Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:00

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you, Chair.
Let me quickly thank the fine public servants who are with me. I'm accompanied by Andrew Marsland, senior assistant deputy minister, tax policy branch; Nick Leswick, assistant deputy minister, economic and fiscal policy branch; Evelyn Dancey, from the economic development and corporate finance branch; Soren Halverson, financial sector policy branch; and Katharine Rechico, from the international trade and finance branch.
We have brought a full court press.
I'll just make some opening remarks then I'm happy to answer your questions.
Protecting the health and safety of Canadians is the government's top priority. As you know, last week, I released the government's fall economic statement for 2020, entitled “Supporting Canadians and Fighting COVID-19”.
The second wave of the pandemic—
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Tamara Jansen - 16:03
Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:03
Tamara Jansen - 16:03
Tamara Jansen - 16:03

Lib. (ON)
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The second wave of the pandemic is aggressive. The winter will be challenging, but there is reason to be optimistic. Safe and effective vaccines are coming soon, and we have a plan to face the months ahead and kick-start the economy.
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Tamara Jansen - 16:03
Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:05

Lib. (ON)
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The fall economic statement details our plan to protect Canadian lives, Canadian jobs and Canadian businesses, and we are moving quickly to deliver on our commitments.
The legislation I tabled last week, Bill C-14, proposes to move forward with several urgent COVID-19 related measures in the fall economic statement that will help Canadians get through this pandemic and strengthen our health response.
For example, the legislation would provide low- and middle-income families who are entitled to the Canada child benefit with additional support of up to $1,200 for each child under the age of six in 2021.
It would also help young Canadians by eliminating, for one year, the interest on their repayment of the federal portion of the Canada student loans and Canada apprentice loans.
Bill C-14 also sets out up to $505.7 million in 2021 to help long-term care facilities prevent the spread of COVID-19. Under the bill, $400 million in additional funding will also go to various measures including support for mental health, substance abuse, COVID-19 testing and telemedicine.
I hope all members will consider this legislation with the urgency it deserves. I know that we all know that Canadians are counting on us.
Mr. Chair, last week's fall economic statement also outlined a growth plan to jump-start Canada's economy once the coronavirus is under control.
The government will invest between 3% and 4% of Canada's gross domestic product, or GDP, over three years. The government will provide further details on its recovery plan in the months ahead leading up to budget 2021. The plan will be based on creating good jobs for the middle class.
This, Mr. Chair, is needed economic policy and this is smart economic policy. One of the lessons of the 2008-09 global financial crisis is that withdrawing fiscal support too soon after a deep downturn can hamper growth for years afterwards. Our government will not repeat that mistake.
That said, our stimulus, our growth plan, will be time limited and carefully targeted. Fiscal guardrails will help us establish when the stimulus will be wound down. When the economy has recovered, time-limited measures will be withdrawn and Canada will resume its prudent and responsible fiscal path.
Uncertainties about the timing of the pandemic and global economic developments mean that the timeline for recovery should not be locked into a rigid, predetermined calendar. Instead, the government will track progress against several related indicators, recognizing that no one data point is a perfect representation of the health of the economy. These indicators include the employment rate, total hours worked and the level of unemployment in the economy.
Mr. Chair, I'm very glad the committee is beginning its consultations. The federal government will launch our own pre-budget consultations in the new year. We all very much look forward to hearing from Canadians about their priorities as we design our growth plan.
I look forward to hearing Canadians' ideas on what we can do to support families and businesses, kick-start the economy and keep Canada's strong fiscal position.
We Canadians have faced adversity in the past. We've faced tough winters, and we have always emerged stronger than before. I know that we will this time too.
I would be pleased now to answer your questions.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:10
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:10

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you for the question.
Let me point out that jobs recovery in Canada, while incomplete, has actually been strong, in that 80% of the jobs lost in the depth of the coronavirus recession have recovered, and that compares to just around 60% in the United States. Canadians are going back to work, and I congratulate them.
On the tax front, Mr. Chair, let me also point out that we have frozen the level of EI contributions very much in recognition of the fact that the Canadian economy needs some work, and when it comes to groceries—
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:11
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:11

Lib. (ON)
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Let me just say that when it comes to groceries, one of the reasons I singled out in my opening remarks the Canada child benefit was that we are very aware of the additional support that some families need.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:12

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as you know, we have announced some additional taxes to level the playing field, such as the introduction of GST/HST on all Internet providers. I think that's fair for Canadians companies. It's the right thing to do.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:12
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:12

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I think it is quite wrong to use the term “fleecing Canadians” when it comes to the taxes we pay to contribute to our society and to our communities. As the member knows, we announced the introduction of GST/HST—
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:13
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:13

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, we said what we had to say about tax policy. In the fall economic statement, we committed to introducing taxes on vacant property owned by foreign residents—
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:14

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, we have outlined very carefully, and I believe very prudently, our plans on the borrowing limit. We believe the prudent level is $1.8 trillion.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:14

Lib. (ON)
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Actually, Mr. Chair, it's an inexact question, because we are not proposing to borrow that amount of money. We are simply proposing to raise the limit. because that's the prudent thing to do.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:14

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, actually, that's not the case at all. A prudent government always creates buffers and creates fiscal space, but as the member knows, there is a very clear difference between borrowing authority and the amount the government has actually borrowed.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:15

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I did not say that the government didn't need the borrowing authority. What I said quite clearly is that there is a clear difference between borrowing authority and the amount the government actually borrows.
As for supporting this legislation or not, it's up to each member of the House to vote as they choose. I believe this is a prudent path that will support Canadians.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:16
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:16

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, the Bank of Canada is an independent institution. Its independence is one of the key reasons for the strength of the Canadian economy. I think the Bank of Canada is accountable to the people of Canada.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:16
Annie Koutrakis - 16:16

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you for your question.
I would like to first thank my fellow member for her hard work.
We all know the government and Canadians are doing a lot to build a resilient economy and get back on their feet, even as we deal with the pandemic. We also know, however, that, despite all that we are accomplishing, the pandemic has created a recession.
Earlier I said that 80% of the jobs lost have already been recovered. While that is a good thing, 640,000 people who lost their jobs because of the pandemic are still out of work. That is why we need a growth plan. The government must invest in the economy to ensure a robust and strong recovery. Let me reassure all the members: our primary target is jobs.
It is the government's responsibility to reassure Canadians and make sure they know we will continue to work for them, so that every Canadian who had a job before the pandemic has one after the pandemic. For that reason, we announced a growth plan that will invest $70 billion to $100 billion, as the member said.
I would be pleased to work with the committee on the plan.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:20
Michael McLeod - 16:20

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you very much for the questions. I'll start with the second then move on to the first.
I do want to thank the deputy—I'm looking at you on the screen right now—for his hard work representing the north. I think we are all aware that the north faces particular challenges always, but especially now in fighting the coronavirus.
In terms of cost-sharing programs and government programs to support the north in the fight against the coronavirus, I'm really glad to be able to say that the Northwest Territories received $30.7 million to support a range of measures that the territories have put in place to protect northerners. This includes, critically, the isolation centres, which are expensive but have—and I will be interested in the member's point of view—been, I believe, a critical element in the defence of the Northwest Territories against the coronavirus. Overall, in the fall economic statement we were able to say that the government has provided $272 million to northern communities and businesses.
Let me just say quickly on housing that it is a key area and it's something that we very much support. We realize there is an acute need in the north. The coronavirus, which of course requires us to be able to have space, has drawn particular attention to the housing need and the housing gap in the north, and as the member knows, our government has also committed to a very strong program to support rental housing construction across the country.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:23
Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:23

Lib. (ON)
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The short answer is yes, absolutely. I can share the details if—
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:23

Lib. (ON)
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We are working on a program like that right now. We understand the crucial role of the aerospace sector in Canada. It drives job creation and Canada's export market. Our government is convinced that we need a plan to support growth, and the aerospace sector will most certainly be a part of the economic recovery plan.
We all agree that Canada needs to transition to a green economy, and helping the aerospace sector make that transition will be absolutely necessary. We are working on that with Minister Navdeep Bains.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:25

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you, not only for your question, but also for all the information and advice you shared.
These are unprecedented times, so it's extremely important and useful to talk to our counterparts in other parts of the world regularly. Yesterday, I spoke with France's finance minister during a G7 finance ministers' meeting.
You're right, Mr. Ste-Marie. We are looking at France's and Germany's growth plans, and we are studying them closely. There are always things we can learn, and there may be a few things they can learn from us as well.
During yesterday's discussion between Canada and France, we talked about the green shift and shared ideas. We have a lot in common, so we should work together closely.
I will just add that I wholeheartedly agree that we need to think about clean growth as we develop the growth plan. That approach is very appropriate for the aerospace industry. I also agree that Canada's aerospace sector is very well-positioned, as the member mentioned.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:29
Peter Julian - 16:30

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you very much for the question.
I do want to thank the member opposite for his advocacy for Canadian working families and for Canadian workers. I know that it is a very sincere concern.
Let me say a couple of things about the wage subsidy. The wage subsidy can, by very clear and specific design, only be used to pay employees. That money cannot be used for any other purpose. That is very important for Canadians to know, and that's something that the government needs to be very careful about and is very careful about.
The design of the wage subsidy was to encourage as many companies as possible to keep as many Canadians on the payroll as possible. So far, the wage subsidy has kept almost four million Canadians on the job. It has kept them employed. I think that is very important.
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Peter Julian - 16:32

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you again very much for the question.
As the member opposite knows, in designing these COVID programs, we had to balance, and we continue to have to balance, the need to get the money and the support out there to keep as many people as possible in their jobs—which is our first and clear priority—with the need for compliance, audits and rules. We're always trying to strike that balance, and I believe that with the wage subsidy, we've done that.
I do want to emphasize for the member opposite, but also for any companies who are listening, that the wage subsidy must be used to pay workers. That is very clear, and we expect companies to comply with that policy.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:34
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:34

Lib. (ON)
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As the member knows, I neither have a crystal ball nor am I the Governor of the Bank of Canada.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:34

Lib. (ON)
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We were clear in the fall economic statement and in our printed documents that 10-year and longer bonds make up 50% of the issuance in 2019-20. They're planned to make up 29% of the issuance in 2020-21.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:35

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I am in no way contradicting the data. In fact, the numbers I am citing come from table A2.2 from the fall economic statement. As I said, what that table shows is the reality, which is that 10-year and longer bonds make up 15% of the 2019-20 issuance. Our intention, our target, is that they should make up 29% of the 2020-21 issuance.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:36
Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:36

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, we were clear in the fall economic statement on our plan to push out along the curve, and that is a prudent plan. It's something that we have signalled clearly to markets, and that was an important objective of the fall economic statement.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:37

Lib. (ON)
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I have been clear, Mr. Chair, about our government's intentions of moving to longer maturities.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:37

Lib. (ON)
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Let me first just take issue, Mr. Chair, with the little slur there implicit in the “even the CBC” reports.
As a former journalist, let me just say that the CBC is a fantastic news organization. I think it contributes hugely to the national fabric and the public discourse in Canada, so I couldn't let that pass.
When it comes to the information members of Parliament feel is necessary for them to be comfortable supporting our government's measures, it's going to be up to each member to make—
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Tamara Jansen - 16:38
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:38

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, our government absolutely understands and values the importance of transparency, and we seek to release all the information we can. I think people also understand that a tremendous job is being done by the CRA in supporting Canadians and Canadian businesses—
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:39
Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:40

Lib. (ON)
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That's a long yes or no.
Just to be clear, Mr. Chair, the member is making some category confusions here. The WE Charity, after all, never did receive the government's support.
We published detailed breakdowns for every period of the wage subsidy. That's the right thing to do, and we'll continue to do that, Mr. Chair.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:40
Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:41

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Let me start by saying one thing about the Canadian banking system. We have just been through and we are still in a deep economic crisis, our greatest crisis since the Great Depression. One of the things that our country has been relying on to get through the crisis is a sound and stable banking system. As a reporter based in New York during the 2008-2009 financial crisis, I was able to observe the strength and the stability of the Canadian banking system, which really shone compared with other banking systems, such as the U.S. and the British banking systems, to take two examples. That's actually a strength for our country.
Having said that, I do agree with the member from the NDP that it is really important, particularly given the uneven impact of this financial crisis—it has hit the most vulnerable the hardest—that everyone pay their fair share. That's why our government introduced concrete measures in the fall economic statement last week to limit the stock option deduction for people working at big companies. That's a significant and important step, and I'm glad that we were able to take it.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:43
Peter Fragiskatos - 16:43

Lib. (ON)
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I think all of us could ask that question.
Let me first of all reassure all the Canadian businesses listening to us right now that the government has made clear that the wage subsidy and the rent support will be in place until next summer. We want businesses to have that certainty and to have that confidence.
Let me also remind people that in the fall economic statement, we committed to raising the wage subsidy back to 75%.
I do think it's important for us to appreciate that we are all working in an environment with a great deal of uncertainty. That's why, when we announced our intention to put in place a growth plan, we were very clear that we would be guided by fiscal guardrails, and those would be employment, unemployment and hours worked. We are committed as a government to doing our job until Canadians have their jobs back.
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Peter Fragiskatos - 16:46

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you for the question. I think it's really, ultimately, the heart of everything we're talking about and everything our government needs to do.
I want to talk for one minute about scarring. As I mentioned earlier in my testimony, there was a G7 finance ministers meeting yesterday morning. One of the things that many of us reflected on was the experience of 2008-09. Economies experienced scarring, which made it harder for those economies to rebound after the immediate shock had passed. That historic experience is one of the reasons our government is so committed right now to supporting Canadian businesses and Canadian families. We know that if we do our job now effectively, Canada will be in a much stronger position to rebound once the vaccines have arrived and we're able to fully reopen the economy.
I very much agree with the direction of the question. I think what we need to focus on then, and begin doing our work on now—and I look forward to the committee doing this work—is to work on a growth plan that does two things. One, it immediately has projects and programs that help our country get back to work as quickly as possible and that help to close the output gap. We also need to be thinking about those projects and programs also contributing to our country's long-term growth. I think, and I am confident, that together we can do that.
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Peter Fragiskatos - 16:48
Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:48

Lib. (ON)
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As I said, we understand how important the aerospace sector is. It must be a part of our growth plan, and it will be. We also talked about the importance of the green shift, which extends to every sector of the economy, including the aerospace sector. That means it must be a part of the green shift, and it will be. I believe that answers your question.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:50

Lib. (ON)
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I have the utmost respect for the member, who also asked me the question by email. I want to thank him for that. However, today is not the right time to announce the spring 2021 budget. We just presented the fall economic statement 2020, so we'll have to wait a bit before announcing the details of the next budget.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:50
Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:50

Lib. (ON)
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Thank you for your ideas.
You mentioned aluminum, another very important industry for Quebec and Canada. It can and must be a part of the plan. I think we should all highlight the fact that Canada produces the greenest aluminum in the world. We need to press home that advantage to promote our exports, especially products made with our green aluminum.
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Gabriel Ste-Marie - 16:52
Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:54

Lib. (ON)
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Okay. Well, a minute seems like a long time, but there were lots of ideas in there.
Let me first talk about the international Internet giants. As the member from the NDP pointed out, our government committed, in the fall economic statement—and this is something we will do—to implement the GST/HST on multinational digital companies. This is a big deal, and it's an important move by the government. It will raise money for the government, and that's important.
From my perspective, it will do something else equally important, which is level the playing field between Canadian and international companies that are providing those services. I'm very glad that we're going forward and doing this.
The member asked another really important question, which is about international companies, particularly the digital giants that do significant business in Canada and do not pay corporate tax on the business that they do here. This is really a pressing issue. Canada always prefers multilateral collaborative solutions. It is the best way to work with our partners around the world, and so we are working with our partners through the OECD to reach an agreement on a tax approach. That being said, we announced last Monday that failing an agreement on a multilateral approach on taxing the Internet giants, Canada will move ahead unilaterally in January 2022.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:56
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:56

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as I said earlier, I am a very strong believer in the importance that the independence of the Bank of Canada plays in our economy and in our financial system. I would urge members to ask questions pertaining to the Bank of Canada of the Bank of Canada.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:57

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I want to be very clear with all members of this committee of the importance of an independent central bank in the functioning of the Canadian economy. I also want to be clear that it is an undermining of our economy to be raising questions in the minds of Canadians—
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:57

Lib. (ON)
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—about the independence of the Bank of Canada.
Yes, that is not responsible behaviour.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:57
Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:57

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, the Bank of Canada is ably and independently run, and perhaps members of this committee would like to invite representatives of the bank to come and speak to the committee and answer your questions.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:58
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:58

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I cannot emphasize too emphatically the importance that our government attaches and that I attach to the independence of the Bank of Canada and—
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Mr. Chair—
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: —I will always speak out against efforts to undermine that or cast doubt on the independence of this critical Canadian institution. Canadians trust the bank, and they're right to do so.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:58
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:59

Lib. (ON)
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I thought the chair had turned the floor over to me, and I would simply like to endorse our chairman's comments that the independence of the bank is important.
I would urge members who wish to ask questions of the Bank of Canada to invite the very able leadership and representatives of the bank to this committee.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 16:59
Hon. Wayne Easter - 16:59

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, as all Canadians know, the Bank of Canada is a Canadian government institution. It is, however, an independent institution, and its independence was a very important innovation at the time. It is something that I as finance minister prize and respect, and I think that all MPs should do likewise.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:00
Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:00

Lib. (ON)
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Mr. Chair, I didn't “admit” that the Bank of Canada was accountable to the people of Canada; I proudly stated it. I really cannot emphasize too strongly the importance of a respected and independent central bank to the functioning of our economy.
As a journalist, I had the privilege of quite often interviewing finance minister Jim Flaherty. I can tell you from personal experience that he respected the independence of the Bank of Canada. I would hope that today's Conservative Party would do the same.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:01
Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:02

Lib. (ON)
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Okay.
Well, Mr. Chair, as I had to point out yet again that in question period, the member opposite and some of his colleagues seem to be making a habit of misconstruing my words.
In no way does the government seek to conceal or keep secret the activities of the Bank of Canada. The Bank of Canada is a highly transparent, highly responsible institution, and I have a question for the Conservative members. Do they respect the independence of the Bank of Canada as previous Conservative finance ministers like the late Jim Flaherty did? I hope they do. The Canadian economy depends on it.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:02
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 17:03

Lib. (ON)
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The time's up. I'm sorry. It's called a rhetorical question.
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Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 17:03
Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:03

Lib. (ON)
Hon. Pierre Poilievre - 17:03
Julie Dzerowicz - 17:03

Lib. (ON)
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This is an issue very dear to my heart, and I really believe it's an issue whose time has come.
Yesterday was the 50th anniversary of the tabling of the report of the Royal Commission on the Status of Women in Canada. That report, among other things, called on the federal government to urgently begin negotiations with the provinces and territories on building a universal national child care system. That was 50 years ago. It has remained something that Canadian women, Canadian mothers and, I would say, Canadian parents have been hoping for and pushing for over those 50 years.
I think there are two things that make now a moment when we really can have a breakthrough.
The first is the coronavirus and the impact of the coronavirus pandemic. The spring particularly, when so many schools and day cares were closed down, was when I think many business leaders became more aware than they had been of the necessity of child care to keep women in the workforce.
We're seeing now that women's labour force participation has really taken a hit because of this pandemic. One of the things I am so struck by right now is that it's not just the usual suspects—early learning child care advocates and feminists—who are talking about child care; it is also corporate leaders. People are talking about child care as what it is, which is a driver of economic growth.
Early learning and child care can help parents participate in the labour force, and it can also create a better labour force when those well-educated little children grow up. I think we need to see it, of course, as a feminist issue, but we also need to see it as a real growth driver. I think our country is starting to look at it that way.
The second really important thing, Julie, is that we now have the example of Quebec, so talking about early learning and child care is no longer a theoretical exercise. It's no longer like some of the debates that we have in the House of Commons or at committee where everyone has their pre-baked, entrenched, ideological positions. When it comes to early learning and child care, we can look at Quebec and say that it works.
Labour force participation in Quebec, particularly of mothers of children three and under, is off the charts. It's one of the highest in the world. This has been a major contributor to economic growth in Quebec. It's worked in Quebec. It's time for us to learn from la belle province and to find ways to make it work across the rest of the country.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:07
Julie Dzerowicz - 17:07

Lib. (ON)
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Of course. We put in some measures on climate change in the fall economic statement as a down payment on the growth plan we were discussing earlier today. They include grants for home retrofits, grants of up to $5,000 to help people make their homes more energy-efficient. That's sort of a double win, because it will put people to work retrofitting your home and at the same time help our whole country to become more energy-efficient. Maybe it's even a triple win, because it will lower your electricity bills.
We also announced investment in the infrastructure for zero-emission vehicles across the country. Again, it's a double win there, because we'll create jobs in building that infrastructure and will make it easier for people to shift to zero-emission vehicles.
There are significant investments in nature-based solutions to climate change. Again, building those nature-based solutions is also a job creation program.
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Julie Dzerowicz - 17:09
Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:09

Lib. (ON)
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Wayne, can I just offer one final final thought?
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:09

Lib. (ON)
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It's something I meant to say, which is that we have some of Canada's hard-working public servants from the Department of Finance here with us. They have been working just like Stakhanovites to prepare the fall economic statement, and they were working really hard before that to support Canadian businesses, Canadian families and the Canadian economy through this crisis. I think this is a good opportunity. Maybe all of us will agree on one thing and only one thing—all members of this committee—that Canada is very lucky to have such fine, smart, hard-working and dedicated public servants.
Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.
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Hon. Wayne Easter - 17:10