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Marie-Chantal Girard
View Marie-Chantal Girard Profile
Marie-Chantal Girard
2021-05-10 15:33
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In the spirit of reconciliation, I would like to begin by acknowledging that we are speaking to you today from the traditional unceded territories.
My name is Marie-Chantal Girard, and I am the assistant deputy minister of the pensions and benefits sector. I am joined by Tolga Yalkin, assistant deputy minister of workplace policies and programs at the Treasury Board Secretariat.
In mid-March, many of the nearly 300,000 federal public servants began working from home virtually overnight.
Many continued their day-to-day tasks, delivering information, programs and services to Canadians.
A number of them were also asked to take on new work to support the government's response to the pandemic, including implementing public health preparedness and response measures, supports for citizens and businesses impacted by the crisis, and much more.
For example, more than a thousand federal public servants volunteered to staff the call centre for the Canadian emergency relief benefit.
Many other public servants are continuing to play an enabling role in supporting the delivery of government programs and services, including building up and maintaining a reliable information technology infrastructure to support remote work.
At the Treasury Board Secretariat, officials continue to support the government's response to the pandemic. They are managing the supply cycle of government planning and reporting, providing guidance to deputy heads for the management of human resources, and providing policy directions to departments in a whole range of other areas.
My colleague and I are here to answer your questions related to the human resources management of the public service during the pandemic.
The office of the chief human resources officer has been providing guidance to deputy heads on overall human resources management throughout the pandemic. In doing so, we continue to be guided by the advice of public health authorities, including the Public Health Agency of Canada and Health Canada's public service occupational health program, on all issues relating to the COVID-19 pandemic, including vaccination.
Like all Canadians, the vast majority of federal employees have already been or will be vaccinated according to the vaccination program in the province or territory in which they reside.
In light of the prevailing public health guidance, public service employees will largely continue to work remotely for the foreseeable future. For employees in key federal workplaces, the Government of Canada is expanding the use of rapid tests for screening purposes. Those in workplaces where there is a higher risk of exposure will be offered rapid tests on a voluntary basis, administered by trained personnel.
Within the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, there is an acknowledgement that, beyond the immediate physical health risks posed by the global pandemic, there are, and will continue to be, both short- and long-term psychological impacts for employees in the public sector, just as we are seeing in the broader Canadian society.
Steps continue to be taken, and active communications through a number of avenues are ensured so that public servants are aware of the supports available to them. These include enhanced access to mental health support, tools and guidance, and information and training sessions to help them navigate the challenges they face.
Temporary changes were made to the federal public service health care plan, expanding the list of covered service providers to include psychotherapists and social workers, and removing the requirement for a prescription for required paramedical services or extending the validity of the current prescription.
Temporary measures were also put in place to facilitate more flexible and alternative work arrangements and to support employees who are unable to work remotely. In addition, the COVID-19 and mental health virtual resource hub was launched. It provides free and accessible resources, supports and tools for employees, and is open to all Canadians.
While we continue to prioritize mental health and apply a mental health lens to much of what is done, employees face different mental health issues in their day-to-day environment. The goal is to ensure everyone finds the support they need.
The pandemic has not impacted all Canadians equally. In the federal public service, diversity, accessibility and inclusion are a priority, and much work remains to be done.
At the Treasury Board Secretariat, a number of actions have been taken over the past year to support departmental efforts in this area: first, the publication of new disaggregated workforce data and, last month, the launch of a new online interactive data visualization tool; second, the creation of the centre on diversity and inclusion in the office of the chief human resources officer, which leads new and innovative initiatives, does recruitment and talent management, and coordinates and co-develops solutions with stakeholders; third, the launch of the federal speaker's forum on diversity and inclusion to provide a platform for diverse public servants to share their lived experience; and finally, the implementation of the mentorship plus program, which pairs employees from diverse backgrounds with executive mentors and sponsors.
Public servants provide important programs and services to Canadians, and we are continually looking at ways to improve supports and resources available to them.
As has been the case thus far, any guidance on return to work sites will be guided by science, and developed in collaboration with deputy heads and in consultation with bargaining agents. We will, of course, adjust as the science evolves.
With that, we would be happy to answer questions members may have.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
View Andy Fillmore Profile
Lib. (NS)
View Andy Fillmore Profile
2021-04-21 17:14
Thanks very much for that, Chair.
I'm focused on the participation rates of various programs. I don't really want to do this, but Mr. Doherty raised a point here. Of course this is heartbreaking work that we're all engaged with and we can never do enough. We want to go faster, but even as Dr. Passey pointed out, the problems that we face today stem from cuts made before the 2015 election. This is not what I want to be talking about here. Those cuts were compounded by a 90% increase in uptake of veterans programs. That uptake happened because we were offering better and more programs. We are earnestly doing our best to rebuild what was broken by the previous government and to keep up with the demand created by the work that we've done to provide more services. You're helping us to do that.
I'm sorry I had to go there for a moment. I would like to turn now to participation in some of these programs. For example, on the VAC assistance service telephone line, we understand that participation rates by family members are very low. I think that's held out as one of the programs through which we are trying to help caregivers and family members—even children as I understand it—in veteran households.
If any witness has experience with the assistance service telephone line, would you have any feedback for us on why the numbers are low, why uptake is low and what we might do better with that phone line? I'll just leave that wide open for anybody who has had that experience.
Mr. Gauthier, you have the floor.
Richard Gauthier
View Richard Gauthier Profile
Richard Gauthier
2021-04-21 17:16
The issue is that the entitlements aren't explained properly and that it takes too long to access the benefits. As soon as a military member deals with Veterans Affairs Canada, they should be given a document explaining all the details of the program.
We've been talking about the Australian program for a while now, but the program in Canada is very good. The issue is always the same. There are too many steps and too many people involved before you get to the decision-maker or decision-makers. I think that setting up a 1-800 help line and preparing a good document that explains the process step by step will help support caregivers and families. This must be looked at.
Canada's program is exceptional and it provides many allowances. However, there are too many steps to access the program and too many people involved. The process must be simplified. There should be a handout that explains all the entitlements available and that includes phone numbers that caregivers can call to speak to workers, psychologists and other specialists. This is important.
Give me six months, and I'll develop a program for this. It's very easy.
View Darrell Samson Profile
Lib. (NS)
Thank you very much, Chair.
I want to thank all three of you for your presentations. It's very difficult to listen to some particulars, and I thank you for helping us to better understand some of the situations that you have faced and that others have faced. I very much appreciate the focus, as Mr. Brassard said, on finding solutions that can help us improve the lives of and the support for veterans and their families.
I'd like to look at some of the programs that exist today and get some feedback from you on those programs to see how we can improve those more.
I will start off with the VAC assistance program, which is a 24-hour line that allows you to connect with professionals and gives you access to these professionals. My question is for any one of the three of you. When you call these people, what kinds of questions are being asked? Are they asking you questions? Are they asking you what some of the challenges are before they assess you?
Also, are you talking to the same individuals every time you call? Can you tell us a little bit about your experience with that system?
Allan Hunter
View Allan Hunter Profile
Allan Hunter
2021-04-14 16:28
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Part of the challenge for the people who answer the phones and get the questions is having a lack of understanding of who's on the other end. Typically the advocates end up making those calls and answering some of those questions.
One of the biggest challenges facing veterans across the country that I have seen is that, if the veteran is in crisis and is having mental and physical impairment difficulties, and they are trying to navigate the myriad questions and check boxes, if you will, that have to be filled out in order to get to the next level—“Are you entitled to it? What have you been given so far? Did it work?”, all of those different questions—in many, many cases, veterans just hang up the phone because they decide in their own minds that VAC is not going to help them. It's been said across the country that the system is set up to delay and deny until you die.
I want to pay homage to all of the people in VAC departments across this nation who have helped me personally save the lives of veterans from coast to coast. We can't deny that fact, but these people are faced with a system that is as complex to them as it is to the end-users, who are the veterans who are on the other end of it.
If the veteran's family is stepping in, as Tina alluded to, trying to get help, when they have to sue the government, quite obviously the program is designed for the bureaucracy to succeed and not the end-users. That's the challenge. The mental health piece of that is that we are losing veterans all the time to suicide because they give up. We're a nation that doesn't give up on our people. We are not a nation that should be giving up on our soldiers and our veterans, and whether they're in service or they're out of service, these are the challenges.
The first question is on where the veteran served, and all those different pieces, and someone's opinion might be “I'm sorry, but you don't qualify.” Then they call the next worker, who says, “You qualify, but we're going to need a telephone book-sized amount of paperwork filled out before we can get you to the next stage.” If you're living in your car, that's not going to get you to a very good place.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Tina Fitzpatrick
View Tina Fitzpatrick Profile
Tina Fitzpatrick
2021-04-14 16:31
I've called VAC's number, the 1-866 number, thousands of times starting in 2003, right to my last phone call, which was in 2018. I'm going to tell you, it's such a flawed system from beginning to end.
You get on there. You have to give your husband's number, which is not a big deal, but you have to go over your story every single time. There are no case managers. There's never been a case manager. My husband has been out now 18 years, and he's never had a case manager. When people talk about case managers, I don't know anything about that. Every time I've ever called, I've had to start from scratch and tell my whole story, depending on what the fight was that time.
There have been multiple, different things from prescriptions to appointments to everything, even like.... This is one example. Veterans, if they go to their psychologist or their psychiatrist, every couple of months they'd put in and get money for fuel, that type of thing. My husband hasn't done that in probably 12 years because they made it so difficult. They keep changing it, and the last time I checked, which has been a long time now, they had to bring the paper with them. They had to make sure that the psychiatrist filled it out, and then the front desk had to sign it. Then my husband had to fill it out. He wasn't going at it, so we haven't availed of that in probably 12 years, for sure.
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Fitzpatrick, I am repeating myself, but I think you are very brave and I have a great deal of respect for you. You have been interacting with the Department of Veterans Affairs for 15 or 17 years, according to what you said earlier. You said that you have made thousands of telephone calls to the department. Last Monday, in the same committee, the deputy minister of Veterans Affairs, Mr. Natynczyk, said he has reduced the response time to two minutes.
I heard that answer two days ago, and I still don't understand it. I even asked Mr. Natynczyk to repeat it. I don't know whether he was referring to one or several sectors. I am sure the department has nevertheless evolved.
Have you received responses in less than two minutes in recent years?
Tina Fitzpatrick
View Tina Fitzpatrick Profile
Tina Fitzpatrick
2021-04-14 16:59
Absolutely not—never. In two minutes...? No. The last time I dealt with the OSI clinic was in 2011. My husband was called and was asked to go to the OSI clinic. There is none in Newfoundland, so he had to go to New Brunswick. He didn't want to go, because he said that he didn't want to go over his trauma. He has seen a psychologist for 17 years now, the same psychologist. He didn't want to go. They insisted that he go to this OSI clinic in New Brunswick.
We both went. We went for five days and we came back. We had no rental car and we stayed in a hotel with no restaurant, so we were told to take cabs everywhere and keep all of our receipts. I came home and did exactly what the girl told me. I kept all the receipts and sent them in. I got a letter back saying that the only receipt that would be paid back was our receipt from the airport to the hotel. That was in 2011.
At that point, I said, “Okay, we're done with you guys.” I hadn't contacted them, maybe for prescription renewals and that kind of thing, but I was done. Then in 2018 I did contact them about the earnings loss benefit, and I was told by Seamus O'Regan in 2018 that I would get an answer. I got an answer two weeks ago—literally two weeks ago.
View Scot Davidson Profile
CPC (ON)
Thank you.
Thanks, Allan, Tina and Sean.
I'm new to this committee. Thanks for allowing me to take the time today.
Tina, the good news is that I pulled the Auditor General's report on call centres, and it is a damning report. It says, “In addition”—including Veterans Affairs—“none of the call centres had [any] service standards on the likelihood that callers would reach an agent or on the accuracy of the information they would receive.” As well, there were absolutely no service standards. In 2019, there were 208,000 calls to Veterans Affairs, and 43,000 were hung up on or unanswered. That is supposed to be there to serve Canadians, and it's clearly not. That is according to the Auditor General's report.
It's frustrating to me as a new MP to have you here as witnesses—and I often wonder, as a new MP, what building all these reports go to because absolutely nothing happens. She's got to be chock full of reports and nothing happens.
Anyway, I'll get to my questions.
I had veterans reach out to me. Actually, I reached out to a couple of veterans. Just so you know, I have a Silver Cross mother who works for me. Her son, Brian Collier, was killed by an IED in Afghanistan in 2010; he made the ultimate sacrifice. I'll say this to Sean, Allan and Tina: We go through monthly—weekly, even—moments, her and I in the office, where there's a breakdown, and there are absolutely no services for her. I would ask one of you to talk about that because I know time is critical here.
I also have a question about how veterans who receive disability benefits from Veterans Affairs Canada are now able to earn up to $25,000 without its impacting their diminished earning capacity. However, veterans who receive disability benefits from Manulife are apparently not allowed to make anything. I'm looking at whether you have any input on that, because I have some veterans in York—Simcoe, my riding, who are very curious about that.
As well, if one of you could speak to.... Veterans are responsible for paying upfront costs for medication to treat injuries they received while in service. They're waiting over a year, I've been told, to be reimbursed, which is having implications on their health and their finances. To me, this is also shameful.
Unfortunately, I only have five minutes. I have many more questions, but I will start there.
Sean Bruyea
View Sean Bruyea Profile
Sean Bruyea
2021-04-14 17:07
Can I go first, Allan?
Mr. Davidson, those are excellent questions, excellent points.
First, with regard to the call centres, that is a perfect example. It seems like such a minor thing, but it's a perfect example of how the bureaucracy prioritizes statistics instead of results. The only concern in Veterans Affairs is how quickly they answer the phone. The concern is not whether it's been resolved, whether there's been follow-up, whether there's been help offered, whether there's going to be a practitioner assigned. That's not the concern. The bureaucracy, just like the case management ratio.... Let's get that case management ratio down, but are we asking whether that veteran actually received true case management? Did they really get help? Did they move on with their life? Did they progress?
In terms of the medication and the upfront costs, I've gone through a number of practitioners who will not deal with Veterans Affairs. It is too burdensome on them. I have to do the paperwork for them. It's absolutely inexcusable. Other practitioners say, “No, I won't see you because I don't want you to have the burden of dealing with it, or me. I just don't want anything to do with Veterans Affairs.” That's a truly sad situation, in my mind.
Allan Hunter
View Allan Hunter Profile
Allan Hunter
2021-04-14 17:10
Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
Many organizations have a service office. This is the second organization in which I'm working as a service officer. What happens typically is that a veteran who is having a difficult time navigating the system reaches out to a service officer and, hopefully, gets the program started. I'm a volunteer, so I do this in my spare time.
Depending on the caseload and the people coming to me—I expect it's going to escalate given the latest we have heard about our female veterans—I typically get the cases of people who have almost given up. Sean mentioned—and he's been an advocate for a long, long time—that he had to reach out to me. I typically get the cases in which people have almost given up. They have said, “Look, I fought with VAC. I asked VAC questions”—as Tina has alluded to—“and I have spent years and years trying to get answers.”
I can tell you from my own personal experience that VAC does a good job of answering many phone calls and many questions in two minutes, but more often than not, the answer is “no” or “start again”. Once again, the service officer's role is to try to keep that veteran on this side of the cliff, if you will, and to make sure that they don't do something to cause self-harm.
You have to remember that the next step for a veteran who's being told “no, no, no” could be substance abuse and all the things that go with that. In my opening statement, I alluded to suicide. When a person takes their life, that's the ultimate failure of a nation and of the organization built for them. Again, I can't stress enough that I absolutely have to thank the countless people across VAC who have helped me to keep these people alive, to keep these people going for one more day, one more phone call. As Tina said, some people just don't have that.
When a 47-year-old man takes his life and leaves seven kids behind, we have a system that needs some things that have not been tried before. We've been talking about this. Sean's been a service officer for decades. I have more than a decade. We're talking about the same things now that we were talking about in my first trip to Ottawa. A service officer is the one who is trying to hold on to that individual, male or female, to say, “Let's try one more thing. Let's try one more day.”
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Natynczyk, could you confirm what I heard about veterans being able to get answers over the telephone in two minutes? Did I hear that right?
Walter Natynczyk
View Walter Natynczyk Profile
Walter Natynczyk
2021-04-12 17:17
Sir, we have found that the efficiency of our call centres has actually improved during the pandemic. With our employees working from home, they have actually been reaching a higher level of productivity than we saw prior to the pandemic. We're learning in this regard. I'll ask Mr. Harris to address this point.
Steven Harris
View Steven Harris Profile
Steven Harris
2021-04-12 17:18
You're right that people get an answer in two minutes. The standard is two minutes, and over 80% of callers get an answer in less than two minutes.
View Luc Desilets Profile
BQ (QC)
If this is the case—and I'm not questioning it—I'm really impressed, because the slowness and the poor quality of the telephone system have been discussed at length in this committee.
There were reports of wait times of up to half a day at times, poor responses and coordination difficulties.
Is this data recorded and available?
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