MichelPatriceBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1205)[English]Thank you.Just to build off that, I agree with, prior to the dissolution of Parliament, being able to share information. I think it's also important that we perhaps request a next of kin or somebody else. As somebody who got to see a colleague who did not get elected again, I understand that the experience can be quite isolating.I think people oftentimes contact their member of Parliament more because of the position than because of the individual. During the time served here, you learn quickly who your friends are and who they are not, so I would agree with that.I do believe that the two transition teams—incoming and outgoing—should have some communication, so that when it comes to pressures of vacating an office and so forth, they understand the reality of the individual. If we're bringing compassion into the system, I think it's important that there be some communication regarding who's in and who's out—that kind of thing. How do we perhaps cater to them a little bit more? I hope you have the resources, looking at the fact that the number of members of Parliament has increased to 338.On the emails front, when you graduate from post-secondary school, you have an email that's part of your post-secondary institution, and then you become an alumnus. As alumni, we could have a way of transitioning it. I think we have to be mindful of the role of a member of Parliament versus someone who is no longer a member of Parliament, and to have respect and regard for the institution.I think it could be quite a seamless process to provide someone an email address and transition them there so that correspondence or information gets forwarded on. I know when I graduated from the University of Waterloo, my UWaterloo account automatically got moved into an alumni account. My emails continued, and it was quite a seamless transition. I have confidence that Stéphan and his team will be able to do that.Thank you.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]That's a good point.I remember when I graduated—email? What's email?Mr. Holland.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1205)[English]I have one other thing—and I'll raise this with the Association of Former Parliamentarians—but what happens when somebody loses? Only somebody who has lost can really understand what that process is and what it means.I think it would be very helpful if, in a volunteer capacity—and I'm sure it can be arranged—there was some sort of proactive reach-out after a certain period of time from former parliamentarians to connect with people who've lost, to talk about their experience and how they were able to successfully navigate it.Maybe you could work with them to formalize that process, because I think it's a unique experience. For me, having contact with people who had lost, and who navigated that, was enormously helpful. I didn't find anybody else who quite understood what I was going through. I think some sort of formalization of that would be important.I think that those of us who remain after these events—and I've gone through many events where I've lost a lot of colleagues—realize that the madness of the job continues. We're continuing to be pulled between our ridings and Parliament here in Ottawa. To carve out the extra time to reach out to colleagues is incredibly difficult. Former parliamentarians, I think, would be the right group. You get a letter saying, “Welcome to Former Parliamentarians”. A lot of people don't really want to be in that group. It's not an exciting email or letter to get. Reaching out differently, I think, would benefit them as an organization and would benefit members as well.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1205)[English]We'll reach out to the association.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentMarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Thanks.Madam Chagger.PierreParentBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1205)[English]When I made the point about the next of kin, I was thinking that sometimes the individual may not recognize that they require some assistance, or that they feel isolated. It would be nice just to have a check-in with someone else. I recall an experience when the people around the person also felt isolated. So maybe someone could check in to make sure the family's okay or whatever.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]With all those suggestions for the administration to further consider, does the board wish to adopt these recommendations with a view to having other things looked at in the future? Is that the wish of members?Some hon. members: Agreed.Employee Assistance ProgramsMembers of ParliamentParliamentariansTermination of employmentBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]I think Mr. Strahl is smiling, so I take it he agrees too. Good.[Translation]Thank you very much.We are at the fifth point on the agenda: occupying, managing and vacating constituency offices.On that topic, we'll hear from Daniel Paquette, Chief Financial Officer, Philippe Dufresne, Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, and José Fernandez, Deputy Chief Financial Officer.Mr. Paquette, the floor is yours.Business managementConstituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1210)[English] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I'm here today to seek the board's approval on policy changes that we hope continue to contribute to support members in operating their constituency offices. Our consultations with the members indicated that some current policies are unclear to them and could be more effective in providing that necessary support to manage their constituency offices. During our consultations, members expressed the need for increased support in vacating, moving, occupying and managing their constituency offices. Specifically with these proposed policy changes, we aim to increase flexibility for members who are moving offices, ensure a smooth transition for office moves at the time of an election, clarify constituency office-related policies, and provide tools and support for the preparation of their office leases.[Translation]After reviewing all the information that has been compiled, the administration proposes certain changes regarding constituency offices.[English]Our first proposal is to allow more time for newly elected members to make decisions about their office locations. Members do feel pressure to select a new office very quickly after an election, and they find that the current four-month window for deciding where their office is going to be is not enough time to find that suitable office. We propose extending the period of centrally paid moves, following the election, to one full year in order to provide that additional flexibility.Our second proposal is to align the winding-up period of both the parliamentary and the constituency offices to 21 days.[Translation]This is based on previous decisions of the Board of Internal Economy regarding the allocation of constituency office leases to the House of Commons Administration and on recent decisions of the board to allow members of Parliament to retain their employees up to 14 days after a general election, to better support members when closing and vacating their offices.The administration should be allowed to propose that resigning members and members who are not re-elected vacate their parliamentary and constituency offices no later than 21 calendar days after the date of their resignation or the date of the general election. This would allow newly elected MPs to access offices earlier, without imposing an undue burden on MPs who have to vacate offices.[English]Additionally, we propose to provide additional support to members in selecting the appropriate office space. Members are encouraged to choose an existing office space that is already set up as an office to be used for that purpose. We propose to assist members in choosing a suitable office location by listing elements that an existing office should contain, such as a reception area, security measures and network capabilities.To further help members choose that suitable location, we also encourage members to use a professional appraiser. This is a flat-fee service, and it would provide an estimate of an office space and its market value, and evaluate whether it's compliant with the necessary office elements previously mentioned. Additionally, some office spaces chosen may require extensive renovations, creating long-term pressure on the member's budget. We propose that a priority be, before initiating the renovations, that the member be required to negotiate with their landlord and see whether these kinds of renovations really should be part of leasehold improvements, which are typically paid for by the landlord, although there are renovation expenses that are not covered by the landlord, and these would be charged to the member's office budget in the fiscal in which they are incurred. This would reduce the long-term pressure on the member's budget.We are also proposing to amend the timelines for completing renovations.[Translation]Members of Parliament can currently undertake renovations at any time. As a result, there may be situations where MPs undertake renovations just before a general election. If they are not re-elected, the return on investment is not necessarily advantageous.Our proposal is to limit the completion of renovation work to no later than three years after the date of a general election, or 12 months before the expiry of the lease. This would protect MPs from excessive use of resources that would not be available to them.[English]Next, we propose providing members additional mandatory and recommended clauses for inclusion in their constituency office leases. The proposed clauses allow members to terminate their constituency office lease in the case of landlord wrongdoing. They allow the House administration to be notified of any changes to leases, which will allow support to members in managing their lease and ensure the constituency office meets new accessibility and occupational health and safety standards.Both the members and the House of Commons will benefit from the additional protection these clauses will afford. (1215) Members who encounter difficulty including these necessary clauses in the given lease will need to consult the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel for further guidance.Mr. Chair, this concludes my presentation on this topic. We're ready to answer any questions.Business managementConstituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Strahl.DanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1215)[English]Just quickly, I recognize that the three-year guideline works very well in a majority Parliament situation. Obviously, it's more challenging in a minority. I guess that would fall back to the 12 months. I'm not familiar with this, as both of the times I've been elected, it's been in a majority setting. I know that there are challenges with signing leases with landlords for an indeterminate period of time. I'm a little confused, though, about members being told to pick an existing space, but then they can have leasehold improvements built into their lease, and renovation costs assigned to their budgets. Those all sound contradictory. Is that just encouraging people, or will the bylaws—the policy—actually prevent some cases where someone might be going into, for instance, a brand-new building, built to suit, with lease incentives and all the rest of it? I'm unclear, from how you described it there. It seemed like there were three or four different options. The first thing said was, “Please choose something that's already built.”Business managementConstituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1215)[English]One of the objectives we're trying to help with here is to provide guidance to members so they are up and running as soon possible. Clearly, if you are not going to be assuming an existing office, you need to find something that is ready for you to move into quickly, that is already an office space and has the basic elements that you need. Minor renovations could be needed to fit your functionality. That's the first step we're hoping members will take, and then be operational as quickly as possible.After that, clearly it's not always possible, depending on the scenarios, the constituency and finding those offices. The ability to do renovations is there. We want to make sure they are reasonable. We've had situations where members have had to incur significant renovations, and are paying for those over the term of the Parliament. It does tax their office budgets. Then they are limited in being able to do other things.The guidance will be to talk to us so we can assist you. We have created some additional capacity within my team to provide that. There are experts in this field to help make sure that we do find the right office with you, and that it's up and running quickly.Business managementConstituency officesMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]I think what you're telling us is that whether they use an existing space or a new space, you're going to provide more suggestion than direction.Is that right?Business managementConstituency officesDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1215)[English]That's right.Business managementConstituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]Okay.Mr. Julian.DanielPaquettePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1215)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I'd like to thank the guests for their presentations.I have two questions, and perhaps some comments to follow up on your answer.You mentioned that MPs had done renovations just before an election or that they had done so in order to increase the cost of their leases for each month that followed. Has this really been a problem? That's my first question.My second question concerns the 21 calendar days. We have just discussed what happens to MPs who aren't re-elected. They have a job to do here: they have to box up everything they've accumulated during their work, which may be five, 10 or 15 years. It's the same for constituency offices; they have the same requirements. However, as I understand from this proposal, the period during which they can use an employee is limited to 14 days, but members have a 21-day period to do all this work.Is it true that, according to the provisions, outgoing MPs can use an employee for 14 days?Business managementConstituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1220)[Translation]As for the first question, current policy requires that MPs consult us in advance when renovations are major. We have already had requests from MPs for renovations shortly before an election year. We were able to work with them and the renovations weren't done. In other cases, major renovations to the premises they occupied should have been made at the beginning of their term of office, for example, but this would have put them under budgetary pressure. We want to work with MPs to try to avoid these situations, where possible for them. For this reason, we want there to be guides and tools to support them. Since I have been here, I haven't experienced a situation where such renovations have been made. We want to try to avoid them, to ensure good management of public funds.The 21-day period creates a balance. According to the existing policy, it is 17 days for the Ottawa office and 30 days for the constituency office. In addition, MPs are alone to do this work, unless volunteers can help them. The new measure allows MPs to be well-supported during their transition and to use employees for a period of 14 days, and these expenses can be charged to their office budget. This provides a more stable transition period. We consider a 21-day period to be reasonable.Because the constituency office remains open, we want to ensure that the newly elected official can move into that office as quickly as possible. We are really trying to take into consideration both the difficult situation of the MP who has not been re-elected and that of the new Member who must be up and running quickly. During the consultations we conducted, the majority seemed to consider the 21-day period acceptable.Business managementConstituency officesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English] Mr. Julian.DanielPaquettePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1220)[Translation]Thank you for your answer.I would recommend that this be more of a warning, so that the policy is clear to everyone. I fully agree with that. Other than in difficult situations such as a flood or the like, offices should not be renovated. I find this practice commendable and support it.For the 21-day period, I find this practical, but only to the extent that MPs can have employees to help them. We set a 14-day limit for doing all this work, but we allow a 21-day period to empty the premises. This seems problematic to me. As we have just talked about, we must consider all the other things that the person is going through. Mr. Holland and Mr. Regan are well aware of the requirements that accompany this. I think it would be desirable for an employee to be able to help the member so that the work can be completed in 21 days. This facilitates the transition, as well as ensuring that the work is actually done. So, as Mr. Strahl mentioned, the new MP can move into the office and continue his or her work in the riding, which is very important.Business managementConstituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1220)[Translation]I understand the situation. The 14-day period is a form that we had submitted to the Board of Internal Economy. Members of the board had determined that this was appropriate. If you have another need, we are here to support you and try to help you. If it seems to you that the 14-day period could be adjusted to better align it with the policy, we will certainly be able to consider this possibility.Business managementConstituency officesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English]I should point out to Mr. Julian—and he may know this—that one of the things the board decided not that long ago was that a defeated member would have the benefit of one paid employee for 14 days afterwards, to assist with that process. It's just an element that needs to be kept in mind. That's all. It might be of some interest. I'm not suggesting that your point isn't well taken, by the way.Business managementConstituency officesDanielPaquettePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1220)[English]We're making the period shorter, from 30 to 21. I'm suggesting that if we're shortening the period—and I think there are very good and solid reasons for that—we end up now in a situation where that newly defeated member, who is struggling with a whole range of things, is also endeavouring to meet that new deadline but without the new resources, or at least a few more days from an employee who can assist them in doing that. I think that if what we are all seeking is a smooth transition, that seems to me to be a bit of a weakness in the proposal. Everything else I absolutely support. If we're moving the dates closer, I think it makes sense to allow that person to have somebody who can assist them in achieving that deadline.Business managementConstituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English] I do want to make it clear. It's an important point that, previously, members couldn't pay a staff member afterwards and now they can. I didn't clarify that before. That's a significant point. However, if other members have a view on this that they want to change something, I'm open to hearing their arguments, of course.Ms. Bergen.Business managementConstituency officesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1225)[English]We may need to come back to it. I'm not sure where we are with the bells.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]We are due to suspend the meeting, but maybe on this item we can come back and discuss further. Do members wish to approve the recommendations as they are and come back and have further discussions later on this matter, or do members wish to hold off on approving them?CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1225)[English]I do have some issues around the whole 21 days in relation to our previous discussion around members who lose their ridings, so I think we should put this on hold and come back.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Okay.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1225)[English]On that point, though, if I could very quickly.... Perhaps we could converse immediately before the vote, and hopefully come to some sort of consensus on that point. If we do come back for 10 minutes, perhaps we can clear up this item before we come to the next meeting.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Mr. Strahl.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1225)[English]I would suggest that we do come back after the vote, but that we immediately proceed to matter 10, which is an in camera portion, because I believe it's a time-sensitive matter.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]So, you'd want to suspend this issue until another meeting of the board? That's fine.Is that agreed? Does everyone want to come back with point number 10?MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1225)[English]Can we just canvass if we have consensus? If we have consensus, then we can clear this item and go.Hon. Candice Bergen: Why don't we come back to it?Hon. Mark Holland: We'll come back, and we'll make that decision right after.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Very good.We'll suspend, and we'll see you right after the vote.(1225)(1250)MarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1250)[English] We will resume.We're going to go back to point number five. I think there's agreement to approve the recommendations in number five. Is that correct?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: That's agreed, and now we'll move in camera, because we have some things that have to be discussed in camera. We'll take a moment to do that.[Proceedings continue in camera]Business managementConstituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0131st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, February 28, 2019Le jeudi 28 février 2019Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTFebruary 28, 2019CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 013 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 013 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 013 (Version officielle)013280220192019/02/28 11:20:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1120)[English] This meeting of the Board of Internal Economy is called to order. It's the first meeting in the renovated West Block, and it's a large room we're in. Let's start. The minutes of the previous meeting have been distributed. Are there any issues with those minutes? Are the minutes approved? Approved.Is there any business arising from the previous meeting? Seeing none, we will go on to the West Block update.[Translation]Michel Patrice, Deputy Clerk, Administration of the House of Commons, and Mr. Aubé, will speak to us about it.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice (Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1120)[Translation]Mr. Chair, members of the Board of Internal Economy, it's a pleasure to be here to review our transition to the West Block, which I must admit was a major operation.I won't hide from you that, at some point, we thought we were on the edge of a cliff and had to take a step forward. That being said, we are satisfied: we believe that, under the circumstance, the transition was a success, both from our perspective and yours.[English]As you are aware, on November 1 the building was officially handed over to the House of Commons, and we frantically engaged in the operationalization of the building and the integration of the technology. Following the recess for the Christmas break, we started the office moves, and they were completed on January 25, again, with the support of everyone and the full engagement of all. The first sitting of the House of Commons in the interim chamber occurred on January 28. I'm happy that we have all noticed that it went well. It was a fully functional chamber, and the proceedings were uninterrupted. We had some issues the following day in terms of a leak following a burst pipe, and I must say that we addressed it. Everybody was “all hands on deck” and basically ready to address any issues that would arise. In the span of three days, we were able to address and repair the damages and make the areas affected fully operational again on the Monday following. I was impressed by the way we all collaborated to achieve this success.Obviously, the familiarization of the new building is going on. People still need to find their way in the building. As part of the orientation activities, a map of the West Block and an occupancy manual were provided to MPs and their staff to assist in navigating the building and its services. As you saw, we also deployed Source team members at different strategic locations in West Block for a couple of weeks following the return of Parliament, to be able to assist members, visitors and staff in the building.As we mentioned when we appeared in October to discuss the project and the operationalization of the building and all of that, we were aware that (1125)[Translation]modifications and deficiencies were to be expected in a renovation project of this size. We are currently working closely with our partners to resolve the issues during this period.[English]We've been trying to be very proactive and get feedback and address any issues or questions that may arise in terms of the functioning of this building. I'm going to address some main issues. On chamber lighting in the main chamber, I think you've been noticing that we've been making adjustments while the House is not sitting, after you adjourn, to try to modulate the lighting and so on, and this is an ongoing exercise. For example, during the constituency weeks that are coming, we're going to try to do some testing to more aggressively address some issues with the lighting, so our staff will be working on that.We've noticed other issues, given Mother Nature in this city, like heating in different offices, for example. Adjustment in terms of the heating system had to be made and had to be addressed. That's why it's important that we receive feedback, because, if we're not told about it, we can't act on it. We're trying, as I said, to be very proactive.There are a number of deficiency corrections that we believe will take at least a year, such as things in terms of nicks in the paint, the carpet and some door issues. We had issues with the west door and the south door in terms of opening properly. I can now report that this has been fixed. That's good news, because these are the two main points of access for members and their staff. We're going to continue to look at your offices in terms of layout and seeing that you have the tools and equipment you need to function properly. I would now like to say a few words on the Centre Block project. We've been quite focused on the West Block, obviously, because that was a big project to undertake, but we have not lost perspective of the next step of the project, which is actually quite significant—the rehabilitation of the parliamentary campus and the precinct. Scoping and investigative work continues in Centre Block to assess the existing condition of the building. We are talking about the structural and mechanical state of the building. It will continue through the winter, and it will help better inform us in terms of the required structural design and the requirement for its rehabilitation. As information emerges, we're going to be able to report to the board a bit more about the scope and timelines of the project. Obviously, we'll continue to work hand in hand with PSPC on this project, as we have for this building.Talking a bit about the governance structure, obviously, on the administrative side, I can report to you that we have an integrated, multi-level governance within the administration of Public Works and the various parliamentary partners to oversee the project. We are also working with all those partners to execute the restoration and modernization of the parliamentary process. That's just one component, I would suggest, in terms of this project. I would like to receive direction from the board in terms of the ongoing governance, as well as governance looking forward. Obviously, it's quite clear that this body, the Board of Internal Economy, is the final decision-maker in terms of requirements for the design and rehabilitation of Centre Block or any building in the parliamentary precinct. However, learning from the experience of West Block, I personally felt that parliamentarians were not sufficiently engaged in what I'll call the granularity of the details in terms of the requirements. Learning from this project, I would like to obtain your direction in terms of how you want to go forward as parliamentarians, because this is your workplace. I understand it's a historic landmark and the seat of our parliamentary democracy, but it's fundamentally your workplace, where you do your work on behalf of Canadians. I suggest you will need to be heavily engaged in terms of what I call the details and the granularity. Your direction is welcome in terms of how you want to proceed.There are obviously stakeholders who need to be taken into account—for example, the media and public visitors—in terms of their perspective on the rehabilitation, but at the end of the day, as I said, my view is that it is your workplace and it's for you to really be engaged in this exercise. I would welcome any suggestion on your part.I'll close by saying that I want to really thank members and their staff over the transition period, because they've been exceptional in terms of their support and adaptability to this new environment. We really felt like we were one team working towards the same goal, which is having a House of Commons that is fully functional.Thank you very much.(1130)[Translation]We are ready to answer your questions and respond to your comments.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much.[English] Before I go to Ms. Bergen, which I'll do momentarily, perhaps, after we have this discussion, if there are options that you have in mind in terms of suggestions about how the board, or the procedure and House affairs committee, or members of Parliament generally can be involved in that process, I'm interested in hearing those. Like you, I want to hear from members of the board.Ms. Bergen.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectMichelPatriceCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1130)[English]Thank you very much, Chair. Mr. Patrice, I want to begin by thanking you and congratulating you, and all of the people who I know have worked incredibly hard to make sure that this place is ready and then move us in. I'll be honest; I was one of those people who had doubts. I wondered how you were were going to move us all in just a couple of weeks, but you did. As you said, there were some hiccups, but really, it has been a very smooth move and transition. You certainly need to be congratulated. I know we're very appreciative of everything and the way it's kind of starting to feel like home, which is nice. I thought about it the other day. I thought I was starting to feel a little routine in where I'm going and how I'm getting where I'm supposed to go. That's really good. I have a couple of specific items about things as they currently are, and then I want to speak briefly about Centre Block and how we could maybe have some input in that. One item I know we're still struggling with in terms of practicality is the number of washrooms that are available. There may not be an easy solution. We obviously don't want to cause any issues. If it's only our caucus that has this, that's fine. We know there are some kitchen areas in our offices that are aren't even being used. There may be some opportunities at some point for them to be changed into washroom facilities. That's just a suggestion. The other issue I've thought about is that I really miss that MP entrance we had at Centre Block. There was a sense, if you went through the MP entrance, that the general public wasn't there, and there wasn't media necessarily standing right outside. Right now it seems like we don't quite have that. I'm not sure if other caucuses are feeling that, but maybe there could be further discussion in terms of security. You become accustomed to something. I think that's probably what I'm feeling; we were accustomed to that dedicated entrance. If that's something that could possibly be discussed and maybe some solutions for it brought forward, we would appreciate that. In terms of having input for Centre Block, I'm glad that's something you've thought about. I thought that the way the restoration work was done around West Block kind of felt like we were told as MPs that we were getting a new home, but no one was going to ask us what we needed in our new home or what we would like to see in our new home. We weren't even really going to know what was in our new home, and when we got there, we were just going to need to adjust. That's okay. I think we can do that, but I think it would be beneficial if we had a method to bring some input. I know we've had some offline discussions. Ms. Chagger, Ms. Brosseau and I have had some discussions about this. What we don't want to see is kind of a political or bureaucratic bog-down process. We would like to have a process whereby each of our caucuses could have one point of contact in their caucus whereby suggestions.... Some of those suggestions could be small—as a member of Parliament, I want to be able to have a certain amount of legroom, if I need it, at my chair, if that's possible—all the way to needing to ensure that we have certain access for MPs. There are a lot of suggestions. I don't think we'd anticipate that we would get everything we want, but I think we would like to have an ability to get input from our caucus and then bring it to you in a way that we know will be addressed—with a “Yes, we can do this” or “No, we can't and here's why” or “ How about we do it this way?” Then there's actually a way, when we move to Centre Block, to be able to say, “No, it ended up that we couldn't have this feature, and here's why, but we knew that there was some discussion, and it was recognized that the whole discussion could have happened.”We would like to see a working group—not bureaucratic, not political, but just where we can have feedback and be able to make sure that our issues are at least being heard. I'll let the others weigh in, but those were the two things I wanted to bring up.Thank you. Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English] Ms. Chagger.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1135)[English]I would like to go to some of Candice's comments. Michel, you and your team have been a delight to work with. I know that we've had some challenging times. I think that any time we have a move, it's exciting, but there are growing pains. It's true that it's been quite pleasant to see everyone working together to ensure that we are able to satisfy the needs of members. What I appreciated the most out of your comments was that you recognize that they're buildings that belong to all Canadians but they are workplaces for parliamentarians, so it's important that we are part of the processes. I'm not sure how many MPs here have had the opportunity to actually weigh in. Yes, public input is necessary, but I think MP input is also necessary. I think that the procedure and House affairs committee, PROC, is also looking a little bit at this work, and they should continue to do so. I think the other avenue should be this table right here. What I would like for myself is to have caucus be able to provide me with input, whether there's a person we have as a point person and so forth, and then we would bring it to this table so that we can have this discourse. We can also discuss amongst ourselves. It's similar to some of the things that we've had to do to this new building. Sometimes it's repetitive because we're all experiencing the exact same thing, and we've been able to have some of those conversations with the Clerk and actually have them dealt with sooner, now that we've created a system.I don't think there's a need for another entity to be created. I think that between PROC and this table we have the opportunities to do that. I think it's important that we do have MPs' voices heard, to make sure that it is smooth.The last thing I will say is that I think Centre Block needs to be kept as similar to Centre Block as possible. As much as I know restorations are important—it's important that we bring the building to the 21st century—I really do hope that the look and feel of it is what the plans are. I hope we are documenting. I know there were some visions for this building, in the restaurant and so forth, that have not come to fruition for one reason or another, so I would also raise that on the public record. The last point I would raise is that I think we've learned heavily that there are two processes to a move. We know the building is going to be built by the department, and Public Works will have to do that, but then the House administration has an essential role, and enough time has to be provided. As we provide timelines moving forward, I would like to ensure that the time that the House administration needs is always taken into account and that we actually provide you with the time that's needed so that if we do have to change doors and whatever else, it's possible.You know that we see some doors that need to be replaced, and I know we're finding solutions. It's just a matter of how we ensure that we have as smooth a transition as possible for when members do move back to Centre Block.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliamentary precinctGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Thank you very much. I'm going to go to Mr. Strahl next.As we go on, I'd be interested in hearing if members like the idea of a working group that works on a continuing basis with the House of Commons and Public Services and Procurement architects. Maybe they meet quarterly or whatever it needs to be. This would be a dedicated group, as opposed to the procedure and House affairs committee or the Board of Internal Economy, which have other things they're doing and other things they will study. Is that something that is attractive?Mr. Strahl.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1140)[English] Thank you very much.Obviously, understanding that what we've experienced in terms of deficiencies is very normal for a move of this size, we continue to have some concerns with the gremlins in the system that, for whatever reason, are preventing the bells from ringing in every building. It seems that for every vote there's a new building where the members are not notified. We've made our own adjustments on the fly to deal with that. I don't want to turn this into a list of things that are wrong, but I want to touch a bit on Ms. Chagger's comments. We should agree at this table—or at PROC, I'm not sure which—on some first principles for this. I agree 100%. I've said that if I'm lucky enough to still be elected or if I come back as a visitor, I hope I can walk back into Centre Block and say they haven't changed a thing. Obviously there is the lighting—it's a building that was built before computers were invented—and there are the internal components that need to be upgraded, but I would be devastated if I went in and I didn't recognize the building we left.There's a common belief that with a building of that nature, we want to maintain as much as possible of the way it was, while upgrading the critical components. In addition to a working group, maybe we could agree on some baseline framework within which we would like you to proceed. I think that would be important and would probably give some good direction.Obviously, there was some concern, even when we moved into this building, with the allocation of the space—that perhaps parliamentarians were not given the primacy they should have been given. People staked their claim to the limited real estate here early on, and we were takers on that side of it as well. Obviously, having come from Centre Block and having operated there, there's some knowledge of where the opposition leader's office is, where the Prime Minister's suite is and where the cabinet wing is. That is all, I hope, going to be maintained. I would just put that out there, that even where the offices are and all of that.... It seemed that we were just presented with “This is what you're going to take, and this is the way it's going to be.” Looking at it now, there probably should have been some adjustments. Maybe they can be made when the writ is dropped or between the Parliaments in the upcoming election. That would be my thought on it.Also, we're not.... We have some engineers in our caucus, and there are some architects, perhaps, who will be elected. We want to be careful with the working group, to ensure that it doesn't cause delays. We absolutely need to be a part of the process, but we need to understand the scope of our involvement. We shouldn't have people.... Not every idea is a good idea, and not every idea can be implemented, so I would just put that out as a bit of caution.I will express some concern. When we see things like the dome—the glass ceiling that cannot be opened when we sit in the building because of broadcasting considerations—that's a really expensive mistake. I don't know where parliamentarians get to be inserted into that process, where there are really good ideas and architectural marvels that don't work for what we do. As protectors of taxpayers' dollars, we need to make sure that this sort of thing does not happen again.I'll leave it there.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]Madame Brasseau.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1145)[English] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I would like to thank Mr. Patrice and Mr. Aubé for their hard work. I think this is a time when we're all kind of singing with the same voice. I think we're all in agreement that the transition, the move here, went very well. There were some growing pains, and it took us all a while to figure out where to go, where the bathrooms were and where the committees were. Sometimes I don't get lost, but I have to make sure that I'm heading in the right direction.I just want to thank you for all your hard work and the fact that we were able to get back here fast after the break. I think we all really appreciated it. Also, on the pace with which you moved to resolve some of the concerns we did have, I want to say thank you for that, too. I agree that there needs to be a working group that works with MPs, because who knows who's going to be here after October. I think it's important, because this is our workplace, that it does fit and it does work for us, and obviously for Canadians and people who come from around the world to see our Parliament.One concern that I do have—and I think there was a story in the CBC—is about the interpreters and the sound acoustic shocks that some of the people working on the Hill have suffered. I think we're all very thankful for and very aware of the important work that our interpreters do, so we have to make sure, on Parliament Hill and in committees, that when there are phone conferences, our interpreters are protected and have the proper equipment to make sure the acoustic shocks are being limited. I don't know if this is the place to do it, but I think we need to have some information about that, about what kind of work progress has been done. I don't know if this is the forum for it or not, but I think it's important that we get an update to make sure that these people are being protected.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]Before I go to Michel Patrice.... I don't want to be quoted in your election pamphlets, but I thought the advice about the working group not directing everything—being involved, having a say and giving feedback, but accepting the fact that the architects have to make some decisions with their knowledge—was wise counsel, but don't quote me.Mr. Mark Strahl: It's public now.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Hon. Geoff Regan: Monsieur Patrice.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1145)[English]I want to thank you for all your good work for the team, because it's basically the team that responded to the different issues or assisted in terms of the transition. I'm going to say that we would welcome the working group suggestion of a representative from each caucus working for the duration of this project. I think this group would be a good forum to gather the views of your membership and also probably elaborate on the basic principle that Mr. Strahl mentioned and present to the board basic principles in relation to Centre Block. I want to touch on the allocation of space, because I've been personally involved in the issue of allocating space. We've definitely learned from it, and we're going to do it better next time.In terms of direction, delays and so on, obviously we'll engage in fruitful discussions. I believe that we or the working group could report to the board from time to time in terms of our level of representation to both this committee and PROC, should they express the desire to have an update on the project.If that's the wish of the board in terms of the working group, we thank you, and we'd welcome working with the group.I'm going to ask Stéphan to address the issues of the interpreters, because it's something that we are keenly aware of, and he can provide you with information in relation to that situation.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1150)[English]Mr. Speaker and Madam Brosseau, we are aware of the case. One incident happened with the interpreters department of PSPC. We are taking this issue very seriously, and we've been working with the department very closely. We've done an assessment of the equipment, and we've assessed equipment that could replace the equipment we have, based on international standards, to ensure that this does not happen. We are proceeding this summer with replacement of the stations for the interpreters in this facility to ensure that any potential issues in the future would be remediated by ensuring that the equipment we have meets the international standards that the interpreters are looking for to deal with this.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1150)[English] We're aware of one incident within our setting in Parliament. Obviously, I think it's something that is a risk for interpretation all around. In terms of the House of Commons, whether in committees or in the chamber, we are aware of one incident. At that time, we provided an interim measure, a piece of equipment that would attenuate the risk, but we're looking at a more permanent solution.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockStéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Madam Brosseau.MichelPatriceRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1150)[English]As I understand it, the equipment that we have right now in West Block, in the new committee rooms and the House of Commons, will all have to be replaced.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1150)[English]No, just the stations.... In the interpretation booth, there's a station. Right now we've added a device to ensure this does not happen, and we're looking at replacing the interpretation stations in the interpretation booths. All the audio systems will remain the same.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1150)[English]So all the stations have this new technology that limits—Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1150)[English]Yes, it's built in, versus adding the new device.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1150)[English]Okay. Sometimes it does happen to us when we're in the House. Somebody gets up for a question or a speech, and I think they put their—Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockStéphanAubéCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1150)[English]It's feedback.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1150)[English]It's the feedback, and that kind of hits us. I know there's one case that you guys are aware of, and I think that was made public, but I think there might be possibilities of other cases where people who have been working in this type of environment for 10, 15 or 20 years have come to deal with certain health issues over the years.Would it be of importance that, if interpreters have concerns, they do come forward and raise them?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1150)[English]Absolutely.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1150)[English]Okay. Perfect.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockStéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]The earpiece is a speaker, right? Normally that's what causes feedback, when a speaker is too close to a microphone. Does this kind of interrupt that?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1150)[English]Well, the mechanism that we have, sir, is to ensure that there isn't any major high-pitched noise to their ears.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Ah, okay.StéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1150)[English]We weren't able to identify what created the issue—Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]It's like a limit on the volume.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1150)[English]Exactly.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Good.Mr. Strahl.StéphanAubéMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1150)[English] Just before we close off this topic, I'm sure that, when the West Block rehabilitation was being undertaken, the Board of Internal Economy and the procedure and House affairs committee also proposed to have.... Maybe I'm wrong. I guess I would look for your guidance as to what the board and the committee proposed at that time in terms of their involvement. If we're proposing the same thing they did, and it didn't work, I'd like to know that. Perhaps you've done that research and can share that with the board.Dominic probably was there, but the rest of us....Voices: Oh, oh!Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc (Minister of Intergovernmental and Northern Affairs and Internal Trade): (1150)[English]Ralph Goodale, actually, was here when it was built the first time.Voices: Oh, oh!Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1150)[English]What you're proposing is quite different. In terms of West Block, the board was basically the body that was informed, but I would suggest sometimes not at the level of granularity that would have been necessary to address the requirements in terms of your workplace.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockDominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]I'll say the same thing here that I've said more than once at the procedure and House affairs committee, PROC, which is that it's important, I think, on an ongoing basis that members of the Board of Internal Economy and PROC insist on being informed and, to use the deputy clerk's words, in sufficient granularity of detail to avoid some of these problems.(1155)[Translation]Thank you very much.We will now move on to the next point on the agenda, namely, additional resources for the provision of human resources advisory services to MPs as employers.To speak on this subject, Pierre Parent is with us. He is the chief human resources officer of the House of Commons,[English]and also Ms. Robyn Daigle, director of members human resources services.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMichelPatricePierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent (Chief Human Resources Officer, House of Commons): (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English] I am here today in my capacity as chief human resources officer for the House of Commons to request additional resources to meet the increased demand of HR services to support members and House officers in their role as employers.I am joined today by Robyn Daigle, director of members HR services.In recent years, changes have been introduced related to the policy framework and legislative landscape in which members must manage their workplaces. The introduction in 2015 of the House of Commons policy on preventing and addressing harassment and the recent adoption of Bill C-65 will place even greater demands on members' offices to meet the new requirements with respect to health and safety and harassment prevention in the workplace. As with all employers, members are under increasing pressure to create a positive work environment that responds to evolving social expectations. [Translation]The House Administration is seeing an increase in the number of requests from MPs and employees supporting them in the management of their offices for advice, guidance and resources to help them resolve human resources issues. We respond to these requests on an ad hoc basis using existing resources, programs and services.However, current support is limited and more resources are needed to meet the growing demand. We are also aware that these services must continue to be personalized and take into account the unique nature of the work environment of MPs.I'll turn things over to Ms. Daigle.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentWorkplace health and safetyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle (Director, Members HR Services, House of Commons): (1155)[English] The additional resources being sought will be used to stabilize the current services offered, including those related to training, the respectful workplace program and occupational health and safety, as well as to enhance our orientation services to support members and their staff through the election process and on an ongoing basis. HR advisory services would also be centralized and offer dedicated HR advice to members. Members would be able to access these services based on their requirements and as they deem necessary.I should emphasize that the advice and support that our HR team provides will in no way change the fact that members are the sole employers of their staff. The services take into account that each party has its own internal structure and processes when it comes to managing their resources. Our senior HR advisers would continue to work within this infrastructure and with the whips' offices to ensure that the existing service delivery model and the enhancements to it provide complementary enhanced services to members and also to those who assist them in managing their offices. By ensuring that adequate tools and programs continue to be available, we will be better able to support members in navigating difficult situations and help them to address issues as they arise. Adequate resources would also assist new members who seek such assistance in establishing their parliamentary and constituency offices and who must balance the various administrative obligations involved in doing so. Confirming sufficient resources will ensure that members receive responsive, non-partisan, confidential services that enable their decision-making as employers. Ultimately, we believe it will contribute to supporting a positive and successful workplace for members and their staff. We are happy to answer questions at this time. EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentPierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[Translation]Mr. LeBlanc, you have the floor.RobynDaigleDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc: (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The fundamental issue of the employer function that MPs also perform, in addition to their role as MPs, has long been discussed at Board of Internal Economy meetings. In fact, both Ms. Daigle and Mr. Parent raised it. Especially in recent years, some unfortunate events have occurred, and everyone has tried to improve processes. In my opinion, Mr. Parent and his team have succeeded in doing extraordinary work in an often difficult context due to the public nature of our duties.These additional resources would be perfectly appropriate and would improve the services offered to members of all political parties in the House of Commons, professional and confidential services that would help to avoid all kinds of situations that would be less than ideal.They would also better support MPs in their role as employers. Indeed, with the exception of some MPs who have already managed a business or staff before their election to the House of Commons, few new MPs have experience as employers. However, as soon as they are elected, they are expected to set up a constituency office, hire staff in Ottawa and therefore act as an employer in several respects. Everyone wants to do it properly. In my opinion, these services are truly an ideal way to help MPs, not only those who are already in office, but also those who will one day succeed us in Parliament.I am therefore fully in favour of these additional resources. I also wanted to congratulate Mr. Parent and his great team. In recent years, we have all benefited as MPs from their very professional and accessible work. It's a way to take this work even further.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much.Are there any other comments?Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.DominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1200)[English] I have just a couple of quick questions, I guess, on the financial side.For the 22 full-time equivalents, the biggest list doesn't really list the position. It says, “Stabilization of existing HR programs and services”. There is “occupational health and safety”, “nurse counsellor”, etc. What are those folks going to do going forward? Maybe just give us a breakdown of what that actually looks like. I'm also interested in the “financial advisors” part of this. What service to members would they be providing?Also, it looks like your funding request is flat for the next three fiscal years. What metrics will you use to determine whether there is a requirement to increase that? Perhaps, once all members are more aware of their obligations under Bill C-65, more aware of workplaces that are modern and respectful.... All of this work is happening right now. There's a big push for it. Is there any mechanism to say that this will continue to be a requirement at $2.5 million going forward? If so, how will you determine whether you need more or whether you actually don't need as much as has been allocated?EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentWorkplace health and safetyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle: (1200)[English]Yes, certainly. Thank you for the question.In terms of the question on stabilization of resources, currently a lot of services are provided on an ad hoc basis—access to the nurse counsellor through the harassment prevention program, through the respectful workplace program—and also in terms of the renewal of the members' orientation program as well. These are things that we're already having to do, so it's stabilizing those resources, because currently we don't actually have those resources in place. We've been doing it with the existing capacity that we've had. That's where a big piece of that comes from.There's another piece of that, which is on the HR advisory side. It's not even necessarily that this is something completely new. Again, they are ad hoc resources or requests that have come in through the pay and benefits mechanism. For example, right now, a primary point of entry for the members and those administering their offices is through pay and benefits, but it's supposed to be a transactional.... It's supposed to be moving through some of these employment transactions that are coming in, but because that's one of the few places for members and the staff in those offices to go to, they often get a variety of questions that wouldn't or shouldn't necessarily be fielded by pay advisers. This is where some of our team are already starting to get involved in these files to help resolve them from a more holistic HR perspective. That's also a stabilization piece. As well, we also know the office of the CHRO has seen a number of requests. That's why we talk about stabilization and enhancement when we talk about these resources.From a financial adviser perspective, it's not necessarily in the context of providing financial advisory services to members. It's in the context of how most services have that financial management capacity built into their teams from a financial planning perspective and forecasting and budget management. That's where these two resources come into effect.We would also be hiring a legal adviser for this team to ensure that all the HR advice we are providing to members and to those who are helping to manage their offices is also done in the context of that angle—from an employment law perspective. We just want to make sure that it is a comprehensive service that's being provided.In terms of the longer term in what we've forecasted, we do recognize that we are going to have to continue to track the volume and the types of inquiries that are coming in. From that perspective, it's something that's done in any type of team environment where you need to track the volume, the types of inquiries and the case management that's being done. We know that we'll have to report up to ask if this is sufficient, if it is ongoing or if we need to reduce or increase. I can confidently say that I think we have been very realistic in what we've proposed; we haven't stretched far from that perspective. If we ever came back to the board to either reduce or increase those resources, it would be with quite a rationale associated with it.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]Thank you.RobynDaigleGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Mr. Holland.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Chief Government Whip): (1205)[English]I'll just say thank you for the work that's done on an ongoing basis and for what's proposed here. My reflection is that caucuses use these services differently, depending on what internal policies they actualize. My anticipation is that we'll use these additional resources a lot, not because I necessarily anticipate a lot of HR problems—although I do think these things arise—but it's more because good HR policy is about being proactive, about creating environments where there is a network of support to be able to catch and remediate issues early, before they advance. I've expressed concern in the past, but I won't belabour the point now. There probably will be more needed as we modernize our HR practices overall, but certainly this is a step in the right direction and I am favourable.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English] Is there anyone else? Is it the will of the board to approve this request?Some hon. members: Agreed.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentMarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[Translation]Thank you very much.[English]Now we're on modernization of policies related to communicating with constituents. We have Benoit Giroux, chief operations officer; Daniel Paquette, chief financial officer; and Philippe Dufresne, law clerk and parliamentary counsel.Mr. Giroux.Constituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBenoitGirouxBenoitGirouxBenoit-GirouxInterventionMr. Benoit Giroux (Chief Operations Officer, Parliamentary Precinct Operations, House of Commons): (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The communications that MPs send to their constituents represent an important part of their duties. This is why several services for this purpose are chargeable to central funds. MPs may also charge external printing costs to their office budget.[English]In order to ensure that members' needs continue to be met, the House administration proposes changes to modernize the ten percenter regime. [Translation]In addition, other policy changes are proposed regarding external printing and advertising services.[English]Let's start with the modernization of ten percenters. In line with the 2018 changes to the householder program, our consultation revealed that members wanted colour and simplified processes. We propose to replace the current ten percenter program with what would be named constituency mail. It consists of eight formats, which include four new formats. All formats are available in black, two-colour and full colour. The formats are available for your viewing in the sample kit prepared by the printing and mailing services group. It consists mainly of flyers, reply cards and postcards.Of importance is the proposal to simplify the overall planning and submission process by eliminating the 50% content difference rule and introducing a limit consisting of a maximum of six times the number of households in the member's constituency per calendar year. As for shipping, the member can continue to mail through unaddressed Admail or use the new option provided for addressed Admail. Finally, it is proposed to allow for the display of third party community resources and not-for-profit website addresses.(1210)[Translation]In conclusion, the proposed changes provide additional benefits to members while removing rules that were no longer in compliance.I will now turn things over to Mr. Paquette, who will explain changes related to certain policies.Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1210)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Giroux.[English]The next recommendations relate to external printing services. Recognizing the needs of having greater flexibility when members communicate with their constituents, members may rely on external providers for printing services. The current limit for external printing is set at 4,500 copies, but feedback received indicates that the amount is not aligned with economies of scale in the industry and it is generally recognized in increments of thousands. Therefore, it is proposed to modify the policy regarding external printing services by increasing the limit to 5,000 copies when using an external printing service. This increase will be more advantageous for members, reducing their cost per copy.In addition, over the years, the board has approved various policy changes relating to external printing services. These were in response to various individual specific issues relating to communications with their constituents and stakeholders. These changes created policy application challenges and confusion for members on how to apply these rules for external printing, so we would like to bring together these various rules a little better within our policy manual.Therefore, we are recommending that the board reiterate that the documents printed externally are subject to the same conditions and restrictions as documents printed within the House printing and mailing services; require that the originating member's name and status as a member of Parliament appear clearly and distinctively in the printed correspondence; maintain the current policy whereby expenses for printing materials used at third party events and/or activities be charged to the advertising expenses, to be in compliance with the advertising policy; and maintain the current policy and limits to allow members to distribute mailing, correspondence and other printed materials to stakeholders outside of their own constituencies in the discharge of their parliamentary functions.Finally, the last point is related to members' advertising at third party events and activities. Currently, members may advertise a third party event at up to $500 for printed advertising materials. Within that limit, there is a $250-per-advertisement charge for event signage or banners. This sublimit of $250 we recognize does not add value. It has been creating some confusion for members, and it has really added an administrative burden for them to manage these payments. Therefore, we propose to remove this sublimit of $250 per event advertising with signage and banners, and only maintain the single limit that members cannot exceed for their advertising at third party events and parties.Mr. Speaker, this concludes our presentation. We're pleased to answer any questions the board members may have.Constituency officesBenoitGirouxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Holland.DanielPaquetteMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1210)[English]I'll say very quickly, Mr. Speaker, that I very much support these changes. Dealing with ten percenters since I was elected in 2004— with an involuntary break—has been a major challenge. You're constantly trying to MacGyver a solution to get correspondence to your constituents and, as a result, they were abused in all kinds of bizarre and strange ways.Creating a uniform process for that makes a great deal of sense to me, so that, on the one hand, people don't get too frustrated to use it, and, on the other hand, people don't use it excessively in a way it wasn't intended to be used. I'm very supportive.Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Thank you.Mr. Strahl.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1210)[English]Obviously, a major change is the maximum of six times that a member can put out one of these new constituency mailers. What is the rationale for that? What are the projected savings by limiting members to that number?Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBenoitGirouxBenoitGirouxBenoit-GirouxInterventionMr. Benoit Giroux: (1215)[English]Well, we've looked at the volumes that the members were sending as ten percenters for the last two fiscal years, which we believe were good baseline years. With respect to the limit of six times and the number of households in your constituencies, 92% of all members are actually within that limit, sending within that limit. We have 8% who are high flyers and would be outside that limit, so we believe we've covered the vast majority of members sufficiently. The other consideration is that we are confident that with those limits we would still be operating within the current budget, which was looked at as well.Constituency officesHouseholdersMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1215)[English]Right, so the question is.... There will be some push-back. What was the impetus for the 8% who are doing more than six times a year? What are you trying to prevent here? I guess that's the question. Why have that limit? I can tell you that for some members it will be like waving a red flag in front of a bull: “You're telling me that I can't communicate with my constituents.” I guess I'm trying to understand the rationale. If 92% of MPs are not going to go over six, why are you limiting it to six?Constituency officesHouseholdersBenoitGirouxBenoitGirouxBenoitGirouxBenoit-GirouxInterventionMr. Benoit Giroux: (1215)[English] The other thing we looked at is our production capacity. By introducing full-colour products for this new constituency mail, we also had to make sure that we're sufficiently able to produce on an efficient basis. That was also part of looking at establishing the limit at six. It's to make sure that we can continue to support members in their communications in an efficient way within the production limits and production timelines that we currently have established.If we augment that limit, then we're putting ourselves into a situation where we could go overbudget or where we would have way too much demand that is going to extend the production time for those constituency mailings.Constituency officesHouseholdersMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1215)[English]I have another question. Right at the beginning of the presentation here, in the “Background” in our internal document, you say, “Communicating with constituents is an important element of Members’ parliamentary functions”, and the bylaw says that we can talk about things such as “duties and activities that relate to the position of Member, wherever performed and whether or not performed in a partisan manner”, etc.If I may provide feedback from our members, there is an increasing frustration that there is an unaccountable bureaucrat or bureaucrats increasingly determining that materials produced and authorized by members of Parliament be rejected for being somehow outside the bounds of that. To me, that's a very broad bylaw, and I think it's being increasingly narrowly interpreted.If I can get up in the House of Commons and in a question call for the resignation of a minister, or if I can talk about the carbon tax in an S.O. 31 and say that a Conservative government will do things differently, and if Liberals can get up and talk about the lost decade under Stephen Harper, blah, blah— An hon. member: That never happens.Mr. Mark Strahl: No, it rarely happens that there are politics or partisanship in the House, but on those rare occasions.... In all seriousness, if we are able to say things in the House, we should be able to say those same things in the mailers, the materials that we produce for our constituents. It is up to our constituents to judge whether or not they are overtly partisan or are a good use of public resources. I would offer that as feedback in general. We have seen members who've had their radio spots that they pay for out of their MOBs questioned due to the content. We all know that we cannot solicit funds, that we cannot solicit memberships and that we cannot solicit votes for ourselves, but other than that, I think we have to err on the side of caution in giving members of Parliament wide latitude to communicate with their constituents in the way they see as appropriate. That might not be the same in every riding in Canada, and it's up to the member of Parliament, not a member of the House administration, to make that determination. I think there have been increasing occurrences of that happening, and I think we need to kind of lay down our line in the sand at this board that we are going to assert the rights of members to make those determinations. I will say that. I know this is all set to take place after the next election, and certainly I would like to take this proposal to my caucus so that there can be some suggestions on how we move forward. I think it would be ill-advised for me to sign off on this without doing that. Let me put it that way.Constituency officesBenoitGirouxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English]We won't have consensus on this today. I'll keep that in mind as we go on. Members can decide whether they want to be briefed because of that or not. Ms. Bergen.Constituency officesMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1220)[English] Thank you.I won't add a lot to what Mark said. I agree fully with everything he articulated. On the issue of changing ten percenters to a maximum number of mail-outs, I think we should err on the side of making sure that those 8% can still do what they've been doing. If 92% are going to do fewer than six a year, then why wouldn't we say you can do 10 a year, with the knowledge that that probably won't happen? Budgets are increasing, and there's more and more. All of a sudden now, to go back to our caucus and say that their ability to communicate with their constituents is going to be scaled back, when the only argument we can give is that we might not have the ability to pay for it, first of all, I think that probably wouldn't be the case, so I think we should rather look at this and expand that. I would add to what Mark talked about. I agree. When I get up every day, the work I do is to do two things: to move out what I believe is a government that is not good for Canadians, which is what my constituents elected me to do, and to put in a government that I believe is good for Canadians, which means I'm going to ask them to support me. I'm going to ask them to listen to my arguments. I think the measurement should be that if we can say it in the House of Commons, we should be able to say it in our communication with our constituents. If it is slanderous or defamatory, then we will be held accountable for that, and we will be held accountable by our electorate, in whether they vote for us again.I wrote a letter, and I said, “That's why, in 2019, Conservatives...”, and I was told I wasn't allowed to say that. It became unbelievable. We are partisan; that is what we do. We are political, and we're having more and more restrictions from people when we don't even know who they are and who they're accountable to. I think it's something that has to be looked at. That way we would all have the same freedom and ability to communicate in the way we believe we should.Thank you.Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English]Ms. Brosseau.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1220)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I would like to thank Mr. Giroux and Mr. Paquette for their presentation.I would like to say that the comments that I have gotten back from my constituents, after we went to colour, have been very positive. I think people appreciate getting news from their members of Parliament, and I think the way we're doing it is a lot more interesting to them.Given the concerns raised by Candice and Mark, I don't know if there's an appetite from other members of the committee to see what it would be like to review some of the ten percenters or householders that have been refused, or ads that have been refused. I don't know if that is a possibility. I don't know what a review would look like. I don't know if there's an appetite from other members to look into this. I think this happens frequently. It hasn't been a big concern for our caucus. I don't know if there's an appetite from members of the board to look at this. I would like some more information, maybe some feedback, if a review is requested, on what that could look like.Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Philippe.Ruth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne (Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons): (1225)[English]If I may jump in, I think that if there is a lack of consensus at this time to approve this recommendation, and there are some questions about the criteria that are being applied in approving or not—and ultimately, the approval can always be brought to the board—we could put these examples, and these issues could be looked at and some examples given, in the revised note that would come back for your consideration at our next board meeting. That would be part of the discussion about whether there are concerns about the criteria being used, whether these criteria flow from the bylaw, whether there is a need for a change in the bylaw, and whether the bylaw is being interpreted too strictly. Those things could be brought back for your consideration and direction.Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Mr. Holland.PhilippeDufresneMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1225)[English] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I have two items. One is that perhaps we can divide the two matters that are here. I'm hearing that there are two separate matters: one is relating to the number of mailings that can be sent out, which is a more scoped issue; and then there's a broader conversation that I'm hearing around what sort of material can be sent out or what the boundaries are on that. I would hate to entangle those two items. I think one can move forward separate from the other, and one is a more detailed conversation that we have to have. That would be my first suggestion.On the volume, I hear what members are saying, and I think that communication is incredibly important. However, I would point out that 10 times a year is an extraordinary number of mailings. There is a point at which perhaps people need to work on their brevity or how succinct they are. There are serious costs involved in mailing, and if you want to mail more than 10 times a year to your constituents, to me that starts crossing the line of being relatively excessive.This was exactly the problem with the ten percenter program. There were no rules or boundaries on how it was used, so theoretically you could be putting out ten percenters every single day. I think it's moving to some kind of uniformity and giving some kind of clarity to members.Again, we can have that conversation. If there's a slight upwards adjustment, for example, if 92% of people are covered by 10, and we can get up to 98% by doing 11, then let's do 11 and move on with it. That's the one point.On the second point, I just have to put it on as a matter of record that I think there's a material difference between the debates we have in the House and the materials that we send out to constituents. I say this as somebody who has spent nearly six years in opposition as well and agrees with the general thrust of what's being said. However, we don't want to be in a situation where we're effectively funding partisan undertakings.If you get to a point where you're unable to distinguish between a campaign flyer and a householder, that's a serious problem. I think that matters of debate around policy, around issues, are of course fair game. If we're talking about keeping that line between a difference of opinion and policy, I think that's a fair boundary, but I get concerned if we're drawing in the use of House resources to fund essentially partisan propaganda. We all have it; we all have a particular partisan message that we're disseminating, but I think that line, that wall, is important. It's a judicious line, and it's one that I would defend rather vociferously.If we're going to have a conversation on that, I would want to extricate it from this particular matter. I think if the two are entwined, it could lead us to a circumstance where we don't change this, and then if we don't change it, we're left with the continuance of something that has been in long need of overhaul.Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Mr. Strahl.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1225)[English]To Mr. Holland's point, though, I think that's exactly what I'm trying to raise: who is making those determinations. Who determines if something is too partisan? Who determines if something crosses over from a member's role to a partisan role, and if that is being done, where is the direction coming from? Who is monitoring that to ensure it is consistent? That is an increasing frustration. We have members who.... I sent out a particular ten percenter; another colleague tried to submit the same ten percenter, and it was rejected. This is what I am concerned about. There are people who are making these determinations. I don't know who they are. I don't know who is giving them direction. I don't know where the feedback mechanism is for that, and I think it's incredibly inconsistent. That's why I would err on the side of allowing more products to go out and allowing our constituents, who pay for them and receive them, to make the determination as to whether or not they are acceptable.That is my concern. When the deciders are not known and we don't have control over that process, I would suggest that it becomes extremely arbitrary. I don't want that to be the case. I would like us to have broad interpretations as to what is fair comment, and I think we have strayed away from that into where there is now an arbitrary determination. One member to the next can submit the same item for printing; one gets printed and sent, and the other one gets held up for weeks. On matters that are currently before the House especially, something may be before us only for a matter of days or weeks, and if we are going through a cumbersome appeal process to try to get something out, and whether it meets the requirements, no one will do it. It won't be timely, and we won't get that feedback in a timely fashion.I appreciate what Mark is saying, that we don't want to turn this into printing houses for our parties. At the same time, we want it to be broadly interpreted, from our side anyway, based on certain principles that allow us to make those determinations as much as possible.Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English] Thank you.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1230)[English]To his other point, about getting certain things passed or not, other than recommendation number 2 in this list, we can talk about going through 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 if you want to separate this out. I would commit to coming back in a timely fashion. I recognize that this needs to be decided prior to the dissolution of this Parliament, but I simply need to go to my caucus with these very specific proposals to ask for their feedback. Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English]Mr. Holland.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1230)[English]Just very quickly, my suggestion is that it's totally appropriate, and I think that Mr. Strahl should have an opportunity. If we're going to hold this item down so that we can have an opportunity for consultation, maybe we can also get a clarification of whether, if we take that dial a little bit higher, that encapsulates 95%, 96% or whatever the percentage is.Constituency officesHouseholdersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBenoitGirouxBenoitGirouxBenoit-GirouxInterventionMr. Benoit Giroux: (1230)[English]We have all that. Constituency officesHouseholdersMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1230)[English]If we could look at that data, that would be helpful.The simple point I was making is that it sounds to me like there's a discussion that's worthwhile around ensuring a policy that is consistently applied, transparent and understood by all as to what constitutes fair ball for sending out these constituency mailers or householders. To me, that shouldn't be examined in the same item. That's all I'm saying.If we could have a separate conversation as a body on that matter as a different agenda item, it would allow this item to move forward expeditiously. I just don't want to hitch that issue to this wagon. Constituency officesHouseholdersBenoitGirouxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English]I will go briefly to Monsieur Dufresne, just to get a response in terms of what the process currently is for examining content and so forth.Is there, then, agreement to approve recommendations 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6, on page 5 of the note?Agreed, okay.Monsieur Dufresne. Constituency officesHouseholdersMarkHollandHon.AjaxPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1230)[English]Just briefly, Mr. Strahl, to your point, the process of review for the publications is done by my office in consultation with the parliamentary precinct. They are looked at by a counsel in my team looking at the bylaw, the rule and the idea that certain things may be partisan, but they may not be designed to support re-election of political parties and so on.We will prepare a briefing on those criteria as we understand them. I'll be following up with you as well to get a sense of whether there are any inconsistencies in the application. That's something that we will look at, and we can bring that back as part of an item if the guidelines are not acceptable to the board. This is something for the board to decide. Individual determinations can also be brought to the board in terms of challenges, but I understand the point in terms of timing. We will be coming back with analysis on that. Constituency officesGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1235)[English]Thank you.PhilippeDufresneGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[Translation]Thank you very much.We are moving on to the next agenda item, namely, the use of House premises for soliciting contributions. Speakers on this subject are Mr. Dufresne, law clerk and parliamentary counsel, and Daniel G. Paquette, chief financial officer.Mr. Dufresne, you have the floor.Fundraising and fundraisersMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1235)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.We are presenting this note, dealing with the use of House of Commons premises by a member of Parliament for soliciting contribution, to seek the board's decision and direction on the way forward. [Translation]In a video posted on his Facebook page in December 2018, the Prime Minister used his parliamentary office to ask supporters of the Liberal Party of Canada to make donations.On January 4 and 8, 2019, a representative of the LPC wrote to the Speaker offering to reimburse the amount of $500 for the use of the space in the video. The representative also indicated that the LPC will offer to reimburse individuals who submitted donations that were linked to the video recording.[English] And so, on January 7, the Speaker received the complaint and was asked to address this issue with the board. In terms of the applicable bylaws and rules, the bylaws indicate that funds, goods, resources and services may be used only for carrying out a member's parliamentary functions. Those functions are identified further with regard to activities related to a member's re-election or designed to support or oppose a political party in the context of an election or non-parliamentary functions. There is a provision that talks about support for third parties not being an allowable use and says that House resources cannot be used for the purposes of soliciting contribution.The bylaws provide that in cases of inconsistency with the bylaw, the board can determine appropriate remedies, asking that certain things be done to remedy the situation and that the amounts of money necessary to rectify it be withheld from budgets or sought.In this sense, the House administration has looked at this matter and determined, in its assessment, that no additional costs were incurred. However, the CFO of the House administration will talk about an assessment of the market value for these types of uses to assist in your consideration of this matter.Fundraising and fundraisersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1235)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Dufresne.[English]From a financial perspective, as has already been indicated, there's been no incremental cost for the House administration on this matter. To assist the board members, we've determined the value of the use of our premises. It has been assessed by looking at the costs of renting comparable hotel rooms or conference rooms here in Ottawa. Those would have ranged between $350 and $1,000.The administration today received a cheque in the amount of $500, but we have not deposited this cheque as we are still waiting for the board's decision to move forward with this matter. If the board finds that these bylaws have been breached, it can set the amount for the payment as an appropriate remedy for non-compliance.Also, the board may wish to request that the House administration provide periodic reminders to members of these related bylaws.Fundraising and fundraisersPhilippeDufresneGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English]Colleagues, could I have your comments?Mr. Strahl.DanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1240)[English]I would agree with both of those things. Cash the cheque. I would simply say—without getting into the details of this case, since I think they have been well aired—that I would anticipate that there would be an escalating penalty should a party or a member decide that this was just the cost of doing business and that they could do this if they wrote a cheque. I would just put on the record that it should not be anticipated that this is simply the cost of doing business, but that there should be recognition that this is unacceptable, and we should leave it at that.Fundraising and fundraisersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1240)[English]In the second item of the conclusion, you'll see that the second option proposed was:That the House Administration provide periodic reminders to Members regarding the By-law requirements not to use House of Commons resources for the benefit of a third party, electoral campaign activities, or for the purpose of soliciting political contributions.Is it the view of the board that this should also be done? We have agreement, then. Agreed.[Translation]Thank you very much.[English]Now we are going to have to go in camera for the—Mr. Holland.Fundraising and fundraisersMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1240)[English]Before we go in camera, I'm looking for a quick update on two items that I know were brought to the attention of the board. I believe they were looked at. One dealt with the secondary expenses of then minister Kenney during the period he was saying he was living in his mother's basement, from 2013 to 2015. I'm wondering if there's an update on that. The second was with relation to Charlie Angus. I know there was an issue with his website and solicitation of memberships and also with ads for his federal election nomination being placed, which I believe was done in error.I'm just looking for an update on those two items.ExpensesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1240)[Translation]Mr. Patrice, you have the floor.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1240)[English]We have received those two requests. The House administration is currently doing the analysis of the file and looking at the records. We'll report back at a subsequent board meeting.ExpensesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1240)[English]Okay. Thank you.Now can we go in camera for the subsequent items?Thank you very much.We'll take a break for a moment to go in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera]MichelPatrice//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0121st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, December 6, 2018Le jeudi 6 décembre 2018Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTDecember 6, 2018CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 012 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 012 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 012 (Version officielle)012061220182018/12/06 10:35:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1030)[English] This meeting of the Board of Internal Economy is called to order. Good morning, everybody.The first thing on the agenda is the minutes of the previous meeting. Are there any issues with those minutes?Seeing none, I will consider those minutes approved.Then we go to business arising from the previous meeting. Is there any business arising that isn't on the agenda?Seeing none, we'll go on to number 3, the report from the Joint Interparliamentary Council on the governance of parliamentary associations.As presenters we have Bruce Stanton, member of Parliament and co-chair of the Joint Interparliamentary Council, and Colette Labrecque-Riel, Clerk Assistant and Director General, International and Interparliamentary Affairs. Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35724BruceStantonBruce-StantonSimcoe NorthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/StantonBruce_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bruce Stanton (Co-Chair, Joint Interparliamentary Council): (1030)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning, everyone.I feel sometimes that I'm here way too often, but I appreciate all the good work you're doing on this. I'm pleased to be back in respect to a matter arising from the NATO Parliamentary Association meeting that was held on October 30.In responding to your board's request on this matter arising out of your last meeting, the JIC met yesterday afternoon at a public meeting. It considered potential responses and, frankly, resolutions to the concerns that were raised here. With the help of our clerks—Colette and her team—we were able to put forward and ultimately agree to a resolution that we hope will meet that test. We'll circulate it in a moment. Essentially, it does two things.First, it addresses the issue of a motion having been put forward by the association that involves non-confidence in the chair of the association. There would be a neutral chairperson—i.e., one of the two JIC co-chairs would chair that meeting and the deliberations on that particular motion.Second, it provides a process of appeal. Should a specific number of members feel that there was a contravention of the constitution as it pertained to that particular meeting, within a certain number of days, if they wished to, they could give notice of appeal and have that process taken up by the JIC itself.If possible, we'll circulate the motion and go through it briefly, and then I'll be happy to take any questions.While those are being circulated, I should say that the JIC adopted this motion at its meeting yesterday, and it is prepared to follow through with it. The motion is as follows:That, notwithstanding any provision in association constitutions or usual practice, effective upon the adoption of this motion, when a matter relating to the confidence in the Chair of an Association arises at an association general meeting, the following procedure shall apply:a. One of the JIC Co-Chairs shall preside over the meeting during the consideration of the matter;b. Ten (10) percent of the membership but no less than ten (10) members of the association may appeal a decision of the general assembly relating to the confidence in the Chair to the Joint Interparliamentary Council, by notifying the Clerk of the Council in writing within 10 sitting days following the meeting of the general assembly; and such notice shall cite which provision of the association's constitution has been breached; (c) The Council shall meet to consider the appeal within 15 sitting days following receipt of this notice;(d) The general assembly's decision which is the subject of the appeal will take effect unless the JIC co-chairs, upon receipt of the notice of appeal, instruct that it be suspended until the appeal is resolved definitively by the JIC.That all associations be informed of this new procedure. That's essentially it, in a nutshell. It achieves the two things.As a final point, I'll make a brief comment. There was considerable discussion about the notion of suspending the decision of the general assembly. As a compromise, we were able to come to an agreement that there would be a stopgap provision there. For example, if the decision taken by the general assembly was aggrieved by the given number of members, and if the infractions of the constitution were sufficiently egregious, the co-chairs could effectively suspend that decision. They would take a look at that. The appeal would still go through, one way or the other, but there was considerable discussion on whether a decision taken involving the confidence of a co-chair and subsequently appealed should require that the association's decision be suspended until the appeal had taken place.(1035) I think we resolved that by putting that interim step in place as an option. The JIC chairs would simply review what the appeal was about, look at the substantive aspects of it, and then make a decision as to whether that decision should be suspended or not pending the appeal.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1035)[English]Thank you.Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.BruceStantonSimcoe NorthMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1035)[English] I would like to thank you, Mr. Stanton, for your leadership on this issue. I think this is something that our members were looking for, and I believe that it dovetails very nicely with the Speaker's ruling on this matter in the House of Commons. From my perspective, this gives us the assurance that we need that the rights of all members will be taken into account. I understand that the JIC, like this body, operates on a consensus basis, so it wouldn't simply be the case that the majority would have the ability to take a decision that doesn't respect the minority, which I think is, from our perspective, what this has been about from the outset. I want to thank you and the team for coming forward with a compromise that I think will allow us to move forward in a good way.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35724BruceStantonBruce-StantonSimcoe NorthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/StantonBruce_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bruce Stanton: (1040)[English]Thank you for that. You're right. This was discussed yesterday as well. In the same way that this board functions, the JIC also does. The Speakers' rulings—particularly the House Speaker's ruling—were incredibly informative in terms of strengthening, underlining, and stating to what degree the JIC is given authority, frankly, by the two boards here in Parliament, and the responsibility it has to be the regulator should the constitutions of the association fail to provide the kind of fairness that those constitutions should. We're there as a secondary stop for that. Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1040)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Bergen.BruceStantonSimcoe NorthCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1040)[English] Thank you, Chair.Thank you as well, Mr. Stanton and Ms. Riel, for the work that you've done on this issue. My concern, as I articulated a week ago, is that I think these associations have by and large served the purpose for which they have been created. They have been non-partisan and a very positive part of what we do here in Parliament for many, many years. I think this is good. I don't anticipate that we'll see what we saw happen at the end of October, which was disgraceful. I don't think we will see that happen again—hopefully—because we're going to be able to operate as we always have in these situations, and not in a partisan way. That doesn't mean that we won't see chairs moved out because the party they represent is not the party that's in government. We all understand that happens. However, there are rules around that, and they should be respected. When we're in government after the next election, it will be a different makeup of JIC. That will be a check and a balance for us, to ensure that even though we are in government and we will maybe have the majority on some of these committees, we can't use that to lord it or enact tyranny over the group. I think this is good. This was created, unfortunately, for an extreme circumstance that is not the norm, but it has given us all the assurance that this won't happen again.My only regret is that we can't go back and right the wrong that was done. This obviously isn't retroactive, and I understand that, but at least we know it won't happen again, and I'm happy for that.Thank you. Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35724BruceStantonBruce-StantonSimcoe NorthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/StantonBruce_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bruce Stanton: (1040)[English]Those are good points, all. It should be noted that once the associations are provided with this mechanism, of course they still have the tools that are given to them in their constitution and can still in fact request special general meetings. That tool is still available for them. Nothing in here impugns that ability for the associations. Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1040)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Holland.BruceStantonSimcoe NorthMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Chief Government Whip): (1040)[English]Very briefly, obviously we view events as they transpired differently, but I'm glad that we were able to find an accommodation that allows us to move forward.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1040)[English]Thank you. Seeing nothing further on this, we can I think move on to the next item, which is item 3.B., the 65th Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference in Halifax in January 2021. We had the submission last time. Are there any comments from members on this proposal, this request from the JIC?Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1040)[English] For both issues, I am unsure of what percentage of the budget is related directly to hospitality. Do we have that information?Obviously when we host, we want to do that well, but I just would like to know, considering the taxpayers who are paying for this, what exactly the portion is, outside of renting space, etc., for meals and beverages and all the rest of it. I would like to get some idea of that. Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35724BruceStantonBruce-StantonSimcoe NorthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/StantonBruce_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bruce Stanton: (1045)[English]For the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, on that particular conference the total budget is $1.5 million. The total hospitality on that is roughly 30%. That involves a welcoming dinner reception, lunches, a second dinner reception and a farewell dinner. It's mostly food—health breaks and that kind of thing—but it represents about 30%. I am given to understand that it's the usual kind of proportionate aspect of a budget for this kind of conference.Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1045)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Chagger. BruceStantonSimcoe NorthBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1045)[English] Thank you.We like having you here, Mr. Stanton. I asked last week if there was historical data, because we think that if we keep some of that kind of information, we should be able to be better informed future ones. I know that the information has not been received, so although I said last week that I would like to see this move forward, I would like some of that information to be provided so I can see what kind of records we keep and that it's in line. Thank you. Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColette-Labrecque-RielInterventionMs. Colette Labrecque-Riel (Clerk Assistant and Director General, International and Interparliamentary Affairs, House of Commons): (1045)[English] Mr. Speaker, we are doing that comparison as we speak. I can, however, share that the previous conference in 2004 for the CPA, for example, which is a slightly different type of conference, was actually twice the price. Again, that would speak to the difference in the parameters that Ms. Ratansi referred to in terms of the host country no longer being fully responsible for the accommodation or the meals, so there are significant savings to the host country.We will provide a detailed analysis with respect to the previous CPA conference, as you requested, as well as the OSCE one. The comparison will be slightly difficult because it was in 1995, but we will be able to do that. Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1045)[English]I recognize that it's hard to compare it with 1995, but I think we should recognize that, yes, there are increased costs, and we understand that. That's exactly why those comparisons take place. It should be line by line, and we should be able to see what.... If we're taking out the hospitality, the rooms and whatever else that we no longer have to cover, it should not be.... I think Excel existed in 1995, so to take those lines out and to be able to deal with that, and then....Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColette-Labrecque-RielInterventionMs. Colette Labrecque-Riel: (1045)[English]Yes, absolutely. The difficulty is actually finding the records of 30 years ago. That's my difficulty. Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1045)[English]That's unfortunate.Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColette-Labrecque-RielInterventionMs. Colette Labrecque-Riel: (1045)[English]We could also provide you with a comparison for these two conferences as compared to comparable recent conferences that we've held in the past year.Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1045)[English]If there was Excel in 1995, it was based on Windows 3.1, DOS, which is a very different animal, I suppose, from today. You had to have Winsock and connect to the Internet and all that stuff.Shall we start with proposal B, here, the 65th CPA Conference? Is that proposal approved?It's agreed. Is the OSCE proposal approved? It is. Thank you very much.[Translation]We now move to item 4 on the agenda: “Services to members—office supplies and stationery.”Here to tell us about that are Daniel Paquette, the Chief Financial Officer, and Benoit Giroux, the Chief Operations Officer.[English]While we're waiting for them to get ready, we'll go to Mr. Strahl. Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsMembers' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentColetteLabrecque-RielMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1045)[English]Perhaps as a matter for the agenda today, which is extremely full, I am hoping that perhaps—I know these are numbered items—the matters that must be completed today should take priority. I don't anticipate that we will go super-long, but we do have several items. I just want to make sure that the ones that require our sign-off today are given priority. I don't know if we can jump around a bit, but that would be our preference for both the public and the in camera portions: that we concentrate first on those that we must complete today. Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1050)[English] We will monitor the time and do our best to accommodate that request. Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1050)[English]Thank you, sir.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1050)[English]Monsieur Paquette, you have the floor.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1050)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.It is my pleasure to present a submission seeking the Board's approval to modernize certain policies in the Members' Allowances and Services Manual on office supplies and personalized stationery.[English]As has already been mentioned at the last board meeting, we're making many efforts to ensure that the House will be able to keep the cost of its operations within its existing overall budget. In order to do so, as we change how we do our business, we must ensure that we balance the utilization of the various individual budget envelopes. As decided at the last board meeting, the cost of certain computers and printers will now be charged to a centrally managed budget instead of to the member's office budget, which is referred to as the MOB. In order to help balance this decision, we are proposing changes to certain other policies and practices that affect how certain costs are charged centrally or to the MOB—that is, an opportunity to balance the cost savings of the member's office budget resulting from the previous provisions. This submission is also part of the House administration's ongoing commitment to ensuring excellence in the delivery of services to members. It is an opportunity to update and streamline the current policies on office supplies and stationery so that they are in line with today's business practices.Our objective with the submissions is to ensure discretionary spending incurred by a member is applied against the member's office budget, to remove ineffective or restrictive limits and thereby reduce some of the administrative burden for members, and to simplify the purchasing process of office supplies and stationery for members. I'll start with the discretionary expenses, which we are proposing should be charged to the member's office budget.[Translation]Currently, members are provided with paper and envelopes up to pre-set limits, as a charge against the central administration budget.Members may, however, buy additional quantities, charged to their office budgets, if they so wish.[English]In addition, members wishing to purchase office supplies must currently choose among four different price lists in the House of Commons stationery catalogue, since some basic items are charged to the House administration's central budgets and others are charged to the MOB. This creates an administrative burden for members and their employees in the procurement of day-to-day supplies. Members select supplies for their daily office operations at their own discretion and based on their preferences, so these costs are most appropriately charged to their MOB. Streamlining the number of price lists and budgets for office supplies will simplify the procurement process and allow members to continue to benefit from House-negotiated prices for those office supplies. It is proposed that the cost of non-standard size envelopes for parliamentary offices be charged to the MOB. The cost of paper and envelopes for constituency offices will be charged also to the MOB, and all costs associated with purchasing all office supplies will be charged to the MOB.Another proposal in this submission relates to copying charges.[Translation]In 2013, the Board approved the replacement of the existing, single-purpose printers, copiers, scanners and fax machines in Members' offices by one networked, multi-functional device and one backup desktop printer.The maintenance and support services for those multi-functional devices were authorized as a charge against the central administration budget.[English]Similar to office supplies, multi-function device copying usage charges are considered discretionary in nature. Therefore, the proposals to standardize the approach for delivering and managing computer and printing equipment in constituency offices would see these utilization charges applied against the MOB. The proposal to also apply the copy usage charge for the parliamentary office against the MOB would align the practice between the parliamentary and constituency offices.In turn, we would like to propose the elimination of certain limits on some of the items that are provided centrally by the House. The House administration currently provides members with established limits of a variety of goods and services to support their daily office operations and then to enable them to communicate with their constituents. [Translation]The House administration has observed that some limits are ineffective and too strict, specifically those dealing with paper, envelopes, letterhead and wish cards.However, members may exceed those limits by using their office budgets to buy more supplies, if it becomes necessary.(1055)[English] To reduce the administrative burden to members and their employees associated with managing these limits and to modernize the business practice in light of the declining usage, the House administration is proposing to remove the applicable limits around paper, envelopes, letterhead and wish cards. As well, as part of the printing and mailing modernization project and in in line with current office technology, we are proposing to centrally provide to members a reasonable quantity of paper and standard personalized printed envelopes in letter and legal formats for their parliamentary offices, and an electronic letterhead template as an alternative to hard-copy letterhead, while still providing reasonable on-demand printing of letterheads when required and a reasonable on-demand printing of wish cards with the envelopes. To align the timing of these proposals, we recommend that the recommendations come into effect after the next election, which is in line with the managed computing proposal that was approved at the last meeting.Mr. Chairman, this concludes my presentation for this submission. We're ready to answer any of the questions the board members may have.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1055)[English]Thank you very much.Are there any questions?DanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1055)[English]You might end up having 338 different ideas of what is reasonable, and my question would be, who is making those determinations? Obviously, how the process generally would work is that the House financial management would say that it was unreasonable, and then the member could challenge whether it was reasonable, and we'd just get into a runaround. This, I assume, for 90% or higher of members, is not an issue. I don't think I've ever come close to reaching any of my established limits, but some go over. Perhaps you can explain the decision to go from a hard cap to a reasonable standard, which may involve a lot more work for your office and mine.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBenoitGirouxBenoitGirouxBenoit-GirouxInterventionMr. Benoit Giroux (Chief Operations Officer, Parliamentary Precinct Operations, House of Commons): (1055)[English] Thank you, Mr. Strahl. I'll answer that question.The limits we currently have are not exceeded in most cases. Our removing those limits would make it easier for everybody to order. Some of those limits were very prescriptive—for example, you could not order more than 2,500 envelopes at a time. We're removing that limit.In terms of what we would consider reasonable, as we mentioned, we have not seen many excesses in the last year. We have averages, and we're going to monitor that. If, for instance, a member submits something that's way over what we would consider the average, then we would have discussions with the member's office to better understand their requirements and find a solution to meet their requirements.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1055)[English]Obviously when we're bringing this to our members, we can sell it as, “Yes, you're going to pay more for stationery, but you're going to be relieved of the burden for computers.” Do you have any idea what the net is? Is it a net zero? I would assume that I spend more on computing equipment than I do on paper. Have you done the analysis for an average member? What is the net effect on their budget for these two changes in concert?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentBenoitGirouxDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1055)[English]If we look globally overall, all the MPs combined, there is a gain of almost half a million dollars from more flexibility within the MOBs. Now, individually, the utilization of these various products or limits vary. We did the analysis for one point in time for one fiscal year. There was a handful of MPs who would have been a little short for that particular year.Computers are usually not bought as one computer per year; they're bought in bulk. If we look at a full Parliament of about four years, we expect that the majority, if not all, would be as well off financially, if not better off.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1055)[English]I think you mean half a million dollars for the aggregate of the members' offices.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1055)[English]It's the aggregate, yes, not individual MPs, yes.Voices: Oh, oh!Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1100)[English]Ms. Bergen is next.DanielPaquetteCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1100)[English]I Just have one question.If an MP, though, just recently spent a portion of their MOB to upgrade or purchase new printing equipment, is there a little bit of leeway for them? Is there going to be a problem with some who have spent, and now that they've spent that money, they don't need another printer? Are they going to be short?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1100)[English] That's why the coming into force of these recommendations is after the next election.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1100)[English]Right.DanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1100)[English]As we discussed at the last meeting, the computers have a life cycle of about four or five years. Sometime during the next Parliament they will be needing those computers. That's where the savings over that period of time will come for them.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1100)[English]Good. Thanks.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1100)[English]Is there anyone else?Thank you.Does the board wish to approve this proposal? That is agreed. Thank you.The next item we have is a rather important and vital one. That would be the main estimates for 2019-20.Mr. Paquette, we'll go back to you, sir.Main estimates 2019-2020Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1100)[English]Again, thank you, Mr. Speaker.I will now present the proposed 2019-20 interim and main estimates and seek approval from the board.First I would like to point out that these estimates summarize all of the funding requests that relate to items previously approved by the board. As such, there is no new request for funding in this presentation.The total proposed 2019-20 main estimates being sought for the House of Commons amount to $503.4 million, which does represent an increase compared to last year's main estimates.[Translation]The main estimates of the Government of Canada are tabled annually in Parliament. They represent the estimated spending plans for the upcoming fiscal year. In accordance with the Parliament of Canada Act, the House of Commons must compile its expenditure estimates for the upcoming fiscal year and submit them to Treasury Board for tabling along with the main estimates of the Government of Canada.It is very likely that the government will table interim estimates for the 2019-2020 year at the end of January, as it did last year. The interim estimates contain the financial requirements for the first three months of this financial year, because the interim estimates form a sub-category of the main estimates. I emphasize that my presentation today is focused on the full main estimates for the 2019-2020 year.The main estimates of the House include an estimate for statutory and voted expenditures. Voted expenditures are estimated at $350 million and they mostly include expenses for Members and House Officers, committees, parliamentary associations and exchanges, and the administration. The statutory expenditures are estimated at $154 million. They include salaries and allowances for Members and House Officers, contributions to retirement funds, and contributions to employee benefit programs for all.[English]Although the overall budget request is lower, there are various elements making up the main estimates that do fluctuate.In terms of new funding requests that were approved during the fiscal year, these include the cost-of-living increase, based on previously approved policies and existing legislation. For example, the office budgets and supplements for members and House officers, as well as the travel status expenses accounts, have been increased by 1.5%, for a total of $2.4 million. This is in accordance with the adjusted consumer price index.In addition, the sessional allowance and additional salaries for members and House officers have been increased by 1.7%, or $1 million, as provided by the Parliament of Canada Act.The economic increases for House administration employees amount to $1.5 million, which is included in these estimates. These were approved earlier during the year by the board.As for major initiatives, the funding includes $1 million for managed computing in the constituency, which was approved at the last board meeting. This is offset by $400,000 from planned variances of previously approved year-over-year changes in the funding profiles for such initiatives as digital content dissemination and our long-term vision and plan.The main estimates also include a $9.3-million decrease in contributions to the members' pension plan due to the revised contribution rates for those members. It also includes a decrease of $1.4 million related to funding for conferences, associations and assemblies held earlier this year.(1105)[Translation]In conclusion, it is recommended that the Board approve the main estimates for the House proposed for the 2019-2020 year in the amount of $503.4 million. The proposed funds will be divided between two programs, $302 million for the Members and House Officers program and $201 million for the administration program. It is also recommended that an amount of $87.5 million be included in the interim estimates proposed for the same financial year.[English] I can now answer questions relating to these main estimates, and I can also take any questions that you may have about the in-year second quarter report on our financial activities for the current year, which is also provided in your package.Interim estimates 2019-2020Main estimates 2019-2020GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1105)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.DanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1105)[English]In looking at spending in a fiscal year and year over year, I think we've certainly seen the numbers since 2014-15. By my calculation it looks as if it's gone up about $80 million over that time. I'm sure some of that had to do with an increased number of members, and then there was also a very large increase in the members' operating budgets, as I recall.I am wondering if the House of Commons has ever been required to undergo the dreaded strategic and operating review. If so, when was the last time that was done? I just want to make sure there is some effort on some sort of schedule to find efficiencies within the $500-million-a-year operation. I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Is that done, and if not, when would it be done next?Interim estimates 2019-2020Main estimates 2019-2020GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1105)[English]The last time it was officially done was around the 2011-12 time frame, and significant adjustments were done at that point. I think reaching that threshold of $500 million opened everybody's eyes. As we're coming to the various submissions going forward, we rechallenge ourselves in making sure what incremental capacity is needed. If you notice, the submissions we came through over the last year always made sure to address the full cost of that new initiative and what incremental cost we're truly asking for and what we can absorb within existing capacities. We are keeping that in mind item by item and making sure we can go forward and justify the size of our current budget and operations.Interim estimates 2019-2020Main estimates 2019-2020MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1105)[English]Thank you.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1105)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Bergen.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1105)[English]Thank you.I was going to ask the same thing. I think right now, with the renovations going on and finishing at West Block and starting here at Centre Block very soon, it's interesting how many times, when people tour they ask about the cost and how things cost so much and seem to always cost more here in government than they do in the private sector. Thinking about these numbers, I think it would be really helpful if at some point we could come up with a plan. What is the best way to incentivize savings? It's a little more difficult here because we aren't the private sector, where profit matters, whether we have shareholders to pay or we have to make a profit for our own benefit. That's not what's driving us here. We don't have that. What we have to think about is that our shareholders, the people we're accountable to, are taxpayers. I'm sure this is a question that all governments ask themselves. My comments are in line with what Mr. Strahl was talking about. Maybe it would be beneficial at some point, when we don't have a full agenda as we do today, to have a discussion around what we did in 2011 and 2012; where that took us; where we are today and what we could do to ensure we are being the most prudent and efficient as possible in using these taxpayers' dollars most wisely.I also want to say thank you. You did come back with a much more detailed report. Thank you for the work you did on that. I know we all appreciate that.Interim estimates 2019-2020Main estimates 2019-2020GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1105)[English]Thank you.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1105)[English]Are there any further questions or concerns about these two reports?Go ahead, Madam Chagger.DanielPaquetteBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1105)[English]In the main estimates, I see the House administration is higher for 2019-20 than the previous year, and then the main estimates funding for members and House officers is lower year over year. I'm just wondering why that might be, or what's anticipated—what you see that we might not know.Interim estimates 2019-2020Main estimates 2019-2020GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1110)[English]In the case of the administration, there have been the cost-of-living increases and some of the costs related to the move and the increase in various services we're offering. When we look at the members' side, we see the adjustment of $9.3 million for the pension contribution. If I were to reverse out that one-time reduction, we're probably in a similar growth pattern because of the indexing and cost-of-living increases that we are all having.Interim estimates 2019-2020Main estimates 2019-2020BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1110)[English] Are there any further questions or concerns?Are the two reports on the main estimates accepted, adopted? I see they are. I think we're doing quite well with the time so far. I suggest we carry on to number 6, the modernization of members' policies.Mr. Paquette, you're taking this one too. You have a busy day. We'll go over to you.Interim estimates 2019-2020Main estimates 2019-2020Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1110)[English]Thank you again, Mr. Speaker.In May of this year, I appeared before the board to propose several amendments relating to our travel policy, and I did get the board's approval. In our continuous effort to modernize some of our policies to better support the members in doing their parliamentary functions, we're bringing to you today more topics to help us on that path.The House administration recognizes that the challenges faced by members are becoming more and more complex with modern business practices, in particular in the characteristics of each of the constituencies, which require forward-looking, integrated and more flexible policies to move forward. Today's presentation follows up on requests that were made here to the board by members representing large, remote and sparsely populated constituencies to review their policies and recognize the high cost to serve and represent constituencies with their specific needs.This is to help discharge some of their functions in those great distances between their borders, atypical or irregular population distribution, and the geographical challenges that limit their transportation alternatives. This is a complex matter for which we have been doing extensive consultation with members. This submission highlights the steps we have already taken to address some of these particular matters, as well as new ones we are proposing today. We'd like to get the board's support on a way forward.I will ask José Fernandez to highlight some of the items in the submission. Then we'll be open to questions.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestJoséFernandezJoséFernandezJosé-FernandezInterventionMr. José Fernandez (Deputy Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1110)[English] Following up on these requests, the House administration undertook a series of consultations with these members, as well as additional members, to ensure a more complete representation of the various realities within Canada.In total, 21 members from all recognized parties were consulted to understand their needs and challenges in carrying out their parliamentary functions. Last May, as Daniel mentioned, the House administration presented several recommendations resulting from the consultation process for the board's consideration, to provide additional flexibility to members in the use of travel resources and to be more responsive to personal circumstances.One particular change that the board approved was to broaden the definition of “regular trip” to include trips within the constituency and to the provincial and territorial capitals. This provided members representing large constituencies access to the full travel points allocation to meet and stay connected with their constituents.Building on these recommendations, the House administration is proposing further amendments for the board's consideration to better enable members to carry out their parliamentary functions. These proposals are meant to recognize the current challenges of members representing large, remote and sparsely populated constituencies and to ensure equity in the resource allocation for all members. The first proposal relates to accommodation and per diem expenses. Currently when members travel in the discharge of their parliamentary functions, they may charge accommodation and per diem meals to the travel status expense account or their member's office budget. The transportation expenses are charged to the travel points system, which is a House central budget.The current policies also allow for the reimbursement of accommodation expenses for necessary stops during a trip because of external factors outside the control of the member, such as weather-related problems. These are involuntary stopovers.To reach some remote, rural or northern constituencies, members must deal with long plane trips, often with connecting flights, followed by road travel, as some members live far away from the airport. The current policy does not extend the reimbursement of accommodation and per diem expenses for voluntary stopovers that they may incur during these long trips. To foster safe travel practices without putting unnecessary pressure on the resources provided to members for the discharge of their parliamentary functions, the House administration proposes to allow, regardless of whether the member is in travel status or not, accommodation and per diem expenses incurred the day before or after a regular trip, under special circumstances, for the safety and well-being of the member. We propose that these accommodation and per diem expenses be charged against the travel points system, which is a House central budget.Our next proposal is related to accommodation in the constituency. For members representing northern or remote constituencies, commercial accommodation is often a sporadic commodity. With so few options, members are often unable to secure commercial accommodation in smaller communities and must resort to private accommodations that are offered by residents of those communities, other than the family of the member.The cost charged to members sometimes exceeds the current reimbursement rate for private accommodations, which is set at $50 per night. In addition, members visiting these remote areas are required to stay at one hotel or private accommodation for at least a week. They use it as a hub and they take the opportunity to visit other smaller communities where lodging is not available. However, the current policy limits members staying in one location to four consecutive nights.In order to ensure that all members have access to the same resources regardless of where the constituency is located, the House administration proposes to amend the current policy to allow members, when in travel status, to claim accommodation expenses up to seven consecutive nights in each location and to be reimbursed a reasonable rate for non-commercial accommodation when commercial accommodations are non-existent and receipts are provided.(1115)[Translation]There are also expenses within the constituency. When Members are in travel status, that is, more than 100 km from their primary residence, they can claim meal expenses.However, under the current policy, when Members attend an event taking place in their constituency, but, say, 75 km from their primary residence, they cannot claim meal expenses.But employees can claim meal expenses when they travel more than 16 km from their normal place of work, which is the constituency office.The proposal, therefore, is that Members may claim meal expenses when they are travelling within their constituency and are more than 16 km from their primary residence. However, that would not apply to daily commuting trips to and from their constituency office.Our final proposal is about satellite telephones. Some Members and their employees sometimes have to travel in communities where stretches of road may have no cellular network. The inability to call for help in an emergency may therefore put their safety at risk.Unpredictable and rapidly changing weather may also create additional pressure on them.[English] In order to ensure the necessary means to secure assistance when it is needed, the House administration proposes to, and I quote:amend the policy to allow the Chief Financial Officer (CFO), in consultation with the Chief Information Officer (CIO), to review, assess and provide for the purchase of satellite phones, supported by a written justification from the Member, as an eligible expense to the House Administration central budget. The monthly costs—the data plans, airtime and long-distance calls—as well as the cost of standard accessories would be charged to the member's office budget.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1115)[English]In addition to these proposals, the House administration is also seeking the board's support to undertake a review of the budget and supplements, taking into consideration the evolving needs and requirements of members and the various challenges in particular ridings in order to carry out their parliamentary functions.We will validate the scope of this review with your respective offices before we get started. The House administration will report back to the board on the results of this study and make recommendations that may include modification to the member's office budget supplements to ensure their relevance and appropriateness while continuing to meet the evolving needs of members. Such recommendations are intended to be brought forward only following the next general election, given the time we would need to do this assessment.Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to answer any questions the members may have relating to this proposal.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentJoséFernandezGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[English]Thank you.There are really two parts to this. One is the proposed adjustments to the current rules, and the second is to have approval to go ahead with the review that you're proposing.Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1120)[English]Thank you.I have a couple of things. You mentioned non-commercial accommodations, and I believe I heard you say “other than family”. That's already prescribed in the by-laws currently.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestJoséFernandezJoséFernandezJosé-FernandezInterventionMr. José Fernandez: (1120)[English]Yes, you're right.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1120)[English]Is there anything in this proposal...? I have some members who have, for instance, a travel trailer that they might use to get around their very large constituency, especially in the summer. Obviously there are additional costs to that. I'm not sure this measure would capture that. Non-commercial accommodations, I assume, cannot be something that are a member's own asset. I guess I'm trying to find a way.... This has been brought to my attention before. This is simply for people staying in homes or bed and breakfasts. What are we talking about here? What is included, and what would not be?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentJoséFernandezDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1120)[English]Usually it is bed and breakfasts, homes, private residences, places of that nature.In terms of this scenario, I guess the accommodation would be the fee for the campsite and the kilometres, because they are travelling with their personal vehicle. On incremental costs relating to the usage of those assets, we've heard of the situation, but at this point we haven't a recommendation to bring forward to the board to adapt that policy for this circumstance.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1120)[English]When this is happening, when someone is staying at a friend's place or something like that, is there a paper trail there, or does the member simply say, “I wasn't at home. I wasn't at a hotel. I'd like $80, please.”?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1120)[English]We do ask for supporting documentation.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1120)[English]And if the friend got the money, not the member....Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1120)[English]That's right.I assume that all members are honest—Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1120)[English]Absolutely.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1120)[English]—and want to make sure that they do this.We're looking at it right now. The situation is we have on file about 300 cases. That's why we are bringing it forward. The members are currently out of pocket. They're actually providing us evidence, signed by the people where they resided, for what they paid as a reasonable rate. We're at this point making sure that the members personally are not out of pocket for delivery of their parliamentary function.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[English]Wasn't it Ronald Reagan who said, “Trust, but verify”?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1120)[English]Your quoting Ronald Reagan, Mr. Speaker, is a good day for me.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Chagger.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1120)[English]Thank you for your work, as always.In regard to the satellite phones, because you have a little bit of a sample size, how many are you anticipating? How many members will need to be considered for that, and do we have an idea of the overall expense? Then, where did the 16 kilometres come from?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1120)[English] We get that last question quite often. I'll start with that one.It is a very common practice. Right now, we use it for employees across various public services. When you are outside of your office and more than 16 kilometres away, you are allowed to collect a per diem, so that's where we got a reasonable number of kilometres. We used something that was already in common practice. That's where the number comes from.As for the satellite phone, our assessment is that there are about 21 constituencies that could probably qualify for this, if the member identifies a need, but that depends on how they are travelling within their constituency. It's not a large proportion of members in terms of current cellphone coverage and where the population resides.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1125)[English]What is the approximate cost?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[English]The phone itself is about $1,200, which will be paid centrally, and then the usage will come out of the member's office budget. Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English]Is there anyone else?There is not. In that case, is the proposal approved? I see that it is. Before we go in camera, I think that we should note that this appears to be our last Board of Internal Economy meeting in this building—for us, at least. I suppose that future Boards of Internal Economy will be meeting here in some years. It's going to be an interesting time and a sad moment to leave, although I know that we're looking forward to the interesting experience of being in West Block, but we'll miss this building. That's for sure. Now we will take a little break while we go in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera]Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0111st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, November 29, 2018Le jeudi 29 novembre 2018Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTNovember 29, 2018CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 011 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 011 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 011 (Version officielle)011291120182018/11/29 11:20:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1115)[English] This meeting of the Board of Internal Economy is called to order.First of all, we have the minutes of the previous meeting. Are there any issues with the minutes of the previous meeting? No. Is there any business arising from the previous meeting?I don't see any, so we'll now go on to the first presentation. We have the Joint Interparliamentary Council.Do you want to lead off on this, Charles? Thank you.International meetingsCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert (Clerk of the House of Commons): (1115)[Translation] Before going into the details of the review of the proposals and their impact on the 2019-20 main estimates, I want to make a general comment.[English]As you will see, there are a number of submissions to be presented today before you consider the proposed main estimates. We have thought carefully about these initiatives and have consulted with all House officers to ensure that what we are proposing will meet the needs of members. This is aligned to our new vision of providing outstanding services to members and their staff so that they are properly supported in fulfilling their parliamentary functions.We have also looked at the financial implications of these submissions with a view to remaining within the existing funding allocation of the House. Without pre-empting your decision on these submissions, I am pleased to point out that these expenditures proposed for the main estimates of 2019-20 will be no greater than our main estimates for the current year.[Translation]My team and I are ready to answer all your questions.Clerk of the House of CommonsMain estimatesMain estimates 2019-2020GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1115)[English]We'll go to the presenters we have before us this morning.We have Yasmin Ratansi, Member of Parliament, Chair of the Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. We also have Colette Labrecque-Riel, Clerk Assistant and Director General, International and Interparliamentary Affairs, and the Honourable Hedy Fry, who is the Director, OSCE PA, Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association.Good morning.CharlesRobertColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColette-Labrecque-RielInterventionMs. Colette Labrecque-Riel (Clerk Assistant and Director General, International and Interparliamentary Affairs, House of Commons): (1115)[English] Good morning.Before having Ms. Ratansi begin her presentation, I want to confirm something. Normally Mr. Stanton would have been here as the co-chair of the Joint Interparliamentary Council, but he's unavailable for this meeting. I just want to confirm that, indeed, the Joint Interparliamentary Council did study these two proposals at its meeting of May 30. The council had a discussion in terms of the timing of these conferences. The council is satisfied that the administration is in a position to be able to support appropriately these two large conferences. The council is also satisfied that the budget proposals presented to it were prepared in line with past practices and parameters for previous conferences that the Parliament of Canada has hosted.I will now turn the floor over to Ms. Ratansi.International meetingsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestYasminRatansiDon Valley East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25449YasminRatansiYasmin-RatansiDon Valley EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/RatansiYasmin_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Yasmin Ratansi (Chair, Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association): (1120)[English] Thank you, Colette.Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for allowing us this opportunity to present before you the ask for hosting the 65th Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference in 2021.Here's a little background on why we are here to ask. In July 2017, in Winnipeg, the Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which is made up of the provinces, territories and federal representatives, discussed the possibility of hosting the 2020 Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference if changes were adopted at the preceding conference for a different model of hosting this conference.The last time Canada hosted this conference was in 1994, in Banff. Then, in 2004, Canada hosted EXCO, which is the executive committee, in Ottawa, and then it did the two conferences in a split between Quebec City and Toronto. Since then, we have refused to host the conference until such time as changes are made to the hosting parameters.Unlike conferences of other associations, CPA's conference hosting parameters required that the host country be responsible for accommodation and meal costs for all delegates. After several years of negotiation, in November 2017, in Bangladesh, Canada with other like-minded partners succeeded in introducing the new conference model. This is a two-year pilot project. Under the new model, the host would no longer be responsible for accommodation and all meals of all delegates. In July 2018, in Ottawa, the Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association accepted to offer to host the conference in Halifax in January 2021. Since there will be no conference in 2018, the first conference using the new model will be 2019 in Uganda. The executive of the CPA has accepted the proposal of the Canadian region to host the conference in January 2021 under the terms and conditions of the new funding model.Having succeeded in bringing about these major changes, it is important for Canada to organize this conference in 2021 since we have not hosted it in 16 years. As well, we are the architects of this new model for the conference, and we would like to test it where necessary and to help improve it going forward.The hosting of this conference by Canada will help demonstrate our leadership role in the Commonwealth, and we have done a lot to move the leadership and governance needle forward. There will be approximately 500 participants. The conference will consist of six elements: the executive committee; small branches conferences; the Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians steering committee; plenary and workshop sessions; the general assembly meeting; and the Society of Clerks-at-the-Table conference.The estimated budget before you has been reviewed and approved by the Joint Interparliamentary Council and by the Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and efforts have been made in the budget to reduce the costs. The funding model for the Canadian region involves a fifty-fifty sharing between the federal branch and the 13 provincial and territorial branches. As part of the funding model, the Parliament of Canada provides the secretariat for this conference.Our ask for the fiscal year 2019-20 from the House of Commons is $77,081—or 35% of the total budget—and $426,971 for the year 2020-21, which is the year in which the conference would be implemented, so the total cost to the House of Commons would be $504,052. The provinces and territories will also have to do a similar approval process.This completes my presentation, and I am prepared to answer any questions you should have.Thank you.Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsColetteLabrecque-RielGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English]Shall we do both first, and then have questions? Is that the wish of members? Okay. Ms. Fry, go ahead.YasminRatansiDon Valley EastHedyFryHon.Vancouver Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1589HedyFryHon.Hedy-FryVancouver CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FryHedy_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Hedy Fry (Director, OSCE PA, Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association): (1125)[English] Thank you very much.Thank you for listening to my presentation. It's my pleasure to bring forward the concept that Canada should host, in 2020, the big summer conference of the OSCE PA, which is a large conference. OSCE is the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, and the Parliamentary Assembly is a very large one, so that we are looking at something like 700 delegates coming from 56 nations. I think it's important to note that the OSCE is the world's largest regional security organization under chapter VIII of the United Nations Charter. We were asked, two years ago, by the OSCE PA to host the summer conference in 2020. There are three conferences hosted each year by the OSCE PA. One is in Vienna. It's called the winter meeting, and it's always very much like a business meeting. The second one is the summer conference, which is the one we're asking about. The third one is a fall conference that highlights issues dealing with Mediterranean problems and Middle East problems. The event that we are asking to host will bring about 700 people, as I said, from 56 nation-states. Canada and the United States are the only two countries outside of Europe and Central Asia that are involved in the OSCE; in fact, a very long time ago—actually, 40 years ago—we were responsible for bringing about the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which was to deal with the Cold War at the time.It is really important that Canada play a role. We were asked to do so because Canada is seen as having a huge role to play in terms of some of the big issues that are being dealt with now—cybersecurity; foreign interference by countries such as Russia, as we know; and when we look at Europe, intervention in elections, intervention in the business and security of nation-states. We are also looking at the fact that there is an extreme set of governments across Europe that no longer want to be involved in democracy and democratic institutions. Canada has a huge role to play within that sphere. We now note that in the recent aggression by Russia against Ukraine—once again a big issue—Canada is seen as a major player in this forum. As well, the issue of freedom of the press and the issue of democratic institutions are at play here in this particular meeting. The last time we hosted a fall meeting was about 30 years ago, so Canada is really supposed to come up and belly up to the bar now. The reason is that, of the 56 nation-states that make up the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, very many of them are not capable of hosting this kind of event. We are looking at countries that are recovering from conflict—Bosnia, and others. We're looking at Central Asian countries that just don't have the capacity or the resources to host it.Many of the countries that have hosted it are now hosting it again for the third time, and we have really been lax in playing our role over the last 30 years. Germany has hosted it twice. We have seen Austria host it twice. We have seen France host it. We have seen Belarus, near the Russian Federation, host it. So we have seen quite a few countries doing this, and I think there is also this concept that we're not playing our part if we don't come up and do this.The cost of this conference is detailed for you, I think, in the presentation you were given beforehand, but I would be very happy to answer any questions.I think this is a current and timely conference for Canada to be hosting, in view of some of the security issues that we're facing globally.Thank you.International meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)VancouverGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English]Ms. Bergen, go ahead. HedyFryHon.Vancouver CentreCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1125)[English] First of all, thank you both, Ms. Fry and Ms. Ratansi, for being here and for your presentation.I'm a member of both of those associations, and I think that conferences such as these are very important. I think it's also, as you articulated, really important that Canada play a role. Although I think we already do a lot of heavy lifting, we want to continue to play that role.Unfortunately, and through no fault of your own, there is an underlying issue right now that has not been resolved, which means, for me—I don't know how other members of the board feel—that I don't feel I can proceed with approving these funds.There was an issue that arose at our last BOIE meeting four weeks ago. JIC came to us to present their annual report. At that time, I or my colleague tried to raise an underlying issue whereby these very important associations that have been operating successfully here on Parliament Hill for many years had been turned into a political mechanism. We felt that we needed to address that here, at this BOIE, because we are asked to approve these funds. We were not allowed to discuss it. We were told it was out of order and, to my knowledge, those issues still have not been addressed and there's no resolution.Unfortunately—and this is the taint that has now come to be borne on these really good associations—until we can find a resolution so that these associations are not allowed to be politicized and the rules broken.... I don't even know now where we can discuss it. If the ruling is that we can't discuss JIC at BOIE, perhaps there is another place to discuss that, but I have not been informed as to where that is. My thoughts are that I want to see these initiatives go forward, but the underlying issue has to be addressed so that type of thing doesn't happen again.Thank you.International meetingsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English]Mr. Strahl, go ahead.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1130)[English] Thank you.Just to add briefly to my colleague's excellent summary, while I understand that JIC, the Joint Interparliamentary Council, does conduct their meetings in camera, we can take from the minutes of those meetings that the matters raised regarding governance have not yet been resolved. There is nothing to prevent the type of fiasco that happened as a result of the October 30 meeting of the NATO Parliamentary Association, which was directly related, unfortunately, and did cast a pall over the NATO annual assembly that was conducted in Halifax. I believe much of the dispute involved that.Just to be clear, we understand that the majority of the members of the NATO Parliamentary Association wished to have a change in the chair; however, the way it was done broke every rule in the book, and there was no recourse for members of Parliament. It was simply tyranny of the majority. The Joint Interparliamentary Council would need to address that issue to prevent that from happening again, or provide for recourse and appeal mechanisms for members of Parliament that respect the fundamental rules of members of Parliament—no matter what party they're in—having access to a pre-established set of rules and regulations. Meetings cannot simply be hijacked for political purposes.It really was an unfortunate politicization of these non-partisan organizations that have done great work for Canada and for parliamentarians the world over. Until such time as JIC is able to come to a resolution on that issue, on the ability of members to have a satisfactory dispute resolution mechanism that is built into the rules and regulations of all of the associations, we cannot approve any funding for JIC or, indirectly, to these types of programming.Again, this is no reflection on these organizations. This is no reflection on the excellent reports of their chairs. It is simply a matter that has unfortunately been allowed to fester and we need to come to a solution. Perhaps this will provide the impetus for JIC to do that work, to work with the deputy speaker, the Senate and all members of JIC to recognize that this is not something that has gone away just because a meeting happened.This is a live issue for us, and one that we would hope will be resolved quickly so that we can get on with the job of these important associations to conduct their business in a way that respects the rights of members and respects the non-partisan nature of these organizations.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English] Mr. Holland, go ahead.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Chief Government Whip): (1130)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I would say that there's obviously a significant amount of disagreement with the way the events were characterized. It was your ruling in the House as to where these matters should be adjudicated. First, it should be dealt with at the JIC. Then, if it was unable to be dealt with there, it would be brought here.The reality is that there was a decision made by the NATO Parliamentary Association that they wished to change their chair. It was within their right to make that request. They may not like the fact that a majority of the members made a different decision with the chair. I think it's most unfortunate that this body, which is non-partisan, is having this issue brought into it. It's most unfortunate, we would suggest, that we should hold hostage important matters of diplomacy and work with international partners because a chair was lost.We had had conversations. I thought that accommodation was found in Halifax. I thought that we had moved forward in this. I think that there are ways to adjudicate this matter that shouldn't interfere with the business of the Board of Internal Economy, which is not designed for, nor has the purpose of, airing grievances of a partisan nature. I think this is a most unfortunate direction—that we would, on a partisan issue, decide to hold hostage the agenda of this body.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Before I go back, I just want to clarify one thing. In the ruling, I think you'll find, if I recall correctly, that it indicated first that these matters should be dealt with at the associations themselves, if possible. If not there, then at the Joint Interparliamentary Council. If that didn't work, then it could be brought here. We could have the JIC come back and report to us. After I go to Ms. Bergen, it may be possible to hear from Madame Labrecque-Riel about whether there's anything to report from the JIC in relation to this. I will first to go to Ms. Bergen.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilParliamentary staffMarkHollandHon.AjaxCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1135)[English]Thank you all.I have a couple of items. Mr. Holland's comments, I think, are proof as to why this has to be rectified. Because of the way we view what happened and the outcome and the ramifications, not only to individuals whose rights were trampled on by the tyranny of the majority that night, but also to the rights of future members who could be at risk of having that happen, I think it's clear this has to be resolved.If it's not resolved here, then where? This BOIE has been made public so that issues like this could be discussed and rectified in a transparent and open way. This is where it should be discussed.I would suggest that we probably should have discussed it four weeks ago, but the decision was taken and was respected that it was not in order for some reason. Clearly, it needs to be discussed, and it needs to be discussed openly. The reason is that we can then proceed in carrying out the good work that we're doing and have done in a non-partisan way.My other point is that not only does it have to be rectified for the future, but someone has to be held accountable for the wrong that was done to individuals that night. It is clear to everyone. I believe it should be clear to everybody that it won't ever happen again.Here's the truth. This time the majority happened to be the Liberals. Next time the majority could be the Conservatives, who could then exert tyranny over the minority. Whoever is the victim, it's not right, and it needs to be fixed.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Just before I go on, just to be clear, this was raised in the House and therefore I made a ruling. The ruling indicated, as I said, that this should be dealt with first at associations themselves, if possible, and then, of course, at the JIC. If that didn't work, then at this, but we have not had a report from the JIC on this matter. I think it's appropriate that this be the process, and that was the ruling. I would expect members to accept that.Now, having said that, there's no question we know how this body works: it works by consensus. If there are members who do not feel that they can approve expenditures, then those expenditures don't go forward. That's the nature of the body. There's no escaping that, so that's fine. I'm not sure how far you want to get into that at this point.Can we go to Ms. Labrecque-Riel?Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English] Obviously, we always respect the ruling of the Speaker. What would be the deadline for approval of these funds to allow for the planning and procedures to go ahead? We have some time, and it will actually benefit the JIC and these associations to know that they do have a deadline to come up with a satisfactory resolution to the issues that were raised by the Speaker's ruling. Perhaps knowing that we can approve this funding for the next fiscal year at any time before that fiscal year would give appropriate deadlines to both the associations involved and the JIC, so that they could comply with the Speaker's ruling and get this resolved in a way that would allow us to be comfortable to approve this spending. International meetingsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Labrecque-Riel.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColette-Labrecque-RielInterventionMs. Colette Labrecque-Riel: (1140)[English]I'd like to address that question first. In terms of the timeline for both of these conferences, what was not necessarily mentioned was that the funding strategy was the same for the two conferences. The planning year, which is the next fiscal year, is not being funded through the main estimates process. It's being funded through what is anticipated as surplus funding from the associations' and exchanges' budgets. The request for planning year funding in terms of the amounts of the expected costs is not necessarily an issue here. However, we cannot incur any costs toward a conference unless Parliament has given its approval that it wishes to host. The funding matter is a secondary question. The first question is, do we want to host? This would allow my team, for instance, to start engaging expenditures, whether it's main estimates funding or current funding.The other issue is with regard to the international secretariat. If Canada does not come with a decision very soon as to whether or not it intends to host these conferences, both of these associations will be left scrambling to find another host country, and the timeline is quite significantly tight. The financial matters are not necessarily pressing, it is really the effect, internationally, of not having a decision in a timely fashion.The funding request for the temporary funding of the main estimates process really doesn't kick in until the second fiscal year, but again, we cannot incur any expenditures, whether current funding or new funding, without the authorization to, first off, host this conference. In terms of the questions with regard to the specific issue of the NATO General Assembly meeting on October 30 and what, if any, the JIC has moved on this issue, I can confirm that the JIC did have a meeting on November 7. That meeting, however, was held in camera, so I'm not able to reveal any of the discussions of that meeting. However, the conference did occur. As Mr. Holland alluded to, there was an arrangement for that conference in terms of the head and deputy head of the Canadian delegation. The last element would be that the executive committee of the NATO Parliamentary Association held a meeting earlier this week, so it has resumed its business.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)Parliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]We'll have Mr. Holland and then Ms. Chagger.ColetteLabrecque-RielMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1140)[English]Just to be clear, I have first a question and then a comment, if I could, through you, Mr. Speaker. When you say that the timing is pressed, that there's an urgency associated with this, how much time do we have? In other words, if this matter was deferred, when would the decision have to be made before it would seriously endanger both of these conferences?Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestHedyFryHon.Vancouver Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1589HedyFryHon.Hedy-FryVancouver CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FryHedy_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Hedy Fry: (1140)[English]It's the 31st of December of this year, at least for OSCE. Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)MarkHollandHon.AjaxYasminRatansiDon Valley East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25449YasminRatansiYasmin-RatansiDon Valley EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/RatansiYasmin_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Yasmin Ratansi: (1140)[English]January 2019 would be fine for us.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)HedyFryHon.Vancouver CentreMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1140)[English] That gives us, obviously, a very limited window in order to make a decision. Otherwise, this would be scuttled. I would posit to you that there was a process you laid out to determine whether or not the parliamentary association meeting was conducted appropriately and whether or not the election of a new chair was conducted appropriately. Certainly, it's my position that it's the opposite of tyrannical for our association to be able to duly notify that it wants to establish a new chair and to have an election.That having been said, I'm disappointed. I thought that we'd had discussions and come to an arrangement on this. The process that you laid out though is on a separate track. We've heard now that the matter has been heard. We don't know, because it was in camera, what the decision was of the JIC, but if there is a place to take it further my presumption to you, Mr. Speaker, is that you would then be in a position to determine whether or not it would be heard here. If there is some disagreement with that decision and that's the process that you laid out, I would be fully comfortable hearing that matter here. However, it seems to be very peremptory to hold hostage this process when we haven't even concluded the process that you had laid out.The question I am putting to you on the concern that has been raised by my Conservative colleagues is that if they are in disagreement with the decision, which was presumably made in the in camera meeting, they would have an opportunity to raise that at our next board meeting, I would presume.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffYasminRatansiDon Valley EastGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]I mentioned earlier that the JIC could report to the board. There's a tentative meeting, or a meeting planned I gather, for next week, at which we could ask the JIC to report on this matter.I also said that members are entitled to take their position on issues that come before the board as they wish.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1145)[English]My suggestion on that basis, then, is that we ask for a report from JIC on this. If there is a desire to continue to till this earth, then I have no problem with the conversation being here, but it seems odd to me that we would, before the process that you spelled out, which they have been moving through, is played out, jump to the conclusion that somehow that process was incorrect when they haven't fully moved through the process that you had outlined. Then we are in the meantime going to jeopardize two conferences on this matter. That doesn't make any sense to me.What I would suggest to my Conservative colleagues is that we deal with this. There's a process to deal with the other. I have no problem with it coming to get a report from JIC. Whatever that report is from JIC, we can have a conversation about the NATO matter, but I don't think that as that process plays out it should hold up our business here or that this should be held hostage.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Chagger.MarkHollandHon.AjaxBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1145)[English]I have questions in regard to the presentations.Is that suitable?GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]I think you can proceed with that.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1145)[English] First of all, I want to say thank you as well for your presentations.I am in support of Canada hosting these. I think we are playing a role on the international stage. I think to have so many countries then come to see our great country is an opportunity that I am supportive of. The question I have is in regard to looking at expenditures of the past versus now.Thank you for outlining what the expenditures would be now. I know, Ms. Ratansi, you mentioned that there's a new model. I'm wondering if we know the expenses from the last time we hosted it in 1995, looking at inflation and so forth, but removing the expenditures of hosting.Dr. Fry, I would ask the same. Is there a comparison as to what we are basing this off of? Is it based on the last conference hosted in another country, or it is based on what we are doing in this country?I would reiterate that it sounds like there is a way forward so that we can ensure we are having that meaningful dialogue that's necessary. I think it's also important to note that JIC has met and there were some outcomes that came out of it and that NATO has also continued to proceed.I also defer to your ruling, Mr. Speaker. I would agree that there is a way forward, but it should not hold up the work that we need to do here.International meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)VancouverGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColette-Labrecque-RielInterventionMs. Colette Labrecque-Riel: (1145)[English]I will address the question of funding and comparative analysis. As you saw, the last time that Canada hosted either of these two conferences was some time ago. I do not have with me the actual expenditures for the 2004 conference, for example, of the CPA because it was a different type of conference.The model, back then, as mentioned by Ms. Ratansi, called for the host to be responsible for paying accommodations, so the hotel costs and all the meals throughout the entire stay of all delegates. You can imagine how costly that would have been.The new parameters being proposed for this conference remove that responsibility from the host country, whereby each delegate will be responsible for their own accommodations. There are only a few meals that are being imposed upon the host, if you like, as part of the hosting parameters.International meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)VancouverBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1150)[English] As someone who has also planned conferences in the past, perhaps not to this magnitude, there usually is a line-by-line item. There must be some record of expenditures, being able to remove the items that are no longer the responsibility of the host country. I'm just wondering if we have taken a look at them, taken into consideration where we are. I have no doubt you have tried to be efficient with the resources that you are requesting. I know that you do your due diligence. I have full confidence in the numbers. I would just like to know.Then I would take it one step further and ask this: What is the delegate fee for countries that are coming, or is there one?City of HalifaxInternational meetingsVancouverColetteLabrecque-RielYasminRatansiDon Valley East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25449YasminRatansiYasmin-RatansiDon Valley EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/RatansiYasmin_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Yasmin Ratansi: (1150)[English]In the past model there has been no delegate fee. Just to remind you, Russ Hiebert and Joe Preston were both chairs, and in 2007, in Malaysia, we were going to walk away from Commonwealth, but then we persevered and we have worked hard to ensure the governance changes took place. With this governance model, we are not going to charge them any delegate fee; however, at the Bangladesh conference that we had, the spouses were to pay about $1,300 U.S., and the observer status was $3,000 U.S. We will have to come up with a balance. We have to discuss with our international headquarters as well as to how to manage it.City of HalifaxInternational meetingsVancouverBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[Translation] Ms. Labrecque-Riel, would you be able to provide this information? You don't need to do so today, but maybe next week.Can you send us the information and details requested by Ms. Chagger?International meetingsYasminRatansiDon Valley EastColetteLabrecque-RielColetteLabrecque-RielColette-Labrecque-RielInterventionMs. Colette Labrecque-Riel: (1150)[Translation]Yes, of course.International meetingsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[Translation]Thank you.ColetteLabrecque-RielHedyFryHon.Vancouver Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1589HedyFryHon.Hedy-FryVancouver CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FryHedy_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Hedy Fry: (1150)[English]I just wanted to respond, because the OSCE PA works on a very different model from the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. The host country is responsible for accommodation and meals, and of course any entertainment in the summer meeting, such as cultural attractions or whatever. It's a chance in a country like Canada to showcase our diversity as a nation with all our diverse cultural things. It would be very interesting to see Ukrainian dancers at this, and let them know that we can do this in Canada and that we have this kind of diversity. However, given that the last time we hosted this conference was 30 years ago, I think it's pretty difficult to compare. The rules have not changed, and when you look at what goes on, for instance in Berlin last year, some countries undertake to do more than they're required to do. For instance, Berlin turned over the whole Bundestag to the meeting. The cost of the Bundestag and all the people, the clerks and everybody who worked there, was absorbed by the country because they wanted to showcase their beautiful Parliament.You can do what you want, but the baseline is accommodation and meals and entertainment, if possible. It is within those kinds of parameters. As I said, if they wish to, countries can do whatever they choose, but we have tried to stick within the parameters and the baseline of what is possible, understanding we maybe don't want to spend as much money as Germany feels it can spend. We will follow the baseline requirements. We intend to have a lot of say in some of the issues that are going to be discussed at that meeting. We have that opportunity to do so.Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary AssociationCity of HalifaxInternational meetingsOrganization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE)VancouverGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.HedyFryHon.Vancouver CentreMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1150)[English]I'd like to thank both presenters for giving us the deadlines we can work toward to get these matters addressed prior to approving these conferences, which we do want to do. We just simply believe that we need to deal with some governance issues. In spite of some of the previous comments, if I can perhaps provide.... I don't want to get into the whole thing. I've made a lengthy presentation in the House. Our views on this are known. This is not about one chairperson being removed. Conservatives are good at math. We understand the majority is held by the Liberals and that if they wanted to change the chair, there is a proper way to do that within the rules. That those rules were breached is the issue we're talking about. When members feel the rules are breached, what is their recourse? The Speaker has laid out a path forward. I would suggest that the path be accelerated to meet these deadlines so that we can get back to the good work that the Joint Interparliamentary Council and their member associations do.That is where we are. We have a meeting next week to discuss business. In the past we've done a walk-around when we have signed off on expenditures. We would be happy to participate in that as well should more time be needed to resolve the matters we've identified here today.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationInternational meetingsMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English] Thank you.Do we have consensus that we would ask the JIC to report on this next week?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: For now, we'll thank the witnesses, our guests today. [Translation] Thank you for coming to meet with us.[English]We're going to go on to the fourth item on our agenda, which is services to members.[Translation]We're joined by Pierre Parent, the Chief Human Resources Officer, and Stéphan Aubé, the Chief Information Officer.Mr. Parent, when you're ready, you may have the floor.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent (Chief Human Resources Officer, House of Commons): (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English]I'm here today in my capacity as Chief Human Resources Officer of the House of Commons along with Robyn Daigle, who would be leading this new team if this proposal is approved by the Board, to propose the establishment of an HR advisory service and programs to members of Parliament to assist them in fulfilling their roles as employers. As you are aware, members have a unique role as employers of their staff in their constituency and Hill offices. That being said, HR services provided to members by House administration are currently limited, and the existing service delivery model does not support the needs and requirements that are being expressed by members right now.[Translation]Members of Parliament are increasingly seeking advice, guidance and resources to help them address human resources issues.As is the case for all employers, members of Parliament are under increasing pressure to create a positive workplace that reflects the changing social norms.Access to human resources programs and advisory services will help them effectively fulfill their role as employers and contribute to a positive workplace.I'll now leave the floor to Ms. Daigle.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle (Director, Members HR Services, House of Commons): (1155)[English] We are proposing the establishment of new HR services to members, including a team of dedicated senior HR consultants, who will be responsible for building a partner relationship and addressing the HR needs of members. HR advisory services offered would range through recruitment tools and support, assistance in managing sick leave accommodation in mental health situations, enhanced orientation services to support members and their staff, employee relations advice, and navigating conflict and harassment situations. The launch of the team of senior HR consultants would occur at the end of January 2019, if this proposal is accepted. This team would be available to work with the members and implement relevant tools and programs. A review and changes to the existing on-boarding practices is also under way in preparation for dissolution and post-election activities. Over the past year, we've both been directly involved in assisting members with various files, and we can attest that these types of services are long overdue. For members to effectively carry out their role as employers, and ultimately their role as parliamentarians, they must have access to the same type of HR support as other employers, with advice and guidance based on sound HR management principles. By making adequate tools and programs available, we will place members in a better position to navigate difficult situations and address issues as they arise. We are happy to take any questions at this time. EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentPierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]To put this in context before I go to Mr. Holland, it's long struck me that one of the most important things we do as members of Parliament is hiring our staff. They are the first point of contact for our constituents. They provide a lot of services to our constituents because we're here a lot as parliamentarians. All the aspects of human resources are areas in which most MPs, when they start, haven't any training. I had the good fortune of having a sister who worked in HR. I learned a lot from her. I even got some good materials. Did that make me better at doing interviews and hiring? Hopefully, it did. I think over time I've improved in that regard, but I'm sure there are things we could all learn and do better in terms of managing these issues generally. I want to put forward that context that I think there's some value in this, but I'm looking forward to hearing from colleagues about it. Go ahead, Mr. Holland. EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentRobynDaigleMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1200)[English] Thank you very much.I want to first of all, through you, commend the work that's been done. I think it's vitally important. These are changes that are badly needed.Stepping back for a moment, it's going to take me a minute to get to a question, if that's okay. I would outline—as I have in conversations that we've had offline outside of this place—what I think the ideal circumstance is, what I'd like to see us move towards, and perhaps you could articulate how far this gets us to that.My second job, after building fences, was as a summer student for a member of Parliament, so I've had some experience with this over the years. I think for any organization.... For example, when I was executive director of Heart and Stroke, we would have a centralized job bank. People could look at what employment opportunities were available. We would hold on to resumes, so that if somebody didn't work out for one position, we would hold on to it for maybe another. We would ensure that all positions had job descriptions. If we were creating a new position, the first thing we would do is create a job description, understand its reporting relationships and its requirements, and put it out. You would then have a screening process that HR was involved in, to basically look at whether or not the candidate who was applying for the job—and through an interview and initial screening process—had the qualifications for that job.These are things that are not available and that I think would be essential as a resource for members to utilize. We don't have a performance management system. The reality is that at the beginning of the year, there's no goal-setting process. Because you don't have a goal-setting process, then you have no process of evaluation, which means that any of your compensation is not rooted in any sort of evaluation of performance. That is not present.There is HR support, in the sense that if somebody has a problem, they can call your office. However, there isn't anything that someone in a workforce beyond this place would recognize. You would have an HR adviser you establish trust with, that you have communication with. When you have issues, you would then discover that through conversation.One of the things we found when we talked to our own employees—there's Women on the Hill and others who've done this work—is that they don't know where to go. They're very reticent to go up to the chief human resource officer or to the whip, or to the chief of staff of the whip. It seems like a very nuclear option to them. Therefore, they're not reporting. As a result, very minor issues become larger and larger before they become something much more significant.One of the things that concerns me in this—I know I've already relayed it in conversations prior to this meeting—is that if we have eight HR consultants against 2,000 political employees, that makes it pretty hard to do proactive work or trust building. Those eight people might be able to have one half-hour conversation with that entire group of 2,000, but they certainly aren't going to be having the kind of in-depth conversations to build trust, so that on a month-to-month basis, maybe even week-to-week basis, as they're encountering challenges inside of an office, they could have a conversation.I see that as being two-dimensional. In other words, there is both the need on the part of the member to be able to get support in how to manage their staff or get associated training, but there is, separate and apart from that, the need for staff to be able to have somewhere to go to ask how they manage a situation, either with another staff person or in fact with their employer, if it is indeed the member. I would see where we could encounter problems. They need to be able to have environmental assessments or to take a 360° view of what is happening within the office environment. They would then be able to come back to us, as a whip, to say that there needs to be training, or there clearly was a lack of understanding of how to deal with this particular management issue. There's the need to be able to understand the source and root of the problems when we have issues that come forward to us.Obviously, I'm speaking in fast-forward and generalized terms. Really what I'm talking about is professionalizing our HR services so that they would mirror and be reflective of what we see elsewhere in the world. I recognize that this place is special and it is different, but I think that having these kinds of services is essential. I think that in the wake of Bill C-65 and of expectations that people have in terms of what happens here, these things are quite essential.There's where we are. There's what is in front of us today, and I've articulated—at least from my perspective—the ideal paradigm. How far does this get to that? (1205)Maybe specifically speak to this concern I have that eight people against 2,000 are not.... I mean, basically, they would have to be sitting by the phone waiting in a reactionary way for people to call them. There would be no element of proactivity in that. What would it take to be able to proactively have an opportunity to be reaching out, building that trust and establishing those relationships?EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentWorkplace health and safetyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1205)[English]Thank you for your question. The proposal we have before you is one that would allow us to start to learn how to serve members, because we're opening a line of business that doesn't exist right now. I'm absolutely 100% sure that if you look at this thing a year or 18 months or two years from now, it will be slightly different. If you like what you see if we create this team, we'll come back and we'll ask for maybe more resources, but right now the evaluation we've made is in accordance with what we know from three of the recognized political parties that there will be somewhat of a usage.With regard to your question regarding the proactivity part, there is currently a service that is called “Finding Solutions Together”. It was extended to members and their staff in 2014 when we had the policy on preventing and addressing harassment approved by the board. The board made a decision back then to extend that service to members and members' staff. It does exist. It is used by some of your staff. In this proposal, we do have at least one direct resource and two indirect that would be added to this team in order to be proactive.I think that right now it's more about getting that service known. We got the same message, which is that sometimes your staff don't know where to go, so we do acknowledge that there is a need for us to better promote our services. But they do exist, and if the intent is to have this service grow, we'll come back with a proposal in the future.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1205)[English]There are a couple of points on that.One is that if we're approving where we are today, and there's an acknowledgement that we're on a journey, then seeing that road map would be helpful so that we can see where we are in that and where we are potentially going. I don't know how other members on the board feel, but if we're approving something today and it's not the final iteration, seeing the map of where it's going and having an understanding of what the associated costs are.... If we're opening up a new line of business, I understand that some element of that might not be clear, but I think I would like to see a generalized road map so we can understand the road that we're beginning to walk, because this is clearly the first step in a journey, not an end destination. I would want to have a better understanding of that.On the second point that I would make, maybe I'm not making it clear when I'm talking about an HR consultant. Not to keep hearkening back to my time at Heart and Stroke, but one of the things we did is that there was an expectation that every employee have a regular status update with somebody from the HR team. That happened on a proactive basis whether or not there was an issue that was occurring. That would take place—I don't know—every three weeks or something thereabouts. That's the level of proactivity that I'm talking about having available.The reason is that if somebody.... Let's take an example of sexual harassment, verbal harassment or physical harassment. Somebody can feel intimidated. Somebody may not feel empowered to come forward. They may not feel empowered with the existing structure in terms of jumping to somebody who they don't know. The reason why these things exist—I'm using that as an extreme example—is that you establish trust with somebody so that you can understand the process, how you're protected and how you can come forward.The second element is that there is a much more tactical element, particularly in light of the issues we talked about. I think the Speaker was quite right. Many people come here without management experience, where they do need help, where there are issues happening on a day-to-day basis and where they're not sure how to navigate them. My goodness, it happens with people who are very experienced managers where they require the resources of human resources.Effectively what we have right now, as I understand it, is a sort of reactionary force, such that when we have problems, people are going to pick up the phone, rather than a proactive force that exists on an ongoing basis and is establishing trust so that on a regular basis those conversations are taking place, and so that when you're dealing with a small issue of management—how to talk to an employee about an issue that you're having, how to deal with your manager or how to deal with mismatched expectations—there's that opportunity to deal with it.My reflection today is that if everybody used the services as they're used outside of this place, we would collapse in about four seconds, because there is just no way that we could operate that way. What we do instead is that we operate without those supports, and I would posit that it is a dangerous proposition. That's not a healthy proposition. That is a major concern for me.I recognize that we're not going to change that overnight, but it brings me back to the broader question of a road map. I think that if we are going to approve something, then I would like to see where we are on that journey and how we're going to address these issues on a broader basis.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentPierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English] Mr. Parent, I just want to suggest to you that I don't think there is a road map at this point.Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it strikes me that what is being offered here are things that members can have access to. It may be that we want to offer members training in relation to their management in terms of human resources. I think that's very valuable so that they know when they want to call upon this kind of assistance.I don't know if you're talking about going beyond that to a point whereby maybe we're not imposing, but we're.... I don't know if you mean that we would require members to do certain things. That becomes more problematic because members have their individual responsibilities and their rights as members to manage things as they see fit, provided that they don't do something wrong in relation to the kinds of things that you talked about: harassment and so forth.Mr. Parent may wish to answer other than that. I'm going to go to Pierre, and then I'm anxious to go on, because I have Mr. Strahl, Ms. Bergen and Madame Brosseau.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentMarkHollandHon.AjaxPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1210)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I think one thing that I'd like to mention is that this service that we're creating would be fairly different from the service that we currently have for the House administration.For the House administration, we serve a corporate role in the sense that, yes, we are advising managers, but we're also advising employees to a certain extent. If we offered this service to members, members remain the employers for their own employees, so it would be more of an advisory/consulting service with regard to this aspect because it would be difficult, unless we're invited by the member, the employer, to do an intervention. We've done some interventions in some members' offices, and we've done it with the invitation of the member or with the whip's intervention.This is, I think, the most fundamental difference. We want to respect the fact that each member is his or her own employer. We don't want to insert ourselves in a member's business and in managing a member's own employees unless that member decides to invite us.It will be a journey of discovery. It is difficult for me to develop a definite road map. For instance, with regard to recruitment, we went with the assumption that members don't require any recruitment assistance. We started to assist members who had made these requests to us, and then we were surprised with the amount of requests that we were receiving.Basically, this is a journey of discovery for us. Yes, we plan to adjust to each member and to adjust to the changing nature of their business. It is difficult for us right now because we only have a small sample of HR cases. We've dealt with some, but not necessarily with the magnitude of 338 members. There were several cases that we weren't involved in.I don't know, Robyn, if you have anything to add.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRobynDaigleRobynDaigleRobyn-DaigleInterventionMs. Robyn Daigle: (1210)[English]I might just add that you've mentioned a couple of things in terms of the road map.I think it's important that we make sure that we start with the building blocks. I think some of the things that you've mentioned in terms of tools, like general job descriptions and performance management tools, are things that don't currently exist. I think that they will certainly help the employers, the members, to better establish requirements in the workplace.The other thing is that our proposal.... The senior HR consultants are there for the member, but they can certainly facilitate situations that are ongoing with employees. The other thing is that some of the roles that we're looking at are programs that already exist that are interfacing with member staff, things like the respectful workplace program, the harassment prevention program and a nurse counsellor who can meet with employees, as well, to deal with different situations.We recognize that there may be, longer term, an evolution of the service delivery model. We, in fact, expect it, but as Pierre mentioned, the piece that's missing for us is the data behind it.The other thing is that we don't know how much uptake will come. We expect that we might have some members who frequently use us and others who may decide not to. We can't impose our services on them. I think that part of it will be through reputation and building those relationships.We also recognize that every time there's a shift in government and representation, we have to establish new relationships. Some of the things that you've mentioned are some of the building blocks that we need to put in place. I think that once some of those things are in place, they will help us to evolve the service delivery model.The other thing is that with Bill C-65, there will be some obligations that will be placed on members' offices in terms of harassment prevention and also in terms of health and safety. We don't know what that will look like yet, but that will also be another opportunity for us to shift and take a look again at whether we need to look at something different.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentWorkplace health and safetyPierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English] Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.RobynDaigleMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1215)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I have several concerns here. I would argue that this is well beyond first steps. We're being presented with a solution to an issue on which our members might have been reaching out to CHRO, I don't know. We have not solicited feedback from our members on what services they feel the CHRO could be providing to them that they are not currently. This, to me, seems like a bit of the cart-before-the-horse proposal. I'll say that at the outset. Mr. Parent said that desires are being expressed by members. That might be true. That does not necessarily mean that those desires should be met by CHRO or that we should approve an entirely new apparatus to deal with that.The feeling I get when I hear this presentation and when I read the details is that this is being treated like a government department, the department of the House of Commons, where members of Parliament are in an org chart, and there is an HR management system that is imposed to....it says to provide services, but when you get into recruitment support and this organization is going to be sourcing, screening and helping with interviews—and perhaps a bank of resumés will be kept on file—who makes the determination as to which resumés are forwarded to a member, for instance?We're talking about performance management tools or that there is no goal-setting process. Members of Parliament are not under a global “we're all employees of the House of Commons”. We have a unique role. We have a unique perspective on human resources, and I think every member.... In my office, we certainly have a goal-setting process. In my office, we certainly have a performance review operation. These things tend to creep when they are offered originally as an option, and then it becomes part of the letter of offer. Was the interview conducted with the CHRO present? Did the resumé come through the CHRO? These are things that I see.The members in my caucus will view this very differently, perhaps, than members in other caucuses. I have deep concerns, quite frankly, about this. It appears to be something that will be imposed on members. Usually when things come to this board, it's a result of members coming to us and saying, “I see a need here. We have a problem here where our needs are not being met.” I would suggest that what should be done here is to inform members of their obligations, and there are new obligations coming. There should perhaps be briefing sessions, templates offered to members to say, “Here is how your operation must change as a result of Bill C-65. Here are your obligations to ensure a safe workplace under this new legislation.” I really do feel this is something that I have not heard. I will be honest: I have not had a single member come to me in the year and a half that I've been the whip, and we deal with situations all the time. No one has said, “I don't feel that the CHRO is serving me well. I need more services from that office and I want to subcontract”—if I can put it that way—“my obligations and my rights as an employer to another organization.” I would like to see, certainly, a much more detailed analysis of how.... We're talking about $2.83 million, $2.49 million, but then add on the employee benefits. If this is a building block, it's a significant one, and from those comments this will only continue to grow. Before this gets approved, I would like to see an analysis of.... Members should be consulted if this is what they're after. While certain members may have been expressing their desires to CHRO directly by asking for services, other members have not been asked what they would like to see. Maybe they just do it all internally. Maybe they do their own coaching or their own training.(1220)Before we approve this, I think members should be consulted. Members should be asked about what they think CHRO should approve. Don't simply rely on those who contacted CHRO. Perhaps there could be an actual request: What services would help you in your unique role as a member of Parliament? Again, I know it was said that it will be respected, but once this starts to happen, I think members will slowly lose their autonomy as this organization takes on more of those roles that have traditionally fallen to the member of Parliament. We have to be very careful to maintain that this is an advisory service and that it's what members are actually looking for. Peresonally, I don't think this proposal provides either one of those solutions.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentWorkplace health and safetyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English]Thank you.I think the intent, by the way, really is that it be an advisory service, but I think your point about it is very important. It should not be something that's imposed. We took steps in some cases where we saw big concerns or incidents that we felt we had to deal with, of course, but about things like harassment, as I said earlier. That's a different kind of thing. I think you're absolutely right that we shouldn't be imposing a manner of managing people's offices. The question, I think, should be about what services can be on offer.I'd like to let Mr. Parent answer.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1220)[English]I agree; I think this service will be optional for members. That's the intent. As I said earlier, this would not be typical corporate HR. This would be more of an advisory to members who need it. The tools we develop that would be offered to individual members would be optional. They could be modified by members if members wanted to. They could be used or not used by members. That's the orientation we would like to take.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English]Ms. Bergen is next.PierreParentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1220)[English]Thank you very much. Thank you for your presentation. Building on what Mr. Strahl talked about, when I saw the heading “New Human Resources Services for Members as Employers”, my initial thought was to wonder if our whips were consulted on what our members are expressing. Are there challenges when it comes to how they manage their employees? It sounds like that hasn't been done. That might be a good place to start. It looks like $2.5 million a year will be spent on helping our members be better employers. I think we should go back and find out what their unique challenges are and what services they're looking for.Mr. Holland's description was very, very different from my own personal experience and from where I think I have challenges. I'm from a rural riding. My biggest challenge is with my employees who aren't here in Ottawa. Having somebody here in Ottawa that they're going to phone...? They can barely get IT dealt with. There are other challenges there may not be an easy fix for. That's one example.Another example is the whole idea around setting goals. There may be some appetite for members of Parliament to have a template developed. For example, how do you sit down and do goal-setting with your employees? That's a template. It's like when we have to give letters to our employees; we go to legal services and they say, “Here's the template.”There's another great parallel example in the ten percenter services. We can use House of Commons services to develop our ten percenters or we can use entirely our own imagination and what we know is good for our own riding. That's where I could see this possibly going, but it would need to start with us knowing that this now is a new thing. Probably before that's even established, let our members know what the new requirements will be under the new legislation. From that, they can have discussions with our whips as to what they believe they will need. Out of that, this could then be developed, whereby needs are actually being addressed. It may end up being something like our resource services—for us it's the CRG, for example—where it doesn't come out of House administration. It's just a budget amount that's given to each of the parties. Those parties work with their members in order to address that. I'm not suggesting that would be the solution, but what I'm seeing is that if this is meant to be services for members as employers, we have definitely put the cart before the horse. I'm afraid that the goals will not be met at all, which I don't believe would be satisfactory to anybody. I think we need to go back to the drawing board, find out what the challenges are that our members are having in terms of their employees, and then be able to address them through our whips.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English] Madame Brosseau, go ahead.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1225)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I'd like to thank Monsieur Parent and Madame Daigle for the presentation.At first blush when looking at this, it made me think back to when I came into office in 2011. It was a whirlwind getting to the Hill, walking up, being in the House of Commons for the first time and then all the training. As soon as you're elected, you want to learn what your job in Ottawa is and get set up as fast as possible back in your constituency. I can't remember anything that happened orientation-wise, because I was just trying to get as much done as possible.It's important to make sure that we evaluate the needs of members and make sure that if we do go ahead with new HR services and programs, they address the needs of members of Parliament. When I found out that there was this recruitment system being proposed and that recruitment services have been offered to certain MPs, I just wondered if that kind of blurs the line between House administration and MPs' duties and responsibilities.I was wondering if there are any risks that could arise in a situation in which the House administration does recruitment, interviews and background checks. If something were missed, could that cause a problem? What kind of recourse would there be for MPs who use this recruitment system? For us, it's a little bit different. We have a collective agreement; we're unionized.This is a good idea, but I think what we really need to do is talk to MPs and maybe go back to whips to see what other kinds of services would be needed.I'm happy that we're talking about health and safety, but I think we also need to make sure that we have enough information about mental health for our offices and make sure that MPs know what kind of supports are available for staff.This is really interesting. I'm for this, but I'm just worried. I think we need a little bit more information. As was mentioned, once the recruitment services were offered to one member, it snowballed, and other MPs found out about it. I'd never heard of this being offered until we had a briefing about it. Given the fact that we're only going to have eight senior consultants and then 10 program and services representatives in the HR department, I'm just wondering if that's going to be enough, because it seems they are going to have a lot of work to do.Those are my concerns around this.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English]Could I ask you to go back to the previous slide for just a second? I think it might be helpful. In the fourth bullet, there are a number of things listed. The first one, of course, relates to the recruitment issues, but the others are about managing sick leave and mental health situations, accommodating employees with special needs, health and safety, and navigating conflict and harassment complaints. I wonder to what degree the concerns that members have are with the first of those as opposed to the others. Is it with all of them? Let me just be very clear that, from my perspective, the independence of members is extremely important. Their right to manage their offices is something I consider to be vitally important, and I appreciate what the members have said about this.I have Mr. Holland and then Mr. Strahl.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1230)[English] Mr. Speaker, I have a suggestion. It occurs to me, in listening to the conversation, that there's work to do. We need to go back and have some conversations about the different ways, the different needs that we have or don't have, as the case may be, and how those can be made manifest. I don't think, as an example, that any of this that I'm suggesting should be mandatory. I'm suggesting that I would certainly go to members of our caucus and make a strong suggestion that it would be wise to use some of these things. If our members made a suggestion that they didn't want to, that would absolutely be their choice.If I take screening as an example, I also don't have a problem. Ms. Bergen said that perhaps it should reside on the political side of the House, so that we're doing our own screening or we're given the ability to do the screening there. I wouldn't have a problem with that, as an example. I do think having that service is incredibly essential. There are a lot of members who come to me regularly, saying they don't know how to evaluate the skills. They want to hire somebody, and they need them to be able to do certain things, but they don't know how to evaluate that. If you're elected and you are a professional—let's say you were a doctor—maybe you've never managed somebody. You certainly may not have managed someone in this context. Having somebody who can help you with that screening, I think, is incredibly important. A performance management system usually is rooted in evidence and in practice. Yes, we can invent our own performance management systems. Of course, we're welcome to do that. I would encourage our members to use something that has been tried and tested and has some kind of universality to it. The expectation would be very much on our side of the fence. We wouldn't share the performance evaluation with the CHRO. It would be for the utilization of the members.Anyway, all of this is to say that I think, personally, that these changes are essential. For us to operate as a modern workforce, these are things that we need, and need urgently, I would say. I can see that there are a lot of conversations that need to take place. Rather than having a big debate here, I would suggest that maybe we just table this and get the opportunity to have some conversations, first among ourselves—so that we can understand what our needs are, where each of us is coming from on this, and how it could be bound to manage some of the concerns that have been expressed—and then we can have a conversation with some folks about the path forward from there.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[English]Good.Mr. Strahl, go ahead.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1230)[English]Yes, I would agree. I would also ask for some direction from CHRO, to provide us with the questions that they perhaps asked themselves when they were creating this program, to ask what services members are looking for. I'm sure there are metrics about what you are asked for. As people come to you, here's what they're asking for. There are a number of members who, I would submit, have never contacted CHRO but have identified gaps, perhaps, that they would like to see assistance with.I would agree with Mr. Holland that we should come back to this, that we should be given an opportunity to take it to our members. What will provoke some concern is that this is not simply a request in the supplementary estimates like, “The CHRO is overwhelmed with requests, and we need more money to hire more people.” This is “We are setting up something new, and here's what it can deliver.” That, I think, is where members will want to have some input into what is being proposed. If this is a matter of just needing more money for more people to carry out the tasks we already ask of the CHRO, perhaps people would be more comfortable with it. It seems to me that it is a new service delivery model—it says that right on it. It requires new management and administrative staff. This is a new function. We need buy-in from members, and members should be the ones crafting it.I think we can do that. Maybe we'll end up with the exact same program, but I don't think we should start with that assumption. I would agree with Mr. Holland that we should.... I don't know if we want to set a deadline for the new fiscal year or if this is something we would be looking for. Certainly, we would be uncomfortable proceeding with the plan that's been laid out for us at this time.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English]I think it's been a very helpful conversation, regardless.Mr. Parent, do you have anything to tell us about where this sprung from?MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1235)[English] We've been involved in several cases, whether assisting members in having difficult conversations with regard to termination, or health and safety. Probably the most challenging case with regard to health and safety was managing a member's office. We assisted a member in managing a very difficult medical case. We interfaced with nurses, doctors and health professionals. This is a good example of where there was a need and we had the resources internally. We offered these resources to this member, who was in dire need of this service.It's the same issue with regard to recruiting. A member was looking for resumés for a downtown Toronto office, so we went on LinkedIn and obtained some resumés. We didn't make a decision on behalf of the member. We just assisted the member in dealing with a very pressing HR issue.These are examples of where this came from. These members talked to their colleagues and said that if they were going through something difficult, they might want to talk to me or Robyn. EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English]Are you overwhelmed at this point?EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentPierreParentPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1235)[English]Absolutely.EmployersHuman resourcesMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English]It's useful to know that, but I think it's also useful for members of the board to discuss this with their members. On the one hand, they can make them aware that these are services that not all members may know are available, but on the other hand, if they're already overwhelmed, that's a challenge. The main thing is to have that conversation. I think that's vital.Thank you very much.[Translation] We'll now discuss the management of computers, among other things, in the constituency offices.Stéphan Aubé, the Chief Information Officer, will speak to us.Welcome, Mr. Aubé.PierreParentStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1235)[English]Mr. Speaker, members of the board, this presentation today is a follow-up to the presentation we did in the spring. In the spring, we proposed to the Board to launch a pilot with 60 to 70 members' offices to strengthen the IT security posture in the constituency offices and also to ensure parity between what's offered as a service between the Hill and the constituency offices. We also wanted to standardize the service delivery in the constituency offices and provide more simplicity in purchasing equipment for the members and their constituency offices.We're back here today after the pilot, during which more than 70% of the offices were set up. We've received great feedback. The outcome of the pilot is that we're seeking support from the board to offer a managed set of computers for the constituency offices. We're proposing that every constituency office have centrally funded computers.(1240)[Translation]It can be up to a maximum of five computers.[English]We're also proposing that constituency offices could buy an additional five computers through their MOBs, if required by the members. We're also proposing that any computers purchased for the constituency offices leverage a supply chain that will be set up from the House for security reasons.In addition to that, based on the feedback we received during the pilot, members are also requesting that we provide compatible printing solutions in the constituency offices.We're also proposing that the existing model of funding for the network connectivity between the constituency offices and the Hill be reviewed to be centrally funded, versus the MOB.This is the proposal we're making here, sir. As I outlined, it's very important for us that we move forward, as we're making this recommendation for security reasons. Security in our constituency offices is the highest vector of attack when it comes to security at the Hill. We want to leverage this initiative, and also improve the services to members, by putting forward this proposal.I am open to questions, sir.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1240)[English] Thank you very much.Mr. Strahl, go ahead.StéphanAubéMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1240)[English]Thank you.As the person who chose the Conservative members who would receive this pilot, I'm happy to report that I made the list, and that we do have the computers. They were installed fairly recently, so I think the initial report has been good. To have that integrated system where you can access shared drives and all the rest of it has been very useful.My question.... I wasn't sure if this was a feature of the pilot or if it would be a feature going forward. It says to provide each member with up to five managed computing devices. I have two full-time employees in my office, and me. I'm there a limited amount of time, but when I am, I do use a computer. We were told that this would be the limit. Three computers would be provided, because that's the number of employees I had on file. Now, we also have volunteers, a server and those sorts of things.That's my first question. How will you determine the “up to five”? Is that a determination made by the member or by administration?Second, I was pleased to hear that you wanted to make sure the printers work with these things; that's critical. However, the bizhub printers, the all-in-one units that we all have here and that many of us have in our constituency offices, are priced—or were at the time, anyway—between $5,000 and $10,000 per unit, I think.Are you suggesting, then, that this would become part of the standard offer that would go to the House administration budget, or are you just saying that you will make sure the printers we've purchased through our MOB are working with the new computers before the installers pack up and go?Those are my two questions.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1240)[English]Thank you, sir.In the past, there used to be a limit on the number of employees. This would limit the number of computers they could purchase. This proposal will be determined by the member, so the member will actually be able to receive up to five computers from the central fund.The average throughout the pilot has been around 4.2. Depending on different members, we've seen on average around 4.2 computers per area. That's for the first question.For the printing issues, we're not proposing a particular solution. We're proposing to work with your office to understand the needs and then to propose a solution that could come forward. If someone wants the photocopier-type printing that we have here on the Hill, from a party perspective, we could offer that. If they also want a lower-end solution from our vendors, leveraging our supply chain, we'll be able to provide that and customize that by working with your office specifically.Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1240)[English]When you say you offer that, does that mean that will come out of the central budget?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1240)[English]Yes.Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1240)[English] I guess what will come out of the central budget is the actual acquisition of the asset—Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1245)[English]Right.DanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1245)[English]—and not the actual usage of it. You'll see that because of our own supply chain and the volume we buy for the Hill, our costs are significantly less than the $5,000 or $10,000 for those machines.Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1245)[English]Is that not currently a requirement when you're purchasing that kind of IT equipment? Would that be something we would require members to do then, to use that? We used to have the constituency improvement fund, which required you to purchase through a certain track.I guess what I'm asking.... Our members will be interested to know out of which envelope this will come. If they choose to go to a local supplier, does that then come out of their MOBs? If it's not purchased through you, does it then come out of their MOBs, and if they purchased it themselves, is that allowed and will you still service it?Constituency officesInformation technologyDanielPaquetteStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1245)[English]For computers, we're proposing that all computers be purchased through the House. It would take away the opportunity for buying through local suppliers. For security reasons, we want to ensure that we have the same image on these computers as the ones on the Hill.For printing solutions, we're also proposing that we leverage the vehicles we have at the House. We will offer a variety, but they will be specific brands that we have certified and integrated into the computing solutions.Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1245)[English]Thank you.StéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1245)[English]Mr. Holland, go ahead.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1245)[English]On that point, just so I understand it, in the existing inventory of computers, some are networked in and some aren't. For example, in my constituency, often the person who's doing the graphic design and whatnot isn't integrated in, so they'll use a laptop that isn't integrated into the network at all.Does that mean that everything that was purchased would have to be linked into the House of Commons network and be interfacing with it? Would you be unable to have anything that's outside of that network? What would you do with the existing inventory of computers, some of which are networked into the House of Commons and some of which aren't?Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1245)[English] Let me answer your second question first, because that will help answer your first question, sir. Anything that would be required to be connected to the infrastructure we would want to be a House machine, because of the standards. Recognizing that some constituency offices have computers that have been bought in the last few years, we're not planning to replace them until they reach the end of their life cycle, so we would be working with each of the offices to determine the appropriate scenario. When moving forward, when we do the life cycle of this equipment, we would then move to leveraging the ones that we have.Now, recognizing that, there will always be the option for the computers that are bought, leveraging our standing offers, to have them or not have them on the network if there are specialized tools that would require that, sir. Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1245)[English]Again, I am not using it and I am trying to project this across all of our caucus, so I am just taking my issue to understand it more broadly, because if I have the issue, no doubt others will. It could be quite restrictive to get a program loaded onto the computer, because we don't have control over our own computers. We have to effectively get permission from your department in order to be able to download a program. If somebody wants to be able to put a program on in the future—if they're in graphic design or whatnot, or maybe they were using a platform that hasn't been approved—everything will have to effectively reside with and be controlled by you. Nobody will be able to evade that. If that's the case, how will we deal with that? When I was first an MP—and this is going back a long way—I wasn't allowed to put spell-check on my BlackBerry, because it wasn't an approved application. How are we going to avoid the circumstance of members wanting to be able to use software or innovations, but potentially facing a long lag time before their installation on their own computers is approved?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1245)[English]Mr. Speaker, we're not planning to do that. If someone came with a device that was required, it would be managed on an exception-by-exception basis. We will allow it. For example, we do allow, in certain cases, Macintosh devices or Apple devices for particular graphic solutions that cannot be performed in the environment that we have, and we do accept these solutions; we just don't attach them to our network. This will be allowed moving forward. For the software aspect, for example, if you're looking for a piece of software that we do not want on our infrastructure, what we are proposing as a first step is to work with you to see if you can run that on our PCs—maybe not on our network, but we can have it on a stand-alone in your office, because we can still manage it through the Internet. Then if that doesn't work, we'll find another exception and work with you to make that happen. This is why we're proposing a series of machines that are funded centrally and a series of machines that are funded through the MOB, the members' office budget, sir. We're just trying to standardize the machines so that we don't end up with a large variety of assets that we can't really recycle after an election.Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1250)[English]The only asterisk I would place beside my support for this is that caveat. I just don't want to see us finding that installing software or something that is required for a member's business involves a huge process for installation or that somebody is being told, “Sorry, we're not allowing that because we have decided we don't approve that software.” That's what I am saying. Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1250)[English]Mr. Speaker, I can attest that all we're asking is that the machine that would be running that software is not attached to the network, but you can use it—Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1250)[English]Okay, fair enough. StéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1250)[English]We give you an image that you can work with. All we want to do is standardize the machines there, sir. Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1250)[English]Fair enough. Thank you. StéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1250)[English]I think there are quite a few apps you will allow people to install, provided that there is not a problem, right?Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkHollandHon.AjaxStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1250)[English]Yes. Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1250)[English]Okay, good.Go ahead, Madam Chagger. StéphanAubéBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1250)[English] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I hope Stéphan would know that I appreciate the effort. It's something that I think we've been long overdue in doing. We need to be able to have our computers communicating between Parliament Hill and our constituencies, because work in both areas is essential to the work we do. I know we've had some interactions in regard to what we anticipated the pilot to be and the fact that it's taken longer than anticipated. I do want to manage expectations as to when we thought we'd get computers versus when we got them, because I know I received the computers because I was chosen to be part of the pilot, but they are just being networked this week. When we're taking on something a lot larger than a pilot, I just want to to be mindful of the time it would take.The whole purpose of the pilot project was to hear examples such as what my colleague is mentioning. I'm assuming that you have some examples where you've had to look at those exemptions to ensure that the programs and services that our colleagues are requesting are able to be be part of it.I also want to confirm that if a device is not on the network, it is able to communicate with the printing machine, and so forth, that might be coming out of this budget.The costs are just under $1 million for 2019-20, and then they go up to $1.5 million, and I'm wondering if that's because the pilot project has taken some of them. Are you then looking at numbers to service all of them?I also wonder about how—and I know I've asked you this before—when it comes to an election year, there are always some changes. Currently what happens is devices belong to the member's office, and if there is a changeover, you receive those devices. To ensure security and so forth, how are we going to ensure that we are going to keep that? Are those computers going to stay with the office, or do new ones get set when a new member's there?I will make the point that if the number for 2019-20 has the same resources, or the same numbers of devices and so forth, available as the ones after 2021 moving forward, and it's cheaper to be buying new devices every year, we might want to look at our options.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1250)[English]There were a few questions.Let's just start with the election, Madam Chagger. At an election, the process from the House is to recoup all security information that is on the devices and cleanly restart the devices. We do this personally, either on site or from here. We get back the hard discs and we treat them in a way based on our protocols to ensure that there's no security risk to these machines.In terms of whether any devices that would not be attached to the network would be able to leverage the different devices that are in the constituency offices, yes, they will be. We're going to work with each of the individual offices, as we are scheduled to be doing in your office on December 3. We're going to be working with the staff, establishing what the requirements are and moving forward with establishing a solution that will meet your requirements.You're right that it did take a little bit longer, and that's why you've seen that through the process. There are multiple reasons. Sometimes it's availability of the merchandise; sometimes it's also the ability of our vendors to provide us with the services. Also, it's a new model, because now we're entering into servicing the constituency offices remotely with third parties. This model that we're proposing is a shared partnership with industry; we're going to be leveraging an across-Canada partner who's going to be working in the constituency offices. It's also been a learning lesson for them. It's been a learning lesson for us. We're working on it. We're taking that back.It's also why, when you look at an election, we're not planning a big bang approach. We would be planning this over a year and a half. There would be a transition based on what exists right now. We'd be going from office to office with a large group of people.As you saw in the budget, we're seeking additional funding during an election period. This funding goes down after an election. The standard funding we're seeking is for the resources to provide the ongoing support, but then in an election we're seeking additional funding that would be sourced through the existing budgets of the House in order to meet the higher capacity.Constituency officesInformation technologyBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1255)[English]As you see, yes, the funding is ramping up, and as you've already mentioned, it was a challenge to get out, even in the pilot project.We realize that we can't do the big bang right after the election. In the year of the election, we're ramping up some portion, and then the following year we'll finish the rollout of all of the computers that we have.That also means that we're respecting some of the life cycling of machines that have been recently purchased. We're not asking for all of the funding to roll this out the first year. We'll do as much as we can. We have almost a 60-40 split of what we can do in the first year, and then we can get up to full capacity during the second.That's why they're ramping up the funding.Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1255)[English] Thank you.The question that I would just follow up with is on the third party vendors and how they are chosen. Part of being a member of Parliament is being able to use services within my riding and supporting our small businesses. I would like to know how you are choosing them, and then how you are ensuring their security.When my printer in my riding gets used, it gets used a lot. Then when it's broken, it's broken. I need someone to come in readily to fix it, because there's usually not a backup device.Thank you.Constituency officesInformation technologyDanielPaquetteStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1255)[English]Thank you, Madam Chagger.We do have standing offers or competitive vehicles that we create. We sought out someone who had the ability to provide the service across Canada. We wanted to work with one vendor; it's easier from a management perspective. If this does not meet the requirements of individual offices, Madam Chagger, we're certainly going to take feedback and see how we can adapt the vehicle. The point is that if we have to manage it through regions, we've done that in the past with the networking service providers. We've worked with individual providers in areas—for example, in the Maritimes, Ontario, Quebec and out west. We have the ability to do that.Right now we're working with one vendor because it was the process to start. Certainly with feedback, if we find that we're not meeting the requirements from the service perspective and being able to react quickly to you, we will do that.Having said that, that one vendor has the ability to create relationships with multiple vendors in all the areas. They are leveraging other suppliers in the areas and working with them in these areas. That's the approach we were looking for. However, we will certainly take that feedback and measure that. If it becomes an issue, we'll certainly look at addressing any partnerships with the finance people.Constituency officesInformation technologyBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1255)[English]We're running up against the time, and I know House leaders tend to get very busy shortly.Go ahead, Madame Brosseau.StéphanAubéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1255)[English]It really wasn't an urgent question. I was just going to ask about the life cycle of computers. We don't really have to go there. I had some questions more around what happens when we do replace computers. Do they get cleaned up, wiped and resold? I'm thinking how this plays out environmentally. I'm all for adopting this plan. I think it's great that we can connect the Hill and our constituencies, but there's a problem in the rural ridings. I represent a rural riding, and I'm sure a lot of colleagues have the same problem: Internet is a big issue. When they installed the new computers as part of the pilot project, it was delayed because they had to fix something with the Internet, and bring in a box and extra specialists.I would like some more information around the environment and how the government is working to make sure that we respect that. That's my big question.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1255)[English]Okay. Do you have a quick answer on that?Ruth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1255)[English]The life cycle is four to five years. From a security perspective, we take the hard discs and we destroy them. We bring them back here and wipe them so that there is no damage. Then they get recycled through a recycling process.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1255)[English]I have companies in my riding that do recycling of computers.Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1300)[English]Yes. Well, we do have a recycling process.Constituency officesInformation technologyRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1300)[English] I'm very interested in how those things are recycled.Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1300)[English]We'll have to continue this conversation.I suspect there might be a willingness to deal with this at the beginning of the next meeting. Can we approve this?Constituency officesInformation technologyRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1300)[English]We can ask questions later. I think I'm okay with approving it.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1300)[English]My suggestion was going to be that we approve this. If there are further questions, maybe we can have Mr. Aubé come back at another time for just general discussion. I thought our time was running out and that we could approve this.Constituency officesInformation technologyBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1300)[English]Members can let me know when they want to have him come back. How does that sound? We'll approve this, then. Thank you very much. We'll defer the rest of the agenda to the next meeting.Go ahead, Ms. Bergen.Constituency officesInformation technologyCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1300)[English]That was going to be the beginning of my first comment. I'm glad that we got that done.Because we're not going to have time to go through the other items, I would like the committee to consider two points.Next week when we come back, I think on item 5, financial matters, I know we are looking for more details on those proposals. We would like a more detailed report. I think subsequent to the discussion around the services for MPs in terms of employees, that probably would need to be revised anyway.Second, we were wondering if maybe we should try to meet a little earlier so that we can get through everything. We have a number of issues in camera that will need to be addressed before we rise for Christmas.Should we possibly meet a half an hour earlier to give us enough time?GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1300)[English] We can look at that, and we can ask the deputy clerk to work with your offices to see if that can be coordinated. Thank you very much.The meeting is adjourned. CandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0101st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, November 1, 2018Le jeudi 1er novembre 2018Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTNovember 1, 2018CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 010 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 010 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 010 (Version officielle)010011120182018/11/01 11:25:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1125)[English] This meeting of the Board of Internal Economy is called to order. Good morning, colleagues.The first matter is the minutes for the previous meeting. Is anything of concern about the minutes? I'm seeing nothing.Is there any business arising from the previous meeting? I'm seeing none.We'll go on to number three, which is the 2017-2018 audited financial statements.The presenters we have this morning are Dan Paquette, chief financial officer; José Fernandez, deputy chief financial officer; Charly Thivierge-Lortie, audit senior manager, KPMG; and Andrew Newman, audit partner, KPMG.[Translation]Hello, Mr. Paquette. Please go ahead.Financial statementsDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1125)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to be here today to present the audited financial statements of the House of Commons for the fiscal year that ended on March 31, 2018.[English]I've provided an overview of the various financial reports we bring to the board to help members of the board in their oversight role for the House of Commons' financial activities. During this cycle, we cover the various financial results from prior years, the in-year activities, and some of the future planning activities for which we need resources.As part of this financial cycle, you will recall that last June, I provided you with the year-end financial report for the fiscal year ending 2017-18. The purpose of that report was to present the comparatives between the spending authorities of 2017-18 and those of 2016-17.Today I'm here to present to you the 2017-18 audited financial statements. They represent one of the many formal records of the House of Commons' financial activities and financial position, as of March 31, 2018. They are prepared by the House administration and present only one of the financial disclosures that we do for the public with regard to our House resources.With respect to the financial resources, some of the disclosures we do are the Report to Canadians, which we'll be discussing later at this meeting; the Public Accounts of Canada; our quarterly financial reports; the members' expenditure reports; and the House officer expenditure reports.The audited financial statements are prepared using the accrual basis of accounting rather than the expenditure basis of accounting. That means they reflect the activities of transactions and events in the period in which they occur, rather than in the period in which we've used the appropriations. The main difference to note is that the net cost of operations in these financial statements includes the services provided without charge, such as the operating costs for the various buildings we occupy.We also have a statement of financial position, which includes our inventory, the capital asset less our amortization, the liabilities for employee benefits and sick leave, and the liabilities for vacation pay and compensatory leave.These House of Commons financial statements were prepared in accordance with Canadian public sector accounting standards.[Translation]As you will hear in the following presentation, every year, these financial statements are audited by an independent external auditor. This year, it was KPMG, and some members of that firm are here today.[English]This year, and for as long as we've had audited financial statements, we have received an unqualified opinion. To me, this is a testament to the efforts made by my team to ensure that systems and practices are in place to ensure that reliable financial information is available for decision-making in all of our financial reports. (1130)[Translation]I would like to take a few minutes to present some highlights of the financial statements.The financial statements provide an overview of the assets and liabilities of the House of Commons. As of March 31, 2018, the $79 million in assets consisted primarily of funds provided to the House of Commons to support its activities. Receivables are mostly amounts to be collected from federal departments and agencies and other parliamentary institutions. Capital assets are assets with a purchase price over $10,000.[English]On the other hand, as of March 31, 2018, the House of Commons' liabilities were in the amount of $80 million. They are mainly composed of amounts payable to suppliers and employee benefits.Our cost of operations for 2017-18 has increased by approximately $60 million. Our net cost of operations fluctuates from year to year depending on various factors, such as the various initiatives presented in the House administration's strategic plan.I'll mention a few that we had reported previously. They include the investments we've made into the renewal of our HR financial systems, our food service modernization, the digital strategy for modernizing the delivery of parliamentary information and our LTVP.[Translation]There are significant variances between the net cost of operations in fiscal years 2016-17 and 2017-18 for salaries and benefits, transportation, communications, publication, printing, repairs and maintenance. There was also variance in our revenues. [English] For the category of salaries and benefits, we have seen an increase of $61 million, which can mostly be explained by the one-time actuarial adjustments, as directed in the actuarial report on the pension plan for members of Parliament. There were also the economic increases for the House administration employees and the annual increases for members' sessional allowances and additional salaries. There were also some increases in our capacity to deliver on the various initiatives that had been presented in the strategic plan for 2016 to 2019.For the category of transportation and telecommunications, we have seen a decrease of $2 million as a result of the one-time investment in 2016-17 for the Internet-based connectivity to deliver the constituency communication network for members.There is also the category of advertising and printing, where we've had an increase of $2.1 million, mainly due to the promotions of the 150th anniversary of Confederation by the members, and there was also the increase in the House administrative printing cost as a result of the productions of the House of Commons Procedure and Practice book.The repairs and maintenance costs were also increased by $3.7 million as a result of the security enhancements to the West Block and the activities related to our long-term vision and plan.[Translation]Our revenues increased by $10 million owing to the increase in services provided to other parliamentary institutions and the increase in revenues generated by our catering services, cafeteria and restaurant.[English]As of March 31, 2018, the total budget for the House of Commons, adjusted to conform to the basis of accounting for these financial statements, was $598 million. When we subtract the House of Commons expenses and add our revenues, it provides us with a surplus last year of $22.7 million, which was also indicated when I presented our year-end financial report for 2017-18 last June.Finally, I want to inform you that we will be posting these financial statements to the House of Commons public website after this meeting.I will now give the representatives from KPMG the opportunity to present their audit results of these financial statements, and we will be open for any questions that you may have after the auditor's presentation.Financial statementsGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestAndrewNewmanAndrewNewmanAndrew-NewmanInterventionMr. Andrew Newman (Audit Partner, KPMG): (1130)[English] Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I am Andrew Newman. I am your independent engagement audit partner for the audit of the financial statements of the House of Commons. I am a partner in our audit practice here in Ottawa and I lead our public sector practice in Ottawa. I am also vice-chair of the Public Sector Accounting Board of Canada, which issues accounting standards used by governments across Canada. As well, I am a fellow of the Institute of the Chartered Professional Accountants of Ontario.I am here to present the independent auditor's report, which is on pages 4 and 5 of the financial statements. I want to underline that this is an independent auditor's report. We are independent of the House of Commons and serve in that role as your external auditors.The auditor's report is addressed to the Clerk of the House of Commons, which is entirely appropriate. As your CFO mentioned, the documents will be published on the website later today.The development of financial statements happens in a partnership between management and your external auditor, and we each have unique responsibilities. Management is responsible for the preparation and fair presentation of these financial statements in accordance with Canadian public sector accounting standards and for such internal controls as management determines are necessary to enable the preparation of these financial statements. That is why your CFO presented the financial statements today. Our responsibility as independent auditors is to express an opinion on these financial statements based on your audit. This audit is performed in accordance with Canadian generally accepted auditing standards, which are issued by the Canadian auditing standards board and are used for financial statement audits of every entity in this country. Those standards require that we comply with all professional and ethical requirements and plan and perform the audit to obtain reasonable assurance about whether the financial statements are free from material misstatement.In our auditor's report, in the last paragraph, you will see our independent auditor's opinion, and it is the clean, unmodified audit opinion that you should expect from your management team. It states that these financial statements present fairly, in all material respects, the operations and the financial position of the House for the year ended March 31, 2018.Let me speak a little bit about the audit process. We start with an audit plan that we file with your CFO and Clerk. We then perform our audit and issue an audit findings report, which I believe was provided to the members of this committee. This states how the audit went.I am very pleased to report that our audit went in accordance with that plan. We were on time and on budget and we issued our auditor's report on June 29, as expected.I am also pleased to report that during our audit, we did not find any material weaknesses in internal controls at the House of Commons in your administrative centre. That is excellent news for this committee. In addition, I must inform this committee that through an agreement between the House and the Office of the Auditor General and on behalf of the Auditor General, we performed the testing related to payroll with regard to their audit of the pay of the federal government using the Phoenix system.In their sample, they selected eight employees. We performed the testing on their behalf and informed them confidentially of the results of our testing. For our own purposes, to support our financial statement audit we increased that sample to 20 employees of the House of Commons. Again, I am very pleased to report that all 20 whom we sampled were, for the year ended March 31, 2018, paid the appropriate amount. However, during the year, three of those employees had issues with respect to pay. These were resolved by the end of the year, by March 31, 2018. That is a result of work, quite frankly, by your pay and HR administrators within the House, working with the Phoenix pay centre to get them corrected.With that, Mr. Speaker, I conclude my report. Financial statementsDanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Thank you very much.Are there questions or comments, colleagues?Seeing none, I thank you very much, Monsieur Paquette, and Mr. Newman, Mr. Fernandez, and Ms. Thivierge-Lortie.I understand that it is normal and good governance practice for independent auditors to have a discussion in camera with board members, without management present, regarding the preparation of the year-end audited financial statements. I would therefore like to propose to board members that we hold a short in camera session without the House administration officials to allow board members to have this discussion. Do I have the acceptance of members to proceed in camera?Some hon. members: Agreed. Hon. Geoff Regan: We will pause for a few minutes to go in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera](1135)(1145) [Public proceedings resume] AndrewNewmanGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English] Colleagues, the meeting is called back to order. We're in public again. [Translation]Let us now move on to the fourth point, the Report to Canadians.I will ask the Clerk of the House of Commons, Mr. Charles Robert, to give his presentation.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert (Clerk of the House of Commons): (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I am pleased to present the Report to Canadians 2018 to the Board of Internal Economy.The report provides an overview of the work of members during fiscal year 2017-18 and of the House of Commons Administration. More specifically, it focuses on our performance and achievements and includes relevant financial information drawn from the Public Accounts of Canada. In short, it is our annual report.[English]As some of you reminded us when we met to talk about last year’s publication, the “Report to Canadians” is much more than that; it's an important document by which we tell our story to Canadians.The “Report to Canadians” 2018 packs a lot of information into 48 pages. In the members’ snapshot section, for example, Canadians will find data on the composition of Parliament and on the nature of the work performed by members. There is statistical information about the House of Commons covering the past year, including the number of sitting days, the bills introduced by government and by private members, the volume of documents tabled and committee work.(1150)[Translation]This section also describes members' extraparliamentary activities through their participation in international associations. In addition, the reports presents a snapshot of the House Administration: the work done behind the scenes to prepare food and drive buses; to provide legal, financial and human resources services; to ensure that the Chamber and committees function as they should, and that parliamentary procedures and traditions are respected.[English]As you may recall, one of my first decisions as Clerk was to restructure the House administration to better coordinate our efforts and provide more seamless and enhanced services to members. I believe that this new arrangement has in part facilitated some of the administration’s accomplishments this past year, including preparations for the move from Centre Block to West Block. It's been a pretty big year.[Translation]Among the highlights, we celebrated Canada's sesquicentennial in parliamentary style by commemorating the first meeting of the first Parliament. We also carried out a host of legacy projects, such as the decorative window that will be a permanent reminder of this significant milestone, to be enjoyed by generations to come.[English]In 2017 the board opened its meetings to the public for the first time, our page program turned 40, and we published the third edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, the most comprehensive source of procedural information for members, their staff and others who, like me, have a passion for the procedures and practices that form our parliamentary system.The House administration was also honoured when it was recognized as a top employer in the national capital region and at the national level for young people for the second consecutive year.[Translation]With this overview, I think you have a good idea of the latest edition of the Report to Canadians. With your approval, the report will be tabled in the House and made available on ourcommons.ca. The Speaker will also encourage members to share the report with their constituents. [English]My team will work to ensure that it reaches Canadians by sharing the report with our parliamentary partners and counterparts in provincial and territorial legislatures, by distributing electronic copies to the media, by leveraging our traditional and social media channels to promote it, and by amplifying the message about the work that happens on the Hill by teaming up with the Library of Parliament to engage the public. We know we have a good story to tell.If you have any comments or questions, I would be happy to respond.Clerk of the House of CommonsHouse of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Holland.CharlesRobertMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Chief Government Whip): (1150)[English]Thank you very much. It's an excellent overview. I think the document is fantastic. It does justice to this place in telling our story. Can you give me a sense, because I'm not aware of its circulation, of its distribution? I presume it's available electronically, and there will be hard copies present as well. Do we have a sense of how many Canadians see this, how widely viewed it is? Just expand upon the channels where it's available.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert: (1150)[English]As you wouldn't be surprised to know, it attracts more attention the moment it's released, and then there's a declining slope.This is an online document. From the reports we've had, we've had 2,290 hits to see the English document and almost 600 to see it on the French side. We're looking at a total of about 3,400 over the course of the last—Clerk of the House of CommonsHouse of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018MarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]It's not quite 36 million, but—CharlesRobertMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1150)[English]I wasn't expecting 36 million.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc (Minister of Intergovernmental and Northern Affairs and Internal Trade): (1150)[English]You have that many on your Facebook, don't you?MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1150)[English]Yes. Geoff will work harder to ensure more people see it, Mr. Speaker.I would imagine other parliaments produce similar documents.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018DominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert: (1150)[English]I'm not sure that everyone does, but I'm sure some do.Clerk of the House of CommonsHouse of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1150)[English]I'm curious to see those. It's something I can do offline. Thank you very much. It's an excellent report.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018CharlesRobertGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Is there anyone else?Go ahead, Madam Chagger.MarkHollandHon.AjaxBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1150)[English]I would build off some innovative ways of how we get it to more classes across the country, because we really do want to see more people being connected to this place. It does belong to Canadians and it is an attractive document, so I think that now that we are online, perhaps we would be able to find ways to share more broadly. Social media definitely is one way.Another thing I would perhaps recommend for future editions is having some personal stories that could be shared with people. I had a family this week come to visit me. She was a grandparent who was bringing her grandson for his birthday trip, and they wanted to have a moment together. It was neat to see the interactions and being able to have some conversation, so I just figured we could make it more relatable so that more people would see themselves in this place and would thereby want to perhaps expose themselves to such a document.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert: (1155)[English]One thing I think we should do to help in promoting the document is make greater use of the Forum for Young Canadians and also the Teachers Institute. I think the Teachers Institute is expected to meet sometime before we rise for the winter adjournment. This is an annual event in which up to 80 teachers come from across the country. They are energized by the exercise of red carpet treatment here for a week. They come here to learn about Parliament to make them better teachers, more informed, and I think you're quite right: using this document and other documents, which are easily absorbable, would be one way to pass the message on.Clerk of the House of CommonsHouse of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]I should point out, as members probably know, that we have material specifically designed for use by teachers in classrooms. Those are available to teachers across the country. Whether they use them or not, of course, is up to them.Some might feel this is something they want to use, but certainly having the Teachers Institute and teachers coming here helps that, because over the years we've had quite a few teachers. As they spread out across the country, they of course, one would think, talk to their colleagues about what they learned here and share it, and hopefully there is more adoption and use of these kinds of documents.Go ahead, Mr. LeBlanc.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018CharlesRobertDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc: (1155)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.[Translation]Congratulations, Mr. Robert. I agree with my colleagues. It is a very interesting and very well prepared report that gives people an understanding of the work done by all members of the House of Commons.I would like to offer some words of encouragement.As the Speaker just pointed out, the Teachers Institute and the Forum for Young Canadians are places where this report could be distributed, either in its current form or a modified version. The communications services team could give that some thought.The schools in my riding really appreciate the material they receive to encourage young people to participate in the Page Program, and I see the Speaker agrees. This is a time of year when many MPs try informally to get school principals to encourage their best students to register for this program. In the material sent to francophone high school students in New Brunswick, perhaps attention could be drawn to this report or it could be included in some way in grade 12 classes that pertain to law or political, economic or legal institutions, in short, subjects related to the work of Parliament. There are all kinds of programs across the country that address the civic responsibility of youth. Such programs could be used to encourage young people to sign up for the Page Program, which we know is a success. That is just a suggestion.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert: (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Clerk of the House of CommonsDominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Leblanc.Would anyone else like to say something?[English]Go ahead, Mr. Holland.CharlesRobertMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1155)[English] Mr. Speaker, when we're talking about members' activities, I'm just wondering, through you to the Clerk, about there being no discussion about the activities that occur in the riding, an extension of the House into all parts of Canada. I think I understand the reason it's not present—it's because it would be very difficult to quantify—but obviously the roots of this place extend far beyond the activities that occur in this building. I recognize it would be very difficult to quantify because you would have to have members report on activities in the riding, which would be extremely onerous, but was that omission considered, and is it for that reason that it's not present?House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCharlesRobertCharlesRobertCharles-RobertInterventionMr. Charles Robert: (1200)[English]I can't answer with certainty about the reasons it's not covered, but I suspect you're right in saying it's because it is difficult to quantify.We could perhaps present a report about the variety of activities that members undertake when they're in their ridings meeting their electors, their fellow citizens. We could probably add that. It goes to the point that Madam Chagger raised about having a human interest element in the report that speaks to the nature of the work you do on behalf of your constituents when you are in your constituency.Clerk of the House of CommonsHouse of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018MarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[English]What would you think of the idea of indicating the total number of offices members have across the country? Of course it's going to be more than 338, because there are some enormous ridings. The full-time equivalents who work in those—does that sort of stuff seem like the kind of thing that fits into this? Are you looking for the kind of thing the Clerk has talked about, information about what members do in their constituency offices?House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018CharlesRobertMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1200)[English] Mr. Speaker, I think both.Part of what occurred to me when I was reading through the document was that often people see Parliament as a distant place that is conducting its business at a great length from their individual lives, and of course the truth is that the process of making legislation, the process of how this place works, is intricately interwoven into every constituency across the country. I think for people to understand how they interact with this place as individuals and the different ways in which members engage constituents and how they're linked into this process is an important part of the story of this place. It may help remove some of that sense of distance. I recognize that huge masses are not reading this document at this time, but that could be pretty foundational to people who are reading this and to their understanding of this place and how it works. In my view, that component is currently missing.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[English]Thank you very much.Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1200)[English]I appreciate the interventions so far. As the Speaker alluded to earlier, I think we need an awareness of the products that are currently available through the Library of Parliament that perhaps are better designed to speak to some of the things that have been raised.The report is designed to be more user-friendly, to be more attractive to look at, to be easy to digest, but before we get too prescriptive, I would think we would want to deal with how Canadians govern themselves. The package that members get from the library includes a PowerPoint presentation that we can take to schools and use to talk about both our work in Ottawa and in our constituencies. I think that work has largely been done, whether every member is aware of it or whether.... If that work has been done and it's available, we can perhaps get a full understanding of every tool that's available. I don't think you're going to get all those tools into the annual report to Canadians. We would like to make the report as exciting as possible, but other tools are available.Perhaps at a future meeting we could have the library to talk about that.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[English]Undoubtedly you find all the other annual reports you read from various organizations to be very fascinating, I'm sure.Is there anyone else? Go ahead, Madam Chagger.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1200)[English]The annual report changes every year, based on what's occurred. You've been able to highlight that the BOIE is now an open body. A lot of the documents the Speaker was referring to are documents that stay the same over a long period of time. People can relate to this document by being able to highlight other things that took place on the Hill that year, versus what won't change. Yes, the way government and Parliament work is very similar over time, but in the annual report you're able to highlight different things. Most people don't come here every year. I think that's where we could have a connection.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English] Thank you.I just want to highlight, for the benefit of anyone watching who is not familiar with the terminology used around here, that when we say “BOIE”, we're referring to the Board of Internal Economy.Is there anyone else on this? Thank you very much.In that case we'll go on to number 5 on the agenda, the Joint Interparliamentary Council and the parliamentary associations' activities and expenditures. The presenters are Bruce Stanton, MP and Deputy Speaker—our superb Deputy Speaker, by the way—and co-chair of the Joint Interparliamentary Council, and Colette Labrecque-Riel, clerk assistant and director general, international and interparliamentary affairs.[Translation]Mr. Deputy Speaker... [English]Oh, just a minute; sorry. Go ahead, Madame Brosseau.FinancingHouse of Commons administrationInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilReport to Canadians 2018BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1205)[English]I'm sorry. We adopted the report, right?GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Okay. I should clarify that. Ruth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1205)[English] You should ask the question.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Yes, thank you very much.Is it agreed to adopt the “Report to Canadians” and that I should table it?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: I appreciate that. It's very helpful.Now, we go on to the next matter. Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have the floor.House of Commons administrationReport to Canadians 2018Ruth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35724BruceStantonBruce-StantonSimcoe NorthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/StantonBruce_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bruce Stanton (Co-Chair, Joint Interparliamentary Council): (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker and members of the Board of Internal Economy.I am pleased to present to you today a report on the activities and expenditures of the interparliamentary associations for fiscal year 2017-18. As you know, this report pertains to the activities of the 13 associations. I am joined by Ms. Colette Labrecque-Riel, principal clerk of the Joint Interparliamentary Council.[English]I have with me a deck, essentially just a couple of pages, that effectively highlights some of the points of our report for the last fiscal year. It is divided into three sections: the first part, which is around the structure and governance for the associations and JIC; then an overview of all of the association activities for that fiscal year; and finally the bulk of the report, which is essentially a summary on each of the 13 associations' activities.On the next slide, it's essentially the key highlights. You may recall that this would be the first fiscal year that the interparliamentary associations had a higher budget. We had this discussion some time ago about an increase in the overall spending envelope, and that resulted in an increase in the number of travel activities, to 50 different countries, and 53 inbound delegations. We did see an uptick in the number of travel activities—pardon me; in the number of participants for each trip, if I can call them that, from about four to five, and back to somewhat of a historical average for most of these travel activities.In the actual budgetary envelope, the parliamentary associations' total spending was around $4.5 million. As I mentioned, that's with that extra $1 million in total for all these activities. Of that, contributions, or membership fees, were just shy of $1.4 million, and activity expenditures were $2.75 million.You'll see, as is usual, that a certain amount of the budget for activities is unspent. This happens due to planning and the time periods around which these activities are planned and agreed to. Each of the associations determines its own travel activities in that regard. Ultimately, we've seen over the years that they never really need or require the full envelope, and this year is no exception, with roughly 91% of the budget being used, leaving 9% on the table, an amount of about $425,000 that was underspent for this past year.That's it, essentially. It's a snapshot of what occurred in the last fiscal year. We'd be happy to take any questions.FinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Thank you.Are there any questions?Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.BruceStantonSimcoe NorthMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker and Mr. Speaker.I appreciate the overview, and I do recall being seized with the issue of funding earlier this year. I want to talk about the activities and expenditures of parliamentary associations. It's been my understanding for a number of years that these are essentially non-partisan associations in which members with interests in particular countries or particular causes get together and represent Canada on the world stage and often host people and other delegations in Canada as well.As a result of activities that occurred this very week—your visit is timely—we find ourselves in what I would consider a very grave situation relating particularly to the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association—Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]The representatives of the Joint Interparliamentary Council are here today in relation to their report regarding activities and expenditures from April 1, 2017, to March 31, 2018—events of last year, not this year—and in relation to general activities, not particular activities.Second, the matter you're raising is one on which I have rulings pending, so I'm not prepared to have to entertain this topic today.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1210)[English]Do you have any indication of when you would expect to deliver those rulings, Mr. Speaker?Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]It will be in the fullness of time, in due course.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1210)[English]In the fullness of time.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Obviously I'm anxious to do so as soon as possible.Go ahead, Ms. Bergen.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1210)[English] Very respectfully, BOIE does not operate as we operate in the chamber. This is an open and public meeting. If this now becomes a place where we can't.... If Bruce and Colette don't have answers, they can tell us that and I think we would accept it, but I think, Geoff, it's going to make things even worse if you now do not allow Mark to ask about this when literally it is what we're seized with and it is the elephant in the room and this is our job.Why don't we talk about it and let the folks who are at the head of the table here give their answer? I think for you to shut it down right now is going to be very concerning on a lot of levels.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Holland.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1210)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I think your ruling is most appropriate. The reality is that this matter is before you and is being considered. You are deliberating on it. Obviously once your ruling has been given, we can discuss the matter further.I would say secondly that the BOIE is a body that operates on the basis of consensus, on the basis of non-partisanship. There are many different venues through which we could have conversations on matters being discussed here that are quite partisan in nature. Therefore, I would submit that this is not the appropriate venue for this conversation.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Thank you.Mr. Stanton, is there anything you wish to add to this comment?MarkHollandHon.AjaxBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35724BruceStantonBruce-StantonSimcoe NorthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/StantonBruce_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bruce Stanton: (1210)[English]I don't really want to render an opinion on the proceedings of this committee. I think certainly members will be cognizant of the points of order that were raised in the House yesterday, and that covered much of that ground. I think members are well aware that this has become a matter of some dispute, and it ultimately has been taken before the House to you, Mr. Speaker, for some kind of guidance or resolution.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]I look forward to providing a ruling in the near future.Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationFinancingInternational and Interparliamentary AffairsJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffBruceStantonSimcoe NorthMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1210)[English]Would you permit me to ask Mr. Stanton if the dispute over who is the current chair of the NATO Parliamentary Association is a matter with which the Joint Interparliamentary Council is currently seized?Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Stanton.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35724BruceStantonBruce-StantonSimcoe NorthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/StantonBruce_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Bruce Stanton: (1210)[English]We had a meeting of the Joint Interparliamentary Council yesterday. This meeting was in camera, so I can't speak in terms of some of the activities—or, shall I say, the brief debate that took place on this matter—without going into details. I will say that there is another meeting, an urgent meeting, scheduled for next week.Canadian NATO Parliamentary AssociationJoint Interparliamentary CouncilMinutes and Evidence of CommitteesParliamentary staffGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English] Thank you very much. I think that deals with this issue for the moment.Are there any other matters related to the Joint Interparliamentary Council's report? Seeing none, we're going to go on to the next matter, which requires us to go back in camera.The meeting will adjourn for a moment while we go in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera]BruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0091st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, October 4, 2018Le jeudi 4 octobre 2018Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTOctober 4, 2018CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 009 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 009 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 009 (Version officielle)009041020182018/10/04 11:20:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1115)[English] This meeting of the Board of Internal Economy is called to order.First of all, we have the minutes of the previous meeting. Are there any concerns about the minutes of the previous meeting?Hearing none, I'll go on to business arising from the previous meeting. Is there any business arising from the previous meeting? Not seeing any, I'll go on.We'll have a presentation by Michel Patrice, deputy clerk, administration; Stéphan Aubé, chief information officer; and Susan Kulba, senior director, architecture and long-term vision and plan, program management directorate. This is concerning, of course, the long-term vision and plan.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice (Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1115)[Translation]Mr. Chair and distinguished board members, we are here to provide an update on the status of the work on the West Block and the Visitor Welcome Centre.[English]As has been said again and again, the West Block's rehabilitation is very complex. It also includes phase one of the new visitor welcome centre, which has been designed to be the front door to Parliament for the public.While major structural construction was near completion in June 2018, other construction activities were and still are ongoing, such as construction work, deficiency reviews and correction, landscaping, IT and security integration, commissioning and testing, along with all occupancy-readiness activities.[Translation]The House of Commons, and Public Services and Procurement Canada worked diligently together over the summer to ensure that the work on the West Block and the Visitor Welcome Centre progressed. The projects were conducted in parallel, with a view to completing them.[English]Commissioning, testing and training of those facilities has commenced and will continue until the end of December. Major and minor dry runs have been carried out to work out operational and building issues, with the remainder planned for the next two months.As it happens, PSPC is handing over zones of the building to the House of Commons as they are completed. It is expected that minor deficiencies will continue past the handover of the building without disruption to Parliament over the many months ahead, and probably for at least a full year.(1120)[Translation]The work on exterior landscaping and parking is expected to be completed by the end of September. [English]It is my understanding that the project is on track for the Senate, also.Now, in terms of updates, there is the status of the security component.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[English]We'll have to discuss that in camera. I suggest that you save that until we have to go in camera later on regarding legal matters. Thank you.MichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1120)[Translation]In conclusion, Parliament is a unique environment that requires completely functional and operational facilities providing uninterrupted services. We are convinced that we have acted prudently and have taken the time needed to ensure that the West Block is fully functional, meaning that it has been equipped with the technology required, that it provides a safe and secure environment, and that the staff is adequately trained for the work of Parliament to proceed smoothly.[English]There is no doubt in my mind that the West Block and the visitor welcome centre will be fully functional and operational when the House resumes in January in its new interim facility. That said, we are aware that once we occupy a living building, we may have some surprises with the functioning of the technology or the operation of the building, but we are ready to take on the challenges and to resolve any issues or adapt to this new environment without major disruption to the operation of the House.I wish to recognize the continuous effort and commitment of your administration and our partners, PSPC and PCL, in making sure that this project is a success. It's been a long journey and we're happy that we're almost there.Thank you. We'll be ready to take on any questions.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectParliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[English] Are there any questions, colleagues? I don't see any.[Translation]Thank you, sir. We appreciated your presentation a great deal.Mr. Leblanc, the floor is yours.MichelPatriceDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): (1120)[English]Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry for being a couple of seconds late. I was coming from another meeting. Maybe Michel addressed this already.I appreciate and understand the presentation in terms of the House. Asking you to speculate is not fair, but I will do it anyway. In terms of what we understand from our colleagues on the Senate side—because we've talked about this at this table before—if our state of readiness is where it is, and it's thanks to all the good work that you describe, do we have a similar comfort that the Senate...? Do we have reason to think they're in a circumstance where they're going to conclude something different in a month from now or two months from now, or are you comfortable, based on what you hear? It could all change. I understand all of that.I'm curious if people have an insight into whether the Senate process with respect to the train station facility is equally reassuring.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectSenate and senatorsWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1120)[English]Yes, it is my understanding that for the Senate side as well, their project, in terms of the train station and the committee rooms at 1 Wellington, is on track.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectSenate and senatorsWest BlockDominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc: (1120)[Translation]Thank you.MichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[English]Thank you very much.[Translation]We will now move on to discuss the 2018-19 quarterly report.I invite Daniel Paquette, the Chief Financial Officer, to speak to us.DominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1120)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.[Translation]I am here today to present the first quarterly financial report for the 2018-19 financial year.(1125)[English]This is the first opportunity I've had since the end of our first quarter to come before the board to present to and support the board in its function overseeing the use of the public funds from the administration.This report compares the financial information for the first quarter, which ended June 30 of this current fiscal year, with the financial information from the same quarter of the previous year. It is prepared on an expenditure basis of accounting, which is consistent with the Public Accounts of Canada. The approved authority in this report includes the House of Commons' main estimates, as well as other items that have already been approved by the board during that quarter.[Translation]As of June 30, the authorities approved for 2018-19, in the amount of $522.9 million, represent an increase of $11.9 million, or 2.3%, over the authorities for 2017-18.The most significant changes are in the $10.6 million increase for ongoing investments in our long-term vision and plan.[English]At the end of the first quarter of 2018-19, the expenditures totalled $110.8 million compared with $106.6 for the same quarter of the previous fiscal year. This represents an increase of $4.2 million, or 4%.If we look at the table in the report showing the expenditures by type of cost, you'll see that the significant increase in expenditures year over year was related mainly to salaries and benefits, which did increase by $5 million. This is due to the investments made in our long-term vision plan and other major investments, such as the adjustments to our food service modernization and the optimization of their services, the House officers' expenditure disclosure and the human resource service's capacity for pay and benefits. There were also other implications as a result of cost-of-living increases for many of our employees in the House administration. There was also an increase in staffing actions compared with previously for members' staff.[Translation]In addition, the rental and licence costs for 2018-19 are considerably lower than those in the same quarter last year. The decrease is mainly due to the changes in the payment periods for renewing those software licences for our various office and network applications.In these cases, payments were made in March rather than April in order to fully conform to the new agreements with our suppliers.[English] Finally, there's another table in the report that provides a comparison of our utilization of resources for year over year, which shows a slight increase of 0.3% compared with last year for the utilization of resources in that particular quarter.Mr. Speaker, that concludes my presentation for this first quarterly report.[Translation]I am ready to answer questions from board members.2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English]Thank you very much.Are there any questions, colleagues?Mr. Strahl.DanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1125)[English] Thank you.I just have a question about the LTVP increase. I think we can all recognize that this is a major project requiring significant resources. I would say that it's been my experience, anyway, that when the House administration, say, receives additional funds for a project, perhaps there is not a plan to get back down to a different level once the said project is complete. Is there a plan? Is it in the plan that, once the LTVP is completed, we will see the same level of funds required, or will that be reduced once that project is complete and we've moved over to the West Block facility?2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[English]To put everything into perspective, when we look at the actual project cost—the building, the construction and the installation of all the equipment in there—that is the Public Works project. It's not expenditures that are in our reports here. What we have are our adjustments to the capacity to support the newer building, the new technology and the new way of doing business. There is capacity to ramp up and get us in there, so there will be a reduction when I come back with the main estimates and things. We'll see a slight reduction, but it's not in any order of magnitude compared with the size of the project, because this entails the capacity to adapt to the new way of doing business in a very modern building.2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1125)[English]So, this isn't really a surge to get us over there. This is the new normal, really.2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[English]There is a surge, but it's not in the tens of millions of dollars. It's a smaller amount.2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1130)[English]Thank you.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English]Mr. Holland.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland (Chief Government Whip): (1130)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.Just on that point—and excuse me because I'm new to the BOIE—GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1130)[English] Welcome.MarkHollandHon.AjaxMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1130)[English]Thank you. I appreciate that.Could you expand upon the point that you're making about supporting new ways of doing business? How does that manifest? In what ways will we see those services being conducted differently?2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[English]I could probably ask Stéphan or somebody from the project to come to talk about this, but a big part of it is that services will be provided with more modern technology and tools. Historically, we've bought technology. We've bought upfront the licences and the use of them once, and we have them for the duration. Now everything is on an annual renewal. We have to pay an annual service in an annual capacity, and the fact that we have upscaled a bit of that piece.... However, I'll let our experts here give you more details.2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresNew technologiesMarkHollandHon.AjaxStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1130)[English] Mr. Holland, the majority of the funds that we're seeking is actually for the management and the life cycling of the assets that have been generated with this new construction. There is a large amount of networking equipment. There are large amounts of audio and video broadcasting equipment, and there are large amounts of IT and physical security equipment that have been installed in this facility, but which aren't in the existing facility that we have right now. The money that we're seeking is to maintain and support them, as Dan was talking about. It's basically the ongoing licensing costs on a year-to-year basis that we have to pay to the Ciscos and the Microsofts of this world. Then there is also the actual life cycling, the break-fix, the repairs and all of that. I would say that 80% of these costs are for that, and 20% are really for the maintenance and support of these costs.2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresDanielPaquetteMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1130)[English]If I understand correctly, Mr. Speaker, then the costs are for individuals who are going to maintain and continue to keep these systems updated. Can you explain to me—because we would have already had, within the House at it currently exists today, audio and visual capacity and networking capacity—what additional services are being delivered for this delta or difference in costs that we're looking at?2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1130)[English]The majority of the funding.... I'll give you an example. All of the security equipment was previously not connected to the network, so there's a large increase in investments on the networking side from what we have with existing facilities. The integrated security system is now overlaid over our network, which requires major investments on the networking side of the business. Also, the device that we're using.... As you've noticed in this building—I don't want to get into the details—we don't have access control in many areas. Now we have access control throughout the facilities. There are large investments that were made. There are going to be more televised committee rooms than what we have currently. The audiovisual equipment in the rooms that are being built is completely different from that in existing facilities. You can expect a capital investment of around $2 million in audiovisual or broadcasting equipment per room that we didn't have in the existing facilities. This is where the funding is actually coming from.2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresMarkHollandHon.AjaxDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[English] I appreciate that and the fact that you're new to the board. When we came to the funding about a year ago, we had almost a three-year outlook. We committed to the board that we would come back during that third year once we had really gotten used to running the new building and the new technology and the new way of doing business. At that point, we would adjust the funding appropriately to what we needed, with a full understanding of the implications of the new building. We will be coming back and getting into a level of detail that will bring you comfort, demonstrating that we are only using the money we need. 2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresStéphanAubéMarkHollandHon.Ajax//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25508MarkHollandHon.Mark-HollandAjaxLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HollandMark_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mark Holland: (1130)[English]We need to know where we are and then contrast that against what we're moving to so we can see the difference in capacity and understand what those investments are getting us. I also think it's valuable for members to know what additional services will be available, or how things might be conducted differently. This is not just for the purposes of understanding this particular expenditure, but also to understand the new services that might be at our disposal. As a supplementary question to that, does this additional capacity envision new ways of doing business in the future? Does it bear on the ability of members to receive matters such as this electronically, to vote electronically? Does the capacity go beyond those services that you're immediately offering? Is additional capacity being contemplated for where the ball might be going on some of these things?2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresDanielPaquetteStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1135)[English]The investments have been made in the infrastructure for allowing the definition of new services such as these in the future. The networking infrastructure, for example Wi-Fi, has been installed everywhere in the facility, so we can have different electronic mediums to provide the documentation we need. We didn't have that in these facilities. We did provide the infrastructure. Having said that, I can tell you that the definition of the exact services to improve committee business is something that we work on with the members of the Liaison Committee and the different committees to determine. We consider the specific services they want to add, recognizing the infrastructure investments that have been made in these facilities. 2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresMarkHollandHon.AjaxGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Am I correct in thinking that some of the additional costs are because of the fact that we're moving into a more confined space, which will affect, for instance, food preparation and food service? Would you like to tell us about that?2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresStéphanAubéBenoitGirouxBenoitGirouxBenoit-GirouxInterventionMr. Benoit Giroux (Chief Operations Officer, Parliamentary Precinct Operations, House of Commons): (1135)[English] Because of the new reality of the future campus, we have to undergo a full transformation of our food services, because now we're going to rely entirely on the food production facility. We have to transport all of the food every day to the premises, to the precinct, using the new access at the new visitors welcome centre. That has required a number of transformations from our standpoint to better serve our clients.2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]We're working on a transporter beam, but so far, no luck. That would be way too expensive. Is there anything else?[Translation]Thank you very much.[English]Now we're going to have to go in camera to discuss one thing we already mentioned, as well as some legal matters. We'll pause for a few minutes while we go in camera. [Proceedings continue in camera]2018-2019 Quarterly Financial Report (Q1)Government expendituresBenoitGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0081st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, June 14, 2018Le jeudi 14 juin 2018Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTJune 14, 2018CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 008 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 008 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 008 (Version officielle)008140620182018/06/14 11:20:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1115)[English] The Board of Internal Economy is called to order. The first items we have are the minutes and business arising from the previous meeting. Are there any issues with either of those, either the minutes or business arising from them? Not seeing any, we'll go on to the next item, which is the 2017-18 year-end financial report. Presenting on this item is—[Translation]Joining us is Daniel Paquette, the Chief Financial Officer of the House of Commons.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1115)[English] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.[Translation]I am here today to present the 2017-18 Year-End Financial Report and to seek your approval to include the carry-forward of the operating budget into the 2018-19 supplementary estimates (A).(1120)[English]This financial report has been prepared using an expenditure basis of accounting, which is consistent with the Public Accounts of Canada, where these will be published this fall. This report provides the final authorities and expenditures for 2017–18, along with comparative information from previous fiscal years.[Translation]Parliament provides the House with authorities so that it can support members according to the usual parliamentary schedule. Authorities for 2017-18 in the amount of $513 million represent an increase of $44.8 million, or 9.6%, over the previous year's authorities.The most significant changes involve the $21.6 million increase to the MP pension plan. There is also the $12.8 million increase for ongoing investments in the Parliamentary Precinct long-term plan and other major investments such as security enhancements in the West Block, the digital strategy to develop a modernized approach to the delivery of parliamentary information, the disclosure of members and House officers, and the expansion of the pay and benefits team.Other changes include economic increases for various employees of the House administration, increases to the budgets of members and House officers, and increases to members' sessional allowances.In 2017-18, expenditures total $490 million compared to $445 million in 2016-17. This increase of $45.5 million, or 10.2%, corresponds to the increase in authorities received in 2017-18.[English]The expenditures are also presented by type of costs. The most significant increase in expenditures for 2017–18 over previous years was the salary and benefits, which increased by $47.7 million. This increase was mainly due to a $25.2-million adjustment, as directed by the actuarial report on the pension plan for members of Parliament. This was offset by a decrease of $3.7 million due to the reduction of the employer contribution to the plan.As well, significant investments were made in the staffing to support those major investments, such as the food service modernization and optimization of services, the House office expenditure disclosure, the digital strategy to modernize the delivery of parliamentary information, and the long-term vision and plan.The other factors contributing to the increase in expenditures are the economic increases I previously mentioned, for which we had received the appropriation.[Translation]In addition, revenues for 2017-18 have changed significantly from 2016-17. Total revenues increased by $9.2 million, because of services provided to federal government departments and agencies and other parliamentary institutions, all on a cost-recovery basis. We also had a slight increase in revenues from caterers, cafeterias and the restaurant.[English]Finally, the report provides a comparison of the authorities to the expenditures for 2017–18. As mentioned, the total authorities were $513 million, while expenditures amounted to $490 million, leaving a surplus of $22.7 million. This amount corresponds to the lapse that will be reported in the Public Accounts of Canada. The surplus reflects the fact that the authorities received are intended to support 338 members. Due to the fact that by-elections were held in 11 constituencies during the past year, there were fewer members and less support was required, resulting in reduced spending overall.[Translation]The surplus represents 7.1% of the total estimates voted in 2017-18.[English]The House of Commons typically follows the government's practice of carrying forward any lapsed funds up to a maximum of 5% of the main estimates. Therefore, I'm seeking your approval to include a carry-forward of $15.9 million into the 2018–19 supplementary estimates (A), representing 5% of our year main estimates. As we do not expect to have any other items to include in our supplementary estimates (A), we are seeking the opportunity to get your approval here today for this carry-forward, instead of returning with a separate submission at a later meeting.Mr. Speaker, this concludes my presentation on the financial reports.[Translation]I am ready to answer any questions the members of the committee may have.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[Translation]Thank you very much.Mr. Rodriguez, the floor is yours.DanielPaquettePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Chief Government Whip): (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Paquette, it's always a pleasure to see you.That sounds pretty standard. I just have one quick question. How does the current carry-forward compare to last year? I assume this also includes the 5% of members' office budgets that have not been spent and are carried forward. Is that correct?2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[Translation]Yes, exactly.Last year's carry-forward was $15.4 million and this year's is $15.9 million. The two amounts represent 5% of the voted items each year.A large portion of this year's carry-forward, $6.9 million of the $15.9 million, represents the portion that will be transferred to members' budgets.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1125)[Translation]Okay, thank you.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English] Mr. Strahl is next.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1125)[English]My question follows on that. It's never really clear. Perhaps I haven't paid enough attention. In my budget this year, I had $6,000 remaining. Is this what we're talking about when we talk about members of Parliament's unspent amounts that come back to House administration? It doesn't go back into general revenue, or anything like that.I would like members to understand what happens to the monies that they do not spend as part of their total allocation.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[English]At this point here, our total surplus is some $22.2 million. That, in essence, is the money that we haven't spent this year. We don't spend what we don't need.The full amount goes back into the central fund. The carry-forward is an additional authority that we ask, through our supplementary estimates, to be added to this year's appropriation. The full amount goes back to the central account, and we ask for the additional portion, of which a portion goes back to the members. We make sure to reinvest the other portion in activities or projects that are there to support the members.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English] The members' MOBs are part of that.Mr. Daniel G. Paquette: Yes.Hon. Geoff Regan: Sorry.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1125)[English]In terms of percentages, what amounts did members of Parliament lapse or not spend, and what percentage did the House administration...? How do those compare in terms of percentages of available budgets? Were members of Parliament more frugal perhaps than even our colleagues in the House administration?2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[English]It's difficult to say that the members may be more frugal.The fact that we did have 11 by-elections this year means that those MOBs were less used than the other MOBs. For the carry-forward overall, the surplus for members is a little over 7%, while the one for the administration is around 3%.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1125)[English]Thank you.DanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1125)[English]There were various contributing factors to that.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English]The members can't take all of the credit themselves, darn it.Is there anybody else? Is it agreed to accept the recommendation?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: That is agreed.[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Paquette.[English]The next item is guided tours of West Block by the Library of Parliament. We'll wait a moment while the presenters come up and the others leave.Presenting on this from the Library of Parliament will be Catherine MacLeod, Assistant Parliamentary Librarian, and Benoit Morin, Senior Ddirector, Public Eeducation Programs.Ms. MacLeod, when you're ready, the floor is yours.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportGovernment expendituresParliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockDanielPaquetteCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod (Assistant Parliamentary Librarian, Library of Parliament): (1125)[English] Honourable members of Parliament, it's my pleasure to address the board today regarding the plan for the visitor experience at the West Block after Centre Block closes. I'm accompanied by Benoit Morin, Senior Director, Public Education Programs.The Library of Parliament is responsible for the provision of visitor services on behalf of Parliament. Although we're discussing West Block today, the public will also have an opportunity to visit the Senate and the Government Conference Centre.Public access remains, as always, a high priority. Access to Parliament will continue throughout the rehabilitation of Centre Block. There are two ways for visitors to visit Parliament in person, both now and after the move. They may either take a guided tour or observe MPs at work from a seat in the gallery or at committee. Access to the public galleries for question period and debates will continue for visitors, including school groups, in the interim chamber. This follows the same procedures that are currently in place in Centre Block.(1130)[Translation]Guided tours of the West Block will be offered during the entire closure period, which is expected to last 10 years. Two separate experiences will be offered: one at the West Block and one at the Government Conference Centre. In both cases, the visits will focus on the role of the House of Commons and the Senate.The visitor experience, particularly the reception, group assembly and guided tours, will be tailored to the new building. Overall, it is smaller than the Centre Block. That is why the guided tours had to be adjusted accordingly. This is important for parliamentarians because they must continue their activities.I now invite Benoit Morin to go over the West Block visitor plan after the Centre Block closes.Library of ParliamentParliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBenoitMorinBenoitMorinBenoit-MorinInterventionMr. Benoit Morin (Senior Director, Public Education Program, Library of Parliament): (1130)[English] Today, guided tours include stops in the Senate and the House of Commons chambers, the foyers, the Hall of Honour, and the Library of Parliament. Tours only stop in the chamber and foyer when the House of Commons is not sitting. Similarly, guided tours will be offered in West Block and will include the interim chamber of the House of Commons with stops in the public gallery and on the chamber floor. Tours will also visit a committee room and learn about the transformation of the heritage building. To adjust to the differences presented by West Block that Catherine mentioned, guided tours will occur when the House of Commons is not sitting, and the Senate tours will follow the same principle as in the Government Conference Centre for two reasons.First, there will be a space restriction, especially in common space areas. The West Block was originally built in the late 1880s as a working office building without the intention of having it shown to the public and without consideration for the unique requirements of different users, such as parliamentarians, tour groups, and staff. The areas to be visited by the public are next to and intertwined with the other working spaces, making it a challenge not to affect business traffic and parliamentary affairs. Second, tours being offered in Centre Block currently stop by the chamber only when it's not in use. This works well in Centre Block, because visitors are shown the highly recognized Hall of Honour and the iconic main library building in lieu of the chamber and the foyer. In West Block, when parliamentarians are debating in the interim chamber, there will be no alternate key viewing points for visitors to compensate for not visiting the chamber. We have planned for this. The hours for guided tours will be extended and expanded on weekends, break weeks, and during the summer.[Translation]These changes will be communicated in a number of ways, including news releases, updates on the visitors' website and on social media, to ensure that parliamentarians and other stakeholders are well informed.The Library remains the main point of service for parliamentarians and is available to provide personalized services, answer questions about the services provided and assist them.An electronic ticketing system will be launched to facilitate the booking of visits, from a mobile device, for example. If they so wish, employees of members' offices may continue to consult with reservation officers to facilitate reservations for their constituents. As for groups of students, they can always book visits of a general nature or based on their school program.We will run our activities from the new Visitor Centre, which will be adjacent to the West Block. This new underground facility will become the main gateway for visitors to enter the temporary facilities.In this modern underground complex, there will be visitor spaces, including a larger Parliament store.Library of ParliamentParliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod: (1135)[English]The Library of Parliament has been working diligently with its partners to redesign how we welcome visitors to Parliament Hill on your behalf so that they continue to have a high-quality experience during the Centre Block closure. [Translation]Thank you for inviting us to appear before you today. We will be happy to answer any questions you may have.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockBenoitMorinGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[Translation] Mr. Rodriguez, the floor is yours.CatherineMacLeodPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1135)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My thanks to the witnesses for being here.I look at the pictures and I think it's beautiful. It will be really beautiful.I'm wondering about the impact of all this on the visits, particularly by students. This is an important part of their education. If I understand correctly, visits will no longer be possible when the House is in session. Is that correct?Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod: (1135)[Translation]That's correct.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1135)[Translation]Do you have any idea how many visits that take place while the House is sitting compared to when it is not sitting?Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod: (1135)[Translation]We have done that analysis and the level of access will be the same as it is now. However, visits will be distributed differently throughout the year.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1135)[Translation]Okay. There will therefore be many more visits during adjournment periods, when we are in our ridings.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod: (1135)[Translation] Exactly.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1135)[Translation]How many seats will there be in the galleries compared to the current number?Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod: (1135)[Translation]I'll ask our partners to answer that question.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice (Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1135)[Translation]There will be 346 seats in the West Block, whereas there are currently 581 in the Centre Block. This represents a 40% reduction in the number of seats in the galleries.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockCatherineMacLeodGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English] It's 581 and— Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1135)[English]—and 346 in the new one.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1135)[Translation]Thank you.MichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[Translation]Ms. Brosseau, the floor is yours.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1135)[English]Thank you, Chair.I would like to thank [Translation]Ms. MacLeod and Mr. Morin for their presentations today.[English]I know for members of Parliament, the work we do in the House of Commons is very, very important, but I think we are ever so proud when we can have our constituents and especially youth come up and see us work in the galleries or at committee. I know there's a 40% reduction in the number of seats in the new House of Commons we'll be moving to at a date we'll determine later on, but I think what is important, also, is the accessibility. Right now, if you're in a wheelchair, getting access to the chamber or galleries is very difficult or not possible at all.Could you maybe explain how there will be limited seats but how it will be more accessible to Canadians?Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod: (1135)[Translation]I'll ask Mr. Patrice to answer your question.Ruth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1135)[English]There will be six accessibility seats in the new galleries, so it's quite significant if you compare that to the existing galleries where, effectively, there is a problem.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockCatherineMacLeodRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1135)[English]Approximately how many people come to the galleries yearly? Is that something we keep track of? When we're in the House, we often look up, and they are full during question period, but for other debates, they're not.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1135)[English]It's not a number that is tracked, but as you rightly point out, for question period, particularly on Wednesdays, the galleries get quite full.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1135)[English]Perfect. Thank you very much.MichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.Ruth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English]Thank you.The question about the reduced capacity has been answered. I think those of us who have had the opportunity to tour the facility under construction recognize that the new Visitor Welcome Centre is quite expansive. It's very large. In the building itself, there is not a single hallway that's as wide as any of the hallways that are in Centre Block. There's just less room. All of the offices reflect that, but we still do want to make sure that we maintain access. I think that's probably why you're here. There were some media reports that indicated that things were changing drastically; I'm glad to hear that there will be provisions made.I have a couple of questions. As far as I know, the visitor experience is, basically, internal; it's all inside of the buildings. In Ottawa the weather is unpredictable sometimes, so it's easier to be inside, but has there has been any thought about providing more of a grounds type of tour to give that visitor experience?Second, I understood from my last walk through that—I'm not sure if this is you or the buildings people—the books of remembrance were going to be brought down from the chapel, which I think is a great thing that they'll do. People will come to see those. I know we can't get access to the Library of Parliament while we're under construction, and it is the crown jewel, I think, of these buildings, so that's truly unfortunate. Could you talk about those two things—doing something on the grounds, and making adjustments to make sure people get an experience similar to what they get today?Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod: (1140)[English] I'll start, and I'll invite Benoit to elaborate. I understand that the memorial books will be available in an appropriate setting in the Visitor Welcome Centre following Remembrance Day. The timing may be a little later, but that could be confirmed. It's very important to continue to have a rich experience that helps visitors appreciate Parliament, your role, and the history of Parliament. We work with partners such as Heritage Canada, and they're currently responsible for the outdoor tours. I will ask them to elaborate a little on that in terms of plans going forward. Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeBenoitMorinBenoitMorinBenoit-MorinInterventionMr. Benoit Morin: (1140)[English]As Catherine just mentioned, the Department of Canadian Heritage already does programming on the grounds. They offer guided tours that relate to the history of the site and also they have, as you may know, the sound and light show, for instance. To go back to providing a comparable experience, we will also feature Centre Block in a mini video exhibit in the Visitor Welcome Centre. That showcase will remain accessible, in addition to the Books of Remembrance.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockCatherineMacLeodMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]When a visitor presents himself at the current Visitor Welcome Centre across Wellington Street, are they offered both the guided tour inside and the Canadian Heritage programming? Do visitors know they have both those options?Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockBenoitMorinBenoitMorinBenoitMorinBenoit-MorinInterventionMr. Benoit Morin: (1140)[English]Yes, that information is readily available.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]That will continue. Okay, thank you.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockBenoitMorinGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]I gather the National Capital Commission, which is under Canadian Heritage, provides the tours of the grounds. Is that correct?Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeBenoitMorinBenoitMorinBenoit-MorinInterventionMr. Benoit Morin: (1140)[English]That mandate of the National Capital Commission was transferred to the Department of Canadian Heritage. It used to be with the NCC and it's now with DCH.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]I see. Okay, thank you.Go ahead, Madam Chagger.BenoitMorinBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1140)[English]Thank you for the presentation. I know the conversation will have to take place after this, but I want it to be on the record to say that as we make a decision, to make sure we share information with the public so they are well aware of when they will no longer be able to tour Centre Block. I would assume an influx of visitors will want to try to make it here prior to that time. I have had a lot of requests from my constituents to visit me. I can only imagine what you'll be going through. Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCatherineMacLeodCatherineMacLeodCatherine-MacLeodInterventionMs. Catherine MacLeod: (1140)[English]Thank you.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Go ahead, Monsieur LeBlanc.CatherineMacLeodDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): (1140)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Thank you for the presentation. I think all of us who have constituents or colleagues who have been able to interact with the guides, the staff the library hires to do the tours, will share my experience, which has been that they are a remarkable group of young women and men. It's a credit to the library and to Parliament that we're able to offer that high-quality service. Visitors I've had a chance to talk to are consistently impressed with the people they meet, and you can pass that on to your colleagues. As we were discussing, at this time of year we all have school groups. I met one yesterday from a village called Cap-Pelé in my riding in New Brunswick. A bunch of grade 8 kids were here. It's a very busy time of year, and that's probably a function of why booking these tours and so on has to be done so far in advance. As Bardish said, because the Centre Block will likely be closing, the pressure has probably increased the demand on the services. I like your idea in your presentation of extending the hours, simply because I have the anecdotal impression that a lot of groups would accept to come at a later time of the day or earlier in the day if they could get access. With the restrictions in the West Block that colleagues have talked about, I think that's going to be even more important. As we see what it looks like after a year of operation, I guess you'd have to come back to this table. The funding issue is always of concern, but I think we should keep a very alert sense to the pressure in demand that's going to come and look at whether it's possible to extend the hours even further than what you're planning or to have additional staff during some of those extended hours. I think we miss opportunities sometimes, and it's nobody's fault. It's a reality of Parliament's sitting late in the evenings, the security context. I think we should look for maximum opportunities to increase the access as we gain a sense of the first year of the new operation in the West Block, for example. This is a suggestion.Parliament Hill Visitor Welcome CentreWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English] Thank you. Is there anything else, colleagues? [Translation]The next item is the Parliamentary Precinct long-term vision and plan.The witnesses appearing today on this topic are from the House of Commons. We welcome Michel Patrice, Deputy Clerk of the Administration, Stéphane Aubé, Chief Information Officer, and Susan Kulba, Senior Director of the House of Commons Architecture and Long-Term Vision and Plan Program Management.Mr. Patrice, the floor is yours.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockDominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1145)[Translation]Mr. Chair and members of the Board, thank you.I will start the presentation with the end.We recommend that the move of operations from the Centre Block take place during the winter adjournment period and that the transition of some members' offices from the Centre Block to the Justice, Confederation and Wellington buildings begin this summer.[English] How did we get there? We made this recommendation after a thorough review of the status of the project and an analysis of the risks, both potential and real. Our review included a series of discussions with our partners, particularly Public Services and Procurement Canada, in which the available data and information gathered on the project was closely assessed with the required due diligence. All the partners involved understood that a good measure of healthy challenging had to occur. Our common objective is to ensure that the House of Commons transitions seamlessly to the West Block. After all, this is not a typical office facility; it is the seat of our democracy.I should say that we make this recommendation based on the overall assessment, not out of concern for any particular activity, as it is the sum of all the parts that is important to consider. There are so many moving parts that to assume that everything will go according to plan, leaving no room for error, would not be responsible as the date of the return of the House in September cannot be ignored. Collectively, the partners are all on the same page, meaning that the project is not schedule-driven but operationally driven. The new facilities must function as we expect them to and as they should.[Translation]To update you on the situation, and to assist you in your decision-making, I have divided the presentation into four themes: project overview, construction, technology and security integration—the security portion will be presented in camera—and impact and next steps.The West Block rehabilitation project has taken place over approximately eight years. The condition of the building had deteriorated considerably, and it was high time that such a project was carried out. When it reopens, the building will accommodate the interim House of Commons Chamber and other legislative functions currently housed in Centre Block, while that building undergoes equally essential renovations.[English]In addition, phase one of the new Visitor Welcome Centre will serve as the public access point to Parliament. The scope of the West Block rehabilitation project also included plans allowing for the creation of new space, acknowledging the fact that the facilities would serve not only the needs of the current Parliament, but also of those in the decades to come.The size of the West Block building in 2010 was approximately 15,000 square metres. In 2018, the West Block is now roughly 26,000 square metres, including the courtyard infill and other additions. The Visitor Welcome Centre, phase one, is an additional 5,700 square metres. Together they provide a total area of 31,700 square metres, effectively doubling the space originally available.Technology includes 500 kilometres of copper cabling, 30 kilometres of fibre optic cable, over 10,000 data ports, 360 Wi-Fi access points, a large number of swipe-card access doors and security cameras, and over 100 equipment racks supporting that technology.The general contractor, PCL, has done a tremendous job under the leadership and direction of PSPC. At times this past winter there were more than 1,000 workers on site, working night shifts and weekends. On May 31, the building received special occupancy permits from the City of Ottawa, which means that certain portions of the building are now accessible without the need of protective gear. Major construction is now complete, and many key milestones have been achieved. Other construction activities are still ongoing and are expected to finish this summer.(1150)[Translation]The interim Chamber is currently undergoing technology integration. Landscaping around the building is projected to be completed by early September. In addition, this summer we will begin to identify and correct what we call the flaws. A flaw can be something as minor as a dent in a wall or a damaged piece of furniture that needs repair. More major material or equipment problems may also require adjustments.[English] We are moving into the home stretch. The technology and security integration phase is going full steam ahead. As you may recall from the March update on the project, the House of Commons team started, in parallel with the completion of the construction, to integrate 21st century technology into this 19th century heritage building. Initially the plan was to start the integration after the construction was completed. The importance of these activities and the associated simulation and testing are the key reasons behind today's recommendation. This section of the presentation will be divided in two parts. In public we will cover the status of non-security related technology integration, and in camera we will present the integration status of the facility's security components.In addition to housing the interim chamber, West Block will also have multi-purpose rooms for committee meetings, broadcast and video conference capability, and caucus meetings; an office for the administration staff directly involved in chamber operations; and an office for House officers. The Visitor Welcome Centre will serve as the new secure point of entry for visitors and as an interpretation centre, as you heard earlier, for the Library of Parliament and its souvenir boutique.[Translation]Full testing of the broadcast and audio systems is underway in some committee rooms. The audio system in the interim Chamber is currently being integrated.The expected completion date for this work is between late July and mid-August 2018. At that time, we will conduct a full simulation, including testing and adjustments as required.Broadcast cameras and lighting in the House are also being tested.[English]As you may already know, we held a dry-run exercise in the interim chamber on June 6. This particular simulation was not part of the initial plan, but we felt we needed to gather more data in preparation for this meeting. The main purpose of the exercise was to test the broadcasting system and acoustics. For this test, staff were invited to occupy seats in the chamber and gallery to assess how the equipment would perform in a live situation. In addition to varying degrees of vibration in some of the cameras, the exercise showed that broadcast lights required adjustment. This was to be expected. It demonstrates the importance of testing and reminds us to be diligent. With respect to the committee rooms, the broadcasting system and cameras will also require further testing within the next few weeks to determine whether similar issues still need to be addressed. We will also conduct more simulations from July to September to ensure that the technology remains stable and that the solutions identified are performing as planned in a live environment. I will now present the status of the work on the security front. We will need to proceed in camera.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]Okay.I'm afraid we'll have to suspend for a moment to go in camera for this part of the meeting.[Proceedings continue in camera][Public proceedings resume]MichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]Is there anything further in the presentation?Please proceed.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1215)[Translation]Following our in camera discussion on the current status of the project in terms of security, I will now turn to the operations of the building and all its systems. This section covers security systems as well as other technologies.[English]In camera we talked about the scope and complexity of the security system's features and various components. With respect to the operation of the House, we transmit the proceedings of the House of Commons and its committees to Canadians in real time and support MPs in their roles as legislators. The robust technology that is required to support these activities in a 21st century building necessitates an equally robust series of tests and simulations to ensure the proper functioning of the interim House and its proceedings. At this stage in the project, meeting a mid-September end date would require accelerating the transition and going live without conducting some of these planned tests. We feel that this would increase the risk of a failure to an uncomfortable level. I will repeat: this is not a typical office building.To be clear, moving the operation of the House of Commons over the winter adjournment also carries some risks for Centre Block. As we all know, this building is not in top shape and needs significant repairs and upgrades. However, these needs are a known quantity, and our assessment is that it can continue to operate with the occasional Band-Aid solution should the need arise.Another impact of the recommendation is the potential escalation in construction costs associated with the Centre Block project. Construction cost escalation is defined as change in the costs of material and labour over time. In plain language, it means that if you defer a purchase of goods or services, it is expected that when you decide years later to make that purchase, that price will have gone up. It's not an out-of-pocket expense in the short term; however, failing to take appropriate measures to offset that potential escalation in cost may have an impact toward the end of the project. Accordingly, we have already opened discussions with our partners to implement measures that would prevent this cost escalation.[Translation]First, the West Block project was a learning experience for us. We have discovered and implemented a new approach to integrating technology, which allows us to reduce turnaround time as work progresses.We are also exploring the possibility of initiating further investigation of the Centre Block as originally planned. After discussions with the various parties, I am sure that we will be able to begin the transition of some offices and functions from the Centre Block this summer, so that certain sections of the building can be investigated.[English]I would like to close by acknowledging that the West Block project is one of the largest rehabilitation projects for a heritage building in Canada. This project could not have been accomplished with this level of success without the hard work and commitment of the dedicated project team from the House administration, digital services and real property, and the parliamentary precinct branch of PSPC, as well as other supporting partners. Obviously, it has been challenging, and we have had our share of surprises. Anyone who has lived through a renovation project can relate to that. We are proud of the results. West Block is an architectural gem, and it has the most modern features available. We are excited and look forward to beginning the transition to full operation.With this recommendation, I feel we can confidently move into the final phase of our transition to the interim chamber. Then we will embark on what will be the largest rehabilitation of a heritage building in Canada, the Centre Block.[Translation]My team and I are ready to answer your questions.Thank you very much.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[English]Thank you very much.Go ahead, Ms. Chagger.MichelPatriceBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1215)[English]Thank you for that presentation and the information.Just towards the end, I understand that we could move, but in a phased-out approach that would have members of Parliament moving to other offices in the precinct, and then the chambers could follow once the West Block was fully ready to go, and that would be good.I do wonder about the cost to the public purse. With the phased-out approach, it does actually make sense to phase it out and move a part, and then get some work started, and then move the rest when West Block is done. There's no point in everything having to be around West Block when other offices are available, but it does concern me when it comes to the cost to the taxpayer. Would there be additional costs?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1220)[English] No. That is a concern of ours too, and Public Services and Procurement Canada. We had discussions, and I understand from PSPC that proceeding in this fashion actually negates any construction escalation costs.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1220)[English]There will be no new costs.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1220)[English]There will be no new costs, because there is no delay to the Centre Block project.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1220)[English]Excellent.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1220)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1220)[English]That's good to hear. I think the number that was floated in the media was an estimated $11 million a month because of the delay. That surprised me, because I would think that the project could make up three months of delays over a 10-year period. You'd hope that it could be built back in, so I'm glad to hear that. Certainly there's no sense in rushing this building. While it has its internal problems, which those of us in here are aware of, it still functions. It's still secure. It's still a beautiful building that we can use until the new one is ready. I do have some concerns, though. When the summer recess was the target for the move, you were looking at 11-plus weeks available for the transition. When you go to the winter break, it's five or six, so that's a really compressed timeline. Speaking of making up three months over a year, I'm wondering whether—and this might be something for the House officers to talk about—we should be looking at giving you an extra week in January, and making up that time ourselves in a compressed calendar. Would that be helpful?I don't want us to get into a scenario in which we sit until the 15th of December, for instance, and we're back the last week of January. That's a really compressed timeline, and I want some assurances that we don't make the mistake of.... Does that give you enough time to make the full transition? I guess that's my question. Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1220)[English]I'm confident in terms of the new proposed approach that six weeks is quite sufficient, especially if you take into account that we're going to move some members out of this building starting this summer. That means less will need to be done during that period. What will remain in terms of moving will in a way be minimal compared to an election, let's say, when there are 338 members to move.I'm quite satisfied and confident that this would be sufficient. I'll take note of the suggestion, and should we feel we're a week short, let's say, we'll have opportunities to come before the board in the fall to ask for that. That being said, I'm quite confident, and my team is also very confident, that six weeks is more than sufficient. Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1220)[English]Okay. I assume we will be coming back to the board again in December. I can't see, if we're close now, how we wouldn't be ready for that. Will we have another go or no go meeting in December or November, or this is it?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1220)[English]I don't feel that it would be necessary. I think if you approve this recommendation, that will be sufficient. Obviously we'll update you during our board meetings in the fall as to how it is unfolding.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1225)[English]Thank you.MichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]You'll also tell us how the various tests are going, I presume.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1225)[English]That's right.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Thank you very much.Go ahead, Monsieur...Rodriguez. It's easier to say in French.MichelPatricePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[Translation]I apologize, sir.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1225)[Translation]Good afternoon, everyone.Personally, I see this rather as a progressive move that is starting now.I have had the opportunity to visit the offices that are available now, three or four times. We were there together last week. We made a plan for the move and it should start now. I assume that everyone is going to do the same thing.For example, we know that there are 11 members and eight ministers here. As for the 11 members, we have already decided which offices they will occupy. The same goes for the ministers. It’s all ready now and we are waiting for the offices that we visited to be renovated.For me, the move starts now and finishes when the rest of the Centre Block moves. This is a responsible and realistic process that is saving a lot of money in this case. After the summer, no one will be left here. We will all have moved, except the officials.Are there other services that could also be moved in the meantime? I have no idea, but it could be printing services, for example. However, other things can also be done progressively so that we end up—Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1225)[Translation]That is exactly part of the analysis that we are going to do on the administration offices, to see what we are able to move out of the building. The important thing for us is to keep administration services that are tied to the work of the Chamber close to it.We are going to conduct that exercise too, on the same basis as you are going to look into the offices for your members.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1225)[Translation]Okay, thank you.MichelPatriceGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[Translation]Ms. Brosseau, you have the floor.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for your presentation and your recommendation.[English] I wanted to know more about training. We have amazing security guards on the Hill, and we have the RCMP on the outside. This is a gradual move that we'll be starting over the summer, so could you maybe explain a little bit more about the training that would go on? How would the PPS be able to get into the building and start making sure they're ready for December and January?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba (Senior Director, Architecture and LTVP Program Management Directorate, House of Commons): (1225)[English] When we bring a new building online, PPS are the first occupants of that building. They bring all their forces through the building, and they do exercises and they familiarize themselves with the facility, so that by the time we actually bring any other occupants in, they're fully knowledgeable about the building. They have their operating procedures down pat, and they're ready to function fully before we bring anybody in.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1225)[English]In the new building we have 300-and-some cameras. How many security cameras do we have in this building?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockSusanKulbaGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]This is a question that we would discuss in camera, so to speak. Ruth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1225)[English]Okay.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Would you like to save that for another time, or would you like us to go back in camera?Ruth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1225)[English]No, no; sorry. I want to talk about sitting late, at this time of year, at the end of session. One area where we've seen changes over the last few years is in the number of younger parents in the House of Commons. I know that this building is going to have a room dedicated to parents, with change tables and bathrooms. Is that something that will be happening?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba: (1225)[English]Yes, the West Block will have a family room quite close to the chamber for that type of activity. There's a meditation room in the West Block as well.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1225)[English]Thank you.SusanKulbaGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1225)[English]Thank you very much.Anything else, colleagues, on this before I ask if you wish to...? I guess I'll ask you now. Do you wish to accept the recommendation? Is it agreed to accept the recommendation? Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: It's agreed. Okay.The next item is the committee's annual report. Colleagues, at tab 6 you have before you a letter from the chair of the Liaison Committee, Ms. Sgro, who wishes to inform the board that the Liaison Committee recently adopted and presented to the House its latest annual report on committee activities and expenditures for the 2017-18 fiscal year. Ms. Sgro submitted a copy of the report to the board, and as well indicated that she would be available to meet at a future date if the board so desires.By the way, I should thank the presenters for the last item.(1230)[Translation]Pursuant to Standing Order 121(4), the Board of Internal Economy shall cause to be tabled in the House an annual comprehensive financial report, outlining the detailed expenditures of every committee.Since June 2014, according to established practice, the annual report of the Liaison Committee is approved by the Board and tabled by the Chair, in order to comply with the requirements of the Standing Order.[English]Accordingly, if the board is in agreement, I shall present the attached report to the House as the board's report, pursuant to the standing order.Are there any comments about that, or questions? Is it agreed?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: That's agreed, then.[Translation]We will now deal with the annual report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2017-2018. Our witness is from the House of Commons. He is Pierre Parent, Chief Human Resources Officer. Thank you very much for being here, Mr. Parent.Please go ahead.Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2017-2018Committee Activities and Expenditures, April 1, 2017 - March 31, 2018House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentParliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent (Chief Human Resources Officer, House of Commons): (1230)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.As Chief Human Resources Officer, I am responsible for providing the Board of Internal Economy with an annual report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment.I would therefore like to present the third annual report, which covers the period from April 1, 2017 to March 31, 2018. As you must know, the policy was adopted by the Board on December 9, 2014, and applies to members and House officers as employers, their employees, and employees of research offices. Paid and unpaid interns and volunteers are also covered by the policy.[English] During this period, we processed 35 cases. Of those, 28 were inquiries only, while seven were formal complaints. Three cases were formally investigated; one was substantiated, one was partially substantiated, and one was not substantiated. Two cases were resolved outside the policy, and two cases were deemed not receivable as the complaints did not meet the policy's definition of harassment. Here are some observations for this year.Members of Parliament are contacting us more and more for preventive advice, which is good news. Before addressing issues, they call or email us to ask us about best practices, help, and assistance. Members are also contacting us for training sessions. Actually, there's one taking place tomorrow with four offices, so the person is actually travelling there today. These are training sessions on harassment prevention for the employees. Training is one of the great prevention tools in the matter of harassment, and multiple in-class sessions were provided this year. As for the board decision of March 1 making in-class sessions mandatory for all members, over 300 members have attended the course called “Strengthening a Culture of Respect—From Awareness to Action”. A session intended for members' staff is also being developed and will be offered in the fall of 2018.[Translation]The online training is also a good tool, and I am pleased to report that, as of March 31, 687 people had reported having taken the training. It was a voluntary statement.I am ready to answer any questions the members of the Board may have.Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2017-2018House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1230)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Parent.Mr. Strahl, you have the floor.PierreParentMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1230)[English]Thank you, Monsieur Parent. Based on what you've told us in terms of how many inquiries are coming, as you said, there's expansion, and people are contacting you more often. Is your level of support in staffing and so on sufficient to meet the needs of the members and staff who are contacting your office?Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2017-2018House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1230)[English]Right now it is not quite sufficient, but I've received the go-ahead for one person to come on board in two weeks, and we'll have two others in the coming months, because of the volume. These numbers don't necessarily show the work that's being done behind the curtains. For instance, we're calling some of these informal cases “inquiries”, but some of these inquiries require more hours than some of the formal complaints do. There's a lot of work involved, and staff usually assigned to other HR duties within the administration are now focused on some of these cases. I'm talking about, for instance, conflicts, HR issues that may raise a claim of potential harassment, but it's more of a labour relations issue, so we become involved from that perspective. Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2017-2018House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1235)[English]Thank you.PierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[Translation]Go ahead, Mr. Rodriguez.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1235)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Parent.Mr. Speaker, as whip, I have the privilege of working with Mr. Parent on a very regular basis. He and his team provide us with excellent service, particularly in the case of the training that was taken by all MPs and ministers, including the Prime Minister.Mr. Parent, the #MeToo movement has brought about a structural change, which was needed and which shook things up in many respects. How did you greet this impact? How does it translate into the way people approach you or use your services? How have things changed?Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2017-2018House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1235)[Translation]Thank you for your question.The #MeToo movement hit us somewhat belatedly. It started in society in general in October, and hit us around January.There are requests and complaints, but basically it shows that MPs in general need structure and advice on human resources management. We are studying ways to support them that are different from what we used in the past. The need for advice on human resources management is increasingly evident because of the sensitive nature of these issues, especially when they start to get media coverage.As I said in my report, there is now the prevention aspect. Some MPs call us to report that there is a problem in their office. Without any complaints, they see that something is going on and would like us to advise them to solve the problem.There were no such requests before the #MeToo movement.Annual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2017-2018House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1235)[Translation]Okay. So there is a definite benefit to the proactive aspect of things. People are learning and better informed. They are also able to act earlier, which is very good.Thank you.2017-2018 Year-end Financial ReportAnnual Report on the House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing Harassment for 2017-2018House of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentPierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[Translation]Are there any other comments or questions? I see that there aren't.Thank you very much, Mr. Parent.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1235)[Translation]Thank you.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1235)[English] The next item requires us to go in camera again. We'll suspend for a few moments in order to do that. It's on employment documents for employees of members of Parliament.[Proceedings continue in camera] PierreParent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0071st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, May 24, 2018Le jeudi 24 mai 2018Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTMay 24, 2018CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 007 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 007 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 007 (Version officielle)007240520182018/05/24 11:20:00House Of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE142GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1115)[English] This meeting of the Board of Internal Economy is called to order. Good morning. The first item we have is the minutes and business arising from the previous meeting. Are there any comments or concerns about the minutes or any business arising from them? Hearing none we'll move on to the second item, the modernization of policies in the “Members' Allowances and Services Manual” and bylaws of the board. Presenting from the House of Commons we have the Chief Financial Officer, Daniel Paquette, and also the Deputy Chief Financial Officer, José Fernandez.Mr. Paquette.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette (Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons): (1120)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.[Translation]Last December, I appeared here to propose a number of policy changes, which you then approved. I am back today to talk about our efforts to continue modernizing members' policies so that we can be better placed to assist members in carrying out their parliamentary functions. I will first present a series of proposals to modernize members' travel policies, and then, a proposed change to the end-of-year deadlines.[English]The House administration recognized that members' parliamentary function entails long workdays and extended periods away from home. These requirements have led members to express their needs for changes to travel policies for themselves, their employees, and their immediate family. The House administration has also reviewed the report from the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and took into consideration the recommendations for possible amendments to the travel points system that would encourage members' families to reunite with the members.We have also consulted with various members and House officers to get a good understanding of the challenges we were asked to address. The presentation today will also follow up on the board's December 7 request to clarify the definition of “designated traveller”.[Translation]After studying all the information we've compiled, the House administration proposes the following changes to the members' policies and by-laws on travel. The purpose of these changes is to ensure that all members receive the necessary resources to travel for their parliamentary functions.[English]The proposed amendments seek to promote a family-friendly environment for members of the House, enhance the support provided to members in the discharge of their parliamentary functions, clarify certain elements to increase members' policy understanding, and allow them to optimize the use of their resources.The travel points system was introduced to ensure that all members have equal access to the travel resources no matter the size or location of their constituencies. It was also intended to respond to members' needs by providing resources to their employees and to immediate families. These travel resources are not only used by members, but they are also used by their designated travellers and their dependants. Today nearly half the members are parents of dependent children, and the travel resources required to maintain a balanced family life are creating pressures on members' travel allocations.Currently half a point is deducted for each round trip taken by a member's dependant under the age of six and a point for each round trip taken by other authorized travellers. Our first proposal is to increase flexibility for the travel of younger dependants. We recommend that no points be deducted for the travel of dependants under the age of six nor for dependants with disabilities. One travel point would continue to be deducted for each round trip taken by other eligible dependants. Additionally, we've proposed to allocate additional regular points to members with more than one dependant of the age of six to 20. To alleviate the pressures on the travel resources of members whose families are larger than the Canadian average, the proposal would be to have eight regular points allocated for each additional dependant who is between the ages of six and 20. [Translation]Given that no travel points will be deducted from dependants with disabilities, or dependants under the age of six, no additional points will be allocated to them.Furthermore, no additional points will be allocated to dependants between the ages of 21 and 25, because our data on the use of points does not show that this age category is putting a strain on members' travel resources.[English]On another matter, there is one additional element we are also looking to update to further clarify the eligibility of dependants for using members' travel resources. For each dependant who is in the student status category, we recommend that the members also provide at least annually the name and location of the educational institution at which the student is enrolled. We believe these amendments to the travel policies will foster a more family-friendly environment in the House to support members in the fulfillment of their parliamentary functions, and by encouraging their families to use travel points to reunite with them.[Translation]The following proposal concerns designated travellers. During the December 7, 2017, meeting, the board said that it needed more clarity around the definition of designated travellers. The scope of this definition has changed over the years to adapt to members' evolving needs and realities. (1125)[English] To clarify the current definition, the House administration is proposing the following wording for the definition of designated travellers: Members may designate one person as a designated traveller to support them in their parliamentary functions. A designated traveller is typically the spouse or partner of the member. Members may not designate their employees or another member who is not their spouse or partner. Another proposal relating to the designated traveller is the current one-year declaration rule. Currently, members must declare the name of their designated traveller, which remains in effect for 12 months or for the duration of the Parliament, whichever is shorter. Since members' situations and needs can evolve during this period, we recommend adding a provision to allow the chief financial officer, upon receipt of a special request, to permit a change in the declaration of designated traveller sooner, under certain circumstances, including death, divorce, or other significant life events. [Translation]The following policy change broadens the scope of travel authorized as members' regular travel. According to the current policy, regular travel is defined as travel between Ottawa and one's constituency. However, members regularly travel both within their constituencies and to large, neighbouring cities for their parliamentary functions, and often rely on the support of their staff.The current practice consists in using special points for this kind of travel, which puts a strain on both the travel allocation and the ability to carry out certain parliamentary functions. [English] Therefore, we propose to expand the definition of regular trips to also include trips within the member's constituency and travel to the member's provincial or territorial capital. This means that all travel within the constituency would use regular rather than special points. Members may still use 25 of their points for special trips, which are trips in Canada other than those that are covered by the newly expanded definition of regular trips. Members would now be provided with improved ability to travel within their constituencies, to and from Ottawa, and elsewhere, to discharge their parliamentary functions. Another recommendation concerns family reunification. We want to clarify the policy's intent to specify the time and place in which reunification takes place. We recommend that a new guiding principle specify that the family reunification typically occurs while the House is in session, either at the member's secondary residence or another location where the member is exercising his or her parliamentary functions.[Translation]Finally, we are proposing to specify that authorized travellers can use travel points to join members travelling in their capacity as ministers, but only in two circumstances: First, if members are simultaneously carrying out a parliamentary function, and, second, when the House is sitting and the members' combined functions don't allow them to return to their principal residences. [English]Finally, given all the changes occurring in the travel industry, we are putting forward recommendations concerning additional eligible travel expenses. One recommendation would include class of travel, while a second covers pre-approval of travel programs. A third recommendation considers lawful alternative commercial accommodations or transportation services. The fourth recommendation concerns in-flight wireless Internet.Regarding the class in which members are authorized to travel, we recommend specifying that members and their authorized travellers may use the most economical transportation available, regardless of the class of travel. To be more specific, members and their authorized travellers must travel at the class that they are entitled to, unless a higher class of travel is available at lower class fares. Members are encouraged to book such flights through our members' travel services, since doing so offers numerous benefits, such as substantial savings for the flight costs, corporate flight pass, and accident and other travel insurance. Concerning the pre-approved travel programs, lawful alternative accommodations and transportation services, and the wireless Internet during travel, we propose to allow such costs to be charged to the member's office budget with supporting documentation. [Translation]These changes will enhance members' abilities to travel both within their constituency and to their corresponding provincial or territorial capital, which will allow them to better serve their constituents. The changes would also simplify the family reunification principle to provide better understanding and allocation of the resources so that members can be together with their families.(1130)[English] Before I go to questions on these changes, I would also like to take the opportunity to speak briefly on the other proposal, to amend the year-end timelines for June 30 to submit previous-year claims. To alleviate time pressures related to current processes for submitting previous year claims, we recommend that the chief financial officer be empowered to establish the date by which all accounts relating to a given fiscal year must be received in order for them to be eligible for reimbursement. This would allow members more flexibility to submit claims from the previous fiscal year against the current year's member's office budget while still respecting the prior year's limits included in the members' policies.[Translation]This change would optimize resources by offering members and staff more flexibility. It would also improve the efficiency of the claim process, and prevent members from having to pay out-of-pocket expenditures that would have been admissible.Mr. Speaker, I hope this presentation clearly shows that the recommendations support an environment that is beneficial to both families and the House, facilitate members' understanding of the policies, and enhance the House administration's ability to assist members in their work. I will be glad to answer any questions the board members may have.House of CommonsMembers' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Paquette.Mr. Rodriguez, the floor is yours.DanielPaquettePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Chief Government Whip): (1130)[Translation]First of all, I have a comment, and then, a very brief question.My comment is more along the lines of praise, because I wish to thank you, Mr. Paquette and Mr. Fernandez, as well as your team. I think that you have managed to assess the members' needs in terms of their families, generally speaking, because we are all members, and we all have families. You have also managed to assess our needs as parliamentarians, in terms of travel. On behalf of the members and ministers of the Liberal caucus, I wish to acknowledge your sensitivity to these issues, and thank you for it.My question is very brief. It only concerns the last part of your presentation, since I think we all agree on the first part.When you set a date for members to submit all of their receipts and claims, do many members submit them only after the financial year is over? Do many of them still have unsubmitted claims at that time, and end up paying their expenditures out of pocket? Is this rather uncommon?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[Translation]We currently have about 100 of such claims, which we end up denying. Many people understand the reimbursement policy, so we aren't aware of the number of unsubmitted claims.Some members did agree to pay out-of-pocket expenditures related to their parliamentary functions.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1130)[Translation]Thank you.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English]Mr. Strahl.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1130)[English] I have several questions. I don't know how we want to do this, but maybe I'll just start at the recommendations page and roll through some of the concerns or questions I have. Point 1a says “no point is deducted for dependants with disabilities”. What definition is used to define disability? Is that on the word of the member? Is that a diagnosis from a medical professional? Is it eligibility for the disability tax credit? What are you using to define a dependant with a disability?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[English]There is already a definition of disability in our guidelines and our policies, which is supported by our CHRO. I am sure that it is based on some of the other examples you've provided here, so it's not a guestimate; it's really based on a definition.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1130)[English]That's defined. Thank you.Under 2c are eight additional points for each additional dependant between the age of six and 20, and that was for more than one.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[English]That's right.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1130)[English]Are those eight points assigned specifically to said additional dependant, or do they simply go into the member's greater pool and they can be used for whatever purpose the member wishes, and the fact that the member has more than one child gives the member more travel points?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English]Before you answer that, I've asked our Director of Human Resources to see if he can get the definition of disability for you during the meeting. Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1130)[English]Thank you.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1130)[English] I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought. What was the question?MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English]Are the additional eight travel points assigned to a specific dependant, or do they simply go into a larger pool for a member who has more children?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1135)[English]The intent was to put it in the general pool, but to monitor to make sure that there is usage for family reunification. It was not going to be a hard control in monitoring. At this point, the members who will be getting these extra points have identified the need to use them for this purpose. If there was to be any kind of other use, we would bring it to the attention of the board.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English]Regarding the designated traveller, dependants.... Did you look at any other restrictions? We have employees and not another member. Were there other cases where there were concerns raised, such as people choosing an employee of a registered party or things of that nature, or were those not really explored?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1135)[English]We haven't really dug into a lot of detail. It hasn't been an issue. The designated travellers are disclosed on the site. The intent that the designated traveller is the spouse or partner is respected at this point, in all cases.If there's a need to have additional restrictions, we are open to adding those to the list.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English] As for 3b, I assume that the chief financial officer would come back to the board when they have developed the policy and the review process. It says here on 3b to allow the chief financial officer to formalize the process to review. Would that come back to the board, or are we giving our authority today to allow him to develop the policy that we will be bound by?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1135)[English]I think the intent was to allow the steps to do this. It's really just the steps of which form would be submitted and identifying the life events that would allow for a change within a shorter period of time.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English]Okay.DanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1135)[English]Typically, it would be the significant life events that would warrant the need to change the designated traveller.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1135)[English]Okay.In point 5, on family reunification travel, I have a concern about the provision—both for members of Parliament and ministers and parliamentary secretaries—that this is somehow restricted. I know it's travel principles and not a policy, but as was indicated at the beginning of this presentation, we don't go on holidays on June 25. Members in all parties carry out duties not only in their ridings, but across the country. Certainly ministers and parliamentary secretaries do when the House is not in session. I would have a concern that we be careful that we not eliminate the ability of members to conduct their business, at times with their families, during the summer or winter breaks, or on break weeks. That's a concern.Also, allowing financial management or the House of Commons to make a judgment call that the combined duration of parliamentary and ministerial duties did not allow the member to return home.... I think it should be at the discretion of the member whether or not their schedule...it's better, for their family or themselves, to have their family travel with them. We're not the party that currently has to worry about ministers and parliamentary secretaries, but their primary function is still as a member of Parliament. Even though they might be carrying out operations or business for the Government of Canada as a minister of the crown, I think we should be very careful that we are not discouraging them from maintaining their family relationships, and we are allowing that travel to occur without undue restrictions.I do have a concern about both of these sections talking about when the House of Commons is in session, and for discouraging ministers and parliamentary secretaries from using their parliamentary travel points as members when they are also doing ministerial or parliamentary secretary work.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1140)[English] On the first point, we had a clarification of a question we had from another member yesterday. The House is in session from the Speech from the Throne, or when there's a prorogation or a writ, so what it includes is a lot broader.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]Okay. DanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1140)[English] It's not when the House is sitting; it's when the House is in session. I can clarify from that perspective.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]Got it.DanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1140)[English]The idea here of asking the members to identify the parliamentary function or the limitations is that the guiding principles do exist for travel, and this allows us to ask the member to provide us with that explanation. We never challenge it. Yes, it is the member's prerogative in terms of what a parliamentary function is and all that. This way here, we know that we can document our files and make sure that we, or my staff who process the claims, have the information to support the claims and the payments.The idea here is that unless there's something really unusual, our fundamental principle is not to challenge the member but to make sure that we document the files so that we have everything to support the payment, respecting the principles.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]Thank you for that clarification. I apologize for the misunderstanding there.Finally, I would just ask if you have surveyed members or would consider surveying members on this. I know that many members have raised the number of travel points as a concern for family reunification. I would submit to this group that dividing out and reporting on the travel costs of a dependant is actually more of a disincentive to travel than is the travel points system. I think we should consider whether that has been a good innovation or not to have an MP's children's specific travel costs. It is, quite frankly, a target for media scrutiny. When the year-end reports come out, that is one of the things, i.e., whose dependants have travelled the most with a member. I think that does more to discourage it than the points system or anything like that.Perhaps that's for us to consider in future business. We all want transparency and accountability. I'm quite happy as a member of Parliament to take on all of that responsibility for my dependants, and my designated traveller even, but I know that it hasn't been the practice the last couple of years. I would just flag it. I've talked to a number of members who hesitate to travel with their families, even when they probably should, because they are targeted for doing so.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1140)[English]We're hoping that the additional emphasis on family reunification in policies will help members alleviate that concern. But yes, we do understand. It was brought to our attention. We can look into maybe other options at another point to address that.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Thank you, Mr. Strahl.Ms. Bergen.DanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]Thank you.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1140)[English] Thank you.I have just a couple of points. My colleague, Mark Strahl, actually mentioned a lot of what I was going to mention.I think the reason we want to make changes and make some of these things more, as we said, family-friendly is that we want to attract good people, including women, to politics. We want them to feel that their lives will not be completely disrupted and that they won't be isolated from the people they love. I would just say that we're fixing some of the rules so that it's easier. However, I think that what we're doing is still making it so that people—as you said, Mark—are still thinking that maybe they shouldn't have their family member come. In the case where maybe they're individuals who aren't married or who don't have a partner and maybe their children are grown, they also need to have some support from family and people they love. I'm not sure how we address that so that this system isn't abused, but I think that in the spirit of what we want to accomplish, maybe we need to give thought to how we help people to be able to be supported and do the job, and it's not just directly their immediate children or family members. That's something that we can maybe think about.With that in mind, I am wondering why we need to define the designated traveller as typically the spouse or partner of the member. I know there have been previous times where a single person maybe has made a parent a designated traveller. I think that's happened. I just wonder if there is a reason why we want to say that it has to be spouse or a partner. That's my one question.Then, back to my original point, I would still say that when ministers or parliamentary secretaries are out doing their jobs, that is a parliamentary function. I understand that you're saying that we're just going to ask them. However, there have been actual cases where ministers have been given a lot of problems because they brought their children on a trip, and they apparently weren't given the correct definition of “parliamentary travel”. I'm still concerned about that. I think that, again, in the spirit of what we're trying to do, we need to either change the rules so that it makes your job easier.... However, if the minister or parliamentary secretary is actually travelling with their portfolio, that is parliamentary work. They are a member of Parliament. I think we need to clarify that.Thank you.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1145)[English]With regard to your first question about why it's the spouse or partner, I guess by using the word “typically” we know that there are going to be exceptions to this. Looking at the history of what a designated traveller has been—and we really have gone back—there was a point when there were various categories, and those categories were streamlined to family members or spouse. We went to the term “designated traveller” to avoid the reference just to “spouse” and to not be as general. It's always been related to the immediate family, though. We stayed within the frame of the history of the designated traveller process, so we thought we had addressed a bit of that concern by making it clearer while offering the options of special circumstances that may need to be accommodated here or there. If the board members here feel that we need to address it further, we can definitely take a look at it.I think the responsibility for making sure that what the ministers do is part of their parliamentary function is well understood, and we can try to address it in the application of what's here. If we feel that it's not working well, we'll come back and make sure that we streamline this even better so that it's well understood in clarity and not just in application.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English] I wonder, then, if we can look at this list of recommendations because it seems that there are some concerns regarding numbers 2, 3, and 5. Before we go to those, is it the view of the board that it wants to accept recommendations 1, 4 and 6?Some hon. members: Agreed.Hon. Geoff Regan: Let's go back just for a moment to whether we need to set the others aside or what we need to do with them.With regard to number two on the travel points allocation and the question of the eight additional points and so forth, Mr. Strahl, both you and Ms. Bergen had concerns about that. Is it your view that we need to set that aside, or is there some other approach you see us taking?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1145)[English]I believe the answer I received satisfied my concerns about that. I am assured that members won't simply be using these points for their own travel, but that it will be for their family members.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English] Okay, thank you.Then let's go to 3a, where it says “maintain the current definition and clarify that the designated traveller is typically the spouse or partner of the Member;” Do members wish to proceed with number 3 without “a”, or leave it for now and consider this in the future? What's the will of the board in relation to number 3? Is it okay as is it for the moment and we'll come back to it?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1145)[English]I don't know why we have to add it. I'm not sure what the purpose is. Unless there's been a reason, why are we adding it?I don't know what everyone else— Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]Well, unless there's agreement, obviously we don't proceed with it. It sounds like your view would be that we not proceed, at least for now, with number 3, and then if the board became satisfied that it did wish to do that, it could do so in the future.Mr. Paquette, is any clarification necessary on that?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1145)[English]It was here to help with clarity for the board members. We're open to suggestions and to move forward accordingly.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Okay. Let me just ask whether 3b and 3c are acceptable. I'm seeing yes on that.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquetteMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1150)[English]Yes.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English] I think we will set aside 3a, and it would not go forward for now at least. If the board wishes to go forward with it later, that's fine.We're on to number 5.We had, first of all, the question of “is in session”. Of course, there's the parliamentary definition of what I think they had in mind here, which does cause some confusion. If we go forward with this, that can be addressed in the wording of the changes to the bylaws, of course—Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1150)[English]Yes.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]—to be very clear. Other than that, is number 5 acceptable? Do members wish to proceed with number 5?Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentDanielPaquettePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1150)[English]Yes.Members' Allowances and Services ManualMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[English]Okay, then, I guess we have clarification of which recommendations are accepted by the board, and we can go on to the next item.[Translation]The next topic is the House officers' expenditures disclosure reports. The main presenters are again Mr. Paquette and Mr. Fernandez.Mr. Paquette, the floor is yours.House officersPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1150)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.[Translation]I will now take the time to ask the board to approve the templates of the House officers' expenditure reports, which will have to be published.[English]The publication of House officers' expenditures disclosure reports reflects the board's ongoing commitment to increased transparency and accountability.[Translation]Your approval of the templates of these reports of officers' expenditures in carrying out their parliamentary functions is one of the most important aspects of publishing these reports.[English]At its meeting on June 8, 2017, the board approved disclosure of expenditures for the Speaker and the other presiding officers, opposition leaders, House leaders, whips, national caucus chairs, national caucus research officer, and members who were former prime ministers. The first House officer expenditure report will present a summary of expenses by category, and will cover the period of April 1, 2017 to March 31, 2018. The summary report to be disclosed in June will include for each House officer, their name, caucus, role, and the period of time in which they held the role for that particular fiscal year. The report will also include for each House officer, the total expenses by category, so their employee salaries, service contracts, travel, hospitality, and office expenses. Starting in fiscal year 2018-19, expenses will be disclosed on a quarterly basis, within three months of the end of each quarter. The first quarter's House officer expenditure reports will be published by September 30, 2018. These quarterly reports will not only have the summary expenditure reports that I just explained, but will also have the detailed travel expenditure reports and detailed hospitality expenditure reports.[Translation]This graph here shows the templates of the officers' expenditure reports, the detailed reports of their travel expenditures and the detailed reports of their hospitality expenditures. If the board approves the proposed templates, the House administration will publish the officers' expenditure reports, based on the format presented today, on June 30, 2018, at the latest, as scheduled.[English]The publication of this report will benefit House officers by demonstrating the responsible management of taxpayer funds, highlight the board's commitment to transparency and accountability, and build a general public knowledge of House officers.Mr. Speaker, I'm confident that these mock-ups proposed meet the intentions of the board.[Translation]I can now answer the board members' questions.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresHouse officersGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Paquette.Mr. Rodriguez, the floor is yours.DanielPaquettePabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much.How do we take a change of mandate during the year into account? When there is a change in officers of the House, how are the expenditures accounted for? Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1150)[Translation]The expenditures are charged to the officer in office. All expenditures accumulated before the change in officer are charged to the person who was in office at the time. Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1150)[Translation]So, the expenditures are charged to the person in office?Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1150)[Translation]Yes.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1150)[Translation]In any given year's report, there can be two chief government whips.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1150)[Translation]Yes. That is why there is a category to determine when officers were in office in any given financial year. We know if things have changed during the year.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1150)[Translation]How is it different from a member's expenditures report?Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1150)[Translation]It's very similar, but perhaps has slightly fewer details. Officers don't have the same operating expenditures as constituency offices, which advertise at the level of [English] House officers, ten percenters,(1155)[Translation]and so on. These categories don't exist because there are no expenditures of this nature.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1155)[Translation]So, all expenditures, without exception, are charged to the officers. For example, if the chief of staff or those organizing a special caucus make expenditures, these expenditures will be listed under the officers' name.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1155)[Translation]Expenditures are charged to the office held by the officer. They are part of the expenditures required for carrying out a support function in Parliament.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1155)[Translation]Okay, thank you.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]Mr. Strahl.PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1155)[English]Perhaps the whips have the most concerns here.There are a number of functions and budgets that are captured under the whip, and I know there are perhaps some changes coming forward on this, but for instance, for the entire official opposition operation, the technology fund comes under the whip's budget.Is that laid out in the reporting, all that this covers? Pablo mentioned special caucus meetings, etc. We provide monies to the national caucus chair for different things, but that would all be reported back under the whip's budget. Is that correct?Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestDanielPaquetteDanielPaquetteDaniel-PaquetteInterventionMr. Daniel G. Paquette: (1155)[English]The national caucus chair is a separate group that would be reflected in a separate report for that responsibility.For the other piece, we're presenting total expenditures by category for the role. The actual breakdown of the nature of the budgets is in the policy. The policy describes which categories of budget are there. We're not doing the breakdown of each one of those by category in the disclosure.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1155)[English]Okay. Thank you.DanielPaquetteGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[English]Thank you very much.Is it the will of the board to approve this recommendation?Some hon. members: Agreed.Government accountabilityGovernment expendituresMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1155)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Paquette and Mr. Fernandez.[English]Now we're going to continue with constituency office computer standardization, which is the next item. The presenters for this next session will be Stéphan Aubé, Chief Information Officer, and Louis Lefebvre, Senior Director of Strategic Initiatives.GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1155)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker and members of the board.[Translation]We are here to present to you an initiative that the House administration would like to put forward in the weeks to come. Specifically, we want to provide members with a level of service in their constituency offices that is comparable to the one provided to them in their offices here, on the Hill. We want to standardize the PCs, the computer equipment and the software in members' constituency offices to offer them a higher level of service. [English] This will also allow the House administration to strengthen the IT security posture in the offices. We'll also be able to provide turnkey services for support in the constituency offices, which you don't have right now.The ultimate goal is also to enhance the customer experience that you have in the constituency offices. The goal would be that a member's office on the Hill and the constituency office would act as one office. In the constituency offices you would be be able to get the same services that you have here on the Hill for your staff who are in the constituency offices. That's the ultimate goal that we want to provide.[Translation]All of this is now available thanks to the investments we've made in your constituency offices since the 2016-2017 year. The aim of these investments was to improve the quality of the network in the constituency offices.We are now able to offer you remote service. That was our stated objective.(1200)[English]The approach we're proposing for this initiative is to launch a pilot with 60 constituency offices. The choice of the constituency offices would be made in consultation with the whips' offices. That would basically identify the offices that would participate in it.[Translation]By November, we hope to get the necessary feedback from members, and identify their particular needs. If the pilot phase is conclusive and we get positive feedback from the members, we will recommend that all of the constituency offices move forward with this so that it can be implemented before the next election.In the years to come, we want to provide members, following their election, with the computers they will use both on the Hill and in their constituency offices. The life-cycles of constituency office computers will now be aligned with those on the Hill, meaning at the start of elections.[English]This concludes the quick presentation, Mr. Speaker. We'll open it up for questions or any concerns that you have.Constituency officesHouse of CommonsInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Aubé.We will now go to Mr. Rodriguez.StéphanAubéPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1200)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Mr. Aubé, Mr. Lefebvre, thank you for being here.I think that this is a very good initiative. Constituencies face a great deal of challenges, and some face more than others. We will have to make sure that the pilot project includes a mix of urban, semi-urban and rural constituencies.How many computers are we talking about for the constituency offices? Is it all the computers in the constituency offices?Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1200)[Translation]We're trying to provide a maximum of five computers to each constituency office. The type of computer will be determined after consulting with the constituency offices. For example, if members want Surface tablets, standard office computers or portable microcomputers, we will give them those options. The number of computers provided will depend primarily on the number of employees in each constituency office.Constituency officesInformation technologyPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1200)[Translation]Will you take the old computers back?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1200)[Translation]Members will have the option of keeping their old computers. We will meet with the constituency offices, and, depending on how old these computers are and how they are configured, we will give them options on what they can do.As you know, constituency offices do not currently have the same level of service as on the Hill. This is due to the fact that the computers do not meet the standards needed to connect them to the Hill's infrastructure.Constituency officesInformation technologyPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1200)[Translation]Essentially, for the members who will benefit from this pilot project—and everyone else, afterwards—it will be a bit like being in Ottawa, but in their constituencies. We will have the same type of interface. Being in our constituencies will be like being here. We will have direct access. What a great feature.By when will you need the names of the constituencies?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1200)[Translation]If everyone agrees, we would like to move forward with this in the coming weeks. We will probably meet with you next week, because we want to work on this.Constituency officesInformation technologyPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1200)[Translation]Ms. Brosseau, the floor is yours.StéphanAubéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Aubé and Mr. Lefebvre, for your presentations.I think that all of our constituency office staffers will be really excited to participate in this initiative, especially in the pilot project, following the 2019 election.I represent a rural constituency, but it isn't too far from Montreal or Quebec City. We often have problems with our computers, which are tools we need to do our work and serve our constituents.[English] This is going to come into effect after the 2019 election. I'm just wondering, why do a pilot project? I think a lot of the staff would be looking forward to having an opportunity to get better computers and make sure that when we do have problems with our networks or our computers, there is immediate interaction with the IT, which is always great—the phone calls we make with the IT. They would look forward to having somebody come and deal with the problems directly on the computer, like the services we have here in the House. Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1200)[English]As I said, our goal is to start with the pilot because we want to get feedback. Also, we want to learn from that pilot. We want to learn as it relates to the support model because, as you know, we will be supporting you remotely, and we also need to establish agreements with partners across Canada in order to support the different regions. Our goal is to do that in the next six months, and then after that we would plan the work necessary to be ready for the next election. Constituency officesInformation technologyRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1205)[English]A lot of the offices have more than five computers. It doesn't matter where you are in Canada. We sometimes have a lot of volunteers. Why just five computers, and not more?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1205)[English]The number has actually been established on the average number of staff that exist across the different constituencies. You're right that some offices have more than five PCs, so this is why we set the number at a maximum of five. Having said that, the five will be funded from the House administration. If a member chooses to have more PCs with the same approach, they'll be able to purchase more PCs through their MOBs. We would allow constituency offices to have six, seven, or eight if that would be required, as long as over and above five would be funded by the constituency offices.Constituency officesInformation technologyRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1205)[English]There are 60 offices that will be able to participate, I guess. What would be the breakdown by party, and how would that work with the independents, too?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1205)[English]The way we usually do this is we use the proportional representation based on the election. Constituency officesInformation technologyRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1205)[English]We like that.Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1205)[English]That's been the long-standing procedure of how we do this.Constituency officesInformation technologyRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1205)[English]Okay. Thank you.StéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]I would like to clarify one thing. I want to bring the board members' attention to the last point on the screen. It says:If the pilot is successful, we will return to the Board——this would be the administration——as part part of the Main Estimates process in order to ensure full implementation in the remaining constituency offices prior to the new Parliament.Constituency officesInformation technologyRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1205)[English]Yes, sir. GeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]I suppose that could be, theoretically, after the election but it could be before the next election.Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1205)[English]Yes. Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Okay.Mr. Strahl. StéphanAubéMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]Could you remind us what the current arrangement is for members providing computers in their own constituency offices? Are any of them currently covered through the central budget, or are those all the responsibility of the members' office budgets?Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1205)[English]The past practice, sir, has always been that the members, from their own budgets, would be supplying their constituency offices' PCs. This was the past practice.Having said that, the landscape of the IT supply chain, you might say, has changed a whole lot over the years from the small stores now to the large Best Buy stores, so we feel that we would be better suited to support the members, from a cost-efficiency perspective, if we supplied them with PCs directly from the Hill, because we have larger buying power and will be able to help.If they still choose to purchase some of their equipment in their own riding, we will support them. The only impact is the level of service. What we're planning to do is to offer different tiers of services based on the security postures of the equipment being selected by the members, sir. Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]Were the five across both offices or just in the constituency?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1205)[English]This proposal of five is just for the constituency offices—a maximum of five.Constituency officesInformation technologyMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1205)[English]Thank you.StéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1205)[English]Monsieur LeBlanc.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): (1205)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Thank you for the work that you're doing.I completely agree with our colleagues. I find that following the recommendations and the process you've provided has been helpful to us in many respects. My question is mostly on security issues. You've probably dealt with issues that have caused our colleagues concern on a number of occasions in their constituency offices. On the topic of security and data protection, I imagine that these computers contain an enormous amount of private information on the people who come to visit us in our constituency offices.Are your concerns around security, or even vulnerability, going up? It's not just a matter of thinking about specific incidents. If, as the Speaker mentioned, a future internal economy committee should ultimately decide to standardize or centralize the devices, computers and security resources in constituency offices, I hope that these changes will lead to a drop in costs. That would make sense. I hadn't thought of that, since I was focused on the security issue.In going forward with this standardization, depending on the results of the pilot project, and based on your experience, would you say that the level of security and protection will increase?Have we properly understood this?Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1210)[Translation]I don't want to go into detail about the various security issues we face in the constituency offices, but it is definitely one of the main reasons why we want to provide this service. In the last two years, we have spent a lot of time consulting members on their needs, and we have received a good deal of requests. The members want help to be available, directly from their constituency offices, in order to configure, maintain and secure their systems. A number of members even ask us how we can help them at home.They are increasingly on the move, and ask us for access to the House infrastructure. They want to be protected wherever their schedules and annual travels take them. That is why we want to give them this option when they travel to different regions. We want to provide them with a security service in their constituency offices that is on par with the one provided on the Hill. That is one of the main reasons why we want to move forward with these changes.Constituency officesInformation technologyDominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc: (1210)[Translation]Thank you very much.StéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English] We have found that cybersecurity is a concern for numerous parliaments around the world these days.Madam Chagger.Constituency officesInformation technologyDominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1210)[English]Thank you.I would ask if the five computers that are going to be set up in the constituencies moving forward will always be the responsibility of the House and will not be coming out of the member's budget anymore.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1210)[English]That is the approach we're proposing here.Constituency officesInformation technologyBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1210)[English]That would actually provide some consistency in making sure that the MP would be ready to go when there is turnover or whatever the case is.Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1210)[English]That is one of the big reasons, Madam Chagger. Sometimes some of the members have had equipment that has been much older than that of other members. When a member is elected, the process is that they inherit the equipment of the previous member at each election. We will be able now to alleviate all these problems and allow the member to be productive right away. Now the plan would be to life-cycle them at every election. When a new member comes in, they would be productive right away because they have new machines and they won't have to worry about supplying themselves with the PCs in their offices. We'll do that for them.Constituency officesInformation technologyBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1210)[English]That's good because then the MP already has...it's so overwhelming. I can relate because I know the equipment I received on coming into office delayed my being able to provide support to my constituents. The Hill office, however, did have the support and the system. I think this is a great opportunity.Are you suggesting that the lifespan of the computer would be from election to election?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1210)[English]Yes, that's what we're proposing. The normal lifespan for the PCs we use on the Hill from a security perspective is between four and five years. This is why we're aligning this with elections. We know the time now and we can prepare for that. Constituency officesInformation technologyBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1210)[English]There is one thing I would ask, for confirmation and clarification. Does that mean a document that my team in Waterloo is working on will be able to be shared with my team on the Hill without it having to be emailed?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1210)[English] Yes, that's exactly what we're trying to avoid.Constituency officesInformation technologyBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1210)[English]It's a way to bring us into the 21st century. It is a small world, and we need to embrace technology. I think the security concerns are real, and I'm glad that you're taking care of them. I think the pilot project is exactly the way to go. Our country's regional diversity is a reality, so it's important to ensure that rural and remote areas as well as urban centres are able to work with the system. I'm glad that you consulted. Now we can see that we've listened and are acting, but I do think the pilot project is the right way to go to have a second-level approach before we implement it across the board so that we know it is the right approach.I thank you for your work, and I look forward to, I hope, being chosen by my whip.Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1210)[English]Could I just follow up on something that was raised earlier? Just to clarify, among the reasons for proposing a pilot of 60 offices, do they include the amount of resources required and the time required to put this in place, as opposed to, obviously, going ahead right away with 338?Constituency officesInformation technologyBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1210)[English]That's what we want to assess, sir, before we come back with a full implementation. We want to be able to measure the service expectations in the constituency offices, especially in remote regions. We want to make sure that we have the proper contracting vehicle and the proper partners in these areas. If we don't, we can make the necessary adjustments before we go in full, live production.This is a standardized approach in our world. As Madam Chagger just said, the pilot will allow us to learn and make sure that we're ready once we go into production with all the services and all the proper support for the members.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[Translation]Thank you very much.Is it the will of the members of the Board of Internal Economy to approve this recommendation?Constituency officesInformation technologyStéphanAubéPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez: (1215)[Translation]Yes.Constituency officesInformation technologyGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1215)[Translation]Thank you very much.[English]We will suspend for a moment. We have to go in camera to discuss the next item.[Proceedings continue in camera] PabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0061st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, March 22, 2018Le jeudi 22 mars 2018Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTMarch 22, 2018CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 006 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 006 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 006 (Version officielle)006220320182018/03/22 11:20:00v2.0House of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIEChairThe Honourable Geoff Regan421GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1115)[English] Colleagues, this meeting of the Board of Internal Economy will come to order.We will begin with the minutes of the previous meeting. Are there any concerns about the minutes of the previous meeting? Hearing none, we'll go on to the next item, which is business arising from the previous meeting. Is there any business arising from the previous meeting? I'm not hearing any. We'll go on to number three: the parliamentary precinct long-term vision and plan. Presenting this morning we have Stéphan Aubé, Chief Information Officer, and Susan Kulba, Senior Director, Architecture and Long-term Vision Plan Program Management Directorate. They'll tell us who else is with them.Go ahead, Monsieur Aubé.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé (Chief Information Officer, House of Commons): (1120)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll go directly to Susan, who is going to be leading the presentation. I'll be leading the second part.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba (Senior Director, A&LTVP Program Management Directorate, House of Commons): (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We are here today to present you with an update on the vision and the long-term plan, specifically for the West Block.[English]As you recall, we were here in October to provide an update on the progress of the West Block and the visitor welcome centre for phase one. We had agreed to come back in March to update you again and give you an overview of the readiness for occupancy. Today we'll talk a little bit about the context, give you the status update, address some key risks and mitigations, present a high-level move strategy, and conclude with a summary and recommendations. Essentially the transition of parliamentary operations for the Centre Block to the West Block is a historic milestone and it's a complex web of moving pieces. The objective is to move for the fall session of 2018, and a decision on that must be really looked at, given the context of risk. We want to ensure that parliamentary operations are continuous and that there is no interruption. The House of Commons is working very closely with PSPC and their construction manager to maintain momentum and to address risks as they arise. There is still a lot of work to be done. Work is progressing very well, though. We need to always understand that we need sufficient time for testing and for building familiarization once that construction progresses, and time for some IT integration and other systems integration. We have a robust governance with the parliamentary partners and other key stakeholders, and that's helping us to stay focused and to resolve issues as they come.In terms of the status, significant progress has been made. The chamber is nearing completion. You'll see that the carpeting is going in, the chamber gallery seating is going in, construction of committee rooms 1 and 2 is pretty much complete, and IT integration has started there. We have begun the long review process on deficiencies, so that's very good, and you'll see that a number of the offices are progressing to the point where furniture is being moved in.We hope that all major construction will be completed before the rise of Parliament; however, this doesn't mean that the project is finished. We need to address and integrate all the IT and security systems, continue to move furniture in, and correct deficiencies. There is a lot of work and effort associated with that. There are key risks. The chamber remains still the most significant risk at this point. It's a complex room and it has a lot of integration that has to happen. We need to do a lot of testing and simulations to make sure that it will be ready and operational and support the work that you do in the chamber.Other high-risk areas still remain, including committee rooms 3 and 4 some of the smaller meeting rooms, and full integration of doors and posts and security.Lower-risk areas in the building at this point are the offices, the cafeteria, and the visitor welcome centre. They're progressing very well. We're monitoring a couple of other key features, such as the temporary loading dock.We're working very closely, as mentioned, with PSPC to mitigate the risks, and some of that strategy involves prioritization. They're working with us as we identify the key areas where we have a lot of IT integration and security integration, and they're prioritizing those to be delivered such that we can do some overlapping and continue to work and progress quickly. The ongoing monitoring of risk is really important, and we're watching the key milestones. The chamber is scheduled to be delivered and complete on April 3. If risks arise, we're trying to mitigate them; however, as time progresses, it's important that we have the time to do that.The next slide indicates a high-level view of the move. You'll see that starting in July is when we would start moving the desks from the current chamber in Centre Block into the West Block, progressing over the summer, with MPs being ready to move in late August or early September, in time for the fall session. In conclusion, essentially the West Block is a really exciting project, a significant historic renovation, and it will be a fully operational building, a good home for the chamber and the House of Commons over the next 10 years as an interim facility. Everyone is working very hard and doing a fantastic job; however, at this point we're not in a position to recommend a go or no go, as work is still progressing. We would like to recommend that we return to the board before the House rises this summer with a further progress status and make a decision at that time for the go or no go. The other recommendation that we'd like to table is to defer a few items in terms of completion for the fall. Those would be committee room 4, the temporary loading facility, and a few of the small meeting rooms. (1125)Thank you. Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockStéphanAubéGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[Translation]Mr. Rodriguez, do you have a question or a comment?SusanKulbaPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-Mercier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25451PabloRodriguezHon.Pablo-RodriguezHonoré-MercierLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RodriguezPablo_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Pablo Rodriguez (Chief Government Whip): (1125)[Translation]Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you for this presentation.It seems to me that there are quite a few things. I'm taking a look at what's left to do, and at the risk factors. These aren't minor issues either.Someone mentioned that, just because the work is done, doesn't mean that the facilities are ready for use. So, the work might be done, but the facilities might not be ready for use. There could still be security and sound tests to do. As far as acoustics go, I have a hard time hearing people in this room, particularly so today. It's weird, I don't know why it seems worse today. Acoustics are fundamental in our work, because we talk; it's what we do. Sometimes, we talk too much, but we are always talking. We need to be able to understand what our colleagues are saying. I have a comment and a question.Even if I want the work to get done as soon as possible, I hope that we will not rush to do it, because we said we would do it, and it will be done if it's doable and done under the best conditions possible. These conditions may not be perfect, but the security conditions will have to be good. I hope that all the sound tests will be done realistically, so that all rooms are adequately prepared for general use. I don't know how you do these tests, but they should be done when people are in the room.Many elements seem high-risk, especially what is referred to as the integration of all security positions, systems and doors. In my opinion, these elements are absolutely essential.Let me repeat: I hope that we aren't rushing it, because we said we would do it, but that we will do it because we can do it. If we can't do it, we'll take the necessary steps. My question concerns the acoustics, especially because of what's going on today. How do you do these tests? How do you do them to ensure that they simulate real-life scenarios? Can you predict the results, when there will be 338 people in the Chamber, all talking a lot?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba: (1125)[English] I'll address the acoustics question first. Essentially, there are three planned acoustics tests, for various reasons, and they happen at different phases during the project. The first two have been completed. The first one was successful. We're waiting on results of the second test, and the third one is scheduled for mid-April. Further on, once all of the IT integration is complete and the furniture is in, we're going to do full dry-run simulations of a chamber sitting, and we will further refine any requirements that aren't being met at that point.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockPabloRodriguezHon.Honoré-MercierStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1125)[Translation]Mr. Rodriguez, I will add something to your comment.We have the same objective as you. Our goal, our priority, is to provide functional facilities. We want everything to work well, and we want the facilities to be flawless when we re-open them. If we see that there are still risks on the scheduled date, we will tell you about them so that you can make a decision. Our goal for these facilities is certainly functionality. I believe that this building will be magnificent, functional, and that it will meet your needs. Let me add something to Ms. Kulba's comment on acoustics.We hired world-renowned acoustics experts to test the acoustics of the Chamber. We established better criteria than the ones we currently use, and we are trying to apply them. Tests were done in the new Chamber space, but not in the committee rooms. These tests revealed that the acoustics were better than in the current House. We'll have to do more tests when the furniture is installed, but we aren't there yet. That is what we're aiming for, Mr. Rodriguez.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockSusanKulbaGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.StéphanAubéMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1130)[English] Thank you very much for the update.I think anyone who has done a renovation of any building—I did one in my home last year—knows that you rarely finish when you think you are going to be finished. I'm a year past my completion date and still putting up baseboards. I think it is worrying that the go or no-go decision previously was supposed to be this month. The date when we were supposed to be making the decision on whether this was going to happen or not has now been put off until September. I think that's what it says here: “Return to BOIE...and seek 'GO / NO-GO' for September 2018”. We've pushed that back six months now.At Centre Block, obviously things such as routine maintenance and repairs are not being done that otherwise would be done if we weren't leaving the building. However, it's still functional. We are still operating here every day.What is the risk or what is the cost of simply recognizing this is going to take some more time? We are operating on an electoral cycle; you're operating on a building cycle, and I know it's different, but what is the cost to making the call sooner rather than later that this is going to take longer than we thought, and we should do this at the next election?My second question is on the slide on page 8 of my document, the move schedule, which looks at starting next Monday. The party whips will start allocating spaces to Centre Block MPs, who will have to move to other buildings. I hope we are not envisioning a scenario of doing this halfway, whereby we're not moved into West Block but we start moving people out of Centre Block into the Confederation Building. I would hope we are ensuring that the go or no-go decision includes those members of Parliament and cabinet ministers who will be displaced so that they are not displaced in advance of the opening of the new chamber.If I could just get some reassurance on that point, then maybe we can talk about the risk, if any, to simply giving you more time.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English]Before we go to the presenters, I just want to point out two things.The first is that if you look at the recommendations at the bottom of page 9 of the deck, it says, “Return to BOIE before the House rises for summer break....”Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1130)[English]“...and seek 'GO / NO-GO' decision for September 2018”.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English]Exactly. We'd make the decision here in, say, June, about September.The second thing is that according to this document, the earliest of the moves you referred to—of MPs, ministers, and so forth—would be July 2. Under this scenario, obviously nobody moves until the board says we're going forward. Now, Ms. Kulba, would you like to go on with the other answers?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba: (1130)[English]Yes, that's correct.Meeting with whips to do space allocation is just part of the planning exercise. We would just certainly want to be prepared for the decision. Should it go forward, we're ready to do the actual physical move much closer to the summer or September time frame. The next little while really is just about the planning of those moves.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1130)[English]Just so I'm clear, this will be an all-or-nothing scenario, right? We are not going to have a scenario wherein we start moving people to the Confederation Building who aren't going to be in the new West Block. We can get a head start on that. I'm hoping we all go together or we all stay here.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusanKulbaSusan-KulbaInterventionMs. Susan Kulba: (1135)[English]That is correct.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1135)[English]Any scenarios for moving would be brought back here for the board to decide. Currently we're not considering a scenario of moving half the people in or out, but we would certainly not make that decision. We'd make the recommendation to this board, and the members of this board will make the decision on the move scenario based on some recommendations from us.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockSusanKulbaGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]The point is that if we're still going to have this building open, we keep using this building. A voice: That's right.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphanAubéStéphan-AubéInterventionMr. Stéphan Aubé: (1135)[English]As for the cost of the deferral, to your comment earlier, we'd have to put that question back to PSPC. When we come with the recommendations, we could come back and ask for solutions for that, but I wouldn't want to comment on it because it would be linked to the cost of delaying the move.If you want, we'll come with that information at the next meeting. We'll take that as an action.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English] Go ahead, Monsieur LeBlanc.StéphanAubéDominicLeBlancHon.Beauséjour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1813DominicLeBlancHon.Dominic-LeBlancBeauséjourLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LeblancDominic_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Dominic LeBlanc (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): (1135)[English] Thank you, Mr. Speaker.[Translation] Thank you for your presentation, and especially for the good work you have been doing for so long.I have had the privilege of sitting on the Board of Internal Economy for a number of years, and I understand something about the scope of your project and the consequences that would ensue from bad decisions. Thank Heavens, I don't believe that we have made any so far, and it is thanks to your work and your expertise. Thank you.My question is very simple. Mr. Chair, maybe you can answer it; I do not want to appear inappropriate. For example, we talked about moving to the West Block. I know that our colleagues in the Senate will move to Ottawa's former train station. When I talked to them, they told me their concerns, but I don't know if these concerns are warranted, because I don't know if they're up to speed on the details.In your opinion, what will happen if, for example, we decide to move out in the fall, and the Senate concluded that, for its part, for operational and security reasons, it cannot move out? Both Chambers need to agree to move out. As I said—and this is in no way formal information—I know that, just like us, they are discussing the same or other issues. However, they exercise their own due diligence with regard to their facilities. As I mentioned, I've been having informal talks for some time now, and I have concluded that they also have some questions and some concerns. How will we bring the two together? What will happen if they decide that the station and their new facilities are not yet ready to accommodate them, and we move out. How do you see that?Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectSenate and senatorsWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[Translation]Mr. LeBlanc, we collaborate closely with the Senate. The intention is to move out at the same time, or not move out at all. From time to time, the people in the administration correct me, and I am happy that they do so. I will let them bring corrections, if necessary.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectSenate and senatorsDominicLeBlancHon.BeauséjourMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice (Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1135)[Translation]Indeed.We work in close collaboration with Senate authorities. This is a joint project with all partners on the Hill. Our modus operandi is indeed that both Chambers will be moving out at the same time, or not, and we are evaluating the risks together.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[Translation]All right.Ms. Bergen, you have the floor.MichelPatriceCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1135)[English] I guess I'm just wondering about the thoughts of my colleagues. From what I'm hearing—and I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong—the chances of our being able to move in the summer of 2018 are very low. There is still a lot of work to do.Thinking realistically, if we can't move in 2018, would we move in the summer of 2019? If we are two months away from an election, that would be unrealistic as well. There could be changes or there could be movement happening after the next election.I wonder whether we should have a realistic discussion about that. That's one thing I wanted to mention.Second, to Mark's point, again, unless there is even a reasonable expectation that there are going to be changes in the next couple of months before you would come back to us before we rise for the summer, why wouldn't we just make that call now? What's the reason for coming back? I'm just wondering about these two things.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]You're asking the members of the board, but you are also, I think, asking questions to the administration.Go ahead, Michel.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice: (1140)[English] I think we're having a realistic discussion based on a plan and a joint document that we're working on with our partners. Right now we're tracking in a more granular way the various activities and key milestones that need to be achieved for us to be in a position to move in September 2018. Regarding those key milestones, those dates, we're not there yet. For example, with the chamber, they're supposed to be handed over to us on April 3. There are many milestones of that nature that are going to happen in the coming months, and at that point we'll be in a better position, having our data, to assess whether it's feasible. We're not talking about just the construction. For us it's a project in a holistic fashion. It's construction, integration of technology, training, and testing, and it's all going in parallel. Obviously we're now in a tight time frame because we're at the end of the project, and we need our due diligence exercise to make sure the right decision is made and that you get the right advice based on the right information.Then with public works we've been looking at alternative scenarios if that date is not open. We're in discussion, obviously. We're planning in parallel for alternative scenarios. Right now there are two that are on the table, which are basically the Christmas break or summer 2019, before the election, but those discussions are ongoing and parallel. We're trying to achieve the move toward the goal of moving September 2018, but definitely it's our view, and our common view, that we do not put the operation of the House at risk.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]The other thing, of course, is that the decisions we make on this can affect the start of the work on Centre Block, obviously, but I don't think the board's going to feel that should cause us to move until we are confident about West Block being ready for us to operate there fully. I do have a question about your comment about the summer of 2019. It seems to be me that following the election of 2019, assuming that we're in West Block at that point, there's going to be an office of the Speaker, of various House leaders, the whips. Whoever they are, I'm having trouble seeing whether there's a problem that I have to be concerned about because of flux at that time.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockMichelPatriceCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1140)[English]You know what? You're right. I was thinking there would be MPs' offices, but there won't be MPs' offices, will there?A voice: That's right.Hon. Candice Bergen: Then that's fairly consistent. It would be whoever the House leader is, whoever the.... Yes.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Okay, good.Is there anybody else?Go ahead, Ms. Chagger.CandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1140)[English]I just want to thank you for the reminder that it is we together who make the decisions. I think it is quite beneficial that you are coming to us with updates because of the realities of the situation. I would say it's refreshing to be made aware. I have full confidence in the work you're doing and the expertise you offer. I would just make a friendly reminder that if we are close to a date for moving furniture in, you will want to test the acoustics, and if that doesn't go well.... I'm not one to debate hypotheticals, by any means, but I just offer a friendly reminder as a member of the team to make sure that we are aware of the need to test acoustics once all the furniture is in. The reality is that it could go overly well or perhaps be somewhat challenging. Thank you.Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Okay.We're going to move now to a discussion about the precinct and security aspects of the long-term vision and plan, which requires us to go in camera, and also to discuss some legal matters.Before we go in camera, I wonder if there's agreement for a motion as follows:That unless otherwise ordered, each member of the board be allowed to have one staff member present from their office at in camera meetings.Is that agreed?(Motion agreed to)Hon. Geoff Regan: Now we'll suspend for a couple of minutes while we go in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera]Parliament Buildings Renovation ProjectWest BlockBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgDaily adjournmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgStart of sitting day1TRANSCRIPTBoard of Internal EconomyNUMBER 0051st SESSION42nd PARLIAMENTThursday, March 1, 2018Le jeudi 1er mars 2018Board of Internal EconomyCANADA[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]TRANSCRIPTMarch 1, 2018CommitteeEdited Transcript * Table of Contents * Number 005 (Official Version)Official Report * Table of Contents * Number 005 (Official Version)Transcriptions * Table des matières * Numéro 005 (Version officielle)005010320182018/03/01 11:20:00v2.0House of CommonsBureau de régie interneBoard of Internal EconomyBOIE421GeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan (Speaker of the House of Commons): (1120)[English]Good morning, colleagues, and welcome again to this meeting of the Board of Internal Economy. [Translation]I would like to welcome Ruth Ellen Brosseau as a new member to the Board of Internal Economy.Welcome.The first item on the agenda is the minutes of the previous meeting. Are there any comments on that?[English]Are there any comments on the previous meeting's minutes? Some hon. members: No.The Chair: Is it agreed to approve the minutes?Some hon. members: Yes.The Chair: Is there any business arising from the minutes? Seeing none, we'll go on to number 3, harassment prevention in the workplace.[Translation]The floor goes to Mr. Patrice. He will speak to this difficult issue first.HarassmentMichelPatriceMichelPatriceMichel-PatriceInterventionMr. Michel Patrice (Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons): (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.I have been looking forward to this meeting on the harassment prevention program; the topic we are addressing today is timely, even urgent.The past weeks and months have brought to light a number of instances of abusive behaviour that have taken place in the House of Commons over the years. Such behaviour was always unacceptable. Today, it is simply intolerable.[English]No one—not members, nor the people who work for them, nor the employees in the House administration, nor volunteers—should be subject to harassment, bullying, or abuse of authority. I know from our own discussion that you share my views. With your support we will continue to strengthen the harassment framework that is already in place. As important, we wish to ensure that everyone is aware that information and help are available. I will now turn things over to Pierre Parent, chief human resources officer, who will tell you about the harassment prevention program, how it works, and how we can work it even better.Thank you.HarassmentHouse of Commons staffMembers of ParliamentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1120)[Translation]The floor now goes to Mr. Parent.MichelPatricePierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent (Chief Human Resources Officer, House of Commons): (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.Thank you, Mr. Patrice.Accompanying me is Myriam Beauparlant, manager of the Respectful Workplace Program in the House of Commons. Ms. Beauparlant and I thank you for the opportunity to talk to you about the harassment prevention framework in place in the House.First of all, let me confirm our commitment to dealing with any situation of harassment within the organization and to supporting members of Parliament, House officers, research offices and their employees, both in the constituency offices and on the Hill.[English]Providing a harassment-free workplace for everyone in the parliamentary community is our priority and we are proposing additional steps to reach that goal. Today there is a framework in place with different components, which provides members of Parliament, House officers, research offices and their employees, as well as House administration employees with mechanisms to prevent and resolve alleged harassment situations.First, in December 2014 the board adopted the first House of Commons policy on preventing and addressing harassment, which applies to members and House officers as employers, as well as their employees and employees of research offices. Second, in June 2015 the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs adopted the “Code of Conduct for Members of the House of Commons: Sexual Harassment”. It came into effect at the start of this Parliament. It covers member-to-member situations and secures the commitment of members to provide an environment free of sexual harassment. Every member is required to sign the pledge form, and all members have done so. In addition, the House administration policy on harassment prevention and resolution in the workplace has been in place for several decades and applies to all House administration employees. The latest version was updated in April 2015. In all the policies there is a process in place for filing informal and formal complaints, investigating and reporting, appealing decisions, communicating findings, and ensuring that corrective action is taken.[Translation]Under the policy, I have to submit annual statistical reports to the Board; the reports are then made public. As indicated by the two annual reports I have provided to date, 10 cases of harassment were reported in the first reporting period in 2015-16, and 19 in the second period in 2016-17.It is important to note that the report identifies two categories of cases: requests for information and complaints. For example, three of the 10 cases in the first reporting period and six of the 19 cases in the following period were complaints.(1125)[English]The policies emphasize impartiality and confidentiality and so protect the rights of both the complainant and the respondent. It is vitally important that we make sure the person feels safe talking about these difficult situations and that we protect the private lives of the individuals who raise these issues and ensure that both parties benefit from fair due process.What do we do to support this framework and to address issues that arise? During their orientation, members are given information regarding the policy and code and affirm their commitment to supporting a harassment-free workplace by signing the pledge form. As I mentioned earlier, all members of the 42nd Parliament have signed the pledge form. With the launch of the policy, the House administration offered members and their staff access to an informal conflict resolution program known as the Finding Solutions Together program, for which Myriam is responsible.Key to this program is access to Myriam, who is available to offer members and their employees counselling on workplace conflicts, including harassment prevention and, if appropriate, mediation. This program has been used by members and employees in the past two years and has been instrumental in resolving some of these cases as early as possible in the process.[Translation]Another essential service under the harassment prevention framework is training. An online training session was launched in December 2016 to further raise awareness among MPs and their employees about harassment and about available resources. The one-hour training session features short informative sequences, scenarios and questions to provide additional support for harassment prevention.At the end of the training session, participants may self-identify by voluntary reporting. As of January 31, 2018, 647 people reported that they completed the training. As it is available online, this training allows employees to schedule the session whenever is convenient for them and also allows constituency staff to participate.[English]Of course, we also recognize the added value of offering in-person training in a classroom setting. As such, we have been working with an external training expert to develop a three-hour in-class session, which will start shortly. Whips have been very supportive of this initiative and will ensure their respective members are available for the training. We anticipate being able to offer this session to all members before the summer break.We are also developing additional training sessions, and we will be working with the whips' offices to provide further training to all staff, both on the Hill and in constituencies. The Speaker has asked that we provide the necessary support for staff and members and address any opportunities to improve what is currently in place.Consequently, we are making the following recommendations: first, that employees of members, House officers, and research officers, including interns and volunteers, be provided with clear, easily accessible information regarding the code and the policy as part of their orientation, more specifically with their letter of offer; and, second, that the classroom training being developed be made mandatory for members and House officers, and that the training sessions be made mandatory for the employees of members, House officers, and research officers, including, of course, interns and volunteers.Finally, having worked in this field for 25 years, I know that the foundations of our program are strong. That being said, there is always room for improvement.I'm happy to take any questions from the board members.Code of Conduct for Members of the House of Commons: Sexual HarassmentHarassmentHouse of Commons Policy on Preventing and Addressing HarassmentHouse of Commons staffMembers of ParliamentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1125)[English]We'll see if there are any questions or comments from members of the board, after which we'll go to the recommendations in due course.Ms. Bergen. PierreParentCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen (House Leader of the Official Opposition): (1125)[English]Thank you for your presentation and the good work you've done.I do have a question. I am scheduled in, but I haven't taken the course yet. Can you tell us a bit about what's in the course? I'm thinking that for a lot of people, as they're guiding their employees or wanting to get their work done, they want to do it in a respectful way, and sometimes there is a fine line between giving orders or asking somebody to do something and being disrespectful. Can you let me know how we've developed our harassment policy training so that we aren't kind of guessing on that, but that we actually have professionals and best practices and we can give very clear guidelines to our members on what's appropriate and what is not appropriate?HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1125)[English]Yes, I'm happy to report that on Monday morning the Clerk's management group and I test-drove the training. It will address just that in the sense that, as you mentioned, there is a fine line between frustration and harassment and what it constitutes, and what the next steps are for a behaviour to constitute harassment. We've built that training session to basically change the culture. The entire training session is designed around that. Of course, you'll get definitions and what constitutes harassment and some of the guidelines that can indicate what could be harassment and what is not harassment, but the entire three-hour session.... Of course, we would have liked to have maybe six hours or a two-day training session, but in three hours I think what we have been able to achieve is impressive, and I'm sure you'll be very happy with the results.HarassmentWork-based trainingCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarCandiceBergenHon.Portage—Lisgar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59110CandiceBergenHon.Candice-BergenPortage—LisgarConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergenCandice_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Candice Bergen: (1130)[English] Just to be clear, where did we pull the information? How did we come to the material that's part of the training session?HarassmentWork-based trainingPierreParentPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1130)[English]We dealt with an expert firm, ADR Education, that's basically specialized in harassment training. We worked with them because we didn't want to provide members of Parliament with a training session that you would give someone at the beginning of their career. I think you have a different population and you have different needs.I have always said that you are different because you are members of Parliament 24-7. We have to address that and we have to be mindful of that. You have to address behaviour that could occur in a social event over the weekend because you interact with your employees. These are important factors that we need to consider.We did work with specialists in the field but we did have input on what constitutes a reality for members of Parliament.HarassmentWork-based trainingCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[English]Mr. Strahl.PierreParentMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl (Chief Opposition Whip): (1130)[English]Thank you, Mr. Speaker.This is a question that is currently before the House, regarding harassment in the workplace—not to presume the outcome of the debate and vote on Bill C-65—but let's assume that does pass through both the House and Senate as is. We are embarking—certainly every Conservative member of Parliament, from the leader on down, will be taking this training. I just want to make sure that we're not taking training that will need a remedial course right away because things have changed with Bill C-65.Are the possibilities outlined in Bill C-65 taken into account as this training has been developed?C-65, An Act to amend the Canada Labour Code (harassment and violence), the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act and the Budget Implementation Act, 2017, No. 1HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1130)[English]As I mentioned earlier, the training is very culture oriented. We're confident that, with any change that legislation will bring, it will still remain relevant. What could change is the material that we produce as information. We'll produce—and you will see more and more of these awareness pieces from my office. For instance, we're working on flow charts and information, so you can understand the policy much better.If that needs to be adjusted, that's an easy one. We're monitoring Bill C-65. I know that the regulations are not drafted yet, so it's difficult for us to form an opinion. I'm confident that, if we're talking training only, it's going to stand the test of time.HarassmentWork-based trainingMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1130)[English]Thank you.PierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[Translation]Based on your recommendation, the harassment training will be available to MPs and their employees, but there is no mention of frequency. I imagine there would need to be a refresher from time to time, every year or something like that.What do you intend to do about that?HarassmentWork-based trainingMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1130)[Translation]In fact, I had the opportunity to speak with people at the whips' offices, and each of those offices committed to making members of their respective parties available this year. So we hope to train all members of the current Parliament this year. It will be a matter of maintaining this level of training.At the beginning of each new Parliament and when there are byelections, we will have to make sure that everyone gets the training. Also, in future Parliaments, we will be able to assess the need for refresher training. I realize that it is not easy for members to free up three hours, but we will be able to work with the whips’ offices based on members' availability.HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1130)[Translation]Could you tell us whether there are any best practices on how often you have to provide refresher training?HarassmentWork-based trainingPierreParentPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1135)[Translation]No best practices are defined. Having said that, I do not think it's good practice to give training at the beginning of a person's career and forget about it for 20 or 30 years. I think it would be appropriate to have a refresher on certain things at least every three or five years, because some concepts may have been forgotten. This is something we could consider.HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[Translation]Thank you very much.Ms. Brosseau, you have the floor.PierreParentRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau (House Leader of the New Democratic Party): (1135)[English]I would just like to say thank you very much for the presentations. I would like to commend you for all the work that has been done and the collaboration. I think this has been a long time coming. I'm happy that we're here and we're taking these steps in the right direction.I think there's been discussions from all sides that we would like to make sure our staff members are included in this process. I would like to know how we could make sure that our staff, on the NDP side, would use some of the services and that they would be accepted. I'm hopeful we can get agreement at committee.HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1135)[English]We've already started working on this part of the training. The challenge for staff is probably more kind of logistical. As you're aware, most of the staff members are in the constituencies.My initial discussion in early January was to maybe take advantage of the annual professional development day that some parties have. I think your party's was last December. I'm hearing interest to maybe have these sessions earlier.We're trying to work with our provider to see if some of these sessions could start before the summer break. The logistics will probably present a challenge. Definitely, it's a priority for us.HarassmentWork-based trainingRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1135)[English]I was going to clarify that it's more for the mediation. You're speaking more to the fact that we have offices in our ridings, and we're going to have training for our staff back home. We're obviously going to be doing ours in June, when we have our staff from constituencies come up. I'm talking more along the lines of making sure that our staff have access to the same—HarassmentWork-based trainingPierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Just to be clear, members, the board may recall, the NDP was not included under the policy, because you had your own policy in relation to your collective argument. But now you're asking to be included.HarassmentRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71357Ruth EllenBrosseauRuthEllen-BrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BrosseauRuthEllen_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Ruth Ellen Brosseau: (1135)[English]Yes.HarassmentGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]Is it agreed that that should be the case, that we amend the policy to do that? That's agreed.Anything else, Madame Brosseau? If not, I have Ms. Chagger.HarassmentRuth EllenBrosseauBerthier—MaskinongéBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): (1135)[English]I would just be building off my colleague's comments. We know there's 20 sessions that are for members, and I'm wondering if there is a defined number of sessions that will be available for employees.I like the idea of the mandatory training. I'm wondering if you're referring to the online or the classroom. Are we differentiating between the two? What is the thought process?I would also like to highlight that this place is constantly changing. Members are coming and going; there are by-elections. When a new member comes in, regardless of whether it's at election time or whether it's at a by-election, these services be rendered.I recall when I first got elected, an overwhelming amount of information is provided initially. Some of it is retained and some of it, unfortunately we don't really remember. I still can't remember one password. The good people here have been able to give me a new one. We get through those times.I just want to be mindful of the conditions when new members come in. I think constant refreshers are necessary; it's no different from CPR first aid. I think we should take the time to define what that looks like to ensure that people are always up to speed, especially new employees, new members. I want to thank you for the good work. I want to understand how many sessions will be available. I would love the assurance to know that the 20 sessions that are available for members will be enough for all members to participate.HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1135)[English]That password is probably “password”.HarassmentBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1135)[English]The 20 sessions were an approximation. If we need 23 or 25, that will not be a problem. We're working with the whips' offices on the logistics. One good thing that came out of this communication is that every party decided to be more heavily involved if I had open rooms.Every party has reserved sessions. Then the scheduling is done with my office in co-operation with the whips' offices. If we require more sessions, we'll organize more. HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89000BardishChaggerHon.Bardish-ChaggerWaterlooLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChaggerBardish_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Bardish Chagger: (1140)[English]You referred to parties. I believe that when it comes to wanting to create a new culture, that parties should not be able to override mandatory training. Therefore, I would ask about independents.HarassmentWork-based trainingPierreParentPierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1140)[English]We're dealing with independents. So far, those we have reached out to have accepted. I'm still waiting for one or two answers. We're dealing with the Bloc Québécois and the Groupe parlementaire Québécois. We're going to deal with those groups separately.The goal is to ensure that everyone has access to the training.HarassmentWork-based trainingBardishChaggerHon.WaterlooGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]Of course I would note the second recommendation is proposing that:The classroom training on harassment that is currently being developed be made mandatory for Members and House Officers, and that the training session be made mandatory for employees of Members, House Officers and Research Offices (including interns and volunteers).I think that helps to answer your question.Mr. Strahl.HarassmentWork-based trainingPierreParentMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]On that, if we're going to talk about the recommendations that have been presented, certainly we have no issue with the first one, which talks about this being part of the on-boarding process. When a new staffer is brought on right now, there are mandatory documents that are provided, and the employee must indicate that they've read, and they sign. I think making this part of that is a good idea. It catches everyone at the beginning of their time here.The second part is about mandatory training when you indicate that something is mandatory or indicate that there is a penalty for failure to comply. I would look to this group to get some feedback. If that is mandatory, and the whips will take care of it in terms of enforcing that for their parties, does that then fall to you, Mr. Speaker, to enforce that for independents? What does non-compliance look like? Although we have the ability to encourage members, and we have no problems in this Parliament getting people to sign on, one can envision a situation where a very independent-minded member would say, “I don't need this. I've done it before in my past life.” If we're talking about it being mandatory, to me that indicates that, if a member fails to comply, there will be a penalty of some sort. I wanted to get an idea from the administration or from feedback from my colleagues as to what that looks like and how can we enforce it.HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]I think I'll start by asking Mr. Parent to give his sense of how he expects this to work.HarassmentWork-based trainingMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopePierreParentPierreParentPierre-ParentInterventionMr. Pierre Parent: (1140)[English]In this round what I'll do is—because it's not mandatory by the board; the whips or the parties have made it mandatory—provide each whip's office with a list of attendance so that enforcement will be done from the whip's office. If in the future, the board makes it mandatory for all members, including independents, for those who don't have a whip to enforce it, I'm not an expert on how the board, the Speaker, or the Clerk would enforce it. I don't know, maybe the Clerk or a law clerk...?HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]If I might just—PierreParentGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1140)[English]I think clearly it has to be reported to me or whoever is the Speaker at the time, of course, because there is no whip for that member. I suspect we're going to have some conversation about what happens in either case.HarassmentWork-based trainingMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1140)[English]I guess the question would be, you said that there was 100% compliance with people signing the pledge for the code of conduct, That was probably...I'm not trying to be difficult. I think this will be easy to enforce. If you're putting that in there, I think you want to have some idea of what it looks like if there is no compliance. If a member goes rogue and says, “I'm not doing that”, will you garnishee their wages? Will you not recognize them in the House? I'm serious. What are we doing to make this real other than saying it's mandatory, but if they don't do it, there's no penalty. I think we need to talk about that. HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]I think that we should have this discussion about what the consequences will be. One obvious thing could be that it's reported here, that I report to the board if certain people.... Usually the whips have a pretty good capacity to get the members to co-operate, especially with things like this that everyone should do anyway, although I'm sure it can be challenging at times on some issues, at least, although probably not this one. The other thing is, if they're not going to comply with this, and they resist it, the board might ask itself what we should do about that person getting resources to hire people. Should we say they can't hire unless they deal with it? Again, it's a question, and I'd like to hear the view of the members of the board on that. Is it sufficient, for starters, to have their name reported, because that obviously is going to be, I would think, embarrassing for a member to have that publicly reported. Do we go beyond that? Do we need to at this point? What do members feel we should do in that regard? I'm glad you've raised this question of the consequences for people who don't comply.HarassmentWork-based trainingMarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeMarkStrahlChilliwack—Hope//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71986MarkStrahlMark-StrahlChilliwack—HopeConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StrahlMark_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Strahl: (1145)[English]Obviously, there needs to be a time frame given. There's information in the budget about people going on longer leaves now or people who are ill. There are circumstances that arise that prevent people from perhaps doing it as quickly as another member could. This would have to be if someone is acting in bad faith. We go down this slide of who's making those determinations, and probably, again, Mr. Speaker, it would be you, but I would certainly support the threat or the promise of the list of people who have not yet taken that test. In this public forum, I think they would feel some pressure from their constituents as well to engage.HarassmentWork-based trainingGeoffReganHon.Halifax WestGeoffReganHon.Halifax West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1760GeoffReganHon.Geoff-ReganHalifax WestLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ReganGeoff_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Geoff Regan: (1145)[English]Ms. Bergen.MarkStrahlChilliwack—HopeCandiceBergenHon.Portage—LisgarINTERVENTIONParliamentDiscussed TopicProcedural TermPerson SpeakingSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE