StephanieCarvinStephanie-CarvinInterventionDr. Stephanie Carvin (Associate Professor, Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, Carleton University, As an Individual): (1655)[English] Thank you very much. I will advise the committee that I have provided, in true professorial fashion, longer comments, but in the interest of five minutes, I will be much more brief.I suspect it's fairly well known that Lester B. Pearson once described foreign policy as “domestic policy with its hat on”, and Pierre Elliot Trudeau described it as “extension abroad of national policies”, yet it is seldom that we see our policy-makers treat foreign policy in this way.Foreign affairs are often treated as an afterthought—a luxury rather than an instrument of state power that can further both our domestic and international interests abroad. Diplomacy is seen as a reward for friendship rather than as a tool that will ensure our interests and also reach across divides when difficult conversations need to take place.It's understandable why this is the state of affairs. We live in a very safe neighbourhood compared to a lot of our friends and allies. We've had the blessing of not having to worry about our security. I don't think I need to emphasize the point that these circumstances are rapidly changing. Daily headlines about war, foreign interference, espionage, cyber-attacks and the suffering of refugees and internally displaced persons in the context of an international order under stress are reminder enough.The point is that we were once insulated from many of the world's most difficult challenges, but this is no longer the case. We no longer have the freedom to ignore the world outside our window. To address these problems, we need a foreign affairs department that can navigate these uncertain waters.To this end, I wish to raise several points for the committee's consideration.First, and I think most importantly, human resources issues at Global Affairs Canada, by all accounts, are in somewhat dire straits. The recruitment process is archaic, chaotic and not suited to the 21st century. To give just one example, it seems that a significant percentage of the workforce is made up of young master's students or young graduates on 90-day contracts. These temporary employees are constantly faced with the prospect of imminent unemployment and are constantly looking for the next opportunity.To be frank, it is very odd when I attend a meeting at Global Affairs and I am confronted with students who are currently in my own class. This has happened multiple times.This is not how you build a workforce, and therefore I'm strongly endorsing recommendations 9 through 13 on hiring and training of Global Affairs Canada's staff in the December 2023 Senate report, “More Than a Vocation”, which I suspect you're already familiar with.Second, Canada's lack of a foreign policy is, frankly, bizarre, especially for a G7 country. When you ask about it, the result is often disappointing as well. We're told that creating a foreign policy is too hard, too challenging, that circumstances change too fast and that it's not a priority to signal to our allies what our intentions are because they can just pick up a phone and talk to us.We have had a much-delayed Indo-Pacific policy, a defence policy that is yet to re-emerge and the downgrading of a promised Africa strategy to a framework last year. It's clear that we are struggling to write foreign policy documents. I wonder if this is partially because we're simply out of practice in doing so. Other countries release documents on a fairly regular basis. I think there are a lot of advantages to having a foreign policy. It forces choices and it forces priorities. Yes, prioritization is difficult and it requires difficult discussions, or positions can change in light of new events, but the answer is updating that policy, not eschewing the exercise altogether.I think it's also an important communications tool. This is always downgraded, especially by people who worked at the Department of Foreign Affairs. They don't see this as a communication tool.I just travelled to Japan a week and a half ago. In preparation, I looked at their Diplomatic Bluebook. It's 400 pages. Do we need a 400-page book on foreign affairs? Absolutely not, but I think a clear strategic document that conveys our interests to not only our allies but also to Canadians is definitely within our interest. The other points I'd like raise today will kind of reflect and reinforce this point.The third issue is Global Affairs' ability to give timely and useful advice to policy-makers at the centre of government. My colleague Thomas Juneau is going to speak about intelligence in Global Affairs, and I think this plays a part. It's hard to coordinate these things, but anecdotally you hear tales of challenges in providing this advice. It's not only a Global Affairs problem, but better training needs to be given to Global Affairs staff to provide that timely advice that can really help influence a situation when it comes to timely decision-making in an evolving situation.A fourth issue is mission creep. The Senate report I mentioned earlier, “More Than a Vocation”, suggests that GAC should be considered “a central agency with responsibility for coordinating Canada's approach to international policy files across the federal government.” It's recommendation 28. (1700) I really disagree with this recommendation. I think this is a bad idea, and I'm concerned that in lieu of direction that would be provided by a foreign policy, GAC has a mission creep problem. It's true that every issue in government does have an international dimension and that GAC is the lead on foreign affairs, but it's impossible for GAC to have a lead in all of these areas. I'm going to run out of time for my other points, so maybe you can ask me later, but you'll see them in my submission. I think we have to be aware that GAC needs to stick to its mandate.One final thing would be Canada's ability to sustain its engagement. These are questions being asked by our allies. They see our Indo-Pacific policy and they're happy, but do we have what it takes to stay in that region and keep committing to those relationships that we're presently building? Finally I will say that we need to improve our presence abroad. This matters to our allies. They care about us, and it's much easier to think about Canada if you can meet down the street and not three countries over. It's much easier that way.Finally, I think that GAC has a communications problem. We need better transparency and better communications with Canadians, particularly if we're going to reinvest in this capacity. We have to explain to Canadians why it's in their interest to do so.Thank you very much for this opportunity. I look forward to your questions.Communications strategyDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relationsStaffing82331568233157823315882331598233160AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdaleFaridaDeifFarida-DeifInterventionMs. Farida Deif (Canada Director, Human Rights Watch): (1710)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair, and honourable members, for inviting me to discuss Canada's diplomatic capacity in these very turbulent and unpredictable times. This study could not be timelier.It will not come as a surprise that I will focus on human rights, which I believe should constitute the moral backbone of Canadian diplomacy. As the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights has said, human rights are the antidote to the prevailing politics of distraction, deception, indifference and repression. It's clear that the deeply troubling state of affairs we're witnessing globally is fuelled by impunity for human rights violations by the uneven application of international law and the perception that some governments can commit grave crimes and get away with it. With that said, I will focus today on Canada's efforts to advance justice and accountability for serious international crimes and the increasingly glaring double standards that erode Canada's credibility and have profound repercussions for Canadians and people around the world.As you know, Canada was instrumental in the creation of the current international framework for the prevention of mass atrocities. It has also been a leading voice for international accountability, playing a central role in establishing the ICC and more recently supporting efforts to address grave crimes in Syria, Myanmar and Ukraine.The Canadian government's position vis-à-vis the current crisis in Gaza departs significantly from Canada's storied legacy of action. Since the beginning of this conflict, this government has avoided condemning any specific war crimes in Gaza. Instead it repeats broad and general guidance for all parties to abide by international law, while Russia's indiscriminate air strikes on hospitals and schools in Ukraine were rightly condemned. Israel has repeatedly carried out similar attacks without much in the way of condemnation from Ottawa.The international community rightly condemned President Bashar al-Assad's denial of food and water to civilians in Aleppo, but Canada failed to condemn Israel's use of starvation as a method of warfare in Gaza.Similarly, Canada has been a global leader in banning explosive weapons like land mines and cluster munitions and in endorsing a new political declaration on explosive weapons, but the government directly undermined these efforts by remaining silent on Israel's recent use of white phosphorus in populated areas in Gaza and in Lebanon.The government's problematic response to the ICJ's recent ruling on Israel further undermines its stated commitment to a global rules-based order, highlighting its double standards when it comes to Israel. This may also signal that Israel does not need to comply with the order and sends a dangerous message to other states that are before international bodies.When Canadian diplomacy deviates from international law, it has harmful consequences for Canada far beyond Gaza. Statements by Canadian officials on atrocities anywhere in the world will ring hollow, making it harder to hold perpetrators accountable and deter future international crimes. Pressure by Canada on warring parties to abide by the laws of war and other conflicts will no doubt also carry less weight.These dangerous double standards unfortunately extend to consular affairs. I have appeared before this committee to highlight the utterly dire situation facing Canadian men, women and children who have been arbitrarily detained in northeast Syria for suspected ISIS ties. We have, at Human Rights Watch, along with a range of UN experts, including the UN Secretary-General, repeatedly called on Canada to repatriate citizens for rehabilitation, reintegration and prosecution as warranted. While some of these Canadian women and children have been repatriated following a court case, many remain unlawfully detained, in addition to all Canadian men. To date, none of the Canadians who have been detained for close to seven years have received any consular assistance. In this way, Canada is flouting not only its international legal obligations but its own guidelines to intervene when citizens abroad face serious abuses, including risks to life, torture and inhumane and degrading treatment.In January 2021, Global Affairs adopted a consular policy framework specific to this group of citizens that makes it near impossible for them to return home. Among the eligibility criteria for repatriation is a change in medical condition, but the government knows full well that there's little to no chance of these detainees accessing medical care without Canada's assistance. I'd like to remind you, finally, that in June 2021, the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development made concrete recommendations on the provision of consular assistance to this very group of Canadian detainees. This has unfortunately fallen on deaf ears. Global Affairs has provided no consular assistance to the detainees and has done little to nothing to support their relatives here in Canada, some of whom are just pleading for proof of life for their loved ones. Thank you very much.Civil and human rightsDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaHuman Rights WatchInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionInternational lawIsraelPalestineRepatriation82331988233199823320082332018233202AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): (1755)[English]Thanks, Chair.Thank you to the witnesses.Dr. Jennifer Welsh, who is the director of the Centre for International Peace and Security at McGill, said to this committee that “Canadians are living in an international system that is less hospitable to our interests and values”.The question is, have we left the camp, were we left behind or have we done something wrong to be living in an international system that is less hospitable to our values and our interests?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8233398823339982334008233401AliEhsassiWillowdaleStephanieCarvinStephanieCarvinStephanie-CarvinInterventionDr. Stephanie Carvin: (1755)[English]To be honest, I think we have gotten a bit lazy. It's not so much that we don't care, but.... It's like a house. You move into your house and you enjoy the house, but you have to occasionally replace the windows, redo the roof and things like this. I think we have become lazy, assuming that this infrastructure would always be there and that we could always be a part of it. We need to have capacity in our Global Affairs department to ensure that renewal can consistently take place.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy82334028233403ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningThomasJuneauThomas-JuneauInterventionDr. Thomas Juneau: (1755)[English]I would agree with how Professor Carvin just phrased it. I think that living under the U.S. defence and security umbrella for decades has made us dilettantes in foreign policy. It has been easy. We have neglected foreign policy. We have made bad decisions on foreign policy and have not paid a price for decades. That's over.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8233405ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningZiadAboultaifEdmonton Manning//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1755)[English]Thank you.There are different types of diplomacy. The Minister of Foreign Affairs talked about “pragmatic diplomacy”. There's also another type, called “dollar diplomacy”. What are we doing? Are we really doing enough with pragmatic diplomacy that we can reserve our space or spot in the world among our allies and among the international community? Are we doing enough dollar diplomacy, yes or no?That's for Dr. Juneau and then Dr. Carvin.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8233406823340782334088233409ThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomas-JuneauInterventionDr. Thomas Juneau: (1755)[English]Just to be clear, what do you mean, exactly, by “dollar diplomacy”?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8233410ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningZiadAboultaifEdmonton Manning//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1755)[English]Dollar diplomacy is one way that countries use to get some influence on the international stage. If we are falling behind and we don't put forward enough resources, that could be one reason why we are not doing so well. Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8233411ThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomas-JuneauInterventionDr. Thomas Juneau: (1755)[English]Very briefly, whatever reforms we implement on machinery issues and whatever we do in terms of what Professor Carvin was mentioning in terms of better defining our foreign policy interests, objectives and so on, without money and resources for diplomacy, defence and, I would add, foreign intelligence and national security, we are only going to be able to partially defend our interests. There is very simply a need to invest more.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8233412ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningStephanieCarvinStephanie-CarvinInterventionDr. Stephanie Carvin: (1755)[English]I would agree with that. I would refer to the comments and discussion I had with Ms. McPherson; development matters in these conversations, particularly with our non-western allies. We don't seem to pay attention to that.I don't know if I like calling it “dollar diplomacy”. Definitely we refer to that in.... Some people talk about the debt trap in Africa, with regard to China and how they are providing money that will never be repaid, but there are definitely steps there that we could be taking, especially with our allies, in terms of outreach to those countries.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy82334148233415ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningZiadAboultaifEdmonton Manning//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif: (1755)[English]If I ask you as academics to explain or to define pragmatic diplomacy in short words, would you be able to do so?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8233416StephanieCarvinThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomas-JuneauInterventionDr. Thomas Juneau: (1755)[English]First of all, pragmatic diplomacy can mean whatever you want it to mean. I think that's the key point. When a politician defines something like that, to me it means that we will dismiss principles, objectives and strategies and play it as it goes. In theory, pragmatic diplomacy would mean that ideology and values take the back seat.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8233417ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningStephanieCarvinStephanie-CarvinInterventionDr. Stephanie Carvin: (1800)[English]Thomas is the expert, as you know. I would leave it to him. I agree. The only thing I would caution is that when we say “pragmatic”, it could be anything. It's a shape-shifting form.There is a role for values and human rights in our foreign policy. It has to be there, otherwise I think we're.... We have talked about being hypocritical; we also don't want to be seen as being cynical.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy823341982334208233421ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningAliEhsassiWillowdaleRoryMedcalfRory-MedcalfInterventionMr. Rory Medcalf: (2055)[English]Thank you. That's fine. I have two last points before we go to the conversation.The other issue that's really important to understand, of course, is the economic coercive measures, which, as members of the committee would be aware, were imposed on Australia after the then Australian government called for an independent international inquiry into the origins of the COVID pandemic. Although the Australian politics of much of the management of the relationship may have been clumsily handled at times and the relationship may have become overpoliticized, the national interests and values at stake in this confrontation, I think, were recognized across the political spectrum.To wrap up, in the last 18 months or almost two years, we have a relatively new government, a Labour government in Australia, which, although it has taken a more careful approach to diplomacy with China, has not retreated on any of the fundamental national security commitments made by the previous government. In fact, has been more forward-leaning in some ways in competing with China's strategic and political influence in our neighbourhood in the south Pacific part of the Indo-Pacific region. I'll pause there. I would like to find an opportunity to talk to the committee a little about the broader Indo-Pacific geopolitics, but I'm sure some questions will open that conversation. Thank you. AustraliaChinaForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational relations82252088225209KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1745)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today. It's very interesting to me. Alex, you talked a bit about having an international human rights strategy. We tried to bring that forward with an amendment during Bill C-281 last spring. It did not pass, which was disappointing. You also talk a lot about Canada's role in the world. What I wanted to ask you about is this. You look at Syria, where we treat some Canadian citizens differently from other Canadian citizens. You look at our arms strategy with cluster munitions, where we're not there any longer as a leader in disarmament. Then you look at things like the ICJ and how our response to the ICJ and the ICC is very different when it happens in certain contexts from when it happens in other contexts. I'd like you to comment on the reputational risks to Canada. What does this actually mean when the rest of the world is watching Canada and sees that we apply human rights, citizenship and international law differently in different contexts?What are the implications of that?Civil and human rightsDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational law822323282232338223234822323582232368223237AliEhsassiWillowdaleAlexNeveAlexNeveAlex-NeveInterventionMr. Alex Neve: (1745)[English]I think the implications are very grave. I say that not at all naively or suggesting that the world is awash with many other countries that have a stellar record. Obviously, we can look across the planet and find many countries that are similarly pursuing foreign policy in ways that are contradictory, hypocritical, undermining and ignoring universal standards. However, I think we have always expected, demanded and seen much more from Canada. I think some of the examples you've highlighted, all of which are quite recent or even contemporary and playing out right now....The approach we've taken to the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court and the vital role that those two global institutions should be playing in helping to tackle the impunity that is at the heart of what's happened in Israel and Gaza—coming from a country that has always championed those two institutions—is noted. It's certainly noted by other governments. It's noted by global civil society. It's noted within the UN, and it is not to our credit. That will not serve us well with respect to ensuring that our voice is heard with respect to Israel and Gaza, and it will have reverberations more widely as well.Civil and human rightsDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational law82232388223239822324082232418223242HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaGarPardyGar-PardyInterventionMr. Gar Pardy: (1745)[English]No. I fully agree with Alex.Civil and human rightsDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational law8223245HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88384MélanieJolyHon.Mélanie-JolyAhuntsic-CartiervilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JolyMélanie_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mélanie Joly (Minister of Foreign Affairs): (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is good to see all of you.[Translation]I'm pleased to see you all here.[English]Canada finds itself in a growing international security crisis. It is undeniable. Just a few days ago I was in Kyiv, delivering a clear message from our government to Ukrainians that we are not going anywhere and we will be there for as long as it takes. Canada will continue to support Ukraine's fight for freedom through to the end of the war but also beyond. This is why Canada and Ukraine have launched an international coalition to bring Ukrainian children back home. We want to make sure that kids are never used as pawns in wartime.Even after the war, Ukraine will be next door to a very dangerous neighbour, Russia. We know that in that context, Canada must be able to help Ukraine defend itself and show deterrence in light of danger. That is why I was there, and we have been working on advancing Canada's long-term bilateral security commitments to Ukraine to deter future Russian aggression.[Translation]Unfortunately, that's not the only conflict in the world that Canadians are concerned about. We're all deeply troubled by the devastating scenes coming out of the Middle East, whether it be the Hamas terrorist attack against Israel on October 7, which we continue to roundly condemn, or the death toll from the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which we are all extremely concerned about.Our government continues to support urgent efforts to secure an agreement to free hostages. It will allow for more humanitarian aid to flow into Gaza and it will force Hamas to lay down its arms. We hope that this agreement will eventually lead to a sustainable ceasefire as well as a two-state solution.[English] Whether in Khan Yunis, in Kherson or even in Khartoum, the rules-based system that has kept Canadians safe for generations is cracking. We are all facing increasingly complex modern challenges—disinformation and the rise of AI and political polarization, including the rise of extremist and populist movements even here in Canada.We cannot let bad actors exploit this uncertainty with impunity. In rising to meet these challenges, I have been clear that our government's foreign policy will be guided by two key principles.The first one is that we absolutely need to defend Canada's sovereignty. Our national interests require it and our national security depends on it. We must stand firm and defend the rules-based system and the institutions that have kept us safe.The second is pragmatic diplomacy. We need to engage in pragmatic diplomacy to work with countries of different perspectives to prevent an international conflict. I don't believe in the empty chair policy. We will never compromise our values and we will never compromise our national interests.In what we do on the world stage to make sure that we succeed, we must be present globally with our eyes and ears on the ground. Our diplomats must be diverse, bilingual, healthy and well equipped.Last fall, we released a detailed plan to transform Global Affairs Canada for the future of diplomacy. It is more important than ever that this plan be implemented, and thank you to Antoine and David for working actively on this.This plan has four points.(1710)[Translation]First, there is a need to invest in our people, in “our world” as we say. That includes recruiting a diplomatic corps that is representative of Canada in all its diversity. Francophones must be able to speak their mother tongue and we need to speak more foreign languages and speak them better. We also need to provide greater support to our diplomats and their families abroad.[English]Second, we must increase our presence where it matters most. This means expanding our influence in key multilateral institutions, including, of course, the United Nations.We must also grow our diplomatic footprint in key regions such as eastern Europe, Africa and the Indo-Pacific. This is something our government has already begun doing.Third, we need to enhance our policy expertise to better anticipate and manage prolonged crises like climate change, as well as the issue of AI and the digital world.Last but not least, we must have the tools and processes to be efficient and to be better protected from cyber-threats, which are currently top of mind for all of us.[Translation]I'm ready to answer your questions.Business processesDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelLanguage of workNational securityPalestineRussiaStaffingUkraineUnited NationsWar8212096AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54157SameerZuberiSameer-ZuberiPierrefonds—DollardLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZuberiSameer_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sameer Zuberi (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): (1745)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Minister, for being here today.There is so much happening in the world today. I know that your job is extremely challenging at this time. I recognize that and appreciate what you're doing in these difficult circumstances.Top of mind right now is the Middle East. A lot of Canadians are watching what is happening and have loved ones who are there. Some Canadians are still stuck in Gaza and are trying to get out, along with their families. Our government has made a commitment to help families of Canadians come to Canada. A lot of Canadians have come back. They have been able to leave Gaza, which is very positive. You described it as the worst place on Earth right now, and I have no doubt that this is true.Can you let us know what the challenges are around getting the remaining Canadians and their families out of Gaza? What are the challenges that you are facing? Before—Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8212278821227982122808212281AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54157SameerZuberiSameer-ZuberiPierrefonds—DollardLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZuberiSameer_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sameer Zuberi: (1745)[English]Excellent.I was about to get to the question, but I wanted to thank you for the work you did around Mansour Shouman, who is a Canadian citizen and is now not detained. I know your ministry did a lot.To my question, Mr. Chair, through you, with respect to the challenges that are being faced to get Canadians and their families out, what are they?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine821228582122868212287AliEhsassiWillowdaleMélanieJolyHon.Ahuntsic-Cartierville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88384MélanieJolyHon.Mélanie-JolyAhuntsic-CartiervilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JolyMélanie_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mélanie Joly: (1745)[English]I've been losing a lot of sleep on this issue of getting Canadians out of Gaza, usually in different countries we organize consular services so that once Canadians are able to leave, they just leave; they don't necessarily need an authorization, depending on the country. When it comes to Gaza, we need to get approval to get Canadians out, to get anybody out, and that approval needs to come from Israel, through COGAT, which is part of the Ministry of Defense. Also, Canadians getting out of Gaza need to get approval from Egypt. Coordination between these two governments is not always seamless, to say the least.While the delay has sometimes been frustrating, to be frank, we absolutely need to make sure Canadians who go through the Rafah gate are able to go while it's secure. There's been shelling of the Rafah gate region, which has been making it very difficult to get Canadians to go to the Rafah gate.From the moment they're at the Rafah gate, the team in Cairo goes to meet them and take care of them. We have an agreement with Egypt that Canadians coming out of Gaza need to leave Egypt 48 hours after they have left Gaza. That's why we also worked with Canadians to make sure they were able to travel to Canada, and if they don't necessarily have the funding for it, we have a loan program that is very efficient we've worked on.I must say, Sameer, that since I have constituents myself who have family in Gaza, this has been something I've been putting a lot of pressure and energy into. I must thank Julie Sunday, who's the head of our consular affairs and also the hostage negotiation team, because she has been doing fantastic work in a very difficult situation.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8212288821228982122908212291SameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardSameerZuberiPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110476MikeMorriceMike-MorriceKitchener CentreGreen Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorriceMike_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Morrice: (1810)[English]Thank you, Chair.First of all, Chair, so you're aware, in terms of Canada's diplomatic capacity, my question relates to checking another country's claim before cutting funding to a UN organization, so I think it's within the scope of the study.Minister, as you know, there are two million people in Gaza who depend on UNRWA. As you've said many times before, Gaza is the worst place in the world to live right now. UNRWA employs 13,000 people there, and they quickly fired 12 individuals as of January 26 under allegations of connections with Hamas. As MP McPherson shared earlier, CBC is now reporting that the Government of Canada hasn't seen evidence backing up Israel's claim that staff employed by UNRWA colluded with Hamas in any way before we suspended our funding. In light of all of this, are there conversations in your department right now and/or with the Minister of International Development with respect to restoring funding to UNRWA?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8212425821242682124278212428AliEhsassiWillowdaleMélanieJolyHon.Ahuntsic-Cartierville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88384MélanieJolyHon.Mélanie-JolyAhuntsic-CartiervilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JolyMélanie_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mélanie Joly: (1815)[English] Thank you, Mike.I know that there is a very important conversation happening about UNRWA, and I know that UNRWA is important to Palestinians. I really get it. That's why we supported UNRWA and why we invested in UNRWA. What happened on October 7 was catastrophic, we know, and the allegations that have been made are very serious, and that is why Canada is not the only country that has paused its funding to UNRWA. At the same time, it is normal that the UN, which I think is doing the right thing, is investigating, because these are serious allegations, and I think, Mike, you can agree with that.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine82124298212430MikeMorriceKitchener CentreMikeMorriceKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110476MikeMorriceMike-MorriceKitchener CentreGreen Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorriceMike_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Morrice: (1815)[English]There's no debate whatsoever about the seriousness of the allegations. The concern I'm raising, and my question, are with respect to whether we received any other information beyond information from Israel with respect to these 12 individuals—12 of 13,000 employees in the organization—who've already been fired.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8212431MélanieJolyHon.Ahuntsic-CartiervilleMélanieJolyHon.Ahuntsic-Cartierville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88384MélanieJolyHon.Mélanie-JolyAhuntsic-CartiervilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JolyMélanie_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mélanie Joly: (1815)[English]Mike, it's the Minister of International Development who has been in contact, but it was UNRWA itself that raised the issue with Canada. It was they who connected with us to talk about this issue. That is why we took note of what they were saying, and that is why we worked with other countries on this issue.I'm confident, and I have total trust in the head of the the investigation. She used to be my colleague. She's a person whom I respect a lot, the former minister of foreign affairs for France, Catherine Colonna. I really hope that the investigation can be, as I mentioned, very thorough, but also rapid, because we need to continue to provide humanitarian aid to Gaza, and UNRWA is fundamental in offering that humanitarian aid.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine82124328212433MikeMorriceKitchener CentreMikeMorriceKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110476MikeMorriceMike-MorriceKitchener CentreGreen Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorriceMike_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Morrice: (1815)[English]To clarify from your comment, did UNRWA request that Canada cut funding?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8212434MélanieJolyHon.Ahuntsic-CartiervilleMélanieJolyHon.Ahuntsic-Cartierville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88384MélanieJolyHon.Mélanie-JolyAhuntsic-CartiervilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JolyMélanie_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mélanie Joly: (1815)[English]What I am telling you is that it's really much more the international aspect. I haven't had conversations with UNRWA. What I know is that UNRWA reached out to us as a government to raise these allegations, and we were not the only one. They did that with all other countries that are funders of UNRWA.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8212435MikeMorriceKitchener CentreMikeMorriceKitchener Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110476MikeMorriceMike-MorriceKitchener CentreGreen Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MorriceMike_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Mike Morrice: (1815)[English]Is there a conversation happening right now in the federal government with respect to responding to what we're understanding from CBC on the extent to which we are validating the claim about these 12 individuals?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8212436MélanieJolyHon.Ahuntsic-CartiervilleMélanieJolyHon.Ahuntsic-Cartierville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88384MélanieJolyHon.Mélanie-JolyAhuntsic-CartiervilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JolyMélanie_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Mélanie Joly: (1815)[English]That is a question you need to absolutely ask Ahmed Hussen, our colleague.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8212437MikeMorriceKitchener CentreAliEhsassiWillowdaleStephen R.NagyStephenR--NagyInterventionMr. Stephen R. Nagy (Professor, International Christian University, MacDonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual): (1845)[English]Thank you very much, Chair.Yes, they do not have snowplows in Tokyo; they use water to blow away the snow.Thank you very much for the opportunity to share these points and speak on peace and security in Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy. I'd like to frame my comments in three particular areas. One is contradiction, two is IPS priorities and three is minilateral engagement.In terms of contradictions, I would like to outline the many contradictions that I think the current government has been engaged in regarding how we are thinking about peace and security in the Indo-Pacific and resources.In 2022, the Trudeau government released its long-awaited Indo-Pacific strategy, promising at least $2.3 billion Canadian over five years to implement the strategy. That announcement came at the same time as our national defence minister at the time, Anita Anand, promised Canada would spend $4.9 billion on modernizing our North American air defence. At the same time, our government committed funds to its objectives in Europe, including $2.6 billion to renew and expand Operation Reassurance, part of NATO's defence and deterrence measures in eastern Europe. We also had an announcement about defence cutbacks. These contradictory positions raised inconvenient questions about how Canada is going to sustain its foreign and defence policy within the Indo-Pacific while resources are being diminished across the board or being deployed in Ukraine.How do we meet our priorities within the Indo-Pacific in both foreign policy and defence policy? They really are being challenged. I think these contradictory positions are raising serious concerns among our allies and partners about where Canada sits in the Indo-Pacific, what kinds of resources are going to be deployed in the Indo-Pacific and whether we can engage in a sustained, meaningful and fruitful diplomacy.My second point has to do with Indo-Pacific priorities. Here again I think that, quite frankly, we've spread the peanut butter way too thin in how we are engaging in the Indo-Pacific. What should be Canada's defence priorities within the foreign policy and defence policies in the region?Here, I particularly advocate for limiting or pulling back our Indo-Pacific engagement from the western Indian Ocean and primarily focusing on the South China Sea, the East China Sea and the Pacific Ocean. These are critical for Canada. They have sea lines of communication that ferry about $4.5 trillion U.S. in trade through the South China Sea, in and around Taiwan and through the East China Sea.The major economies in the region, whether it's South Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan or Southeast Asian countries, really are the most important players for Canada. We need to make sure that the sea lines of communication remain secure and stable and that Canada can engage freely within the region.The third point that I think is important is stable supply chains, in particular semiconductor supply chains. This revolves around cross-strait relations. We need to find critical ways to foster peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait to ensure that semiconductors can continue to be exported to Canada to employ Canadians.North Korea is also an actor that I think we need to find ways to work with. I'm going to come back to that, as North Korea continues to produce weapons of mass destruction, in both quantity and quality.Another area I'll focus on is China. This is the Canada-China committee. I think we are on the same page of the book. China is interested in reshaping the region's security environment and security architecture and how rules are being promoted within the region. We have a deep-seated interest in a rules-based order within the region. We have a deep-seated interest in pushing back against disinformation and other tactics for reshaping the region that will be unfavourable to Canadian interests, including in trade and in supporting our key partners like Japan, South Korea, Singapore and others.What are the key tools for engagement? Here, I'm advocating for minilateral partnerships. This doesn't eschew multilateral partnerships. They're much more focused, functional partnerships, with four or five other like-minded countries, to deal with specific issues that will enable Canada to add meaningful value within the region.A good example, of course, is plugging into the quadrilateral security dialogue. “Plugging in” means that we, on an ad hoc basis, plug into the quadrilateral security dialogue's maritime exercises, perhaps search and rescue exercises and humanitarian, disaster and assistance relief exercises to add value, considering our limited resources.(1850)Another good example is plugging into the AUKUS agreement. I think the nuclear submarine part of the AUKUS agreement is distant from Canadian interests, but the AI and quantum computing components of the AUKUS agreement are clear areas where Canada can contribute, considering we've already secured a budget for co-operation in these areas.We need to advocate for—AUKUSChinaDefence alliancesDefence policyDistribution and service industriesForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational relationsSemiconductors81989718198972KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/496StéphaneBergeronStéphane-BergeronMontarvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergeronStéphane_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Bergeron: (1930)[Translation]What would you say to the claim that Canada has twice failed to land a seat on the United Nations Security Council because, more and more, developing countries are seeing Canada as an arm of the United States when it comes to a number of global issues, particularly the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?ChinaForeign policyGazaInternational relationsIsrael8199128Stephen R.NagyStephen R.NagyStephen R.NagyStephenR--NagyInterventionMr. Stephen R. Nagy: (1930)[English]I think Canada has an increasingly challenged relationship in not having a principled approach to many issues. This is not so much related to the United States as it is a track record over the past 15 years. You mentioned the conflict in Gaza. That is an example. What is our principled position on Gaza? This creates challenges in how developing countries see Canada as an independent thinker on issues. We've moved away from a position where we are an honest broker between the United States and other countries. We need to move back to that principled approach, one where we chart out a Canadian path, not a path that is necessarily always aligned with the United States. However, let's be clear. We are aligned with the United States on many issues because we share an economy. We have many shared cultural issues. We have respect for the rule of law. As a result, I think we will naturally be aligned with the United States on more issues than not.ChinaForeign policyGazaInternational relationsIsrael819912981991308199131StéphaneBergeronMontarvilleKenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsDeannaHortonDeanna-HortonInterventionMs. Deanna Horton (Distinguished Fellow, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual): (1955)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English]Members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this evening.I would like to focus my remarks on three major themes.First, while the announcement of Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy was welcomed by many stakeholders, Canada should make every effort to ensure its implementation and even go further in order to reverse its flagging reputation as a reliable partner.Second, the increasing activity of Asian states, including China, in the Arctic means that, de facto, the Arctic is part of the Indo-Pacific and Canada should be upping its game in support of Arctic development and security.Third, Canada should be leveraging its relationship with key U.S. allies in the north Pacific, namely Japan and Korea, and should work with them not only in the Arctic but also in Southeast Asia, where they are major investors, and take advantage of their long-standing experience in dealing with China.My first point is that Canada has a long history of coming and going in Asia. The Indo-Pacific strategy could indeed be a generational change, but its budget is not large, and it may be a challenge to keep the funds flowing in an era of budget cuts. Canada should stay the course and leverage other relationships for greater impact.In this context I would like to make the point that Canada does very little to leverage one of its most important assets in Asia, namely our large Asian diaspora and alumni from Canadian universities. These pools of human capital would no doubt prove invaluable if we were to call upon them to get involved and to share their knowledge of Indo-Pacific markets, business norms, culture and local politics. Our representatives abroad are likely already in contact with some of these talented people, but this should be actively encouraged and supported by the Government of Canada.My second point is that many Canadians would be surprised to know the extent to which Asian nations are implicated in the Arctic. China has declared itself to be a near-Arctic state with the development of the so-called polar silk road as a priority. Japan has a long history of Arctic engagement, in particular regarding scientific activities, polar research and innovation. With climate change and the prospect of greater use of the Northwest Passage, South Korea will also focus on shipbuilding. All are interested in mineral development, including critical minerals.As Munk School founding director Janice Stein stated in a conference last year, the Arctic will be “the next big bucket of investment for Canada”. However, the necessary investments in Arctic infrastructure and security, in spite of the fact that this region is central to Canadian interests, are yet to happen in any significant way. I would argue that further investments in technologies such as spatial and drone reconnaissance and combining with NATO and other partners to shore up defences and build the Arctic's economic resilience would be a long-term benefit to Canada.My third point is that Indo-Pacific strategies arguably came about as a means of countering China's growing influence in Asia. Canada joined the fray after many of the other players. I believe that in order for Canada to achieve the maximum impact on a sustainable basis, we should be allying with other democratic nations, in particular U.S. allies such as Japan and South Korea. The trilateral summit—the U.S., Japan and South Korea—that took place in August 2023 was truly groundbreaking. There is little doubt that part of the incentive for the increased level of collaboration was the push not only for enhanced communication and interoperability, but also for greater burden-sharing.The U.S. is facing challenges on all fronts and would no doubt appreciate Canada taking on its fair share in the Arctic, which could free up vital resources for other Indo-Pacific ventures. In addition, Canada should be taking advantage of Japan and Korea's technical innovation and business expertise to expand opportunities in the Arctic and Indo-Pacific, especially in Southeast Asia.Canada has a good deal of experience in dealing with the United States, and Japan and Korea with China. Against the backdrop of potential changes in America's leadership in Asia, Canada would be wise to strengthen these north Pacific relationships.(2000) Thank you very much. I'd be happy to answer any questions.ArcticChinaDiasporaForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational meetingsInternational relationsInvestment8199235KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/496StéphaneBergeronStéphane-BergeronMontarvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergeronStéphane_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Bergeron: (2020)[Translation]Thank you very much.I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us this evening. For Ms. Paskal, I believe it is even quite late.Ms. Fitz-Gerald, in an article you co-wrote with Dr. Jonathan Berkshire‑Miller that was published in iPolitics, you stated that Canada continues to be unsure whether it would be worthwhile to properly define its interests, and it has done nothing recently to define them in terms of a national security strategy, a defence strategy or a clear foreign policy.Some would even say that the Government of Canada tends to put the cart before the horse, that it's working on a defence policy without having defined a foreign policy and that it's developed an Indo-Pacific strategy without having defined its foreign policy. What are your thoughts?ChinaDefence policyForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational relations8199303819930481993058199306KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsAnnFitz-GeraldAnnFitz-GeraldAnn-Fitz-GeraldInterventionDr. Ann Fitz-Gerald: (2020)[English]Yes, I believe the cart is before the horse in many cases. As to policy strategy, different things are relevant to different countries and different strategic cultures. In order to prioritize and not have aspirational—as opposed to achievable—frameworks, strategies and concept papers, we need to lay down what is at the root of all these strategies. That's why we argued in that article for the articulation and codification of national interests. For instance, a defence policy is all about protecting, preserving, promoting and defending those interests. The codification and articulation of a national interest can also strengthen the social fabric of a country, which is terribly important for a diverse country like Canada. To go into any corner of the country and have communities be able to stand up and say, “The heart of Canadian society is A, B, C, D and E” is tremendously powerful. I've seen this by facilitating the national security strategies of many other countries. I think a national security framework is something that other government frameworks are subordinate to. National security, as the previous panel pointed out, is hip to hip these days with economic security. National security is almost everything. It's the biggest macro strategic tool of government. At the heart of it is something that does not and should not move with different political administrations, something that's the anchor of the ship in rocky waters: national interests. Having a dialogue around them, laying them down and allowing them to be the root of subsequent strategies are important. At the moment, I feel that the Indo-Pacific strategy, the feminist international foreign assistance program and so on—jumping a bit further down—are very important cogs of the system, but they're cogs. There should be a system that articulates priorities and is very clear about what Canada is not going to do at the moment, as well.ChinaDefence policyForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational relations8199307819930881993098199310StéphaneBergeronMontarvilleStéphaneBergeronMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1655)[English]Okay. Thank you.One last question I have for you goes back to the issue of the Indo-Pacific strategy, as we look at the human rights issues we see coming out of India. The question I was going to ask in the last section is how we justify taking our eggs from one basket, where we're quite concerned about human rights, and putting them into another basket, where, of course, human rights should be a deep concern as well.From my perspective, I have a lot of challenges. The government is doing quiet diplomacy. Perhaps there's some open diplomacy, but this is a country that, conceivably, has allegedly killed a Canadian citizen. Democracy or not, having that relationship seems very fraught to me, and I don't understand how we balance that with just being quiet. I have a bit of trouble with that, and I would love your insight on that, Mr. Epp.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyIndiaIndo-Pacific region8218561821856282185638218564WeldonEppAliEhsassiWillowdaleWeldonEppWeldon-EppInterventionMr. Weldon Epp: (1655)[English]Mr. Chair, I'll be very quick.The question has a reasonable premise. I believe that the government's decision, for example, to pause free trade negotiations with India reflects the premise that, given the serious nature of the allegations, it's not currently “business as usual”. However, we do have an important long-term, strategic relationship with India, and Canadians and Indians do as well.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyIndiaIndo-Pacific region82185668218567AliEhsassiWillowdaleHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98747JeanYipJean-YipScarborough—AgincourtLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/YipJean_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Jean Yip: (1925)[English]Thank you.Professor Houlden, you mentioned that Canada should invest more in soft power. Could you elaborate on that?ChinaForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational cooperationInternational relationsUnited Nations peacekeeping operations81797668179767Fen OslerHampsonGordonHouldenFen OslerHampsonFenOsler-HampsonInterventionDr. Fen Osler Hampson: (1925)[English]I used that term, but you said the same things.ChinaForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational cooperationInternational relationsUnited Nations peacekeeping operations8179769GordonHouldenGordonHouldenGordonHouldenGordon-HouldenInterventionMr. Gordon Houlden: (1925)[English]That's fair enough.The influence comes in different ways. We are but 40 million people. Again, the heavy battalions are in Asia, where provinces of China have, in some cases, triple that. India obviously as well, and Indonesia.... We have what we call the physics of power, that scale issue. It doesn't apply quite as much to western Europe, necessarily, but it applies in spades to Asia.Also, you have the tyranny of distance. You have that great distance with a fainter footprint, and then you have the size. That means expense to overcome that distance, and spending sufficiently on exerting influence at a distance is great. We're going to be more affected by Asia than we will affect them, but that is not an excuse for inaction and not making the effort. There is support—a bit of a bias here—for our academic institutions operating abroad, and it isn't and shouldn't be all about government. Business as well can have an important role internationally. We are more or less invisible in the United States, but we're present, our firms, in a particular, in large numbers. That's not quite so true in Asia.Distance is only an excuse sometimes. People look at a globe, and Australia is right next door. I spoke to some Australians today at their high commission. Sydney is further from Shanghai than Vancouver is, but the difference is that, for Australians, the psychological distance is much shorter. In other words, they have made a decision that Asia is important to them, so they engage and they expect that to be the case. They are present on the ground in large numbers throughout southeast Asia in particular but also in east Asia.For us sitting in Toronto or even in my home province of Alberta, China doesn't loom large. For the diaspora community it does, of course, but that shouldn't be the only place where expertise on Asia, interest in Asia or a role in Asia should apply. It takes money and sustained effort. The key thing there, I'd say, would be sustained effort. Some of the issues in the past decades have been that we have had these episodic enthusiasms for Asia, and then some other crisis or some other situation comes along, and we move. That is noticed in those countries. If you visit a couple of times, and then it's six years since you were there, that will diminish any impact you have, whether it's soft power or just in terms of commercial promotion.ChinaForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational cooperationInternational relationsUnited Nations peacekeeping operations817977081797718179772817977381797748179775Fen OslerHampsonKenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsJiaWangJia-WangInterventionMs. Jia Wang (Deputy Director, University of Alberta - China Institute, As an Individual): (2005)[Translation]Good evening.[English] Thank you to the committee for this opportunity to appear before you for this important discussion on Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy. Several esteemed colleagues have already spoken before me. It's a tough act to follow, but I'll try my best to share my observations.I also note that I'm the only one who is not a gentleman with a beard tonight.Voices: Oh, oh!Ms. Jia Wang: IPS is an ambitious strategy with a broad spectrum of objectives, from trade and investment to sustainable development to people-to-people connections to peace and security. Much work and many resources have been put forth to implement this strategy and promote it in the region. Canada, as we all know, is heavily dependent on global trade, much more so than our leading trading partners such as the U.S. and China. As Canada needs to diversify our market and supply chains and the world's economy and security agendas increasingly pivot to the Indo-Pacific region, the launch of the IPS study, I think, is very timely.The framing of China's role as an increasingly disruptive global power has caught a lot of attention. The term Canada uses has gone further with a more negative connotation than other countries', including our closest ally, the U.S., which called China a “strategic competitor”.Canada's framing prompted a very strong reaction from China, perhaps not surprisingly. A disrupter, however, can also refer to a global power that challenges the norm, spurs tectonic changes and also shakes things up. It is my understanding that the second layer of this meaning was considered in the policy thinking but is rarely mentioned.As Canada endeavours to expand engagement with the Indo-Pacific, we must recognize that many regional players' views and policies towards China don't necessarily align with ours. ASEAN, which was elevated to Canada's strategic partner status last year, for example, collectively endorsed an inclusive and engagement approach. They favour multilateralism and dialogue rather than isolation and containment. They prefer working with both China and the U.S. rather than being pulled firmly into the orbit of one single great power. Perhaps our regional path forward can be informed in part by the vast experience of the countries in the region.Aside from geopolitical considerations, the reality is that the Indo-Pacific economy and supply chains are highly integrated both laterally and vertically, with China at the very centre. The size of the Chinese economy roughly equals the rest of the Indo-Pacific combined. Despite the attempt to decouple and de-risk from China and the rise of localization and protectionism in the region, China remains the top trade destination for most countries in the region. Since 2020, ASEAN has become China's number one trading partner. Major ASEAN economies saw double-digit trade expansion with China. Intermediate goods, raw materials, investment and technologies from China play a vital role in the leading industries of these emerging economies.China's economic reach in the region is both broad and deep into all segments of the supply chains. Diversifying from China in the region won't be easy or even possible. By boosting our presence in this region and engaging with nations other than China, Canada and Canadian entities will inadvertently increase their exposure to China directly or indirectly. Enhanced competencies and knowledge of the region and China are needed to manage this complexity.Canada's strategy towards Asia, the Indo-Pacific, shall be put into the broader context of a broader global vision. Emergence of regional hot spots and global shocks are nearly inevitable in our volatile world. When there are other competing priorities, countries in the region would ask and wonder if Canada is here to stay and if Canada is really committed to advancing common goals long term in the Indo-Pacific.We should also not lose sight of what the endgame is for us in our global pursuit and perhaps walk back from that point in contemplating our steps to get there. If the ultimate aim is peace and security, peace and prosperity or, at a minimum, survival of humanity and our planet, we shall try to avoid a binary, value-based approach, where we only see things through the lens of good versus evil, democracy versus autocracy, which implies that confrontation is inevitable. It is not a shared perspective by the majority of the world's population, especially not by countries in the Indo-Pacific. Perhaps capitalizing on our past success as a visionary and a thoughtful middle power and bringing back a nuanced approach and pragmatism in our foreign policy thinking might help us go further in the Indo-Pacific.(2010)Thank you.Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)ChinaDistribution and service industriesForeign policyIndo-Pacific regionInternational relationsInternational trade817988681798878179888KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsKenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsPaulEvansPaul-EvansInterventionProfessor Paul Evans (Professor Emeritus, School of Public Policy and Global Affairs, University of British Columbia, As an Individual): (2015)[English]Thank you. The professor emeritus really just takes the role of a pensioner in coming to this group.Thank you for a third opportunity to appear before the committee. This time it's on the China dimension of the government’s Indo-Pacific strategy.Now at the implementation stage, the strategy provides a platform and resources for dozens of initiatives involving multiple departments here at home and multiple players in the region. Not since the era of Canada’s “Year of Asia Pacific” in 1997 has there been such a surge of regional interest and activity.It's important to note that the frame of “Indo-Pacific” varies significantly from the previous “Asia-Pacific”. This is not just a shift that's putting more emphasis on India and south Asia. The international policy statement embodies a bigger change in tone, direction and positioning.“Asia-Pacific” was born in the aftermath of a Cold War, in the late 1980s and early nineties. It, too, was based on appreciation of growing economic dynamism. However, it promoted free trade and open regionalism. It aimed to supplement alliances and deterrence with new co-operative security mechanisms led by the Association of Southeast Asian Nations and assisted by Canada. It aimed at the inclusion of the non-like-minded—like Vietnam and China—in the regional order.“Indo-Pacific” is born in a more pessimistic and zero-sum era. It is characterized by an escalating rivalry between two great powers, anxiety about a rising China and uncertainty about the United States. It is spawning new minilaterals—like the Quad and AUKUS—that are composed of like-minded countries focused on resisting elements of China's rise. There is a new skepticism about open markets and free trade, and a belief that regional economic integration is as much a source of vulnerability and risk as it is opportunity.Buzzwords of the Indo-Pacific era are things like “decoupling”, “de-risking”, “deglobalization”, “diversification away from China”, “strategic competition”, “industrial policy” and “democracy versus authoritarianism”. We're in a new context, which the Indo-Pacific strategy tries to address.In this context, Canada’s Indo-Pacific strategy repositions China as an increasingly disruptive power. Some 15 countries and two international organizations also have Indo-Pacific strategies, but no two are closer than the United States and Canada in framing the China challenge. I'd like to spend the last minute of my remarks on the U.S. dimension of Canada's China policy.As the committee members on your Washington visit no doubt discovered, there are unmistakable signs of a closer convergence between positions in Ottawa and Washington. Both reflect negative sentiment about China. Legislators are focusing on pushing back against China on issues, which include human rights, domestic interference and Taiwan—the issues we heard about.One way of capturing this is through the famous three Cs—competition, co-operation and confrontation. In the words of Secretary Blinken, this is a China policy that is “competitive when it should be, collaborative when it can be, and adversarial when it must be”.For America, however, it is, above all, a strategic competition without end that has military, technological, diplomatic and ideological dimensions.Canada's leaders talk about the three Cs as well and in similar terms, but occasionally with a slight twist. A fourth term in some of the Canadian lexicon is coexistence. That still has supporters and reflects the engagement ambitions of an earlier era. This includes accepting the legitimacy of the People's Republic of China as a nation-state and looking for ways to live with it rather than defeat it. It implies the possibility of mutual respect and respectful dialogue beyond transactional matters. Ironically now, in the Canadian case, those channels are mainly closed.(2020)We need to get a handle on the specific areas of Canada-U.S. convergence on China policy, but also the areas of difference. On the research side, a new Wilson Center-McGill University “Canada-U.S. Commission on China” is asking two key questions: Where we are aligned, how do we co-operate with the United States? Where our interests, values and approach differ, how do we manage the differences with Washington? Topic areas include artificial intelligence, the Arctic, critical minerals, debt and governance in the global south, supply chain resilience and friendshoring, foreign interference, the prospects for co-operative security and the positioning of Canadian military assets in Asia. One evident area of disagreement that was hinted at in the early session was the matter of what kind of open, rules-based multilateral trading system we want. Canada has a special interest in that. A second is whether the scope of technological restrictions should extend beyond dual-use and military technologies in our universities and other areas. Should it also include preserving economic advantages against China? Should we control technology as a weapon?ChinaForeign policyFree tradeIndo-Pacific regionInternational cooperationInternational relationsInternational tradeScience and technologyUnited States of America81799158179916817991781799188179919817992081799218179922KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/496StéphaneBergeronStéphane-BergeronMontarvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergeronStéphane_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Bergeron: (2040)[Translation]Canada says it will challenge China in areas of profound disagreements, whether that concerns coercive behaviour, economic issues, human rights or security. In other words, what capacity do we have to challenge China?ChinaForeign policyInternational relations8179991PaulEvansPaulEvansPaulEvansPaul-EvansInterventionProf. Paul Evans: (2040)[English] The translation was interesting.Canada is not going to be able to change Chinese behaviour by calling it out, though we must do it for our own domestic purposes. On economic coercion issues, I think we can fight back in specific areas, but I think there's room to talk with China about economic coercion of great powers. It is not only China that uses economic coercion against other countries. The United States, through sanctions, is a principal player.I guess that, unlike the previous panellists, I don't think China's future is predetermined in some of these areas. In some of them, we can continue a dialogue with them about what might be rules that should be applied in a new global order.I think we have to work with third world countries, the global south.... Some of the things the Chinese are talking about are appealing. A lot of it is difficult for us, but the world's rules are no longer going to be the rules of the United States and the western democratic countries. They're an important part of the picture—we don't lose that—but the global balance of power is shifting. The Chinese are positioned on some of these issues in ways that we can push back against, but sometimes we can find areas where we can reinforce a common message.ChinaForeign policyInternational relations8179992817999381799948179995StéphaneBergeronMontarvilleKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88323DarrenFisherDarren-FisherDartmouth—Cole HarbourLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FisherDarren_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Darren Fisher: (1115)[English] Thank you for that.Sticking with recent tensions that have cropped up since we launched the strategy, what about the tensions between the governments of Canada and India? How have they impacted our ties and relationships in the Indo-Pacific region? Foreign policyIndo-Pacific region8172479AmandaStrohanAmandaStrohanAmandaStrohanAmanda-StrohanInterventionMs. Amanda Strohan: (1115)[English]I'll take that question as well.In the context of the Indo-Pacific strategy, what I would say is that this strategy, as I said, is over five years and renewable for another five years. It is a 10-year strategy. We are focused in the IPS on our long-term relationships in the region. We know that India will continue to be an important partner in that. We recognize that there will be ebbs and flows with respect to bilateral relations with many countries in the region over the course of the 10-year time horizon of the strategy. We're prepared for that. Again, the principles of the strategy remain valid.With respect to specific bilateral relations with any country, I would refer those to my colleagues potentially before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs. With respect to the Indo-Pacific strategy, we think the strategy framework continues to hold. In fact, it was designed specifically to help us navigate complications in the region over the course of 10 years. Foreign policyIndo-Pacific region817248081724818172482DarrenFisherDartmouth—Cole HarbourDarrenFisherDartmouth—Cole HarbourLouiseBlaisLouise-BlaisInterventionMs. Louise Blais (Diplomat-in-Residence, Laval University, As an Individual): (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to thank the Foreign Affairs and International Development Committee for this invitation to be with you today.The issues you are addressing are fundamental. In the absence of a comprehensive review of our foreign policy, it is important to examine Canada's current capabilities to deal with this changing world.It is therefore an honour and a privilege to share my observations with you, which are based on the experience I have gained during my long career with GAC, including my experience with Canada's last campaign for a seat on the United Nations Security Council.Distinguished members of the committee, to say that the world has changed has become a cliché. Unfortunately for Canada, it hasn't done so in a way favourable to our interests. However, what we're facing today is within our control, because it's about our inability, until now, to adapt to this changing global chessboard.Many factors are responsible for this observation. First and foremost, the bureaucratization of Global Affairs Canada has undermined its effectiveness. Indeed, the essential qualities of diplomacy such as sound analysis, intelligence gathering, international networks, negotiating skills and time spent abroad have been replaced by internal management prowess. Over the past 20 years, civil servants who have risen to high-level positions have done so predominantly on the basis of their administrative skills rather than their foreign policy experience.Equally damaging, the administrative burdens on our missions abroad mean that diplomats spend more time in embassies dealing with human resources and other internal initiatives than with diplomacy.A lack of coordination between departments on global issues has also been unfavourable. The imbalance between interdepartmental priorities sometimes directly undermines our interests. For example, a year before the vote for the UN Security Council, when Canada was a candidate, the Immigration Department implemented onerous biometric requirements for people from dozens of countries despite advice from Global Affairs Canada. It didn't improve our chances.So, how can we ensure today that Canada has the tools to navigate the current geopolitical context?First, we need a foreign policy more closely tied to our core interests and less focused on virtue-signalling. To achieve this, we need to set clear, and fewer, priorities. Canada belongs to far more international organizations than many countries of similar size. We are too dispersed. A systematic review of our commitments and a rationalization of our field of activity are called for.Secondly, we need to put foreign experience back at the heart of the skills required for senior GAC officials and heads of mission. Diplomacy is an extremely complex profession. Knowledge and skills are acquired over time, starting with junior positions in the field. This experience has no equivalent in the rest of the government apparatus. You neglect its importance at your peril.(1645)[English] I recently had the honour to contribute to a paper co-authored by Michael Manulak and Kerry Buck, entitled “Canada and the United Nations: Rethinking and Rebuilding Canada's Global Role”. It puts forward recommendations for how Canada could navigate today's more challenging context at the UN and demonstrate leadership. I'll be happy to share the full report. There are a few key recommendations relevant to today's hearing.One would be to review our UN priorities with the aim of identifying a short list of five or six focus issues. We should ensure that we communicate to our allies what we will be focused on with a view to complementing each other's work. The European Union negotiates on behalf of its members on many issues at the UN, while countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand have to stretch themselves across an increasingly vast UN agenda. We need to adapt our working methods.Thank you.BureaucracyDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyStaffingUnited Nations8147571AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89156ZiadAboultaifZiad-AboultaifEdmonton ManningConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AboultaifZiad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): (1700)[English]Thanks for all great testimonies from the witnesses.Among resources, funding, influence, credibility and opening up, there are so many things that we need to do. For Mr. Roussel, we need to be ready for the next American administration. Also, our relationships with China and India are not at their best. I would like to ask Mr. Rock and then Mr. Saint-Jacques how we are going to navigate between those two superpowers, the United States and China. They seem to basically agree on many things. Of course, they have their own plans for the future of the planet and the leadership they present. How can Canada navigate those relationships? Is there a way back to fix some of those broken relationships? Do you see any path forward?Mr. Rock is first.Canada-United States relationsChinaDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8147639814764081476418147642AliEhsassiWillowdaleAllanRockHon.AllanRockHon.Allan-RockInterventionHon. Allan Rock: (1700)[English]Thank you.I believe there is. First of all, with the Americans, it depends very much on what happens next November. As has been pointed out, we don't know what's going to turn up in the White House a year from now, and some of the prospects are quite frightening. As we like to say, the Americans aren't always right, but they're always right there, and we have to manage that. We have to deal with that.I thought the current government took a wise approach with Trump number one by deploying as many resources as we could to other levels of government—governors and members of the Senate and the House of Representatives—to make sure that Canada's presence was felt and our views were known, without having to confront the man himself. I thought that was an effective strategy. It assisted in softening up the position of the administration in the negotiation of the renewed North American Free Trade Agreement. I think that kind of artful approach, where you pick your spots and you deploy your resources laterally, is a good one.With respect to China, obviously we have to take steps to thaw before we can actually start to relate to one another. I've always felt that health—health care, public health—is a very good point of entry. I spent almost five years as Canada's minister of health. During that period, I established an annual meeting between the Canadian and the Chinese health ministries. We found that we had an enormous amount in common. They admired our public health care system. The single payer is, for them, the most effective way of deploying health for 1.3 billion people.Furthermore, they're interested in our model of community care. When I was president of the University of Ottawa, our medical school was chosen to open a medical school at the University of Shanghai—Jiao Tong. They took our curriculum. They sent their professors to our campus to learn how to teach it. They took it home and opened a medical school in Shanghai with our MD curriculum, because they want four-year MDs to practise community care and family practice. I think that kind of relationship based on common interests in health, something which is a very positive and important subject, can help open the doors, get people to relax and thaw the environment and the atmosphere so that we can make progress on bigger items. I think there are ways we can do it.Canada-United States relationsChinaDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy814764381476448147645814764681476478147648ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningGuySaint-JacquesGuy-Saint-JacquesInterventionMr. Guy Saint-Jacques: (1705)[English]In the case of the U.S.A., I would say first that of course we have to watch very closely what's going on there, but again, I think the department and the government have proven in the past that we can mount a very well-coordinated effort involving premiers as well—because there are many premiers who have good relationships with governors—to demonstrate how much prosperity we create in the U.S.In terms of dealing with difficult countries, I was encouraged when I heard Minister Joly say recently that Canada will have a “pragmatic diplomacy”. I hope by this that in fact we will have ambassadors in countries like Iran. I'm glad that we have a new ambassador in Saudi Arabia. It's important to discuss with these people—Canada-United States relationsChinaDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy81476508147651ZiadAboultaifEdmonton ManningAliEhsassiWillowdaleGuySaint-JacquesGuy-Saint-JacquesInterventionMr. Guy Saint-Jacques: (1705)[English]In the case of China, the Indo-Pacific strategy outlines a very good approach. I agree with Mr. Rock. Global health, the environment and biodiversity are good areas where we should focus. Hopefully, there will be movement on both sides of—Canada-United States relationsChinaDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy81476538147654AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/496StéphaneBergeronStéphane-BergeronMontarvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergeronStéphane_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Bergeron (Montarville, BQ): (1715)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank all the witnesses for joining us and contributing to our reflection on the future of Canadian diplomacy.Ms. Blais, Jennifer Welsh, Director of McGill University's Centre for International Peace and Security Studies, shared the following with the committee:Canadians are living in an international system that is less hospitable to our interests and values than perhaps at any time since the end of the Second World War.I understand that you share this view. What has led to this deterioration in the perception of Canadian values around the world? How can we reposition Canada in this changing context?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relations81477258147726814772781477288147729AliEhsassiWillowdaleLouiseBlaisLouiseBlaisLouise-BlaisInterventionMs. Louise Blais: (1715)[Translation]Thank you for your question.In the international context, especially the multilateral one, you have to look at the UN. Indeed, it had about fifty members in the 1950s, and, today, it has 193.The southern hemisphere has become more prominent, and is asserting itself in international fora, through negotiating groups including the Group of 77, or G77. This is a group of around 130 countries, accompanied by China, who negotiate as a bloc at the UN. They have, de facto, two-thirds of the seats at the UN. Today, Canada's influence has waned in this company, which has expanded.However, Canada hasn't helped itself in recent decades by focusing its foreign policy on exporting its values. We've been very moralistic abroad. When we talked to developing countries, we talked about what we could do for them and what they should do for themselves. We wanted to remake them in our image.Today, we realize that this doesn't serve us, in the long run. For one thing, we haven't succeeded in changing these countries, and our world is becoming increasingly autocratic. So we haven't succeeded in making the world more like Canada.Moreover, we've tripped ourselves up a bit, because, by dint of telling others what to do and talking to them on an unequal level, I think there's been some wear and tear. Now, people listen to us a lot less. Personally, I've heard heads of state say that we were not willing to listen to their priorities.I think we first need to become aware of our position on the world chessboard and talk with countries about the things that interest them. What's more, we need to succeed in developing relations with countries we don't agree with. To be successful, we need to adopt a change of tone and a change of tactics. We have often surrounded ourselves with those who had views similar to ours, but I think Canada would benefit from talking more often with Latin American countries, for example, with the smaller countries that have very important things to say and have their own sphere of influence in their region.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relations81477308147731814773281477338147734814773581477368147737StéphaneBergeronMontarvilleStéphaneBergeronMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/496StéphaneBergeronStéphane-BergeronMontarvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergeronStéphane_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Bergeron: (1720)[Translation]Mr. Roussel, first of all, good evening. I'm very happy to have you back.A number of Canada's allies, including the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia, have deemed it important to have some sort of periodic process for reviewing their foreign policies. We have no such plans. I took part in the last major review of Canada's foreign policy, in 1994. There haven't been any as complex since. On the other hand, Canada is in the process of revising its defence policy.Don't you think we're putting the cart before the horse a bit?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relations814773881477398147740LouiseBlaisStéphaneRousselStéphaneRousselStéphane-RousselInterventionDr. Stéphane Roussel: (1720)[Translation]First, good evening, Mr. Bergeron. It's good to see you again, too.As for whether thinking about defence before thinking about foreign affairs is putting the cart before the horse, in fact, I'd say the one influences the other. While it's true that defence policy is generally expected to flow from, or conform to, foreign policy, I would also respond that, in Canada's history, the two may have operated in a decoupled fashion, or that there has rarely been much effort to make them coherent.That said, let me return to your first point, namely the consultations we held on foreign policy, in Canada, until the late 1990s and the beginning of the 2000s.This model leaves me a little ambivalent. Indeed, it had the advantage of allowing Canadian society to express itself, to set its priorities, but it sometimes left, too, an impression of co-optation; the government received a series of contradictory opinions from civil society, and it only had to choose those that suited its purposes.On the other hand, there's another process I like, and that's a review every 10 years. This process is used in other states. I think Norway uses it. We set up a committee that could resemble a Canadian commission of inquiry. This committee makes recommendations to the government on how it should approach its foreign policy, as well as its defence policy, over the next few years.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relations81477418147742814774381477448147745StéphaneBergeronMontarvilleStéphaneBergeronMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1725)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.First of all, thank you very much to all of our witnesses.Thank you for being here in person, Mr. Rock. I know you have to leave, so I'm going to ask you a few questions first, before you have to go. I'm going to ask questions about current events through that diplomatic lens.I read your recent article that you wrote with Lloyd Axworthy, “In the conflict in Gaza, we must think about the children”. It was very well done. Thank you very much for writing that. You said that “Shielding children from armed conflict was once an international priority” but in recent years has fallen off Canada's priority list. You also asked the question: “Do we not all love our children, and thus want to spare them the horrors of war?”I want to ask you specifically about Gaza and the massive impact on children. We know that 7,000 to 8,000 children have been killed in the bombardments, and many more of course are at risk due to the blockade and the ongoing war. In fact, I think it's fair to say that Gaza, right now, is the most dangerous place in the world for children.In the West Bank, we know that Israel is prosecuting between 500 and 700 Palestinian children in military courts each year. Palestinian children in the occupied West Bank, like adults, face arrest, prosecution and imprisonment under an Israeli military detention system that denies them basic human rights.In your opinion, why has it taken Canada so long to call for a ceasefire when the impact on children in Gaza is so severe? What should Canada do now to reaffirm its commitment to the protection of children in places like Israel and Palestine or, in fact, in any conflict?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8147748814774981477508147751814775281477538147754AliEhsassiWillowdaleAllanRockHon.AllanRockHon.Allan-RockInterventionHon. Allan Rock: (1725)[English] I'm reluctant to second-guess any government on the timing of calling for a ceasefire. The enormous complexity of the issues is quite daunting, and I don't envy those who have to make that decision. That having been said, I was delighted to see that yesterday we formally called for a ceasefire.In accepting your point, I will say that, as the Secretary-General pointed out, Gaza has become “a graveyard for children”. It's a young population anyway. Civilians are taking the brunt of the violence, particularly women and children. It was Graça Machel who, in 1996, published a report about children and conflict. Her report gave rise to a conference that we organized here in Canada, putting children in armed conflict on the agenda. The Secretary-General appointed a special representative for children in armed conflict, and the Security Council adopted resolutions for naming and shaming countries that mistreated children. At least there was a process by which you could identify those who were committing grave violations against children in conflict. That has weakened over the years, unhappily. Now, in Gaza, it might just as well be ripped up and thrown away. We've made a mockery of all of that. One of the main reasons for having a ceasefire, apart from providing humanitarian aid, is to spare the lives of the remaining children who are there.I don't know if I'm responding to your question, but it has been a priority for Canada and for the world. It has slipped off the top of the agenda. It must be put back on the agenda. If we can agree on nothing else in this crazy world, we must at least agree that children should be spared the horrors of war.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine81477558147756814775781477588147759HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105082DaveEppDave-EppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EppDave_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dave Epp (Chatham-Kent—Leamington, CPC): (1730)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. Mr. Rock, I'll take advantage of you while you're here. At our last meeting, we heard that it's pretty difficult to have soft power if you don't have hard power. Canada's place in the world seems to be slipping on both counts. What would your advice be, or how would you come at that issue—or do you disagree with that statement?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relations814777481477758147776AliEhsassiWillowdaleAllanRockHon.AllanRockHon.Allan-RockInterventionHon. Allan Rock: (1730)[English] I think soft power has always been one of Canada's great strengths. You earn credibility through investing in defence and doing your share in terms of international defence efforts. Monsieur Saint-Jacques referred to the Arctic as a place where we need to spend more on defence, and I agree with that completely. I think we could kill two birds with one stone. First of all, we could invest money to ensure that we have defence systems in the Arctic and for the Arctic, which would at the same time help us achieve the 2% of GDP required of us by our colleagues in NATO.I think that's what we talk about when we say, “hard power”. It's the actual equipment and investing in the ships, the airplanes and the troops, and putting them on the ground where they are needed for patrols and to ensure that our sovereignty is respected.There is a link between that and our ability to be persuasive through soft power at the table, because it's a matter of credibility. If you're not respectful of your obligations for defence, if you're not pulling your weight and if you're not investing in defence systems, your credibility when you use soft power is diminished, so I think they are linked.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relations8147777814777881477798147780DaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonDaveEppChatham-Kent—Leamington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/496StéphaneBergeronStéphane-BergeronMontarvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergeronStéphane_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Bergeron: (1745)[Translation]Ambassador Saint-Jacques, the Government of Canada, in its Indo-Pacific strategy, explains that in areas of deep disagreements, we will challenge China.There seems to be a lot of emphasis on Canada's capacity to do this. Yet we have challenged Azerbaijan for its behaviour in Nagorno-Karabakh; we have chastised Israel for its lack of restraint in Gaza—with the results we know.Does Canada have a real power to comment?ChinaDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy814783581478368147837PamelaIsfeldGuySaint-JacquesGuySaint-JacquesGuy-Saint-JacquesInterventionMr. Guy Saint-Jacques: (1745)[Translation]Of course, we have to understand that our power is quite limited, but I think that what's important is to try to change China's behaviour. On this, progress has been made, and I welcome the adoption of the Declaration against Arbitrary Detention in State-to-State Relations.We are at the stage where this declaration should be given teeth, in order to punish countries that dare to use hostage-taking in the future.It's also important for Canada to work with friendly countries to try to change China's behaviour. The message is simple. We have no problem with China being a superpower, as long as it respects international law and international rules. Moreover, it must put an end to the thuggish behaviour it displays by taking people hostage or imposing coercive trade measures.ChinaDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy814783881478398147840StéphaneBergeronMontarvilleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1745)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Again, thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I want to thank Ms. Blais for bringing up the idea that the International Criminal Court has a role in prosecuting both sides of any conflict, and of course, we would expect that they would prosecute the terrorist organization that is Hamas. We were happy to see the change from the Canadian government on the vote at the United Nations, but I want to get a better understanding of how the voting happens in the UN. On November 10, at the UN General Assembly, Canada voted against a resolution that was condemning illegal settlements, going against Canada's own stated position. In response, you tweeted, Canadians need to ask our government, the rationale behind this devastating decision for Canada's standing in the world.From my experience, the [U.S.] did not ask us to side [with them]. We did this on our own. But why? Because the cost is enormous, we should be told the reason.This vote was a month ago. Do you have any further insight into why Canada would vote against its own policy at the United Nations while the illegal settlements are expanding and causing severe harm to any chance of a peace process being able to go forward?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine814784281478438147844814784581478468147847814784881478498147850AliEhsassiWillowdaleLouiseBlaisLouiseBlaisLouise-BlaisInterventionMs. Louise Blais: (1745)[English] Thank you for the question. I'm glad you raised it.Resolutions are complicated, and it's not unusual for a member state to vote against a resolution that might appear on the surface to be aligned with its own policy while sometimes it mentions things that are red lines to us. You really do have to take the resolution as a whole.I recall that with the resolution previous to the one that was passed this week, Canada tried to get an amendment in that would have made it possible for Canada to vote in favour. We ended up abstaining, and then with a different resolution we voted in favour because there was an evolution in the conflict and our position.Historically, Canada has, let's face it, been voting somewhat in isolation on a lot of the perennial Palestinian resolutions that have come up at the UN because we have said and we have felt, or the government has said and felt, that they are one-sided and that Israel is unjustifiably targeted at the UN.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8147851814785281478538147854HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1745)[English]I'm sorry to interrupt, but you did say that there's enormous cost to the vote when Canada votes against its own policies.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine8147855LouiseBlaisLouiseBlaisLouiseBlaisLouise-BlaisInterventionMs. Louise Blais: (1745)[English]I'm just coming to that. I was just quoting the government's position.There has been a cost to this. This was a factor in why we lost our last bid, because it was well known by many countries that support the Palestinian plight that Canada might not vote in alignment with them, so it was a factor. When Canada votes with the U.S., Israel and maybe a handful of other countries, I would call that isolation. The U.S. can afford to do this; it's a superpower. Canada is a middle power, and so the cost for us is higher. This is something that—Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionIsraelPalestine81478568147857HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54157SameerZuberiSameer-ZuberiPierrefonds—DollardLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZuberiSameer_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sameer Zuberi: (1755)[English]Mr. Rock spoke about Canada being bold again on the international stage. He spoke about the ICC, land mines and the human security agenda.Do you want to share any comments on how you think we can lean forward as a country?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relations81479088147909GuySaint-JacquesGuySaint-JacquesGuySaint-JacquesGuy-Saint-JacquesInterventionMr. Guy Saint-Jacques: (1755)[English]I think the value added of a diplomat—Louise alluded to this—is the quality of the networks and relationships you develop. This is extremely useful when you want to assess where a country is.I think you have to take a long-term approach. You have to develop this expertise by sending people back. For that reason, it's important to speak the local language. That's the way to have a good understanding of the country.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyInternational relations81479108147911SameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardSameerZuberiPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Ambassador. We appreciate your being with us.A few weeks ago New Democrats asked the Canadian government to answer questions about a Globe and Mail report that Kyrgyzstan has re-exported Canadian-made electric detonators to Russia. The Liberals have refused to answer this question. If it's true, those Canadian-made detonators are possibly used with land mines and could be used by Russia in their war against Ukraine. Can you tell us more about the role of Kyrgyzstan in the war and why Canada needs to take the allegations extremely seriously?Foreign policyMilitary weaponsRussiaUkraineWar81446148144615JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodYuliyaKovalivH.E.YuliyaKovalivH.E.Yuliya-KovalivInterventionMs. Yuliya Kovaliv: (1610)[English]We believe that any allegations of cases about sanctions circumvention need to be investigated and that loopholes need to be closed. As to the specific reports, I have no additional information for the specific land mines or spare parts for the land mines case, but if that is true, definitely it is worth exploring and understanding how these spare parts were exported and whether it was done through the intermediaries. We need to ask who those intermediaries are and why they committed the illegal act.Foreign policyMilitary weaponsRussiaUkraineWar81446168144617LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1720)[English]Thank you.One thing that concerns us—I asked the ambassador this question as well, but the Canadian government didn't really answer—was a report in The Globe and Mail a few weeks ago about Kyrgyzstan re-exporting Canadian-made electric detonators to Russia. These detonators are potentially being used with landmines. We didn't receive answers from the government. They could be used by Russia against Ukraine. Can you comment on the seriousness of Canada's arms export control system? Is it not working as intended? What is your perception of that?Foreign policyMilitary weaponsRussiaUkraineWar814486281448638144864OrestZakydalskyOrestZakydalskyOrestZakydalskyOrest-ZakydalskyInterventionMr. Orest Zakydalsky: (1720)[English]We were asked for comment on those reports. If these reports are true, they're deeply concerning. We've written to both the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of Public Safety to see what the situation is and whether those reports are accurate.Foreign policyMilitary weaponsRussiaUkraineWar81448658144866LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1720)[English]Did she respond?Foreign policyMilitary weaponsRussiaUkraineWar8144867OrestZakydalskyOrestZakydalskyOrestZakydalskyOrest-ZakydalskyInterventionMr. Orest Zakydalsky: (1720)[English]We have not yet received a response from the government.The only thing I will add is that one thing we keep talking to the Canadian government about is the need to ensure that sanctions are not only implemented but also enforced. Sanctions that are implemented but not enforced are not really sanctions.Foreign policyMilitary weaponsRussiaUkraineWar81448688144869LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105121YvanBakerYvan-BakerEtobicoke CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BakerYvan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yvan Baker: (1725)[English]Thanks very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.I'd like to direct my question to Mr. Michalchyshyn. I was going to ask about something else, but today in the House of Commons, a comment was made that upset me. I want to know if he has a reaction to it. The Leader of the Opposition referred to Ukraine as a faraway foreign land. We heard those comments in the lead-up to World War II from other leaders. I'm wondering if he has any comments on that. Foreign policyRussiaUkraineWar8144892JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodIhorMichalchyshynIhorMichalchyshynIhor-MichalchyshynInterventionMr. Ihor Michalchyshyn: (1725)[English]I wasn't able to hear question period today. Ukraine has been described as a close neighbour or as the easternmost province, and Canada as an oblast of Ukraine. I think our people-to-people ties are incredibly close, as committee members around the table know.I think that's a mischaracterization of the relationship in terms of the people and the history of our cultural, economic and now military co-operation. Certainly we've seen that the Canadian public is very supportive of the refugees, as Orest said—the 200,000-plus, I think, displaced persons or refugees, as we call them colloquially. The public support for increased humanitarian and military assistance continues to be strong. Our job is to maintain that consensus with the public and with Parliament, to keep working forward. Foreign policyRussiaUkraineWar814489481448958144896YvanBakerEtobicoke CentreYvanBakerEtobicoke Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1740)[English]Thank you.I want to talk about the AIIB's financing projects.A couple of years ago, a senior member of the AIIB, as reported in the Financial Times—a reputable publication—said the bank was open to funding projects under Myanmar's military junta, which is not something the Government of Canada supports. How is the government reconciling its position of having membership in a development bank whose senior members openly muse about funding projects in jurisdictions like Myanmar?Asian Infrastructure Investment BankChinaCivil and human rightsForeign policyInternational relations8142998814299981430008143001KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsJulieTrépanierJulieTrépanierJulie-TrépanierInterventionMs. Julie Trépanier (Director General, International Finance and Development Division, Department of Finance): (1745)[English] Thank you for the question.We're not aware of the AIIB being open to doing projects with the junta in Myanmar. We would have certainly, if it were the case, or if any such project is brought to the board, we would certainly—Asian Infrastructure Investment BankChinaCivil and human rightsDepartment of FinanceForeign policyInternational relations814300281430038143004MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1745)[English]I appreciate that answer.Let me give you some other examples that have happened.In 2020, a number of non-governmental organizations accused the AIIB of violating human rights and environmental standards in India when 103 families were forcibly moved to make way for a metro rail project funded by the AIIB.In the same year, similar allegations about a lack of environmental standards were made with respect to an AIIB project funded in Bangladesh. This was the Bhola power plant, where a flood occurred and a number of workers died.A year later, the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights stated that human rights had been violated in Indonesia's Mandalika tourism project, which was also funded by the AIIB, particularly with the forced displacement of people and forced resettlement.More recently, civil society organizations have alleged that there are predatory and abusive collection practices with regard to a microfinancing project in Cambodia that the AIIB funded.With all these projects, there seems to be a pattern emerging about a different style of governance compared with that of multilateral organizations and development banks such as the World Bank.In all these cases, how can that kind of funding of those kinds of projects be consistent with the government's stated foreign policy priorities?Asian Infrastructure Investment BankChinaCivil and human rightsForeign policyInternational relations81430058143006814300781430088143009814301081430118143012JulieTrépanierStevenKuhnStevenKuhnSteven-KuhnInterventionMr. Steven Kuhn: (1745)[English]The AIIB has invested in 178 projects. That is the project count I have before we paused our work. Of course, over the last six months, we haven't been engaged in reviewing projects or participating in project approvals. I can't speak to the specifics of those projects, including whether or not they were considered at the AIIB before or after the pause that we've engaged in. What I can say is that, as presented in the testimony of Mr. Pickard, the AIIB is a young institution—it's about seven years old—so one of the ways it has been engaging in project investment decisions is by doing it alongside other, more mature organizations like the World Bank or the Asian Development Bank. In fact, more than half of the projects it invests in are done alongside other institutions that have longer track records with respect to these issues.Asian Infrastructure Investment BankChinaCivil and human rightsForeign policyInternational relations81430138143014MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1745)[English] I just enumerated four projects—four out of 178. That's over 2%. That's not insignificant. These seem to fit into a model that the Obama administration predicted, which was that this was going to be a sort of strategy by the People's Republic of China to export its authoritarian model of governance throughout the Indo-Pacific region. As we are seeing projects like this getting funded through a very different lens of human rights, protection of the environment and a very different lens of due process and procedural fairness for those communities affected, it seems to me that those predictions have come true. Is the review that—Asian Infrastructure Investment BankChinaCivil and human rightsForeign policyInternational relations81430158143016StevenKuhnKenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsBalkanDevlenBalkan-DevlenInterventionDr. Balkan Devlen (Director, Transatlantic Program, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual): (1105)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to give evidence to the committee on the current state and future of Canada's diplomatic capacity in a turbulent world. The geopolitical landscape has undeniably transformed in the past decade. The return of great power competition to the centre stage, particularly between the United States and the People's Republic of China; the rise of regional powers such as India and Turkey as more assertive actors in international politics; democratic backsliding across the world; the emergence of an authoritarian axis between China, Russia and Iran; and, of course, the return of major war to Europe with Russia's unprovoked and illegal war of conquest against Ukraine, just to name a few, are key developments we witnessed in the past decade or so.Here is the unfortunate reality: It is likely to get worse in the coming years. What can Canada do in such a world?I'd like to offer the following observations today, in the time allocated to me. National interest should be the lens through which Canadian foreign policy should be formulated and pursued. Thanks to our fortunate geography, Canada's national interest manifests itself mainly in two key directions in foreign policy and foreign affairs.First, our relationship with the United States is of paramount importance to Canada's security and prosperity. In fact, it is existential. Maintaining and cultivating this special relationship, regardless of who is in power in Canada and the United States, must be the first priority. It cannot be taken for granted, and we cannot afford to be complacent and assume all will be well. Canada is and should remain a good friend and a reliable ally to the United States and be able to demonstrate this fact in words and deeds. Second, as a trading nation, our prosperity heavily depends on a well-functioning, stable and open international order. Canada should do its part in defending and maintaining such an order. This in practice means working with our allies and partners in multilateral and minilateral settings, and contributing to their prosperity and security.Doing so, however, requires bringing something tangible to the table, rather than just words, to enhance the security and prosperity of others. In Canada's case, let me suggest that our natural resources, from energy to agriculture to critical minerals, are our biggest advantage and leverage. Canada is, in most cases, in the top five in terms of production, reserves or exporting what the world wants and needs. Our foreign policy priority should be having the necessary infrastructure, policies and capabilities to get those resources to world markets. This would reduce our allies' and partners' reliance on authoritarian or unstable regimes for their energy security and the critical minerals that are essential for energy transition, while helping to feed the world's most vulnerable. This is an area where Canada can make a difference in the world while increasing our prosperity. I'd like to conclude by saying that interest-based foreign policy does not mean ignoring values. In fact, interests are downstream from values. Our fundamental national interest is the protection of Canada's security and prosperity. However, it is not limited only to physical security and material well-being. It is also about our ability to continue to enjoy and practise our way of life, including values and rights, such as the rule of law, human rights, democracy, free markets and freedom of expression, press and assembly. Defending them against threats, foreign and domestic, is in the Canadian national interest.This means working with allies and partners in international fora with intention, and not blindly following the convention. We should identify the multilateral organizations that continue to advance our interests and double down on them. At the same time, we should have a hard look at which tables we do not need to be at and leave them when they no longer serve our purposes. It also means thinking creatively about international groupings, including minilateral arrangements of like-minded states centred around specific issues.(1110) To quote from a recent piece I wrote with two co-authors:Canada needs to pivot its approach. While there’s pride in our traditional image of being a cooperative country, the reality is that trying to be everywhere often means being nowhere. It goes on:With limited resources, we must take a discerning stance on where to invest Canada’s energies and make sure that the intended results are achieved. Thank you very much for the opportunity, and I am looking forward to your questions.Agriculture, environment, fisheries and natural resourcesCanada-United States relationsDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyNational security813897881389838138984AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1120)[English] When the minister comes out and makes statements like the one she made a couple of weeks ago about being honest brokers and being very active, do you think we're spreading ourselves too thin? Do you think we're trying to do too much, and not having a bang on anything?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8139039BalkanDevlenBalkanDevlenBalkanDevlenBalkan-DevlenInterventionDr. Balkan Devlen: (1120)[English]I would say that we are spreading ourselves too thin, yes, especially today, with the rise of regional powers and others. This is not the world of the 1960s or 1970s. Honestly, no one is really looking towards Canada to be an honest broker. You need to be able to bring something to the table, to be able to have influence and to contribute meaningfully to the security and economic interests of other countries for them to listen to you. We cannot continue to lecture others and pretend that we are bringing something to the table.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8139040RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince AlbertArdiImseisArdi-ImseisInterventionDr. Ardi Imseis (Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual): (1210)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. In brief, I have three simple points.First, Canada's declared commitment to the rules-based international legal order is crucial to maintaining its moral standing in the world. Upholding international law as the only normative yardstick on the international plane is essential if Canada's future diplomacy initiative is to succeed.Second, for Canada's declared commitment to international law to result in concrete diplomatic and reputational gains on the international plane, it must both be and be seen by others to be credible. Credibility is everything, and in a world where geopolitical tumult is on the rise, it is in Canada's national interest to cultivate and protect its credibility.Third, by all objective accounts, unfortunately, Canada has failed to maintain its credibility when it comes to upholding international law in practice. This is evidenced by very clear double standards applied by Canada, which derive from an apparent prioritization of political preferences and alliances over the universal application of norms and the rule of law.To illustrate, let us consider Canada's position on two of the most high-profile conflicts raging today: occupied Ukraine and occupied Palestine. In Ukraine, Canada has appropriately and consistently affirmed its opposition to Russia's aggression, annexation and occupation. Canada's position is rooted in two key principles of international law: first, the prohibition on territorial conquest, and second, the obligation to respect the right of peoples to self-determination. Because these norms are peremptory in nature, derogation from them is not permitted in international law. As such, all states, including Canada, have an obligation neither to recognize their violation nor to do anything to aid or assist them.In Palestine, while Canada's official position remains that Israel is an occupying power there and that Israeli settlements are unlawful, the government has pursued a policy that aids and assists in the maintenance of this violation. It does this by allowing for the duty-free import of Israeli settlement products under the Canada-Israel free trade agreement. Under CIFTA, Israeli territory is defined in a manner that includes the occupied Palestinian territory, thereby violating the prohibition on territorial conquest and the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination. The Attorney General of Canada now takes the position that it is reasonable to label Israeli settlement products as “products of Israel” when they are imported into Canada, even though these products are actually produced in occupied Palestine.On its face, CIFTA is an unlawful treaty under international law for being in violation of the two peremptory norms that I earlier noted. In addition, the terms of CIFTA do not comport with Canada's obligations under Security Council Resolution 2334 “to distinguish, in [its] relevant dealings, between the territory of the State of Israel and the territories occupied since 1967”.Canada is also clearly in breach of its obligation to respect, and to ensure respect of, the terms of the fourth Geneva Convention, as well as the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court in this respect, which identify settlements as war crimes. These conventions have been incorporated into the domestic legislation of Canada, as you all know. Given the unprecedented situation in Palestine now, I must raise two further points about Canada's position that do clear harm to its reputation globally. The first is Canada's position that despite the crisis of impunity that prevails in the Middle East, Palestine should not be allowed to seek redress at the International Criminal Court or the International Court of Justice. These mechanisms are central in upholding the rules-based international legal order, given they encourage states to resolve disputes pacifically rather than through the use of force. If anything is apparent from the current events, we need more, not less law. We need more pacific dispute resolution, not less of it. Why, then, would Canada actively take measures to oppose Palestine's recourse to justice through these mechanisms? Relatedly, some two months into the most recent hostilities, which have resulted in the killing of over 18,000 Palestinians—two-thirds of whom are women and children—1,200 Israelis and the injury of 50,000 Palestinians and 5,000 Israelis, it is inexplicable that Canada refuses to join the majority of states in calling for a general ceasefire. With every day that passes, hundreds more are killed and millions remain subjected to starvation as a tool of war. Gaza is being razed through wholesale indiscriminate Israeli bombardment, and the spectre of permanent forcible transfer of all 2.3 million Gazans out of Gaza looms large. Surely, if peace is to prevail, an immediate cessation of hostilities is the least Canada could and should be calling for.(1215)Thank you for your time. I'll conclude there. I'm happy to take questions in the Q and A. Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policyGazaInter-American Convention Against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives, and Other Related MaterialsInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionInternational lawIsraelPalestine81392188139219813922081392218139222AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/496StéphaneBergeronStéphane-BergeronMontarvilleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BergeronStéphane_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Bergeron: (1230)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Robertson, you were present during the discussion we had a few moments ago, with the representatives of the Société nationale de l'Acadie.In an article published in Policy magazine in May 2022, you wrote that the government should fully implement the recommendations of the Senate report entitled "Cultural Diplomacy at the Front Stage of Canada’s Foreign Policy", and particularly the recommendation pertaining to the establishment of a global cultural diplomacy strategy that would be provided with resources and then assessed afterwards.Can you tell us more about that?Cultural policyDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8139316813931781393188139319AliEhsassiWillowdaleColinRobertsonColinRobertsonColin-RobertsonInterventionMr. Colin Robertson: (1230)[English] Well, I think that Senate report was excellent. Throughout my career, cultural diplomacy, public diplomacy, was a big piece of what we did. It needs to be funded properly, though. As we heard again in this committee, the funding for these programs has been eviscerated and they don't take place, yet they are hugely valuable. I was posted in Los Angeles. We did a major campaign to try to win the Oscar for one of our great films that came out of Quebec—Denys Arcand's film. We were successful by working closely with the Quebec office there, and with the Canadian performers. This raised our profile, because it then allowed me to go in and talk about other things, like the meat and potatoes trade and investment. If we're excellent in culture, then they think that this country has something. This country does have superb culture. I endorse that Senate report, but unfortunately it's fallen by the wayside. I hope that doesn't happen to the other Senate report, which has just come out. Cultural policyDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy81393208139321813932281393238139324StéphaneBergeronMontarvilleStéphaneBergeronMontarvilleJenniferWistrandJennifer-WistrandInterventionDr. Jennifer Wistrand (Deputy Director, Kennan Institute, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, As an Individual): (1220)[English] Dear members of Parliament, thank you for the invitation to appear before you today to discuss matters related to your ongoing study of security at the borders between Azerbaijan and Armenia.In my opening statement, I will briefly outline some points that I believe are important. I would be happy to go into more detail about these points, as well as other points that are of interest to you, during the question-and-answer session that follows.Since Azerbaijan's September 19 military offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, which resulted in the de facto government of the breakaway region surrendering, Azerbaijan's and Armenia's leaders, President Ilham Aliyev of Azerbaijan and Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan of Armenia, have been seriously discussing the conditions necessary to establish a durable peace between their two states. Long-term peace is possible. However, it's premature to think that a comprehensive peace agreement can or should be developed at this time. A series of pre-negotiations or partial peace agreements that focus on specific security, humanitarian and other issues would lay the necessary groundwork for the two sides to reach the point of being able to develop a comprehensive peace agreement that could resonate both among the countries' elected officials and among everyday Azerbaijanis and Armenians, who have been taught to believe, over the last 30 years, that the “other” is their existential enemy.Some of the security, humanitarian and other issues that need to be addressed in the preliminary agreements that are developed are the exchange of all Azerbaijani and Armenian prisoners; mutual recognition of all territorial boundaries between Azerbaijan and Armenia; support for Armenians who left Nagorno-Karabakh as refugees following the September 19 military offensive and who would like to integrate into Armenia; support for Azerbaijanis who became internally displaced persons, or IDPs, following the 1992-94 war and who would like to return to Nagorno-Karabakh; protections for Armenians who would like to remain in, or return to, Nagorno-Karabakh, i.e., ethnic, religious and linguistic minority rights; protection of Armenian cultural heritage sites in Nagorno-Karabakh; and shared official terminology for all administrative units in Nagorno-Karabakh.Additionally, a mutually acceptable mediator is needed. Between 1992 and 2022, the OSCE Minsk Group, which was co-chaired by the United States, France and Russia, regularly met with its Azerbaijani and Armenian counterparts; however, the group's successes were limited. For example, the entity that succeeded in brokering the ceasefire between Azerbaijan and Armenia in November 2020 was not the OSCE Minsk Group, but rather Russia. Russia was the only country that subsequently sent peacekeeping troops to the region. Since 2022, the European Council, under the leadership of Charles Michel, has begun to negotiate between President Aliyev and Prime Minister Pashinyan.Unfortunately, there is no one group, council or country that is best placed to mediate. The United States, France and Russia have large Armenian diaspora populations, which renders them potentially biased in the eyes of Azerbaijan. France's decision to increase its military support for Armenia in the wake of the September 19 military offensive would seem to justify Azerbaijan's concerns. Armenia and Russia have historically had a strong relationship. This has led Azerbaijan to question the latter's ability to be an impartial arbiter. However, the Russian peacekeeping troops' failure to maintain the Lachin corridor between Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh, beginning in December of last year, combined with their failure to prevent the September 19 military offensive, has prompted Armenia to question Russia's interventions as well.Armenia's and Turkey's lack of diplomatic relations, in the face of Azerbaijan's and Turkey's strong relationship, eliminates the possibility of a Turkish mediator. Georgia is home to both minority Azerbaijani and minority Armenian populations, and for 30 years, it has served as neutral ground for Azerbaijanis and Armenians who have wanted to bridge their differences. Georgia could negotiate between its neighbours, but its unresolved territorial disputes with Russia over Abkhazia and South Ossetia might influence its perspective.Canada could play the mediator role. Canadian diplomats have the standing and skills to do so. However, like the United States, France and Russia, Canada has a sizable Armenian diaspora population. Canada might be better placed to contribute humanitarian aid and development support to Armenian refugees and Azerbaijani IDPs in both Armenia and Azerbaijan.(1225) The sooner countries are perceived to cease favouring one side over the other in this conflict, the sooner Azerbaijan and Armenia will be ready to develop a comprehensive peace agreement that can hold.Thank you.ArmeniaAzerbaijanBordersDisplaced personsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionNagorno-KarabakhPrisoners of warRepublic of GeorgiaSecurity8110754AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdaleAdamChapnickAdam-ChapnickInterventionDr. Adam Chapnick (Professor, Defence Studies, Canadian Forces College, As an Individual): (1735)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the invitation to be here. I thank you also for your service to Canadians, all of you who stand for election. It is a noble act, and I salute your courage. I salute your resilience in these times, and I salute your commitment to our country.You've asked me to speak about Canada's diplomatic capacity: Do we as a country have the personnel and supports in place to promote and defend our national interests at home and around the world?The objective answer to part of this question can be found in the statistics that folks from Global Affairs Canada can provide the committee. I will leave that to them. I will instead reflect on two more subjective capacity issues that I hope you will take into consideration during your deliberations. One is national ambition on the world stage, and the other is the value of diplomatic agility.The very question of whether Global Affairs Canada has the capacity to, and I quote the committee, “demonstrate leadership within key multilateral organizations” suggests a level of foreign policy ambition that is not necessarily derived from the national interest.Canada makes up just under one-half of 1% of the world's population, and we rely on international trade to grow our economy. We do not have the capacity, be that in terms of population, in terms of independent economic power or in terms of military might, to impose our will on others, and efforts to do so often risk undermining the relationships we must cultivate in order to maximize our security and prosperity. We must defend and seek to preserve as much of the current international order as we can while keeping in mind that foreign policy is not an exercise in making Canadians feel good about themselves. Rather than leading internationally, it is often, although not always, in our interest to allow others the spotlight instead. Such a pragmatic approach to defending the national interest requires seasoned, well-educated, multilingual diplomats willing to do the grunt work that keeps the global order functioning. We must take on positions in international organizations that no one else wants. We must participate actively in the meetings that no one enjoys. We must pay our dues on time and in full, no matter who else does. We must ensure that states friendly to us remain committed to multilateral solutions to global problems. For this, I am confident that the capacity exists. I worry more that it is sometimes diverted to unnecessary efforts to lead.Similarly, I am less concerned with Canada's capacity to, and I quote the committee again, “plan ahead for future geopolitical shifts, crises, and opportunities” than I am with the ability of our foreign service officials to pivot in response to global disruptions outside of our control. No amount of planning will prevent more powerful external forces from shaping and reshaping the international environment in which we must operate. Better, then, that we privilege adaptability, flexibility and relationship building, and that we do so modestly and with humility.In sum, let us focus on the capacity to do the little things right, rather than trying too hard to be great. Thank you. Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentDiplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098495AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong (Wellington—Halton Hills, CPC): (1810)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you to our witnesses for appearing. I'd like to direct my questions to you, Dr. Welsh. Thank you for appearing. It's good to see you again. I note that while we've had a defence policy since 2004, which is currently being updated, we've not had a national security policy since 2004 and, as you pointed out, we've not had a comprehensive foreign policy review since 2005, an initiative I believe you led way back when, under the government of Paul Martin. I'm particularly interested in getting your take on how we should approach a foreign policy review. As you know, the government took some time to publish an Indo-Pacific strategy. If the Government of Canada is going to build on that, how should we divide the rest of the world geographically to accomplish other strategies? Should there be a Euro-Atlantic strategy and then—I know this term if falling out of use—maybe a global south strategy? How would you divide the rest of the world geographically so at least we have a written document from which everybody can be working?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy80986138098614809861580986168098617AliEhsassiWillowdaleJenniferWelshJenniferWelshJennifer-WelshInterventionDr. Jennifer Welsh: (1810)[English]Thanks so much for the question. As you can imagine, I've given this a lot of thought. I can also understand the concern of some about the enormous investment of time required to do a systematic foreign policy review, and I've heard our ambassadors and civil servants say we need to move beyond talking about foreign policy and actually do something about it, and this would just mire us in another internal exercise. The counter to that is that the world has shifted so much and we seem to be careening from event to event without an overarching framework. While there were some limitations to the Indo-Pacific strategy, I think it did try to provide that framework within which specific decisions could be made. We should also give some consideration to what other states have done and how other states have demonstrated to us how foreign policy change is possible. We keep—Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy809861880986198098620MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1810)[English]How would you group the rest of the world?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098621JenniferWelshJenniferWelshJenniferWelshJennifer-WelshInterventionDr. Jennifer Welsh: (1810)[English]I wouldn't create a number of regional strategies. Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098622MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsJenniferWelshJennifer-WelshInterventionDr. Jennifer Welsh: (1810)[English]I just don't think that is a productive way. I would provide an overarching framework within which you would refer to the Indo-Pacific strategy.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098624MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1810)[English]Okay, I got you. Prime Minister Martin tasked the Government of Canada internally with coming up with a comprehensive foreign policy review. My understanding is that at the time he got frustrated and so he turned to you to lead one. Would you recommend that a comprehensive review be led externally, as was done by you, or do you think it should be led internally?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy809862580986268098627JenniferWelshJenniferWelshJenniferWelshJennifer-WelshInterventionDr. Jennifer Welsh: (1810)[English]I don't think it should be led externally, in an ideal world. It should come from government with perhaps external involvement, though in an advisory function. It's less than ideal to parachute someone in. Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098628MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1810)[English]It sounds as though you're speaking from experience.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098629JenniferWelshJenniferWelshJenniferWelshJennifer-WelshInterventionDr. Jennifer Welsh: (1810)[English]Yes, but I do appreciate that this is a very live debate, and I think we have to take great care in how we pursue it.I just want to make one quick comment to you as well. As you'll remember, the 2005 effort was defence diplomacy and development together, and I question whether that is the right approach this time. There are real pros and cons. As Professor Chapnick suggested, when we have a defence policy update that is overdue, we need to see it, and I don't think we necessarily need to integrate in quite the same way as we tried to do in 2005.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy80986308098631MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25488MichaelChongHon.Michael-ChongWellington—Halton HillsConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChongMichaelD_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michael Chong: (1815)[English]How much time do you think this should take: six months or a year?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098632JenniferWelshJenniferWelshJenniferWelshJennifer-WelshInterventionDr. Jennifer Welsh: (1815)[English]It should certainly take no more than a year. With a very rigorous process that's carefully facilitated with good analysis, it need not take more than a year.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098633MichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton HillsMichaelChongHon.Wellington—Halton Hills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105082DaveEppDave-EppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EppDave_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dave Epp (Chatham-Kent—Leamington, CPC): (1825)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses for their excellent testimony today.I'd like to begin with Dr. Chapnick. We heard about the status of Canada's soft power today. Recently, a number of us had the opportunity to hear one of Canada's leading international voices in response to the question of Canada's status, internationally. This voice chided us and said that Canada should do less preaching and uphold its international commitments if it wants to secure a greater voice internationally.Dr. Chapnick, would you agree with that statement?Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy80986848098685809868680986878098688AliEhsassiWillowdaleAdamChapnickAdamChapnickAdam-ChapnickInterventionDr. Adam Chapnick: (1825)[English]I would agree that we've had a habit over the last 15 to 20 years of using rhetoric as foreign policy. I don't think that is effective, at all.However, I don't think the reason to cut back on the rhetoric is so that we have more influence. I think the reason you cut back on the rhetoric is that this is not how diplomacy works, and it's not helpful. If we end up with more influence, wonderful, but the point is that it's just bad diplomatic practice for any government to toot its own horn and criticize when it's unwilling to take the same criticism itself. It's just not good practice.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy80986898098690DaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonDaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonJenniferWelshJennifer-WelshInterventionDr. Jennifer Welsh: (1825)[English]I'd largely agree that it is much more important for us to be on the ground making a difference than relying on rhetoric and being concerned about our place in the world. Sometimes I like to say that we've made it too much about us: Are we part of this club? Are we being neglected? Are we getting credit? This is not the behaviour of a grown-up power. I think we need to be much more focused on the results and the pursuit of our interests and values. That's also a matter of having a certain amount of consistency, as Professor Kersten talked about.I'll say one thing in closing. I find it curious that we continue to talk about the rules-based order and preserving it. That particular rhetoric risks putting Canada on the side of the status quo. There are many countries around the world that feel the rules-based order has, at times, served up injustice, inequity and hierarchy. I think it's much more important to talk about a rules-based order, one that involves some of our current rules and also reforms. If we spoke more in that open-ended way, inviting discussion about how the system can be improved, I think it would get us much further.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy809869280986938098694DaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonDaveEppChatham-Kent—Leamington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105082DaveEppDave-EppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EppDave_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dave Epp: (1830)[English]Thank you.I'll follow up on that. Canada's investment in its international footprint is considerably lower than that of many of our allies. We are involved in many multilateral fora. In an ideal world, we would just increase our investment. If there's too much pressure to go that route, would you shrink our presence multilaterally and be more focused, or would you insist on further investment in the various places where our feet can tread?I'll start with Dr. Welsh and then go to Dr. Chapnick.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy8098695809869680986978098698JenniferWelshJenniferWelshJenniferWelshJennifer-WelshInterventionDr. Jennifer Welsh: (1830)[English]I think we need more investment, as the report indicates. We need more of a multilateral presence at the tables that matter. Of course, choices have to be made about where to engage most heavily. As I intimated, we need to be very alert to the new institutional forums that are starting to pop up and that, frankly, we also see the U.S. being very interested in.The reality is that some of the traditional multilateral processes are not going to deliver results in a timely way. For example, those of you following the negotiations in Geneva on the so-called pandemic treaty may know it's a very slow process that may not yield a better system of responding to the next pandemic. We might need to look at something much more innovative.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy80986998098700DaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonDaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonAdamChapnickAdam-ChapnickInterventionDr. Adam Chapnick: (1830)[English]I recognize there probably won't be more money, so I won't tell you that I would just ask for more money.My concern is about our ability to pivot. Events take place that are outside of our control. We don't control much about the world order today. As a result, I want to be everywhere. I want to be everywhere with good people, even if it's not as many people as I would like to have. I don't want to trust other states' intelligence when something happens in a place where we didn't expect it to happen. We can pick winners, but historically, governments haven't been very good at picking winners on just about any issue. I would rather maintain as broad a presence as possible with professionals who are good at assessing situations and feeding back in so we can pivot on a dime.Diplomacy and diplomatsForeign policy809870280987038098704DaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonAliEhsassiWillowdalePaulHagermanPaul-HagermanInterventionMr. Paul Hagerman (As An Individual): (0855)[English]Good morning.Canada is no longer walking with giants. We used to be able to count on giants in the world stage, like the U.S. and the U.K., to help us navigate global turmoil, but no longer. With global crises increasing, Canada must forge its own foreign policy responses. Canada's development assistance is a big part of how the world sees us. Canadian aid is building stability and prosperity around the world, and it's making friends for Canada, but we're a below-average aid donor, and that aid was cut further in last year's budget, despite this government's promise to increase aid every year. We're turning our back on the world. That will cost us.In budget 2024, Canada should restore aid and recommit to annual increases, and Canada should make resilient food systems a priority in the aid budget. I won't go into detail on resilient food systems. Joy from GRAN did a great job on that just a few minutes ago.Canada is already a giant in domestic agriculture and food. We could also be a giant in the world by ramping up support for food systems in our aid programs.Thank you.Foreign policyPre-budget consultations805831380583148058315805831680583178058318AlexandreRogerPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleKaterynaLytvynenkoKateryna-LytvynenkoInterventionMs. Kateryna Lytvynenko (Humanitarian Policy and Advocacy Manager, Save the Children): (1120)[English] Honourable chairman, vice-chairman and members of the subcommittee, members of Parliament and the international community, and colleagues, thank you for inviting Save the Children to speak today on such an important and complex issue as the forcible transfer of children from Ukraine to Russia.The best place for children is with their families and their communities. In a humanitarian crisis, there is so much upheaval and uncertainty for children that it can be difficult to know if a child has an existing family, and even if they don't, it could be traumatic to move them out of the country and culture that they are familiar with.That is why Save the Children believes efforts must be made to reunite unaccompanied children with their family members. All means should be used to trace and unite unaccompanied children with their families and local communities, accounting for their best interests.We don't know the exact number of children affected by the forced transfers from Ukraine to Russia since February 2022. A range of numbers have been provided by the officials in Russia and Ukraine, who reference from 2,000 children to 20,000 confirmed cases respectively.We know that some of these children are in Russia. Some of them are in non-government-controlled areas of Ukraine. Some of the children have come from institutions and some not, which complicates the understanding of the guardianship of these children and the reunification mechanisms.This is a complex situation that requires complex solutions and clear prioritization of the needs of the children in line with the principle of their best interests.Although we cannot say for certain the scale of the issue and how many children have been affected, we do know that as time passes, the situation becomes increasingly complex for every single child. Canada can play a big role in finding a solution. The cases of many of these children may be complicated, but that does not absolve anyone of the responsibility. It is crucial to support accountability efforts and ensure that all accountability mechanisms include child expertise.As accountability processes continue, diplomatic efforts must be directed towards finding solutions and protection for these children in the meantime. To date, the most effective way to reunite children with their families in Ukraine has been through the grassroots efforts of civil society organizations. They help families trace their children and help the parents and legal guardians to take a long and dangerous journey to Russia or to non-government-controlled territories of Ukraine to bring back children themselves. We know how long, difficult and sometimes unsuccessful these processes can be, since Save the Children supports such initiatives through our partners on the ground. Given the absence of political dialogue between Ukraine and Russia, the mechanism of transferring children cannot be regulated, and legal measures for the return of children deported will remain ad hoc and limited in effectiveness and skill. Technical dialogue between ombuds institutions and relevant ministries in Ukraine and Russia needs to be established as a matter of urgency to fulfill children's rights and facilitate reunification with their legal guardians.However, we understand that there may be a long wait for Ukraine and Russia to establish direct dialogue on this issue, and this is time that children don't have. Canada can play a role in finding a third country to facilitate the reunification process. We need to help find the states that would be able to promote further dialogue on this issue. We have seen successful cases of negotiating prisoner-of-war exchanges by third parties as well as the recent return of several children from Russia to Ukraine facilitated by Qatar.I would like to again stress the importance of accounting for the best interests of the child during the processes of return and reunification. Serving the best interests of the child is only possible when we examine every single case. In order to do that, a centralized tracking and information management system is needed to ensure the whereabouts, guardianship status and well-being of each child.International donors can prioritize funding child protection and tracing to support the restoration of family ties.In closing, I would like to again thank you for the opportunity to address you today. I welcome any future opportunities to speak on this issue.Thank you.ChildrenDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersFamily reunificationForeign policyRussiaSave the ChildrenUkraineWar80380418038044FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesFayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105121YvanBakerYvan-BakerEtobicoke CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BakerYvan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yvan Baker: (1155)[English] [Member spoke in Ukrainian, interpreted as follows:] First of all, I would like to say thank you. My name is Yvan Baker. I am a member of Parliament. I am grateful for your bravery and courage, that you are today with us, that you shared what you suffered through. Please know that we will work to help you, to help Ukraine.I would like to ask Vladyslav, Anastasiia and Kseniia this: What would you like? What are you asking us as members of Parliament? What would you like us, as politicians in Canada, to know? What would you like us to do to help children who are now in Russia or in Russian-occupied Ukrainian territories?ChildrenDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersFamily reunificationForeign policyInformation disseminationLanguage other than official languageRussiaUkraineUkrainianWar803816180381628038163FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesDenysBerezhnyiKaterynaRashevskaKateryna-RashevskaInterventionMs. Kateryna Rashevska (Legal Expert, Regional Center for Human Rights, Save Ukraine): (1200)[English] Thank you.Distinguished audience, thank you for having me here.I can add something as per the role of Canada in this process of the repatriation and rehabilitation of the Ukrainian children and of restoring justice. Canada is the head of the Group of Friends on Children and Armed Conflict at the United Nations. That's is probably enough to help us towards the United Nations General Assembly resolution on the repatriation of Ukrainian children, because we need to push the Russian Federation to comply with its international obligations. Also, we need to recognize the political indoctrination and re-education of Ukrainian children as a serious violation of children's rights committed during armed conflict, because without this recognition, the Russian Federation will continue this policy.Of course, we need to not only repatriate Ukrainian children but also rehabilitate them. That is why we need to support the initiative by the Trust Fund for Victims in the ICC and use their assistance mandate and implement this policy for rehabilitation and reintegration even before the verdict of the ICC.Thank you.ChildrenDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersForeign policyRussiaSave UkraineUkraineWar803817980381808038181803818280381838038184YvanBakerEtobicoke CentreYvanBakerEtobicoke Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Surrey—Newton, Lib.)): (1530)[English] I call the meeting to order.Welcome to meeting number 81 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Today, we are returning to our study of the government's response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan.For the first hour, I'm pleased to welcome two officials from the Department of National Defence. They are Major-General Greg Smith, director general of international security policy; and Major-General Paul Prévost, director of staff, strategic joint staff.Major-Generals, welcome to both of you.They have a request. The witnesses want to have a hard stop at 4:30 p.m.You will each have five minutes to deliver your remarks. Please, go ahead.AfghanistanForeign policy803081680308178030818803081980308208030821GregSmithGregSmithGreg-SmithInterventionMajor-General Greg Smith (Director General, International Security Policy, Department of National Defence): (1530)[English] Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to appear today to update you on the government's response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan.As was stated, I'm Major-General Greg Smith. I am the director general of international security policy at the Department of National Defence. In this regard, I'm responsible for managing and strengthening Canada's international bilateral and multilateral defence relationships.I am joined by Major-General Paul Prévost, director of the strategic joint staff. Major-General Prévost advises the chief of the defence staff on Canadian Armed Forces operations and is responsible for interdepartmental coordination for operations where the Canadian Armed Forces support a federal effort.Turning to the special committee's report on Afghanistan, National Defence is implicated in recommendations one, two and 18.(1535)[Translation]Recommendation 1 calls for the government to re‑examine the lessons from our mission in Afghanistan and apply those in future planning and response. Throughout Operation Aegis—our evacuation mission in Afghanistan—National Defence worked closely with Global Affairs, Immigration and 13 allies to evacuate Canadian citizens and Afghan nationals, providing strategic airlift capabilities to help bring them to safety.The Canadian Armed Forces provided these capabilities in a volatile environment, and we contributed to an international air-bridge that allowed the evacuation of approximately 3,700 individuals from Kabul. Following the operation, we conducted reviews to identify areas for improvement in relevant policies, programs and operations. These reviews reinforced the importance of such close coordination among partners.National Defence is applying these lessons in ongoing operations, such as our support for non-combatant evacuations from Israel. Indeed, National Defence is ensuring the logistical feasibility and safety of these evacuations through collaboration with local, regional and international allies and partners.[English]Recommendation two of the report stressed that, during crises, interdepartmental coordination must be established rapidly to respond effectively. Interdepartmental coordination is constant in the federal government. National Defence participates in regular coordination meetings at the deputy minister, assistant deputy minister, director general and working levels. Ad hoc meetings are convened when a crisis is unfolding or seems imminent.[Translation]Recommendation 18 concerns our support to federal efforts to assist those who supported Canada's mission in Afghanistan. We are collaborating with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to help resettle 40,000 eligible Afghans by the end of 2023 by assessing whether applicants or their families had a significant relationship with National Defence.We are proud of what the CAF accomplished in Afghanistan and are implementing the report's recommendations in all activities to the greatest extent possible.[English]I look forward to your questions. Thank you for your time.AfghanistanCanadian ForcesDepartment of National DefenceEvacuationForeign policyInterdepartmental relationsRefugeesSettlement of immigrants80308228030823803082480308258030826803082780308288030829803083080308318030832SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): (1535)[English]Thank you, Chair.Major-General Smith and Major-General Prévost, thank you for your service and thank you for being here today.As part of our study on Operation Aegis and the evacuation of Afghanistan, there were some significant irregularities that came to light regarding the issuance of template visa documents and facilitation letters via Senator Marilou McPhedran. I am wondering if any one of you, or your broader staff, authorized Mr. George Young, the former Liberal chief of staff to the minister, to issue template visa documents to Senator McPhedran.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030836803083780308388030839SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMajor-General Paul Prévost (Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence): (1535)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.We're aware of those allegations. Based on those allegations, we've done an internal review at National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. No officials inside the defence department or the Canadian Armed Forces were involved in the production or the transmission of facilitation letters.AfghanistanDepartment of National DefenceEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees80308428030843GregSmithMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1535)[English]Thank you.Were any of your staff aware that Mr. Young had sent this document to Senator McPhedran?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees80308448030845PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1540)[English]Through our internal review, Mr. Chair, none of our staff was aware of any facilitation letters being produced.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030846MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1540)[English]Are you aware of any mechanisms that would be in place for someone like Mr. Young, a ministerial staff member, to issue official government documents to senators to use in this situation?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030847PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1540)[English]Mr. Chair, I'm not aware of any process in that regard.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030848MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1540)[English]Did any of your staff receive any formal notification or any official communications when Mr. Young issued the document to the senator?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030849PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1540)[English]Mr. Chair, we didn't receive anything. We only found out, months after, through those allegations, that facilitation letters may have been provided.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030850MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1540)[English]You did mention that you went through an exercise to undertake lessons learned and best practices. Unfortunately, I think this situation requires best practices. I find it unfortunate that there haven't been any consequences levelled. I know that's not within your staff's purview.Have you provided any advice to the government on things like tightening up protocols to ensure that type of communication between ministerial staff and third parties, in terms of issuing government documents, won't happen again?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees80308518030852PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1540)[English]With regard to facilitation letters and the process employed during Operation Aegis, it probably would be for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to look into those processes. I think the processes inside government to ensure that there's a proper separation between the political staff and the officials are in place.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030853MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1540)[English]Thank you.For me, I do have a concern that what happened in that circumstance could have put Canada's armed forces, the people who are serving, at risk, given the potential lack of security screening and whatnot.Has your staff, as part of your review, flagged any concerns in this regard to the government or provided any potential measures to be put in place to ensure this doesn't happen again?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees803085480308558030856PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1540)[English]In the case of this operation, I'm not going to speculate on the security of our forces on the sole fact that a facilitation letter may have been provided. For that operation, it was very fluid on the ground. As long as IRCC had a name to give us and the person presenting themselves around Hamid Karzai airport was on the list that was provided by IRCC, those were the people we let through. I'm not too sure how the facilitation letters played into that system. The people we let through the gate and let through all the way to another location were all vetted by IRCC.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030857MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1540)[English]Would you suggest that having security screening measures in place to ensure the safety of all personnel involved would be a prudent recommendation for this committee to make in terms of future operations?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees8030858PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1540)[English]That's a good question, actually. That's exactly what we do.Right now, as you're aware, we're very involved in the crisis in the Middle East. There have been other instances, for instance in Sudan last year, where we had to evacuate Canadian citizens and members of embassies. The security protocols are in place, coordinated by the security agencies, IRCC and Global Affairs, to ensure that the members who get on Canadian Armed Forces airplanes for further movement are all vetted by our security system.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees80308598030860MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1540)[English]I guess there's just a bit of dissonance between the statement you just made and the previous one saying, in the case of Operation Aegis, that it was fluid and that you were relying on IRCC to do some of the screening.Where does the buck stop right now in terms of screening? Is it IRCC or you? What sorts of mechanisms are in place to ensure there's information sharing and adequate...? It just seems like there's a bit of a gap between those two statements.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees80308618030862PaulPrévostSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1540)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try to do this quickly.Aegis was very different from any other situation we had faced before. I think people will remember how the situation was dire in Afghanistan. We had an end date to get as many Afghans as possible out of harm's way with no intent to return to the country. Every measure we could take, with some mitigation put in place to allow those Afghans to make it to the airplanes, was taken with a bit of risk, obviously. HKIA in Afghanistan was a very risky place to operate. We're very proud of all the work that was done there.Since then, all the evacuations we've done for Canadians have been in accordance with all the procedures we have in place among CBSA, CSIS and everybody involved in the vetting process of Canadians. The Canadian Armed Forces can make sure that, for the person who gets on board a Canadian Armed Forces airplane, their name comes from the proper agency to do that. We do not do any vetting inside the Canadian Armed Forces.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees803086480308658030866SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): (1545)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you, Major-General Prévost and Major-General Smith, for appearing before the committee today. As of October 27, Canada welcomed 40,415 Afghan refugees to Canada under all streams. As the IRCC minister told our committee last week in response to my question, that job is not done as of yet. I would note that 2,635 Afghans have arrived in Canada under the pathway for extended family members of former interpreters. I would also like you to further know that 20,000 applications have been received through the special immigration measures program for the ones who assisted the Government of Canada, with 13,520 applications approved and 12,065 having arrived here in Canada. I believe many in both of these categories would have connections to DND. Are you tracking those people who assisted the CAF in Afghanistan and those who wish to come to Canada? What is the situation for those who have not yet arrived?AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants80308708030871803087280308738030874SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1545)[English]I can start here, and we'll see if General Smith has anything to provide. We are tracking that the government has reached its goal. It's a milestone. It doesn't mean that the work has stopped. In the case of the programs that pertain to the Canadian Armed Forces, which were one of the special immigration measures for an Afghan who had an enduring and significant link to the Canadian Armed Forces, there's no more space available as part of the 18,000 goal that was set. That said, we continue to work with IRCC. If there's more space available in the program, we continue to provide files to IRCC.The Canadian Armed Forces' role in this whole process is fairly limited. We do not track exactly how many members of the family join the applicants when they're approved, where they're resettled in Canada or how many made it to Canada. Our role is really to validate that the applicant had a significant and enduring relationship with Canadian Armed Forces members during our operations in Afghanistan.AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants803087780308788030879SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Salma Zahid: (1545)[English]Thank you, Chair.My next question is in regard to the special committee's recommendations. The first recommendation of the Special Committee on Afghanistan was that the Government of Canada re-examine its whole-of-government review of lessons learned from Afghanistan to ensure that the review addresses all aspects of the government's performance in Afghanistan from February 2020 onwards. While accepting that there may be security considerations, given the sensitivity of DND's work, can you please share with us what specific lessons the Canadian Armed Forces and DND have taken from their own internal reviews and lessons learned?AfghanistanForeign policy80308848030885SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonGregSmithGregSmithGreg-SmithInterventionMGen Greg Smith: (1545)[English]I'll start, and I tried to refer to some of that in my scene-setting statement. If it does nothing else, it reinforces the importance of collaboration across government. We've talked about IRCC, CBSA and Global Affairs Canada. It's extremely important that we don't work within a silo. It reinforced that, and I think some of the successes that General Prévost could talk about would demonstrate some of that more recently. It's equally about allies. We are not doing this alone. The statement talks about how difficult operations were out of Kabul and how that was a multinational operation. We evacuated other nationals, and other countries evacuated some people who came to Canada. It has to be international. We have to work with partners from a policy perspective but very definitely from an operational perspective. I would say that it has reinforced those points, and I think some of our more recent operations demonstrate that we've learned from it.AfghanistanForeign policy80308868030887SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Salma Zahid: (1545)[English]Thank you.In recommendation 18, the committee recommended that the Government of Canada instruct Global Affairs Canada to assemble a whole-of-government team, including the Department of National Defence, to help bring Afghans to safety. The government agreed with this recommendation in principle in its response to the report. Could you please outline, from a DND perspective, how this team has done its work and how it has gone?AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrantsInterdepartmental relations80308888030889GregSmithSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1550)[English]Yes. Maybe there are two things that I can say here. We continue to help IRCC in the vetting process of Afghans who are applying to come to Canada. That work has continued since the crisis started in August 2021. We continue to be available to Global Affairs Canada and IRCC for any other support they require in bringing Afghans home. That's the first aspect of it.A part of the recommendations in the report is to increase interdepartmental coordination, and I can assure you, Mr. Chair, and the member, that this has been demonstrated numerous times since that unfortunate crisis occurred in 2021. We had Sudan last year, obviously, and right now you have seen over the last few weeks the work we have done in Israel.Any time a hot spot or crisis starts that has a Canadian interest, on the same day or the next day there's an interdepartmental call that happens within hours at the deputy minister level and the ADM level to start looking into that crisis.AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrantsInterdepartmental relations8030891803089280308938030894SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Major‑General Prévost and Major‑General Smith, thank you for your service, for making yourselves available and for being here with us.There is a biometric requirement in immigration applications that is a barrier for Afghans. It was especially so at the time of the evacuation from Kabul, but it still is. I don't need to explain the context, which is quite difficult.One of the recommendations of the Special Committee on Afghanistan was to waive the biometric requirements for individuals and families who have worked for the Canadian Armed Forces. That is one of the recommendations in the report.Your colleagues from other departments, including the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, or IRCC, have indicated that there is an equally rigorous biometric system for individuals and families who have worked for the Canadian Armed Forces. For example, Afghans who had held various positions in their own country could do their biometric tests in a third country. That was put in place to facilitate the process.Is that other method of security screening still in place at this time?AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants803089880308998030900803090180309028030903SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1550)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I can't answer that question because I'm not aware of the other system.AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030905SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1550)[Translation]The Canadian Armed Forces aren't involved in vetting refugees or immigrants.AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030908AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1550)[Translation]If I'm not mistaken, National Defence has a biometric capacity.AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030909PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1550)[Translation]It does, but it's not involved in the evacuation of non-combatants and refugees.AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030910AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1550)[Translation]So you've never been deployed to a crisis zone to do biometric screening. I'm thinking of Kosovo, for instance.AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030911PaulPrévostGregSmithGregSmithGreg-SmithInterventionMGen Greg Smith: (1550)[Translation]Mr. Chair, in the past, during tactical operations, we have indeed participated in operations where there has been biometric data collection, for example. However, we don't conduct them when it comes to immigration.That's what I wanted to clarify.AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants80309128030913AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1550)[Translation]I understand. So there's a biometric capacity.I'm not trying to be critical, but I'm really trying to understand what would happen if a similar crisis occurred again.We know that National Defence has a biometric capacity and that biometric requirements were a major obstacle for some Afghans when they were accepted by IRCC.You told us that you were having department-wide discussions. Has this issue ever been raised with you? Since you're on the front line, and you have the necessary biometric capabilities, wouldn't that be a way to help people who absolutely have to leave so that they no longer have to face this kind of challenge? I'm thinking of the Afghans, among others. That's what concerns us right now.AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030914803091580309168030917GregSmithPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1550)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I'm not familiar with that file.I'll find out if that possibility has already been considered. As Major‑General Smith said, the biometric capabilities of the Canadian Forces are used in our operations, for example against the Islamic State, and not in the context of an evacuation of refugees or Canadian citizens.The Minister of National Defence still has the necessary authority to respond to a request from one of his colleagues to provide a service, as is done in a number of cases.So I'll check to see if this issue has already been discussed.AfghanistanApplication processBiometricsForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030918803091980309208030921AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1555)[Translation]The goal would be to use the tools at our disposal.That happened in the case of Kosovo.The biometric tests were done on Canadian soil by Canada Border Services Agency officers who also have a biometric capacity. Instead of doing them before, we managed to bring people here.So I'll leave you with that example. I think it would be a really good idea to eventually add these tests to your services in the event of such a crisis.We're talking about a crisis, but it's not necessarily an armed conflict. It could be a natural disaster, like an earthquake or a tsunami, when people need to be evacuated quickly. Since you're on the front line most of the time, this could be another tool so that everyone can get out quickly and be accepted here in Canada.If I understood correctly, you talked about ad hoc departmental meetings.Would you be able to tell us how many times you met about the Afghan crisis? I'm asking the question because you told us that there were ad hoc meetings. I imagine there must be a number. If you don't have it today, would it be possible for you to submit it to the committee?AfghanistanForeign policy8030922803092380309248030925803092680309278030928PaulPrévostGregSmithGregSmithGreg-SmithInterventionMGen Greg Smith: (1555)[Translation]I will support my colleague by saying that there are constant meetings. As mentioned, this is done at all levels of the chain of command, from the deputy minister to the assistant deputy minister, to the director general and the workers.There are hundreds of exchanges of information across government and with allies. So there are hundreds of meetings.AfghanistanForeign policy80309298030930AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1555)[Translation]Is that done between departments?AfghanistanForeign policy8030931GregSmithSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1555)[Translation]Okay.A permanent emergency mechanism has been proposed to IRCC in the event of an international crisis. That exists at Global Affairs Canada, but not at IRCC. Could this type of permanent emergency mechanism in the event of an international crisis encourage the various departments to talk to each other if it existed at IRCC?AfghanistanForeign policy80309398030940SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonGregSmithGreg-SmithInterventionMGen Greg Smith: (1555)[Translation]I would love to know the details of that proposal.[English]Thank you.AfghanistanForeign policy80309438030944SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1555)[Translation]I'd be happy to share that with you.AfghanistanForeign policy8030945GregSmithSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): (1555)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you, as well, to the representatives from DND for being here today.When the government first announced a special immigration measure for Afghans, DND sent 3,800 files to IRCC. Only 900 of those applications have been confirmed. That is to say, 2,900 of the applications referred by DND are lost somewhere between departments.Does DND have any updates with regard to what happened to those files?AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030949803095080309518030952SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1555)[English]I'll start on this one.The first thing I'll say about numbers is that we have to be careful. The only thing I can assure you about numbers is this: Every time we mention a number, it's wrong. Things are fluid. The chief of defence always mentions that the truth has a time-stamp.To clarify, the numbers given by the member are somewhat correct in the fact that, when the crisis occurred, we took every file we could gather from Afghans who were asking the armed forces to establish a link between them. These files were provided to IRCC in the first place. I processed a number of files. I can't exactly remember whether it was 900 or not. As the initial crisis abated, IRCC provided the files back to DND so we could prioritize the files and submit them back again. So far, National Defence has provided over 2,000 files. None of the files has been lost between IRCC and the armed forces. It was just a matter of reprioritizing the files. Two thousand files have been submitted to IRCC, which, at this point, completes the files we have to submit to IRCC. Now that the 18,000 milestone has been reached, we continue to keep the rest of the files with us. As more space in the future becomes available, we will be ready to resubmit those files.AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030953803095480309558030956JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1600)[English]Of the files that have not yet been processed by IRCC and people not brought to safety, how many of them are left with DND?AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030957PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1600)[English]It would be more prudent, Mr. Chair, if I don't provide a number. If I give a number, it will be wrong. There is a significant number of files with us, and these files are dated back to two years ago, when they were submitted. We're not sure how many are still valid. We vetted a number of files that we have with us and that we're keeping. No files are being lost or destroyed. As more space becomes available, we will be providing them to the IRCC.AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030958JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1600)[English]I'm interested in knowing how many spaces are needed to bring the rest of them to safety.AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030959PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1600)[English]That's an answer I could not provide.First, I'm not too sure how many files are still valid, as some of those Afghans have found other places—other ways to get to other countries. At the same time, the work the Canadian Armed Forces did established a link between Afghans and the Canadian Armed Forces. When an individual receives an invitation to apply.... Some of them rest unanswered. That is only one person in an extended family. They can come with 10 or 12 people. In terms of how many people in total would come to Canada, I can't answer that question. AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants80309608030961JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1600)[English] I think what is important here is this: What I do know is that there are Afghans who served Canada, who were part of the mission, and their loved ones, who have not made it to Canada, whose applications were not even accepted. They are just floating out in the wind somewhere. There are people who are still being persecuted by the Taliban and whose lives are at risk.I'm just trying to figure out if DND actually has a record of how many of those it submitted to IRCC actually made it to safety. What I'm hearing is that we don't know, but there is a bunch of them who need to get to safety and DND is waiting for IRCC to make available the space so that they can come to Canada, be processed and be able to get to safety.From this perspective...and maybe you're not able to answer this question. The government put an arbitrary cap of 40,000. That number has now been reached. Not everyone has made it to safety—that we know for certain—because I actually have files in my office of people who served Canada, and their loved ones, who could not get to safety. Would it be useful for the government to lift the cap and make that space available so that DND can continue to submit those files to IRCC to bring those families and the people who served Canada to safety?AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030962803096380309648030965PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1600)[English]I'll just start by saying again that no files have been lost. We know how many have been accepted and how many we still have that we've established—AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030966JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1600)[English]I'm sorry. May I interrupt?If you know how many you still have, can you tell the committee how many you still have?AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants80309678030968PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1600)[English]I do not have that number. I'll say that it's a significant number of files that we still have. I know that we do have those files. They're still on record, and they will remain on record with us here.With regard to the second part of the question, 40,000 and 18,000 were goals established or milestones that we've reached. My understanding is that Afghans will be able to continue to apply under other immigration programs with IRCC, and I think it's really more for IRCC to explain those programs.AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants80309698030970JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1600)[English]Could the major-general send in those numbers to the committee when he has them, please?AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants8030973SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonGregSmithGreg-SmithInterventionMGen Greg Smith: (1600)[English]Mr. Chair, we take that on notice.Thank you.AfghanistanApplication processForeign policyImmigration and immigrants80309778030978SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp (Saskatoon West, CPC): (1600)[English]Okay. Thanks, Mr. Chair.Major-General Prévost, you're on the cross-government committee to coordinate emergencies like Afghanistan or the more recent evacuation of Canadian citizens from Israel. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy80309838030984SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1600)[English]That is correct. We're an interdepartmental table. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030985BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1600)[English]Okay.We clearly saw political interference with the evacuation from Kabul. Evidence tabled at this committee by Liberal politicians showed a group chat with Liberal politicians and Liberal political operatives making plans around the evacuation, and they did so without proper security clearances.Recently, when war broke out in the Middle East, it took a full week for the Canadian Armed Forces to get planes into Tel Aviv. Have you talked with the current chief of staff and chief of the defence staff to coordinate this better? You said before that you hadn't talked.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy803098680309878030988PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English]Mr. Chair, I'm not going to answer the first part of the question as I'm not aware of the political interference that the member is referring to.In the case of Israel, there are a lot of moving parts that go into organizing an evacuation of Canadian citizens. Some of the limitations that Canada has are that we don't have a global presence with our resources. We don't have a global presence through bases—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy80309898030990BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]My time is very limited. I just want to know if you were speaking with the chief of the defence staff and the chief of staff on these issues.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030991PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English]I advised the chief of the defence staff every day on our potential contributions to those options for the chief of the defence staff to recommend to the government.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030992BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]Was that in addition to the chief of staff of the minister as well?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030993PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English]I informed the chief of staff of the minister of the actions that we were taking and some of the decisions that would need to be made by the minister in order to effect the evacuation of Canadians. That's correct.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030994BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]That's a one-way conversation then. You inform them.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030995PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English]No, it's never really a one-way conversation. My role is to advise the chief of the defence staff on the options that we can provide in order to bring Canadians home. The chief of the defence staff provides military advice to the government.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030996BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]What about with regard to the chief of staff of the minister?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030997PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English] I inform the chief of staff of the minister that the chief of defence will provide military advice. We do have discussions on any of the files that the chief of defence will push to the minister for approval.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy8030998BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]The political interference we're talking about is the Marilou McPhedran case, where there were implications of fake documents and fake letters that were done. Were there any changes that were done to mitigate and prevent that from happening again?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees80309998031000PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English]I believe I've answered that question before. We were not involved and not aware of any facilitation letters being moved. As per normal process, the documentation that we send to the minister's office are appropriate Government of Canada communications letters sent by the chief of defence.I was not aware of any letters being sent at that time.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees80310018031002BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]Mr. Sajjan told this committee that when he was defence minister, he never read his emails. His quote was this: “I had no time then to be looking at emails.” He also said, “I'll be honest with you. I don't know...I did not have time to look at emails” and “I don't remember looking at my emails”.As a general, do you use email in your job?AfghanistanForeign policy80310038031004PaulPrévostSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English]Mr. Chair, I obviously read my emails as the director of staff of the Canadian Armed Forces.AfghanistanForeign policy8031006SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]Would that apply even in a crisis?AfghanistanForeign policy8031007PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English]That applies in a crisis.AfghanistanForeign policy8031008BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]If you had a superior or a subordinate who wasn't reading their emails and monitoring their emails during a crisis, would you consider that superior or subordinate either grossly incompetent or extremely negligent?AfghanistanForeign policy8031009PaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaulPrévostPaul-PrévostInterventionMGen Paul Prévost: (1605)[English]I'm not too sure where the line of questioning is going here. I think everybody has email boxes and manages their email boxes as best they can.AfghanistanForeign policy8031010BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English]This all brings us back to George Young. He's the Liberal political operative at the centre of the whole Marilou McPhedran case that we talked about before.Mr. Chair, I'm going to move a motion. I move:That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), (a) the committee extend the total number of meetings currently allocated to the current study regarding the government’s response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan by one meeting, to be held prior to December 31, 2023; and (b) Mr. George Young be invited to appear for two hours, at a date and time to be fixed by the Chair, but no later than December 31, 2023, to discuss matters related to the current study.AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policyMotions803101380310148031015SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1605)[English] Excuse me, but I don't think I've relinquished the floor yet.We had talked at this committee, and the name of George Young had come up many times. He was, of course, former defence minister Sajjan's chief of staff during the evacuation of Kabul, and he was directly referenced to in this committee by both Senator McPhedran and Minister Sajjan. He sort of ended up becoming the nexus point, the centre, of everything that was happening with regard to the scheme that we have been studying.It's really critical...and we haven't had a chance to hear from him yet. This is my point in this motion. We're kind of going around the edges here. We've heard different things from different people, but the fingers keep pointing back to George Young as the political operative, the chief of staff, who really was the one at the centre of this whole issue.In some of the documents distributed to the committee by the clerk on May 3, 2023, there are multiple emails between Mr. Young and Senator McPhedran, on which ministers of the current government were copied, about the fake visa facilitation scheme. He was involved in many different communications that went back and forth with Senator McPhedran and emails on which were copied, as was said by the senator, many of the ministers involved in this here.The problem we have is that we haven't been able to hear from the source of this. We've heard, for example, Mr. Sajjan saying that he didn't read his emails. That's not terribly helpful in this thing, and I believe it's important that we hear from Mr. Young.No one has been able to answer the questions the committee has on these facilitation letters. Beyond the fake facilitation letters, if you recall, the senator talked about the one letter that said, “try it” and that was him suggesting to her that they didn't know if this would work. It was an attempt. They were desperate to get around the system as well as they could, so he said, here's a fake letter; why don't you just give it a try? That was the “try it” letter that Senator McPhedran referenced.These are things we need to talk to Mr. Young about to make sure we have the facts and we have the truth at the committee.On August 23, 2021, Mr. Young wrote the following in an email: “Thank you, Senator...I am putting it into the system. I will also ensure that Foreign Affairs is engaged to follow up, along with IRCC, so that all that...needs to be done can happen simultaneously.” This kind of goes to the heart of the Afghanistan report and the study, because he was the nexus of this ad hoc government response. How did this happen? How do we move forward? How do we prevent this from happening more? These are the answers we need to get.When I look at these facilitation letters—AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policy8031023803102480310258031026803102780310288031029803103080310318031032SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1615)[English]No. I was just saying that, if everybody wants to pass it on division, we could move on quickly, but I'm not sure there's support for that. I just wanted to highlight a few things.At this committee, as I've said already, the name George Young kept coming up over and over again. It's our belief that we can't get to the bottom of what happened unless we actually hear from George Young, because he knows things that we haven't yet heard in this committee. He's been accused of certain things and hasn't had a chance to defend himself, for one thing. I think he has legitimate information that we do not have.As you all recall, we have talked about this numerous times, and the issue was always put off. It was said, “We'll deal with that later” or “We'll deal with it when we come to the end.” Here we are. We're at the end. From my perspective, it's really important that we hear from him.The evidence and the information that were presented by the senator have his name all over things. There are many reports and many things that he has, and we really need to hear from him.I'll give you an example. There's an email that was sent by George Young to the senator, which says:Thank you Senator...I am putting it into the system. I will also ensure that Foreign Affairs is engaged to follow up, along with IRCC, so that all that can or needs to be done can happen simultaneously.I appreciated the previous note. Everyone is working flat out, including folks like yourself, to try to make things happen in these very difficult circumstances. However, whatever we all might be feeling no doubt pales by comparison to the thoughts and feelings that the citizens of Afghanistan must be experiencing.This was a very difficult time, and people were doing what they felt was the right thing to do. I think that evidence is there in this email. However, that doesn't necessarily make it right.Again, in the interest of allowing Mr. Young to, number one, provide the missing information that we need for this report and, number two, possibly defend himself if he feels like he's been unjustly accused of things, it's really important that we do this.With that, Mr. Chair, I will wrap it up. I don't want to take too much time. I know my Bloc friend might be feeling a little tired, so I will stop talking at this point and appeal to the committee to support my motion.Thank you.AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policy803105480310558031056803105780310588031059803106080310618031062803106380310648031065SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1620)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I was very disappointed to not be able to have my opportunity to ask questions of the major-generals. I have another significant question about the Afghan situation. We know that people in Afghanistan right now, especially with Pakistan.... The Pakistani government has sent out the edict that it will now start to arrest people, detain them and send them back to Afghanistan to face the Taliban.This is very serious. I have a giant pile of files in my office of people who have been left behind. They are people who served Canada and their loved ones and who have been left behind. They are frantic and anxious about the situation.I wanted to get some insight from the major-generals about the operation that DND might still be embarking on. What other work are they doing to try to bring people to safety, and so on and so forth? Now that opportunity has been lost because of the situation.Mr. Chair, I'm wondering whether or not I could have the chance to submit written questions to DND so that I could get responses to these important questions about people who are not my constituents but whose lives depend on Canada to get them to safety.AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policy80310698031070803107180310728031073SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89136TomKmiecTom-KmiecCalgary ShepardConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KmiecTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Kmiec (Calgary Shepard, CPC): (1620)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.On Ms. Kwan's ask, absolutely, I agree with that, as long as everybody else can also submit written questions to both generals. Very briefly on this, we heard from Major-General Prévost. He has just said that during this Israeli evacuation it did take several days before it got off the ground, that he was in fact talking to the CDS, the chief of the defence staff, but also to the chief of staff to the minister when organizing, preparing and doing logistics on it— AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policy803107880310798031080SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89136TomKmiecTom-KmiecCalgary ShepardConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KmiecTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Kmiec: (1625)[English]That's where I'm going, because I'm saying that just in this current evacuation they're very clearly stating that they talked to the chief of staff. In the previous evacuation, we don't know, because we don't have George Young here to explain to us. That's, Chair, where it's connected. That's why it's so important to bring in George Young. During the testimony we just heard about what happened in Afghanistan, we were told—this is a quote—he would be “putting it into the system.” That was the email. The question is, what system was that? The only person who will know what that system was will be George Young, because he was the chief of staff to the minister responsible. From the emails, we can tell that many things were being routed directly through the chief of staff. Major-General Prévost just said that troops on the ground were using a list provided by IRCC. Then, the question we have to ask the chief of staff becomes, “Is that the system that's being referred to in the emails?” That's the only person who will know exactly what the system was.I'll also add just as a final point that this is a department I used to work for as an exempt staffer. It would be highly irregular, almost impossible.... I cannot believe that facilitation letters would be sent by the chief of staff in an email to a senator to tell them to “try it”. I cannot believe that something like that would be done. I was an exempt staffer there. There is no way that something like that would have been okayed, but of course, if the minister wasn't reading his emails, he wouldn't know either. I support the motion. We should proceed to have Mr. George Young present to this committee. AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policy80310868031087803108880310898031090SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105623GregMcLeanGreg-McLeanCalgary CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McLeanGreg_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Greg McLean (Calgary Centre, CPC): (1625)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I took Ms. Kwan's comments very seriously also. I hope we can get to the bottom of this. As you know, Mr. Chair, I'm new to this committee, so there's no history here. However, I'm not new to the Afghan plight and the number of Afghan requests coming into my office to get these people to safety. It was enormous in the summer of 2021 and subsequently too. The questions were asked: What is the process here? How do we get through this?What I've seen in this paper here and heard in the testimony is that there seems to be some kind of back door offered by somebody that wasn't clear on paper to everybody else. I do think we need to get to the bottom of it. I don't know why getting those answers is troublesome at this committee, because in understanding where the political influence may be when working through a crisis like this, whatever that may be, as long as there's standard practice and people understand it going forward, that's fair ball.The transparency is what Canadians want. How were some people processed while other people were put in a queue and never got processed at the end of the day? What was the process? Who was in charge? Where was the manipulation of “here are some people I know, call this person and get this done”? This is something that I think is on us to actually get to the bottom of at this committee. I don't know why we're avoiding it, because I get these questions all the time: What happened here? Can you please find out? You're on this committee now, Greg, so can you find out what happened with this? I have hundreds of people that helped our troops still waiting to get in from Afghanistan. I get sent photos of those people who are no longer on the list of people coming into Canada, because I get sent photos of them at their funerals. This is still a problem. We need to find a way through and make sure that, first, we bring as many people back here as possible and, second, we know what the process was and how we usurp that process. Let's get a clear understanding of it.Thank you, Mr. Chair. AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policy80310938031094803109580310968031097803109880310998031100SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire (Brandon—Souris, CPC): (1625)[English]I just want to say that my colleagues have mentioned all the things I was going to mention. There is more here, but I just want to say that I really think it is time to support a motion like this to get Mr. Young before the committee. AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policy80311038031104SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali (Brampton Centre, Lib.): (1625)[English]Thank you, Chair. I want to add my frustration today. We had those witnesses. They had taken the time out to come here and were responding to very important questions. As usual, our Conservative colleagues would love to filibuster and—AfghanistanCommittee businessForeign policy80311088031109SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali: (1625)[English]Yes, I am coming to it, sir. I am coming to the motion they just put forward. During the witnesses' conversations, we were having that discussion and this motion was put forward, which was their time and they had to leave. In the past, we've had the defence minister, Harjt Sajjan, appear before the committee on this issue. The former minister of immigration Sean Fraser and Senator McPhedran have appeared before this committee on this issue. We have had so many discussions on this issue, and here we go again. Our friend has brought forward that motion again on the same point that we have already had discussions on. I think it would be a waste of time. We have asked questions, had discussions on this issue and the same issue is being put forward. It would be a waste of the time of this committee. We can utilize our time on other studies.Therefore, I would vote against this motion. Thank you, Mr. Chair. AfghanistanForeign policy8031111803111280311138031114SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Okay. I will ask the clerk to call the vote. (Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 4) The Chair: Earlier Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe made a request to go early—he was out of country in Japan—and I am sure that every member will accommodate that.If I can give Ms. Kwan two seconds here, then we will adjourn the meeting. AfghanistanCommittee businessDecisions in committeeForeign policyMotionsRecorded divisions8031120803112180311228031123PaulChiangMarkham—UnionvilleJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88849IqraKhalidIqra-KhalidMississauga—Erin MillsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KhalidIqra_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Iqra Khalid: (1150)[English]How do other countries deal with issues like this?Conflict of interestForeign policyGreen economySustainable Development Technology Canada8029199AndrewHayesAndrewHayesAndrewHayesAndrew-HayesInterventionMr. Andrew Hayes: (1150)[English]I'm not sure that I'm in a position to comment on that.Conflict of interestForeign policyGreen economySustainable Development Technology Canada8029200IqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88849IqraKhalidIqra-KhalidMississauga—Erin MillsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KhalidIqra_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Iqra Khalid: (1150)[English]Have you had maybe a comparative analysis as to how other countries have their process for holding government to account for issues like this?Conflict of interestForeign policyGreen economySustainable Development Technology Canada8029201AndrewHayesAndrewHayesAndrewHayesAndrew-HayesInterventionMr. Andrew Hayes: (1150)[English]We know that there are definitely auditors general that are very similar to us across the world. There are public accounts committees very similar to this one across the world. There are commissions of inquiry that happen. There are a number of ways things can be pursued. In my view, at this stage, this is probably the best way to get to the bottom of what's happening and to provide Parliament with objective and impartial information on what's going on with this foundation.Conflict of interestForeign policyGreen economySustainable Development Technology Canada8029202IqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsJohnWilliamsonNew Brunswick SouthwestNathanielRaymondNathaniel-RaymondInterventionMr. Nathaniel Raymond (Executive Director, Yale School of Public Health Humanitarian Research Lab): (1115)[English] I want to thank the members of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights for inviting me here today to speak on the urgent issue of Russia’s systematic campaign of transfer, deportation, re-education and adoption of Ukrainian children. As my colleague mentioned, the UN Security Council has identified six grave breaches against children that occur during war. These are the killing and maiming of children, recruitment or use of children in armed forces and armed groups, attacks on schools or hospitals, raping or other grave sexual violence, abduction of children, and denial of humanitarian access for children. All six of those appear to have been perpetrated by Russia against the children of Ukraine.Before I proceed, I want us to remember all the other millions of children around the world, from Gaza to Israel to Sudan, who are also suffering these grave breaches now.I want to briefly summarize today the public findings of the research that our team at the humanitarian research lab at the Yale School of Public Health has undertaken on the issue of Ukraine’s children specifically. This work is undertaken as a member of the U.S. State Department’s Conflict Observatory program, which uses high-resolution satellite imagery and open-source data to document alleged war crimes in Ukraine. The HRL team has been studying the forced deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children since the summer of last year. We published our first report on the subject, “Russia’s Systematic Program for the Re-Education and Adoption of Ukraine’s Children”, in February 2023. We expect to have more reports coming out this fall in the coming weeks. We will provide those to the subcommittee and prepare a briefing if requested.What I want to start with is that we have concluded as of February that at least 6,000 Ukrainian children have been taken to at least 43 facilities inside occupied Crimea and Russia to be subjected to so-called “patriotic re-education”; military training in the cases of at least two facilities, including one in Chechnya; and in some cases, forced fostering and adoption. These facilities stretch over 3,500 miles from the Black Sea to the eastern Pacific coast at Magadan, including one location in Siberia.Many of the children have returned from the camps, but an unknown number—at least approximately 600 as of February 2023—remain in the facilities. The number of adopted children is unknown, but we at the humanitarian research lab and Conflict Observatory are working to answer that question literally as we speak. It is important to understand that the children range in age from six months at the time of capture to eighteen years of age.Here is some quick background on the origins of the program. The program really began in 2014, with so-called “patriotic re-education” occurring at summer camps in Crimea and also in the occupied areas of Donbas. Since the full-scale invasion of 2022, President Vladimir Putin has significantly ramped up this operation to an almost industrial scale, through multiple means and measures. In early 2022 he removed laws that once prevented the adoption of Ukrainian's children. The facilities available for re-education purposes have been rapidly expanded in number and capacity. We think there are an additional 40 facilities besides those we identified in our report in February. I want to really make clear in the limited time I have left that there are four groups of kids. There are the kids at the camps. There are the kids who were captured on the battlefield, whom we know the least about. A third group, called “the evacuees”, are children taken from facilities that were Ukrainian state facilities in places like Kherson, Zaporizhzhia and Kharkiv in the early phase of the invasion. They likely make up the majority of the children being adopted. The fourth group, which we call the “filtration kids”, were likely separated from their parents in filtration camps set up in Donetsk after the fall of Mariupol. To close, there are four concrete steps that the Canadian government can take to help get these kids home.(1120) First, the Prime Minister should designate a high-level focal point on issues related to unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukraine's children within the foreign ministry to coordinate Canada's activities on this matter, particularly with Ukraine, the United States and other allies. Second, the RCMP, CSIS and other agencies in Canada's law enforcement and national security community have a critical role to play in proactively coordinating with the Ukrainian government on information sharing and the development of common data systems to support individual child identification and return.Third, CIDA should work with its Ukrainian partners to identify and financially support the massive capacity needs around identification, reintegration and psychosocial support.Last, fourth, Canada should leverage all of its diplomatic might to persuade other countries, particularly the Global South and all other allies that have not yet condemned these alleged war crimes—which were indicted by the International Criminal Court a month after our report's release—to denounce these activities and call for these kids to come home. Thank you. ChildrenCultural assimilationData sharingDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersForeign policyRussiaUkraineWarWar crimesYale School of Public Health Humanitarian Research Lab8019272801927380192748019275FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesFayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1225)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I have a couple of questions specifically for the Center for Ukrainian Victory. First of all, Mr. Raymond provided us with some very specific recommendations in terms of what he wanted to see from the Government of Canada and from the international community. Do you have similar recommendations that you'd like to share with us?ChildrenDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersForeign policyRussiaUkraineWar801952380195248019525FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesAndriiMikheievAndriiMikheievAndrii-MikheievInterventionMr. Andrii Mikheiev: (1225)[English] I would like to take the floor on this question.Despite the push to facilitate the process of the return of children and the reuniting of families, I think it's very important to contribute to establish liability and bring all the perpetrators to justice. First of all, as my colleague Olga has already provided, it's essential for Canada and all other states to collect all these statements of crime from the victims who succeeded in fleeing from Ukraine and who appear, for instance, in Canada, and then transfer this information to Ukrainian law enforcement authorities.It's also very important to help collect evidence about these crimes and to make stronger arguments about deportation of children as a war crime and as a crime of genocide.It's also very important to advocate the rapid establishment of a specialized tribunal on aggression, because Russian military aggression is the main source of all the other subsequent international crimes that are happening now, including the crime of deportation of children.These are further recommendations and our further wishes that we are expecting from the Canadian government.Thank you.ChildrenDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersForeign policyRussiaUkraineWar8019526801952780195288019529801953080195318019532GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanOlgaAivazovskaOlgaAivazovskaOlga-AivazovskaInterventionMs. Olga Aivazovska: (1225)[English]One small recommendation is about journalist investigators, who are very useful. We know they have done a lot in the past about different crises and in cases in Ukraine and in Russia.Let's support them instead of CSOs in Russia. They have already given us access to very important information about Russian aggression and the war against Ukraine.One more very small comment is that the joint investigation team, which is working on the investigation of war crimes under the different jurisdictions, needs to be more open for civil society and needs to take what civil society has already collected as the data, as preliminary interviewing, and put this information into an official text, because we live in a parallel world, and this is not useful for future justice.ChildrenDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersForeign policyRussiaUkraineWar801953580195368019537GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanAndrewTurnerH.E.Andrew-TurnerInterventionMr. Andrew Turner (Ambassador of Canada to the Republic of Armenia, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1105)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.It is a profound honour to speak to you as Canada's first resident ambassador to the Republic of Armenia. I'm grateful to the committee for the flexibility in allowing me to appear virtually, given that I only recently arrived in Yerevan, and there is much work to be done on the ground at such an important time. Having begun my public service career as a parliamentary page, I commend Parliament for the opportunity this program offers to young Canadians.Global Affairs Canada is closely monitoring the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh and remains deeply concerned by the rapid deterioration of the humanitarian conditions arising from the events of the past year, including the 10-month blockade, Azerbaijan's September 19 military operation and the mass forced displacement of Nagorno-Karabakh's population. [Translation]It was on September 19, 2023, that Azerbaijan launched a military operation against the separatist army in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. On September 20, Nagorno-Karabakh's de facto authorities announced their acceptance of a ceasefire proposal put forward by Russian peacekeepers and based on Azerbaijan's maximalist goals.[English]Following the military operation, there was a mass exodus into Armenia of ethnic Armenians who, after 30 years of conflict and the blockade of the past 10 months, feared remaining in Nagorno-Karabakh. According to UNHCR'S latest emergency update, 100,632 people have arrived in Armenia, which is nearly all of the estimated 120,000 ethnic Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh. We commend the Government of Armenia for its effective response to this surge of refugees, over 80% of whom have now been temporarily placed within host communities across the country.[Translation]UN agencies have launched an appeal for $97 million to help 231,000 people, including refugees and the host communities that support them. Initial actions focused on the refugees' most urgent needs, including shelter, but the emphasis is now on longer-term needs.[English]In support of these efforts, Canada has joined the international community in responding to the Government of Armenia's call for assistance. Canada announced a combined $3.9 million in humanitarian assistance to support refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh through the ICRC, UNHCR, and other organizations. On October 26, Prime Minister Pashinyan announced his hopes that a negotiated peace agreement and the establishment of relations with Azerbaijan could be reached within months. Earlier today, he reiterated to the National Assembly that peace and normalization with Azerbaijan and normalized relations with Turkey are his objectives.Canada supports these goals. Canada has consistently called for a permanent cessation of hostilities and calls on all parties to meaningfully engage in dialogue to reach a comprehensive negotiated peace treaty. Canada promotes the principles of the non-use of force, territorial integrity of both countries and self-determination. A peace agreement must also now guarantee the right of the displaced population to return to Nagorno-Karabakh and guarantee respect for its property and human rights. [Translation]In an effort to help reach a peace agreement, various mediation initiatives have been undertaken in recent years. However, after the second Karabakh war in 2020, the efforts of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe's Minsk Group came to an end.Since then, several unofficial processes were launched to support peace talks between Armenia and Azerbaijan, including those led by Russia, the European Union and the United States. Most recently, on October 5, a meeting was held in Grenada between Armenia, the European Council, France and Germany. On October 23, the foreign ministers of Iran, Russia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Turkey met in Tehran, within the 3+3 format, to discuss developments in the South Caucasus.[English] With the official opening by Minister Joly of the Canadian embassy in Yerevan on October 25, Canada is now better placed to engage with Armenia's government and communities and to meaningfully contribute to international efforts to support democracy, peace and stability in the region. During her visit, Minister Joly also reiterated Canada's support to Armenia in response to this crisis; announced additional humanitarian assistance; visited the EU observer mission; met with the Armenian government, including Prime Minister Pashinyan; met with civil society; and met directly with people who were forced to flee Nagorno-Karabakh to hear their stories. The minister was accompanied by members of opposition parties, further highlighting the broad base of support for Armenia at such a difficult time. Canada's ongoing support and the decision to open an embassy in Yerevan have been warmly welcomed by all our Armenia interlocutors and our like-minded partners. Continuing to monitor developments with regard to Nagorno-Karabakh, Armenia-Azerbaijan relations and the broader regional situation will be an important focus for the embassy.I and my team remain at the committee's disposal, and I will do my best to answer any questions you may have. (1110) Thank you, Mr. Chair. ArmeniaAzerbaijanCeasefireDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentDisplaced personsEmbassies and consulatesForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionNagorno-Karabakh8015521801552280155238015524AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58858RobertOliphantHon.Robert-OliphantDon Valley WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OliphantRobert_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Robert Oliphant: (1120)[English]Thank you.Stéphane Dion, as our special envoy, went to Armenia and came back with a very lengthy and, I think, quite important report, including the recommendation that we open an embassy.Is it part of your work plan to take that report and find ways to actualize it?ArmeniaAzerbaijanEmbassies and consulatesForeign policyInternational conflict and international conflict resolution801556380155648015565AndrewTurnerH.E.AndrewTurnerH.E.AndrewTurnerH.E.Andrew-TurnerInterventionMr. Andrew Turner: (1120)[English]Yes, it absolutely is. I have already been in touch with Ambassador Dion, who remains very much involved and committed to seeing that there is follow-up on his report. I am pleased to say that we've already been able to act on several of the recommendations, perhaps most importantly the opening of the embassy and also the initial round of consultations between Canada and Armenia that we held last year. In terms of engagement with civil society, we have been able to approximately double the funding for the Arnold Chan initiative for democracy under the Canada fund for local initiatives since its inception back in 2018. We're now at about $230,000 and are now funding up to six projects. We're not yet at the stage of the 10 to 15 projects that Ambassador Dion recommended, but we have made significant progress in that direction. Now I and the embassy team on the ground very much intend to engage further on advancing the other recommendations as well.ArmeniaAzerbaijanEmbassies and consulatesForeign policyInternational conflict and international conflict resolution80155668015567RobertOliphantHon.Don Valley WestRobertOliphantHon.Don Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58858RobertOliphantHon.Robert-OliphantDon Valley WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OliphantRobert_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Robert Oliphant: (1120)[English]Thank you.I just have a few seconds to close.Thank you for your work. I think it's the right person in the right place at the right time. I think that your regional impact can be as important as the direct impact in Armenia. We needed to have a true voice in Yerevan. Moscow is not an easy place to get intelligence. I'm glad to have an intelligent person getting intelligence.Thank you, Ambassador.ArmeniaAzerbaijanEmbassies and consulatesForeign policyInternational conflict and international conflict resolution8015568801556980155708015571AndrewTurnerH.E.AliEhsassiWillowdaleErinO'TooleHon.Erin-O-TooleInterventionHon. Erin O'Toole (President, ADIT North America, As an Individual): (1105)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's nice to see you and nice to see all of you as former colleagues.I am appearing today as a private citizen in your study on the intimidation campaign orchestrated by the Communist Party of China against the Honourable Michael Chong and other members of Parliament, but my testimony will be based on my experience from my time as the leader of the Conservative Party, as shadow minister for foreign affairs and, for a little more than a decade, as member of Parliament for Durham.Like MPs Chong and Jenny Kwan, I was briefed by CSIS on some of the intelligence related to interference against me before I retired as a member of Parliament a few months ago. My comments today will build upon my privilege motion from May 30, 2023. I would invite the committee to review that speech and my submissions for the purposes of your study.(1110)[Translation]Dear friends, I am honoured to be with you a few months after giving my last speech in the House of Commons.The issue of Chinese interference in our democracy is an important one, and I'm glad you're studying it. I am also pleased that Justice Hogue will independently conduct a public inquiry into this matter.Foreign interference in our country is a very important issue. It has to be more important than partisan politics. I will be critical in some of my comments today, but the fact remains that I have always tried to address this issue in a serious and non-partisan way.[English] I would like to start my remarks with a note of condolences to the family of the Honourable Ian Shugart, who passed away yesterday: a senator, a former Clerk of the Privy Council, an exemplary civil servant and a friend to many of us. The words from his maiden speech a few months ago serve as a reminder to us on the virtue of restraint, particularly on issues of national importance such as this. He said this:Canada is a big, diverse country—geographically, socially, culturally, economically and philosophically. For each of us, for parties and for institutions, restraint may begin with acknowledging that our point of view—legitimate as it is—is not the only point of view.My point of view today, Madam Chair, is that we must acknowledge that we've not been doing enough to safeguard our democracy and to react to the issue of foreign interference in our politics and our public institutions. We are a diverse country, and we cherish the liberties that thousands of Canadians fought and died for. We must also realize that these same positive aspects of our country—our diversity and these incredible freedoms—can be turned against us in this age of unprecedented disruption, misinformation and geopolitical realignment. As a country, we must realize that Canada has been like the frog in a pot of boiling water. Multiple governments of both stripes ignored our intelligence agencies, who've been warning about the heat in the water from China. These warnings were ignored repeatedly until things came to a boil over the last few years with what we could call “the three Michaels”: Kovrig, Spavor, and Chong. The country longed for the release of the two Michaels from prison in China, and the country was deeply shocked by the news about known risks to the family of Michael Chong. I think the country has been waking up to the heat in the last few years.Ironically, I'm appearing before you just days after CSIS director David Vigneault appeared on 60 Minutes in the United States alongside his Five Eyes intelligence colleagues. For senior intelligence figures, this was an unprecedented public display of shared concern and shared cause from a group wholly unaccustomed to doing major media interviews. If our intelligence agencies are now openly warning the public about some of the risks with respect to China, each one of you as parliamentarians has a duty to heed their warnings and make the changes and investments needed to safeguard our country, its people and our interests.[Translation]In my first year as a member of Parliament, I spoke about China for the first time in a debate on counterfeit goods. I had worked on this issue as a lawyer, and China was almost always the source of the problem. A year later, I was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade, and my mission was to defend the Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement with China, the famous FIPA. It was a challenge for me, because all political parties knew that there were risks with China—I knew that as well—but economic relations with China were a priority.[English] China has always been a challenge for Liberal and Conservative governments alike because the economic opportunities were so important, and that meant there would be a risk that some of the conduct of China at home and abroad might be ignored. I always spoke about this challenge and the balance we needed with China, and the need for a bipartisan approach to it, including in 2019, when I brought forward the motion to create the special committee on Canada-China relations.This motion was the result of many years of questions about the handling of this relationship by Prime Minister Trudeau. The approval of sensitive takeovers of Canadian companies, like ITF to O-Net Communications, or Norsat to the Chinese-controlled firm Hytera, or, more recently, the Neo Lithium transaction involving critical minerals: All of these approvals raised questions from our closest allies, particularly in the United States.At the same time as the green-lighting of these deals, we had the government flirt with the idea of an extradition treaty with China at the same time we saw mounting risks in the South China Sea and a prolonged attack on religious and ethnic minorities in China like the Uyghurs. With my 2019 motion, I was advocating for a pause and a chance to reset our interests and values with respect to our relationship with China. I also moved the motion for the Canada-China committee on the first anniversary of the illegal detention of the two Michaels. We tried as an opposition to approach the issue carefully, given their situation, but their detention also underscored the need for a major realignment in our approach to China.(1115)[Translation]I am proud of the work done by the Special Committee on the Canada–People's Republic of China Relationship.China remains an important trading partner for Canada, and we must continue to seek the right balance. Many years ago, I said that relations with China would be a challenge for the next generation in matters of foreign affairs. That's why we need to grow as a country and take risks seriously.[English] Madam Justice Hogue began her mandate as commissioner of the inquiry into foreign interference just on September 18. The work of this committee and the work of the special committee on Canada-China relations can serve as a touchstone for her in this inquiry. I invite Justice Hogue to follow these events closely and not have her review limited in any way, or curated in an outcome-driven manner, as was the case with the Right Honourable David Johnston.In my privilege motion, I referenced my briefing from CSIS in a very careful manner to ensure that intelligence aspects could be safeguarded. The service had identified four types of threats involving me, which I described as “categories” of threats. The first category was foreign funding, to undermine the prospects of me and the party I was leading. The second was the use of people on the ground in Canada through the United Front Work Department. The third category related to the use of foreign-controlled and -directed social media messaging to spread disinformation to voting Canadians by using foreign-language channels like WeChat. The final category raised to me involved evidence of voter suppression efforts by China in one constituency in Canada.I was very careful in my speech in June to not disclose elements that would undermine our intelligence-gathering efforts, so I will not discuss any of these issues in any further detail today. I think these examples of interference on their own show the seriousness of the problem. I also think, from my own perspective, that they're likely the tip of the iceberg. Intelligence resources are strained in Canada and collection is difficult. I believe the examples involving several members of Parliament suggest there is a much greater problem than we are able to verify.In my final minutes, I will place on the record just three questions that I hope Justice Hogue is seized with in her inquiry on foreign interference and that I hope the members of this committee push for answers on in the weeks and months ahead.Foreign interference can be defined as “an attempt by agents of a foreign state to influence the opinion, views, and decisions of Canadians with the aim to obtaining a political, policy, or economic advantage”. Friends, this is not my definition. It's the definition given to the public safety committee of Parliament in 2010 by Dick Fadden, who was then the director of the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service. Mr. Fadden defined foreign interference to Parliament because he was called on the carpet following a media report of a speech he gave in Toronto, when he revealed that CSIS had concerns about Chinese influence on two elected officials in Canada. This was 2009 and 2010. Mr. Fadden acknowledged that the Ontario provincial government was briefed on the issue with respect to one of their ministers that year.My first question is this: If CSIS had flagged concerns about a senior Liberal Party elected official for review in 2010, why did it take Minister Blair four months to authorize a CSIS warrant for this same person in 2021?Second, it is on the public record that the Conservative Party raised serious questions about interference both during and after the 2021 federal election. Why did the person selected by the Prime Minister and the Privy Council Office to perform an assessment on the critical election incident protocol, Mr. Morris Rosenberg, not interview the Conservative leader or my campaign chair, who was my designated and security-cleared representative?I'll move on to my third and final question. At the start of the 2021 federal election, the panel of five senior officials under the critical election protocol briefed the representatives of the political parties. The parties were informed that there were no serious issues of foreign interference to flag as the campaign got under way, and no significant issues of interference from the previous election in 2019. Because of good reporting and leaks of information, we now know about intelligence reports involving clandestine funding by China in the 2019 election. We know about multiple intelligence briefings to the Prime Minister in 2021. We know about the threat assessment involving a Chinese embassy official and the family of Michael Chong just before the 2021 election. We now know that other MPs were targeted and that NSICOP had reported it in 2019. With all this in mind, who made the decision to say that there was no significant cause for concern in the 2021 election?[Translation]Dear friends, we must learn from the errors of the past. That is why I am here today.Thank you.ChinaFederal electionsForeign companiesForeign influenced activitiesForeign investments in CanadaForeign policyFreedom from obstruction, interference, intimidation and molestationInquiries and public inquiriesParliamentary privilegeSecurity intelligence8005069BardishChaggerHon.WaterlooBardishChaggerHon.Waterloo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88698RubySahotaRuby-SahotaBrampton NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SahotaRuby_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Ms. Ruby Sahota (Brampton North, Lib.)): (1315)[English] I call this meeting to order.Welcome to the seventh meeting of the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business.Pursuant to Standing Order 91.1(1), we are meeting to consider the items placed on the order of precedence since our last meeting to determine whether they should be considered non-votable.There are 16 items for consideration today. If you have questions or concerns about any of these items, I would ask you to raise your hand or turn on your mike to get my attention.Mr. Berthold, go ahead.BroadcastingC-273, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (Corinne's Quest and the protection of children)C-317, An Act to establish a national strategy respecting flood and drought forecastingC-322, An Act to develop a national framework to establish a school food programC-332, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (controlling or coercive conduct)C-347, An Act to amend the Constitution Act, 1867 (oath of office)C-351, An Act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act (maximum security offenders)C-353, An Act to provide for the imposition of restrictive measures against foreign hostage takers and those who practice arbitrary detention in state-to-state relations and to make related amendments to the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act and the Immigration and Refugee Protection ActC-354, An Act to amend the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Act (Quebec's cultural distinctiveness and French-speaking communities)C-355, An Act to prohibit the export by air of horses for slaughter and to make related amendments to certain ActsC-356, An Act respecting payments by Canada and requirements in respect of housing and to amend certain other ActsChild protectionClimate and weatherConsideration by the Subcommittee on Private Members' BusinessControlling or coercive conductCorporal punishmentCriminalizationDangerous offendersExportsForeign policyFrenchHorsesHostagesHousingInternetM-75M-86M-96Market shareMaximum security institutionsMeatMergers and acquisitionsMeteorologyOath of officePornographyS-210, An Act to restrict young persons' online access to sexually explicit materialSchool meal programsSenate billsYoung people79536817953682795368379536847953685LucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1720)[English]For you to call some of our sanctions sloppy.... It's easy to put someone on a list when we don't have that follow-through. In the last session, we heard from witnesses who said that the rest of the world that we are sanctioning is in fact laughing at us because they know that the sanctions don't have any teeth to them and that these sanctions don't mean anything.From your perspective, do the sanctions mean anything? We have also heard today that they are working in the case of Russia, but do you think the majority are actually doing anything? Do they even have a political value in terms of signalling to other countries our displeasure with their actions?Economic sanctionsForeign policy7943467AndreaCharronAndreaCharronAndreaCharronAndrea-CharronInterventionDr. Andrea Charron: (1720)[English]We can't answer that question unless we measure it. I will say that Canada has some of the best public servants in the world, but they are beleaguered and they don't have enough resources. We've had a tsunami of sanctions, and perhaps we need to put the brakes on and say that it's not about the number on the list. Let's look at the list and see how we can make those individuals and entities.... Let's make sure that we have the right people, and this requires conversations with our allies.Economic sanctionsForeign policy7943468HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaAnnaPuglisiAnna-PuglisiInterventionMs. Anna Puglisi (Senior Fellow, Center for Security and Emerging Technology, Georgetown University, As an Individual): (1535)[English] Thank you very much.Distinguished members of the committee and staff, thank you for the opportunity to participate in today's hearing. It's an honour to be here alongside my esteemed colleague.I am currently a senior fellow at the Center for Security and Emerging Technology at Georgetown University. I previously served as a U.S. national counter-intelligence officer for East Asia and have spent most of my career looking at China's S and T development and tech acquisition strategies.At the committee’s request, my testimony today will focus on S and T collaboration with China. I'll provide a brief overview of China's S and T system, highlight how China's policies and programs challenge the global norms of science and finally discuss research security. Lastly, I'll offer some lessons learned and put the bluff up front.This is not just a Canadian or U.S. problem but one of open democracies, because China's system is not the same as ours. It takes a holistic approach to the development of technology and it blurs the lines between public, private, civilian and military. Our policies and mitigation strategies need to reflect that reality. Regardless of their personal views, Chinese scientists, business people and officials interacting with our universities or companies have to respond to the PRC's government or security services if they are asked for information or data.China intimidates and harshly silences its critics. This has only grown more prevalent in the past few years, and it increasingly includes its citizens abroad, both in Canada and the U.S. Our institutions are not designed to counter the threat to academic freedom and the manipulation of public opinion that China's policies and actions pose. Beijing in many ways understands our societal tensions, and its statecraft is directed at them, promoting any changes in policy as ethnic profiling. This is a well-funded effort.It's because of this last point that I do want to acknowledge how difficult and challenging these issues can be. There's no room for xenophobia or ethnic profiling in open liberal democracies. It goes against everything we stand for. Also, precisely because of these values, we must move forward and find a principled way to mitigate the policies of a nation-state that's ever more authoritarian.The importance of science and technology is why China targets our universities and our labs. Emerging technologies are increasingly at the centre of global competition, providing the foundational research and developments that underpin future industries and drive economic growth. Future strength will be built on 5G, AI, biotech, new materials, quantum and areas currently researched at our universities, government labs and R and D centres. Beijing views this technology and the robust S and T infrastructure needed to develop it as a national asset. The way it's structured its system to reach this goal is inherently at odds with the key assumptions of the global norms, which include transparency, reciprocity and sharing. Beijing, especially Xi, looks at this development in a very zero-sum way. My written testimony goes into many more details on the policies, programs and infrastructure that support these efforts. China’s legal system also complicates collaborations, because its laws compel its citizens to share information and data with Chinese entities if asked, regardless of the restrictions placed on that information. More importantly, who owns that information? I have also provided these points in my written testimony. Moving forward, we need to consider the following. We need policies for the China we have and not the China we want. Most policy measures to date have been tactical and not designed to counter an entire system that's structurally different from our own. It's essential that open liberal democracies such as Canada and the U.S. invest in the future, but we must build research security into these funding programs. Existing policies and laws are insufficient to address the level of influence the Chinese Communist Party exerts in our society, especially in academia. Increased reporting requirements for foreign money at our academic and research institutes and clear reporting requirements are a good start.We also have to ensure true reciprocity in our collaborations. For too long, we've looked the other way when China doesn't play by the rules and follow through on the details of these S and T collaborations. There have to be repercussions for not sharing data, providing access to facilities and, as my colleague mentioned, obfuscating the true affiliation of Chinese scientists.In conclusion, what will also make this difficult is that the reality China is presenting is inconvenient to those benefiting in the short term. This includes companies looking for short-term profits, academics who benefit personally from funding or cheap labour in their labs and the many former government officials who cash in as lobbyists for state-owned or state-supported companies in China. I want to thank the committee again for continuing to discuss this issue.(1540) These are hard conversations that open, democratic societies must have if we are to protect and promote our competitiveness, our future developments and our values. If we do not highlight and address China's policies that violate global norms and our values, we give credence to a system that undermines fairness, openness and human rights. The Chinese people deserve better, and I think that Canadian and American people deserve better. Our future depends on it.Thank you.AuthoritarianismChinaDemocracyForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyGovernment assistanceIntellectual propertyNational securityRacial equalityResearch and researchers7937944793794579379467937947LloydLongfieldGuelphLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105751GeraldSorokaGerald-SorokaYellowheadConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorokaGerald_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gerald Soroka: (1545)[English]Yes. We can see a lot of issues. That's why we're bringing this study forward; it's for that reason.I will go on to Ms. Puglisi.You have dealt more with the United States and some of the policies there. Do you think that the Canadian government is doing enough? If not, what kinds of opportunities do we have to improve?ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers793796679379677937968MargaretMcCuaig-JohnstonAnnaPuglisiAnnaPuglisiAnna-PuglisiInterventionMs. Anna Puglisi: (1545)[English] As I mentioned, I think this is a problem we see not only in Canada and in the U.S but also in other open, liberal democracies. I think what makes it so challenging to get this started is we had hoped these collaborations—especially when many people entered into them—would lead to a more open China and that we wouldn't be in this place, especially 10 or 20 years ago. I think movement across the board is not as quick as I hoped it would be. Looking at where the funding comes from and looking at these talent programs is a really good start, but it's also about telling the stories and making folks aware that these are the policies and programs of a nation-state. It's also looking at investing in our own futures and looking at the importance of that foundational research, because what's really challenging is that as China has become more capable, it targets earlier and earlier in the development cycle, and our systems are not set up to counter that. Our systems are set up to counter the stealing of military technologies and other kinds of things, so I think it really requires us to think about a different way of doing things.Thank you.ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers7937969793797079379717937972GeraldSorokaYellowheadLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104705MaximeBlanchette-JoncasMaxime-Blanchette-JoncasRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Blanchette-JoncasMaxime_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): (1555)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.First of all, I would like to say hello to our colleagues who are joining us. I find it interesting that the government wants to add new members to this important committee. We've been waiting for six months for the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry to come. All the members of the committee agreed to invite him to come and testify and explain the decisions on his budget. Instead of having the minister here, we now have former ministers here. We are making progress, it should be noted.I want to get back to concrete things and our study today.Ms. McCuaig-Johnston, congratulations and thank you for your commitment over the past 37 years. That's something. You have expertise in this area, and we are pleased that you are with us today.At the last committee meeting, last Wednesday, I quoted you when I talked about the approaches to take in cases of scientific collaboration. You said that a different set of rules should apply in assessing scientific collaborations with researchers from authoritarian regimes, such as Russia or China. Various witnesses have given us their mixed opinions on this proposal. Gordon Houlden talked about the need to focus on research as well, and Cherie Wong, another witness, talked about a country-blind approach.Can you elaborate on your approach? Also, what do you think of the positions of the other witnesses?ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers793799879379997938000793800179380027938003LloydLongfieldGuelphMargaretMcCuaig-JohnstonMargaretMcCuaig-JohnstonMargaret-McCuaig-JohnstonInterventionMs. Margaret McCuaig-Johnston: (1555)[English] I had the pleasure of watching that committee meeting. I know what you're referring to. My views are very much in the camp of Gordon Houlden's: We need to assess not just the professor and the institution they're coming from but also the field or discipline of research. The committee has looked at a list of these. ASPI has listed research areas. I would add polar science and so on, such as aerospace, rare earths and semiconductors. Even basic research into the properties of advanced materials and basic brain research are potentially problematic when China is now.... China has a policy for weaponry. They would like to develop weapons that meet the objective of winning without fighting. That's where brain research comes into it.I'm not in the camp of being agnostic about where people are from or making researchers go through this process for every single country in the world. I also have a concern about the registry; this may be what it's going to look like. I think we should be focusing on the countries that we know are problems and on what's documented. China is certainly number one—and number two, three and four too.ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers793800479380057938006MaximeBlanchette-JoncasRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesMaximeBlanchette-JoncasRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1610)[English]Do you think Canada's doing enough to coordinate with our allies, especially with America, regarding the threat that the PRC is?ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers7938057AnnaPuglisiAnnaPuglisiAnnaPuglisiAnna-PuglisiInterventionMs. Anna Puglisi: (1610)[English]I've been out of government for a while, so I'm not aware of what the current conversations are, but I think that the U.S. and Canada are partners and like-minded and that we really do need to work together to counter this threat, because it comes out our seams in a way that our systems are not set up to counter, so yes.ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers7938058CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1610)[English]Increasingly there are more stories of them feeding, as in the example we heard last week of offering three times their salary, and trapping them and then asking them to do questionable things for the host.Moving along to our other witness today, you talked about the top three target countries for China that we should be concerned about. What are their top three targets? Which countries would they be?ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers79380657938066AnnaPuglisiMargaretMcCuaig-JohnstonMargaretMcCuaig-JohnstonMargaret-McCuaig-JohnstonInterventionMs. Margaret McCuaig-Johnston: (1610)[English]That's very clear. Their top targets are the U.S., the U.K. and then Canada. Again, ASPI has done a lot of statistical work on the extent to which there are Chinese military researchers in our universities now. That's a big concern.Canada's among the top, and the reason is that we're advanced in all of the strategic technologies that the PLA wants to get a hold of, and it's not a surprise: artificial intelligence, photonics, quantum....ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers79380677938068CoreyTochorSaskatoon—UniversityCoreyTochorSaskatoon—University//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1610)[English]Those three are all Five Eyes countries, so there must be some coordinating among them. If there's been a lack in the past in our approach to Beijing, what are the other countries that are increasingly turning towards China?ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers7938069MargaretMcCuaig-JohnstonMargaretMcCuaig-Johnston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84882CoreyTochorCorey-TochorSaskatoon—UniversityConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TochorCorey_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Corey Tochor: (1610)[English]I mean on the research side. Outside of Canada, as much as we should be worried about Canada, what are the other countries that should be more alarmed—not the U.K. and the U.S., but ones that are fully engulfed in their control?ChinaForeign policyGovernment assistanceNational securityResearch and researchers7938071MargaretMcCuaig-JohnstonMargaretMcCuaig-JohnstonKatpanaNagendraKatpana-NagendraInterventionMs. Katpana Nagendra (General Secretary, Tamil Rights Group): (1120)[English] Thank you.Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify as part of a panel of witnesses in this study of Canada's sanctions regime.Tamil Rights Group is a not-for-profit human rights organization acting globally to support Eelam Tamils. We relentlessly pursue means to uphold human rights through global diplomacy, together with legal avenues under international law and human rights principles. In November 2021, TRG submitted a major communication under article 15 of the Rome Statute to the International Criminal Court requesting a preliminary examination into crimes against humanity committed again Eelam Tamils within territories of states parties to the ICC.Canada recently imposed sanctions related to Sri Lanka under the Special Economic Measures Act “in response to the gross and systematic violations of human rights occurring in the country.” Sanctioned under SEMA were four Sri Lankan state officials who were responsible for gross human rights violations that occurred from 1983 to 2009 and afterwards. This was a great step in exposing the atrocity crimes, including genocide, that Tamils have been facing at least since 1948, including the anti-Tamil pogrom of 1983 and, most recently, the 2009 Mullivaikaal massacre. Numerous Tamils, including women, children and surrendered and unarmed militants, were brutally murdered in the massacre. Death toll estimates range anywhere from 40,000 to 150,000. I am here today not only as a representative of Tamil Rights Group but also as a victim of the 1983 riots, which forced my family to migrate to Canada in 1985.Today I would like to highlight TRG's view on Canada's sanctions regime and provide recommendations on how Canada can further strengthen the current regime. These recommendations are made in consultation with our legal advisers David Matas and Sarah Teich.Our first recommendation centres around greater transparency and more involvement from civil society and NGOs. We feel that there should be a clear and formalized pathway for NGOs to communicate requests to implement sanctions. NGOs can also access a wide variety of evidence that can help outline chain of command and identify perpetrators of gross human rights violations. Global Affairs should be working more closely with our group and others in the identification of evidence and perpetrators to be sanctioned.Second, more needs to be done to support justice efforts of Tamils, both in the form of additional sanctions and additional accountability efforts through various international justice mechanisms. This need is evident from realities on the ground. Sri Lankan officials continue to arbitrarily detain individuals under the draconian Prevention of Terrorism Act. There is a continued military presence in the north and east of Sri Lanka. Individuals are prevented from participating in peaceful demonstrations and acts of memorialization. Most recently, in the wake of alarming discoveries of multiple mass graves, the Sri Lankan government refuses to allow independent and international investigations and is wilfully destroying evidence.These continued abuses highlight the need to expand the current sanctions. The vast majority of Sri Lankan officials with responsibility for gross human rights violations are still not held to account. Pervasive impunity encourages continued abuses. To combat this, sanctions must be extended to numerous additional personnel with responsibility for human rights violations. Any assets held by sanctioned individuals in Canada should be repurposed to compensate victims. Canada should also engage multilaterally to press for sanctions to be implemented in further jurisdictions. Canada should be investigating how it may be inadvertently undermining its own sanctions regime by still providing funds to the Sri Lankan military through agencies like the IMF and World Bank.Further, targeted sanctions on their own are not enough. The utilization of the Magnitsky act or SEMA is one tool among many that, when used in concert, may provide meaningful measures of justice and accountability. The utilization of international justice mechanisms is important. Sri Lanka and Canada are both state parties to numerous treaties, including the genocide convention and the Convention against Torture, which enable the International Court of Justice to settle disputes. The International Criminal Court may open a preliminary examination into crimes against humanity committed against Tamils on the territories of state parties. Canada should work to support these and other initiatives.(1125)We look forward to building on these engagements with this committee. We would like to emphasize that the sanctions regime should be the first step in holding individuals accountable for gross violations. Canada needs to explore and implement additional measures, as this was also the recommendation of the United Nations high commissioner's comprehensive report in 2022, which cited TRG’s ICC submission.On behalf of Tamil Rights Group, thank you. I look forward to your questions.Agreements and contractsCivil and human rightsCriminal justice systemEconomic sanctionsForeign policyInternational development and aidNon-governmental organizationsSeizure of assetsSri LankaTamil Rights GroupTamils7937255AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58858RobertOliphantHon.Robert-OliphantDon Valley WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OliphantRobert_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Robert Oliphant: (1235)[English]Okay, very good.On successes and failures, if the impact of sanctions is greater with respect to national security than foreign policy, how do we measure success and failure on that?Economic sanctionsForeign policyNational security7937503ThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomas-JuneauInterventionDr. Thomas Juneau: (1235)[English]Do you mean on the foreign policy side or the national security side?Economic sanctionsForeign policyNational security7937504RobertOliphantHon.Don Valley WestRobertOliphantHon.Don Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58858RobertOliphantHon.Robert-OliphantDon Valley WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OliphantRobert_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Robert Oliphant: (1235)[English]Both.Economic sanctionsForeign policyNational security7937505ThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomasJuneauThomas-JuneauInterventionDr. Thomas Juneau: (1235)[English]On the foreign policy side, that is also a long-standing debate in academic circles: How do you measure success on sanctions? Part of the difficulty in answering that question is that in many cases the stated object of sanctions is not the same as the de facto objective. In many cases—Cuba, Iran, or even Russia, for that matter—the stated objective is to change the regime's behaviour. It's not happening. The de facto objective becomes to weaken the adversary, because it won't change its behaviour. That can be measured, but it's very difficult.In the case of Iran, one of the never-ending debates is this. Iran's economy is struggling in many ways: negative economic growth, double-digit inflation and very high unemployment. How much of that is because of sanctions, and how much is because of mismanagement? It's very hard to say.Economic sanctionsForeign policyNational security79375067937507RobertOliphantHon.Don Valley WestRobertOliphantHon.Don Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English] I will take the last 45 seconds.If we are in a post-Cold War era, which I agree with, and the one China policy was made in the Cold War era, do you think there should be a change in the one China policy?ChinaForeign policyIndo-Pacific region7936019Harry Ho-JenTsengLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweHarry Ho-JenTsengHarryHo-Jen-TsengInterventionDr. Harry Ho-Jen Tseng: (1650)[English]There's no fixed definition for the one China policy. We need to talk in more detail about what direction we are going to go in terms of revising the one China policy. The current one China policy is certainly not something that we welcome seeing in Taiwan.ChinaForeign policyIndo-Pacific region7936022LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/114349CharlesSousaCharles-SousaMississauga—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SousaCharles_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Charles Sousa (Mississauga—Lakeshore, Lib.): (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair and colleagues. I won't be on this committee going forward, but I do want to express my thanks to all of you for our discussions and debates.I do want to thank the witnesses for being here today and coming forward.I have two questions. I'll start, if I may, with Professor Houlden.As you've mentioned, Professor, this is a rather complex issue. It is important that the research ecosystem be as open as possible and as secure as necessary. Our government, certainly, has been working towards improving research security in Canada for some time. In 2021, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada released its “National Security Guidelines for Research Partnerships”. This took aim at supporting researchers “to integrate national security considerations into the development, evaluation, and funding of research partnerships.”Can you reaffirm some of your concerns, then, with how we proceed to limit the extent of collaboration with certain countries, to be agnostic yet at the same time provide for research that is open and allows us to benefit from the degree of expertise that exists in other parts of the world?ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyGovernment assistanceResearch and researchers79320917932092793209379320947932095LloydLongfieldGuelphGordonHouldenGordonHouldenGordon-HouldenInterventionMr. Gordon Houlden: (1650)[English]Well, resources and time are always limited.My point would be that I'm not sure you can always be agnostic. It's pretty clear that the PRC, North Korea, Iran and Russia pose risks that others do not. Hence, I'd argue that focusing on the most immediate problems is rational.Our collaboration with China is for a bunch of reasons, mainly the fact that the Chinese have advanced so quickly and so far. China will probably occupy the lion's share. I'm not aware of any research collaboration with North Korea, for example. There's virtually none with Iran and very little with Russia in the current circumstances. I think you have to pick your targets.The challenge is that one must, in my view, respect the academic autonomy of universities. Where there's a legitimate security concern—and there are legitimate security concerns—is where the Government of Canada legitimately focuses. When it has the funding control, it should certainly exercise it where it believes it's not in the net interest.I would emphasize that there are research topics—be it climate change, environmental concerns or health research—where there is clear benefit to Canada from our researchers' working with Chinese researchers. If you cut that off completely, then one of the things you're going to find is that some of our best researchers will simply decamp to the U.S. or Europe, where there are no such barriers or where at least the barriers may be somewhat more liberal. Working with our allies to find common approaches reduces that risk.There's also the bigger issue of isolating China. China went through very long periods historically, including up to the end of the cultural revolution.... The movement of students back and forth, I think, helps to leaven and open Chinese society. The Chinese students I deal with on a regular basis are far more knowledgeable of the outside world and outside ways of living than was the case before.ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyGovernment assistanceResearch and researchers793209679320977932098793209979321007932101CharlesSousaMississauga—LakeshoreCharlesSousaMississauga—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104705MaximeBlanchette-JoncasMaxime-Blanchette-JoncasRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Blanchette-JoncasMaxime_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: (1655)[Translation]Thank you, Professor Houlden.I understand the nuance you're making about competitiveness and the mitigation of national security risks. I want to hear more about that.Margaret McCuaig‑Johnston, a senior official at the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, NSERC, said that we should have a set of rules that would apply in scientific collaborations, including with researchers from authoritarian regimes like China and Russia. So it would be a differentiated approach.What do you think of an approach like that? Also, what criteria should guide the categorization of countries?ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyGovernment assistanceResearch and researchers7932123793212479321257932126GordonHouldenGordonHouldenGordonHouldenGordon-HouldenInterventionMr. Gordon Houlden: (1700)[English] Thank you very much.Yes, Margaret McCuaig‑Johnston previously served as a senior fellow of the China Institute at the University of Alberta. I know her well. I think that clearly a category one would include our NATO allies and those closest to us, where there's no risk. There is a group of independent democratic countries, largely in Europe but in other continents as well, with which I think concerns are modest, and then there are the countries where, because of their size—in the case of China—and radically different political systems, non-democratic, with larger militaries, caution is more warranted. That's on a national basis, but even within that, you'll have to differentiate between the types of research. It's quite feasible that a Canadian researcher might be working with a German researcher who, unbeknownst to the Canadian researcher, has a Chinese partner, so caution is needed as well. If I were the Canadian researcher, I would ask, “Who are your partners? Who else are you working with?” Once it's leaked from that lab in Canada or from the intellectual property of the individual, it's harder to control where it goes. However, there are issues of health, child health, aging, biodiversity, where it is clear that it's in the planet's interest, as well as China's and Canada's, that we collaborate and advance.That's where there has to be this differentiation, not just on the country, but also on the subject matter, where governments, universities and researchers have categories of high risk, medium risk and no risk, and where the no risk category may have great benefit for all parties.ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyGovernment assistanceResearch and researchers79321277932128793212979321307932131MaximeBlanchette-JoncasRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesMaximeBlanchette-JoncasRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89327RichardCanningsRichard-CanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CanningsRichard_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Cannings (South Okanagan—West Kootenay, NDP): (1700)[English]Thank you. Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today. I'm going to start with Ms. Wong and her comment about this country-agnostic approach. After listening to Mr. Houlden, I'm wondering if maybe it's a bit of semantics that is the difference here. I assume that by “country-agnostic” you do not mean that China is out. You would say, let's look at the research, the topic of the research, the entity that you're dealing with—as Mr. Houlden was saying—and look at the level of risk and use that. Is that the kind of approach you're talking about, rather than just putting all the countries into different boxes from the start?ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyGovernment assistanceResearch and researchers793213979321407932141LloydLongfieldGuelphCherieWongCherieWongCherie-WongInterventionMs. Cherie Wong: (1700)[English] Yes, in a way, but I think that even if we're collaborating with a U.S. entity that has known human rights violations, our reaction should be the same as we how would react to collaborating with a Chinese entity that has human rights violations in its record. That's what I mean by country-agnostic. We should be looking at the conduct of the activities that are being taken by the entity we're collaborating with or potentially collaborating with.ChinaColleges and universitiesForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyGovernment assistanceResearch and researchers7932142RichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West Kootenay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104947ChristineNormandinChristine-NormandinSaint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/NormandinChristine_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Normandin: (1610)[Translation]Thank you.You probably won't be able to answer my next question now, but I'll ask it and, if there isn't enough time left, you can answer it in the second round.We know that six deputy ministers were fired following the arrival of the new Ukrainian defence minister. Could you comment on that? What message does that send? We also know that there are still corruption issues in Ukraine. What is Global Affairs Canada's take on that?There are only 30 seconds left, so why don't you continue your answer in the next round?Foreign policyRussiaUkraineWar7930289PaulPrévostKatiCsabaKatiCsabaKati-CsabaInterventionMs. Kati Csaba: (1610)[English] Mr. Chair, it is true that six deputy ministers and the secretary of state of defence were recently asked to resign. This is apparently a standard practice when the minister has resigned from a post. This should not be considered a sign that any of those deputy ministers were involved in corrupt activities.Foreign policyRussiaUkraineWar7930291ChristineNormandinSaint-JeanJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodChristianLeuprechtChristian-LeuprechtInterventionDr. Christian Leuprecht (Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual): (1105)[Translation]Mr. Chair, thank you for the invitation.I will deliver my remarks in English, but will be happy to answer your questions in the two official languages.[English]I will skip over an introduction that lays out the infiltration and co-optation of Canadian research by Chinese defence intelligence, national security and dual-use technology entities, but rest assured that the public record shows that it is deep and vast. In some cases, Canadian institutions and researchers know full well that their Chinese interlocutors are highly problematic, while in others they are unwitting participants.Tax dollars, public research funding and public universities have for years been leveraged systematically to support and enable research and to use technology that benefits hostile authoritarian states that seem to undermine Canada's democratic institutions, electoral processes, economic prosperity, national security and fundamental values, as well as international multilateral institutions and so forth.The government purports to have a values-based foreign policy, yet, for over 17 years, its own research dollars and institutions have been used by hostile states to advance nefarious purposes that run counter to those very values. This is not a random distribution problem. The problematic research partners and methods of infiltration and co-optation have been a matter of public record for at least five years, as have key areas of sensitive research.At the same time, dithering by the federal government on a coherent and systematic approach and framework to contain this problem is anecdotally causing some scholars to be excluded from opportunities merely by virtue of having a Chinese surname. Contrary to the Prime Minister's claims that government action might have racist consequences or overtones, it is precisely the government's inaction that is having racist consequences by creating widespread uncertainty.Conversely, any scholar who has family in China, who works with former colleagues in the PRC or who visits China would be vulnerable, as is naturally the case with most scholars with relations to China. Although the committee's focus is on the federal government's role, this domain requires close and extensive collaboration among the federal government, the provinces and research institutions, with robust and resolute federal leadership to ensure certainty and national coherence. To this end, the federal government must not succumb to the temptation to take the easy way out by taking a narrow approach. This would be a serious mistake. Only a comprehensive approach to research security will be effective and meaningful.First, on sensitive research areas, the government needs to flag high-risk research areas, notably those that could give rise to dual-use technology. Conspicuously absent from the motion that informs the committee's hearings, for instance, is computing or advanced materials manufacturing and critical minerals, which would capture research on electric vehicles.Two, it needs to be country-agnostic. Once sensitive research areas have been identified, the approach should be country-agnostic and encompass not just China but hostile authoritarian regimes more broadly, including Russia and Iran.Three is listed entities. The government must muster the courage to list problematic entities, which includes about 200 Chinese institutions and companies, but also entities in Russia and Iran, for instance. Researchers must have clarity about which affiliations are problematic.Four, identifying sensitive research areas, problematic countries and actual entities shifts some of the burden for research security to the researcher, who should be required to certify in good faith that either none of these apply to the PI and application, or if they do, the researcher should be required to submit a comprehensive research security plan that explains in detail the risks and the mitigation strategies. Inadequate risk mitigation plans should be grounds for rejection. Research security plans must exercise due diligence to ensure that research does not end up in the wrong hands and to provide additional safeguards, including annual audits and possibly withholding funds to researchers and institutions.Five is having a broad, comprehensive vetting process. Instead of looking only at direct or indirect—that is, in-kind—financial support for a project, a proper vetting process must look at the principal investigator's collaborations holistically, notably that PI's record of co-authored publications and other grants. Looking only at financial support on an application for a project will miss key problematic relationships. Arguments that the charter somehow works against a comprehensive vetting process are false and merely an excuse to avoid doing the right thing.Six, the federal government has started to fund research security at Canadian universities, but there are two problems. One is that the formula used to calculate support under the Government of Canada's research support fund is problematic. Aurora College gets $256 a year, Trent gets $25,000, and the University of Toronto gets $4.3 million. This is insufficient funding for Trent to hire research officers, on the one hand, but way too much money for the University of Toronto. Second, that effort looks largely performative. The new university research officers have thus far received little guidance and are largely performing an administrative function. They require clear guidance.Seven, universities should be allowed and encouraged to put this new research funding towards research, best practices and awareness in support of research security.(1110)Thank you.Application processAuthoritarianismChinaChinese CanadiansColleges and universitiesForeign influence transparency registryForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyGovernment assistanceIntelligenceNational securityNew technologiesResearch and researchersRisk management79068147906815LloydLongfieldGuelphLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88323DarrenFisherDarren-FisherDartmouth—Cole HarbourLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FisherDarren_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Darren Fisher (Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, Lib.): (0925)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. David, it's always nice to see you.I'm interested in procurement processes in other countries. I'll start with you, David, because your second recommendation was about defence procurement data. How do processes in other countries, specifically our NATO allies, impact the way capabilities are provided to armed forces around the world?Canadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment contracts7900943JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDavidPerryDavidPerryDavid-PerryInterventionDr. David Perry: (0925)[English] I would say that the lack of data makes it hard to provide a really meaningful comparison because you have there very idiosyncratic national approaches, so it's hard to look at different systems and identify what parts of the processes are most similar to be able to provide some meaningful analysis about who does what better. You can look at different countries. The French have a different approach from the U.K., but it's hard to make exact comparisons when we're doing it in an information vacuum in Canada.Canadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment contracts7900944DarrenFisherDartmouth—Cole HarbourDarrenFisherDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88323DarrenFisherDarren-FisherDartmouth—Cole HarbourLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FisherDarren_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Darren Fisher: (0925)[English]Do you not have a finding or a country out there that's doing wonderful work that we could go to school on?Canadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment contracts7900945DavidPerryDavidPerryDavidPerryDavid-PerryInterventionDr. David Perry: (0925)[English]I think you can look at lots of different examples of things where we could potentially see benefits of particular parts of the process, but I think the starting point for that should be, to my mind, what's not working here other than everything is slower, but that's a pretty generalized phenomenon.Canadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment contracts7900946DarrenFisherDartmouth—Cole HarbourDarrenFisherDartmouth—Cole Harbour//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105082DaveEppDave-EppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EppDave_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dave Epp: (1140)[English]A private army is illegal under Russian law, is it not?Foreign policyInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionParamilitary militiaRussiaWagner Group7892949HeidiHulanHeidiHulanHeidiHulanHeidi-HulanInterventionMs. Heidi Hulan: (1140)[English]It is, and I am not aware of any incorporation as a private military company in Russia, because it is illegal to have a private military corporation in Russia.Foreign policyInternational conflict and international conflict resolutionParamilitary militiaRussiaWagner Group7892950DaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonDaveEppChatham-Kent—Leamington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1809CherylGallantCheryl-GallantRenfrew—Nipissing—PembrokeConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GallantCheryl_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Cheryl Gallant: (0915)[English]Earlier you mentioned that a single-point responsibility, both at the ministerial and the senior management level, is required to be more efficient in our procurement.What other countries seem to get procurement right and efficiently? Apart from the difference in leadership, what are they doing that perhaps we could be emulating?Canadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment contracts7876192YvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (0915)[English]I'm a budget guy, so I've done reports on Canada's military, and I've looked at numbers for other countries, but I am not a military procurement specialist per se, especially not on the international scene.Maybe the eminent Chris has more knowledge and information than I do.Canadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment contracts78761937876194CherylGallantRenfrew—Nipissing—PembrokeChristopherPenneyChristopherPenneyChristopher-PenneyInterventionMr. Christopher Penney: (0915)[English]Certainly.The only two I would point out were the two you pointed out earlier. That would be Japan and South Korea. They seem to be doing quite well. I believe it was recently announced in Poland that they've acquired, or entered into an agreement to acquire, new tanks and other materiel from South Korea, and they're to be delivered within six months. These are top-of-the-line, next-generation, quality platforms.Canadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment contracts7876196YvesGirouxCherylGallantRenfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110189Jean-DenisGaronJean-Denis-GaronMirabelBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaronJeanDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Jean-Denis Garon: (1250)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.This is for you, Mr. Gallagher.From an international relations standpoint, Canada has like-minded partners that have developed tailored sanctions regimes for particular issues—weapons of mass destruction and cybersecurity, for instance. Those partners have additional triggers under their legislation that is equivalent to Canada’s Special Economic Measures Act.In a world where quick action is often needed and unforeseen circumstances arise, are the triggers under Canada’s sanctions legislation broad and flexible enough for us to meet our foreign policy objectives quickly?Economic sanctionsForeign policy7876008AliEhsassiWillowdaleKelseyGallagherKelseyGallagherKelsey-GallagherInterventionMr. Kelsey Gallagher: (1250)[English]I would say yes, when there is the political will to do so.... Very quickly following Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine, Canada announced a position. As far as I understand, this wasn't legislated. This wasn't a regulation, but a new position that Canadian officials were going to immediately stop the further issuance of export permits for any controlled goods to Russia and actually revoke existing permits. That is essentially as far, typically, as our officials will go as it relates to export controls. This happened in a matter of days, I would say. When something happens, there certainly are mechanisms to stop the future provision of weapons and to cancel permits that allow any weapons exports that have been approved. Other examples where this has happened would be Belarus in 2019, as well as Turkey in 2019 and further in 2021.Economic sanctionsForeign policy7876009787601078760117876012Jean-DenisGaronMirabelJean-DenisGaronMirabelDeanBaxendaleDean-BaxendaleInterventionMr. Dean Baxendale (Chief Executive Officer, China Democracy Foundation and of Optimum Publishing International, As an Individual): (0845)[Translation]Good morning. Thank you very much for inviting me.[English] Today I hope to provide additional insights relevant to your investigation and understanding of foreign influence in Canadian elections and other spheres of Canadian society. Today I will speak with two hats on. One is as CEO of Optimum Publishing, which has published multiple books on human rights abuses by the Chinese Communist Party, espionage operations by the MSS and the PLA, and triad organized crime and money laundering in Canada and other nations around the world. During this time, I've learned more than I ever wanted to know about foreign interference in Canadian affairs. The second is as CEO of the China Democracy Fund, whose mission is to defend free speech by academics and journalists who fall prey to the United Front Work's disinformation and suppression operations in Canada and around the world. Countless people, from the Tibetans to the Uyghurs and the people of Hong Kong, have been oppressed and murdered and have seen their culture erased by the CCP. I stand in solidarity with their right to freedom and democracy. I also stand as a defender of democracy here at home. Canada is at a crossroads. Will we continue to remain wilfully blind to Chinese infiltration into our elections, business, media and academia? Will we continue to abandon our fellow citizens in the Chinese diaspora to the threats, intimidation and manipulation, also known as transnational repression?I put to you that we must exercise option two. If we do not, we risk becoming a captive state, losing our sovereignty and our ability to make decisions in the best interests of our citizens. Today, I am going to talk about one of the most important threats and tactics used by the CCP. It is called elite capture. This is the co-opting of leading individuals and public figures to view the actions and goals of the CCP in a positive light and to advance pro-PRC positions within their spheres of influence. In some cases, these persons are bribed or blackmailed, but in most cases they are simply flattered, supported in their careers or befriended by CCP operatives or agents working on behalf of the United Front. Thus they become witting or unwitting agents of the CCP. Targets for elite capture fall into three categories: those who are already friends, those who are neutral and could be positively predisposed towards the PRC, and enemies of the state. These would include people like Erin O'Toole and the suppression operation that was conducted against the Conservatives in the last election. Former minister and ambassador to China John McCallum became a poster child for the regime—a dream politician who was successfully co-opted by the CCP. Like many, he fell victim to their special treatment and ultimately came to believe that he was a chosen emissary and only he could best relate the goals and objectives of the regime in diplomatic circles here in Canada. This was illustrated in Hidden Hand, which is published by Optimum. If we cast our minds back to the 1980s, it is easy to see how western elites were taken in. Over two decades prior, U.S. President Richard Nixon famously visited China as part of an effort to engage the country and make it an ally. The west had a bigger enemy—the former Soviet Union. China was seen as both an economic and geopolitical opportunity. Western leaders either failed to see or wilfully ignored the fact that China had its own agenda, which it deployed not through military might, but through propaganda, economics and soft power. Carolyn Bartholomew, the chair of the powerful U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission in D.C., said that they sold them on a win-win and many business and academic leaders believed that China would reform its treatment of religious and ethnic minorities, liberalize its country and embrace democracy. This was the prevailing academic theory. They believed—apparently naively—that the CCP would indeed reform and embrace the ideals of a progressive democracy. She expressed this publicly in a human rights panel that was hosted by MLI, Optimum and the CDF in 2021. If elites were blind, intelligence agencies were not. Starting in the 1990s, CSIS had identified the threats, but the Americans began their own operational investigations, including Operation Dragon Lord, which was an American operation focused not only on the U.S. but on Canada and Australia. Operation Dragon Lord was a multi-faceted agency probe by the U.S. intelligence agencies in the late 1990s. These investigations were, in part, in response to the work being conducted by the RCMP and CSIS here in Canada. Garry Clement, Brian McAdam and Michel Juneau-Katsuya, as well as countless other intelligence agents were investigating and writing countless reports on the nexus between organized crime, Chinese business tycoons and the PLA and MSS operations in Canada. The executive brief was obtained by Optimum authors Ina Mitchell and Scott McGregor from a former federal and provincial government lawyer. The U.S. was concerned about national security and the threat emanating directly from Canada. Much later, agencies in Canada identified these linkages and determined that Vancouver had become the North American headquarters for infiltration operations by the Chinese Communist Party. As part of my testimony today, I've submitted the first page of the Operation Dragon Lord memo. It identifies FBI and NSA case numbers. They were investigating the relationship between the Canadian business leaders Paul Desmarais and Peter Munk, former prime minister Jean Chrétien, the Canada China Business Council, the China International Trust and Investment Corporation, known heroin kingpin Lo Hsing Han and arms dealer Robert Kuok. Canada-United States relationsCanadian Security Intelligence ServiceChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyIntelligenceInternational trade7852838JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1925)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr.  van Gelderen, my question is for you because I didn't have the opportunity to hear your answer to my last question.For a week or two now, there has been a lot of pressure on the Trudeau government to expel the Chinese diplomat, which happened today. I heard a radio interview this morning that said the government should weigh economic and political interests, among other things, before taking action. It made its decision today, but were you consulted?Given that these funds involve Canadians, does the government consult you and ask for your advice before making decisions like these?ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785664778566577856667785667KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsEduardvan GelderenEduardvan GelderenEduard-vanGelderenInterventionMr. Eduard van Gelderen: (1925)[English]Thank you for bringing this forward.As I said, it is very complex. It's not an isolated event. If you think about the consequences that we will face, you realize it's not just China. It's actually impacting our whole global portfolio.To answer your question, has the government consulted us on their decisions? No, they haven't.ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations778566877856697785670DenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1925)[Translation]Were you consulted, Mr. Leduc?ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785671Eduardvan GelderenMichelLeducMichelLeducMichel-LeducInterventionMr. Michel Leduc: (1925)[English]No, they have not consulted. We consult, and governments consult with us around the world, on a broad range of matters—infrastructure, policy and different investment-related issues—but when it comes to diplomacy, that's not an area of our expertise, so....ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785672DenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1925)[Translation]So in the past week, then, no one from the government called you to warn you about a potential impact of some kind, or that they were thinking of making a decision like that, or that China might be imposing sanctions. Didn't they consult you on this?ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785673MichelLeducMichelLeducMichelLeducMichel-LeducInterventionMr. Michel Leduc: (1925)[English] No.ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785674DenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1925)[Translation]Mr. Delisle, they didn't consult you either?ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785675MichelLeducVincentDelisleVincentDelisleVincent-DelisleInterventionMr. Vincent Delisle: (1925)[Translation]No.ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785676DenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1925)[Translation]So that didn't happen either.Were you ever consulted for other countries, other sanctions or other geopolitical situations?Does the government consult you before taking political action against certain countries?ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations778567777856787785679VincentDelisleVincentDelisleVincentDelisleVincent-DelisleInterventionMr. Vincent Delisle: (1925)[Translation]I'd have to say no.ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785680DenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertDenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-Hubert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88530DenisTrudelDenis-TrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/TrudelDenis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Denis Trudel: (1925)[Translation]It's never happened?ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations7785681VincentDelisleVincentDelisleVincentDelisleVincent-DelisleInterventionMr. Vincent Delisle: (1925)[Translation]If it has, then I wasn't there, but I'd be surprised to hear otherwise.You know that when we build our portfolio, we base our assessments on long-term performance objectives. We try to see how risks might change over the long term. So when situations like this arise, we hope that we've been able to have discussions and geopolitical analyses that will enable us to see how the risk level will evolve, and we then adapt the portfolio accordingly. Our exposure to China is mainly in more liquid investments. In certain situations, we ask ourselves whether we can divest ourselves of some of them.We have also curtailed some of our private investments to reflect the fact that the geopolitical context had become more risky.ChinaForeign policyInformation and communicationInternational relations778568277856837785684DenisTrudelLongueuil—Saint-HubertKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110306RenéVillemureRené-VillemureTrois-RivièresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VillemureRené_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. René Villemure: (1750)[Translation]At any rate, he has apparently somehow formed an opinion.What's your political stance on China now? You are certainly aware of its history, but now, today, what do you think?Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy7772006AlexandreTrudeauAlexandreTrudeauAlexandreTrudeauAlexandre-TrudeauInterventionMr. Alexandre Trudeau: (1750)[Translation]Xi Jinping's Government is a big problem for China and the whole world. It marks a transition from what I would call the Deng Xiaoping period, one of openness and diplomatic modesty, to a highly imperialistic and hardline era which is in fact a response to a hardening world. He's a strong man who doesn't tolerate…It's sad, but in terms of freedom—we would all like to see the Chinese people achieve freedom—China will never reach the same level that we have in our country; few other countries will do so. The height of freedom there, in my opinion, was in 2010. Since then, there has been a decline.Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy77720077772008RenéVillemureTrois-RivièresJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1800)[English] Okay. You said in your book that you still occasionally defend the CCP. For one thing, you said that you don't think China could have come so far so quickly without the unity and organizational power that it provided.Do you still believe that?Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy7772108AlexandreTrudeauAlexandreTrudeauAlexandreTrudeauAlexandre-TrudeauInterventionMr. Alexandre Trudeau: (1800)[English]That's the key point to understanding recent Chinese history. You need to compare China to China, really, to do a proper analysis of China. The unifying principles, especially after, as I said, the Deng Xiaoping period, caused by—Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy77721107772111GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1800)[English]Do you still believe that contention, though? Does that still reflect your world view?Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy7772112AlexandreTrudeauAlexandreTrudeauAlexandreTrudeauAlexandre-TrudeauInterventionMr. Alexandre Trudeau: (1800)[English]Do I believe that the Chinese government made considerable economic achievements? I do, yes, in a certain period.Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy7772113GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1800)[English]Do you think that the CCP, that China, could not have progressed in this way without the unity and organizational power provided by the CCP? That's your argument in the book. Do you still believe that?Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy7772114AlexandreTrudeauJohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilAlexandreTrudeauAlexandre-TrudeauInterventionMr. Alexandre Trudeau: (1800)[English]That's a hypothesis. It's hard to know, but I think one has to say in a positive sense that the organizing principles of the Chinese Communist Party made a significant economic impact on the country. That's correct, yes. Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy7772116JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/107099Ya'araSaksYa-ara-SaksYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaksYaara_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Ya'ara Saks: (1820)[English]They're alleging that there is some kind of direct connection with what is happening now, in terms of China today. Let's talk context. It's China 2023, so a decade has passed.Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy7772286AlexandreTrudeauAlexandreTrudeauAlexandreTrudeauAlexandre-TrudeauInterventionMr. Alexandre Trudeau: (1820)[English]The world has moved, but this is the state of politics in not looking back a lot and seeing the changes in the world. Our diplomatic goals and objectives and even the very nature of diplomacy changed. Stephen Harper was eager to trade with China. We're still trading with China. Look around: The room is filled with Chinese-made objects. We're in a deep relationship with China. That continues. Diplomacy is very difficult for many reasons right now, and it's changing all the time, and it has changed significantly since the time this donation started. The very goals of academic...which I still believe in, by the way; I just don't think the Trudeau foundation can do it as long as there's a Trudeau government.Charitable organizationsChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policy777228777722887772289Ya'araSaksYork CentreYa'araSaksYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89211ArnoldViersenArnold-ViersenPeace River—WestlockConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ViersenArnold_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Arnold Viersen: (1355)[English]If you had a recommendation for Canada's engagement on this issue, is there one thing Canada could do that you recommend we attempt? What's a top priority for you, Ms. Fahmi?Civil and human rightsForeign policyInquiries and public inquiriesNigeriaUnited Nations7754225HuldaFahmiHuldaFahmiHuldaFahmiHulda-FahmiInterventionMs. Hulda Fahmi: (1400)[English] The initial one is to introduce a commission of inquiry for Nigeria through the UN mechanism. You have all the examples of Nigeria not responding to UN communications on multiple issues. That's one place Canada can step in as a valued voice in the international space.Civil and human rightsForeign policyInquiries and public inquiriesNigeriaUnited Nations7754226ArnoldViersenPeace River—WestlockArnoldViersenPeace River—Westlock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1400)[Translation]Ms. Fahmi, you spoke about the importance of setting up an observation mission on the ground led by the UN. We would like to see Canada take a leadership position with the UN in organizing such a mission.However, as I just mentioned, Canada is not taking action when mining companies registered here violate laws and human rights. What is more, in its most recent budget, Canada just cut $1.3 billion in funding for humanitarian aid and international development.In that context and given its reputation, do you think Canada will be able to demonstrate its leadership skills on the international stage?How do the people of Nigeria see Canada? Does Canada still have a good enough reputation to organize or lead such a mission?Civil and human rightsForeign policyNigeria7754240775424177542427754243AngelaUzoma-IwuchukwuHuldaFahmiHuldaFahmiHulda-FahmiInterventionMs. Hulda Fahmi: (1400)[English]I'll give the last question to Angela because she is sitting in Nigeria, and I think she has a better idea about that. However, I would say that it's the actions. You have to judge people on their actions, and it's never too late to start good actions. Otherwise, what is the point in living if you can't start afresh and work? Once we know, we are responsible for acting. All of you parliamentarians have now heard what's going on in Nigeria. We know it and you know it, and now it's your responsibility to take this further. It doesn't matter if it's today. Now you know, so now you can go ahead.Civil and human rightsForeign policyNigeria775424477542457754246AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanSameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardAngelaUzoma-IwuchukwuAngela-Uzoma-IwuchukwuInterventionMs. Angela Uzoma-Iwuchukwu: (1405)[English]In terms of how Nigerians view Canada and where you can act, yes, I would say you can act. Of course you will have the political side that will always have a negative view, but you will have the support of the people, on whose behalf you are doing this, so do what is in the interest of justice. Civil and human rightsForeign policyNigeria7754248SameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardSameerZuberiPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1410)[English]Thank you very much for that.I will say, in my closing time, that we are seeing right now around the world—as a result of the war in Ukraine—huge levels of inflation, growing insecurity and food insecurity. It's compounded in Nigeria by attacks on farmers and communities. There's violence. There are real questions that have been raised. We've heard about issues—basic things, such as malnutrition.You have an opportunity here to tell legislators in Canada what role we can play. What do you think Canada can do in a practical way to help people try to stabilize the situation and keep people safe at this time in Nigeria?Civil and human rightsForeign policyNigeria77542657754266AngelaUzoma-IwuchukwuSameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardHuldaFahmiHulda-FahmiInterventionMs. Hulda Fahmi: (1410)[English] There needs to be an end to the violence. The violence continues because they enjoy impunity. Nigeria has had a lot of time to work on this. We've seen they've been either unwilling or unable to, but we see that, largely, they're more unwilling.The key thing is holding Nigeria accountable. It's about investigating the crimes, holding perpetrators accountable and bringing an end to the violence. I think that is the key. Nigerians are smart enough to work out their country.It's also about the implementation of the good laws that already exist in the country, and the repealing of anti-blasphemy and similar laws.Civil and human rightsForeign policyNigeria775426877542697754270SameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardSameerZuberiPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1420)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We know that the Canadian government is capable of imposing sanctions. We have seen it in other conflicts, such as the war between Russia and Ukraine, even though some people think that such sanctions are not always effective.Couldn't Canada impose sanctions on those who are violating human rights in Nigeria or who are profiting directly or indirectly from the violation of human rights? Isn't that an example of measures that the Canadian government could take?Once again, I will let the witnesses decide who will answer.Civil and human rightsForeign policyNigeria775431177543127754313SameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardHuldaFahmiHuldaFahmiHulda-FahmiInterventionMs. Hulda Fahmi: (1420)[English]I would say to target the individuals who have not condemned the anti-blasphemy laws or who supported the murder of Deborah. I think that's also one way to sanction individuals who call for the death of somebody for expressing or exercising freedom of religion or belief. Also, I suggest visa bans, or similar sanctions, for individuals so they feel the pressure they're putting on their own civilians.Civil and human rightsForeign policyNigeria7754314AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAngelaUzoma-IwuchukwuAngela-Uzoma-IwuchukwuInterventionMs. Angela Uzoma-Iwuchukwu: (1420)[English]Yes, I would like to answer that.I'd like to say very quickly that Canada can perhaps put out an open statement to support, for example, the use of universal jurisdiction against the particular individuals who are perpetrating torture in the country, since they're not being held accountable in the country. It could put pressure on the government to know that Canada is.... When Canada puts out that statement, other countries could also find ways to support such a stance.Civil and human rightsForeign policyNigeria77543177754318AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.)): (1630)[English]I call this meeting to order.Welcome to meeting number 61 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, October 7, 2022, today we continue our study of the government's response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan.I welcome the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, Minister of International Development, and the officials to the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Welcome, Minister. Thanks a lot for appearing before the committee.The Minister is joined by officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development. We have Marie-Louise Hannan, director general, South Asia bureau; Stephen Salewicz, director general, international humanitarian assistance; Christopher Gibbins, executive director, Afghanistan and Pakistan; and Nancy Segal, deputy director, crime and terrorism policy division.I would like to welcome the minister and the officials to this committee.Minister, you have five minutes for your opening remarks, and then we will go into a round of questioning. Please begin. AfghanistanForeign policy77468957746896774689777468987746899774690077469017746902Rhéal ÉloiFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of International Development): (1630)[English]Madam Chair and members of the committee, I'd like to begin my remarks by restating the Government of Canada's commitment to the Afghan people as they face a dire humanitarian crisis with the reversal of many of the gains made over the last 20 years. Canada has supported and will continue to support the most vulnerable Afghans, particularly the many women and girls who have experienced the removal of their most basic rights and freedoms.Our government is grateful for the work of the Special Committee on Afghanistan and its report and recommendations to provide support to the Afghan people. We are taking a whole-of-government approach in responding to the committee's report. This has required and will continue to require a coordinated effort across several departments. Since the Taliban took over as the de facto authority in Afghanistan, Canada has faced significant challenges in providing consular support to assist vulnerable Afghans who want to come to Canada, and in delivering much-needed international assistance. We are witnessing the rapid—AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersRefugees774692477469257746926SalmaZahidScarborough CentreRhéal ÉloiFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1630)[English]I'd like to begin my remarks by restating the Government of Canada's commitment to the Afghan people as they face a dire humanitarian crisis with the reversal of many of the gains made over the last 20 years. Canada has supported and will continue to support the most vulnerable Afghans, particularly the many women and girls who have experienced the removal of their most basic rights and freedoms. Our government is grateful for the work of the Special Committee on Afghanistan and its report and recommendations to provide further support to the Afghan people. We are taking a whole-of-government approach in responding to the committee's report. This has required and will continue to require a coordinated effort across several departments.Since the Taliban took over as the de facto authority in Afghanistan, Canada has faced significant challenges in providing consular support to assist vulnerable Afghans who want to come to Canada, and in delivering much-needed international assistance. We are witnessing the rapid deterioration of human rights and freedoms in Afghanistan as a result of the Taliban's highly repressive and indefensible policies towards women and girls.I'm here today to speak to the progress made on the recommendations from the Special Committee on Afghanistan in its final report. I want to highlight areas where Canada has focused its efforts since the tabling of the government response.Humanitarian conditions in Afghanistan have significantly deteriorated since the Taliban's takeover in August 2021. We are now seeing over 28 million people—nearly two-thirds of the population—in need of urgent assistance. This is up from 18.4 million at the start of 2021. Afghans are suffering one of the world's worst humanitarian crises, with needs emerging across all sectors, resulting in nearly half the population experiencing acute food insecurity.Canada has been steadfast in its continued support of the humanitarian needs of the most vulnerable Afghans, including women and girls. We have found ways to deliver assistance in this difficult environment through experienced international humanitarian organizations and ensuring that it reaches those in need.In 2022, Canada provided over $143 million to support efforts in delivering much-needed emergency food and nutrition assistance, health services, emergency shelter, and protection services in Afghanistan and in neighbouring countries. As a nation, we continue to offer our support in 2023. I just want to state that the Taliban's status as a terrorist group has imposed constraints on Canada's charities, non-governmental organizations and government officials wishing to deliver aid in Afghanistan, as any taxes, tariffs or fees paid to the Taliban risk contravening the Criminal Code's counterterrorism financing provisions.In March, my colleague, Minister Mendicino, tabled Bill C-41, an amendment to the Criminal Code that would facilitate our humanitarian, human rights and safe-passage work in Afghanistan by providing an authorization regime that could shelter Canadian organizations providing needed activities from the risk of criminal liability. With this amendment, we aim to provide more flexibility to our partners to deliver on our humanitarian responsibilities while ensuring that Canada's counterterrorism measures remain strong and effective.Increasingly, the Taliban is restricting the rights and freedoms of Afghan women and girls, including their freedom of movement and dress, as well as their ability to work in the profession of their choice or to receive an education. We are alarmed by the Taliban's decree of December 2022—which banned female NGO workers from providing assistance and in April was subsequently extended to women working for United Nations agencies—particularly in light of the humanitarian crisis, as well as by the outrageous ban on women attending university. The Government of Canada has repeatedly, at the highest level, strongly condemned the Taliban's attempt to erase girls and women from public life in Afghanistan.As these restrictions increase, Canada's support for Afghan women and girls has not wavered. Canada continues to advocate strongly for the full realization of Afghan women's and girls' rights at every opportunity, including through outreach by our special representative for Afghanistan and our permanent missions at the United Nations in New York and in Geneva, as well as through our civil society partners and on social media.Additionally, Canadian officials consult regularly with a broad range of Afghan women leaders and human rights defenders in order to better understand their needs and how we can best support them. The international community, including Canada, is working together in a strong, coordinated effort to fiercely advocate for the rights of Afghan women and girls, and to call on the Taliban to reverse the bans and protect the fundamental rights and freedoms of the Afghan people.In conclusion, the Government of Canada is committed to doing all it can to address the recommendations made in the special committee's report. We remain committed to the people of Afghanistan and to calling out the Taliban for its unacceptable repression of the rights of women and girls.Thank you for your time. I'm looking forward to the questions.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsCivil and human rightsForeign policyGirlsHumanitarian assistance and workersRefugeesTerrorism and terroristsWomen77469537746954774695577469567746957774695877469597746960774696177469627746963774696477469657746966SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): (1635)[English]Thank you, Chair.Minister, my questions will pertain to a document entitled “Visa Facilitation Letter”, which was sent by your former chief of staff, George Young, to Senator McPhedran, who then, in turn, sent it to several hundred Afghan nationals for the purpose of attempting to evacuate them from Afghanistan.At the time that Mr. Young sent Senator McPhedran the facilitation letter template, were you aware that he had done so?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774697577469767746977SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1635)[English]To answer that question very directly, I was aware that facilitation letters were used because of the obstacles in the way of getting people to the airport, but, no, I did not authorize, nor was I aware of, how the dissemination of those letters was being done.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7746983MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1635)[English]Were you aware that Mr. Young had sent the visa facilitation letter to Senator McPhedran?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7746989Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1635)[English]Again, as to the facilitation letters, I was very focused on the operations and what was taking place on the ground. As you can imagine, it was a very high-risk operation—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7746995MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1635)[English]Thank you. I'm asking specifically about the letter that your chief of staff sent to Senator McPhedran. Senator McPhedran claims that you were copied on an email and that you knew. Is that incorrect?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77470067747007Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1635)[English]I can tell you straight out that, when it comes to those facilitation letters, I did not authorize, nor did I authorize anyone—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747013MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]I'm not asking about authorizing; I'm asking whether or not you knew that your chief of staff had sent that to Senator McPhedran. Those are two separate things. She claimed in testimony here that you knew, that you were copied on an email. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747020Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]I can tell you that I'm not aware of how the dissemination of the facilitation—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747028MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Again, because I want to get to the heart of the matter, did you know that your chief of staff sent the visa facilitation template to Senator McPhedran?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747032Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]I can tell you that I do not know how the facilitation letters were disseminated, including—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747036MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]I'll take that as a yes, because she—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747041Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]No—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747047MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]So it's a no. You didn't know. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747050Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]As I stated, I do not know how the facilitation letters were disseminated.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747056MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]How did your chief...? Senator McPhedran said that she sent you the template, or that Mr. Young sent her the template and that you were copied on this email.She is going to table that communication with the committee. Can we expect, in that communication from Senator McPhedran, to see any of your personal email addresses?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77470637747064Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]I don't know what's in, for example, the emails. I can tell you— AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747069MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]You don't know what's in your personal emails.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747078Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]—I did not authorize, nor was I authorized on, how the dissemination of the facilitation letters was done.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747081MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]You're not answering the question on whether you knew that Mr. Young had sent the template to Senator McPhedran.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747085Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]I do not know how the facilitation letters were disseminated. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747090MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]On what day did you become aware that Mr. Young had sent Senator McPhedran the facilitation letter?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747093Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]As I stated, I was so focused on a very intense—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747101MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]You know now, right? On what date did you become aware?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747105Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]I am not aware of any facilitation letters by my chief of staff and how that was done, because I didn't authorize anything. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747107MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]After you were approached by a Globe and Mail reporter on February 17, there was article entitled “Sajjan unclear on whether top adviser told him he was sharing Canadian government travel documents with senator”. Did you attempt to contact Mr. Young with regard to this matter?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747114Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]No.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747115MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]When did you become aware that Senator McPhedran had received this facilitation letter from Mr. Young?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747116Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]I was not aware of that.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747117MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Have you never become aware that there was...?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747118Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]I know that a facilitation letter—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747119MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]You do realize that this does not inspire confidence. You're saying as the Minister of Defence that you did not know that your chief of staff was sending template letters to the senator.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747120Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]If I can be allowed to put things into context here, the number of days that we were conducting the operations, because I was very focused on the operational side—Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner: Okay.Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: It is important to put this into context because of the focus that I had.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774712177471227747123MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]I have very little time.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747124Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]I know. He's trying to eat up my time here. I'm assuming I'm not going to have more luck on that question than the Globe and Mail reporter did.Do you personally monitor your personal parliamentary email account, otherwise known as the P9?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77471267747127SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]Yes, I do.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747128MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Did you monitor that account between August and September 2021?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747129Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]I can tell you that I was not looking at emails during that time.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747130MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]You did not monitor your personal email at that time, between August and September 2021.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747131Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]If I can answer the whole question, at that time, the situation was so dire that we had to stay focused, and communication at that time was done very quickly. I had no time then to be looking at emails. I was focused on the briefings, which—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747132MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Thank you.Has Mr. Young faced any consequences for sending the facilitation letter? I understand that he left the employ of various ministers' offices at the end of December 2022. Did he face any consequences for sending out the visa facilitation letter to Senator McPhedran?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77471337747134Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]These are questions that I can't.... There's no way for me to answer. I can focus on what I did during that time.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747135MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]The RCMP said that they did not find a viable case in this situation. I can't remember the exact....Did the RCMP ever approach you to question you on this matter and on whether or not you were aware?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77471367747137Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]No.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747138MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Okay.Mr. Young sent this template to Senator McPhedran, who then sent it to a wide variety of people. This was used, ostensibly, as a way to get to Canadian soldiers and other people at the airport—Canadian staff.Did Mr. Young face any consequence for forwarding a government letter to a senator who, in turn, with no security vetting of who got it, could have put Canadian soldiers or government personnel in danger?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774713977471407747141Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1640)[English]There is no way for me to answer the questions being posed, but I can tell you that my department and I, including my team, were focused on conducting the operation—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747142MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga (London West, Lib.): (1640)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Through you, I'd like to first say hi, Minister, and welcome to our committee.I'll go back to what my colleague opposite was asking. She didn't give you a lot of time to answer the questions she was asking. Can you give me an idea of how many emails you were receiving per day during that time?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774714677471477747148SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1645)[English]I'll be honest with you. I don't know. We must have been getting a number of emails, but I did not have time to look at emails. We were focused. We had a battle rhythm with our schedule to manage the operation. We were focused on being on the phone quite regularly, getting brief updates. I don't remember looking at my emails that often.AfghanistanForeign policy7747149ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1645)[English]Then it's fair to say that you wouldn't have been able to track that email. I'm only asking that question because it has been asked in this committee multiple times.Minister, the Taliban have issued over seven decrees systematically targeting women and girls, including banning education for girls and women above grade 6. In April of this year, the Taliban banned Afghan women from working for UN agencies. Afghanistan ranked last out of 146 countries on gender equality in the World Economic Forum's 2020 global gender index.Could you tell us more about how you feel when you see the situation of the rights of women disintegrating at the national level in Afghanistan? Could you also speak to what the Government of Canada is doing on this issue?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyWomen774715077471517747152Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1645)[English]This has been very alarming. We have seen, over time, the degradation of the rights of women and girls. When we were first fighting for the right of women and girls to go to school and we were trying to deal with that, the other decree came out that the Taliban did not want women to be involved with humanitarian operations.We have been working with UN partners and have been very closely in touch with Martin Griffiths, who runs UNOCHA, coordinating his trips into the region, coordinating our messages, staying in touch with our special representatives and working closely with our partners on what we can do. Some work is seen, but a lot of work is being done behind the scenes to try to get some movement.We have seen some progress, from reporting. In certain portions of the province, communities are not accepting the decree and continue the education of girls, which is good news. However, that is such a small portion. We're hoping to continue to keep the pressure on the Taliban regime on this.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyWomen774715377471547747155ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1645)[English]You mentioned in your opening remarks that Canada has allocated $143 million in humanitarian assistance to Afghanistan. Could you elaborate more on what specific kinds of supports have been provided through this funding and what additional steps can be taken with other agencies to develop comprehensive solutions that will address the needs of vulnerable Afghans?AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers7747156Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1645)[English]The needs are great right now. There is a significant concern over food security. Early after the Taliban took over Afghanistan and the winter was setting in, we knew that over the winter things would be dire, so we put in additional funding immediately of $58 million, and obviously increased it last year to over $142 million. It has focused on basic necessities of life, and medicine as well.Stephen, do you want to provide any further details?AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers77471577747158ArielleKayabagaLondon WestStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz (Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1645)[English]Sure, I'd be happy to, Minister.The government has focused on humanitarian assistance and the basic needs of Afghan individuals. The focus has been on providing blanket food assistance. The minister mentioned that 20 million people are facing food insecurity right now, acute food insecurity, but we are also focused on providing ready-to-use therapeutic feeding. These are foods delivered by UNICEF that are specifically targeted at helping children cope with malnutrition and trying to bring them back from that state.We've also supported health care through the Red Cross movement, particularly focused on supporting women's health care through the system, as well as on providing non-food items like blankets and shelter over the course of the winter.AfghanistanDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers774715977471607747161Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1645)[English]We know that delivering humanitarian aid in Afghanistan has been a difficult task due to a range of different challenges, including security risks, constraints, political instability, corruption and coordination issues. This has been a challenging environment for humanitarian aid delivery. What lessons can you tell us you've learned from this experience in delivering aid? What lessons can be applied to make this process a lot easier in the future?AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers77471627747163StephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1645)[English]Indeed, it is a massive challenge for delivering humanitarian assistance. Last year alone there were 1,400 incidents of interference by the Taliban in humanitarian deliveries. That includes efforts around diverting assistance or identifying beneficiaries who weren't part of the beneficiary role and so on.I think what that demonstrates is that the system we had in place and that we support—the international humanitarian system—is effective in monitoring and putting in place accountability mechanisms. The monitoring and reporting they do can assure us that the assistance is getting to the individuals who need it, and indeed that this can be replicated in other contexts.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers77471647747165ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): (1650)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I've just come from the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, just in time to speak to my good friend Minister Sajjan.Welcome to the committee. Thank you for being with us today.Minister, you may wonder where this question came from, but recently, an article in the Globe and Mail told us that Global Affairs Canada asked you to highlight the significant benefits of purchasing light armoured vehicles during your visit to Qatar. I thought the purpose of this visit was to talk about human rights, among other things. Now I hear that you were told that one of the key messages was to tell the Qatari authorities to buy Canadian armoured vehicles.How does selling arms to Qatar fit with your mandate as Minister of International Development?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar77471727747173774717477471757747176SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]How does it fit with your mandate as Minister of International Development to go and sell arms to Qatar?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747188Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1650)[English]I think you're referring to my briefing binder.When I go on trips, I usually have a binder like this for briefing notes. In this case, for my visit to Qatar, this was in my notes. Even with the good work that officials do during my meetings, that advice was ignored and that was not raised.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar77471897747190AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]In your briefing notes, it says “key messages”. That's what we knew. So, as I understand it, as the minister responsible for Canada's diplomatic mission in Qatar, you are not delivering the key messages that you are asked to deliver as a minister.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747191Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1650)[English]As I said, I have great respect for department colleagues and the work they do, but what is actually raised is ultimately my decision and it was not raised. AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747192AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]Were you alone on this diplomatic mission, Minister, or did others accompany you?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747193Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1650)[English]I was the only minister on the trip.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747194AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation] Did any staff participate in meetings in your absence with people responsible for diplomacy in Qatar?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747195Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1650)[English]All of the meetings that were conducted were conducted with me. I can assure you of this.These points were not raised. I stayed focused on my international development file from that region.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar77471967747197AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]All right. Thank you.I understand that when you go on a diplomatic mission and are asked to deliver key messages, you don't deliver them.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar77471987747199Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1655)[English]No. I have to make that clear. When it comes to the advice and the stuff in there, ultimately we as the ministers decide on the points we want to raise. There's always information in the book. There are various reasons. Sometimes I don't even get a chance to dig into them. Ultimately, when I'm in the meeting, I decide what points I'm willing to raise.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar77472007747201AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1655)[Translation]When you returned, then, you must have written a mission report in which you indicated that you did not deliver the key message regarding the Canadian arms sale to Qatar.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747202Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1655)[English]Fortunately, I don't have to write the reports. I have teams there to fill them, but yes, we have somebody to do that.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747203AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1655)[Translation]Do you think it was in the briefing notes because the diplomatic channels that Canada uses to talk to the Taliban go through the people in Qatar?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747204Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1655)[English]I'll be honest with you. When this case came before Global Affairs Canada, there were three different ministers—trade, me and foreign affairs—in there. Sometimes there's information that could be for other reasons, but I can assure you that for this one, it was not raised.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747205AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1655)[Translation]All right, thank you.We agree that getting humanitarian aid into Afghanistan is critical. I've just come from the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, which is working on Bill C‑41, that we've talked about several times, Minister, and which your government has been far too slow to introduce.Today, the daily La Presse tells us that Prime Minister Trudeau is going to the Global Citizen NOW summit in New York, which some NGOs are complaining about, given that Canada's humanitarian aid budget was recently cut by 15%. Yet we send a Prime Minister to strut his stuff at this summit in New York alongside some influencers, comedians and musicians.Don't you find it contradictory that we are sending the Prime Minister to strut his stuff at this summit while we are cutting the international aid budget?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational development and aidQatar7747206774720777472087747209Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1655)[English]First of all, to refer to the budget, I think we can fairly say that our government has significantly increased international development funding in the work we have done and with the approach that we take through our feminist international assistance policy.When it comes to this particular budget, no programs are being cut. At the same time, we have to be mindful that the funding we have in international development is very similar to that in Canada. We had to increase our support during COVID for Canadians, and we had to step up internationally as well for all of the programs in place.I also want to assure you that the work in international development is not over, and our commitment to increasing funding for international development remains.AfghanistanForeign policyInternational development and aid774721077472117747212AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1655)[Translation]Currently, what percentage of GDP does the international development budget represent?AfghanistanForeign policyInternational development and aid7747213Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1655)[English]I don't have the exact percentage based on GDP. We can get you the numbers.AfghanistanForeign policyInternational development and aid7747214AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1655)[Translation]Knowing this would be essential for you, Minister. When it comes to international development, the UN asks countries like Canada to contribute 0.7% of their GDP. The last time we checked, this percentage was 0.27%. This is less than what Stephen Harper was providing, which was 0.33%. The average for OECD countries is 0.42%.To say that the budget for international development is sufficient implies that NGOs are complaining without cause. I don't think that's the case. Rather, I think people in the field are aware of what is going on.Thank you, Minister.AfghanistanForeign policyInternational development and aid774721577472167747217Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): (1655)[English]Thanks very much, Madam Chair.Thank you to the minister and the officials for being at the committee.I want to get back to some pertinent points related to the evacuation effort and, more particularly, the minister's former chief of staff's engagement in that process.Senator McPhedran was before this committee. She answered very clearly this question: “Was Minister Sajjan aware you were sending out these facilitation letters?” The answer was yes.Minister, can you advise the committee on that? Were you aware of these facilitation letters, yes or no?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472217747222774722377472247747225SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1655)[English]I was not aware that Senator McPhedran was disseminating facilitation letters.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747226JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]She later on was asked a question about written correspondence related to this, and she indicated very clearly in response to that question that “he was copied on the correspondence back and forth about what we were doing.” She was referring to you when she said “he”. Are you advising the committee that you have not seen these emails?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747227Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1700)[English]At that time, we were getting a lot of emails. I wasn't reading my emails. I do get a lot of emails and am probably cc'd on them, but as I told members of this committee, I was focused on the operational aspect of Afghanistan at that time.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747228JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]That's fair enough. At the time, you were busy. However, it's been some time since that fateful day. Can you advise us whether you have gone back to look at any of your emails?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747229Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1700)[English]No, I have not.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747230JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]You have not.Assuming those emails are still sitting in your inbox, would you be able to table all correspondence you had and that was copied to you from Senator McPhedran related to this matter?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472317747232Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1700)[English]I'm sure if there are any emails, she would have already provided them, I'm assuming.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747233JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]Well, she has submitted documentation to the clerk, which has been submitted to translation, so committee members have not yet received them. I think it would be really important for committee members to also receive them from you. Would you be able to table that correspondence to us for verification? I think it's important to know the truth and to see what really went down.Would the minister be able to table that correspondence exchange?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472347747235Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1700)[English]I'm happy to take a look to see if there are any corresponding emails that are relevant to this, but I can assure you at this time that I get cc'd on emails quite regularly on things, and was even cc'd at that time and afterwards. As you also know, I moved portfolios—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747236JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]Yes, thank you.More specifically, I want to get the emails related to this particular issue because I think the heart of the matter is going to be important. Throughout her testimony, the senator indicated that a variety of ministers were aware and were copied on the emails and that at no point was she advised to cease and desist. If, in fact, that is true, I think that's important information for the committee to receive.The other issue that was indicated by the senator was that there was a small group of people in an email exchange initiated by the then minister Monsef, and your former chief of staff George Young was part of that communication. Minister, could you advise us whether you were copied on that exchange initiated by Minister Monsef?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774723777472387747239Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1700)[English]As I said, I'm not aware of those emails. I'm sure that if those emails are there, they will be forwarded to you by Senator McPhedran and others.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747240JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]May I also ask, then, for you to review the email exchanges in your personal account—because we were advised that this was sent to the minister's personal account—and bring forward correspondence related to this email initiated by Minister Monsef and the communication back and forth related to it?The senator also indicated that she had copied ministers on a rolling list of names of Afghans who received the revised facilitation letter, so I'll ask this question as well, Minister: Did you, at any point in time, pick up emails with the names of Afghans who, it was indicated, would be receiving or had received these facilitation letters?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472417747242Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1700)[English]I do not know the names.For context purposes, we were getting contacted, obviously, by many people—anybody who knew you or had contact. All those names.... People were either given a number they could call, or the names were fed through the team into the multidisciplinary—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472437747244JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]Thank you, Minister. Yes, I am aware of the process.What I'm interested in, though, are emails pertaining to the rolling list of names of Afghans the senator might have copied you on. If you can, provide those to the committee as well.Have you, at any point in time, had discussions with your former chief of staff related to the evacuation effort being made by the senator?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774724577472467747247Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]What time period are you talking about? Do you mean now or during the evacuation period?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747250JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1705)[English]This would have been during the earlier days. It appears that it would have been early in August, right around the time when these facilitation letters were issued. It was in and around that period.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747251Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]Just like for others who were trying to contact me, this was forwarded either to my chief of staff or directly to the department where they can contact and send that information directly.What I didn't want to do is get bogged down in the whole situation, as I stated. We were extremely busy with just managing security because of the intelligence—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472527747253JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1705)[English]Okay.Is the chief of staff you mentioned George Young?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472547747255Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]He was the former chief of staff, yes.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747259SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Thank you, Chair.Minister, did Mr. Young ever tell you that he had sent the facilitation letters to Senator McPhedran?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472637747264BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]No.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747265MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]In the tranche of emails that my colleague mentioned are sitting in translation right now, can members of the committee expect to see your personal email addresses copied on emails related to the facilitation letters that Senator McPhedran was sending out?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747266Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]I could very well have been cc'd on them.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747267MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]You could have been. Okay.During the time she was issuing these facilitation letters—before or after—did you ever talk to Senator McPhedran on the phone or correspond any other way with her regarding the issuance of these facilitation letters?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472687747269Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]What time period was this?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747270MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English] I meant before, during or after.In front of committee here, she claimed that you spoke on the phone with her about this. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472717747272Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]Yes. During that time she did contact me regarding people who needed to be evacuated. That's when I put her in touch with my team so that any information somebody had or names that needed to be provided could go into the system so they could be triaged properly.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747273MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Were other parliamentarians allowed to triage—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747274Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]Before you make an assumption there, I want to make this very clear. There was an interdepartmental team doing this. I'm talking about the official channels of where those names were supposed to go and who was supposed to do that.What we were trying to avoid was people contacting National Defence. We wanted to stay focused on the operation. We were trying to push them directly to the right people where work needed to be done.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472757747276MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Given that, would it be fair to say that if people had your phone number, they had a better chance of getting names on that list?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747277Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]I can assure you that having my phone number did not make any determination of who was going to be—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747278MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]I think it did, because George Young sure sent her something.Do you believe that Mr. Young should appear before this committee to set the record straight on this matter?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472797747280Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]I'm not here to speak on behalf of my former chief of staff.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747281MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]I'm asking you as a minister of the Crown. Do you believe, as a minister of the Crown, that somebody who sent a facilitation letter to a senator to send out should appear before this committee?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747282Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]That's not for me to decide.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747283MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]What is for you to decide, then, if not that?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747284Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]Can you ask a more specific question?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747285MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]That's fair enough.You and my husband both have something in common. You both served in Afghanistan, and thank you for that.You understand how imperative it is that government processes keep our men and women in uniform safe. This is why, for a variety of reasons, I have an issue with what happened here.Senator McPhedran has said that she would do this again. Do you think what she did in issuing these letters—in your words, without authorization—was ethical?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747286774728777472887747289Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]One, I'm not assuming what she did or did not do. I'm not here to investigate that. What I'm trying to say is that I did not authorize anyone on how the facilitation letters should be disseminated.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747290MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Are you aware of whether she had authorization from any minister to do this?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747291Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]I'm not aware of that at all.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747292MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Okay.George Young got this facilitation letter from someone at Global Affairs. Are you or your department aware of who that person is?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77472937747294Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]The thing is, in a lot of these questions you're asking me about what George Young did. I can't answer those questions.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747295MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]He was your chief of staff. How can you not answer that?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747296Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]I'm not overlooking my chief of staff.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747297MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]You were.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747298Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]I was focused on the work we were doing. My chief of staff, the full—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747299MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Weren't you overlooking your chief of staff?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747300Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1705)[English]To be honest, if you really want me to get into the details, we were monitoring intelligence very closely on the threats that were coming hour by hour. Things were changing. I had to stay focused on that.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747301MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Okay, that's great. Thank you.What you've said in testimony just in this interchange is that people were phoning you about people who needed to be evacuated, and you directed them to your chief of staff. Was that a special process for getting people on a list for evacuation?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77473027747303Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1710)[English]No. Instead of my taking up time in having conversations, the information about which phone number to give, what the process was and who they'd need to contact to provide names.... That's what my team was doing so that it could go into—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747304MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1710)[English]George Young was—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747305Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1710)[English]What we were trying to avoid was having people contact us at National Defence thinking we're making the decisions. We were trying to push that into the interdepartmental process, to teams that were actually doing that work.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747306MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1710)[English]Did Mr. Young act as a rogue agent, then, in this regard by sending that letter to Senator McPhedran?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747307Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1710)[English]One thing I can say is that my former chief of staff at that time worked diligently.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747308MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1710)[English]He worked diligently on sending a letter that was altered to a senator.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747309Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1710)[English]No, that's unfair. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747310MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1710)[English]But it's unfair what happened to all the people who came here, Minister. It is.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747311Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1710)[English]It's not time. I have at least 15 seconds left.The Chair: Yes.Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner: Thank you.I'll just say this. Do you actually think it's fair that 600-plus Afghan foreign nationals had a letter from a senator while your interpreter still languishes in Afghanistan?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747313774731477473157747316SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1710)[English]I'm not aware of that situation.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747317MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/92209Marie-FranceLalondeMarie-France-LalondeOrléansLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LalondeMarieFrance_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orléans, Lib.): (1710)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.I want to say thank you to the minister for joining us today. Certainly, I'll echo what my colleague has said, but maybe in a different tone. Thank you for your service. I know that you did three rounds in Afghanistan. We thank you for that, sir. It's a real honour to have you with us.My first question will be twofold. I would like you, on record, to say what your role was during the fall of Kabul, and to maybe share with this committee the biggest administrative and institutional difficulties you have faced in our government.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy774732077473217747322SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1710)[English]Thank you.Our role at National Defence and mine as Minister of National Defence was to coordinate with our closest allies to conduct the.... First of all, even before the fall of Kabul, there was the evacuation of our key personnel from Kabul. Then what we did was re-establish security. Our first focus was with the U.S. and the British at that time at the Kabul airport to get the safety parameters in place. We were trying to support the other departments in getting the Afghans, who were on the appropriate approved list, evacuated out of Kabul.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy77473237747324Marie-FranceLalondeOrléansMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/92209Marie-FranceLalondeMarie-France-LalondeOrléansLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LalondeMarieFrance_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Marie-France Lalonde: (1710)[English]Thank you very much.Minister, I don't think it's a surprise, but I'll say it here. It's always an honour for me to be the representative of Orleans, where I have the privilege of having long-standing military...and veterans, but also a very rich Afghan community, who reside there. When I see women and young girls—and I think this is where my emotion comes from—I see them free, able to go to school and able to access the very best of what Canada can offer.There was a key recommendation in the report that was tabled. Could you share with us some of the responses to the recommendations in the Afghan report, particularly on the increase in aid and the support to women and children and young girls, who are definitely right now the prime targets of the Taliban regime?AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers774732577473267747327Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1710)[English]On the support, even with the challenges within the Criminal Code, we were still able to work with close UN partners to deliver emergency support. In fact, in the early days, things were working reasonably well to get support to other areas, because certain portions of Afghanistan were actually safe to travel to then, as reported by some of the UN agencies. It was only afterwards, after some of the edicts, that it was very difficult, with the prevention of girls going to school. We were still focused on getting humanitarian support. Now the recent edicts are making it extremely difficult. If you don't mind, just on your previous point about veterans, I want to put on the record the absolutely amazing and heroic work of all Canadian Armed Forces members. I know personally some of the work that was done, and their story will never be told. I want to acknowledge, for the record, that some of us appreciate what they did during that time.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers77473287747329Marie-FranceLalondeOrléansMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/92209Marie-FranceLalondeMarie-France-LalondeOrléansLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LalondeMarieFrance_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Marie-France Lalonde: (1710)[English]I thank you very much for that. I will echo that when I go home. I sometimes talk to our Legion and some of our veterans.I'm very proud of a number, Minister—30,000. There are a little over 30,000 Afghans who can now call Canada home. That's a reflection of the work done by our government, by people from everywhere, to bring these people here. I actually had the great pleasure of welcoming some of the Afghan newcomers here.There's a particular thought...and I think I was part of it, which is Bill C-41. I would certainly like you to share a bit with our committee what this new bill being introduced means for you in your current role. How quickly should we pass it?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists774733077473317747332Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]Again, I want to take the opportunity to thank all of you for your work on this.This legislation, Bill C-41, is very important. What it will allow is for agencies that want to work in Afghanistan to get through the approval process so they can conduct their work. It will allow us to reach more people.Even with the challenges, we are focused on trying to deliver support as much as we can. We wanted to be able to not just focus on humanitarian work but also focus on education. That is still open, but at least with the legislative changes that we will eventually get done, we will have a greater capacity to do more.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists774733377473347747335Marie-FranceLalondeOrléansSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation] Thank you, Madam Chair.Simply for your information, Minister, I just came from the Standing Committee on Justice, which is studying Bill C‑41. It took you 15 months to draft an 82‑page bill, when everyone already agreed on the problem from the start. Now we hear that the Liberals might filibuster. When we say we need to move quickly, there may be a problem on your side of the House, but we'll get to that.Your mission to Qatar disturbs me, Minister.With respect to Canada's arms sale to Qatar, is it because you don't agree with that sale that you didn't put out that key message, which was in your briefing notes?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747339774734077473417747342SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]The message that I was focused on.... We talked about the challenges that were taking place in Afghanistan. We talked about how we could work together on education around the world.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747343AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]I'm sorry, Madam Chair.I don't mean to be rude, Minister, but you know that Bloc Québécois members have less time than members of other parties.My question will be much simpler and you can answer it with a yes or no.As Minister of International Development, do you agree that Canada should sell arms to a dictatorship such as Qatar, that abuses human rights?That's a pretty simple question.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar77473447747345774734677473477747348Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]I want to be clear on the question, in case there's an issue with interpretation. Are you asking me if I should be sending these key messages as Minister of International Development?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747349AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]No, I'm asking if you agree with Canada selling arms to Qatar, which is currently, let's be clear, a dictatorship that tramples on human rights, including those of the LGBTQ+ community, women and foreign workers.My question is simple, do you agree that Canada should sell arms to Qatar, yes or no?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar77473507747351Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]What I can say is that any selling of weapons we do around the world goes through a very strict regime. That is done through other ministers who have the appropriate authority, and—AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747352AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]So you agree.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747353Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]—human rights is a very strong component that's looked at.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747354AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]Do you agree, yes or no? Answer my question.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747355Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]I'm not here to make a determination. We have a good system in place—AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747356AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]As Minister of International Development, you don't have—AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747357Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]—that provides good credibility for how this work is done.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747358AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]—an opinion on selling arms to a dictatorship?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747359Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]As Minister of International Development, I'm focused on international development.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747360AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]As Minister of International Development, are you not able to tell me whether or not you agree with the fact that Canada is selling arms to a dictatorship?AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747364SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]What I'm telling you is that as Minister of International Development, I'm focused on international development and making sure that the feminist international assistance policy—AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747365AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]You know that weapons create humanitarian crises, Minister.AfghanistanForeign policyFortified vehiclesInternational tradeQatar7747366Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1715)[English]Thank you very much.I want to be clear on your former chief of staff's role, Minister. You indicated that you were busy during that time with other business, so you asked your chief of staff to take care of inquiries from others about wanting to help bring Afghans to safety. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77473707747371SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1715)[English]My chief of staff's role.... With the work that I'm doing, he's executing that as well. For example, he's coordinating the work that we needed done. Because we had so many people calling—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747372JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]—I was passing on the information. I didn't want to get bogged down.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747374JennyKwanVancouver EastSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1720)[English]I'm trying to be clear on the process and what you instructed your chief of staff.He was asked to look into inquiries from people who wanted to get to safety from Afghanistan, and then to provide them with information on the proper process, following the government process of the emails and contact information that the government has put on the public record. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77473767747377SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]What the process was, because I was getting—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747378JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1720)[English]I'm sorry. No.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747379Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1720)[English] Minister, I don't know if you understand my question. My question is not about what the process was, but rather what your instructions were for your chief of staff.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747381Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1720)[English]not about what the process was, but rather what your instructions were for your chief of staff.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747383SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1720)[English]What were the instructions?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747385Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]You asked me a question, and I'm trying to tell you exactly what took place.Because we were getting a lot of inquiries, we were trying to make sure the people who possibly had legitimate concerns had the appropriate phone number or the right people to contact so we didn't miss anybody.My chief of staff's main work was not that. It was just to make sure that if somebody had something, whether it was a senator or anybody who potentially needed to get somebody out, we didn't want to lose that opportunity. My direction was that if somebody had a name, that needed to be triaged by the appropriate decision-makers who were looking at it, and that was not our department. We wanted to make sure the information could be provided to them so that the names could go to the right place.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774738777473887747389SalmaZahidScarborough CentreJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1720)[English]They were then referred to IRCC, to GAC or to another ministry. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747390Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]Keep in mind that there was an interdepartmental team working at that time. We were trying to immediately send that information to the right people so that information could be triaged by the right folks.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747391JennyKwanVancouver EastSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister.You mentioned that you did talk on the phone with Senator McPhedran. How many times did you talk with her on the phone?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77473947747395SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]Right now, I remember one. There might have been a second time.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747396BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]Okay. Were there any other MPs or senators who called you and with whom you spoke about this issue?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747397Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]I was in touch with many different people at that time. Most of the time, I was talking, obviously, to my colleagues who were a part of the operation—the Minister of Immigration and the Minister of Foreign Affairs.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747398BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]Did any MPs or senators call you to talk about a facilitation letter? AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747399Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]I'm sorry?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747400BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]Did any of them call you to talk specifically about a facilitation letter?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747401Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]No, we weren't talking about facilitation letters. We were mainly focused on people trying to get information on either who they needed to call or where they could provide names of people they knew in the country.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747402BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]You mentioned that you were busy during this time. You spent a lot of time dealing with different issues. How much time each day did you spend on this issue?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747403Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]On what issue?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747404BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]I mean on the Afghan issue.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747405Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]It was almost 24-7. I could tell you my routine literally was—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747406BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]I don't need the routine; 24-7 is good.You're telling us that during that time you did not check your emails.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees77474077747408Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]No, I did not.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747409BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]How did you do your job if you didn't check your emails?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747410Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]To be honest with you, when you're running an operation like that, you don't have time to check your emails. We were on what we called a very strict battle rhythm of briefings and phone calls, secure phone calls, to make sure the intelligence coming in was up to date and the appropriate decisions that had to be made—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747411BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]Emails didn't factor into what you were doing.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747412Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]No. The way I look at it, I did not have time to look at emails at that time.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747413BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]When the election was called around that time, what happened to the number of hours a day you were spending on this?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747414Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]I was on this 24-7.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747415BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]The election had no impact on you.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747416Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]No, not on me.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747417BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]When did you cease working on this?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747418Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]It was only when the final flight out of Kabul was done. That's when we conducted, I think, a couple of days' work. It was then, only then, that I started going into my campaign.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747419BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]In looking back on this, do you have any regret that you didn't know about this, that you didn't read those emails and that you didn't see this? People were affected. Do you regret that it wasn't shut down, that it wasn't caught and flagged?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747420Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1720)[English]I'll be honest with you. My main focus in this, and please let me finish this one.... As to the facilitation letters, I know where you're trying to go with this in trying to find some type of smoking gun. We were focused on trying to get as many people out....I have no regret about how the process was going. In a crisis situation, everybody has to stay focused on what they're doing at that time. I am very thankful that our troops did amazing work and that we didn't lose anybody. Sadly, some of our allies did.I have no regret about what was taking place, what our actions were at National Defence and what we were doing. I wish we could have gotten more people out.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees774742177474227747423BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1725)[English]So if you were faced with one of these 600 people who were impacted, you'd just say to them, “I have no regrets.”AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747424Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1725)[English]No, that is not the case. Madam Chair, if only the member knew of the personal impact this has had on us and of the connection we have. Everything for us had even greater meaning with the work we were doing, even to this day. Our work did not finish when the final plane left.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees77474257747426BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1725)[English]We were trying to help more people come out. We knew many families could not get out, and we were still working. I know personally how we helped get families out of Pakistan, and we continue to have discussions with our allies—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747428BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1725)[English]Minister, this is my time.If you were aware that your current chief of staff, for example, told a random member of Parliament, such as me, that I could issue paperwork on my own—let's say for the crisis in Sudan that's happening right now—what action would you take?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugeesSudan77474297747430Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1725)[English]I can't answer hypothetical questions here.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugeesSudan7747431BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1725)[English]Let's ask another question then.In hindsight now, from reading the news and whatever else, you know what happened and you know the senator's involvement. Do you think the senator should be censured in any way? There are ethics codes we have. Are there any actions that you think should be taken with regard to the senator?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees77474327747433Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1725)[English]I don't know where the investigation is for it. I was told it was continuing, and I'm not going to comment on where this is going. What I can tell you is that, yes, it does need to be looked into in terms of whether facilitation letters were inappropriately given out.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747434BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1725)[English]It's something that, as a parliamentarian, I need to be briefed on, or I need to know that this is not something I should be doing. Is that what you're saying?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747435Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1725)[English]If this was done by me, would that be wrong to do?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747437Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1725)[English]It would be wrong for anybody to do it if they didn't have the authority to issue any type of document they weren't entitled to give out.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7747438BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali (Brampton Centre, Lib.): (1725)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I want to thank the minister and the officials for being here today to share their knowledge and experience with us.Minister, I know that so many questions were asked of you and that you were not given the opportunity to respond to them, especially with the facilitation letter. Would you like to add your response? You can have an opportunity.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774744377474447747445SalmaZahidScarborough CentreHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1725)[English]Thank you.With regard to the situation when we were setting up security at the Kabul airport, as I was trying to say—because we were literally monitoring, hour by hour, the different changes—there were obstacles put into place. As people were trying to get to the airport, there were checkpoints and roadblocks being conducted by the Taliban, and that became a significant challenge. We knew that some of the people we needed to get out could not get through. This is when I was advised that there was what's called a “facilitation letter”, which could be issued so they could get through those checkpoints. I was also advised that there was another process that took place when they were able to get to the airport, and apparently there was another authorization given before somebody could do that. I'm sure my colleagues or officials who have come here before have explained that.That's when I became aware of it, and it was actually only last week that I got a little more thorough understanding of how this is done because of a previous crisis. The work that was done on the ground.... Even to this day, I'm very thankful we did not lose any troops because of the amount of risk that was taken by our folks to get the Afghans out. More importantly, we were bringing the Afghans we got out straight to Canada and not leaving them in a third country.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774744677474477747448ShafqatAliBrampton CentreShafqatAliBrampton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali: (1725)[English]Thank you, Minister, for your service.Minister, we committed to resettling at least 40,000 Afghans, and we have welcomed more than 30,000 already. In fact, I have had the privilege of meeting several airplanes bringing Afghan newcomers to Canada. Given your military experience with three tours in Afghanistan, can you tell us which group of Afghans we should be most concerned about resettling in Canada?AfghanistanForeign policyRefugees77474497747450Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1730)[English]With regard to resettling in Canada, what I can tell you is that the message.... Regarding some of the folks who are in Afghanistan now, the fear they're facing is what still, obviously, concerns me the most. I wish there was a more expeditious way to get out more of the people we're still trying to get out. I'm thankful that some of them found other ways to get out and that we found ways to bring them over here.The last message I want to leave is that we're not going to stop, even now, trying to support the Afghans and bringing them back here. I'm thankful for some of our allies, who I've met with personally. I think of when we met with the Prime Minister of Pakistan to make sure we could expedite the exit permits for some of the Afghans who haven't made it across the border.AfghanistanForeign policyRefugees77474517747452ShafqatAliBrampton CentreShafqatAliBrampton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali: (1730)[English]Minister, I've heard that some UN organizations are considering making the continuation of their operations in Afghanistan conditional upon permitting women to be employed by them. As Bill C-41 allows the safety minister to impose conditions on the authorization to provide humanitarian assistance, is Canada considering making women staffing a condition of Canadian assistance? What are the pros and cons of requiring such a condition?AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersWomen7747453Harjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver SouthHarjit S.SajjanHon.Vancouver South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89497Harjit S.SajjanHon.HarjitS--SajjanVancouver SouthLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SajjanHarjit_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Harjit S. Sajjan: (1730)[English]We are going through the pros and cons with our trusted allies. When I was most recently in the region, I spoke with our special representative and the special representatives of other countries to get other nations' perspectives as well. Personally, I think we need to put some conditions on this if we're going to get the Taliban decrees removed. My message has been, from the beginning.... Even when we served in Afghanistan, sometimes it felt like we were caring more about their people. All we want to do in Canada is help the Afghan people and make sure that everyone is helped, especially women and girls.We call on the Taliban regime to remove those decrees to make sure that everyone is helped and, at the same time, make sure that girls get the education that they deserve. The country will actually be better off and more successful if they allow this, and this has been shown in many other countries. However, I'm happy to say that portions of Afghanistan are not following the decree, and I commend those people for doing so.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersWomen77474547747455ShafqatAliBrampton CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1740)[English]Thank you so much, Madam Chair.I will start with a general question about some of the topics we're talking about.Do any of you at the table have any understanding or knowledge of what was happening with Senator McPhedran and the facilitation letters? Have you been privy to any internal investigation?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees774746477474657747466SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan (Director General, South Asia Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1740)[English]We can all speak individually for ourselves. I have not.AfghanistanDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747467MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillChristopherGibbinsChristopherGibbinsChristopher-GibbinsInterventionMr. Christopher Gibbins (Executive Director, Afghanistan-Pakistan, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1740)[English]No.AfghanistanDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747468Marie-LouiseHannanNancySegalNancySegalNancy-SegalInterventionMs. Nancy Segal (Deputy Director, Crime and Terrorism Policy Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1740)[English]No.AfghanistanDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7747469ChristopherGibbinsMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1740)[English]Nobody at the table here has. Okay.What I would like to do is go through the.... Are you familiar with the recommendations of the Special Committee on Afghanistan we're studying here? Yes, okay.Given your experience with the evacuation from Afghanistan and the report's findings, what advice or recommendations have you provided the government for the implementation of some of those recommendations, particularly with regard to special mechanisms to evacuate persons in emergent situations? Are those mechanisms being utilized in the situation in Sudan?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan774747077474717747472NancySegalMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1740)[English]I'm happy to point the committee to a response about what we do in this sort of emergency situation when there is a crisis under way, as a matter of course. I believe our assistant deputy minister for consular and emergency matters appeared before this committee in the March session. I don't have the date, but the response she gave at the time about how we follow the procedures in place stands.I'll refer to the response provided by our ADM for consular and emergency matters. Those procedures are certainly in place now, and our emergency watch and response centre is being staffed by qualified professionals, plus a number of volunteers from across the department who are responding to the crisis at hand.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan77474737747474MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1740)[English]Thank you.In the Toronto Star on April 23, there was a line in an article regarding the evacuation from Sudan that noted, “U.S. special forces evacuated six Canadian diplomats.” Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan77474757747476Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1740)[English]I am not working in the consular emergency area. I cannot confirm the accuracy of a Toronto Star article reporting on what happened.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747477MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1740)[English]It was more of a context question for my next one. If you had to look at an overall percentage or some other measure of capacity, how much is Canada reliant on peer nations' military capacity to assist in evacuations in situations such as Afghanistan's or the one we're seeing in Sudan?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy7747478Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1740)[English]I will offer the observation that military capacity is only one aspect of the response to an emergency evacuation situation. It is not only military capacity that we bring to bear. There's an awful lot of diplomacy involved in negotiating with host nations, partner nations and partners on the ground to ensure the safe passage of people, because in the case of an emergency situation, it's unpredictable, and people will find their own ways to cross borders and may be unsafe. We never recommend for Canadians to put themselves in harm's way, but we try to help at every stage. The military response is only one aspect.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy7747479MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]I understand that diplomacy plays a part in it, but I'm speaking about the actual physical act of removing people from the country, which requires resources like aircraft or requires securing an airfield. That does require military capacity, and that's the intersection point, of course, with your diplomatic efforts.Right now, in terms of diplomacy—particularly given learnings from Afghanistan—how much is Canada relying on other peer nations' military capacity to physically evacuate persons, even based on your diplomatic efforts? How much of our diplomatic efforts right now are also being spent on persuading peer nations to use their military capacity to evacuate Canadian citizens?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy77474807747481Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1745)[English]I'd refer to my previous response in that I believe the military response, the military capacity or that aspect of evacuation is really only one part of the response. It is not only this mechanism that is used. I'm afraid that I'm not able to respond by estimating a percentage of reliance upon other nations.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy7747482MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]As you are some of the persons who have a responsibility for that diplomatic capacity, do you find that Canada's lack of military capacity in the actual physical evacuation component—either in Afghanistan or, as we're seeing now, in Sudan—is problematic? Does that provide an additional barrier to evacuating Canadians quickly in a situation like this?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy7747483Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1745)[English]Again, it's very difficult to comment on aspects of the situation that are not under the mandate of Global Affairs Canada.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy7747484MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Surrey—Newton, Lib.): (1745)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to welcome the officials to this committee meeting. Along with many of my constituents from Surrey—Newton, I am concerned about women's and girls' rights in Afghanistan. I would like to ask the officials if they can speak about some of the challenges that women and girls are facing in Afghanistan and about the restrictions and hurdles they currently face. What are we doing to overcome those?My second question will be related to minorities. Many people from different faith groups have come to me and said that the places of worship of people with Christian, Sikh and Hindu faiths are being bombed by the Taliban. I would like to see comments in regard to minority rights in those situations and also when it comes to not only ethnicity but also sexual orientation.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyGirlsMinoritiesWomen7747489774749077474917747492SalmaZahidScarborough CentreChristopherGibbinsChristopherGibbinsChristopher-GibbinsInterventionMr. Christopher Gibbins: (1745)[English]Thank you for the question.The issue of women's and girls' rights and minority rights is a deeply distressing one, as the minister mentioned during the previous session. The Taliban have been very systematic and continue to be very systematic about their erosion of all rights and the erasure of women from Afghan society. That includes restrictions on movements and access to education and jobs, not least of which most recently has meant the banning of women from working with international and national NGOs as well as most recently with the UN. As we heard in the previous session, the UN is very actively engaged with us and all international donors in seeking a reversion of the edicts that the Taliban have decreed. It is an extremely challenging environment and it's very difficult to say where that's going to take us, but the engagement remains very committed and focused on those rights. At the same time, there's also a real acknowledgement of fundamental basic humanitarian needs and the need for those to be seen to or addressed, to the best of our ability, regardless.In terms of minority rights, the Taliban have not followed through on their commitments on that front either. The most egregious attacks on minorities have been conducted by other terrorist organizations, mostly notably the Islamic State. The Taliban is not doing a terribly good job at containing the Islamic State or other terrorist organizations, and those communities also remain vulnerable.Perhaps I'll stop there.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyMinoritiesWomen77474937747494774749577474967747497SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1750)[English]I would like a sense from the officials of what our government has done over the past 18 months or so that has impacted the lives of women, girls and minorities when it comes to delivering humanitarian aid to Afghanistan.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers7747498ChristopherGibbinsStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1750)[English]As I mentioned in previous interventions, Canada has been a significant donor to humanitarian assistance in Afghanistan. Our focus has been on food security and responding to the needs of the most vulnerable. Because of the nature of the repression of women and girls in Afghanistan, they are, indeed, among the most vulnerable. The assistance we provide through our humanitarian partners is focused on responding to their specific needs.As I mentioned, food security is one of those needs. We also support significant funding for medical assistance to maintain medical facilities and the delivery of medical services for the population, but it is particularly focused on women's and girls' needs.In addition, we have significant programming in place to procure internationally therapeutic food for children who are facing malnutrition. The most vulnerable families in Afghanistan face incredible challenges in maintaining the nutrition of their children. The support the Canadian government provides in procuring and distributing these life-saving therapeutic foods is important for supporting the most vulnerable.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workers774749977475007747501SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1750)[English]I would also like to know what other work the department is doing in coordinating with some of the other countries.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersInternational cooperation7747502StephenSalewiczChristopherGibbinsChristopherGibbinsChristopher-GibbinsInterventionMr. Christopher Gibbins: (1750)[English] Canada is very much among the international donors as well as a part of the special representative and special envoys group and the discussions that take place. We have our special representative based in Doha, where about 17 or 18 other counterparts are based. They meet regularly among themselves and with the UN and implementing partners. They meet as required and in smaller groups with the Taliban to convey particular messaging. They also interact with a range of other Afghan counterparts, including women's rights defenders. There's a coordination—AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersInternational cooperation7747503SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1750)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I thank the department officials for being here to participate in this important study. I also thank them for their work. They have my admiration, as the work of the department must not always be easy.I would like to ask a question that the witnesses will have no difficulty answering.As we know, Canadian non-governmental organizations can no longer do their work on the ground in Afghanistan because the Criminal Code considers the Taliban a terrorist entity.As a result of the fall of Kabul, has the department had to terminate any of its contracts with Canadian non-governmental organizations?AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizations77475077747508774750977475107747511SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarie-LouiseHannanNancySegalNancy-SegalInterventionMs. Nancy Segal: (1750)[Translation]That won't be necessary, as I understood it well.Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, thank you for your question.There are obviously constraints imposed by the Criminal Code, but there are certain steps that can be taken to avoid them. In fact, that is what the government has done with respect to humanitarian assistance.(1755)[English]I am not privy to that. I'm on the counterterrorism policy side. I know that with regard to our assistance, mitigation measures were put in place that allowed for our assistance to continue.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizations7747514774751577475167747517Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1755)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I'll repeat my question: did the department have to terminate any contracts?AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizations77475247747525SalmaZahidScarborough CentreStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1755)[English]No, we did not cancel any contracts. We had agreements in place with partners already. Those agreements continued until their end. What we couldn't do is start new contracts. We could not put in place new programming with NGOs, and that was the constraint we were living under with the law currently in place. That was a challenge for us, and that's why we refocused our efforts. All our efforts are now through multilateral organizations.We could not support NGOs as a result, so we did not cancel any contracts. We could not start new programming.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizations77475267747527AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1755)[Translation]Thank you for your very good response.If I understand correctly, no contracts were terminated, but no other contracts were entered into as a result of the change in Afghanistan.In addressing my friend Mr. Dhaliwal, you gave a little bit of background on the women and girls who are on the ground right now. Religious minorities in Afghanistan have also been targeted by the Taliban; I am thinking of the Hazaras, among others.Do you have any reports on the current situation of the Hazaras, in Afghanistan, and what the Canadian government should do to help these people?AfghanistanForeign policyHazaras7747528774752977475307747531StephenSalewiczChristopherGibbinsChristopherGibbinsChristopher-GibbinsInterventionMr. Christopher Gibbins: (1755)[Translation]Thank you for your question.The Hazaras have been specifically targeted by the Islamic State. The Taliban did not protect them. Yet, the Taliban had indicated that they could protect Hazara communities, but so far they have not done so. The attacks on Hazara communities have been carried out by the Islamic State.AfghanistanForeign policyHazaras77475327747533AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1755)[Translation]Since the fall of Kabul, you have no reports of what the Taliban are doing to the Hazara community. Is that correct?AfghanistanForeign policyHazaras7747534ChristopherGibbinsChristopherGibbinsChristopherGibbinsChristopher-GibbinsInterventionMr. Christopher Gibbins: (1755)[Translation]To my knowledge, there have been no targeted attacks. That said, there is no support or protection, but there should be.AfghanistanForeign policyHazaras7747535AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1755)[Translation]All right.We have differing opinions on this, but I will also have other experts' opinions, at the upcoming meetings of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.Six months ago, we received the government's response to the report submitted by the Special Committee on Afghanistan. What measures has the department put in place to implement the recommendations in the report?AfghanistanForeign policy774753677475377747538ChristopherGibbinsMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1755)[English]I'll take this question.The government response included 37 responses to the recommendations made in this report: 20 went to my colleagues at IRCC, 14 went to Global Affairs Canada and three were with Justice or Public Safety Canada as the lead. We have an extensive table of the recommendations, the responses and the status. It is very detailed.Global Affairs Canada has taken responsibility for these 14 recommendations, and those are the ones being implemented, including within our department, to continue our.... We have progress on the humanitarian response and progress on responding to the ongoing requests in a number of areas.AfghanistanForeign policy774753977475407747541AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1800)[Translation] Your department is still responsible for providing emergency humanitarian assistance in Afghanistan. Currently, it has to do so through international organizations, as it is still difficult for Canadian NGOs, as Bill C‑41 has still not passed. So you have goals. That's what you just told us.Do you have a mechanism to evaluate whether you are meeting those goals? How do you know whether or not those goals are being met?AfghanistanForeign policy774754277475437747544Marie-LouiseHannanStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1800)[English]Our aid is very focused, as I said, on a few key sectors. Food and nutrition is one of them, as is health care.We work with just a small number of partners. They report back to us on a regular basis with annual reports, but we're also in touch with them regularly through their headquarters or at the field level to receive indications of how they're using our support. Remember that Canadian support is one among—AfghanistanForeign policy77475457747546AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1800)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to the officials.One of the issues around Afghanistan is, of course, to bring Afghans who served Canada to safety, along with their loved ones. The government did bring in a special immigration measure; however, for all intents and purposes, the number that has been established is now full up. Many Afghans who served Canada, and their loved ones, are not going to have their applications processed. They will not be able to get a file number.The minister indicated at the beginning of today's meeting that he supported all 37 recommendations from the Special Committee on Afghanistan, and part of those recommendations called for the government to bring those who served Canada, and their loved ones, to Canada safely. Have officials engaged in any discussions at all with the minister on ensuring that those individuals have an opportunity to get to safety? The 40,000 limit, the quota that's been established for that special immigration measure, needs to be lifted.AfghanistanForeign policyImmigration policyRefugees774755077475517747552SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1800)[English]The interdepartmental effort continues to fulfill the commitment to bring the 40,000 Afghans who are eligible under this program to Canada. As you know, recently that number reached 30,000—that's an important milestone—so efforts to make the passage to Canada possible continue for those who are already outside Afghanistan. For those who remain in Afghanistan, the questions are much more complex.I believe that efforts to reach the goals will continue first, before any discussion takes place about surpassing and going beyond the commitments that have already been made.AfghanistanForeign policyImmigration policyRefugees77475537747554JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1800)[English]I can tell the officials that currently—and perhaps officials are aware—there is a court case challenging the government. This is for 24 former employees of a law firm who were retained by the embassy. One of them is a guard employed by the embassy. They're now in hiding, fearful for their lives.Their applications, by the way, in the Special Committee on Afghanistan.... It appears that those files were lost; the government can't seem to find them. DND had them and submitted them to Immigration Canada, but Immigration Canada never got them. Anyway, it was a long and arduous process.There's one cluster of people who are like that. There are others, by the way, including an individual I know of who served the minister. His brother is stranded abroad, as an example.This can't be the approach. We can't carry on business as usual as though those people's lives don't matter. They've risked their lives to serve Canada.Is it the case that all discussions around this intergovernmental table are just zeroing in on the quota that has been set? Has there been any discussion on how the quota came about? How did people come up with the 40,000? How did they set the quota for family members and individuals who served Canada?AfghanistanForeign policyImmigration policyRefugees77475557747556774755777475587747559Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1805)[English]I obviously cannot comment on a matter before the courts in a legal challenge right now. Also, in accordance with the decision-making process, I will not comment on the way the determination was made to set targets. It is our job as officials to carry out the decisions of the government, and that's what everyone is working very hard to complete and do amidst very significant challenges.AfghanistanForeign policyImmigration policyRefugees7747560JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1805)[English]It's fair enough that it is not within the officials' authority to set the quota; I fully understand that. However, I hope that officials engage in the discussion about what happens to the people who have been left behind. I get that these situations are challenging, but they're nowhere near as challenging as they are for the people whose lives hang in the balance of Canada's making good on its duty to care and its duty to bring those who served Canada to safety. I hope that discussion is taking place among officials and that perhaps there's advice for the government's consideration in terms of Canada's living up to our responsibility to those individuals and their families. Similarly, some of these issues have come up in a related situation. We now have a crisis going on in Sudan as well, and we know that in the effort that has taken place, the priority for the government is to take Canadians to safety. However, those who were locally hired and who served the Canadian government are again at the back of the bus.Are there any discussions among officials about those individuals? What effort is being made to bring them to safety? AfghanistanForeign policyImmigration policyRefugees774756177475627747563Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1805)[English]I am afraid the ongoing situation we're living through at the moment is not something I can comment on, and I believe it's not the subject of our discussion today.AfghanistanForeign policyImmigration policyRefugees7747564JennyKwanVancouver EastSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1805)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you to you guys for coming today. It's been nearly a year since the Special Committee on Afghanistan released its report on the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan. Many of the recommendations suggested that the government review how it reacts to international crisis and present a whole-of-government approach while working together to surge resources, etc. We've all seen this. In fact, the government's response to recommendation one said that most of the government departments involved have undertaken reviews. Ms. Hannan, did your department undertake a review based on the results in Afghanistan?AfghanistanForeign policy7747568774756977475707747571SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1805)[English]Global Affairs definitely conducted an after-action review, as is customary after any kind of emergency evacuation. It seems that we have been conducting after-action review after after-action review in the past few years, because there are so many competing global crises we have to respond to.In this case, certainly one was completed, and an effort was made to identify strengths and areas for improvement in our internal operational readiness and effectiveness as well as in the coordination we do across the whole of government.AfghanistanForeign policy77475727747573BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1805)[English]Was a report or some kind of document created out of that?AfghanistanForeign policy7747574Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1805)[English]The emergency management program does create a report for internal use, yes. AfghanistanForeign policy7747575BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1805)[English]Is that something that could be provided to the committee?AfghanistanForeign policy7747576Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1805)[English]I'm afraid I can't answer that question, but I can go back to check with our officials responsible for consular and emergency management on that question.AfghanistanForeign policy7747577BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1805)[English]Madam Chair, can we push that question back to the officials?AfghanistanForeign policy7747578Marie-LouiseHannanSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1805)[English]I'll ask the clerk to find out. AfghanistanForeign policy7747579BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1805)[English]Thank you.As you know, there is a crisis in Sudan right now, and we're hearing that Canada has no ability to evacuate its citizens. We talked about that a bit before. Does your department have staff in Sudan, or did your department have staff in Sudan?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan774758077475817747582SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1810)[English]The question is whether our department had staff in Sudan, and I can confirm that we had a mission in Juba, South Sudan.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747583BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1810)[English]Have those staff members been evacuated out of the country?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747584Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1810)[English]Like many Canadians, I've heard in the media.... I can confirm that yes, it's been reported that several of our diplomats have been evacuated. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747585BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1810)[English]Were those staff evacuated on the Canadian air force's planes and equipment?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747586Marie-LouiseHannanStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1810)[English]I'm sorry, but I don't have the specifics about the evacuation. I can say that we did have staff—diplomats—in Khartoum who were engaged in Global Affairs business. As to how they were evacuated, I don't have that information, but they were evacuated. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747587BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1810)[English]To your knowledge, does Canada have the ability to go into Sudan and airlift Canadians out?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747588StephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1810)[English]It's not a question I can answer, sorry. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747589BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1810)[English]Okay.What was the complexity of getting our people in your department out of Sudan most recently?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan77475907747591StephenSalewiczMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1810)[English]I'm afraid the people who have been called as officials to this committee today are not the people who can respond to the question. We would like to be as helpful as possible, but we have not been involved in the response to this particular crisis, nor are we the geographic or sector experts in the current crisis. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan7747592BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1810)[English]I understand. As you know, there is a strike going on right now. How has this strike affected your department's ability to deal with situations like the one going on in Sudan right now?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan77475937747594Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1810)[English]I can offer a personal perspective. I have observed a number of volunteers coming forward and helping with the response to the current crisis. I've seen that we've set up our emergency watch and response centre, and in the geographic area where I am responsible, a number of people have come forward to do extra duty. I see them working on extended schedules, day in and day out. The strike is another situation we're managing, but I have not seen severe impacts from the strike on our ability to respond. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policySudan77475957747596BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): (1810)[Translation]Good evening.Thank you, Madam Chair.I should point out at the outset that I am not a permanent member of the committee. I apologize if I am asking questions that have already been asked.I would like to talk a little bit about Bill C‑41 and the solution it seeks to provide to a very difficult situation. Like other members of Parliament, I have received a great deal of correspondence over the past year or more from people who are concerned about the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan. Many people have written to me asking that an exemption be created to allow aid to get to those in need in Afghanistan.To begin, can you give us an example or an overview of the challenges there currently are on the ground with respect to the delivery of humanitarian aid in Afghanistan? Could you give us a picture of the situation and the challenges that are being faced in helping people in need in Afghanistan?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists77476027747603774760477476057747606SalmaZahidScarborough CentreStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1810)[English]Indeed, Afghanistan is a challenging environment to operate in for our humanitarian partners. As already described, the de facto authorities in Afghanistan have imposed a number of restrictions on partners—NGO partners initially and now the UN—to disallow female workers to deliver humanitarian assistance. This has a severe impact on the ability of partners to work, particularly because many of the services that are delivered are focused on women and girls. The ability to reach women and girls without having women in the workforce is, of course, a major challenge.The challenges extend beyond just these mere bans, however, to interference by the de facto authorities in the ability of our partners to work. De facto authorities are putting in place different measures to restrict or interfere with the work of our partners. In many cases, that could be at a very local level, beyond that broad-level ban that I discussed already. At the local level, officials sometimes interfere with identifying beneficiaries, wanting to privilege certain groups within their communities and so on. That creates significant problems for our partners to continue to deliver. I think the positive part about this, though, is that our partners have systems in place to report on those elements of interference, and they do put a stop to the delivery of assistance in those cases until the situation has been resolved.It is a very challenging context. It's one of the more difficult contexts to work in for humanitarian partners.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists774760777476087747609FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisFrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-Louis//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25453FrancisScarpaleggiaFrancis-ScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ScarpaleggiaFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Scarpaleggia: (1815)[Translation] I find your response very interesting. It seems like right now, no help is coming into the country.Can you give us an idea of how Bill C‑41, by granting an exemption, is going to improve the situation you just described, where the Taliban are blocking humanitarian aid? It's not because we're not trying to send it, it's because it is being blocked, or we've stopped sending it so it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists77476107747611StephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1815)[English]Just to be clear, there's interference at the local level. Aid is coming in. Indeed, last year, with Canada's assistance, the broader donor community provided food aid to 26 million people. Food aid is coming in. Broader assistance is happening.There is a challenging operating context at the local level, and our partners deal with that on a regular basis, but they are successful in responding. Where Bill C-41AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists77476127747613FrancisScarpaleggiaLac-Saint-LouisSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1815)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I've been working on this for a year and a half, and I want to clarify something: Bill C‑41 does not provide an exemption, currently. NGOs have to apply, and the burden of proof is on them to convince the government that they are not funding terrorism. That has to be very clear.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsTerrorism and terrorists77476177747618SalmaZahidScarborough CentreStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1815)[English]Just to be clear, when I talk about humanitarian assistance, I'm talking about the broad, international humanitarian system in place that is providing multi-billion dollars' worth of support. If we're talking just about the Canadian response and Canadian partners, that's something a bit different—AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsTerrorism and terrorists7747619AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1815)[Translation]Excuse me for interrupting, but I have less time to speak than my Liberal and Conservative colleagues, whom I appreciate.The Liberals say that—AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsTerrorism and terrorists77476207747621StephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1815)[English]Canadian NGOs are challenged because of Bill C-41 right now. They're challenged because of the counterterrorism law, which we've discussed already.Maybe my colleague would like to go down that road.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsTerrorism and terrorists77476227747623AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanNancySegalNancySegalNancy-SegalInterventionMs. Nancy Segal: (1815)[English]Yes. Thanks very much.For sure there are many challenges. This is a unique situation where a terrorist group is in control of an entire country. NGOs have been operating in high-conflict areas with terrorist activity for a long time, using effective mitigation measures to manage the criminal liability risk, through their actions, of.... The humanitarian action itself is legal. It's the payment to terrorist groups that is illegal.Yes, you're right. The authorization regime is not an exemption. It is an authorization regime to protect NGOs from that criminal liability, the unavoidable benefit from them.... The purpose is to facilitate the actions of the NGOs.AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsTerrorism and terrorists774762477476257747626StephenSalewiczAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1820)[Translation] The question could have been answered by yes or no. I unfortunately wasted a lot of time on this. NGOs are asking why we didn't just create an exemption, as has been done in different countries. You must have been involved in the discussions, for example, on UN Security Council Resolution 2615, which simply asked us to exempt NGOs and allowed a humanitarian exemption under international humanitarian law or the Geneva Convention. It would have been so simple to implement that resolution.You were involved in those conversations, as we were told that all the departments were talking to each other—AfghanistanForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsTerrorism and terrorists774762777476287747629NancySegalSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1820)[English]Thank you.I just want to ask about the interdepartmental efforts.At the Special Committee on Afghanistan, one of the recommendations was for the government to actually review the undertakings of the Afghanistan situation and propose recommendations, as well as review what worked, what didn't and what needs to be improved. Has that work been done in your department?AfghanistanForeign policy774763277476337747634SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1820)[English]Yes. The government response was tabled, I think, in October 2022, and a number of items that Global Affairs Canada is responsible for have been worked on in the intervening times since that crisis.I can confirm that a number of reviews have taken place, including examining the interdepartmental effort. In a situation as large and complex as this one and involving so many departments, it's normal that it takes some time to review how we could improve our response.AfghanistanForeign policy77476357747636JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1820)[English]With respect this department's response, is there a separate, individual report related to this that has been completed? If so, can that be tabled with the committee for review?AfghanistanForeign policy7747637Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1820)[English]I believe this is very similar to a question asked earlier about the after-action review. I responded by saying that this review has been completed for Global Affairs Canada, and I am not aware of the status of the report or whether that can be shared. However, we will endeavour to take that back to colleagues who are responsible under the emergency management and consular management part of the department to follow up on, and we'll ask whether that can be shared.AfghanistanForeign policy7747638JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1820)[English]Thank you.I will just read into the record recommendation one, the latter part of it. It says:Furthermore, that the Government of Canada, while protecting any security clearance requirements, share the full outcome of its review with all relevant departments and agencies, and summarize the review's main findings in its response to this Special Committee's report.The government accepted these recommendations. If these reports have been completed, none have been tabled that I'm aware of. Why is that? That's what I'm concerned about.AfghanistanForeign policy7747639774764077476417747642Marie-LouiseHannanSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire (Brandon—Souris, CPC): (1820)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to my colleague.Ms. Hannan, you mentioned earlier the diplomacy involved in some of the discussions that have taken place among, I believe you mentioned, various departments. Can you elaborate a little on that and what you mean by “diplomacy involved” to that extent? How has that developed through the different departments and how many are involved?AfghanistanDiplomacy and diplomatsEvacuationForeign policyInternational cooperation77476537747654SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1825)[English]Could I please seek a clarification? Is this pertaining to the Afghanistan situation in August 2021, or is this a broader question?AfghanistanDiplomacy and diplomatsEvacuationForeign policyInternational cooperation7747655LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1825)[English]It's a broader question in reference to your comment in your first answers with regard to the diplomacy involved.AfghanistanDiplomacy and diplomatsEvacuationForeign policyInternational cooperation7747656Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1825)[English]I believe in my earlier answers I said that in general, when we're talking about a situation of evacuation of Canadian citizens, it's an emergency or crisis situation and there is quite a lot of diplomacy involved. What I mean by “diplomacy” is our interactions with other countries.As part of the mandate of Global Affairs Canada and our 170-plus locations around the world, we establish relationships with host governments and with a number of government departments wherever we're located. We really use those relationships when a crisis emerges. We also use our relationships with the diplomats representing their countries in those locations to see if we can work out solutions and be as helpful as possible, and to turn some of those relationships into solutions to assist Canadians in a time of emergency or in a time of crisis.AfghanistanDiplomacy and diplomatsEvacuationForeign policyInternational cooperation77476577747658LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1825)[English]You also made reference to reliance. I'm not referring to just the Afghan situation or even the Sudanese situation that's arising right now. Is any of that tied to the situation in Ukraine as well?AfghanistanDiplomacy and diplomatsEvacuationForeign policyInternational cooperation7747659Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1825)[English]I apologize, but I'll just ask if the question can be repeated and if this is a question on reliance. I think I heard that word, but I am not sure.AfghanistanDiplomacy and diplomatsEvacuationForeign policyInternational cooperation7747660LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1825)[English]Yes. I'm using your word from your opening remarks. There was a reliance that you said you were dealing with in regard to some of those areas, and it refers to Afghanistan and the current situation in Sudan. Are there any separate rules used there or any parallels between what you've been able to learn about reliance in the situation today and in the present situation in Ukraine?AfghanistanDiplomacy and diplomatsEvacuationForeign policyInternational cooperation7747661Marie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1825)[English]When I use the word “reliance”, what I am referring to is that we rely on our existing relationships; we rely on the networks that are established. As diplomats working for Canada abroad, we actually invest quite a lot of time and effort into establishing those networks and those relationships. Then we can rely on them to help us find solutions to problems such as in an emergency situation.AfghanistanDiplomacy and diplomatsEvacuationForeign policyInternational cooperation7747662LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1825)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I want to first thank the officials for staying for the full two hours and continuing to respond to the committee's questions on this specific issue.Earlier we were talking about some of the lessons we have learned or can learn and can continue to use in other situations. Can you comment on how Canada can work with international partners and organizations to support the rights and empowerment of women and girls in Afghanistan and in other countries facing similar challenges? We know there are crises arising around the world, and right now the most pressing one is the situation in Sudan. In connection with my question earlier on some of the lessons we are learning and have learned, what are some of the bridges you're looking to continue to build with other countries and organizations to make sure we're there for women and girls in situations like this?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyGirlsWomen774766677476677747668SalmaZahidScarborough CentreStephenSalewiczStephenSalewiczStephen-SalewiczInterventionMr. Stephen Salewicz: (1825)[English]Indeed this is the focus of a lot of work on the humanitarian front. My colleagues here might have other answers, but on the humanitarian front, our focus has been continuing to learn how to improve protection from violence during crises like this.The targeting of women and girls during crises like this is an unfortunate outcome, actually, and a lot of our focus and a lot of the efforts we make as a country within the international sector are about how to protect women and girls in these contexts and how to advance their rights through international humanitarian law and by supporting partners who advocate for their rights and who indeed remain on the ground in situ during conflicts to advance and try to protect women in these contexts.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyGirlsWomen77476697747670ArielleKayabagaLondon WestMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-LouiseHannanMarie-Louise-HannanInterventionMs. Marie-Louise Hannan: (1830)[English]Thank you. I think I can complement that.I believe that you're looking for examples of ways we engage with other countries. I think a very good one is through our ambassador for women, peace and security. That mechanism is very effective at bringing the focus to conflict situations and other crises around the world. It looks at how we can engage using a feminist lens to consider the unique impacts on women and how women can engage with other women in order to find solutions to challenges and a way forward, again using diplomacy.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyGirlsWomen77476717747672StephenSalewiczArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1830)[English]I'm of the same opinion. When it comes to conflicts and resolutions in countries that are experiencing war, I believe that women should be at the forefront—they are not yet—because they have a lot to lose. Women lose their children. They lose their homes. They lose their communities. They lose so much, and they're not part of the conflict creation but are often removed from those conversations. I really appreciate you commenting on that and talking about the importance of keeping women at the forefront.I don't have time for another question, but thank you so much for taking these questions from us.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyGirlsWomen77476737747674Marie-LouiseHannanSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88925JenniferO'ConnellJennifer-O-ConnellPickering—UxbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OConnellJennifer_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Jennifer O'Connell (Pickering—Uxbridge, Lib.): (1710)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you both for being here today. It's been very interesting to hear your perspectives. Certainly, tying it back to the past and sometimes not reinventing the wheel, we can see what's playing out.One of my questions alludes to what was already said, but it's for both of you if you'd like to chime in.With regard to the misinformation piece, I find it very interesting that especially in the U.S. you see Republican right-wing commentators now talking about their support for Putin. Never did I think I'd see the day when members of the Republican Party would support Putin outright and share very clearly Kremlin-type lines or Russian media lines.I have two points or questions. With regard to misinformation in the west, we probably even see it on all of our social media. If you ever post in support of Ukraine, all of a sudden you get all of these anti-Ukraine messages. How critical is misinformation in the west in terms of the overall public support for us as Canadians to continue to support Ukraine?As to the second point of this question, in the U.S. political sphere, how solid are the institutions? If there were a change in leadership, do we risk the U.S.'s support of Ukraine not being as strong? Let's be honest. The U.S. contribution to supporting Ukraine is significant, like Canada's, but that would be crucial.I know that was a long preamble, but could you speak to any sort of change or concerns with regard to the U.S. political situation right now?DisinformationForeign policyRussiaUkraineUnited States of AmericaWar7743252JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodBrianJenkinsBrianJenkinsBrian-JenkinsInterventionMr. Brian Jenkins: (1710)[English]Since you mentioned the U.S. so many times, let me go first very quickly.First, I am ferociously non-partisan, but that doesn't mean I'm not aware of the political situation. The partisan divide in the United States has been growing deeper over the years and is so deep now that in fact it has projected deep into the realm of the national security and foreign policy of the United States. That accounts for a certain amount of the criticism of U.S. support for Ukraine. It's because of who is in the White House right now and because of the attitudes of the previous occupant of the White House.In addition to that, there's a further layer, in that Russia portrays itself as being a defender of certain values against certain liberal decadence in its propaganda of transsexual predators and things of this sort. That resonates with an extremist portion of our population, so we're talking about a values issue as well. That's in addition to the very traditional people who are determined to promote peace and who approach it from the other side of the spectrum.I honestly watch this carefully. I don't know how this is going to play out in 2024, but I would say that it is certainly going to be part of the political discussion in this country going forward.DisinformationForeign policyRussiaUkraineUnited States of AmericaWar7743253774325477432557743256JenniferO'ConnellPickering—UxbridgeAndrewRasiulisAndrewRasiulisAndrew-RasiulisInterventionMr. Andrew Rasiulis: (1710)[English]Speaking not on the U.S. thing but in general and to your question about misinformation, the antidote to misinformation is education. If people are not being educated—and there has to be self-education in this as well—there will always be people who get duped.If you watch the information spaces—the experts do—you can start to pick up pretty quickly what is generated misinformation versus the valid information, and you can make your own.... However, you have to be an educated person to actually watch the stuff, and you can see after a while what's fabrication. It has an artificiality to it and, of course, it's inconsistent over time if you watch for that.Education is really the antidote, and I think there's a universal acceptance by people that that's how you have to deal with it. There's been a lot of that in the Baltic states and in Finland. They have worked hard to do that by educating the population. There is no magic answer other than education.DisinformationForeign policyRussiaUkraineUnited States of AmericaWar774325777432587743259BrianJenkinsJenniferO'ConnellPickering—UxbridgeTenzinRabgyalTenzin-RabgyalInterventionMr. Tenzin Rabgyal (Abbot, Tashi Lhunpo Monastery): (1305)[English] [Witness spoke in Tibetan, interpreted as follows:]Tashi delek, everyone.As the abbot of Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, I would like to take this opportunity today to make some fervent appeals to the Canadian government on behalf of the followers of Tibetan Buddhism around the world, human rights, religious freedom and child rights advocates, as well as the millions of disciples of His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche—more well known as the Panchen Lama—across Tibet and the Himalayan region.Currently, we see the Chinese government undertaking ruthless and restrictive policies in Tibet. The situation is worsening day by day. We see human rights being trampled, religious freedom and the rights of the child being denied. Those Tibetans who disagree with the Chinese government are being arbitrarily detained, with many being disappeared. Today I'd like to explain the situation in Tibet and the context of the disappearance of an eminent spiritual leader, namely His Holiness the 11th Panchen Lama.In 1989, the 10th Panchen Lama died suddenly and mysteriously while in the town of Shigatse in Tibet. Subsequently, as per Tibetan Buddhist convention, His Holiness the Dalai Lama announced on May 14, 1995, his recognition of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima from Nagchu in Tibet as the unmistaken reincarnation. Sadly, three days after the announcement, on May 17, 1995, the Chinese authorities detained the less than six years old Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, his parents and entourage. They have not been seen since then, and 28 years have passed. To make matters worse, later in 1995, the Chinese government interfered in our religious process and forcefully appointed a child by the name of Gyaltsen Norbu as a fake 11th Panchen Lama. Since then, he has been used as a political tool by the Chinese government.His Holiness the 10th Panchen Lama worked tirelessly his entire life and even sacrificed his precious life to preserve Tibetan language, religion and culture across Tibet—including the 70,000 character report. His Holiness the 11th Panchen Lama is very crucial to continue the legacy of the 10th Panchen Lama and further realize his great works and visions. All efforts made regarding His Holiness the Panchen Lama for the past 28 years have resulted in no significant proof of his whereabouts; hence, we urge the Canadian government to take more concrete actions.(1310)Therefore, with great concern, we would like to make the following five appeals to the Canadian Parliament and administration.One, I urge the Canadian Parliament to pass a motion urging the Canadian government to instruct the ambassador in China to meet with the 11th Panchen Lama and ascertain his whereabouts and well-being. Two, I urge the Canadian government to honour the 11th Panchen Lama with an award recognizing him as a victim of enforced disappearance for 28 years and as someone who has been denied his human rights, religious freedom, the rights of a child and other fundamental rights of movement, residency and action.Three, in order to enable his early release and as a way to draw attention to his situation, I urge the Canadian Parliament to observe both the birthday and the day of the disappearance of the 11th Panchen Lama on April 25 and May 17 respectively. Four, I urge the Canadian government to intervene in the forced colonial boarding schools for Tibetan children so that we can ensure the continuity of Tibetan culture.Five, the aspirations of —ChinaForeign policyLanguage other than official languageOppressionPanchen LamaPolitical prisonersSchoolsTashi Lhunpo MonasteryTibetTibetan7727876ArnoldViersenPeace River—WestlockHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaTenzinRabgyalTenzin-RabgyalInterventionMr. Tenzin Rabgyal: (1315)[English][Witness spoke in Tibetan, interpreted as follows:]Five, the aspirations of the Tibetans in Tibet is for His Holiness the Dalai Lama to be able to return at the earliest. Therefore, I urge the Canadian government to consider taking concrete initiatives to support His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Central Tibetan Administration to enable the resolution of the Tibetan issue with the Chinese government through a mutually beneficial middle way approach.The Canadian people and government have been consistently supporting the Tibetan people, so I take this opportunity to express my gratitude. This five-point appeal I have made today is in one way also connected to the mental well-being of the several million believers and connected to the democratic rights of individuals.I have firm hope that the Canadian government will consider the reality of the Tibetan situation, particularly on the issue of His Holiness the Panchen Lama, and consider my appeals positively. Thank you.ChinaForeign policyLanguage other than official languageSchoolsTashi Lhunpo MonasteryTibetTibetan7727887ArnoldViersenPeace River—WestlockArnoldViersenPeace River—WestlockSherapTherchinSherap-TherchinInterventionMr. Sherap Therchin (Executive Director, Canada Tibet Committee): (1315)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members. I deeply appreciate this opportunity to speak with you on this important matter of Tibetan language and education.The Canada Tibet Committee is an independent, non-partisan association of Tibetans and non-Tibetans from across Canada. Founded in 1987, its mandate is to promote the human rights of Tibetans living under Chinese rule.As committee members will know, the right to education is protected in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Both of these treaties explicitly guarantee that minority groups must not be denied the use of their own language, either in the community or otherwise. Further, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights states that individuals “have the right of self-determination”, including “social and cultural development”.Here in Canada, the federal government supports efforts by indigenous peoples to reclaim and revitalize their linguistic heritage, in part by adopting the Indigenous Languages Act in 2019. In the province of Quebec, it has been more than 40 years that all children in the province have to be educated in the French language until the end of their secondary studies. It is also interesting to note that the Government of China has adopted its regional national autonomy law, which clearly states in article 37 that “The organs of self-government of national autonomous areas shall independently develop education for the nationalities” and “shall, whenever possible, use textbooks in their own languages and use their languages as the media of instruction.”Despite such guarantees, however, a suite of policies imposed across the whole of China by the central government under the pretext of poverty alleviation or ecological protection have reinforced the ongoing assault on the Tibetan language and cultural traditions. Such policies include various nomad relocation schemes, the school consolidation policy and the bilingual education policy. These policies have, in effect, reduced the ability of Tibetan children to access schooling in their own language, as witnesses explained in detail before this committee in the previous meeting.A few years ago, Global Affairs Canada funded a project to support efforts by the Tibetan exile community in India and Nepal to deliver quality education in the Tibetan language. Notwithstanding the many differences in the broader context, the project provided valuable lessons about challenges faced when promoting Tibetan language in the face of a different dominant language. For this reason, Canada is well placed to take the lead on this issue.Therefore, in conclusion, we wish to make the following recommendations for the committee's consideration. Number one, open the dialogue with the appropriate counterparts from the National People's Congress on the matter of minority languages and education in Tibet.Number two, invite visiting parliamentarians from China to indigenous communities and to Quebec in order to share Canadian experiences regarding the protection and promotion of minority languages.Number three, support academic research aimed at identifying the impacts that resettlement and education policies in Tibet have had or might have on the vibrancy of Tibetan language and culture.Number four, encourage the Canadian embassy in Beijing to develop Canada fund projects related to Tibetan language education, including support for Tibetan-language lending libraries or the training of Tibetan-language teachers.Finally, number five, advocate on behalf of Tibetan human rights defenders who uphold linguistic rights.Thank you.C-91, An Act respecting Indigenous languagesCanada Tibet CommitteeChinaCivil and human rightsCultural assimilationForeign policyInternational development and aidLanguage instructionMother tongueOppressionSchoolsTibet7727903772790477279067727907ArnoldViersenPeace River—WestlockArnoldViersenPeace River—WestlockTenzinDorjeeTenzin-DorjeeInterventionMr. Tenzin Dorjee (Senior Researcher and Strategist, Tibet Action Institute): (1320)[English] Thank you. I'd like to thank the distinguished members of the committee for this opportunity. Among all of the tools of colonial dispossession wielded by European settlers against indigenous populations in North America, residential schools stand out for the scope, scale and persistence of their impact. Under the guise of providing education, these boarding establishments removed indigenous children from their homes, erased their cultures and languages and left a lasting legacy of multi-generational trauma that haunts indigenous communities to this day. This 19th-century colonial practice is being quietly resurrected on the Tibetan plateau by the Chinese government. Two years ago, after hearing about children being forced into state-run boarding schools in parts of eastern Tibet, my colleagues at Tibet Action Institute began investigating the matter. After months of research, they arrived at the disturbing conclusion that approximately 800,000 children, which is 78% of all Tibetan students aged six to 18, are living in residential boarding schools. That's 800,000 children. This staggering statistic does not include the more than 100,000 Tibetan children aged four to six who are believed to be in boarding preschools. In these boarding institutions, children are put through a highly politicized curriculum designed to sever their ties to their religion and culture, strip them of their mother tongue and methodically replace their Tibetan identity with a Chinese one. The residential school system sits at the centre of China's new solution to the Tibetan problem. Whereas previous administrations under Hu Jintao, Jiang Zemin and Deng Xiaoping balanced political repression with a degree of ethnic accommodation towards Tibetans, Xi Jinping's China has opted for an all-out eliminationist approach. This new approach is grounded in the ultra-nationalist notion that the only route to political stability is cultural uniformity and ethnic homogeneity.In the past, Beijing believed that the best way to solve the nationalities problem was to afford non-Han minorities a range of special protections and cultural accommodations. However, following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Chinese public intellectuals like Ma Rong and Hu Angang argued that special treatment for minority communities somehow undermined Chinese nation building. They called for a highly interventionist form of party-directed cultural nationalism. What Beijing now seeks to eliminate is not just separatist ideology but the separate identity of Tibetans. Dissent never went unpunished under Beijing, but now even difference is criminalized.Among all the features of Tibetan identity, language is what most effectively unites Tibetans across the plateau. The Tibetan language forms the bedrock of one of the great civilizations of Asia, with a written history dating back over a millennium and an oral literature that goes back even further. It is also home to the largest body of canonical Buddhist literature in the world. Of all the markers of a distinct identity, language is the central pride of the Tibetan people.For Xi Jinping's China, this is precisely why the Tibetan language must be eradicated. What better tool for that task than the residential school system? In all schools across the plateau, Tibetan has been replaced by Mandarin Chinese as the medium of instruction. Beijing has deceptively labelled this new policy “bilingual education”, but there is nothing bilingual about the system. Tibetan has been demoted to second-language or third-language status in its own native homeland. This is literally a highway to mother-tongue erosion. To make it worse, China has shuttered scores of local and private schools, pre-emptively destroying all village-level alternatives to the consolidated boarding schools. Ironically, two months ago, when UN experts in Geneva grilled the Chinese delegation, Chinese officials defended the mandatory boarding policy by claiming that there were no schooling alternatives in rural Tibet. Guess what. They themselves had destroyed all the local alternatives that existed. At the same event, when asked about the use of Mandarin as the medium of instruction in Tibet, Chinese officials said that the Tibetan language doesn't have the right words for teaching math and science. This is a blatantly racist and fictitious argument. (1325) All languages, when they meet new subjects for the first time, face challenges that can be overcome. The Chinese language itself faced the same problems in the recent past, and it managed pretty well, borrowing thousands of terminologies from Japanese and Russian. Tibetan has by and large also solved some of these problems.Meanwhile, the boarding system is causing a major upheaval in the social, psychological, cultural and linguistic structures of Tibetan life. We are already seeing the early results of this colonial policy. Tibetan children below a certain age are fast becoming native Mandarin speakers, which means they can no longer converse meaningfully with their parents and cannot even communicate with their grandparents. In Tibet, as in many traditional societies, grandparents play a seminal role in shaping children's overall psychological development and orienting their cultural world view. If children inherit genes from their parents, it can be said they inherit culture from their grandparents. This colonial system is clearly designed to stem the transmission of culture from one generation to the next. Thankfully, the world is beginning to take action and take note. Two months ago, the UN sent a strong communication to Beijing on the issue. Yesterday, the German government officially called for an end to this system. My recommendation to the Canadian government is to publicly condemn this consolidated boarding institution and to call on the Chinese government to halt this system and allow the reopening of village-level local and private schools. Finally, I request that the Canadian government sanction Chinese leaders and officials responsible for this heinous policy, including the intellectual architects responsible for developing and implementing this system. Thank you.ChinaCultural assimilationCurriculumEconomic sanctionsForeign policyForeign public officialsLanguage instructionMother tongueOppressionSchoolsTibetTibet Action Institute7727925ArnoldViersenPeace River—WestlockArnoldViersenPeace River—Westlock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1355)[Translation]Thank you very much.Your Holiness Abbot Rinpoché, if Canada and the parliamentarians of the House of Commons support your five recommendations, do you believe it will set an example for the rest of the world and that other democratic countries might follow suit and support the five recommendations?ChinaForeign policySchoolsTibet7728017SherapTherchinTenzinRabgyalTenzinRabgyalTenzin-RabgyalInterventionMr. Tenzin Rabgyal: (1355)[English][Witness spoke in Tibetan, interpreted as follows:]Yes. Canada would be a leader should Parliament support the five appeals. We have big hopes for Canada leading that conversation for the millions of followers of His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche, who is, namely, the second-highest Buddhist leader. This action by the Canadian government will support raising awareness about His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche and help extremely. Not only will it help, but we have high hopes that Canada will take the lead on this.ChinaForeign policyLanguage other than official languageSchoolsTibetTibetan77280187728019AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanArnoldViersenPeace River—Westlock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1400)[English]Thank you.Mr. Therchin, how would you evaluate Canada's response to date? How do you feel that Canada is doing?I know that you brought forward many recommendations that we can review, but how do you feel, to date, that Canada has done?ChinaForeign policySchoolsTibet77280367728037TenzinDorjeeSherapTherchinSherapTherchinSherap-TherchinInterventionMr. Sherap Therchin: (1400)[English]I think the fact that we're having this meeting is a recognition of Canada's active interest on this issue. The fact that we recently had, on December 14, a unanimously passed motion supporting the resumption of Sino-Tibetan dialogue is a sign that Canada shows an increasing interest in resolving the human rights issues and in resolving the Sino-Tibetan conflict. I hope there will be more interest. I hope this is just a start.ChinaForeign policySchoolsTibet7728038HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaTenzinDorjeeTenzinDorjeeTenzin-DorjeeInterventionMr. Tenzin Dorjee: (1400)[English]I also feel that the response from the Canadian Parliament, so far, has been very encouraging to us. The fact is that we are holding this hearing and that the Tibetan people are following this event. We can assure you that people inside Tibet, who really have no voice because they are being crushed by the Chinese government, are following what the Canadian government, the Parliament, and other governments around the world are taking action on.I believe that the Canadian government could go much further than it is currently. In fact, it could take a much stronger stand, from the government side, to release a statement from the highest levels of government and to make strong calls to the Chinese government on closing down this institution, especially because of our own history here in North America. I think the colonial history of what happened in Canada places the Canadian government in, ironically, paradoxically, a very powerful position for taking action on this issue.ChinaForeign policySchoolsTibet77280397728040SherapTherchinHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.)): (1630)[English]I call this meeting to order. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to meeting number 59 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Today we will continue our study of the government's response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan. On behalf of all members of this committee, I welcome the Honourable Marilou McPhedran. Thank you for appearing before the committee. You will have five minutes for your opening remarks, and then we will go to our round of questioning.Please begin. AfghanistanForeign policy77221877722188772218977221907722191MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran (Senator, Manitoba, not affiliated): (1630)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.As an independent senator from Manitoba, I am privileged to reside in the territory covered by Treaty 1, the home of the Métis nation.I'd like to thank the committee for inviting me to testify today.In September 2022, The Globe and Mail published two articles containing allegations by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada officials that I sent a standard document in August 2021 to stranded Afghans, mostly women fleeing the Taliban. Those allegations are false.[English]IRCC allegations against me in The Globe and Mail and elsewhere are false. They are not true. On August 25, 2021, the facilitation template in question was sent to me by George Young, chief of staff to then minister of defence Harjit Sajjan. As members will remember, when Kabul fell, Canada had no diplomatic presence on the ground in Afghanistan, and Canadian special forces were empowered to do what was necessary to get people safely to the airport for evacuation.Mr. Young received this facilitation template from Global Affairs Canada, and he told me this in writing. As the committee was told on February 8, both Global Affairs and IRCC were issuing facilitation templates, yet IRCC alleged that the facilitation letter I received from Mr. Young was inauthentic. This was despite the fact that the facilitation template I received from him was the exact same facilitation template content that IRCC was sending to vulnerable Afghans.I will provide the committee with one of the Global Affairs letters from IRCC to compare with what I received. However, my office did request that the first facilitation template I received be changed so that it did not state that the bearer was a Canadian citizen, and Mr. Young quickly sent what was requested.My office sent this facilitation template to a rolling list of vulnerable Afghans—names we were receiving from trusted advocates in a number of countries. Names for the rolling list were sent frequently to George Young and Mr. Oz Jungic, a senior policy adviser to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Jungic confirmed receipt of the names to me on August 24, with an assurance that they would do everything they could to try to help get these people out.Mr. Young stated that he had put these names “into the system”. Mr. Jungic emailed to say that he had shared these names “with GAC officials and IRCC”. My office continued to update the Government of Canada on additional Afghans who needed safe passage to the airport in Kabul, most of them women.As the committee was told on February 8, IRCC testified that the facilitation letters were not meant to facilitate the boarding of a flight at the airport or confirmation of a visa. When George Young sent me the facilitation templates on August 25, he wrote, with the first one,“I have received this from a colleague at GAC...try it. George.” I understood that this meant I was authorized to use the template, and I was assured that the names we sent were being put into the system.Madam Chair, these facilitation letters came from the chief of staff to the defence minister. IRCC was sending facilitation letters with the same content, also to help vulnerable Afghans escape the Taliban. I trusted then, and I do now, the facilitation templates that Mr. Young provided. I trust them to be authentic, and they helped to save many lives, mostly women.Ultimately I made the decision to speak publicly to my colleagues in the Senate, when earlier this year I learned that an affidavit had been signed by an official at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada continuing to allege that I was the source of the so-called inauthentic Global Affairs facilitation template. I then decided to provide my own affidavit in support of the Afghans challenging the IRCC, and I can provide this to you if you wish.(1635)I appreciate this opportunity to correct the record.Thank you.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees772219277221937722194772219577221967722197772219877221997722200772220177222027722203772220477222057722206SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): (1635)[English]I would like to start by acknowledging that I think everyone in this room wishes the government had done more. There are still Afghans with connections to Canada who have not been evacuated and who should be.Senator McPhedran, who in Global Affairs sent the visa facilitation letter to Mr. Young?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77222107722211SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1635)[English] I don't know.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722212MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1635)[English]You don't know.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722213MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1635)[English]I do know that the email Mr. Young sent had the first template attached, and he copied Mr. Jungic from Global Affairs.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722214MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1635)[English]Was Mr. Young aware of all the names you were adding to these facilitation letters?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722215MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1635)[English]I can't answer that. He could answer that, but I understand you decided not to invite him. What happened is—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722216MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1635)[English]Did you tell him which names you were filling into the facilitation letters?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722217MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1635)[English]It was a rolling list. We had numerous emails, copies of which I'm happy to provide. We added names. We gave the names and also tried to make corrections as the situation changed.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722218MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1635)[English]There was a rolling list, but did he know you were adding names to facilitation letters and then sending them out?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722219MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1635)[English]Yes.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722220MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1635)[English]Was Minister Sajjan aware you were sending out these facilitation letters?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722221MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1635)[English]Yes. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722222MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]He was. Do you have correspondence to that effect?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722223MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]I do, in that he was copied on the correspondence back and forth about what we were doing.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722224MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]He explicitly knew you were filling in names on visa facilitation letters.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722225MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]I can't speak to what Mr. Sajjan knew in his mind, but I can tell you that he was copied on the communications. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722226MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Can you table that with the committee?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722227MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]Yes, I can.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722228MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Thank you.Were you ever, at any point, told to stop issuing these facilitation letters by anyone in any government department?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77222297722230MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]No, never.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722231MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Did you ever ask anyone in Global Affairs whether you had express authorization to write names on these facilitation letters?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722232MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]I did not, because the nature of our communication made what we were doing clear.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722233MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]How?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722234MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran:(1640)[English]We were talking about it. In one communication I can give you as an example, my colleague Laura Robinson said, “Is someone in government going to add these names? If not, we'll go ahead and do that.” Nobody answered, so we went ahead and did that. We made it very clear, and the communications show this was an ongoing process until the airport was bombed.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722235MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Did you give the altered visa facilitation letter to any other third party to distribute?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722236MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]What do you mean by “altered”?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722237MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]The original facilitation letter that came in had “Canadian citizens only” written on it. Is that right? Then Ms. Robinson wrote to Mr. Young and said—Hon. Marilou McPhedran: That was at my request.Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner: —at your request that this doesn't work. Then a template came back that was altered. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees772223877222397722240MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]That's correct.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722241MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Did Mr. Young alter that template?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722242MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]I don't know. I just know he sent it.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722243MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]You don't know whether Mr. Young or anyone at Global Affairs altered the template. Did you, anyone in your staff or Ms. Robinson send the altered template to any other third party for the purpose of distributing it?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722244MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]Yes, we were working with a network of trusted advocates. It was altered in that “Canadian citizen” was removed. Nothing else was changed.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722245MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Did you have permission from Global Affairs to send the altered facilitation letter to any third party for the use of distribution? Did you have express permission to do that?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722246MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]I'm happy to table the email communications. We made a request, because women were getting turned away.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722247MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Thank you. I would love to see that communication.Like many parliamentarians, I had dire cases in my office of people pleading for evacuation. On August 27, my office was corresponding with the government to get a constituent's mother—a member of the Hazara ethnic group—and a doctor who was educating women in how to resist virginity checkups out of the country. I was not offered visa facilitation letters but you were. Why do you think that is?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77222487722249MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]I don't know, other than to say that I had been part of an email group that started around August 20. George Young was part of that communication. It was initiated by then minister Monsef.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722250MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]In an email included in your affidavit, on September 21, 2021, at 1:03 p.m., you wrote to Mike Jones, chief of staff to then immigration minister and now public safety minister Marco Mendicino, and said, “While we were certainly prepared to work as closely as possible in the event of a Conservative government, I think I can honestly say that we are more hopeful to see the same PM this morning and Minister Mendicino and the team still at the helm of IRCC”.Do you think you were given the ability to issue visa facilitation letters and the ability to choose who came to Canada while others weren't because you had voiced support for the Liberal government to a Liberal minister's political chief of staff during a federal election?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77222517722252MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]No, I don't think that was the case.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722253MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Then why do you think you were you given authorization or claimed to be given authorization and no one else was?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722254MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]I think because of this communication that was happening in the small group, which included copying the ministers regularly.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722255MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Would you say that your political access to the Liberal government allowed you to select people to come to Canada?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722256MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]No. I would say that my decades of work as a human rights activist that led to Afghan women leaders asking me to help—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722257MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]I've done a decade of work in casework as well, as have many of my other colleagues around the table. We don't think it's equitable or right for parliamentarians to pick and choose who gets to come to Canada in an emergency situation like this. Why did you?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722258MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]First of all, I think we need to correct the facts: I wasn't choosing who gets to come to Canada. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722259MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1640)[English]Who was?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722260MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1640)[English]That's a completely different process that happened. My focus was on evacuation.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722261MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88515FayçalEl-KhouryFayçal-El-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ElKhouryFayçal_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Fayçal El-Khoury (Laval—Les Îles, Lib.): (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Welcome, Senator.I read a number of articles in which you stated that you were confident you were authorized to send the facilitation letters you sent. I'd like to discuss that briefly and ask you for more specific details about this belief. I will rely on some of the facts that you have described. First, I should make it clear that I don't know whether the statements are true or false, but I will rely on them in asking my questions to you today.In some of the media articles, you state that you were authorized to send facilitation letters and that you did so in good faith. You say that you were authorized to do so by a staff member who provided you with a letter template. Again, I understand that you have a strong desire to help people. I believe that many, if not all, of us around this table have that great desire too, because it's one of common factors that drives people to get involved in public life. However, I firmly believe that fairness and justice must underlie all decisions we make in the course of our work. To me, that means respecting processes and procedures, even if we disagree on what they are.Let's assume—this is an assumption—that a staff member provided you with the template. As a senator and jurist, did you honestly think, ma'am, that receiving a government document template via email was sufficient to authorize you to officially issue the documents to someone else?I await your explanation.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees772226577222667722267772226877222697722270SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1645)[English]Thank you very much for your question.[Translation]I'm sorry, but I will answer in English, if that's okay.[English]First of all, the message I received from the chief of staff—not just a staff person but the chief of staff—for the Minister of Defence for Canada said, “I have received this from a colleague at GAC...try it.”AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees772227177222727722273FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesFayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88515FayçalEl-KhouryFayçal-El-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ElKhouryFayçal_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Fayçal El-Khoury: (1645)[English]Is there no name for the colleague?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722274MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1645)[English]No. It said, “a colleague from GAC...try it”. Then there's a period and then “George”. Attached to that was the first template, which included the words “Canadian citizen”. I asked Laura to write back to say that we were helping Afghans and to ask that we please be given a document we could use for Afghans. Very promptly we received a second template with “Canadian citizen” removed. All of the other wording was exactly the same. All of the insignia—the Global Affairs stamp, etc.—was exactly the same.In an extreme humanitarian crisis, in a huge emergency, is not when bureaucratic processes should triumph. Frankly, the people from the government who were in the midst of that crisis and with whom I was communicating were far more experienced than I was. After many emails and examples we gave saying that these women were being turned away by our own Canadian soldiers—and our raising this went on for days and nights, with us saying, “They say there's a form. What's the form? What is it that these women need?”—finally, around noon on August 25, that was the email we received.I was not the only one to receive that email. It was sent to Minister Monsef and her staffer. It was sent to me and the colleague I was working with. It came from George Young, and it was copied to Mr. Jungic at Global Affairs.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees772227577222767722277FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesFayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88515FayçalEl-KhouryFayçal-El-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ElKhouryFayçal_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Fayçal El-Khoury: (1645)[Translation]In another article, you state that in the alleged emails, the staff member told you that they had received the Global Affairs Canada, or GAC, template, and suggested that you try it. A staff member told you that they had received the template from GAC and suggested that you try it in response to a request from you. It was this specific conversation that you mistook for delegation of authority from the Minister of Foreign Affairs or the Minister of Immigration, and you believed that this statement authorized you to distribute facilitation letters on behalf of Ministers of the Crown.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722278MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1650)[English]Is that a yes or no, sir, that you want? The answer is yes, that is what I believed and that is what I acted on. It was because all of us were working together to try to save lives.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722279FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesFayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104773MarioSimardMario-SimardJonquièreBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SimardMario_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Mario Simard (Jonquière, BQ): (1650)[Translation]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Senator, I'd like to come back to the principle. What I understand is that your goal was to save Afghan women. That was the ultimate goal. It's often said that the end justifies the means. Quite frankly, the fact that you sent facilitation letters that were found to be inauthentic doesn't bother me much. What bothers me is government action. I read somewhere that you provided 640 letters, I believe.How is it that a senator was contacting Afghan women who may have wanted to come to Canada? I'm having a hard time understanding that.How is it that the government is not the one primarily responsible for this? How come you were the one taking the lead on what was being done in Afghanistan?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722284772228577222867722287SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1650)[English] There's a practical reality here that we need to keep in mind, and that is that non-governmental organizations and advocates around the world were doing a lot of the heavy lifting to try to save lives. Governments were not able to. They just weren't able to respond to the massive need.Many of us—certainly in the network of trusted advocates that I was part of—have been working with Afghan women, have been to Afghanistan and have worked with the organizations for 20-plus years. When the request comes in from someone you know and when you are working with others you know who are in direct contact with these Afghans at high risk and they ask if there's something we can do to help, I'm the kind of person.... As I said to my colleagues in the Senate, sir, I came into the Senate as a feminist activist and a human rights lawyer, and that's who I still am. That's why I was responding, and that's why I was working with a trusted network of non-governmental advocates in direct contact with those who were at such extreme risk.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77222887722289MarioSimardJonquièreMarioSimardJonquière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104773MarioSimardMario-SimardJonquièreBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SimardMario_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Mario Simard: (1650)[Translation]Thank you.I'm going to draw a parallel with the work we have to do as MPs in our constituencies. I'm the one who informs the government of the interests of the people in my riding, but to get results, I need the government. I can't believe that the government was not made aware of what you were doing. If you want results, you need someone in the government to know what you're doing and the contacts you are making.I reiterate what I said in response to the first question: What bothers me isn't so much the way you did it, although that may be debatable, it's the lack of government leadership in this crisis.You tell me that trusted networks are formed, and I understand all of that, but while you were taking action, what was the government doing? What do you think the ministers responsible for this were doing at that time? AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722290772229177222927722293MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1655)[English]I think we need to recall that on August 15, 2021, when Kabul fell to the Taliban, Prime Minister Trudeau called an election. I think there's some relevance here to some of what went on—some of what happened and some of what didn't happen. I'm a very pragmatic person, sir, and work with the tools that are available, and there was no time. It was announced officially that Canada would be gone by August 31, but we were told unofficially that Canada would be gone by August 27. Indeed, I certainly didn't know that HKIA, the airport at Kabul, was going to be bombed on August 26, thus shutting down the entire air bridge.What I did know in those days—and they were only days—was that we were working to get mostly women and their families out, and we had no time. We had to use the resources and the relationships that were available. That's what I tried to do.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees772229477222957722296MarioSimardJonquièreMarioSimardJonquière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104773MarioSimardMario-SimardJonquièreBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SimardMario_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Mario Simard: (1655)[Translation]You're explaining a bit of the background and that's great. However, since I don't have a lot of time left, I'd just like to ask you one more question.As you experienced this from the inside, so to speak, can you tell us what might be done differently by the government in a similar crisis in the future?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77222977722298MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1655)[English]I think the work that has already been done by the Special Committee on Afghanistan, chaired by Michael Chong.... The recommendations are excellent. I think the next step has to be—and I hope it will be for this committee, and I would be very happy to come back to be part of that process—to focus more on the implementation of those recommendations. There's a lot of learning in there.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722299MarioSimardJonquièreMarioSimardJonquière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): (1655)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you, Senator, for being here today.I just want to get some facts on the record. Could you tell the committee how many facilitation letters were sent out from your office?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas77223047722305SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1655)[English]I need to clarify—when you say my office—the process that happened. The template we were given by George Young was shared with a number of trusted advocates in different countries who then facilitated, as best they could, people hopefully being accepted by soldiers into the airport.You asked me for a specific number, but I wasn't keeping track of the numbers. It was about getting as many people, as many women, as possible out.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas77223067722307JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1655)[English]I'm sorry. I understand that the letter was shared with organizations and trusted advocates so they could distribute letters, but did you not keep track of how many facilitation letters came out of your office?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas7722308MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1655)[English]I did not keep close track, no. It was about giving the template to trusted advocates and helping to get the names to create the letters that could be used.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722309JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1655)[English]Let me clarify, then. I'm understanding that your office did not send out any facilitation letters to individuals, but rather sent out these facilitation letters to organizations for distribution.AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas7722310MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1655)[English]No, that's not correct. It's not an either-or situation, Ms. Kwan. I will give you a specific example of what I mean.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722311JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1655)[English]I'm sorry. Can I just get clarity? Is it the case that your office both sent out letters and shared those letters with trusted organizations?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas7722312MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1655)[English]They were advocates and organizations.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722313JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1655)[English]Okay. They were advocates and organizations.Do you have a list of the advocates and organizations that received these facilitation letters from you that you can share with the committee?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas77223147722315MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1655)[English]Yes. It's a small list. I can tell you right now.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722316JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1655)[English]I think we will ask you to submit that to the committee, because there might be groups involved that will be put in jeopardy. I don't want to do that.What is your understanding of these facilitation letters? What were they supposed to do, from your understanding?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas77223177722318MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1655)[English]They were supposed to help people get to the airport and, when they got to the airport, to then get access, through the soldiers guarding the airport, and be processed, hopefully, for evacuation. That's what the letter says.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722319JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1655)[English]It was to get them through to the checkpoint and then, hopefully, onto a plane for evacuation.AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas7722320MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]There's some processing that must have gone on for getting through the line.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722321JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]I assume so, yes. Ultimately, your understanding is that it would get them out of Afghanistan to safety.AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas7722322MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]It's evacuation.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722323JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]Okay, got it.Was this exchange with George Young that was copied to GAC—I think you said Mr. Jungic—done through your parliamentary email, or was it done through your private email?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas77223247722325MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]It was done through my parliamentary email.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722326JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]With regard to Mr. Jungic, who was engaged by GAC and was copied on this letter, do you know what his position was at the time?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas7722327MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]He sent an email to me introducing himself on August 24, and he said he was a policy adviser for Minister Garneau.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722328JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]Thank you.With respect to the period in which this was done, do you know if the people you assisted were evacuated under Operation Safe Haven?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas77223297722330MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]I do not.They were evacuated in a number of ways. In truth, they were evacuated by a number of countries. We had situations where they got in with our assistance but the Australians helped them, or they ended up in the U.K.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas77223317722332JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English] These were individuals who were seeking safety through the humanitarian stream and not through the stream where they served Canada. Do I understand that correctly, or is it both?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas7722333MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]It's both.In terms of serving Canada, for the most part, these are women. These are women working in Canadian-funded non-governmental organizations, and some young activists, male and female, working in some of those organizations with funding from Canada.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas77223347722335JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]As to the people who received this letter, I read in the media that many of them are still stuck and unable, ultimately, to get to Canada for safety. What is their understanding of what that letter meant? Do you know?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas7722336MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]I can't speak to their understanding. I can certainly note for you that there is an application for a judicial review of IRCC and the Government of Canada by five Afghans at extreme risk, whose lawyers are arguing that the letter—AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722337JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]Got it. Yes, I am aware.In your testimony, you indicated that the former defence minister, Minister Sajjan, was copied on the correspondence. Can you explain clearly what he was copied on and what he was advised on?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas77223387722339MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]I could table it. It's a lot of emails. I have copies.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visas7722340JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]I think it would be very helpful to table it.Since you received this authorization and believe you had authorization to act accordingly, who within government knew, who within government ministries knew and which ministers, more to the point? I don't believe that chiefs of staff act on their own without the authorization of their political master.If you have correspondence to indicate that ministers were aware and knew this was all going on at the same time, that would be a pertinent piece of documentation we need to have—AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visas772234177223427722343MarilouMcPhedranHon.SalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1700)[English]Thank you, Chair.Senator McPhedran, earlier in your testimony, in answer to a question from me and somewhat to Ms. Kwan, you stated that the letters weren't meant to allow people access to Canada. Is that your understanding?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77223477722348SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]Yes. They were to get them to the airport and hopefully get them out.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722349MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1700)[English]Okay.A Globe and Mail article yesterday stated, “More than 150 Afghans [are] stranded in Albania after receiving” this letter. The article says that, according to documents filed in a court case, “the lawyers say Ms. Robinson”, your consultant, “confirmed in a September, 2021 written exchange with someone whose name is redacted that the documents would allow the Afghans entry to Canada. ‘They will definitely be allowed to enter Canada with this letter’, Ms. Robinson wrote”.How do you square that circle?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees772235077223517722352MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]I think Ms. Robinson has to square that circle. You may want to invite her to come and speak with you.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722353MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1700)[English]Do you believe you delegated the authority to Ms. Robinson to make these types of claims?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722354MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1700)[English]I believe I asked Ms. Robinson to work with me as a volunteer and that the delegation you're talking about.... I was not overseeing every word Ms. Robinson wrote.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722355MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Did you personally see every name affixed to the altered facilitation letter before it was sent out?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722356MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]By “altered” do you mean the second template I received?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722357MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]The second, yes.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722358MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]No, I did not. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722359MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Okay.How many “trusted” advocate groups in other countries did you send the second template to?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77223607722361MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]It was not that many. We were working with the former captain of the Afghan national soccer team, Khalida Popal, who was the person who initially asked me. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722362MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]Thank you.We were working with the chief human rights officer for FIFA. We were also working with a former Canadian Olympian, who is now a lawyer in Australia, and with a network in the United States. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77223667722367MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Okay.Did anyone in Global Affairs, IRCC or the Department of Defence authorize you to send the second template to those groups for further distribution?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77223687722369MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]Authorization in writing.... I've told you what I received in writing. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722370MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Just give me a yes or no on the record here. Did they...?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722371MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]I took it to be authorization, yes. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722372MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Okay.Did you ever seek further clarification, outside of the copying on the email? Did you expressly ask whether you could further distribute the second template letter to these organizations?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77223737722374MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]The agreement was acted upon and was evidenced in many of our communications. It was very clear that this is what was happening.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722375MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Are there any other ministers or ministers' office staff whom you feel directly knew about what was happening in your office?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722376MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]Absolutely. We were copying ministers regularly. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722377MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Who?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722378MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]It was not on every single email. It depended on the topics, but it was Minister Sajjan, Minister Monsef, Minister Mendicino and Minister Garneau.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722379MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]So they all would have had direct knowledge that this was happening.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722380MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]Yes, as a result of being included in the email communications.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722381MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]How about Olga Radchenko?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722382MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]Yes, definitely.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722383MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Okay.Do you consider that Ms. Radchenko gave you authorization to proceed this way?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77223847722385MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]I wasn't dealing with Olga Radchenko, who was the director of policy at the time and then became chief of staff to Minister Fraser.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722386MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]What about Mike Jones?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722387MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]Yes, we had communications with Mike Jones.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722388MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Did any of them ever tell you to stop doing this?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722389MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]Absolutely no one did.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722390MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]On August 25, 2021, at 9:49 p.m., your office, on your behalf, sent the second template—an altered visa facilitation letter—to a family member of one of my constituents. The email that accompanied it stated there was “no guarantee” that the document would work. It also told my constituent's family, “Please do not discuss”. Why were these instructions included in the email you sent?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77223917722392MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]I'm glad you raised that.I understand that your constituent has found safety and will be going or has gone already.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77223937722394MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Just for the record, though, after coming to danger and thinking they had a passage to Canada, and after my office got the runaround for a year thinking this was an official government document, which put them out of contention for the government's official programs.... This put them in a crush of humanity going to the airport, thinking they had a plane ticket to Canada. However, please continue. Why was that in there? AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77223957722396MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]I can't speak to how they interpreted it. I can tell you, though, that there was no safe way out of Afghanistan in those days.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722397MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1705)[English]Thank you.I'll just close with this: If you had to do this all over again, would you do it the same way?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77223987722399MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]I would try. I did everything I could do that I thought was possible at the time. Under those circumstances, I stand by the choices I made. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722400MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali (Brampton Centre, Lib.): (1705)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair.Through you, Madam Chair, Senator, I'm grateful for your joining us here today.I would assume you are aware that there are very formal instruments that ministers' offices and departments use when they wish to delegate executive authority, statues and regulations and the instruments.... It's never an email from staff with templates attached.Have you, in any other Government of Canada operation or line of business, seen an authority delegated in the way that you suggest it was in this instance, that is to say, via an email exchange?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722404772240577224067722407SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1705)[English]Thank you for the question, Mr. Ali.I have never worked in a situation like the extreme humanitarian crisis that was happening as a result of the Taliban retaking Afghanistan. I considered it a unique situation, and a lot of the bureaucratic rules that one might apply just weren't realistic at that time. That's my estimation of it.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77224087722409ShafqatAliBrampton CentreShafqatAliBrampton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali: (1710)[English]Senator, I can see that all of the work you do is motivated by a desire to help others. I can assure you that it is important to me and to this committee to understand precisely what transpired in this situation and not to blame anyone.I want to focus a little bit on the differences between a visa and a facilitation letter and your understanding of these two documents.I'm guessing that you are aware that a visa is to come to Canada. A temporary resident visa is a document that foreign nationals travelling to Canada from countries that are not visa exempt must obtain through an application prior to travelling here. In some cases, a visa counterfoil is put in the individual's passport prior to travel and sometimes upon arrival at the Canadian border. You understand that a facilitation letter is an exceptional document that was created and issued in order to help visa holders travel to and through the Hamid Karzai Airport in Kabul. Is that correct? AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722410772241177224127722413MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1710)[English]No, sir.I'm sorry, but my experience of what was actually happening, as opposed to the theory of maybe what should happen, was that many of the people being given the letters based on the template from Global Affairs, whether they were getting it from IRCC or Global Affairs or National Defence or through my office, were not holders of visas.If you look at the letter, you see that the content of the letter has statements that, for the most part, were not true for most of the Afghans who were trying to escape. It wasn't the content of the letter so much that was the purpose of the letter. The letter was to assure the soldiers that they could let someone through to be processed, and those processes, in order to protect our country, had to happen after people made it safely into the airport compound.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees772241477224157722416ShafqatAliBrampton CentreShafqatAliBrampton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali: (1710)[English]Senator, I want to better understand whether you're aware of the differences between a visa and a facilitation letter. You issued inauthentic facilitation letters, but it seems that you explained to the people you were sending them to that they were actually visas, not just letters.Can you speak a little bit about what exactly you told the people you were sending the letters to?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77224177722418MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1710)[English]Sir, you can't hold me responsible for the contents of letters that were prepared by the Government of Canada.The content was the content, and it came, in my case.... I was assured that it came from Global Affairs. It had Global Affairs' insignia. It has exactly the same wording on the template that I received from George Young as, I can table, was sent by IRCC to another Afghan who is now here in Ottawa.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77224197722420ShafqatAliBrampton CentreShafqatAliBrampton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110339ShafqatAliShafqat-AliBrampton CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AliShafqat_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Shafqat Ali: (1710)[English]My understanding is that the actual facilitation letters that were legitimately issued by Global Affairs and IRCC came with a context from the issuing department, which included an explanation that they were only for the transitioning through checkpoints. They were—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722421MarilouMcPhedranHon.SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1710)[English]May I just say that we have a different understanding, sir.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722423SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104773MarioSimardMario-SimardJonquièreBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SimardMario_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Mario Simard: (1710)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Senator, earlier you said that you are pragmatic and you were trying to get results. That prompts me to ask you the following question, and feel free to answer it.Do you feel that the government was dragging its feet on the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyGovernment accountabilityPassports and visasRefugees772242777224287722429SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1715)[English]Overall, I think governments of democracies failed a great deal of the time in trying to respond to this crisis. I think leaders in civil society picked up a lot that governments dropped and were not able to do at all or perhaps do well.My short answer is that I wouldn't necessarily use the term “laggard”, but I would say, “unable in many cases to respond adequately to the crisis”. Again, I refer to the excellent report from the Special Committee on Afghanistan. Many of these issues are very well identified—and the changes that are needed.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyGovernment accountabilityMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77224307722431MarioSimardJonquièreMarioSimardJonquière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104773MarioSimardMario-SimardJonquièreBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SimardMario_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Mario Simard: (1715)[Translation]Thank you.I don't want to put words in your mouth or heap criticism on the government, but let's just say you were more effective than the government.If I'm in government and I'm aware of what you're doing—earlier, you talked about trusted groups with whom you had relationships—it seems to me that the first thing I would think to do would be to reach out to you and connect with these trusted groups. That's the first thing I would do because I'd want to be kept in the loop and want to know the process and how these things work. I can't believe that no one in the government reached out to you to find out who these trusted groups were.Has anyone reached out to you?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyGovernment accountabilityPassports and visasRefugees7722432772243377224347722435MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1715)[English]Yes. There were numerous conversations and numerous communications, and in particular with Olga Radchenko, the director of policy at IRCC, and in particular around mid-September, when many of the women, some of whom are still languishing in Albania, had been airlifted by FIFA, and the facilitation letters were part of what made it possible for that airlift to happen of those hundreds of women athletes. The understanding was not that they had visas—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyGovernment accountabilityMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722436MarioSimardJonquièreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1715)[English]Thank you.Senator, you mentioned earlier in your testimony that former minister Maryam Monsef's staff and another colleague were aware of these facilitation letters. Can you advise us who this other colleague is?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77224407722441SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1715)[English]It's Laura Robinson.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722442JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1715)[English]Got it. Okay. Thank you. I thought so, but I wanted to be sure.Now, given the current situation, there are many Afghans who have been left behind, including the ones you've been trying to assist. There are those who need a humanitarian stream, and then there are those who served Canada. In fact, people who served Canada through the military, through NATO and through various other activities to help Canada complete its mission did not even get their applications processed.The government came in with a limit of 40,000, an arbitrary number that came from I don't know where. Do you think the government should be lifting that arbitrary limit of 40,000?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees772244377224447722445MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1715)[English]Absolutely. This is essentially a promise. The minister's mandate letter says “at least 40,000”. It does not say, “Stop at 40,000.”You've made some very powerful points on this, and I agree with you completely.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77224467722447JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1715)[English]Okay.Some of these applications came into the system in an email in which the government told people to indicate their intention to try to get to safety through...back in August, in the summer. By the way, I'm still getting emails and family members contacting me who have not even gotten an acknowledgement or a response from the government. What do you think the government should be doing about bringing individuals to safety, particularly those who are in crisis and being persecuted by the Taliban, those who served Canada and their family members?AfghanistanForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77224487722449MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]First of all, I think the recommendations made by the Special Committee on Afghanistan identify a number of the actual practical steps that need to be implemented, but in addition to that, I have to say that when Mursal Nabizada was murdered on January 15, I actually thought that we were going to see an acceleration. I thought we were going to see at least women parliamentarians trapped in Afghanistan made a priority, and that has not happened. I and others have been working—for example, with the Inter-Parliamentary Union—with specific lists of women parliamentarians. It hasn't happened.AfghanistanForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722450JennyKwanVancouver EastSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]The template letter my constituent received from your office—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722454SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]It was from me, actually. I wrote it myself. I mean that I wrote the email.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722455MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]Thank you. The letter states that the Canadian government validates that the names identified below have been “granted a VISA to enter Canada”.I've been on this committee for seven years. At the time, I was the vice-chair and I was the critic. This fooled me into thinking that they could get into Canada. Are you now claiming that you never thought this would actually grant them entry into Canada?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722456772245777224587722459MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I'm not responsible for the wording that Global Affairs put into that letter. Let me be very clear. I am not responsible for the content of that. The letter—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77224607722461MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]Let me finish, please.The letter was provided to facilitate—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77224637722464MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]—getting into HKIA.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722466MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]In the original facilitation letter, my understanding from Global Affairs Canada is that those were only issued to Canadian citizens. Why would it say that they need a visa to enter Canada if they're Canadian citizens. Was it altered? Was the word “visa” altered in the second template? AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77224677722468MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]The only change, as I stated previously, was to remove “Canadian citizens”.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722469MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]Thank you.In previous testimony today, you stated that you did not know all of the names that were being entered on those forms. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77224707722471MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I did not at the time.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722472MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]You also said it was for the purpose of being presented to Canadian soldiers at the airport. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722473MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]That was my understanding.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722474MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]How did you have any assurance that those weren't people who posed a threat to the lives of Canadian soldiers?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722475MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]Women, athletes, many of them—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722476MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]Did you know it was women?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722477MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]Yes, of course. I was working with a feminist network.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722478MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]You personally saw every name on all of those letters.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722479MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I did not, but—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722480MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]You see what I'm saying.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722481MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]—I personally trusted the advocates who chose those women. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722482MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]You trusted them, but you had no assurance that those persons—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722483MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I didn't need any assurance. I trusted the advocates. They knew them.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722484MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]Did they validate identity? Did you validate identity?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722485MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]They knew them. They didn't need to validate identity.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722486MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]On the concept of authentic and inauthentic letters, you have a background in constitutional law. Is that correct? AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722487MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I do.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722488MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]As a parliamentarian, I understand that I am not the executive branch of government, so I don't have the authority to authorize certain things like issuing letters like this, because there's due process that needs to go on. You are claiming, if I understand correctly, that you believe the letters are authentic because somebody emailed you a template.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722489MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]It was not “somebody”. It was the chief of staff to the Minister of National Defence.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722490MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]You do understand that for them to be authentic they have to be issued by the government. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722491MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I do understand that. They were issued by Global Affairs.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722492MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]The fact that you issued them and the government did not.... Are you a member of the government?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722493MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I conveyed them. I received them from the chief of staff to the Minister of National Defence, and I conveyed them to trusted advocates who helped women get out and lives were saved.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722494MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]However, the government never knew because you didn't know. The government never knew. Is that right? Did the government know whose names were going on there?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722495MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]We had a rolling list of names and, as much as we could, we put those.... They wrote back and said they were in the system.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722496MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]In terms of its being authentic, you're not a member of the government. Is that correct?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722497MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]That's correct.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722498MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]How is it possible that you could authorize authentic letters if you're not a member of the government with duly authorized authority to...?All I'm trying to say, Senator, is that none of us would ever do this, regardless of political stripe, because we understand the division of powers and because of the danger it can pose to soldiers. There are equity issues. I'll close with this—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees772249977225007722501MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]Are these women a danger to soldiers? Do you want to help me understand that?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722502MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]How do you know who was on...? You just said you didn't even know who was on the letters.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722503MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]No, I didn't say that. I said the trusted advocates I was working with knew these women.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722504MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]How were the people you selected more deserving than other people on the government list? How did you determine that?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722505MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I didn't determine that. I was doing what I could with the resources I had.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722506MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]Earlier, you also said that you believed that the election had an impact on this. Do you believe that the Prime Minister's calling of the federal election during that time precipitated the need for you to undertake those activities?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722507MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1720)[English]I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that there were a number of impacts.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722508MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1720)[English]Thank you.My colleague, my caseworker from Ottawa, Mackenzie Schultz is in Ottawa today. She spent a year lobbying the government, trying to get information and going through all the hoops to try to get my family out. Do you think that what you did was better than what she did? Was that more effective? AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77225097722510MarilouMcPhedranHon.SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1725)[English] I commend you for your work as a parliamentarian on this file.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722512SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga (London West, Lib.): (1725)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Through the chair, I would first like to thank you, Senator, for taking the time to be here today and for answering these very hard questions. I know that you're going to be here for the full two hours, and I really do appreciate your extending your time to answer these really important questions from this committee.Senator, I'm wondering more broadly if you can opine on whether you think the way in which you operated in this situation set any sort of precedent. There are extreme and unfortunate situations and crises unfolding across the world right now, and Canada responds to several of these. While seldom do we respond to any situation on the scale and magnitude of the fall of Kabul, there are other situations—for example, Uganda right now.Do you think it would be appropriate for me as a member of Parliament to be working with partners in Uganda to issue letters of my own volition and then tell the government that they need to honour the promises I made? I just don't want people all around the world to think that a Canadian parliamentarian has made a promise to them while they were vulnerable and in a dire situation.Can you comment on that?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77225167722517772251877225197722520SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1725)[English]The letters that were conveyed via my office came from Global Affairs Canada. If any promises were made, those promises were made by the Government of Canada. I had nothing to do with the wording of that letter. The fact that the chief of staff for the Minister of National Defence sent me the template and then sent me a second template that was more appropriate for Afghans to use is, for me, a more than adequate demonstration that, in a massive humanitarian crisis, people like George Young in the government were doing everything they possibly could to try to get people out. Everyone knew that people were going to be left behind, but the people I was working with were working literally night and day to do everything they could to get out as many as they could.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77225217722522ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1725)[English]I would like to pick up on something you mentioned earlier regarding the awareness that political staff and ministers might have had about sending these letters. I'm not making a judgment on whether your actions were right or wrong, but I would like us to be very clear not to accidentally place blame on staff members who were doing their jobs. I'm sure you would agree with me.If you were legally authorized to do this, it would make sense to me that there would be a very long list of staff and ministers who would have been aware of it, but we are instead dealing with a potentially very short list. In regard to this list—Mrs. Radchenko, Mr. Jones, Mr. Jungic and the ministers you previously mentioned—are you telling the committee that you emailed directly to their personal accounts to inform them that you were sending facilitation letters on your own?Hon. Marilou McPhedran: You know, I—Ms. Arielle Kayabaga: I just want to understand the nature of the correspondence you sent to these staff and ministers—if you're suggesting now that this indicates their knowledge of your activity on their part, if you communicated directly with them on your activity and if you informed them.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722523772252477225257722526MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1725)[English]Yes. The short answer is yes. They were in a number of these communications. I'm more than happy to table them. I must apologize, because they're only in English. All of these communications occurred in English. If you would like to see them today, I would be more than happy to table them.It's very clear that there are communications about getting out as many of these facilitation letters as possible. In some of those communications, to be honest with you, usually when pleading for more action I copied the ministers and I copied their chiefs of staff. This went on over several days until the bombing occurred.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77225277722528ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1730)[English]Just to clarify, when you say you copied them, did you copy their direct personal emails?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722529MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]I did.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722530ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon WestMarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]They answered me on occasion and they called me on occasion.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722532ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1730)[English]Was it on this specific letter you sent that you said you cc'd them?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722533MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]It was on the situation, on the fact that we weren't getting many of these women out, on anticipating that the soldiers would let them through and they weren't being let through.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722534ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon WestMarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]Also, there was quite a bit of communication about women parliamentarians in a very separate stream.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722536ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Did any minister ever directly communicate with you on the matter of your issuing the second template to Afghan nationals?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722541SalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]No.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722542MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]When was the first time you were made aware that any person in the government felt that these letters were either inauthentic or shouldn't have been issued through your office?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722543MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]In July 2022, I started to receive requests from The Globe and Mail—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722544MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Was this after I copied you on the issue of my...? I did copy you on an email that I sent to the minister of Global Affairs as well as the Minister of Immigration, because I didn't know where this letter came from.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722545MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]You did copy me on it. Interestingly enough, when we spoke in person in June, you never raised any of your concerns or criticisms with me.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77225467722547MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Right, because you fooled me. You fooled me. It's tough to do.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722548MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]I fooled you...? You fooled me. Why didn't you ask me the questions?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722549MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Because we hadn't heard back from the government yet. This is why I'm trying to ascertain who knew what when, and I'm trying to ascertain, after a year of my office asking where this letter came from, how nobody knew and how my constituent's family weren't allowed to apply for regular programs, even though they had a bona fide claim to Canada because they thought they had been let in by this letter. It fooled me. I didn't want to cast aspersions on you. That's why I wrote to the ministers and said, “Hey, what the heck? Where is this coming from?” That's me, but this is about you today. I want to know.... You said earlier that Minister Sajjan knew and Minister Mendicino knew. You said that Minister Garneau knew. I just want to be very clear. You believed that they knew you were issuing the second template to trusted organizations. They knew this.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77225507722551772255277225537722554MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]They were copied on correspondence that was dealing with this situation.Since this is about me, I would also like to say it's interesting that you were comfortable casting aspersions on me and then sharing that with The Globe and Mail, and—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees77225557722556MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Now you're putting aspersions on me.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722557MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]I'm describing what you did.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722558MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English] I don't know the reporting methods at The Globe and Mail. I just try to stay out of their crosshairs. I would recommend the same for anyone else in this room.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722559MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]They used your letter in following up with me.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722560MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]I would say this. I can tell you honestly that whoever leaked this issue on the front end was not me, but let's keep going.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722561MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]No. They were anonymous sources within IRCC.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722562MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]There we go. I want to know. You sent this list of people—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77225637722564MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]Lists...rolling lists.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722565MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]When did you send this list?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722566MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]Many times over several days.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722567MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]You were sending the rolling list. Were you saying that these are people who need to get out, or that these are people I'm issuing the letters for? AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722568MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]It was a combination, saying that we're issuing—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722569MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Can you table that with the committee?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722570MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]Yes, I can give you everything. I'm happy to. It's only in English, though.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722571MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Okay. I'm specifically interested. Can you tell me which email address...? To follow up from Ms. Kayabaga, you know for a fact that you sent it to the actual ministers' personal email addresses.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77225727722573MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]Their P9s. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722574MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Okay. Did you receive any responses from the ministers' P9s with regard to the facilitation letters?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77225757722576MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]I did.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722577MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Can you table that?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722578MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English] I also received phone calls.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722579MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Can you table that with the committee as well?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722580MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1730)[English]Yes, I can.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722581MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1730)[English]Okay.I also think that it's really important what Ms. Kayabaga said—desperately important. Regardless of what you may think, I think it is important for anyone listening to this committee to understand that parliamentarians in the Senate or in the House of Commons do not have authorization to grant access to Canada, because I think that—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77225827722583MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1735)[English]And I did not do that.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722584MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1735)[English]Okay. Senator, I'm not clear at this point what you thought you did. I have a letter here saying, “visa facilitation letter”. There's a Globe and Mail article saying that Ms. Robinson said this letter would definitely get them into Canada.For the record, for anybody who is listening around the world or in Canada, a parliamentarian cannot grant you access into Canada. We can't grant you access to an airport. There's a reason why we have government processes. I want to be very clear. Our job as parliamentarians is to fix the processes and to hold the government to account.Senator, you put my family's lives at risk. You did.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722585772258677225877722588MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1735)[English]I reject that allegation.Hon. Michelle Rempel Garner: You did.Hon. Marilou McPhedran: I reject that allegation. I did everything I could to try to help them.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees772258977225907722591MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1735)[English] No. They went to the airport and they came—AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722592MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1735)[English]They had to make choices.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722593MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1735)[English]They put their lives in danger and then they weren't able to apply for a regular program. Do you know how much heartbreak that...?Again, you just said earlier that you would do this all over again. Knowing what you know now, knowing that there are 150 people languishing in Albania because you took it upon yourself to issue these letters, would you do it again?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees77225947722595MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.MarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1735)[English]These women are in Albania with food, with shelter, with safety. They are in a much better position than in Afghanistan.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722596MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1735)[English]What about my family?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7722598SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarilouMcPhedranHon.Marilou-McPhedranInterventionHon. Marilou McPhedran: (1735)[English]Your family had to make choices like many of the other people we tried to help.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyMcPhedran, MarilouPassports and visasRefugees7722600SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1650)[English]Both you and Ms. West referenced other countries that would be captured by the regime. Could you give us your list of the 8% that you think would be captured?C-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyGovernment billsHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7723011JessicaDavisJessicaDavisJessicaDavisJessica-DavisInterventionMs. Jessica Davis: (1650)[English]It's 8% of countries worldwide, and I don't have the list in front of me. It would be Nigeria, Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan and parts of West Africa where terrorist groups are controlling territories. It's quite an extensive list at this point.C-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyGovernment billsHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7723012GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1650)[English]Ms. West, in terms of the list of countries, do you agree with that? Is there anything you want to add?C-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyGovernment billsHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7723013JessicaDavisLeahWestLeahWestLeah-WestInterventionDr. Leah West: (1650)[English]No. I would defer to Ms. Davis, especially on this point.Foreign policy7723014GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1650)[English]The definition of “terrorist group” in the Criminal Code, as I understand it, does not clearly exclude state actors. Some might argue, for instance, that Iran is a terrorist-controlled territory.Is it clear in the way the law is currently written whether or not it would apply when the government of a state is not a listed entity but has the attributes of a terrorist group?C-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyGovernment billsHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terroristsTerrorist entities watch lists7723020LeahWestLeahWestLeahWestLeah-WestInterventionDr. Leah West: (1650)[English] I would say that the legislation would apply in those contexts, but then you're asking the humanitarian organizations to make that determination, which, as I think MSF mentioned, goes against their rule of remaining impartial and neutral.C-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyGovernment billsHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terroristsTerrorist entities watch lists7723021GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanRandeepSaraiSurrey CentreShabnamSalehiShabnam-SalehiInterventionMs. Shabnam Salehi (As an Individual): (1725)[English] Dear Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I am honoured to have the opportunity to express my opinion regarding Bill C-41.I am Shabnam Salehi. I was the women's rights commissioner at the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, and besides that, I was a lecturer at Kabul University. Now I am a visiting lecturer at the University of Ottawa.In my opinion, the bill will grant the Canadian government the necessary permission to effectively address the ongoing crisis in Afghanistan.As you all are aware, Afghanistan is facing a humanitarian crisis that is affecting millions of people. According to OCHA, 28.3 million people have been found to have severe food insecurity, and nearly 19.9 million people suffer from acute hunger. According to the UNDP, as of mid-2022, almost 97% of Afghans were living below the World Bank's $1.90-per-day international poverty threshold.Additionally, poverty in Afghanistan is likely to become even worse. Before August 2021, Afghanistan's economy was 75% dependent on foreign aid. According to the World Bank, a rapid reduction in international grant support, loss of access to offshore assets and disruption in financial linkages are expected to lead to a major contraction of the economy, increasing poverty and macroeconomic instability.The de facto authority has been continuing to engage in discriminatory actions against women, exemplified by the Taliban's unjustified ban on girls' education. This ban is a result of the Taliban's extremist ideology, which promotes gender apartheid and seeks to exclude women from social life. The Taliban gradually enforced the bans through a series of decrees, starting with prohibiting male teachers from educating girls, followed by the implementation of gender-segregated classes and, ultimately, the closure of secondary education for girls. Additionally, the Taliban limited women's ability to choose certain academic fields and eventually prohibited female university students from pursuing higher education. This further exacerbated the issue, as women were prohibited from working, including in UN agencies. As of the beginning of this week, the Taliban has extended this crackdown on women's education by closing primary schools in four provinces of Afghanistan.Canada faces a crucial decision: whether to permit the oppressive regime in Afghanistan to continue its discriminatory practices or to take affirmative action to counter its suppression, specifically by empowering the people of Afghanistan, especially women. If Canada opts for the latter, I think the proposed bill allows a blueprint for implementing, executing and assisting the response under the current regime. I believe this bill will present a viable path forward by providing a plan to support the Afghan people, particularly women.My request to the committee is to ensure that the bill prioritizes the empowerment of women, social mobilization and civil movements as a means of confronting the discriminatory policies imposed by the regime. To achieve this, I propose that the bill strongly emphasize the distribution of aid towards women's empowerment, the protection and promotion of human rights, and widespread social mobilization.To achieve this mission, I believe that subsequent legislation, policies and programmatic interventions would align Canadian diplomatic and humanitarian assistance with that of other allies to accelerate pressure on the regime to change its discriminatory policies. This will provide Canada with the opportunity to actively engage in the process of empowering and supporting the people of Afghanistan towards a positive change that aligns with Canada's core interests and international commitments. By working in co-operation with other allies, Canada can pool resources and efforts towards a shared goal of creating a more just and equitable society in Afghanistan. This will also provide an opportunity for Canada to showcase its leadership in promoting human rights and gender equality globally.Thank you so much.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsEducation and trainingForeign policyGovernment billsHumanitarian assistance and workersPovertySexual discriminationTerrorism and terroristsWomen77231607723161RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104922LucDesiletsLuc-DesiletsRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesiletsLuc_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Desilets: (1640)[Translation]We have the interpretation now. We are in a supposedly bilingual country.Ms. Park, you've written a lot of articles and your resume is really impressive. Based on the studies and reading you've done, are there any exemplary countries that have practices that we could learn from when it comes to sexual misconduct?Without minimizing it, far from it, I imagine that the problem exists in the militaries of all countries. There is machismo in these types of organizations. Are there any countries that have looked at this problem and thought that sexual misconduct is unacceptable?In the last year or two, it seems like there's been some movement here in Canada since the new minister came in. She would like to take a little more space.Where in the world do you think anything smart is being done?Conduct at workForeign policySexual behaviourStatus of womenVeterans7713082RosemaryParkRosemaryParkRosemaryParkRosemary-ParkInterventionMs. Rosemary Park: (1640)[English]If I may say so, what we see in other countries is women veterans acting and organizing to assert themselves not as individuals, as the moral voices that we have here, but as coordinated push-back, so we see in other countries the involvement of women themselves. We had done this with the class action, but they are much more involved, and I would say in the States in particular. Have the militaries....Conduct at workForeign policySexual behaviourStatus of womenVeterans77130857713086LucDesiletsRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLucDesiletsRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104922LucDesiletsLuc-DesiletsRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DesiletsLuc_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Desilets: (1640)[Translation]Are any defence departments elsewhere that are proactive in this regard?Conduct at workForeign policySexual behaviourStatus of womenVeterans7713087RosemaryParkDonnaRiguidelDonnaRiguidelDonna-RiguidelInterventionMs. Donna Riguidel: (1640)[Translation]This is not a problem unique to the military, it is a problem unique to humans. Every solution that governments and the military try to provide—[English]Every time we try to address this with a military solution, we fail, because it's not a military problem. We can't discipline this problem away. We can't punish it away. Every military that's integrated in the world struggles with this. We are all failing at it, and the reason is that we haven't switched to a survivor-centred, trauma-informed approach. We haven't gotten to the point where instead of right away rushing to how we should arrest the perpetrator and charge them in a criminal justice system—which, let's face it, fails and is not set up to do anything really effective—we switch right away to how we should support the survivor to start them on the path to healing, to start them on the path to either returning to service—if that's what they want—mentally healthy or cycling out, again, mentally supported and feeling as though we have their backs. How do we do that? When we crack on with that, it is going to start to accomplish things. The reason we're failing is that we don't do that, and we also introduce training systems that don't make sense. The one—Conduct at workForeign policySexual behaviourStatus of womenVeterans7713090771309177130927713093LucDesiletsRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLucDesiletsRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesJonathanManthorpeJonathan-ManthorpeInterventionMr. Jonathan Manthorpe (International Affairs Columnist and Author, As an Individual): (0855)[English] Good morning, everyone. Thank you for this opportunity.I'm also honoured to be among such a good raft of witnesses for you. Let me just say that I agree with everything that you've heard so far this morning. I think those were both excellent presentations, and I'm sure it will be the same from the other witnesses.I'm going to be very brief and basically just outline what is covered in my 2019 book, Claws of the Panda.Relations at the official level between Canada and the Chinese Communist Party began in China in the 1930s—over 80 years ago. What is remarkable is how little the attitudes towards the relationship and the objectives of both sides have changed over those eight decades.In their early encounters with Chinese Communist cadres, Canadian officials showed a fundamental naïveté about the purposes of the party that continues to this today, despite all the evidence that they are delusional.From the start, though, the Canadians saw the Communists as a reformist rather than a revolutionary party. They nursed then, and many still do, the hope and expectation that the Canadian models of politics, administration and law would be templates for reform that the Chinese Communist Party would follow.The Huawei affair, which started just as my book, Claws of the Panda, was being published, should have dispelled that blind optimism. It should have made it clear, beyond doubt, that we have no shared values with the Chinese Communist Party, and that we cannot have a normal relationship with a regime whose first instinct when there is a problem is to take hostages.The Chinese Communist Party's objectives in the relationship have been equally consistent.First was, and is, to make Canada a supporter of Beijing on the international stage where possible, and to minimize Ottawa's criticism if there is no support.Second was, and is, to gain access through Canadian universities and research institutes to Canadian and United States technology, especially technology with military uses.Third was, and is, to get unrestricted access to Canadian agricultural and natural resources. The Chinese Communist Party does not believe in market economics.Fourth was, and is, to have open access to Canada's market for Chinese manufactured goods.Fifth, and critically important in my view, was, and is, to be able to control and use Canadians of Chinese heritage, especially those advocating for reform in China.By my count, the Chinese Communist Party has achieved all its objectives in Canada, while we have hardly had a shot on goal.I will end there, and I will be happy to try to answer any questions from committee members.Thank you.ChinaForeign influenced activitiesForeign policyInternational relations7689381768938276893837689384768938576893867689387JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilJohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilDanielTurpDaniel-TurpInterventionMr. Daniel Turp (Emeritus Professor, Faculty of Law, Université de Montréal, As an Individual): (1145)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Members of Parliament, Madam Clerk, I would like to begin by greeting the members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development and expressing my pleasure at appearing again before a committee of the House of Commons, where I actually had the privilege of serving as the member of Parliament for Beauharnois-Salaberry during the 36th Parliament, from 1997 to 2000.I am here in response to the invitation to appear, sent to me by your clerk, on Bill C-281. As you said, Mr. Chair, I will unfortunately have to leave you quickly because I have a commitment that I want to honour, like any member, or former member, who wants to keep their word.In the brief time I have, in those five minutes, I will comment on one clause of the bill, the one that proposes that the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act be amended.I also want to say that I agree with the other three clauses of Bill C-281 that propose to amend the three other acts mentioned in the bill. So it is clause 2 of the bill that I am particularly interested in, the one that seeks to amend section 10 of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act by adding subsection 10(4).You will recall that this section provides that, in exercising his or her powers, duties and functions under the act in respect of the conduct of the external affairs of Canada, the minister is to publish, at least once in every calendar year: a report that outlines the measures taken to advance human rights internationally as part of Canada’s foreign policy; and a list that sets out the names and circumstances of the prisoners of conscience detained worldwide on whose release the Government of Canada is actively working.First of all, I fully agree with the proposal to create a requirement for the Minister of Foreign Affairs to publish a report on the advancement of human rights around the world. In fact, Canada would not be the first country to publish such a report. The United States of America has been doing so for almost 50 years. Its latest report was released just a few days ago, on March 20. It is a report broken down by country, which includes comments on Canada and the situation of human rights in Canada. Such reports are also published by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and by a number of non-governmental organizations, most notably Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.In my view, the publication of such a report would provide an additional source of information on the state of human rights around the world, within the international community and across states, from a Canadian perspective, and would contribute to a better understanding of the state of human rights around the world.On the subject of prisoners of conscience and the proposed list to be published, I would first suggest that you define the concept of “prisoners of conscience”. Amnesty International's definition might serve as inspiration:Amnesty International considers a Prisoner of Conscience (POC) to be any person imprisoned or otherwise physically restricted (like house arrest), solely because of his/her political, religious or other conscientiously held beliefs, their ethnic origin, sex, color, language, national or social origin, economic status, birth, sexual orientation or other status, and who has not used violence or advocated violence or hatred.I have a second and final point to make.With respect to the list, I agree with the idea expressed during the review of Bill C-281, in particular the idea expressed by MP Christine Normandin, that exceptions should be allowed and names omitted from the list, and that mechanisms should be developed to do so because of the possible security breach for prisoners that could result from such publication.Members of Parliament, Mr. Chair, these are a few observations. I hope they will be useful.I wish you good deliberations. I regret that I won't be able to be with you for a longer period of time. I hope that Bill C-281 will be passed.C-281, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions ActCivil and human rightsFederal institutions annual reportsForeign policyPrisoners of consciencePrivate Members' Bills7686847AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdaleKatherineLeungKatherine-LeungInterventionMs. Katherine Leung (Policy Adviser, Hong Kong Watch): (1200)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.My name is Katherine Leung, and I am the policy adviser for Hong Kong Watch in Canada.Hong Kong Watch supports the heart of Bill C-281, which would make it easier for parliamentarians to recommend foreign officials who should be included on a sanctions list, including those guilty of the ongoing human rights crackdown in Hong Kong. As committee members will no doubt be aware, many of these Hong Kong officials have links to Canada, including owning property, having family members with foreign passports and having been educated here. The bill would also rightly increase the government's powers to ban state propaganda outfits operating in Canada, like CGTN, which spread disinformation and seek to interfere in our public debates. Such a ban would bring Canada in line with like-minded partners like the U.K., which banned CGTN in February 2021.This specific amendment to the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act is a welcome provision. As I am sure members are aware, Hong Kong has over 1,000 political prisoners at this time, and this number is only growing. We note that there are several political prisoners who previously held Canadian citizenship or who have family links to Canada. The Hong Kong authorities have jailed so many political prisoners in the last several years that overcrowding in prisons is a growing problem. The authorities are running out of space to put the activists, journalists and trade unionists they have incarcerated.Hong Kong has one of the largest populations of political prisoners in the world, with over 10,000 politically related arrests since 2019. We urge Global Affairs to consider better tools to track and identify those prisoners of conscience who have links to Canada. We believe that this new provision will allow NGOs, like Hong Kong Watch, to be better equipped to advocate for the release of people whose only crime is to fight for the betterment of their country. With regard to the provision for the Sergei Magnitsky Law, we should be proud to be one of the first countries in the world to adopt a Magnitsky sanctions regime, which allows us to target and hold to account individual human rights violators. It is, therefore, sad to note that not a single entity or individual from China has currently been sanctioned by Canada under the Magnitsky law. As members will be aware, Canada has sanctioned just four individuals and one entity in China for human rights violations in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region under the Special Economic Measures Act. We have no shortage of reasons to sanction Chinese and Hong Kong officials. In fact, parliamentarians have repeatedly, in the form of letters and committee reports, called on the government to do so.Sanctions are a tool for Canada to hold human rights violators accountable. Tools only work when they are used. From what we have seen, there is an inconsistency in the government's approach. It has introduced a Magnitsky sanctions regime that it claims is world leading, yet it refuses to use it, instead relying on SEMA. The sole purpose of the Magnitsky law is to protect human rights on a global scale, whereas SEMA exists as an economic sanctions scheme and is not intended to be used solely against human rights violations.The proposal of this bill to create a mechanism by which the Minister of Foreign Affairs is required to respond to recommendations made by a parliamentary committee is a welcome step forward. This will not only serve as a way to incentivize the government to utilize this tool for its intended purpose but will also provide transparency on the reasons behind such decisions. After all, sanctions do not sit in a vacuum away from wider policy-making. They are political in nature and have a significant impact on the bilateral relations between countries. The decision and reasoning to not sanction an individual human rights violator is as important as the rationale for doing so. This provision of the bill will help inform the public, civil society groups and NGOs on the wider thinking when it comes to the government's sanctions policy and its commitments to uphold human rights.Turning to the amendment to the Broadcasting Act, I believe Canadians would find it reasonable that regimes that are committing genocide or ongoing human rights violations should not be given a platform on Canadian airwaves. The distribution of state propaganda from countries that grossly violate human rights is not in the public interest. For example, CGTN is under the control of the central propaganda department of the Chinese Communist Party. It is a tool of propaganda, disinformation and the violation of human rights. In 2019, CGTN aired a forced-confession video of Hong Kong activist Simon Cheng that was recorded under duress and which he was coerced into filming as a condition for his release. CGTN has also broadcast blatant disinformation, denying the Uyghur genocide, mischaracterizing the Hong Kong pro-democracy movement as riots rather than peaceful protests, and claiming that COVID-19 originated in the U.S. in contradiction to scientific evidence.An important point to raise is this: Who is on the receiving end of this propaganda? In Canada, it is largely Chinese immigrant communities that are consuming this. To allow CGTN to continue operating on public, state-owned Canadian airwaves is to allow Beijing's propaganda to misinform, propagandize and have direct influence on Chinese-speaking Canadians.In closing, I will say that we are supportive of Bill C-281 as a way to increase the government's accountability and transparency in Canada's role in upholding human rights internationally.Thank you.BroadcastingC-281, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions ActChinaCivil and human rightsDisinformationEconomic sanctionsForeign policyForeign public officialsHong KongHong Kong WatchInformation disseminationJustice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law)Political prisonersPrisoners of consciencePrivate Members' BillsSpecial Economic Measures Act7686893AliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): (1220)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you to both of the witnesses for being here today and sharing your testimony with us. I think it's so important for us to hear this. I also sit on the international human rights subcommittee, so I have heard some testimony regarding the residential schools in Tibet. Thank you for being here.I'm going to ask the same questions. I'm going to ask two questions and then I'll give you some time to respond, if that's all right. With regard to Bill C-281, the New Democratic Party is bringing forward a number of different amendments. One amendment we'd like to see is with regard to a human rights strategy. Canada does not have a human rights strategy that we could use as a baseline for the annual report. We're pushing for having that baseline, so that the government could show what they've achieved using that as the baseline.I'd like some information from you on whether or not you would agree that a human rights strategy would be useful in this legislation.The other piece I'd like to ask you about very quickly.... In this legislation, we have a definition of a “prisoner of conscience”. Now, Alex Neve, who was the secretary general of Amnesty International, joined us at our last meeting. He suggested that, instead of it being a “prisoner of conscience”, we should have a definition that refers to individuals who are detained or experiencing other treatment in contravention of international human rights standards.Would you agree that it would be useful to have that within this legislation? Perhaps you can expand on that.Perhaps I'll start with you, Mr. Therchin.C-281, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions ActCivil and human rightsForeign policyPrisoners of consciencePrivate Members' Bills76869847686985768698676869877686988768698976869907686991AliEhsassiWillowdaleSherapTherchinSherapTherchinSherap-TherchinInterventionMr. Sherap Therchin: (1220)[English]It would certainly be helpful, and I agree on the amendment of a human rights strategy in Bill C-281.I'm not very familiar with the technicalities, but I would certainly defer to Alex Neve, whom I have known for many years as a very well-respected human rights defender and supporter of all the victims of Chinese oppression, whether it's Tibetans, Uyghurs or Hong Kongers.In this case, I would agree with what Alex Neve has recommended.C-281, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions ActCivil and human rightsForeign policyPrisoners of consciencePrivate Members' Bills768699276869937686994HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1220)[English]I think it gives more breadth. What he brought up is the idea that there are people who have been detained, or there are people of whom we don't actually know whether they've been detained, but we would also want them to have protection under some of this legislation.Ms. Leung, could you provide your thoughts?C-281, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions ActCivil and human rightsForeign policyPrisoners of consciencePrivate Members' Bills76869957686996SherapTherchinKatherineLeungKatherineLeungKatherine-LeungInterventionMs. Katherine Leung: (1220)[English]Yes. Both amendments would be agreeable to me. I don't see why there cannot be a human rights strategy from the government. We have seen a lot of different statements of concern and mandate letters, etc., from the government, without a solid human rights strategy. I think that would be helpful, especially for NGOs like Hong Kong Watch that are advocating for human rights.As for the amendment for the definition of “prisoner of conscience”, I believe that would be helpful. It would definitely add more clarity to how the bill is to be applied.C-281, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions ActCivil and human rightsForeign policyPrisoners of consciencePrivate Members' Bills768699776869987686999HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1320)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Ms. Deif, I'd like to ask you a question.The NDP will introduce an amendment requiring the government to develop an international human rights strategy. It would then allow for an annual report to address it.Do you agree that such a strategy is necessary, and could you tell us a bit about why you would agree with that?C-281, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions ActCivil and human rightsFederal institutions annual reportsForeign policyPrivate Members' Bills7687215768721676872177687218AliEhsassiWillowdaleFaridaDeifFaridaDeifFarida-DeifInterventionMs. Farida Deif: (1320)[English] A strategy is critical. As I mentioned earlier, we've had five different foreign ministers in the past seven years I've been in this role. That's significant transition. Having an overarching, multi-year strategy would mean that there would be some continuity on key human rights files. We wouldn't be reinventing the wheel with every transition. It's certainly critical to have a human rights strategy for that reason. It's also in order to create a sort of yardstick or benchmark to assess the minister's actions and activities with respect to human rights. That, I think, will be very critical. I would just make a final point, if I have the time.I know there's been a conversation around “prisoners of conscience” and the framing of the language around the human rights reporting. I agree with Alex Neve in terms of the language being about prisoners who are being detained in violation of international law. I think that's a much broader definition, which would also capture the two Michaels who were detained in China, for example. It would capture Canadian Iranian dual nationals and others who are detained on trumped up espionage, terrorism or treason charges who are not necessarily prisoners of conscience—they may just be ordinary engineers, doctors, etc.—but are dual nationals and are then detained. I think a larger, over-encompassing definition would be much more effective.C-281, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act, the Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law), the Broadcasting Act and the Prohibiting Cluster Munitions ActCivil and human rightsFederal institutions annual reportsForeign policyPrivate Members' Bills768721976872207687221LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.)): (1630)[English] I call this meeting to order.Welcome to meeting number 57 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.Today we will continue our study of the government's response to the final report of the special committee on Afghanistan. With us is the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. Welcome, Minister, and thanks for appearing before the committee.He is joined by officials from the Department of Justice. Today we have Robert Brookfield, director general and senior general counsel, criminal law policy section; and Glenn Gilmour, counsel, criminal law policy section.Welcome, everybody. Minister, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks.AfghanistanForeign policy7686206768620776862087686209768621076862117686212AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): (1630)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I wish to thank the members of this committee for inviting me to speak about the government response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan called “Honouring Canada's Legacy in Afghanistan: Responding to the Humanitarian Crisis and Helping People Reach Safety”.I'd also like to thank my colleagues from the Department of Justice, Robert Brookfield and Glenn Gilmour.My remarks will focus on those recommendations from the final report that relate to my responsibilities as the Minister of Justice, specifically those that relate to changes to the Criminal Code.[English]As you likely know, my colleague the Minister of Public Safety introduced Bill C-41 earlier this month to address the issues raised in this area of the report. It has now been referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, and I hope all colleagues can work together to advance this important legislation expeditiously.Recommendations 10 and 11 of the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan called for two things. First, they called for clarity in the law and, in particular, a specific exemption to the terrorism-financing offence in paragraph 83.03(b) to allow registered Canadian organizations to deliver much-needed humanitarian assistance and other basic goods to the people of Afghanistan without facing the risk of criminal liability. Second, they called for the government to review the terrorism-financing provisions in the Criminal Code and to take the urgent legislative steps necessary to ensure that those provisions do not unduly restrict legitimate humanitarian action that complies with international humanitarian principles and law.[Translation]After the terrorist attacks in the United States on September 11, 2001, Canada responded to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373 and enacted, within months, the Anti-terrorism Act, 2001. Among other things, this act amended the Criminal Code to create several offences designed to prevent acts of terrorism, which included three terrorism-financing offences.Enacted rapidly to deal with the important threat from terrorism that the world was facing, those offences are broad and strict in their application.[English]One of these offences is found in paragraph 83.03(b) of the Criminal Code. That offence makes it a crime to directly or indirectly collect, make available, provide or invite someone to provide property or financial or related services, knowing they will be used by or will benefit a terrorist group. The legislation created in 2001 does not create any statutory exemptions to that offence.In contrast, the regimes of many of our allies, including the U.S. and the United Kingdom, are more flexible and can accommodate targeted exceptions, which has allowed them to amend their regimes more quickly in response to the current reality in Afghanistan and to contribute to international aid efforts.This brings us to the situation in Afghanistan today. Before August 2021, many NGOs were working diligently to provide humanitarian assistance and other kinds of assistance to the people of Afghanistan, often with financial assistance from governments.[Translation]As we are all too well aware, all that changed in the spring and summer of 2021 when the Taliban swept into power. Although Canada does not recognize the Taliban regime as government, the Taliban has de facto authority in Afghanistan and performs normal state functions, such as tax collection.Looking at it from a Canadian perspective, there are good reasons for concern about the application of the Criminal Code to the activities of Canadian NGOs and government officials who assist them. Should they make payments, knowing that some of those monies would go to the Taliban, a terrorist group, for example by paying for salaries of Afghan employees who are subject to income tax, they could risk criminal liability under the terrorist financing offence in paragraph 83.03(b).(1635)[English] Bill C-41 will create an authorization regime that would allow the Minister of Public Safety to grant an authorization to Canadian organizations to conduct activities falling within a specified purpose, such as providing humanitarian assistance or providing health care or education, in Afghanistan or other areas controlled by a terrorist group. Those who receive an authorization and respect its terms would be shielded from the risk of criminal liability when carrying out those authorized activities. A national security review would be required, and other procedural safeguards would remain in place. This change would allow Canadian humanitarian organizations to continue operating in Afghanistan and to deliver desperately needed assistance, while continuing to protect Canadians through robust anti-terrorist laws and close oversight.Thank you again, Madam Chair, for inviting me to speak. I'm available to answer your questions.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsTerrorism and terrorists7686219768622076862217686222768622376862247686225768622676862277686228768622976862307686231768623276862337686234SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC): (1635)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you, Minister.Minister, under Bill C-41, how long do you expect it to take to approve an application from an organization?AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768623876862397686240SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1635)[English]That's probably a question better addressed to the Minister of Public Safety when he's in front of you, I believe, in the very near future.I know, from having heard him present the bill both in the House of Commons and at a press conference, that he would like to move expeditiously in order to allow humanitarian groups that are working in Afghanistan to move as quickly as they possibly can.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862417686242GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1635)[English]Expeditious isn't a timeline. I know that no representative of your government has said this publicly. These timelines are very important for these organizations.As you alluded, we're far behind our allies. The Afghanistan committee made all-party recommendations in June of last year. The foreign affairs committee adopted a motion calling for action in the fall, and we're already at the end of March here.The question isn't so much about the timeline for passing the legislation. Once the legislation passes, how long will it take to turn around applications from organizations? We certainly don't want to lose another winter of not being able to have Canadian organizations involved in the humanitarian response.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768624376862447686245DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1635)[English]That's certainly a fair question, Mr. Genuis, but it is a question better addressed to the Minister of Public Safety. Again, my understanding is that his intention will be to move as expeditiously as possible with those applications once the law is passed.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862467686247GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1635)[English]Could you or your colleagues work to follow up in writing with the committee, either directly from your department or from Public Safety, with what the estimated or the desired timelines would be for approving applications?AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686248DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1635)[English]Again, it falls within his responsibilities. I will allow him to make the engagement and the undertaking.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686249GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1635)[English]How broad will the applications from organizations be able to be? If an organization is making an application to provide assistance, will it have to be for a limited period of time, or will they have a “permanent until revoked” authorization to run similar kinds of projects? Will the same authorization potentially apply to multiple organizations working together or on similar projects, or will they be narrowly constrained in terms of organization and the amount of time?AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862507686251DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1635)[English]The point of the law is to allow a sufficient degree of flexibility for humanitarian agencies working on the ground, while still protecting our ability to combat terrorism and terrorist financing. It's critical that we strike a balance. The law is meant to strike a balance.My understanding is that humanitarian groups will apply to the minister, so, again, it's probably a question best left to the Minister of Public Safety in terms of how he's going to exercise his discretion. My understanding of the law is that it is flexible and that it will allow for the Minister of Public Safety to make those determinations.In the likely course of events, it will be humanitarian organizations applying with a description of the activities that they want to undertake. The exemption will be tailored according to that application.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768625276862537686254GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]From the perspective of the Criminal Code amendments, what you're saying is that the powers that are given to the minister are extremely broad in terms of whether the minister is going to use that discretion to apply broader exemptions without time limits or narrower exemptions with time limits.It's essentially entirely a matter of discretion with the minister.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862557686256DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1640)[English]That's certainly my understanding.Rob, do you want to add to that?AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862577686258GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanRobertBrookfieldRobertBrookfieldRobert-BrookfieldInterventionMr. Robert Brookfield (Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice): (1640)[English] The legislation as drafted, if it gets passed, states, in proposed subsection 83.‍032(1), “to carry out, in a specified geographic area that is controlled by a terrorist 10 group, a specified activity that would otherwise be prohibited”. That's the power to the Minister of Public Safety.There are timelines on that, but his discretion is fairly unbound in that circumstance.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsDepartment of JusticeForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862597686260DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English] Are there limits to the time he can set it for?AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686261RobertBrookfieldRobertBrookfieldRobertBrookfieldRobert-BrookfieldInterventionMr. Robert Brookfield: (1640)[English]There's a requirement to reapply after five years.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686262GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]It's five years, okay.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686263RobertBrookfieldGlennGilmourGlennGilmourGlenn-GilmourInterventionMr. Glenn Gilmour (Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice): (1640)[English] You can renew the initial time frame for each authorization. It's a maximum of five years, but it can be renewed.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsDepartment of JusticeForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686264GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]Thank you.In the time I have left, why not have legislation that generally says that organizations that have the appropriate level of oversight and that are engaged in humanitarian activities that are, in particular ways, minimizing any payments that go to local authorities...? Why not provide that exception on a more general basis, rather than simply having a piece of legislation that empowers the minister to do whatever he or she wants in terms of granting or not granting, or giving it to some organizations or not? That is potentially very costly and labour-intensive on the part of the organizations as well as the government. Why not do what our allies have done and provide a more general humanitarian exemption?AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768626576862667686267GlennGilmourDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1640)[English]Again, it's particular to Canada and the way in which we have very tough anti-terrorist financing laws embedded in the Criminal Code. We do still have—AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686268GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]Just to jump in on that, wouldn't the Americans and the British say they have tough laws as well, though?AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686269DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1640)[English]We do still have to fight against terrorist financing, which is important. We have to balance between the two, so we are giving a sufficient degree of flexibility to humanitarian organizations. We are very happy with the bill, by the way, but it still allows us to fight terrorism.If you go in the direction you have recommended, Mr. Genuis, you open up the possibility that somebody could try to work around the—AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862717686272SalmaZahidScarborough CentreGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]Do you think the American and the British rules are inadequate?AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686273DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1640)[English]I think we have chosen the best set of rules that apply to Canadian structures.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686274GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]The implication is that the Americans and the British aren't serious— AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686275DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1640)[English]—or don't have serious and effective regimes on this. I think they're—AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686277SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1640)[English]No, not at all. It's just that they have different structures, with much more discretion on the part of their elected officials to act. Their discretion is elsewhere.The Attorney General in the United States is an investigating attorney general, which I am not. It's a very different set of systems. We've tailored the best set for ours.AfghanistanApplication processAssociations, institutions and organizationsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862787686279GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga (London West, Lib.): (1640)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to start my questions by thanking the minister for taking the time to appear at this committee and for answering these very important questions for the many people in our communities.As Canadians we do take pride in our history of helping other countries, countries that are in the most vulnerable situations. We have a long-standing commitment, as a government, toward Afghanistan. The work that you've done and that we've done reflects our values as Canadians. We have to continue to provide pathways to provide humanitarian aid in ways that don't violate our strong anti-terrorism laws. Could you comment on what criminal laws apply in Canada with respect to financing terrorism?AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686282768628376862847686285SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1640)[English]As I mentioned in a more cryptic fashion in my opening presentation, there are several financing of terrorism offences in the Criminal Code: providing or collecting property, intending or knowing, so wilful recklessness, that it will be used to carry out a terrorist activity; and providing or making available property, intending or knowing that it will be used by a terrorist activity or terrorist group. Those are the intentional offences. There is also using property for the purpose of carrying out a terrorist activity, or possessing property intending that it be used. Aiding and abetting all of the above are also offences under the Criminal Code. These offences apply to Canadians outside of Canada, but also to persons who are not necessarily Canadian citizens but ordinarily resident in Canada. All of these are listed in the Criminal Code. We have created the ability to create exemptions and given that power to the Minister of Public Safety, in order to allow humanitarian aid and assistance to happen.AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862867686287ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1645)[English]We've heard a lot of misinformation that people like to put out there and confuse Canadians on what we're actually doing. Could you tell us why the humanitarian aid regime in Canada is embedded within the Criminal Code?AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686288DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1645)[English] That was a decision, again, as I mentioned cryptically in my opening remarks, made in the wake of 9/11 to have very strong terrorist financing provisions in the Criminal Code in order to get at the kinds of activities, direct and indirect, that were used to finance terrorist activity. In the moment they were done, they were done for the right reasons. They were a strong set of provisions, but they were done quickly and we now have a different situation in which we have what was previously a terrorist sect in Afghanistan becoming the de facto regime in Afghanistan. We had already declared them a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code, and they became a de facto regime. We expose, therefore, a number of humanitarian groups to the risk of prosecution under the Criminal Code, given the definitions we came up with in 2001. This is a way to balance, in a safe and secure way, those interests and give them certainty that they won't be prosecuted for what they're doing.AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862897686290ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1645)[English]Again, for the sake of the misinformation that's out there right now, could you also comment on whether or not this would undermine our ability to combat terrorism in Canada?AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686291DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1645)[English]No, it shouldn't, because the baseline provision is still a Criminal Code provision and what we carve out is an exceptional regime. A humanitarian group will apply to the minister, detail the kinds of activities they are undertaking or would like to undertake and then the minister will be able to grant an exemption. For other groups, other activities, those Criminal Code provisions will still apply.AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686292ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1645)[English]I still have time, so maybe you can share some insight on what the process would look like. How closely will the departments and agencies be working together to move quickly on this?AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686293DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1645)[English]That's probably a question best addressed to the Minister of Public Safety when you see him in short order. Again, from what I've seen him say at the introductory press conference, he would like to work closely with the agencies. He's already invited them to start thinking about what they would like to do and apply for. My sense is that he will work closely and expeditiously with each agency as they apply.AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686294ArielleKayabagaLondon WestArielleKayabagaLondon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/110502ArielleKayabagaArielle-KayabagaLondon WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KayabagaArielle_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Arielle Kayabaga: (1645)[English]Could you speak to how this proposed framework minimizes the risk of benefits occurring to the Taliban or other terrorist entities as well?AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686295DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1645)[English]By asking agencies to think through their activities, it certainly, I suppose, predicts the kinds of activities as well as the kinds of expenses they are going to undertake in Afghanistan, which allows us to tailor what we're doing. Again, we want first and foremost for these groups to be able to undertake humanitarian activities in a safe and secure way in Afghanistan. If there are some incidental tax payments or other things that might go to the regime, that may be something the minister will take into account and allow to happen. However, as I had stated, the original Criminal Code provisions remain in place for everything else, so it helps us keep an eye on the larger picture of terrorist financing at the same time.AfghanistanCriminal lawFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76862967686297ArielleKayabagaLondon WestSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1645)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Minister, thank you for being here. I understand that you were anxiously awaiting your appearance before the committee today and I thank you for that.At the February 7, 2022, meeting of the Special Committee on Afghanistan, I first asked a question about Canadian NGOs not being able to do their work on the ground in Afghanistan under Canada's Criminal Code. On February 17, 2022, I sought unanimous consent to introduce a motion to permit Canadian NGOs to do their work on the ground without fear of prosecution, and as I understood it, the cabinet blocked that motion. Subsequently, a number of ministers and NGOs appeared before the committee.So the problem was identified quite some time ago. Why did it take so long for this bill to be introduced, Mr. Minister?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686301768630276863037686304SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]First, I must say that the bill was introduced by the Minister of Public Safety.Secondly, I—AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76863057686306AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]Yes, but it has to do with the Criminal Code.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686307DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]I know that, but many of the amendments to the Criminal Code fall under that minister's responsibility. Obviously, I am responsible for the Criminal Code, but parts of the specific policy we're talking about fall under another minister's and another department's responsibility.I obviously can't speak to cabinet discussions, as they are subject to cabinet confidence and solicitor-client privilege.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76863087686309AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]I just want to know why it took so long. I'm not asking you for privileged information.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686310DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]It's complex. We—AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686311AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]It's complex. Okay, perfect; that's what I thought you would say.When the pandemic hit in March 2020, programs like the Canada emergency response benefit and the Canada emergency wage subsidy were put in place within a few weeks because it was urgent that we act swiftly.Wasn't it complex to set up those programs?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768631276863137686314DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]It was very complex—AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686315AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]…and yet, it got done in a few weeks.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686316DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]…and I'm very proud to have taken part in the discussions to set up those programs.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686317AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]I am too.In your opinion, is a Canadian who has lost their job and is in urgent need of help more important than an Afghan child who is dying because the situation is so urgent?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76863187686319DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]We can't compare the two.We have to work in a context where the situation in Afghanistan is constantly changing. Obviously, we have concerns about institutions and agencies that are currently doing exceptional work in Afghanistan, but we also have laws to counter terrorism financing. In addition, Canada's justice system is unique: we have prosecutors, investigators and police.It's not necessarily an easy situation.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768632076863217686322AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]Okay. We were able to help when the pandemic struck, but we're unable to help when children are dying and we have a duty to protect them because we took part in the deployment in Afghanistan. That's what I understand.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686323DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]Respectfully, Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, that's not what I said.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686324AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]You took a long time to step up even though you knew the situation was very serious and you were aware of the problem.What's more, you talked about Resolution 1373 adopted in 2001 by the U.N. Security Council. You said that it took the government a few months to enact legislation to accommodate and amend the Criminal Code in response to that resolution.On December 22, 2021, U.N. Security Council Resolution 2615 was tabled to prevent the financing of terrorist entities and to allow NGOs to do their work on the ground.Why did it take only a few months to respond to a U.N. Security Council resolution in 2001, but it took 18 months in 2021?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686325768632676863277686328DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]First, I must say that I wasn't here in 2001.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686329AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]So it was possible to do it in 2001, but it wasn't possible to do it in 2021.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686330DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]I wasn't in government at the time.That said, we just introduced a bill that is very much in line with that second resolution.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76863317686332AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]That's fine. So it was easier to act swiftly in 2001 than it was in 2021.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686333DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]That's not what I said. You're putting words in my mouth and that's not really right.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686334AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]I'm sorry, I certainly wouldn't want to do that.Have you consulted with NGOs operating in countries where Bill C‑41 would apply?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsPublic consultationTerrorism and terrorists76863357686336DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]It's Minister Mendicino's job to do those consultations. To my knowledge, he has done some, based on the interactions I saw between such NGOs and him at a press conference.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsPublic consultationTerrorism and terrorists7686337AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]I don't believe we consulted with Doctors Without Borders, which is quite a large humanitarian organization.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsPublic consultationTerrorism and terrorists7686338DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]I know that organization did submit recommendations.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersNon-governmental organizationsPublic consultationTerrorism and terrorists7686339AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1650)[Translation]I'm going to ask you a fairly simple question that Doctors Without Borders wants me to ask you: Why has this government, which committed to upholding international humanitarian law by ratifying the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols as early as 1965, not suggested that we adopt a blanket exemption to automatically exclude impartial humanitarian actors and activities from the terrorism offences that apply to the entire section of the Criminal Code, and not just to section 83.03(b), as proposed by a number of NGOs and by the Special Committee on Afghanistan in its report?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686340DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1650)[Translation]As I said, we have a framework in Canada where investigations are conducted and prosecutions are brought independently of government. It's something Rob Nicholson did as a minister, and I fully support what he did. So we have to work within that system, which doesn't necessarily work the same way as it does in the United States, England or other countries. We've chosen a regime that can protect organizations like Doctors Without Borders and allow us to meet our other obligations, while also respecting the institutions that were made in Canada.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686341AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1655)[Translation]Why didn't you suggest that we adopt the blanket exemption? That was my simple question to you.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686342DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1655)[Translation]It's a question best asked of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ms. Joly.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsFinancingForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686343AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): (1655)[English] Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here today. I think we've been waiting for a long time to engage with you. We very much appreciate this.The NDP, of course—through my colleagues Heather McPherson, who is the foreign affairs critic, and Alistair MacGregor, who is the public safety critic—wrote to the government on this issue back in December 2021. Subsequently, a follow-up letter was written, in February, to various ministers, asking why action couldn't be taken.This was especially in light of the testimony presented to the Special Committee on Afghanistan by NGOs that were unable to provide aid on the ground to people who were in desperate need. In fact, World Vision indicated—as did a number of NGOs that came—that, because of these anti-terrorism laws, children were dying of malnutrition. They had packets ready to go and ready to be delivered on the ground, in order to save lives. They were unable to do so.I'm really struggling to understand why it's taken, basically, two years for Canada to get to this stage, where this Criminal Code change is finally before us for deliberation.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76863517686352768635376863547686355SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1655)[English]Thank you for the question.Look, I understand the frustration. Certainly, there was a challenge in front of us, in Afghanistan. It was a rather unique situation: a terrorist sect that then became a de facto government and authority.My role, in all of this, is to act and look at the legal context. I think we have, now, in this law, a piece of legislation that amends the Criminal Code and works within the Canadian context. It protects these organizations and their very good work on the ground, while respecting the various structures of investigation and prosecution in Canada. It ensures they won't be prosecuted.This, in my view, is the best way forward. It is in response to a very complex situation.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686356768635776863587686359JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1655)[English]Minister, that doesn't answer the question of why it took so long.In the Afghanistan committee, we had different ministers come forward. Each of us, across party lines—to be honest with you—asked the various different ministers about this. Each of them passed the buck and said it was someone else's responsibility. Ultimately, they pinned it on you, the justice minister, in terms of the law that needed to be dealt with, with respect to the Criminal Code. It's taken two years for us to get here.I suppose it's water under the bridge, so to speak. It's accepting that lives were lost because Canada took so long. Other jurisdictions managed to do a carve-out without this long, arduous process we have to engage in.Now we have this legislation before us, and there are still problems.Doctors Without Borders wrote and indicated they're deeply concerned with the legislation. In fact, they're saying they can't support it. They're saying that it's “incompatible with the level of flexibility and urgency required for delivering emergency humanitarian response.” They indicated that this legislation does not provide for a humanitarian exemption in the Criminal Code to remove any risk that their staff or their organization could be charged with a criminal offence for delivering medical care to a patient in a place where Canadian anti-terror laws apply.I would love to hear your response to that. Why could we not have brought in legislation to ensure that a humanitarian exemption is being applied?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768636076863617686362768636376863647686365DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1700)[English]First of all, I disagree with Doctors Without Borders' characterization. The law, as proposed, provides an extremely large degree of flexibility to the Minister of Public Safety to grant a humanitarian exemption, including for the kind of work Doctors Without Borders provides on the ground. I disagree quite strongly with their interpretation. I think this law is adequate to do that. I think it does, in fact, allow them an exemption from prosecution.Again, I'm not going to pass the buck, in the sense that I won't talk about things discussed in cabinet. That's a matter of cabinet confidence.The Canadian legal system is such that there are independent prosecutions undertaken by various Crowns across Canada—federal and provincial. There are independent investigations undertaken by police authorities. They are independent of me and the government. There's no way, as the Attorney General in the government, that I can tell a prosecutor to prosecute or not to prosecute. That is a power other countries have, like the United States, for example. They can carve it out. We can't carve it out in the same way. We needed a piece of legislation. We now have a piece of legislation. We have, I think, a good piece of legislation.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686366768636776863687686369JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English] Okay.It's still interesting to note that other countries were able to find carve-outs and we couldn't. We lost two years in that process, while there was urgent need for people who were dying.Now, with regard to the question around the legislation, what Doctors Without Borders is saying is that they would have to apply for a provision to do this work. What if they say no? Should they, then, not provide the medical care?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768637076863717686372DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1700)[English]The Minister of Public Safety—and, again, it's a question you can ask him—has undertaken to look at these applications expeditiously. We understand the needs that have arisen—AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686373JennyKwanVancouver EastSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire (Brandon—Souris, CPC): (1700)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I just want to add a few things to some of your comments that have already been said, Mr. Minister. Thank you for being here, by the way.Canadian humanitarian agencies have been calling for that legislation for quite some time. I'm deeply troubled that it took your government this long to introduce Bill C-41.There are millions of Afghans who are in desperate need of food and other supplies, critical supplies. Time is still of the essence. You must have known of the dire straits that Afghan women and children are currently in. This has been asked before, but in light of the fact that, as you say, the minister is going to be here shortly—we're not aware he's going to be here before at least the end of April—I'm going to ask you again. What's your excuse for taking so long to table a relatively straightforward piece of legislation? Don't you talk to the ministers?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76863777686378768637976863807686381SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1700)[English]Again, I'm not at liberty to disclose the kinds of things one discusses around the cabinet table. That's a matter of cabinet confidence.Mr. Larry Maguire: You were talking to him. Weren't you?Hon. David Lametti: I think the legal conclusion that's evident in this piece of legislation is that a specific law was needed, given the structures that are present in the Canadian system. As I said, they were brought in by Rob Nicholson—prosecutorial independence. I think they're a good thing, but that means I can't tell prosecutors when to exercise and how to exercise their discretion. Therefore—AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768638276863837686384LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1700)[English]What took them so long to bring the legislation in?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686385DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1700)[English]—we had to resort to a piece of legislation. The Minister of Public Safety has committed to moving expeditiously once this legislation is passed, and I hope you will pass this legislation quickly.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686386LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1700)[English]It's been years.When drafting this legislation, your government would have reviewed what other countries are doing to ensure their humanitarian agencies can deliver aid. As has been discussed earlier, they did.What other allied country has created a process for humanitarian groups to apply for government approval before delivering assistance to Afghans? Have you not talked to other countries to find out what kind of co-operation could take place there as well?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768638776863887686389DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1700)[English]Our officials have been looking at what happens in other countries, and I'll ask them to supplement my answer in a moment. However, what I will say is that, in the Canadian system, with independent criminal investigations, with independent prosecutions, we needed something that didn't rely on a simple carve-out because I can't direct prosecutors to prosecute or not. I can't direct the police to investigate or not. If there is a question of interpretation, it will be incumbent on those authorities to exercise that discretion.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76863907686391LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1705)[English]Here's a little different twist to the question that's already been asked.Joseph Belliveau, the executive director of Doctors Without Borders, stated that Bill C-41 is “unduly restrictive, and it should be replaced with a general humanitarian exemption.” There was a decision made by your government. I'm wondering why it decided to amend the Criminal Code rather than grant a humanitarian exemption.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76863927686393DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1705)[English]Granting a humanitarian exemption is still an amendment to the Criminal Code, first of all.Second, the fight against terrorism is still important. Quite frankly, if we had done that, certain parliamentarians would probably be angry, saying we've become soft on terrorism. We can't have that happen either. It is still important we track terrorist activities, including a government like the Taliban and including other groups around the world. This piece of legislation effects a very important balance.The fight against terrorism is still important, but the fight to provide humanitarian aid on the ground is also important. We have carved out a pretty good exemption between the two, using the Criminal Code, because that's what we had to do.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768639476863957686396LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1705)[English] We and Canadians certainly know that, Mr. Minister, and you've certainly been soft on trying to help the folks in Afghanistan who helped our troops get back here as well.It's important to note that the process for humanitarian agencies to seek this application to provide aid in Afghanistan is not contained within this legislation and will be determined later through regulations. I know you had a discussion on this with my colleague who was here just a few moments ago, but this, undoubtedly, will result in more delays.Can you confirm that work is being done drafting those regulations and that you are actively consulting with humanitarian agencies to ensure that the process is as efficient and straightforward as it possibly can be? When will these regulations be available?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768639776863987686399DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunRobertBrookfieldRobert-BrookfieldInterventionMr. Robert Brookfield: (1705)[English]To clarify, the bill does provide for the possibility of regulations, but the power of the Minister of Public Safety to issue authorizations is not restricted to the existing regulations. The Minister of Public Safety would have discretion to use that power without the need for regulations in the first place.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686401DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/92209Marie-FranceLalondeMarie-France-LalondeOrléansLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LalondeMarieFrance_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orléans, Lib.): (1705)[Translation]Mr. Minister, thank you very much for taking part in this committee meeting.I had the honour and privilege of being with you when Bill C‑41 was announced. It was very well received by the people who were there. It also shows how important cooperation is to the government, since your department is not the only one involved, as you so rightly said. In fact, several departments were involved in the collaborative effort that led to introducing Bill C‑41.[English]I know that we like to talk here about what's not, but let's not forget that of our commitment of the 40,000 there are close to 30,000 Afghans here in Canada currently Minister, I know that the Minister of International Development, during that particular conference, referred to how, since August 2021, we have been still providing humanitarian assistance in many forms through various organizations, such as the United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross. From that perspective, there may be individuals who could say that the law already did allow for humanitarian aid to be provided.Can you share some thoughts about that and the importance of Bill C-41 being brought in?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76864067686407768640876864097686410SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1705)[Translation]I will do the same as you and start in French.First, thank you for the question.With respect to the first part of your comments, you're right. It's not true that we haven't done anything for Afghanistan. We've worked a great deal with Afghanistan. We've already welcomed 30,000 of the 40,000 refugees we promised to take in. We've worked a lot with our allies and agencies on the ground to help people immigrate here or to provide assistance in other ways.(1710)[English]In a system where I can't dictate prosecutorial decisions and I can't dictate investigations, when to investigate or not, the only secure way to create an exemption for humanitarian aid on the ground, to the extent that it might touch on anti-terrorist financing, is to do what we've done here.There were a number of people advancing interpretations who said, “You don't even need to do this; it can be done.” That would rely on the discretion of individuals the government has no control over. At the end of the day, if it happens that someone decides to investigate, one prosecutor decides to go ahead, then they get angry with the government and ask, “Why did you let this happen?” It's independent.This is the way, in the Canadian structure of investigations, that we could do it. We have done it. I'm proud of the bill, and I think it will have a major impact on the ground.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768641376864147686415768641676864177686418Marie-FranceLalondeOrléansMarie-FranceLalondeOrléans//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/92209Marie-FranceLalondeMarie-France-LalondeOrléansLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LalondeMarieFrance_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Marie-France Lalonde: (1710)[Translation]Thank you very much for that response.I represent the Orleans community, which has strong historical ties to Afghanistan, not only in the community but also in members of the military, people who have mobilized to help the Afghan people throughout those 20 years.[English]I wanted to ask...and you sort of alluded to this. It's interesting how this conversation is happening here, because we're saying, “tough on crime” and “not tough on crime”.[Translation]A deep desire and sensitivity led us to this course of action, but we had to do it within certain parameters.[English]Could changing the Canadian law here undermine our ability to combat terrorism? I think that's very important and relevant in the context of the global situation.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76864197686420768642176864227686423DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1710)[English] No, I don't think it does, because the anti-terrorism laws—anti-terrorist financing laws, more particularly—remain in place. They remain the baseline, and it is only through the exceptional regime—the application to the minister and the ministerial exemption—that there's an exemption. That's critically important. You could easily see a situation—sadly, I have to say—where a group.... If we had gone with a larger basic exemption for all humanitarian work, where somebody under the guise of humanitarian work tries to circumvent the law and the anti-terrorism financing laws.... That's a very real possibility. We didn't choose that route, and I'm glad that we didn't.I think we will get the same positive impact for all of the same groups that are legitimately working on the ground in Afghanistan this way, without weakening the anti-terrorist financing laws—AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768642476864257686426Marie-FranceLalondeOrléansSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1710)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Minister, you tell us that Bill C‑41 is the solution. I am announcing that the Bloc Québécois will support you and will try to get this bill passed as quickly as possible. If necessary, we will try to negotiate amendments informally. That way, when it comes time to work in committee, things will move forward quickly if all parties agree.You seem surprised to be asked why it took so long for this bill to be introduced. Since earlier, your only answer to the committee has been that, in order to protect cabinet confidence, you can't reveal what goes on behind the scenes.If Bill C‑41 is the solution, that means it's been there all along, because nothing has changed since the problem was identified. When asked why it took so long, you tell the committee that it was because you were having discussions. So we infer it's your discussions that took a long time before you came up with this solution.Earlier, you yourself brought up U.N. Security Council Resolution 1373. You're the one who brought it up. You may say that you werren't in office at the time, but you were the one who touted the fact that, after Resolution 1373 was passed, the Liberal government of the day acted very quickly. If they were able to act quickly in 2001, I can't understand why it was any different after that.If the solution has been there all along, but it was your discussions that took time, does that mean the ministers in place in 2001 were much more competent than the current government?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768643076864317686432768643376864347686435SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1715)[Translation]We take our responsibilities seriously. We review and assess situations. We have come up with a solution that works within the Canadian infrastructure, if I can put it that way, and I'm proud of that.I'm very pleased to hear that you will be supporting Bill C‑41. Course, we are not averse to amendments proposed in good faith that might improve it. I will leave the conduct of the process to the Minister of Public Safety. That said, I think we're moving in the right direction and I thank you for your support.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76864397686440AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]It's a pleasure. I've been working on this from the start with my colleagues in opposition, so it would be a little crazy not to support this bill.However, you have yet to answer my question. If the solution has been there all along, I'd just like to understand why it took you 18 months to suggest it.AfghanistanForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76864417686442DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1715)[Translation]As I said, I'm not going to reveal the content of discussions we held within cabinet.AfghanistanForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686443AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]So it's because of your discussions that it's taken so long. That's what you're telling us.AfghanistanForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686444DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1715)[Translation]No. You're putting words in my mouth and that is not right.AfghanistanForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686445AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]It's because you won't say anything.AfghanistanForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686446DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1715)[Translation]It's just that I can't answer your question—AfghanistanForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686447AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1715)[Translation]If you won't say anything, then I'm going to put words in your mouth.AfghanistanForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686448DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1715)[Translation]…due to parliamentary principles that must be respected.AfghanistanForeign policyGovernment accountabilityHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686450SalmaZahidScarborough CentreAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1715)[English]Thank you.I want to point out one glaring piece. I know Canada provided humanitarian aid through international organizations. What we're talking about is the barrier for Canadian organizations, and that's why this is needed.Please don't conflate the two aspects, because I think it does a disservice to the Canadian organizations that are trying their very best to do this important humanitarian work. I wanted to point that out.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768645576864567686457SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1715)[English]That's precisely why we're here, Chair.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686458JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1715)[English]Precisely, but I think to suggest that “Oh, but we're already doing this, so why is there this anxiety?” it—AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686459DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1715)[English]No, I think you're misinterpreting what I said.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686460JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1715)[English]If I may finish with my time, Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Immigration made that comment and inferred that, and then you replied to that question. I just don't think that's helpful. Why we're here today is that we're talking about Canadian humanitarian groups that have been blocked from providing aid, and I think it's unfortunate to go down that road in this strange defence of inaction.What I would like to ask, Minister, on this question is this: Does this legislation apply to Canadian citizens working for non-Canadian organizations, such as UN agencies or other organizations?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersInternational organizationsTerrorism and terrorists768646676864677686468SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1715)[English] I can respond first to that comment because I think you've misinterpreted. Sadly, you've misinterpreted—and in good faith, I would imagine—what I said.What I said in response to my colleague was that we were doing what we could to help Afghan people through other international organizations. It wasn't meant to replace what could be done to help Canadian organizations. It was doing what we could do at the time in the face of a humanitarian crisis. We did that, and that's all I meant. I have worked in good faith to try to bring forth this current piece of legislation and I will continue to do that—again, to help Canadians.With respect to Canadians who might be working for other international organizations, my understanding is that they would already be covered by the country of that exemption, but I would ask Robert or Glenn to add to that.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersInternational organizationsTerrorism and terrorists768646976864707686471JennyKwanVancouver EastSalmaZahidScarborough CentreRobertBrookfieldRobert-BrookfieldInterventionMr. Robert Brookfield: (1720)[English]The answer is most likely that through, as the minister said, their own mechanisms for international organizations they would be covered, but if a Canadian citizen abroad, for whoever they're working for, wished to apply, they would be able to apply. The legislation applies to Canadian persons and organizations. AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersInternational organizationsTerrorism and terrorists7686494JennyKwanVancouver EastBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]Thank you.Madam Chair, from what I understand, the Attorney General is the chief law officer of the Crown, which means he represents the Crown and not individual departments or agencies of the government and, therefore, seeks to protect the interests of the whole government. For the Attorney General, I want to better understand how delegations of authority work in the department.For those who might be listening, the delegation of authority is an official process that defines exactly who has the authority to make certain decisions, such as committing to spending money or issuing citizenship and that sort of thing. Generally, a minister, from what I understand, delegates authority down to the deputy minister, who in turn might delegate it down further to another senior staff.Minister, is it the practice of this government for a minister in one department to delegate authority to a political staff member in another department?AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyInterdepartmental relations76864957686496768649776864987686499RobertBrookfieldDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1720)[English]The Attorney General's role is different. I act as the chief law officer, so in this capacity I will give legal opinions to the government, although I also can give legal opinions to the government as the Minister of Justice, and I have a number of lawyers who work in that capacity. As the Attorney General, I am the named person on every piece of litigation with the government and against the government, so in that capacity, we will make litigation decisions. I will make litigation decisions, or those lawyers who are working in that line of authority will make litigation decisions. We work collaboratively, but I guess technically I'm responsible for all of them as Attorney General.AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyInterdepartmental relations7686500BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]Do you not know how the delegation of authority works in the government, then?AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyInterdepartmental relations7686501DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1720)[English]I do know how the delegation of authority works in the government, but you asked me in my role of Attorney General. AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyInterdepartmental relations7686502BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]Okay.Then can you comment on whether it's normal in this government for a minister in one department to delegate their authority to a political staff member in another department?AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyInterdepartmental relations76865037686504DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1720)[English]I'm not going to answer a hypothetical question. What I can say is that there are lawyers from the Department of Justice who are embedded in a number of different departments across government, a number of different ministries. They are still technically under my govern, if you will, but they respond to particular ministers in that regard.AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyInterdepartmental relations76865057686506BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English] I understand. Let's try this a slightly different way. Is there a mechanism within Canadian law to extend ministerial delegations of authority to people such as members of Parliament or senators?AfghanistanCabinet ministersDelegation of authorityForeign policy7686507DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1720)[English]It depends on what you're doing. If you're asking me, as Attorney General, if I can delegate the authority to prosecute, we've already hived that off as an independent prosecution service in Canada. We have also hived off the ability to undertake criminal investigations. We've given that power to the police.In terms of my portfolio, these things have already been done. As I said, they were done by a Conservative government. I am very strongly in favour of their having been done. I think we have a better system because of it. We have a much more neutral and much less political system because of it.AfghanistanCabinet ministersDelegation of authorityForeign policy76865087686509BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]I guess what I'm getting at here is the situation with Senator McPhedran, where the Minister of Immigration and the Minister of National Defence, who hold the authorities of those departments, were supposedly, allegedly, used by Senator McPhedran. What I'm trying to find out is whether there's any mechanism in the government for that delegation of authority to somehow end up in a senator's hands.AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policySenate and senators7686510DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1720)[English]I had nothing to do with that situation. I'm not going to comment on it.AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policySenate and senators7686511BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1720)[English]I'm not accusing you of anything. That's why I'm asking a more general question. Is it possible, in your knowledge of the law and how it works in the government, for that authority to be delegated in such a way from one department to another like that?AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyInterdepartmental relations76865127686513DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1720)[English]Global Affairs Canada, I know, was issuing certain documents in order to help people get out of Afghanistan. My understanding is that there were other false documents that were also circulated.AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyInterdepartmental relations7686514BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105598BradRedekoppBrad-RedekoppSaskatoon WestConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RedekoppBrad_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Brad Redekopp: (1725)[English]Is it possible for the senator to have had authorization from any department to do anything that would be in the delegation of authority?AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policySenate and senators7686515DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1725)[English]Again, I wasn't party or privy to any of those conversations.AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policySenate and senators7686516BradRedekoppSaskatoon WestBradRedekoppSaskatoon West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Surrey—Newton, Lib.): (1725)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Madam Chair, I would love to thank the honourable minister for appearing before the committee. It has always been an honour to work with him in his role as a minister and in his role as a parliamentary secretary before that.Madam Chair, the Special Committee on Afghanistan has done great work. Members of all different stripes came together and made those recommendations. Those recommendations are being put in place.I have some questions before I give the minister plenty of time to respond to any of the issues he wanted to speak to but was cut off from during other remarks. First, how is this legislation better than the status quo? That is what I would like to hear and have Canadians listen to.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686522768652376865247686525SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1725)[English]Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal, for that question. Again, it's a pleasure to work with you, as well, although our time way back in international trade ages both of us, probably me more than you.The status quo creates uncertainty. It creates legal risk for Canadian humanitarian organizations working on the ground in Afghanistan, because it would rely on the discretion of both police investigators and prosecutors to not prosecute them under the fairly clear terms of the Criminal Code of Canada. While one would hope, I suppose, in an ideal world, that discretion would be exercised in a way that benefits Canadian humanitarian organizations, one can't guarantee it. The organizations were looking for certainty. They want to be able to say to their workers, the people who are collaborating with them and the people who are working for them on the ground that they will be protected from being prosecuted under the Canadian anti-terrorist financing regime. What this law does is give certainty. How? It does that by allowing an organization to apply to the Minister of Public Safety for an exemption from the provisions of the Criminal Code. That happens, and hopefully, it will be done. Hopefully, the law will be passed quickly. Hopefully, the organizations are already preparing their applications to the Minister of Public Safety, and then immediately they'll be able to get that approval, an exemption, and they'll be able to do the good work that they do on the ground without fear of prosecution in Canada.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686526768652776865287686529SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1725)[English] Minister, you mentioned dealing with terrorism when it comes to this legislation. Could changing Canadian law here undermine our ability to combat terrorism?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686530DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1725)[English]No. As I mentioned to Madame Lalonde, I think maintaining the anti-terrorist financing legislation as the baseline prevents, frankly, the potential for the abuse of a larger carve-out for all humanitarian work, because it allows the organization in question to apply and it allows the minister to look at the work that is proposed to be done on the ground, all the while keeping the anti-terrorist financing legislation in place so that it can be appropriately monitored.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686531SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1725)[English]Thank you.Minister, there were many instances in which you were cut off when you wanted to make remarks. Would you like to take the minute and a half that I have left—AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists76865327686533DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1725)[English]—to address anything that you haven't addressed?AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists7686535SalmaZahidScarborough CentreDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1725)[English]You've been corrected by the chair.Thank you. It is a good piece of legislation. It is a compromise that respects the structure of Canadian investigations, prosecutions and the Canadian Criminal Code. It allows us to allow that humanitarian work to take place, and it allows those anti-terrorism financing laws to remain as the baseline.I hope this committee will support the passage of this legislation. I hope all parties will support the passage of this legislation so we can allow those good organizations to do their work as soon as possible.AfghanistanC-41, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other ActsForeign policyHumanitarian assistance and workersTerrorism and terrorists768653676865377686538SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Honourable Anita Anand (Minister of National Defence): (1735)[English]Good afternoon. Thank you for the invitation to appear today to update you on the Department of National Defence's response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan.Under Operation Aegis, the Canadian Armed Forces responded swiftly to support federal efforts to evacuate Canadian citizens and Afghans eligible for resettlement, providing strategic airlift capabilities to help bring them to safety. In the final report, National Defence is implicated in recommendations 1, 2 and 18. Today, I will discuss the actions that we have taken to respond to each.First of all, recommendation 1 calls for the government to re-examine our lessons learned from our missions in Afghanistan and to apply those in future planning and response. The Canadian Armed Forces conducted a number of exercises, at all levels, after Operation Aegis ended to identify areas for improvement in relevant policies, programs and operations. As a result, our coordination mechanisms have grown stronger, and we have built on the success of our strategic airlift operations in Afghanistan, as well as in co-operation with allies and partners, which was so critical to that success.(1740)[Translation]We see this in the work that continues today in Ukraine, as the Canadian Armed Forces provide technical airlift capabilities to support military aid donations in Europe.[English]We have deployed the Royal Canadian Air Force to Prestwick, Scotland, a hub from which our aviators have transported over seven million pounds of Ukraine-bound military aid.The second recommendation calls for the federal government to establish “a structure for interdepartmental coordination” to respond to future crises, with Global Affairs Canada as the lead.National Defence participates in the interdepartmental task force that brings together the departments from across government implicated in a given crisis to enable a timely, effective and comprehensive whole-of-government response. We have seen time and time again that, during international crises, the Canadian Armed Forces rise to the challenge and provide critical capabilities for the government and the country. I thank them from the bottom of my heart.[Translation]But we know these are just one part of the broader toolkit to address complex global issues.[English]We will continue working closely with Global Affairs Canada and collaborating with our other government partners to respond to emergencies at home and abroad.Finally, recommendation 18 calls for Global Affairs “to assemble a whole-of-government team” to help bring Afghans to safety.Since the outset of the crisis in Afghanistan, National Defence has worked closely with other government departments to bring as many Afghans as possible to safety. We continue to support IRCC with their goal of resettling 40,000 Afghans by 2024.[Translation]This includes validating applications in support of IRCC's new policy to help reunite former language and cultural advisors with members of their extended family outside Canada.[English]In conclusion, Canadian Armed Forces members have shared their stories about what Operation Aegis meant to them.Corporal Mackenzie Birch recalls evacuating a child on the second-to-last flight out of Kabul in August. The child carried by his mother was exhausted and drained of emotion. Many months later, Corporal Birch saw that child once again, this time on a flight from Toronto to Vancouver. The young boy was one of many Afghan refugees on the plane who were headed to Vancouver to build a new life.[Translation]Corporal Birch felt so much optimism seeing that child who months earlier could barely manage a smile, but was now happy and full of hope for a better, brighter future.[English] Corporal Birch realized he had become part of the story of Operation Aegis, and part of the effort and sacrifice of thousands of Canadians and Afghans over the past 20 years: the CANSOFCOM members helping the vulnerable and the elderly; the aircraft officers working tirelessly to help the scared passengers; and the medical team tending to those who needed it most. That is the story of Operation Aegis.That connection is what drives us to keep working hard, every day, to advance peace and prosperity around the world.Thank you so much.AfghanistanCanadian ForcesDepartment of National DefenceEvacuationForeign policyInterdepartmental relationsMilitary operations and eventsRefugees7686551768655276865537686554768655576865567686557768655876865597686560768656176865627686563768656476865657686566768656776865687686569SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner (Calgary Nose Hill, CPC): (1740)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you, Minister.I want to provide some context for my questions. My husband is an American combat veteran, and he served in Afghanistan. It was something to watch his reaction to the fall of Afghanistan, from my campaign office, while many of my constituents were pouring in with requests for Afghans' evacuation and while the government was in caretaker mode. That's something.... I'd like to get you on the record that it's not a situation our country should be placed in again.AfghanistanForeign policy76865737686574768657576865767686577SalmaZahidScarborough CentreAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1745)[English]First of all, thank you for telling me this very personal and emotional part of what you were experiencing in 2021. Certainly, I knew your spouse served, but I didn't know many details, so thank you for sharing that with me. I thank him for continuing to step up. I think it's a global service that people are actually doing.AfghanistanForeign policy7686578MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]Going forward, though, has anything been put in place, so that, if we have another duty to evacuate a country, there would be advice given to the PMO, perhaps, when they were considering triggering an election? In terms of recommendation 8, has there been any formal advice that, perhaps, it wasn't a great idea to go to an election, knowing the country was about to fall to the Taliban?AfghanistanForeign policy76865797686580AnitaAnandHon.OakvilleAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1745)[English]I can only say that it was an extremely difficult and unpredictable situation, and nobody recognized that Kabul would fall so quickly.There are so many lessons to be learned. Indeed, after every operation, the Canadian Armed Forces takes care to evaluate lessons to be learned and—AfghanistanForeign policy76865817686582MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]Was going to an election a lesson learned?AfghanistanForeign policy7686583AnitaAnandHon.OakvilleAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1745)[English]This was a time when I was not in the role of minister so, of course.... I had just, as you know so well, been procuring vaccines for the country, but I will turn to my deputy minister—AfghanistanForeign policy7686584MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]That's okay. Thank you.I'll ask a question broadly.Are you aware of anyone in your department, or in the previous minister's office, who delegated authority to any parliamentarians, on behalf of your department or any other government agency, to issue visa facilitation letters?AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees768658576865867686587AnitaAnandHon.OakvilleAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1745)[English]No, I am not aware of any such activity. These—AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7686588MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]Would anyone in the minister's office have the authority to delegate that authority to a parliamentarian?AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees7686589AnitaAnandHon.OakvilleAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1745)[English]I do not believe so.The facilitation letters were only issued by GAC and IRCC, using official government email addresses sent directly to applicants. There's—as you know—an ongoing investigation, but my office and I have no special knowledge of this.AfghanistanDelegation of authorityForeign policyPassports and visasRefugees76865907686591MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]Thank you.The last time you appeared on this issue—I think it was several months ago, at the special committee—there were still, by all accounts, several thousand Afghans with bona fide connections who served in our country's efforts in Afghanistan and who had not been evacuated.I reviewed the federal budget, yesterday. Why wasn't there significant additional funding for the Canadian Armed Forces, particularly given there was clearly a capacity gap in this area?AfghanistanCanadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment assistance768659276865937686594AnitaAnandHon.OakvilleAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1745)[English] The last time I appeared at this committee we did discuss the goal of IRCC and our government to bring at least 40,000 vulnerable Afghans to Canada. We have now made even more progress towards that goal, with 28,000 Afghans who can now call Canada home.This progress is going well. It's an ambitious target. It is one that we take very seriously, and we'll bring as many Afghans to Canada as quickly and safely as possible. That remains our priority.AfghanistanCanadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment assistance76865957686596MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]How many of those persons did we have to rely on other nations or allied nations to evacuate for us?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7686597AnitaAnandHon.OakvilleAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1745)[English]The evacuation, as I said, was very tense. It was moving very quickly, and we worked very hard to secure the air bridge and to bring out as many Afghans as possible.AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policyRefugees7686598MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillMichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71902MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Michelle-RempelGarnerCalgary Nose HillConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RempelMichelle_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Michelle Rempel Garner: (1745)[English]Thank you.Again, on the federal budget, given the geopolitical situation, it has a glaring omission in terms of any sort of significant increase in funding to address our capacity gap.Why weren't you able to secure that funding with your cabinet colleagues for our armed forces? Particularly given the outcome of this report, it's clear that we need more resources. Why isn't that in there?AfghanistanCanadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment assistance768659976866007686601AnitaAnandHon.OakvilleAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1750)[English]I'd like to take you to the fact that we put on the table almost $40 billion for NORAD modernization and continental defence last June, in addition to $8 billion in the budget of 2022, in addition to a 70% increase in defence spending beginning in 2017 under “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, and the fact that we are undertaking—AfghanistanCanadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment assistance7686602MichelleRempel GarnerHon.Calgary Nose HillSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1750)[English]—a defence policy update and we will have that—AfghanistanCanadian ForcesForeign policyGovernment assistance7686604SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88515FayçalEl-KhouryFayçal-El-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ElKhouryFayçal_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Fayçal El-Khoury (Laval—Les Îles, Lib.): (1750)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Madam Minister, welcome to our committee. Thank you for all the great work you do in the department.As you know, the situation in Afghanistan is complex. Why? It's because peacemaking and peacebuilding missions are not possible like they were in Syria after 2014 with the U.N.Can you tell us more about that and about your department's role in that, in particular?AfghanistanForeign policy7686608768660976866107686611SalmaZahidScarborough CentreAnitaAnandHon.Oakville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96081AnitaAnandHon.Anita-AnandOakvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AnandAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Anita Anand: (1750)[Translation]Thank you for the question.Of course, it's very important to do a review of missions and operations. As I said, the situation on the ground in summer 2021 was very challenging. We now have ambitious goals and we've made significant progress toward achieving that. The goal of resettling at least 40,000 Afghan nationals to Canada as quickly and safely as possible remains our priority.That is the situation for all of our operations. No matter what operation or country we are talking to, the question is always what we can do in that specific situation.For further comment, I will turn it over to the chief of the defence staff.AfghanistanForeign policy7686612768661376866147686615FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesWayne D.EyreWayne D.EyreWayneD--EyreInterventionGen Wayne D. Eyre (Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence): (1750)[Translation]Thank you very much, Madam Minister. I will say a few words about peacekeeping missions in the context of Afghanistan.I must admit that the situation in Afghanistan is too complex for a traditional peacekeeping mission, because we need the approval of all parties to carry out a mission like that. I myself have been deployed a few times to Afghanistan, and I can tell you that it was not possible.AfghanistanDepartment of National DefenceForeign policy768661676866177686618AnitaAnandHon.OakvilleFayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88515FayçalEl-KhouryFayçal-El-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ElKhouryFayçal_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Fayçal El-Khoury: (1750)[Translation]If I may, I will ask General Eyre a question to better illustrate the situation.General, you served as chief of the defence staff in 2021, so you're uniquely positioned to talk about the events leading up to the fall of Kabul, the airlift operation and the experience of Canadian Armed Forces personnel on the ground.Could you give us a sense of what happened? How did you respond? What were the challenges? What lessons did you learn there as chief of the defence staff?AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy768661976866207686621Wayne D.EyreWayne D.EyreWayne D.EyreWayneD--EyreInterventionGen Wayne D. Eyre: (1750)[Translation]On May 9, 2022, I sat before the Special Committee on Afghanistan and testified with some emotion about my pride in our personnel for what they had accomplished during that mission.I will continue in English, given all the technical terms.(1755)[English] From our perspective, we had not had a sizable—or any—military force on the ground since 2014 when we withdrew from Afghanistan. In fact, I was at ISAF headquarters in Kabul when we lowered the flag. For a period of seven years, we had no sizable military presence there, and our ability to project force across the globe into a highly contested environment with our air capabilities, with our special operations capabilities and with our global signals capability, and to extract as many Afghans as we did, speaks to the ability, the passion and the proficiency of our members. Madam Chair, I'm very proud of what our members accomplished in some extremely difficult conditions. We've learned and we've continued to apply the lessons over the last number of years. AfghanistanEvacuationForeign policy76866227686623768662476866257686626FayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesFayçalEl-KhouryLaval—Les Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88515FayçalEl-KhouryFayçal-El-KhouryLaval—Les ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ElKhouryFayçal_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Fayçal El-Khoury: (1755)[Translation]Madam Minister, this report includes many recommendations to implement special emergency measures within the various departments involved in this crisis. Chief among these recommendations is the establishment of an emergency unit.What do you think about this sort of thing?AfghanistanForeign policy76866277686628Wayne D.EyreSalmaZahidScarborough CentreINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE