//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Bob Zimmer (Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, CPC)): (1300)[English] I'd just like to welcome everybody here to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, meeting number 160. We are dealing with committee business and two motions: the first from Mr. Kent and the second from Mr. Angus. I would like, first of all, to welcome some members with us today who aren't usual members of the ethics committee. Ms. May was supposed to be here but I don't see her yet. We're going to welcome her here today, as well as Ms. Raitt, Mr. Poilievre, Ms. Ramsey and Mr. Weir. I think that's everybody. While the extra members are not members of this committee, as a courtesy we typically give guests the right to speak. Having said that, I'll turn the floor over to Mr. Kent.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent (Thornhill, CPC): (1300)[English]Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon, colleagues. You'll recall that on January 10, 2018, this committee met in a special session with the former Ethics Commissioner Mary Dawson, enabling her to brief us on “The Trudeau Report”, which turned out to be Trudeau report number one, the results of her investigation into the Prime Minister's illegal vacation. Ms. Dawson spent two hours with us, providing important relevant details on how she came to find the Prime Minister guilty of four violations of the Conflict of Interest Act. The findings of “The Trudeau Report” number one detailed unacceptable ethical lapses by the Prime Minister. However, Trudeau report number two, the scathing report released just last week by current Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion, details many more serious violations of the Conflict of Interest Act, up to and including, by any reasonable measure, attempted obstruction of justice or as Commissioner Dion concludes, actions “contrary to the constitutional principles of prosecutorial independence and the rule of law.”This is why, colleagues, Mr. Gourde and I wrote the following letter to the chair of our committee, Mr. Zimmer: Yesterday, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner released the “Trudeau II Report”. The report found “The Prime Minister, directly and through his senior officials, used various means to exert influence over Ms. Wilson-Raybould. The authority of the Prime Minister and his office was used to circumvent, undermine and ultimately attempt to discredit the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions as well as the authority of Ms. Wilson-Raybould as the Crown's chief law officer.” This is incredibly concerning. These findings show that Justin Trudeau used the power of his office to reward his friends and to punish his critics. This is a grave situation. Not only is Mr. Trudeau the first Prime Minister to have been found guilty of breaking the law, he is a repeat offender. Canadians deserve fulsome answers to the many remaining questions. We ask that you urgently convene a meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics for the purposes of receiving a briefing from the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.We would be prepared to move the following motion:That, given the unprecedented nature of the Trudeau II Report, the Committee invite the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner to brief the Committee on his report, and that the Committee invite any further witnesses as required based on the testimony of the Commissioner.Colleagues, in this committee's previous consideration of opposition motions regarding the SNC-Lavalin scandal, Mr. Erskine-Smith, speaking for all Liberal members of this committee, characterized those motions as premature until the justice committee completed its study and the Ethics Commissioner completed his investigation. The Liberal majority voted against all opposition motions. Now we know the chair and Liberal members of the justice committee shut down their study prematurely, and a week ago, the Ethics Commissioner published the “Trudeau II Report”, reporting to parliamentarians and to all Canadians that their Prime Minister broke the law by improperly attempting to influence the Attorney General in “many ways”. It confirmed Canadians' decisions and suspicions and much more.It is a weighty report, even though the commissioner states that his investigation is incomplete and even though he reports he was prevented by the Clerk of the Privy Council from accessing relevant witness testimony under a blanket confidentiality shield, thus blocking him from looking at the entire body of evidence. Despite all of those challenges, the Ethics Commissioner declares he gathered sufficient factual information to properly determine the matter on its merits. He has itemized those facts in great detail.Again, as the commissioner writes in his conclusion, the Prime Minister's actions were “improper” and “contrary to the constitutional principles of prosecutorial independence and the rule of law.”Colleagues, these detailed findings of fact on a Prime Minister's actions are unprecedented in Canadian history. I hope that you will agree that a debriefing session with the Ethics Commissioner as soon as possible is as appropriate now as was the debriefing session on “The Trudeau Report” number one with the previous commissioner last year.(1305) Thank you, Chair. Committee businessCommittee witnessesConflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerEthics and ethical issuesMotionsPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1305)[English]Thank you, Mr. Kent.We have a speaking order: Ms. Raitt, Mr. Angus and Mr. Poilievre.Ms. Raitt.PeterKentHon.ThornhillLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt (Milton, CPC): (1305)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I echo the comments made by Mr. Kent with respect to the desire for this committee to move forward by hearing from the Ethics Commissioner.I am here today because I was a member of the justice committee that was shut down in March of this year in favour of the Ethics Commissioner's conducting his study. A letter was sent by the Liberal members of the committee on March 18 to the chair of the justice committee. Those members were Randy Boissonnault, Iqra Khalid, Ali Ehsassi, Ron McKinnon and Colin Fraser. They said their conclusion, after the testimony heard at the justice committee, was that all of the rules and laws were followed. They also said they believed that the ongoing study of the Ethics Commissioner was the appropriate way forward and that they had faith in the Ethics Commissioner. They also noted that the opposition parties rushed to judgment before hearing all of the relevant information.Following the shutting down of the justice committee, the ethics committee then tried to raise the issue for discussion. On March 26, the matter was again blocked. As a result, we were left with the office of the Ethics Commissioner being the only venue where an investigation was taking place. Indeed, if you look at Hansard for April and May of 2019, when asked questions by members of the opposition, the Prime Minister said and then reiterated continuously that he had faith in the Ethics Commissioner conducting his study. However, most recently the Prime Minister, in commenting on the “Trudeau II Report” issued last week, said two things that caught my attention. The first was “We fully cooperated with the Commissioner” and the second was “I disagree with that conclusion”. These two statements carry great weight. They're by the Prime Minister of Canada and they are the only statements regarding the Ethics Commissioner's report on record by the Prime Minister on this matter. It is unfair that the Ethics Commissioner has no voice and no venue to be able to respond to these two assertions made by the Prime Minister. There is a provision in the Conflict of Interest Act to allow somebody who is being investigated to appeal a ruling of the Ethics Commissioner. We find ourselves in some uncharted territory because what the Prime Minister seems to seek to do is to change the report of the Ethics Commissioner by saying that he doesn't agree with it and that he fully co-operated.The evidence of the Ethics Commissioner in his report is that, to the contrary of the Prime Minister's statement, they did not fully co-operate with the commissioner at all. Indeed, the commissioner went to great lengths to note his concerns with respect to the appropriateness of the way in which the Prime Minister sought to produce documents, be interviewed and, at the end of the day, determine whether or not a waiver would be extended to allow the Ethics Commissioner to have access to all of the information he deemed appropriate for the study.Where we find ourselves in uncharted territory is this: The Conflict of Interest Act does not allow for the Ethics Commissioner's report to be changed. No committee of Parliament, no vote in the House of Commons can change the contents of a report by, or the decision of, the Ethics Commissioner. The report is what it is and stands as it is, yet the Prime Minister is now trying to say the report is wrong. The good news for him is that if he chooses to in fact go ahead and appeal the ruling of the Ethics Commissioner, he has the ability to do so. He can do that by launching a judicial review at the Federal Court of Appeal. That is the appropriate venue for the Prime Minister to challenge the Ethics Commissioner, not in the court of public opinion, which he is seeking to do right now. Why does this all pertain to a visit by the Ethics Commissioner to committee? Well, I do believe, as a lawyer, that there are rules regarding procedural fairness. Clearly, the Prime Minister is not going to be seeking judicial review of this ruling. He hasn't said he is going to do that, and in fact it doesn't seem as if he has any plans to even address that question. That being said, it is still fair for the Ethics Commissioner to be able to respond in some way, shape or form to questions by the committee, by members of Parliament who seek to understand the discrepancy between what the Ethics Commissioner found and what the Prime Minister is attempting to assert to the Canadian public. (1310) That is the issue of public interest that is so important in having the Ethics Commissioner come to testify. It is the foundation of our rule of law that accusations are allowed to be responded to and rebutted. That, I believe, is something, as parliamentarians, we owe to the Ethics Commissioner, who does his work at the request of all parliamentarians and indeed is voted on by all parliamentarians to sit as an officer of Parliament. In summary, Mr. Chair, I would say that, after months and months of the Liberal members of Parliament on the justice committee, on the ethics committee, the Prime Minister himself and every minister who answered a question in the House of Commons answering with the refrain that they trust and believe in the independence of parliamentary officers and will listen to them and will co-operate fully, it is owed to the Ethics Commissioner, due to all of these comments, to have the ability to come in and respond to the two things the Prime Minister has said about this report, which are, first, that he fully co-operated with the commissioner, which the commissioner says is not the case, and second, that he disagrees with the conclusion, without telling us which conclusion he disagrees with.With that, Mr. Chair, I pass the floor to the next individual, and I hope that my colleagues on the other side will, in fact, allow for the Ethics Commissioner to appear today, in fairness, in justice and to uphold the administration of our procedure.Committee businessCommittee witnessesConflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1310)[English]The speaking order is Mr. Angus, Mr. Poilievre, Ms. May, Mr. Weir and Ms. Ramsey.Go ahead, Mr. Angus.LisaRaittHon.MiltonCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus (Timmins—James Bay, NDP): (1310)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.It’s simple: no one is above the law. It’s a fundamental principle in Canada. The obligation to ensure ethical standards for all parliamentarians is the role of this committee. Mr. Dion’s report is clear: Mr. Trudeau broke Canadian law. He set up a plan to undermine the role of the former attorney general of Canada to help his friends at SNC-Lavalin. It’s not acceptable in Canada for the Prime Minister's Office to be an open bar for lobbyists. We have an obligation to abide by the codes and ethics of the Parliament of Canada.[English]Mr. Chair, it is my understanding that Mr. Dion is ready to speak. Is that correct?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1310)[English]Just to be clear, he said he'd make himself available on short notice. Based on some questions from all parties here, he has made himself available today by video conference so he is standing by if a motion is passed.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinCharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1310)[English]He reports to our committee. He's an officer of Parliament and, as an officer of Parliament, his job is to ensure that every parliamentarian meets the highest ethical code. When you are the Prime Minister of this country you are expected to meet the highest ethical code. We have the commissioner ready to speak and to respond to the report, as his normal function is to come to our committee and present that report.We need to hear from Mr. Dion because to have the Prime Minister of the country found guilty of breaking the law to aid very powerful people by writing a piece of legislation that existed only for that company—it was written for one purpose, to give them a “get out of jail” card—and then by having a campaign involving so many key people in the Liberal government to put pressure on the Attorney General and the independent prosecutor, this is not acceptable. Either we have the rule of law in this country or we don't. That is the fundamental question. For the Prime Minister to invoke the Mark Zuckerberg defence, which is “Hey, thanks a lot for finding me guilty. I'm just going to blow you off....” Mark Zuckerberg may get away with that because he lives in another jurisdiction and he is a gazillionaire, but Justin Trudeau cannot blow off the Ethics Commissioner of Canada. If he wants to do that, then he needs to come back and bring in a law that says he's no longer bound by any laws. However, right now he is bound by the Conflict of Interest Act and he's been found guilty. We see there is a pattern of interference by his office and the Privy Council, which prevented nine potential witnesses from giving testimony. We need to know who those nine witnesses were. We need to know how extensive the interference in and the obstruction of the work of the Ethics Commissioner was, because the Ethics Commissioner reports to us. It is our job to go back to Parliament whenever there is a problem with lobbying, with the work of the Privacy Commissioner, the work of the Information Commissioner or the work of the Ethics Commissioner. When their work is being interfered with for political purposes, it is our job to put our partisanship aside and say that we have to have a standard that all parliamentarians meet and the Prime Minister has failed to meet this.Mr. Chair, you have the power to ask the commissioner to report to us. I'd like to see you exercise that. He has to report to us. This is his job. Any attempt by the Liberals to stop that will be continuing a pattern of interference in and obstruction of the fundamental principles of the parliamentary system. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[English] Thank you, Mr. Angus.Next is Mr. Poilievre.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): (1315)[English]Mr. Chairman, you've told us that the Ethics Commissioner is standing by ready to testify about the guilty verdict he rendered against the Prime Minister last week. Now, the Prime Minister's MPs across the way will decide whether, after silencing Jody Wilson-Raybould, they will silence the Ethics Commissioner as well by voting to ban the Ethics Commissioner from appearing at the ethics committee. If so, what does that indicates about the ethics of this government?It's important to recap why we're here.SNC-Lavalin is accused of over $100 million in fraud and bribery. It's accused of stealing over $100 million from among the poorest people in the world. Instead of going to trial, the company convinced the Prime Minister to change the Criminal Code to allow alleged corporate criminals to get off of a trial by signing a deal to apologize and promise never to do what they did again. The Prime Minister passed that in an omnibus bill and then demanded that his Attorney General extend such a deal, against the earlier decision of the top prosecutor not to. She refused, so he fired her. She spoke out, so he kicked her out and shut down numerous parliamentary inquiries into the matter.Since then he has told us to wait for the Ethics Commissioner to issue his verdict. We all waited, assuming that when that verdict came we'd all be able to hear about it right here in the ethics committee. Here today, we will decide if in fact that will happen. We know there's a lot more to this story that the Ethics Commissioner has not been able to tell. At least nine witnesses were prevented by the Trudeau government from telling their full story because of a government-imposed gag order under the guise of cabinet confidentiality. There are many mysteries that we need to unravel in this matter and only by hearing witnesses can we do so. One of them is the famous 9,000 jobs claim. Most of SNC-Lavalin's jobs are for construction work done in this country. They're going to be building a north-south transit project here in Ottawa. Well, they can't build that in Hong Kong or Munich and then drop it out of a helicopter on the nation's capital; that work will have to be done here. The headquarters must stay in Montreal until the year 2024 according to a loan agreement with the Québec pension plan. The CEO of the company has said that the company is not moving anywhere, and we know that leaving Canada would not exempt the company from prosecution or conviction. We tried to ask the government where this claim about jobs had come from. In fact, Ms. May asked some of the best questions on this matter. She asked Mr. Wernick: In the public interest then, Mr. Wernick, in preparing advice to cabinet, what work did you do to assess the threat to jobs? Did you look at the commitments made to the Government of Quebec not to move headquarters, as mentioned? Did you look at the current financial status of SNC-Lavalin? Did you in fact have an independent assessment of whether there would be any impact on jobs from a decision to proceed as the director of public prosecutions had decided to proceed?His response was:No, because the file was entirely in the carriage of the then minister of justice.Apparently, the justice department now does job assessments.Gerald Butts had a different story when Ms. May asked the same questions. She asked:Is there any evidence that jobs were actually going to be at stake by letting this go through the courts and letting the independent director of public prosecutions and the Attorney General do their jobs?Gerald Butts responded:I can't recall anything specific.He said, regarding the jobs claim:That's my understanding from Department of Finance briefings, but I have to say it's been a long time. Now they're claiming that the Department of Finance has proof of this 9,000 jobs claim. Therefore, let's turn it over to the finance minister.In the Ethics Commissioner's report, the commissioner states:When asked if he, or his office, had undertaken a study or analysis of the economic impacts of the Director of Public Prosecutions' decision, Mr. Morneau testified that none had been conducted.(1320) Then a reporter, on March 7, asked the Prime Minister, “Both Mr. Wernick and Mr. Butts testified they had no direct, empirical evidence of this 9,000 potential job loss.... Did you have any evidence of 9,000 jobs potentially being lost?”The response was “We had heard representations from various sources, including the company itself, that this was an issue of deep concern to them and that it would potentially have consequences as dire as the company having to leave Canada altogether”. You'll notice he didn't provide any evidence, but he did claim that the company might leave the country altogether. Let's turn to the Ethics Commissioner's report on that. It says that top Trudeau adviser “Mr. Bouchard's notes from the same October 23, 2018 meeting with senior officials of the Privy Council Office show that they also discussed SNC-Lavalin's board of directors' potential plan to move the corporate headquarters but the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec...would not let that happen.” In other words, Mr. Trudeau's office knew in October, months before he made the claim that the headquarters would leave, that the eventuality was impossible.Given that this was not about jobs, the most important question I want to ask is this: What motivated this? What on God's green earth would compel a Prime Minister to pass a law, at the request of one company, exempting corporate criminals from prosecution, put pressure on his Attorney General to overturn his top prosecutor and then fire her when she refused to do so?We know that SNC-Lavalin gave $100,000 in illegal donations to the Liberal Party. We know they swarmed Parliament Hill and the PMO with lobbyists. There was a revolving door between the government and SNC-Lavalin. We need to know the real motive for helping protect this company. [Translation]We are here at a meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics to hear the testimony of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.The current government tried to silence the former attorney general. Are Justin Trudeau’s Liberals going to use their majority to do the same? Are they going to stop the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner from appearing before the ethics committee? Are they going to attempt another cover-up so that Canadians don’t find out the truth before the election? Such is the decision before us.Thank you very much.Committee businessCriminal prosecutionsEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.Trudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.Next up we have Ms. May. PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/2897ElizabethMayElizabeth-MaySaanich—Gulf IslandsGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MayElizabeth_GP.jpgInterventionMs. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP): (1325)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the committee for the opportunity to speak. Thanks to Mr. Poilievre's intervention, I don't have to recite the jobs questions I asked at the justice committee. I'm deeply troubled by what faces us. All of you around the table I regard as friends, and I try to approach things in a very non-partisan way, which is very hard on the eve of an election. Everybody goes into hyper-partisan mode then, and this is, in a lot of ways, red meat right before an election. I know that, but something is really wrong here. Something is deeply wrong here, and I beg my friends around the table to allow Mr. Dion to speak to us.I thought I knew what had transpired in the SNC-Lavalin mess based on the testimony of our former justice minister and former attorney general. Her chronology, her notes, I thought covered everything that had occurred, and I believed her every syllable, but Mr. Dion's report has shaken me far more than our former attorney general's testimony, and I'll tell you why. We now know there were meetings that took place on the edge of other international gatherings, like in Davos, including the Minister of Finance, Bill Morneau and the CEO of SNC-Lavalin, and that the idea of changing our law to insert a deferred prosecution agreement into the Criminal Code came from SNC-Lavalin for their use specifically. No wonder the machinery of government began to panic when the plan wasn't working out. There was a hiccup because the justice minister and attorney general at the time respected the principle of prosecutorial independence and wouldn't intervene against the section 13 report of the director of public prosecutions.This is a critical point: There were other ministers involved. I thought and still think, because I bend over backward to be fair to everyone concerned, that part of the reason the Prime Minister doesn't realize what he did was wrong is that he didn't receive a decent legal briefing from his Clerk of the Privy Council. None was provided to him by the clerk or by his staff, but he did receive a decent legal briefing from Jody Wilson-Raybould, the former minister of justice and attorney general, who told him, “Watch what you're doing. You're interfering in prosecutorial independence”. I know she didn't sit him down and get out a chalkboard and explain it. She didn't think she had to. What I find really troubling about what Mr. Dion uncovered is the idea that in any government governed by the rule of law a minister of justice and attorney general's position would be so deeply undermined by her colleagues. I know that a lot of Liberals have said it was wrong of her to tape Michael Wernick. I understood why, under the circumstances, she felt it necessary, but the deeper distrust is to imagine that a report from a former Supreme Court judge, a very respected jurist, John Major, peddled by SNC-Lavalin's lawyer, also a former Supreme Court judge, Frank Iacobucci, blinded people around the cabinet table—because of the power of those justices' titles and the previous work they have done on the Supreme Court—to the reality that the only legal advice they should have been taking was from their own lawyer, the attorney general.However, what is really shocking to me is that they peddled this report undermining the judgment of their cabinet colleague, the minister of justice and attorney general. They peddled it without even sharing it with her. I ask my Liberal friends to imagine for one minute a scenario in which Jean Chrétien allowed his cabinet colleagues to circulate a memo undermining Irwin Cotler. Can you imagine Pierre Trudeau allowing his cabinet colleagues to circulate a memo undermining the judgment of John Turner?This is really scandalous. The Prime Minister is guilty here of the kind of offence for which resignation is appropriate. I leave it to him. I'm not calling for his resignation, but it does strike me as beyond belief that this kind of thing could go on. It's not a small matter. It shouldn't be covered up. We really do need to ask Mr. Dion what he uncovered. We need to hear his opinion on the nature of further remedies and how many steps we should take to ensure that cabinet confidentiality is removed so that those nine additional witnesses can be heard.I also want to say very clearly that I don't think this is a partisan issue. I think it is systemic. It is shocking that the senior civil service of this country could be manipulated by a transnational corporation in this fashion, and I think lots of other transnational corporations may have the same kind of access. This is systemic regardless of who is in the PMO. Regardless if it's a Conservative or a Liberal government, we have to ensure that the machinery of government, our civil service, is not at the disposal of transnational corporations to do their bidding. (1330)I don't think it's about the Prime Minister and making this a political football in the election campaign. I think it's a much larger issue and I think it is systemic. I'd like to hear from the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.[Translation]I think we now have a moral obligation to protect our democracy against the power of large global firms.[English]Right now our democracy looks weakened by this. We need to get to the bottom of it.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Committee businessCriminal prosecutionsEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.Trudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Thank you, Ms. May.Next up is Mr. Weir.ElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf IslandsErinWeirRegina—Lewvan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31796ErinWeirErin-WeirRegina—LewvanCo-operative Commonwealth Federation CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WeirErin_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Erin Weir (Regina—Lewvan, CCF): (1330)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to thank you and all members of this committee for giving independent MPs an opportunity to participate in today's meeting. One of the things I've really appreciated about being an independent MP is the opportunity to take a more dispassionate look at the issues. That's what I've tried to do in all the committee hearings on SNC-Lavalin.I'd like to say a few words about my reading of the Ethics Commissioner's report and some of the topics that I think might be worth pursuing if this committee decides to hear from the Ethics Commissioner and perhaps other witnesses.The commissioner's key conclusion is that there was a violation of section 9 of the Conflict of Interest Act, which says that public office holders should not: seek to influence a decision of another person so as to further the public office holder’s private interests or those of the public office holder’s relatives or friends or to improperly further another person’s private interests.I don't think anyone is alleging that the Prime Minister sought to further the private interests of his family, his friends or himself. I also don't think there's any doubt that many, if not most, public policy decisions will either further or detract from the private interests of various companies and individuals. The key conclusion from the Ethics Commissioner is that the Prime Minister improperly tried to further another person's private interests. That finding hinges critically on an interpretation of what is “improper”. I think it would be well worth this committee's time to dig into that with the Ethics Commissioner. We've heard a lot about findings of fact but really this conclusion comes down to an interpretation of one word in the Conflict of Interest Act, which is something that I think could be open to challenge and certainly could be open to further exploration.It's a little bit unclear to me whether the Ethics Commissioner believes the Prime Minister is guilty of any kind of conflict of interest in the classic definition of that term. It does seem clear that the Ethics Commissioner believes that the Prime Minister is guilty of improperly furthering another person's private interests but there's already been some debate about how that language should be interpreted and what's improper. I would suggest that as an appropriate focus for this committee's work.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Thank you, Mr. Weir.Next we will go to Ms. Ramsey.ErinWeirRegina—LewvanTraceyRamseyEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88745TraceyRamseyTracey-RamseyEssexNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RamseyTracey_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Tracey Ramsey (Essex, NDP): (1330)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the committee members for having me at the committee today.I am having some serious déjà vu. Having sat on the justice committee along with some of my other colleagues here on the other side, this experience right now feels very familiar to me, with silence from the Liberal members and opposition members laying out the reasons why we'd like to hear the truth. I am certainly appreciative of Mr. Dion's report, but it leaves many questions. There are still questions to be answered that are incredibly important to democracy in our country, as my colleague mentioned. My son is 18 and will be voting for the first time this year. I can't imagine a country where the Prime Minister can break the law and not admit it and not apologize for it, but thinks that, quite frankly, somehow Canadians are going to accept it. Is this Canada's future now? Is this the bar we're setting, that the individual in the highest office in the land can break the law and nothing happens in response? He doesn't have any accountability for that. The players who are involved have no accountability for that. Mr. Morneau has been mentioned at this table. There are many questions surrounding his involvement, which he now in some way tries to say he can't recall, which seems incredibly unbelievable to Canadians.This matters. This is about the Prime Minister trying to corrupt the Attorney General's office. This report is incredibly important to Canadians. I think it's a mistake if there are those sitting around this table who think this does not matter to Canadians, that they don't understand enough about it, and there are members who want to get stuck talking about the McLellan report, or different things, such as the DPA, that surround this. The Prime Minister of Canada has broken the law. We have questions for the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner that need to be answered and that Canadians deserve the truth about. The pursuit of the truth and getting answers to questions that people have in this entire thing has constantly been blocked by the Liberals. All of us walked in through the press today and were asked questions because this report leaves things hanging, and we can't leave those questions hanging because this is an incredibly serious thing, regardless of who will be Prime Minister of Canada come this fall. We need to know who was involved and to have other people come forward, and we can't accept that it is now okay for the Prime Minister to break the law in Canada.I implore the Liberal members of this ethics committee, as I have done many, many times at the justice committee, to allow the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner to speak before us.I understand, Mr. Chair, that he is waiting, so I move that we go to a vote so we can allow his testimony to begin and ask questions of him. I move for a vote, please. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English]I still have two others to speak to this. We have to go through the list. If the people on the speakers list want to give up their time to go to a vote, then that's a possibility. I don't see them willing to do that right now.I have Mr. Gourde next to speak, and then Ms. Raitt again. Go ahead, Mr. Gourde. TraceyRamseyEssexJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lévis—Lotbinière, CPC): (1335)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I, too, would like to talk about the report, and I will keep it short. The title of the report alone gives me the chills: the “Trudeau II Report”. The number II means it’s the second report in the same session about the fact that the Prime Minister broke the law. In the case at hand, he violated section 9 of the Conflict of Interest Act. Here is what that section stipulates:No public office holder shall use his or her position as a public office holder to seek to influence a decision of another person so as to further the public office holder’s private interests or those of the public office holder’s relatives or friends or to improperly [I repeat, improperly] further another person’s private interests.In paragraph 282 of this very detailed report, Commissioner Mario Dion specifies that “the authority of the Prime Minister and his office was used to circumvent, undermine and ultimately attempt to discredit the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions as well as the authority of Ms. Wilson-Raybould as the Crown’s chief law officer.”That is a scandal in itself. One has to wonder, with an election around the corner, whether Canadians deserve a prime minister who breaks the laws of his own country. This is scathing.I hope that in the next few minutes, my colleagues across the way will have the moral conscience to permit us to invite the commissioner to come testify. He’s willing to do it. We have other questions to ask, and there is more to come on this story. We’d like to shed some light on that and learn the whole truth. Canadians deserve to know the truth before the election on October 21.In the democracy in which we live, it’s very troubling for all Canadians to see that an individual in a high-level position like the Prime Minister’s doesn’t seem to understand the separation of executive, legislative and judiciary powers.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English] Thank you, Mr. Gourde.Next up, we have Ms. Raitt.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1340)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.The reality is that the Ethics Commissioner found that the Prime Minister improperly used political considerations in attempting to have the Attorney General essentially overrule the director of public prosecutions.The Prime Minister is saying that it was not the case, that in fact it wasn't political considerations but had to do with something else, namely jobs. My colleague, Mr. Poilievre, I think has completely debunked that notion. I know that my colleague, Ms. May, would do the same thing in a heartbeat if she had an opportunity to do so.We are at this impasse where we would like to know what were the political considerations noted in Mr. Dion's report and alluded to in some recent interviews of Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott.After the report was made public on August 15, Jody Wilson-Raybould was interviewed by CBC. It was a lengthy interview by Vassy Kapelos. She was asked a number of times about what had happened and for her comments with respect to the report of the Ethics Commissioner. In response to one of the questions, she made the following very clear: “I would not change the actions that I took. I believe that Canadians want to see, in their public officials, particularly ones that hold offices like the Attorney General of Canada, that they will be making decisions not based on political considerations but based on a fundamental understanding of the law and based on a fundamental understanding about how we maintain the fundamental tenets of our democracy and are constantly vigilante on that.” She would not make changes to any of her actions because she would not make decisions that were not based on the principles or values she had always embraced. She went on to say later that upholding independence and the rule of law was what she was doing in her role as the Attorney General. A number of times she indicated in other parts of her interview that she had questions with respect to political considerations.After Ms. Wilson-Raybould's interview, Jane Philpott was interviewed further by Vassy Kapelos and she got more to the point. She talked very specifically about considerations that should and should not be taken into account when decisions are being made. Kapelos asked her whether there was a conflict for the purposes of benefiting a private corporation: “...the Ethics Commissioner determined but the Prime Minister often speaks about his motivation. If you say that you don't know for sure that it wasn't, what do you think he was motived by?”Ms. Philpott responded, “I don't think it's motivations that concern people so much as whether or not we hold and regard what is in the best interests of the country and that we hold and regard the very pillars of what our democracy is founded upon. One of those pillars is that our justice system needs to be independent and”—with my own emphasis, Mr. Chair—“politicians who have the desire to further their political career, to ensure that they will win an election, to potentially support those who may have supported them financially or in other ways, those are not the kinds of motivations that should be on politicians' minds when it comes to a criminal matter. It's extremely clear that politicians, the executive and legislative branch, should not interfere with the judicial branch of government.”Those were Jane Philpott's words, which caused me to wonder what information she has that causes her to have such a strong point of view on what political considerations may or may not have been taken into consideration when decisions were being made.Mr. Chair, that brings me to the issue of this waiver.The reason the Ethics Commissioner was unable to get further in terms of the political considerations, other than the four times he clearly noted he believed the Prime Minister, himself or through his staff, was politically interfering, is this. The reason he can't get any more granularity on it is that, as he noted, he was unable to get the relevant information that he wanted. (1345)I'm going to read from his report on page 5, paragraph 14. Actually, I'm going to start with paragraph 13. It says:In order to gain access to as much relevant information as possible, on March 29, 2019, I instructed legal counsel in our Office to engage with counterparts in the Privy Council Office to request that witnesses be enabled to provide all of their evidence to our Office. Despite several weeks of discussions, the offices remained at an impasse over access to Cabinet confidences.On May 3, 2019, I raised the matter directly with the Prime Minister during his interview. Through legal counsel, Mr. Trudeau stated that he would consult with the Privy Council Office to see whether the Order in Council could be amended. Now, the order in council that we're speaking of, of course, is the order in council that was passed by cabinet in order to allow Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott to speak up to a certain point in time, and after that point in time was reached, they could not speak to matters that had cabinet confidence around them. On May 28, 2019, with the issue of access to Cabinet confidences unresolved, I wrote to the newly appointed Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Ian Shugart. I set out the concerns expressed by witnesses, noted above, and explained what I believe to be the legislative framework that, at least implicitly, authorizes our Office to access such information. I cited provisions of both the Conflict of Interest Act and the Parliament of Canada Act that prohibit me from revealing confidences of the Queen's Privy Council in the context of public declarations of recusal and our annual reports, respectively. I explained that I understood these prohibitions to mean that our Office would have prima facie access to this information. I then drew the analogy between these prohibitions and the restrictions on the disclosure of confidential information placed on me in the course of examinations, and why I would have similar access to and a similar prohibition on publishing Cabinet confidences in that context.That was the Ethics Commissioner's pitch on May 28 to the Clerk of the Privy Council, explaining why he should be able to receive the information that the Prime Minister said was being held back due to cabinet confidence. In a letter dated June 13, 2019, the Clerk of the Privy Council declined my request for access to all Cabinet confidences in respect of this examination.Mr. Trudeau's legal counsel indicated that the decision on whether to expand the waiver was made by the Privy Council Office without the involvement of the Prime Minister or his office.But as we all know from this long and sordid, drawn-out affair that we've been witnessing since January, there is always somebody who can overrule a bureaucrat, and that's exactly what Mr. Trudeau wanted Jody Wilson-Raybould to do. So for him to say that he wasn't part of the decision actually is completely irrelevant because he always has the power to tell the Clerk of the Privy Council what to do. However, I continue reading:Because of the decisions to deny our Office further access to Cabinet confidences, witnesses were constrained in their ability to provide all evidence. I was, therefore, prevented from looking over the entire body of evidence to determine its relevance to my examination. Decisions that affect my jurisdiction under the Act, by setting parameters on my ability to receive evidence, should be made transparently and democratically by Parliament [emphasis here], not by the very same public office holders who are subject to the regime I administer.I am convinced that if our Office is to remain truly independent and fulfill its purpose, I must have unfettered access to all information that could be relevant to the exercise of my mandate. I must be satisfied that decisions made by the most senior public office holders, including those discussed at Cabinet, are free from any conflicts of interest.In the present examination, I have gathered sufficient factual information to properly determine the matter on its merits. Because of my inability to access all Cabinet confidences related to the matter I must, however, report that I was unable to fully discharge the investigatory duties conferred upon me by the Act. Now, why is this important? This is important because the Ethics Commissioner is detailing very clearly that he sought to get information on cabinet confidences that were outside the waiver the Prime Minister already had given. Jane Philpott, as well, in her interview said it very clearly, when she was asked by Vassy Kapelos whether or not there was any further information that she thought was relevant that was covered by the waiver. She was asked, “Are you in possession of any information that you think the Ethics Commissioner should have had access to?” Her answer was that “There are pieces of information that I am aware of that I am not at liberty to speak about.”(1350)Jane Philpott further goes on to say, “So what I would point to for Canadians is what the Ethics Commissioner said, which is that he was able to get enough information to make a determination in terms of whether or not there was a breach of the Conflict of Interest Act or not. So it didn't, in a sense, hold him back from being able to make a determination on this, but I would say that I can affirm that there are pieces of information that I am aware of but that, because of the oath that I made to Queen and country to keep in secret that which shall be kept secret, according to the oath that I made as a cabinet minister, unless I am released from that obligation, I am not at liberty to share those pieces of information either with you or with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.”We know there is more information out there. Jody Wilson-Raybould has said that, as has Jane Philpott, and indeed the Ethics Commissioner attempted to get it. He was unable to get it by virtue of the decision of the Prime Minister. That is not fully co-operating with the Ethics Commissioner, and again, as I said before, that deserves to be reviewed. More importantly, and most recently, there has been the publication of a book. The book is written by a CBC reporter by the name of Aaron Wherry, and in it, Aaron Wherry had unprecedented access to the Prime Minister on this topic.If you recall, I said that there were certain things that the former attorney general couldn't discuss, that the former president of the Treasury Board could not discuss, that were not given to the Ethics Commissioner and that the witnesses were not allowed to talk about. One of those things was what happened after the resignation of Jody Wilson-Raybould and what happened in the meetings between the Prime Minister and the former attorney general, because that waiver was cut off when the former attorney general left her time as Attorney General and moved to Veterans Affairs, and as you know, she resigned from Veterans Affairs after that.Miraculously, it would appear that the concept of cabinet confidence doesn't apply to the Prime Minister—much like every other rule seems not to apply to the Prime Minister, quite frankly—because he gave complete access to this writer, Aaron Wherry, to detail the meeting he had with Jody Wilson-Raybould post her time becoming the Minister of Veterans Affairs. He is waiving cabinet confidence to a reporter in order to get his side out in a novel, yet the Ethics Commissioner cannot receive this information. Jody Wilson-Raybould says there is information and Jane Philpott says there is information that is of interest to Canadians. I would like to ask the Ethics Commissioner whether or not he has taken any legal advice as to whether or not there has been a waiver of this cabinet confidence by the Prime Minister to cover the period of time that is currently not covered and extend it over that period of time. I think that would be of great interest to Canadians, and I also believe it is something that goes to the heart of ensuring that we get to the bottom of the matter. Picking up on what Elizabeth May said just a few minutes ago, this is the kind of scandal and the kinds of actions that warrant the highest level of punishment. We can't force that, but it can be at the discretion.... Clearly, as she said, it's not going to happen, but we still owe it to Canadians to understand and give them the truthful information on what has happened and not just take the word of the Prime Minister, because we have seen over and over again that the Prime Minister simply does not keep his word.Thank you.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1350)[English]Thank you, Ms. Raitt.Next up is Mr. MacKinnon. LisaRaittHon.MiltonStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.): (1350)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We all appreciate the efforts of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner and his office, as well as their support to members and Parliament. As far as this report is concerned, the Prime Minister has thanked the commissioner and accepted his report. This matter has been thoroughly studied. As we all heard, the justice committee heard from 10 witnesses for a total of 13 hours of testimony over five weeks. In addition, we now have this detailed report from the commissioner. It represents months of work for him, and it’s 63 pages long. The Prime Minister has stated unequivocally that he was only trying to protect the jobs of thousands of Canadian workers the whole time. I would think all workers and all Canadians would expect that if their jobs were in jeopardy.We also have a guide by the Honourable Anne McLellan. She spoke with all the former attorneys general. Her guide helps clarify the relationships between—Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1355)[English]Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. The justice committee shut down their study. If the Liberal members want to have Anne McLellan, they can go back to the justice committee. This is about the ethics committee. To bring in the report of Anne McLellan, a former Liberal, go back to the justice committee that you shut down. This is about the ethics committee and Mr. Dion's report.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinStevenMacKinnonGatineauBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1355)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus.It's not really a point of order.Mr. MacKinnon, proceed.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1355)[Translation] I will start over. We also have a guide by the Honourable Anne McLellan. She spoke with all the former attorneys general. Her guide helps clarify the relationships between attorneys general and their colleagues in cabinet. The Prime Minister has already pledged to all Canadians that he will act on Ms. McLellan’s recommendations.The combined processes of the justice committee and the commissioner, which took many hours, months and pages to complete, were detailed and thorough. It’s obvious to me, after hearing my honourable colleagues speak, that the opposition’s real objective is simply to play politics.[English]We're all thankful for the work of the commissioner's office in support of all members of the House at all times. The commissioner's report is quite detailed and Canadians have had a good opportunity to familiarize themselves with the content. The Prime Minister has thanked the commissioner and accepted the report.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Steve MacKinnon: Though he disagrees with the conclusions, especially when so many jobs were at stake—which is no laughing matter—he has already announced that steps will be taken to ensure that no government goes through a similar situation in the future. This government, as any government, should take seriously the responsibility of standing up for jobs and growing the economy. It's the responsibility of any Prime Minister to stand up for people's jobs. In fact, it's the responsibility of all members of Parliament. People whose jobs are on the line should expect no less of their elected representatives. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1355)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, it is customary for a member who quotes a document in the committee to table it so that all members can see it. The member across the way claims to have an analysis from the government showing that 9,000 jobs were at stake. Can he just table that so we can all have a look at that analysis? Thanks.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinStevenMacKinnonGatineauBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1355)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, are you able to table that for the committee today?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinPierrePoilievreHon.CarletonStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1355)[English]No. Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Steven MacKinnon: Nor is that a point of order, Mr. Chair.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1355)[English]We'll continue with Mr. MacKinnon.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1355)[English]That member, with his rich experience in Canada's private sector, we'll have to look at his views with some skepticism too.It's the responsibility of any Prime Minister to stand up for people's jobs and livelihoods across the country, and that should also be the job of all members of Parliament while upholding, of course, at all times, the rule of law.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1355)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.This is all fine, but we're talking about a specific report. The only job that is referenced as being at risk in the report is where the Prime Minister said he was speaking as the MP for Papineau. Since Mr. Morneau had no evidence of job losses, I would ask my colleague why he's making up facts now when we're talking about a factual finding of guilt against a Prime Minister who improperly used his position to further the interests of a very powerful corporation. That is the issue before us, not this spin and falsehood about jobs that has been proven to be false by the Ethics Commissioner. If the member has evidence that wasn't supplied to the Ethics Commissioner—perhaps from one of the nine witnesses who were not allowed to testify, who might know all about these jobs—I'd ask him to put it on the table, or spare us these Liberal talking points that have been proven to be false and that continue the falsehoods of the Prime Minister. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinStevenMacKinnonGatineauBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus. That's debate.We'll go back to Mr. MacKinnon to finish his statement.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1400)[English]Mr. Chairman, where I come from, we listen to folks and then get to speak and have a healthy exchange.I've now been interrupted three times by things that were not points of order. I hope the committee will indulge in hearing the rest of our statement. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, to be clear, the chair has the discretion to hear points of order and debate—StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1400)[English]Of course he does.BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]—and has a responsibility to keep things in order.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1400)[English]I'm just expressing it through you, Mr. Chair—BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]I hope the committee will acknowledge the chair and his role in keeping things in order.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1400)[English] Thank you. I appreciate your chairmanship today, Mr. Chair.The Prime Minister's objective throughout, as he stated, was to protect thousands of jobs in Canada, all the while ensuring the integrity and independence of the justice system. As has been confirmed on multiple occasions, no direction was ever given to the former attorney general. Also, former attorney general Anne McLellan has authored a report after speaking with all former attorneys general, as well as constitutional scholars, and has offered recommendations, including a process and a set of principles to guide the relationship between the Attorney General and the government. Both the Prime Minister and the Attorney General have already stated that they will be looking at how to best implement those recommendations, such as the protocol on interactions with the Attorney General and better education for all parliamentarians on defining the role. The matter before us today has been studied quite extensively. The justice committee heard over 13 hours of comprehensive testimony from 10 different witnesses over a five-week span, and we now have a very thorough 63-page report by the commissioner. The opposition's claim to simply want the facts is contradicted by the fact that what they seek is found in the commissioner's report. It is already public, on top of the 13 hours of testimony that I just referenced, so the only conclusion that I and members of this committee can come to is that the opposition seeks to prolong this process for political reasons and partisan games. It is for that reason, Mr. Chair, that we will be opposing this motion. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]We'll go next to Mr. Erskine-Smith. Go ahead.StevenMacKinnonGatineauNathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88687NathanielErskine-SmithNathaniel-Erskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Erskine-SmithNathaniel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith (Beaches—East York, Lib.): (1400)[English] When I was first made vice-chair of this committee I don't think anyone realized how popular we'd be. Welcome, everyone.I have two points of clarification. First, when Ms. Raitt talks about procedural fairness, of course, a decision-maker owes procedural fairness to the subject of an investigation. It's not the other way around. Second, to the point about silencing Ms. Wilson-Raybould, I watched hours of testimony before the justice committee. I read 43 pages of testimony, at the the very end of which she said she had nothing more to add to the process. Those are my two points of clarification. I am not supporting this motion because of any.... Mr. Scheer was in my riding yesterday, and I want to be clear that I'm not supporting this motion because of any purported grassroots Conservative campaign. I got 10 emails from my riding. That's not what motivated me. I will be supporting this motion, though, to invite the commissioner to discuss his report, one, in the interests of transparency and accountability and, two, because in my own considered view, I think the Ethics Commissioner's conclusions are legally flawed in many respects and I'd like to ask him some questions about his legal mistakes.I've given a lot of thought to what happened. I've read what feels like a never-ending set of materials and coverage, and in the interest of making probably nobody happy, I want to share a few of my own conclusions, a number of which I've shared publicly before.First and generally, it is both true that the then-attorney general did not exercise sufficient due diligence on the file and that the PMO, at the same time, exerted pressure that should not have been exerted. The Shawcross doctrine states that an Attorney General may, but is not obliged to, consult with colleagues in the government, and indeed, it would be a mistake in some cases not to consult. A 2014 general directive states that “it is quite appropriate for the Attorney General to consult with Cabinet colleagues before exercising his or her powers under the DPP Act in respect of criminal proceedings. Indeed, sometimes it will be important to do so in order to be cognisant of pan-government perspectives.” Moreover, in examining the evidence, McLellan's report is also clear that the Attorney General could have engaged in conversations with the DPP. She suggested that she could have asked for more information and solicited a second opinion.Now to understand all public policy considerations here—and I take Ms. May's point that there was not a sufficient economic impact analysis—I'll tell you that if Ms. May or I or perhaps Mr. Kent were the Attorney General, the right course of action would have been to request an economic impact analysis from the finance minister or a third party when you have a section 13 public interest notice from your DPP. While Commissioner Dion was right that these considerations should not bear on his strict analysis under the act, they do colour the overall situation, and the deputy minister's comments in testimony to Dion raised the same concerns for me.At the same time, Dion's report in its factual findings made clear that the PMO exerted pressure that should not have been exerted. The Shawcross doctrine is clear that the government is not to pressure the Attorney General at all for any reason, and McLellan's recommendations to establish new protocols for existing standards are themselves an acknowledgement that what took place should not have happened.It is important that the Prime Minister has acknowledged that mistakes were made, and I trust that McLellan's recommendations will be implemented.Third, I know that my Conservative colleagues, and perhaps all colleagues on the other side, will disagree with me, but personally, having thought about this a lot, I think the reaction and outrage about this situation have been disproportionate to these original mistakes of improper pressure, and I'll give three reasons. First, in my view, a DPA should have been considered more seriously. Organizations are made up of good and bad people. When bad people do bad things in those organizations, they should be held criminally responsible to the fullest extent of the law, but the good people in those organizations, the innocent employees, so long as the organization has reformed its practices, should not suffer as a result. Second, given that this was a new law and the Attorney General had never intervened under the DPP Act, getting a second opinion from former chief justice McLachlin made sense to me. I disagree with Dion's finding that there was any tantamount direction, but from what I read in his report, I can see that there were repeated efforts to ask for a second opinion—and proper repeated efforts to ask for a second opinion. Where I disagreed in reading his report was that I could see no evidence that the analysis or advice of Chief Justice McLachlin was in any way predetermined. He made that factual finding, which I think is an incorrect one. A second opinion from a respected jurist would have been reasonable.Last, in the end there would always have been a great deal of transparency even if the Attorney General had succumbed to that improper pressure and changed her mind. McLellan notes that with the creation of the DPP in 2006—one of the very few things I will say that the former Conservative government did well—the federal justice system has undergone the most significant organizational change in the last half-century and that any decision by the Attorney General to intervene must be in writing and public. Again, McLellan notes that its use would bring a high degree of public and political scrutiny. (1405) Last and related, I do not accept Dion's findings that there was a conflict of interest. In my view, that conclusion is legally incorrect. Mr. Weir, you have highlighted some of the reasons why. The Prime Minister and his staff, and you can read it in Dion's report, on multiple occasions were referencing jobs. We can question the evidentiary foundations of their intentions, but their intentions.... In the conversations with Gerry Butts, the conversations with the staffers, or Mr. Trudeau himself, they are saying, “We care about protecting jobs”, and Dion documents multiple instances of this. So they were standing up for jobs, albeit with mistakes in doing so, but in my opinion, having read the evidence, they were standing up in the public interest. At no time were they improperly furthering a private interest under the act. There was a breach of Shawcross but not a conflict of interest.A conflict would occur if, as a public office holder, I further a family member's interest, a friend's interest, my own interest—or, in any basic statutory interpretation where we read the act consistently with reference to other parts of the act and the purpose of the act, we would find that basket clause that one ought not to improperly further a similar interest. Conflicts are inherent. They demand recusal. They are unchanged actually by proper or improper pressure. Making mistakes to stand up for the public interest is not a conflict, though it was a breach of the Shawcross doctrine. The commissioner's analysis and conclusions are, in my own view, legally wrong on this point. To the extent that partisan considerations, because those are mentioned on four occasions in the report, were brought to bear, first, no one should have brought these concerns, and in fact McLellan's protocol would prevent any politically exempt staff from participating in any conversations going forward.Of course, Mr. Trudeau said, “I'm the member for Papineau.” His own evidence to the commissioner was anchored in his experience with his constituents and his understanding of the negative consequences of layoffs for communities. I'll tell you, if Andrew Scheer is elected and stands up for dairy farmers, or if I continue to stand up for animals, or if the member for Oshawa had said, “You know what, I'm the member for Oshawa and I'm concerned about the GM plant closing”, or if I say to Bill Blair, “I'm the member for Beaches—East York, and you're damn right, we have to do something about gun violence”, it's not so clear that these are always partisan considerations. As McLellan cites one respected scholar, and I think we can all, as partisan politicians, acknowledge this, in many instances the approach that is taken may benefit the public while also serving partisan interests. Lastly, public opinion will be the final arbiter of whether the primary motivation is non-partisan—and yes, motivations do matter. In my view, the primary motivation in this instance was to protect the public interest in jobs. The public interest was pursued improperly but at no time did the Prime Minister improperly further a private interest. The commissioner is legally wrong, and I would like him to sit right there so he could answer questions about how he got this analysis so completely wrong. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]Thank you, Mr. Erskine-Smith.Go ahead, quickly, Mr. Angus.NathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1410)[English]I have a point of clarification. I have great respect for my honourable colleague. I worked with him for four years. He's very complex. I just need to hear whether he is voting against or voting for having Mr. Dion speak to our committee. I just need to clarify that.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesNathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88687NathanielErskine-SmithNathaniel-Erskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Erskine-SmithNathaniel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith: (1410)[English]I'm voting for bringing Mr. Dion to this committee. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinCharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1410)[English]Thank you, my friend.NathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]Thank you for the clarification.We do have a speakers list again, and we have Mr. Poilievre.Go ahead.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1410)[English] I thank Mr. Erskine-Smith for his intervention. He claims that the Prime Minister was acting in the public and not the private interest. Of course, the Ethics Commissioner finds exactly the opposite. He finds that the Prime Minister was acting in the private interest of SNC-Lavalin, and improperly so, thus the guilty finding under section 9 of the Conflict of Interest Act. Yet Mr. Erskine-Smith goes on repeating what he admits he has no proof to state, which is that this was about jobs.I reiterate that the top four players on the Prime Minister's team who tried to get a special deal for SNC-Lavalin admit they have no evidence that jobs would be lost. The Prime Minister admitted it during a press conference. His top bureaucrat admitted it before committee. His top adviser, Gerald Butts, admitted it before committee, and his finance minister admitted it right to the Ethics Commissioner's face. Again, I will read the quote, from paragraph 126:When asked if he, or his office, had undertaken a study or analysis of the economic impacts of the Director of Public Prosecutions' decision, Mr. Morneau testified that none had been conducted. We know why. It's because they would not have gotten the answer they were looking for.SNC-Lavalin's work is rooted in construction, which typically has to be done on site, and therefore the jobs associated with that construction could not simply vanish into thin air. The headquarters is bound to stay here until 2024, and the company just signed a multi-decade lease on that headquarters in the city of Montreal.As for the excuse that SNC would be banned from federal contracts and therefore all kinds of jobs would be lost, one, obviously those contracts would go to companies that also employ Canadians, but two, that ban on bidding for federal contracts is a cabinet policy. If the Prime Minister simply wanted to preserve SNC's ability to bid on federal work after conviction, he could have allowed them to do so. He could simply have changed that policy to give the company an exemption and allow it to continue to bid on federal work. Mr. MacKinnon and Mr. Erskine-Smith both admit that they have no evidence whatsoever to substantiate the jobs claim. The jobs claim is Mr. Erskine-Smith's purported public interest, but if there is no evidence to support that this public interest actually existed, then there must have been a private interest at work.What motivated it? Let me quote a recent story from The Globe and Mail on this subject: Mario Dion, the federal ethics watchdog, laid bare the all-too-cozy underside of Corporate Canada in finding the Prime Minister and his team violated the Conflict of Interest Act by relentlessly pushing former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould to drop a criminal case against SNC-Lavalin. By naming names and detailing exactly what played out behind closed doors last fall, Mr. Dion showed how top executives at one of the country's largest banks came to feature prominently in this political drama. Mr. Dion's report details the role that Bank of Montreal board chairman Robert Prichard and BMO vice-chair Kevin Lynch played in lobbying the Trudeau Liberals on behalf of SNC-Lavalin, including multiple pitches the pair made to former president of the Treasury Board Scott Brison last October and November.Here's where things get far too cute: Mr. Brison stepped down as cabinet minister early this year to become vice-chair of the investment banking arm of, you guessed it, Bank of Montreal. The article continues:According to Mr. Dion, Mr. Prichard and Mr. Lynch first reached out to Mr. Brison in mid-October “on an unrelated matter,” then used the conversation to persuade the politician to give SNC-Lavalin a “remediation agreement.” Mr. Brison later told the Ethics Commissioner that “the company's concerns appeared sensible,” and he contacted Ms. Wilson-Raybould the same day “to bring the company's concerns to her attention.” And Ms. Wilson-Raybould said something to the effect of the lady's not for turning, explaining she could not interfere in the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin.(1415)Here we have just one instance. The chairman and the vice-chairman of one of Canada's most powerful banks, who also happen to be linked to SNC-Lavalin, ask the Treasury Board president to help the company get a deal. The same day he called the Attorney General and carried out their request, and what do you know? A few months later, he's all of a sudden a vice-chairman at that same bank. The members across expect us to believe blindly that the Prime Minister was just waging a war in favour of the public interest when he relentlessly hounded his Attorney General to interrupt the prosecution of the company. This is just one example of where there were clearly private interests at stake, clearly cozy relationships between extremely powerful people, and reciprocal back-scratching. We want to know, given that this whole jobs excuse has been debunked and the government, including Mr. MacKinnon, admits there is no evidence for it, what was the real motivation here? Why did the Prime Minister go to such lengths to protect this company? If there are more stories like this one where top bankers go to a cabinet minister who then jumps as soon as they ask him to and then gets a job at that bank four or five months later, then this government has a lot more to answer for, and if it's not afraid of the truth, all the members on the other side will vote to let us see that truth.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English]Thank you again, Mr. Poilievre. Next up is Mr. Angus.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1415)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I left home at 5 a.m. yesterday morning to catch my flight here. Ms. May comes from a little farther west than Thunder Bay. I know you come from some place out in the far west.This has been a fascinating discussion, but it has taken 81 minutes of our meeting. I am here to hear from Mr. Dion and we have good arguments. If Mr. Erskine-Smith puts his arguments, I'd rather they be put to Mr. Dion than to me, and I'd rather that Mr. Poilievre put his questions to Mr. Dion than to the Liberals, so I would ask that we get down to the business at hand and have Mr. Dion speak because we're running out of time.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English]Okay, Mr. Angus. We have two more speakers. We have Mr. Kent and then Ms. Raitt. CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (1415)[English]Thank you, Chair.I agree fully with my colleague Mr. Angus, and I thank all of the guests here today, with the exception of Mr. MacKinnon, who comes to us as a stranger to this committee, unaware of the practices and precedents of this committee and the fact that officers of Parliament report to this committee and have regularly reported to committee after filing their reports.I appreciate Mr. Erskine-Smith's defiance of the direction, I'm sure, from the PMO asking for lockstep support for Mr. MacKinnon, and the principled point that he has made several times this year. Mr. Erskine-Smith has said, for example, that the real question is the nature of the intervention made with the former attorney general. Mr. Erskine-Smith said on the record that this is impossible to answer without giving the former attorney general an opportunity to speak. She has asked for that opportunity, and it should be provided to her without limitation.That has been denied. That is a key part of the Ethics Commissioner's report, and I would suggest to the other three regular members of this committee that they ignore the direction Mr. MacKinnon is trying to lead them in, or to at least speak to this committee and tell us how you could possibly support his defiance of the precedent of hearing from the commissioner, as we did following the equally unacceptable report regarding the Prime Minister's acceptance of the illegal vacation last January 10. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]Thank you, Mr. Kent.I have just been signalled that the other speaker who was going to speak will not, so we can go to the vote on the motion.PeterKentHon.ThornhillPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (1420)[English]I'd like a recorded vote, please.BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]It will be a recorded vote. The motion is as follows:That, given the unprecedented nature of the Trudeau II Report, the Committee invite the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner to brief the Committee on his report, and that the Committee invite any further witnesses as required based on the testimony of the commissioner.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinPeterKentHon.ThornhillPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1420)[English] On a point of order, Mr. Chair, can you just indicate who has the right to vote in this particular proceeding? I know there are a lot of members here—Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]Thank you for bringing that up, Mr. Poilievre.We'll list the names here. Go ahead, Mr. Clerk, if you want to list them for Mr. Poilievre's question just for clarity's sake.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonMichaelMacPhersonMichaelMacPhersonMichael-MacPhersonInterventionThe Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Michael MacPherson): (1420)[English]We have Ms. Raitt, Mr. Kent, Mr. Angus, Mr. Baylis, Ms. McCrimmon, Ms. Vandenbeld, Madame Fortier, Mr. MacKinnon, Mr. Erskine-Smith....Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]And me if there is a tie. Is that clear, Mr. Poilievre?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinMichaelMacPhersonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1420)[English]Yes.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]We are good to proceed with the vote.(Motion negatived: nays 5, yeas 4)The Chair: Mr. Kent's motion is defeated.That said, we have a motion from Mr. Angus still to discuss.Go ahead, Mr. Angus.Committee businessCommittee witnessesConflict of Interest and Ethics CommissionerDecisions in committeeEthics and ethical issuesMotionsPolitical influenceRecorded divisionsReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinPierrePoilievreHon.CarletonCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1420)[English]Thank you.I just wanted to get it on the record so we could stop beating around the bush, because we knew with the appearance of our friend, the former head of the Liberal Party, at our committee for the first time in four years, this was going to be a whipped vote, and they were going to let our friend Erskine-Smith off the hook because he's from Beaches and he's a nice guy. They did the math. He had to explain why he was more than willing to shadow box with the Ethics Commissioner. I'm glad that at least we have it clear now.I'd like to bring my motion forward because there are a lot of witnesses that I think need to be heard.Do you want me to read out the motion?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Angus, please.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1420)[English]It reads, first, that the committee invite the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion to present his findings of the “Trudeau II Report”, which I think has been cancelled out by the committee vote. Therefore, I move:That the Committee invite Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Minister of Finance Bill Morneau, and senior adviser to the Prime Minister and former Chief of Staff to the Minister of Finance, Ben Chin, on account of their intimate connection to the matters at the heart of the report; And that the Committee invite the Clerk of the Privy Council to appear to explain his decision to not share critical Cabinet confidences with the Commissioner, who felt that his investigation was hampered by the refusal.Why is this important? It's because we saw throughout this whole scandal the Liberals shut down the justice committee and not hear from other witnesses. They shut down the ethics committee and the Prime Minister stood in the House day after day and stated that they were going to work with and trust the Ethics Commissioner. What we've learned from this report is very disturbing because we actually now know that this plan to tailor-make a law.... Now, Mr. Erskine-Smith is a lawyer and I didn't go to law school, but from watching all of my law shows on TV, can you write your own laws if you're the defendant? Well, apparently if you're really powerful, yes, you can. Who fixes it for you? According to the evidence Mr. Dion has brought forward, very early on in the new government the Prime Minister met with the CEO of SNC-Lavalin and they discussed writing a law to get them a get-out-of-jail card. It was the Prime Minister who began the direction. That's one of the reasons we need to hear from Prime Minister Trudeau. Why is that important? It is because the Liberal line out there is, “Hey, it hasn't hurt us in the polls, so who cares?” Well, I hear from people all the time about this, people who are appalled that the Prime Minister could break his word so easily to Canadians. The Prime Minister said he was going to be open and transparent. I think of the promise the Prime Minister made to the people of Grassy Narrows. I've been in Grassy Narrows. I've seen children suffering from Minamata disease and I saw the Prime Minister say that his government would clean that up once and for all—and he did squat. Actually, he did something else. He made fun of Grassy Narrows at a gathering of his rich, elite friends. Now if only Grassy Narrows had lobbyists, they could say, “We want this fixed”. How much would fixing the health centre at Grassy Narrows cost a government that is this powerful? It's chump change, it's peanuts, yet in four years he couldn't move to help children suffering from mercury contamination. However, after the CEO of SNC-Lavalin said, “Hey, we want a get-out-of-jail card”, the Liberals over there now have the gall to tell us that he only ever cared about the public interest, that he only cared about jobs, that there were 9,000 jobs at stake. When we look at the report, we would think that it was the responsibility of the finance minister of this country, Bill Morneau from the famous Morneau Shepell. If they cared about jobs, they would have cared about Sears workers, but no, the Sears workers are now being looked after by the family company Morneau Shepell.If it were 9,000 jobs, you would have thought they would have done due diligence. This is what shocked me. With Bill Morneau, I thought, “Okay, the guy wears very expensive suits and surely to God he knows how to run a business if he's really concerned about 9,000 jobs.” They wouldn't pull that number out of thin air, and yet the report shows that they had done nothing to prove this. My Liberal colleagues say it is actually the role of the justice department, that it should have been Jody Wilson-Raybould who undertook an assessment of the impacts.Again, I didn't go to law school so I ask, when you're the defendant, do you expect the prosecutor to have the responsibility of figuring out what it's going to cost if you get charged and convicted? What's the cost to the economy? Say you're a businessman and you're a corrupt businessman, is it the responsibility of the Attorney General to do a cost analysis? Well, I guess it only is if you're powerful enough to have the law written for you. Let's just go through some of the questions that were really concerning.(1425) Why do we need Bill Morneau here? I know I've been sort of picking on Bill, but what really shocks me is that Bill Morneau flies to Davos, Switzerland to meet with the head of SNC-Lavalin—a week after the so-called public consultation period on the SNC deferred prosecution agreement, a specific get out of jail card is given—and Bill Morneau tells the Ethics Commissioner he doesn't remember what they talked about. He doesn't remember that he flew to Davos, Switzerland to see the head of SNC-Lavalin and doesn't remember what they talked about. That's a month before this get out of jail card was slipped into an omnibus piece of legislation, and Bill Morneau doesn't remember that. This is what we're talking about here—the fact that they were able to write a law, a specific law, to help SNC in a specific case to get off its charges.Now, we learn from this report that once this law was put in, Ms. Wilson-Raybould was very concerned as the Attorney General that this law had been rushed because it was a law for one company for one case. She tried to distance herself from it. Why? She felt it would compromise her. I would love to have heard from Mr. Dion about this, but obviously we're not going to be allowed. The fact is that the Attorney General had raised concerns that a law was being implemented without proper due regard for the fact that a law must represent the interests of all Canadians. It cannot be written tailor-made for the defendant.Mr. Morneau again appears to interfere in this process when Ben Chin starts calling the Attorney General's office. Ben Chin says that the company's perception is that the process of negotiating a remediation agreement is taking too long. Oh my God, it must be really hard to be so powerful as to be able to write your own laws and then say, hey, how come we're not off the hook yet? So they phone the Attorney General's office to say, speed it up. Jessica Prince responds to Ben Chin that he is really close to being far over the line on the improper interference in the independence of the judiciary. That report is made available to Bill Morneau, and Bill Morneau tells the Ethics Commissioner that he doesn't remember seeing it. I mean, poor Bill. How could you have such a dodgy memory if you have to have so many facts and numbers and jobs? You can't remember that you've been told by your chief of staff that you are improperly interfering in an independent prosecution investigation. You know, when you speak to the Ethics Commissioner, you are under oath.Is Bill Morneau truthful that he doesn't remember the key meeting in Davos, Switzerland, that he doesn't remember what they talked about, that he doesn't remember receiving that email from his chief of staff that he was improperly advising? I can't believe that Bill Morneau didn't know that this concern had been raised. I would like to ask Bill Morneau why he told the Ethics Commissioner he never read it. It says one of two things: either Mr. Morneau is incompetent, or Mr. Morneau is not telling the truth to the Ethics Commissioner. Each of those is very troubling.We know the Liberals have told us that they got a report from Anne McLellan and everything would be rosy if we just followed that. Well, everything would be rosy as is, because you don't have to change the rules to stop interference in the independent prosecution; you just have to respect the rules. That's what the Liberals don't understand. Justin Trudeau doesn't believe the law of the land applies to him. We don't need a new report to say anything about the independence of the prosecutorial system in our country. It is established. It is based on a principle, and that principle is that you don't cross that line. I'm amazed at how many people were involved in this. This is where Ben Chin needs to talk. Why in God's name was Ben Chin calling the Attorney General's office demanding that they start to move more quickly on getting their pals at SNC-Lavalin off the hook? Who gave him that authority? They were discussing this agreement with industry, the Treasury Board, procurement, and not once with the Attorney General's office, so when Ms. Wilson-Raybould read the report, she said she was very surprised at the extent of the interference. There was a whole pattern, of everybody. It was all hands on deck in the Liberal Party. They all knew. They were all involved, and they were all breaking the law of Canada because Justin Trudeau told them to break the law, because Justin Trudeau said, “Hey, I'm the MP for Papineau and there's going to be an election soon.” Bouchard said, “Yeah, laws are great, but we have to get re-elected.”(1430) We have my Liberal colleagues putting the falsehood out that he was concerned about jobs. I think Mr. Erskine-Smith, whom I have great respect for—I don't like his shoes, but everything else I have great respect for—just told us that it was perfectly okay for the MP for Papineau to stand up for his region, just like Mr. Erskine-Smith would stand up for issues in his region and just like I stand up for jobs in my region. The difference is that I am a single member of Parliament, a backbencher. I am not the Prime Minister of this country, so I can stand up and say, hey, I need to help jobs in my riding. That's part of my job. That's part of Mr. Erskine-Smith's job, but the Prime Minister can't say, “I have an election up ahead. I have to get re-elected, and you have to rewrite me a law.” Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Jim Flaherty was the finance minister, I think I was the one who went after him over the fact that he had written a letter in support of a business while he was finance minister. Mr. Flaherty said he was acting as a local MP and that was his job. They ruled that you cannot do that as a finance minister, because you have so much extra power, a power that Mr. Erskine-Smith or Madame Fortier or I don't have. That's the difference.That's what the Conflict of Interest Act is based on. The higher up you are in terms of political power, the more responsibilities you have. So when Justin Trudeau says that he is the MP for Papineau and has to defend his patch, he is already breaking the Conflict of Interest Act and furthering someone else's interest. Having been on this committee for a number of years, I note Mr. Erskine-Smith's belief that you can only claim that financial interest is a personal financial interest—that if someone gives you money, you are advancing their interest. This has been a long-standing debate in terms of the role of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner—what defines interest. Mary Dawson, our previous one, was much more vague about this, and certainly when there were issues of people paying money into a riding association, she was saying, is that direct or indirect?Mr. Dion has given us a ruling, and that ruling is that the Prime Minister was furthering the financial interest of SNC-Lavalin, not furthering the interest of thousands of jobs and not furthering the interest of the Canadian people. If the Liberals believed he was wrong, they would have let him speak, but they're not letting him speak. They have shut him down. They have shut down our committee. They've obstructed the work of our committee, so we have to go to other witnesses, which is another reason why Mr. Trudeau is very essential to this. One of the most staggering statements I found in Mr. Dion's report is that we have an SNC lawyer, Mr. Prichard, talking to the former president of the Treasury Board about the case that Ms. Wilson-Raybould was overseeing. Mr. Prichard states:We are also considering other ways to make it easier for the Minister to engage and reverse the [Director of Public Prosecutions'] decision. In the end, however, it will take a deliberate decision from the center....That there, my friends, is collusion. That there is conspiracy, and that there is the lawyer for SNC-Lavalin phoning the head of the Treasury Board and saying they are going to corrupt the decision of the Attorney General and “make it easier” for them to overturn this, but it's going to come from the centre. Who is the centre? The centre is the Prime Minister of this country, Justin Trudeau, who in that moment is involved in the collusion and conspiracy to undermine the rule of law in this country. That's why the Liberals voted against Mr. Dion presenting his report, because once that's on the record, all other questions become much less important.Then out of this is that Ms. Wilson-Raybould seems to have done her job. She was told that it would be extraordinary, unprecedented for her to bring other people in. The idea that Beverley McLachlin should be brought in was cooked up by SNC's lawyer, who is a former Supreme Court justice, who then reached out to another former Supreme Court justice to get an opinion.(1435) In Canada, we trust the independence of the Supreme Court. We believe these people are representing our interests, but when you're SNC-Lavalin, you can hire someone from the Supreme Court and he'll phone one of his buddies on the Supreme Court and they'll get you a tailor-made opinion, and then they'll go to Beverley McLachlin. Did anyone tell Beverley McLachlin, “Listen, Jody Wilson's not playing ball here. We need you to give us something so that we can put pressure on her”? As I said, this lady was not for turning. She did not give into it because, knowing that the law had been written specifically for SNC, she was concerned that if she acted, it would have compromised her role as the Attorney General of this country. That was what she said, which leads me to the other reason we need to hear from Justin Trudeau.Mr. Dion's report states that when Mr. Trudeau's attempt was thwarted, he set out to professionally discredit the Attorney General of Canada. We know this from seeing how, when this became public, one story after another was leaked by the Liberal war machine painting Ms. Wilson-Raybould as troublesome and as taking orders from her father. What a diminution of the role of a woman attorney general. There was one attack after another. They actually lined up a whole bunch of the Liberal caucus to go out to the cameras and trash Jody Wilson's reputation, to blame her, to say that she was a troublemaker, that she didn't play well with others, that she wasn't good enough because she wouldn't go along. The Prime Minister has said it's really important to be open and to be feminist, but you have to play ball. She didn't play ball, and it says here in the report that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau attempted to discredit her. I think it's staggering that if you're standing up for the rule of law in this country, they will orchestrate a campaign to trash your reputation. That needs accountability. I would have preferred to ask Mr. Dion about this directly, because Mr. Dion is not making these statements out of thin air. He's making them on the evidence he found, and we don't have access to him to hear him speak because the Liberals are obstructing this, just as they obstructed everything else. That is what got them into trouble, but we could ask Mr. Trudeau.Finally, Mr. Chair, I just want to end on the issue of obstruction, which we've seen today and which has been the pattern, as everybody in the media has been saying would happen because you can see the pattern of obstruction. What's very shocking is that nine witnesses were blocked from giving testimony, nine witnesses were denied having access to speak to the Ethics Commissioner. The Ethics Commissioner should have been allowed to come to our committee because it is our job to be the oversight committee for the Ethics Commissioner, and if someone is interfering with the work of an ethics investigation, that needs to be reported to Parliament. The problem is that it's the Prime Minister of the country who is being investigated. As I said earlier, the principle of the Conflict of Interest Act and the code and the lobbying code is that the more powerful you are, the higher your standard of ethical accountability must be. You can be a newbie MP and make a mistake and you can get into trouble, but there's a difference when you're the Prime Minister of this country. Why did they interfere? They claim cabinet confidence. Well, obviously cabinet confidence didn't mean all that much when Jody Wilson-Raybould was meeting Gerry Butts and SNC was pretty much sitting under the table and listening in. They didn't seem to think cabinet confidence meant diddly-squat then. They silenced Ms. Wilson-Raybould. They silenced Jane Philpott's ability to speak. They've attempted to use cabinet confidence to interfere with the work of the Ethics Commissioner. If this stands, then what the Prime Minister's Office is saying is that he is above the law of the land because the only law that applies to the Prime Minister is the Conflict of Interest Act. If you're going to use the power of the Prime Minister's Office to forbid the Ethics Commissioner from gathering evidence, then he can't do his job. We need to find out. I would like to ask Justin Trudeau what he meant when he said, well, we don't want to create any “troublesome” precedents. Well, yeah, I bet. When you're under investigation, it's troublesome. It's the same when you're the defendant—and my colleague Mr. Erskine-Smith can correct me if I'm wrong because I did not go to law school—because my understanding is that generally the defendant doesn't get to write the law. The defendant doesn't get to call the prosecutor's office and say, “Hey, speed it up and get me off the hook. I'm important”. That's not how it works.(1440) SNC, as the defendant, should not be allowed to write its own laws. And the Prime Minister, as the person under investigation, does not and should not have the right to obstruct the investigation because he finds it troublesome. Since they're so concerned about Mr. Dion being able to testify about what he found, I would say that if we are not allowed to hear from the commissioner who reports to our committee and we're being obstructed on this, then the reasonable thing would be to have Mr. Chin come, because he got promoted, didn't he? For all his interference with the independence of the prosecution, he got promoted. Gerry Butts is back on the campaign bus, so obviously they're all laughing and slapping each other on the back, because breaking laws is what Liberals are doing and they're getting away with it.The Prime Minister needs to come because he's the one who said, “Yes, thanks for the report finding me guilty, but whatever, I'm carrying on”, as should Bill Morneau, the man with the amazing disappearing memory. On that, I do remember that Bill Morneau forgot he owned a villa in the south of France, so I guess it's possible. Who among us has not forgotten that we own a villa in the south of France?Frank, I know, a couple of times you just dropped it and never even mentioned it, and then it was like, “Oh yes, geez, I can't remember where I put my keys.” So maybe he flew to Davos to meet with the head of SNC-Lavalin just prior to this omnibus legislation and maybe he forgot. But maybe he didn't, and that's why Mr. Morneau needs to testify before our committee. Chin, BenClerk of the Privy CouncilCommittee businessCommittee witnessesCriminal prosecutionsEthics and ethical issuesMorneau, BillMotionsPolitical influenceReferences to membersSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.Trudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus, as always. Next up is Mr. Erskine-Smith. CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayNathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88687NathanielErskine-SmithNathaniel-Erskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Erskine-SmithNathaniel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith: (1445)[English]This is not a comment, Charlie, that I think Peter Kent is more reasonable than you all the time, but in this instance, while his motion—BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1445)[English]On a point of clarification, he just attacked me. Tell him to stop.NathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkNathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88687NathanielErskine-SmithNathaniel-Erskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Erskine-SmithNathaniel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith: (1445)[English]Mr. Kent's motion was, I think, a reasonable one. I think this particular motion is an overreach. It's inconsistent with the past practice of this committee and it is effectively.... I am repeating myself from previous occasions, but we are not an investigatory body and it is treating us as one, so I will be voting against the motion. I was happy to support Mr. Kent's motion to invite Mr. Dion, but inviting an endless stream of witnesses is not something I can support.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinCharlieAngusTimmins—James BayBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]Thank you, Mr. Erskine-Smith.Next up is Ms. May. NathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/2897ElizabethMayElizabeth-MaySaanich—Gulf IslandsGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MayElizabeth_GP.jpgInterventionMs. Elizabeth May: (1445)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.I just want to make a couple of quick points in response to some of the points put forward by my colleagues. I am not a voting member at this table, of course.First of all, it's a really hard issue for all of us here around the table, but I have to say that—following somewhat from your point, Mr. Erskine-Smith—I found it unhelpful to describe this case as the Prime Minister telling people that he wanted them to break the law. For what it's worth, I maintain that, to this day, I don't think the Prime Minister understands that what he did was wrong, which is maybe equally troubling or more troubling. I think he's maintained that view because the people around him were overwhelmed by the fact that former Supreme Court judges were telling them what to do and were undermining their Attorney General, who happened to be a younger woman and indigenous, and this part of the story bothers me. What should the former attorney general have done? I want to remind my friend Mr. Erskine-Smith of her testimony to the justice committee. She said to those lobbying her on behalf of SNC-Lavalin that if they have additional evidence, that goes to the decision-maker, who in this case is Kathleen Roussel, director of public prosecutions. Our former attorney general said, on the evidence, that she had told those lobbying for SNC-Lavalin that if they had a representation on a threat to jobs and they send it to her, she would ensure that it is put before the director of public prosecutions so she can take it into consideration. Such a letter was never sent. It's also disturbing to me that so many people—and I would like to have before the ethics committee many of them who were mentioned in the testimony of former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould—were given access by our former attorney general to the section 13 report, which is highly confidential, of the former director of public prosecutions. They declined to read it and seem to have lost it, including a number of political staff in the PMO, the deputy minister of the Department of Justice herself and the former clerk of the Privy Council.To Mr. Erskine-Smith's point that a corporation can have good people and bad people, that's all true, but this corporation is charged in its corporate state; it is charged as a corporate person. There are no individual officers charged. The corporation must face full trial, which is why I go to one last point, Mr. Chair. If we're looking for a real motive, we don't have to look far. Some of the most celebrated corporate giants in this country are businessmen with good reputations, people like Gwyn Morgan, former chair of Encana and a major fossil fuel lobbyist against climate action, who was chair of the board throughout the time the alleged bribery took place, and chair of the governance committee. There were a lot of people on the board of directors—whom I won't list—whose reputations could be hurt if what I suspect might be heard in the evidence in open court is actually heard, because these are not just bribery charges of a small nature. This is about working hand in glove with the Gadhafi regime and paying millions of dollars. By the way, as to the whole idea that SNC-Lavalin has been washed pure as snow, they haven't changed their auditor. Deloitte was their auditor then and Deloitte is their auditor now, and somehow never noticed that $50 million went missing in bribes in Libya.I think what we're looking at is corporate Canada exerting its influence to not have to face a full trial because reputations would be harmed. I think that's enough of a motive to start leaning on the Prime Minister, the finance minister, the President of Treasury Board and all their friends. We need to ensure that Canadians understand that this isn't about small things and the Shawcross principle. That's a bridge too far for most Canadians to care about, and I accept that; I get that. But it's really important that Canadians know that no future government, no future prime minister, should ever allow pressure to be brought to bear to stop a full and open trial of the alleged criminal activities of this corporation.Under the principles of deferred prosecution agreements, as understood in international law, economic disadvantage to the corporation is not a relevant factor. We need to understand that we should protect workers always, but we must not protect criminality because the people whose reputations could be hurt are powerful. You bet they're powerful: They've blocked climate action for quite a while.I am afraid that this corporation needs to face a trial on the evidence that Kathleen Roussel, as director of public prosecutions, decided under a section 13 report disqualifies them from a deferred prosecution agreement by law. (1450) That's what our former attorney general looked at. That's why she exercised her due diligence to ensure the decision by the director of public prosecutions. I agree with Mr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith once again. It was a very good move that the former Conservative government brought in the director of public prosecutions and insulated that office from political interference. That's all quite right and good. Canadians need to know that this is about a corporation charged with crimes we don't know, up to and including killing people—we don't know. Evidence is under the section 13 report. We need to have it come before an open court. That's why I think the pressure was brought to bear. Powerful men have powerful friends. I still think that our Prime Minister needs to understand—and I don't think he does—that what he did was wrong, and he needs to apologize to Jane Philpott, Jody Wilson-Raybould and the people of Canada.Committee businessCriminal prosecutionsEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.Trudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]Thank you, Ms. May.I have two more speakers, Mr. Kent and Ms. Ramsey. If anybody else wishes to speak, we have about an hour and seven minutes left.Mr. Kent, go ahead.ElizabethMaySaanich—Gulf IslandsPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (1450)[English]Thank you, Chair. Very briefly, I would like to thank Mr. Erskine-Smith for his vote in support of my motion earlier today. I say that even as I intend to enthusiastically support Mr. Angus in his motion when it comes to a vote. I must say again that this is a second chance for the other four Liberal members of this committee to stand up and do the job that they sit on this committee for, which is to defend the practices and protocols of this committee as we have practised in the past, the precedents. It seems obvious that they are taking direction this afternoon, Mr. Erskine-Smith aside, from the PMO, from a stranger to this committee who obviously thinks that the sorts of practices that are accepted in committees on which he has participated are acceptable here. They are not. I would suggest again that this is a second chance for the four Liberals opposite to stand up, to comment, to justify the no vote they cast in the first motion and the no vote that I understand they are going to cast in this motion.Thank you.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]Thank you, Mr. Kent.Ms. Ramsey, go ahead.PeterKentHon.ThornhillTraceyRamseyEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88745TraceyRamseyTracey-RamseyEssexNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RamseyTracey_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Tracey Ramsey: (1450)[English] I just want to pick up on a lot of things said by my colleagues here, many of which I agree with. I would like to talk a little bit about the importance of having Minister Morneau and Ben Chin appear before the committee. This is something that we attempted to do at the justice committee. Of course, we were unable to, and I really reject Mr. MacKinnon's characterization of those meetings as being comprehensive or that we had enough testimony at the justice committee. Nothing could be further from the truth. There were multiple attempts made to have many other people come before the committee, because, quite frankly, we still have only a part of the story. I believe I even heard a reference made on the other side today to Ms. Wilson-Raybould saying she didn't have anything else to say. That was because what she had said was within the scope of what she was allowed to say. She certainly has more to say, and I think we all accept that now.I would also like to echo my colleague and say that the Prime Minister owes an apology to Ms. Wilson-Raybould, to Ms. Philpott and to Canadians. The Prime Minister has repeatedly stood up and said he's never understood this as being some type of political interference, yet when we look at the report by the Ethics Commissioner, we see that starting back in mid-August 2018. Ben Chin was going to Jessica Prince, and right away she was saying to him that it could be perceived as improper political interference. Therefore, at the very beginning of this, someone was laying out that this could be perceived as political interference. Now, I don't believe that Mr. Chin was operating on his own behalf, that he just decided to go over to speak to the Attorney General's staff. I believe he was under the direction of the minister he works for, Mr. Morneau. If we could hear from Mr. Chin, I anticipate that being one of the questions. What was the direction given to him in those conversations that happened with Jessica Prince? In mid-August 2018, we already have two staff people having a conversation about potential political interference. Then we move on and as we go through the story, we see that on September 19 Jody Wilson-Raybould went to Mr. Morneau in the House and told him quite clearly that his staff needed to stop contacting her office on the matter because they were undermining the fundamental tenets of democracy and prosecutorial independence.Here's Minister Morneau again involved in the story, who, again, was being told directly about political interference. Are you telling me that the Minister of Finance, when being told by the Attorney General and Minister of Justice that he is potentially even touching that line, does not go to talk to the Prime Minister? This is what we need to know. We need to know and understand what was said at that cabinet table, because clearly there are a lot of players, and potentially they did notify the Prime Minister and say, “Listen, you're getting very close to something dangerous here; you have to stop what you're doing.” Are you telling me that no one at that cabinet table, including Mr. Morneau, whose fingerprints and those of his staff are all over this report, notified the Prime Minister that what he was doing was wrong? I cannot comprehend that happening. For the Prime Minister to repeatedly stand up and say that he doesn't believe he did this, that he doesn't know what this would be interpreted as, whatever it is he's trying to say, is incomprehensible. Quite frankly, it is incomprehensible for him to say that he accepts the report and some kind of responsibility but doesn't understand this, when clearly there were many people within the circle who were aware of this and had an obligation and responsibility to go to the Prime Minister and tell him.Then we get to November 2018. On November 20, the PCO sent a memo telling him not to meet with Mr. Bruce or any representative from SNC to discuss the case in order to avoid public perception of political interference. Again, he's notified, this time by the PCO. It appears as though there were people trying to inform him. I hope they were, because it's their obligation and they should be doing that, and yet he's ignoring that. There's another reference to it on November 22. Again, PMO staffers were involved—Bouchard and Marques. Are you telling me they were all just out there operating independently and not reporting back to the Prime Minister, not reporting back to the minister, and that the Minister of Finance isn't reporting back to the Prime Minister of Canada? These are some serious systemic problems. (1455) I know we don't have the answer, because now we're not going to be able to have the Ethics Commissioner come before us. I would implore us to listen to and hear from all of these players. We need to hear from Minister Morneau.I'll leave my comments at that.I think there's such a strong argument. I don't understand how the Minister of Finance in our country is pretending that he doesn't remember. He's directing his staff to do things that they're apparently not telling him about or having conversations with him about. There are many questions.One of the questions we have for the Ethics Commissioner is whether or not he thinks Mr. Morneau acted improperly. Canadians have a right to know, and this committee should pursue that effort.I'll leave my comments at that.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Thank you, Ms. Ramsey.Next up we have Mr. Angus.TraceyRamseyEssexCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1500)[English] Thank you.I want to address a few things. First, I want to remind my colleague Mr. Erskine-Smith that actually we are an investigative body here. We have subpoenaed evidence, we've issued summonses, and we've seized documents. We have been more than willing at this committee to use the force we have, but the fundamental job we have is to have the officers of Parliament report to us, and today the Liberals voted not to allow the Ethics Commissioner to present his report.One of the other officers of Parliament who report to us is the lobbying commissioner. We've had very little relationship with Madame Bélanger, the new commissioner, but the previous commissioner, Karen Shepherd, was an extraordinary force for accountability, and I'm hoping Madame Bélanger will do the same thing. I have written to her because I am very concerned.Something we've raised numerous times as the New Democratic Party is the problem with the difference between the conflict of interest obligations and the Lobbying Act. How is it possible that the Prime Minister can be found to be privately furthering the interests of a corporation, yet that corporation is not found to have been improperly lobbying or vice versa? We've had situations where the Lobbying Act has been ruled against individual lobbyists but not against the public office holder. I really think it's important for Madame Bélanger to investigate, given that we have not been able to get answers from Mr. Dion because the Liberals have obstructed his speaking. However, the pattern of intense lobbying that involved writing an actual law while they were the defendant is very concerning. The Lobbying Act is clear. You cannot put a public office holder in a conflict of interest or in a compromised position, and that's what was being done, right down to the statement that they needed the power “from the center” to put that pressure on to force Ms. Wilson-Raybould to change her mind. The issue of lobbying is something that we really need to deal with.I want to go to Ms. May's point about the international implications. I think this is very important, and I'm really glad that she framed it in this manner. The idea that this was about Canadian jobs and Canadian pensions is ridiculous when we see the pattern of corruption and bribery charges that have been brought against SNC-Lavalin in jurisdiction after jurisdiction. To be barred by the World Bank, you have to be pretty bad. We're dealing with a lot of jurisdictions where the rule of law is very tepid, to say the least. The allegations that have come out of Libya are shocking, and Canada has to have international credibility that we believe in the rule of law. To that end, we now know that the OECD anti-bribery unit is putting the Trudeau government on watch because they've seen how this government has attempted to shut down the SNC-Lavalin investigation. I agree with Ms. May that what we're looking at here is not about the jobs of individual Canadians, because the construction work has to be done. They are bidding on projects that many companies are bidding on in Canada. This is certainly going to be about some very powerful people, going back 20 years at least, who are very tied to both the Liberals and the previous Conservative government. Do I mention Arthur Porter here? Here was a man who ended his days in a Panamanian jail. He was given a position by former prime minister Harper to oversee CSIS. That's the power of these people. In terms of Arthur Porter's involvement with the McGill hospital scandal, those court cases still have to come, but the international implications of Canada's shutting down an investigation into one of their own companies, which has been found to be involved in corruption and bribery internationally, make Canada a country that is not credible on the international rule of law. That is what the OECD anti-bribery unit has announced. It's why they are investigating.What we are witnessing today is the obstruction of a committee, forbidding an officer of Parliament from doing his job, which is to report to a committee on a finding of guilt against a prime minister of Canada for furthering the interests of a corporation facing corruption and bribery charges. This is a company that has been barred around the world because of its repeated violations. This is very serious, and we can see the power they have.(1505) It is the corrosive power of the one per cent to be able to call the Prime Minister's Office to say, “We want you to write us a law.” It is the corrosive power of the one per cent to get a former Supreme Court justice as their lawyer, and then to have him call another Supreme Court justice to say, “We need your help. Give us legal advice.” They were undermining the Attorney General of this country. I don't know if I need to point it out, but Mr. Iacobucci, of whom I think Mr. Wernick said that he was no shrinking violet.... They wanted to please him. They wanted to keep him happy, yet he is representing a defendant against the Government of Canada and he has also been chosen by the Liberal government to be the key point person on the Trans Mountain consultations. How can you be so incestuous with the powerful and the rich that you could have someone who is fighting Canada in court also calling the Prime Minister's Office saying, “Hey, I want you to change the law so I don't have to go to court, and by the way, I will be your voice in negotiations with one of the most important factors”, which is the first nation consultations on the pipeline expansion.Clearly, if this goes to court, a lot of very politically powerful people are implicated. That's what the Prime Minister was concerned about, because if the Prime Minister was concerned about people's jobs, he would have done something for the Sears workers. He did nothing. He would have done something for the auto workers in Oshawa. He did nothing. However, when it came to the rich and powerful who were connected to SNC, who have been found in many jurisdictions to be involved in some reprehensible behaviour.... Building torture prisons for Gadhafi and making money out of that is not acceptable. There are international implications. This is why I want the Prime Minister to come to explain why he was so apprised, from the get-go, of passing this law. It is not just something that's going to get shut down in the short term because the Liberals have to get to an election. This is going to be a stench that hangs over Canada's international reputation if SNC is allowed to have that much power to interfere in the independence of the prosecution system of this country. We have to have the rule of law. We have to be able to show it because we are a country that is involved around the world and we cannot be seen, in any manner, to be favouring our own corporations over the rule of law and their obligations to meet the highest standards of ethics and legality around the world, whether it's in Montreal at the McGill hospital, in Bangladesh or in Libya. All corporations must have respect for the rule of law, and the Prime Minister must have respect for the rule of law. What we've seen here, and what we are seeing today, is that they don't have respect for the rule of law. To them, it's about helping the rich and powerful. That is the corrosive power of the one per cent, and that's what has to be called out. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus. We have Ms. Raitt, and then Mr. Weir.Ms. Raitt, go ahead. CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1505)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Very briefly, I wanted to follow up on a point from Mr. Erskine-Smith in his very first intervention, regarding improperly furthering private interests. I do so because we're not going to hear from the Ethics Commissioner to defend his report, so I thought I'd step into his shoes for a quick two minutes.The Ethics Commissioner, on page 45, for those who care, does go into a deep understanding and a deep dive on what is improperly furthering private interests. What may be of interest to the committee is that the former ethics commissioner Mary Dawson in fact wrote a paper and gave a number of speeches with respect to whether or not there had been improper furthering of private interests. I would just like to read this into the record, because this is the important part.It is agreed by the Ethics Commissioner, and I think by a number of people around the table, that indeed the conduct of the Prime Minister was improper in the way he tried to further the interest. I do believe it's also agreed in plain that the private interest of SNC-Lavalin is very evident as well. They stood to receive a huge gain should they be successful in getting the criminal charges diverted in another direction. That's why they put so much effort into it. Therefore, we know that it was improper. We know that there was a private interest involved. The question comes down to how we can do anything as politicians if we're not allowed to stand up for the public interest. I would just read this to the committee, because I think Mary Dawson did it well when she talked about this fact: We have had several cases focussing on the general prohibition, found in both the Act and the Members’ Code, against improperly furthering the private interests of someone who may not be a friend or relative. The qualifier “improperly” reflects that fact that Members and public office holders routinely and legitimately further the private interests of particular groups or individuals through the formulation and implementation of public policy. Politicians, in particular, should be able to voice their support for fellow politicians and particular political agendas, and should not be restricted from doing so on the grounds that it may incidentally result in furthering particular private interests.However, this is a very different situation because the focus of the action in question was really only ever on the private interests of SNC-Lavalin. The improper steps that the Prime Minister took in four different instances, which the Ethics Commissioner enunciates in his report, and the number of times political considerations came into the motivation for seeking to make the Attorney General change her mind clearly show that it was improper. It fails the test of improper. It is clearly within the realm of private interest, and the Ethics Commissioner I'm sure would be able to explain, as I have, that it is not about whether or not a politician can lobby on behalf of their company, or a situation. What it comes down to is whether or not you do it in a proper manner, and this clearly was improper. That is the crux and the nub of the entire report. The Ethics Commissioner found that the Prime Minister broke the law because he improperly furthered the private interests of SNC-Lavalin and attempted to get them diverted from a criminal case into a different stream that would be more beneficial for them financially and, I would expect, reputationally too.Thank you for that.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Thank you, Ms. Raitt.Mr. Weir.LisaRaittHon.MiltonErinWeirRegina—Lewvan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31796ErinWeirErin-WeirRegina—LewvanCo-operative Commonwealth Federation CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WeirErin_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Erin Weir: (1510)[English]Thanks very much. Since we seem to have entered a bit of a broader discussion of the SNC-Lavalin case, I just want to make the point that I think it would have been far preferable had there been a more robust investigation and prosecution of the specific executives involved in alleged wrongdoing, rather than being left in this scenario of prosecuting the company as a whole, which inevitably will have negative consequences for people who had no involvement at all in the wrongdoing. Whether or not members of the committee believe the figure of 9,000 jobs, I don't think anyone would dispute that going after the company as a whole is going to have negative consequences for a lot of people who are totally blameless in this thing. I do think one of the key take-aways from the SNC-Lavalin controversy is that we should have much more effective prosecution of the individual corporate executives who are involved in wrongdoing, rather than relying on the legal fiction of corporate personhood to prosecute whole enterprises.Thank you.Committee businessCriminal prosecutionsEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.Trudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English] Thank you, Mr. Weir, for that.I have no other people on the speakers list.Are we ready—ErinWeirRegina—LewvanPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (1510)[English]A recorded vote, please.BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]We'll have a recorded vote.(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 3)The Chair: Ms. Raitt, do you have a comment?Chin, BenClerk of the Privy CouncilCommittee businessCommittee witnessesDecisions in committeeEthics and ethical issuesMorneau, BillMotionsPolitical influenceRecorded divisionsReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinPeterKentHon.ThornhillLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1510)[English]I have a quick motion, Mr. Chair, if I may.I assume it will be disposed of very quickly, but I thought I'd give it a shot nonetheless.Given the fact that we're not going to hear from the Ethics Commissioner, and given the fact that we do have this book that is out there from Aaron Wherry called Promise and Peril that seems to indicate the Prime Minister has breached cabinet confidentiality, I move: That the Committee request Aaron Wherry, author of “Promise and Peril”, a biography of Justin Trudeau, table all recordings, notes and other materials that he collected during his interviews of the Prime Minister that relate to materials that fall outside of the Order in Council—Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[English]Point of order.LisaRaittHon.MiltonBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Ms. Raitt, there's a point of order.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[English]Do we have notice of this motion?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1515)[English]We don't need it.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinStevenMacKinnonGatineauBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, it's one of those things in committee. It's nice to do, but it's not required that she give notice of her motion.The motion has come up on the floor today. She is therefore in order to present that motion.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinLisaRaittHon.MiltonStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[Translation]Is it in French too?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Ms. Raitt, do you have it in French?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinStevenMacKinnonGatineauLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1515)[English]I do not.I ask the indulgence of the committee to still introduce it.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[Translation]No, they—Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinLisaRaittHon.MiltonPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35699PeterKentHon.Peter-KentThornhillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/KentPeter_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Peter Kent: (1515)[English]It's always accepted. Well, you're a stranger.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinStevenMacKinnonGatineauLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1515)[English]It will be translated simultaneously as I read it.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinPeterKentHon.ThornhillBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]To be in order as well it's not required that it be in French. She is completely in order to present her motion as she is stating. Continue on.Is this a point of order, Mr. Angus?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinLisaRaittHon.MiltonCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1515)[English]No.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Ms. Raitt, please finish, if you would.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1515)[English]I'll start from the beginning.I move:That the Committee request Aaron Wherry, author of “Promise and Peril”, a biography of Justin Trudeau, table all recordings, notes and other materials that he collected during his interviews of the Prime Minister that relate to materials that fall outside of the Order in Council waiving Cabinet confidence in the SNC Lavalin matter so that the Committee can determine whether the Prime Minister breached Cabinet confidence.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Ms. Raitt, can you say that one more time for the record?LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1515)[English]More slowly? I will.BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Exactly.LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1515)[English]I move:That the Committee request Aaron Wherry, author of “Promise and Peril”, a biography of Justin Trudeau, table all recordings, notes and other materials that he collected during his interviews of the Prime Minister that relate to materials that fall outside of the Order in Council waiving Cabinet confidence in the SNC Lavalin matter so that the Committee can determine whether the Prime Minister breached Cabinet confidence.Committee businessCommittee requesting documentsEthics and ethical issuesMotionsPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Thank you, Ms. Raitt.I have Mr. Angus to speak to the motion.LisaRaittHon.MiltonCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25470CharlieAngusCharlie-AngusTimmins—James BayNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AngusCharlie_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Charlie Angus: (1515)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. You've been an excellent chair these past four years. I want to thank you for being non-partisan and keeping everybody on the straight and narrow. I have enormous respect for your work.I have enormous respect for Ms. Raitt, but I have to vote against this in the strongest terms.We cannot use our power as parliamentarians to target journalists. We cannot demand that journalists turn over evidence. We cannot demand that journalists testify before us. That is not the role of our committee. The role of our committee is to hold parliamentarians to account, not journalists. Sometimes they don't write the nicest things about me. I can't bring them forward and ask them why; that's their role. There has to be a strong separation between the role of journalism and the role of parliamentarians, and that's our committee's role.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Thank you, Mr. Angus.I'll go to Mr. Erskine-Smith.CharlieAngusTimmins—James BayNathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East York//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88687NathanielErskine-SmithNathaniel-Erskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Erskine-SmithNathaniel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith: (1515)[English]Mr. Angus made a point that I was going to make as well.I think it's improper for any number of reasons. It is a standing practice for our committee that there be notice. I would have expected some conversation in advance if there wasn't to be notice. Regardless, forget process, on substance it's not something I can support. I completely agree with Mr. Angus.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]Thank you, Mr. Erskine-Smith.We'll go back to Ms. Raitt.NathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1515)[English]Thank you.I appreciate the commentary of the two members.If it is about whether that becomes public, I understand the concerns. My concern is that the Ethics Commissioner should have all the information that he was not allowed to have with respect to cabinet confidence. That is being freely given to other people and digested in a way that is more, I would say, sympathetic to the Prime Minister. I'll withdraw the motion, because I believe that the members don't agree with me that it's important to move ahead.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English] The committee would have to agree to have that motion withdrawn. Is it the will of the committee to do that?You'd like to vote on it.Is there any further discussion on the motion?LisaRaittHon.MiltonStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[English]A recorded vote.BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/72035BobZimmerBob-ZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZimmerBob_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]It's a recorded vote.(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 2)The Chair: Is there any further discussion today? I believe we've exhausted the motions and are ready to head home. Thank you, again, for coming to Ottawa.We're adjourned. Committee businessCommittee requesting documentsDecisions in committeeEthics and ethical issuesMotionsPolitical influenceRecorded divisionsReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)): (1255)[English] Good afternoon, colleagues. Welcome to the 151st meeting of the foreign affairs and international development committee. I particularly want to thank members who have come from across the country to be here for this session today. Today's meeting is to consider a request, under Standing Order 106(4), made by four members of the committee. I understand, MP Alleslev, that you're going to introduce and speak to that motion.Please take the floor.ChinaInternational relationsMeeting requested by four members of the CommitteePolitical influenceLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev (Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, CPC): (1300)[English]Thank you very much. As you know, the Conservatives have called this emergency committee meeting because of reports that the Prime Minister has used the power of his office to attempt to muzzle private citizens and respected former career diplomats David Mulroney and Guy Saint-Jacques. These are serious allegations that merit an investigation, and of course it's our hope that this committee will agree to and support our request today.As Mr. Mulroney said in some of the public statements that he's made, discouraging private citizens with expertise in foreign relations from speaking freely is fundamentally an undemocratic idea. Unfortunately, the Prime Minister has shown a clear pattern of silencing those who would speak out against him. We're concerned that Canadians no longer have confidence in the Prime Minister when he says that he did not direct these civil servants to try to silence his critics.We saw the Prime Minister attempt to defend himself with the same language that he used during the SNC-Lavalin scandal and various other affairs, such as the Vice-Admiral Norman affair and a trip to India, and we obviously do not necessarily believe that. As Canadians know, Trudeau's early denials in the SNC-Lavalin scandal have turned out to be false, and now we're wondering what the case is with this affair.It is clear that the Prime Minister has shown a pattern of behaviour of attempting to silence anyone who would challenge or criticize the government's approach to anything. The foreign affairs committee today must find in favour of our motion to be able to get to the bottom of this. Anything less would be a cover-up. We would like to move the following motion: That, the Committee invite the following witnesses to appear: a. Minister of Foreign Affairs Chrystia Freeland; b. Paul Thoppil, Assistant Deputy Minister for Asia-Pacific, Global Affairs Canada; c. David Mulroney, as an individual; d. Guy Saint-Jacques, as an individual; e. Any other individual that the Committee deems relevantthat pursuant to Section 10(3) of the Parliament of Canada Act, the witnesses are to be sworn in; that each witness appear individually on a panel, for no less than one hour; and that all witnesses appear no later than August 15, 2019. Now, Mr. Chair, I'd like to speak to the motion.ChinaCommittee witnessesFreedom of speechInternational relationsMotionsPolitical influencePublic Service and public servantsMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[English]Please continue, Ms. Alleslev.LeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1300)[English] Excellent.There are three main reasons why we feel this motion must be supported. First and foremost, this is about preserving free speech in a democracy, and about the non-partisan nature of our federal public service. Second, it's also about the rapidly deteriorating relations with China and what the government's policy actually is on China. Third, and almost as important, it's about the checks and balances of the institution of this government and the balance that a House of Commons standing committee puts forward in holding the government to account.What do I mean when I say “free speech”? Clearly, we are in a democracy and, therefore, people who have expertise based on the history of their careers and the experience they have gained over their careers can inform citizens on government behaviour. Whether it was an academic career, a financial management career, an industry career or the public service is irrelevant. They have gained experience, and once they are private citizens, they have the opportunity to inform the public. We cannot have a Prime Minister's Office, or the Prime Minister himself, for whatever reason, looking to prevent anyone in this country from having the opportunity to speak freely to an issue and to inform citizens on that issue. A democracy is only as good as the information that citizens have. We know from the media reports that part of the conversation is that the PMO directed not to speak out against the government because this is an election year. Even more so in an election year do we need to have the opportunity to have experts speak out, so that when citizens go to the polls, they have valid and informed information so that they can make a decision on whether or not the current government is the right government to lead them, going forward.China, and our relationship with China, is one of the most important or significant issues facing the nation at the moment, with two people who are imprisoned in China—wrongfully, in Canada's opinion—and the serious economic impact of our exports of soy, pork and other grains being prevented from getting into China. This is a significant diplomatic and economic relationship and we need to know what experts think of the government's approach before we go to the polls.We absolutely need to understand whether or not this Prime Minister has continued a pattern of behaviour of attempting to silence those who are experts or private citizens from being able to provide informed opinions, upon which Canadians, in a democracy, can make informed decisions about the shape and direction of their nation, and of course, the expertise of the government. Secondly, we're looking at the partisan nature of the public service. If, in fact, the Prime Minister's Office is attempting to take non-partisan public officials and arm-wrestle them into behaving in a way that is partisan, if in fact that's what happened when they were asking the assistant deputy minister, Mr. Thoppil, to call these former diplomats and tell them that it's an election year and that they need to check in with the government on the government's policy, then the very fabric of Canada's democracy is at risk.In Canada we have a non-partisan public service for the very reason that it spans across different governments. If they are asked, or directed by the PMO, whether or not they were specifically directed or whether the PMO merely intimated that direction, everyone in the public service knows that the Prime Minister's Office and the use of the term "Prime Minister's Office" are not to be taken lightly. They are, in many respects, a not-so-veiled threat that your behaviour needs to be a certain way. It's a very difficult position for a public servant to be in when the Prime Minister's Office calls and asks them to do something.(1305)We as a committee have a responsibility to determine whether or not the Prime Minister's Office actually directly phoned a public servant and asked them to behave in an inappropriate way, in a partisan way, when doing so is totally and completely outside of that individual's responsibility to do so and goes against everything in the nature of our government.Furthermore, we need to understand whether or not that supposed Prime Minister's Office individual did it with the knowledge of the Prime Minister, because the buck stops with the Prime Minister. We also need to know if it went to the Clerk of the Privy Council, or if in fact it completely skipped him, which also would be inappropriate. From free speech to not muzzling people to ensuring that we have non-partisan public servants and whether there is any way the Prime Minister's Office is asking public servants to behave in a partisan way—these are serious allegations that we need to get to the bottom of.Additionally, we need to talk about Canada's policy on China. Clearly the government's policy up to this point has been weak and has not achieved what we need it to achieve. When supposedly these private citizens—the former diplomats Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Saint-Jacques—were told that they needed to check in with the government on their policy so that they can speak with a single voice, well, perhaps the opposition and all parliamentarians and Canadians should have and be afforded the same opportunity to hear what the government's policy is. We at this committee need to hear from the foreign affairs minister exactly what Canada's China policy is. If this senior associate deputy minister is able to tell two private citizens that they need to check in on the China policy of the country, then I think that all Canadians have as much responsibility to have that information as well. That is the role of a committee, to ensure that information gets to the citizens of the country.Last, but by no means least, we have a responsibility, as the legislative branch, to do these kinds of investigations. There are only about 30 members of Parliament who are in cabinet, and in our country, in our democracy, they form the executive branch of our government. The other 300 or so, in addition to those cabinet ministers, form the legislative branch. House of Commons standing committees and all members of Parliament in the legislative branch have a responsibility to represent not only the citizens in their respective ridings but also citizens across this country to ensure that we hold the government to account. We're here to understand what the government's doing. We're here to challenge the government. We're here to represent all Canadians in holding the government to account and influencing the government's direction.If that's not the role of members of Parliament, if the role, specifically of Liberal members of Parliament, is simply to do whatever the government says, then what is the role of members of Parliament and how is that undermining the very fabric and foundation of our democracy?We saw quite clearly that the Prime Minister and senior people, both elected and unelected...because, of course, one big challenge of the Prime Minister's Office is that they have an incredible amount of authority and are able to dictate all kinds of things, but with far fewer checks and balances by not being elected officials. (1310) If we saw, as we did with the SNC-Lavalin scandal and certainly with the Admiral Norman affair, the undermining and erosion of the independence of the judicial branch and how members of Parliament, specifically Liberal members of Parliament on the justice committee, were shutting down any kind of inquiry and open and transparent democratic investigation into the behaviours of the government, it affects not only one of the key pillars, the independence of the judicial branch, but also the checks and balances and the independence of the legislative branch. Therefore, I am calling on all members of Parliament today at this committee to assume their responsibility to the citizens of the nation, to the office they hold and to their responsibilities as members of Parliament to hold government to account and ensure not only that the policies and the practices are correct, but also that the institution of government and the Parliament itself remain intact. We must vote in favour of this motion because there is far too much at stake, from free speech to the jeopardizing of a non-partisan public service, to not knowing what the government's China policy is and, therefore, not being able to hear from those who would agree with whatever it is and those who may disagree, and to ensure that we preserve and protect the very structure of our foundation of the independence of the executive, the legislative and, of course, the judicial branches and the role and accountability of a House of Commons standing committee to investigate when the Prime Minister is potentially overstepping his role and responsibility with a pattern of behaviour to muzzle anyone who would criticize, putting partisan goals ahead of the responsibility and the structure of the nation and, of course, covering up what's really going on and hiding the truth from Canadians.The motion is to hear from these witnesses, to investigate these serious allegations and to protect and preserve Canada's democracy. I am pleading with the members of this committee to vote in favour of the motion.Thank you.ChinaFreedom of speechGovernment accountabilityInformation disseminationInternational relationsJudicial independenceOffice of the Prime MinisterPartisanshipPolitical influencePolitical powerPublic Service and public servantsMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[English]Thank you, MP Alleslev.We will now move to MP Caron.LeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillGuyCaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/23915GuyCaronGuy-CaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaronGuy_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Guy Caron (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, NDP): (1315)[Translation]Thank you.All this is necessary because David Mulroney, the former Canadian ambassador to China, received a call, not from a regular employee of Global Affairs Canada, but from the assistant deputy minister for Asia-Pacific at the department. The assistant deputy minister asked him the following:[English] “In this time of high tension and in an election environment, we all need to be very, very careful.”[Translation]He said that he made the call at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office. At this time, the PMO and the Prime Minister deny making the request. Someone is lying in this case, and the consequences are quite serious for our parliamentary system.Is Mr. Mulroney lying? I don't think so.Did Mr. Thoppil lie when he said that the Prime Minister's Office asked him to contact Mr. Mulroney? In addition, someone else in the Prime Minister's Office reportedly contacted Guy Saint-Jacques, another former Canadian ambassador to China. I don't think that Mr. Thoppil lied. He had no reason to do so.As assistant deputy minister, he is experienced enough to distinguish between partisan meddling and a request from the Prime Minister's Office. At this point, I believe that, to get to the bottom of the matter and find out the truth, we must hear from the witnesses named in the motion. Ms. Alleslev provided the rationale for our request. However, I believe that we must determine to what extent, in terms of public comments, the Prime Minister's Office can ask its public service to work with private citizens who have expertise in the matter.These people have the right to make public comments, and they do so by drawing on their expertise. Asking them to speak carefully and to understand that they and Canada are acting in the best interests of the country by speaking with one voice constitutes an excessive and deliberate violation. If the Prime Minister's Office did indeed contact these former ambassadors, I think that this raises serious issues in terms of how we deal with the relationship between the Prime Minister's Office and the public service and how the Prime Minister's Office deals with private citizens.To this end, I urge my Liberal colleagues on the committee to call this meeting and the aforementioned witnesses so that we can understand the entire situation and find out who is and who isn't telling the truth in this case. Based on the current information, if I consider the simplest explanation, I'd say that Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Saint-Jacques felt pressured to align their views with the government's perspective.When he reported that he made the phone call at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office, the assistant deputy minister in question had no reason to lie. If the request did indeed come from the Prime Minister's Office, we must know who made the request and why, and we must ensure that this type of action won't be taken again. Only transparency and a public review by the committee will make this possible.I urge the Liberal members of the committee to accept and adopt this motion. We want to get to the bottom of the matter, not only for the sake of democracy and freedom of expression, but also to know the full story.Thank you.ChinaInternational relationsOffice of the Prime MinisterPolitical influencePublic Service and public servantsMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[Translation]Thank you.[English] We'll now have MP Oliphant, please.GuyCaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58858RobertOliphantRobert-OliphantDon Valley WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OliphantRobert_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.): (1315)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank all the committee members on both sides for being here and for exercising both their privilege and their responsibility as parliamentarians. It really is a tremendous privilege to be a member of Parliament. It allows us to engage in issues and engage in conversation and engage in matters that are on the minds of Canadians every day. It is also a tremendous responsibility, and we bear that responsibility, I think, because our privilege is so great.When I received the notice of this meeting and the request that had been made, I welcomed that. It's part of our privilege as members of Parliament that if any four of us request a meeting like this, it is incumbent upon us to give full and due consideration to that request. That's what we are doing, but that also comes with tremendous responsibility. Dispassionately, when I saw the notice of motion, I prepared my remarks, but I'm actually leaving them for a moment because I think that the responsibility we have is far greater than to score political points. I am very distressed—actually more distressed than I was when I simply read the notice of motion—at the tone, at the idea and at the allegations that are being cast about by members of the opposition. I say that advisedly, because I've been on the opposition side and I've been on the government side and I know what opposition members do, because I have done it myself. But there are times in politics, there are times in public policy, there are times in our Canadian shared life when we let some of that go and we actually think primarily, as the government has been doing since December, about two Canadians who are wrongfully and arbitrarily held in detention in China in conditions that have been horrendous and belittling and that have demanded tremendous courage from both Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. I have talked to their family members, and we've had consular visits, and there should be nothing more on our minds right now than ensuring their safety and considering their well-being.We have lives in the balance and we also have livelihoods in the balance, and those have to do with farmers and exporters of Canadian goods that are also being arbitrarily detained. That means we put aside trying to gain political points and trying to make specious arguments for the sake of some gain. I am well known for not having always been in favour of things that our government has done, and I have been quite free to vote against our government. There are times, whether you are in opposition or in government, when you rally together and offer constructive, important conversation and ideas to make sure that we are doing the right thing.This government consults. This government engages. On every issue we do those things. On an issue like our current very tense and fragile relationship with China, particularly when lives are hanging in the balance, we consult with everybody. We would open the door. This government—I am speaking as a parliamentary secretary now—would open the door to all opposition parties and independent members to offer constructive, helpful ways to negotiate in a very, very difficult situation. We've been doing that with patience. We've been doing that with firmness. I think our foreign affairs minister has a spine of steel as she engages with all these partners in what is a very complex situation. Part of that is ensuring that our professional public servants are also engaged not only with the government but also with civil society, engaged with everyone who is an opinion leader, to make sure that we have an informed public discussion about key foreign issues. (1320) The issue around China—and there are several issues around China—is no exception. Our very professional foreign service has regular meetings with the key people in government responsible for public policy with respect to China. That obviously engages elected officials from time to time. It obviously engages their staff from time to time, including the Prime Minister's Office. Those are important conversations that happen inside the government, and then we go outside the government to engage civil society, too, to ensure that we are not speaking with one voice but speaking with an informed voice. That's what this government is committed to doing. Global Affairs Canada engages with people outside government all the time. They do that to ensure there is an informed discussion—not one voice but an informed discussion.The public service issued a statement last week and I want to quote it so that it is on record. The media has already paid attention to it. This comes from Global Affairs Canada and I will just add my own comment. This is a very distinguished public servant, continuing in an extremely important position in Toronto. He said:The call with Mr. Mulroney was made with this intention.... We welcome the views and advice of informed Canadians such as Mr. Mulroney on these complex issues and regret that this message was not clearly communicated. There was no intention, nor was there any instruction from anyone, including the PMO, that Mr. Mulroney clear his public comments with the government.Let me be very clear. He said there was no instruction from anyone, including the Prime Minister's Office, that Mr. Mulroney clear his public comments with the government. The public service in Canada is an extremely professional and distinguished public service. They've been clear that the current assistant deputy minister was not acting under the direction of anyone when he made these phone calls. Our government has the utmost respect for these two former ambassadors to China. We would never attempt to limit their right to speak freely. That doesn't mean we won't engage with them to ensure that we have a Canadian constructive discussion about important issues when lives are at stake.For me, personally, it is absolutely our responsibility to come here to deal with a motion that is in order, and it is our responsibility to ensure that politics do not get in the way of doing the important work of being government. Whether it's the legislative branch or the executive branch, we share that responsibility together and it's given to us and we hold it in an earthen vessel and we do it the best we can. We should not be wasting public resources to drive down avenues that simply will not help save lives and there is no story there.Thank you, Mr. Chair. Canadians in foreign countriesChinaFarming and farmersImprisonment and prisonersInternational relationsInternational tradeParliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberPolitical influencePublic Service and public servantsMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Thank you.Next I have MP Wrzesnewskyj, please. RobertOliphantDon Valley WestBorysWrzesnewskyjEtobicoke Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25468BorysWrzesnewskyjBorys-WrzesnewskyjEtobicoke CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WrzesnewskyjBorys_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Borys Wrzesnewskyj (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.): (1325)[English] Thank you, Chair.Colleagues, we often have different points of view in our legislature. However, I know that I speak on behalf of all of us when I express our united, heartfelt support for the two Michaels—Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor—and their families. The fortitude they've displayed while unjustly incarcerated in harsh circumstances is a testament to their values and courage.Colleagues, during our last major study in this committee on the threats to liberal democracy, we repeatedly heard from renowned international experts and academics that Canada is a shining example to the world in its steadfastness and conduct. At a time when populists have attacked the fifth estate—the free media—our Prime Minister, in public meetings in Canada, when tough questions are asked and there's been hostility towards the media from members of the public, has come to the defence of the media's right to ask these tough questions. Yesterday in Vancouver, when the media asked about calls made to former Canadian ambassadors to China, the Prime Minister was clear. He confirmed that the PMO did not direct that these experts be pressured, as has been previously confirmed by our foreign minister Chrystia Freeland. A hallmark of our government is our strong belief in consultations and speaking with experts. In her opening remarks MP Alleslev spoke repeatedly of muzzling. We had a previous government that often attempted to muzzle experts and scientists, because of its ideologically driven denial of climate change. It was the previous Harper government that not only muzzled experts and scientists, but also attempted to prevent our gathering of data on such important issues as the multicultural nature of our society by cancelling the long-form census, by cancelling our very ability to gather information and for the public to access information. Our government believes in reaching out, in broad consultations, and not just within Canada but also internationally, especially with our allies in countries that share our liberal democratic values. That's why we've had such great international successes on difficult files, landing free trade agreement after free trade agreement—something the previous government attempted and could not achieve. It just couldn't bring these across the finishing line. Today we're the only G7 country with free trade agreements with every other G7 country. Why? It is because of broad consultations and patient negotiations. We're also a respected member in the Americas on the difficult Venezuelan crisis. I'd like to thank the tremendous consultative work and legal research done by human rights champion Irwin Cotler.Colleagues, we believe that Canadians will be safer and more prosperous if more of the world shared our values. It's foundational to our foreign policy approach. During this time of geopolitical crisis, when the rules-based international order and the principle of the sanctity of international borders is being fundamentally undermined by Russia's military invasion and annexation of Ukraine's territory, we stand steadfast in our support of Ukraine, lifting the previous government's prohibition on the supply of lethal defensive weapons. We've not only championed an international rules-based order; we've championed individual rights, the rights of women and girls. We've appointed an ambassador for women, peace and security to champion these rights and to help bring about peace and security in difficult places globally.Let me conclude by thanking all of the experts who've provided us with invaluable insights on difficult global files, and all of our international allies who've stood with us and spoken out against Beijing's unjust incarceration of our two Canadians.Chair, we will not be supporting this motion. Thank you.ChinaInternational relationsOffice of the Prime MinisterPolitical influenceMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Thank you.Next is MP Weir, please.BorysWrzesnewskyjEtobicoke CentreErinWeirRegina—Lewvan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31796ErinWeirErin-WeirRegina—LewvanCo-operative Commonwealth Federation CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WeirErin_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Erin Weir (Regina—Lewvan, CCF): (1330)[English] Mr. Chair, I'd like to begin by thanking you and all members of the committee for enabling me to participate in today's meeting. The reason I want to participate is that China's market has been closed to Canadian canola seed. Notwithstanding the fact that the wheat sheaf continues to be Saskatchewan's provincial symbol, wheat has been surpassed by canola as our most important crop and China has emerged as the most important customer for our canola exports.My appeal to the committee would be that, to the extent that it decides to undertake a study of Canada-China diplomatic relations, the study not simply focus on the inner workings of our foreign service, but rather try to focus on the practical consequences of that diplomatic relationship for prairie farmers and other Canadians. Mr. Chair, I think what we need to keep in mind at today's meeting is, first and foremost, the Canadians being held hostage in China, but also the prairie farmers whose livelihoods are being held hostage to this unrelated diplomatic tiff. Thanks very much.Canola growingChinaInternational relationsInternational tradePolitical influenceMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Thank you, MP Weir.We'll have MP Paul-Hus, please.ErinWeirRegina—LewvanPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC): (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The statement by Mr. Oliphant and Mr. Wrzesnewskyj shows us that our Liberal colleagues are living in denial and that the Prime Minister is also living in denial. We're in a very bad old film that's starting to get worn out. Let's recall the beginning of the SNC-Lavalin case, when we talked about political involvement in the justice system. From the start, the Prime Minister said that his cabinet had never had any influence. After holding many meetings, the justice and human rights committee uncovered a great deal of information. Today, we're faced with a new situation. We can all agree that this is a totally different type of situation. However, the situation is cause for concern. As in the other case, the Prime Minister said yesterday that his office had never issued the order, and so on. He's using the exact same words. The situation is different, but the principle and the approach are the same. Denial is the way to go. With the SNC-Lavalin and Jody Wilson-Raybould case, we could see what was happening. Another situation arose where the Prime Minister, who loves to blame others, found a scapegoat in Vice-Admiral Norman. During the first cabinet discussions, after the 2015 election, the decision was made to cancel the contract for the Asterix ship. However, when the information became available, instead of taking responsibility for his intention to cancel the contract, which would harm the Davie shipyard, the Prime Minister found a scapegoat in Vice-Admiral Norman. The vice-admiral paid the price for the whole situation.Today, the issue involves former ambassadors, career diplomats, professionals who are well aware of the need to be careful. These people know very well that the lives of the two Canadian hostages held in China are at stake. The Prime Minister's Office is telling former ambassadors and career diplomats what to do, while Mr. McCallum has made one mistake after another as ambassador and has caused many issues. He even spoke recently, in an interview with a Chinese media outlet, of the need to be careful because the situation could affect the Liberals' re-election in Canada. On that note, I want to remind you that we sent a letter to the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service requesting an audit on this matter.We're talking about a range of situations involving the Prime Minister and, once again, the committee members who refuse to get to the bottom of the matter. Put yourself in the shoes of the Canadian diplomatic corps. We're here at the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, which ensures that Canada's foreign affairs run smoothly. I'm pleased to be participating in this committee today. Our colleagues make fine statements, introduce the concept of constructive discussions, and so on. However, what happens when we muzzle former ambassadors, professionals who know how things work and who, unlike others, can help Canada resolve the situation?Canada is having problems with China, but this Prime Minister isn't doing anything to improve the situation. Instead, our experts, who are probably in a better position to resolve the situation than he is, are being muzzled. I'm very disappointed to see that the Liberals refuse to go further and get to the bottom of the matter. I think that this would have been a great opportunity to show Canadians that the government can do things the right way. However, it's the government's decision, and Canadians will suffer the consequences.Thank you.ChinaInternational relationsPolitical influenceMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English] Thank you. Next is MP Barrett, please.PierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett (Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC): (1335)[English] Thanks, Mr. Chair. We went through quite the panel there, starting with the parliamentary secretary and then moving across, with the parliamentary secretary not wanting to play politics and then a Liberal member wanting to relitigate the 2015 election campaign. If anyone is playing politics, it's these Liberal members, who now want to hide behind the horrible and unlawful detention of the two Michaels, the two Canadians held in China. We should rise above politics at a time like this and come together. Simply appointing an ambassador was something these Liberals failed to do. They failed to pick up the phone, as we suggested to the Prime Minister very early on, and call the Chinese. Now, at this point, the Chinese won't return our phone calls.If there is nothing to hide and everything is above board, then wouldn't it stand to reason that there be an investigation? If the Liberal government is such a champion of the media, why, at a press freedom conference, did all of the accredited media refuse to attend a scrum with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister Freeland? That was because she tried to bar credentialed Canadian media from attending. We have a Prime Minister who has said that The Globe and Mail makes stuff up, that they're lying. We've heard him say that twice now. We have a Prime Minister telling us not to believe Canadian media, and we have that same Prime Minister telling us not to believe the Canadian public service. We have this release, after the fact—and I hear snickers from one of the Liberal staff over there—but I take it very seriously and I'd encourage your staff to take it seriously as well because—ChinaInternational relationsMedia and the pressPolitical influenceMichaelLevittYork CentreRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58858RobertOliphantRobert-OliphantDon Valley WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OliphantRobert_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Oliphant: (1340)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, we know that in the parliamentary rules, it is inappropriate to raise comments about anyone else in the room other than those sitting at this table. I know the member is relatively new, but I would ask the chair to please advise him that it is not an appropriate parliamentary thing to do at a standing committee of the House of Commons. ChinaInternational relationsParliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberPolitical influenceMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Thank you, MP Oliphant. MP Barrett, could we contain the observations to people who are actually seated at the table?RobertOliphantDon Valley WestMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1340)[English]Certainly, Mr. Chair. I'd encourage the chair to turn an ear to make sure there isn't any conduct that is out of order in the room.MichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]I will do so.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1340)[English]In my tenure, since being elected in December, I have seen the most unbelievable cascade of scandals and cover-ups in my lifetime under this Prime Minister and PMO. There is certainly no snickering about that. I was noting that the Prime Minister was saying that we not believe the Canadian public service. After the fact we get a denial—a tweet, a press release or what have you—but that's not what was said. We have two independent former career diplomats, ambassadors, telling us that's what happened, that they received a call from the assistant deputy minister who told them that the instructions were from the PMO. Was he lying? Is the Prime Minister saying that the ADM was lying?This is part of that pattern. We were told that the former attorney general, Jody Wilson-Raybould, was lying. We were told that there was nothing to see, but somehow that ended up with the chief public servant, Michael Wernick, resigning in disgrace, and the Prime Minister's principal secretary resigning in disgrace. Two cabinet ministers resigned and were then kicked out of the Liberal caucus, but the Prime Minister said that the story in The Globe and Mail was false. I will have a hard time believing this Liberal government trusts the media. I think it's very much encouraging the opposite with its undermining of the freedom of the press, undermining free speech by asking former ambassadors to run their comments through the PMO. It's certainly very troubling. The parliamentary secretary mentioned I was elected recently. Yes, I had a front-row seat at the justice committee for the train wreck that was the SNC-Lavalin scandal. I watched your Liberal colleagues try to slam the door as many times as they could on witnesses: “No, we don't want to hear from the key players in that scandal.”What we've heard is that this motion on the key players in what is likely another scandal of this Liberal Prime Minister and Liberal government won't be supported. No, we wouldn't want to shine any sunlight on that, certainly.You'll have to excuse me, MP Oliphant, if I don't—ChinaInternational relationsOffice of the Prime MinisterPolitical influenceMichaelLevittYork CentreRobertOliphantDon Valley West//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58858RobertOliphantRobert-OliphantDon Valley WestLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OliphantRobert_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Oliphant: (1340)[English] Mr. Chair, I'd again ask that you enforce decorum and remind the members that all comments are meant to be directed to you and not directly across the aisle to the other side. Thank you.ChinaInternational relationsParliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberPolitical influenceMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Thank you.You can proceed with your comments.RobertOliphantDon Valley WestMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1340)[English]Thanks, Mr. Chair. Through you to MP Oliphant, I would like to encourage that we not hear any lessons from a scandal-plagued Liberal, a parliamentary secretary, on a file that has been so badly mismanaged that the hand-picked former Liberal cabinet minister, John McCallum, is an international embarrassment. We have never seen the likes of this before. Through you, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Oliphant, I find it laughable that he says that this is not something that these Liberals are playing politics with. It's exactly what you're doing as you hide behind the two Michaels, hide behind the unlawful detention of these two men, when the Prime Minister couldn't pick up the phone and the Prime Minister wouldn't appoint an ambassador. Then we have his former disgraced ambassador suggesting that perhaps we have foreign actors mix it up, get involved in the election and see if we can't work something out. We have well-respected former ambassadors who are being told that it would be appreciated if their constructive comments be run through the PMO first, but we're not to believe that. We're only to believe the Prime Minister. We're not to believe The Globe and Mail. We're not to believe these former ambassadors. We're not to believe this public servant, the ADM. We're not to believe people like Vice-Admiral Mark Norman. When Vice-Admiral Mark Norman had something to say, what did the government do? These Liberals spent tax dollars to silence him with a settlement and a non-disclosure agreement so that we never hear from him. It's just like the partial waiver, the failure to give transparency in the SNC-Lavalin scandal. We'll never hear from the former attorney general, Jody Wilson-Raybould, on the full details of what happened.It's not surprising but certainly disappointing that we can't rise above politics, Mr. Chair, as the parliamentary secretary would suggest that we do, and get to the bottom of this and give Canadians the confidence that they need to have in their public servants and in their former ambassadors. In the SNC-Lavalin scandal, I remember Liberals on the justice committee saying there were unnamed sources in The Globe and Mail article and asking who could take a media story seriously if it used unnamed sources. The sources are named in this article. Frankly, it was troubling then that the Liberals wanted the media to name their sources, but these folks spoke on the record. Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Saint-Jacques spoke on the record. Are we not to take them at their word? The only person that the Liberals want us to take at his word is the Prime Minister. Frankly, Mr. Chair, he has a serious credibility problem. One of the Liberals on the committee here wanted to talk about muzzled scientists. Early in the 42nd Parliament there was a report tabled, and in that report I believe the number was 1,500 interviews given by government scientists in the 12 months preceding the 2015 election, but what it also said was that, when the Liberals were elected, there were no changes to the rules on media availabilities and media interviews offered by public servants.It's really unfortunate that they've said that they're not going to support the motion, but I do encourage them to reconsider because Canadians deserve to know.(1345) Canadians and the Conservatives trust the veracity of what has been said. We have confidence in the public service. We think it's time to let a little sunshine in so that we can disinfect the situation. Canadians don't need another scandal. They need the truth, and that's why I'll be voting in favour of the study.ChinaInternational relationsPolitical influenceMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]Thank you, MP Barrett.Next is MP Alleslev, please.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1345)[English]Thank you very much. I think this has been a very important conversation for Canadians to hear. It has clearly shown the perspectives of the Liberals on this committee, and I would argue that they are a reflection of the government.For the statement to be made that our calling this meeting was to score political points, that is actually insulting, among other things. We have absolutely risen above politics in this. It is our job, as members of Parliament, to ensure that we hold the government to account, that we protect freedom of speech, that we protect the non-partisan nature of our public service, that this country's China policy is the absolute best one to address the serious situation we find ourselves in, and that we uphold the foundations and the principles of the institution of Parliament and governance.To say that these individuals were consulted—the two former diplomats—that they were being asked for their opinion is insulting to them. To say that they are unable, as senior long-serving former public servants, diplomats, to understand the difference between invoking “The PMO has said that we need to look at this”, “We are looking at an upcoming election”, “We need to be speaking with one voice”.... Let's be clear. These public servants know the difference between someone calling them to consult and ask for their opinion on something, and being given pretty much clear direction by invoking the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's Office and words like “election” and “speak with one voice”. Either those two former diplomats are not being honest in what they said or the government is trying to tell you—and the Liberals at this committee—that there's nothing to see here, when in fact it is incredibly egregious that we would have a non-partisan public servant reach out to two former diplomats and try to restrict them from informing Canadians.We also heard that calling for this investigation is egregious because we are in some way diminishing the severity of two Michaels being wrongfully imprisoned in China or the economic impact of the hardships that the restriction on exports to China is placing on us. In no way are we undermining or detracting from the severity. In fact, by asking for this investigation we are overwhelmingly putting forth the severity of the situation. Clearly, what the government has been doing for the last seven months hasn't worked. The relationship with China is deteriorating. The punishments and the situation are escalating. We need to hear from former diplomats about what some of the possible options might be. What we're doing right now as a country is not working. It's taking us in the wrong direction. At the very least, we need to hear from these experts, now more than ever, to understand exactly how we're going to improve the situation and how we might actually be able to get two Michaels out of Chinese prison.For this committee to make comments around the fact that we're not taking this seriously, that we're diminishing the severity of it by asking for an investigation because two former diplomats who might be able to give us some important information about how we can extricate ourselves or improve this situation with China are not allowed to speak, and that this Prime Minister, because his plan is the only plan, therefore needs to muzzle any critics of it, is in itself, frankly, undermining the severity of this situation.(1350) Lastly, the Liberals on this committee would have us believe there's nothing to see here. I think my two colleagues on this side have made it very clear that from the SNC-Lavalin scandal, from the Norman affair, from all of the times we have found this government saying there is nothing to see here and no undue behaviour, these denials have all been blatantly false. This government, this Prime Minister, these unelected officials in the Prime Minister's Office have engaged in a pattern of behaviour that has silenced and attempted to muzzle any form of criticism and public debate, the very foundation of anything in a democracy. If there is in fact nothing to see here, then an open and transparent public investigation to hear from all of those people who were involved would only be of benefit, and in the process, we might actually learn even more so that the government can make an even more informed decision about its China policy, whatever that might be. I am obviously pleading with all of the members of the committee to re-evaluate their position, rise to the responsibility of the office they hold as members of Parliament, put the country first, put two Michaels who are wrongfully imprisoned in China first and vote in favour of this investigation, rather than allowing themselves to compromise the country in favour of their party. Thank you.ChinaInquiries and public inquiriesInternational relationsPolitical influencePublic Service and public servantsMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1355)[English]Thank you.Next is MP Caron, please.LeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillGuyCaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/23915GuyCaronGuy-CaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaronGuy_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Guy Caron: (1355)[Translation]Thank you.The role of a committee, when it isn't undertaking a study to further examine a given situation, is to ensure that the government remains accountable. In my eight and a half years as a member of Parliament, I've sat on various committees. I've noticed that some committees have forgotten this fundamental rule, particularly when it comes to the government, whether we're talking about the Conservatives in 2011 and 2015 or the Liberals now.Based on the Liberals' comments that I've heard, since the Prime Minister's Office issued an official letter denying that the assistant deputy minister was instructed to contact the two former diplomats, we should simply accept the situation and not look any further, given that the Prime Minister's Office is obviously telling the truth. By sending us this letter, the Prime Minister's Office is saying that either these former diplomats—and we're not talking about just one, but two former diplomats who described the same situation—are lying or exaggerating the seriousness of the situation, or that the assistant deputy minister lied to the two former diplomats when he told them that he was calling on behalf or at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office.In any case, the situation is serious. Either a senior government official, at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office, contacted former diplomats to tell them that they should perhaps tone down their comments and align their statements because it would be more prudent to do so from an electoral standpoint, or these people claimed that this occurred, which would also be an issue. I'm trying to understand why the government members aren't more willing, on behalf of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, to conduct a more in-depth study of this highly problematic situation. Are we simply going to say that a letter of intent from the Prime Minister's Office states that this wasn't really the goal, that there were misinterpretations and that we, as a committee, will refuse to conduct a more in-depth study of the situation? That doesn't make any sense.I think that the government members must understand their role in this committee. This isn't the House of Commons, and we have the right to be called by our last names because, in theory, we don't represent any constituencies or political parties. We must finally realize that we're working for the citizens of this country. We have a duty, as the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, to study an ethically problematic situation that has been reported in the media and for which we don't currently have a satisfactory solution. Given all these factors, the government members of this committee should take their responsibilities seriously and agree to hear from these people in order to get to the bottom of the matter. I'm not suggesting that these people have been intimidated. However, I would say that they've at least been subjected to undue pressure from the Prime Minister's Office. If this has indeed occurred, the Prime Minister's Office must understand that the situation is unacceptable. It's not enough to say that people on the other side didn't really understand the goal.I want to say one last time that the government members must understand the situation and their role in the committee, which is to ensure that their government remains accountable. If they fail to do so, we won't have any power to ensure accountability on our side.Thank you.ChinaInternational relationsOffice of the Prime MinisterPolitical influencePublic Service and public servantsMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Caron.[English] At this point we are going to call the question.GuyCaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1400)[English]I'd like a recorded vote.ChinaInternational relationsPolitical influenceMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89018MichaelLevittMichael-LevittYork CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/LevittMichael_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]We'll do a recorded vote.(Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 4)The Chair: At this point, because we have some housekeeping to do, I'm going to suspend and we're going to go in camera so that we can deal with the budgets, as discussed previously. We shall suspend.[Proceedings continue in camera]ChinaDecisions in committeeInternational relationsMotionsPolitical influenceRecorded divisionsLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)): (1100)[English] Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the special meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.[Translation]We are here to study the nomination of the Honourable Nicholas Kasirer to the Supreme Court of Canada.This is the third time we have conducted such an exercise.[English]We did this for Justice Rowe and Justice Martin when they were nominated. It is a pleasure to be joined today by the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, and the Right Honourable Kim Campbell, our former prime minister.[Translation]Ms. Campbell is the chairperson of the Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments.[English]This afternoon, colleagues, we will be joining the Senate's constitutional and legal affairs committee and parliamentarians from non-recognized parties to question the nominee. Before that, we have the opportunity this morning to hear from Minister Lametti and from former prime minister Kim Campbell about the process that led to the nomination of Judge Kasirer and to ask them questions about it. Minister of Justice and Attorney General David Lametti, I will turn the floor over to you.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): (1100)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I will make a statement, then the Right Honourable Kim Campbell will speak, and then I will speak again. Afterwards, we will answer your questions together.Mr. Chairman, Right Honourable Kim Campbell, members of the committee and other parliamentarians in the room, good morning. I also note the presence of the Honourable Irwin Cotler, whom I thank for being here.First and foremost, we recognize that we are on traditional unceded Algonquin lands. It is very important to underline this fact today.I would like to thank the chair for convening this extraordinary meeting of the committee. I also thank all honourable members for being here today. I recognize, of course, that many of them have changed their summer plans to be with us. I am very grateful to them.As the chair has just pointed out, this is the third time our government has implemented its reformed process for appointing judges to the Supreme Court of Canada.[English]The modifications we introduced in 2016 are designed to ensure greater openness, transparency and accountability in the appointments process. Many of you here today are seasoned participants, having been part of the 2016 and 2017 processes that resulted in the appointments respectively of justices Rowe and Martin. Madam Campbell was the chair of those committees as well.[Translation]As you can imagine, I have followed these processes with great interest and attention. It is now a great honour and privilege for me to participate more directly in the process to fill the position that will become vacant on September 15, 2019, following the retirement of Justice Clément Gascon.I would like to take this opportunity to once again thank Justice Gascon for his contribution and to acknowledge the courage he has shown throughout his career.(1105)[English]I have the pleasure of appearing today with the Right Honourable Kim Campbell, who joins us via video conference from Vancouver. Ms. Campbell previously served as the chairperson of the Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments. Ms. Campbell also served as the chairperson of the current advisory board that was adapted to ensure the appointment of a judge properly grounded in the legal experience of Quebec and its legal tradition. Ms. Campbell's extensive experience with the selection process has been an invaluable resource in this process. We are grateful for her continued dedication to serving Canadians in this role and we say thank you.In a few moments, I will turn things over to Ms. Campbell to describe the specific work the advisory board undertook in order to produce the short list of candidates for the Prime Minister's consideration. Before doing so, however, I would like to briefly outline the unique aspects of the current process to fill this Quebec seat on the court. [Translation]According to the Supreme Court Act, three seats on the court are reserved for lawyers from Quebec. Under sections 5 and 6 of the act, only judges of the Court of Appeal or the Superior Court of Quebec, or those who have been members in good standing of the Barreau du Québec for at least 10 years, may be appointed.As specified by the Supreme Court of Canada in the Reference re Supreme Court Act, ss. 5 and 6, these appointment criteria are intended to ensure that Quebec's unique legal traditions are well represented on the court. These criteria make it possible not only to ensure that the court is able to handle civil law cases, but also to ensure its legitimacy in the eyes of the Quebec population.That is why the qualifications and evaluation criteria stipulate that a "deep knowledge of the civil law tradition is essential for all candidates to the three Quebec seats".In addition, on May 15, 2019, the Prime Minister announced a memorandum of understanding between our government and that of Quebec. This memorandum of understanding sets out the process for filling the position that will become vacant following Justice Gascon's retirement. As with the process for seats that do not belong to Quebec, this process is based primarily on the work of the independent and impartial advisory board, which is responsible for assessing nominations and developing a short list of three to five names to recommend to the Prime Minister.The composition of the advisory board has been adjusted to accurately reflect the reality of Quebec, its legal practices and its civil law tradition.As mentioned, the advisory board was chaired by Ms. Campbell and included another member whom, as Federal Minister of Justice, I had been asked to appoint. The other six members were selected in such a way as to ensure adequate representation with respect to Quebec and civil law. These six other members were appointed by the Quebec Minister of Justice, the Barreau du Québec, the Quebec Division of the Canadian Bar Association, the Canadian Judicial Council and the Deans of the Quebec Law Faculties and the Civil Law Section of the Faculty of Law of the University of Ottawa.[English] The selected members, all of whom are functionally bilingual, represented a distinguished set of individuals who undertook their important responsibilities with great care and dedication. I would like to thank them, on behalf of the Prime Minister and our government, for their exceptional service throughout this process. They did a better job than those working the lights today.Voices: Oh, oh!Hon. David Lametti: The core mandate of the advisory board was to assess candidates against the published assessment criteria and to submit to the Prime Minister the names of three to five qualified and functionally bilingual candidates. [Translation]In accordance with the agreement with the Government of Quebec, after receiving the short list provided by the advisory board, I forwarded it to the Quebec Minister of Justice. We then conducted our own separate confidential consultations on the preselected applications.For my part, I consulted with the Chief Justice of Canada, a number of my cabinet colleagues, the opposition justice critics, members of your committee and the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, among others. The Quebec Minister of Justice conducted her own consultations, including with the Chief Justice of Quebec, before reporting her findings to the Premier of Quebec. After the conclusion of this consultation period, the Premier of Quebec and I submitted our respective recommendations to the Prime Minister of Canada to inform his choice as to whom to appoint.(1110)[English] Before turning the floor over to Ms. Campbell, I would like to speak briefly about the importance of confidentiality in this process, given the concerns that have rightly been raised about improper disclosures surrounding the 2017 selection process. As I have said previously, the disclosure of confidential information regarding candidates for judicial appointments is unacceptable. I want to stress that I took strict measures to ensure that confidentiality was respected. This process has implemented strict confidentiality measures throughout. The terms of reference for the advisory board contain provisions specifically designed to ensure that the privacy interests of all candidates are respected. This includes a requirement that advisory board members sign a confidentiality agreement prior to their appointment. In addition, the agreement with Quebec explicitly states that the sharing of, and consultations on, the short list are to be conducted in a confidential manner. In terms of next steps in the process, in addition to the advisory board's critical contribution in developing the short list, today's hearing is another important element. It provides an opportunity for all of you, as parliamentarians, to hear from and question the government regarding the selection process and our choice of nominee. Parliamentarians, and Canadians more broadly, will have the opportunity to become acquainted with the nominee through the question and answer session that has been scheduled for this afternoon. Having provided this context, I would now look to Ms. Campbell to describe the work that the advisory board undertook in fulfilling its mandate. I will then say a few words about the Prime Minister's nominee to the Supreme Court of Canada, the Honourable Nicholas Kasirer. Madam Campbell.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionPrivate consultationsProvince of QuebecAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell (Chairperson, Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments): (1110)[Translation]Thank you.[English]First of all, good afternoon. This is old home week, in a sense, for me and this committee. This is the third time we've had the opportunity to discuss this very important process. I do regret that I'm not there personally to give you all a valedictory handshake and perhaps a hug, since I'm sure this will be the last meeting during this mandate. I do want to say how much I've appreciated the opportunity to speak with you and hear your points of view on the work of the committee. To the chair, Mr. Anthony Housefather; the vice-chairs, the Honourable Lisa Raitt and Ms. Tracey Ramsey; and the members of the committee, it is my pleasure to be before you. It was my honour to chair the committee. I might say that the difference between the work of this committee and the two others is that[Translation]we almost always worked in French. You will find this surprising when you hear me speak French. Even though I speak French like a Vancouver native, it was very important to do so to reflect the reality: we were in the process of choosing candidates from the province of Quebec.[English] I will speak more French, except I'm very tired—I just arrived yesterday from Africa—and I don't really want to[Translation] massacre Molière's language in reporting to you.[English]We did, in fact, do most of our work in French. That was the difference from the other exercises.I also want to say, as I said to you before about the other two iterations, that every time somebody says to me, “Thank you for your good work as the chair”, I say that the members of the committee made my work quite easy. I think you would be very proud and happy to know what incredible professionalism and dedication to serving Canadians across the country, not just Canadians in Quebec, the members brought to their work. My goal has always been, in these exercises, to ensure that each member of the committee has an opportunity to speak freely for himself or herself so that we get a genuine exchange of ideas and avoid groupthink and any other dynamics that can undermine the quality of decisions. I must say that this was an outstanding group of Canadians who really took their responsibility very seriously. As I said, it made my job easy. I was very proud to serve with them. I can say nothing but the finest things about them in terms of their competence and their character.Incidentally, as I saw in the other two examples, the two members of the committee who are not lawyers often bring a very important dimension and a very clear understanding of what the court means to the legal life of our country. I admire them very much.The 2019 process was opened on April 18 to fill the seat. Candidates were required to submit their applications by midnight Pacific time on Friday, May 17. That was a period of four weeks. I think we'll come back and discuss this a little. One of the challenges we face is the timing of this. Of the three examples or three iterations of this committee's work, two were done to replace judges who took early retirement. For replacing the chief justice, we had more time, because her retirement was anticipated. She retired close to her retirement age. I think one challenge, which I want to come back and make some suggestions about, is that when justices of the Supreme Court of Canada take early retirement, this changes the time frame in which it's sometimes most convenient or appropriate to engage in the search process, particularly if we want to ensure that the court is up to full complement at the beginning of a new season of its work.The remaining advisory board members were announced only on May 15, but as soon as the process was launched and I was confirmed to be the new chair, I set about making contact with all of the organizations that we contacted in the past iterations, to ask them to communicate with their members about the new opening and to encourage them to consider whether they would like to be considered as candidates for the new seat on the court. I didn't wait for the other committee members to be appointed but began right away to communicate. Again, I have some other comments I'd like to make about that process.You know, of course, that I'm not going to repeat the requirements of the Supreme Court Act to have three civil law trained judges from Quebec. The quality of candidates was really outstanding. There were 12 candidates, which was perhaps about right. We had, I think, 12 or 14 candidates for the western seat.(1115) The first seat we considered had many more candidates, because that was originally meant to be—and it was—a national competition. I will say that only one of the candidates was a woman. Again, that is something that the committee members were disappointed about. There were no indigenous applicants in this process. I think we want to talk about how we can encourage a broader range of Canadians to apply. I will give you some of my reflections on why we have encountered those issues.The board members, first of all, convened via teleconference. We then met in Ottawa between May 27 and June 7 to discuss our evaluations and to proceed with our methodology of identifying and looking at candidates individually before we came together again—to avoid groupthink, to avoid too much influence before each of us had the opportunity to independently review. Before that, though, we came on May 21 to meet with the chief justice. As you know, it's been our tradition to meet with the chief justice before setting out on our business. This was our first opportunity, obviously, to meet with the new chief justice, Chief Justice Wagner. As in the other two cases, we found that our meeting with the chief justice really helped to set us up for our work by reminding us of the reality of life on the Supreme Court of Canada, of what is required and what some of the things are we should be looking for as we interact with our candidates. I think what was interesting for us in talking to Chief Justice Wagner—those are confidential conversations, but I don't think he said anything that he hasn't said to Canadians more broadly—was that, as with the other meetings we had with Chief Justice McLachlin, there was an emphasis on the importance of collegiality. Again, one wants justices who have strong views and who are capable of expressing themselves, but collegiality on the Supreme Court of Canada is not groupthink. It is the ability to try, as much as possible, to create clarity and judgments that become the architecture of Canadian law and that are so important for lower courts and practitioners. This ability to work toward the clearest possible elaboration of the court's views on issues is a very important part of the temperament of a constructive Supreme Court justice. The other thing that was very interesting was when Chief Justice Wagner talked to us about the uniqueness of the Supreme Court of Canada as both bilingual and bijuridical. Now, we knew, of course, that for our judges, one of the requirements for our candidates has been that they be functionally bilingual. The Supreme Court Act requires that there be three civil law trained judges on the court from Quebec, although Justice Martin is also a civil law trained judge, so the strength of civil law capacity on the court is certainly well established. He made a very interesting comment about how unique this makes our Supreme Court and how, in terms of the way other courts around the world look at our judgments, we have a very special set of competences among our justices. I know that certainly many common law judges enjoy the opportunity to study the civil law because it's a different route, often, to getting to the same answer. That really put our work in a different context in the sense that we weren't just looking to fulfill the requirements of the Supreme Court Act. We were working on an exercise that helped define our court more broadly in the world as uniquely extremely broad in its juridical competence. I think we felt quite inspired by that notion. Of course, the candidates we interviewed were quite outstanding in that regard.After meeting with the chief justice and doing our work, we presented our short list to the Prime Minister. I'm very happy to answer your questions, but I would just like to conclude with this comment. I notice that since 2011 there have been nine nominations, including Justice Kasirer, to the Supreme Court. I remember the first meeting we had with Chief Justice McLachlin. She felt that the ability to commit, say, 10 years to the work on the court was highly valuable for a Supreme Court justice simply because it takes time to ramp up, to get up and running, and to find your feet, but also because continuity and a lack of disruption are very important.(1120) However, clearly, there are reasons for judges to not necessarily serve their full time on the court. In terms of getting the quickest response from strong candidates to the opportunity to be considered as a candidate for the court when retirements come, or early retirements come, we have talked about a process—and I would be very interested in the views of members of the committee on how this might be approached—as a way of starting an ongoing conversation with members of the Canadian judiciary in all of the provinces and senior members of the profession, about what it means to serve on the Supreme Court of Canada. What are some of the nuances, what are some of the requirements? I say this because it's a very difficult job. It isn't just that one has to be an outstanding legal thinker, but that one also has to move to the national capital region, to Ottawa, and often at a stage in life when a spouse's career may be at its most active and prominent stage of development, when family obligations make it difficult. I think that having a broader conversation with people in the profession about what is required to be on the court so that there is greater knowledge of what it actually means might, first of all, enable us to encourage even more people to apply. I think, particularly for women, if they have families and are likely to have spouses who also have careers, this might be something that could overcome some reservations. If this were an ongoing conversation, as opposed to something that we scramble to do just in the face of an imminent departure from the court and the need to recruit a new candidate, I think it might be something that could broaden the scope of the candidates. Again, as I've said, we do reach out to a broad range of organizations of lawyers and judges in Canada, but I think that in finding people who are perhaps members of groups that are under-represented, having an ongoing process of making candidacy for the Supreme Court of Canada less daunting and more appealing, or certainly to at least allow for a greater, more informed view, so that people do not come to the court and find that it really is difficult for them to serve and that their expectations are not the reality, is something that we need to think about. I say this because we, again, have an outstanding court and a court that, in the context of world courts, is unique and whose work is highly regarded. We want to ensure that no person—no man or woman or member of any ethnic group or identification in Canada—is ever discouraged from presenting themselves as a candidate because of either a lack of confidence in what it might mean or a lack of knowledge. I will stop here and will be very happy to answer your questions. I appreciate you, Mr. Chairman, and your committee for accommodating me to be able to speak to you from Vancouver because I sure needed my sleep last night. Thank you. Aboriginal peoplesCivil lawFederal judgesIndependent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial AppointmentsMinoritiesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsWomenDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Thank you.Mr. Lametti. KimCampbellRight Hon.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1125)[Translation]Thank you very much, Ms. Campbell.I will take the floor for a few moments again to talk to you about the Honourable Nicholas Kasirer.Born in 1960 and originally from Montreal, Mr. Justice Kasirer was called to the Quebec Bar in 1987, after graduating with distinction from the University of Toronto in 1981 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics and Political Science and a Bachelor of Civil Law and Common Law degree from McGill University in 1985. He also studied at the University of Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne, where he obtained an advanced degree in international public law in 1986.[English]Following his admission to the Barreau du Québec, Justice Kasirer clerked for the Hon. Jean Beetz at the Supreme Court of Canada. He then served as professor at his and my alma mater, McGill University, from 1989 to 2009, and he was the dean of the faculty of law at McGill from 2003 to 2009, when he was appointed to the Court of Appeal of Quebec.Prior to his career at McGill, from 1996 to 2003, he was the director of the Quebec Research Centre of Private and Comparative Law, as well as a part-time instructor at the Barreau du Québec and a guest professor at the Université de Paris.[Translation]Judge Kasirer is perfectly bilingual. As you will have the pleasure to see this afternoon, he speaks both Molière and Shakespeare's language equally well.A prolific author, he has participated in the writing of nearly two dozen books, as author or contributor, and has written numerous legal publications, mainly devoted to the law of obligations, property law, family law and the law of wills and estates, both in civil law and in common law.Known for his generosity and great collegiality, Judge Kasirer has had, as the Prime Minister said, an exceptional career as a judge and professor, and has earned the esteem of his peers in Canada and around the world. There is no doubt that he will be an asset to the Supreme Court of Canada.[English] I would like to conclude by reiterating my sincere thanks, on behalf of the government, to the Right Honourable Kim Campbell, each member of the advisory committee, each person who was consulted and each candidate who applied in this process. You have helped to ensure the strength of one of Canada's most treasured institutions, a Supreme Court that is respected and admired throughout the world. We are very grateful for your contribution.[Translation]I would also like to thank the Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs and his staff, who provided exceptional and professional administrative support throughout the process.Finally, I thank my colleagues in Parliament for helping to place the values of democracy, transparency and accountability at the heart of the selection of judges for our final court of appeal.Ways to involve parliamentarians in the process of appointing judges to the Supreme Court of Canada have been sought for at least 20 years. I believe this is a crucial role, and members of the 42nd Parliament can be proud to have made progress toward consultation and inclusion.Thanks to this continued support for the core values of transparency, inclusion and accountability, the selection process for judges of the Supreme Court of Canada will continue to strengthen the confidence of Canadians in this fundamental institution, as will the appointment of outstanding jurists who reflect the diversity and bilingual and bijural character of our country.Thank you.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Campbell, and thank you very much, Mr. Lametti. We tried very hard to get the lighting right for you throughout that entire presentation.Just for everybody's edification, the issue is building-wide, not just in this room. Public Works is trying to resolve it. Please don't blame the staff here for the lighting issue. They're not the ones doing it.We'll do two rounds of questions now.[Translation]We'll start with the Conservative Party.Ms. Raitt, you have the floor. DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt (Milton, CPC): (1130)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. We would never blame the staff for that; it's fine.Minister, thank you very much for being here. Ms. Campbell, thank you very much for all the work you have done for Canadians. I want to thank you on behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada for the three times you chaired this committee.Minister Lametti, as you may have noted, today in The Globe and Mail, and indeed many times this week, there were discussions about SNC-Lavalin. I'd like to know whether or not you've taken any steps to award a deferred prosecution agreement prior to SNC-Lavalin appearing before court on September 20 of this year.Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1130)[English]As you know and as I've said many times in the House of Commons and in other public fora, including in front of the press, I make no comment on anything with respect to that file. Anything that I can or might say might have an impact on ongoing litigation. Therefore, I'm very careful in that regard. Thank you.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1130)[English]Okay. Thank you very much.Ms. Campbell, I want to ask about your process with respect to the advisory committee. I'll tell you that it's with the background of trying to understand how to deal with a leak. As you know, a leak occurred in the last process that you chaired. When did you learn about the leak from the last process that you chaired?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1130)[English]Let me say that the leak was not from our process. After we present our short list to the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister, in partnership with the Minister of Justice and all the other interlocutors, including, I think, critics, has an ongoing series of conversations. One thing our advisory board is not mandated to do is to select candidates based on their philosophy. Now, if there were candidates who had views that might be considered more extreme in some way, or unconventional, we might certainly mention this, but it is up to the Prime Minister and his post-short list process to determine some compatibility or philosophical views. There is a process that goes on after our committee. There has never been a leak from our committee, and nor, I think, would there be.Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1130)[English] That's very good to know.Minister Lametti just indicated, though, in his opening remarks that he took strict measures in dealing with this unacceptable disclosure by talking about making changes to the advisory committee's mandate. If the advisory committee wasn't the source of the leak, why would Minister Lametti feel the need to talk to the advisory committee about the previous leak?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1130)[English]I don't know. I think he addressed that, but we have a very strict commitment to confidentiality, including not identifying who any of the candidates are. There has never been any suggestion that any of the members of the three committees have ever breached that confidentiality, nor would they.Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1130)[English]The retired justice of the Supreme Court of Canada Louis LeBel sat on your committee this time and commented regarding the leak from the advisory process the last time, saying it was very serious because the process is a very delicate matter. Did he bring up any concerns about confidentiality during this process?Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1130)[English]Not particularly, because we were obviously so devoted to it and so very careful to maintain that confidentiality. Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1130)[English]Did you take any steps to determine and ensure that there was no leak of confidentiality from your advisory committee? I know you said there wasn't, but I'm just wondering if you called anybody. Did you talk to the minister? Did you talk to PCO? Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1130)[English]I don't think it was necessary. We worked with the commissioner for federal judicial affairs. We worked on our documents on secure tablets—very carefully controlled. We always left our documents in the meeting room and the clear commitment.... We signed an undertaking to maintaining confidentiality, so the process was well established. I just want to repeat that there has been no indication of any leak ever coming from a member of the committee.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1135)[English]So the Privacy Commissioner—KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1135)[English]If anything, we were sort of tip-toeing around and were often afraid, even among ourselves. When we ate dinner together we went someplace where people wouldn't even realize who we were and what we were doing.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1135)[English]That's tough for you to do, I would imagine, Ms. Campbell.The reason I ask is that, of course, we are concerned about the leak and the way it happened. The Privacy Commissioner is concerned as well and is investigating the leak. His officials can't interview the minister's office or the Prime Minister's Office. I'm wondering if he had a conversation with you to understand the confidentiality around the advisory committee.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1135)[English]Well, no, because there's never been any suggestion that this confidentiality has been breached.I'm delighted—this is good for your committee obviously to be concerned about, but the nature of the leak, such as it was, is that it very clearly was not from the committee process.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1135)[English]Thank you very much.Minister Lametti, you gave an interview to The Lawyer's Daily in April in which you indicated that you were very confident that the leak did not come from the Department of Justice or from officials in the Prime Minister's Office.Ms. Campbell is now saying that it didn't come from her advisory committee. Where did the leak come from?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1135)[English]I don't know. The Privacy Commissioner has stated that he has opened an investigation into the matter, and I'm not going to comment on his ongoing investigation. I will say that federal departments will co-operate fully with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and that I took steps in this current process both in terms of limiting the number of people who had access to the process within my department, as well as segregating the server and doing everything securely that we needed to do to make sure that there was no breach of privacy from my department.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1135)[English]You did indicate—DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]Sorry, but we're out of time.Ms. Khalid.LisaRaittHon.MiltonIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88849IqraKhalidIqra-KhalidMississauga—Erin MillsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KhalidIqra_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Iqra Khalid (Mississauga—Erin Mills, Lib.): (1135)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you to the Right Honourable Kim Campbell and to Minister Lametti for coming in today and advising us of the process that took place.I will start my questions with the Right Honourable Kim Campbell.Ms. Campbell, in 2017 when you appeared before the committee, you talked about some of the barriers we faced with respect to appointing or having candidates who were women or minorities or indigenous. You outlined today that out of the 12 candidates, one was a woman and there were no indigenous candidates.Were any minorities part of the candidates?Federal judgesMinoritiesPolitical appointmentsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1135)[English]I don't think there were any who self-identified in that way, and it is a self-identification.The committee was concerned, because we are, of course, limited to evaluating those who apply.Federal judgesMinoritiesPolitical appointmentsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88849IqraKhalidIqra-KhalidMississauga—Erin MillsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KhalidIqra_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Iqra Khalid: (1135)[English]Right.In 2016 there were 22 days to submit an application. Then in 2017 there were 63 days. This time around there were 30 days. You talked about some of the processes in which you reached out to various organizations in Quebec. Do you think this time frame was sufficient to get the quality of candidates for the Supreme Court we were looking for? Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1135)[English] I would say that the quality of candidates was outstanding in all three processes. I think our committee members come away very encouraged by the quality of people who do apply, but one of the things is that people have to apply. In the past, when we would get a nomination where, for example, somebody would write to us and say, “I nominate so-and-so to be a candidate”, I would immediately contact that person and say, “Your name has been forwarded to us as an outstanding candidate for the Supreme Court of Canada. Would you please review these materials? If you are interested in being considered, I warmly encourage you to apply.” That was the best we could do. In many cases, people feel shy about applying: “Am I being too arrogant?” It's nice for them to be able to say that they were asked to apply. It's something that maybe even the members of your committee might want to think about. If you think there are people you know in the areas where the seats are vacant, there would be nothing wrong with a member of Parliament writing to say, “I'd like to have so-and-so considered.” Then I or a subsequent chair might write to that person, tell them their name was forwarded—we wouldn't say who forwarded it—as an outstanding candidate, and warmly encourage them to apply.I think the more ways we can overcome people's reluctance to apply, the better. It might well be something that members of your committee, who are very engaged with this issue, might want to address as a committee or just do as interested members of the committee.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88849IqraKhalidIqra-KhalidMississauga—Erin MillsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KhalidIqra_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Iqra Khalid: (1140)[English]Thank you.You also spoke in your remarks about the diversity of opinion on the benches as well. When we're talking specifically about provinces and the allotment from our Constitution with respect to members from certain provinces on the benches, how do the provincial laws and policies—in Quebec, I will refer specifically to Bill 21 and its long-term effects—impact the diversity of Supreme Court nominees who are being appointed to the bench? How does that impact the overall laws and the shaping of laws within Canada?Federal judgesFederal-provincial-territorial relationsLegislationPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1140)[English]That's a question I can't really answer. You have to follow the cases that go through. I would say that on the basis of the candidates who were presented to us, we felt there was a strong commitment to serve not just Quebec but to serve Canada, and consistent with the existing law of the charter. I think these are issues that are certainly beyond my purview to answer.Federal judgesFederal-provincial-territorial relationsLegislationPolitical appointmentsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88849IqraKhalidIqra-KhalidMississauga—Erin MillsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KhalidIqra_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Iqra Khalid: (1140)[English]Thank you.We talked about diversity. What was the main or the primary objective? Was there any consideration given to who the current members of the Supreme Court are and to collegiality, to avoid things like groupthink, as you mentioned? What were some of the considerations that were taken in choosing the right candidates to be shortlisted, to ensure the diversity of opinion on the bench?Cultural diversityFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1140)[English]In the three processes we had different mixes of candidates, including different types of diversity, but we don't simply leave it at that. One issue we explore when we are interviewing candidates is to draw them out on their experience, knowledge and understanding of the diversity of Canadian life. Somebody might not be the member of a self-identified group that we think of, broadly, as diverse. What we want to know is, in their life, in their experience and in their work, how familiar they are with the challenges faced by the many communities in Canada who may be less represented in the administration of justice. That kind of cultural and diversity literacy is for us a very important part of the outlook we would like to find in candidates who would be playing such an important role on the final court of the land.Ideally, we will have more candidates who will represent these communities themselves, but that is not sufficient. We don't just ignore it from somebody who is not from a diverse community. We really do want to know how much they understand of the realities of the lives that Canadians lead.Cultural diversityFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88849IqraKhalidIqra-KhalidMississauga—Erin MillsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KhalidIqra_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Iqra Khalid: (1140)[English]Thank you.KimCampbellRight Hon.AnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[Translation]Thank you very much. Ms. Moore now has the floor.IqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, NDP): (1140)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I would like to go back briefly to the short list submitted to the Prime Minister.According to media reports, the person selected for this appointment was the first choice of the Government of Quebec, but no one can confirm or deny this information.Do you think it would be preferable, while of course keeping the names of the other candidates confidential, that the Government of Quebec or the advisory board have permission to confirm whether the candidate selected by the Prime Minister was their first choice?From what I understand, we make recommendations. So the Prime Minister could very well, even if this is very rarely the case, choose someone who is not on the list of recommendations, or not choose the first choice of the advisory board, but rather the second or third person on the list.Would it be better if the Prime Minister could confirm that he opted for the first choice on the list? This would give us the assurance that he respects the non-partisan will of the various people who submitted recommendations.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1145)[Translation]The question is clearly intended for me.I do not agree with this proposal. According to the Supreme Court Act, this decision belongs to the Prime Minister , i.e. the governor in council. We do not want to weaken the Prime Minister's ability to make the best choice, in his opinion. He accepts the recommendations, of course, but it is up to him to decide.I made recommendations based on the consultations I had conducted here in Ottawa. If I had disclosed my recommendations and my Quebec counterpart had done the same, it would have given an idea of the short list submitted to the Prime Minister and thus reduced the confidentiality of the process. We want to protect the privacy of the candidates who applied, especially those on the short list.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[Translation]I understand that we must be careful about what information we are allowed to disclose or not. However, should we not at least know whether the Prime Minister followed the recommendations of the advisory board or whether he decided to move in his own direction? Would that not be transparency?Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1145)[Translation]The problem is that if I make a recommendation that is not included in the final decision, journalists and you, my parliamentary colleagues around the table, will ask me who I recommended. It would become too difficult to protect the confidentiality of the process. It is also necessary to protect, with all due respect, the ability of the Prime Minister to make his own choice.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[Translation]The same thing is happening right now. Everyone is trying to find out if Mr. Kasirer was the first choice and is asking questions along these lines. We are still trying to guess whether Mr. Kasirer was the first choice and whether it was respected.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1145)[Translation]It is easier to close the door from the beginning. Otherwise, we could go down a slippery slope.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[Translation]I think Ms. Campbell would like to comment on this.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[Translation]Very well.AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1145)[English] I wonder if I could just add the following, Mr. Chairman, to clarify this for the honourable member. The short list is not given with any order. In fact, the names are given alphabetically. In the short list, we do not distinguish among them. I have often said that our goal is to present the Prime Minister with a short list of candidates that will keep him up at night trying to figure out which one of these excellent candidates to select. On the committee we may have our personal favourites, but we do not make any indication of an order among the candidates who are presented on the short list.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[Translation]Fine.I would now like to know how language abilities are assessed. Do candidates take written language tests or do they do a self-assessment of their language skills?Federal judgesLanguage testingPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1145)[English] The judicial commissioner has developed a series of tests. For example, with the anglophone candidates, they do a test, and I think the criteria are that you have to be able to understand and respond to oral argument and to be able to read without translation, etc. In the first two iterations, we actually lost some outstanding candidates who did not meet the standard of functional bilingualism. I must say that with the Quebec process, we didn't lose anybody because bilingualism is perhaps better established in the Quebec French-language legal profession. However, there is a test and I'm sure they'd be pleased to share it with you. It is performed, so that after candidates are reviewed, they must undergo this test as the final barrier to being considered a shortlisted candidate. Federal judgesLanguage testingPolitical appointmentsChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[Translation]Thank you very much. Your time is up, Ms. Moore.Mr. Fraser, you have the floor. KimCampbellRight Hon.ColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88346ColinFraserColin-FraserWest NovaLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/FraserColin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Fraser (West Nova, Lib.): (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Campbell and Mr. Lametti, for being with us today. I want to thank you, Ms. Campbell, as you've already done this twice before. This is the third time and I want to sincerely thank you on behalf of all Canadians for the work you and your committee members have done in all three different iterations of these committee processes. Once again it has led to an excellent nomination, of Mr. Kasirer, so thank you for that work. I'd like to talk a bit more about the timing of the application phase for people who want to be considered for the position. I know that after the first one, which produced Justice Rowe, there was some discussion about the process being too short—I think it was only 22 days—and then for Justice Martin's appointment in 2017, I think it was 63 days. You've talked a little about some recommendations that you think could be made to encourage more people to be ready to apply when the time comes. This time around there were 30 days. Do you think that was sufficient? Are there any other recommendations you would like to give the committee so that we could perhaps recommend to the government, going forward, a process in which there is enough time for the people who may wish to be considered to get their applications together?Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1150)[English]I think you've put your finger on what is the most challenging issue we face. We would welcome recommendations of other approaches.I was neither aware of nor had a sense of anyone not applying as a result of the tightness of the application time. The first time, as you may recall, the applications were until the end of the summer, which was very difficult because people were coming in from their summer cottages and trying to get hold of their assistants to help them put together dossiers of their cases, etc. I think this time around it was much more mainstream, being in the middle of the work year, and people were around. I think it was a little easier to do.At the end of the day, we're not going to be able to rule out early retirements from the court. To assist the court in its business, you want to make sure that it would start a new season fully equipped and that the person who is chosen to make this important commitment has the opportunity to organize his or her private life. I think that's where there is the possibility of creating a greater preparedness among people who would be good candidates—and that would go even to members of the committee. If there are people who you think would be excellent candidates, make them aware and get them thinking about the process.Of course, it depends on whether there are going to be retirements, but as we've seen, we can't predict the actuarial retirements and that people sometimes retire early. The answer to your question is that we can do it better. I am not aware that it was a major barrier, but I don't know that for sure and I would hate to think it was. Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsRetirement from workColinFraserWest NovaColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88346ColinFraserColin-FraserWest NovaLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/FraserColin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Fraser: (1150)[English]Okay. Thank you very much for that. I know this time around it was a bit of a unique process, given the fact that it was filling one of the Quebec seats, so there was an advisory board set up for Quebec. As you mentioned, the Supreme Court Act recognizes that there are to be at least three seats from Quebec, given the uniqueness of the civil law jurisdiction.Were there any differences in the criteria in the minds of the members of the committee in putting forward names for the Quebec seat, and were there any different questions in the questionnaire this time, as opposed to the previous two that you did?Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsProvince of QuebecKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1150)[English]There were no differences in the questionnaire. Actually, as the process unfolded, it was very much like the others in terms of the kinds of things we wanted to know from people. Again, going back to the earlier questions about diversity, etc., we looked for the same kind of breadth in people.I think the candidates were conscious of the fact that being selected for a Quebec seat brought with it a particular kind of responsibility in terms of the role of civil law and Quebec values, but I think it was actually remarkably similar.I have to say that the committee members were quite outstanding. They made the point that, yes, there is a particular set of criteria because of Quebec and its language and juridical uniqueness, but that it was a seat that would serve the whole of Canada. That breadth of knowledge and understanding was important. Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsProvince of QuebecColinFraserWest NovaColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88346ColinFraserColin-FraserWest NovaLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/FraserColin_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Fraser: (1150)[English] Thank you. Minister Lametti, I want to ask you the following, because you touched on the qualifications of Mr. Kasirer. I agree with you that he's an excellent appointment. You talked about collegiality and temperament, and obviously in reviewing Mr. Kasirer's application it's clear that he has the legal mind and ability to do this job and has been widely regarded as an excellent choice. His collegiality will also be an asset that he'll bring to the bench. Can you talk a little about why it is so important for a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada to have that collegiality and the temperament that is appropriate, along with the legal skill and mind that he has?Federal judgesLabour relationsPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1155)[English]As Ms. Campbell pointed out, on a court you have a dynamic when cases are heard and there's interaction amongst the judges both in the hearing as well as in the preparation prior to the hearing, and then in the decision-making phase afterwards, where there will be back and forth between and amongst judges to make better decisions. That doesn't mean unanimity. There will be dissenting and concurring judgments in which a judge may feel strongly about a point or the decisions and outcome generally, but you'll get better decisions.I had the good fortune of hearing Guido Calabresi speak two weeks ago about the American Supreme Court. He clerked under the Warren court and he felt it was an outstanding court because the judges, specifically, spoke to each other. They all brought different kinds of expertise to the court and were quite collegial, and he felt that the kinds of judgments they came up with were better because of their collaboration and collegiality, and we would hope for the same kind of thing here.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesLabour relationsPolitical appointmentsColinFraserWest NovaAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Thank you very much.[Translation]We will now move on to the second round of questions. This round will be a little different; it will be six minutes for the Liberal Party, six minutes for the Conservative Party, six minutes for the Liberal Party, five minutes for the Conservative Party and three minutes for the NDP.We will start with Mr. Ehsassi.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89010AliEhsassiAli-EhsassiWillowdaleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EhsassiAli_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ali Ehsassi (Willowdale, Lib.): (1155)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and Minister Lametti and Madam Campbell for once again making yourselves available and explaining the intricate process involved in selecting Supreme Court justices.The first question I have is for Ms. Campbell. I'm returning to something that other members of this committee touched on, the issue of collegiality. You kindly highlighted how significant that is. For me the question remains, how do you quantify or try to measure whether a candidate does actually appear to be collegial? Is it a process of speaking to their peers, people they have previously worked for, or as you, I think, were attempting to highlight, is it reading their previous judgments or jurisprudence in trying to get a sense that they come up with clear decisions?Federal judgesLabour relationsPolitical appointmentsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1155)[English]That is an important question. All of the candidates do have references that we consult. One of the things we ask about is how collegial they are in working together.I can give you an example from the very first iteration. When we asked the successful candidate, who is now Justice Malcolm Rowe, how do you do this, what is your approach, he made a very interesting comment—and I hope I'm not breaching confidentiality when I say this because he's already there. He said he could put a lot of water into his wine and had no pride of authorship. I thought that was a very specific and powerful way of explaining his approach when he wants to get to some place. The important thing is what the fundamental idea is that you want to see in the decision, and then you see how much water you need to put in your wine or perhaps allow someone else to have the honour of writing the opinion, if it's the opinion that you agree is good enough. He was basically saying that he was not an egomaniac and that he understood what's important and what isn't.When we ask candidates about their approach, they are often very revealing, and I hope Justice Rowe isn't cranky at me for saying that. That's the kind of thing we look for: What has been your experience and how have you approached it? For many of them, they have a lot of experience in this area, which is one of the reasons why judges who have already served on an appellate court have a clear understanding of what that question means.Federal judgesLabour relationsPolitical appointmentsAliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89010AliEhsassiAli-EhsassiWillowdaleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EhsassiAli_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ali Ehsassi: (1155)[English]Thank you very much for that. Another thing you touched on was your concern that only one candidate was a woman and there were no indigenous candidates. You touched on the need for ongoing consultations—and this is in-between what the advisory committee does. Who, in your opinion, has the obligation to reach out to people to familiarize themselves and various lawyers and jurists with what serving on the Supreme Court is like?Federal judgesInformation disseminationPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1200)[English]I'm not actually sure whose responsibility it is. I think it might be something that could be done in partnership with a number of different groups—law societies, bar associations. That might be something your committee could look at as well, what the ideal situation is.One thing we have, as a result of nine new appointments since 2011, including Justice Kasirer, is that there are quite a few retired Supreme Court of Canada justices lurking about who might be available to give some honest views about what it really means to serve on that court. Some of them have [Technical difficulty—Editor] 75. Others took early retirement. I think [Technical difficulty—Editor] and I think it was in Saskatoon, that talked about this, where in fact some of the people who attended were surprised at what some of the benefits and attractions of working at that level were but hadn't really thought about them. It's not just to warn people about how hard the work is, but to talk honestly and openly about what it means to serve on Canada's highest court and perhaps to sow the seed of desire in some person to be considered for such a seat if the times align correctly.Federal judgesInformation disseminationPolitical appointmentsAliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89010AliEhsassiAli-EhsassiWillowdaleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EhsassiAli_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ali Ehsassi: (1200)[English]Thank you very much for that.If I could turn to Minister Lametti for my last question, as you know, Minister, the Senate Standing Committee on Official Languages recommended that changes be made to formalize within the Official Languages Act the requirement that Supreme Court justices who are appointed are functionally bilingual. Is that something you would favour, going forward?Federal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1200)[English]First of all, we have done this in practice. We have enshrined a practice that puts such a high premium on functional bilingualism that it practically is a bar in being selected. We haven't done that formally.I'm not sure it's a good idea, formally, because there may be other needs of the court at some point—for example, to appoint an indigenous person—where we may have to soften that requirement down the road. I think we're at a nice compromise right now, where, in effect, there is a requirement of functional bilingualism through the process without having to worry about either the constitutionality of such a provision or amending an act formally.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsAliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89010AliEhsassiAli-EhsassiWillowdaleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EhsassiAli_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ali Ehsassi: (1200)[English]Thank you.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much. Mr. Deltell now has the floor.AliEhsassiWillowdaleGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Dear colleagues, I am very happy to see you again today.Former Prime Minister Campbell, may I extend my best regards. I would like to congratulate you on the quality of your French. The next time you leave Africa, I invite you to stop in Ottawa, which is on the way, rather than going to the other end of the country.First of all, I would like to say that I am very honoured to participate in this meeting of the committee today. As stipulated in article 10 of the MOU, the minister must consult with the opposition parties. My colleague Lisa Raitt invited me to represent her during these consultations, an honour that I accepted with great humility. That is where my comments end on this subject, since we cannot say where, with whom or how things went. Indeed, all this must remain confidential.Mr. Minister, in your opening statement earlier, you mentioned the importance of respecting confidentiality and ensuring that there are no leaks of any kind.As you know, there was a leak involving an aspiring Supreme Court judge in the previous year. On April 11, this committee met on this subject. However, the parliamentary group of which you are a member refused to allow the committee to examine the matter and to hold an inquiry.How do you think Canadians can be reassured if your parliamentary committee refuses to allow an investigation to be conducted on such a sensitive subject as a leak concerning the appointment of a judge to the Supreme Court?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1200)[Translation]First of all, thank you for conducting this consultation during the process. It was very valuable. Your comments were very important.Yes, it was important. We have acted accordingly, especially for this process. We made sure there would be no leaks. We have taken steps in this direction.There is also an officer of Parliament, the Privacy Commissioner, who addresses these issues. We will collaborate with him during his investigations.As a government, we took the leaks very seriously. We made sure it wouldn't happen again.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]So why did you refuse to allow an inquiry by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights? It is our job as parliamentarians to investigate such incidents.Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]The Privacy Commissioner has the authority to conduct an investigation. We believe it is a good non-partisan process. There will be an investigation and I hope there will be suggestions.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]Mr. Lametti, a little over six months ago, you were appointed to the very important and prestigious position of Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. The least we can say is that for the past six months, your term of office has been anything but a long, quiet river. I had the opportunity to tell you in private.One of the events that occurred over the past six months has been the SNC-Lavalin scandal, which has literally undermined the confidence of Canadians in their justice system. For two months, this situation monopolized the attention of Canadians, for negative reasons. However, last week we learned that one of the architects of this scandal was back in the Canadian Prime Minister's entourage.How do you think Mr. Butts' return will create a sense of trust among Canadians in their justice system?Federal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]As I said earlier to your colleague and to my colleague, I am not commenting on anything that concerns the SNC-Lavalin case, because trials are ongoing in the courts and everything I say could be interpreted or misinterpreted. So I won't comment on that.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]In fact, Mr. Lametti, there must be justice, but, as the saying goes, there must also be the appearance of justice. Now the architect of the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the one who undermined Canadians' confidence in the judicial system, is returning to the office of the Prime Minister to play a key role in the next election campaign. In the face of this return, how can you remain neutral, as Minister of Justice?Federal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]Unfortunately, the answer is the same. I'm not going to comment on that, for the reasons I just gave.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]It is unfortunate for Canadians, Minister.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]As Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, I must respect the justice system. I must be careful not to have any influence on the ongoing trials. Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]This is precisely what caused the SNC-Lavalin scandal, sir; the infiltration of partisan politics into the judicial process.Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]In my case, it's not a matter of politics. I do so out of respect for the courts as Minister of Justice. Not wanting to have an influence on trials is a form of privilege. It is very important for me, in my role, to protect the judicial system.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]Unfortunately, this was not the case during the SNC-Lavalin scandal.Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]I did what I had to do as Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada to protect the justice system and respect the role of the courts.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]Do you think the justice system has grown out of this scandal?Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]I am very proud of our justice system in Canada.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]In this particular case, Minister?Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]We have several institutions that did their job...Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]In this case?DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]... everywhere in the system.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]In this particular case?DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]As I just said, I am very proud of the way the system worked.Attorney General of CanadaGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[Translation]Unfortunately, your time is up, Mr. Deltell.[English] I just want to remind everyone that we are here today to talk about the nomination of the Supreme Court justice and the process that led up to that. I've been very flexible so far in permitting questions, and the minister has been very kind in answering those questions, but that is what we're here to talk about.Next, Ms. Vandenbeld and Ms. Fortier will be sharing their time. DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAnitaVandenbeldOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71738AnitaVandenbeldAnita-VandenbeldOttawa West—NepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VandenbeldAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Anita Vandenbeld (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): (1205)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister Lametti.Ms. Campbell, my question follows up on something you said in an earlier response about looking at diversity and cultural literacy. I also share the disappointment that only one of the 12 candidates who put themselves forward was a woman. I notice that in addition to professional qualifications and legal skills, the criteria also include a number of individual qualifications, such as discretion, judgment, integrity, respect and the ability to empathize. With regard to gender equality and with regard to sensitivity on gender issues, perhaps you could elaborate a little bit on how your committee was able to make sure, when you were looking at the different candidates.... What kinds of criteria and what kinds of questions did you ask regarding the various candidates' gender sensitivity?Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsSexual minoritiesAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1210)[English] This was in the broader questions of their own experience with respect to diversity. We would have an ongoing conversation, but there is no question that there were opportunities for the candidates to discuss this in their own questionnaires—and their references were asked about this. It was kind of a fundamental value, this sensitivity to gender issues and issues beyond, because these are all issues that come before the court. I'm sorry, because if I went back and looked at the question more specifically, I could give you a more specific answer, but I think there was certainly a consensus. Incidentally, I think half of our committee members were women and very distinguished women. There was strong institutional support for recognizing openness to the equality and equal treatment of women under the law as part of our whole mandate.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsSexual minoritiesAnitaVandenbeldOttawa West—NepeanAnitaVandenbeldOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71738AnitaVandenbeldAnita-VandenbeldOttawa West—NepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VandenbeldAnita_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Anita Vandenbeld: (1210)[English]Thank you very much.I'll turn my time over to Ms. Fortier.KimCampbellRight Hon.MonaFortierOttawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96356MonaFortierMona-FortierOttawa—VanierLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortierMona_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Mona Fortier (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): (1210)[Translation]Ms. Campbell and Mr. Lametti, thank you very much for being here today to talk to us about the process.I'd like to go back to the issue of official languages. The ability of the Supreme Court of Canada to represent citizens in both official languages is a concern not only for me, but also for all Canadians.We have heard a little bit about it, but I would like to know how important official languages are in the selection process. Next, I would like to know how the successful candidate meets these language requirements. Federal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsAnitaVandenbeldOttawa West—NepeanKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1210)[English]Not only does the candidate meet it, but the francophones on the committee in fact spoke about his français recherché. He speaks beautiful French. I think you will find that Justice Kasirer feels that his work in the civil law and in French really defines him and his connection to Quebec. It was actually quite remarkable to see that he is a man who loves the language and loves to use it in a most refined, excellent and precise way. That is actually the whipped cream and cherry on the top of his qualifications. He's not just profoundly bilingual and profoundly competent in both languages, but also relishes the use of both languages, particularly French. I think he speaks his preferred language of expression, French, in a way that really elevates its importance. The notion of official languages has been a criterion that has been fundamental to all three of the processes. There were some candidates who had very fine qualities who did not pass the functional bilingualism test and, therefore, were not considered for the short list. It is a principle that has been adhered to over the last three searches quite fastidiously. It's not just that people argue in French. I think the idea is to make it possible for judges to communicate with each other and to have that capacity to reason together in either language. That is the underlying principle behind functional bilingualism.Federal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsMonaFortierOttawa—VanierMonaFortierOttawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96356MonaFortierMona-FortierOttawa—VanierLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortierMona_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Mona Fortier: (1210)[Translation]Mr. Lametti, do you want to make any comments? KimCampbellRight Hon.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1210)[Translation]I would just like to support what Ms. Campbell just said. The quality of Judge Kasirer's French is exceptional. This is a very important aspect of the process. I think the linguistic criterion has clearly been met.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsMonaFortierOttawa—VanierMonaFortierOttawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96356MonaFortierMona-FortierOttawa—VanierLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortierMona_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Mona Fortier: (1210)[Translation]My guess is that he also meets the criteria for English.Federal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1210)[Translation]Yes, Judge Kasirer is an anglophone, but he speaks French perfectly. Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsMonaFortierOttawa—VanierMonaFortierOttawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/96356MonaFortierMona-FortierOttawa—VanierLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortierMona_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Mona Fortier: (1210)[Translation]Thank you for clarifying this.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[Translation]Thank you very much.Ms. Raitt, you have the floor.MonaFortierOttawa—VanierLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1210)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Ms. Campbell, I want to ask you about the terms of reference, where there's a provision that if there is a declared person of interest, or if a member of the advisory committee has a business or a personal relationship with somebody who has been nominated, they recuse themself from the discussion. Did that happen in your process this time?Conflict of interestFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1215)[English] Yes, it did. One of our committee members had served in a firm. I don't want to go into too much detail, but he recused himself from the conversations about that person.Conflict of interestFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1215)[English]Would that be something you'll publish in your report that follows?Conflict of interestFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1215)[English]I think that is perfectly appropriate to mention. Again, I want to go back to the point that the committee members were very conscious of their responsibility and desired to conduct themselves in a way that was beyond reproach.Conflict of interestFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1215)[English]I appreciate that he recused himself and followed the rule of law on that.Minister Lametti, let's be very precise here because you're a lawyer, I'm a lawyer and precision is important when it comes to this.Ms. Campbell has indicated that there is no way the advisory committee was the source of the leak of the information regarding the former proposed candidate, Mr. Justice Joyal. You have indicated to the media that you're convinced that it did not come from the Prime Minister's Office or your office. The Privacy Commissioner is conducting an investigation that you said people are co-operating with, but is it not the truth, Minister, that the reality is that the Prime Minister, you and any member of your staff or his staff are exempt from the Privacy Commissioner's powers and will not be part of this investigation?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I have said from the outset that my department will co-operate, and as I said, I am confident that the leak did not come from the very few people in my ministry—Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1215)[English]Minister, your department will co-operate because the Privacy Commissioner has the power to summon anybody in the department. However, the Privacy Commissioner does not have the power to summon you, the Prime Minister or anybody who works on the political side of your department or the Prime Minister's Office. Are you telling me they are going to voluntarily speak to the Privacy Commissioner in order to make this a fulsome investigation?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I'm going to let the Privacy Commissioner do his work.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1215)[English]He is working within his own mandate, but what I'm pointing out is that, contrary to what you're hoping to say here, that everything is being covered, the reality is that there are some significant witnesses to this who are not being investigated, and we are left relying upon your word and the word of the Prime Minister. I think that's a fair statement. Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I'm not going to comment on anything that's an ongoing investigation by the Privacy Commissioner, other than to say, as I've already said, that there will be co-operation.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1215)[English]Minister Lametti, the advisory committee chair has indicated that there was no leak from her committee. You have indicated that it did not happen from the Prime Minister's Office, it did not happen from the Department of Justice and it did not happen from your office either. However, you did say that you could ask another department in government to investigate, “but again the prime minister's been quite clear that he doesn't feel that it's come from PMO. And I believe him.”Have you investigated beyond the Prime Minister's feelings?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I'm letting the Privacy Commissioner conduct his investigation, as I've stated publicly on a number of occasions and as you have rightfully pointed out.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1215)[English]Minister, you actually indicated to a publication that you felt the leak came from people who had been consulted after the advisory committee, through your own consultations. Can you provide a list of the people who were consulted post-advisory committee in the last round of the process so that we can get to the bottom of where the leak really came from?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I was not the minister at the time, so I wasn't privy to all of those consultations.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1215)[English]You are not going to ask the department to provide a list of those who were consulted in order to help us figure out who leaked the personal information of Mr. Justice Joyal?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]Once again, those conversations would come under the purview of the Privacy Commissioner. Therefore, I'm going to let the Privacy Commissioner do his work. He's an officer of Parliament. We have respect for officers of Parliament. I'm going to let him do his work unrestricted by—Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1215)[English]Mr. Lametti, you're splitting the hair and it's not fair because you know the difference between what a member of your political staff is subject to and what your department is subject to. Mr. Chair, given the comments by the Right Honourable Kim Campbell that the leak of information related to Justice Glenn Joyal is an important issue for this committee to study, I move that the committee immediately begin to study this matter.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1215)[English]There was a motion moved.Do you have it in writing, Ms. Raitt?LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1220)[English]I have it in scribble.AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1220)[English]You have it in scribble. Okay, what we will do is this. I am going to give the floor to Ms. Moore, and then we will come back to tell you whether the motion is receivable or not after I've consulted with the clerks. Ms. Moore.LisaRaittHon.MiltonChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.There are currently two major justice review projects in Quebec.The first area of reflection concerns family law reform, including the rights and obligations of common-law spouses, stepparents and grandparents. The reflection also focuses on the impact of the use of assisted reproduction techniques on family law and inheritance.Another major area of reflection is how the justice system treats and judges sexual offences, particularly in cases where multiple charges have been laid, but only a small number have been retained for trial or court proceedings.Among the candidates for the position of Quebec judge on the Supreme Court of Canada, have we sought expertise in these two particular areas where major reforms are being considered?Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1220)[Translation]Obviously, knowledge of civil law is a criterion. Much of what you have just described is a matter of civil law. Another part belongs to the criminal law, which is under federal jurisdiction. These are questions that have been assessed by the advisory board.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Fine.You mentioned Judge Kasirer's publications on family law, but I would like to know if he has any specific knowledge of family law and the reforms that will take place in Quebec. Family lawFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1220)[Translation]I would say so. I know that, as his record shows, he has published texts in this field and has taught family law for years, especially family property law, property law. He has also taught criminal law courses during his career.Ms. Campbell may add some additional information on this subject, but on paper, Judge Kasirer's file clearly indicates that he has exceptional knowledge in this area.Attorney General of CanadaFamily lawFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Very well.The fact remains that some sexual offences are referred to civil courts, although they are criminal in nature. This is currently the case in Quebec.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1220)[Translation]I must refer to Judge Kasirer's background. That said, we must also consider his experience as a judge since 2009. He has been seized of several cases and has handed down several judgments.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Ms. Campbell, do you have anything to add?DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.Kim-CampbellInterventionRight Hon. Kim Campbell: (1220)[English] No, it's simply to say that, as the author of the revision of the rape shield provisions in the Criminal Code back in the early 1990s, it's been a source of great frustration to me that many of those principles often do not seem to be applied in the courts. That's a challenge that I think you, as legislators, are going to continue to be addressing, aside from the culture of the courts. I think our view of Justice Kasirer was that he was very knowledgeable and I think very equipped to uphold those principles, which are in fact based on legislation. Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Very well, thank you.KimCampbellRight Hon.AnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1220)[English]Before I get to the motion by Ms. Raitt, I want to thank the Right Honourable Kim Campbell for her continued service to this country and for the incredible work she continues to do in this and many other regards. Thank you so much on behalf of the committee and all Canadians. I know that all members of all parties would join with me in that.Thank you so much, Minister Lametti, for being here today and giving us very frank answers to our questions.I will excuse the witnesses because I think they don't need to sit there the entire time as we go through the motion, but you're welcome to stay, of course, to the extent you would like. I am going to suspend for a second to let the minister and Ms. Campbell leave, and then I'll come back to the motion. (1220)(1235)ChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English] I am now resuming the meeting. I wanted to look at all of the issues surrounding the motion. There are some small issues in terms of rewriting it, but I think Ms. Raitt is comfortable providing slightly revised wording. Therefore, I'm not going to get into that issue.The issue I was trying to look at was that we had met on April 11, and Mr. Cooper had presented the following motion:That the Committee sit additional hours to study the leak of information surrounding the Supreme Court of Canada selection process, particularly as it pertains to the leak of information surrounding the Chief Justice of the Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench; and that the Committee report its findings to the House no later than Friday, May 31, 2019.I was concerned that this was an issue that the committee had already visited and defeated, which would make it not receivable. However, in the last three and a half years I have always erred in favour of the receivability of motions. I can say that the motion was worded based on something that Ms. Campbell said today. In principle, I think it's better to allow the motion to come forward and to have a discussion on it, and the committee can treat it how it wishes. I'd ask Ms. Raitt to simply reread the motion as the clerk has redrafted it.Committee businessAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1235)[English]Thank you, I will.The motion, as it reads, Mr. Chair, is as follows: That the Committee immediately begin a study into the leak of information related to the possible appointment of Justice Glenn Joyal.Committee businessAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English]Thank you very much.I'll give the floor to whoever....Ms. Raitt.LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1235)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much for ruling this admissible. Through the questioning today something has become quite apparent to me, and it has been confirmed for me as well in the discussion I had with Ms. Campbell. It is that this is truly an important issue for us to study. The chair of the advisory committee for the Supreme Court of Canada nomination process has indicated that this is something she thinks MPs would be interested in getting to the bottom of. I agree with her and I appreciate that piece of advice.I am also concerned that there seems to be a miscommunication, deliberate or not, with respect to what is actually being investigated now and who is being investigated. I understand that part of the defence, I guess, in saying no to a justice committee inquiry was that the Privacy Commissioner was doing his job. As you may have noticed today, I brought up the fact that section 50 of the Privacy Act exempts any political staff or ministers or prime ministers from an investigation. Simply put, the Prime Minister will not be interviewed by the Privacy Commissioner. Minister Lametti will not be interviewed by the Privacy Commissioner. The cabinet ministers who were consulted as part of the previous process will not be interviewed by the Privacy Commissioner. Elder Marques will not be interviewed by the Privacy Commissioner. Mathieu Bouchard will not be interviewed by the Privacy Commissioner, and neither will Ben Chin be interviewed by the Privacy Commissioner.The reason I'm concerned is that in response to my questions, the minister was very careful when I asked whether or not his political staff were going to be interviewed. He responded by by saying that his department would co-operate. That, I believe, is a deliberate attempt to split a hair. As a former minister, I don't appreciate it because I don't think it's being fair to Canadians, as it does not allow them to understand exactly what is being investigated now.As a result, I'm proposing this motion so that there will be no gap in any investigation regarding this incredibly egregious leak of the personal information of Mr. Justice Glenn Joyal to the press, with the purpose, quite frankly, of delegitimizing whether or not Jody Wilson-Raybould was in favour of the charter. That's what it all comes back to.As a result, I look forward to the comments by my colleagues around the table regarding the matter. I would point out one last thing with respect to what Minister Lametti testified today. When I put it to Ms. Campbell whether or not she discussed the matter of the leak with Minister Lametti, she indicated that she had not discussed it with Minister Lametti as he went forward in the new process. That to me, as well, is of concern. At the very least, I think Minister Lametti should return to answer questions on the topic and, as I indicated before, anybody else who was involved in it.This committee has the ability to call everybody. The Privacy Commissioner is barred by statute from calling the key people who politically had the information on a discussion between the former minister of justice, Jody Wilson-Raybould, and the Prime Minister of Canada. We're not going to get to the bottom of anything unless we have those people come forward and tell us what happened.Thank you.Committee businessAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1240)[English] Thank you.Does anyone on this side wish to intervene?[Translation]Since there are no other speakers, we will proceed to the vote.LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54325LisaRaittHon.Lisa-RaittMiltonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RaittLisa_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Lisa Raitt: (1240)[English] I'd like a recorded vote.(Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 4)Committee businessAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1240)[Translation]Do the members of the committee have any other comments?[English]Not seeing any, I want to thank everybody for being with us today. I imagine this is perhaps our last meeting before the election, so I wish everybody a very nice summer and a good campaign. The meeting is adjourned. LisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. John McKay (Scarborough—Guildwood, Lib.)): (1325)[English] Folks, we're trying to get back on our timeline here. We are waiting for our other witness, but in the meantime, we will proceed with RCMP captain Mark Flynn.You will make your presentation, and if the folks from the Communications Security Establishment come, we'll make arrangements for them to speak as well.The meeting is now public, by the way.For those who are presenters, the real issue here is that the members wish to ask questions. Therefore, shorter presentations are preferable to longer ones.With that, Superintendent Flynn, I'll ask you to make your presentation. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFinancial service industriesMeeting requested by four members of the CommitteePrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionChief Superintendent Mark Flynn (Director General, Financial Crime and Cybercrime, Federal Policing Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): (1325)[English]You'll be happy to hear, as I understand the committee was informed, that I won't be making any opening remarks. I am present here today simply to address any questions you may have. As this, on its surface, does relate to an ongoing criminal investigative matter, it would be inappropriate for me to provide details of an investigation, particularly an investigation that is not being undertaken by the RCMP.I welcome all questions. I am here to provide whatever assistance I can.Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]Mr. Graham.MarkFlynnDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (1325)[English]It's a little harder to ask questions without an opening to work off. The first question I have is this. If somebody calls the RCMP with a suspicion of data theft complaint, how does the RCMP treat that from the get-go?Computer crimeCrime reportingDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1330)[English]That will depend on the jurisdiction where it occurs. In the jurisdiction where we are, the police have jurisdiction, so they have the provincial and municipal responsibility. It would be forwarded to our intake process there, whether it be our telecoms office, the front desk of a detachment or a particular investigative unit that's identified for that. In cases where we are not the police of jurisdiction, like in Ontario and Quebec where we are the federal police, we will become aware of these instances through our collaboration with our provincial and municipal partners. We will look at the information and determine whether or not there are any connections to other investigations that we have ongoing, and offer our assistance to the police of jurisdiction should they require it, although on many occasions this type of incident is very well handled. We have very competent provincial and municipal police forces that are able to handle these on their own.Computer crimeCrime reportingCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1330)[English]At what point does something become federal? If something is provincial jurisdiction but affects multiple provinces, does each province have to deal with it separately or is the RCMP able to step in at that point?Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1330)[English]The RCMP doesn't automatically step in solely because it crosses multiple provinces. As occurs with traditional crimes, whether a theft ring on a border between two provinces, or homicides, the police forces in those jurisdictions are used to collaborating and do so very well.When there's an incident that occurs from a cyber perspective, if it's going to have an impact on a Government of Canada system, a critical infrastructure operator or there are national security considerations to it, or if it's connected to a transnational, serious and organized crime group that already falls within the priority areas we're investigating, then that matter will be something we will step into. From a cyber perspective, we have ongoing relationships and regular communication with most of the provinces and municipalities that have cyber capabilities within their investigative areas. We know that many of these incidents occur in multiple jurisdictions, whether they be domestic or international, so coordination and collaboration are really important. That's why the national cybercrime coordination unit is being stood up as a national police service to aid in that collaboration, but prior to that being implemented, one of the responsibilities of my team in our headquarters unit is to have regular engagement, whether regular telephone conference calls or formal meetings where we discuss things that are happening in multiple jurisdictions to ensure that collaboration and deconfliction occurs, or on an ad hoc basis. When a significant incident occurs, our staff in the multiple police forces will be on the phone speaking to each other and identifying and ensuring that an appropriate and non-duplicating response is provided.Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1330)[English] In the case of the incident we're here to discuss, which is obviously a major incident, is the RCMP being kept apprised of what's happening, even if it's not their investigation? Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1330)[English]I'd like to stay away from discussing this particular investigation, but I can tell you that investigations of this nature absolutely will lead to discussions occurring. That happens as a consequence of the fact that we do have those regular meetings, whether it be in cyber or other types of crime that are going on in different jurisdictions. These, obviously, on a scale of this nature, would lead to discussions.I am not involved involved in any of those discussions at this time. It is not something I have knowledge about. Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1330)[English]Understood.Okay. MarkFlynnJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Mr. Drouin, welcome to the committee.David de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin (Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Lib.): (1330)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Flynn, thank you for being here. I know that you will not comment on the ongoing investigation, but as a member of Parliament who represents a lot of members who have been impacted—I have been impacted as well—I am looking more at the potential impacts of fraud. I know that many Canadians get fraudulent calls from CRA. I myself called back somebody who pretended they were you guys. They wanted to collect some money for a particular person. They were demanding. They were really adamant. They gave a callback number, and I provided that callback number to the police. Is that something you would advise Canadians to do where obviously the RCMP, or your local police force, is the first point of contact? Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeCrime reportingDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1335)[English]Absolutely. We actually have a program at the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre and a close relationship with telecommunications service providers, who have been very helpful in addressing some of the challenges we've had around telemarketing and the mass fraud committed over the telephone. As we learn about numbers that are utilized for fraud, we are validating that, and the telecoms industry is blocking those numbers to reduce the victimization. We have adapted some of our practices to ensure that this occurs at a much more timely rate than it has historically.Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeCrime reportingDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1335)[English]Just from your experience, and learning from cases of fraud, we know that some of them may have my social insurance number. They may have my email address, as well as my civic address. It could be a very convincing case for them to pretend that they're either a government official or from some type of financial institution. What would you advise Canadians on the best way to protect themselves?Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeCrime preventionDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1335)[English]With any mass fraud campaign, whether it be tied to an instance like this or just in general, people need to have a strong sense of skepticism and take action to protect themselves. There are many resources under the Government of Canada, with such organizations as the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre and Get Cyber Safe, that provide a list of advice for Canadians. It simply comes down to protecting your information and having a good sense of doubt when somebody is calling you. If it's a bank calling, call your local branch and use your local number. Don't respond to the number they provide and don't immediately call back the number they provide. Go with your trusted sources to validate any questions that are coming in. I have experienced calls similar to yours. I had a very convincing call from my own bank. I contacted my bank and they gave me the advice that it was not legitimate. It was interesting, because in the end it turned out to be legitimate, but we all felt very safe in the fact that the appropriate steps were taken. I would rather risk not getting a service than compromising my identity or my financial information. Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeCrime preventionDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1335)[English]Okay. Great. Thank you. MarkFlynnJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English]Mr. Paul-Hus, you have seven minutes.FrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC): (1335)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Mr. Flynn. I'll come back to you in a few moments.The leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, Andrew Scheer, asked me to contact my fellow committee members to convene this meeting. He sent an open letter to the media on July 12, and I'd like to paraphrase a few paragraphs.Like the vast majority of Quebecers and all Canadians, I am worried about the the security of our information technology systems, identity theft and privacy protection.This is a very serious situation, and I understand the fear and anxiety of the victims, whose personal information, including their social insurance number, was stolen. They are worried about how this will affect them in the future. They will have to spend considerable time and energy dealing with this.It is reassuring to see that the leadership at Desjardins Group is taking the matter seriously and working hard to protect and reassure members. The federal government, too, has a responsibility and duty to support all victims of identity theft by learning from the past and strengthening cybersecurity in partnership with all stakeholders across the industry.… I want the victims of this data breach, as well as all Canadians, to know that we stand with them and that a future Conservative government would be committed to tackling the privacy challenges confronting Canadians.Computer crimeCorrespondence and lettersDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionReferences to membersScheer, AndrewJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1335)[English] Well, we thank Mr. Scheer for that wonderful message.PierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1335)[Translation]We want to be very clear about what an important and serious issue this is—so important, in fact, that we felt it was necessary for the committee to meet on this sunny July 15.Mr. Flynn, you answered the questions of my Liberal colleagues, but I find the RCMP's response to the situation rather weak. Allow me to explain. Some 2.9 million Desjardins account holders are very worried right now. About 2.5 million are Quebecers, and 300,000 are in Ontario and other parts of the country. For the past three weeks, constituents have been contacting our offices non-stop, and the government has yet to respond. The reason for today's emergency meeting is to figure out what the federal government can do to help affected Canadians.You said the RCMP isn't really involved, but can't it do something given that it has its own cybersecurity unit, works with organizations like Interpol and has access to other resources? I don't want to interfere in a police investigation, but we heard that people's personal information was being sold abroad. Isn't there technology or techniques the RCMP can use to detect potential fraud?Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1340)[English]The RCMP's role, as I explained earlier, in many of these situations is to work with our provincial and municipal partners. It's important to recognize that our provincial and municipal partners are very skilled at responding to many of these incidents. It's not always the case that the RCMP has additional powers, authorities or capabilities to the ones they have when dealing with an incident that is singular in nature, where an individual is involved in a single event, as opposed to a broader one.However, there's always a standing offer from the RCMP to our provincial and municipal partners, that should they require technical assistance, advice or guidance, we are available to them for that. It would be inappropriate for the RCMP to inject itself into the jurisdiction of another police force to run the investigation they are operating. Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PolicePierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1340)[Translation]I understand what you're saying about the investigation probably being conducted by the Sûreté du Québec, but what the Conservatives and NDP want to know is this. What can the RCMP do about the personal information of 2.9 million people that was handed over to criminals? I don't want to discuss the investigation; I want to know whether you have resources. If you don't, we want to know. That's why we are here today. If personal data was sold on the international market, neither the Quebec provincial police nor Laval police is going to deal with it. I think it falls under RCMP jurisdiction. Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1340)[English]Again, outside the scope of this particular investigation, cybercriminals do commit the majority of their crimes to gain access to personal or financial information for the purposes of gaining access to financial institutions and the money that's housed in those locations. The RCMP work continuously with the international community to identify and pursue the individuals who are committing a great number of these crimes. The RCMP are working closely right now with those international partners, as well as many of the large financial institutions in Canada and the Canadian Bankers Association, to ensure that we are targeting the individuals who are causing the most significant harm. Our federal policing prevention and engagement team has hosted sessions with both the financial institutions and the cybersecurity industry. We have a new advisory group that's helping us target those individuals.As far as knowledge goes, it's only in the hands of those cybersecurity and financial institutions. We're trying to ensure that as we are putting the resources we have into investigations, we are targeting those individuals who are causing the most harm. We do that, as well, internationally. As incidents occur, we speak to our international law enforcement partners. We identify the behaviours we have in our cases or in our Canadian law enforcement partners' cases, so that if there are connections or individuals who are in those other jurisdictions, we're using the mutual legal assistance treaty, and we're using police-to-police collaborative efforts that we have to ensure that, internationally, all of those efforts are put towards a problem.Now, I want to stay away again—and I apologize for doing that—from this exact incident. I cannot express what is or is not being done in this particular incident.Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PolicePierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1340)[Translation]Since the problem came to light, has the RCMP set up a special unit to help deal with it?Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1340)[English] I am unable to speak about this particular incident. It would be inappropriate for me to do so.Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PolicePierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.[Translation]Mr. Dubé, you may go ahead for seven minutes.MarkFlynnMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé (Beloeil—Chambly, NDP): (1340)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for being here today, Mr. Flynn.It's important that we talk about this situation because, as my colleague pointed out, people are worried. It's essential that we find out more about the federal government's capacity to take action and the means we have at our disposal, especially since the committee just wrapped up a study on cybersecurity in the financial sector before Parliament rose in June. I'll touch on some of the things the committee looked at in its study because they pertain to the matter at hand.I'd like to follow up on some of your answers. First of all, it is rumoured that personal data was sold to criminal organizations outside Quebec and Canada. I know you can't comment on this case specifically, but at what point does the RCMP step in to assist the highly competent people at such organizations as the Sûreté du Québec when a case involves a criminal organization operating outside Canada that the RCMP is already monitoring?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1345)[English]We have formal, regular engagement with our policing partners across the country. That occurs on a monthly basis in the cyber area, as well as biweekly in some other areas. However, when there are incidents such as this, as you described, there are immediate calls that go out to ensure that collaboration is occurring and that any of our international partners' information that's relevant could be utilized to aid in those investigations.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1345)[Translation]Thank you.You said local police forces, the Sûreté du Québec and the Ontario Provincial Police were very competent when it came to dealing with cybersecurity issues and had significant powers. Does the RCMP have special expertise or information that could help them?The reason I ask is that the government touted the consolidation of the cybersecurity capacity of the Communications Security Establishment, or CSE, the RCMP and all the other agencies concerned as a way to ensure information was shared and everyone was on the same page. I'll be asking Mr. Boucher, of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, about this as well when we hear from him.Do you engage municipal or provincial police, as the case may be, in the same way?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1345)[English]Yes, we do. We work very closely, as I've stated, with our provincial and municipal police agencies. In fact, I take great pride in the fact that at some of those meetings that I described, where our federal policing prevention and engagement team brought together the private sector, financial institutions and cybersecurity, one of those policing partners actually stood up at the front of the room and thanked the RCMP for the collaboration they are seeing in the area of cyber, which is far better than anything they've ever seen in their career. I take great pride in that because that has been a priority for me, my staff and our engagement folks, to ensure that we are not being competitive but are being collaborative and, in that collaboration, we are supporting each other. We are not superseding other police forces' authorities, but we're also ensuring that we can assist the others in that.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1345)[Translation]Thank you. I don't mean to cut you off, but I have a limited amount of time.When the committee was studying cybersecurity in the financial sector, we talked about the fact that people tend to think of state actors as being the threat. I won't name them, but I'm sure everyone has an idea of the countries that could pose a threat to Canada's cybersecurity.I realize you can't talk about it, but in this particular case, we are dealing with an individual—an individual who poses a threat because the stolen data can be sold and could end up in the hands of state actors. One of the things the committee heard was that individuals represent the greatest threat. Is that always the case? Does a lone criminal wanting to steal data pose a greater threat than certain countries we would tend to suspect?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1350)[English] The threat comes from multiple directions, and I can't say which is greater, because, in our experience, we have seen a significant number of organized groups or individuals perpetrating the crimes across the Internet. The Internet is an enabler as much as it's a tool for us to use in leveraging and utilizing all the fantastic services that are out there.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1350)[Translation]I have to cut you off because I'm almost out of time.Has the presence of organized groups or countries with ill intentions seeking to buy personal data created some sort of marketplace? Do individuals like the alleged perpetrator in this case have an incentive, albeit a malicious one, to steal information and sell it to interested parties? Does the existence of these groups incentivize individuals who have the expertise to do things they wouldn't normally do?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupOrganized crimePrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1350)[English]Yes, absolutely. We have seen a rise in what we refer to as cybercrime as a service to aid others who are less skilled at committing cyber offences, whether they are creating the malware, operating the infrastructure, or creating the processes by which somebody can monetize the information that is stolen. That is a key target area for the RCMP under our federal policing mandate, and we are targeting those key enabling services so that we can have the most significant impact on the individual crimes that are occurring, as opposed to chasing each individual crime.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupOrganized crimePrivacy and data protectionMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1350)[Translation]Thank you again for taking the time to meet with us today.MarkFlynnJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1350)[English]Thank you, Mr. Dubé. We have now been joined by Mr. André Boucher from the CSE, and I am going to give him an opportunity to make his statement. I'll say to you what I said to Superintendent Flynn, that we are encouraging shorter statements rather than longer statements so that members will have more opportunity to ask questions.Mr. Fortin, I see that you want to—MatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin (Rivière-du-Nord, BQ): (1350)[Translation]If I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask the witnesses questions. I'm not sure whether the agenda allows for that, but if so, I'd like a few moments.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1350)[English]No, it's not, and I'm sorry, but you're not going to be able to speak to the witnesses.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1350)[Translation]No?JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1350)[English]No, not right now. Thank you. We're still in this hour cycle.Mr. Boucher, as I said, shorter is better than longer. Thank you.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher (Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment): (1350)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. As requested, I'll keep my presentation on the shorter side.Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, my name is André Boucher, and I am the associate deputy minister of operations at the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security.Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this afternoon.Let me begin with a brief overview of who we are.The Canadian Centre for Cyber Security was launched on October 1, 2018 as part of the Communications Security Establishment. We are Canada's national authority on cybersecurity and we lead the government's response to cybersecurity events.As Canada's national computer security incident response team, the cyber centre works in close collaboration with government departments, critical infrastructure, Canadian businesses and international partners to prepare for, respond to, mitigate and recover from cyber events. We do this by providing authoritative advice and support, and coordinating information sharing and incident response.The cyber centre's partnerships with industry are key to this mission. Our goal is to promote the integration of cyber defence into the business model of industry partners to help strengthen Canada's overall resiliency to cyber threats. Despite these efforts and those of Canada's industry, cyber incidents do still happen.This brings me to the topic we are here to discuss today. The cyber centre is not in a position to provide any details on this incident and does not comment on the cybersecurity practices of specific businesses or individuals. Any cyber breach, not just this specific instance, can be taken as an opportunity to revisit best practices and to refine systems, processes and safeguards.In this case, media reporting and public statements indicate that the disclosure of personal information occurred as a result of the actions of an individual within the company—what is termed insider threat.[English] In our recent introduction to the cyber-threat environment, the cyber centre described the insider threat as individuals working within an organization who are particularly dangerous because of their access to internal networks that are protected by security parameters. For any malicious actor, access is key. The privileged access of insiders within an organization eliminates the need to employ other remote means and makes their job of collecting valuable information that much easier. More broadly, what this incident underscores is the human element of cybersecurity. The insider threat is only one example of this. Cybercriminals have proven especially adept at exploiting human behaviour through social engineering to deceive targets into handing over valuable information. Fundamentally, the security of our systems depends on humans—users, administrators and security teams. What can we do in a world of increasing cyber-threats? At the enterprise level, adopting a holistic approach to security is critical. This means starting with a culture of security and putting in place the right policies, procedures and cybersecurity practices. This ensures that when something goes wrong, as it almost inevitably will, there is a plan in place to address it.Then we need to invest in knowing and empowering our people. Training and awareness for individuals and businesses are very important. Only with awareness can we continue to develop and instill good security practices, a fundamental step in securing Canada's cybe systems.As well, we always need to identify and protect critical assets. Know where your key data lives; protect it; monitor the protection, and be ready to respond. At the cyber centre, we'll continue to work with industry and to publish cybersecurity advice and guidance on our website. We regularly issue alerts and advisories on potential, imminent or actual cyber-threats, vulnerabilities or incidents affecting Canada's critical infrastructure. Under, we hope, different circumstances, we'll continue to participate in conversations like this one, which help to keep the spotlight on these issues. Ultimately, there is no silver bullet when it comes to cybersecurity. We cannot be complacent; there is too much at stake. While long-promised advances in technology may make the task easier, the need for skilled and trustworthy individuals will remain a constant. Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions. Allegations of fraud and fraudCommunications Security EstablishmentComputer crimeDesjardins GroupFinancial service industriesInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1355)[English]Thank you, Mr. Boucher.Next is Monsieur Picard for seven minutes. AndréBoucherMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard (Montarville, Lib.): (1355)[Translation]I would like to preface my remarks by pointing out that the incident we are discussing today falls entirely within the parameters of the study we began in January on cybersecurity and financial crime. As suggested by my fellow Liberal members, I put forward a motion that we study the issue. That shows how deeply concerned we are about cybersecurity in financial institutions. I'm delighted that Mr. Scheer commended our efforts in relation to the study. He fully supports my motion, and I'm glad that his party is joining the Liberal Party in its efforts to address the issue of cybersecurity in financial institutions, so thank you.Mr. Flynn, I think it's important to speak to Canadians today to help people manage their expectations when something as serious as identity theft occurs.The public wants the police to conduct a criminal investigation. Generally, people want something done about the loss of their personal information. They want their identity to be restored, without having to worry that five, 10 or 15 years down the road, they will once again be targeted. In terms of a criminal investigation, what are people's expectations?Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1355)[English]From a policing perspective, I believe that the public expectation is that police are going to pursue the person and anyone associated with that person who is involved in either the theft or the monetization of information—whether through cyber-threat, cyber-compromise, insider threat, or so on—and hold them to account and bring them into the judicial process to ensure that there are consequences, and that steps are taken to prevent this type of incident from occurring. Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1355)[Translation]It's very hard for people to understand just how difficult it is to prove that you are the person you say you are. How are people supposed to prove their identity? It's extremely challenging when three different people are out there using the same name and social insurance number.Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1400)[English] It's not an area of expertise for me, as a police officer, to confirm identity. I would go back to my earlier statement about using your local resources, whether it be financial institutions or other types of service. If you're able to use a local service to confirm it, that is your best way to deal with those companies when there are questions about your identity.Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1400)[Translation]To a certain extent, the criminal investigation is a way to ensure justice is served, provided that it leads to the perpetrators being nabbed, the evidence being used to successfully prosecute them and their being punished, mainly sent to prison.That said, data on the black market represent virtual assets, ones that aren't housed in a physical location. Data can be located in many places. I'm not trying to alarm people, but it's important for them to understand that, even if the perpetrators are arrested, it doesn't necessarily mean that their data are no longer vulnerable and their identity can be restored.Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1400)[English]That is correct. It's important to point out that the only measure of success is not necessarily prosecution. In fact, in the cyber area many of those prosecutions will occur in other jurisdictions as we work collaboratively. One of the approaches in the RCMP, and I know in some of our other police forces as well, is that we are bringing financial institutions and cybersecurity experts into our investigations. That is different from what we traditionally have done in our criminal investigative efforts. That has already borne fruit. It has already provided significant advantages. Those “partners”, as I refer to them, are able to see information that we as police officers might not know is important and we may not independently be able to identify that this could be used to provide protection for their customers. I know of at least one incident in a major investigation we've been undertaking where several financial institutions, through that collaboration, were able to identify and reduce potential harm to accounts that through that sharing were identified as compromised. So I think the approach we are taking is providing benefits that are not solely measured by arrest and prosecutions. Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1400)[Translation]Mr. Boucher, your centre provides advice to other organizations. How can a business protect itself from its own staff? What advice do you have for businesses in that regard?As we saw this winter, there is every reason to believe that banks, financial institutions and financial service companies have the best possible technology to protect their data from outside threats. What concerns us are threats from the inside. I don't think any software out there can protect against that risk. How do you advise organizations to safeguard against the human element when it comes to fraud?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementMarkFlynnAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1400)[Translation]Thank you for your question.That ties in with my opening statement. A few tools are available, but what works best is going back to the basics—in other words, taking a holistic approach to security.First, that means a well-established internal security regime for staff. It is important to understand exactly where the information that needs protecting resides, to know the individuals the organization works with and to constantly update the security regime. An individual's personal situation can easily change after they've been interviewed, so an organization should have those kinds of conversations with staff members on a regular basis. For individuals, a clear training and education program should be in place, one that includes refreshers, and the underlying processes should be clear.IT teams have access to data loss prevention tools that can help to detect fraud. By the time fraudulent activity is detected, however, it's often too late. It is therefore important that organizations invest as early as possible in measures that build trust and confidence and that they work with reliable people.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementMichelPicardMontarvilleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]Thank you, Mr. Picard.Mr. Motz, you have five minutes.AndréBoucherGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz (Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, CPC): (1400)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you, witnesses, for being here. Mr. Boucher, I was intrigued by your opening comments on the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security being the national authority on cybersecurity and leading the government's response to cybersecurity events:As Canada's national...security incident response team, the Cyber Centre works in close collaboration with government departments, critical infrastructure, Canadian businesses, and international partners to prepare for, respond to, mitigate, and recover from cyber incidents.That's fantastic. It also leads to this question by me: What standards or measures do we have in place now? We consider banking in Canada to be a critical infrastructure in this country. What standards are in place at this moment to ensure that those are met? Do we have incentives? Do we have penalties? Do we have anything in the way of ensuring that we have a uniform approach across the industry to make sure that Canadians are safe? It's Canadians we are here for and are serving in that capacity. I'm curious to know if we have a mandatory baseline that everybody needs to operate at. If we don't, how come? And how can we?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSetting of standardsJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1405)[English] Thank you for your question. It's a vast question. I think you will have testimony this afternoon from experts from that specific sector of financial institutions. I would say that from a cybersecurity perspective, the financial sector is quite mature, where we have both regulators in place and best practices that are part of the community. As cybersecurity-focused experts, we put a lot of effort into that collaboration in those best practices. We leave it to the regulators who are sector-specific to put in those minimum standards and guidelines that need to be in place, enforced and reviewed. We in fact appeal to the best and try to tease that up as much as possible for entire sectors, in this case the financial sector. The financial sector is one that's very mature. It's one where collaboration is established. It is where reputational risks are measured at their true value. Significant investments are made in that regard.From a Canadian perspective, I would feel quite reassured that as a sector, there are both minimum standards and applications through the regulators that are in place and teams that are working at bringing the best out of enterprises so that they perform as well as possible.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSetting of standardsGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1405)[English]Approximately 2.9 million entities, individuals and Canadian businesses, are impacted by this particular occurrence, but millions of others across this country have also been victims of having their identities and credit card information stolen. They may not find solace in that particular statement that we have a mature banking industry in this country, because they continue to be victimized. I'm curious to know whether we are as vigorous in that way as we could or should be in pursuing the financial security of those institutions and of the people who put their trust in them.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFinancial service industriesPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1405)[English]I can assure you that we're quite vigorous in taking all the measures at our disposal, whether they be best practices in collaboration or measures that are enforced and in place. The sad or unfortunate reality that we all have to compose with is that, as was pointed out earlier, when data gets lost and gets in the wild, we never get to recover it. It is not like a tangible asset that you can go and purge and bring home. It is a new reality for clients, it is a new reality for customers and it is a new reality for enterprises. I would go back to the comment I made earlier that it just puts more fuel into the need to invest early, with early investments in having programs, in choosing our employees better, and in making sure we have a holistic approach to security to make sure we don't find ourselves trying to recover our losses.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFinancial service industriesPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1405)[English]Okay. Thank you.Chief Superintendent Flynn, as we've learned from this circumstance and from others, data is the hottest commodity on the dark web. We know that. People's names, addresses, dates of birth, social insurance numbers, IP addresses, email addresses—all those sorts of things are commodities that are traded at will on the web. I guess a couple of things come to mind for me. Can you help the Canadian public understand, number one, how that information is used by the criminal element, and number two, how they can then be vigilant? You answered Mr. Drouin partially with a response, but as the law enforcement agency in this country, what red flags or alarms could you make the Canadian public aware of that they need to be vigilant about if they've been compromised, and even before they become compromised?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Mr. Motz asks an important question. Unfortunately, he's left you no time to answer it. I would invite you to work an answer into a response to another member. We have three hours' worth of hearings here, and if I don't keep this on track, we'll get lost.Ms. Dabrusin, you have five minutes, please.GlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.): (1410)[Translation]Thank you.When we did our study on financial institutions and cybersecurity, we heard that banks had extensive security measures in place—something people may be questioning now. We also heard people being talked about as though they were cardboard boxes.What can people do to better protect themselves? Can you give us any helpful information or details? Is there a place where members of the public can turn for information on how to better protect themselves—a website or a telephone line, perhaps? Is there anything you can tell us, Mr. Boucher?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1410)[Translation]Thank you for your question.We have an extensive program. On our website, cyber.gc.ca, people can find information on how to protect themselves. Of course, people have to be aware when they are online. That is the most basic rule of cybersecurity. People have to know not only how to use the Internet, but also what they are sharing with others online. We are constantly running campaigns to educate people on using their devices securely and being smart about who they choose to share confidential information with.Having the best protection and keeping it up to date is the first step, but making smart choices is another. People should visit only the sites of companies they consider to be reliable and reputable. Once they've done those two things, people need to choose what information they agree to share with the company. It's a three-step approach, and it is all available in the information and guidance we provide to people.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1410)[Translation]I see.I also saw a lot of information about passwords. For instance, it mentioned people who use the same password for all of their online accounts.Can you share some things people can do to protect themselves when it comes to their passwords? That's an important element.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1410)[Translation]Yes. I always look for opportunities to promote our website, so on our website, we talk specifically about how long and complex passwords should be. We also provide some tips. I encourage people to explore our website for themselves. It is often said that people should change their passwords regularly, but the problem with that is having to memorize a bunch of ever-changing passwords. The guideline has evolved over time. Nowadays, it is recommended that people choose at least one strong password, using certain parameters, which are available online, based on password length and/or complexity, depending on the available options. If it's possible to have a password containing up to 15 characters, people should try to choose a password that uses all 15 characters. If the password can have only eight characters, that's pretty bad, but people should at least choose a more complex password.Constantly changing one's passwords is of minimal benefit if it means people have to write them down somewhere or use the same one for many different sites. What we want people to do is be diligent about choosing their passwords: choose something that is unique and as strong as the provider's parameters allow. People can use the same password, but if a data breach occurs, they have to act fast, changing their password and taking additional security measures. It's important to do a combination of things.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1410)[Translation]The other problem is that once people have a password that works well, they use it for all their online accounts. Some sites tell users that their passwords have to be longer, more complex or what have you, but they never remind people not to use the same password all the time or to use a different password than they do for other accounts. Would you mind talking about that as well?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1410)[Translation]Now you're asking me to be very pragmatic.Ms. Julie Dabrusin: Yes, but this is pragmatic stuff.Mr. André Boucher: What I would advise people, other than being very pragmatic, is to base their passwords on their level of uncertainty when it comes to the various online services they are using. For instance, for online banking, people should use a number of distinct passwords that are as complex as possible. However, for their online account with their local curling club, say, people may wish to be a little less rigorous and use the same password a few times, even though that isn't what I would recommend.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88994JulieDabrusinJulie-DabrusinToronto—DanforthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DabrusinJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dabrusin: (1410)[Translation]What can banks do to better educate the people using their services?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1410)[Translation]I believe most, if not all, banks require a minimum level of sophistication when it comes to the passwords they accept. They already have a certain standard in place to protect themselves from clients who are less diligent than they should be in selecting a password.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English] Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.Mr. Clarke, welcome to the committee. You have five minutes, please.AndréBoucherAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke (Beauport—Limoilou, CPC): (1410)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm very pleased to be here today.Thank you, gentlemen, for being here and giving up your time to reassure Canadians and answer our questions.One of the cornerstones of the social contract that exists across this land is the protection of citizens, not just the protection they offer one another, but also the protection provided to them by the government. For the past three weeks, constituents in all of our ridings have been profoundly concerned. Two days after the data breach was made public, people started coming to my office. When I would knock on people's doors, that's all they would talk about. That tells me people are genuinely concerned and feel that the government has done nothing in response.The question my constituents want you to answer, Mr. Boucher, is very simple. Can the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security indeed ensure the 2.9 million Canadians affected by this data breach are properly protected, yes or no?Does your centre have the tools to respond to the situation and ensure the victims of identity theft are protected?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1415)[Translation]It's fair to say that the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security has the resources to deal with all aspects of cybersecurity. The case we are talking about today involves an insider threat and stolen information. Strictly speaking, it's not a cybersecurity issue.Desjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1415)[Translation]I'm not talking about what's already happened. I'm talking about what's going to happen next. That's what worries people. I want to know whether the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security has the capacity to deal with international or national fraudsters who send text messages or whatever it may be.Does your centre have the capacity to deal with that?Desjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1415)[Translation]I'm not trying to evade the question, but the issue actually comes down to legislation or fraud. It's not a cybersecurity problem. That's not to say, however, that, if we see something happening, we aren't going to respond.The first thing we do every day is talk to our partners, including the RCMP, to share what we know and update them on anything new. We make sure that whoever is responsible for the matter does something with the information we provide. The national team is the best there is and won't let anything fall by the wayside. The members of the team endeavour to fix any problems and do everything they can to keep Canadians' information safe.Desjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1415)[Translation]I'm going to take advantage of your cybersecurity expertise.Is Canada's current social insurance number regime appropriate in a modern age dominated by the Internet? We are at the point now where people shop on their cell phones and pay for their purchases at the cash in mere seconds. Is our system of social insurance numbers adequate in the world we live in?Desjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1415)[Translation]Thank you for your question. You don't ask easy ones, Mr. Clarke.I'm not an expert in social insurance numbers or their use, but I can talk about identifiers. No matter what identifiers are used, whether they involve complex or simple cryptology, information management is always an issue and the potential for data theft always exists. It's a very complex issue, and I'm going to let the experts in social insurance numbers speak to your specific question.The bigger problem, as I see it, is how identifiers are managed. They are key pieces of information, and learning how to manage them properly in the large security systems I was talking about earlier is crucial.Desjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1415)[Translation]Superintendent, my next question is along the same lines as that of my fellow member, Mr. Motz.Whether they've approached me on the street, come to my office or answered the door when I was canvassing, everyone has asked me the same question. They want to know what crimes these fraudsters are going to commit down the road. They want to know what to expect. What crimes will the 2.9 million victims of this massive data breach be the target of in the future?In addition, how long will it be before those crimes are committed? The media are reporting all kinds of things. We are hearing that it will take five or 10 years before the fraudsters do anything—that they'll wait until the dust has settled.Desjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English]Again, that's an important question. You have about 15 seconds to respond to it.AlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1415)[English]The reality is that whenever personal information, passwords, etc., are released on the Internet, they are there forever. People need to be cautious and vigilant about that, and use the services that are available, like credit monitoring, etc., to ensure that triggers are put in place to notify them when someone's trying to use that information, to help prevent an actual fraud from occurring. I'm trying to respect the timeline.Desjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]Thank you, Mr. Clarke.Mr. Graham, you have five minutes.MarkFlynnDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1420)[Translation]About 15 years ago, I was in an IRC channel—I'm not sure whether you're familiar with that forum—and someone was selling credit card numbers, along with the three-digit code on the back and the billing address. Everything was ready to go. The person was offering to sell them to people. I felt that was wrong and I wanted to call the police or some other authority, but no one replied or knew what to do.If someone saw something similar happening on the Internet today, is there someplace they could call to report it?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1420)[English]The RCMP operates the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre in partnership with the Ontario Provincial Police and the Competition Bureau. That is one of your best places to go to report fraudulent activity, whether it be the telephone numbers that people are calling from, or an individual identity theft or fraud that occurred. They collate that information. They share that information. Police investigations are launched based on the collation of that. That would be the first place you should call, as well as your local police force.Local police forces—whether they be the RCMP or, in Ontario and Quebec, another police force—need to hear about the crimes that are occurring. There are connections between organized crime involved in fraud and other criminal activities.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1420)[Translation]What powers does the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security have? What can the centre do?Canadian Centre for Cyber SecurityComputer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1420)[Translation]Do you mean generally or in this specific case?David de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1420)[Translation]I mean generally. At the centre, do you accept comments from people on the outside, or do you work only with businesses? Explain how it works, if you don't mind.Canadian Centre for Cyber SecurityComputer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1420)[Translation]As I explained earlier, the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security is responsible for providing advice. It prepares and protects information of national interest. It is responsible for incident management and response, including mitigation strategies. Every step is undertaken in coordination with the centre's partners, as per its mandate. When a fraud-related issue arises, the national team is called in. It is made up of centres that have already been appointed. We make sure all stakeholders have access to the available information so we can move forward. Work on the case continues, and if more information becomes available, it is shared with the person responsible.Here's where the value of this business model lies. If something changes while the case is under way—for instance, if it ceases to be an investigation—the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security takes over until the victim receives or, rather, until the case is closed.Canadian Centre for Cyber SecurityComputer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1420)[Translation]Earlier, we were talking about passwords. Nowadays, we see two-factor authentication being used a lot more for bank accounts. Could the same thing be done for social insurance numbers?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1420)[Translation]I'm going to say the same thing I did earlier. I'm not an expert in social insurance numbers, but we strongly advise people to use two factors whenever possible. It's not perfect, but it improves the security of their information.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1420)[Translation]I'd like to revisit the issue of a unique identifier.Other models exist. On other committees, we've talked about the popular Estonian model, I believe. It's a system that's in line with our discussions on open banking. All the information is centralized and people can access it using a unique identification number.At the end of the day, no matter what you call it, a social insurance number is a unique identification number, so it's important to understand the system's limitations. It's all well and good to have the ultimate ultra-modern system, but if a single unique identifier is assigned to an individual, the information will always be vulnerable if someone gets a hold of it.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1420)[Translation]Absolutely. I can't name them today, but a number of countries around the world have endeavoured to adopt a system that relies on a national unique identification number. Some have been successful, and others, less so. As you said, the number becomes an essential piece of information and the slightest vulnerability puts the data at risk.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1420)[Translation]Does your centre manage its employees' personal information itself?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1420)[Translation]Yes, absolutely, using all the measures I mentioned earlier.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1420)[Translation]How do you protect against an employee who wakes up in a foul mood one day and decides to help the other side?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupHuman resourcesPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1420)[Translation]We have an extensive security program in place from the get-go, starting with the selection of personnel. Of course, a culture of security prevails throughout the organization, one that encompasses personnel security, physical security and computer system security.The processes are in place. The system is evergreen, meaning that it's constantly updated. We don't rest on our laurels, so to speak. We review the system on a regular basis. It's an extensive and complex process, but the investment is worth it.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupHuman resourcesPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1425)[Translation]Is your approach used elsewhere in the market? Has another organization established a culture of security similar to yours?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupHuman resourcesPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1425)[Translation]Our approach is modern, but we don't have a monopoly on security programs. Documentation is available. Public Safety Canada put out a publication on developing appropriate security programs. It's an excellent reference that refers to the same models we use.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupHuman resourcesPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1425)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Boucher.AndréBoucherJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English] Thank you, Mr. Picard.Mr. Dubé, you have three minutes. Mr. Fortin, we'll have a few minutes left. Do you wish to ask a couple of minutes of questions?MichelPicardMontarvilleRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1425)[English]Yes, please.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Dubé.RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1425)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Boucher, I didn't get a chance to ask you questions earlier.My first question is about something your colleague Scott Jones said when he appeared before the committee as part of the other study we've been referring to a lot today. He said it was important that institutions and businesses report data breaches and thefts that affect them.In its recommendation, the committee remained rather vague. Should it be mandatory to report such breaches to police in order to minimize the impact on the public and catch those responsible?That brings me to two other questions. They're for you, Mr. Flynn.Since the information remains online forever, should police treat these threats in the same way they do physical ones? If a murderer or someone else poses a physical threat, I imagine police investigations are conducted with a certain level of urgency. Should the same apply to cyberthreats? Desjardins contacted Quebec provincial police in December, if I'm not mistaken.My last question is about background checks and ongoing security checks. Given how savvy individuals are these days, should these checks become the norm?You can have the rest of my time to answer.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1425)[Translation]Regarding your question about reporting incidents, I would just point out that we recommend organizations invest before an incident occurs. The organization has to have a security program in place, one that can detect threats and so forth. We always recommend that people report incidents and share them with their community because there are usually commonalities that everyone can learn from.As the country's cybersecurity centre, we work to gather that information across all communities and to find commonalities in order to issue advice and guidance that could lead to enhanced security nationally. Yes, incidents should definitely be reported.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1425)[English] With respect to the physical versus the cyber harm, I agree with you. It's a very difficult thing to understand. We struggle in policing to determine where we are going to apply our resources, because we always look at where we're going to be able to have the most significant impact in reducing harm.If you look at fraud, fraud is a very large and significant threat in Canada and globally. It is difficult to measure $400,000 worth of fraud or $2 million worth of fraud against a physical threat or a homicide, or an assault against an individual. We struggle with that, but I can tell you that we're aware of it and are examining how we measure that risk and how we prioritize. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1425)[Translation]Wouldn't it be appropriate to acknowledge that this kind of incident has a lifelong impact on a person and to respond with that in mind?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1425)[English]Yes, it's absolutely a consideration. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]Thank you, Mr. Dubé.[Translation]Mr. Fortin, you have two minutes. Go ahead.MarkFlynnRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1425)[Translation]I have a quick question for Mr. Flynn. I say quick, because I have just two minutes and I also have a question for Mr. Boucher.Two years ago, 19 million Canadians were the victims of fraud as a result of a data breach at Equifax. Similar data were stolen in that case. Last year, some 90,000 CIBC and BMO customers were targeted. This year, it's Desjardins members.Can you tell us whether, further to these events, crime involving the use of the stolen data has increased?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1425)[English]The specific data from those compromises...?RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1425)[Translation]Yes, but I'm talking about this type of crime.MarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1430)[English]We are seeing fraudsters utilizing information that is compromised in operations. The RCMP had a successful investigation into Leakedsource.com, which was reselling some of the information from the large compromises that were made public. There was a guilty plea in that case.It is not an unusual circumstance that somebody is reselling that. We are seeing that occur. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1430)[Translation]All right, but has there been an increase in crime involving data stolen as a result of these breaches? Has the crime rate gone up?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMarkFlynnMark-FlynnInterventionC/Supt Mark Flynn: (1430)[English]I haven't taken note specifically of the rate of crime, but it is certainly a type of crime that we are seeing.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1430)[Translation]I see.My second question is for Mr. Boucher.Mr. Boucher, in your brief, you give three recommendations to deal with increasing cyberthreats. The second is to invest in training and awareness so that people have the tools to respond. Has the federal government earmarked funding to work with the Quebec government to improve the security of Quebecers' information?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1430)[Translation]I can speak for my organization. We have a national responsibility, and that includes working with our Quebec partners. We invest in education and training, and we also make our services available to Quebec businesses.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1430)[Translation]Sorry, I don't mean to rush you, but as you know, two minutes isn't much time.Are any investments planned, and if so, how much? Has the federal government made so many millions available to work with Quebec on a training program or other cybercrime initiative, for example?Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityIndustrial trainingPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1430)[Translation]I don't have that information with me today.Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityIndustrial trainingPrivacy and data protectionRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1430)[Translation]I see.Thank you.AndréBoucherJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1430)[English]Unfortunately, you're not going to be able to answer that question.Before I suspend I just want to go to point three of your presentation, Mr. Boucher, where it says, “Identify and protect critical assets. Know where your key data lives. Protect it and monitor the protection. Be ready to respond”. In other words, zero trust, which is what we've heard for the last six months.Is that the standard by which any financial institution, let alone Desjardins, should be held?RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1430)[English]I think every large enterprise has to measure its own key assets and the value of those assets and make a risk-based decision on how much they're going to invest to protect those assets. Starting from a position of zero trust is the reality of the complex environment we live in today. Don't assume your system is going to work on its own. It takes a holistic investment in a security program—in the right people, the right processes and the right technology. The sum of these things will....Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityIndustrial trainingPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1430)[English]That's a consensus standard among the cyber community, if your will, your point number three—zero trust.Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityIndustrial trainingPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndréBoucherAndré-BoucherInterventionMr. André Boucher: (1430)[English]It is a consensus that you have to invest in all of these aspects. Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityIndustrial trainingPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1430)[English]Thank you, Mr. Boucher.With that, we're going to suspend.We are scheduled to hear government officials and are actually making some decent progress here. I am assuming, and I don't know quite correctly whether, if I suspend for two or three minutes, we can re-empanel with the government witnesses and keep on moving. Is that agreeable to colleagues? Okay. With that, we will suspend and re-empanel with the government witnesses. Thank you. (1430)(1435)AndréBoucherJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]We are back on. I want to thank the officials for their flexibility and ask them to indulge the committee with further potential flexibility as we are awaiting the arrival of representatives of Desjardins. I'm going to ask the various representatives of Canada Revenue, the Department of Finance, the Department of Employment and Social Development, and the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions for brief statements. If, in fact, the representatives of Desjardins are under some time constraints and do arrive, at the end of those statements, I'm going to suspend for a moment, ask you folks to take your seats in the back of the room, and deal with Desjardins for a period of time. After that I'll ask you to come back, and the members will have questions, if that's an acceptable way. Even if it's not an acceptable way to proceed, that's how we're going to proceed, so with that, I'll simply go in this order of Revenue Canada or Department of Finance, whoever wants to make their statement first.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyanAnnette-RyanInterventionMs. Annette Ryan (Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance): (1435)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will go first, if that's all right.[Translation]My name is Annette Ryan. I am the associate assistant deputy minister of the financial sector policy branch within the Department of Finance. I am joined by Robert Sample, director general of the financial stability and capital markets division, as well as Judy Cameron, managing director of the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions Canada, and her colleague. We are pleased to appear before you today.(1440)[English]My remarks today will address two areas that, I believe, are pertinent to the issues before you. Specifically I will clarify the roles of government departments and agencies and private sector actors within the federal financial sector framework and update the committee on efforts being undertaken by the Department of Finance, federal regulatory agencies and banks in support of cybersecurity and data protection.Protecting the privacy and security of Canadians' personal and financial data is an objective shared by both levels of government and the private sector, and it is one that's crucial for maintaining continued trust in Canada's banking system. I'll address the roles within the federal government and then discuss provincial government and private sector roles.The Department of Finance along with federal financial sector oversight agencies has responsibility for the laws and regulations that govern Canada's federally regulated banking system. We collectively set expectations and oversee implementation to ensure that operational risks related to cybersecurity and privacy are properly managed by the financial institutions that we regulate. The Minister of Finance has overarching responsibility for the stability and integrity of Canada's financial system. Cybersecurity is a primary aspect of financial cyber-stability as it ensures the sector remains resilient in the face of cyber-threats and attacksIn turn, Public Safety has recognized the financial services industry as being a critically important sector within its wider national critical infrastructure strategy. The Department of Finance works closely with a range of partners responsible for financial regulation and cybersecurity both domestically and internationally to ensure that the sector is adopting appropriate cyber-resiliency and data protection practices and that the specific needs of the financial sector are considered within economy-wide policies and statutes that relate to cybersecurity and data security.I'll describe the general responsibilities among financial regulators. The Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions is the prudential regulator of federally regulated financial institutions, including banks. OSFI develops standards and rules for managing cyber-risks as is consistent with its wider oversight of operational risks that institutions must manage. The Bank of Canada monitors financial market infrastructures, such as payment systems, to enhance resilience to cyber-threats, and the bank coordinates sector-wide responses to systemic-level operational incidents. Other federal agencies have responsibilities for laws of general application in respect of privacy. The Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada oversees the banks' compliance with Canada's private sector privacy legislation, the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, known as PIPEDA. PIPEDA sets out requirements that businesses must follow when collecting, using or disclosing personal data in the course of commercial activities. These include putting in place appropriate security safeguards to protect personal data against loss, theft or unauthorized disclosure. The Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development has overall policy responsibility for PIPEDA. In November of 2018 the Government of Canada implemented amendments to PIPEDA related to data breach reporting requirements and associated monetary penalties for failing to report. As you've just heard, other federal departments and agencies, including Public Safety, the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security and the RCMP, share responsibilities with respect to broader Government of Canada cybersecurity initiatives. [Translation]It is important to note that supervisory responsibility for the financial sector in Canada is divided between federal and provincial governments. Provinces are responsible for the supervision of securities dealers, mutual fund and investment advisers, provincial credit unions and provincially incorporated trust, loan and insurance companies.Accordingly, federal and provincial financial sector authorities have protocols in place for information sharing, particularly where matters of financial stability are concerned. Financial institutions, themselves, of course, are most immediately responsible for maintaining cyber and data security on a day-to-day basis, directly managing operational risks through an extensive series of protective and preventative measures, both individually and through industry-level co-operation.These are supported by policies and standards that are continually updated to address the evolving threat landscape and remain in line with industry best practices.(1445)[English] Cyber-attacks are a serious and ongoing threat. I will focus on some of the steps being taken by the Government of Canada, the financial sector, regulatory agencies and the banks to ensure cybersecurity in the financial sector.In budget 2018, the federal government invested over half a billion dollars in cybersecurity, and in October of 2018, it established the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, which serves as a single window of technical expertise and advice to Canadians, governments and businesses. The centre defends against cyber-threat actors that target Canadian businesses, including federally or provincially regulated financial institutions, for their customer data, financial information and payment systems. Efforts to address cybercrime have been further bolstered by the newly created national cybercrime coordination unit within the RCMP, which provides a national cybercrime reporting mechanism for Canadians, including incidents related to data breaches or financial fraud. More recently, in budget 2019, the government proposed legislation and funding to protect critical cyber systems in the Canadian financial, telecommunications, energy and transport sectors.[Translation]Our colleagues at the Treasury Board Secretariat continue their work with provincial governments, financial institutions and federal partners toward a pan-Canadian trust framework for digital identity with the goal of strengthening digital ID protection in the context of cyberthreats.[English]On the regulatory side, earlier this year OSFI published new expectations on technology and cybersecurity breach reporting via the technology and cybersecurity incident reporting advisory. This is intended to help OSFI identify areas where banks can take steps to proactively prevent cyber incidents, or in cases where incidents have occurred, to improve their cyber-resiliency.While the first objective is to prevent data breaches, the reality is that these events happen and are not localized to the financial sector. Having said this, when cyber events occur at a federally regulated financial institution, control and oversight mechanisms are in place to manage them.To summarize, cybersecurity is an area of critical importance for the Department of Finance. We are actively working with partners across government and in the private sector to ensure that Canadians are well-protected from cyber incidents and that when incidents do occur, they're managed in a way that mitigates the impact on consumers and the financial sector as a whole.Thank you for your time. I'm happy to take questions.Computer crimeCrime reportingDepartment of FinanceDesjardins GroupDigital identityFederal-provincial-territorial relationsFinancial service industriesInformation collectionInformation disseminationPersonal Information Protection and Electronic Documents ActPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC)): (1445)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Ryan.We now move on to Ms. Boisjoly.AnnetteRyanEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly (Assistant Deputy Minister, Integrity Services Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development): (1445)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.My name is Elise Boisjoly, and I am the assistant deputy minister of the integrity services branch at Employment and Social Development Canada. I am joined by Anik Dupont, who is responsible for the social insurance number program.Thank you for the opportunity to join you today. My remarks will focus on the social insurance number, or SIN, program. Specifically, I will clarify what the social insurance number is and provide information on its issuance and use; inform the committee on privacy protection related to the SIN; and provide information on our approach in the case of data breach.What is the SIN? The SIN is a file identifier used by the Government of Canada to coordinate the administration of federal benefits and services and the revenue system. The SIN is required for every person working in insurable or pensionable employment in Canada and to file income tax returns.It is issued prior to your first job, when you first arrive in Canada or even at birth. During the last fiscal year, over 1.6 million SINs were issued.The SIN is used, among other things, to deliver over $120 billion in benefits and collect over $300 billion in taxes. It facilitates information sharing to enable the provision of benefits and services to Canadians throughout their life such as child care benefits, student loans, employment insurance, pensions and even death benefits. As such, the SIN is assigned to an individual for life.The SIN is not a national identifier and cannot be used to obtain identification. In fact, it is not even used by all programs and services within the federal government; only a certain number use it. The SIN alone is never sufficient to access a government program or benefit or to obtain credit or services in the private sector. Additional information is always required.(1450)[English] While data breaches are becoming increasingly commonplace, the Government of Canada follows strong and established procedures to protect the personal information of individuals. My colleague mentioned the Privacy Act and the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, which is being administered by Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. They provide the legal framework for the collection, retention, use, disclosure and disposition of personal information in the administration of programs by government institutions and the private sector, respectively.As my colleague mentioned, on November 1, 2018, a new amendment to the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act came into force, which requires organizations that experience a data breach and that have reason to believe there's a real risk of significant harm to notify the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, the affected individuals and associated organizations as soon as it's feasible. Violating this provision may result in a fine of up to $100,000 per offence.At Employment and Social Development Canada, we have internal monitoring strategies, privacy policies, directives and information tools for privacy management, as well as a departmental code of conduct and mandatory training for employees on protecting personal information. We believe that any security breach affecting social insurance numbers is very serious and, in fact, we ourselves are not immune to such a situation. For example, in 2012, the personal information of Canada student loan borrowers was potentially compromised. The breach was a catalyst for further improvements to information management practices within the department. Preventing social insurance number fraud starts with education and awareness. This is why our website and communication materials include information that can help Canadians better understand the steps they should take to protect their social insurance numbers. Canadians can visit the department websites, call us or visit us at one of our Service Canada centres to learn how best to protect themselves. It is important to note that protecting the information of Canadians is a shared responsibility among the government, the private sector and individuals. We strongly discourage Canadians from giving out their social insurance numbers unless they are sure that doing so is legally required or necessary. Canadians should also actively monitor their financial information, including by contacting Canada's credit bureau.[Translation]A loss of a social insurance number does not necessarily mean that a fraud has occurred or will occur.However, should Canadians notice any fraudulent activity related to their social insurance number, they must act quickly to minimize the potential impact by reporting any incidents to the police, contacting the Privacy Commissioner and the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre, and informing Service Canada. In cases where there is evidence of the social insurance number being used for fraudulent purposes, Service Canada works closely with those affected.Despite ever larger data breaches, the number of Canadians who have had their social insurance number replaced by Service Canada due to fraud has remained consistent at approximately 60 per year since 2014.That being said, we understand that many Canadians have signed a petition asking Service Canada to issue new social insurance numbers for those impacted by this data breach. The main reason we do not automatically issue a new social insurance number in these circumstances is simple: getting a new social insurance number will not protect individuals from fraud. The former social insurance number continues to exist and is linked to the individual. If a fraudster uses someone else's former social insurance number and their identity is not fully verified, credit lenders may still ask the victim of fraud to pay the debts.In addition, it would be the individual's responsibility to provide their new social insurance number to each of their financial institutions, creditors, pension providers, employers—current and past—and any other organizations. Failing to properly do so could put individuals at risk of not receiving benefits or leave the door open to subsequent fraud or identity theft.It would also mean doubling the monitoring. Individuals would still need to monitor their accounts and credit reports for both social insurance numbers on a regular and ongoing basis. Having multiple social insurance numbers increases the risk of potential fraud.Active monitoring through credit bureaus as well as regular reviewing of banking and credit card statements remain the best protection against fraud.In closing, protecting the integrity of the social insurance number is critical to us, and I can assure you that we will continue to take all necessary action to do so, including reading this committee's report and considering advice from this committee and others on how to best improve.Thank you for your time. I'd be happy to answer your questions.Computer crimeCrime preventionCrime reportingDepartment of Employment and Social DevelopmentDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus): (1455)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Boisjoly.Would anyone else like to speak before we go to questions?Mr. Guénette, you have the floor.EliseBoisjolyMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénetteMaxime-GuénetteInterventionMr. Maxime Guénette (Assistant Commissioner and Chief Privacy Officer, Public Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency): (1455)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon to all committee members.[English] My name is Maxime Guénette. I'm assistant commissioner of the public affairs branch and chief privacy officer at the Canada Revenue Agency. With me today is my colleague Gillian Pranke, deputy assistant commissioner of the assessment, benefit and service branch at the CRA.The CRA is an organization that touches the lives of virtually all Canadians. We're one of the largest holders of personal information at the Government of Canada. We process more than 28 million individual income tax returns annually. It's therefore critical that the CRA has an extensive privacy framework in place to manage and protect personal information for all Canadians.[Translation]Integrity in the workplace is the cornerstone of agency culture. The agency supports its people in doing the right thing by providing clear guidelines and tools to ensure privacy, security and the protection of personal information, our programs and our data.The agency is subject to the Privacy Act and associated Treasury Board policies and directives for the management and protection of Canadians' personal information. Section 241 of the Income Tax Act also imposes confidentiality requirements on its employees and others with access to taxpayer information.The agency also adheres to the policy on government security and direction provided by lead security agencies like the Communications Security Establishment and the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security.In April 2013, the agency appointed its first chief privacy officer, who is also responsible for the access to information and privacy functions within the agency.[English]Part of my role as the chief privacy officer is to ensure that the CRA's respect for the privacy of the information it holds is reinforced and strengthened by overseeing decisions related to privacy, including assessing the privacy impacts of our programs; championing privacy rights within the agency, including managing internal privacy breaches when they occur; and reporting to CRA senior management on the state of privacy management at the agency. Our responsibility for sound privacy management goes beyond appointing a chief privacy officer, though. It's a responsibility that all employees share. Protecting the CRA's integrity includes ensuring that we have the proper systems in place to safeguard sensitive information from external threats. Agency networks and workstations are equipped with malware and virus detection and removal software, which are updated daily and protect the CRA environment from the increasing threat of malicious code and viruses.[Translation]At the agency employee level, computers are secured with a suite of security products ranging from anti-virus software to host intrusion software.External services are conducted on secure platforms and protected by firewalls and intrusion prevention tools to detect and prevent unauthorized access to agency systems.During online transactions we ensure that all sensitive information is encrypted when it is transmitted between a taxpayer's computer and our Web servers. Regardless of how Canadians choose to interact with the agency, they must complete a two-step authentication process before gaining access to their account.These steps are crucial to making sure that access to personal information is only available to authorized individuals. The process includes validation of a number of personal and confidential data points, including a person's social insurance number, their month and year of birth, and information from the previous year's income tax return.[English] The CRA will shortly also be implementing a new personal identification number for taxpayers who choose to use it when calling the individual inquiries line. In addition, the CRA is currently examining additional security procedures to safeguard the information of taxpayers. As cybercrime and phishing scams become more sophisticated and commonplace, the CRA is being proactive in warning the public about fraudulent communications claiming to be from the CRA.One very simple way in which taxpayers can safeguard against fraudulent activity is to sign up for My Account, or for businesses to sign up for My Business Account, so that they can use the CRA's secure portals to access and manage their tax affairs easily and securely. When an individual is signed up for My Account, they can also sign up for online mail in order to receive account alerts informing them of possible scams or other fraudulent activity that may affect them.CRA is proud of its reputation as a leading-edge organization committed to excellence in administering Canada's tax system. However, inappropriate fraudulent activity can occur in the workplace. CRA has incorporated a broad array of checks and balances to ensure that those who access taxpayer information are strictly limited to employees required to do so as part of their job and to detect misconduct when it does occur.(1500)[Translation]Monitoring of employees' access to taxpayer information is centralized, ensuring an independent process that enables the agency to detect and, if necessary, address any suspect transactions in our systems. This provides assurance that authorized users are accessing only the applications and data they are allowed to access based on strict business rules.[English]In 2017 the CRA implemented a new enterprise fraud management solution, which complements existing security controls and further reduces the risk of unauthorized access and privacy breaches. This solution enables proactive monitoring and detection of unauthorized access by CRA employees. Any allegations or suspicions of employee misconduct are taken very seriously and are thoroughly investigated. When wrongdoing or misconduct is founded, appropriate measures are taken, up to and including termination of employment. If criminal activity is suspected, the matter is referred to the proper authorities.[Translation]Upon hire, agency employees are required to read and acknowledge the agency's code of integrity and professional conduct and the values and ethics code for the public sector.The code clearly outlines the expected standard of conduct, including the obligation to protect taxpayer information in accordance with section 241 of the Income Tax Act. Unauthorized access to taxpayer information is considered to be serious misconduct, as reflected in the agency's directive on discipline.[English]The code ensures that current and former employees are aware that the obligation to protect taxpayer information continues even after they leave the CRA. All employees are asked to review and affirm their obligations under the CRA's code of integrity every year.In the event a privacy breach does occur, it is assessed in accordance with TBS policy and procedures to document and evaluate all potential risks to the affected individual. In such a case, the CRA offers support to the affected individual through a dedicated agency representative so that the client has the opportunity to ask questions and find information as well as, on a case-by-case basis, get access to free credit protection services.On the rare occasion when a taxpayer's information is confirmed to have been compromised, the CRA will act to resolve all outstanding issues. This includes reviewing all fraudulent activity that may have occurred in the account, including fraudulent refund payments.[Translation]We at the agency are deeply committed to safeguarding the trust Canadians place in our organization, and to meeting their expectations that we have the right checks and balances in place to secure the information entrusted to us. We have worked hard to earn the public's trust, because it is the foundation of our self-assessment tax system.[English]A good reputation takes years to establish. We safeguard it by remaining vigilant in our efforts to protect taxpayers from security breaches and to protect Canada's tax administration system from misconduct and criminal wrongdoing.Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd be pleased to answer any questions you may have.Allegations of fraud and fraudCanada Revenue AgencyComputer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionWeb sitesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus): (1500)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Guénette.If there is no one else, we will begin the question period.Mr. Drouin, you have seven minutes.MaximeGuénetteFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1500)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I thank all witnesses for appearing before the committee on short notice.I should mention that I am one of the victims of the data breach at Desjardins, as are many of my constituents.Ms. Boisjoly, you referred to the online petition asking that the social insurance numbers of those affected be changed. Can you explain to the committee why that would not be done and why it would only complicate things without providing better security for Canadians?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1500)[Translation]I briefly mentioned that in my presentation and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about it at greater length.First, an information leak does not necessarily mean that fraud or identity theft has occurred. Second, we do not automatically change social insurance numbers after a leak like this because it doesn't really solve the problem or automatically remove all risk of fraud.Let me explain that first point a little more. If you do not change the social insurance number linked to a certain credit number and if a credit agency uses the old credit number, the person involved will not necessarily be able to get credit. In addition, if a lender does not properly check the identity of that person, and a fraudster borrows money using his name, the lender could ask him to pay the debt. So there can be other cases of fraud if lenders do not correctly check people's identity.The second reason is that it can create serious problems of access to benefits and services. As I said in my presentation, victims of data breaches must warn everyone, financial institutions, credit agencies, past and future employers, and the managers of pension schemes to which they belonged with their old social insurance numbers, and make the necessary changes. Often, people no longer remember those to whom they have given their social insurance number, especially at the beginning of their careers. That can prevent people from receiving a pension, for example, because it is no longer possible to establish a link between an individual and the benefits to which they are entitled.At federal level, we would certainly advise the Canadian Revenue Agency and all organizations involved. But changes could be made manually and there may be errors. This could complicate the calculation of pensions or employment insurance benefits. If someone forgets an employer and makes errors, the calculation of employment insurance benefits or the old age pension could be wrong.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1505)[Translation]In other words, changing our social insurance number does not necessarily protect our personal information.Why is another social insurance number issued in cases where fraud has been proven?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1505)[Translation]When fraud has been proven, we look at the type of fraud and discuss the matter with the person involved. Often people decide not to change their social insurance numbers. They register, or have someone register them, at a credit checking agency. By so doing, they will be better protected than they would be if they changed their social insurance number. Often, having been informed, people decide not to change their social insurance number. In a very small number of cases, 60 per year since 2014, people insist on making a change when fraud has been confirmed. At that point, we allow a new social insurance number to be issued, but we will also explain that it will not necessarily solve the problem.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1505)[Translation]Here is a more practical question.Like everyone in the same situation as myself, I see a risk of fraud. How then can I advise the authorities, whether at Revenue Canada or Service Canada, that my social insurance number may perhaps be used fraudulently? Can I call Service Canada to advise them of that? Is there an internal process that allows the public to do that?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1505)[Translation]Absolutely. Let me make two points about that.First, since this leak was made public, we have received between 1,400 and 1,500 requests directly from members of the public. They have called us to find out how to better protect their personal data and we have given them a lot of information about doing so. They will often take the steps that we advise them to take, such as looking at the credit agency reports and checking their bank transactions.Second, if they notice a suspicious activity, they must follow the very clear procedures to give us that information. If suspicious transactions are detected, we ask them to contact Service Canada, which will be able to take the steps needed to help them.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1505)[Translation]Okay.The website lists 29 cases in which Canadians are allowed to give out their social insurance numbers. To banking institutions and other entities, for example.What does Service Canada do so that Canadians know when they should give out their social insurance number and when they should not? What recourse is possible when an organization asks for a social insurance number when it should not do so?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1510)[Translation]Our website, our call centres and the Service Canada centres tell Canadians who they may give their social insurance numbers to. When we issue social insurance numbers, we actually tell people who they should and should not give it to. A certain number of organizations are authorized to ask for social insurance numbers, for example when a bank or creditor pays interest, which the Canada Revenue Agency needs to know.If someone not on that list asks for a social insurance number, people can refuse and ask to provide another form of information. For example, a long time ago, landlords often asked tenants for social insurance numbers in order to check their credit. They can simply provide a credit report rather than give out their social insurance number. The person asking the question must—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English] Thank you.It's helpful if the witnesses look at the chair from time to time so that I can signal them.EliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1510)[English]Thank you very much.These glasses just—JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[Translation]Mr. Paul-Hus, you have seven minutes, please.EliseBoisjolyPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1510)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My thanks to you all for being here today.Listening to you is like being in The Twelve Tasks of Asterix. Let us put ourselves in people's shoes. Their concern is that they have no real idea of what will happen. We asked to meet with you so that we could have some information on the subject. We know that the social insurance number is one measure but is there anything else that should be done in the future to change the system? Could we do as other countries have done, such as providing more digital identification, whether it is by means of fingerprints or something else?Ms. Boisjoly, you say that there about 60 cases per year, but look, 2.9 million people had their data stolen. Are you expecting a major increase in the number of requested changes of social insurance numbers following these identity thefts?I also have a question for you, Mr. Guénette.The people following what is currently happening want to know what is being done. You proposed a good solution, and solutions are what people need. You mentioned people going on the Government of Canada site and opening their financial records. If I understand correctly, by opening your records, you can receive alerts or warnings.It has now been three weeks. We are here today as the result of an emergency request. Why was there no communication with the public, immediately or within a week following the thefts, to let people know what the Government of Canada can do to help? That's what we need to know.I am all ears, Ms. Boisjoly.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1510)[Translation]Thank you.To answer your first question on new measures, every situation like this gives us the opportunity to review our security and privacy protection measures. All of our colleagues and myself certainly focus on that when there are incidents of this kind. The colleagues who have gone before us spoke a lot about the evolution of cybersecurity. They said that we always have to be ready. We are certainly always focused on that.My colleague mentioned the Treasury Board, whose mandate includes identity management. They are focusing on ways in which we can better solve the problems associated with digital identity, specifically by conducting pilot projects with the provinces. We participate in those forums, and we are thinking of ways to move the discussion on digital identity forward.Second, in terms of the number of identity thefts, we have been advised of many in the last 14 or 15 years. Probably millions of people have already been affected and, despite that, the number asking for a new social insurance number remains rather low. So I cannot answer your question, because I am not aware of the future, but I can say that there have been a lot of thefts and that the number seems constant, around 60 per year.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénetteMaxime-GuénetteInterventionMr. Maxime Guénette: (1510)[Translation]Thank you for the question, Mr. Paul-Hus.As Ms. Boisjoly said, there is never a bad time to remind people about the things they can do. At tax time, we conducted advertising campaigns and communication initiatives online and on social media to remind people about the services at their disposal. However, more can always be done. We are always looking for opportunities to communicate more in this respect. So—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1515)[Translation]Okay, but the case before us is about managing a crisis. We are here to find out whether a federal organization can lend a hand to Desjardins, who are taking their own steps to rectify the situation as best they can. Currently, I see some inter-agency measures but really no proactive measures to help Canadians, aside from a message that has already been sent out.In your opinion, why does the government seem to be so passive? Why is it saying nothing? Is it because nothing can be done? Is there no solution?We are looking for solutions because people are concerned. If you are telling us that current agencies do not have the means or the tools to help them, we are going to look for other solutions.Are solutions like the one Desjardins proposed, the Equifax services, quite effective in your experience and as you assess this situation? We are looking to reassure people with things that are true. We don’t want to say just anything.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénetteMaxime-GuénetteInterventionMr. Maxime Guénette: (1515)[Translation]Currently, because the investigation is still in progress, there is a lot of information…Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1515)[Translation]The investigation has nothing to do with it because we know how the data breach happened. We also have an idea of where the data was sent, but, at the moment, that is not what we are interested in. We know that someone, somewhere on the planet, has our information and is in a position to harm us by stealing our identity. So we want to know whether our agencies can become proactively involved or, if not, what can be done.You have a solution in my case, so that is already something that the public could be told about. It is important to do that quickly because people are not in a very good mood during their holidays. Then we will have to see if something else can be done.The issue of the social insurance number has come up everywhere. A number of suggestions have been made. You are responsible for that file and you are saying that nothing can be done, at least not in that way. These are the answers that people need to hear. But the fact remains that we have to leave here telling people what the government can do to help, first Desjardins and second, the 2.9 million people who have been affected. We are hearing a lot about internal protocols, but, for the Canadians listening to us, that does not mean a lot. This is why I want to hear clear answers. I know that you are giving them when you can, but basically, when we leave here, we will need to know what can be done. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénetteMaxime-GuénetteInterventionMr. Maxime Guénette: (1515)[Translation]I can assure you that very proactive discussions are going on between the various departments involved.As far as the revenue agency is concerned, as I said in my remarks, the social insurance number, the address and the date of birth are some of the pieces of information people need in order to identify themselves to the agency. We also need information on tax returns from previous years, which was not in the information stolen from Desjardins, according to the discussions we have had. However, once again, the investigation is still in progress. So these questions—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1515)[Translation]As I told you, that really changes nothing. How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?MaximeGuénetteJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English] You have about 10 seconds.PierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1515)[Translation]What is the first thing people should do if their identity is stolen? Call the police? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1515)[Translation]Yes.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénetteMaxime-GuénetteInterventionMr. Maxime Guénette: (1515)[Translation]Certainly.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes.MaximeGuénetteMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1515)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you all for taking the time to come here today.Ms. Boisjoly, I was struck by one point in your reply to Mr. Drouin. You said that a personal data breach does not lead to identity theft. That is basically what brings us here today. Canadians want to avoid identity theft, of course; it’s their main concern. I have some questions about it.You said that people should report suspicious activities associated with a social insurance number. I am a federal lawmaker and I don’t know what a suspicious activity associated with a social insurance number is. I have never been a victim of fraud, thank heavens, and the same goes for the people around me, touch wood. However, I do know people who have been victims. They find out when they receive a bill for a cellphone they do not have, or for a Canadian Tire credit card that they never applied for. They end up with debts and obligations that are not theirs. Can you tell me exactly what a suspicious activity associated with a social insurance number is?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1515)[Translation]Thank you for your question.You have certainly identified some suspicious activities, as you say. We ask people to protect themselves as best they can by working with a credit bureau so that transactions are monitored as closely as possible. They should look at their bank and credit card transactions. If they see actions in their name that they did not make, we asked them to contact the bureau—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1520)[Translation]I am sorry for interrupting you, but my time is limited and I only have one round.The suspicious activities or problematic transactions that we may be able to see on our credit card statements can be associated with all kinds of things. It may be someone who has stolen our mail and obtained our address. That is information that is probably easier to obtain. You rightly mentioned that, in terms of the situation we are discussing today, the person has complementary information. In principle, with all the information that has been stolen, that person could easily call Revenue Canada and obtain a new password. If you have someone’s entire file, you have all the information you need.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1520)[Translation]Yes, and that is the most important point. We are talking about a number of identifiers. Each one of the organizations is responsible for checking people’s identity.My colleague said that there must also be a line from the tax return. With employment insurance, there is an access code and you are asked to provide the two figures in that access code. When we are checking identities, we must make sure that we ask questions about identities that are secret and shared only with the people we know. That allows us to better verify people’s identity and to provide them with the service. For example, you would not be able to call Service Canada and obtain employment insurance benefits with the information that has been made public at the moment.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1520)[Translation]As for getting a new social insurance number, I have a little difficulty understanding. Basically, the argument is that it becomes complicated for people. In principle, a social insurance number is issued for reasons of efficiency. A unique identifier makes transactions with government agencies easier.Forgive me if this analogy may not be an exact one. If I see a problem with my credit card today, the bank or the company that issued it is still able to transfer a balance or to link the legitimate transactions on my credit card that has been used fraudulently and the new one it sent to me.Why would a financial institution be able to do that, while you are not able to say that someone’s social insurance number has been compromised and to give them a new number? A former employer, for example, might have to take care of questions about that person’s pension. Knowing that is the same person, why are you not able to link the previous social insurance number to a new one? You may perhaps have to do some additional checking, given that the number has been compromised. But I am still having a little difficulty understanding why you can’t do it. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1520)[Translation]When you started, you said that the first reason we do not automatically give out social insurance numbers is that it can make life difficult for people. The first reason is actually that it would not really prevent fraud. This is a very important point. People have to continue to check their previous social insurance number because there are still—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1520)[Translation]I am sorry to interrupt you, but, if I lose my credit card, it does not necessarily mean that it has been stolen. It may have fallen down a sewer somewhere, meaning that it will never be seen or used again. I would still call my bank, Visa or whomever, to ask them to cancel the card. I would still keep checking and I would have some peace of mind, knowing that I am protected.Why not use the same logic for victims of breaches of personal data, especially ones that are all over the news? To make sure they are protected, people want to dot all the i's and cross all the t's that they can. They change their credit cards and everything, as they do when they lose their wallets. Why not proceed in the same way?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1520)[Translation]A social insurance number is not like a credit card, which is a bank's only way of identifying that person. It is an identifier used by employers for as long as people are in the workforce. It is also used for various programs and services.At the moment, no computer system links all those systems so that social insurance numbers can be updated by employers and by the various groups and programs. That task would be done manually. That is why we do not know all the employers. In the federal government, it would be done manually. As I said, we have only done it a few times. There is a risk of errors. I am just mentioning this to the committee.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1525)[Translation]I have less than a minute left.At the risk of tangling ourselves up in technical details, I would like to understand this better. If an employer wants to use a social insurance number, how does that work? Surely, things come together in some way when you move up the ladder.I have one final question, which goes back to what Mr. Paul-Hus rightly said.Let me take Quebec as an example. When there is flooding, police forces and the Government of Quebec hold public consultations on the spot so that people can attend.Mr. Guénette, I respect what you said, but perhaps advertising campaigns or posts on social media are not enough.Given the extent of this theft, this breach, have you considered organizing consultations in person in the key places in Québec, the major centres of Longueuil, Montreal and elsewhere?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English] Again, Mr. Dubé has asked an important question but has not left any time for an answer, so you'll have to work it in somewhere else. Usually you're so good, Mr. Dubé. [Translation]Welcome to the committee, Ms. Lapointe. You have seven minutes.MatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.): (1525)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon to you all and thank you for joining us.I do not normally sit on this committee, but I gladly agreed to replace one of its permanent members.I have had discussions with a number of my constituents in Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, which is to the north of Montreal and includes Deux-Montagnes, Saint-Eustache, Boisbriand and Rosemère. They are very concerned. This is something that has come up all the time since the House adjourned on June 21. That is why I agreed to be here today without hesitation, even though I am not familiar with all the studies that this committee has done.Ms. Ryan, earlier, you began by saying that the Department of Finance establishes the legislation and regulations that govern the Canadian banking system. You then said that oversight of the Canadian financial sector is shared between the federal and provincial governments.Let us look specifically at Quebec. The provinces are responsible for real estate brokers, and mutual funds and investment representatives, and so on. Desjardins is a provincial cooperative institution. Just now, I mentioned my constituents, but my entire family and myself are also among the 2.9 million people affected. This concerns us a great deal and we are wondering what will be the future impact of this theft on our lives.Have you had any requests from Desjardins? Mr. Guénette said that there are ongoing discussions between departments, but have people from Desjardins been in communication with you to get additional information?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyanAnnette-RyanInterventionMs. Annette Ryan: (1525)[English]To the extent that Desjardins is largely provincially regulated, their first point of contact with a government regulator would be with the Autorité des marchés financiers in Quebec. When I spoke of the system of banking rules and regulations in place federally, that applies to the institutions that have elected to be federally regulated.To the extent that Desjardins is largely provincially regulated, many of the operational requirements put in place in advance of this incident would have been worked through with the Autorité des marchés financiers. My colleague from OSFI can speak to how that is put in place at the federal level. In this incident the institution stepped forward and took a number of responsible measures very quickly to be transparent about the leak. That is consistent with both provincial law and federal law in terms of privacy, and the federal and provincial privacy commissioners have struck a joint investigation to look into this incident, but many of the provisions for not just the conduct of the financial regulation of Desjardins but also the consumer protections are provincial in this case. We can speak to the federal system, but I would direct many of the questions you may have to those responsible at the provincial level. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1530)[Translation]I have one other question. Are credit bureaus in federal jurisdiction?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyanAnnette-RyanInterventionMs. Annette Ryan: (1530)[English]It's largely provincial, and in this case it is provincial. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1530)[Translation]Okay.Have people from Equifax been in communication with you?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyanAnnette-RyanInterventionMs. Annette Ryan: (1530)[English]Equifax would not be in touch with us or the department, and they are largely regulated for consumer issues at the provincial level for this.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1530)[Translation]Thank you. I have used half of my time and so I am now going to turn to you, Mr. Guénette.You talked earlier about the external rules on preventing identity theft, but you have not spoken a lot about the internal rules. I would like to know about the internal rules in the Canada Revenue Agency. After all, we are here today because data was stolen from the inside. How do things work at the Canada Revenue Agency? Do the employees have to be at certain levels in order to have access to the systems? You talked about centralizing or detecting problems by intervening if necessary. You said that there are strict rules and I would like you to tell me a little more about them. Can people work with their own electronic equipment when they are in front of Canada Revenue Agency screens? I would like to know more about that.Canada Revenue AgencyComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAnnetteRyanMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénetteMaxime-GuénetteInterventionMr. Maxime Guénette: (1530)[Translation]Thank you for your question.Of course, we have security rules at several levels. First, we screen the staff that we hire. People with more specific access have “Secret” security clearance instead of a lower level of clearance. A whole host of physical security measures are in place. People working in call centres, who have access to screens showing taxpayer information, may not have their personal phones with them. We have measures in that regard. As for access to taxpayers' data, those data are on separate servers that are not connected to the Internet. There is a mechanism by which the employees' access to the data is reviewed annually, or each time they change jobs. Managers verify the access those employees have on a regular basis.As for the workload, in my introductory remarks, I talked about the administrative rules. When we give employees their workload, our business fraud management system checks by using algorithms in real time. The system applies several dozen rules. For example, if employees check their own tax accounts, an alert is automatically issued and the system sees it immediately. If employees work on tasks that they have not been assigned, the system will immediately send an alert to the manager, who would then be able to ask an employee what he or she was doing in the system. Screen shots are captured per minute, which allows us to see which pages employees are consulting or which changes they have made. The system was implemented in 2017 and it is very advanced. It allows us to have controls in place. In terms of preventing data breaches, employees are unable to copy information onto CDs, DVDs or USB keys. The system does not allow it.Canada Revenue AgencyComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1530)[Translation]Thank you.MaximeGuénetteJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Lapointe.[English]We'll have Mr. Motz and Mr. Clarke.LindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1530)[English]Thank you, Chair. Again, thank you to the departmental officials for being here.I have just two quick questions for the Department of Finance. You say that your first objective is to prevent data breaches. We know the reality is that these happen and are not localized to the financial sector. Ms. Ryan, you said that when cybe events occur at a federally regulated institution, which is what we're talking about, control and oversight mechanisms are in place to manage them. Can you explain to Canadians in practical terms what that actually means when you play that out?Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJudyCameronJudyCameronJudy-CameronInterventionMs. Judy Cameron (Senior Director, Regulatory Affairs and Strategic Policy, Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions): (1535)[English] I'll take that question. I represent the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions. Our mandate is to supervise financial institutions and set rules for them so as to protect the interests of depositors and creditors. Broadly speaking we're looking at safety and soundness, but we also make sure they comply with all federal rules. For example, we expect them to have systems in place to comply with privacy laws.We set expectations around what institutions should be doing, such as complying with privacy laws. We also expect them to do cyber self-assessments to assess their own internal protections against cyber events. Then we supervise them to make sure they are complying with the expectations we have set out to make sure that they have good compliance management systems in place.Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityFederal institutionsOffice of the Superintendent of Financial InstitutionsPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1535)[English]Basically, it's just oversight. Now, in this particular circumstance, it's oversight of what's happened to make sure that—Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionJudyCameronJudyCameronJudyCameronJudy-CameronInterventionMs. Judy Cameron: (1535)[English]It's oversight of their systems to prevent this, really.Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1535)[English]Okay, so that's one question. The other question is for Ms. Ryan, or whoever might.... I'm just going to read the summary that you gave. You said that “cybersecurity is an area of critical importance for the Department of Finance. We are actively working with partners across government and the private sector to ensure that Canadians are well-protected from cybe -incidents and that when incidents do occur, they're managed in a way that mitigates the impact on consumers and the financial sector as a whole.”What does that actually look like to impacted consumers, to consumers at large, to the financial institution, to the banking industry, to various government departments? You can say that, but what does it actually look like?Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionJudyCameronAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyanAnnette-RyanInterventionMs. Annette Ryan: (1535)[English] I think that the number of federal partners you have had as witnesses today speaks to that. The investments in the cyber centre were part of the first line of defence in strengthening the ability to prevent cyber incidents, and they are focused, as André Boucher spoke to, on the appropriate response to a cyber event. In this case there was a specific type of cyber event, a breach by an employee, so many of those defences that have been built by the cyber centre were not triggered in this case, but the resources of the cyber centre are complemented by new resources for the RCMP. You heard the RCMP speak about the national cybercrime centre and their efforts at the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre.We also realize that a cyber event or a data event does play out on the privacy side. Therefore, measures such as the new requirements for businesses to notify customers that there has been a breach are a key part of a citizen's ability to be vigilant about their own finances and to know that important information about them has been put into play. A monitoring service like Equifax is important because it helps put that person into the mix to know when something that's being done in their name is not right. Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1535)[English] I have just one quick follow-up question to that. If I were one of the 2.9 million Canadians impacted by this circumstance, or one of the millions in this country who have already been impacted by data breaches of various varieties, I would want assistance in getting my life back, like them. Right now there is a lot of talk about what that looks like, but in practical terms, Canadians want to know how to get their lives back. They want to mitigate the risks and the impacts that a breach like this has on their personal lives, on their financial futures and on those of their families. I'm curious; it seems that the Department of Finance has a role to play in having a location from which Canadians can find the information they need, follow a template, call numbers, or whatever it may be to help get their lives in order, because this is, and will be, devastating to those whom these criminals are going to take advantage of.As government, we have a responsibility to ensure that we protect Canadians as well as we can. This is not going to go away.Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionAnnetteRyanJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]I'm going to have to leave it there. I thank you for your witness.Colleagues, I need some guidance here. Our next witnesses are outside, and, as you know, are under some time constraints. I propose suspending. The question, colleagues, is do you want to suspend and release these witnesses, or do you want to suspend and ask these witnesses to remain so that we can have our final rounds of questioning?GlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1540)[English]If they're willing to stay, I'd like to ask my questions.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1540)[English]I would like to intervene with these witnesses, please.David de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]With that, I'm going to suspend. I'm going to ask the witnesses to leave the room, but to stay nearby, and after we finish with the next witness to come back—AlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1540)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I have some questions for the witnesses, but I will leave it up to you to decide on a good time for me to ask them.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]We'll look forward to that, Mr. Fortin. With that, we'll suspend for a couple of minutes while we bring in our next panel. Thank you. (1540)(1540)RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Colleagues, I'd ask you to take your seats.I ask the next set of witnesses to come forward—Mr. Brun, Mr. Cormier, and Monsieur Berthiaume. I would ask that the cameras leave, please. That's all of the cameras, including the CBC camera. Thank you.I want to thank you and your colleagues for coming, Mr. Cormier. Apparently you're fairly popular these days. We have encouraged witnesses to make brief statements, with the emphasis on their being brief, because there is an appetite on the part of members to ask questions. I'm informed of various times by which, I believe, you, Mr. Cormier, have to leave—and what time is that?JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier (President and Chief Executive Officer, Desjardins Group): (1540)[English] We're supposed to leave around 4:30, but maybe we can add—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]I'd encourage you to stretch that if you would.GuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1540)[English]Probably an hour would be okay.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English] Okay. I think we can live with an hour. Possibly your colleagues can stay after you leave. The issue is that this has been an emergency meeting and people have literally come from all over Canada to hear what you have to say.With that, I'll ask you to make whatever remarks you have and then we'll turn it over to questions. GuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1545)[English]Thank you very much. [Translation]Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. I'm joined this afternoon by Denis Berthiaume, Senior Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, and Bernard Brun, Vice-President, Government Relations, Desjardins Group.First, I want to say that, at Desjardins, we were ambivalent about this exceptional committee meeting.On the one hand, this meeting may seem premature, since we're in the process of managing this situation and the police investigations are ongoing. It's far too early to assess the situation. As such, we intend to tell you everything that we know, but in a way that won't interfere with the ongoing investigations.On the other hand, we see this special meeting as an opportunity to inform legislators and the public about the security of personal information and the need to rethink the concept of digital identity in Canada. In my reflection process, this point prevailed.First, I'll state the obvious. What happened at Desjardins has happened elsewhere and could happen again in any private company or public organization whose mission involves personal information management. We can think of several banks around the world, such as the American bank Chase, Sun Trust, the Korea Credit Bureau, or a number of government entities in Canada and the United States, to name a few, that have been the victims of malicious employees.Desjardins is a leading financial institution and one of the largest cooperative financial groups in the world, with more than $300 billion in assets. In 2015, Bloomberg ranked the Desjardins Group as the strongest financial institution in North America, ahead of all Canadian banks. In other words, even the best aren't immune, and we believe that this message must be heard.Personally, I've been working at the Desjardins Group for 27 years. I chose this organization at the start of my career because the financial institution has managed, after nearly 120 years, to successfully combine the economic and social aspects of our society.The malicious actions of one employee led to this deplorable situation. That employee has now been dismissed. He violated all the rules of our cooperative. In this situation, we acted as quickly as possible and as transparently as possible, with the sole objective of protecting the interests of our members. That was our priority. On June 20, a few days after learning of the extent of the situation, we went public and shared all the information available, in conjunction with the police forces. At that time, we also announced the measures implemented to address the privacy breach.We've taken all the necessary measures to address the situation. We quickly implemented additional monitoring and protection measures to protect the personal and financial information of our members and clients. We informed all the relevant authorities, including the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, the Commission d'accès à l'information du Québec, the Autorité des marchés financiers, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, and the Quebec and federal departments of finance.We've implemented additional measures to confirm the identity of individuals when they contact us. We're constantly monitoring all our members' accounts. The procedures for confirming the identity of our members and clients when they call the Desjardins caisses, Desjardins Business centres and our AccèsD call centre have also been the focus of additional measures.We contacted the affected members through the AccèsD private messaging system and by personalized letter, to inform them of the situation and of the steps that they needed to take.We've also added extra measures to help with the activation of the Equifax monitoring package. The affected members can now register in four ways. They can register on the Equifax website, through the AccèsD telephone service, through the AccèsD web and mobile application, and directly in our Desjardins caisses by speaking with their advisor.We're actively working with the different police forces. Lastly, we're working with external experts to continue to protect our members' personal information. I can confirm that we acted diligently. After we received information from the Laval police service, we conducted an internal investigation and quickly traced the source of the breach to a single employee. The employee was suspended and then dismissed.At this time, our main priority is to reassure, assist, support and protect each and every member affected by the situation.(1550)Again this morning, we announced new protection measures for all our members. In this digital age, we at Desjardins believe that all our members must be protected.As I was saying, Desjardins announced this morning that, from now on, all members of our cooperative will be protected from unauthorized financial transactions and identity theft. Membership is automatic and free of charge, regardless of whether they've been affected by the data breach. Since this morning, Desjardins has been protecting all its individual and corporate members. This sets a precedent in the financial services world in Canada. We're the first institution to take this step. In this situation, Desjardins is acting with rigour, a sense of duty and the willingness to honour its special relationship with its members.We've entered an age where data is a resource on par with water, wood and the raw material needed to run entire sectors of our economy. Data is now the raw material for a whole innovative economy that will lead to tremendous productivity gains and make life easier for Canadians. Canada is a few months away from the implementation of 5G mobile connectivity, which will increase the flow of data tenfold. According to experts, this ultra-fast connectivity will lead to futuristic applications related to artificial intelligence. Canada is already among the world leaders in this area with its three hubs, Montreal, Toronto and Edmonton. In addition, as we speak, the Department of Finance Canada is in the process of conducting a consultation on open banking, which would help open up the transactional sector. Several European countries have already made the shift.I'll humbly ask you, the legislators, the following questions.Is Canada currently well equipped to manage these promising technological developments, which also involve new risks? Should our identification systems be adapted to the digital age to ensure the protection of privacy and to better deal with cybercriminals? This issue is the whole notion of digital identity, which I referred to a few minutes ago.I want to respectfully point out that these are real issues raised by the situation at Desjardins.In closing, I want to make a proposal. I'd like to invite the committee to recommend to the Government of Canada the creation of an ad hoc multi-stakeholder working group to advise the government on how to regulate the management of personal data and digital identities. We believe that a group that listens to Canadians' concerns should at least include representatives of governments, the financial services and insurance sector, and the telecommunications sector, along with jurists and experts, or any other group that the government deems it appropriate to involve in the reflection process.The mandate of this committee should consist of advising the government on legislation and regulations; ensuring the protection of the public; encouraging innovative technological development for the benefit of Canadians and communities; and ensuring the strategic monitoring of best practices around the world, so that Canada is always up to date.I personally believe that Canada can't pursue excellence in digital technology and artificial intelligence without having the same ambition for data and personal information management. We must all learn from the current situation at the Desjardins Group.Thank you.Computer crimeConsumers and consumer protectionCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupDigital identityFinancial service industriesInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionPublic consultationJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Cormier.Mr. Picard, you have seven minutes.GuyCormierMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1550)[Translation]Welcome, Mr. Brun, Mr. Cormier and Mr. Berthiaume. Thank you for participating in this exercise. Your presence is greatly appreciated.Mr. Cormier, I'll start by reassuring you that, last January or even earlier, the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security and the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics began to address issues related to the unique identifier. We looked at models from abroad, including Estonia's model, which raises a number of other issues. Before I ask you some more practical questions, I want to point out that the unique identifier is one of the cybersecurity issues. When someone gets their hands on the unique identifier, we'll be faced with the same issue.I'm pleased to hear that you're offering protection to all your members. However, financial institutions tend to charge their clients to protect the clients' data from identity theft. The financial institutions themselves make the offer. Do you have the same philosophy?To have my salary deposited into my bank account and to make transactions, automatic withdrawals and Interac payments, I must give my name, address and social insurance number to the institution that I'm dealing with. However, I must use a third party to protect this information. Why do I need to rely on someone other than the entity to which I give the information?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1555)[Translation]To answer the first part of your question, we made the decision this morning to set up a protection program for all our individual and corporate members. The corporate component sometimes isn't covered by other institutions or even by Equifax. We've decided to offer this service free of charge to our members as long as they stay at Desjardins. We won't charge them anything. I want to quickly reiterate that the program covers all unauthorized financial transactions involving a person's account, deposits and money. If a transaction hasn't been authorized, we'll reimburse the person. That's one thing.Second, if a person is unfortunately a victim of identity theft, we'll provide assistance, not a list of the steps to take. We'll call on our experts to provide assistance, and the experts may even participate in conference calls to help the person recover their identity.Third, we'll provide coverage of up to $50,000 to reimburse members for expenses that they may have incurred, such as lost wages, child care costs or the cost of obtaining documents.This concept of free service is extremely important to us. If you're a member of the cooperative, you have access to the program. We humbly propose that a committee be established to, among other things, address the issue of whether privacy should be managed by third party companies. I think that the status quo isn't an option.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1555)[Translation]There are two issues involved in what I consider the temporary solution of dealing with a third party. You're asking people to deal with a third party to protect their personal information. Two years ago, this third party was also the victim of hacking. We conducted a study on the matter here.How liable would you be if your clients' personal information were hacked from the entity that you trust, such as Equifax? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1555)[Translation]That's a relevant question. In Canada, Equifax is the firm with a market share of over 70% in data and information protection and management.When the incident occurred, we decided to turn to the Canadian company that offered this service to Canadians. We worked with the company. However, in the days that followed, we noticed some issues. We quickly took our own steps to resolve the issues concerning member registration on the Equifax website. We went through this. We saw the need to improve the procedures and methods, and we took charge of the matter.Now, should one, two or three private companies in Canada manage all this? We must think about it.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1555)[Translation]Identity theft is unique in that the data is active and will always remain on the market, unless the person using it dies. The data is virtually present all over the world. It can be used on the black market after 24 hours, as in cases of debit or credit card fraud.The identity theft issue isn't about the security of the client's data at their own financial institution. I'm sure that your systems are up to date in terms of protection from external hacking and that you're fulfilling your responsibility to your clients by meeting the expectations of Quebecers and Canadians. If an issue arises in the account, you'll reimburse the criminally misappropriated money.The identity theft issue is as follows. Let's say that a person goes to a bank tomorrow morning. The person says that his name is Guy Cormier and that he needs a mortgage to purchase a house. The mortgage would be at the other bank and not at Desjardins.Identity theft causes damage in other areas. One example is the real estate flips in Saint-Lambert, in the South Shore, where people took out fake mortgages under fake identities. There were a baker's dozen, and that was only in Quebec. After that, it will be Canada and Europe. Identity theft has an impact, and it isn't limited to the Desjardins Group financial system.The protection that you're offering is appreciated and necessary. However, if I may say so, the protection is limited to the client's financial situation within their institution.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1600)[Translation]Basically, the thought process behind the new measure announced this morning is that we're in the digital age. There will be fewer and fewer paper transactions in the coming years. This data becomes raw material for our economy. Given the importance of the data, at Desjardins, we've taken on the responsibility of offering protection to all our members.I said that there were three pillars. The first pillar is the financial aspect that you're referring to. If Desjardins members see an unauthorized transaction in their transactions accounts, Desjardins will fully reimburse them. This answers the first part of your question on the financial transactions aspect.In terms of other types of identity theft involving credit card transactions made elsewhere, such as cellphone purchases or car rentals, people can contact Desjardins and they'll be taken care of. Second, if they need help with recovering their identity, not from a financial perspective, but in relation to other aspects of their private lives, Desjardins will support them. If we need to call government agencies or private firms, or help them prepare notarized documents or a presentation, we'll do so. We're no longer talking about the financial aspect. We'll help the people with the other steps that they may need to take.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionMichelPicardMontarvilleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English] Thank you, Monsieur Picard.[Translation]Mr. Paul-Hus, you have seven minutes.GuyCormierPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1600)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for joining us, Mr. Cormier.We fully understand that this situation is very emotional and complicated for Desjardins. Mr. Cormier, you said that it was premature to hold a committee meeting. I want to point out to everyone again that the Conservatives requested this meeting, with the NDP's support, to see how the federal government could help Desjardins and the nearly three million affected members.The objective isn't to investigate the situation or to find out how the data was stolen. The police are in charge of that aspect. For my part, I hope that the individual will be punished to the full extent of the law. I hope that the law is strong enough to send him to prison for a long time, but that's another matter.We've met with officials from various departments, including the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency. These are large departments. However, it's difficult to know whether the Government of Canada can be useful in this situation.I want to know whether you've received effective support from the government. If not, what could the government do to help you?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1600)[Translation]There are two or three parts to my response. When this incident occurred, we contacted several federal and provincial government agencies. We spoke with the different departments of finance. I want to tell you that the departments were very helpful and supportive. Bernard Brun can confirm that very clear and open discussions were held.I've noticed that both the federal and provincial government authorities want to reassure the public. You have no idea how important this is to us. Sometimes, we see what's being written and said. I understand that people have concerns and questions. As MPs, you must hear about many of them from the people in your constituencies.I can see that the federal and provincial government officials want to reassure people and give them the proper information. This is very helpful to Desjardins. People must be told to contact us so that we can introduce them to the programs that we announced this morning. Whenever we meet with people in our caisses or client contact centres, we're in direct contact with them and we reassure them.We don't want to trivialize the situation. However, according to several studies and several experts who are currently assisting us, there's a clear difference between a data breach and what happens in a real data theft. This isn't a “one-to-one” case. The proportions are very small.By adding the protection that we announced this morning, we're telling all our members, including businesses, not to worry. If any issues arise, they should call Desjardins. We'll assist them.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1605)[Translation]Since the incident, you've offered the affected members a free five-year Equifax membership. Is the new protection announced this morning a lifetime membership, or is it new internal protection?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1605)[Translation]Exactly. There's new internal protection. As I said, it's the first pillar. If people see an unauthorized transaction posted to their account, they must notify Desjardins. We'll then review the transaction with them and give them a full reimbursement. I must point out that there's no limit, whether the amount is $10,000 or $100,000.Second, if they're victims of identity theft, they must contact us. We'll assist them and hold conference calls. We even offer a period of psychological support, through our life insurance companies, to people who are going through this highly emotional situation.Third, it's the new $50,000 protection for people who must incur personal expenses to recover their identity. Desjardins will cover these expenses. This is extremely important.I want to reiterate that people who are victims of the data breach must continue to actively register for Equifax services, since this gives them access to the alert service. The alert service could notify them of an unauthorized transaction in the following weeks or months, and this service isn't included in the Desjardins package. The Desjardins Group strongly recommends that members who are victims of the breach register for Equifax services.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1605)[Translation]I'm a Desjardins member, but also a Royal Bank client—Mr. Guy Cormier: Thank you.Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: The Royal Bank has a system that I didn't know about. I learned about it from an employee last weekend. The Royal Bank site has a link to the TransUnion site. When I click on the link, my credit report and credit rating appear. It's completely free.Will Desjardins provide a similar service?Computer crimeCredit ratingDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionTransUnion CanadaGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1605)[Translation]I'll let Mr. Berthiaume answer that. He'll undoubtedly be very happy to do so.PierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume (Senior Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Desjardins Group): (1605)[Translation]We provide the same type of service with TransUnion. On the web and on mobile devices, you can access your credit rating in real time. With regard to the alert system, I think that we've explained it well. We work with Equifax, but we're also considering the possibility of providing an alert system with TransUnion.Computer crimeCredit ratingDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionTransUnion CanadaGuyCormierPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1605)[Translation]You've done an extraordinary job of putting all this in place. Congratulations. I now want to talk about Canadians who are afraid that their data, which has been sent somewhere in the world, will be used to make transactions or for any other purpose. You can't be responsible for everyone. You have a responsibility to your members, and 90% of Quebecers are Desjardins members. However, you can't know whether data sent abroad comes from this particular breach.In other words, if my stolen data is sent abroad, will you still cover me, even though the data could have been sent from another source?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1605)[Translation]The current situation at Desjardins was not our only reason for making this morning's proposal, but we certainly sped up the process. At the beginning of each year, we do some planning. Based on security, our new products and our new offers, we consider what we should offer our members according to their needs.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1605)[Translation]I'll interrupt you, because I made things unnecessarily complicated. What I meant was that even though a data breach occurred on your side, another organization may be sending my information elsewhere. In this case, wouldn't the government have some level of responsibility? You seem to be taking care of everyone's issues. At some point, shouldn't we suggest that the Government of Canada help all Canadians?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1605)[Translation]Look, right now, the important thing is to reassure the members and to offer protection to everyone. We won't start determining whether data sent abroad comes from the data breach at Desjardins or from an information leak in another organization. We want to cover and reassure our members.To answer your question, if fraud occurs in a Desjardins account, we'll cover the member concerned. As is the case with other financial institutions, in the event of attempted fraud, whether the account is a current transactions account, a credit card account or another type of account, we don't hold the members liable.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes.DenisBerthiaumeMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1605)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Cormier, Mr. Brun and Mr. Berthiaume, thank you for being here. You're welcome here. I think that you've fully understood our objective, which is to share information to restore the confidence of people who are extremely worried. You said it well. Like you, we're hearing from these people. This is all the more beneficial to us, since we've just completed a study. We've opened the door for members of the next Parliament with respect to cybersecurity in the financial sector. As such, we're particularly interested in this matter.Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'd say that, as Quebec MPs, we're not here to conduct a witch hunt. Based on the number of activities that we're involved in, we can clearly see that Desjardins is a local partner in the community. We want to work together, and I think that your recommendation today reflects that. Thank you very much. I want to touch on a few points, in the hope that you can answer some questions. I understand the constraints that you're operating under. The first thing is very simple. It seems silly, but it concerns Equifax's French services. A few people have reported difficulties with obtaining services in French. Have you worked with Equifax to ensure that your members, the vast majority of whom are French-speaking, receive service in French?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1610)[Translation]Yes. First, we wanted to proceed quickly with Equifax, and I think that was the intent of the process. The people at Equifax have been very helpful. They've even adjusted their service offer to accommodate us in several ways. We've worked very well together.Now, over time, we've learned about the limits of the French-language capacity at Equifax. As a result, we've introduced a number of additional measures. The president mentioned the four initiatives that have been implemented.First, people can go online or use their cellphones to register directly for Equifax services. We'll take care of referring them to the services, establishing the link with Equifax and providing the authentication. Second, people can obtain a French-language service by contacting our AccèsD call centres. Wait times are very reasonable. We act as a bridge, in a way, between our members and Equifax to improve the experience. We've been implementing this approach over the past few days and weeks. We believe that this approach has been successful.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1610)[Translation]It's not necessarily specific to what we want to review, and it doesn't fall within the mandate of the committee. However, you'll appreciate that I still wanted to get the facts straight. Thank you.I want to focus on regulations. We heard a bit about them from the government officials who spoke before you. Are the regulations becoming cumbersome when it comes to achieving your objectives and ensuring the security of your members' data? In your particular situation, you're subject to both Quebec and federal government regulations. Compared to traditional financial institutions and large banks, you're in a somewhat unique situation. You'll forgive me for perhaps not using the correct terminology, but I think that you understand what I mean. Can this different situation cause problems?Simply put, would it be in our interest to ensure a better alignment between the Quebec government and the federal government requirements, so that you don't need to turn left and right to comply with two different regulatory entities?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionRegulationDenisBerthiaumeBernardBrunBernardBrunBernard-BrunInterventionMr. Bernard Brun (Vice-President, Government Relations, Desjardins Group): (1610)[Translation]Thank you for your question.It's extremely relevant because we operate in a bijurisdictional system. That said, overall, Desjardins is perfectly comfortable in the current framework. Obviously, with technological exchanges, the interconnectedness within the financial system is becoming more and more apparent. In this regard, we mustn't act in isolation.Mr. Cormier pointed out earlier that we worked well together. We were able to speak with all the federal and provincial government stakeholders. We strongly encourage them to work together. We can see the collaborative efforts, but we urge the governments themselves to hold discussions.With regard to the fact that an entity such as the Desjardins Group operates on both sides, I don't see this as an issue. However, we clearly need support in this area. We can feel it and we're focusing on it. This relates to our suggestion regarding the creation of a multi-stakeholder committee with people from different governments. This will enable us to move forward and adopt effective policies that will affect everyone.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionRegulationMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1610)[Translation]Thank you.It may be more difficult to answer my next question, as the police investigation is still ongoing.Given the growing cyber security expertise, especially among people who work in that field, do you think it would be appropriate to recommend ongoing background or behaviour checks for employees who have access to sensitive information and can use the information belonging to other users, other employees?I am not saying that you have failed in that area, but everyone is starting to recognize the existence of people whose expertise is growing. Their expertise is being used, but it can also have more harmful consequences. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionBernardBrunGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1615)[Translation]My colleague can talk about our practices, and then I will complement his comments based on my perspective.MatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1615)[Translation]The first thing is that rigorous security investigations are constantly being conducted at Desjardins. Investigations are indeed related to the job level. That is an important element.Regarding the situation before us, we could wonder whether anything could have been detected. I would like to point out that internal fraud by a malicious employee is the most difficult risk to protect against. That is recognized across industry, and there are many examples of it.In addition to security investigations, security mechanisms were in place. Obviously, we are talking about a malicious employee who found a way to circumvent all the rules and used a scheme to extract data. That said, I want to reassure you that security mechanisms are in place.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1615)[Translation]With time, will we be able to go further in terms of the situation we are going through? As I was saying, in the digital age, people handle personal data not only in financial institutions, but also in all kinds of businesses. Today, when someone wants to enrol their child in daycare, they must provide their social insurance number, and that number can remain on the table for five, 10 or 15 minutes, during the enrolment process. That is the reality in Canada.I think that any business where employees handle personal information must ensure they have been screened.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English] We're going to have to leave it there. [Translation]Thank you, Mr. Dubé.Ms. Lapointe, go ahead.GuyCormierLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1615)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will share my time.Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here.I have been a member of Desjardins since around 1980. Like my colleague was saying, Desjardins is omnipresent. My riding is Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, and it includes Deux-Montagnes, Saint-Eustache, Boisbriand and Rosemère. There is a caisse Desjardins in Deux-Montagnes and one in Thérèse-De Blainville. Those are two major institutions in the region. There are two RCMs and two caisses Desjardins.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1615)[Translation]There is Mr. Bélanger.LindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1615)[Translation]Yes.You said that internal fraud is the most difficult type of fraud to detect and protect against. Earlier today, officials from the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency talked to us.How do things work internally at Desjardins? How could have supervisors detected that malicious employee? It is clear that he managed to get into the system. Are there access levels and screenshots? Does the system issue alerts when it identifies something unusual? Are your employees allowed to have their cellphone with them when they work with data?I am sure you will re-evaluate the existing measures. You talked about a lone malicious employee, but what will you do to protect yourselves against other malicious employees? What are your rules? How does it work?Business managementComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1615)[Translation]Mr. Berthiaume, can you talk about operations?LindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1615)[Translation]Yes.Regarding operations, I first want to say that no one, when they turn on their computer in the morning, has access to all the data. That is not how things work. At Desjardins, jobs are categorized according to the data required to do the work. That's the first thing.Moreover, our organization has implemented a number of internal security and control mechanisms, but we do not want to discuss those publicly, as even our employees are unaware of those mechanisms. So I cannot describe them in any great detail.Concerning this particular situation, a police investigation is under way, and that makes the issue highly sensitive. Quite frankly, we don't want to hinder the ongoing police investigation in any way.As I just said, we cannot provide details on our security mechanisms, as they are important for helping us prevent this from happening again. The situation involves a single employee, but I can tell you that our security mechanisms detect external or other elements of fraud. I want to reiterate that it is extremely difficult to completely protect against a malicious employee. Business managementComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1620)[Translation]Will you review your internal rules?Business managementComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1620)[Translation]Concerning the security measures, we are constantly evolving. In any given year, Desjardins invests $70 million in security, and data and personal information protection. We are constantly improving in order to adapt to new technologies that create new fraud possibilities. People try to create new schemes, and we are constantly evolving to be able to identify them.Business managementComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1620)[Translation]Thank you very much.I am glad you talked about the four procedures you have implemented. My parents are seniors and have no Internet. They went to their caisse Desjardins in person to get someone to assist them, and it did not work very well.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1620)[Translation]In the early days, Equifax enrolment was a challenge for us.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1620)[Translation]People without Internet access cannot sign up for it.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1620)[Translation]So we made the decision to provide a service to people without Internet access. As of today, people who want to could still obtain the alert service. That service will be taken over by Desjardins, which will be able to communicate with them afterwards. We have innovated when it comes to Equifax to find a solution for those people.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1620)[Translation]Thank you.GuyCormierFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1620)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Mr. Cormier, you and I, like Mr. Lapointe, are victims of the leak. I understand perfectly that it is difficult to fully control a malicious employee. It is virtually impossible.That said, the leak will have various repercussions on Desjardins members. For some, nothing will come of it, while others will be victims of fraud at some point in the future. My constituents have asked me why you are offering the Equifax service free of charge for five years and not for 10, 15 or 20 years.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1620)[Translation]Mr. Berthiaume, you can answer the question on the five-year period, and then we will come back to the answer from this morning. That is a question we have already been asked.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1620)[Translation]First, we wanted to respond quickly by providing five years of protection. As we were unhappy with that protection period, we decided to extend it. The president announced this morning that Desjardins was committing to provide protection for life. We did not settle for a five-year protection period. We have a partnership with Equifax to provide that protection, which is important in two ways. We are noting a strong increase in the number of Equifax enrolments, but we are not satisfied with that number. Judging from the current trend, we fear that, at the end of the day, only 20% or 25% of our members will sign up for Equifax. That still leaves people without coverage who choose not to use the alert system for their own reasons. However, we do not want to leave 75% or 80% of our members without any protection. We want to provide them with an assistance service in case something happens. That is what led to this morning's announcement. We want to go beyond the Equifax protection and provide our members with umbrella-type coverage.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionGuyCormierFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1620)[Translation]Yesterday, I experienced something while communicating with Equifax. Its website was down, and I called the company. Finally, between 45 minutes and one hour later, I could sign up.In eastern Ontario, the Desjardins Group caisses are very popular and very represented in communities. Employees are trained to help seniors who cannot go online to enrol. I am lucky to go online and to check my credit report daily, but what about my grandmother, for instance? Will someone from Desjardins let her know that there has been movement in her credit report?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1620)[Translation]Yes, that is the new solution we just launched. We will get organized to ensure that people can sign up for Equifax. Then, instead of Equifax contacting the individual by email, Desjardins will liaise between Equifax and the person. We will receive alerts and make sure they are real, and then we will contact the affected members, like your grandmother, in a way that suits them. That is what we are implementing. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88756FrancisDrouinFrancis-DrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DrouinFrancis_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francis Drouin: (1620)[Translation]Thank you.DenisBerthiaumeGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1620)[Translation]I would like to briefly point out what the key message is. The Desjardins Group quickly decided to be transparent and to provide the information on June 20. When we looked at the data of 2.7 million people, we realized that some people did not have Internet access. There were also estate accounts. Situations arose, and we saw that we had to innovate and find solutions to them. So far, for all those cases, we are collaborating well with the Equifax people. They are helping us find a different solution, including for people like your grandmother.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English] Thank you, Mr. Drouin. Mr. Motz, you have five minutes.GuyCormierGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you for being here, gentlemen.If we're to believe the information that we received, approximately 200,000 Canadians outside of Quebec have been impacted by this particular situation. Do you know about how many in each province were impacted?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[Translation]The affected members are primarily in Quebec. There are some affected members in Ontario and very few in other provinces. We are talking about people who no doubt moved to other provinces and are members of Desjardins. That is an important aspect. They are affected Desjardins members.Clients of State Farm or Patrimoine Aviso, which are our partners, are unaffected. We are talking about only caisse members who may have moved to other provinces or members of our caisses in Ontario. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]Okay.You mentioned that you purchased State Farm in 2015. You're saying that none of them are impacted.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]They are not impacted at all, no.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]In 2017 you created Aviso Wealth. That was the combination of a merged Credential Financial, Qtrade Canada and NEI Investments. Those all merged. Mr. Denis Berthiaume: That's correct.Mr. Glen Motz: Were any of those impacted?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]Those were not impacted at all outside of the scope of what we talked about— Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]What about previous Desjardins clients whose accounts were closed? Has any of their data been impacted?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]I'm not sure I— GlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]They used to be clients. Do you still store their data even though they are no longer clients? Was any of that data compromised?DenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]Let me be very, very specific here. It's strictly the members of our caisse network who are impacted. Let's say you were a member a year ago and you closed your account for whatever reason. If you do not receive a letter, you will not be impacted. There is no impact. You haven't been impacted—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English] Just to be clear, if you do not have an active account with Desjardins, you have not been impacted by this data breach. Is that what I'm hearing you say?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]If you did not receive a letter.... The key is whether you have personally received a letter. If you received a letter, it means you're a member that may be affected and we encourage you to subscribe to Equifax.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]It doesn't really answer my question. If I'm hearing you correctly, you have to have an active account with Desjardins to have been impacted by this data breach. Is that a yes or a no?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]The answer is no, because you could be a former member of Desjardins and you closed your account a year ago—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]That's what I asked previously.DenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]—but you may be affected if you receive a letter.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]I'm not worried about the letter because Canadians don't care about the letter. They want to know, if I am a current member, is it yes or no? The answer is yes. Current or former clients could be impacted.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]Yes.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]In 2018, Desjardins Ontario merged with about 11 Ontario credit unions, if I remember correctly. Would any of those potential clients be impacted by this data breach?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]We're talking about the Ontario caisses....Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1625)[English]The answer is yes. For the caisses in Ontario, merged or not merged, it's possible that there are some members of these caisses who have been impacted by the breach.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]In 2013 the Desjardins Group purchased insurance firms out west, particularly Coast Capital Insurance in B.C., First Insurance in B.C., Craig Insurance in Alberta, and Melfort Agencies and Prestige Insurance in Saskatchewan. Would any of these clients be impacted by the Desjardins data breach?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]The answer is no.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1625)[English]Could the phones of clients who use Apple Pay or Android Pay as part of their banking practices be compromised by this data breach, and are they at higher risk for any fraudulent texts that could occur as a result of this?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic handheld devicesPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1625)[English]The data that has been leaked outside includes some phone numbers and some emails. The answer to your question is yes, there may be phishing, but again, that's if they are members of a caisse, not if they're clients. If they're clients of Aviso Wealth or of former insurance operations or of life and health insurance, or they're property and casualty clients, they are not impacted.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic handheld devicesPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1630)[English]It's only the financial side.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic handheld devicesPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1630)[English]It's only caisse members.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic handheld devicesPrivacy and data protectionGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/94305GlenMotzGlen-MotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MotzGlen_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Glen Motz: (1630)[English]I'll share my time with Mr.—DenisBerthiaumeJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]You're going to have to share six seconds with him.We'll go to Mr. Graham for five minutes.GlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]I will continue somewhat along the lines of Mr. Motz's comments. Many of those who have not received a letter are worrying and wondering whether they are affected or not.Can we say to all those who have not received a letter that they are not affected?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1630)[Translation]According to the information we have, only those who receive a letter are affected.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]So if someone does not receive a letter, they are not affected. Is that right?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1630)[Translation]If they have not received a letter, they are not affected.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1630)[Translation]On June 14, we received information from the Laval police force. That information enabled our computer investigative teams to provide us with the figures of 2.7 million individuals and 173,000 businesses. We sent letters to those people.Despite everything, we are hearing people's concerns. That is why, this morning, we decided to speed up the launch of this protection program for all members, be they affected or not.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]That protection is a good thing, but in some of the towns in my riding, Laurentides—Labelle, a number of people don't have Internet access or a cellphone. They are fewer than when I first took office, but there are still some. A number of them have even lost their Desjardins branch. What can those people do?I have had an account with Equifax for several years. When something changes, I receive an email, but I must go on the website to try to figure out what it is, as it is not clear at all. So for those with an Internet connection, the Equifax-provided information is unclear, and those without a connection have nothing at all.You talked a bit about this, but could you elaborate further?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1630)[Translation]There are two things to consider. First, it is urgent to connect Canadians across the country to the Internet if we want to enter the 21st century. On our end, as some of our members are not connected to the Internet—sometimes by choice, sometimes because they have no access to it—we have proposed an additional solution in partnership with Equifax. Mr. Berthiaume can explain that.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1630)[Translation]People who don't go online and don't necessarily have an email address must still be reached. Therefore, we have set up a call centre so they can reach us by telephone. We will undertake to sign them up for the Equifax services.We have implemented an innovative solution with Equifax, which will enrol them, take care of monitoring and alerts, and then send us the results. At that point, we will contact those without Internet or email access. That is what we implemented today.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionGuyCormierDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]So Equifax, and not Desjardins, will take care of the technical aspect.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1630)[Translation]Yes. Currently, Equifax has the ability to handle alerts. As we were saying earlier, Equifax holds 70% of the Canadian market when it comes to credit bureaus and detection and alert systems. So those are the services we use for this aspect.Once again, we liaise for people who have more difficulty accessing the Internet or don't have an email address. We reassure people and, in case of alert, we contact them.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]Fine.In your statement, you talked about changing our digital identity system. What examples would you like us to follow?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupDigital identityPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1630)[Translation]Far be it from me to give you the perfect example that should be followed, because there will always be gaps in the perfect solutions that we think we have found. There will always be dishonest people who will try to get around these solutions. However, countries such as Estonia, India and even some European countries have put in place measures regarding unique identifiers or, at the very least, measures to ensure that government-issued cards, whether drivers' licences or health insurance cards, do not become ways of identifying people. The objective of these countries was to restore the primary role of these cards, which have become identification documents over time. Canada should draw inspiration from these countries.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupDigital identityPrivacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1635)[Translation]Very well.I have one last question. What did the 2.9 million Desjardins clients who were affected have in common? Do we know why they were affected and not the others?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1635)[Translation]On this subject, we have nothing conclusive. We relied on the data provided to us by the police services. We don't have conclusive data on why someone was on the list or not. We don't have that information.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1635)[Translation]Thank you.DenisBerthiaumeJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English] We'll go to Mr. Clarke.David de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]Mr. Cormier, I would just like to reiterate what my colleague said. The fundamental objective of today's meeting, for us Conservatives, is to determine what the government, its agencies and institutions could do to help you and, in turn, to help Desjardins members, which is the most important thing. They are Canadian and Quebec citizens.As you know, I have contacted the three directors of the Desjardins branches in my riding to express my support.Has Canada's Department of Employment and Social Development contacted you to obtain the list of the 2.9 million citizens? This is a very important question.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1635)[Translation]The department is in contact with us and collaborates with us. We have been talking directly with its representatives for more than two weeks now, whether it is about social insurance numbers or the situation Desjardins is in.I do not believe that the information was requested, at least not on an operational level. I don't have that information. I don't know if Mr. Brun or Mr. Berthiaume know more, but I don't think so.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]When you have the answer, could you give it to the analysts or the clerk? It would be important for us to know that. If the request has been made, could you provide a list of these Canadians? We are trying to find out what the government can do, but first it should know who it is talking about. So would you be able to send this list to the Canadian government? Unfortunately, it would still involve sending data, but the recipient would be the government.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1635)[Translation]We will have to see if this is possible. From a legal point of view, I am not sure.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]Next, I would like to know if a member of the current cabinet has contacted you since June 20.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1635)[Translation]When you talk about the current cabinet, you are talking about the cabinet....Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]I am talking about the federal cabinet. So it would be a minister.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1635)[Translation]Yes, that's right. I had a discussion with Minister Morneau on the situation. He offered me his support to see how the federal government could support Desjardins in this situation.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]Fine.In your introduction, you mentioned very humbly and respectfully that you had some questions. Personally, I would have liked to know your answers as an expert in your field. I don't remember your first question very well, but it was still interesting. You were wondering if Canada had an adequate system for social insurance numbers, for example. I would like to know your perspective on this. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1635)[Translation]The first question was whether Canada is well equipped to manage technological development, which is full of promise, but also involves new risks.Do we need to adapt our identification systems?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]I would like to have your answers on both points.GuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1635)[Translation]My two answers are simple: I think the status quo is not an option. The status quo in Canada today is not sufficient in the digital age, in the upcoming 5G era, and in the era of reflection about the world of financial services, including open financial services. On these two issues, I think we should not be satisfied with the status quo.That is why we humbly propose the creation of a committee composed of several stakeholders, including citizens, governments, businesses—not just financial institutions, but companies that process data—to reflect on these issues and see if, using examples from other countries around the world, we can continue to be leaders.As I mentioned in the beginning, I think that in artificial intelligence, Canada is taking an important leadership position in the world. At the same time, we must have the same ambition with regard to personal information and data protection. My answer revolves around these points.Artificial intelligenceComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]I have a supplementary question, which will probably be the last one. I am addressing Mr. Cormier, the citizen.You made a very important announcement this morning. You said that the protection applies to all members, whether or not they are affected by this unfortunate event. You said all they have to do is call you and you can take care of them. You will establish contacts, take action and take the necessary steps.Do you think that's exactly the kind of attitude that the government, the federal state, should have right now towards the 2.9 million Canadian citizens?Citizens are being asked to contact us, and I think it is the federal government that should contact citizens. Let's say that citizens are communicating with the federal government, shouldn't the federal government have the same approach as you and say that it takes care of everything?The representative of Employment and Social Development Canada said that, if citizens' social insurance numbers were changed, they would have to call all their former employers. That's not what you're doing. You, incredibly, say you're going to take care of everyone at the last minute.As a citizen, would you like the federal government to act in the same way towards the affected members?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1640)[Translation]As a citizen, I would say that elected officials are elected to provide a framework and adopt laws. In the current digital age, regulatory parameters must be put in place to protect citizens in this regard. That's my message, as a citizen.This is also why, despite the fact that we found this meeting premature, we still made the decision to be present. We feel that this situation is sounding the alarm and that there is an awareness and a real willingness on the part of elected officials to address this issue. We wanted to provide our point of view on this subject. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English] Thank you, Mr. Clarke.We'll go to Mr. Dubé for three minutes and then Mr. Fortin for three minutes.GuyCormierMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I have a question that is somewhat similar to what Mr. Graham was saying about Internet and telephone access. Seniors have special needs.Are we also looking at that? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSenior citizensJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1640)[Translation]That's what I was saying. Often, seniors do not necessarily have an Internet connection or an email address. We take care of them. These people can call us. We will take charge of the situation from that moment on and act as intermediaries with Equifax regarding the alert system and what these people will receive as a message.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSenior citizensMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1640)[Translation]There is an interesting article in La Presse, in today's issue, if I'm not mistaken. It talks about how credit watch agencies, companies like Equifax, are regulated and that this regulation focuses more on consumer issues.It may be too much speculation for what you are comfortable talking about today, but given the somewhat symbiotic relationship they have with financial institutions and the breach Equifax has experienced, do you think it would be relevant in the digital age to review how these agencies are regulated?This has become more important than consumer protection; they now have a responsibility to protect data. We see that there are important consequences. Should we review this in the context of all these changes you alluded to?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1640)[Translation]I told you a few minutes ago: I think the status quo is not an option. That's why we're here today. Desjardins will be very honoured to participate in the discussions, if they are held.I think we need to bring together the stakeholders who work in the data field in Canada to think about how we want to change the situation. Sometimes it could be about regulation, sometimes it could be about business processes, sometimes it could be about working together. I think the status quo is not an option.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1640)[Translation]I have one minute left. In closing, I would like to say that we are pleased to have you here. We understand that this is a difficult situation. I appreciate the fact that you understand why we have a duty to do this.Citizens are calling us. It affects them, they are worried. Our objective is not only to reassure them in this case, but also to ensure that they and other citizens who are clients of other financial institutions do not experience the same thing. You are sharing your experience, which is very useful not only today, but also for the future Parliament. We still want to put in place a roadmap in this rapidly evolving area.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1640)[Translation] That is why we accepted the invitation.MatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1640)[Translation]Your presence is very much appreciated, thank you.GuyCormierJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[Translation]Mr. Fortin, you have three minutes, please.MatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Cormier, Mr. Brun and Mr. Berthiaume, I too will begin by congratulating you. I must admit that when I arrived here this morning, I had questions and concerns, which you answered. I think that your statement this morning is very beneficial to Desjardins. I too am affected by what happened at Desjardins, and I appreciate the measures you have taken. About two or three weeks ago, the Bank of Canada established the Financial Sector Resiliency Group to address IT threats. As far as I know, Desjardins Group has not been invited to join this group. Chartered banks, among others, and systemically important banks were invited. First, can you confirm that Desjardins Group has not been invited? Then, do you consider it would be appropriate for it to participate in such a working group?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFinancial service industriesPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1640)[Translation]Mr. Brun, I know you've talked to this group. Can you give us the true story on that?RhéalFortinRivière-du-NordBernardBrunBernardBrunBernard-BrunInterventionMr. Bernard Brun: (1640)[Translation]Thank you for this very relevant question. The Bank of Canada obviously has an extremely important role to play in ensuring financial stability. Recently, it announced the creation of a committee to develop supervision and review oversight by discussing matters with all kinds of partners. Naturally, it turned to the big banks and the regulator. We have had discussions with people at the Bank of Canada and we feel that they have an opportunity to explore this. As already mentioned, the financial system is extremely interconnected. All the players in this sector have issues, regulations and regulators, but they must be able to work together, go beyond that and discuss matters. We certainly have a great interest in participating in all of this. We felt that there was an opening in this direction and we are waiting to see what form this will take. Desjardins Group is certainly a Canadian and Quebec financial institution of systemic importance. If there are discussions, we should be involved.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFinancial service industriesPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1645)[Translation]You have the support of the Bloc Québécois on this. I hope my colleagues across the way will follow up on this and propose that the Bank of Canada invite you. Presently, there are discussions on the establishment of a national identity validation system. Previously, the social insurance number was used in the relationship between the employer and employees and the government. Now we see that it is used in almost every way. It is no longer clear how to behave in this regard, but it is clear that the simple social insurance number is no longer sufficient to ensure a certain level of security for citizens.In your opinion, would an identity validation system, which would include a PIN, fingerprint or whatever, be useful in a situation like the one you have experienced?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupDigital identityPrivacy and data protectionBernardBrunGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1645)[Translation]That is why we humbly submit a recommendation to the committee today. In Canada, 30, 40 or 50 years ago, we put in place certain mechanisms, which today are no longer used for what they were created for. It is time for industry players to sit down together to rethink all of this, and try to draw inspiration from best practices around the world; this reflection, as I can see very well, has already begun.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupDigital identityPrivacy and data protectionRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English] Thank you, Monsieur Fortin. I want to thank the witnesses for their appearance here. I'm happy to note that your announcement of your package coincided with your appearance here. That's quite fortunate. There are four or five members of this committee who are uniquely vulnerable as members of your association. I'm wondering whether their unique vulnerabilities as public figures is covered by your announcement today.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionPublic office holdersGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1645)[English]All of the information, per the announcement we made this morning, of all of the people who were on the list of the members who have been affected by this leak will be taken care of by this program. With this protection program, if it's their financial activities in their accounts, if it's having access to assistance for recovery of their identity, or if there are problems with some fees they have to pay regarding the recovery of their identity, they will be allowed to go under this program.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionPublic office holdersJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]I have taken note of that, as you mentioned it earlier. However, what I'm talking about is the unique vulnerability of public officials. If that vulnerability arises, will it be addressed by this particular package?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionPublic office holdersGuyCormierGuyCormierGuyCormierGuy-CormierInterventionMr. Guy Cormier: (1645)[English] This is something that we are looking at right now in our files. Among these 2.7 million people, we are looking right now if there are some more sensitive people. You probably read about policemen, judges, people like officials. This is something that we're looking at right now. Our priority was to send the letters to make contact with the people. Now we're looking what may be other sensitivity that we should be more careful—Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionPublic office holdersJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]So in the initial thrust, not necessarily. Mr. Guy Cormier: Yes. We will look at it.The Chair: My question is that we've been doing this for awhile now and one of, if you will, the gold standards of protection is what's called “zero trust”, which was brought up by a previous witness, who said, “identify and protect critical assets. Know where your key data lives; protect it; monitor the protection, and be ready to respond.”Do you feel that Desjardins adhered to the zero trust principle that seems to be the gold standard for protection of data?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementGuyCormierDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaumeDenis-BerthiaumeInterventionMr. Denis Berthiaume: (1645)[English]When we say “zero trust”, we need to identify what we are talking about. Zero trust, we have people who have access to data. They need it to actually do their work. With zero trust, clearly we want to make sure that we have security mechanisms in place that aim at the zero trust principle. However, when you put it in practical terms, sometimes there's a difference between the theory and what you can really do practically. The objective is there to make sure that the data given to us by our customers, by our clients, is fully secure. That's our goal.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]That's the goal.With that I want to thank you again for your appearance here. We will suspend for a couple of minutes and re-empanel with the officials and finish our questioning with them. Thank you.(1650)(1650)DenisBerthiaumeJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]We're reconvened. Thank you to the officials all and sundry for your patience with us. We were in the middle of questioning and I believe it's Mr. Graham up for five minutes, please.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1650)[Translation]Thank you.Ms. Boisjoly, earlier you heard the people from Desjardins talk about the need to rethink the social insurance number system. Is research being done on the future of the social insurance number?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1650)[Translation]Thank you for your question. As you know, the social insurance number is one identifier among many. As we have already mentioned, on our website, we are advising citizens that they should only give their social insurance number in very limited circumstances. This is explained to them. We tell them not to give their social insurance numbers to organizations that cannot legally request them. However, from what we hear, citizens often give it voluntarily to organizations that are not authorized to take it.We are certainly aware of the discussions. We are still looking at what we can do to improve the protection of our systems and practices related to the social insurance number.We want to hear the recommendations or see the report that this committee will publish, as well as other reports.I can assure you that work on improving the security of our systems is ongoing. I know that Treasury Board is also very actively working on digital identity projects. We are participating in these discussions to see how we can improve the digital identity of citizens in Canada.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1655)[Translation]Among the data that was taken, we know that there was a lot of information, not just social insurance numbers. There were also addresses, phone numbers, and so on. You have spoken several times about additional information to authenticate the social insurance number. Is all this information included in the data that was taken?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1655)[Translation]The social insurance number is an identifier that provides access to federal programs and services, as well as to income and tax systems. In the case involving the federal government, with respect to benefits, for example, my colleague explained that at the Canada Revenue Agency you have to ask an additional, secret question to identify individuals, such as the amount entered on a certain line of the tax return. In the case of employment insurance, participants are given a program access code, and must give two digits of this code in order to access private information related to the employment insurance program.The social insurance number is an identifier, but it is accompanied by other questions to validate the identity of the person with whom we do business. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1655)[Translation]There are Service Canada officers in every city. If people come to their offices to find out what they need to do about the current situation, what instructions will they be given?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1655)[Translation]Thank you for your question.All our call centres, Service Canada offices and agents have received very clear instructions. Our call centres and Service Canada offices answered questions from approximately 1,500 citizens. They have informed them of the steps to take, including contacting a credit bureau, verifying their financial and banking transactions, and exercising extra vigilance with respect to the transactions they make. If they identify activities that are not related to their transactions, they should contact the police, Service Canada offices and the various institutions so that we can resolve the situation. To date, no fraud has been reported.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1655)[Translation] The leak is recent, however.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1655)[Translation]As I was saying, despite the number of leaks detected in recent years, there are about 60 cases per year requiring a change in the social insurance number.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1655)[Translation]Is there a way to indicate somewhere that the social insurance number is no longer valid and then remove the liability associated with it?If I change my social insurance number and I am still responsible for the old one, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense. Can you tell us more about this?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1655)[Translation]One of the reasons is that we do not know to whom citizens have given their social insurance number. The social insurance number should only be used as an identifier to link certain information to provide benefits. Individuals are the only ones who know to whom they have given their social insurance number and for what purpose. You can give your social insurance number for private pensions, insurance and car rentals or purchases, for example. The social insurance number should not be used to identify the person. This is a number that allows you to link certain files. We need this number to link the information. We now link the two social insurance numbers in our systems, but the first should never again be used by the individual.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English] Thank you, Mr. Graham.Mr. Clarke, for five minutes, please.EliseBoisjolyAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1700)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for waiting and staying here. Ms. Boisjoly, you are the assistant deputy minister at the Department of Employment and Social Development Canada. Did your minister instruct you to get the list? I asked the same question of Mr. Cormier. Have you received ministerial instructions to obtain the list of the 2.9 million Canadians affected by the massive data leak at Desjardins?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1700)[Translation]You raise an interesting question.The first thing to do, according to the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act, is to inform third parties. As you have heard, Desjardins has contacted us to ensure that we will provide the information and help Desjardins branches obtain as much relevant information as possible to help their members. In this case, we have given a lot of information on how to protect their members.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1700)[Translation]So there were no guidelines. In other words, you are reactive. I'm not talking about you, of course. You follow political orders, and we understand that. At the moment, everything is reactive and absolutely nothing is proactive.You said you received 1,500 requests or calls about the social insurance number. Our goal is to know how the government can help people proactively. Since you don't know which Canadians are affected, you necessarily have to wait for them to contact you. That is what is happening right now. You wait for the people affected to contact you, not the other way around. That's impossible, because you don't have the data. Mr. Cormier, from Desjardins, seemed to say that they would be ready to send this data. I know I'm asking you to give a political opinion, but you can't.I have to express something that royally disgusts the people in my riding. I went door-to-door a lot last week and the week before that. People have consistently told me that they doubt that the government can do anything. It saddened me very much. How is that possible? I would like to break the cynicism and listen to people. People contribute 50% of their income to the Canadian government. We Conservatives want the government to work for citizens, not the other way around. Mr. Cormier said that when someone calls Desjardins, they are proactive and take care of things for them.We learned something very important today. In fact, we already knew that because it had been mentioned here and there. I learned from an official like you that you can change your social insurance number. I know it's complex and that even if we change it, we still have to reach a myriad of institutions, our former employers, and so on. However, it is the government that requires that citizens have a social insurance number. It is a system that should perhaps even be called into question, and we are discussing it today, in a way.Wouldn't it be your duty to contact the 2.9 million people? The Liberal government should do this to be proactive. It knows these people. For example, at the Pizzeria D'Youville, where I worked in 2004 when I was 17, it was the boss who sent the GST to the federal government. All these things are well known. Your departments could easily link this information and change the social insurance number, perhaps not in a comprehensive way, but it should support the citizen in the very difficult task of reaching all former employers or government agencies. I really don't like this. I know it's not your fault. You have political directives from the Liberal government, but it is not proactive at the moment. I don't like it at all. What can you say about this?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1700)[Translation]In view of the multiple leaks that can occur, the goal is to ensure that citizens and the benefits due to them, whether tax refunds or other benefits, are always protected. That is why we worked very closely with Desjardins to define what measures would enable us to support it in its relations with the affected citizens.Desjardins has implemented measures. When there were leaks at the federal level, very similar measures were taken with respect to credit bureaus, because it is really the best way to protect citizens from fraud. We continue to work with Desjardins. If an exchange of information proved to be a good solution, we would consider it. However, at this stage, the measures put in place are the best that could have been taken.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Boisjoly.EliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English] Are there any questions over here? No.Mr. Dubé, for three minutes.AlupaClarkeBeauport—LimoilouMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to come back to the question I asked, namely whether you want to hold information sessions in major centres in Quebec, among others. I know that people outside Quebec are also affected, but it is in Quebec that the leak had the greatest impact. The population must be informed.I forgot what it was, but I have already received a letter in the mail regarding a change in federal policy. I would like to believe that it is possible to send letters by mail to the people of Quebec informing them of the schedule of public consultations or information sessions that will take place in the next two months. You are giving us information today and I think people are listening, of course. Nevertheless, we should make sure to reach as many people as possible. Despite the pervasiveness of social media, I am not convinced that this response is adequate.Is this something you are open to? I believe that the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency also have a role to play.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1705)[Translation]Absolutely.To be proactive, we have put additional information on our website. We have issued press releases. We used social media, as you said. We hold workshops on the social insurance number in several communities. These are workshops that are given on a regular basis and I won't see why we can't use this method as well.So, thanks for the recommendation. We will take it into consideration. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1705)[Translation]Perfect. We thank you for that because these are indeed special circumstances, and when there are natural disasters, for example, the local government—whether it is the municipalities or the Government of Quebec—always answers.As my colleagues said, and not to insult anyone, the federal government is the furthest away. In this case, there are real impacts on people's lives.Either way, if we ourselves—I'm just talking about myself right now—don't necessarily know how to navigate the social insurance number system when we are federal legislators, I don't think it's because of our own ignorance. It's just a very complex system. That's why you're here today, and that would be knowledge worth sharing.Thank you for your openness. This completes my questions. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[Translation]Fine.You have two minutes, Mr. Fortin. MatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'll start with Ms. Boisjoly.If we consider that the social insurance number was created in 1964 to govern employer-employee and government-to-government relations, we see that it is used in every way now, but in any case, much more widely than before.Wouldn't it be necessary to review the security regulations concerning its use? For example, there could be a PIN that matches the health card, fingerprints or other data, for example.In your opinion, can anything be done with this? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1705)[Translation]That is an excellent question.As I always say, it is important, when you have situations like this, to review and rethink certain things.As far as the social insurance number is concerned, as I said, it is one of several identifiers. At the federal level—and, of course, in many places— people are invited to add secret questions that only they can answer. It is not a PIN, but it is an additional way to ensure security and identify the right person. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1705)[Translation]Correct me if I'm wrong, but the social insurance number is valid, regardless of whether or not we have matching questions.I am asked for my social insurance number for a transaction, whatever it is, with a bank, or whatever. I don't have a PIN. I just have the number. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1705)[Translation]You are absolutely right. You do not have a PIN.Is this something we could consider? Maybe. What is important to say is that, to access a service, you must give other identifiers such as the line...Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1705)[Translation]It depends on the companies we request services from, but, I agree, you're right.Wouldn't a penalty be appropriate? We see that retailers or banks frequently ask for social insurance numbers, and this is not always necessary. Shouldn't there be a system of penalties for those who ask for a social insurance number when they don't need it? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1710)[Translation]That is an interesting question. I don't know if any predecessors have addressed this issue.Currently, we have a very clear list of who can do so. We have very clear instructions for citizens. When someone asks them for a social insurance number and they are not on the list of people who should ask them for it, they can seek redress with the Privacy Commissioner of Canada.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1710)[Translation]Couldn't we include criminal provisions in the act for this, whether it be a fine or some other sanction? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjolyElise-BoisjolyInterventionMs. Elise Boisjoly: (1710)[Translation]Yes, it would be something to check, but I don't have any information on that today.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersRhéalFortinRivière-du-NordRhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1710)[Translation]All right. Fine.I have one last question if you...EliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/957JohnMcKayHon.John-McKayScarborough—GuildwoodLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKayJohn_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[Translation]Unfortunately, your time is up, Mr. Fortin.[English] That ends our questioning.On behalf of the committee, I want to thank the officials not only for your initial appearance but also for your subsequent appearance and waiting for the other witnesses.We are going to suspend and then go in camera. We will take a couple of minutes to clear the room.[Proceedings continue in camera]RhéalFortinRivière-du-Nord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. James Maloney (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.)): (1600)[English]I call the meeting to order.Good afternoon, everybody. I hope everybody is doing well. I know that everybody's quite excited about today's events and the fact that this is our last official act before we can all go home.Before we get going, Minister, I want to say thank you to a number of people, starting with our clerk and our analysts.Some hon. members: Hear, hear!The Chair: We all started this journey three years ago. Richard, Shannon, T.J. and I were all original members of this committee and gang. We've come a long way since then. Speaking for myself, I know that I never would have made it this far if it weren't for the support of everybody on this side of the table. Thank you very much. I honestly can't thank you enough. You've been tremendous. There were lots of times, I will readily admit, when I wasn't sure what I was doing.A voice: We were going to point that out.The Chair: Yes, I know. Actually, sometimes you did.I also want to say thank you to all the committee members. For four years now, we've prided ourselves in having a committee in which we worked incredibly well together. We disagreed at times, but we did so respectfully. As a result, we've had a committee that other people have looked at with envy, I think, and it's something that we should all be very, very proud of. Thanks to all of you. It's been my pleasure to work with all of you. Honestly, it has. I hope to see all of you again in the fall, and I know you feel the same way too.Also, there are the other people behind us. They're the ones who really add a lot to this equation as well. Without all of you, none of us could do our jobs, so I want to thank everybody who's on the perimeter of this room.Voices: Hear, hear!The Chair: You make it all happen.An hon. member: Except for the water people.The Chair: Except for the water people. They want to make sure we get out of here quickly, David.Voices: Oh, oh!The Chair: Minister, I want to thank you. I know you've had a busy schedule for the last couple of days. We've had to move the time for this meeting a number of times, and you've been quite gracious in accommodating us and making yourself available. I believe you're in Calgary right now. We're grateful that you were able to make some time to do this. You only have an hour, we know, so I'm going to stop talking now and turn the floor over to you. Thank you for joining us, Minister.Oil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi (Minister of Natural Resources): (1605)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon, everyone.I first of all want to acknowledge something that is on everyone's mind today, which is the passing of a colleague and a friend to many. On behalf of our government and my family, I want to extend my deepest condolences to the family of Mark Warawa, my colleague, and to our colleagues from the Conservative Party and many others who have lost a friend today.I would also like to take a moment to recognize that I am speaking to you from Treaty No. 7 territory. Such acknowledgements are important, particularly when we are meeting to talk about doing resource development the right way. Our government's approach to the Trans Mountain expansion project and the start of the construction season is a great example of that—of resource development done right. Let me also begin by recognizing that I know this expansion project inspires strong opinions on both sides—for and against—and with respect to both sides of the debate, I want to assure everyone that our government took the time required to do the hard work necessary to hear all voices, to consider all evidence and to be able to follow the guidance we received from the Federal Court of Appeal last August.That included asking the National Energy Board to reconsider its recommendation, taking into account the environmental impact of project-related marine shipping. It also included relaunching phase III consultations with indigenous groups potentially impacted by the project, by doing things differently and engaging in a meaningful two-way dialogue. On that note, I would like to take a moment to sincerely thank the many indigenous communities that welcomed me into their communities for meetings over the last several months. I appreciate your openness, your honesty and your constructive ideas and sincerity of views. Honourable members, no matter where you stand on TMX, this decision is a positive step forward for all Canadians. It shows how in 2019, good projects can move forward when we do the hard work necessary to meet our duty to consult indigenous peoples and when we take concrete action to protect the environment for our kids, grandkids and future generations.When we came into office, we took immediate steps to fix the broken review system the Conservatives left behind. When the risks made it too difficult for the private sector to move forward, we stepped in to save the project. When the Federal Court of Appeal made its decision back in August of 2018, we made the choice to move forward in the right way.When we finished this process, we were able to come to the right decision to deliver for workers in our energy sector, for Albertans and for all Canadians, a decision to support a project that will create jobs, diversify markets, support clean energy and open up new avenues for indigenous economic prosperity in the process.Where do we go from here, now that the expansion has been approved? While these are still early days, we have a clear path forward for construction to begin this season and beyond. The Prime Minister laid out a lot of this on Tuesday afternoon as he announced our decision. Minister Morneau expanded on some of these details when he was in Calgary yesterday, talking about the road ahead and about launching exploratory discussions with indigenous groups interested in economic participation and about using TMX's revenues to ensure Canada is a leader in providing more energy choices.We have also heard from the Trans Mountain Corporation about both its readiness and its ambition to get started on construction. Ian Anderson, the CEO of the Trans Mountain Corporation, made this very clear yesterday.(1610) That's also what I heard when I visited with Trans Mountain Corporation workers yesterday in Edmonton. There were a number of contractors there. They are ready to proceed on the expansion of the Edmonton terminal, as well as on many of the pumping stations that are required to be built in this expansion. The message is clear. We want to get shovels in the ground this season, while continuing to do things differently in the right way. The NEB will soon issue an amended certificate of public convenience and necessity for the project. It will also ensure that TMC has met the NEB's binding pre-construction conditions. The Trans Mountain Corporation, meanwhile, will continue to advance its applications for municipal, provincial and federal permits. We stand ready to get the federal permits moving. As all of that is happening, our government continues to consult with indigenous groups, building and expanding our dialogue with indigenous groups as part of phase IV consultations by discussing the potential impacts of the regulatory process on aboriginal and treaty rights and by working with indigenous groups to implement the eight accommodation measures that were co-developed during consultations, including building marine response capacity, restoring fish and fish habitats, enhancing spill prevention, monitoring cumulative effects and conducting further land studies. We are also moving forward with the NEB's 16 recommendations for enhancing marine safety, protecting species at risk, improving how shipping is managed and boosting emergency response.What is the bottom line? There is no doubt that there are a lot of moving parts. This is a project that stretches over 1,000 kilometres, but it is moving forward in the right way, as we have already proven with our $1.5-billion oceans protection plan, our $167-million whale initiative, our additional $61.5 million to protect the southern resident killer whale, and our investment of all of the new corporate tax revenues, as well as profits earned from the sale of TMX, in the clean energy projects that will power our homes, businesses and communities for generations to come.Before making a decision, we needed to be satisfied that we had met our constitutional obligations, including our legal duty to consult with indigenous groups potentially affected by the project, upholding the honour of the Crown and addressing the issues identified by the Federal Court of Appeal last summer.We have done that. We accomplished this by doing the hard work required by the court, not by invoking sections of the Constitution that don't apply or by launching fruitless appeals, both of which would have taken longer than the process we brought in.While Conservatives were focused on making up solutions that wouldn't work, we focused on moving this process forward in the right way. We have confirmation of that, including from the Honourable Frank Iacobucci, former Supreme Court justice, who was appointed as a federal representative to provide us with oversight and direction on the revised consultation and accommodation process. I will close where I began, which is by saying that we have done the hard work necessary to move forward on TMX in the right way, proving that Canada can get good resource projects approved and that we can grow the economy and deliver our natural resources to international markets to support workers, their families and their communities, all while safeguarding the environment, investing in clean growth and advancing reconciliation with indigenous peoples.Mr. Chair, I think this is a good place to stop and invite questions. Thank you so much once again for having me here today. Aboriginal peoplesCanada's Oceans Protection PlanCanadian Energy RegulatorHonour of the CrownKiller whalesOil and gasPublic consultationRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineWhalesJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you very much, Minister. Mr. Hehr, you're going to start us off, I believe. AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsKentHehrHon.Calgary Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89111KentHehrHon.Kent-HehrCalgary CentreLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/HehrKent_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Kent Hehr (Calgary Centre, Lib.): (1615)[English]Just prior to my asking questions of the minister, I'd like to applaud the chair for his exceptional work and leadership for this committee. You've done excellent work. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!Hon. Kent Hehr: Minister, it's a thrill to have you back. I was in Calgary yesterday for Minister Morneau's presentation and his address to the Economic Club of Canada in Calgary. The excitement was present in the air, and there was a hop in the step of people in the room, which was good to see. I think it's fair to say that last year's Federal Court of Appeal decision came somewhat out of the blue. The court said—and it was clear—that we needed to do our indigenous consultation better and our environmental considerations better. I was chatting with Hannah Wilson in my office this morning, and I learned that this is happening not only here in Canada but also in the United States. In the case of Keystone XL, Enbridge Line 3 and other energy projects around the United States, the courts have been clear that this is the way things need to be done. Our government is trying to see that through, with indigenous consultation and environmental protections being at the forefront. What was done differently this time, in consideration of the court decision that we were working with?Aboriginal peoplesEnvironmental Defence CanadaOil and gasPublic consultationTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1615)[English]The process we put in place this time was quite different from what was done in past consultations.First of all, we co-developed the engagement process with input from indigenous communities. We provided proper training to our staff and we doubled the capacity of our consultation teams. They worked tirelessly to engage in a meaningful two-way dialogue. We also provided participation funding to indigenous communities so they could properly participate in the consultation process. We held more meetings and we met with indigenous communities in their communities. I personally held 45 meetings with indigenous communities and met with more than 65 leaders to listen to and engage with their concerns. I am very proud of the outcome. We are offering accommodations to indigenous communities to deal with their concerns over fish, fish habitat, protection of cultural sites and burial grounds, as well as issues related to oil spills, the health of the Salish Sea, the southern resident killer whales, underwater noise and many others. The accommodations we are offering, Mr. Chair, actually go beyond mitigating the impact of this project and will also go a long way toward resolving some of the issues and repairing some of the damage that has been done through industrial development in the Salish Sea. They will respond to many of the outstanding issues that communities have identified, related not only to this project but also to many of the other cumulative effects of the development that communities have experienced.Aboriginal peoplesEnvironmental Defence CanadaOil and gasPublic consultationTrans Mountain pipelineKentHehrHon.Calgary CentreKentHehrHon.Calgary Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89111KentHehrHon.Kent-HehrCalgary CentreLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/HehrKent_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Kent Hehr: (1615)[English]Thank you for that, Minister.The Trans Mountain Pipeline is important to Calgarians. In fact, it's in the public interest. It not only provides jobs for Albertans but also provides us an opportunity to get fair prices for our oil. None of that is possible without shovels being in the ground, so to speak. What steps must take place before that can happen? Will shovels be in the ground this construction season?Oil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1615)[English] Mr. Chair, as I said in my opening remarks, the National Energy Board will issue the certificate in the next couple of days. I was in Edmonton and had a chance to meet with workers and some of the contractors. They're ready to get down to work and they're preparing some of the work that does not require regulatory approval. The company can start mobilizing the contractors and subcontractors. They can start mobilizing their workers. They can start bidding for reconstruction work that is necessary and they can start applying for permits.As we heard from the Trans Mountain Corporation, they're planning to put shovels in the ground by September. The goal is to complete the construction by mid-2022 so that we can start flowing the oil to markets beyond the United States.It is very important, Mr. Chair, to understand that 99% of the oil we sell to the outside world goes to one customer, which is the United States. It is a very important customer for us. We need to expand our market with them, but we need to have more customers than one, because we are selling our oil at a discount and losing a lot of money. Over the last number of decades, the situation has remained the same. We want to make sure that this situation changes. That is why getting this project moving forward in the right way and starting construction is very important, not only to Alberta workers but also to all Canadians.Oil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineKentHehrHon.Calgary CentreKentHehrHon.Calgary Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89111KentHehrHon.Kent-HehrCalgary CentreLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/HehrKent_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Kent Hehr: (1620)[English]Part of the approval of the pipeline was deeply linked to meaningful consultation with indigenous peoples. Are there ways we are ensuring that indigenous peoples meaningfully benefit from Trans Mountain in terms of jobs and other opportunities?Also, I've heard some exciting things around possible equity stakes. Can you inform us about any of those conversations?Aboriginal peoplesCommunity economic developmentOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1620)[English] Yes, and a large number of indigenous communities have signed benefit agreements with the company. Those amount to close to $400 million of economic opportunities for indigenous communities. There are other communities that are still in discussions about economic benefits. As Minister Morneau stated here in Calgary, he is launching a process whereby indigenous communities can explore options to purchase the pipeline or make other financial arrangements. This is something that I have personally heard, Mr. Chair, from a large number of communities that are interested in seeking economic opportunities for their communities to benefit from resource development. We see a lot of potential in that, and Minister Morneau is going to be leading that. Ownership by indigenous communities could be 25% or 50% or even 100%.We are also providing funding for indigenous communities so that they'll be ready to participate in that process.Aboriginal peoplesCommunity economic developmentOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineKentHehrHon.Calgary CentreJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Hehr.Ms. Stubbs is next.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs (Lakeland, CPC): (1620)[English]Thank you, Chair. I too want to express that I've really enjoyed working with you and with all the members of this committee over the past four years.Thank you, Minister, for joining us in committee today in response to my request, through a motion that was supported here, to give some concrete details about the Trans Mountain expansion, which your government has approved formally for the second time now in two and a half years. I want to start with something you mentioned. The backgrounder indicated, and you have just stated as well, that the government-owned Trans Mountain Corporation is required to seek approvals from the National Energy Board for construction and continued operation. I understand there will be several hearings required by the NEB in relation to the route of the pipeline before construction can start. Can you tell us exactly what the timeline will be for those hearings?Canadian Energy RegulatorOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1620)[English] As many of us will remember, the National Energy Board imposed a number of conditions on this project. Trans Mountain Corporation, like any other private company, would have to comply with those conditions and respond to the NEB, and would need to apply for those permits. As you heard from CEO Ian Anderson, they are putting a process in place to work with the NEB to get those permits issued in an expedited way. The construction is supposed to be starting in mid-September.Canadian Energy RegulatorOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1620)[English]Thank you, Minister. Of course, the Trans Mountain expansion used to be owned by a private company, but now, of course, it's a wholly owned subsidiary of the Government of Canada, which is why I'm asking you. It's also one reason, I assume, that your government delayed by a month your decision, which was supposed to have been made by May 22. I think it would have been reasonable for Canadians to expect all of those authorizations required by the NEB, as well as permits and construction contracts, to be firmed up by the time you gave your second formal approval, after spending billions of dollars and promising that it would be built immediately.Something else that Ian Anderson said was, as you've indicated, that construction may start in September at the earliest, but that there could still be delays in the construction and completion of the pipeline caused by anti-energy activists and legal challenges. Unfortunately, those are the same risks that were posed to the project when you first approved it in 2016. Can you tell us specifically what your government's plan is to deal with multiple legal challenges that will be filed by the project's opponents and other levels of government?Legal proceedingsOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1625)[English] Mr. Chair, first of all, we have done the consultations in a way that reduces the chances of litigation. If somebody does challenge this decision in the Federal Court of Appeal, we are in a very good position to demonstrate that we have discharged our duty to consult by having extensive consultations and by keeping a record of the consultations.It's also very important, Mr. Chair, to understand that unlike Conservatives, we will not undermine the due process that needs to be followed. We will not cut corners on the regulatory steps that need to be taken by the proponent in this case in relation to the NEB. Conservatives wanted us to cut corners at every step; we refused to do that. That is why we have reached this decision.We owe it to Alberta workers. We owe it to the energy sector workers to do this.Legal proceedingsOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1625)[English] It is not the case that Conservatives have ever advocated for any steps at the NEB to be skipped. Those steps, of course, were all followed and completed when Kinder Morgan, the private sector proponent, was advancing the Trans Mountain expansion, after which you failed to provide the legal and political certainty for them to go ahead. Ian Anderson has also indicated that the court injunction remains in place, so what is your government prepared to do if foreign-funded or domestic anti-energy protestors seek to hold up construction?Militants and activistsOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1625)[English]As I said earlier, unfortunately energy sector projects such as [Technical difficulty—Editor] controversial because of the steps taken by the Stephen Harper government to polarize Canadians by not respecting Canadians' right to participate and by gutting the environmental protections that were put in place. We will do whatever we can to ensure that this project moves forward in the right way.In the case of an injunction, I understand that an injunction is in place and we expect anyone who is going to participate in any form of activity to do that within the rule of law. The rule of law will be respected, but I'm not going to speculate on something that has not happened. Our goal is to reduce the tension. Our goal is to reduce the polarization. I'm confident that the work we have done over the last seven months will allow us to demonstrate to Canadians that we followed due process and are offering accommodations that appropriately deal with the concerns of indigenous communities.Militants and activistsOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1625)[English]Part of the concern is that literally last year, one week before the Federal Court of Appeal said you failed in your indigenous consultations last time around, you said you believed that your process would hold up. Then the Prime Minister, the finance minister and the natural resources minister all promised legislation to give the legal and political certainty needed for the private sector proponent to proceed. Then you didn't deliver, and then you attacked anyone who suggested the very thing your own Prime Minister promised.Let's just look at costs quickly, since this is a really important aspect to taxpayers now that you've put them on the hook. The Parliamentary Budget Officer says that if you miss this year's construction season, it will cost taxpayers billions of dollars more and that these increases in construction costs will reduce the sale value of the pipeline and drop the value of the asset. Can you explain exactly what the cost to taxpayers will be for the construction and completion of the Trans Mountain expansion?Government expendituresOil and gasTaxpayersTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1630)[English]It is very important that we see moving forward on the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion as an investment in Alberta's economy, in the Canadian economy, in the workers of Alberta. They deserve that support. We are providing them that support because having not a single pipeline to get our resources to non-U.S. markets has hurt our potential in Canada.We—Government expendituresOil and gasTaxpayersTrans Mountain pipelineShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1630)[English]Of course, Minister, the vast majority of—AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Your time is up, Ms. Stubbs—ShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1630)[English]—product shipped through TMX will go to U.S. refineries, and the only two export pipelines have been cancelled by your government.JamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Ms. Stubbs, your time is up. Thank you.Mr. Cannings is next. ShannonStubbsLakelandRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West Kootenay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89327RichardCanningsRichard-CanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CanningsRichard_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Cannings (South Okanagan—West Kootenay, NDP): (1630)[English]Thank you, Minister, for being with us today.I'm going to pick up on that commentary about first nations consultation and accommodation. It was this aspect that caused the Federal Court of Appeal to rule against the government last year.After the announcement that you were okaying the permit, I heard an interview with Chief Lee Spahan of the Coldwater band on CBC, and I've read interviews with him in the press since then. He said that “the meaningful dialogue that was supposed to happen never happened”. This is since the court case, and in that court case, the appeal court said that “missing from Canada's consultation was any attempt to explore how Coldwater's concerns could be addressed.”. This was a band that really wanted accommodation and demanded meaningful accommodation, as the courts have said, and they're saying that it hasn't happened. I talked to Rueben George of the Tsleil-Waututh recently. They're not happy either. How confident are you that we're not going back to litigation? It seems that the hard work that needed to be done still has not been done. Aboriginal peoplesLegal proceedingsOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1630)[English] First of all, we acknowledge and appreciate the diversity of opinions on this project among indigenous communities, as among other Canadians. I have met with Chief Lee a number of times. I have met with leadership of the Tsleil-Waututh, with the former chief and with Chief Leah, who is the current chief, to talk about these issues. As far as Coldwater is concerned, our discussions with them are continuing. There are a number of options we are exploring with them to deal with their outstanding issues.Our consultation doesn't end because the approval of this project has been given. We will continue to work with them.Aboriginal peoplesLegal proceedingsOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West Kootenay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89327RichardCanningsRichard-CanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CanningsRichard_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Cannings: (1630)[English]They're saying that the questions they asked last February—February of 2018—still haven't been answered.You've just said, I think twice—both in your introductory remarks and in your responses to Ms. Stubbs—that really the only reason we need to build this pipeline.... We've gone through a heck of a lot in this country to try to get this pipeline built, and apparently the only reason is to get our product to tidewater so that we'll have access to Asia and we'll get better prices. You know this isn't true. This is just a false narrative. Nobody in the industry is saying that we're going to get better prices in Asia. The best prices for our product are in the United States, and they will be for many, many years to come. Why are we doing this? We have these price differentials that happen occasionally. They have nothing to do with the fact that the U.S. is our only customer. It's because there are temporary shutdowns of pipelines to fix leaks or because refineries are getting repairs. That seems to be the reason we have this price differential, which covers only about 20% of our oil exports. Eighty per cent of them get world prices because they're exported by companies that are vertically integrated and have their own upgraders and refineries. Why are we continuing with his false narrative that we're going to get a better price by getting oil to tidewater when that is simply not true?ExportsOil and gasPetroleumTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1630)[English]I know that this issue has been raised by the NDP before. If you talk to industry folks and to premiers in Alberta who have been advocating this project, from Premier Notley to Premier Kenney, 80% of the capacity of the expansion has already been booked by shippers for up to 20 years. That demonstrates to you that there's a demand. The existing pipeline has been full for the last number of years. There's a capacity that is required, and we believe that building this capacity will allow us to get those resources to the global market.I'm really disappointed to hear the Conservative members saying that TMX will not get our resources to global markets. I hope that the Conservative members will have discussions with Premier Kenney and will be better engaged on that file. The premier has been advocating for this project because it allows us to get a better price and expand our markets beyond the U.S.ExportsOil and gasPetroleumTrans Mountain pipelineRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West Kootenay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89327RichardCanningsRichard-CanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CanningsRichard_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Cannings: (1635)[English]I want to get one more question in before my time is up. Basically, you're admitting that we're not going to get a better price and that the reason we're building this pipeline is that it's an expansion project because the industry wants to expand its operations in the oil sands. None of the risks that caused Kinder Morgan to walk away from this project have been alleviated. B.C. is still asserting its rights to protect the environment. Many first nations are still steadfastly against it. Vancouver-Burnaby is against it. The Prime Minister has said repeatedly that the government can give the permits, but only communities can give permission. How are you going to convince them that this pipeline is in the national interest? It's a project that will fuel expansion of the oil sands and increase our carbon emissions when we're desperately trying to reduce them. This isn't about getting a better price for our oil; it's about expanding our oil production. I think this is an opportune time.... When you were considering this decision, you could have said, “Let's join the rest of the world and move toward a no-carbon future.” Building a pipeline is locking us into a future that just won't be there in 20 or 30 years, so why are we doing this?Greenhouse gasesOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1635)[English] The building of the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion does not undermine or hinder our ability to meet our Paris Agreement commitments. We are putting a price on pollution. We are phasing out coal. We are supporting investment in public transit. Every dollar earned from revenue from this project will actually be invested back into a greener and cleaner economy so that we can accelerate our transition to a clean economy.We all know that as the world transitions, there will still be a demand for oil, and our oil resources are developed in a sustainable way. The intensity of the emissions from the oil sands is continuing to decline, and we are supporting the industry to further reduce that intensity. We want to be the supplier of the energy that the world needs and at the same time use the resources and the revenue to accelerate that transition. It's a win-win situation for our economy: creating jobs at the same time as protecting our environment and dealing with the impacts of climate change. Greenhouse gasesOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you, Mr. Cannings.Mr. Whalen is next. AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsNickWhalenSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen (St. John's East, Lib.): (1635)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I also wanted to pass along some thanks to the interpreters in the booth, the technical folks and the staff who sit behind us and prepare us for these meetings. This wouldn't be able to happen without you.Minister, this is a great week for Canada. I'm really excited about the prospect of Trans Mountain. You've been a leader in our party not only on the infrastructure file, but since you've taken over this very delicate but economically vital matter of twinning of the Trans Mountain pipeline. You've been a very steady hand at the wheel.I just want to get a sense from you of how important it is not only to you personally but also to Albertans to have this significant victory in finally getting an opportunity to triple the capacity of this pipeline.AlbertaOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1635)[English]This is a very important project for our country. This is a project that is in the public interest. This is a project that will create thousands of jobs in Alberta, in British Columbia and in the Atlantic provinces. As we all know, the growth of the energy sector in Alberta has provided opportunities for many people throughout this country from the Atlantic provinces through Ontario, Quebec and the prairie provinces. When we were in Fort McMurray the last time with the Prime Minister, we met with workers from British Columbia who were working in Fort McMurray.This is about prosperity for all Canadians. It's very important for us to recognize and communicate this. This is about expanding our global markets. It's very disappointing that the Conservatives say that we don't need to expand our global markets and that we can continue to rely on the U.S. The U.S. is a very important customer for us, but we did the hard work necessary to get to this stage and we will continue to do the hard work necessary to ensure it gets to completion.AlbertaOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineNickWhalenSt. John's EastNickWhalenSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English]Thank you very much, Minister.In your opening remarks, you chastised the Conservatives for wanting to do appeals and for taking the legislative route. I must admit that I was also nervous about the path that had been chosen. You and the Minister of Finance convinced me that it was the right way and, of course, I guess now I have to admit that I was wrong on this and you were right, so congratulations on that.I also have found that some of the opposition rhetoric on this project—including at today's meeting, when the member suggested that somehow we should have begun the process of obtaining permits and entering into construction contracts prior to the completion of the process—demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how this process is meant to work. How irresponsible would it have been to prejudge the outcome or to have rushed this court-required and constitutionally required process?Constitution challengesOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1640)[English]I think it is very important that we make sure to follow the proper processes and procedures put in place for the NEB and our proponents. Whenever you undermine them, whenever you undercut them, you get into trouble and good projects get delayed.Going back to why the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion got into this situation in the first place, in 2013 and 2014, when the initial review was started, the decision was made by the Stephen Harper government to not do the review to understand the impact of marine shipping on the marine environment and to— Constitution challengesOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineNickWhalenSt. John's EastNickWhalenSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English] I'm sorry, Mr. Minister, but were all those decisions and mistakes that were highlighted in the Federal Court of Appeal decision made when the Conservatives where in power? Constitution challengesOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1640)[English]No. I think we need to take some responsibility as well. They made the mistake of not including the marine shipping and its impact on the marine environment, and we did not do a good job on the consultation. I take full responsibility for that. That's why we need to do better. We need to improve our process to ensure that good projects can move forward.Constitution challengesOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineNickWhalenSt. John's EastNickWhalenSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English]We've had a lot of difficulty until very recently on clearing exploratory drilling on the east coast, and of course we have the injunction on TMX. Bill C-69 seems to achieve the right balance and seems to push us beyond the mistakes that existed in CEAA 2012 to ensure these types of mistakes don't happen again. Are you confident that's the case?C-69, An Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1640)[English]I am a firm believer that if Bill C-69 had been in place in 2013 when this review was started, the Trans Mountain pipeline would have been completed by now and would have been in operation, delivering our resources to non-U.S. markets. It is very important, because we are fixing a broken system. As far as the exploratory oil wells in the Atlantic provinces are concerned, having a regional review done actually expedited some of that work. C-69, An Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineNickWhalenSt. John's EastNickWhalenSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English] We were very excited to see that completed in December to provide an off-ramp from exploratory drilling and massive environmental assessments on a well-by-well basis. That's a great initiative from your and Minister McKenna's departments.Another concern that's been expressed to me is that we want to make sure the Canadian building trades have access to as much of the work on the Trans Mountain expansion as possible. I know there are different thresholds and limits in other projects. How can we ensure that Canadian workers benefit as much as possible from this megaproject?Job creationOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1640)[English]When we creating jobs, we want to make sure that Canadian workers are able to benefit from that job growth. The building trades have been engaging with Minister Morneau's officials to see what role they can play. They have the expertise and the know-how, and they are workers who have been building pipelines for a long time. We want to tap into their expertise, and Minister Morneau is exploring options with them to see what role they can play in the construction of the pipeline. Job creationOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineNickWhalenSt. John's EastNickWhalenSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English]As a final very short question, there's been some scuttlebutt at the table here about whether or not a constitutional right is implicated in this process. I'm perhaps not as close to this issue as you are, but do you feel that the section 35 rights of indigenous peoples are implicated by the expansion, and was that something that we were trying to make sure we got right with Bill C-69?Aboriginal rightsC-69, An Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1645)[English]In the work we have done on the consultation of late for the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion, in the thoroughness and the meaningful two-way conversation and engagement that we had, and the assurance from Justice Iacobucci that we have corrected the defects and remedied what the Federal Court of Appeal wanted us to by engaging in meaningful two-way dialogue, I am confident that we have fully discharged our duty to consult with indigenous communities. I know some people, particularly Conservative politicians, wanted us to make consultation with indigenous communities optional in Bill C-69, which could have been devastating for energy sector projects. Then people would have taken us to court and we would have lost every time we went to court, because you cannot fail to fulfill your duty to consult and to meet the constitutional obligation for meaningful consultation with indigenous communities. Aboriginal rightsC-69, An Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineNickWhalenSt. John's EastNickWhalenSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1645)[English]I agree.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mr. Whalen.Mr. Schmale, you have five minutes.NickWhalenSt. John's EastJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88770JamieSchmaleJamie-SchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SchmaleJamie_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jamie Schmale (Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, CPC): (1645)[English]Thank you, Chair. It seems the Liberals want it both ways here. They want to criticize this process, yet they approved the pipeline a few years ago in 2016. I cannot understand how you want to have it both ways. You talk about indigenous consultation. Kinder Morgan had 51 indigenous groups that had signed benefit agreements. Because of your government's handling of this file, it went down to 42, and now you're expecting us to pat you on the back because it's at 48. I can't figure this one out.Aboriginal peoplesOil and gasPublic consultationTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1645)[English]I think it is very important, and I will encourage the honourable member to look at the Federal Court of Appeal decision. The appeal was very clear that when the decision was made to not undertake the study of tanker traffic and its impact on the marine environment, it was done completely under the Stephen Harper government. We were in a good process—Aboriginal peoplesOil and gasPublic consultationTrans Mountain pipelineJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88770JamieSchmaleJamie-SchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SchmaleJamie_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jamie Schmale: (1645)[English] We're talking about consultation. You could have used the transport report as your transportation study. You chose not to. We're talking about consultation here.Aboriginal peoplesOil and gasPublic consultationTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1645)[English]You cannot do that. You have to discharge your duty to consult, which means that you have to engage in a two-way meaningful dialogue. Relying on a transportation report is not a substitute for discharging your section 35 obligations.Aboriginal peoplesOil and gasPublic consultationTrans Mountain pipelineJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88770JamieSchmaleJamie-SchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SchmaleJamie_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jamie Schmale: (1645)[English]Now that the pipeline is owned by the Canadian taxpayer, the finance minister says that your government will sell it only once it has been built. Are Canadians on the hook for any cost overruns? According to the PBO, the cost to build the twinning is around $14 billion.Government expendituresOil and gasTaxpayersTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1645)[English]As I said earlier, through you, Mr. Chair, this is an investment in Canada. This is an investment in Canadian workers and Canada's energy sector. This is a commercially viable project. We have professionals at the Trans Mountain Corporation who will undertake further analysis and refine cost estimates now that approval has been given. They will refine construction timelines. This is a project that's going to generate close to $70 billion in revenue for Alberta oil producers. This is a project that will generate close to $45 billion of additional revenue for governments. This is a project that will generate half a billion dollars for the federal government, which we will use to transition and accelerate investments in green technologies and green products to make sure that other future generations have clean water, clean air and clean land, and to make sure that we are reducing the impact of climate change. From every angle you look at it, this is a good investment in Canada and in Canadians.Government expendituresOil and gasTaxpayersTrans Mountain pipelineJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88770JamieSchmaleJamie-SchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SchmaleJamie_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jamie Schmale: (1645)[English]It didn't have to be an investment in Canadian taxpayer dollars. It could have been private sector dollars that wouldn't cost taxpayers a cent or put them on the hook for these cost overruns that are potentially very real, considering that dozens of permits still need to be given before construction can start. How much longer will it take to get the permits? How much will it cost? This week you announced for the first time that Trans Mountain will have to purchase offsets for construction emissions. How much will that cost Canadian taxpayers? Carbon creditsOil and gasPermits and licencesTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1650)[English]As far as the offsets for the emissions are concerned, that was part of the NEB conditions that were imposed earlier on and part of the commitments the company has made. As far as permits are concerned, there is a process to get those permits issued. NEB is going to work with the Trans Mountain Corporation to issue those permits. I think it's very important that we follow due process. I know Conservatives don't respect due process. They don't respect the rule of law and they always encourage us to cut corners, and that's how you get into trouble. We will not cut corners. We want to get the construction going on this project in the right way.Carbon creditsOil and gasPermits and licencesTrans Mountain pipelineJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88770JamieSchmaleJamie-SchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SchmaleJamie_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jamie Schmale: (1650)[English]Under the Conservative government, four pipelines were built and three more were in the queue. Now none of those major companies that build pipelines are doing business in Canada. They are now doing business in other countries, but you keep going on with your line of answer. Going back to federal permits again, you didn't really give me an idea of how many more permits need to be administered and given before construction can be built. Also, will Canadian taxpayers will be on the hook for the overruns, and have you budgeted for that possibility?Government expendituresOil and gasTaxpayersTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1650)[English]Mr. Chair, for large projects such as this, there are always municipal, provincial and federal permits required, and there's a process in place to get those—Government expendituresOil and gasTaxpayersTrans Mountain pipelineJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88770JamieSchmaleJamie-SchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SchmaleJamie_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jamie Schmale: (1650)[English]Since you've had nine months since the court order was given, how come you did not instruct your department to start work on applying for these permits and getting them ready to go so that you could start construction immediately?Carbon creditsOil and gasPermits and licencesTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1650)[English]After the NEB recommended approval, it was just two months.Carbon creditsOil and gasPermits and licencesTrans Mountain pipelineJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1650)[English]Mr. Chair, what the honourable member is saying would have been devastating for this project. The member is suggesting that we should have approved permits prior to having approval—Carbon creditsOil and gasPermits and licencesTrans Mountain pipelineShannonStubbsLakelandJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88770JamieSchmaleJamie-SchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SchmaleJamie_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jamie Schmale: (1650)[English]It's in response to the NEB recommendation.Carbon creditsOil and gasPermits and licencesTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Mr. Schmale, your time is up. I'm going to let him finish.JamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1650)[English]Mr. Chair, it's very important to understand that giving approval to permits prior to the approval of the projects would have undermined administrative justice and would have undermined the due process. It is irresponsible for anyone to suggest that we not respect the process for proper approval of this project, because that is very important and it would have been devastating for energy workers.Carbon creditsOil and gasPermits and licencesTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreJamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88770JamieSchmaleJamie-SchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SchmaleJamie_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jamie Schmale: (1650)[English]That's an NEB problem.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Mr. Schmale.Ms. Damoff is next.JamieSchmaleHaliburton—Kawartha Lakes—BrockPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff (Oakville North—Burlington, Lib.): (1650)[English] Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the members of the committee for letting me join you today. Minister, I'm proud to be part of a government that takes climate change seriously and knows that pollution can no longer be free. We can't just sit back and do nothing, which is what the Conservatives are doing. We know that a price on pollution is recognized globally as the most effective way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and change behaviours. Minister, I've heard from constituents in my riding who are expressing concern over the approval of TMX and the fact that the government is building a pipeline at the same time that we declared a climate change emergency. People like Chris, a young man who's passionate about climate change and feels we need to be doing more to transition from a carbon economy, has spoken to me a number of times. I know that he was very upset about the TMX approval. I have constituents in Oakville North—Burlington who are passionate about climate change and the environment. Groups like Halton Environmental Network, the Halton Climate Collective, Citizens' Climate Lobby, Oakvillegreen and BurlingtonGreen work tirelessly in our communities to combat climate change.Minister, could you explain to these groups and to my constituents like Chris how we can justify TMX while also seriously tackling the climate change emergency that we face in Canada?Climate change and global warmingOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1650)[English]First of all, I'd like to thank the member so much for her leadership on sustainability. We've often discussed how we can provide options for people so that they can make choices that are sustainable. I want to assure Chris and I want to assure the environmental leaders and people in your constituency that building the Trans Mountain pipeline does not in any way compromise or hinder our ability to meet our Paris commitments. As a matter of fact, it will help us accelerate our investments into a clean economy, into a green economy, and allow us to meet our Paris commitments. The revenue we will generate from this project will be half a billion dollars once the construction is completed. Multiply that over the next 20 or 30 years. On top of the billions of dollars we're already investing into fighting climate change, that will allow us to do more.At the same time, we also understand that the production that is happening in the oil sector now needs to move. The best way, the safest way and the most cost-effective way to do that is through pipelines, not through railways, as railways cross so many urban centres. As I heard from many of my colleagues, they would prefer oil moving by pipelines, not rail, because rail, even though it's safe, is not as safe as pipelines, so this is a very good investment. It will allow putting a price on pollution, and it's leadership that our government is demonstrating. Investing in a thousand public transit projects throughout this country, having better fuel standards, investing in new technologies that allow emissions to go down, building RV electrical vehicle charging stations and investing millions of dollars in incentives for people to buy electric vehicles—all of those things are making a real difference and giving people choices so that they can reduce their impact on the environment.We are committed. I can tell you that I am so excited about what we are doing. With the building of this pipeline and taking action on climate change, we can grow our economy. We can create thousands of jobs for hard-working Canadians and at the same time make a real difference in the protection of the environment.Climate change and global warmingOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelinePamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonPamDamoffOakville North—Burlington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88884PamDamoffPam-DamoffOakville North—BurlingtonLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DamoffPam_lib.jpgInterventionMs. Pam Damoff: (1655)[English]Thank you, Minister. I have only about a minute left. When the previous government talked about consultation, it really just meant showing up, telling people what they were doing and then moving ahead anyway. From a number of meaningful conversations I've had with your parliamentary secretary, I know you went into communities, talked to stakeholders and indigenous communities, and took that feedback. How did those consultations result in changes to what we're doing with TMX?Aboriginal peoplesOil and gasPublic consultationTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1655)[English] I think one of the fundamental differences is how we engaged with the communities, and also how we responded to their concerns. There are more accommodations offered in this than ever was done in the past. We're actually dealing with the cumulative impacts of development. We are engaging in how we better respond to spills; how we prevent spills from happening; how we protect water, fish, fish habitat, southern resident killer whales; how we protect cultural sites and burial grounds and all of those things that have been identified by indigenous communities. Another thing that we have done differently is that we have engaged at the political level. You know, pipelines are controversial. The northern gateway was controversial. Energy east was controversial. The Trans Mountain pipeline expansion was controversial and is still controversial, but I compare the effort that we have put in and the effort that I have personally put in through the 45 meetings that I have held with indigenous communities. I compare that effort with the few meetings the Conservative ministers held with indigenous communities. For 10 years under Stephen Harper, ministers made no effort to actually meet with indigenous communities and listen to their concerns and then work with them to resolve those concerns. We have put our time in and we are very proud of the work we have done.Aboriginal peoplesOil and gasPublic consultationTrans Mountain pipelinePamDamoffOakville North—BurlingtonJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Ms. Damoff.We can go for about 10 more minutes. We're in a five-minute round. What I propose is to go four minutes, four minutes and two minutes. That way Mr. Cannings gets to finish it off. I think that's fair under the circumstances. Ms. Stubbs, you have four minutes with a hard cap.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1655)[English]Thanks, Chair. Minister, as a person who is part Ojibwa and as a person who represents nine indigenous communities in Lakeland that are all involved in oil and gas and support pipelines, I really hope that this time the indigenous consultation process implemented by your government holds up. I did want to say this: I thought the one that you guys implemented in 2016, before you approved it, would have held up too. I mean that sincerely, and I hope, for the sake of all Canadians and for the execution of the project, that this remains the case. There was of course a missed opportunity in cancelling the northern gateway and losing the opportunity to redo it.I just want to clarify what we are saying in terms of your government's mismanagement of the timelines around ensuring certainty around the permits, the contracts and the hearings, and why this is a detriment to the project. What we are talking about is that when the NEB recommendation for approval was made in April—for the second time—your cabinet was supposed to have responded on May 22, and I suggest to you that every Canadian would think it would be utter insanity to think that your cabinet was even considering rejecting the Trans Mountain expansion, given that you spent $4.5 billion on it in tax dollars last year. What we are talking about is the timeline that elapsed between the NEB's second approval of the Trans Mountain expansion and the announcement your cabinet made on Tuesday. That is when all of the details and all of the specifics should have been firmed up and certain so that the Tuesday announcement was not just literally the same announcement you made in November of 2016, after which literally nothing got done. Construction could have been able to start immediately. You could have been accountable to Canadians and taxpayers by giving the precise start date, end date, completion date, operation and cost. It's mind-boggling to me that a federally owned project with a federally owned builder, with a federal government decision, failed to secure the federal government authorizations, as well as the provincial and municipal authorizations that surely you would have known were required for construction to start. That is the certainty you must provide Canadians so that they believe you that the Trans Mountain expansion will actually be built. I think it's very clear that there never has been a concrete plan for construction to start. Oil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1700)[English]I think that—ShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1700)[English]I want to tell you I've heard from drillers in my riding that banks are revoking their loans—AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Ms. Stubbs, if he does want to answer the question, I suggest you give him an opportunity.ShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1700)[English]It wasn't a question. I was just clarifying that point.JamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1700)[English]With due respect, your understanding is completely wrong. With the utmost respect for you, MP Stubbs, what you were suggesting would have actually gotten us into trouble, because when the Federal Court made the decision in August of 2018, they quashed the decision. There was no project. We gave new approval on Tuesday to this project. Issuing any permits prior to Tuesday's decision would have been in violation of the procedures under NEB. It would have been taken to court, and we would have lost. We would have done more damage with what you were suggesting.Oil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineShannonStubbsLakelandShannonStubbsLakeland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89198ShannonStubbsShannon-StubbsLakelandConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/StubbsShannon_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Shannon Stubbs: (1700)[English] The reality is that you spent $4.5 billion tax dollars last year and promised Canadians that the expansion would be built immediately. Here we are today. You have given a second approval and you have not a single concrete detail or specific plan to assure Canadians when it will start being built, when it will be completed, when it will be in operation and what the costs will be. Oil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Ms. Stubbs. That's all of your time.Mr. Graham is next.ShannonStubbsLakelandDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (1700)[English]Thank you, Minister.Very quickly, Mr. Chair, I just want to add to the comments. This is the fifth standing committee that I have joined in this Parliament, and you have been a very easy-going chair, very easy to get along with. When things get tense, you just go zen. It's a really good skill to have. Don't lose it. Minister, when Kinder Morgan owned Trans Mountain, where did the profits go?Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1700)[English]They went to their shareholders.Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1700)[English]Where will they go now?Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1700)[English]Now, as long as government owns it, they will remain with the government, so Canadians will benefit from those profits. Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1700)[English]That money will go to the green transition, as we've talked about.Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1700)[English]That is the goal. The half billion dollars that government will earn in additional tax revenue and corporate revenue will go into a green fund to accelerate our investments into a clean and green economy. Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1700)[English]How many conditions are attached to this approval? Can you give us a sense?Canadian Energy RegulatorOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1700)[English]There are 156 conditions by the NEB, and there were 16 recommendations made by the NEB that we have adopted that allow us to deal with the cumulative impact of the project.If I may say so, I think it's very important, Mr. Chair, to note that what MP Stubbs was suggesting would actually have gotten us into trouble. Issuing permits or even talking about permits prior to the approval would have been a violation of the procedures, and they would have been challenged.We do have a plan in place to start construction, and the NEB is going to issue a certificate. They're going to put a process in place for the permits to be issued, and the construction is going to start. The preliminary work can start any time and the construction is going to start on this project in September. Canadian Energy RegulatorOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1705)[English] What kind of pressure is not having this expansion in place putting on our rail system, and is it affecting, for example, our grain shipments?Oil and gasRail transportation and railwaysTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1705)[English]Thank you so much for actually raising that question. It is very important, because if we don't build the pipeline capacity, oil going to be transported and it will be transported by rail. We have at least seen more oil being shipped by rail, putting pressure on other commodities that need to be shipped. There are not only issues around safety, but growth in other natural resource sectors such as forestry and mining is being hindered, and farmers have also identified issues with not being able to ship their products because of the lack of capacity in the rail system. Oil and gasRail transportation and railwaysTrans Mountain pipelineDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1705)[English]Thank you.We were talking about the green transition earlier. Norway, as an example, managed to put a trillion dollars into their heritage fund, and their debt-to-GDP ratio is negative 90%.Is investing our revenue and investing in the green transition good for our economy?Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1705)[English]It is, absolutely. Investing in a green economy—in wind, solar, tidal, and geothermal, all of which we are doing—supports and creates green jobs. Those allow us to actually have a better energy mix. Oil and gas will continue to be our energy mix for decades to come, but as we transition, we need to build more renewables. This investment of half a billion dollars ongoing every year will allow us to do that. Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1705)[English]Thank you very much.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Graham. Mr. Cannings, you get the last questions and you have only two minutes to do it. David de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West Kootenay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89327RichardCanningsRichard-CanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CanningsRichard_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Cannings: (1705)[English]I get the last questions of the Parliament. Okay. JamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]No pressure. RichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West Kootenay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89327RichardCanningsRichard-CanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CanningsRichard_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Cannings: (1705)[English]On Monday we passed a motion here in the House of Commons to declare that we are in a climate crisis, a climate emergency. The IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, says that we have to act immediately, right now, to tackle climate change.You talked about spending the profits of this pipeline, $500 million a year, on green initiatives. We've spent $4.5 billion buying this pipeline. That's where the profits of that pipeline went. They went to Texas when we bought that pipeline. Now we're going to spend another $10 billion building it over the next two years. That's about $15 billion we could invest right now in fighting climate change, instead of spending all that money and then waiting two years and then dribbling it out over the next 10, 20 or 30 years. We have to do this now.I just wonder what sort of economics you are using to try to spin this as a win for climate change. It's just Orwellian. Climate change and global warmingOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1705)[English] Through you, Mr. Chair, we are investing today. We are investing $28 billion in public transit over the next 10 years, and that started in 2016. Climate change and global warmingOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West Kootenay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89327RichardCanningsRichard-CanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CanningsRichard_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Cannings: (1705)[English]That has nothing to do with the pipeline.Climate change and global warmingOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1705)[English]We are investing $9 billion in green infrastructure, also starting in 2016. We have put a price on pollution that is actually reducing emissions; you have seen that in British Columbia. We are bringing in better fuel standards.I was in my province supporting a solar farm, where two-cycled capturing of energy is tested. We were in my province a couple of months ago, where we are investing in geothermal energy. If that demonstration is commercialized, it will create 50,000 jobs in Alberta. We are doing all those things. We want to accelerate that by investing this additional revenue.Climate change and global warmingOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineRichardCanningsSouth Okanagan—West KootenayJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Cannings. Minister, thank you. You get the last word.Thank you all again. Minister, I appreciate your making the effort to accommodate us today. Your schedule has been tight, to say the least. We wish you a safe journey back home. AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89163AmarjeetSohiHon.Amarjeet-SohiEdmonton Mill WoodsLiberal CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/SohiAmarjeet_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Amarjeet Sohi: (1705)[English]Alberta is my home, so I am home.JamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88748JamesMaloneyJames-MaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaloneyJames_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]You've always been very gracious in accommodating us and coming to the committee too, so thank you for that.A voice: And thank you for sparing us for tomorrow morning. The Chair: Yes, thank you for sparing us for tomorrow morning. There's ending on a high note.Thank you, everybody. We will see you when we see you. Good luck to all.Let me just say again that it's been a real honour to do this. Thank you.Some hon. members: Hear, hear!The Chair: We are adjourned.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.)): (1100)[English]Pursuant to a motion at committee and Standing Order 108(2), the committee will study the report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer on the tax gap. We have with us the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Mr. Giroux; Mr. Mahabir, Director of Policy; and Mr. Bernier, Financial Adviser and Analyst. Just for your information, we only have until about 10 minutes to 12:00. A member of Parliament, Mr. Warawa, has passed away. There's going to be a tribute in the House at 12:00, so we'll have to be there for that. My apologies for cutting it short.I believe, Mr. Giroux, you have an opening statement.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux (Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer): (1100)[English] Yes. Good morning, Mr. Chair, vice-chairs and members of the committee. I don't know if I should say “Good morning” or “Good afternoon”, but I'll stick with “Good morning”.Thank you for the invitation to appear before you today to discuss our latest report, “Preliminary Findings on International Taxation”, which was published earlier today.Today I'm joined by Mark Mahabir and Govindadeva Bernier, who will help in responding to your questions.[Translation]Our report presents PBO findings on international taxation. This report stems from the initial request of one of your colleagues in the other House, Senator Downe, in 2012. Following this request, PBO pursued its efforts to estimate the tax gap. As you may know, the tax gap is the difference between the amount of tax that would be paid if all tax obligations were fully met in all instances and the amount of tax that's actually collected by the tax administration authority.[English]Part of the tax gap can be attributed to unintentional actions, such as errors, ignorance of relevant tax rules, or inability to comply. It can also arise from intentional actions, such as tax evasion or failure to pay taxes. One part of the tax gap that is not often measured, because of the difficulty of estimating it properly, is that attributed to tax avoidance, which is legal but contravenes the objective and spirit of the law. Our report examines financial flows between corporations in other countries and those in Canada. These flows and transactions can reduce taxable income in Canada by shifting income and profits to certain jurisdictions, thus reducing the amount of taxes paid by corporations in Canada. The report provides the magnitude of financial flows and transactions involving jurisdictions that are offshore financial centres, but does not quantify the amount of taxes that could be collected if such practices of profit-shifting were no longer permitted. For example, in 2016 there was a net outflow of funds from Canada of $200 billion to offshore financial centres. Similarly, the total value of all revenue from and expenses to those same jurisdictions by Canadian corporations was $996 billion. If just a small proportion of such transfers and transactions were used to reduce taxable income in Canada, the amount of tax revenue that could be collected would be in the billions of dollars.Finally, we also examined financial metrics for large multinational corporations with operations in Canada. For example, when total earnings before taxes and revenues were attributed to Canada, based on Canada's GDP relative to the GDPs of the countries in which those multinational companies operate, the attributed revenues and earnings were higher than those reported on Canadian tax returns by those corporations. This suggests that earnings reported in Canada are not commensurate with the economic activity of those corporations in Canada.Mark, Govindadeva and I would be pleased to respond to any questions you may have regarding our preliminary findings on the international taxation report or other PBO analyses. Thank you.Corporate income taxGross domestic productOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerTax avoidanceTax evasionUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1105)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Giroux.We will go to seven-minute rounds. If we stick to our time frame, we can do rounds of seven and five minutes, and one three-minute round after that.Ms. Rudd.YvesGirouxKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71718KimRuddKim-RuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RuddKim_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kim Rudd (Northumberland—Peterborough South, Lib.): (1105)[English]Thank you for coming. I know time is tight these days. We really appreciate your coming. I have two questions. Certainly I and many of us have had the pleasure of reading a number of your reports, and your predictions are pretty accurate. The details in those reports help us make wise decisions. In your report, you talk about 2014 and the tax gap and the underground economy. The numbers tell one story.I have two questions. I wonder if you could quickly just tell us how you see the underground economy now compared with where it was 20 years ago and in 2014, and where you see the challenges that lie ahead. I'll ask that first one, and then I'll quickly come back to the second one. Thank you.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnderground economyUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1105)[English] Okay. I'll answer that first question quickly. The scope of the report today was to look at international taxation of corporations. We did not look at the underground economy now or 20 years ago. That said, based on my previous experience when I was in the public service, the underground economy is inherently very difficult to measure—people don't want to be found, obviously—but with the advent of new technologies and the shift to more electronic payments as opposed to cash transactions, one can reasonably assume that the underground economy is not necessarily more prevalent than it was 20 years ago, for that very reason. You now see more and more businesses accepting electronic transactions only, and not cash anymore. You see that among individuals as well. It's not uncommon for acquaintances and friends of ours to have only plastic in their wallets. For that reason, one would lean towards believing that the underground economy is not necessarily more prevalent, but we have not done any study on that. It's more of an intuition than based necessarily on hard evidence.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnderground economyUnpaid taxesKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71718KimRuddKim-RuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RuddKim_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kim Rudd: (1105)[English]Thank you. I think airlines, as an example, have certainly gone to plastic and no cash.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1105)[English]Yes.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71718KimRuddKim-RuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RuddKim_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kim Rudd: (1105)[English]Your office also made some projections tied to climate plans. You did confirm in your report that eight out of 10 Canadians are better off under our plan. I have two questions for you. Have you considered evaluating the Conservative pamphlet that came out yesterday? Have they asked, or are you thinking about putting some numbers to that for comparison's sake for Canadians?Climate change and global warmingCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1105)[English]We did indeed confirm in a report tabled in late April, if I'm not mistaken, that the government's plan to return the proceeds from the price on carbon would indeed benefit the vast majority of households. So 80% of households will be better off in the four provinces that are currently subject to the backstop. With respect to the climate change plan unveiled yesterday by the Conservative leader, the Leader of the Opposition, we have obviously not had time to look at it closely. If the Conservative Party asks us to cost any of the components of that plan under our new mandate to cost electoral platform commitments, we would be happy to do so.Climate change and global warmingCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71718KimRuddKim-RuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RuddKim_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kim Rudd: (1105)[English]Thank you very much. I appreciate that.YvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1105)[English]Mr. Kmiec.KimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthTomKmiecCalgary Shepard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89136TomKmiecTom-KmiecCalgary ShepardConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KmiecTom_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Tom Kmiec (Calgary Shepard, CPC): (1105)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and also for shortening the meeting so that we can give our final statements at the passing of Mark Warawa. Mr. Giroux, thank you very much for coming in. I know we've met many times before. You and your staff do great work, and I really appreciate all the effort that goes into it. In a fit of cross-party co-operation, though, I will pass my time to my NDP colleagues so they can ask questions.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1105)[English]Okay.Mr. Julian or Mr. Dusseault.TomKmiecCalgary ShepardPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault (Sherbrooke, NDP): (1105)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I first want to thank Mr. Giroux and his colleagues for their work.I know that you've been working on this issue for several years and that, even though you had other data sources, it wasn't very easy to enlist the co-operation of the Canada Revenue Agency to access the data that you used to prepare this report.My first question concerns electronic funds transfers. You addressed international electronic funds transfers and transactions between affiliates or related companies. However, from what I can see, for the European Union's black and grey list countries alone, electronic funds transfers total $628 billion.Can you give us an idea of the countries on these lists and the value of the $628 billion in electronic funds transfers between Canada and these countries and between these countries and Canada in relation to the size of the countries' GDP?Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersGross domestic productOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1110)[Translation]For these detailed questions, I'll turn to Mr. Mahabir and Mr. Bernier, who can provide a list of these countries. I'd say that the scale of the electronic funds transfers to these countries is disproportionate to the economic activity in these countries or to Canada's economic ties with them. This suggests that the transactions are more than simply economic transactions for tangible property. These transfers are probably justified by tax matters.With regard to the countries on the list, Mr. Bernier can give you some examples.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersGross domestic productOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrookeGovindadevaBernierGovindadevaBernierGovindadeva-BernierInterventionMr. Govindadeva Bernier (Financial Advisor-Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer): (1110)[Translation]Yes.Thank you for your question, Mr. Dusseault.We referred to the list established by the European Union in December 2017. The list is often updated. Countries are added, removed or moved from the black list to the grey list. Since most of our data predates the first list, we included all countries that were on the black list at some point. Although these countries have since improved some transparency practices, this wasn't necessarily the case at the time of the electronic funds transfers. At one point, up to 70 countries were on the list. I won't name them all here.In May 2019, countries such as Belize, Fiji, Marshall Islands, Samoa, Trinidad and Tobago, Vanuatu and the United States Virgin Islands were on the black list. Bermuda, Barbados and Aruba have been on the list before. We often hear these names when we talk about tax havens.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersGross domestic productOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1110)[Translation]As Mr. Giroux said, the $628 billion in electronic funds transfers to these countries or from these countries to Canada are disproportionate to the real economic activity of these countries.The same is true for offshore financial centres, which are covered in the other part of your study on electronic funds transfers. There are sink and conduit financial centres. Perhaps it isn't necessary to go into detail. Three trillion dollars pass through these offshore financial centres. We rarely say “trillion dollars” in French, but the amount is more than a few billion dollars. Can you provide a typical example of an offshore financial centre? How much money goes through these financial centres and what does this mean in terms of the country's economic activity? Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersGross domestic productOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesGovindadevaBernierYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1110)[Translation]I can put the amount in perspective: $3 trillion, or $3,000 billion, is more than Canada's GDP. These transaction or cash flows—some transactions occur more than once a year in various inflows and outflows of funds—are completely disproportionate to the economic activity of the country in question.We looked at countries such as Tonga, small islands in the Pacific with a tiny GDP. However, the value of transaction flows between Canada and Tonga is several times higher than Tonga's GDP. No economic reason or transaction in property or services can justify flows of this magnitude from Canada to Tonga or from Tonga to Canada. It's completely disproportionate, given Tonga's GDP and the transactions in tangible property or services that occur there.Clearly, this is purely for financial or tax reasons. There may be legitimate financial reasons, such as better interest rates or a more secure banking system, but I highly doubt this. I think that, aside from these legitimate reasons, few reasons justify transferring so much money to such a small country, other than tax reasons.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersGross domestic productOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrookePierre-LucDusseaultSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1115)[Translation]Exactly. This is the result of the globalization of our economy and the fact that, with the emergence of the Internet, transactions to these financial centres take milliseconds to complete. The funds then move on to other countries, which become hubs of financial flows. The funds only pass through these countries for tax or financial reasons, as you just said.The other finding—Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1115)[English] Pierre, because Tom gave you their time, there were 14 minutes between the two of you. When you want to switch off and go to Mr. Julian, do so. You're at seven minutes now. Pierre-LucDusseaultSherbrookePierre-LucDusseaultSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1115)[Translation]The other part of this study concerns transactions between companies. These tables basically show that several countries considered tax havens are among the top 10 in terms of offshore transactions with Canadian companies that have affiliates or related companies that don't deal at arm's length. The United States is in first place. This won't surprise anyone, since the United States is our closest neighbour. Canada's trade with the United States is substantial and often valid and proper. Luxembourg, a European country, is in second place. What is Luxembourg's economy or GDP? How can we justify the fact that this country ranks second in terms of the number of transactions conducted by Canadian companies abroad? Is it because Luxembourg's economy is growing? Is it because many oil wells are drilled in the country and there's an extraordinary amount of economic activity?Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersLuxembourgOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1115)[Translation] I'm not familiar with Luxembourg's oil activity, but I highly doubt it. I know that the country has had coal mines. To give you an idea of the scale, let's say that Luxembourg's population roughly aligns with the city of Gatineau's population, or with the slightly larger populations of Laval or Longueuil. The territory is quite small. While the economy is in fact booming, the population is small. Luxembourg is probably one of the richest countries in the world, per capita. However, this isn't necessarily the result of booming tangible economic activity.I suspect that many transactions to and from this country are taking place because of a well-known fact. Luxembourg is often referred to as a “country of post office boxes.” Companies have addresses that consist of an office shared by several companies or that are limited to a single post office box. This situation is very common because Luxembourg is a tax-friendly country. That's the justification.Mr. Mahabir can elaborate on this topic.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersLuxembourgOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrookeMarkMahabirMarkMahabirMark-MahabirInterventionMr. Mark Mahabir (Director of Policy, Costing, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer): (1115)[English] As Yves said, there are a lot of holding companies in Luxembourg. There are also no withholding taxes on royalty payments and dividend payments. That's one of the reasons why we're having a lot of transactions with that jurisdiction.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersLuxembourgOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1115)[Translation]The first on the list of the top 10 countries is Luxembourg, whose population is the size of the city of Gatineau, but whose reportable transactions amount to $236.7 billion. There's also Switzerland, whose reportable transactions amount to $198.4 billion, and Ireland, which some people also consider a tax haven and whose reportable transactions amount to $172.4 billion. In Barbados, the reportable transactions amount to $48.2 billion, and in Bermuda they amount to $29.7 billion. The offshore transactions of these five countries on the top 10 list amount to about $685 billion. For the most part, the economies of these countries don't necessarily justify such a large flow of transactions.Can you give us an idea of the situation in these five countries and the influence of double taxation agreements?I don't know whether you focused on this issue in your study. I want to know whether the size of the transactions between Canada and these countries can be linked to the fact that we have double taxation agreements. These agreements may encourage the offshoring of profits, which can then be repatriated to Canada at a lower tax rate.Corporate income taxDouble taxationElectronic funds transfersOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesMarkMahabirYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1120)[Translation]As part of the study, we didn't establish a causal link or correlation between the double taxation agreements with certain countries and the value of transactions reported on T106 slips in the case of transactions of related companies.At first glance, it seems surprising that the value of transactions between related companies is higher in Barbados—given the size of its economy—than in Australia, which has a developed economy and fairly close ties with Canada. There are more transactions between Barbados and Canada than between Australia and Canada. The same is true for Bermuda, where the number of transactions is similar to the number in Australia. Bermuda is probably a very beautiful place to live and buy a second home. However, its economic activity doesn't even come close to Australia's economic activity.Mr. Mahabir and Mr. Bernier may have more or, conversely, less information than I do on the relationship between tax treaties and transactions between related companies.Corporate income taxDouble taxationElectronic funds transfersOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrookeMarkMahabirMarkMahabirMark-MahabirInterventionMr. Mark Mahabir: (1120)[English]If we look at the list in table 3-5, we can see that it basically shows the revenues going into Canada from countries. On this list, there are a few jurisdictions where there is no corporate income tax, so there are revenues being earned by Canadians in jurisdictions where there is no income tax. Corporate income taxDouble taxationElectronic funds transfersOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1120)[Translation]Table 3-5 shows that Luxembourg, of all the countries in the world, has the highest revenues from non-residents. These revenues amount to $47.6 billion.Can you tell us what “revenues from non-residents” means? Are these payments made by affiliates of a Canadian company? What transactions are normally involved? Are they intellectual property payments, interest or dividends, for example?Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersLuxembourgOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesMarkMahabirGovindadevaBernierGovindadevaBernierGovindadeva-BernierInterventionMr. Govindadeva Bernier: (1120)[Translation]In Table 3-5, we measured the revenues from transactions reported in Part III of the T106 slip. We've included the appended form in the report. Part III details transactions, either in property or services. The revenues may also include interest or royalty payments in particular, or payments for management services, research and development, and so on.The first column, the revenue from non-residents column, concerns money that affiliates in Luxembourg have paid to companies in Canada. The expenditures are funds that Canadian companies have sent to companies in Luxembourg. The net revenue is the difference between the two.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersLuxembourgOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierre-LucDusseaultSherbrookeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English] We'll have to end it there.Mr. Fragiskatos.GovindadevaBernierPeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos (London North Centre, Lib.): (1120)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. If I have time left, I will be splitting it with my colleague Ms. Rudd.Thank you to everyone, particularly Mr. Giroux, for being here and for the report, which I want to reference. On page 4, it states the following about the tax gap: “Part of the tax gap can be attributed to unintentional actions, such as errors, ignorance of relevant tax rules or inability to comply.” I want to ask you about errors and also the inability to comply. When you say “errors”, what sorts of examples are we talking about? When it comes to “inability to comply”, what are some of the factors that lead to that outcome?Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1120)[English]When it comes to errors, if you've tried to understand the Income Tax Act, then you can probably quickly get what types of errors could be made. For example, if you're moving, you have moving expenses, and you may believe that some types of expenses are eligible. Conversely, you may not know that you can benefit from some types of deductions for moving expenses. I'm talking here about personal income taxes.When it comes to corporations, it's very complex what companies can deduct and the types of deductions they're allowed. When it comes to tax planning, there could be errors made in good faith, such as forgetting to report some income—Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1120)[English]I don't mean to interrupt you, but in the interest of time, what you're talking about here in terms of errors indicates to me that, really, you're talking about the complexity of the tax code—Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1125)[English]Yes, it could be.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1125)[English]—and perhaps its need for simplification.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1125)[English]There would certainly be tremendous benefits to taxpayers from simplifying the tax code, the Income Tax Act, and—Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1125)[English]What specific areas would you identify as needing simplification?Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1125)[English]I haven't looked at specific areas, but taxpayers frequently mention deductions for medical expenses, for example, when talking about personal income tax, moving expenses deductions, and the sheer number of credits and deductions. Those are confusing to people. That's why a significant portion of individuals need the assistance of tax professionals to file their income tax.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1125)[English]Okay.What explains “inability to comply”? What are some of the factors? Why “inability”?Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1125)[English]It would be the loss of receipts or supporting documents when, for example, people's homes are flooded or burned to the ground. It happens; it's not a regular occurrence, but it happens, unfortunately. That would be one example.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1125)[English]Right. Okay.As far as the tax gap is concerned, where does Canada rank vis-à-vis other democracies?Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1125)[English]It's difficult to answer that question, because relatively few countries do a comprehensive analysis of their tax gap. I don't imagine we rank worse than most countries, because of the relative strength of our institutions. It's all relative. It depends on how you measure the tax gap. Based on my experience, I would say we probably rank in the middle of the pack. That's a good question to address to the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1125)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Chair, I'll pass my remaining time to my colleague.Ms. Kim Rudd: Thank you.YvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English][Inaudible—Editor] minutes back.PeterFragiskatosLondon North CentreKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71718KimRuddKim-RuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RuddKim_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kim Rudd: (1125)[English]Oh, I got my three minutes back. Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to continue in the vein of pricing pollution. I read your report, and you state that putting a price on pollution is one of the most effective and efficient ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. What's curious to me is that the Leader of the Opposition yesterday said that in fact your report said the exact opposite—that it doesn't work. I don't want to suggest that the Leader of the Opposition is misleading people, but I wonder if you could clarify what your report said.Carbon pricingCarbon taxCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1125)[English]The report alluded to the fact that putting a price on pollution, a price that is widespread and that's paid by most if not the totality of economic actors, has a cost, but it allows sectors to make the necessary trade-offs among themselves so that for those actors for whom it is the easiest to reduce emissions, they will do so. The report also says that there are other instruments available to economic actors—individuals, corporations, governments—to reduce emissions, regulations and subsidies being the two other broad categories of instruments, but these also have a cost, albeit the cost is often not as transparent as a carbon tax or a price on carbon. That's what the report says. It also says that technological improvements can be a significant contributor to reducing greenhouse gases, but technological improvements are inherently hard to predict. If they were easy to predict, then some people would be very, very rich by investing in advance in these companies; some of them are indeed very rich and have that insight. In a nutshell, that's essentially what the report says.Carbon pricingCarbon taxCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71718KimRuddKim-RuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/RuddKim_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Kim Rudd: (1125)[English] As I read your report, I think that putting a price on pollution is, as I said, the most efficient and cost-effective way. Transparency is another word you used in your report, as you just said. The other thing your report does is to recognize that there is a transition that we go through with those technologies. It could be 20 years away. It could be 10 years away. We don't know, but the majority of Canadians are certainly better off, as you've said in your report, with the price on pollution than they were without it. Thank you very much.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Is there any further response?You still have half a minute. Mr. Poilievre, you're on.KimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): (1130)[English]Do you mind taking a question on your report with regard to the CPPIB?Canada Pension PlanCanada Pension Plan Investment BoardCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1130)[English]Not at all.Canada Pension PlanCanada Pension Plan Investment BoardCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1130)[English]All right. Recently you released a report that showed a net advantage resulting from CPPIB's decision to go to active management. Andrew Coyne wrote an interesting piece wherein he said that your report did not take into consideration the savings in management and transaction costs that come from passive management.I'll just read to you from his article: The return that matters, as any mutual fund investor knows, is not the gross return but the return net of costs: one of the reasons actively managed funds tend to underperform passively managed is because their costs are so much higher. Bizarrely, while the PBO study deducts transaction costs and management fees—which are now, respectively, 17 times and 44 times what they were under passive management—from the CPPIB’s returns, “operating expenses were assumed to be the same under either approach.”I don't know if that's the assumption you made, but that is what he reports and I do know that passively managed instruments are infinitely cheaper. You can buy a Barclays or a Vanguard ETF and pay a 0.01% fee for management, whereas if you hire a mutual fund it can be up to 2%, hundreds of times higher.First, is Mr. Coyne is right that you did use that methodology, and second, if he is, why did you do so?Administrative feesCanada Pension PlanCanada Pension Plan Investment BoardCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[English]We didn't bring you here for this subject, but are you fine with this subject, Mr. Giroux?PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1130)[English]Yes, I'm fine.We looked at operating expenses. Deciding to reduce the operating expenses under a passive strategy would have required us to make assumptions as to by how much the operating expenses would need to go down. They would not be brought down to zero because of the magnitude of funds that are managed. There would certainly need to be continuous oversight of dozens of billions of dollars, and that's why we assumed there would still be a need for operating expenses.That said, for sure one would hope that the operating expenses, under a passive strategy, would be significantly lower, but because it was not possible to determine what quantum would be appropriate, we decided to assume that operating expenses would remain roughly the same. That said, it doesn't significantly change the outcome or conclusions of the report, because the operating expenses are still a small fraction of the overall assets and of the returns. Administrative feesCanada Pension PlanCanada Pension Plan Investment BoardCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequePierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1130)[English]It depends on how you define small. Over the lifetime of an investor, if you have a one-percentage-point increase in management costs for your investments, that does subtract significantly from the final asset that emerges from your investment at the end of life. If Mr. Coyne is correct that the CPPIB's transaction costs and management fees are up 17 times and 44 times, respectively, those are absolutely astronomical increases.In fairness, the CPPIB will justify that, given the very high returns they've achieved, so I'm not making a judgment that it wasn't necessarily worth the increased management cost, but if you are going to compare the two options, there's no question that you are right to include the virtues of active investing in that they're able to get a higher return, but ought you not also include the vices of active management in achieving that return, namely, that it is much more expensive to do so? It seems to me that you did not consider the last part, because you assumed that passive management would have been just as expensive as active management, which I think we agree is not the case.Administrative feesCanada Pension PlanCanada Pension Plan Investment BoardCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1135)[English] You're right that passive management would be cheaper. The conundrum we faced was that for the funds that manage, in the case of the CPPIB, hundreds of billions of dollars, how much cheaper would it be? Even if they were to go to a purely passive investment strategy, I don't think there are currently instruments that would fit the CPPIB's volume. There would be a need for some operational expenses—Administrative feesCanada Pension PlanCanada Pension Plan Investment BoardCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1135)[English]Right.YvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1135)[English]—for the CPPIB to mimic what you were referring to, such as ETFs, for example. I don't think there are ETFs on the market that would be big enough to absorb such a high volume.Administrative feesCanada Pension PlanCanada Pension Plan Investment BoardCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1135)[English]Right.YvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1135)[English]There would still be a need for people to actively be involved and to make transactions on an almost daily basis to ensure that they do properly track the indexes they would decide to follow under a passive strategy. There would be reductions in management fees, for sure, but to what extent? That remains unclear.Administrative feesCanada Pension PlanCanada Pension Plan Investment BoardCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1135)[English]Could I ask just one last question?YvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]Okay. We're quite over time. We must—PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1135)[English]Could I just have a parting request, then?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]What's your parting request?PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1135)[English]Just that the next time, you look at this—WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]From virtues and vices to parting requests....Voices: Oh, oh!PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1135)[English]Yes, that's right. My greatest vice today is that I'm too loquacious.It's just that the next time you look at this, could PBO try to find a methodology to at least credit a passive approach for its lower management costs? For all of the complications you've just stated—and they are legitimate—notwithstanding, there must be some way, if we're going to compare the two, to give passive management credit for its lower cost of administration—both transactions and management—that it brings. My request as a parliamentarian is that the next time you do this calculation, you take that into account. Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]All right. That's up for consideration by the PBO.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1135)[English]Thank you, Chair. WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]Now we have Mr. Sorbara, and then we are coming back to Mr. Julian.Mr. Sorbara.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara (Vaughan—Woodbridge, Lib.): (1135)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I do want to start very quickly by acknowledging the passing of MP Mark Warawa. Mark and I were on the same floor in the Valour Building, and I had the chance to get to know him quite well from a number of conversations. I do wish to pass on my sincerest condolences to his family. I know that the Lord has inherited quite the angel in the last 24 hours. My condolences on Mark's passing.Going to the topic at hand, the CRA has published a set of reports. The fifth one came out this week: “Tax Gap and Compliance Results for the Federal Corporate Income Tax System”.If I could just read out the preamble in the executive summary, I think it speaks to the measures our government undertook to ensure the integrity of our tax system. It states:In April 2016, the Government of Canada committed to estimating the federal tax gap to encourage an open and transparent discussion on tax non-compliance. Understanding how and why taxpayers are non-compliant is critical to help preserve the integrity of the tax system and to protect Canada's revenue base, which supports programs and benefits delivered to Canadians.I think that little preamble, that first sentence of this last report, is very important to folks back home in my riding and across Canada to assure them that the federal government is providing CRA with all the resources it needs to do its job for integrity.I have a quick question. We heard some numbers: the before tax gap numbers, the broad ones, but then the audited ones. In your view, how important were the resources we invested in the CRA to pursue those proper audits and reduce that tax gap to be as minimal as possible?Audits and auditorsCanada Revenue AgencyCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1135)[English]I won't comment on the level or the appropriateness.... I'll let the CRA officials determine whether they have sufficient resources to pursue all the audits they should be pursuing. It's certainly the case that audits are a very important way of addressing the tax gap and narrowing it to the extent possible, because audits, first of all, uncover tax evasion. Also, and I think equally important, they provide a disincentive to engage in the behaviour in the first place. If there's a relatively high likelihood of getting caught, it's a disincentive to engaging in the behaviour in the first place.Audits and auditorsCanada Revenue AgencyCorporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1135)[English]Exactly, and if I can interject, page 9 of the CRA report shows a tax gap before audit of $9.4 to $11.4 billion for SMEs and large corporations. The “Impact of Audit” brought it down by literally three-quarters. You're still at $3.3 billion to $5.3 billion, but it gives you an indication of the magnitude when audits are performed correctly.I'm going to pivot, because there is something in the PBO report at the end, on page 20, where you say: CRA efforts to increase audits on the information reported on T106 forms could reduce the magnitude of aggressive tax planning. However, it may be time for a “fundamental rethink” on international corporate taxation to ensure income is taxed where the economic activity is taking place.Now, we do know that we've entered into a base erosion and profit shifting agreement, another multilateral instrument. Our government, in the last three years, invested a billion dollars plus into CRA, with more audit teams, in responses to KPMG and other activities that have been taking place. Could you comment on this last paragraph on page 20, before the appendix? This is your concluding statement.Canada Revenue AgencyCorporate income taxFormsInformation collectionOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxMarkMahabirMarkMahabirMark-MahabirInterventionMr. Mark Mahabir: (1140)[English] Basically what we're saying here is that the T106 forms are not a reliable source of information for data analysis. A lot of the forms are incomplete, and we had to get the CRA to clean the data for us before our analysis. As well, there are certain outliers on the forms. There are certain corporations with a lot of transactions reported on the forms in comparison to other corporations. The last sentence basically says that the level of transactions is not commensurate to the level of economic activity in Canada and in those jurisdictions where those transactions occur.Canada Revenue AgencyCorporate income taxFormsInformation collectionOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[English]You have time for a quick question.MarkMahabirFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1140)[English]Thank you for that explanation. When you say the level of transactions is not equivalent to the level of economic activity, are you measuring country A in comparison with country B in terms of the totality?Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1140)[English]We're looking at the transactions between Canada and a certain country: the flows reported to CRA and the flows with respect to electronic fund transfers with the real economic activity as measured by the GDP. We didn't look at two-way trade, but we could have looked at that. There's no commensurate link or proportionality between.... The flows of money are often disproportionate to the economic activity of countries. That's what we're saying.Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1140)[English]I take it transfer pricing would come into that and would play a big role there.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerTransfer pricingUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1140)[English]Yes.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerTransfer pricingUnpaid taxesFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1140)[English]Is there an avenue to improve the transparency on transfer pricing within the taxation system here in Canada?Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerTransfer pricingUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1140)[English]Probably, but that's a question for tax specialists themselves. We looked at numbers, and our conclusion is that the numbers speak to a high proportion of transactions that are done purely for financial planning and tax purposes. There's no tangible economic activity that supports all of these numbers.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerTransfer pricingUnpaid taxesFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1140)[English]If I can do a 10-second closing, Chair, I'm the biggest proponent of capitalism and making money and creating wealth in any jurisdiction that lifts as many boats as possible. I'm the biggest proponent of that and also someone who's against crony capitalism and new corporations using other jurisdictions to lower their tax “payables”, if I can use that word. Thank you for this work, because it does provide us answers.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[English]Okay. Thank you.Mr. Julian.FrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgePeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (New Westminster—Burnaby, NDP): (1140)[Translation] First, I would like to express my condolences to Mr. Kmiec and Mr. Poilievre and to everyone who knew Mark Warawa well. I also want to express my condolences to his widow, Diane, and to his entire family. This is really a sad day.[English]I want to commend you, Mr. Giroux, because I think this is one of the most important reports you've ever produced. Over the last four years, we haven't had a single charge from the Canada Revenue Agency on corporate tax avoidance. This is going to become a major issue, I believe, in the federal election campaign because of the fact there has simply not been any action taken against tax avoidance. At the same time, Canadians are struggling for affordable housing, for medication and to get their kids through school. The answer they're always given is that they're going to have to wait because there are other priorities, but the reality is that there are astronomical sums that seem to be getting around a taxation system, with no action being taken by the federal government.I want to start by asking you about this, just so I can understand the figures. They seem astronomical. First, we're talking about nearly a trillion dollars—$996 billion—in reportable transactions with offshore financial centres. Then there are the electronic funds transfers, where we're looking at $1.6 trillion. How much overlap is there between the reportable transactions—that nearly trillion dollars—and the $1.6 trillion? How much of that is actually an overlap? What would be the comprehensive final figure combining those two?Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersFinancial transactionsOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1145)[English]I don't think you can combine those two, because there is, as you mentioned, significant overlap. One would hope that all of the transactions between Canada and the OFC, as reported on the T106 forms, have been captured by Canadian financial institutions that have to report any transaction out of or into Canada of more than $10,000. There should be quite a bit of overlap if the system works. The amount reported on the T106, if we take it at face value that corporations have been honest and fully transparent in reporting their transactions with affiliates, is in my opinion probably the most reliable, because the EFT amounts probably include transactions from corporations and with corporations that may have little to do with affiliates. These could be pure economic transactions, but no one can be sure. Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersFinancial transactionsOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1145)[English] You don't have a precise figure to give us, and it is still likely to be in the trillions of dollars.Corporate income taxFinancial transactionsOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1145)[English]I would say that the $996 billion is probably as solid as it can be, but there for sure could be additional amounts because of the T106. Under the T106, corporations have to report only transactions over $1 million.Corporate income taxFinancial transactionsOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1145)[English]Those are astounding amounts.Next, in your conclusion you say that if we assume that 10% of the trillion dollars in reportable transactions has avoided corporate income tax in Canada, it would represent an amount of $100 billion in taxable income that should have been taxed. Then you make an estimate of the billions of dollars that is part of this massive tax chasm that exists.The assumption of 10% comes from where? Is it possible that the assumption is actually low and that, potentially, the percentage of those transactions avoiding corporate income taxes in Canada is much higher than 10%?Corporate income taxFinancial transactionsOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1145)[English]The assumption is just for illustrative purposes because we don't know for sure what the real number is. It could be 10%, it could be 5% or it could be 15%. I don't think it's much higher than that, but it could be more or it could be less. We don't know for sure and that's why we said, for example, that if it were 10%, this is how much it would mean in lost revenues. However, we have no way of knowing for sure, aside from having to do very thorough audits of all of these transactions, which would require immense resources. I don't think there is enough capacity in this country to undertake that many audits involving these huge amounts.Corporate income taxFinancial transactionsOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1145)[English]Okay, but—YvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]We are out of time, Mr. Julian. PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1145)[English]Could I have a final, quick question?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]Make it very quick.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1145)[English]What resources would you need to really get to the bottom of this?Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1145)[English]I'm not sure it's a question of resources as much as it is a question of reliable and accurate data, which I'm not sure exists anywhere. It involves offshore financial centres, which by definition are not very co-operative when it comes to revealing the dealings that their institutions have with Canadian corporations or Canadian residents. I think it's a matter of trying to get the appropriate data. A parallel that I sometimes make is trying to estimate the amounts that the Mafia makes. It's very difficult. You can try to estimate but you cannot get reliable estimates.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]Okay. We'll go over to Mr. Sorbara.I do want to point this out, Mr. Julian. I know you're not regularly at this committee, but it might be useful for you to go back to the minister's testimony to this committee. You stated that the government has not done anything on corporate tax avoidance. That is, quite bluntly, not true.YvesGirouxPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1150)[English]There were no charges.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Over $1 million has been spent on tax avoidance, and tax recovery has increased.We can't leave that on the record that way.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1150)[English]No charges....WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Mr. Sorbara.PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1150)[English]Mr. Giroux, I know you used the word “Mafia”. I would like that term to be struck. I'd like to use the word “organized crime”, please.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGirouxYvesGirouxYves-GirouxInterventionMr. Yves Giroux: (1150)[English]Sure. You have my apologies.FrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeFrancescoSorbaraVaughan—Woodbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88999FrancescoSorbaraFrancesco-SorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SorbaraFrancesco_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Francesco Sorbara: (1150)[English]Thank you. Don't apologize. I just want to put that on the record to make sure, because there's one connotation with one and another connotation with another. As my brother is a first responder in the Vancouver Police Department who heads and battles that type of activity, it's personal—very much so.To Mr. Julian's comment, on May 30, 2019, the CRA minister announced the updated results for CRA's audits in the real estate sector. Since 2015, CRA audits have identified over $1 billion in additional gross taxes related to the real estate sector. During the same period, auditors reviewed nearly 42,000 files in Ontario and B.C., resulting in over $100 million in assessed penalties.Our government, over the last three and a half years, has invested wisely in the CRA after the prior government made a number of cuts to services across the board in the federal government. With that, we are producing results for the taxpayers of Canada.Thank you.Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]I said we'd adjourn at 10 minutes to 12, and we're going to. We have to be up in the House. We cannot be late.I want to thank—FrancescoSorbaraVaughan—WoodbridgePierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1150)[English]Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English] I said we'd adjourn at 10 minutes to 12, Pierre. I have to.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1150)[English]Point of order.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]You may have to challenge the chair on this, because I'm not accepting the point of order.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1150)[English]Point of order, Mr. Chair.Some hon. members: [Inaudible—Editor]WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]We have to adjourn at 10 to 12.Some hon. members: [Inaudible—Editor]The Chair: I want to thank you for coming today, Mr. Giroux, and your people for doing the work they do.PierrePoilievreHon.CarletonPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25524PierrePoilievreHon.Pierre-PoilievreCarletonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PoilievrePierre_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Pierre Poilievre: (1150)[English]You guys are really disgusting—WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]The meeting is adjourned.PierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, Lib.)): (1530)[English] I call the meeting to order.Ladies and gentlemen, this is meeting 154 of the Standing Committee on Health and our last meeting for this Parliament.We have a jammed schedule here today. Actually, we have a vote. We understand the bells will ring at 5:30. I'm seeking unanimous consent to go to 5:45.Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Thank you very much. We'll go to 5:45.Our first witness is Commissioner Brenda Lucki, commissioner of the RCMP. We have her here for half an hour.Thanks very much for coming on short notice. We appreciate it very much.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommissioner Brenda Lucki (Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): (1530)[English] Thanks.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[English]It's a short round so we're going to have one question from each party. We're going to start with....Sorry, Ms. Lucki, you have an opening statement of 10 minutes. Go ahead.BrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1530)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of this committee.Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for inviting me here to speak today.I want to start by saying the RCMP takes all reported allegations of criminal activity and incidents very seriously and we are committed to continuing to provide services that are focused on the safety of our communities.[Translation]Such allegations could include the forced or coerced sterilization of women.[English]Following a consultation of the RCMP's contract divisions through their respective commanding officers, to date, we have no allegations on file for forced sterilization that were found to be reported to the RCMP directly. I've also taken the steps to reach out to the president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police for assistance in raising the awareness among all the other police agencies. A bulletin was disseminated by the CACP to its member agencies and a report is expected in the near future. There are quite a few of them so they're still waiting for results.It's important to note that the investigation of any allegations of forced or coerced sterilization would fall under the mandate of the police of jurisdiction. Therefore, any evidence of criminal activity should be reported to the local police of jurisdiction where offences are alleged to have taken place so that they can be properly investigated.[Translation]The RCMP proactively works with communities to identify, prioritize and solve problems, as well as to build trust and faith in the RCMP as a police service.[English]This collaborative approach is based on the philosophy that prevention is a core responsibility of policing, where decisions are evidence-based and responses should be community-led, police-supported, sustainable and flexible. The RCMP has been part of these efforts in many communities across Canada and will continue to reach out with professionalism and compassion to enhance trust with the communities we serve.I have to add that compassion is one of our core values, but honestly, as part of our modernization, I don't think compassion is good enough. I think we need to bump it up to empathy. It falls in line not just with reconciliation but.... If we can all learn—when I say “we” I'm talking about my organization—to walk a mile in somebody's shoes, I think we would have a better understanding of others' circumstances and they would be treated differently if we had that understanding. Part of this is teaching people from the day they get into the organization and reteaching everybody along the way. In some effects, we've introduced at the training academy, for example, the Kairos blanket exercise, which is one way of teaching more empathy and more history.In addition to contributing to a safer and healthier indigenous community, it's one of the key priorities of the RCMP. Protecting all Canadians from criminal activity is of the utmost importance. We're committed to protecting our communities and to achieving reconciliation with indigenous communities and partners through a renewed relationship built on the recognition of rights, respect, mutual trust, co-operation and partnership.[Translation]I would be happy to answer your questions.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[English]Thank you very much.That's the shortest 10-minute opening statement we've ever had.We'll go right to our questions with Mr. Ouellette.You have seven minutes.BrendaLuckiRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette (Winnipeg Centre, Lib.): (1530)[English]Thank you very much, Commissioner, for coming here today. I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to question you on these very serious allegations concerning forced sterilization of women, especially indigenous women, in Canada.Obviously, you said that no complaint has ever been made to the RCMP.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1535)[English] Perhaps I should be more specific. When we go back into our records, we can go back only so far. Certain things are purged along the way, according to our archived records management system, so the looking back is looking at anything in the electronic world. We tried various keywords in that system to try to find anything that we could, but we didn't find anything.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1535)[English]Is there a statute of limitations on the sterilization of women? If someone came forward and said they had a complaint, would you be able to say, “That happened 20 years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago”, or another number, and say, “We can't investigate”?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthStatute of limitationsWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1535)[English]It depends on the circumstances, of course. We don't have, in the Criminal Code, anything that deals directly with forced sterilization. The law that we use is aggravated assault, or there are other kinds of criminality, depending on what the victim brings forward in their statement or the review of the events. For an aggravated assault, no, there isn't a statute.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthStatute of limitationsWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1535)[English]Obviously this has been in the media for a number of years now. It's been out there. If the allegations that are being debated in society are false, I believe that deserves to be investigated. If those allegations are true, that deserves to be investigated. One, if they're false, obviously it's in the media. This undermines and destroys people's reputations: doctors, nurses and social workers. If it's true, these are very serious allegations.If at one point someone has already raised it in the media, at what point would the RCMP, our national police force, start investigating? What would be the trigger, the moment you would say that this is something serious enough for us to take a deep look at and send an investigator to have a conversation, at least, with a lawyer?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1535)[English]It's difficult to answer that question. When it was brought to my attention as the commissioner, of course we did all the searches and we also reviewed the report from the Saskatoon regional health authority.There's more work to be done, though. I notice that at one point—I think it was in some of the minutes—there was mention of several victims, with names of defendants. That has never come to our attention, so we have to go looking for that. Of course, we might deal with privacy issues when we deal with health care, getting information through the health care system. Of course, it's encouraging people to come forward. For anything, a crime against a person, the rules always seem to be a bit more difficult in the sense that it's a very personal type of crime. It's not so easy for people to want to come forward, but we definitely need to look into it to see if we can get names of victims and see their willingness.I noticed, in the minutes that I looked through, I think it was Ms. Francyne Joe who talked about informed choice. Informed choice also works with victims of crime, in the sense that not everybody wants to come forward when it comes to such a personalized crime. That's why it's probably been unreported. I'll be honest. There's also—and it's mentioned again in the report—the trust level with police and coming forward for such a personalized crime. Some people might not even realize that they thought it was a crime, depending on the circumstances in how that situation evolved. Now we have to look at it and say, “Okay, is there a list of victims we can talk to, reach out to, to see if they want to come forward to give statements?”Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1535)[English]What is the level of trust right now between indigenous peoples and the RCMP in Canada? Have you been keeping statistics on that and understanding surveys about that? Obviously that's a very important consideration. If someone's not willing to make a complaint, why are they not willing?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1535)[English]I think it varies and it varies in all agencies. That's the reason we have a big focus on reconciliation. Of course, there are various reports that have come out. We always look at things that we can do better. It depends on the community. If you go to certain communities, trust levels are a lot higher, and in other communities, not so much. I guess it depends on the personal experiences of the people in those communities.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1540)[English]You obviously are trying to build a relationship with indigenous communities, but the history of the RCMP was one also of suppression of indigenous peoples.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]Yes, in the early days it was also protection.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1540)[English] That's a point of view.Genocide is one of the things that has come up in the last little bit and this is a very serious accusation. Obviously you have a very important role in the maintenance of law and order and the protection of human rights.Do you believe the RCMP should be taking more of an active role in investigating and ensuring that if crimes have been committed against women in this country, they are afforded the full protection of the state against those who continue to perpetrate those crimes?We even heard from a witness that these crimes are still ongoing, or at least there are allegations that they are still ongoing. Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]Any crime against any person needs to be investigated. Whenever we get complaints, we take it to the full extent, even if we are looking at third party complaints for certain crimes with domestic violence and crimes against the person, because it's not so easy for people to come forward. Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1540)[English]If someone who is a third party made a complaint, would you accept that as a way of moving an investigation forward?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]In terms of moving the investigation forward, where it goes from there is dependent on the willingness— Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1540)[English]For instance, if this committee asked you to investigate this in a more in-depth way, would you then start investigating or would we wait for someone else to come forward?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]We are starting to look into trying to get, for instance, names of victims, because obviously there are names of victims in the civil proceedings.Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1540)[English]Yes.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]In a letter that I received from MP Davies, I noticed that he made mention of names of victims and defendants. With privacy issues, I'm not sure whether we're even allowed to have those lists, but of course, if we were allowed to have them, that would definitely be a starting point.Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1540)[English]Thank you very much. BrendaLuckiBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Thank you.Now we'll go to Ms. Gladu. Robert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu (Sarnia—Lambton, CPC): (1540)[English]Mr. Chair, thank you very much, and thank you, Commissioner, for coming today.First of all, in your mind, with the definitions that we have today, is it illegal for somebody to perform a forced sterilization upon someone who has given consent during labour?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]The only law we have to rely on is aggravated assault. With aggravated assault, the Criminal Code says, “Every one commits an aggravated assault who wounds, maims, disfigures or endangers the life of the complainant.” Each situation would depend on the circumstances.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1540)[English]Okay.Do you think it would be helpful to introduce a law that specifically called out forced sterilization and gave a definition of what is “informed consent”?Civil and human rightsCriminalizationReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]On the way here, I honestly thought about whether I even had an opinion about that. I'm not sure I do. I just think, right now, with the RCMP, we work within the laws of the Criminal Code that we have.Civil and human rightsCriminalizationReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1540)[English]Okay.We heard testimony that there may be as many as a thousand or more Canadian women who have experienced forced sterilization. Is it your view that it would be the responsibility of local police to investigate those instances, and where we don't have local police and the RCMP is serving that function, it would then be the RCMP's responsibility?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]It's not a question of local police or RCMP. It's a question of police of jurisdiction. It's always where the event took place. If an event took place in, for instance, as we have spoken about, a Saskatoon hospital, the Saskatoon city police would be the police of jurisdiction. If it took place outside of Saskatoon and not in Regina, anywhere else in Saskatchewan, it would be the RCMP. Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1540)[English]I'm sure that when you heard you were coming to the committee, you looked into the situation. You said there weren't any cases. Was there other information that you uncovered, and would you have recommendations for the committee on what we should do to try to prevent this from happening to other women?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1540)[English]We actually looked into it a few months ago when I received a letter from MP Don Davies. We solicited the assistance of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police as well. Definitely, as I said, we went back and we don't have any cases that came forward that weren't investigated. There were none that came forward in our system, so it's about getting the victims to come forward.I am feeling confident because, if the victims have come forward civilly, maybe there is a potential that they want to come forward criminally. However, everybody has to make an informed choice. Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1545)[English]Thank you.BrendaLuckiBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Okay.Mr. Davies. MarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP): (1545)[English]Thank you, Chair.Commissioner, thank you for being here. As a state party to the UN convention against torture, Canada's record on preventing and addressing torture and other forms of treatment is periodically reviewed by the UN Committee Against Torture. Canada's most recent review took place last November in Geneva, and in its final report, the committee officially recognized that the “extensive forced or coerced sterilization of indigenous women” in Canada is a form of torture. The UN committee provided Canada with a number of recommendations, including that the Government of Canada ensure that all allegations of forced or coerced sterilization are impartially investigated. In your view, which institution in Canada should bear primary responsibility for ensuring that all allegations of forced sterilization are impartially investigated in Canada?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English] I would have to go back to the place of jurisdiction where the event took place, because that's the way the law works.Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]Do you have reason to believe that some of these forced sterilizations could have taken place in areas of jurisdiction under which the RCMP had control?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English]Possibly, yes.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]Okay. As you pointed out, I wrote to you back in February and pointed out to you that a class action lawsuit had been filed, at that time naming some 60 women as complainants and naming the federal government, regional health authorities and individual physicians over incidents of forced or coerced sterilization. I understand that class action has since gone to over 100 women. With that information, you have a potential source of named victims and a potential source of named defendants. Presumably with a source gathering when and what happened, would that not constitute some evidence that would give you a basis for contacting those people and commencing an investigation starting there?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English]We would have to get the source and get the names, and so far we're following up on that. We're not sure how successful we'll be, because in health, if you've ever dealt with health, it's very hard to get names or anything under privacy, so unless—Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]Could you get a warrant?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English]It would depend on the circumstances, but normally when we go for a warrant it's very specific information. It's not like a blanket kind of exercise where we ask for “any or all names related to”, but I'd have to look into that further.Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]Fair enough.Commissioner Lucki, is it your position that the RCMP does not have the authority to proactively investigate suspected criminal activity in the absence of a complaint?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English]Normally we always work off a complaint of some form, whether it's a suspicion of a complaint. We're following a name, a victim, a defendant, and going from that trail, but without the names and respecting privacy, because there may be some victims who may want to go civilly but would not want to go through anything criminally....Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]That could come up through the investigation. This is where I have trouble. If we went outside today and came across a vehicle with its engine running and a broken windshield, and there was blood all over the seats and trailing away from the scene, would you say that there was nothing to investigate until a complaint was received?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English]No.Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]There is potential evidence of some sort of foul play. Isn't that correct?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English]But that's right in front of us. It's right there, as opposed to most of this historic.... When I say “historic”, 2018 isn't historic, but I would say that it's something that has already occurred. It's not in the process of occurring. It's a different set of circumstances. Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]Then let me be more focused on this. I'm going to operate from the assumption that, as former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould said, she was content that the current Criminal Code is sufficient to cover this and that performing a surgical procedure on someone against their will or without their consent does constitute a crime. In fact, that was the reason the government gave to the UN Committee Against Torture for why it won't change the Criminal Code to have a specific crime for it.I'm operating from the assumption that if you operate on someone without their consent, you're committing the crime of aggravated assault as it currently is, so when we know that there are dozens and dozens of women who have said that this has occurred, and we know when it occurred, where it occurred and in some cases who did it, I'm puzzled by why the RCMP would say, “We're just going to sit back and not do anything, even though there seems to be potential evidence of a crime, until someone comes forward.” We would never investigate the Mafia if that were the case.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English]We're not really saying that we're sitting back and doing nothing. We're following up to try to get some of the names or all of the names of potential victims and potential defendants so that we can follow up and have a trail to follow up.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]Have you contacted the lawyer for the defendants?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1545)[English]Not to my knowledge, but I know they've have done some work on.... I'm not sure who they've contacted, but I don't think so.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1545)[English]Have you checked with the records filed in the courthouse for the class action?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1550)[English]I know that there is a whole bunch of people following up on things. I don't have the specifics, but I know they're trying to follow the trail to see if we can get names and also they are working with the other police agencies to see what they have.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1550)[English] Okay.Now, if a survivor of forced sterilization had previously come forward to the RCMP but was then referred to a medical regulatory authority, would such an interaction be recorded as a complaint, or in any way, with your records?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1550)[English]It should be recorded as at least a contact, but depending on when it was, it may not show up in our records. It could have been already disposed of if it was far in the past.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1550)[English]Okay. I'm going to repeat a question that Ms. Gladu asked you. I know you've answered it, but I want to push it a bit.In terms of a Criminal Code amendment that made performing a surgical procedure on someone without their consent or against their will a specific Criminal Code offence, would you find that helpful in giving the officers under your command greater guidance and maybe a potential source of investigation, or do you feel that the Criminal Code is fine the way it is right now?Civil and human rightsCriminalizationReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1550)[English]I just think that we enforce the applicable laws in accordance with the specific circumstances—the laws that are there. I think the Department of Justice would be in a better position to respond to such a question.Civil and human rightsCriminalizationReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1550)[English]For my last question, I'm going to go back to the complaint thing. If it came to the police's attention that there was, say, a child who was being sexually abused in a household and you had some sort of information that it might have occurred but no complaint had come forward, would you wait until a complaint was filed before you did anything?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1550)[English]No, but if they said, for instance, that something happened in Canada, which is right now what we have, or it happened in a town, unless we get more information to narrow down who that child is, we would follow up as far as we could follow up and try to figure out who that was.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1550)[English]In this case—BrendaLuckiBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]No, you're done.DonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1550)[English]I'm sorry.BillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thanks very much.Now we're going to go back to that side. Is there anyone...? I know that Mr. Ouellette wants a question.Mr. McKinnon, go ahead, please.DonDaviesVancouver KingswayRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59293RonMcKinnonRon-McKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKinnonRon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ron McKinnon (Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, Lib.): (1550)[English]Thank you, Chair.We've heard that it's sometimes difficult for women to approach police to lodge a complaint or to register that an incident has occurred. I'm wondering if there are alternatives to that. It comes to mind that information can be sworn to a justice of the peace, I believe, to initiate a criminal action. Is that correct?Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1550)[English]Yes, I believe.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59293RonMcKinnonRon-McKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKinnonRon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ron McKinnon: (1550)[English]People could approach a justice of the peace and say, “This has been going on and I'd like to lodge a complaint.” That would be passed on to the appropriate police of jurisdiction.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1550)[English]They couldn't necessarily lay a charge. They could bring the information forward, but we'd still have to investigate it before anything further criminally could happen. We could encourage them also.... We do have victim services units that we use to make victims more at ease. We are doing a lot of extra training now, trauma centre-type of training, in the RCMP. We have a bunch of different courses, because we need to be, and we want to be, that police agency that not only do people feel comfortable with and trust us, but when they do come forward, we treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve as a victim.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59293RonMcKinnonRon-McKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKinnonRon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ron McKinnon: (1550)[English]I respect that. However, I guess I was looking for an alternative other than going through police services and whether a justice of the peace could serve that function.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1550)[English]In some ways.... They could bring the complaint forward, but the police would still come and need to take a statement.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59293RonMcKinnonRon-McKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKinnonRon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ron McKinnon: (1550)[English]That's okay. It can be initiated outside of the police forces. Is that right?Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]Yes.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59293RonMcKinnonRon-McKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKinnonRon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ron McKinnon: (1555)[English]Okay.My other question, if I have time, is about warrants. Medical records typically are privileged. In order to access them, you'd probably need specific incidents to get a warrant about. If you had a complainant who was a victim, you could presumably get a warrant for that person's medical records much more easily to follow up on that specific complaint.Civil and human rightsPatient recordsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]Yes. Normally, though, when we do have a victim, it's basically consent. The victim can provide consent and we can get access to the records.Civil and human rightsPatient recordsReproductive healthWomenRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59293RonMcKinnonRon-McKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McKinnonRon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ron McKinnon: (1555)[English]Okay. Great.Those were my questions.BrendaLuckiBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Did you have a question Mr. Ayoub?RonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamRamezAyoubThérèse-De Blainville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub (Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.): (1555)[Translation]Yes, I would like to ask a question if we have a bit of time left.I will continue in the same vein as Mr. Davies, who asked you why you do not investigate until you receive complaints or names are submitted to you.In that specific case, what do you think organizations defending those who have been wronged should do? There are about 100 such organizations. According to those people, a crime has taken place. What do you suggest they do so that you can do your job?Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English] For the lawyers who have the 100 names, if they were to speak with those victims and provide them the option of coming to the police, we would absolutely sit down with each and every victim they have, to look at it from a criminal point of view. That's one thing they could do. Obviously they're not going to release the names without their consent as well, but if they were to, and if we could have those conversations and possibly could convince victims to come forward through the lawyers, that would be one avenue we could explore.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenRamezAyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Mr. Ouellette.BrendaLuckiRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1555)[English]I was just wondering how the RCMP would balance this out between criminal investigations and the professional obligations of professional bodies, such as the college of physicians, which also has to conduct investigations and regulate its members. Is there a difference? How do they balance out?Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]They have their own processes, their regulatory processes that we don't get involved in. We go through the Criminal Code, and so it's criminal.... When it comes to regulatory, it's no different from how in our organization we have internal investigations. Maybe it's not against the Criminal Code, so we do our internal investigation, just as any—Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1555)[English]Meaning that a doctor could have not taken the necessary precautions to ensure that someone truly wanted to have sterilization or a tubal ligation yet proceeded with the procedure anyway and the college could determine they had broken its code of ethics, but it might not be a criminal matter.Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]It depends. If they feel it was criminal they should be bringing it forward to the police. It's no different from it is when we do an internal investigation. If we get enough reason to believe—reasonable and probable grounds—that a criminal matter has occurred, then we would go that route.Civil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1555)[English]I have another short question. If someone wanted to make a complaint to the police—indigenous people often don't do this—how would they go about doing that? Is there a number for the RCMP that you can call?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]If it's urgent, you can call 911, obviously. Each town has its own local number, which—Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1555)[English]We're talking about Saskatchewan, where we say there's a very great problem and a great gulf between police services and indigenous peoples. If I don't trust the police in Saskatchewan, how am I going to call them? Who am I going to call?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]You could present your complaint to another police agency and they would take it to the police of jurisdiction. If you wanted to, if you trusted the police in Alberta, you could go over to Alberta and make your complaint, but the complaint would come back to Saskatchewan, the police of jurisdiction.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1555)[English]Is there a 1-800 number for the RCMP?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]There's 911.Voices: Oh, oh!Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1555)[English]Okay. I have one final question. In Canadian history, has anyone ever been charged under the Criminal Code with aggravated assault in relation to forced sterilization, as far as you're aware?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]Not to my knowledge, but I'm not 100% sure.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreRobert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89466Robert-FalconOuelletteRobert-Falcon-OuelletteWinnipeg CentreLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/OuelletteRobertFalcon_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Robert-Falcon Ouellette: (1555)[English]I believe that's it.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBrendaLuckiBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Thank you very much. That brings us to exactly four o'clock.I want to thank you again for coming on such short notice. Robert-FalconOuelletteWinnipeg CentreBrendaLuckiBrendaLuckiBrenda-LuckiInterventionCommr Brenda Lucki: (1555)[English]Thank you.BillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]I believe that's the shortest notice we've ever given anybody, and I know you're very busy so I wanted to thank you.Now we're going to take a break for a couple of minutes and change panels. Thank you very much.(1600)(1605)BrendaLuckiBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English] We'll reconvene our meeting number 154. Welcome, guests. We appreciate your taking the time to come to provide us with testimony. We are going to go to 5:10. I'll introduce our guests. Dr. Judith Bartlett is a retired professor from the faculty of medicine, University of Manitoba. From the DisAbled Women's Network of Canada, we have Sonia Alimi, research coordinator, and Jihan Abbas, researcher. From the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, we have Dr. Lisa Richardson, chair, indigenous health committee. From the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada, we have Dr. Jennifer Blake, chief executive officer.Thank you very much for coming. We're going to ask each of you for an opening statement and then we'll go to questions. We'll start with Dr. Bartlett.BillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett (Retired professor, Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba, As an Individual): (1605)[English] Thank you for the invitation. I have lots of red marks on my paper because I realize I'm going to have to cut it down a lot.I am going to talk about the Saskatoon Health Region lived experience of aboriginal women feeling coerced into tubal ligation. I and Dr. Yvonne Boyer were the co-studiers on that.I won't go into the media reports. You've heard about those. We started this project—were asked to—in the fall of 2016. The Saskatoon Health Region had attempted before that to have a review, but they had an individual whom the community just wasn't going to trust, so no women came forward.We proceeded with a community-based approach that involved pre-meetings with both the aboriginal and the health communities ahead of time, to get them to participate in the design of the study as well as to get their agreement to participate in the analysis of the data once we had it. It's a specific collective approach that I use in research.We did literature searches, of course, looking at all the international tools, and reviewed all of the corporate documents and laws. At one point we realized we had to actually examine the child welfare law as well, because it did have an impact.Eighteen aboriginal women called our confidential phone line. We interviewed seven of these—six in person and one by phone. Seven others made appointments, but for various reasons they were not able to attend. Some of them made a couple of tries, but they just weren't ready.We did nine interviews with health care personnel and an interview with a couple of social workers, as well, from child welfare.The interviews with the aboriginal women revealed that all clearly felt stressed and under much duress from being coerced, while they were in labour, into having a tubal ligation, and this added extra stress to the usual stress of childbirth. The review outlines the depth of the women's experience of being coerced. Themes arising reveal that aboriginal women were living, often, overwhelming and complex lives when this coercion was taking place. This complexity was intricately interwoven with the negative historical context of colonialism.The overarching themes for the women were that aboriginal women felt invisible, profiled and powerless. They experienced the coercion. I don't have the time to talk about the details of that, but those are in the report. They talked about the impacts on their self-image, their relationships and their access to health care at a later time.Such experiences as these keep aboriginal women from accessing health care. They're aware that the risk is higher to them, but they just cannot make themselves go, and that has implications for their children as well, and for the rest of their family.Considering the distress they had and the angst they had about attending, the fact that they actually got there and told their stories to strangers was quite amazing.The health providers were really concerned to hear that aboriginal women experienced coercion. Their overriding themes were in and around policy and team challenges. They realized there were negative attitudes toward aboriginal women and how this whole issue impacted internal and external care.(1610)Data analysis revealed that health providers work in large, complex and ever-changing hospital systems and environments. Most felt that in recent years positive policy and practice had happened, but they did think that aboriginal women were still falling between the cracks. One thing they brought up, as did the women, was the issue of child and family services. On top of the coercion of having a tubal ligation, they were also often faced with their child being apprehended within a couple of days of birth. That was a major issue. They all came up with suggestions. You'll see them in the report and you'll see the details of the study in the report. We came up with recommendations. In terms of the data, one thing we could not find was data on medical charts. We were able to get three medical charts, but the rest of them were destroyed at 10 years. That answers the question about litigation for some of these women. When their history goes back 20 years, there's no way to find that. Saskatchewan, like all the provinces at that time, was in the midst of a lot of health care changes. We felt that their knee-jerk reaction to immediately stop tubal ligations post-delivery, unless you had a pre-discussion with a family doctor or an obstetrician, was going to be a real problem. The health providers and the women also thought that was going to be a real problem in the future. We suggested that the first thing they needed to do was to look at this policy. We also felt that they needed to utilize the resources they have. They have an aboriginal health council, they have a Métis and first nations health service, and they had, at the time, some sort of steering group that was working with changing their provincial policies. In these recommendations, we reminded them that there were requirements in Canadian law; that the implementation of an indigenous health engagement strategy, we felt, needed to be in place; and that there were requirements in Canadian law for consultation and accommodation.Regarding cultural training, we recommended that they have mandatory cultural training looking at indigenous peoples and their cultures and at human rights cultures. There needs to be a clear addressing of the false stereotypes about aboriginal women being unable to look after their own children, where decisions are made for them.In education, we recommended that there needed to be cultural competency in nursing, medical and all health professions. This is beyond cultural training. It means that there needs to be introspection by the learner to understand their own level of privilege in society. There are lots of papers on that. That can be learned.(1615)They were talking about restructuring in Saskatchewan. We feel that the change has to be substantive, not simply an indigenization of health. That will not be enough. They need to begin extraordinary measures. It's been probably 20 or 25 years—I can't remember how long now—that we've had an Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre in Winnipeg. Saskatoon has a large aboriginal population and they don't have that yet.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsEducation and trainingPatient recordsReproductive healthResearch and researchersUniversity of ManitobaWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English] I have to ask you to wind up, if you would. Thanks.JudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1615)[English]Okay.We thought they needed an advisory council to help the women who experienced this go through whatever process they selected to go through in order to go through a healing process. We expected that they needed to partner with expert groups—indigenous nursing, indigenous physicians and others—and that there be actual resources put on the table to ensure that those groups could participate.Then, in terms of the issue of women who are at high risk, we recommended a reproductive centre of some type that would be supportive of women. One health provider stated that there were at least 30 high-risk pregnant women in her practice. There are examples. For instance, health providers talked about Sanctum House, which provides wraparound services for people living with or affected by HIV or AIDS, and Infinity House for mothers and children with transition—Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Dr. Bartlett, I'm sorry. We have to go to the DisAbled Women's Network of Canada now. Thank you.JudithBartlettSoniaAlimiSoniaAlimiSonia-AlimiInterventionMs. Sonia Alimi (Research Coordinator, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada): (1615)[Translation]Good afternoon.Before we focus on the points we are discussing today, on behalf of the DisAbled Women's Network of Canada, we want to remind you that we are meeting on unceeded Algonquin territory and highlight the period of truth and reconciliation we are now going through. So let's take this opportunity to focus more specifically on the needs of our aboriginal sisters and on how we can repair the harm caused to improve the lives of current and future generations.We thank the Standing Committee on Health for inviting our organization to testify and we recognize the other witnesses here today.We will make our presentation in both official languages.At the DisAbled Women's Network of Canada, we are committed to denouncing oppressions intersectionally. So we address oppressions stemming from ableism, a system that infringes on the rights and freedoms of people whose abilities do not meet the standards, as well as racism, colonialism, sexism and other systems of oppression.When it comes to forced sterilizations, we think they are a direct consequence of an ableist society. In that sense, they have specific repercussions on girls and women with disabilities. Jihan Abbas will highlight that painful observation.Let's not forget that forced sterilization is closely related to a eugenic vision to determine and hierarchize individuals and their possibilities of existence. It is based on the logic of ableist oppression, which has established notions of deviation, by targeting what is missing, what is against nature and what can be oppressed and limited. As a result, we consider that forced sterilization, being a concrete expression of the ableist system, opens the door to racist, colonialist and sexist practices, among other things.We know that racism and ableism are tightly interwoven. It is very useful to remind you that the eugenics movement, both in the United States and in Canada, had to do with the white supremacist ideas focusing on the degeneration of the white race. An overwhelming number of black women have been subjected to and are still being subjected to non-consensual sterilizations.Researcher Shatema Threadcarft, in her 2016 work on intimate justice and the bodies of black women in the United States, shows the prevalence of those practices.Canada is no exception in that respect. Before the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights, university professor Josephine Etowa revealed that, during a study on the health condition of black women in Nova Scotia, it was noted that hysterectomy was being practised in a worrisome proportion. Here is what Ms. Etowa said, and I quote:They started telling us their personal stories of how women in their community, especially those with dark skin colour, every time they went to the doctor, even in their early twenties, hysterectomy was one of the answers to whatever problem they went to see the doctor for.So we understand how racism and ableism are expressed, and we see that this is an important issue in the forced sterilization file.It is also a problem experienced by trans and intersex individuals.Alexandre Baril, assistant professor at the University of Ottawa, states in his 2013 thesis that the Canadian government requires trans individuals who want to acquire a marital status to undergo changes to their genital organs involving a suppression of the ability to reproduce “naturally”.Canadian sociologist and anthropologist Morgan Holmes, who represents the Egale Canada group, also reports on the concrete effects of cisgenderism leading to the forced sterilization of intersex individuals, especially children. She also appeared before the Standing Committee on Human Rights, on May 15, 2019. During her presentation, she denounced the paradox of subsection 268(3) of the Criminal Code, which, while prohibiting female genital mutilation, authorizes surgical procedures on intersex children, whose reproductive capabilities are removed with impunity and without consent.On another note, which still continues to shed light on the situation intersectionally, the issue of sterilization also affects women in prison in large numbers. A U.S. study from 2016 talks about the pressures on incarcerated women to undergo surgeries to remove their reproductive capabilities. That same study confirms that those injunctions always seek to respond to a eugenic and ableist system.The facts I am sharing here with you are only the tip of the iceberg. It is important to know that many other women at the intersection of multiple oppressions are subjected to forced sterilization. That is why we feel it is important, in the context of our presentation, to insist on the intersectional dimension of this problem and to show that solutions cannot be found outside such an analysis.(1620)I will now yield the floor to Ms. Abbas.Black peoplesCivil and human rightsDisAbled Women's Network of CanadaImprisonment and prisonersIntersex personsPersons with disabilitiesReproductive healthTransgender personsWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterJihanAbbasJihanAbbasJihan-AbbasInterventionMs. Jihan Abbas (Researcher, DisAbled Women's Network of Canada): (1620)[English] In Canada, women with disabilities have historically been targeted for coercion and forced sterilization, and they remain vulnerable to these practices even today. Canada was of course influenced by the eugenics movement throughout the 20th century. In fact, both Alberta and British Columbia had legislation enabling sterilization for anyone diagnosed as “mentally ill” or “deficient”. Data from the Alberta Eugenics Board case files indicate 1,154 women with disabilities were sterilized under these practices. Close to 40% of these were sterilized after 1955.Sterilization laws in Alberta were not repealed until 1972. Unfortunately, in the case of British Columbia, records of these practices have been lost or destroyed. While other provinces may not have had official sterilization laws, countless women with disabilities were likely sterilized, as these procedures were often performed on young women with disabilities through parental consent. As well, sterilization practices in Canada have also been sexist, racist and imperialist and have disproportionately targeted indigenous women. There are two examples of case law that show the vulnerability of women with disabilities to forced sterilization, as well as the possibility for legal protection. In 1995, Leilani Muir, a woman with an intellectual disability, successfully sued the Alberta government over the practice of forced sterilization. Muir, who had been admitted to the Provincial Training School for Mental Defectives in 1955, had been sterilized at age 14. Her advocacy led to an official apology from the Alberta government and compensation for hundreds of others.There was also the 1986 Supreme Court of Canada decision known as the Eve decision. The case involved a 24-year-old woman with an intellectual disability. The mother had argued that, as her daughter's substitute decision-maker, she wanted to be authorized to have her daughter undergo tubal ligation. The Supreme Court ruled against the mother, saying that the procedure was “non-therapeutic”.This landmark decision was a critical turning point in the struggle for recognition of the rights of persons with intellectual disabilities. It ended the long-standing practice of non-therapeutic sterilization of people with intellectual disabilities and other mental disabilities and affirmed that, regardless of cognitive ability, all persons have a fundamental right that cannot be overridden.Despite these cases, parental influence continues to be a factor for young women with disabilities, as parents still wield power and control that can influence access to and decisions around reproductive health. In our own research, the recently released “More Than a Footnote” report, we spoke to one woman who shared that her parents had made reproductive health choices on her behalf without her consent and against her will. Much of the existing research here deals with women with intellectual disabilities, as they appear particularly vulnerable to this. They have inadequate access to education and they're more likely to experience poor reproductive health outcomes.We also want to note that in terms of reproductive coercion young women and girls with disabilities may be subject to problematic forms of power and control over their reproductive health because of the role of adult decision-makers in their lives. Of course, here is the intersection of paternalism and ableism.One recent Canadian study framed these ongoing forms of coercion as violence enacted upon young women with disabilities and drew attention to some of the most prevalent forms. These include birth control sabotage, pregnancy coercion and controlling the outcomes of a pregnancy.For young women with disabilities, there are unique dynamics that require our attention. On this note, the continued use of Depo-Provera as a contemporary practice is something to which we must pay attention. Depo-Provera remains controversial, and its side effects can be serious and are not well understood. There is evidence that this was prescribed to women with disabilities before it was approved in Canada as a contraception. As well, one Canadian study found that young women with intellectual disabilities were commonly prescribed this in response to family and caregiver concerns about pregnancy and menstrual hygiene.One of the most disturbing things we've come across is the practice of applying invasive growth attenuation treatments, commonly referred to as the Ashley treatment, to children with complex disabilities and medical conditions. It's aimed at keeping them small, presumably to make it easier for their caregivers to provide care. Procedures can include things such as high doses of estrogen, hysterectomies and breast bud removal. While this practice seems more prevalent in the U.S., it has spread to other countries and it's difficult to gauge what is happening here in Canada. There is a need for a dedicated space to explore these things.Finally, in DAWN Canada's research, it has also been illustrated how widespread reproductive coercion is for women with disabilities. Women with disabilities share that while they may not be the victims of forced sterilization, as they would have been historically, they continue to be actively pressured against motherhood. There are continued reminders from family, friends and medical professionals that shape their decision-making. Of course, there are several factors that increase vulnerability among this group. These include limited contraception options and a lack of knowledge among health care providers about disability.(1625)We have recommendations to reduce this vulnerability. These include supporting self-advocacy so women and girls with disabilities become partners in their own care, teaching health care providers about disability to avoid ignorance and ableism, and conducting more research and policy analysis to examine the many insidious ways in which women with disabilities and their bodies are controlled by caregivers, parents and support workers.Finally, in terms of broader action, DAWN Canada points to the promise offered through the Nairobi principles, which seek to affirm sexual and reproductive rights through an intersectional lens that is inclusive of both a gender analysis and the very real impacts of ableism on the lived experiences of women and girls with disabilities. These principles move us collectively to a place that affirms both the need for access to safe abortion and the need to consider the ways ableism shapes autonomy and access to reproductive health.Thank you.Civil and human rightsDisAbled Women's Network of CanadaParentsPersons with disabilitiesReproductive healthWomenSoniaAlimiBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thanks very much.Now we go to Dr. Richardson.JihanAbbasLisaRichardsonLisaRichardsonLisa-RichardsonInterventionDr. Lisa Richardson (Chair, Indigenous Health Committee, Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada): (1625)[English]Thank you for having me here on behalf of the Royal College. I'm the chair of the indigenous health committee there and one of the few indigenous physicians at the University of Toronto. I practice general internal medicine. I'm very actively involved in indigenous medical education and I really want to focus my opening on the role of education and where we should go following these terrible and very upsetting activities. Particularly since I am a health practitioner and an indigenous woman, that intersection makes this topic area extremely personal and difficult to talk about, quite frankly.I want to provide some context and background for how we think about the experiences of indigenous peoples overall in the health care system. We have ongoing evidence of the mistreatment of our peoples within health care. They experience racism and this most egregious manner of mistreatment in the form of forced sterilization. We have ample evidence around that: the Health Council of Canada reports, our health council report, and the “First Peoples, Second Class Treatment” report, as well as all of the anecdotal evidence that we experience every day as indigenous health advocates. For example, I received a phone call from my colleague in emergency saying, “You need to come down and deal with this. I have a patient who's just had a large acute myocardial infarction and did not have any lifesaving treatment for six hours because there was a thought that this person was inebriated.” This is the reality of our peoples within the health care system.Second, there is the intersection of this with being an indigenous woman. For these women who've experienced the forced and coerced sterilization this is, of course, another layer of intersection. I appreciate my colleague's approach to intersectionality, because we know that the vulnerability of an indigenous person in the health care system is extreme. Add to that the experience of being an indigenous woman and everything that we know from the MMIWG report and the embodiment of colonial violence is actually compounded when one enters the health care system. That is the context in which we need to consider how we move forward on this.One of our major recommendations is that there be a large commitment to and investment in cultural safety education for our health care providers. This is what we are actively committed to at the Royal College. In fact, we passed a motion in our council in 2017 to make indigenous cultural safety and anti-racism education a mandatory component of every subspecialty training program across the country, as well as a part of accreditation. That needs to extend to people in practice. There needs to be an understanding not only of the specific needs and how to have important conversations in a culturally safe way with all practitioners but also of colonial and historical practices and how they continue to play out in that patient-provider interaction.Working with a wonderful team at the Royal College, we're really trying to pull together information and push this out, but that leads to recommendation two, which is that we need to have accountability measures in place. We need data. I'm a physician. I'm a scientist. We need data, but I would argue that we need to think about what counts as data, because we don't need a randomized controlled trial to elucidate the fact that there is a problem here. We have stories from people coming forward. What we need to do is to facilitate that coming forward for those people, the women who've experienced this or who are concerned about an interaction, in a way that is safe and that lets them know that they will be listened to and that their experience as an indigenous person is actually recognized and valued.What are some mechanisms through which one might do that? I want to draw upon what I think are different layers as to how one might think about this kind of work. I'm very familiar with some of the mechanisms in Ontario. One could leverage some of the quality metrics and quality standards that exist at the provincial and regional health authority level, such as the Excellent Care for All Act in Ontario, under which we're asked to have quality improvement plans, patient safety questionnaires, etc. How can we build on these experiences of indigenous patients and indigenous women and, in particular, have an understanding of what policies and procedures exist around sterilization practices? How can that be embedded within existing structures? (1630) At a larger level, how can PHAC, for example, build on the amazing work that's been done with the opioid crisis to collect, gather data, and then report on it? What I love about PHAC and the opioid response is that you can go on the website and actually see what the data is and what the numbers are. That level of transparency is very important when you're working with our communities.The third piece I want to speak about is that in our practice at the Royal College we recognize that we are a colonial institution. We're working very hard to decolonize, but we recognize that tension. We have amazing indigenous practitioners who are working there, but our practice is always one of self-determination and allyship. Even though I'm an indigenous person working at the Royal College, I'm still working within a non-indigenous institution. We support our colleagues and national indigenous organizations in their calls around the criminalization of this behaviour and of this practice. I actually believe, and in hearing the earlier testimony, that the current system is not working. How can we look at changing the Criminal Code in order to make sure that these cases are being appropriately investigated and followed? Thank you.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsEducation and trainingReproductive healthRoyal College of Physicians and Surgeons of CanadaWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you.Now we go to Dr. Blake.LisaRichardsonJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake (Chief Executive Officer, Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada): (1635)[English]Thank you very much. I'm the chief executive officer of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada, commonly known as SOGC. I am an obstetrician-gynecologist. I'm also adjunct professor of obstetrics and gynecology at both the University of Ottawa and the University of Toronto. In the past I've served as chief of obstetrics and gynecology and head of women's health at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre, chief of pediatric gynecology at the Hospital for Sick Children, and undergraduate dean of McMaster University's medical school. I'm bringing a lot of years with me.Let me begin by saying that when I was first contacted about forced sterilization, I assumed we were talking about a deep historical practice. I was shocked to hear that we were talking about something that's current. It is my hope that, as of today, it is indeed history. I also need to say that I'll be referring to women using “she”, “her” and “hers”. This is not because we are not mindful of the needs of all persons, but because the fundamental mission of the SOGC is the advancement of the health of women. As I think we've heard amply today, that work is not yet done.The SOGC is a professional society that draws its membership from obstetricians, gynecologists, family doctors, nurses and midwives—many professionals. It advocates on behalf of women to receive quality care throughout their sexual and reproductive lives, including, always, the right to safe, respectful and culturally appropriate care. There are more than 380,000 childbirths in Canada each year. In each case, we believe that the caregivers are extraordinarily caring and professional and are mindful of the particular vulnerabilities we have when we are pregnant and when we are in labour; we can talk about what those are. We also guide women through a lifetime of intimate gynecologic needs. These needs must always be met with uncompromising professionalism and respect.The SOGC advances health care through education, advocacy, leadership and collaboration. We have no examining, licensing or regulatory authority over any health care provider. We do provide clinical practice guidelines—10 to 17 each year—that are carefully researched and are interprofessional in their development. I would draw your attention to the 2013 guideline on cultural competence, which was developed by our indigenous women's health committee in consultation with many indigenous women's groups.This is part of our significant educational role, providing professional development to licensed members, all based on a philosophy that respects sexual and reproductive health as a human right. These rights have been well described by the United Nations. The right to decide freely and responsibly the number, spacing and timing of an individual's children, and to have the means and information to do so, is a fundamental human right. We also seek to recognize and remedy the inequities of access and outcomes faced by indigenous women and vulnerable women in Canada and around the world. This is also in call to action 19 of the TRC report.I'm here today to speak about the experiences of sterilization brought forward by indigenous women and described in the Boyer and Bartlett report. I need to say that coercion has no place in any surgical procedure. As physicians, we fully understand the ethical primacy of autonomy, and therefore, of freely given and fully informed consent, but consent is influenced by context. I need to address some of those contexts and considerations.First, the bar for informed consent is much higher for vulnerable persons and for elective procedures than it is for life-threatening situations in an emergency room, for example, and particularly so for irreversible ones. For such an important choice as permanent sterilization, it is preferred to have these discussions long before delivery, for reasons that I can explain. It's always more challenging to obtain a fully informed consent when a person is in pain, or in crisis, or far away from her home and community. The process of obtaining consent is far more complex than just obtaining a signature. It's a thoughtful discussion of the procedure's risks and benefits but also the alternatives. For example, a hormonal IUD provides far better contraception than sterilization and is reversible, and a vasectomy carries much less surgical risk than a tubal sterilization.There may be circumstances that lead to a late request. Dr. Bartlett alluded to the fact that a moratorium can also be harmful. However, we need to be aware that for some of these, such as a life-threatening complication that would arise in a subsequent pregnancy, you might not know it until the time of delivery, and therefore, that's the time when this discussion is happening. That is a problem, and you have to be extremely careful. It can result in a strong recommendation against subsequent pregnancies. Communication is critical, but it is always the woman's informed choice to make. It is her decision whether she wishes to have or to not have a sterilization, and to understand the risks that go along with either of those choices. There are risks, in that case, with either. (1640) For no other procedure do we worry as much about the risk of regret as we do with tubal sterilization. We always have to worry about the woman not having reason for subsequent regret. The ability to bear a child is so fundamental. Tubal sterilization we always consider permanent and an irrevocable choice. There are different methods, and some of them are potentially reversible, but those reversals carry a risk of tubal pregnancy, which can be a life-threatening complication, especially if you live in a remote community.Consent is fundamentally based on a therapeutic alliance between the patient and her health care provider. If that therapeutic relationship is not present, it's far more difficult to be sure that you do indeed have consent. Circumstances that erode trust are a perceived power imbalance and the experience of racism and isolation. All of these intersectional stresses that we've discussed can make it very difficult to be sure that consent has been freely given. The assent may be there, the signature may be there, but there is no true test of consent. That is one of the complexities.As a physician, you are not aware of what's gone on before. You don't know whether conversations have gone on that might have influenced the decision. You don't know about prior traumas that may have led to an impaired consent. If a woman is incarcerated, does she have children in care? Has she been threatened with loss of her children? Are there other pressures at play that she might not disclose? Is she struggling with addictions? Is she a victim of human trafficking? All of these things make us vulnerable. The crucial context might not be disclosed due to fear or a sense of powerlessness or hopelessness. They can be difficult to determine in the best of circumstances, but when you're in a crisis or an acute situation, you really don't know.Cultural safety and literacy are important competencies that we hope will lead to improved therapeutic relationships. We are well aware that how we communicate is culturally bound. It's not just about the language. A thousand other cultural influences bind our ability to communicate and to reach understanding with one another. We support the recommendations of TRC calls to action 23 and 24. Those in fact were why we published our guideline in 2013. We believe this is crucial. We believe the currently available cultural safety training does not specifically or adequately deal with issues with respect to women's health. There are specific needs that this issue brings up that have to be brought forward. They are far more complex and just add layers of nuance to what needs to be taught.Decisions with respect to fertility or sterilization are far more complex than a relatively simple technical procedure. I've seen women refuse cancer-curing treatments in order to not risk the potential that they might have a child, and they died knowing they'd made the right decision even though they had in fact never been able to conceive. Fertility is something that is deeply important to people.While the cases that have come to light focus on indigenous women, we at the SOGC believe these considerations apply to all people, regardless of their identity. Trust, communication and understanding are paramount in any relationship. No physician wants to learn that a patient they treated in good faith gave their consent under coercion. We will work with all involved parties—we welcome this hearing—to ensure that a process is in place to protect the freedom of reproductive choice that all women should enjoy.We support the recommendations of TRC calls to action 23 and 24 for cultural competency training, but we specifically call for additional modules dealing with the issues around women's health. We think all contraceptive options need to be fully available to all Canadians, free of barriers. We know that cost is a barrier for many. That ranges from education to cost-free access. We know that long-acting reversible contraception is the superior method of contraception, but we don't have implants yet in Canada that are easily inserted, easily removed and provide effective contraception. They are available in just about every other country. Not every woman wants an intrauterine device.(1645)Finally, healthy pregnancy and childbirth lie at the heart of a healthy community. The most important thing that any of us has is our family. We know that a multitude of transgenerational harms can be transmitted in pregnancy and, conversely, can be mitigated by a healthy pregnancy, and there is so much evidence on this. That means good nutrition, clean air and water, and appropriate health care in a supportive and caring community. We ask the Government of Canada to really help ensure that every Canadian has the best start in life.Thank you.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthSociety of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of CanadaWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]I just have to say that you're all amazing. I think we're so lucky to have access to your experience, your knowledge and your thoughts.As you did, Dr. Blake, I thought we were talking about something historical when this first came up.JenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1645)[English]Yes.BillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]For a lot of us here, we're just scratching the surface in learning about this.We will now go to questions. We're going to start with Dr. Eyolfson.JenniferBlakeDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89027DougEyolfsonDoug-EyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/EyolfsonDoug_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Eyolfson (Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, Lib.): (1645)[English]Thank you, Chair. Thank you all for coming.Dr. Abbas, you hit the nail on the head. During the testimony, one of the words that came to mind from my medical training was the word “paternalism”. As a medical student, I would overhear these conversations at other tables among more senior practitioners: “This 23-year-old is on her eighth pregnancy. I'm going to do a caesarean.” “Why don't you just ask her if she wants a tubal when you do that?” More often than not they would be indigenous, but basically they would be people who were poor. Again, indigenous people are overrepresented among those in poverty. I think I know the answer to this question, but if someone is in this situation and she's about to go in for a caesarean and the doctor says, “We're going in. Since I'm in there anyway, and you already have eight kids, do you want a tubal ligation?” would you call that being coerced? Dr. Bartlett, I see you nodding your head.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1645)[English]I would call that being coerced. That woman is in no condition emotionally to make that kind of decision. In fact, that happens—you're correct—more often than it should happen. Any time you're being asked to make a decision when you're not in a state of mind to weigh out the pros and cons, then it's coercion.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89027DougEyolfsonDoug-EyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/EyolfsonDoug_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Eyolfson: (1645)[English]Thank you.Would we say there's general agreement to that around the table?Go ahead, please.JudithBartlettJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1645)[English]Can I just say that there is general agreement, but you don't know the circumstances. You've painted a picture in such a way that someone, in kind of a cavalier way, is saying, “While we're in there”, but you don't just “while we're in there” get to a caesarean section. Is this her eighth caesarean section, for example? Where does she live? I think in any case, you can talk about generalities—Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89027DougEyolfsonDoug-EyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/EyolfsonDoug_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Eyolfson: (1645)[English]Absolutely.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1645)[English]—but you have to really understand that there are specifics in each situation that need to be really thoughtfully considered.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89027DougEyolfsonDoug-EyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/EyolfsonDoug_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Eyolfson: (1645)[English]I agree. I meant if they were doing it, because as we know.... Again, I don't like to admit this on behalf of my profession, but there are those who do make cavalier decisions sometimes, and tragically enough they think their intentions are good even when you realize that ultimately there are very disastrous results.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1645)[English]We can agree that cavalier decision-making is not good decision-making and is inappropriate.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89027DougEyolfsonDoug-EyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/EyolfsonDoug_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Eyolfson: (1645)[English]Absolutely.This is a question for all the people across the board here with medical backgrounds. If you find that a sterilization was performed and, in fact, the woman did not give consent, what sanctions or actions is a regulatory body like a licensing authority—for example, the provincial college of physicians and surgeons—able to take?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1650)[English]Depending on the circumstances, you can lose your licence to practise. There are a range of issues, but if in fact there is coercion, which is operating without consent, that is actually something that would result in disciplinary action and there are a range of actions that the college can impose right through to permanently barring someone from practising. Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89027DougEyolfsonDoug-EyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/EyolfsonDoug_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Eyolfson: (1650)[English] Thank you.Dr. Richardson, you talked about the culturally relevant education. I agree. We had much of this in residency. I'm a rural college graduate from the EM program. We find that for such fundamental issues this needs to be done more or less before residency. Has there been dialogue with the medical schools to get such culturally appropriate and culturally sensitive training at a very early stage, before people are heading out to the wards to actually see patients?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsEducation and trainingReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeLisaRichardsonLisaRichardsonLisa-RichardsonInterventionDr. Lisa Richardson: (1650)[English]Thank you for the question. It's actually great timing, because our major national organization, the Association of Faculties of Medicine of Canada, which is for undergraduate medical education, the Royal College and the College of Family Physicians of Canada are meeting next Sunday, because our deans have approved the creation of a national consortium in order to make sure that we are sharing and doing this work.I'm going to speak as an educator. It's a spiral, so that you start before you enter medical school. We're now having conversations about having as a requirement for entry into medical school cultural safety education, so that once our students arrive, we're not having to teach what one of my elders calls “Indigenous 101”, but are actually able to delve into this. How does one practice trauma-informed care? How does one have these complex conversations where there's historical trauma?We are all committed to that. It's happening. In fact, it's been happening in the medical schools for much longer, and now we're extending this into residency training.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsEducation and trainingReproductive healthWomenDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyDougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89027DougEyolfsonDoug-EyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyLiberal CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/EyolfsonDoug_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Doug Eyolfson: (1650)[English]Thank you. I had some other questions, but they more or less got answered during the testimony so I'll stop a little prematurely.Thanks very much to all of you.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenLisaRichardsonBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Now we have Ms. Gladu.DougEyolfsonCharleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—HeadingleyMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1650)[English]Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.I'm going to start with you, Dr. Blake. Is it only obstetricians and gynecologists in Canada who can perform a tubal ligation?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1650)[English]No. Depending on where you are, family physicians may well be the ones who are able to perform a tubal.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1650)[English]Is there a complaint process such that if somebody felt they had a procedure without their informed consent they could complain about an OB/GYN?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1650)[English]Yes. It starts at the local hospital level. I think almost every hospital now has an ombudsperson or someone in a quality office you would be able to speak to. Beyond that, there is the college in your province or territory. Also, at any time, you could speak with a lawyer, if you felt that it was for your lawyer. There's also your own care provider. You could go to your family doctor, who could help you push a complaint forward.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1650)[English]The reason I'm asking you this is that we've heard testimony that people could be charged today under existing law—so I'm not sure another law will help—but we've heard that people are too intimidated to speak to police or to even go through that whole criminal process. I'm trying to figure out how we eliminate these forced sterilizations. If there was a complaint brought forward professionally, what would the SOGC do if somebody received one or multiple complaints that they were doing sterilizations without consent?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1650)[English]The SOGC does not have any regulatory authority, so we would refer that to the local provincial college, and it would be up to the college. You'd really need to talk to the college about how they handle complaints that have a criminal element to them, but a forced sterilization would be illegal under current Canadian law.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1655)[English]Let's talk to the college. Dr. Richardson, what do you think the college would do if it received complaints like that?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeLisaRichardsonLisaRichardsonLisa-RichardsonInterventionDr. Lisa Richardson: (1655)[English] You're speaking about the regulatory authority and the provincial colleges, which I'm not a part of, but I actually did speak to the chief medical officer of our college, the CPSO, about this. As soon as they do a very thorough investigation, and as soon as there's any possibility that it is falling into the criminal realm, then it gets moved along. We have, unfortunately, many cases of that with regard to sexual assaults and sexual violence, so there is a precedent there and they are quite experienced. What she did say is that she wants to hear about all of this, and they're not hearing any of this. You're speaking about the reporting, and it is a major issue because patients in general don't want to report. The literature suggests that only 20% of patient safety incidents that lead to mortality, increase morbidity or increase hospital stays get reported.That's heightened completely for indigenous patients. When we speak to our people, they're worried about reporting. They're worried about the repercussions. If they make an anonymous report, the institution will not act because it's anonymous. If they make a report and they attach their name to it, they're suddenly the whistle-blower in a hostile environment, etc. I think the crux of one of the things that needs to be worked on is what reporting that is safe looks like. Maybe it's to a third party who doesn't have to disclose the full background and identity and ideally is someone who is indigenous or understands the indigenous experience. Then, do a more robust investigation. I think that reporting piece is critical when we look at the way.... We have a lot of experience in the patient safety world and in our health care institutions.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1655)[English]Perfect.I have a question now for you, Dr. Abbas. We're talking about people who are disabled. There are some disabled people who wouldn't be mentally competent to give consent and may be under parental care. I was listening to your comments about the parents taking the decision for them. What is the right thing to do in a circumstance where someone is not mentally competent to decide whether or not to have a procedure and they have people who maybe have their power of attorney or are their parents or their caregivers? What do you recommend should be done in that circumstance?Civil and human rightsMentally disabled peopleReproductive healthWomenLisaRichardsonJihanAbbasJihanAbbasJihan-AbbasInterventionMs. Jihan Abbas: (1655)[English]I think that's a big question. There are procedures around guardianship and things like that. I think one of the concerns, as we're hearing anecdotally from people, is that those formal things that would give somebody power of attorney or whatnot oftentimes aren't happening. It's happening informally with parents and caregivers. That's a real concern there as well, especially with women with disabilities.I don't know, Sonia, if you want to add to that.Civil and human rightsMentally disabled peopleReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonSoniaAlimiSoniaAlimiSonia-AlimiInterventionMs. Sonia Alimi: (1655)[Translation]Yes. I want to clarify what we also mean when we talk about individuals not giving their informed consent.For example, people with intellectual disabilities who are members of the People First movement consider that they can provide their informed consent.Who can decide what individuals can or cannot give their informed consent? That is a more social question and the answer is very broad, but I think that we should focus more on that aspect.Civil and human rightsMentally disabled peopleReproductive healthWomenJihanAbbasMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1655)[English]Also, Ms. Alimi, you talked about intersex people and the number of times they're being sterilized. How many intersex people are there in total in Canada?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenSoniaAlimiSoniaAlimiSoniaAlimiSonia-AlimiInterventionMs. Sonia Alimi: (1655)[Translation]I don't have the exact number. In my presentation, I mentioned the statements of Morgan Holmes, who represents the Egale Canada group. I don't have the exact figure; I cannot answer that question.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonMarilynGladuSarnia—Lambton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88938MarilynGladuMarilyn-GladuSarnia—LambtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GladuMarilyn_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Marilyn Gladu: (1655)[English]Okay.I want to talk a bit more about the cultural safety training. Dr. Richardson, I think you were talking about the training that's needed and what should be put in place. Does the federal government have a role to support that?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsEducation and trainingReproductive healthWomenSoniaAlimiLisaRichardsonLisaRichardsonLisa-RichardsonInterventionDr. Lisa Richardson: (1655)[English]It's great that you're asking. We've worked with the Métis National Council, the AFN and ITK. I'm a member of the Indigenous Physicians Association of Canada and the Canadian Indigenous Nurses Association. We've actually put together a request for the creation of a large online knowledge hub for cultural safety material, so that one can go to this online hub at any point and learn and expand one's knowledge. We've put that forward to Health Canada, and we're waiting to hear back from Dr. Gideon.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsEducation and trainingReproductive healthWomenMarilynGladuSarnia—LambtonBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/51BillCaseyBill-CaseyCumberland—ColchesterLiberal CaucusNova Scotia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaseyBill_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English] I'm sorry. We're done.Mr. Davies. LisaRichardsonDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Dr. Blake, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights have both recognized that informed consent can never be given during and immediately after labour and delivery. Is that the position of the society?Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1700)[English]We avoid, at all costs, trying to obtain consent at the time of labour and delivery. There are many reasons for that. That is the hardest time, so you always try to make sure that the request and the intention to seek sterilization have been expressed previously.Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]You don't have a hard and fast rule that's as clear as that.Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1700)[English]We don't have a hard and fast rule on that, but I can tell you there is a universal understanding that this is not the time to be obtaining consent.Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]The International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics has emphasized that “sterilisation for prevention of future pregnancy cannot be ethically justified on grounds of medical emergency.... [She] must be given the time and support she needs to consider her choice.” Is that also consistent with your society's understanding?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1700)[English]Yes.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]Of course, at this committee's last meeting we learned that tubal ligations are being performed on indigenous women in Canada. We heard a story as recently as December 2018. These are being performed while women are in labour or immediately postpartum, when these women are physically and emotionally exhausted, often still under the influence of anaesthetic and unable to give informed consent.Given that it seems to be well established within your profession that it's not possible to give informed consent for tubal ligation immediately before, during or after labour, why do you think health professionals continue to seek it from indigenous women?Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1700)[English]I can't answer that, because, as I say, I had thought that this was a historical practice. You're asking me to speculate about something that....Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]I guess you'd agree that it shouldn't be happening.Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1700)[English]It's even more than what you've described. There's also the whole hormonal milieu in pregnancy. You're flooded with oxytocin. It's called the cuddle hormone. You don't have your natural safeguards working for you when you're full of oxytocin. It's an altered state of brain. It is clear that this is the time to avoid, and it's not necessary. You have alternatives if someone really doesn't want to consent.Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]I understand that.We had some testimony before, and I want to clarify something. Is the physician who's performing the tubal ligation or the procedure ultimately responsible for ensuring that informed consent has been given?Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1700)[English]Yes.Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]If these in fact have happened, these tubal ligations, then it is the person who's performing.... In all cases it would be a physician, I imagine, of some type. You mentioned that it could be a family physician or an—Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJenniferBlakeJennifer-BlakeInterventionDr. Jennifer Blake: (1700)[English]You are responsible. If you're the operating surgeon, you are responsible.Civil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]Okay. Thank you.Dr. Bartlett, I don't know if you were in the room when we heard the testimony of the commissioner of the RCMP who seems to have, up to now, found it difficult to determine the name of a single woman who has had this happen. How difficult is it—you've done some research—to find out the identities or names of women who have reported forced or coerced sterilization in Canada?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJenniferBlakeJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1700)[English]Even from our study, it's difficult. We have assured them that this is confidential, so, in fact, their names are destroyed.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]Do you know who some of them are?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1700)[English]I know who they are, but I can't—Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]You can't say who they are, but you've discovered who they are.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1700)[English]I've interviewed them, but I don't have their names anymore.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1700)[English]I understand, but you found them.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1700)[English]We found them. They found us through our posters and our reaching out. We had to reach out through the appropriate channels and take the appropriate process.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1705)[English]Right.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1705)[English]You can't just go out and say “report it.” The Saskatoon Health Region has a great in-ward reporting system for anything that goes wrong. The problem is that these women aren't even in a position to feel safe enough to do that.Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1705)[English]Right, and I'm going to get to that if I can.The Saskatchewan Health Authority is currently investigating the case of a 30-year-old woman, a Nakota woman, who says she was the victim of coerced sterilization at a Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, hospital on December 13, 2018. Does the Saskatchewan Health Authority know who that is?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1705)[English] I couldn't tell you.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1705)[English]Okay.A November 2018 article from APTN news quotes Senator Boyer as saying the following with respect to the report you co-authored: “The report that Dr. Bartlett and I did was just a mere glimpse into the problem.” We heard, of course, about the 100 allegations. Do you believe we currently understand the full scope of this problem in Canada?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1705)[English]No, I don't think so. I think a lot more research has to be done. I think something has to be done to make sure this doesn't happen.In terms of how all the women will come forward and deal with this, even the women who came to us said that when they left, they felt so much better just from having talked about it, just from having said it. There has to be something put in place where women can actually go and talk about this. They may not want to go to court or they may not want to talk to the health authority, but they need to express this harm.Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver Kingsway//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59325DonDaviesDon-DaviesVancouver KingswayNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DaviesDon_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Don Davies: (1705)[English]Right.I was struck by your use of the words “extraordinary measures”. We heard Commissioner Lucki talk about the need to build trust in police. Last month there was some pretty disturbing video of a Kelowna RCMP officer interrogating an underage indigenous woman, a teen, for more than two hours after she reported a sexual assault while in the care of the B.C. child welfare system. She was barraged with such denigrating questions as to whether or not she was at all turned on by it. A statement of claim was filed in March by that youth, who claimed that she felt punished for reporting a sexual assault. She also alleged that no meaningful investigations were carried out surrounding the circumstances of the sexual assault. This is the context in which indigenous women are experiencing interactions with the police, yet we just heard the commissioner of the RCMP say they're going to wait until indigenous women come to them. We just had the report of the murdered and missing women inquiry, which dealt with this issue in the context of genocide. Do you think it's reasonable for the Government of Canada to refuse to direct the RCMP or for the RCMP to refuse to undertake proactive investigations, to reach out to indigenous women, given that context of the experience of indigenous women with police in Canada?Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudithBartlettJudith-BartlettInterventionDr. Judith Bartlett: (1705)[English]I think they can reach out, but reaching out has to be done differently. A whole process has to be undertaken in order to reach out. I don't think women will come forward to the RCMP. There's no safety there for them. I don't think they will. I'm not sure I can answer your question....Civil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenDonDaviesVancouver KingswayDonDaviesVancouver KingswayINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE