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Results: 1 - 15 of 1483
View Lloyd Longfield Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Lloyd Longfield Profile
2021-06-18 14:39
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses. It's been a terrific discussion today.
I'm subbing on the committee today. I normally sit on the environment committee.
I see that we also have a University of Guelph alumnus with us today.
Dr. Zacharias, welcome. It's always good to have Guelph in the House. I see that you have your Ph.D. in Zoology from the U of G.
I want to start my questioning with you, Dr. Zacharias.
In terms of the infrastructure needed for the transition to hydrogen as a fuel source in transportation—and here I'd note that I'm also co-chair of the automotive caucus with Mr. May, who's also in this discussion—we have looked at the larger vehicles being powered by hydrogen, versus electric vehicles. Linamar, in Guelph, is working on that transition, but we'll need a network of hydrogen supply for vehicles.
You mentioned a little about infrastructure in your comments. Could you expand on that a bit, and what we would need to do through the work of NRCan?
Mark Zacharias
View Mark Zacharias Profile
Mark Zacharias
2021-06-18 14:40
Thanks for the question.
If hydrogen become more favourable as a technology for medium and heavy-duty vehicles than batteries, then a huge scale-up is going to be required nationwide.
Right now, batteries are winning the battle on light-duty vehicles. Batteries are winning the battle on last-mile delivery vans. They're winning the battle on basically urban transit buses, as you saw with Ottawa's announcement yesterday, and the TTC.
Hydrogen is a kind of long-term transport fuel. It's really probably for semi, class eight-type trucks—and that's probably it right now.
Looking at the U.S. and what the Biden administration is looking at doing to scale up U.S. electric charging networks, I just don't know that it's possible for Canada to do the same with hydrogen, other than for the major Trans-Canada highways at this point. A lot of work needs to be done.
Don Romano
View Don Romano Profile
Don Romano
2021-06-14 11:46
First of all, when it came down to electrification, the government was instrumental in working with the auto manufacturers to build the infrastructure and to bring EVs forward. I can tell you right now we have more EVs than we have demand. Supply is outstripping demand right now. That's a problem. That's a big problem. We're equally concerned with fuel cells. We're on our second version of fuel cells, the Nexo, which is available to you right now, but unfortunately, if you look at the infrastructure for charging, you'll see that outside of Vancouver, there are one or two stations. There are 12,000 gas stations out there. We have a lot of work to do.
However, the first place I would focus is on heavy-duty trucks. I think all my colleagues have said the exact same thing. It just makes sense. We produce heavy-duty trucks, in addition to cars. We sell them into Europe right now. We're actually selling them in California today. Amazon is our first client.
I have been personally in contact with Canadian Tire. We can envision a time when from Quebec City all the way down to Windsor and into Detroit, we could set up a hydrogen highway at the ONroutes all the way through. Simply putting our fuel stations in those locations will create demand for hydrogen trucks, because they just make sense.
They make sense from a brand perspective. You can imagine a Canadian Tire able to explain that they are delivering all their goods and services through hydrogen trucks. We, as well as my competitors, can produce the hydrogen heavy-duty trucks. We simply need that infrastructure, and I think it's just a matter of producing the same requirements for those people who currently provide the gas stations and the retail outlets.
The government came to us and said they had a mandate for us that meant we needed to produce so many electric vehicles, that we needed to reduce GHG by a certain level. If we do the same thing for those that currently provide the fossil fuels and ask them to come together as a village and begin to provide that infrastructure, it's just a matter of time. We'll build it and the customers will come, and we'll see a much better future.
View Richard Cannings Profile
NDP (BC)
Thank you.
I'd like to put that same question to Monsieur Pocard from Ballard. What role can the federal government play to help in building that hydrogen infrastructure? As Mr. Romano said, we have to do this at the same time or we'll get problems with supply and demand.
Monsieur Pocard, could you comment on the role the federal government can play in helping to build that infrastructure?
Nicolas Pocard
View Nicolas Pocard Profile
Nicolas Pocard
2021-06-14 11:49
I think I would echo the comments made by Mr. Romano. I think we need to start looking at those freight corridors and at investing in heavy-duty hydrogen refuelling stations in those freight corridors that are the most important and contribute the most to emissions. I think that's really where the federal government can help.
Also, the building of those hubs is important. If you do a hub for the production of low-carbon hydrogen, it enables you to then generate demand for the application. It's not only for trucks. It can be for buses in the cities. It can also be for rail, at a yard for locomotives.
From that perspective, I think the government could invest in developing those hubs for the production of low-carbon hydrogen, as well as the infrastructure around selected freight corridors, which would really help decarbonization. Ports are another area where you can put together applications using hydrogen and have hydrogen refuelling, like some of the projects we've been developing now at the port of Vancouver.
View Bob Zimmer Profile
CPC (BC)
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, guests.
I have just one question, Mr. Romano. You talked about incentives, mainly around infrastructure around renewable energy. I have a big question, which I'm sure you understand affects a lot of Canadians. It is about the term “affordability”. We've heard the term many times before when talking about the taxpayer not wanting to subsidize certain sectors and certain industries. We've certainly heard that around the natural resource side of things.
When do you see renewables becoming self-sufficient to the point they don't need a big government subsidy, either via insurance or for purchasing the vehicle or by providing funds for infrastructure? When do you see our getting to the tipping point where the taxpayer isn't paying the bill?
Don Romano
View Don Romano Profile
Don Romano
2021-06-14 12:09
I think it really has to do with the infrastructure. Again, we have more supply than we have demand. I can deliver an electric vehicle today, and with subsidies, I can deliver it in Quebec for under $30,000. Affordability isn't the issue.
The concern comes down to the charging infrastructure and the range. We're able to tackle the range. With our Kona EV, we now get over 400 kilometres, so range is becoming less of an issue. However, the charging is a concern. Over three million Canadians still live in apartments and don't have that infrastructure. Once we have that in place and we start getting our volume over the 50% mark—when over half of the vehicles we're producing are electric—I believe we'll be at the inflection point and we will have bridged the gap between the cost of an electric vehicle and that of an ICE vehicle. We're probably five years away.
View Yvonne Jones Profile
Lib. (NL)
View Yvonne Jones Profile
2021-06-14 12:15
Okay. That's great. Thanks.
We talked a lot about the infrastructure and the availability of infrastructure to support hydrogen. Is this something that private companies would be taking on and doing more of themselves, or is it profitable for them to be investing right now into the hydrogen industry?
I know it's a direction we have to go. I'm just concerned about the ability for some of these companies to do this and to meet the potential that is out there for this development and the investment that's required. What would be your thoughts on it?
Jacques Roy
View Jacques Roy Profile
Jacques Roy
2021-06-14 12:18
Thanks.
I don't run gas stations, but there is one in Quebec. It's operated by a distributor called Harnois Énergies. In terms of cost efficiency, it's a very expensive investment. The only reason they did it was that there were partners who actually invested and helped reduce not only the cost of the infrastructure but also the cost of the hydrogen sold at the pump. Also, to be clear, this station actually produces its own hydrogen, so the electrolysis is done on site, which is one way to do it if you have enough volume, enough scale, but it's not the only way, actually, to operate. Eventually you could have gas distributors who would deliver hydrogen through stations, but at this time it was felt that producing on site was the better solution.
In terms of profitability, we are very far from that. It's like an act of faith right now. You have to actually demonstrate the use of hydrogen, and for that you need those refuelling stations, like a chicken and egg situation. If you don't have the stations, then people will simply not buy the products.
At this time in Quebec, the provincial government has acquired 50 fuel-cell cars produced by Toyota, and the demonstration is being carried out, trying to understand how the cars are operating and doing a cost-benefit analysis of using those cars at this time.
View Greg McLean Profile
CPC (AB)
When you produce this charger, when it's going through the production process, you have copper, you have aluminum. You have all kinds of building that happens. You have construction. You have cables. Everything has to be built. All of these have a CO2 footprint to get towards the location. It's the front-end CO2 expense, if you will.
Do you have any comment on that?
Don Romano
View Don Romano Profile
Don Romano
2021-06-14 12:24
Understood. Yes, I think it's short term. I think that in the long term, the net impact of putting infrastructure together is going to be a lower carbon footprint and eventually no carbon footprint.
You're absolutely right that in the short term trucks running on gas will be delivering the material necessary to put those chargers in place, but over time those chargers are going to be producing electricity, hopefully from clean energy, that is going to result in a better, lower-carbon footprint for the country.
View Bryan May Profile
Lib. (ON)
View Bryan May Profile
2021-06-14 12:25
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to go back to Mr. Romano for part of my question time.
First of all, it's good to see you. As many on this call know, I co-chair the Liberal auto caucus, and it's great to see a manufacturer on this study, because I think it's an important perspective that we need to address.
I think you're right: I think we have seen a massive evolution in automaking in just the past five years. I remember in my early days as an elected member of Parliament listening to manufacturers explain to us in the auto caucus why this isn't going to work and why electric vehicles are not the future. How quickly that has changed. A lot of that is market driven, but a lot of it is also the reality that we have to do our part to manage climate change.
One of the big issues that we had early on with electric vehicles—and it comes back to infrastructure—was the proprietary nature of charging stations. I know there's been some work to help alleviate that situation, but I'll pose this question as a hypothetical. Imagine having a gas engine vehicle and pulling up to a gas station and realizing that you can't pump gas at that gas station because it has a triangular nozzle versus a hexagonal nozzle. To me, that's how silly this problem is.
Can you speak to that a bit? Has the industry solved that problem? When it comes to hydrogen, is that also going to be a problem, or have we learned from that issue?
Don Romano
View Don Romano Profile
Don Romano
2021-06-14 12:27
We have a standard for hydrogen. We do not have a standard for electric vehicles that has been adopted by all manufacturers, but there are adapters that are bridging that problem.
I think the bigger issue right now is that we don't.... The people providing the charging infrastructure all require sign-ups. People have to enrol, which means that if you're driving down the highway and you want to use a ChargePoint, you have to be a ChargePoint customer. You can't take a Visa card and swipe it and get your charge. That becomes just one more obstacle limiting the adoption of EVs. Eventually, we need to have all chargers operate in a fashion similar to a gas station pump, where any credit card we use, any bank card we use, can be utilized to charge those cars.
That just isn't the case today. Right now, there are no standards out there for that type of service. I think part of the building of the infrastructure will require those standards to be put in place.
View Jeremy Patzer Profile
CPC (SK)
Thank you very much.
Mr. Romano, I'm going to go back to you, but before I begin I want to read something here from a study by UC Davis down in California. They did a study regarding the impact of the additional weights on roads. It said:
The damage analysis for an example waste facility access road modeled for only 500- to 2,000-lb. increases in the weights of waste-hauling trucks from conversion to natural gas indicated (a) that for fully loaded inbound trucks, the 500-lb. vehicle weight increase reduced the life of pavement overlays by approximately 5 percent and (b) that there was an approximately 13 percent reduction in life with the 2,000-lb. vehicle weight increase.
The reason I'm asking is that in Saskatchewan there is a tax now on EVs that people are all up in arms about. The reason they are doing that is to make up for the loss of fuel tax. We know the fuel tax is used for road maintenance and upkeep as well.
As we are shifting to EVs—industry is saying we're going this way—we know that there's going to be a disproportionate impact on the infrastructure, yet we're losing all this tax revenue. Who's going to pay for the road maintenance and infrastructure upkeep if we lose that tax base?
Don Romano
View Don Romano Profile
Don Romano
2021-06-14 12:38
All I can tell you is that I believe we are at the eight-track tape phase of electrification. We're not even at the cassette, let alone the SiriusXM streaming phase.
The batteries are going to get smaller and lighter. Companies out there are currently working on solid-state batteries, which are significantly smaller and pack a lot more energy. I can't answer that question directly. I can just tell you that the direction we're headed at this point, as we do with all technology, is to become more efficient, smaller and lighter.
Today the EVs we produce are relatively small. In terms of the example you gave of one of my competitors, I just can't answer the question on that particular vehicle and the weight that it has relative to its combustion engine model.
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