//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1240)[English]I have to go fast with my time here, so maybe I can have just a one-sentence answer, first from Mr. Mendes. You've spoken about supply chains. Are you supportive of measures like the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, which essentially creates a reverse onus that presumes that goods coming out of East Turkestan involve slave labour unless proven otherwise? Would you be supportive of those kinds of measures?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaCivil and human rightsDistribution and service industriesForced labourMultinationalsTrade agreementsUyghur62439566243957PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleErrol P.MendesErrol P.MendesErrolP--MendesInterventionMr. Errol P. Mendes: (1240)[English] I would, and I would actually make a reference to the fact that now, under the Canada-U.S.-Mexico agreement, we should basically be following the U.S. If it's done under the agreement, then we should be doing the same thing.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaCivil and human rightsDistribution and service industriesForced labourMultinationalsTrade agreementsUyghur6243958GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1330)[English]I'm just trying to read through that. So it does carry through into CUSMA. Basically, if you wanted to put a tariff on, say, Kentucky Bourbon, or something like that, it would not be an option in your toolbox at this point in time?AluminumCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Customs tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradePandemicTrade agreements6233549SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1330)[English]Just to be clear, this is not a part of the CUSMA agreement. It's not part of the obligations contained in the formal international treaty that we've agreed to with the U.S. and Mexico. This does mean there is a certain amount of flexibility with respect to the particular statement that was issued back in May of 2019.From our perspective, I think it really depends on what kind of action the U.S. takes. If the U.S. were to take some kind of action that was viewed as being consistent with that statement, I think we would have to think about what kind of reaction we would have. We would likely want to stay within the context of that understanding, recognizing that “aluminum-containing products”, for example, is a broad category.If the U.S. acts outside of the constraints of that agreement or statement that was made back in May of 2019, I think we would certainly have more flexibility in how we might want to respond.AluminumCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Customs tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradePandemicTrade agreements623355062335516233552RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC): (1355)[English]It's not a lot of time.Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here. It's great to see colleagues.I wanted to talk a little bit about the economic impact. I know that with the original CUSMA we begged and pleaded to get these economic impact studies. The Prime Minister didn't make them available until after the deal was done. One of the disturbing things I saw in them was on page 61. It basically said that automotive would be taking a $1.5-billion hit compared to the old NAFTA.Mr. Verheul, you said in your opening statement that it's so important that Canada maintain its ability to be “an attractive investment environment”. Two-thirds of our income comes from trade, and 3.5 million jobs come from trade. I'm really concerned about the uncertainty we have on the implementation of CUSMA and the effects of COVID on the supply chains. I'm not an MP from Quebec, but I think everybody knows that the federal government sole-sourced and ordered two jets from Bombardier Aerospace recently. Immediately after CUSMA came into effect, Bombardier Recreational Products announced they'll be opening a brand new plant. But, Steve, it's not in Canada; it's in Mexico. They're investing $185 million and creating up to 1,000 jobs, but not in Canada, not in Quebec. It's in Mexico.I was wondering what the Liberal government has done and what kinds of resources it has given you, as we move through this implementation, to make sure that the message gets out that Canada is an attractive place to do business. What have they done to decrease the uncertainty with these supply chains? With any new investment, manufacturers are going to be looking at how they're going to get these products back and forth across the border. What has the government asked you to do immediately, as CUSMA is coming into effect, to allow that to happen?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradePandemicTrade agreements6233602623360362336046233605623360662336076233608Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1355)[English] With respect to implementation, I think we have been doing a lot of work, a lot of consultation, with industry moving forward to ensure that the change from the existing NAFTA to the new NAFTA, or CUSMA, can happen as smoothly as possible. However, I think probably even more importantly, we have been looking at a number of steps to take to ensure that companies in Canada understand how they can take advantage of the changes under the new agreement, and how we can ensure that we can strengthen our position with respect to the economic relationship between Canada and the U.S., and Mexico as well. A lot of our work through the trade commissioner service has been dedicated to trying to help those companies reach those kinds of achievements.I want to turn briefly to my colleague Eric Walsh, who is responsible for U.S. trade relations; he might want to add a few comments.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradePandemicTrade agreements62336096233610ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1355)[English]Just before that, Mr. Walsh, I know many companies wanted CUSMA to come into force after January 1, 2021, because of COVID and other factors. What does that delay...? How is having CUSMA implemented now affecting the automotive companies? What's it doing to their certainty levels? Again, I don't want to see this bleed continue in the automotive and manufacturing sector where they think it's better to build in the United States or Mexico because they don't have these issues about supply chains, etc.Automotive industryCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradePandemicTrade agreements6233611SteveVerheulJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1400)[English] That was clearly a strong concern of ours, when the U.S. was pressing to have the agreement come into effect sooner rather than later. We know that companies across Canada are facing enough challenges dealing with COVID-19. We were, at least initially, reluctant to have them have to adapt to new rules under the new agreement, so we've been working closely with them to try to make sure this process is as smooth as possible. In particular with respect to the auto sector, there are a number of provisions that allow for gradual implementation, with a number of flexibilities in recognition of the challenges we're facing now. We have various flexibilities that would delay the coming into force of some of these elements.Automotive industryCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradePandemicTrade agreements6233613Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai (Surrey Centre, Lib.): (1400)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you, Mr. Verheul.As the member of Parliament for Surrey Centre, along with my colleague, the member of Parliament for Surrey-Newton, I know that Surrey is a big trading hub, whether it's ports or borders. Logistics companies have headquarters here and have a huge impact on our local economy.I first want to thank you for having concluded CUSMA prior to the pandemic and having it ratified. I think it would be a much more difficult task with protectionist views heightened during a pandemic, so we are fortunate to have it in place. However, due to the pandemic, we've still had over one-third drop in trade between the two countries. I think it's roughly 35% respectively either way, along with toughening the borders in terms of crossing times and limited border crossings.How difficult do you think it will be to restart supply chains and restart that trade generator that we were before? Would CUSMA be beneficial in that, considering the problems the U.S. is having, particularly with some of its Asian partners?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradePandemicTrade agreements62336176233618623361962336206233621Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1400)[English]I think we are certainly doing a lot of work to determine how quickly we can move back to as close to normal as we can get in terms of the trading relationships. I think the impact that you cited with respect to the trade going back and forth.... Those numbers are higher than the ones I have seen. I think we have been managing to maintain supply chains, by and large, particularly with the U.S. and with Mexico going forward. I think there will probably be further pressure on us to narrow the supply chains to some degree—in other words, putting more pressure on North America as a supply chain in itself—and the relationship with the rest of the world will depend on us making efforts to maintain those supply chains as well. I'd like to see if Eric Walsh has something further to add on this supply chain issue. He's been working on these issues more closely than I have.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradePandemicTrade agreements623362262336236233624RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreEricWalshEricWalshEric-WalshInterventionMr. Eric Walsh (Director General, North America Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1400)[English] Yes, I'm happy to jump in. Thank you for inviting me here today. I think we can say that both Canada and the U.S. are very close partners and part of these complex, integrated, reciprocal supply chains that go both ways across the border, and it's in both of our interests to allow these supplies and people to continue crossing the border. We've seen this with the situation with PPE, personal protective equipment, and all the related COVID materials. We had difficulty accessing inputs and raw materials, and that's really slowed down production. Logistics has been another factor in the supply chain disruptions, so reinforcing our strong relationships with the U.S., as well as Mexico, is really important to Canada's ongoing prosperity. The integration of the North American production platform, especially in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, is equally important.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentInternational tradePandemicTrade agreements623362562336266233627SteveVerheulRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Surrey—Newton, Lib.): (1410)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you to all of my friends. Welcome back to Ottawa.Mr. Verheul, both Randeep and I come from British Columbia, so we are fully aware of the impact of the ongoing softwood lumber dispute with the United States. Right now, Canadian parties still have pending WTO and NAFTA challenges to the Department of Commerce's underlying countervailing and anti-dumping duties. Could you tell us how the ratification of CUSMA will impact these challenges? Overall, can you give us some context with regard to how the new agreement might work to de-escalate the ongoing dispute between the U.S. and Canada?Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradePandemicSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements623365562336566233657Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1410)[English]As you well know, we've had a long-standing irritant with the U.S. with respect to softwood lumber. Given the most recent actions they've taken to reimpose tariffs, both anti-dumping and countervailing duty tariffs, against our softwood lumber producers, we have been challenging those measures under NAFTA and at the WTO. We have met with a number of successes in those efforts. We had been hoping that those kinds of successes would bring the U.S. back to the negotiating table so that we could resolve this for the longer term, but we have not seen a willingness on the U.S. side to advance that.With respect to the new CUSMA, I think it's important to remember that any kind of softwood agreement is outside of that agreement. It was not envisioned by that agreement, nor was it envisioned by NAFTA. When we have the U.S. pursuing anti-dumping and countervailing duty actions against our softwood lumber producers, they have a legitimate right to do that under the trade remedy provisions of both NAFTA and CUSMA. We have the right to challenge those. In most cases, we've successfully challenged those measures, but the decision to try to negotiate something out requires agreement on the side of both parties. We are ready to go to the negotiating table at any point in time to resolve this issue. We think it causes damages on both sides of the border. It increases costs, particularly in housing in the U.S., and is totally illegitimate in terms of the application. We're ready to go back to the negotiating table at any point in time. However, we have not yet seen any willingness on the U.S. side to do that.Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradePandemicSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements623365862336596233660SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1410)[English]The COVID-19 pandemic has shown us how fragile the global supply chain can be and how that can impact Canada. With regard to manufacturing, can you explain how the new CUSMA might help bring in some of the manufacturing jobs that left Canada over the past few decades?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradeManufacturing industryPandemicTrade agreements6233661SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1410)[English] Aside from the kinds of modernization gains we made in the new NAFTA, particularly with respect to goods moving more easily back and forth across the border, the emphasis is on regulatory reform and on making all of these processes more modern and more simplistic.Going forward, we think there will be a greater emphasis on supply chains operating within North America, and that is the direction we're looking at. When we take a sector like auto, for example, there are stronger rules of origin requirements, so that the parts, the products and the assembly of the automobiles have to be done on the basis of predominantly North American parts and North American inputs.We have this situation with respect to other products as well, so I think we will see more of an emphasis on production within the North American region than we've seen in the past. We certainly expect that, as a result, more jobs in these areas will come back to North America and back to Canada. That was a major objective in the negotiations.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19International tradeManufacturing industryPandemicTrade agreements623366262336636233664SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDerekBurneyDerek-BurneyInterventionMr. Derek Burney: (1425)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable committee members. Good afternoon and thank you for the invitation. If I may, in my remarks I will go a bit beyond the specific topics and offer a little more of a global perspective.First of all, I believe that the most serious problem on trade for Canada in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic is that the world is turning inwards and becoming a hotbed for protectionism. The U.S., unfortunately, is as reluctant to lead globally on trade as it has been on the pandemic. The major powers are competing for power, leaving middle powers like Canada dependent on multilateral institutions like the WTO, which have been weakened by a lack of clear leadership and any real will to work together. By refusing to name panellists to the WTO’s dispute settlement mechanism, the United States has severely restricted the institution’s ability to safeguard the rule of law on trade.Due to the pandemic, self-reliance and self-interest are in the ascendency. Global trade has already seen employment, production, prices and supply chains sharply disrupted, and there is now a new public health rationale for constraints on trade, under the guise of national security. A “might is right” trend is taking hold as countries are compelled to fend more for themselves. What should Canada do in this environment? First of all, now that the USMCA is operational, we need to defend vigorously and, where possible, advance access to the U.S., our most vital market, invoking the dispute settlement mechanism retained from NAFTA without hesitation and using selective retaliation when necessary. For Canada, the USMCA is a respectful salvage more than a platform for economic growth, but it should help check lunges into protectionism. Because bilateral trade is roughly in balance, there is no reason for Canada to become a passive punching bag for U.S. protectionists and mercantilists. Arbitrary tariffs once again on Canadian aluminum exports will hurt American producers and American consumers more than anybody. This is a message that should be delivered fervently to Congress and at various state levels in the United States. We should not hesitate to retaliate.Similarly, chronic complaints from Senator Schumer, the majority Democrat leader in the Senate, about Canadian dairy policy should be rebuffed. Canada made modest concessions on dairy in the NAFTA renegotiation and should abide by them, but nothing more. Nonetheless, these attacks are a harbinger of what to expect should the administration change in November. We should stand firm. The best antidote to American protectionism, in my view, would be a robust, V-shaped economic recovery—the sooner, the better. Second, because 75% of our trade is with the United States, diversification has always been desirable. Now it's essential. For it to become real, however, we first need complete free trade within Canada, a quest over many decades that has delivered more solemn communiques than substantive results. Most popular in western Canada, this effort will only succeed with firm leadership from Ottawa and if economic common sense prevails over narrow provincialism, notably in Quebec and Ontario. According to the IMF, liberating Canadian internal markets would yield a 4% increase in GDP. That's much more than is expected from the USMCA.Third, free trade across Canada would also give us greater leverage and better access from other preferential trade agreements, which are the best immediate prospects for diversification: CETA with the EU, the Canada–Korea Free Trade Agreement, and the mini-TPP, which affords significant new potential in Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Vietnam, among others. Fourth, we should move deliberately to conclude a bilateral trade deal with a post-Brexit Britain, complementing, where possible, the terms negotiated in CETA, but mindful as well of the terms being negotiated by Britain with the United States. Canada enjoys more than a 2:1 trade balance with Britain. I suspect that their negotiators will seek to make up what they may lose from the European Union by gaining enhanced access specifically from the U.S., Canada and Australia. Our negotiators should be determined to get at least as much in terms of increased access as we are prepared to give. That is the goal for any trade negotiation.(1430) Fifth, Canada should actively explore the prospects for broader trade with India, despite the difficulties posed by the high degree of regulations and protectionism in the Indian economy. This initiative can best be conducted on the basis of careful preparation and consultations, not by high-level junkets.Sixth, even more daunting are the prospects with China, where relations are completely hamstrung today by the deadlock over Madame Meng and the two Michaels. There is much not to like about China's behaviour these days on trade and many other issues. The way supplies needed for the pandemic were hoarded before China released initial data on the virus and were then sold for huge profits should elicit worldwide scorn, if not harsh penalties.Today, we are unwilling to counter discriminatory trade actions against Canadian agricultural exports, even though China has a 3:1 trade advantage over us, lest it harm those in detention. We should not be reluctant to retaliate. We must also be more deliberate in joining sanctions against China for its repressive moves against Hong Kong. Canada should, like Britain, extend a welcome hand to Hong Kong refugees. We should also nimbly expand relations with Taiwan.Most importantly, we need to find a way out of the corner we have painted ourselves in, if not by an exchange of detainees, then by other means. We have become a hapless pawn caught in a dispute between two giants. Asserting self-righteous points of principle may make us feel better, but they will not break the current stalemate. We must deal with the world as it is and not as we would naively like it to be.We cannot isolate or immunize ourselves from what will soon be the world's largest economy. Mutual self-interest obliges us to gauge prudently and cautiously the prospects for pragmatic, albeit limited, relationship, proceeding, as the adage about how porcupines mate stipulates, very carefully.Burney Investment GroupCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaCOVID-19IndiaInternational relationsInternational tradePandemicTrade agreementsUnited KingdomWorld Trade Organization6233690Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDerekBurneyMarkAgnewMark-AgnewInterventionMr. Mark Agnew (Senior Director, International Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce): (1430)[English] Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members, for the invitation to speak here at committee today.Although it's quite common for stakeholders to reference the critical or timely nature of a given study, I think this one really is. International trade is critical to Canada, and our relationships with both the U.S. and U.K. are critical as well.I want to touch on three issues in my opening remarks this afternoon. The first point is that COVID-19’s impact on international trade has been substantial, and it certainly has brought into focus the need to strengthen supply chain resiliency. I think we all know and accept this. I think most commentary has missed the point that supply chain resiliency is not monolithic—each sector of the economy, and maybe each company, has different needs in regard to what that looks like for their supply chain circumstances.Also quite importantly, we are a market-oriented economy. Governments generally don't own supply chains; instead, they incentivize private sector behaviour and create the conditions within which businesses operate. Our approach to supply chains needs to ensure that we have the interests of consumers and businesses in mind, in terms not only of their being able to supply inputs and products that we need both in the country and into the country, but also supporting exporters. It goes both ways.It's also much more than just the production of physical goods. Services across different modes of supply play a critical role in supply chains, whether you're talking about the upstream parts, such as research and development, and engineering and design, or about after-sales servicing of equipment, or transportation and logistics.This week the chamber released our position statement on supply chain resiliency, which I have shared with committee staff. Hopefully, members have had a chance to look at it in advance. In short, we think governments need to take a holistic approach in how domestic and international policy is used to support supply chain resiliency.The document is quite long, so I'll just draw your attention to a few of the international tools we think need to be a critical part of the effort. The first we're calling “security of supply agreements”. We've seen that export controls on medical equipment have proven to be a major problem during the early days of the pandemic. We're asking the government to take a positive approach with our most trusted allies and look at a way to circumscribe and tighten up how countries are allowed to use export restrictions. We're not naive and certainly realize that there would only be a very small subset of countries that we'd be able to do this with. We commend the work that the government has done through the Ottawa Group and think that this might be a way to take that work, talking about transparency and time-limited and being proportionate, and take that to the next level in a tangible way.Second, there also needs to be a much greater focus on the issue of industrial subsidies. This has been a long-standing problem since before the pandemic, but it's going to get worse as governments around the world throw huge sums of cash at their domestic industries. This is going to tilt the field against Canadian companies even more so than is already the case, and we certainly need to reign in the excesses of other countries by using multilateral or bilateral tools to do that.The third aspect of supply chain resiliency is digital trade and e-commerce. As more activities head online, we need to make sure that our trade rules are relevant to the economy of 2020, whether that's cross-border data flows or trade facilitation measures that will support e-commerce.The second point I want to talk about briefly is the United States. We very much welcome the entry into force of CUSMA and thank negotiators like Steve and his team who have done phenomenal work to get that deal over the finish line. However, our main message here is that it's too early to get out the proverbial mission accomplished banner, given that we have a number of other outstanding trade issues with the United States. The spectre of so-called national security tariffs on both metals and electrical coils looms large once again. We are steadfastly opposed to the United States using them and are working closely with our U.S. official counterparts and are calling on the government to be active on that issue. Additionally, we are without a softwood lumber agreement at the moment. We hope that the resolution of CUSMA will create bandwidth to be able to pick up this issue again and bring it to a resolution.The last piece I want to touch on in my opening remarks is our relationship with the United Kingdom. In the absence of further developments, Canadian companies are generally now operating on the assumption that the U.K. will leave its current transition status with the EU as of the end of 2020, and that it will enact its so-called global tariff regime in January 2021, which was announced earlier this year.(1435) This means fundamentally that the clock is ticking. Given that discussions have been happening for some time between the U.K. and Canada, our view is that we need to conclude the efforts to transpose the CETA into a bilateral agreement at the earliest possible opportunity and begin the necessary implementation processes, especially here in Canada.Being fully self-aware, I know this view puts the Canadian Chamber of Commerce in a slightly different spot from some others, but our position is informed by several factors.One, companies have already faced more than enough supply chain disruptions in the last number of months. Let's give companies the certainty they need and ensure that they won't face tariffs on their exports to the U.K., potentially as of January next year.The second piece is that, based on the media reporting we're seeing on what the European Commission has said about the status of the U.K.-EU discussions, they might not be finalized until October. That certainly cuts very close to the end of the year, and given our own parliamentary timings, if we decide to wait until we have complete certainty about the outcome of the U.K.-EU discussions, that doesn't leave much time for businesses to plan, especially in the COVID-19 context.The third factor is that landing a bilateral agreement with the U.K. based on the CETA positions us quite well to take the trade relationship to the next level. Out of the 28 countries in the EU, the U.K. is the one where we can probably have the most advanced trade relationship possible. This includes, for example, deepening services, regulatory work and digital trade rules. It also sends an important signal for Canada to maintain that we are the only G7 country to have comprehensive FTAs with all other G7 countries.The Canadian Chamber of Commerce represents Canada at a number of global business forums, and that's a point we're always very proud to make when we are speaking to our global counterparts when representing Canada abroad. I'll stop there, but I'm certainly happy to take any questions from committee members in the Q and A rounds.Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Chamber of CommerceCOVID-19Electronic commerceGovernment assistanceInternational tradeMedical and assistive devicesPandemicTrade agreementsUnited Kingdom6233716Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMathewWilsonMathew-WilsonInterventionMr. Mathew Wilson (Senior Vice-President, Policy and Government Relations, Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters): (1440)[English] Good afternoon. Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee, for inviting me to participate in today's discussion. It is my pleasure to be here on behalf of Canada's 90,000 manufacturers and exporters, and our association's 2,500 direct members, to discuss COVID-19 and Canada's manufacturing and exporting sector. Our members cover all sizes of companies from all regions of the country and all industrial sectors. We represent the majority of Canada's manufacturing output as well as value-added exports.I'll keep my commentary short so there can be more discussion at the end. However, it is important to make a few critical comments to provide context and background.First, manufacturers have been critical in the country's response to COVID-19. Not only have domestic manufacturers made many of the goods necessary for the response; they have also continued to operate and employ millions of Canadians. Despite this, the sector has been very hard hit from the crisis. Output declined roughly 30% over March and April. We are not expecting a full recovery until well into 2022. While the impacts have been bad, it could have been much worse without strong actions by government. The wage subsidy and other liquidity measures were literally lifesavers for our members. With the crisis far from over, it is critical that these measures continue to exist and be adjusted based on economic conditions for the foreseeable future.Second, while manufacturing continued to operate and global supply chains were maintained with only minor disruptions, the lower output meant a corresponding decline in Canada's trade activity. The 30% decline in output led to a decline in merchandise export activity of roughly 33%, and imports of 27%. The most impacted sectors, however, were among the largest in the country—automotive and aerospace in particular. The decline in imports and exports was widespread amongst our trading partners, but obviously of higher value with the U.S., given our volume of trade with that country. Notably, however, Canada did witness a massive spike of 35% of imports from China as consumers increased spending on electronics in particular.Third, it is critically important to create a plan to move the country from recovery to growth and prosperity by harnessing the strength of Canada's manufacturing sector through a comprehensive strategy. The focus of the strategy must be on driving investment to improve global competitiveness for long-term economic growth. Canada faced structural economic problems of underinvestment, soaring trade deficits and poor productivity before COVID-19 hit that must be addressed now.For the purpose of this committee, there are several concrete actions that we believe the government should take on to help Canada's exporters. One, work to implement all aspects of the new CUSMA, especially the chapter on competitiveness, which aims to increase co-operation between the countries to deal with global trade cheats and unfair trading practices of third countries. Two, launch a made-in-Canada branding exercise at home and in international markets to boost awareness of Canadian capabilities and technologies with the goal of boosting sales and exports of Canadian-made products. Three, support SME export potential by expanding investment in government export concierge programs and private peer mentoring networks, which are critical to getting companies going internationally.Finally, before making a few remarks about Canada-U.K. trade, I would like to note that we believe there will be some shifting in global supply chains moving forward and increased opportunity for Canada. This shift will be to protect supply chains and to meet increasing demands for consumers to buy local. However, these opportunities will flow to the locations that provide the greatest returns. Canada has a huge advantage in access to many foreign markets through FTAs, as well as a skilled labour pool that is world class. However, as a small and trade-exposed country, if our domestic business environment is not world class, investment will continue to flow to other markets and Canada will miss out on these current opportunities. Manufacturing investment in particular has been drifting downward since the early 2000s, which has stalled overall exports in the country and seen ballooning trade deficits. This trend must be reversed.The possibility of a Canada-U.K. FTA is fully supported by CME. At nearly $20 billion a year in exports, the U.K. was Canada's third-largest export market in 2019, behind only the U.S. and China. While gold accounted for 71% of this total, other exported products totalled over $5.5 billion, including more than $4 billion in manufactured goods. As such, even without gold, the U.K. is Canada's sixth-largest export market. Given this, extending the terms of the existing CETA agreement to the U.K. would be logical. However, we must ensure through negotiations that Canadian exporters are gaining an actual advantage over other countries who do not sign new FTAs with the U.K. We understand that the U.K. is aggressively pursuing new FTAs with many markets and offering up broad-based tariff concessions to many countries. In some cases, these tariff concessions are being made even before there's a trade deal in place. Trade agreements should be about mutual gain and benefit. If there is no unique benefit to Canada in exchange for opening our market, it undermines the value of the FTA.Thank you again for inviting me to participate today. I look forward to the discussion.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Manufacturers and ExportersCOVID-19International tradeManufacturing industryPandemicTrade agreementsUnited Kingdom6233733Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKenNeumannKen-NeumannInterventionMr. Ken Neumann (National Director for Canada, National Office, United Steelworkers): (1445)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee.The United Steelworkers thanks CIIT for the invitation to participate in the committee's study of the impact of COVID-19 on Canadian international trade relationships, with a focus on the United States and the United Kingdom.The United Steelworkers represents more than 800,000 members across North America, including 225,000 members in Canada, in virtually every sector of the economy. We are the primary private sector union representing workers in trade-exposed sectors and regions. We also have a strong relationship with the trade union movement in the U.K., specifically through our partnership with Unite the Union and our global union, Workers Uniting.As such, trade policy and trade agreements are of fundamental importance to our union and to our membership. The massive drop in trade between the U.S. and Canada, with exports down by 41% in April alone, has had an immediate impact on our members, particularly those in trade-exposed sectors such as manufacturing. At the height of the economic shutdown, about 15% of our entire membership was on a layoff of some type, including about 20% of members in manufacturing.The COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted fundamental problems with the international trading system and our reliance on global supply chains for essential products. We must refocus the entire trade system to one that benefits both the workers and the environment, rather than one fixated on obtaining the cheapest possible products regardless of the conditions of production. However, we are currently focused on the United States' possible reimposition of section 232 tariffs on aluminum, the risk posed by unfair trade on the steel industry, as well as the ongoing softwood lumber dispute. We are disappointed that these issues were not fully resolved prior to the negotiations and the implementation of CUSMA, which came into force on July 1. While there are positive aspects of CUSMA, specifically the labour provisions demanded by trade unions and the U.S. Democratic Party, the section 232 side letter legitimizes the once-rare national security tariffs and curtails our options for counteractions in the event the United States reimposes the tariffs. The possibility of 10% tariffs on aluminum products threatens the 15,000 direct and 41,000 indirect jobs in Canada's aluminum sector, including 5,000 workers represented by the Steelworkers.The United Steelworkers emphasizes that Canadian aluminum does not pose a national security threat to the United States, nor has there been any significant surge in exports. This assertion is backed by The Aluminum Association, which represents the majority of producers in the United States. Compared with 2017, exports in the first quarter of 2020 declined by 12%, and are up only about 3% compared with the annual average of 2017, the last full year without any major trade disruptions.The cancellation of the original section 232 tariffs in May 2019, along with the end of the ABI lockout in the spring of 2019, led to the resumption of more normal trade patterns between our two countries. The drop in the U.S. aluminum prices is largely caused by the significant drop in demand as a result of COVID-related shutdowns, particularly in the auto sector. Massive growth in the Chinese production over the past 20 years remains the biggest threat, increasing from 1.9 million metric tons in 1999 to 31 million metric tons in 2019.Ultimately, Canada must strongly defend community-sustaining jobs in the aluminum sector. That means that if the U.S. does reimpose section 232 tariffs on Canadian aluminum, Canada must impose retaliatory tariffs on a wide range of U.S. products, not only on aluminum. If the U.S. is not prepared to play by the rules, Canada should not be limited by the agreement signed last May. Canada must also stand up for the 22,000 direct and 100,000 indirect jobs in the steel industry. Since this pandemic, we have seen a 20% overall drop of steel mill exports to the U.S. in May. This makes it even more important to grow the domestic market for Canadian steel. We could start by making sure that we use only Canadian-made steel products on government infrastructure projects like bridges, energy projects, transit and buildings.(1450) Canada's steel is a very low carbon and global standard, so it is the green alternative to foreign steel. However, we should also implement a carbon border adjustment so that we're not placing our steelmakers at an unfair disadvantage compared with other countries that do not price carbon. Furthermore, workers and unions should also be considered as part of the domestic industry under Canadian trade law. This should allow trade unions to initiate trade cases in order to protect the domestic workers.Canada's softwood lumber exports remain at risk despite our maintaining NAFTA's chapter 19 dispute settlement mechanism in the CUSMA. These provisions are not enough to prevent future duties on softwood lumber. Steep declines in forest product exports—minus 18% in May—combined with the volatile trade situation with the U.S. adds insult to injury to the Canadian forestry sector beset by declining prices.Workers in British Columbia have been particularly hard hit by these multiple crises as thousands of workers have lost jobs and communities have been decimated by the effects of trade disputes, low prices and COVID-19.Looking to the United Kingdom, United Steelworkers contend that any post-Brexit trade agreements must be based on strengthening workers' rights, and trade of products must be made in decent working conditions in both countries. We stand with our U.K. trade union allies in their opposition to the U.K.'s entrance into the CPTPP.Along with our partner union, Unite, we support a trade policy that includes binding labour rights and strong trade safeguards for vulnerable industries and one that does not include investor-state dispute settlement provisions, or diminish the right to regulate.Overall, the COVID pandemic has laid bare fundamental problems with the international trade system and our reliance on global trade chains for essential products. We need a broad vision and policies to ensure that Canada has the capacity to produce essential goods domestically in a manner that improves the quantity and quality of employment and allows us to meet our climate obligations.Most importantly, we need to stand up to protect jobs in the aluminum sector and to ensure that the new CUSMA does not lead to continued erosion of the Canada-U.S. trade relationship.Thank you for the opportunity. Mark Rowlinson and I are happy to answer any questions you may have.Aluminum industryCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Customs tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradePandemicSoftwood lumber industrySteel industryTrade agreementsUnited KingdomUnited Steelworkers Union62337456233746Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekClaireCiteauClaire-CiteauInterventionMs. Claire Citeau (Executive Director, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance): (1545)[English]Thank you for having me today.As you know, CAFTA is the voice of Canadian agri-food exporters, representing the 90% of farmers who depend on trade and the ranchers, producers, processors and agri-food exporters who want to grow the economy through better access to international markets. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today with you about the state of global trade and what the road ahead may look like. The year 2020 was supposed to be a big year for trade for us with the ratification of CUSMA, the need to address CETA issues, non-tariff trade barriers and the lack of respect for international trade rules, the necessity to modernize the WTO, opportunities to diversify in Asia and the creation of a new post-Brexit trade relationship with the U.K.Yet, in an instant, COVID-19 upended the predictability and stability businesses and exporters need. The last few months have shown us just how foundational agri-food trade is for our economy and way of life. While we’re proud of the role our members have played in feeding Canadians and the world while also protecting jobs in a time of crisis, clear worries remain.Chief among them is the fear that this crisis will bring about new trade barriers and other forms of protectionism and that trade commitments will be undermined and not followed. Given the topics today, I will focus my remarks on, first, the need to continue to strengthen and improve existing trade relationships, the need to support WTO modernization and the rules-based global trading system, and the need to continue to open new markets, enforce free trade and put agri-food trade at the centre of the recovery.Canada has no more important trading partner than the U.S. Our members are very pleased that CUSMA is now in force. It will help ensure a continued strong foundation for uninterrupted trade with our closest neighbour and trading partner. Restoring stability and predictability to North American trade is essential for Canadian agri-food exporters that have developed highly integrated supply chains for the past generation across the continent, and especially so in the U.S.CUSMA will help restore the competitiveness in the North American free trade platform; normalize trade, not just for commodities but also for value-added food products; and enable a globally competitive sector that drives the economy forward in all three countries.It will be important to monitor the proper implementation of the agreement to realize its full benefits. I will point to two sectors in particular. The food processing sector is concerned with the implications of the front-of-pack labelling regulation—a trade irritant with the U.S.—and, in the sugar industry, a key driver of food exports to the U.S., discussions on the administration of TRQs create a level of uncertainty of access.It's very clear that the implementation of trade agreements is just as important as negotiating trade agreements and perhaps even more so. Take CETA, our comprehensive agreement with the European Union. It will turn three this September, yet despite holding so much promise for agri-food exporters, it continues to fall short. This is because the EU is not abiding by commitments to remove technical barriers.We know there are solutions to these persisting barriers. Such work includes achieving mutual recognition of meat processing systems, developing protocols to verify livestock production practices, addressing misaligned regulation of crop protection products, more predictable and timely review of seed technologies, ensuring that Italy’s country-of-origin labelling requirements are not applied in a trade-restrictive manner and addressing production and trade-distorting EU sugar subsidies that make our exports uneconomical. Italy provides an example where Canada needs to be assertive in defending our trade interests. Quiet conversations to date have not resolved the issues. It’s important that Canada challenges these so that Italy's protectionist measures do not spill over into other countries and products. We’ve asked the Canadian government to take up these issues with EU political leaders in order to secure commitments and timelines to remove and address the barriers that persist. As the world is moving toward the enforcement of rules, Canada, too, should step up its response and push for enforcement.Vietnam, Peru, India and others—the list goes on of countries that do not follow internationally agreed-upon protocol, that do not live up to their bilateral and WTO commitments and that maintain unwarranted SPS measures. All of these create significant risks and uncertainty for exporters. Canada needs to be proactive and nimble in its response to the growing use of non-tariff barriers to block agriculture and food exports.The current crisis has also shown us why we need a rules-based global trading system. CAFTA is pleased that the federal government has been at the forefront of efforts to safeguard the WTO and the rules-based trading system. This was done in large part through the Ottawa Group. The Ottawa Group, led by Canada, initially created to find ways to reform the WTO, has played a major role in keeping supply chains open to agri-food trade during the crisis and in seeking commitments from WTO members to limit and unwind the 200-plus trade restrictions adopted by 93 countries as a result of the crisis. It is imperative that this work continue.(1550)In parallel, the Ottawa Group needs to drive forward WTO reforms to fix the dispute resolution processes to ensure their ongoing functionality, to revitalize the multilateral negotiation process and to restructure the overall governance of the WTO.Amidst the crisis created by the pandemic, we must recognize that it's absolutely vital to get WTO reform right. We should fully expect that many countries will be tempted to use the current crisis to restrict trade and introduce non-tariff barriers disguised as excuses with protectionist motives. This is precisely why we need a solid, functioning WTO that can deliver on stable, predictable, open, rules-based trade as recovery begins to take root.Now is the time to step on the gas—Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade AgreementCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Agri-Food Trade AllianceCOVID-19International tradePandemicTrade agreementsWorld Trade Organization623394062339416233942Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMichèleRiouxMichèle-RiouxInterventionMs. Michèle Rioux: (1600)[English]Okay, I will.[Translation]Coming back to the United Kingdom, we believe that a bilateral agreement should be founded on the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, or CETA, with the aim of ensuring consistent transatlantic trade and continuing to work with European countries as we did before Brexit. In our opinion, the agreements with the United Kingdom should follow on from the third-generation agreements, which take into account the global standards, policies and regulations that CETA has promoted.With respect to CUSMA, very close attention must be paid to implementation, transparency and, above all, the cultural exemption and e-commerce. A number of issues affecting cultural industries will become clearer in the fall. I think our trade relationship with the United States will be seriously put to the test. It will be very important to properly articulate our objectives when it comes to cultural sovereignty and digital sovereignty. They are crucial issues that are not only the subject of trade disputes, but also—Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCentre d'études sur l'intégration et la mondialisationCOVID-19International tradePandemicTrade agreements6233977Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105623GregMcLeanGreg-McLeanCalgary CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McLeanGreg_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Greg McLean: (1835)[English] I appreciate that very much, and so do many of my friends here in western Canada.You mentioned the trade mechanisms that are happening with our trading partners like the United States through CUSMA. There is the issue of the carbon leakage that will happen because of the carbon tax, and the number of jobs that will bleed off your industry because of the mispricing of Canadian steel versus American steel, which is one market at this point in time.Can you explain how many jobs aren't going to come back from COVID because of that mechanism?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCarbon pricingCOVID-19Layoffs and job lossesPandemicSteel industryTrade agreements62220076222008CatherineCobdenCatherineCobdenCatherineCobdenCatherine-CobdenInterventionMs. Catherine Cobden: (1835)[English]Let me first explain that CUSMA is an extremely important deal for us. You mentioned CUSMA. It's an extremely important agreement. We want its implementation. We're looking forward to July 1. We want all parts of CUSMA to come into full play as soon as possible, including, as mentioned in my remarks, rules of origin.The carbon issue is a very interesting one. The Canadian Steel Producers took a leadership position on this issue just a few months ago, just before the COVID situation hit. Part of our thinking was that we wanted to be very good actors and help green the supply chain for Canada's energy sector as well as all of our other markets that I've mentioned.You may or may not be aware that we made a collective goal. The members of the Canadian Steel Producers Association adopted a goal, as we call it, an aspirational goal of net zero by 2050. We want to work with our customers, particularly our energy customers and our auto customers, etc., to help them.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCarbon pricingCOVID-19Layoffs and job lossesPandemicSteel industryTrade agreements622200962220106222011GregMcLeanCalgary CentreGregMcLeanCalgary Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105623GregMcLeanGreg-McLeanCalgary CentreConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McLeanGreg_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Greg McLean: (1835)[English]Ms. Cobden, I asked about the number of jobs that would drift to a different jurisdiction if we have to cost carbon into the steel mechanism.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCarbon pricingCOVID-19Layoffs and job lossesPandemicSteel industryTrade agreements6222012CatherineCobdenCatherineCobdenCatherineCobdenCatherine-CobdenInterventionMs. Catherine Cobden: (1835)[English]Yes, it's part of our quest on the net zero to find solutions to reduce our carbon footprint. We don't anticipate losing and don't want to lose any jobs. That's part of the point.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCarbon pricingCOVID-19Layoffs and job lossesPandemicSteel industryTrade agreements6222013GregMcLeanCalgary CentreGregMcLeanCalgary Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/86261JohnBarlowJohn-BarlowFoothillsConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarlowJohn_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. John Barlow: (1550)[English]Perfect.I'll start with number one, Mr. Chair: That, given the committee’s letter to the Standing Committee on International Trade on Tuesday, February 25, 2020, regarding its study of Bill C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican States (CUSMA), in which the committee outlined concerns about the impact on the Canadian dairy industry of implementing CUSMA before Saturday, August 1, 2020, and since it has been made public that the implementation date will now proceed on Wednesday, July 1, 2020, the Committee send for a copy of all briefing notes, memorandums, emails and documents related to the CUSMA’s implementation date and coming into force, to be provided before Wednesday, July 1, 2020, provided that the government does its assessment and vetting in gathering and releasing the documents as it would be done through the access to information process.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCommittee businessMotionsTrade agreements6199251PatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakePatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88360PatFinniganPat-FinniganMiramichi—Grand LakeLiberal CaucusNew Brunswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/FinniganPat_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you, Mr. Blois.Seeing no hands raised, I would like to ask the clerk to get a recorded vote on Mr. Barlow's motion.(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])The Chair: We will now go to your second motion, Mr. Barlow.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCommittee businessDecisions in committeeRecorded divisionsTrade agreements6199318KodyBloisKings—HantsJohnBarlowFoothills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88422XavierBarsalou-DuvalXavier-Barsalou-DuvalPierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—VerchèresBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarsalouDuvalXavier_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval: (1150)[Translation]I have another question for you, Mr. Davies.With the NAFTA, the government promised to establish an oversight system for imports of steel and aluminum to ensure that there is no dumping by countries producing steel very cheaply and selling it below cost.We have recently seen that the government intends to postpone the establishment of that oversight system because of COVID-19.Are you not afraid that countries that have not slowed their production, like China, may decide to flood our market?Aluminum industryCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dumping of importsOversight mechanismPandemicSteel industryTrade agreements619569261956936195694MitchDaviesTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganMitchDaviesMitch-DaviesInterventionMr. Mitch Davies: (1150)[English]On the question of dumping, obviously, the production global oversupply, in particular of steel and other products, is a very sensitive and important topic for Canada. We've worked collaboratively on international fronts to encourage these practices to discontinue, obviously to protect our industry and the competitiveness of our industry. I wouldn't have specific information on the specific measures, but I think that Canada Border Services Agency could perhaps be consulted in terms of the system of managing what importation is coming in. It's a very important priority, and I wouldn't say it's delayed in any way.Aluminum industryCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dumping of importsOversight mechanismPandemicSteel industryTrade agreements61956966195697TomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88742KarenVecchioKaren-VecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/VecchioKaren_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Karen Vecchio: (1630)[English]We talked a bit about the TPP, but can we look at the U.S. agreement as well, the USMCA, and the impact it's going to have on Canadian producers? Have we seen a cap put on how many chickens are coming in, or has it reached that limit yet?I know that when I spoke to turkey producers back at the end of April, they were saying that there have been more turkeys imported from the U.S. than in previous years. I'm wondering if we're seeing the same with chicken.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19PandemicPoultry farmingSupply managementTrade agreements61917136191714MichaelLalibertéBenoîtFontaineBenoîtFontaineBenoît-FontaineInterventionMr. Benoît Fontaine: (1630)[Translation] Good question.As I said earlier, because of the free trade agreement, there will be more American chicken on the shelves, since 62.9 million kilograms have been set aside for this financial partner in the form of tariff rate quotas. Again, a total of 129.6 million kilograms of foreign chicken will enter our country, which amounts to 10.8% of Canadian production. For the sector, this means the loss of 3,100 jobs and a $240 million drop in revenue. The turkey producers were right when they told you this.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19PandemicPoultry farmingSupply managementTrade agreements6191716KarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonKarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Thank you both.I do want to come back to either Mr. Fontaine or Mr. Laliberté on one of Karen's questions.On the 129 million birds that will be coming from the United States, what percentage of the Canadian market will they take up or supply? What percentage of the Canadian market will the U.S. now have?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19PandemicPoultry farmingSupply managementTrade agreements6191734KarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonBenoîtFontaineBenoîtFontaineBenoît-FontaineInterventionMr. Benoît Fontaine: (1635)[Translation]First, we're talking about 129 million kilograms, not 129 million heads. We mustn't confuse heads with kilograms.Second, 62.9 million kilograms have been set aside out of a total of 129 million kilograms. This is roughly 50%, and it amounts to 10.8% of the Canadian volume. For every kilogram of chicken that a person consumes, 100.8 grams come from elsewhere, and half of this certainly comes from the United States. This has created a major breach in supply management, which is very harmful to it. Supply management exists in the 10 Canadian provinces and is a solution for Canada's rural economy.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19PandemicPoultry farmingSupply managementTrade agreements61917356191736WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Are you saying it's 18% of the market in total they will have, just so I'm clear?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19PandemicPoultry farmingSupply managementTrade agreements6191737BenoîtFontaineBenoîtFontaineBenoîtFontaineBenoît-FontaineInterventionMr. Benoît Fontaine: (1635)[Translation]The total access is 10.8%.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19PandemicPoultry farmingSupply managementTrade agreements6191738WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88418YvesPerronYves-PerronBerthier—MaskinongéBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerronYves_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Perron: (1745)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Lampron. You referred to the last three agreements. That's why I find you very kind and polite.Mr. Frigon, I want to hear about how the entry into force of CUSMA on July 1 will affect you and your industry. Apparently, you were told that the agreement would come into effect on August 1. Can you take about 20 seconds to respond?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy industryPandemicTrade agreements6183499PierreLampronMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1745)[Translation]The impact will be very significant. In reality, the first year will last 30 days. There's a major difference between the first year and the second year in the agreement. In the second year, imports will triple and the export cap will be significantly reduced from 55,000 tonnes to 35,000 tonnes. We'll benefit from the first year for one month. These are substantial effects.We were extremely disappointed to learn that the implementation would take place on July 1.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy industryFrigon, MathieuPandemicTrade agreements61835006183501YvesPerronBerthier—MaskinongéYvesPerronBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88418YvesPerronYves-PerronBerthier—MaskinongéBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerronYves_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Perron: (1745)[Translation]You suffered a loss that wasn't anticipated, and this comes on top of everything else.You referred earlier to the tariff rate quotas resulting from the agreement with Europe. Over half of these quotas have been allocated to non-dairy agents, distributors, not to mention any names.Can you explain the negative impact of this situation? What could happen if the same mistake is made in the agreement with the United States?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy industryPandemicQuotasTrade agreements618350261835036183504MathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1745)[Translation] This was announced in 2017. Looking back, we saw that it created a great deal of instability in the market. Often, cheeses are imported specifically to compete with cheeses already produced in Canada, which leads to this instability.Of course, our members will make the decision to import based on dairy market conditions. They're involved in it, so to speak. They're well aware of market conditions and stock levels. The stakeholders outside the dairy industry aren't naturally inclined to look at these parameters or factors such as production or stock levels. In the past few years, we've seen that allocating this to external stakeholders creates a great deal of instability in the market. Obviously, there has been the volume impact, but also an impact on the entire structure.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy industryFrigon, MathieuPandemicQuotasTrade agreements61835056183506YvesPerronBerthier—MaskinongéYvesPerronBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89269AlistairMacGregorAlistair-MacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacGregorAllistair_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alistair MacGregor: (1740)[English]The point I'm making is that the sector is definitely feeling a pinch right now, but they've also felt pinches from other years. I just wanted to know if you've made any commitment to compensation to the sector for trade deals that your government negotiated with respect to CUSMA. Have you entered into any thoughts on that, yes or no?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy farmingGovernment compensationPandemicTrade agreements6158017Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1740)[English]For CUSMA, no, we have not yet done so, but our commitment is strong.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy farmingGovernment compensationPandemicTrade agreements6158018AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1310)[Translation]Mr. Chair, Canada's dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID-19 crisis and the new Canada–U.S.–Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA. Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10% to 50%, depending on the processed product.Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canada's dairy processors, not retailers directly?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Food and beverage manufacturing industryImportsMilk and dairy productsOral questionsPandemicTrade agreements61541876154188BillMorneauHon.Toronto CentreChrystiaFreelandHon.University—Rosedale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84665ChrystiaFreelandHon.Chrystia-FreelandUniversity—RosedaleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FreelandChrystia_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Chrystia Freeland: (1310)[Translation] Mr. Chair, I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation.I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA. That is important to Canada and Quebec, and I'm very pleased that we were able to do that.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Food and beverage manufacturing industryImportsMilk and dairy productsOral questionsPandemicTrade agreements61541896154190JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1310)[Translation]Mr. Chair, the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand. Canada's dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring high-quality products to consumers, while contributing $19 billion to GDP. Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian value-added products.Will the minister commit to giving Canada's dairy processors import permits, instead of encouraging American multinationals?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Food and beverage manufacturing industryImportsMilk and dairy productsOral questionsPandemicTrade agreements61541916154192ChrystiaFreelandHon.University—RosedaleChrystiaFreelandHon.University—Rosedale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84665ChrystiaFreelandHon.Chrystia-FreelandUniversity—RosedaleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FreelandChrystia_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Chrystia Freeland: (1310)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question.I fully understand, as we all do, the important role processors play in our system and our country. I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Food and beverage manufacturing industryImportsMilk and dairy productsOral questionsPandemicTrade agreements61541936154194JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88418YvesPerronYves-PerronBerthier—MaskinongéBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerronYves_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Perron: (1350)[Translation]What we concluded in committee this week is that the $125 million is not new money. It was already earmarked for the programs. The government can't say that programs already exist and, at the same time, claim that they are new programs. Something doesn't add up there.What's more, there are different ways to make money available. I'd like to talk compensation. Everyone knows that the Canada-U.S.-Mexico Agreement came into force a month earlier than planned, despite the promises that had been made. That resulted in additional losses, once again. An easy way to make money available without committing new spending is to provide compensation and announce programs for supply-managed sectors that got nothing. It seems to me that a time of crisis is a time for the government to practise some judo and announce measures. I am reaching out to the government, as I always do, but it has to come forward with announcements.Can we expect the government to announce measures in the coming days?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Farming and farmersGovernment compensationOral questionsPandemicTrade agreements61450486145049Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1355)[Translation]Our commitment to farmers in supply-managed sectors—meaning, egg, poultry and dairy farmers—is as strong as it always was. I repeat, our commitment is clear.Dairy producers received their first payment at the end of last year or the beginning of this year. Support for poultry and egg farmers is in the form of investment programs, which aligns well with the recovery.At this time, we are focusing on emergency programs to help farmers hardest hit by the COVID-19 pandemic. When it comes to the dairy sector, I hope I can count on your support. As you know, legislative changes are needed to grant the Canadian Dairy Commission's request and increase its borrowing limit by $200 million so it can buy more butter and cheese.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Farming and farmersGovernment compensationOral questionsPandemicTrade agreements6145050614505161450526145053YvesPerronBerthier—MaskinongéAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88418YvesPerronYves-PerronBerthier—MaskinongéBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerronYves_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Perron: (1745)[Translation]I just want to point out that the need is here and now, quickly.I want to address another topic, the ratification of CUSMA, which will come into force on July 1.In other committee meetings, we met with dairy processors and farmers. They were very disappointed. They were told that this agreement wouldn't come into force before August 1. However, the promise wasn't kept. This isn't the first time. This also happened in recent international negotiations.The representatives of the dairy processing sector spoke about the current issue of import quotas to comply with the percentages of goods that will enter the country as part of these announcements. They explained the importance of allocating most of the quotas to processors rather than to distributors.Are you making any progress on this issue? Can you share any signs of progress? I know that this process will be established in the coming weeks, and I imagine that the department is working on it.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy farmingDairy industryPandemicSupply managementTrade agreements6145877614587861458796145880ChrisForbesChrisForbesFrédéricSeppeyFrédéric-SeppeyInterventionMr. Frédéric Seppey (Assistant Deputy Minister, Market and Industry Services Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food): (1745)[Translation]The allocation of import tariff rate quotas plays a key role in the orderly management of market access commitments.Over the course of the negotiations and since the signature of the agreement on November 1, 2018, we've worked closely with Global Affairs Canada and industry stakeholders, including dairy processors, to ensure that the quota allocation meets their needs. The allocation must comply with international trade rules. However, I can assure you that processors were consulted with regard to the terms of CUSMA.I want to add that Global Affairs Canada was conducting a major review of all tariff rate quotas in every international agreement. This review is on hold because of the current crisis, but it will start again. The interests of dairy processors were really taken into account in the establishment of this allocation. Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy farmingDairy industryDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodPandemicSupply managementTrade agreements614588261458836145884ChrisForbesYvesPerronBerthier—MaskinongéGillesFromentGilles-FromentInterventionMr. Gilles Froment (Secretary, Dairy Processors Association of Canada): (1825)[English] We cannot come here today without putting in broader context the impact of COVID on the dairy sector.At full implementation, when considering the last three trade agreements, Canadian dairy processors will lose about $320 million per year on net margin. On top of the market access concessions, CUSMA has a clause that imposes caps on worldwide exports of Canadian milk powder, which will make it increasingly difficult to balance the supply management system. As per the clauses of the agreement, there's a significant difference between year one of CUSMA and year two, both in terms of export caps and level of access into the Canadian market. There is no question that having CUSMA entering into force on July 1 instead of August 1 will have a huge impact on the dairy sector, as it means that year one of CUSMA will last 30 days as opposed to a full year.We trust that the government will keep its promises to fully and fairly compensate dairy processors for their losses. As such, we would like to remind the committee of the twofold approach to mitigate the negative impact of these trade agreements: first, allocation of import licences to Canadian dairy processors; and second, a dairy processor investment program.In conclusion, the pandemic has brought unprecedented challenges to the entire Canadian economy, and the dairy sector is facing significant pressures endangering its financial viability. It is imperative that essential activities such as ours be treated as such by our governments.We thank you for your time and consideration of this important topic, and we welcome any questions you might have.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy industryDairy Processors Association of CanadaGovernment compensationPandemicSupply managementTrade agreements614802661480276148028DominiqueBenoitSherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104630SébastienLemireSébastien-LemireAbitibi—TémiscamingueBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LemireSébastien_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Sébastien Lemire (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ): (1845)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I can see the situation is critical. I want to thank the members of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology for their flexibility in agreeing to take the agri-food sector as the first topic for in-depth study. We can see that agriculture may be the sector that's struggling the most right now and that should be at the core of the Quebec identity and the Canadian identity.Let me elaborate. What is a Canadian? What separates us from the Americans, if not our food sovereignty and our culture? Those are two areas that are tremendously at risk of being swallowed up by the Americans, especially in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic and the repercussions of the free trade agreement that was just signed and that will come into force on April 1.We've just heard the news that the beef industry is being hit hard right now and that prices could plummet, which would harm cattle farmers in eastern Canada, especially in Quebec. Despite the fact that they were expecting to increase the number of cattle slaughtered to more than 1,000, a case of COVID-19 in an industry can have a shattering impact, as happened in western Canada. It's always beef producers that will suffer the consequences, because collapsing prices will significantly increase their risk of going out of business, which would be a major tragedy.We need to protect our economy, especially our SMEs, our little guys who are up against the Americans. An aid package was announced a while back, but the money isn't getting to our farmers, especially small farmers who pay themselves in dividends. Action is urgently needed in that regard. I think action will be need to be taken on federal aid. Since we're joined by dairy processors today, I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about the impact of the coming into force of the new free trade agreement, CUSMA, in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic. Because the agreement was signed before May 1, the dairy year will begin on July 1. There will be a reduction of nearly 40% in Canadian dairy sector exports, which translates to a loss of over $100 million in the short term and $330 million annually.What kind of compensation are you hoping to get in order for your industry to survive, particularly in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy industryGovernment compensationPandemicSupply managementTrade agreements61481126148113SherryRomanadoLongueuil—Charles-LeMoyneGillesFromentGillesFromentGilles-FromentInterventionMr. Gilles Froment: (1850)[Translation]I can answer that question. I'm Gilles Froment, secretary of the Dairy Processors Association of Canada.I think you're right. COVID-19 is having a very clear impact on all of our businesses. For the three agreements we've signed, namely the agreement with Europe, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and the new agreement with the United States and Mexico, which will come into force in July, processors are calling for about $750 million a year.Regarding the free trade agreement signed with the United States and Mexico, we were told very clearly that there was an informal understanding that it wouldn't come into force until August 1. As you said, the fact that the agreement is coming into force on July 1 and not August 1 means we're basically losing the first year of implementation, which was supposed to give us some flexibility. We're supposed to get to export 55,000 tonnes of skim milk powder and milk protein concentrates in the first year. Now, we're only getting a month to do it, which is completely ridiculous. The second year starts immediately after 30 days of implementation, and that represents a significant loss for our industry. Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Dairy industryGovernment compensationPandemicSupply managementTrade agreements61481156148116SébastienLemireAbitibi—TémiscamingueSébastienLemireAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104630SébastienLemireSébastien-LemireAbitibi—TémiscamingueBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LemireSébastien_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Sébastien Lemire: (1850)[Translation]That certainly is a catastrophe. It should be understood that milk consists of two substances: fat and protein. Sales of the fat, meaning milk and cream, are on the rise, while sales of the protein are in decline. The competition is fierce. One of the consequences is that the United States has just blocked the sale of milk powder on the global market. One solution proposed by your industry is, of course, tariff rate quotas.Could you tell us what mechanism could or should be put in place to ensure the survival of our farms and our processors?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Customs tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryPandemicSupply managementTrade agreements61481176148118GillesFromentDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1850)[Translation]I'm Dominique Benoit from Agropur. I can answer your question and add to what Mr. Froment said.Regarding import quotas, I should point out that the demands of the processing industry are also supported by producers. Processors are calling for the vast majority of the import quotas to be granted to the dairy processing sector, because in Canada, that's the sector that will suffer the repercussions of the three agreements that were mentioned earlier. Products coming into Canada won't be manufactured here anymore. Milk won't be produced or processed here anymore. In our opinion, at the very least, the quotas should go to the processing sector.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Customs tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryPandemicSupply managementTrade agreements6148120SébastienLemireAbitibi—TémiscamingueSébastienLemireAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lévis—Lotbinière, CPC): (1315)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Yesterday, we learned that in March, the Liberal government gave assurances to parliamentarians that the Canada–U.S.–Mexico Agreement wouldn't come into force until August 1, 2020. We now know that the agreement will come into force on July 1, 2020.Does the Deputy Prime Minister deny that she gave assurances to parliamentarians about the effective date of the Canada–U.S.–Mexico Agreement?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Oral questionsPandemic613350061335016133502AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84665ChrystiaFreelandHon.Chrystia-FreelandUniversity—RosedaleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FreelandChrystia_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Chrystia Freeland: (1315)[Translation]Mr. Chair, the new NAFTA is the result of three years of hard work for all Canadians.We all came together as a country throughout the negotiations. The result is excellent for Canada, especially since today there are major issues around the global economy and protectionism. This is good news for our country.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementOral questions61335046133505AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1315)[Translation]Mr. Chair, as the Deputy Prime Minister knows, the dairy industry will face significant financial losses if the agreement comes into force on July 1, 2020, rather than August 1, 2020.Why has this government broken its commitment to August 1 as the effective date of the Canada–U.S.–Mexico Agreement?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Oral questionsPandemic61335076133508AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84665ChrystiaFreelandHon.Chrystia-FreelandUniversity—RosedaleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FreelandChrystia_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Chrystia Freeland: (1315)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I would like to tell the honourable member and all members here that, in the context of a global economic crisis worse than the Great Depression, the conclusion of a free trade agreement with the United States is an excellent success for Canada.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Oral questionsPandemic6133510AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingAnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—Timiskaming//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88418YvesPerronYves-PerronBerthier—MaskinongéBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerronYves_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Perron: (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll share my time with my colleague, the member for Shefford.It seems difficult to obtain new commitments for the farming community today. I'll give the government the opportunity to easily follow up on the existing commitments. We heard earlier that the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement, or CUSMA, would come into force starting in July rather than in August. This will mean further financial losses. With regard to the compensation for which agreements have been made with certain sectors, but that hasn't been provided yet, can the government commit to making these payments soon?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Farming and farmersGovernment compensationOral questionsPandemic6133578AnthonyRotaHon.Nipissing—TimiskamingBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Perron, I want to reassure you that we're absolutely upholding our commitments to various supply-managed sectors. As you know, we committed to allocating $1.75 billion to the dairy sector, and the first installment has already been paid. With regard to poultry and eggs, COVID-19 has caused a setback, to say the least. However, I want to assure you that our commitment still stands and that discussions will start again as soon as the situation returns to normal.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Farming and farmersGovernment compensationOral questionsPandemic6133581BruceStantonSimcoe NorthBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88418YvesPerronYves-PerronBerthier—MaskinongéBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerronYves_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Perron: (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.A number of things can be done to support the farming community. In particular, proposals have been made to increase the credit capacity of the Canadian Dairy Commission so that less milk is thrown out. There are also discussions about implementing a cattle set-aside program, as proposed by the beef producers from the Canadian Cattlemen's Association. COVID-19 is resulting in lower production in slaughterhouses across the country.Where do things stand on these two issues and when can we expect an announcement in this regard?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Farming and farmersOral questionsPandemic61335846133585BruceStantonSimcoe NorthBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We're very supportive of the potential credit increase for the Canadian Dairy Commission, but this would require an amendment to the regulations. The discussion on this issue is ongoing.Regarding our other commitments, I want to assure you once again that we're continuing our discussions with the various industry representatives to provide the best possible support, given their specific needs and circumstances. I'm thinking in particular of the beef sector.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCOVID-19Farming and farmersOral questionsPandemic61335886133589BruceStantonSimcoe NorthBruceStantonSimcoe North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88633François-PhilippeChampagneHon.François-Philippe-ChampagneSaint-Maurice—ChamplainLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChampagneFrancoisPhilippe_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. François-Philippe Champagne (Minister of Foreign Affairs): (1535)[English]Madam Chair, thank you very much. I just want to say, colleagues, thank you for welcoming me to the foreign affairs committee at a time when I think our nation is faced with a number of challenges. I want to take this opportunity, Madam Chair, to thank the outstanding officials who are standing with me. Many of them have been working 24-7 for the last few months, I would say, and they have been doing their utmost to provide the best services to Canadians in difficult circumstances, whether in coronavirus assistance in Japan and China, to efforts in Iran, where we had to face a number of challenges, and then obviously in our relationship in trying to obtain the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor and clemency for Mr. Schellenberg.Madam Chair and honourable members, thank you for welcoming me to appear before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development to speak about our government's foreign policy mandate and our current priorities.I would like to begin by emphasizing that Canadian interests, values and principles are the heart of everything that we do on the international stage, from our commitment to multilateral institutions to our trade agreements and our defence and promotion of human rights. This approach is critical in an increasingly unpredictable world where the rules-based system is under strain.[Translation]This is evident in the rise of populism and protectionism and the growth of economic and technological inequalities around the world.This is evident in the serious doubt being cast upon multilateral institutions and the rules-based international order.This is also evident in the decline of human rights and the increasingly selective enforcement of international law.[English]Increasingly, human rights are under threat, from the plight of the Rohingya to the rise of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia to attacks on human rights defenders. Add to that an immense demographic transformation. By 2050, the world's population could increase by 2.2 billion people, and 2.2 billion people will also be facing the existential threat of our time, which is, obviously, climate change.[Translation]This observation may, of course, seem daunting, even insurmountable to some. However, there are also encouraging signs that give hope.Inspiring people are advancing our societies and improving the lives of marginalized people the world over.There is also a growing consensus on human rights, including women's rights, LGBTQ2 rights and democratic rights, around the globe.[English]Madam Chair, major international challenges require global solutions, and I think we're seeing it today with the coronavirus in particular. Hence, the importance of a rules-based international order that every country can count on to defend their interests while ensuring the collective interests of all.However, that rules-based international order, as you well know, my dear colleagues, is under threat in many, many corners of the world. This is why we must support and modernize the multilateral system to ensure its sustainability, and this is where Canada can, and indeed must, play a leading role.[Translation]Canada has a voice in almost every major international forum: the G7, the G20, the Francophonie, the Commonwealth, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, or NATO, the North American Aerospace Defence Command, or NORAD, and the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, or OECD, to name but a few.The very principles on which the confederation of our country is based—peace, order and good government—resonate in many parts of the world. Our reputation and credibility as a country rest on our ability to demonstrate to our partners and allies how our principles and values concretely guide our diplomacy around the world.(1540)[English] Let me now present to you the priorities that guide my mandate so far.First is Iran and the tragedy of flight PS752. If anything, it illustrates the importance of diplomacy and multilateralism. Faced with this tragedy, we chose engagement, while remaining firm so that justice could be done for the families of the victims. Canada led the creation of the international coordination and response group for victims of flight PS752 to ensure that the international community could speak to Iran with one voice, and despite the pitfalls, despite the lack of diplomatic relations with Iran, we were able to quickly dispatch investigators to the field and repatriate the bodies of the victims in accordance with the wishes of the families. Much work remains to be done, Madam Chair, for Iran to assume full responsibility, including a complete and transparent investigation, the downloading and analysis of the black boxes and swift compensation for the families. We are working hard to make progress on all these fronts. We will continue to hold the Iranian regime accountable, and as I've said many times, we will judge Iran not by its words but by its actions. [Translation]Let me now turn to China.[English]The year 2020 will mark 50 years of diplomatic relations between Canada and the People's Republic of China. Unfortunately, the relationship between our two countries is currently undergoing a turbulent period. Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have been arbitrarily detained for over a year now. Our top priority remains securing their release. We are also working to obtain clemency for Robert Schellenberg who, as you know, Madam Chair, has been sentenced to death in China.International partners share our opinion. The action of a state within the framework of an international treaty must never generate reprisals against its citizens abroad. [Translation]However, our relationship with China remains complex and multidimensional. Finding the right balance is a delicate operation. There will always be issues where we will have differences and issues on which will have overlapping positions. So we must learn to live with this new complexity.For example, it is possible to work with China on reforming the World Trade Organization, or WTO, while having divergent positions on human rights.One thing is for sure. Our relations with China will always be guided by the interests of Canadians and by our commitment to the roles and principles enshrined in international law.[English]Another priority, Madam Chair, is our campaign for a non-permanent seat on the UN Security Council. As I've said before, a seat on the Security Council is not an end in itself: It is a vehicle for promoting the principles and the values that shape our vision of international relations. We are witnessing a major questioning of the capacity of international institutions to respond to the crises of our time, particularly in Asia and Africa and Latin America. There's an urgent need to develop new approaches and create new consensus to face these challenges. Our campaign for a seat on the Security Council is therefore a great opportunity for Canada to demonstrate leadership: to assert our interests, principles and values; and to strengthen and adapt multilateralism to the realities of today.[Translation]Some will say that the fight for a seat on the United Nations, or UN, Security Council is not worth it or that it may be too late. However, it is never too late to fight for women's rights, human rights, the environment or democracy.Some will even criticize the Security Council, saying it is obsolete or even ineffective. Nevertheless, it remains one of the most important forums in the world where major decisions on peace and security are taken. It is a forum where Canada can have both a relevant voice and an influence.(1545)Finally. I'd like to say a word about our relationship with our neighbours to the south, the United States. We are inseparable allies, partners and friends because of our geography, our personal ties and, of course, our economic ties.[English] The new NAFTA opens another chapter in our relationship, one of prosperity, opportunity and stability. As evidenced by the sometimes difficult negotiations over the last two years, our government will never compromise on the interests of Canadians. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Prime Minister and my predecessor for their tireless work, which brought increased stability and predictability to our commercial relationship with the United States, our biggest and largest trading partner. To conclude, some may say that in a minority government we have to act quickly to achieve our objectives, but as an African proverb I've quoted before says that if you want to go fast, you go alone, but if you want to go far, let's walk together. [Translation]Hence the importance of an inclusive approach, such as the one I am proposing to you today, where provinces, territories, businesses, non-governmental organizations, artists, civil society and members of Parliament from all parties, in cooperation with our international partners, work with us to build a greener, fairer, safer, more inclusive and more prosperous world.Thank you.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaCivil and human rightsDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentInternational OrganizationsInternational relationsIranUkraine International Airlines Flight PS752United Nations Security Council611200661120216112022LeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillStéphaneBergeronMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1635)[English]Also, I know that an impact assessment has been prepared. I wonder if we could have a copy of that for the Mercosur trade conversation that's ongoing right now with Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay. I'm wondering if we could also have a copy of the impact assessment for the new NAFTA. While I recognize that this was done based on a comparison with no trade agreement, I wonder if we could have an impact assessment for the old NAFTA versus the new USMCA.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementInternational relationsMERCOSURNorth American Free Trade AgreementTrade agreements61122746112275François-PhilippeChampagneHon.Saint-Maurice—ChamplainFrançois-PhilippeChampagneHon.Saint-Maurice—Champlain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88633François-PhilippeChampagneHon.François-Philippe-ChampagneSaint-Maurice—ChamplainLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChampagneFrancoisPhilippe_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. François-Philippe Champagne: (1640)[English]Thank you for that very detailed question.I will turn to one outstanding Canadian who has been at the forefront of all of these negotiations, Steve Verheul. Maybe you want to provide a bit of additional feedback to—Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementInternational relationsMERCOSURNorth American Free Trade AgreementTrade agreements61122766112277LeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88671LeonaAlleslevLeona-AlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AlleslevLeona_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Leona Alleslev: (1640)[English]I don't need any. I'm looking.... We'll have lots of opportunity to ask you questions about them after we've had a chance to look at the documents.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementInternational relationsMERCOSURNorth American Free Trade AgreementTrade agreements6112278François-PhilippeChampagneHon.Saint-Maurice—ChamplainFrançois-PhilippeChampagneHon.Saint-Maurice—Champlain//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88633François-PhilippeChampagneHon.François-Philippe-ChampagneSaint-Maurice—ChamplainLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ChampagneFrancoisPhilippe_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. François-Philippe Champagne: (1640)[English]I would say to the extent they exist. The only reason I was turning to my official is that I don't know if all the documents you refer to exist, so that's why, before I responded.... I want to know if they exist before I can tell you if we're going to provide them.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementInternational relationsMERCOSURNorth American Free Trade AgreementTrade agreements6112279LeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond HillLeonaAlleslevAurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): (1530)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I am delighted to be with you again. In Canada, we are all driven by this same passion and commitment to agriculture.First, I would like to thank you for your dedication. You immediately got to work to discuss business risk management programs, an issue that is very important to our producers, and one that I pay particular attention to.[English] Our government is working hard to support producers and help grow the Canadian agriculture sector, and the supplementary estimates we are discussing today are proof of that. Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada supplementary estimates total $435 million, for a total annual budget of close to $3 billion. Of that amount, we are investing $345 million in the first installment of the full and fair compensation that we committed to our dairy producers for the impact from our trade agreements with the European Union and the trans-Pacific zone. The estimate also includes $21.4 million to meet increased demands for the advance payments program. These funds are related to the improvements we made last year to the APP, including increasing the interest-free cash advances available to canola producers from $100,000 to $500,000, and raising the total advances available for canola and all other commodities to $1 million, up from $400,000.[Translation]Producers have long been requesting these changes that will give them more access to liquid assets. We are proud to have been able to increase this support.In addition, $55.3 million is allocated to the Canadian agricultural partnership to give the provinces more flexibility to implement regional programs.[English]Mr. Chair, I care deeply about our Canadian farmers. They have been incredibly resilient in the face of stressful challenges this past year. Poor seeding and harvesting conditions in many parts of the country, market access challenges, including canola in China, and then a rail strike followed by the blockades have resulted in difficulties moving products to market, accessing input supplies, and have affected profitability.We worked hard to reach lasting and peaceful solutions, and it is encouraging to see commodities moving again. We are closely monitoring the impacts of the coronavirus on the agriculture sector. This is a global challenge, and with the help of the recently announced response fund, we are well positioned to respond. Trade is a key priority for our farmers, and we continue to work hard to help capture the amazing opportunities that lie ahead. Our efforts are paying off. Last year, Canada's agriculture, food and seafood exports reached over $67 billion, continuing growth towards reaching our goal of $75 billion in exports by 2025. The value of Canadian grain exports has increased by 25% since 2016. Our cattle and beef exports were up by over 20%, and in Japan, they rose by almost 70%, as producers begin to reap the benefits of the CPTPP. While we continue to diversify our trade, we are working to strengthen our relationship with our largest trading partner to the south. Last month, Secretary Perdue and I discussed the importance of the new NAFTA and our commitment to ratifying it as soon as possible. Hundreds of thousands of jobs rely on this trade relationship. I also reminded the secretary of the importance and value of Canada's supply management system.[Translation]Obviously, government support to our agricultural producers isn't limited to trade support. With regard to supply-managed sectors, we are making progress on the compensation promised. Already, almost $345 million has been disbursed in direct payments to dairy producers, in addition to investment programs on farms and in dairy processing, for a total of $423 million in this fiscal year. We are about to finalize compensation for the other producers and processors, according to their preferences. We will do the same regarding CUSMA.We are also continuing to improve our federal-provincial-territorial risk management programs. It's my very first objective among all of those set out in my mandate letter by the Prime Minister.I would like to take this opportunity to thank the committee for undertaking a study on business risk management programs, and I hope your work will be constructive. Your recommendations will be given careful consideration, and I hope your work will help to improve these programs for our agricultural producers.(1535)[English] With my colleagues from the provinces and territories, we have made some immediate improvements to AgriStability. Starting this year, private insurance payments won't count against farmers' AgriStability payments. As well, we have asked officials to look at each and every program and tell us whether they are meeting their objectives and, if not, to identify gaps. Farmers face new business risks, and trade and climate have more impact on today's farms.I also look forward to the committee's review of BRM programs. Together, we will help to ensure they deliver for our farmers. [Translation]Producers tell me that environmental protection is in their DNA. They aren't farming their land just for today, but also for future generations. However, producers must have access to new green technologies, to better products and better practices. That's where we want to help them.[English]We continue to make investments in innovation and environmental sustainability. For example, last week, on Prince Edward Island, we partnered with the province to announce a joint investment under the agricultural clean technology program. The funding will help organic greenhouse producers transition to 100% clean energy.Sustainability is not only about the environment. For farmers, sustainability is also economic and social, and that includes mental health.When I talk about diversification, I think in terms of markets but also of a wider range of products, value added. Investing in innovation is another way to increase the demand and to get more money for the products we have. [Translation]Within the Food Policy for Canada, we are also working to create trust and pride in Canadian agriculture and our producers through a new $25-million “buy Canadian” initiative.Lastly, we must work together to prepare the next generation of Canadian producers and processors. I'm working with the Minister of Finance to facilitate the intergenerational transfer of farm operations. A family farm is a life's work, so we must help the next generation to take up the torch.We also need to have a greater diversity of views around the table, as we all see the challenges and opportunities differently. To encourage our young people to take leadership roles in the sector, I am pleased to launch the first Canadian Agricultural Youth Council.[English]I want to hear directly from youth across the country, including indigenous communities, about their vision for agriculture. We must give them what they need to succeed. The future belongs to them. Likewise, we need more women in leadership positions in agriculture. It's encouraging to see more women stepping forward. Their perspective is vital to help shape a sustainable future for our industry. I understand the pressures faced by producers, along with higher levels of stress. Canadian farmers work hard to feed us. I'm inspired by their resilience, their ability to innovate and their respect for the environment and animal welfare. These women and men deserve our greatest respect. I know that everyone around this table is committed to doing everything in our power to ensure they have a future full of promise for them and for the coming generations.[Translation]I'd like to thank the committee for its dedication to agriculture and for its co-operation.I would be pleased to discuss this with you. Thank you.Advance Payments ProgramAgricultural Clean Technology ProgramAgricultural policyAgricultural productsAgriStability ProgramBusiness Risk Management programsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Agricultural PartnershipCanadian Agricultural Youth CouncilCanadian productsCattle farmingCOVID-19Dairy farmingDairy industryDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodEnvironmental protectionExportsFarming and farmersFederal-provincial-territorial relationsFish and seafoodFood policyGovernment compensationGrain and grain growingIndigenous peoplesLabour forcePandemicPrince Edward IslandPrivate sectorRenewable energy and fuelRisk managementSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Supply managementTrade agreementsTransatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP)Transfer of propertyWomenYoung people61172536117254PatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakePatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88418YvesPerronYves-PerronBerthier—MaskinongéBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PerronYves_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Perron: (1555)[Translation]I'm sorry for interrupting. I hope you don't see it as disrespectful.I'd like to ask you a very important question. You talked about ratifying CUSMA as quickly as possible. The issue of August 1st for the export quotas that were imposed in the agreement was discussed at this committee. I hope that you in the department are very aware of this and that you will take all the necessary precautions to ensure that this comes into effect after August 1st. Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsQuotasSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements6117373Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1555)[Translation]We will follow the parliamentary process in terms of ratification of the agreement. I'm very aware of the situation, and we will see what can be done.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsQuotasSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements6117374YvesPerronBerthier—MaskinongéYvesPerronBerthier—Maskinongé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89269AlistairMacGregorAlistair-MacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacGregorAllistair_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alistair MacGregor: (1600)[English]I will make a comment in my final seconds, echoing what Mr. Perron said about the threshold limits in CUSMA for certain dairy products that are exported. We have heard resoundingly, time and time again, with respect to the dairy year starting on August 1, that they really want to see the ratification of CUSMA happen with that in mind. I hope you are very much paying attention to that.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsQuotasSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements6117405Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1600)[English]I am.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsQuotasSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements6117406AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104653RichardLehouxRichard-LehouxBeauceConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LehouxRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Lehoux: (1605)[Translation]Thank you for your answer on that, Madam Minister.I would also like to raise the topic of the new Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement. We know that the bill to implement it is currently at third reading and that the agreement should come into force fairly quickly. It still means very significant loopholes, especially in relation to the whole issue of sovereignty, as evidenced by the limits it imposes on our export capabilities. It's a peculiar thing because this is the first time this has happened in negotiations between Canada and other countries.What do you think?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements61174256117426Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1605)[Translation]We are working with the industry and with the Canadian Dairy Commission. A committee has been set up to develop a vision for the future of the dairy sector and to study opportunities for innovation, as new markets and new products are not necessarily targeted in the agreement.Again, this is a situation where we want to protect the supply management system. I don't want there to be any doubt in your mind when I suggest that we need to be creative. I think there's a lot of room for innovation and research in the dairy sector, particularly in terms of milk by-products, proteins, and non-fat solids. The sector has a future that is still a little unknown, but promising.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements61174276117428RichardLehouxBeauceRichardLehouxBeauce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104653RichardLehouxRichard-LehouxBeauceConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LehouxRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Lehoux: (1605)[Translation]You will understand, Madam Minister, that companies are very concerned. We can indeed work to develop new markets in co-operation with processors and producers, who are also very much on the lookout for these opportunities. However, the fact remains that things get much more complicated when we have to ask our neighbour to the south for authorization before we can develop new markets.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Supply managementTrade agreements6117429Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1605)[Translation]However, it's not a big change. It's worded differently, but the reality is that the United States has always had the option of pulling out of the agreement if it doesn't like something. Certainly, the way it's worded now, it is more aggressive—Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Supply managementTrade agreements6117430RichardLehouxBeauceRichardLehouxBeauce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104653RichardLehouxRichard-LehouxBeauceConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LehouxRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Lehoux: (1605)[Translation]It's still different, Madam Minister.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Supply managementTrade agreements6117431Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1605)[Translation]—but in fact—Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Supply managementTrade agreements6117432RichardLehouxBeauceRichardLehouxBeauce//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89269AlistairMacGregorAlistair-MacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacGregorAllistair_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alistair MacGregor: (1725)[English]How will CUSMA be factored in? What about our poultry and egg producers? What's going on with them?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodEgg industryGovernment compensationPoultry industrySupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Supply managementTrade agreements6117823ChrisForbesChrisForbesChrisForbesChris-ForbesInterventionMr. Chris Forbes: (1725)[English]I will go back to what the minister said. There has been a lot of work done on looking at the impacts with the sector. I think the next question is that they will be programming the full and fair compensation that the government's committed to, and that will come when it's announced by the government. I can't tell you any more than that.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodEgg industryGovernment compensationPoultry industrySupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Supply managementTrade agreements6117824AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89269AlistairMacGregorAlistair-MacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacGregorAllistair_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alistair MacGregor: (1725)[English]Do you not have a timeline on where it is right now?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodEgg industryGovernment compensationPoultry industrySupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Supply managementTrade agreements6117825ChrisForbesChrisForbesChrisForbesChris-ForbesInterventionMr. Chris Forbes: (1725)[English]It's a bit like Mr. Parent's question. I can't tell you when.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodEgg industryGovernment compensationPoultry industrySupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements6117826AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordArunAlexanderArun-AlexanderInterventionMr. Arun Alexander (Director General, North America Trade Policy Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1535)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and honourable members. Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this discussion today and to provide you with an update on the softwood lumber file.I am joined by Michael Owen, senior counsel and executive director in the trade law bureau; Colin Barker, director of the softwood lumber division at Global Affairs Canada; and Ronnie Hayes, senior business adviser at the trade sectors bureau at Global Affairs Canada.Canada's forest sector supports over 211,000 jobs in 300 communities across the country. It contributed $25.8 billion to Canada's GDP in 2018. We are keenly aware that the forest sector has faced significant economic headwinds. This has serious impacts on the workers and communities that rely on it. The forest sector is currently facing challenging market conditions, including a reduction in the supply of harvestable timber, mostly in British Columbia, and increased competition in overseas markets. Another challenge, of course, is the duties imposed by the United States on Canadian softwood lumber. Given Canada's geographic proximity and close commercial links with the United States, it is no surprise that the United States is our number one export market for softwood lumber. Today, the U.S. market accounts for nearly 80% of Canada's softwood lumber exports. For many decades, the United States has relied on Canadian softwood lumber to fill the gap between its domestic production capacity and its demand for lumber.Despite this mutually beneficial relationship, the Canada-U.S. softwood lumber dispute has become one of the most enduring trade disputes between our two countries. Over the past few decades, the United States lumber industry has frequently petitioned the U.S. government to enact protectionist measures against Canadian softwood lumber imports, including through the application of import duties. The basis for much of the American action against Canadian softwood lumber lies in the differences between how forests in Canada and the United States are managed. The United States has consistently alleged that public management versus private ownership results in unfair subsidies for Canadian lumber manufacturers. Time and time again, these arguments have been found to be without basis. Canada has brought challenges against the previous duty determinations under NAFTA chapter 19, and before the World Trade Organization dispute settlement system. The U.S. has repeatedly lost in those dispute processes, because Canada does not subsidize softwood lumber production.Most recently, following the expiry of the 2006 softwood lumber agreement in 2015, and a subsequent one year standstill period, the United States began a new investigation into Canadian softwood lumber practices at the request of the U.S. domestic lumber industry. In January 2018, following anti-dumping and countervailing duty investigations by the U.S. Department of Commerce, the United States once again began imposing duties on softwood lumber imports from Canada.These countervailing and anti-dumping duties are entirely unjustified. We firmly believe that these determinations are inconsistent with U.S. law and with the international trade obligations of the United States under the WTO. The Government of Canada is currently challenging the latest U.S. softwood lumber duties through five legal processes, three under NAFTA chapter 19, and two before the WTO dispute settlement system.Under chapter 19, Canada is challenging the U.S. Department of Commerce's final countervailing and anti-dumping duty determinations, as well as the U.S. International Trade Commission's decision on material injury to U.S. industry. Panels established under chapter 19 review whether these determinations are consistent with U.S. law. Let me add here that the Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement, or the new NAFTA, preserves the bi-national panel dispute resolution process for trade remedies that was in chapter 19 of the original NAFTA. This process protects Canadian companies and workers from the unfair application of U.S. or Mexican anti-dumping and countervailing duties with a transparent and independent dispute settlement system. This will continue to ensure that these measures are applied in accordance with each parties domestic laws. It is strategically important for preserving market access outcomes and defending Canada's interests.Canada's success in maintaining the dispute settlement mechanism means that once the new NAFTA is in force, Canada's current chapter 19 challenges under U.S. law can continue in parallel with any new challenges under the new NAFTA's chapter 10 to unwarranted or unfair duties imposed in U.S. annual administrative reviews.Amongst the NAFTA and the WTO cases, the most advanced is the injury challenge. On September 4, 2019, the NAFTA panel ruling on Canada's injury challenge issued its decision. It found that several key issues that are central to the U.S. International Trade Commission's determination of material injury were not based on substantial evidence, and were therefore inconsistent with U.S. law. It remanded the determination back to the commission. (1540)This decision, while it did not immediately put an end to the U.S. duties, was an important step in the right direction. While the commission chose not to substantively alter its determination in this first instance, we will continue to pursue our claim and seek that the panel once again find this first redetermination to be inconsistent with U.S. law.Our goal through this process is for the commission to reverse its initial determination and find that there was in fact no injury to U.S. industry, or be directed to do so by the NAFTA panel. This process may yet take some time and we will pursue it over the course of the coming year. If a finding of no injury is made, the basis for the imposition of duties disappears and the duties would be lifted.Canada is pursuing two other NAFTA challenges against the United States Department of Commerce's final countervailing and anti-dumping duty determinations. We are still in the process of panel formation for those cases.We are also pursuing challenges of two duty determinations through the WTO dispute settlement system. Panel hearings for these two WTO challenges have already taken place. The more complicated and perhaps more impactful of the two challenges is our challenge of the countervailing duty determination. The WTO panel has held two hearings on this challenge over the past year where Canada presented several days of arguments to the panel and numerous written submissions. We expect a panel decision to be issued sometime in the summer.Under normal circumstances, WTO panel decisions can be appealed, as Canada has done in the case of our anti-dumping duty determination challenge. However, the current impasse at the WTO over the appointment of new appellate body members will delay any final resolution of these two challenges, which is why it is important that we continue to pursue the challenges under NAFTA's chapter 19.While these legal processes unfold we are working closely with the provinces and industry. A legal counsel group exists that allows the Government of Canada counsel to work directly with counsel representing the provinces, industry associations and individual companies. This is truly a Team Canada approach that ensures that our legal arguments are as effective as possible.Beyond the legal processes, important interactions continue with U.S. decision-makers to try to advance discussions toward a solution to the current dispute. The Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of International Trade continue to be actively engaged on this file. Every opportunity is taken to raise the issue with U.S. counterparts, members of Congress and state-level officials.The Deputy Prime Minister maintains a regular dialogue on softwood lumber with Secretary Ross at the Department of Commerce, and United States Trade Representative Lighthizer. Most recently, she and several premiers met with USTR Lighthizer in Washington where discussion on the softwood lumber file took place.The Deputy Prime Minister also maintains a direct dialogue with Canadian industry stakeholders, union leaders and premiers to understand the various perspectives on this dispute across the country. Provincial governments and stakeholders have generally expressed strong support for the continued pursuit of litigation under NAFTA and at the WTO, recognizing that future legal decisions will strengthen Canada's position in the negotiation of a new softwood lumber agreement.The Government of Canada therefore continues to pursue a vigorous set of legal challenges while also continuously looking for opportunities to engage with the U.S. government in discussions toward a new softwood lumber agreement. Canada continues to believe that a negotiated agreement with the United States is in both countries' best interests.Unfortunately, the U.S. industry has blocked the U.S. administration from engaging meaningfully in negotiations, preferring the continued imposition of duties and the higher lumber prices caused by these tariffs to the detriment of U.S. consumers. In the meantime, we understand the harmful impact that U.S. duties have on workers and communities that rely on this important segment of Canada's forest sector.In June 2017, the government announced the $867-million softwood lumber action plan over three years to support the needs of affected workers, communities and industry. An additional $251 million was allocated through budget 2019 to Natural Resources Canada's forest-sector innovation and diversification programs.Global Affairs Canada sees continued trade diversification as critical to the future health of Canada's forest industries. This will help to sustain and grow Canadian forest sector jobs and support the communities that depend on these industries.Global Affairs Canada supports forest product innovators in finding technology partners, foreign investors and new market opportunities for their next generation forest products, including bioproducts. Global Affairs Canada works closely with provinces and territories in promoting and advocating for Canada's environmental reputation in markets around the world.Canada's bilateral and multilateral economic and trade agreements, either concluded or under negotiation, aim at increasing the international competitiveness of our natural resource industries, including the forest sector. For instance, the comprehensive economic and trade agreement with the European Union and the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership have opened up new export opportunities for the Canadian forest sector in Europe and Asia.(1545) The government's trade diversification strategy features an investment of $290 million over five years to help Canadian businesses export and grow by strengthening the trade commissioner service and enhancing the support it provides to Canadian exporters, including those in the forest sector.In conclusion, we recognize that the United States will continue to be the most important market for Canadian lumber exporters. Analysis suggests that the gap between U.S. demand and U.S. supply of softwood lumber will actually increase over the next decade, so the United States will need more imports.Naturally, because of geographic proximity and close commercial links, Canada is best placed to supply this demand. As a result, we are confident that a settlement that brings stability and predictability to the softwood lumber industry is the best option for both countries.Throughout this entire process, we have worked closely with the provinces, territories and industry stakeholders to ensure a united Canadian approach to this dispute. We will continue to work closely as we move forward.Thank you, again, for this invitation to appear today. My colleagues and I look forward to your questions.Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentEconomic diversificationForest products industryInvestor-state dispute settlementSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreementsWorld Trade Organization610633961063406106341610634261063436106344JamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59265CathyMcLeodCathy-McLeodKamloops—Thompson—CaribooConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/McLeodCathy_CPC.jpgInterventionMrs. Cathy McLeod (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, CPC): (1545)[English]Thank you to the panellists.As you might imagine, this is a critical issue in many of our ridings. Certainly, I feel I'm representing ground zero of part of the crisis.As you indicated, there are many causes. Of course, there's certainly an impact, with a 20% effect on the prices.I understand that in 2017 there was almost a negotiated settlement. Of course, it's not clear what happened there. However, since that time, although you talk about a negotiated settlement being the preferred option, I notice that the government did not put it as a priority in the new NAFTA negotiations, nor is it in the minister's mandate letter.Therefore, would it be reasonable to say that you believe the solution is going to be coming through this series of court challenges? Clearly, we would have anticipated seeing it as a priority for the government, either as a NAFTA priority or in the minister's mandate letter.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industrySoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements61063676106368JamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreArunAlexanderArunAlexanderArun-AlexanderInterventionMr. Arun Alexander: (1545)[English]I understand that during the NAFTA negotiations it was a priority to raise the softwood lumber issues with the U.S. negotiators. However, the U.S. negotiators were unwilling to engage meaningfully on settling the softwood lumber dispute during NAFTA negotiations.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industrySoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6106369CathyMcLeodKamloops—Thompson—CaribooCathyMcLeodKamloops—Thompson—Cariboo//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): (1605)[English]Thank you, gentlemen, for your comments and for sharing this information with us.I just have a couple questions that I will ask for a little more clarity. You spoke about the three challenges that were going through NAFTA and the two that were going through the WTO. Why are we proceeding with both NAFTA and WTO challenges? Could you talk about that a little bit?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industryInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreementsWorld Trade Organization (WTO) Agriculture Negotiations6106439JamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreMichaelOwenMichaelOwenMichael-OwenInterventionMr. Michael Owen: (1605)[English]That's an excellent question.Essentially, we have two systems of law in these two different fora. Under the WTO, the law is an international treaty. For the WTO agreements in particular—the subsidies and countervailing measures agreement, and the WTO anti-dumping agreement—treaty text is interpreted under international law.Under NAFTA, chapter 19, or CUSMA, chapter 10, what you're looking at is the application of U.S. law. Often, the two systems are very similar. For example, on the subsidy side, the main provision under the WTO is article 14(d) of the SCM agreement. It's United States code 1677 under U.S. law. They're the same, almost word for word.Obviously, there is different case law that's come out of the two systems. Under U.S. law, there is jurisprudence that's developed by the court system, and the WTO has its own jurisprudence that has been developed. In some cases, it might be better to go before the WTO on an issue. For example, on dumping, there's something called “zeroing”, which the WTO has found to be inconsistent, whereas the U.S. courts have traditionally found to be consistent with U.S. law.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industryInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreementsWorld Trade Organization (WTO) Agriculture Negotiations6106442HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1605)[English]Moving forward, knowing that we do have these five challenges, what will happen once we have a new agreement in place? Those that have been started under the old system and now will be.... What will that look like?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industryInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements6106444MichaelOwenMichaelOwenMichaelOwenMichael-OwenInterventionMr. Michael Owen: (1605)[English]I had a close colleague of mine who worked on that for the last agreement, and essentially all of this litigation had to be settled as part of the agreement. Part of the last softwood lumber agreement is a gigantic annex with all of the cases that were settled as a result of the agreement.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industryInvestor-state dispute settlementSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6106445HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105186EricMelilloEric-MelilloKenoraConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MelilloEric_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Eric Melillo: (1610)[English]Thank you, but I may have to respectfully disagree with some aspects of that. Kenora Forest Products, a mill in my riding, has recently closed. They indicated that the softwood lumber dispute was the primary reason; that dragged them down. It definitely is having an effect for sure, I would say.I'll change gears slightly towards CUSMA. Hopefully, it will soon be coming into force. What sort of impact will that have in terms of continuing the negotiations of the softwood agreement?Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industrySoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6106461ColinBarkerArunAlexanderArunAlexanderArun-AlexanderInterventionMr. Arun Alexander: (1610)[English]I don't think CUSMA and the softwood lumber agreement are directly related in that respect. However, I think the goodwill we've achieved with the United States—the co-operation and the relationships that the Deputy Prime Minister especially has developed with Secretary Ross and USTR Lighthizer—can only be positive for moving forward in the softwood lumber discussions. Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industrySoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6106462EricMelilloKenoraEricMelilloKenora//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105186EricMelilloEric-MelilloKenoraConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MelilloEric_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Eric Melillo: (1610)[English]Obviously, this is something that impacts us greatly in Canada, and in the States maybe not to as great a degree. I suppose the direct question is this: Has there been any interest from the States in settling this dispute?Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industrySoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6106463ArunAlexanderColinBarkerColinBarkerColin-BarkerInterventionMr. Colin Barker: (1615)[English]Again, as we noted, we continue to use every opportunity to explore with our counterparts, as do our ministers and the Deputy Prime Minister and Prime Minister, to see if there is some positive momentum that can be gained from the conclusion of the CUSMA negotiations to try to deal with this remaining irritant in the trading relationship. Again, I think there is interest on the part of the U.S. to do that, but they need their industry to be onside. As my colleague pointed out, the industry has what is essentially a veto over the negotiations. We need them to agree to any final deal. So until their own industry is willing, the U.S. administration has been reluctant to engage.Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industrySoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6106464EricMelilloKenoraEricMelilloKenora//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105186EricMelilloEric-MelilloKenoraConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MelilloEric_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Eric Melillo: (1615)[English]Why do you feel that their industry maybe isn't willing? Is there not any incentive, at this point, in the industry? What would be their incentive for coming on board?Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industrySoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6106465ColinBarkerColinBarkerColinBarkerColin-BarkerInterventionMr. Colin Barker: (1615)[English] Certainly I think they view the higher prices that the duties cause to be to their benefit. Higher prices in the States means they benefit as companies selling softwood lumber. As was mentioned in our opening statement, the loser in this in the U.S., in any event, is the U.S. consumer who is trying to buy a house, build a house, or do renovations. They are the ones who are going to indirectly pay this 20% premium being placed on these building products. That's why the National Association of Home Builders in the U.S. has repeatedly made representations to the U.S. administration on this point, indicating that the tariffs are increasing the price of homes in the U.S., pricing hundreds of thousands of people out of the housing market. That's the unfortunate side effect of this, but of course, the lumber industry there is interested in having those higher prices, having that disruption. It's only, again, through the success of litigation, where through the litigation we were able to curtail the ability of the U.S. Department of Commerce to impose those duties, that we are eventually able to convince the U.S. industry that it's in their interest to return to the table. Canada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForest products industrySoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements610646661064676106468EricMelilloKenoraJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1135)[English]I will just squeeze one more question in. We're seeing NAFTA go through our Parliament and the acceptance of that. We had done a lot on and there was a promise from the minister at the time to create a gender chapter within NAFTA. However, what we heard quite often from experts was that it's not just about one chapter. I mean, for women and indigenous people, you couldn't just limit it to one chapter; you had to, in much the same say that you—Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment for Women and Gender EqualityGender-based analysisSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements6085800MaryamMonsefHon.Peterborough—KawarthaKarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1135)[English]All right.In much the same way that you had to put a gender-based lens on all legislation, you would do this for international agreements, as well. What are you doing to move forward on that?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment for Women and Gender EqualityGender-based analysisSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements6085803KarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonKarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88922MaryamMonsefHon.Maryam-MonsefPeterborough—KawarthaLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/MonsefMaryam_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Maryam Monsef: (1135)[English]Gender, environment and labour are among the considerations we've taken with NAFTA, and there are agreements that have a specific gender chapter while they take all of that into account.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment for Women and Gender EqualityGender-based analysisSupplementary estimates (B) 2019-2020Trade agreements6085805KarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—LondonKarenVecchioElgin—Middlesex—London//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)): (0900)[English] I call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on International Trade. Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, February 6, 2020, we are studying Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican States.Today we are going to be doing clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-4. We are joined by the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, with Nicola Waterfield, deputy director, trade negotiations, North America division; Steve Verheul, chief negotiator and assistant deputy minister, trade policy and negotiations; Robert Brookfield, director general, trade law, deputy legal adviser; Andrew McCracken, director, trade negotiations, North America division; and Vickie Iacobellis, counsel, trade law bureau.Thanks to all of you for coming this morning. Before we commence our clause-by-clause consideration, we will hear from Ms. Bendayan.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements60738386073839607384060738416073842RachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (0900)[English]Further to some discussions that were had last night at the end of our committee meeting, I would like to put forward a proposal for discussion and vote, if my colleagues so wish this morning. That is, further to the hearing of testimony these past two weeks: That the committee tasks the analysts to prepare a letter from the committee to the Deputy Prime Minister for release after the Royal Assent of Bill C-4; and that the letter briefly summarize the testimony of witnesses and the recommendations made by witnesses for the Deputy Prime Minister to consider. Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements607384360738446073845Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Surrey—Newton, Lib.): (0900)[English]I think this is a great idea. We should call the question on this.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6073848Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): (0900)[English]That's great. I am in favour of this. We heard testimony last night and I just think of Ken, the one in softwood lumber, a finisher. He had a message but he said it never gets heard. This is a chance for that message to be heard.I think it's a good idea. I'm in favour of it, for sure.(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6073850607385160738526073853Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0900)[English] That's carried unanimously. We have a great committee.Before we go into clause-by-clause consideration, given the fact that we have four new members at committee and it's their first time with clause-by-clause, I will briefly read out some of the instructions and the way that it will flow this morning.As the name indicates, this is an examination of all of the clauses in the order in which they appear in the bill. I will call each clause successively and each clause is subject to debate and a vote. If there is an amendment to the clause in question, I will recognize the member proposing it, who may explain it. The amendment will then be open for debate. When no further members wish to intervene, the amendment will be voted on. Amendments will be considered in the order in which they appear in the package that each member has received from the clerk.In addition to having to be properly drafted in a legal sense, amendments must also be procedurally admissible. The chair may be called upon to rule amendments inadmissible if they go against the principle of the bill or beyond the scope of the bill, both of which were adopted by the House when it agreed to the bill at second reading, or if they offend the financial prerogative of the Crown. If you wish to eliminate a clause of the bill altogether, the proper course of action is to vote against that clause when the time comes, not to propose an amendment to delete it. As indicated earlier, the committee will go through the amendments in the order in which they appear and vote on them one at a time. Amendments have been given a number in the top right corner of each page to indicate which party submitted them. There is no need for a seconder to move an amendment. Once moved, though, you will need unanimous consent to withdraw it.During debate on an amendment, members are permitted to move subamendments. These subamendments do not require the approval of the mover of the amendment. Only one subamendment will be considered at a time and subamendments cannot be amended. Once every clause has been voted on, the committee will vote on the title and on the bill itself. If any amendments have been adopted by the committee, an order to reprint the bill will be required so that the House has a proper copy for use at report stage.Finally, the committee will have to order the chair to report the bill to the House. That report contains only the text of any adopted amendments as well as an indication of any deleted clauses. Speaking to any of the amendments is for five minutes per clause, per party, as we move forward.Mr. Hoback.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements607385460738556073856607385760738586073859607386060738616073862RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (0905)[English]Madam Chair, in light of speeding things up, I know that in the past when I was chairing, clauses were grouped when there was no controversy amongst the members. I hope you'll do that today.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements6073863Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (0905)[English]I second that idea by Mr. Hoback.Let us get this bill through the House ASAP. I would recommend that we move to clause 1, and that clauses 2 to 12 be carried.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements607386660738676073868Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0905)[English]All right.Pursuant to standing order 75(1) consideration of clause 1, which is the short title, is postponed to the end of all of the clauses.Mr. Blaikie.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements607386960738706073871SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): (0905)[English]I just wanted to state for the record that I agree with grouping the clauses.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements6073872Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0905)[English]Thank you very much.(On clause 2)Mr. Blaikie, do you wish to speak to this?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements607387360738746073875DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (0905)[English]I do, thank you.The amendment that I'm moving to clause 2 is to add a definition for “indigenous peoples of Canada” to the bill . This is necessary in order to make a further amendment, which would introduce a non-derogation clause. We heard about that in the testimony from the AFN. It's consistent with the report that the Senate made on non-derogation clauses in 2007, I believe. I think this is part of the value-added detailed work that legislators can do. Particularly when we're talking about reconciliation, these are some of the things we can do to move forward on that path, which is why we're happy to be moving this amendment today.I do have to say, in the event that we don't add the definition, that is to say, if this amendment is voted down, I don't think there would be much point in moving the subsequent amendment, which is the actual non-derogation clause, because without the definition it wouldn't make sense.I consider us to be voting effectively on the non-derogation clause with respect to this amendment. If it fails, I won't be moving my other amendment.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements6073876607387760738786073879Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (0905)[English]Yes, this is one of those examples of where, if we had more time, I would like to look a much closer at it, because it may be a good idea. However, I definitely want to make sure it doesn't have any negative consequences on moving the legislation forward or create a situation where we end up being stalled or have to renegotiate.That is my holdback on that. I'm not against it necessarily; I would just like to have more information. I would like to get that on the record right now.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements60738816073882Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (0910)[English]Madam Chair, I would ask that we have a recorded vote.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements6073884SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (0910)[English]Madam Chair, I'd like to speak.My colleague Mr. Blaikie indicated that if NDP-1 does not move forward, he will not pursue amendments NDP-2 and NDP-3, so I would like to speak to all of them as a whole.First, as I indicated to my colleague yesterday, the intent of this amendment is positive, and we on this side are very much in favour of the spirit and the intent of it. It is one of the reasons our main objective for the new NAFTA was to better reflect the interests of indigenous peoples. We indeed worked very closely with Perry Bellegarde and others to secure important clarity in the form of a general exception related to the rights of indigenous peoples as well as policy flexibility for indigenous peoples and indigenous-owned businesses in CUSMA.That being said, this amendment is a departure from our other free trade agreements. It does cause some legal inconsistencies with other FTAs that Canada has signed. I would also note, as I'm sure everybody in this room knows, that Canada's obligations to indigenous peoples are enshrined in the Canadian Constitution, which supersedes all other legislation, including CUSMA, and renders these amendments redundant.For that reason, Madam Chair, we will not be voting in favour of these amendments.(Amendment negatived: nays 5; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])(Clause 2 agreed to)C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsRecorded divisionsTrade agreements6073886607388760738886073889607389060738916073892DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0910)[English]Yes. I'm going to do that. I need unanimous consent to group clause 3 to clause 5.Some hon. members: Agreed. (Clauses 3 to 5 inclusive agreed to)The Chair: Mr. Blaikie, you're not moving your new clause 5.1.May I have unanimous consent to group clauses 6 to 212?Some hon. members: Agreed. (Clauses 6 to 212 inclusive agreed to)The Chair: This is a wonderful committee. We're now looking at a new clause which Mr. Manly and the Green Party have proposed. Do you wish to speak to it, Mr. Manly?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements60738956073896607389760738986073899607390060739016073902607390360739046073905SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonPaulManlyNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89485PaulManlyPaul-ManlyNanaimo—LadysmithGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ManlyPaul_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Paul Manly (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, GP): (0910)[English]This clause doesn't change the agreement. It changes the way the committee reports on the agreement. Given the debate I've heard in the House of Commons about this agreement, there has been a lot of discussion about transparency. I've heard from the Conservatives that they want to see economic reports. I've heard from the Liberals that in the past they weren't happy with the way agreements were negotiated because they felt they were left out. I think this just adds a level of transparency to reviewing the agreement after it's been signed and ratified and that we can see the socio-economic benefits or drawbacks of the agreement. Proposed clause 212.1 reads:(1) Within two years after the day on which this section comes into force and every two years after that, a review of the socio-economic impacts of the Agreement on Canadians and on the Canadian economy, broken down by industry sector, is to be undertaken by the committee of the Senate, of the House of Commons or of both Houses of Parliament that may be designated or established for the purpose of the review. (2) The committee is to submit a report containing any findings or recommendations that it considers appropriate to the House or Houses of Parliament of which it is a committee.As we move forward into the review of the agreement, this will help Parliament understand the impacts of the agreement. As we move towards that 16-year renegotiation period, we're going to have a better understanding of the impacts for Canadians and Canadian industry. Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements607390660739076073908607390960739106073911Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (0915)[English] I think the spirit is good. Is this the right place to do it? I think as a committee we automatically determine that fate among ourselves. If we decide we want to take on that review, we can do that at any point. It doesn't have to be a specific period. In this agreement there is a review in five years, regardless. We will abstain. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements60739126073913PaulManlyNanaimo—LadysmithDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (0915)[English]I want to echo the comments about transparency. Some of the testimony we heard yesterday talked about how, at the moment, a lot of these mechanisms, whether it's getting an economic impact assessment or whether it's how we consult on trade agreements depends on the culture of the government of the day. Even when you have governments that are doing it relatively better than other governments, there's no guarantee in that. This would provide for a mandatory review. We know there is a sunset clause. That means we are going to be looking at the agreement at some point. It would be good to have that economic information. We know that sometimes you don't get it in a timely way. That point has been belaboured here. I won't do it again. This would be a way of ensuring that we get that information in a timely way, as the negotiations open up as a result of the sunset clause in the agreement, whether people want it there or not. That's why I'll be supporting the amendment today.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements607391460739156073916RandyHobackPrince AlbertJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): (0915)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Manly, for participating in these very important committee meetings.One of the things we have heard over and over again since I've been at this and right from the get-go, in particular with the section 232 tariffs on steel and whatnot, is that when Trump first positioned this, he wanted it to sunset in five years. We heard loud and clear from businesses and unions that they need certainty and that to constantly be at this would not be good. So, we negotiated, as you know, the 16 years, but there is that review in five years. It was not a bad thing. It was not a full sunset; however, there is that review in five years. When you're reviewing in five years it means you're probably getting ready the year before to review it, so it's constant.I think Mr. Hoback made an excellent comment. It means that we can review this at any time—in two weeks, not two years, or in two months, if we felt it necessary—and that goes for the Senate as well. There already is that mechanism to review things earlier. If it is seen by any member that it is pertinent, then I think we should.Therefore, because we heard so much over the last number of years about needing certainty for a certain amount of time and not such a short time, we'll be voting against it. Thank you very much for your participation. I think this particular NAFTA deal with its green clauses and green parts of it is pretty exciting moving forward.Again, thank you very much for your amendment, but we will not be supporting it for those reasons.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements607391860739196073920607392160739226073923Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89485PaulManlyPaul-ManlyNanaimo—LadysmithGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ManlyPaul_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Paul Manly: (0915)[English]May I ask for a recorded vote on this?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsTrade agreements6073926Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0915)[English]Yes, you may.(Amendment negatived: nays 5; yeas 2)(Clause 213 agreed to)(Schedules 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to) Now on to the short title. The new NAFTA, how's that?Some hon. members: Oh, oh!The Chair: It reads, “This Act may be cited as the Canada–United States–Mexico Agreement Implementation Act.”Shall the short title carry?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Shall the title carry?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Shall the bill carry?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Shall the chair report the bill to the House? Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: We are going to try as a team to present the bill at 10 o'clock when the House convenes.Some hon. members: Hear, hear!The Chair: Wonderful. Thank you to all of the wonderful people who have done all of this excellent work for us, our support staff.Mr. Hoback.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClause-by-clause studyGovernment billsRecorded divisionsTrade agreements6073927607392860739296073930607393160739326073933607393460739356073936607393760739386073939607394060739416073942607394360739446073945PaulManlyNanaimo—LadysmithRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)): (1540)[English]I call the meeting to order. Pursuant to the order of reference for Thursday, February 6, 2020, we are studying Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican States.Welcome to our witnesses who are here by teleconference and those with us in the meeting room. By video conference from Niagara Falls, we have CanadaBW Logistics, Kevin Jacobi, executive director; and from Tanzania, Eddy Peréz, international policy analyst with Climate Action Network Canada.Here with us in Ottawa, from DECAST, we have Jim Tully, executive vice-president. We are expecting Bob Benner, from Hamill Agricultural Processing Solutions, shortly. We will go with the video conference. Mr. Peréz, you are in Tanzania and I understand that you don't have the best connection in the world, so we will open with your comments, sir.Please go ahead.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60882336088234608823560882366088237EddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz (International Policy Analyst, Climate Action Network Canada): (1540)[English] Thank you very much.My apologies for the quality of the video. I am in Tanzania, in the traditional land of the Wa-arusha.On behalf of Client Action Network Canada, we thank you for the invitation to address the Standing Committee on International Trade.Climate Action Network Canada is the country's largest network of organizations working on climate policy, and the sister organization of the world's largest network of environmental organizations, regrouping more than 1,300 groups around the world.I'd like to begin these remarks by standing in solidarity with, and highlight and support the work throughout 2018 and 2019, and the comments by member organizations like the Canadian Labour Congress, Unifor, the Assembly of First Nations, the steelworkers, and many other members who participated in the consultations and worked closely on NAFTA 2.0. I also support comments by our allies such as the Council of Canadians.For over 25 years, NAFTA has contributed to climate change, toxic pollution, economic insecurity, and social inequality and environmental deregulation. This is a result of a trade system that Canada has prioritized in favour of corporations over people.In the current climate crisis, we can't continue to promote trade models that lock ourselves into multi-decade trade deals that add fuel to a house on fire.The questions that we have for you are as follows. Is the current CUSMA on the right side of history? Can we seriously use this trade deal to tackle climate change and toxic pollution? How is the new version of NAFTA different from the last one? Will it reassure those who are working inside and outside of this Parliament to ensure Canada upholds its climate obligations and responsibilities?We therefore recognize, however, that the absence of any energy proportionality provision in NAFTA 2.0 is a clear win in environmental terms. The same applies to the deletion of ISDS. But is this enough?Democrats in the United States voted against the ratification of the agreement because it does not address climate change, the greatest threat facing our planet.Now that Canada is contemplating its ratification, we should focus on how to create domestic safeguards to ensure that while Canada implements this agreement, it does so while upholding its environmental and climate obligations.Let me just remind the committee of the current state of play.CUSMA fails to address, acknowledge or even mention the climate crisis. Most of the provisions in the environmental chapter are vague and remain largely unenforceable. Chapter 28 provides new avenues for corporations to influence regulation.Considerable attention was given to fishing subsidies. However, that is clearly not the case for fossil fuel subsidies, which are similarly destructive and tell a sad story of North American's ongoing support for the high-carbon-intensive economy.CUSMA shows again the deep deprioritization of the environment chapter to a point where specific wins, like the elimination of ISDS, are undermined by the complete lack of reference to environmental governance; and there is no mention of UNDRIP.This deal hardly mentions pollution, and it does not include specific and binding terms to address documented pollution dumping. There are no independent and binding enforcement systems for environmental terms and it does not create an independent body to investigate and initiate cases against environmental abuses.How do we move forward? These are quick recommendations from Climate Action Network.For us, climate action alone won't stand if it does not ensure that trade deals protect the rights of workers and also recognize the rights of indigenous peoples.Acknowledging that because of the current political context, Canada was not able to ensure meaningful progress to include climate in the current text is not enough. Canada must ensure that this trade deal does not block our ability to respect our climate obligations and commitments.How do we move forward?Canada has committed to increase its climate targets and to reach net-zero emissions by 2050. Canada has committed to provide new nationally determined contributions, and those new NDCs rely heavily on expanding renewable energy, so there may be more disputes to come and we need to be prepared.Here is what we encourage you to do.Parliament should request an analysis on how this trade deal can support further climate policy, particularly in three key areas. The first is how CUSMA facilitates, or not, the trade of climate friendly goods and services and further strengthens the promotion of Canada's climate objectives. The second is how trade rules, at the very least, are not a barrier to climate policy goals. The third is how trade deals impact the international transfer of mitigation outcomes under article 6 of the Paris Agreement, particularly in the context of the Quebec-California cap and trade system.(1545) Finally, we are way behind where we need to be. In this climate crisis, achieving climate objectives should be considered to be a legitimate reason for departing from trade rules. Such considerations are being considered in the EU. Weak clauses, even when enforceable, are not a guarantee that a trade deal can be seen as a tool for climate action.Thank you very much.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementClimate Action Network CanadaClimate change and global warmingEmissions tradingEnergy and fuelEnvironmental protectionFisheries policyFossil fuelsGovernment billsGreen economyIndigenous peoplesInvestor-state dispute settlementLabour lawParis Agreement under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate ChangeTrade agreements60882386088239608824060882416088242608824360882446088245608824660882476088248608824960882506088251608825260882536088254608825560882566088257608825860882596088260608826160882626088263Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKevinJacobiKevin-JacobiInterventionMr. Kevin Jacobi (Executive Director, CanadaBW Logistics Inc.): (1545)[English] Thank you very much. I appreciate being asked to be part of this conversation.My name is Kevin Jacobi. I'm executive director for CanadaBW Logistics, located in Niagara Falls, Ontario.To put it in context, my company is an import-export development company. We help local businesses support expansion of their exporting needs, as well as international companies find a home here in Niagara, for them to be part of our community and develop their businesses within the Canadian infrastructure.I'm here to speak in support of the USMCA and the ratifications that are being done, in the hopes that it's going to give stability to our companies here.We have a number of companies whose opportunities have been greatly impacted by changes in tariffs subjugating such things as steel and aluminum. Our client base here develop contracts between their suppliers and the people they're selling to that can last more over two to three years. When tariffs come in the middle of a contract, we don't have the opportunity to adapt or to evolve what we're trying to do as businesses. It impacts our margins or it dissolves our company. Working with our chambers of commerce here, as well as being the executive director for both the Niagara Industrial Association and the World Trade Center Buffalo Niagara chapter, we see there being dramatic impacts from this uncertainty without this deal being ratified.What we're hoping to see through ratification is stability in the market. We understand that there are going to be pluses and minuses, depending on the sector of business that our companies are in. However, we'll have the rules in place to allow us to make decisions that we can impact and can forecast beyond just the short term. We're firmly in the process of having.... I think we have a very small window for us to ratify, based on the political climate in the United States. If we don't take action soon, we may lose that window of opportunity.Niagara—and Niagara is one of the largest trade networks across Canada, being a border community—has the busiest border crossing for people coming back and forth from Canada and the U.S., but it is also the second most important border crossing when it comes to total value of freight. We are one of the few areas in Ontario with a trade surplus.The ratification of the NAFTA 2.0 or USMCA will solidify our ability to impact Canada's economy, as well as attract businesses and investment into our Canadian business cycle. One thing we do with my company—what we try to accomplish here—is to develop a landing point for international companies to develop manufacturing and marketing opportunities within our region to better impact their ability to do business with both Canada and the U.S.We understand that Canada is a very small market compared to the U.S.. However, we are seen across the world as a stable market, a place of doing business in an environment that respects fair trade and other cultures. We give a landing point that allows them to have fair access to both Canada and the U.S. and, of course, Mexico, to a limited extent. We don't really have as much going here for Niagara in that respect.We hope that the committee will take the advice of the people who are presenting to move forward with ratification and give Canadian businesses a stable platform for us to grow our communities.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanadaBW Logistics Inc.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements608826660882676088268608826960882706088271608827260882736088274608827560882766088277Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully (Executive Vice-President, DECAST): (1550)[English] Good afternoon. Thank you for allowing me to present before this committee. My name is Jim Tully. I'm the executive vice-president of DECAST Limited.DECAST is a manufacturer of precast concrete infrastructure products and is located just outside of Toronto. We directly employ over 500 people, and our supply chain affects another 3,000 people. While NAFTA and now CUSMA should provide open markets to both sides of the border, history has shown us that this is not the case. There are several existing U.S. policies that have affected small to mid-sized companies like DECAST: buy America; buy American; the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act; and President Trump's executive orders on U.S. content. We've been affected over the last few years in the following ways. Under buy American, for construction projects, contractors must use construction materials that are 100% manufactured in the U.S., with greater than 50% of materials coming from the U.S. Canada is exempt for contracts greater than $10 million; however, most of the projects that we bid on fall under this amount. Many states and municipalities also use similar geographic production requirements.Under President Trump's executive orders, President Trump has clearly stated that he wants to buy American first and has incorporated this concept into three executive orders affecting buy America and buy American policies. These executive orders create more uncertainty for companies like DECAST. The direct result of these policies has been that the Canadian market for infrastructure products is wide open to U.S. companies, allowing for predatory pricing and dumping. In 2018, DECAST lost the equivalent of 41 full-time jobs on projects lost to imports of U.S. steel pipe. Our understanding of the pricing by U.S. manufacturers is that it was at or below the cost to manufacture. Just last week in Winnipeg, a U.S. pipe manufacturer from Texas undercut local pipe producers. Given the distance they had to ship, they are selling at or below their cost. In conclusion, to help manufacturers like DECAST Limited, Canada should impose domestic content preference on its infrastructure funding to provinces and municipalities, as recommended by the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters. This type of domestic content preference could be implemented under the concept of reciprocity to account for true and open free trade.Thank you for your time.Building and construction industryBuy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDecastGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements608828060882816088282608828360882846088285608828660882876088288Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105410TerryDowdallTerry-DowdallSimcoe—GreyConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DowdallTerry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Dowdall (Simcoe—Grey, CPC): (1555)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair, and I thank my colleague Chris Lewis for allowing me this time today.As a former mayor and a deputy warden and warden of the County of Simcoe, I've had the opportunity through the years to work with the organization that is here to present today. I want to thank you, Mr. Tully, for being here. I know you're a very busy man. As you said at the beginning, yours is a company that's grown quite a bit through the years. We had expansions in 2011, 2012 and 2016, and in 2019, I believe it was a $12-million expansion and 35,000 square feet as well. It is a growing company. It has done very well and in fact celebrated its 35th anniversary. It is incredible in today's economy to have that length of time. It's a large employer and, as well, during its 30-year anniversary, presented cheques of $15,000 to two local charities, the Women's and Children's Shelter of Barrie and, in Alliston, My Sister's Place. Through the years, this organization has donated much time and energy and is one of the key cogs, quite frankly, in Simcoe—Grey. I had the opportunity through the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to help with that growth you were having in the industry to build upon what you have, and I know that through the years there sometimes has been a lot of red tape from organization. As well, we had the steel policy for a while and, at the end, the buy American policy.Certainly our party believes in free trade, and ideally with less government involvement. I just wondered if you could speak a little more on how free trade affects you and, if we could make the playing field even, how that would work. I have another question. I know that there's a $186-billion rollout for municipalities for infrastructure projects that, from what I gather, aren't getting out there in time. Could you speak also to the amount of business you get through the cities and the municipalities, how important this is for the municipalities that need that infrastructure and how important it is for you and for your organization to grow and expand once again?Building and construction industryBuy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements60882916088292608829360882946088295608829660882976088298Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1555)[English] From our perspective, the real effect on us has been that we have no ability to bid on U.S. jobs. We have no ability because of the uncertainty that's caused by buy America and buy American policies and by these executive orders that have come out. By the time the local proponent who's asked us to give them a price figures out whether they can use us as a supplier, the bids are closed. It's too late. So, we're blocked on bidding on pretty well any project.How this affects us is that our U.S. competition—and I'm all for open and free competition when it's equal—has the ability to come into Canada to bid on jobs, and they use predatory pricing when they come up here. They use pricing that covers maybe their overheads, and they don't look at profit. They're just dumping. If I told you the prices that went in to Winnipeg last week, it's ridiculous. They're coming out of Texas, and they're 25% below the local guy. It's unacceptable.They do this freely, knowing that we have no ability to retaliate. That's our real problem. Like I said, from my perspective, reciprocity is the answer: If you put this kind of policy on us, we do the same back. That's the only clear answer.It worked about a decade ago when the FCM canvassed the federal government and was able to put a reciprocity clause into force. Right away, the U.S. took off the limitations on Canada. If we can do that again, especially in this climate that we're sitting in today, that would have a great effect and help companies like ours.Building and construction industryBuy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements6088299608830060883016088302TerryDowdallSimcoe—GreyTerryDowdallSimcoe—Grey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105410TerryDowdallTerry-DowdallSimcoe—GreyConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DowdallTerry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Dowdall: (1600)[English]Just to follow up on the importance of infrastructure to the City of Toronto, as an example, our large cities that need it as well, and the type of work that you're doing and how it could have an effect, the American part of it, if you're not bidding on those contracts, how it will hurt you.... All of those expansions were pretty much in line with tender contracts at the time. You do the major subway. You do the major girders that people see when they're driving in Ontario here on the 401. I don't know if you can give an update on the importance of that as well.Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements6088303JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1600)[English]It's hugely important to us. The infrastructure is a massive part of what we produce for. I'll give you some examples. In the Ottawa area, we're working with the two LRT proponents. We're supplying all of the girders that will be used in those elevated sections of those LRT lines that are being built in Ottawa. Any delay in infrastructure projects that come out is a delay of work for us. We're always pushing to see that funding flows freely and flows in a proper amount of time.Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements6088304TerryDowdallSimcoe—GreyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1600)[English]Okay.First of all, I want to thank you for your advocacy on the environment. That's great.As you very well know, we believe in the environment. You mentioned already that by 2050 we will have zero net emissions. We believe that the commitments to high levels of environmental protection are an important part of the trade agreements as well, as they protect our workers and our planet, particularly when we talk about CUSMA. This is the first-ever trade agreement with an enforceable environment chapter. This replaces the separate agreements that we had in the previous agreements.As I come from British Columbia, marine environment is very important to me—Randeep comes from there as well. It upholds air quality and fights marine pollution. Wouldn't you agree that these are the positive steps moving forward?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6088311608831260883136088314EddyPerézEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1600)[English] It's fair to say, as I mentioned in my statement, first of all, the approach of Canada and the U.S. on trade does require some type of enforceability—for example, for the environment chapter and other chapters. That said, enforceability does not mean that the clauses that countries agree to respect are ambitious enough to ensure that trade between two or three partners continues to negatively impact climate change. Let me just give you a couple of examples of things that are not in CUSMA, and while this deal in some ways brings some key, important elements of progress, it does not allow for greater climate protection. First, there are no binding climate standards within the text. Key Democratic leaders, such as the head of the Senate for the Democrats, voted against this deal. He said it did not address or mention the climate crisis. The current NAFTA 2.0, far from including any climate standards, fails to even mention climate change. It is a glaring omission, with in fact NAFTA's incentive for corporations to dodge the hard-fought clean energy policies of the U.S. by moving to Mexico, for example, and eliminating jobs and perpetrating climate pollution.You mentioned marine protection, and that is great. As I said in my statement, the three countries that are partners for the CUSMA actually address subsidies for fisheries, but there is no mention, for example, of how fossil fuel subsidies are going to be tackled by countries and reduced in order to encourage, and actually stop distortion in, the markets on renewables. On clean air, water and land standards, the deal barely mentions pollution and it fails to include specific and binding terms to actually address documented dumping of pollutants. For example, the text recognizes that air pollution is a serious threat to public health, and in that sense, you and I agree. However, it fails to include a single binding rule to reduce the air pollution that NAFTA has exacerbated.From the 2018 version of the text to the 2019 revision, this revision actually repeats these failures and omits essential limits on air, water or land pollution. These are just some examples for you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60883156088316608831760883186088319608832060883216088322SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1605)[English]Mr. Jacobi, yours is a border town. So is Surrey, British Columbia, and we have a lot of logistics companies as well. I appreciate you supporting CUSMA.Could you tell logistics companies in my part of the world how this will benefit them when they trade or move goods across the borders?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements60883236088324EddyPerézKevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevin-JacobiInterventionMr. Kevin Jacobi: (1605)[English]I'd be happy to.We have to look at the idea of the ratification of this NAFTA 2.0 as being greater than just our trade between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico. I'm very proud of what this government and past governments have done to create free trade agreements across the world. What we allow through our participation in the North American free trade agreements is access for our partners in other countries to develop their presence within our communities using logistics companies such as mine, in my area, and the logistics companies in your area as well, to be able to attract these other countries to develop partnerships for existing manufacturing and develop products that are syntheses of ideas and of working components between multiple countries to become products of Canada that would then have greater access to the Canada-U.S.-Mexico ability of a supply chain. That's how we direct ourselves—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements6088325608832660883276088328SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1605)[Translation]Hello, Mr. Peréz.Thank you for your presentation, which was very informative.Correct me if I am wrong as I do not want to misquote you. To summarize, you stated that, with respect to the former NAFTA, some progress has been made but it is far from what it should be in the current era of climate change.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements608833560883366088337EddyPerézEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1605)[Translation]That's exactly right. That was a very good summary.I believe that there are two main points to make.First, despite some progress having been made, such as investor arbitration and other small improvements in environmental protection, when we look at the agreement as a whole, this treaty does not do nearly enough for Canada to meet its climate commitments. In my view, this is a major weakness of this agreement.Second, there is absolutely no guarantee that certain provisions of the current treaty will not be strengthened once the current U.S. president is no longer in power. At present, there is no process for reviewing, for example, the co-operation of the three parties. There is also no mention of the climate crisis.Generally speaking, these are major weaknesses.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60883386088339608834060883416088342Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1610)[Translation]There is no mention of the climate crisis or any reference to global environmental agreements.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6088343EddyPerézEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1610)[Translation]Seven multilateral environmental agreements are mentioned, but they are the very same ones mentioned in the former agreement. There have not really been any changes or updates despite the fact that Canada's position on these issues has changed significantly in the past 25 years.The commitments Canada made in 2019 demonstrate a willingness to make more ambitious commitments. Unfortunately, they are not reflected in the agreement with the country's largest economic partner.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60883446088345Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1610)[Translation]You say that the agreement does not contain firm climate commitments, but does it set out some standards on related elements, for example air, water and land quality? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6088346EddyPerézEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1610)[Translation]Yes, it does. There is a desire to reduce air pollution. As I mentioned earlier, there are different provisions with respect to fishing subsidies, but no specific provision forces states to meet specific commitments for air pollution. With the exception of the proportionality provision, there are no provisions that tackle the issue of oil subsidies.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6088347Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1610)[Translation]All right.With respect to disputes or problems, you seem to be pleased that Chapter 11 on investor-state dispute resolution has been removed.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements60883486088349EddyPerézEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1610)[Translation]Of course I am pleased, and for two reasons.Chapter 11 fostered a serious lack of transparency. Since you studied it, you know that this chapter made it possible for companies to abuse in the extreme their rights vis-a-vis governments. Its elimination is a win that I am very happy about. We worked on this with unions and other groups.However, it is not enough. I know that the NDP member has already asked for greater transparency when negotiating future agreements. I am pleased about that, but it shows that other issues need to be resolved in connection with how Canada engages in, signs and ratifies other trade agreements.On the issue of the arbitration system, I would say that there is cognitive dissonance on the part of the Government of Canada, which chose to withdraw this mechanism when dealing with the United States, but continues to value and promote it when negotiating trade agreements with other partners.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements6088350608835160883526088353Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): (1610)[English]Thank you. First of all, thanks to all of our witnesses for appearing here at committee today.I want to continue with Mr. Peréz for a moment. I think you alluded to some examples, so I'm wondering what some of the kinds of mechanisms are that Canada might look at advocating for in trade agreements that might be able to deliver a concrete impact on the environment. In particular, we know that the United States is not a signatory to the Paris Agreement, and that's something we would like to see in the agreement. What are the kinds of mechanisms that we ought to be pitching to our international partners to try to tie environmental goals to economic goals? I think that's crucial to success on the environmental front.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6088358608835960883606088361Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1610)[English]Thank you, Monsieur Blaikie, for the question.I think a lot of the context for the lack of climate provisions within CUSMA relates to the [Technical difficulty--Editor]. We need to be aware of that. That said, there are ways for Canada to address this question at the domestic level. I know that members have been asking for information on the economic impacts of CUSMA and how CUSMA impacts specific industries, and the same applies to climate.As I mentioned at the beginning of my comments, it might be important to specify how CUSMA ends up favouring or maybe not favouring climate friendly groups if CUSMA is able to encourage the exchange of goods that help to reduce carbon emissions over time. This is something that Canada could engage in at the domestic level. That is just for the context of CUSMA.Internationally speaking, the inclusion of binding commitments in trade agreements is the first step for Canada and partners who sign trade agreements with Canada to respect their commitments under the Paris Agreement. Why is this necessary? Because all partners that signed the Paris Agreement do this at the domestic level. Nationally determined contributions are domestically decided and agreed on. There's no issue of sovereignty in the kinds of things that Canada could be wary of because other countries might be pushing these to us because Canada's climate commitments are domestically based. Including these binding commitments so that both Canada and the other partners respect their nationally determined contribution could be a first step.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60883626088363608836460883656088366DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1615)[English]Being mindful of the cost of paperwork and all that, I couldn't help but listen to one of our other witnesses who was here at committee talking about products coming up from Texas being sold at prices that undercut ours—but, of course, the other cost to something like that is the environmental cost of shipping pipe from Texas instead of buying locally.It seems to me that, when we talk about environmental provisions and having some kind of carbon budgeting or a way of trying to account for that environmental cost, there are real issues about not having reciprocity on the pricing side, but it seems to me that there is also the issue that we don't want to be incentivizing people to get products from farther away when there are good local alternatives. There are environmental costs, and trying to work with countries to have some way of assessing those—at least for certain kinds of products or above a certain threshold—might be the kind of mechanism that we're talking about when we're talking about trying to incorporate environmental measures into a trade agreement.I don't know what you think about that, or if you have some other concrete proposals, but I'd be glad to hear them.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements608836760883686088369EddyPerézEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1615)[English]What you mentioned is a first step. You might remember, for example, that when Ontario wanted to prioritize its own renewable energy products, Ontario got sued. I think one key element that we need to understand is that if we don't address this properly—the way you explained it is very clear—as we continue to commit to climate targets and to reduce our emissions, we're going to be forced to buy goods that allow us to reduce those emissions. If that is not properly addressed in trade agreements, we're already allowing for future disputes to take place, because we don't have the necessary mechanisms to let these products come to the country or, for example, as you said, encourage local renewable energy products.The current CUSMA continues to give corporations handouts and the ability, for example, to modify laws and regulation, and that could have an important impact on the evolution of the renewable energy industry in Canada, the United States and Mexico.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60883706088371DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram (Regina—Wascana, CPC): (1615)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us today to share your perspectives.Mr. Tully, I'm particularly interested in your experiences in bidding on U.S. government contracts. Could you walk us through the process that your company goes through when you're bidding on a U.S. government contract as opposed to a Canadian one?Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements608837560883766088377Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1620)[English]Typically, we get approached by a constructor or a large engineering firm asking us if we would provide a quotation into a particular job. I would say, for 99% of the jobs we've been asked to quote in the U.S., at the end of the day our bid wasn't taken, simply because they couldn't verify whether they could accept the product because of the uncertainty put out there by these policies that exist in the U.S. It's a real, real struggle for us.Where we have been successful is when we partnered with local U.S. producers and kind of subsidized what they were producing into a project. Other than that, we really have not been successful.Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements60883786088379MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1620)[English]Which policies of the U.S. in particular are the most problematic for you?Building and construction industryBuy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements6088380JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1620)[English]Buy America. Buy American.Building and construction industryBuy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements6088381MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1620)[English]Okay. Are you experiencing this at the state level too or just the federal government level?Building and construction industryBuy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements6088382JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1620)[English]It's right down to the municipal level—Building and construction industryBuy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements6088383MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—WascanaJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1620)[English]—because when you go to the municipal level, a lot of the time you end up dealing with people who believe that buy America has to mean built in America, sourced in America. They don't really understand the fine mechanics of it, that it's the raw materials that are used within the product that have to be sourced from the U.S.; for example, the steel that's used in the product. We could theoretically meet the requirements, but by the time everyone figures that out and you file all the necessary paperwork, and you're sitting in a three- to four-week bid process, it's not going to happen.Building and construction industryBuy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements60883856088386MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1620)[English]All right. You've talked about your idea of reciprocity with domestic content preference. Were you planning that on both the federal and provincial levels in Canada? Could you explain what you had in mind for how that would work?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsProtectionismTrade agreements6088387JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1620)[English]A lot of what we've done in the past is that we've been focusing on the FCM and trying to deal at that level and saying push for reciprocity as you did a decade ago when you were able to get around these policies and Canadian products were accepted. We're not a massive exporter. We make concrete. Concrete's big and heavy. It's a tough thing to export, so our focus would be in the northeastern U.S. when we would sell stuff. We've gone as far south as Myrtle Beach.When we talk about reciprocity, we just want to have the ability to go if we can. Right now we don't. Our market's being taken away from us in Canada by predatory pricing because it's open. I'm a strong believer in free trade. I've worked in 50 different countries in the world in my career, and I'm a strong, strong believer in it, but if you want to put some caveats on what you're considering as free trade, as the U.S. often does, then we should reciprocate and say that as soon as they drop theirs, ours are dropped. To me, it's a simple and effective way of ensuring that free trade is free trade. I sat in front of Peel Regional Council back a number of years ago, and Hazel McCallion got up and she said, you know, there is no such thing as free trade and there never has been. That happens a lot of times because of these little side agreements that pop up, and they affect different businesses in Canada.If there's any way within the new Canada-U.S.-Mexico agreement that some kind of understanding could be put in that, if you start putting these side agreements in, then we're going to reciprocate....C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsProtectionismTrade agreements60883886088389608839060883916088392MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1620)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Just quickly, and with the greatest respect I have for the witnesses who have come before the committee this afternoon, I would like to make sure that the record is clear on the point that an overwhelming majority of Democrats in the United States—193 Democrats—voted in favour of this deal, and only 38 did not. My question is for Mr. Jacobi of CanadaBW Logistics. Thank you very much for joining us today. If I understand correctly the nature of your business, you help local Canadian businesses expand their export operations. Is that right?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements608839660883976088398Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevin-JacobiInterventionMr. Kevin Jacobi: (1625)[English] One of the challenges we have, being a border community, is that we rely heavily on interaction between Canada and the U.S. That has been our ideal place to export, because it's fast and it's easy. We can literally see the other country across the river in the Niagara region.In these past few years, there's been a lot of uncertainty for us being able to ship goods or get contracts in the U.S. Through the Canadian consulates around the world, we've been helped to find other opportunities in other countries to export our products—those longer supply chains. We've relied too heavily on a specific path. We have to start building these other chains so that if something goes wrong, we still have other opportunities. It's the diversification that is necessary.Furthermore, if this is ratified, the resulting diversification will allows us to develop partnerships and build bridges between the other trade agreements for us to have better access into the U.S. market with trade partnerships from our other pacts, such as CETA and the like.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements608839960884006088401RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1625)[English]Approximately how many of your clients—Canadian businesses that you help export—are exporting to the United States and/or Mexico?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements6088402KevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevin-JacobiInterventionMr. Kevin Jacobi: (1625)[English]Our client base is a little over 70 clients whom we work directly with here, who actually touch ground in Niagara itself. I would say roughly about 60% of those would go into the U.S.Into Mexico.... We don't have very many who go that far down the pathway, but we do have clients developing their pathways into Brazil and into Britain. Through the free trade agreement with Ukraine, we have that pathway developed, as well as China and other Asian countries that we're working with.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements60884036088404RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1625)[English]You mentioned that you're located in the Niagara region. I saw that your location is about one hour away from three different border crossings with the United States. Was that location strategically chosen to be close to our largest trading partner?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements6088405KevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevin-JacobiInterventionMr. Kevin Jacobi: (1625)[English]It was, very much so. I was born and raised in Niagara, so I'm very lucky to have that option here. Within a ten-hour drive—basically a truck's drive away from Niagara—we have over 140 million people from the North American consumer market available to us. That's a significant portion. Not only does it help our local businesses develop those trade routes into the U.S., which we've relied on, it also allows us to build those partnerships and manufacturing opportunities with international companies to grow our community here as well.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements6088406RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1625)[English]You touched on an earlier question on the need for stability and certainty. Does the existence of a certain agreement, like the one negotiated now—the CUSMA agreement—help businesses such as yours? Would you say that there was concern or anxiety around the situation in which we found ourselves when the United States indicated it did not want to continue with NAFTA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements6088407KevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevin-JacobiInterventionMr. Kevin Jacobi: (1625)[English]Very much so. Basically, business went into a holding pattern. We weren't sure what the climate was or how things were going to be moving forward. Is it going to be ripped up and not ratified? Are we going back to basically the default of the World Trade Organization, which has lost a lot of its teeth in its ability to actually enforce any of its rules and regulations?We had a lot of people sitting on their projects and sitting on their money. International investment was reduced because international companies never saw the advantage of investing in infrastructure or manufacturing in our region, because they never knew if they would have access to the market they were attracted to.This uncertainty just puts us in that pattern. We need to know. We understand it's not going to be perfect for every sector. It's going to be a living document that's will need to be ratified, developed and evolved, but at least it gives us a pathway and a firm base to help build those conversations.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements608840860884096088410RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC): (1625)[English] Madam Chair, I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Lewis.I want to put something on the record as well. The parliamentary secretary continues to put on the record that the Democrats and the Republicans voted for this deal in the United States and, of course, they would. When the United States did their economic impact study, CUSMA was a net positive for the United States, a $68 billion net improvement. The last time I checked, we're Canadian MPs whose job it is to analyze this agreement for Canada, and I don't know if the witnesses watched earlier, but we just got the economic impact study today from the government The C.D. Howe organization last week was quite clear that this deal, compared to the deal we already have, is a net negative of $10 billion U.S., which is $14 billion Canadian. What we're trying to do on this side.... Mr. Jacobi, I want you to know that the deal will pass. It's going to pass this week and move into the Senate, so we are going to be moving this along, but unfortunately we have to... Well, I'm not saying “unfortunately”, but fortunately we are going to do our due diligence and make sure that for the families and businesses negatively affected by the deal, at least we'll hold the government's feet to the fire in making sure that programs and supports are there for them.As far as Mr. Tully is concerned, you are right. Ten years ago Mr. Harper did negotiate an exemption for Canadian companies from buy American, and there was an opportunity in this agreement to do the same and, unfortunately, because of the weak leadership of our Prime Minister, he didn't do that. I want to make that clear because I hear over and over that the Democrats and the Republicans supported this and that's why we should do. No. We're Canadian MPs. We're here to do the job for Canadians, to make sure Canadians' interests are looked after in this agreement.Mr. Lewis.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088414608841560884166088417608841860884196088420Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis (Essex, CPC): (1630)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to my colleague, Mr. Carrie. I echo his words. Mr. Perez, again, this morning we finally did get an economic analysis study from the government. The interesting thing was that they did not compare it to anything. They didn't compare it to NAFTA or to the low, or how.... They didn't compare it to anything.It might seem a bit odd, but specifically with regard climate change, the way it's written in CUSMA, we don't know if it's going to meet the targets or what it's going to do, because it wasn't compared to anything. What would you like to see it compared to? Would you like to see it compared to NAFTA? Do you have thoughts on that front?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60884216088422608842360884246088425ColinCarrieOshawaEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1630)[English]There's no climate reference in the current text, so at this moment we can't have any kind of analysis on how this trade deal impacts climate and Canada's objectives related to the Paris Agreement, for example, or other multilateral environmental agreements that are not mentioned in the revised text. We can compare it to many things, not necessarily in relation to NAFTA, but for the past two years, the Liberal government and Mr. Trudeau have been travelling around the world to sign new trade deals that are called progressive by including some kinds of provisions, for example, on the environment, labour rights, gender, indigenous rights and so on. If you do that kind of comparison between how Canada signs these trade deals, there is a great discrepancy between what Canada negotiates with the United States and what it does with Mercosur and what it does with the EU, particularly when it comes to the investor-state dispute settlement mechanism.So at this moment, I think Climate Action Network is asking for a domestic clause so that Canada will have an assessment on how CUSMA either helps renewable energy companies invest in the U.S., or, if there are goods that come from the U.S. to Canada or from Mexico to Canada, that help Canada reduce greenhouse gas emissions. When you start doing that kind of analysis, you already get information that frankly hasn't been there in the past.And the other element that I would bring to the table is that within the Paris Agreement, Canada has developed a nationally determined contribution, which is the pan-Canadian framework on climate change and the way Canada brings this pan-Canadian framework into force, compared with how other countries implement their climate targets. So there are many opportunities for Canada to explore and compare how the trade deals it signs with the EU, Mercosur and the U.S. are impacting Canada's objective when it comes to climate change.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60884266088427608842860884296088430ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1635)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.My question goes to Executive Vice-president Tully.It's my understanding that you provide engineering services as well. Do you?Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608843560884366088437Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1635)[English]That's correct.Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088438SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1635)[English]When we have had previous agreements, anyone we heard from, such as the architects who came here as witnesses here, said that agreements like this will help engineering companies to do better. Would you agree with that?Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088439JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1635)[English]I probably would agree with that, but unfortunately the engineering that we provide we restrict to our own products, so we're not exporting engineering services. Our services are internal. We are a registered consulting engineering firm, but we limit it to our own products. Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088440SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1635)[English]That is good to hear. Mr. Carrie was saying that we should be helping companies like yours. Our government put $125 billion in funding into infrastructure. How does that help companies like yours?Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements60884416088442JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1635)[English]Well, the funding is fantastic. I'm going to make a protectionist kind of statement now. It's Canadian tax dollars that are paying for Canadian infrastructure. It would be nice to see Canadian companies have a fair shake at obtaining that work. When Canadian companies are kind of handcuffed to go to other countries, and those countries are allowed to come in and take those infrastructure dollars, which I am happy to say that I participate in supplying through the taxes that I pay, I get a little upset. I'm very happy that the government puts all that money into infrastructure funding. I'd like them to protect the Canadian businesses to ensure that they get their fair shake at that.Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements608844360884446088445SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1635)[English]You said that you employ 500 people directly and 300 indirectly.Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088446JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1635)[English]It's 3,000 indirectly.Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088447SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1635)[English]For those 500, once CUSMA is ratified, do you think your company will face layoffs, or do you think you will be able to survive?Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesTrade agreements6088448JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1635)[English]My issues with the free trade agreement are really with the side things that happen. If it were purely free trade, we would probably benefit. We would benefit if you could say that our doors are open to the U.S. participation and the U.S. is wide open to Canadian participation. If that were truly the case, then we would probably benefit because we have a state-of-the-art facility and we consider ourselves one of the best producers in the world and we think we can be cost-competitive and certainly competitive in our marketplaces. However, as I said, we don't have that even playing field right now, and if there is any way the federal government can ensure that we have that even playing ground, then that's going to be a benefit to all Canadian companies. Free trade, if it's truly free trade, is fantastic. If there are allowances within an agreement to have these subagreements, as we've seen happen in the past, then that's not really free trade, and we get handcuffed by that.Building and construction industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesTrade agreements608844960884506088451SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1635)[English]Okay.My question is for CanadaBW Logistics.Mr. Jacobi, you were talking but your time was up when they asked you the question about companies that can take advantage. Is there anything you think you would have said that you couldn't say?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements608845260884536088454JimTullyKevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevin-JacobiInterventionMr. Kevin Jacobi: (1640)[English]Certainly.I think the main thing is to look outside. We have great opportunities through our consulates around the world to make connections with entrepreneurs and people who see Canada as a positive place to land. That's not just to land their goods in to sell in the market but actually to make this a second home or to set up a factory.My company has been growing the ability to show these companies that Niagara is a very positive place to do business, to raise a family and to have a successful manufacturing centre for them to access a very large consumer market. We're very lucky in Niagara that we have a trade surplus. We export more than we import into our region. We're a pathway for many of those spaces. There is value to that, and I would say there is value to many of our core communities in looking at these other countries and developing those relationships to build their community and bring in new resources and new pathways to help further the other companies around them. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFreight transportationGovernment billsTrade agreements6088455608845660884576088458SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1640)[Translation]I'd like to continue my conversation with Mr. Peréz about the environmental aspect.As everyone knows, and as someone pointed out earlier, the United States did not sign the Paris agreement. You said that the environmental agreements mentioned in the chapter on the environment date back to NAFTA.As the standing committee that will be studying future agreements, we need to think about that. When we sign an agreement with a country that is a signatory to the Paris agreement, must the new agreement explicitly state that all of the provisions have to comply with the Paris agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements608846160884626088463Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1640)[Translation]Yes, that's exactly right.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6088464Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1640)[Translation]As I said in my opening remarks, we need to think carefully, just as we do when we sign free trade agreements. A free trade agreement can be suspended if parties don't abide by the provisions.This aspect needs to be added when we're talking about how states that sign free trade agreements respect their environmental and climate-related commitments in the Paris agreement. I would say yes to your first point, but I would take it further and look at how suspension can be used to strengthen these measures.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60884686088469Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1640)[Translation]Let me make sure I understand. You're saying that, if a trade situation fails to comply with environmental standards, free trade in that sector would be suspended?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6088470EddyPerézEddyPerézEddyPerézEddy-PerézInterventionMr. Eddy Peréz: (1640)[Translation]The EU is a perfect example. A significant number of EU countries have proposed that a free trade agreement with a third party be suspended. A state can suspend the entire agreement, not just the environmental chapter, when the other party fails to uphold its obligations under the nationally determined contributions in the Paris agreement.Those discussions are already under way. I think suspension would be a last resort, but many other measures ranging from the option you proposed to suspension can be taken to ensure that both parties commit to honouring their commitments and to making their targets under the agreement much more ambitious.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements60884716088472Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1645)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Tully, I want to engage you a little bit more on the subject of reciprocity. I think that's maybe a more comfortable notion for New Democrats. In a lot of cases, we have tended to be critical of free trade.I don't think your story is unique. We have heard from cattle producers, for instance, under CETA, who thought they were going to have unfettered market access. Indeed, dairy farmers were asked to make sacrifices in order to open that market access. Now we find out there are objections to some of the sanitizing practices here in North America, so they don't actually get that market access to Europe.Do you think it's fair to say that governments of different stripes have been overly enthusiastic about the idea of free trade and have let that sometimes blind them to the realities of what our trading partners are doing?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088475608847660884776088478Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1645)[English]From my perspective, from what's happened in the past, free trade agreements struck between different countries have always left openings, and those openings are taken advantage of time and time again to—as in the case of the dairy farmers—hit different sectors with some little clause that makes it difficult for them to truly have free trade.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088479DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1645)[English] Maybe I'm wrong about this, but Canada seems unique in offering pretty much unfettered market access under the auspices of a trade agreement, and in not really responding when trading partners don't provide that same access. Domestically, we're told as a political argument that “Oh well, these sacrifices are justified because we're getting equal market access”, and then in fact we hear....Are there a lot of people in the United States saying that they can't get access to the Canadian market, that those tricky Canadians are blocking them, and likewise with Europe? I'm interested to know who your counterparts are across international borders who would be feeling the same way about Canada that Canadian businesses are feeling about some of our trading partners.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60884806088481JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1645)[English]I agree with your first statement when you say that we Canadians tend to be too nice and we open our doors so that everything can come in. I sit as the chairman of the American Concrete Pressure Pipe Association, and I'm also the chairman of the Canadian Concrete Pipe & Precast Association. From the American Concrete Pressure Pipe Association, I'll give you a bit of the feedback I get from my counterparts who are the presidents or senior vice-presidents of our competitors from the U.S. They laugh at us. They know that they can come here openly, and they know that we don't have a hope in hell of going down there. That's my struggle.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60884826088483DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1645)[English]Canada needs to get a bit more hard-nosed.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088484JimTullyJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1645)[English]You can hear my frustration a bit because of that.Mr. Daniel Blaikie: Yes.Mr. Jim Tully: I've talked myself hoarse at the municipal level. I've gone in front of numerous councils and said, “Just give us fairness.” That's all we're asking for. We're not asking to be protectionist. We're asking them to react and to react quickly when things are put in place that restrict our trade.Just be equal—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088485608848660884876088488DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): (1645)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the opportunity to ask a few questions.First of all, I have a clarification for the record. Mr. Dhaliwal suggested that about $125-billion worth of infrastructure investment has gone into our economy. In fact, the most recent report from the PBO, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, says it's less than $14-billion worth. This is a 2018 report, and only $14 billion worth of infrastructure investment had actually gone into our economy. Quite frankly, I don't think the figure is that much higher since then; we would have seen a much more significant economic boost.I have a question for you, Mr. Tully. Thank you for appearing. The North American Free Trade Agreement could have addressed buy America provisions. This has been an ongoing problem and friction between our two countries, with the United States imposing restrictions on the opportunity for Canadian companies to participate in large infrastructure projects, while we as Canadians don't reciprocate with those kinds of restrictions on American companies doing business up here. The North American Free Trade Agreement was the perfect opportunity to fix this problem.Are you disappointed that the agreement didn't address this issue?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsProtectionismTrade agreements608849560884966088497608849860884996088500Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1650)[English]Absolutely, and like I said, there are these windows of opportunity to come in and make some little side agreements or agreements that affect it. Buy America goes back decades, but to not address that and to say that Mexico and Canada are exempt from any of these clauses, that to me seems.... Maybe I'm naive, but when I originally got into this business and got involved with that, I thought, “Oh, free trade, everything is open.” Then you start seeing these little side agreements that are out there and you go, “Well, maybe it's not quite so free.” That's a huge struggle. If it could have been agreed, or if were simple to do that, it would be fantastic.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsProtectionismTrade agreements60885016088502EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1650)[English] When the Prime Minister spread his arms wide open and said, "Donald Trump, I'd be glad to renegotiate NAFTA", I took him at his word when he said he was going to bring back a better deal than we had before. Sadly, the economic impact statement that was just released doesn't compare what Canada will be getting under the new agreement with what we had under the current NAFTA. It says it's the difference between what Canada would get under the new agreement and what we would have if there were no NAFTA at all, which is not the standard that was set when the TPP was negotiated. It's not the standard set for economic impact assessments when the CPTPP was negotiated. In fact, in my time as trade minister, I don't believe we ever used that as the benchmark. We always compared the new agreement to what it was like before that agreement was signed. It's very disappointing to me that in this agreement that was supposed to be a win-win-win—those are the Prime Minister's words—we have an agreement that by any measure is actually less favourable to Canada. When the American officials talk about it, they say they finally got a much better deal out of this, implying that Canada is the loser. We lost an opportunity to address buy American provisions that continue to plague our bilateral relationship. I have a question for Mr. Jacobi. Thank you for being so patient in waiting for this. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608850360885046088505JimTullyJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1650)[English]You had talked about the value of NAFTA as being a global platform for Canada to access global markets, especially in light of CETA, especially in light of the CPTPP. Could you expand on that a little bit more?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088507Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKevinJacobiKevinJacobiKevin-JacobiInterventionMr. Kevin Jacobi: (1650)[English]Sure. Maybe I'll start with an example. We have an American company that moved up here in the beginning of 2019. They made a proprietary fabric that was antimicrobial, anti-inflammable, so it doesn't burn very easily. They had developed these threads and they were doing it in the U.S. They were a U.S. company, but most of it was going to Europe. Because of some of the challenges with trade between the U.S. and Europe, they found that a lot of their contracts were being stalled or stopped. They found out that they could produce in Montreal and move up to Canada and, through CETA, have better access to that market again. This is what we're seeing. It's a challenge. I wish we had more in NAFTA. I do agree with that. I am proud of what past governments have done. I'm also proud of what they tried to do with this here as well, because I think we're in an undocumented time with regard to how the U.S. negotiates based on their president. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608850860885096088510EdFastHon.AbbotsfordJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): (1650)[English] Thank you very much.It's a great discussion. We've been talking about American politics, Canadian politics and other comparisons. I've been 23 years in politics, with a majority of that time spent at the municipal level, so I understand when Mr. Tully or my friend from Niagara is talking about bidding on contracts and municipal processes and whatnot. One thing that's important to clarify is that a lot of the difference between the American and Canadian systems is when you talk about a buy local program—let's call it a buy local program, namely, buy America versus buy Canada—the vast majority of infrastructure programs are actually under the purview of the provincial and territorial governments where they exist.In our federated system—I also studied political science at university in Michigan—it's quite different. Our federal government, through our historic infrastructure funding programs, transfers said dollars to the provinces and territories. The provinces then reach agreements with municipalities, etc., and it is implemented locally. The reason I know this, too, is that I come from Sault Ste. Marie, where we make a whole bunch of steel. I'm always very interested to see the maximum amount of steel in the infrastructure program. In fact, I had a private member's motion I put forward on the floor to do this, and in doing so, I learned a whole bunch more. In fact, a vast majority of infrastructure programs are under provincial or territorial jurisdiction, so we need to work closely with our Ontario or Alberta or Northwest Territories counterparts to enact those provisions to see those local benefits. You would need to see a buy Ontario campaign for Ontario infrastructure programming. I know the previous Liberal government had put forward such a program, but it was undone by this current Ford government.That is one of the issues at hand here. This is an important discussion to have, but this is a big difference between our governments. Sure, there is still federal programming, including around defence. In fact, Algoma Steel was successful in garnering a federal contract—a buy Canada program, if you will. Around things related to security, certain provisions can be instructed by the minister to said businesses involved in the contract process. They can't influence and say that Algoma Steel or Stelco or this engineering firm gets it, but they can say that special provisions, under national security advice, will be garnered towards a Canadian company.Algoma Steel was...not lucky, but successful. The definition of luck is when planning meets opportunity. I remember hearing that once. They were successful in garnering the royal shipbuilding program for the current program. That's going to mean jobs. That's going to mean a whole bunch of engineers. Canadian engineers in Sault Ste. Marie are hard at work figuring out the—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608851360885146088515608851660885176088518Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1655)[English]Yes, British Columbia could bid on it, too.That's what I think we need to underline and highlight. We don't want to leave this on the table. If we go forward—and I'm going to present the question to Mr. Tully—perhaps we could also put forward a recommendation, through to our analysts and to our clerk, to suggest that this committee recommend that provinces and territories instruct to have a buy Ontario or a buy Alberta program with this historic infrastructure funding that we're announcing. Do you think that would be a worthwhile recommendation, Mr. Tully?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsProtectionismTrade agreements608852060885216088522SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJimTullyJimTullyJim-TullyInterventionMr. Jim Tully: (1655)[English]Absolutely. I'm going to answer two different things. You talked about how a lot of the funding comes out of the provinces and the territories. The buy America ties back to federal funding, whether it flows through a state or through the municipal level. They put in that overriding thing. That would be the buy Canadian option.You're absolutely right that there's also funding that comes out of Ontario or comes at a municipal level on certain projects. That's why we've spent so much time—and I've spend so much time—over the last few years with the FCM and at the municipal level, canvassing them to do that.To Daniel's point earlier, as Canadians, we're too nice. We are. We roll over and we say that we have a free trade agreement and we shouldn't do anything about it. That's why my big push was reciprocity. Don't do it unless they're doing it to you. I agree with that, but do it if they're not.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsProtectionismTrade agreements608852360885246088525TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire (President and Chief Executive Officer, Associated Equipment Distributors): (1705)[English] Good evening, Madam Chair, members of the committee and fellow panellists.I am honoured to bring remarks on behalf of the Associated Equipment Distributors, AED, to the committee this evening.Madam Chair, I also want to publicly recognize your work on construction and infrastructure policy issues over many years and to, of course, thank you for taking the time to address our association's membership during their visit to Ottawa in the last Parliament. Your leadership is very appreciated by our members on both sides of the border.AED is the international trade association representing companies that sell, rent, service and manufacture equipment used in construction, mining, forestry, power generation, agriculture and industrial applications—products essential to building and maintaining critical infrastructure, including roads, bridges, pipes and waterways. Additionally, we provide equipment vital to natural resources and agricultural sectors across Canada.Our member companies operate and have locations in Canada, the United States and Mexico. In Canada, our members have more than 420 locations that employ 27,000 hard-working men and women in rewarding careers. In North America, every year these predominantly small and medium-sized, family-owned businesses generate over $60 billion U.S. in revenue. While based in the United States, AED is truly an international trade association. In fact, in 2021, AED's board chair will be an executive from a Canadian-based company.AED has been a leading advocate for modernizing a trilateral North American trade agreement both in Canada and the United States. As a pro-free trade organization, we made the accord's ratification a top policy priority in Washington. AED worked closely with congressional leaders in a bipartisan manner, and I was honoured to be present last month at the White House when the President signed the agreement into law. I'd like to congratulate all parties for their efforts to deliver a trilateral trade agreement that will continue to align Canadian, American and Mexican interests. However, it's now time for Canada to join its partners in the United States and Mexico to complete ratification of the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement by swiftly approving the enabling legislation in the House of Commons, and ultimately the Senate of Canada, to provide much-needed trade certainty for the Canadian equipment sector.The Canadian equipment sector, which relies on cross-border trade between the United States and Mexico, is particularly susceptible to economic uncertainty because essential goods and commerce flow across the southern Canadian border every day. This makes quick approval vital to our industry's prosperity. Efficient delivery of heavy equipment, machinery parts and services helps keep costs low for our customers—the farmers, the road builders, the contractors—and provincial and local governments across the country. Rising costs result in less capital to invest in businesses, employees and job creation. Delays in product delivery create inefficiencies and postpone major infrastructure projects that benefit Canadian citizens and commerce.Ratification of CUSMA would be a win for all Canadians, and its prompt ratification is essential to the prosperity of the equipment sector. AED believes that CUSMA strikes the right balance between protecting Canada's interests and ensuring the free flow of commerce and goods in North America. We have advocated for a quick resolution of these negotiations both in Ottawa and in Washington, D.C., and have promoted the benefits of reaching a deal quickly in both countries to deliver business confidence, which is a key driver of new investment in the construction, energy and agricultural sectors. We have made every effort to ensure that both Canada and the U.S. are aware of the difficulties that would come from a bad deal or a long, drawn-out process.I am appearing before you today to appeal to your sense of urgency and to underscore the point that we need a resolution quickly. Mexico and the United States have ratified this agreement and are ready to proceed. AED is calling on parliamentarians to ratify the agreement promptly.If amendments are suggested, the deal will have to be reopened. Businesses operating in natural resources, construction and agricultural sectors will be facing delays.Stakeholders from across industries have been broadly supportive of concessions made in Canada and the U.S. to arrive at this agreement. It is time to move forward.(1710)In closing, I wish to commend the efforts of Canada's negotiating team for its approach to working with its counterparts in the United States and Mexico. I also wish to express thanks to the members of this committee from all parties who are working to ensure that the agreement receives a comprehensive hearing while also taking measures to ensure that it can come into force quickly. By modernizing and strengthening the trade ties among the three countries, CUSMA will help restore predictability and trade certainty to North American equipment markets, creating an environment for greater investment, well-paying jobs and sustained growth.I thank the committee for its time.Associated Equipment DistributorsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEquipment dealersGovernment billsTrade agreements608853860885396088540608854160885426088543608854460885456088546608854760885486088549608855060885516088552Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGregJohnstonGreg-JohnstonInterventionMr. Greg Johnston (President, Songwriters Association of Canada): (1710)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable members. Apologies for not appearing in person today, but Mother Nature obviously had different plans for us. It is a privilege to speak with you this afternoon, and, as always, I congratulate the committee for allowing and welcoming input from creators directly.I would like to focus my remarks today specifically on copyright term extension and the benefits that immediate and unencumbered ratification would have for the creative community.It is important to note that term extension is widely supported by the creative community in both French and English Canada, in North America through Music Creators North America, and globally by CIAM—the International Council of Music Creators based in Paris, France, which represents some 500,000 professional music creators globally. Beyond the creator community, ratification is supported by the Canadian collectives SOCAN and CMRRA, and also by our publishing partners Music Publishers Canada in English Canada and APEM in Quebec. This is significant in and of itself, and I urge the committee to recognize this unanimity throughout the remainder of its deliberations.The importance of copyright: Copyright is not an abstraction for us. It is not merely the work product of policy experts or the musings of law professors. It is also not a mechanism to punish consumers. Copyright is quite simply our currency, our lifeblood, our ability to feed our families and to pay our taxes. It is our survival.The reality: If I may be direct, Canadian creators are under threat. Digital disruption, safe harbours, and overreaching exemptions have all contributed to an environment that can be described only as precarious. In an increasingly global marketplace, the dominance of American-owned streaming companies further exacerbates the problem due to lack of Canadian discoverability and the absence of investment towards the creation of domestic content. The government's recent Yale report, in addition to the EU copyright directive, provides solutions critical to creator sustainability and a much needed return to a more balanced digital marketplace, one that is sustainable for creators in Canada and globally.Why term extension? Term extension is only one of many problems creators face, but it is one of vital importance. Over 60 nations, including France and the EU, the U.S., Australia and the U.K., have adopted the “life plus seventy” model. Harmonization with our trading partners eliminates market confusion, promotes international investment, and provides critical leadership on the importance of IP protection. Many creators struggle to achieve long-term financial stability. RRSPs and many other financial mechanisms are simply not possible for some members of our community. Term extension increases the worth of our copyrights, as their valuation is often calculated on the amount of time a catalogue may be monetized into the future, therefore increasing our ability to leave meaningful financial legacies to our heirs. One can simply look to the tragic and premature death of Stan Rogers, who left behind a widow in her twenties and a small child, to grasp the very human and moral implications term extension can have for our music community.Our publishing partners: For many Canadian creators, music publishers provide important partnerships and sources of career investment. Term extension increases the window of monetization for publishers. This long-term financial predictability for our partners will provide critical support to invest in the careers of creators. This committee has heard arguments that term extension is of benefit to only publishers. This is a serious distortion. It is critical to remember that every dollar a publisher makes is directly tied to a creator's work. We are also beneficiaries. In most cases we music creators receive from 50% to 75% of the revenue generated from the uses of our works. Independent self-published Canadian music creators will often receive 100% of revenues. To omit the creator's involvement from the equation dehumanizes the process, excludes us from the discussion, and minimizes our already undervalued involvement in the value chain.(1715) I'll turn to the burdens of registration. Through our collection societies, our works are already registered accurately and robustly. To add another level of bureaucracy is not only inefficient and wasteful but also onerous and prohibitive to our heirs and publishing partners. Extra layers of registration can only lead to confusion, redundancy and potential abuse.In conclusion, progressive IP protection is a cornerstone to innovation and creativity. Healthy and fair copyright law promotes stable, sustainable and democratic ecosystems for creators. Currently, Canadian creators are better treated in many other territories than here in our own. Countries that have adopted the life plus 70 standard enable dynamic, cultural communities that benefit consumers and creators alike—without the dire and hyperbolic negative consequences some would mistakenly predict. I urge this committee to recognize the economic, cultural and moral benefits that unencumbered ratification would bring to our community and to the countless many who enjoy and are inspired by our works.I'd like to thank you, Madam Chair, and the honourable members again for the opportunity to speak directly to creator concerns. I'd be happy to answer any questions.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsSongwriters Association of CanadaTrade agreements60885566088557608855860885596088560608856160885626088563608856460885656088566Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen (Senior Economist, National Services, Canadian Union of Public Employees): (1720)[English] Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me here to speak on behalf of the Canadian Union of Public Employees, or CUPE. CUPE is the largest union in Canada. We represent over 700,000 workers across the country in about 2,000 different local unions working in diverse sectors for both public and private sector employers.CUPE welcomes the improvements to the updated NAFTA, but we believe that some flaws remain, ones that create barriers, for example, to effective climate action and for protection of public services. Furthermore, one that we don't think there's enough information about is the language on regulatory co-operation. In our view, the agreement falls short of a progressive deal. Instead, it could be better thought of as moderate improvements to an outdated and ineffective model of trade and investment treaties. We do applaud the changes to the intellectual property chapter that House Democrats in the United States were able to negotiate in December. That will avoid projected cost increases to medicines. Under the initial text, we would have been required to extend data protection periods on biologic medicines from the current eight years to 10 years. Those longer data periods extend the time it takes for cheaper generic versions of biologics to be available. That will be helpful when we introduce a universal national pharmacare program, making it more affordable to do that. The IP chapter also allows for domestic regulation of evergreening now, which was a practice where drug companies made small and medically inconsequential changes to medicines to obtain a new patent. The previous version had not allowed regulations to prevent that, but now we will be able to regulate against that practice, which inflates drug prices at no benefit to patients. We're really glad to see those particular changes, as we think that a national pharmacare program is really important.Labour rights have been strengthened through the new rapid-response mechanism between Canada and Mexico. As you know, if a specific workplace is suspected of violating freedom of association or collective bargaining rights, which are constitutional labour rights in Canada, an independent panel of labour experts can investigate. One gap in this mechanism is that it's restricted in terms of what work it covers. The facilities that are covered don't include agriculture, forestry and fisheries, which are where a lot of labour rights violations involving migrant workers would occur. This rapid-response mechanism basically leaves out migrant workers, even though migrant workers rights are in the full chapter on labour rights.We're encouraged that the burden of proof for labour and environmental violations has shifted; all violations are now assumed to impact trade and investment unless proven otherwise. What had been shown in United States history is that in including that little clause, you had to prove it was connected to trade violations. That made it virtually impossible to ever meet that burden of proof. Removing that gives the potential for the labour chapter to be enforceable. We'll have to see how that plays out, but it's definitely encouraging. It's a significant improvement over the original NAFTA labour side deal. It includes clear language that commits each country to implement policies that protect workers against wage and employment discrimination on the basis of sex, including with regard to pregnancy, sexual harassment, sexual orientation, gender identity and caregiving responsibilities, which is really important. This mainstreams a gender lens into the labour chapter.We're encouraged that the environmental chapter now recognizes the obligations that nations may have from some international environment treaties. We think that what often tends to happen is that we sign these international treaties, but we can't be held to them; they're not as binding as a trade treaty and so a trade treaty always trumps the environmental treaty. If we can include references in our trade treaties to the importance of these environmental treaties or labour treaties that we've signed onto, that would help balance the playing field. It's problematic that the Paris climate agreement is not one of the recognized treaties. That means that NAFTA continues to ignore the threat of climate change and limits government responses to deal with the crisis.We know that Canada has to act quickly to respond to the climate crisis and that transitioning the economy in a fair and rapid manner will require expanded public services, increased public ownership and revitalized not-for-profit sectors. There would also be benefits to a much stronger role in government regulating the economy and providing direction through green industrial strategies, for example, as Ontario tried to do but was not able to because of trade deal restrictions in procurement.(1725) We definitely think that, for a new generation of trade to transition quickly, we need to look at how trade agreements are putting barriers in place.The regulatory co-operation chapter locks in Canada's current approach to regulating. It gives multinational industrial interests several entry points into Canada's regulatory system. One of the key issues is the focus on regulating based on scientific evidence. This sounds like it's good but limits your ability to use the precautionary principle, which is what Europe uses in order to regulate health and safety. If you can imagine, make a case for why something could possibly cause harm if you can't regulate it until you've let it out into the marketplace and it has actually caused harm. We think that's problematic.We think that, overall, our approach toward trade and investment should be to view it as means to enhance our financial and social well-being, not as an end in its own right. We think that proposals for a progressive trade agenda, as we're going forward, should be judged against principles such as human rights—including social, cultural and environmental human rights—and that people's rights and their environmental rights should have primacy over corporate and investor rights. There need to be legally binding obligations on transnational corporations. These treaties should not just be about the rights of transnational corporations; they should also enforce their responsibilities.Democratic governments need to maintain their policy space to pursue and prioritize acting in the public interest. We're often told that we're able to, but again and again we come up against governments that say they cannot do something because they've signed a trade deal and are restricted. When that is the case, there's a conflict there. A climate friendly approach should be adopted whenever we're pursuing trade and investment. That's absolutely unquestionable from this point forward.We're also disappointed that there will not be a full and transparent public process of consultations prior to the federal government's ratifying the deal. We recommend that, in the future, the committee's deliberations should be informed by an independent analysis of the deal's impact on our economy. The analysis should look at the critiques of the current CGE model for economic assessment, and it should look at, as was pointed out in the previous section of the panel, what you are comparing it to. Are you comparing it to no NAFTA or to what we had before?Thank you very much.Burden of proofC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Union of Public EmployeesDecision-making processEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsIntellectual propertyLabour lawPharmaceuticalsPrecautionary principlePublic consultationTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions608856960885706088571608857260885736088574608857560885766088577608857860885796088580608858160885826088583Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil (Cultural Policy Consultant, Neil Craig Associates): (1725)[English] Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you, honourable members of the committee.This is at least the fourth time I've had the pleasure of appearing before this committee, following appearances in April 1999, December 2002 and May 2018. I think I appeared a couple of other times earlier in the 1990s, but I can't find a record. Each time I've been here to talk about the cultural exemption, l'exception culturelle, to discuss why it is essential to preserve Canada's sovereignty to implement the public policies we need to support Canadian artists; film, television and record producers; publishers of books and magazines; musicians; actors; visual artists; and others who are so vital to nation building.I want to note that each political party that's with us today has played an important role in ensuring that our cultural policies are more or less exempt from the provisions of our international trade obligations. The original exemption in the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement was negotiated by Brian Mulroney's Conservative government. I served on the arts and culture SAGIT when John Crosbie was trade minister and the FTA became NAFTA.Successive Liberal governments have continued the exemption and supported Canada's lead role in negotiating the 2005 UNESCO Convention on the Protection and Promotion of the Diversity of Cultural Expressions.Quebec played a critical role in negotiating the UNESCO convention, and the Bloc Québécois has been an outspoken advocate of l'exception culturelle. The NDP has been a strong supporter of Canadian arts and culture, and the cultural exemption. I also want to note that in the room today is the Honourable Ed Fast. When he was trade minister, the Canada-Korea Free Trade Agreement was negotiated, and it includes the a cultural exemption. I want to leave the committee with three key messages today. One, the committee should endorse the earliest possible ratification of CUSMA. CUSMA's cultural exemption is far stronger than the original NAFTA and, given the weakness of the cultural provisions in the CPTPP, it's critical for Canada to have an exemption in its most contemporary trade agreement.Two, please understand the limitations of CUSMA's cultural exemption. It's not perfect. It has an antiquated and problematic definition. It comes with obligations to change policies, and it has other limitations.Three, this committee needs to address the link between CUSMA and other trade agreements, particularly as we continue to deal with our powerful southern neighbour on cultural matters.Why is it important to ratify CUSMA? While it surprises many people, the reality is there is no cultural exemption in the original NAFTA. Instead, it incorporates the cultural provisions of the Canada-U.S. FTA by reference. Since CUSFTA was a bottom-up agreement, its scope was narrow. NAFTA is a top-down agreement, meaning it covers every economic sector, including those that develop in the future.Arguably, the cultural exemption, then, related only to the limited number of economic sectors in CUSFTA, putting at risk more contemporary policies related, for example, to online, on-demand services like Netflix. This significant problem is solved in CUSMA, and I congratulate Steve Verheul and his team for understanding this, because the cultural exemption is direct and comprehensive. Measures adopted or maintained by Canada with respect to a cultural industry are exempt. This includes the chapter on digital trade.While it's important to ratify CUSMA, please do so fully understanding the limitations of its cultural exemption. In all of our important trade agreements concluded since 1987, we've done the same thing. In theory we have a cultural exemption. In practice we trade away some cultural policies and limit our capacity to implement new ones. This is the case with CUSMA.The definition of “cultural industries” is unchanged from the original NAFTA. This is a 1987 definition that does not cover visual arts, performing arts and crafts. Most of you around the table are too young to even know what the antiquated term “machine readable form” is, but you'll find it in the definition. Such a definition is unlikely to sustain policies and programs Canadians will need for a medium future artists will use to create their works.(1730) The notwithstanding clause is continued. This is a clause authorizing retaliation of equivalent commercial effect against any measure supporting the cultural industries that Canada should implement in future. There's a new dispute settlement provision. While it's good that Canada could now challenge a retaliatory measure, the powers of the arbitrator include determining if Canada's measure properly falls under the cultural exemption in the first place. There is incredibly convoluted and obtuse language in article 32.6.3 that would seem to permit the U.S. to retaliate against Canadian cultural industry firms in a greater amount than the standard of equivalent commercial effect. CUSMA contains a number of specific broadcasting policy changes. These include a requirement to overturn the CRTC's Super Bowl simultaneous substitution decision. I'd love it if somebody asked me about that, because I could tell you the secret story of the simsub ruling. This is a good thing, by the way. It includes expansion of the rights of U.S. border stations under our retransmission rules, and it guarantees U.S. home shopping services will be carried by Canadian cable, satellite and Internet protocol television distributers. CUSMA also requires Canada to make changes to the Copyright Act, as you've already heard. Some of these are very positive, as my colleague Greg Johnston has pointed out about the increase in the term of copyright protection, but some of them are a little bit more problematic. For example, while the changes respecting technological protection measures and rights management information are minor, the detailed rules concerning civil and criminal remedies for tampering with digital locks and watermarks are likely to put pressure on Canada's system to implement stronger penalties.The agreement also allows us to maintain our notice and notice system of liability when an Internet service provider is advised of a copyright infringement, but it establishes the U.S. notice and takedown system as the standard. This too will limit Canada's ability to evolve its own laws.Finally—and I'd urge my colleague Greg to take a look at this one—there is a new provision in the agreement that requires national treatment, a national treatment obligation for all copyright measures. This will overturn our existing ability to distribute royalties only to Canadians unless there is a reciprocal right in the partner country, and this will erode payments to Canadian artists. Although it's not a huge amount of money, it will erode some payments.Given all of these issues and challenges with CUSMA, why am I still recommending urgent ratification? The answer, quite simply, is CPTPP. Put bluntly, that agreement is by far the worst trade deal for culture that Canada has ever negotiated. CPTPP, of course, started life as the trans-Pacific partnership and most TPP terms are included in CPTPP by reference. TPP's treatment of culture is atrocious. There is no cultural exemption, and the preamble provision recognizing the importance of cultural diversity is simply factually incorrect when it says “that trade and investment can expand opportunities to enrich cultural identity and diversity at home and abroad”. I tell you that, left unregulated, trade and cross-border investment bring cultural homogenization and not cultural diversity.Canada tried weakly to protect cultural policy-making space by taking a reservation against commitments in a number of TPP chapters, but it's critical to understand that a reservation is not an exemption. It's one-way. It's not mutual, and in international trade law it's subject to the principles of standstill and rollback. If you change a policy reserved in an agreement, you cannot make it stronger, only weaker, and it is assumed by all parties that the reservation will eventually be eliminated. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawCopyright infringementCultural industryGovernment billsNeil Craig AssociatesRoyaltiesTrade agreements6088586608858760885886088589608859060885916088592608859360885946088595608859660885976088598608859960886006088601608860260886036088604608860560886066088607Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil: (1735)[English]Okay.The reason I'm raising CPTPP as an important issue here is that it's related to CUSMA. We all know it's inevitable that the United States will seek to rejoin CPTPP, and there is another principle in international trade law that Canada must enforce against what will be tremendous pressure from our allies. It says that the latest agreement reached by two parties on any particular topic prevails when there are contradictory rules, because that is their most contemporary understanding of the relevant issues. With respect to Canadian cultural issues—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsNeil Craig AssociatesTrade agreements608860960886106088611Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil: (1735)[English]With respect to Canadian culture, that would be the CPTPP, if we fail to ratify CUSMA. If we move expeditiously to ratify CUSMA, the far stronger culture provisions of CUSMA would prevail.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsNeil Craig AssociatesTrade agreements60886156088616Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1735)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here. I'd like to start today with Mr. McGuire. First of all, I want to thank you, sir, for all of your work and support in making sure that there is an agreement. We on this committee travelled down to the United States a few times, and it was really nice to see the support in the American business community for making sure that we got a deal done.You made a couple of comments—I want to correct the record a bit—that there may be a delay in passing this. There was a bit of a whisper campaign in Washington that the Conservatives were trying to slow this down. If you're talking to any of your friends down there, just so you know, the Conservatives moved this through the House in six sitting days. That's compared with 16 days for the original implementation legislation, which was our Bill C-100. The Conservatives offered to do a prestudy back in the spring, but the Liberal government declined to do that before the election. We also offered to come back in early in December to deal with it, and the Liberal government declined that offer as well. I just want that to be clear. This will eventually pass, but it's not because of anybody on this side of the table slowing things down.I want your comment on the buy American clause. Our former prime minister, Mr. Harper, was able to get a Canadian exemption from that. My understanding is that with this agreement, Mexico has an exemption and Canada doesn't. What are your thoughts on that and what do your members think, given that many of them who buy your equipment build infrastructure, bid on infrastructure? Do you have comments on this buy American clause? We had an opportunity to negotiate it out—this is supposed to be a free trade agreement—but unfortunately we weren't successful.Buy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements608861960886206088621608862260886236088624Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire: (1740)[English]Thank you for the opportunity to comment.AED has traditionally opposed such provisions, whether they arise as part of proposals in the U.S. Congress or as part of trade deals. Our stance on those types of provisions is that we have not been supportive of them, and we continue that opposition. Most of our equipment is multi-sourced, as you might imagine, so such provisions don't foster good business practices in the equipment sector.Buy American provisionsC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsTrade agreements60886256088626ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1740)[English]It was extremely disappointing to many of our stakeholders. On the panel just before you, we had a gentleman involved in building infrastructure. He was very concerned that because the government was unable to negotiate it out of this agreement, it could be problematic for him. Thank you for your comments on that. It's nice to see there are similar thoughts on both sides of the border. We can maybe do something to move that forward.Mr. Neil, I want to talk to you. First of all, thank you for coming in.We had another witness—I think you know Professor Michael Geist—who is a leading expert in the world. He's done work not only in Canada, but in the United States and the U.K. He mentioned challenges with CUSMA as well. He had a more, let's just say, grave comment. He said that we have this cultural exemption, but the cost is that we open ourselves to retaliatory tariffs. I believe he cited CUSMA article 32.6.4, which I think you mentioned in your opening remarks. There are some wording issues in 32.6.3 as well. There is a big concern that it would limit our policy options as the digital field evolves.I am wondering if you could comment on that. I realize that you want this passed, and I understand the rationale for it. From our standpoint on this side, we are certainly not going to do anything to slow it down, but we want to do our due diligence. In your opinion, sir, is there a fix to this glaring, I would say, failure in this agreement? Opening ourselves up to these retaliatory tariffs or limiting our policy options in the digital field and how it's evolving so quickly are problematic. Do you have a [Technical difficulty--Editor]?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsTrade agreements6088627608862860886296088630608863160886326088633Brian P.McGuireGarryNeilGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil: (1740)[English] Thank you.It's interesting, because I know Michael Geist very well. He and I have been on the opposite side of many issues, but I don't really disagree with him on this one.The question you have to consider is the degree of threat that any retaliation clause represents. NAFTA had a retaliation clause. There was only one case in our history when the U.S. even threatened to retaliate. They didn't retaliate, but the threat was put on the table. That's the only case.Yes, if they are still able to retaliate, I'm worried about that. I think we should all be worried about that. I would have felt far, far better had it been removed from the agreement, but it wasn't. I think on balance, when you have the strength of the cultural exemption versus the theoretical risk of additional retaliation, which we have never experienced in our history, I think it's work pursuing.My greater concern is the limitations we've already agreed to and impose. We're kind of narrowing our cultural policy scope as we go through each of these trade agreements.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsTrade agreements60886346088635608863660886376088638ColinCarrieOshawaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai (Surrey Centre, Lib.): (1740)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank all of you, obviously. You all come from a range of different fields and have analyzed this.My first question is for Ms. MacEwen. I want to say that you're very well-informed on this. On behalf of your membership, you made a very broad analysis in a very concise period of time for us.You've stated that it helps labour rights much more than ever before. I think on biologic drugs it's much better, as you have stated, which will help with future plans for pharmacare. There was some other stuff, I think. I can't quote you on that exactly, but, in terms of pharmacare, it would help, from what you stated.Have you, your union or other unions like yours been consulted in this much detail with other trade agreements or is this a first? Has it been ongoing? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60886426088643608864460886456088646Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1745)[English]Before being the economist at CUPE, I was the economist at the Canadian Labour Congress. I definitely was involved in consultations around previous trade agreements under Stephen Harper's government. Those consultations were very much one-way. It would be a webinar. You would try to ask questions, and they would just ignore your questions.Definitely, during the process for NAFTA, we were able to come to negotiating rounds. We could ask the negotiators questions. The staff took lots of time with us and were willing to meet with us regularly. I just want to say that the labour folks were amazing. They took a lot of time with us and really were great, but so were other people. They were happy to have us challenge their perspective on the trade deal and engage with us in a really productive way, which was valuable. I would definitely hope to see that continue, because there's nothing that mandates it. The political will of the current government allowed it to happen.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60886476088648RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1745)[English]I'm glad to hear that. I'm hopeful that all future governments, whether this government or any other future government, always consider labour as an important and integral factor.Were you able to do, or did you do, an economic analysis for your membership or the Canadian public sector on the ramifications of having a deal, not having a deal, this current deal, etc.? Would you be able to elaborate on that? Would the deal protect the current jobs that are here or perhaps enhance more?Have you done that sort of analysis?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsLabour marketTrade agreements608864960886506088651AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1745)[English]That's one of the problems with the way that we negotiate trade deals, because you don't know what the changes are going to be until it's kind of.... We didn't know the whole deal until December because the United States made changes to it. It's very difficult to do any kind of economic impact assessment until you have the deal finalized, so we haven't had an opportunity to do that. What we have had is some projections around the cost of medicines. We know that this will improve, especially compared to what was in the TPP. That's fantastic. Apparently during the first NAFTA negotiations under Brian Mulroney's government, there was a lot of data that was available to people and shared with the public around modelling and what type of industrial impact that would have. Maybe talk to people who were in government at that time and knew what was very open in terms of the public modelling and allowed that to happen as negotiations were going forward.We didn't have access to that type of data, but we definitely did our best.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsLabour marketTrade agreements6088652608865360886546088655RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1745)[English] Thank you.To Mr. Johnston from the Songwriters Association, I understand that your concern is over copyright—namely, copyright life plus 70 years versus copyright life plus 50 years. If I'm right about what I've been hearing, not just in the cultural world but also in other copyright sectors that have come here, it's more of a fear that if ever we were to change it, the Americans may retaliate. However, am I correct in saying that the U.S. has a copyright of life plus 70 years and that, if we were to match them, it would not be of any detriment or threat to them?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements60886566088657AngellaMacEwenGregJohnstonGregJohnstonGreg-JohnstonInterventionMr. Greg Johnston: (1745)[English]In fact, us ratifying our copyright term extensions to theirs creates investment opportunities for Canadian publishers to administer the rights on American copyrights for the full term allowed, whereas, as it stands now, you could have a work approaching public domain, which would happen sooner in Canada than in the U.S., and that would be a disadvantage for a Canadian publisher. They would not be able to collect and administer the rights for the same amount of time that a publisher in the U.S. would be able to.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements6088658RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1745)[English]This is something that you could probably have ongoing.... I guess it would fall under ISED. I haven't really delved into this for too long, but it would be something that, even post-ratification of CUSMA, we could continue to do. I don't think the copyright provisions per se are negotiated in this. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements6088659GregJohnstonGregJohnstonGregJohnstonGreg-JohnstonInterventionMr. Greg Johnston: (1750)[English]I'm not a policy expert or a lawyer. I'll defer to Mr. Neil's more precise understanding. In general terms, though, we're looking for ratification, and we're looking for an unencumbered ratification. We don't want there to be a re-registration process after the 50 years. We would simply like to harmonize it with the majority of our trading partners. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements6088660RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1750)[Translation]I want to thank all the witnesses for their presentations.I would like to ask Mr. Neil about the cultural exemption. As you said, my party was an outspoken advocate on this front, as was Quebec, because we wanted it recognized by UNESCO and included in the convention.You said CUSMA is a step forward compared to NAFTA because it mentions the cultural exemption, but there are different ways of including exemptions in agreements. In some cases, such as the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, it was chapter by chapter. That means the cultural exemption applies not to the whole agreement, but only where it is mentioned.What kind of exemption is in CUSMA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsTrade agreements6088663608866460886656088666Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGarryNeilGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil: (1750)[English]It is a universal exemption. It's an exemption from all of the provisions. Let me briefly compare it with CETA. The difference with CETA, the difference between CETA and the CPTPP, is that the chapter-by-chapter cultural exemptions were mutual. Both Canada and Europe agreed that cultural industries would be exempt from those obligations. There is an asymmetrical definition—for us it's cultural industries and for Europe it's audiovisual services—but it's a mutual understanding. Those chapter-by-chapter mutual exemptions are underpinned by a strong recognition of our mutual support for the UNESCO convention. It's a very, very powerful way to exempt, but it's unique because it's basing it, in some ways, on the UNESCO convention. In my opinion, a future progressive trade strategy for culture would be to base it on the UNESCO convention, where both parties are signatories to the convention, as the fundamental underpinning. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsTrade agreements608866760886686088669Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1750)[Translation]Perfect.Generally speaking, you seem fairly satisfied with the provisions governing culture in the agreement. Is that right?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsTrade agreements60886706088671GarryNeilGarryNeilGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil: (1750)[English]Yes. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsTrade agreements6088672Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1750)[Translation]Okay.My next question is for Ms. MacEwen, national services senior economist at the Canadian Union of Public Employees.You seem equally satisfied with the labour-related parts.Last week, witnesses told us that most of the labour-related provisions with actual teeth affect only the auto industry and that the rest is merely intention. Do you agree with that criticism?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour relationsTrade agreements6088673608867460886756088676GarryNeilAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1750)[English] Definitely there are parts of the labour chapter that are aspirational, but there are also requirements, especially concerning Mexico and the right to collective bargaining. Right now, only about 1% of trade unions in Mexico are democratic, independent trade unions. The current government had wanted to make some change on that front, and the labour chapter and the side agreement with Mexico and the rapid-response mechanism all give them a forum and will help them get that done domestically.It will make a big difference in terms of bringing democratic trade unions to workers in Mexico, but it also sets a floor and it gives us somewhere to bring complaints about labour violations and hopefully get some changes to happen. There is more enforcement than there has ever been in a trade agreement.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour relationsTrade agreements6088677608867860886796088680Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1755)[Translation]Those mechanisms apply only to Mexico. You only mentioned Mexico.Does that apply only to Mexico?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour relationsMexicoTrade agreements60886816088682AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1755)[English]There is a unique side agreement with Mexico that deals with they what they call “yellow unions”. The rapid response mechanism is between Canada and Mexico, and between the United States and Mexico; it doesn't apply between Canada and the United States. So there are those two parts, where, in terms of Canada's concern, it's just with Mexico. The labour chapter is trilateral; it's between all three countries. We can bring complaints of labour violations through the labour chapter and we'll have a much better chance of those being successful. The way the burden proof had been, it was impossible to ever win a labour dispute settlement, but we now have the hope that it's possible.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour relationsMexicoTrade agreements60886836088684Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1755)[English]Thank you, Chair; and thank you very much to all the witnesses for appearing here today.Ms. MacEwen, I want to go back to some of your comments about consultation. Granted, we have heard that a number of organizations typically are not satisfied with the level of consultation, more than those that feel they were more included. However, as you say, that depends upon the political culture of the day and the whims of government. It's always nice when winds tend in the right direction, but it's not the same as a guarantee.It's something that we, in the NDP, have tried to make part of this process of talking about trade. We're happy to get some commitments from the government on making at least their initial negotiating objectives public before entering into negotiation, and having to provide an economic impact assessment—which seems like an odd victory, because you'd think it was common sense. Certainly, in a lot of other jurisdictions with which we trade, it is part of their process. We have that coming now in Canada. It's a good first step.Could you speak a bit more about the importance of civic engagement and what it means to have, as matter of policy or law, clear expectations about what type of information Canadians can expect to get from their government with respect to trade agreement negotiation, and the difference that can make?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088687608868860886896088690Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1755)[English] This is a difficult issue. The United States has a much more transparent process that includes legislators. Canada doesn't have that. There's also a process in the United States whereby lobbyists, or people who want to be included in the consultation process, can get clearance to have information that the negotiators have but that isn't public. They can sign for it and then provide advice on how that might impact their particular area of expertise. Those are useful things that we might draw from the United States. I think it's an excellent move on the part of progressive trade to have more transparency, especially to include legislators early on. I think more transparency is useful.We found that people who have the resources and the knowledge to be able to attend these meetings were able to go, and so you're less likely to hear from, say, anti-poverty groups than you are from the Cattlemen's Association. You often have negotiators surrounded by the more powerful interests and they're less likely to hear from less powerful interests. It's unbalanced in that sense. Canada and the United States especially have such an integrated economy that the dividing line isn't always on national grounds. The industry on both sides of the border can be on the same side.It's between the public interest and corporate interest, and so the way the consultations are structured doesn't provide a balance to that effectively, as does not having an independent economic analysis. An economic analysis is useful. An independent one would be better because they would be using better choices. Right now you can make a lot of assumptions in a CGE model. If you make a few different assumptions, you'll end up with 3% growth instead of 2% growth. You want those choices to be made based on the best information available, not your political outcomes. You may want the Parliamentary Budget Officer making those assumptions.I think that's useful for transparency and for the public debate because often people cater to the top line, so it's going to affect dairy farmers or trade across the border, slowing down lines at customs. It will have a significant impact on their lives, but we won't know until after it's been signed and is already affecting us.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088691608869260886936088694DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1800)[English]We had another witness—I think it might have been the CCPA—who said that if we wanted to leverage the most possible out of the state-to-state dispute resolution mechanism, it was important to have a domestic process that essentially allows intervenors to make a case there's a good reason to pursue one of our trading partners under CUSMA. That would be an independent process and if there were a finding that there was cause to pursue this, then there would be an obligation or resources to be able to do that so that it's not just up to government or to the people with the resources to pressure government to take on their cause.Do you have an opinion on that kind of mechanism and would other aspects of the deal be assisted by having that kind of domestic process?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsTrade agreements60886986088699Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1800)[English]Yes, that domestic process definitely needs to be strengthened. In many trade deals or under the OECD rules, we have a national contact point where they can offer good offices. If there's a disagreement, they can say they'll provide a neutral place to meet. However, there's no power of investigation; there's no mandate for them to take it on. When I was at the CLC, we brought forward a complaint under the labour chapter between Canada and Colombia. The labour department investigated. They took it on and produced a fantastic report, but nothing mandated them to do that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsTrade agreements6088700DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1800)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to follow up on Mr. Blaikie's question about process. Mr. McGuire, do you recall when United States legislators, members of the House, received the economic impact assessment that was done with respect to this agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements608870560887066088707Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire: (1800)[English] No, I do not. I wouldn't be able to comment on that. I'd have to get back to you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088708EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1800)[English]If I said that it was in April 2019 and that it was actually published publicly online in April of 2019, would that sound right?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088709Brian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire: (1800)[English]I would trust your statement on that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088710EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1800)[English]That's where the process question comes in. The impact assessment was done for American legislators many, many months ago, before the House of Representatives actually had to vote. In fact, the House of Representatives demanded changes to the agreement, got changes to the agreement—presumably based on their reading of not only of the agreement but also the economic impact assessment—and then the matter was in Canada's hands to ratify.Are you aware that this is our last meeting to discuss this agreement here at committee before we go to clause by clause?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60887116088712Brian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire: (1800)[English]That is my understanding.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088713EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1800)[English]Are you aware that the department's economic impact assessment was table-dropped today for parliamentarians to review?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088714Brian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire: (1800)[English]Again, I would trust your statement on that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088715EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1800)[English]Well, you understand that the process on the two sides of the border is quite different. The one on the American side clearly provided decision-makers in the United States with an opportunity to look at the agreement, look at the impact assessment, suggest additional amendments, and then ratify it. Now it's placed in our care, and we have no opportunity, quite frankly, to make further amendments. You yourself said that you're encouraging urgency; you're encouraging us to act promptly.Now, as my colleague, Mr. Carrie, said, we want to deal with this in a respectful but deliberate way, and do our due diligence to make sure that this agreement is actually in Canada's interest. I think your organization straddles the border. It has members on both sides of the border, correct?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60887166088717Brian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire: (1805)[English]That is correct.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088718EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1805)[English]I want to assure you that we are not in any way attempting to delay this agreement, but we are going to do our due diligence to the degree we're able to, based on our process here in Canada. I will tell you that, quite frankly, I'm very disappointed that it is only now, just before midnight, that we actually get the economic impact assessment from the federal government. It's shameful.I'd like to now go to a question for Mr. Johnston, and perhaps Mr. Neil.Michael Geist's name was mentioned, and Mr. Johnston, you have praised the extension of the copyright term from life plus 50 to life plus 70. As you probably know, Michael Geist might have a little different opinion from yours. He has said that this will be costly for Canadians, with little discernible benefit. I believe there was a Department of Industry report done a number of years ago to the same effect. The conclusion was that, ultimately, this will cost consumers more, as additional royalties are mostly sent out of country.I'd love to have a fairly quick response from both of you, if you would.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements6088719608872060887216088722Brian P.McGuireGarryNeilGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil: (1805)[English]I will go first.I want to underline that copyright is about the rights of artists. It's about the rights of the individuals who create the works that are then exploited economically by others. Any increased protection of the rights of those who create those works is positive.There is an economic imbalance between artists on the one hand and cultural producers on the other hand. There's a solution to that, too, which would be to limit the ability of artists to sign away their copyright, but at the moment we don't have such a mechanism, and because of that economic imbalance, sometimes artists are forced to do it. Still, our copyright is fundamentally about the rights of artists, and additional royalties are fundamentally flowing to the creators of the artistic works.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements608872360887246088725EdFastHon.AbbotsfordJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGregJohnstonGreg-JohnstonInterventionMr. Greg Johnston: (1805)[English]I would agree with the statements of Mr. Neil. Sometimes I feel, when Dr. Geist says it's a cost to consumers, that somehow creators are supposed to bear all of the costs for consumers and are responsible for making sure that consumers don't spend more. That seems a little bit out of our wheelhouse. It is our right, and we deserve to be remunerated for it under copyright law.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements6088727Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1805)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I thank the presenters for their input on this.My question is for Ms. MacEwen.When Mr. Harper was in the House, I noticed that the approach was always either Mr. Harper's way or the highway.I would like to get a little more clarity. What you saw previously under Mr. Harper when all of these agreements were negotiated was that there was zero input from your fellows, that they didn't include you at all.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60887306088731608873260887336088734Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1805)[English]They would have calls, but there would be very little information in the call. It would be after the round, and there really would be no opportunity to give input until after the parliamentary process had happened.The process still hasn't changed to allow input earlier on.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60887356088736SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1805)[English]When you were dealing with this CUSMA situation particularly, how did you feel? Were you included? Was the government proactive, or did you have to call for it? That's what I want to know.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088737AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1805)[English]Absolutely, the government—the public servants who were responsible for setting negotiating priorities and doing negotiations—reached out and met with labour as a group. They met with civil society as a group. Then they said that if you wanted to reach out with regard to a particular topic, if you have questions about the services chapter or the regulatory co-operation chapter, you could ask to meet with specific negotiators. They were very generous with their time.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088738SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1805)[English]So, you met with any of the negotiators.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088739AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1810)[English]Whomever we wanted to meet with—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088740SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1810)[English]—we got to meet.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088742SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1810)[English]So, you were happy. Do you think more progress can be made in the future?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088743AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1810)[English]Absolutely. There can be more progress in terms of making that process mandatory so that it's not a one-off, including legislators, and making the impact assessment earlier on. As for the United States, it's actually in their fast-track legislation; there are timelines for when the impact assessment has to be delivered to Congress. As it is now, we were included in the discussion, so that ended up getting us a better deal than we could have gotten otherwise. The labour chapter in particular was much improved by discussions with labour groups. However, we can't make any changes now. It's too late.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60887446088745SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1810)[English]It's done now. The CUSMA—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088746AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1810)[English] But there was no opportunity between the signing of the deal and its ratification to give any more feedback, as happened in the U.S.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088747SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1810)[English]That's just the difference in our process.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6088749SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1810)[English]Overall, do you think it's a win-win situation for workers and not just, as it's always been, for businesses?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions6088750AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1810)[English]No. I think it's still a failed trade model that doesn't benefit workers. It benefits the most powerful and hurts the least powerful. There is no distributional impact here on how this trade deal will affect people who have a lot of money and power versus people who don't.However, as trade deals go, we were met with and listened to, and there were changes made based on our input, which was nice.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions60887516088752SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1810)[English]I'm glad to hear that.Do I still have time? Okay.My next question is for the Associated Equipment Distributors.Mr. McGuire, is this agreement only going to help the equipment manufacturers in the U.S., or is it equally going to help the equipment manufacturers in Canada?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEquipment dealersGovernment billsTrade agreements6088753608875460887556088756AngellaMacEwenBrian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire: (1810)[English]We believe that the agreement helps both distributors and manufacturers in both countries.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEquipment dealersGovernment billsTrade agreements6088757SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1810)[English]Yesterday, there were equipment manufacturers from Saskatchewan who came in. They were saying that there are certain new requirements that the U.S. brought forward that are going to negatively affect their manufacturing. Are you aware of situations like that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6088758Brian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrian P.McGuireBrianP--McGuireInterventionMr. Brian P. McGuire: (1810)[English]I'm not personally aware of a situation like that. I'd have to research that.I can tell you that our members have not indicated that, from the equipment standpoint on the manufacturing or the distribution side.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60887596088760SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1810)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Ms. MacEwen, you spoke of the importance of an independent analysis of trade agreements. I very much agree with that statement. There was an independent analysis by the C.D. Howe Institute that was released last week. They had a few conclusions in that analysis. They said that, as a result of the new NAFTA agreement, Canada's GDP would go down by $14.2 billion. Exports to the United States from Canada would go down by $3.2 billion, and imports to Canada from the United States will go up by $8.6 billion. When we got the economic impact assessment from the government earlier today, it said that the agreement was fantastic, because all the numbers were going up. The reason for that is the businesses' usual case in the government's assessment was not the old NAFTA agreement, but having no free trade agreement at all with the United States or Mexico.Given the importance of this information, I'm wondering what can be done to ensure that CUPE members and civil servants in general can always provide important, accurate, honest information to both politicians and to the public as a whole?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements608876360887646088765Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1810)[English]That's a very good question.I think it's good that there is the C.D. Howe estimate so that we can compare that with the government estimate and show what the different assumptions were. Often, whenever you're doing economic analysis, it really depends what your assumptions were. You're going to get very different answers. Just having one headline is often not useful to having an honest understanding of what the impact of the deal would be. Making the data available and transparent as to how they arrived at their decision—making the model they used publicly available and allowing others to run the model—might be something to do.I think moving it to the parliamentary budget office or something like that would also be helpful in improving that transparency. I don't think we want to rely on the C.D. Howe Institute or other groups to have to do that every time. I do think it's useful that they did. I'm glad they did, because it highlights that the choices you make in your modelling really matter.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements608876660887676088768MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1815)[English]We also heard earlier today that the high-level economic analyses of this new NAFTA have been going on since at least September 2017. What can be done to ensure that even this high-level analysis can be released to the public and to politicians earlier than it has been? Preferably it would be earlier than today, as was the case.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088769AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1815)[English]Absolutely. In the U.S., it was released over a year ago, I think. Having that information available to the public and allowing people to make that.... I understand that is what happened under the original NAFTA. Information was made public and people understood and had the data available that they needed to be able to model differences. For example, if we did what we did on autos, which made a big difference, and you could model how that's going to play out, it really matters what behavioural assumptions you've made in something like that. I understand that with trade deals there is often secrecy, but having the models out there in the public domain and having the data you need to run your own simulations of it would be quite useful.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60887706088771MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1815)[English]Okay, I can't resist. Mr. Neil, could you tell us the story of the Super Bowl commercials?AdvertisingC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCTV Inc.Government billsTelevision broadcastingTrade agreements6088775Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGarryNeilGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil: (1815)[English]Thank you.CTV paid a lot of money for the rights to broadcast the Super Bowl. They did so on the basis of the policy that said they could substitute.... Any Canadian watching it would have to see their commercials. The economic value to CTV was quite high. Some Canadians have complained about that, but the reality today is that you can watch all of the Super Bowl commercials online before the Super Bowl happens. CTV has to spend 30% of the money it earns from those commercials on Canadian programs. That's a lot of money. Ten percent of that money.... If they make $100 million, they have to spend $10 million on drama and scripted comedy.AdvertisingC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCTV Inc.Government billsTelevision broadcastingTrade agreements60887766088777MichaelKramRegina—WascanaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1815)[English]Thank you.My questions will start with Ms. MacEwen.I heard you mention earlier in your testimony that you were with the Canadian Labour Congress. What position did you hold with the Canadian Labour Congress?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608878360887846088785Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1815)[English]I was the senior economist there as well.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088786RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1815)[English]You were the senior economist.How long have you been an economist?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60887876088788AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1815)[English]I graduated in 2007.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088789RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1815)[English]As senior economist at the Canadian Labour Congress, you also had experience with other trade deals.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088790AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1815)[English]Yes.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088791RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1815)[English]Currently you are chief economist for the Canadian Union of Public Employees, is that right?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088792AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1815)[English]Yes.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088793RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1815)[English]How many people, or how many employees, do you have?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088794AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1815)[English]CUPE represents 700,000 workers across Canada. I work for the national office here in Ottawa. I think the national office includes about 600 people who work for the national union.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088795RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1815)[English]You mentioned early on, in answer to a previous question, that it is very difficult to make an economic assessment until the deal is done.Can you explain that further?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60887966088797AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1815)[English]There are regulatory changes around intellectual property, cultural protection, or extension of copyright that will have an economic impact.The past three deals were mostly about tariffs, so you could model what a 1% change to different tariffs would mean, and that was more straightforward. Now, however, we've mostly eliminated tariffs, and our trade and investment treaties are about more abstract things. The specific wording in the deal really affects what its impact will be.You have to analyze that specific wording and then interpret it to set the assumptions that you're making in your model.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements608879860887996088800RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1820)[English]In your opinion, you would have to wait until after, for example in the case of CUSMA, the changes made at the end of December....C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088801AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1820)[English]What you could have done with CUSMA is have an internal economic analysis of what you're negotiating priorities were. This could help to form your negotiating priorities. What do we want to get out this? Then, once you have your initial drafts, you would run the numbers again. At that point, you would use that information to determine if you wanted to make any further changes, or if you needed to. If you were to see that this was actually having an unexpected negative impact on the cultural industries in Quebec, for example, and it was a bigger driver than you had thought when you were negotiating, then you would put a bigger priority on making sure that you changed that language.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088802RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1820)[English]Absolutely. I agree with you on the negotiating position and your objective, but when you're dealing with a trade agreement as complex as CUSMA in a political context where you don't know where those negotiations might take you, you agree that, as you said, you would wait until the deal was done to perform any economic assessment.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088803AngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngellaMacEwenAngella-MacEwenInterventionMs. Angella MacEwen: (1820)[English]To do any economic assessment, no; but to have the final economic assessment, yes.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6088804RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1820)[English]Thank you.My next question is for Mr. Neil.Mr. Neil, you did mention that the cultural exemption in CUSMA is a lot stronger than that found under the original NAFTA. I wonder if you could expand on that a little bit in the short time we have left.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsTrade agreements608880560888066088807AngellaMacEwenGarryNeilGarryNeilGarry-NeilInterventionMr. Garry Neil: (1820)[English]The problem with the cultural exemption in the original NAFTA was that it was simply incorporating into the terms of NAFTA the cultural exemption from the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement.The scope of that exemption was taken from the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement and it was narrow. It was limited to those elements that the FTA covered. There was a giant hole that could easily have been exploited. There were a couple of cases over the years where that became evident. This cultural exemption is clear, direct, and comprehensive. It says cultural industries are exempt from the terms of this agreement, period.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCultural industryGovernment billsTrade agreements60888086088809RachelBendayanOutremontJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBobFayBob-FayInterventionMr. Bob Fay (Director, Global Economy Research and Policy, Centre for International Governance Innovation): (1835)[English] Thank you very much. Good evening, and thank you, Madam Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to present the views of the Centre for International Governance Innovation.By way of introduction, we go by “CIGI”. We're an independent, non-partisan global governance think tank based in Waterloo, Ontario, and we conduct policy-relevant research exploring global economics, security, politics and international law, with a focus on digital economy issues. Given this background, my comments will relate to Bill C-4 and data and intellectual property.Canada has focused substantial resources and effort on new trade deals to reinforce the rules of the game in international trade, and rightly so. Trade is at the heart of our prosperity. New trade agreements are necessary to open up new markets and preserve old ones, and revised rules are necessary as economies change and to minimize trade frictions. We fully understand that trade-offs were necessary in negotiations of CUSMA and that hard choices had to be made. We believe that the ratification of this agreement will remove some of the trade uncertainty that has dampened economic growth, and my remarks are not designed to hold up ratification. Rather, my objective tonight is to highlight how commitments made in CUSMA related to data and intellectual property may inhibit Canada's ability both to innovate and to develop our own domestic policies. Then I'll offer some suggestions on the way forward.In particular, CUSMA fails to consider the implications of how the nature of trade is changing, moving away from scale and cost efficiencies to, first, intellectual property creation; second, the rise of big data as an economic and social asset; and, third, the resulting imperative of asset protection.What Canada agrees to in these areas has very wide-ranging repercussions for Canada in many forward-looking areas, including our ability to harness data in new technologies such as artificial intelligence, as well as fundamental domestic policies related to privacy, security, intellectual property, foreign direct investment, competition and innovation.Yes, that list is long, and it touches upon all aspects of our economy, and indeed our daily lives, yet we are dealing with these issues currently largely through a trade lens, via a trade agreement that is dominated by U.S. interests. I would also note that the recent mandate letters charge the ministers for ISED, Heritage and Justice with the main task of coordinating new digital and data rights, which recognizes that there are substantial societal issues related to the use and monetization of personal data.Indeed, data is an extremely valuable resource. Statistics Canada—and very good for them—has placed the value of Canadian data at over $200 billion, which is about two-thirds of the value of our oil assets. This number is extremely large, but it pales in comparison with other countries, namely, the United States. For example, the market cap of U.S.-based Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google is about $4 trillion U.S., and that high valuation results from their monopoly positions and huge data stores.Further, these companies are cementing their market positions each and every minute with their continued acquisition of all varieties of data through user engagement with their platforms and fierce protection of their assets by a combination of the de facto rule-setting in the absence of national regulations; trade deals that enshrine open data flows; strong intellectual property protection of their data and AI assets; takeovers of innovative firms through their vast reserves of cash; the acquisition of top talent; and, the powerful information asymmetries that they gain with their data and their technologies.The bottom line is that the data is their intellectual property, and their interests are behind the digital chapter in CUSMA.We have three examples of some of the commitments in that trade agreement that favour them. The first is the treatment of data localization. This part of the agreement is short and not so sweet. It says, “No Party shall require a covered person to use or locate computing facilities in that Party's territory as a condition for conducting business in that territory.” From a commercial perspective, that makes a lot of sense, but this is problematic for many non-economic dimensions. For example, if we took the smart city partnership in Toronto that's proceeding right now with Sidewalk Labs, which is a subsidiary of Alphabet, Canadians may well desire that their detailed data that will result from that city remain in Canada and not be transferred to the U.S., but Canada may be limited in its ability to do so.(1840) Second, under CUSMA, localization is permitted if organizations collect, hold or process that information when those activities are undertaken for or on behalf of a government. However, for national security reasons, if the data were held by a private organization, then CUSMA would technically require the government to allow those data to be released to the other two partner countries. Third, CUSMA contains a safe harbour provision to liberate digital platforms from responsibility for the content that they carry. On the one hand, free speech advocates see this as desirable. On the other, some see the weaponization of platforms like Facebook and YouTube during recent votes such as the 2016 U.S. presidential election as indications of the unwillingness and/or the inability of the digital platforms or governments to regulate content. This is a trade issue because the platforms' business model is supported via massive cross-border data flows. In summary, it is not clear how much policy flexibility CUSMA will ultimately allow the federal or provincial governments in adopting new laws and regulations to achieve objectives like those to protect people's privacy, prevent algorithmic bias, protect critical infrastructure, ensure national security or promote domestic innovation.Let me now conclude with three recommendations on the way forward. First, trade negotiators need to be more fully briefed on the wide-ranging implications of the data-driven economy and the implications arising from existing digital measures in CUSMA and those that could arise going forward with the negotiations that are about to begin at the WTO on e-commerce. We need to be mindful that there are vested interests pervasive in the digital realm and that regional trade agreements are an entry point to manage policy space for areas that go well beyond digital trade. Second, we need new international rules of the game for trade, for foreign direct investment and for intellectual property. As part of this, what Canada could do is push for the creation of a new global organization to set international governance in these areas. Drawing on the experience of the Financial Stability Board that was created in the aftermath of the financial crisis, we have put out a proposal to create a digital stability board. Such an organization would develop standards, regulations and policies across the many realms that digital platforms touch; advise on policy actions needed to address vulnerabilities in a timely manner; and ensure that this work feeds into other international organizations such as the WTO. Finally, we should use the six-year review built into CUSMA to rectify some of these issues that I have outlined.Thank you for your time and attention, and I look forward to any questions you may have.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCensorshipCentre for International Governance InnovationData transmissionElectronic commerceGovernment billsPrivacy and data protectionSocial networking sitesTrade agreements608881960888206088821608882260888236088824608882560888266088827608882860888296088830608883160888326088833608883460888356088836608883760888386088839Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKenKalesnikoffKen-KalesnikoffInterventionMr. Ken Kalesnikoff (Chief Executive Officer, Kalesnikoff Lumber Co. Ltd.): (1845)[English] Thank you very much.Wow. My presentation is going to be a little simpler, and I think my friend Andy Rielly made a good choice of staying at home in B.C., because I'm probably going to be trapped here until spring by the sounds of what's going on outside. Anyway, thank you for your time.I was asked to present here from a common sense point of view as somebody who is on the ground and experiences the softwood lumber agreement. I will tell you now that I am not a NAFTA expert or a USMCA expert—which is apparently what we're going to be calling it.Kalesnikoff Lumber started in 1939 with three brothers: my uncle Koozma—CUSMA, so you confused me right out of the gate—Sam and Pete.We grew from a horse logging operation of about eight people to 150 people currently, and are heading for 200. I'm the third generation in our business. My two children are very engaged, which is very unusual—they're really keeping the old man in line—and they are our fourth generation. We're located in Thrums, B.C., between Castlegar and Nelson in the West Kootenays; and we're about an hour from the U.S. border.Who are we? Through our innovation, we care for the environment, the communities, our employees, and that is a focus for us in everything we do. We are always looking for the next opportunity. Our experience in the forest industry and our ability to be nimble and continue to uphold our positive reputation as wood experts have allowed us not only to survive, but also thrive and grow through industry changes and to be where we are today.Value added is a big piece for me. That's always been important. We've always been about adding as much value as we can to every log that comes into our hands. We make decisions based on maximizing the value from that log depending on its best end-use in the particular wood, our customers, our employees and even our communities. I believe that adding value also creates a diverse, much-needed forest industry.We reinvest. In 1987, we started by spending $5 million on a small log line, and in 2000 spent $3 million on our remanufacturing facility called Kootenay Innovative Wood. In 2005, we put an end matcher in that cost us $800,000. We upgraded the sawmill in 2012 to the tune of $20 million. In 2014, we upgraded the planer for $6 million, and we have just recently announced our adventure into the mass timber industry—$35-million greenfield project is happening now in the Castlegar area.We have been successfully growing our business from a horse logging operation and, as I said, we're now investing into that $35-million dollar world-class mass timber facility. We did this with only 15% to 20% of our timber under tenure. We buy over 80% of our logs on the open market.A big advantage for our getting into mass timber is just our experience with value-added specialty manufacturing, our pre-existing relationships, and our understanding of what it takes to go up the value chain.There are drawbacks to the softwood lumber agreement. Over the years, the softwood lumber agreements have unfairly penalized the value-added specialty manufacturing sector. I'll give you an example. There was an opportunity for us in 2006, I believe. It was when Mr. Emerson was negotiating the deal. We had just spent $800,000 on an end-matching system—that was the upgrade to enable us to do end-matched softwood flooring, which would then go into panelling and siding as far as end matching was concerned. There was a rule that if the product was end-matched all the way around the piece—in other words, both sides and the end—that it would be exempt. Well, that got negotiated away, and I don't even know that he realized what he had done in the stroke of a pen.But that affected us. We didn't even turn that machine on and we lost that advantage. It affected Huscroft in Creston, Wynndel Box in Creston and Gorman Bros. in Westbank. We all had those types of machines being installed.Earlier this year, because of the softwood lumber agreement and the 20-point-whatever per cent duty, we had to make a really difficult decision and shut the remanufacturing plant down because we couldn't afford to make products that were going into the U.S. with a 20%-plus duty on them. Now, our people, because of our moving into the mass timber side, have all been utilized. So, nobody lost a job, but it's causing us a major amount of grief. We also have had customers for 20, 30 or 50 years that we are not able to do business with because of that hurdle.(1850) Because we're a smaller operator, we're more nimble and are able to develop niche products, especially products for customers' needs. That's what we focus on, and the softwood lumber agreement is getting in the way of that all the time. What's next? To be successful in business, we need a predictable and supportive environment. This is an area where I really believe government can help. We also need open and free access to the markets. Companies such as ours have a track record of being committed to their people and community and don't shut down when things get tough, never mind shutting down permanently. Small, independent companies such as ours are much more nimble and we create more value, far beyond the two-by-four. We just need the right log to make the right product, and access to an open market. In our case, that means taking a high-value log and creating more jobs per cubic metre and more economic payback per cubic metre, instead of focusing on volume. However, again, the softwood lumber agreement does get in the way. I do not know whether there's an opportunity to have the softwood lumber agreement encapsulated in the NAFTA agreement. It's probably much too late. However, it would have been very beneficial to have something such as that happen to stabilize the industry, especially for the smaller, independent manufacturers, because we are the ones that are getting hit really hard by this type of penalty.Thank you very much.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDuty exemptionsGovernment billsKalesnikoff Lumber Co. Ltd.Market accessSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements60888426088843608884460888456088846608884760888486088849608885060888516088852608885360888546088855608885660888576088858Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekLindaHasenfratzLinda-HasenfratzInterventionMs. Linda Hasenfratz (Chief Executive Officer, Linamar Corporation): (1850)[English]Good evening, and thank you very much for the invitation to take part in your consultations.I'll say a few words about Linamar. Linamar is a diversified advanced manufacturing company of about 70% in auto parts, and 30% in a variety of industrial products such as access equipment, harvesting equipment, commercial vehicle parts and energy components. Our sales are around $7.5 billion. In nine of the last 10 years, we have grown the top and bottom line at Linamar in double digits. We have—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLinamar CorporationManufacturing industryTrade agreements60888616088862Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAndyRiellyAndy-RiellyInterventionMr. Andy Rielly (President and Owner, Rielly Lumber Inc.): (1855)[English] Thank you very much for the opportunity to address this committee.My name is Andy Rielly. I am the president and owner of Rielly Lumber. We're located in West Vancouver, B.C. Our manufacturing plant is in Chilliwack, B.C. In the interest of contributing to an informed discussion about the USMCA, I will give you a quick overview of our company and the nature of our company's business, the effects of the current trade dispute with the United States over softwood lumber, and why the USMCA is important to our company and the future of our sector. First, Rielly Lumber was founded in 1995 as a manufacturer of western red cedar components and finished products. Our early mission was to make the products that the big sawmills did not want to make or could not make. We do not harvest logs, we do not cut logs and we do not hold Crown tenure. We buy western red cedar lumber and then manufacture finished products. The U.S. is the biggest market, by far, for our products. In 1996 until 2001, the U.S. and Canada entered a softwood lumber agreement that was based on a quota system, which meant that Canadian companies were awarded quota to ship to the U.S. market based on their previous five-year shipping volumes. Having started just one year earlier, Rielly Lumber did not get any quota to ship into the United States, so we did not have access to our main market. Over the next five years, we figured out how to get quota so that we could ship to the U.S. We continued to grow our business, all the time dedicated to manufacturing and to employing people in British Columbia.From 2001 to 2006, like all Canadian companies we paid punitive duties on our finished products shipping into the U.S. in the next lumber dispute, which we called “Lumber IV”. That lumber dispute was solved only after many WTO, and particularly many NAFTA, legal victories by Canada. In late 2006 the new softwood lumber agreement brought a 10-year period that was pretty much duty-free for high-value products. There was no major prohibition to shipping into the United States. As well, in that agreement every Canadian company had a return of over 90% of the duty deposits they'd made for the previous five years. At that time, Rielly Lumber decided to invest the duty deposits returned to us into manufacturing facilities, equipment and creating jobs in British Columbia. The next 10 years were pretty good. We grew our business. Things were going along well until the current trade dispute, which we called “Lumber V”, occurred in April 2007. Again, punitive 27% duties were levied on the selling price of our products. There was the threat of retroactive duties against products that we had shipped previously to when the actual duties came in, with an increased scope of the products. We all thought to ourselves, “Here we go again.” This time, however, the lumber dispute was different, as in worse than Lumber IV. Adding 27% duty to an all-time high price of cedar products resulted in our customers substituting with other products and other species at an astounding rate. New bonding requirements, which were required by U.S. Customs, required large cash deposits by small and medium-sized companies. This was in addition to remitting, every Friday, the duties they had incurred the previous week. Most small and medium-sized companies in Canada cannot continue to post both the deposits on a regular basis and the bond cash requirement. Another aspect of this dispute is that many major companies in Canada have made huge investments in the United States, transplanting a lot of Canadian investments and jobs to the U.S. side of the duty wall. As Ken Kalesnikoff just said, in order to get behind the duty wall, many value-added companies are relocating to the U.S. side of the border to do their manufacturing. I'll give you an idea of the effect on our company. Rielly Lumber sales in 2019 were roughly 62% of what they were in 2016. Employment in our plant went from 41 to 23. This is an alarming trend for secondary value-added companies across British Columbia and Canada. I'll turn now to why the USMCA is important to our company. As you know, most softwood lumber in the first NAFTA agreement was not covered by that. It is not covered in the new USMCA. The most important part of the new USMCA, which is vital to us, is the dispute resolution mechanism, previously known as chapter 19.(1900) In this more challenging diplomatic environment, small independent companies need enforceable rules to protect their interests. Short of reciprocal duties on goods entering our country, which are not likely, Canada will only get negotiating leverage in Lumber V from continued [Technical difficulty--Editor] NAFTA and USMCA legal victories. We have to remember that large companies have made huge investments in the United States, and they're not in any hurry to pressure our provincial governments to solve the current dispute. Hundreds of small and medium-sized Canadian companies are in danger of failing unless we have this dispute resolution system and can manage to make it work faster. New jobs in the forest industry are not going to come from the primary sector. They're only going to come from doing more work in it and adding more value to the resources that we have here. I can state that my main reason for supporting the USMCA is that Rielly Lumber is a Canadian company. We want to continue to manufacture in Canada, and we have no intention of relocating to the far side of the border [Technical difficulty--Editor]. The dispute resolution system is vital to our company, but if we can get another softwood lumber agreement going forward, that would protect the independent companies.In closing, I would say that the value-added sector is something that I've been involved in and where I've worked for the last 35 years. It's been good to me and it's been good to our family. I think it's worth fighting for and I hope you agree.Thank you for listening.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDispute resolutionGovernment billsRielly Lumber Inc.Softwood lumber industryTrade agreements6088865608886660888676088868608886960888706088871608887260888736088874608887560888766088877Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekLindaHasenfratzLinda-HasenfratzInterventionMs. Linda Hasenfratz: (1900)[English] Good evening, and thank you. First, I'll say a few words about Linamar.Linamar is a diverse advanced manufacturing company. We are about 70% in auto parts, and about 30% in a variety of industrial equipment, such as access equipment and harvesting equipment, as well as commercial vehicle parts and energy components. We have $7.5 billion in sales. We have 27,000 employees globally. We manufacture in 61 facilities in 11 countries. About 40% of our plants and about 11,000 of our employees are in Canada.Turning to trade, I believe that an area that is critically important to our prosperity and global competitiveness as a country is free trade agreements. I think it is absolutely critical for us not to lose momentum in this key area, because free trade agreements allow us to have bigger markets to buy from and sell to. They create more opportunities, and more opportunities mean more chances to grow or to cut costs. Free trade agreements have been a key factor in several decisions, as an example, for automotive OEMs to locate in Mexico because of their access to world markets.In my mind, ratifying the new NAFTA deal here in Canada is absolutely critical to Canada's continued economic success. The U.S. has long been Canada's most important trading partner, and vice versa. As I'm sure you know, trade with the U.S. represents more than 75% of our exports, which is 64% of our GDP. We really can't afford to put that at risk and create the enormous costs that added duties would add to those transactions.NAFTA was a deal that created enormous prosperity for all three countries since its inception in 1994. The United States' GDP increased by $12 trillion, reaching 2.8 times the 1994 level. Canadian GDP was up by $1 trillion, reaching, very similarly, 2.7 times its 1994 level. Mexican GDP increased half a trillion dollars to almost twice what it was before the agreement.Importantly, NAFTA also created deep and intricate supply chain optimizations across all three countries. It would be quite disastrous financially to try to unravel those. You can't unscramble the eggs. In the auto sector alone, there are on average seven border crossings between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico for every vehicle that is built. Adding duty to each of these border crossings would add enormous costs to North American-built vehicles, and decrease our competitiveness.We have a great case study right here at Linamar that illustrates that deep integration. We have a program for a cylinder block that we make that is cast in Mexico, comes to Canada for premachining, goes back to the U.S. for additional processing, and comes back to us again in Canada for final machining. Then we ship it to our customer down in the U.S. to be assembled into an engine. Some of those engines come back to Canada to be assembled into vehicles, and then those vehicles are sold in both Canada and the U.S.Why is it so complicated? We are tapping into the great strengths and technologies that have been developed and honed in each of those countries. Instead of each country having to develop the technologies and make the investments to do all that processing in each country for its individual needs, we are pooling our needs and focusing on different parts of the supply chain, and in the end we have a great, highly competitive product that we can sell in many countries, not just North America.The new NAFTA deal has modernized important elements of our trade deal to reflect technologies and realities that didn't exist 25 years ago, but at the same time, from our perspective, will keep consistent core elements of the deal. That means we will see minimal disruption of existing supply chains, which is really key. From an automotive perspective we see only upsides, no downsides for Canadian companies to the changes that were implemented. Higher regional value content means opportunity for work, potentially, as automakers who maybe are not meeting the new standard. Maybe some of the German manufacturers, for instance, will decide to onshore some product. High labour value content may also result in some opportunities for Canadian suppliers to help increase this measure of content in the vehicle.(1905)It is important to remember that we don't win business by being protectionist. We win business based on innovation and efficiency. That's where we should all try to focus and try to eliminate barriers to growth.At Linamar, our Canadian plants are our most productive globally of all of our 61 plants. We have the deepest bench here, we have the best increases in productivity here, which, by the way, has increased by 34% in the last six years, and we have the strongest commitment here to continuous improvement in our facilities every single day.We can compete with any country with our product and our process innovation and efficiency, and we do so. We've invested billions of dollars in our Canadian plants in recent years to launch billions of dollars of new business, almost all of which, by the way, ships to the U.S. We critically need the new NAFTA agreement to be ratified to bring certainty to our ability to continue to compete in this manner.Last, I wanted to comment on timing. The U.S. and Mexico have already moved to ratify the agreement in their respective legislatures. While of course it's important to fully understand and to vet the deal—I appreciate that this has happened, and I encourage that to happen—I do caution against excessive or unnecessary delays or attempts to rewrite something that frankly I think has gone as far as we could get it to go.Business leaders across North America are supporting swift ratification of the agreement—many I speak to—to keep North America tariff free, make the economy even more vibrant and competitive, drive investment and, of course, support the creation of jobs.Thank you very much for the opportunity to address your committee. I look forward to your questions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsLinamar CorporationManufacturing industryTrade agreements6088881608888260888836088884608888560888866088887608888860888896088890608889160888926088893608889460888956088896Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKevinYoungKevin-YoungInterventionMr. Kevin Young (Chief Executive Officer, Woodtone Industries): (1910)[English]Madam Chair, committee members and staff, thank you for the opportunity to talk with you about Bill C-4, softwood lumber, and Woodtone. I think there are some commonalities in some of the presentations here this evening.I am Kevin Young, and I serve as chief executive officer of Woodtone Industries, a family-run company with facilities in Chilliwack, B.C.; Armstrong, B.C.; and Everett, Washington. We employ over 300 people across our operations, which are built on a 40-year legacy of excellence and integrity.At Woodtone our overarching belief is that everybody should live in a great-looking home that lasts a lifetime and doesn't sacrifice the environment to achieve this goal. Our teams design, manufacture and market Woodtone's finished building products for home interiors and exteriors. Our family at Woodtone is proud to offer some of the finest finished building products available anywhere in the world. We don't cut down trees, and we don't make commodity two-by-fours, but we respect and appreciate the primary producers that do. Our specialty at Woodtone is high-value finished wood products. Our products are unique in that they have no grade stamps and are not intended for structural construction purposes. All of our products are prefinished—either pre-stained or pre-painted—and are ready for installation in new home construction.Although our products can be found around the world, the United States and Canada remain our key markets. We welcome and embrace future efforts by governments to address the softwood lumber dispute in earnest after CUSMA is concluded.The asymmetrical impact of the softwood dispute has been uniquely devastating for Canada's value-added sector and workers. At Woodtone we've had to make tough choices, like many others, including relocating technology, processing knowledge, and moving jobs south. In January 2018, we announced the move of 20 direct jobs and over $1 million in technology from our Canadian operation to our facility in Everett, Washington. While primary producers have enjoyed sustained demand and record prices during the dispute, processors down the value chain have not. We've lost exports and we've lost jobs. This dynamic still exists. We believe that, when you consider spinoffs including transportation and other suppliers, up to 120 direct and indirect jobs are in play in our operations. We want to recalibrate before it is too late. That is why we are here today.We don't want to lose the opportunity to repatriate some of this work for finished products not at the core of the softwood dispute. Our products fall outside the intended scope of the softwood lumber dispute. They can be readily differentiated at the border at the time of export. At the border we need a solution that works for authorities; a solution that is feasible, administrable and enforceable well into the future. This brings us to Bill C-4. We support members of the committee amending Bill C-4 to provide for an independent study mechanism on finished exports outside the dispute. Specifically, we seek a review by a panel of experts for finished wood products that is consistent with past Canada-U.S. trade precedents. This, we believe, could be done by amending the reference to softwood in Bill C-4. This will provide reassurance to U.S. authorities that the scope language is enforceable, administrable, and will reduce circumvention. Possible positive outcomes here include hyphenating the product codes 4407 and 4409, which can be done to assist local border agents in processing our exports with confidence. This is similar to efforts to accommodate U.S. plywood manufacturers back in the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement.With a simple majority vote at clause-by-clause, committee members can make an independent review happen by amendment. I'm not here to ask members of the committee to renegotiate NAFTA or the new CUSMA. It would not be wise to reopen negotiations with either Mexico or the United States. Enhancing Bill C-4 as it relates to softwood lumber is not changing the trade deal. You can take or leave the deal, but the legislation can be improved in this one area.(1915)We want to work with committee members on appropriate language for an amendment. We encourage the members of the committee to act with confidence, supported by past precedent and sound public policy in the public interest. Our approach is collaborative and is achievable. Not only will it benefit Woodtone, but other operations in B.C., Quebec and the Maritimes will also benefit.The Woodtone approach is not a cure or a solution to the softwood lumber dispute, but it is an effort to help a volume of exports that should not otherwise be in the dispute. We want to take the steps necessary to address the concerns. What we are talking about does not impact Mexico. It is specific to local border entry points to help local officials process our finished products.We commend the co-operation of members on the committee and the positive initiatives to use Bill C-4 to improve Canada's future trade deals and arrangements.We thank our local MPs and all members of the committee for this chance to be heard. By working together now, we can improve Bill C-4 moving forward and improve cross-border trade in finished wood products not in dispute.Thank you, and I welcome questions and comments and wish the committee good luck and wisdom in your continued work.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreementsWoodtone Industries6088899608890060889016088902608890360889046088905608890660889076088908608890960889106088911608891260889136088914Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMikeBeckMike-BeckInterventionMr. Mike Beck (Operations Manager, Capacity Forest Management): (1915)[English] Thank you.I'm Mike Beck with Capacity Forest Management. I'm their operational planner. We have managed over 20 first nation clients in B.C. We help gather tenure through government to government as well as licencee negotiations. We've also been instrumental in two foundation agreements that have taken place in B.C. with the shíshálh Indian band as well as Lake Babine Nation.I've been invited to discuss the impacts of the softwood lumber dispute and how it is creating issues with first nations businesses and collaborations with forestry licensees, businesses and lumber mills in B.C.As you know, a few people have already noted that the softwood lumber agreement has basically been a long outstanding issue between Canada and the United States. Basically, this agreement that we've been sitting on has been expired since 2015. The current government hasn't seemed to place the softwood lumber agreement as a top priority to settle during the negotiation processes and ratification of NAFTA between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico. The softwood lumber issues around the competition between Canada and the United States lumber companies are a major problem resulting from differences in their respective forest management principles.The dispute is based on the U.S. lumber industry opposing the low Canadian stumpage rates and transportation costs, perceived by the U.S. as an unfair advantage that subsidizes our lumber industry. The U.S. has been imposing duties and tariffs on Canada since the early 1900s, and the softwood lumber dispute is not going away any time soon. Canadian forest management principles are vastly different, and to compare one against the other is very onerous and well documented. A healthy Canadian log and lumber business requires certainty and fair market pricing. In order to achieve this, the Canadian government needs to bring the softwood lumber agreement to the forefront and finalize a long-term deal that avoids protectionist measures on both sides of the border.Canadian logs and lumber require unencumbered access to world markets in order to return the highest possible pricing. Protectionist measures in this case create an unnecessary cost to Canadian sawmillers, and these costs are passed on to the log sellers, which pushes log prices down domestically. Recent court decisions and reconciliation agreements for first nations are providing control of their timber resources within their unceded territory. The federal government needs to create forestry policies that will ensure success, sustainability and create long-term, meaningful jobs in the industry as well as first nations businesses and ventures.Imposed U.S. countervailing duties and tariffs have denied the maximum price on logs, which has impacted profit margins for first nations businesses that sell to Canadian mills. There's a requirement for major reforms and policy to remove restrictions on log exports in order to eliminate uncertainty in the Canadian forest industry and allow the highest return and highest prices for our renewable resource.Duties and tariffs need to be eliminated and a long-term softwood lumber agreement needs to be ratified to ensure a healthy, sustainable and stable forest industry in Canada. The impacts for first nations forestry businesses are, again, another vital component. It's impacting negatively with our first nations businesses, agreements and collaborations with Canadian forest industry partners. Canada is required to challenge and amend the Export and Import Permits Act that would ratify the softwood lumber agreement, as there are significant impacts. The current U.S. countervailing duties and tariffs are affecting the economic success of the Canadian forest industry, including first nations businesses that are selling their logs to local Canadian lumber mills.Some Canadian first nations bands, as part of the ongoing reconciliation process such as foundation agreements, are receiving timber rights to harvest Crown timber within their unceded territories. These first nations forestry opportunities, timber tenures and licences provide economic benefit and stability, long-term employment and training opportunities for first nations communities and future first nations business investment opportunities. The impacts of the current softwood duties and tariffs on the Canadian first nations forestry business is that Canadian local sawmills are basing their log purchase pricing on current log markets but factor in the percentage of the tariffs and duties so that the mills pay to reduce the log prices, which impacts first nations businesses and projects negatively.As well, the U.S. countervailing duties and tariffs impact the bottom line for first nations businesses and ventures. They're looking for the highest economic benefit for their timber resources within their unceded territory.(1920) Currently, with the economies of scale of first nation forestry businesses being upstream log sellers, they are additionally impacted financially as their businesses will not see any reimbursement of duty deposits from the United States once a dispute is settled, as these costs are typically factored into the local mill log purchase pricing agreements at the beginning of the projects.Ultimately, I'm drawn back to the current government mandate, in which one of their top priorities is reconciliation with Canadian indigenous people, as well as wanting to implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples to allow government to bring federal laws and policies for Canadian first nations to pursue economic, social and cultural development needs. Based on the government non-action to settle the long-standing softwood lumber agreement, it is not placed in value for Canadian first nation forestry businesses and the Canadian forest industry. Again, there is a requirement to ratify in NAFTA, Bill C-4, regarding the long-standing softwood lumber agreement, to remove the tariffs and duties. If that is not in place and there's no agreement, this will create considerable adverse effects and restrictions for the first nation forestry businesses.As for some of the impacts that we're currently seeing with the softwood lumber agreement, some first nations forestry businesses are having a hard time being successful and sustainable. As well, first nation business-to-business agreements and collaborations with other Canadian forest industry partners, ultimately impacting forest economic earnings to the nations and bands, are also creating some issues. Lower lumber market pricing and duties and tariffs, creating mill closures or curtailments, are creating some issues as well around the nations and territories. We're also seeing major licensees establish more mills in the United States than Canada due to the additional duties and taxes, to ensure market competitiveness and balance their dependence on local Canadian log supply. These moves create fewer good-paying jobs for Canadians, as well as first nation band members, and limit log-pricing competition to sell logs at lower market pricing, or better, with these mill closures. In closing, I want to ensure that the softwood lumber agreement stays at the Canadian government's top priority for settlement and is ratified in some way that will make first nation businesses stay competitive and not be penalized any longer by the unfair and unjust United States' lumber tariffs and duties. We need our Canadian government to defend our forest management systems and challenge the subsidy, to remove the tariffs and countervailing duties, since wood is used in a wide range of industries and doesn't qualify as a subsidy under U.S. law. As well, the actions of the U.S. are driven by protectionism rather than unfair management practices and stumpage rate determination.Again, it will be vital to have collaborative discussions and engagement between government, first nation forestry businesses, and the Canadian forest industry to ensure a fair ratification of the softwood lumber agreement to make certain first nation businesses and ventures, and the Canadian forestry industry, economically successful and sustainable in Canada.That is all I have to say. If you have any questions, I'll look forward to responding.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCapacity Forest Management Ltd.Customs tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6088917608891860889196088920608892160889226088923608892460889256088926608892760889286088929608893060889316088932608893360889346088935Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekWaughWilliamWaugh-WilliamInterventionMr. William Waugh (President, WWW Timber Products Ltd.): (1925)[English] We're together.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWWW Timber Products Ltd.6088938Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek-InterventionMr. Patrick Leblond (As an Individual): (1925)[English] Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair.I'll make my remarks in French, but I'm happy to take questions in English.[Translation]Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear here this evening. I would like to note that I'm here as an individual, so my comments and answers are in no way binding on the organizations I'm associated with.I believe the agreement must come into force as soon as possible, as other witnesses have stated, not because it's better than NAFTA—it's not, and for more on that, see the analysis by Dan Ciuriak for the C.D. Howe Institute—but because we must avoid the uncertainty that plagued the negotiations. If Canada were to refuse to implement the Canada-U.S.-Mexico Agreement, the U.S. President would most likely carry out his threat to withdraw the United States from NAFTA.If the White House did that and it ended up in court, that would have a very negative effect on the entire North American economy, especially the Canadian economy, because investments would be delayed or simply shifted to the United States. Companies would focus on the United States because they would see it as the biggest market. In addition, the costs of many business transactions between Canada and the United States could increase to offset the risk associated with the possible end of NAFTA. This scenario must therefore be avoided at all costs.CUSMA is certainly not perfect. I'm sure you've heard plenty of criticism. In the time I have left, I would like to focus on two elements. Bob Fay already mentioned one, but I'd like to go into that in a little more detail.In the future, the Canadian government's commitments under Chapter 19, which covers digital trade, may constrain domestic regulations that federal and provincial governments may wish to put in place to govern data flows between Canada and the United States and the digital space in Canada. I discussed this topic in detail in an October 2019 paper published by the Centre for International Governance Innovation, where I am a senior fellow.For example, U.S. or Mexican companies, especially U.S. companies, could lobby the U.S. government to initiate a dispute over regulations requiring data localization in the private sector for privacy or national security reasons. That is the issue. The agreement contains a “legitimate public policy objective” exception. No one knows what that means. Ultimately, if there were a dispute between Canada and the United States over data localization, for example, a panel of arbitrators would be called upon to settle the dispute. The panel would have to determine what constitutes a legitimate objective in Canadian public policy.So the question is, even if the panel is established jointly, do we want to let unelected, technocratic arbitrators decide what Canada can or cannot do? The same issue arises with article 19.7, which states that computer service suppliers cannot be held responsible for content on their platform. This mirrors the immunity laid out in section 230 of the U.S. Communications Decency Act of 1996.The general WTO exception applies in this case, for example to defend public morality. The Canadian government could therefore decide, for reasons of public morality, to institute measures making companies that transmit content, such as Facebook, responsible for the content they transmit. That said, Facebook could appeal to the U.S. government on the grounds of article 19.7, alleging discrimination. Under CUSMA, Canada would therefore not be able to apply such a measure. This would result in a more constrained environment for Canadian companies and a less constrained one for American companies.Here is my recommendation to this committee: The government and its partners should define in detail what constitutes a legitimate public policy objective in the context of the agreement so that business has greater regulatory and future certainty, especially with respect to data flows.(1930) Lastly, we mustn't forget that CUSMA is set to expire 16 years after coming into force. After six years, the parties may review the agreement. The problem is that, for companies with an investment horizon longer than 15 years, uncertainty about whether the agreement will cease to exist partway through the lifespan of their investments could prompt them to invest in the United States rather than in Canada.Not knowing which agreement will apply in 10 or 15 years, anyone looking to invest tens or hundreds of millions of dollars over the next 20 or 25 years in either Canada or the United States could decide to invest in the latter. That means investment and job losses in Canada. Therefore, the sooner the parties can give CUSMA some permanence, the better for Canada.Thank you. I'm happy to answer your questions in French or English.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCensorshipElectronic commerceGovernment billsInternet neutralityInvestmentPrivacy and data protectionTrade agreements608894260889436088944608894560889466088947608894860889496088950608895160889526088953608895460889556088956Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1930)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you very much, witnesses, for coming out this evening. It's really good to see the softwood lumber witnesses tonight. It's better late than never, not unlike the Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement itself—better late than never. I'm talking about how we got this report shortly after noon today. I've been going through it, and I see in the very first paragraph on page 2 six words that say “reduces red tape at the border”. Great. I'll continue on to page 5—and I only got to page 5 because I only got this shortly after 12 today—where it goes on to say:However, the gains will be partially offset by new market access to Canada's supply-managed sectors and more restrictive rules of origin for automobiles and auto parts that will likely increase auto-part production in North America but also lead to higher production costs. In particular, implementing the CUSMA outcome:....My first question is for Ms. Hasenfratz. I heard you talk about shipping parts back and forth across the border, right? This would suggest that it's supposed to be much smoother. The C.D. Howe report suggests that there's going to be “border thickening”, as they call it. We do know that the government has not put any extra time, effort or money into the CBSA, who will be the ones implementing this and the tariffs. My question is twofold. Number one, are you concerned from the auto parts sector that there's going to be a potential issue at the border? Number two, the auto industry would very much like this CUSMA deferred for them to January 2021. Do you share the same ambition?Automotive industryBordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60889596088960608896160889626088963608896460889656088966Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekLindaHasenfratzLindaHasenfratzLinda-HasenfratzInterventionMs. Linda Hasenfratz: (1930)[English]I personally don't have concerns that there's going to be a holdup at the border. I think that when anything new comes in there's potentially some uncertainty, and it takes some time to kind of get your arms around that. There may be some potential issue, but I personally don't see that—and our team doesn't—as a major risk. I think some of the discussion around implementation timing is really to just get better clarity on exactly how some of these rules are going to work. There's a bit of a question about the detail around it, which is why there's been some discussion around delaying the implementation, just to make sure that everybody has very good clarity on how the calculations work and that type of thing. Automotive industryBordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60889676088968ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssexLindaHasenfratzLinda-HasenfratzInterventionMs. Linda Hasenfratz: (1930)[English]That's my understanding of it.Automotive industryBordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6088970ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1930)[English]That's perfect. Thank you.My next question is for you, Mr. Young. I listened keenly to your opening speech, which was very interesting.How has the dispute impacted your operations? You refer to “tough choices”. Can you share a bit more about these tough choices and the asymmetrical impact of the dispute on your operations and your people?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608897160889726088973LindaHasenfratzKevinYoungKevinYoungKevin-YoungInterventionMr. Kevin Young: (1930)[English]Thank you for the question.It's obviously very difficult to make choices when you have 300 families who work with you and you have to let some of those families go in one location and hire them in another. We're a Canada-based business, and ideally in our world we'd like to see more Canadian wood processed in Canada. The challenge we've found is that as a smaller independent producer the impact of the duties is quite asymmetrical relative to what the primary producers face.Just as an example, the primary producers are producing two-by-fours and shipping them down to the U.S. They're going to pay a duty on that. The asymmetry is that the higher price of that wood becomes the higher price of my input. That becomes my cost. Therefore, the more value I add in Canada, again, the more duty that we pay in Canada. We did some quick numbers. It's about three times the amount of duty we pay for every board foot of finished product that goes across the line.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608897460889756088976ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1935)[English] Thank you.Do you have a suggested wording for an amendment—I think that's what you were speaking about—and why will an amendment help again?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements60889776088978KevinYoungKevinYoungKevinYoungKevin-YoungInterventionMr. Kevin Young: (1935)[English]The quick answer is yes, we do, and we've provided the committee with some suggested language around the amendment.When we approached the Department of Commerce back in 2017, they had two areas they were concerned about. The first one was identification and the second was circumvention. They suggested that we ask the Government of Canada for assistance. If the Government of Canada would ask the Department of Commerce for this, then we would move ahead with the study.The study is really just going back to past precedent, to say, okay, let's have a look at.... It goes back to 1988, with plywood. All they did at the time was to have a look. Both sides of the border were manufacturing plywood, and they did a review of it. They presented letters. The amendment basically allowed them to take plywood out of the softwood lumber dispute and move it into the free trade agreement, and then it had a trail off of duties.The amendment is intended to allay the concerns of the Department of Commerce that Canada can ask for and provide a study of finished wood products. Again, there are a variety of manufacturers across Canada. It's to look at those products and to do so in such a way that describes them so that it allays the concerns of the Department of Commerce.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6088979608898060889816088982ChrisLewisEssexJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya (Nepean, Lib.): (1935)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Fay, I'm so glad you came here to talk about the data-driven economy. We had NAFTA for a long time. Now we have this new NAFTA, CUSMA, but it is not going to dramatically change. This agreement is good. It brings some stability to the Canadian economy.Look at what has happened with respect to trade in the last, say eight or 10 years. I think in 2011 our exports to the United States were around $315 billion. Last year, it was $320 billion or $324 billion. Our imports about 10 years back were around $280 billion. Now we're just $290 billion.This agreement is important. It brings stability to a lot of the economy, but it doesn't address the economy of the future. We have steel industries. They were producing 16 million tonnes 20 years ago. They are producing the same 15 million tonnes today. The aluminum industry has not seen an increase in storage capacity for the last 15 years.Basically this agreement is good. It brings stability. However, it is not addressing the future and where the world economy is going, namely, towards a knowledge-based economy. Nobody has talked here about software for autonomous vehicles. Nobody has talked about robotics. Nobody has talked about artificial intelligence and how it impacts not just the Canadian corporate sector, not just the economy, but Canadian society itself.I'm glad you talked about the data-driven economy. As you pointed out—and as in this agreement—we have been waiting for six years on our negotiator. We all are policy-makers. We can understand more the impact of these things, so that when the review comes in, we can look at and also focus on these things.Obviously, the existing industries are quite loud in their lobbying, and that draws attention from the lawmakers, the policy-makers, the negotiators. However, the six-year time frame will hopefully give us some breathing space to look into the other aspects that have not been considered.You touched on FDI, foreign direct investment. Many people don't know that two-thirds or about 65% of Canadian trade is due to companies that are owned by foreign investors, foreign companies. Their foreign direct investment play a very major role in the Canadian economy and Canadian trade. They control 65% of the trade.You mentioned that we need to have new international rules for FDI and intellectual property. Let's not go to intellectual property. I know that's a big thing, a very, very important thing. That is our next natural resource. That is the only thing that can replace the natural resources.Can you quickly highlight, keeping it short, the fundamental change you want to see internationally on the foreign direct investments.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForeign investments in CanadaGovernment billsTrade agreements6088985608898660889876088988608898960889906088991608899260889936088994Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBobFayBobFayBob-FayInterventionMr. Bob Fay: (1940)[English]Thank you for the question. I've been listening to the conversation. Just to maybe reinforce what you were saying, we have heard from the softwood lumber industry. Our natural resources are an important production factor in the Canadian economy, and we need a trade agreement to protect those industries and help them flourish.Data is a factor of production. Data and data analytics will drive growth going forward.With respect to FDI, I think one of the questions that's open is whether we allow the multinationals that dominate the data industry to take out Canadian innovator firms or whether there should be a review.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForeign investments in CanadaGovernment billsTrade agreements6088995608899660889976088998ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1940)[English]Are you suggesting that we control foreign direct investment?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForeign investments in CanadaGovernment billsTrade agreements6088999BobFayBobFayBobFayBob-FayInterventionMr. Bob Fay: (1940)[English]I'm suggesting that we need to take a second look at how multinational investment is taking place in key sectors of the Canadian economy. I'm not suggesting that we should restrict or impose new regulation. I think we need to look at it and to see what exactly is happening on the ground. For example, Google will list on its website the publicly listed companies it buys out, but there is a flourishing SME sector where the takeouts happen.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForeign investments in CanadaGovernment billsTrade agreements6089000ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1940)[English]There are a lot of new technology industries in Ottawa. Ottawa has the biggest cluster of high-tech industries, most of them mom-and-pop shops. There are 1,700 knowledge-based companies in the national capital region; nobody realizes that. But as and when they find something that is exciting or marketable—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60890016089002BobFayJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1940)[English]—they get taken over. Yes, that's a point well made. I think we should look into that. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6089004Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1940)[Translation]I thank all the witnesses for their very diverse comments. Many of you are in the same field, but many are not, so this study has been very interesting from the start.I'll probably ask you my first question, Mr. Leblond. At one point you said NAFTA is better than CUSMA. I'm curious to know why that is.Indeed, most of the witnesses we heard from, apart from those in the agricultural sector, told us that, at worst, it's the status quo. Many identified gaps. Few witnesses other than those in the ag sector identified setbacks.I'd like to know in which areas you think CUSMA is worse than NAFTA.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6089007608900860890096089010Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek-InterventionMr. Patrick Leblond: (1940)[Translation]Thank you for your question.It's not necessarily worse, at least not according to economists who have studied its potential impact on the economy as a whole in terms of GDP, for example. Of course, there is always a significant margin of error.The most recent study by Mr. Ciuriak of the C.D. Howe Institute shows that, overall, there may be a very small decline. However, other agreements were expected to have a positive effect on GDP. Even the United States International Trade Commission in Washington came to the conclusion that, overall, the new agreement would have little or no effect. It estimated that any positive effect would derive primarily from reduced uncertainty regarding the new agreement. In terms of quality, the agreements are therefore comparable. The new one is more up-to-date in certain respects, such as the chapter on digital trade. However, as I indicated, that chapter is problematic because of how Canada's commitments could affect digital data regulations our government might want to make. As you know, some stakeholders in the ag sector aren't happy.My source was the analyses that have been done. It seems clear that there are no significant gains here. Overall, it's pretty much the status quo.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60890116089012608901360890146089015Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1945)[Translation]Farmers told us this is a step backward, but that there is a way to compensate. In terms of digital trade, is there a way to compensate?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6089016-InterventionMr. Patrick Leblond : (1945)[Translation]As I explained, the problem is mainly related to regulations. If the government decides to go ahead with protecting Canadians from bad content or material on digital platforms, American platforms can say the government can't do that because, in the agreement that we signed with them, we made a commitment not to hold them responsible, whereas Canadian companies are responsible.There is also the issue with Netflix and taxes. Netflix doesn't pay GST, and businesses here complain that their services are taxed. This creates an environment where competition isn't necessarily fair. It also raises questions about what we want to do as a society and as a government to protect our businesses, Canadians and national security, among other things.There's also a grey area, as I said in my remarks. The agreement says that exceptions can be made for legitimate public policy objectives.What does that really mean in practice? Where's the line? Ideally, we should try to define it, and the agreement doesn't do that, in my opinion.We could be in for some surprises in a few years if the government wanted more control and more regulations governing the digital realm.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60890176089018608901960890206089021Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1945)[Translation] What you're saying is that there's a grey area rather than a rule that is definitely not in our interest, something vague.There is an institution called the NAFTA Free Trade Commission, which helps clarify and interpret agreements once they're in force. That could be a possible way forward. Feel free to make recommendations to us if you can. We'll be monitoring this with great interest.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60890226089023//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1945)[Translation] There's a question I would have liked to ask everyone involved in the softwood lumber industry.As you probably know, in Quebec, the price is set by the market, or, to be precise, by an auction system. This system is not recognized in the agreements, which means that in the event of a trade dispute with the U.S. government, Canada's system as a whole is taken into account.Do you think it would be possible and useful to formally recognize that Quebec has a different system for softwood lumber?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608902760890286089029Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1945)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Leblanc, a few years ago, we had a debate about Cambridge Analytica. Some of us thought the government should take a more legislative approach.If I understand correctly, you think that will not be possible under the new agreement.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrivacy and data protectionTrade agreements608903260890336089034Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek-InterventionMr. Patrick Leblond : (1945)[Translation] It's not that it wouldn't be possible, but I have a question, and I'm not the only one. Platforms like Facebook and Google offer content, but at the moment, in the United States and under our agreement, they have immunity. They cannot be prosecuted. They're self-regulating, in a way. The question is, do we need to regulate the content that's on these platforms? That's debatable. If, because of what happened with Cambridge Analytica or misinformation, Canada made these platforms responsible for their content, they could say that our regulations do not apply to them by virtue of a clause in the agreement that says they're not responsible. It's important to remember that, in the case of Cambridge Analytica, Facebook sold data when perhaps it shouldn't have done so. If that were to happen, Canada would invoke the legitimate public policy objective exception, but would it be recognized in the event of a dispute?At the moment, we don't have an answer to that, but, ultimately, do we want to let a panel of three arbitrators make decisions about an issue of such importance to the future of the economy and the country? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrivacy and data protectionTrade agreements608903560890366089037DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1950)[Translation]Do the data localization provisions make it harder to regulate the sale of data when the data are located in a place where our laws do not apply?Is there a chance that Canada would not be able to regulate the use of Canadian data?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrivacy and data protectionTrade agreements60890386089039-InterventionMr. Patrick Leblond: (1950)[Translation] It's possible. For now, the agreement provides that privacy rules apply to personal data in the private sector. However, if we were to change the rules and further constrain the transfer of data from Canada to the United States, American companies seeking access to the data could invoke the agreement and say that we are engaging in data localisation that's blocking the free flow of data. They might argue that we are free to apply such regulations to Canadian companies, but not to them. That would result in an uneven playing field, which would have a negative impact on the competitiveness of Canadian companies in this sector.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrivacy and data protectionTrade agreements6089040DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1950)[Translation]Thank you.[English]I think that brings us back to some of Mr. Fay's opening remarks with regard to....It just seems to me that sometimes people sign long-term contracts without understanding the future value of what they're signing away. It seems like a good deal now, but in 10, 20, 30 years, you know, if people didn't have the foresight or what they needed in order to be able to understand the value of what they were trading at the time, they can find that they're falling sorely behind. Is that the situation?It seems to me that there's a lot that we don't know about what is still an emerging industry; I think that's fair to say. It seems to me that this agreement is making some pretty serious and far-reaching policy decisions without evidence that we actually know what we're really trading away at this point. Is that a fair assessment that I'm hearing from the panel today? How do you think we might try to have some domestically produced remedies that mitigate against this?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6089041608904260890436089044BobFayBobFayBob-FayInterventionMr. Bob Fay: (1950)[English]I think that there is one thing we do know: More data and more varieties of data are what is necessary. Canadian firms are competing with some multinational giants that already have these enormous data stores, and with the open data flows, we're reinforcing their market position. The question is this: What can we do about that? At CIGI, we're thinking about this.I agree with everything Mr. Leblond said. There are ways to think about this and create our own data stores. There's a very important role for government here, too. Government can play an extremely valuable role in helping to nurture businesses and make data available to businesses. There's a patent collective that's about to be started in one particular sector. So, there are things that can be done. I think that we want to really push hard in these areas right now. As I mentioned, we want to use that six-year review period to help advance things that will be in Canada's interests as well.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60890456089046DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC): (1955)[English]Thank you, Michael.My question is for Mr. Beck and Mr. Waugh over there.Given where we are at with the softwood lumber dispute, can you elaborate further on the negative impacts it will have on the first nations that you represent, as well as for any who are looking to establish new logging rights and start up a new logging company? What is the outlook with regard to that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608905260890536089054MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMikeBeckWaughWilliamWaugh-WilliamInterventionMr. William Waugh: (1955)[English] The direct impact is on log prices. They factor in these costs that the lumber producers are having to pay—the tariffs—and they drive down the prices for domestic logs that are consumed in these mills and first nations are selling to them. A lot of these operations aren't viable because of this—a lot of the wood doesn't get logged; a lot of the wood sits; a lot of the volume still remains standing. As far as new logging operations go, on the coast of British Columbia there is more and more volume and tenure being awarded to the first nations as we speak. Currently, with the way things are economically, it's very difficult to start up a new business in the logging operation. If they reduce the tariffs and duties, hopefully that will increase log prices, and we can get some of these operations going.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089056MikeBeckJeremyPatzerCypress Hills—Grasslands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105559JeremyPatzerJeremy-PatzerCypress Hills—GrasslandsConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PatzerJeremy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jeremy Patzer: (1955)[English]Yes, that's what I had.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089057WaughWilliamMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1955)[English]Okay, thank you.My question is for Mr. Fay and Mr. Leblond.Could you describe a little bit what some of the high-level public policy options are that we have in front of us to regulate digital platforms such as Facebook and Google? How would the new NAFTA agreement limit policy-makers' options?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrivacy and data protectionSocial networking sitesTrade agreements608906160890626089063Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBobFay-InterventionMr. Patrick Leblond: (1955)[English]I can start.This is ongoing thinking, but I've already mentioned this idea that—as was mentioned in the panel review for heritage—if we were to treat social platforms as broadcasters and wanted to regulate their content, for instance, and make them liable for what they publish online, whether it's from news operations or others, then the question is whether that would be challenged by those companies through CUSMA and article 19.17. We would have to see. Of course it would have to be a dispute that would be launched by the U.S. government. There is no investor state in this case; it would not be the companies themselves. In that case, if there was a dispute, then a panel would be set up and would have to decide on these things. It's very difficult at this point to know where that panel would decide.If it were to rule in favour of Facebook or those kinds of social platforms, it would immediately undermine what Canada would be doing. To me, that's problematic in a way. Are we potentially constraining ourselves when it comes to that?We talked about privacy of individuals. Down the line, if we wanted to impose more data localizations, for instance, both at the federal level or even at the provincial.... The Quebec government is talking about moving in that direction. What happens if, for example, Quebec says that it wants to do more data localization—not for government purposes, but for private business? Then U.S.-based companies come and say that they think this goes against the agreement that allows free data flow between our two countries. If we were to challenge this and if a panel was set up and they found, for instance, that those regulations or laws can't apply to U.S. companies, then what happens? It creates an even bigger problem. Quebec could continue doing so, but the federal government would have to pay some form of compensation.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrivacy and data protectionSocial networking sitesTrade agreements6089065608906660890676089068BobFayJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (2000)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to all the presenters, particularly those from beautiful British Columbia.I know that the softwood lumber dispute is a key issue to you fellows. As a committee here in the previous Parliament, we did study this particular issue, when witnesses were able to come in. At every opportunity that I personally found, I talked to the minister about this as well, so we could keep it on the forefront. The minister has always said that she has always been in contact on the other side—the U.S. side—when it comes to this dispute and dispute resolution.Mr. Rielly, you just touched upon the previous chapter 19—now the new chapter 10—and making sure that in every agreement we sign in that regard has to have robust and fair dispute resolution in it.Do you have any comments?Is this chapter 10 going to help companies like yours?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements60890716089072608907360890746089075Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAndyRiellyAndyRiellyAndy-RiellyInterventionMr. Andy Rielly: (2000)[English]Yes. I think it's not just going to help our company. It's essential even for bigger companies like Mr. Kalesnikoff's and the independent companies that are processing things across the country to have something that they can rely on to resolve this. We sometimes just can't count on the big companies to get behind the idea to resolve the issue, or the provincial governments to get the direction, from time to time, from the big companies to do that.In a perfect world, I would suggest that it would be great to have softwood lumber included as one of the items that is going to be in the USMCA. In my experience over the years, having been through this since 1984, that is just not a practical thing to hope for because on the other side of the border you have a large group of people that doesn't want to have this resolved and have a free trade environment. That's always been difficult. That's essentially why I think the dispute resolution system they have in chapter 19 going forward seems to be pretty much intact. That's why I would say that the small and medium-sized independent companies would say the USMCA needs to be ratified, so we can continue that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements60890766089077SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (2000)[English] Thank you.My next question goes to Linamar Corporation. Linda, you mentioned that 70% of your business is in auto parts, and 30% in others, which also includes equipment manufacturing. Does this new agreement, CUSMA, help when it comes to equipment manufacturing, in particular, to the companies you represent?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsManufacturing industryTrade agreements60890786089079AndyRiellyLindaHasenfratzLindaHasenfratzLinda-HasenfratzInterventionMs. Linda Hasenfratz: (2000)[English]We don't see any negative impact from the agreement for either our agricultural harvesting equipment business, headquartered out of Winnipeg, or our access equipment business Skyjack, headquartered here in Guelph. We don't see any downside risks for either one of those businesses.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsManufacturing industryTrade agreements6089082SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (2000)[English]Basically, it's a win-win situation for you in both.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsManufacturing industryTrade agreements6089083LindaHasenfratzLindaHasenfratzLindaHasenfratzLinda-HasenfratzInterventionMs. Linda Hasenfratz: (2000)[English]Yes.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsManufacturing industryTrade agreements6089084SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (2000)[English]I'm going to go to British Columbia, or to both of you if you want to make a comment on chapter 10, which used to be chapter 19.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsTrade agreements6089087Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKenKalesnikoffKenKalesnikoffKen-KalesnikoffInterventionMr. Ken Kalesnikoff: (2000)[English]Sure. I agree with what Andy said. If we don't have that, what do we have? That's the problem. The WTO, for us, seems to have weakened. We need a mechanism. We must have something when these unfair threats are made, some way of challenging them.We're dealing with a massive engine in the U.S., with the softwood lumber coalition there. They have a lot of power. They're not letting up and they're not going to let up, as we all know.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsTrade agreements60890886089089SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): (2005)[English]Thank you, Chair.Chair, before I get started, I just want to thank all of the staff, the support people who have been here these last two weeks, putting all of this together and making sure that we have everything.Some hon. members: Hear, hear!Mr. Randy Hoback: We've always signalled that we're going to vote in favour of this agreement, but we've had lots of concerns about it. One concern was, of course, softwood lumber. The fact that there was a softwood lumber package put together a few years back and that we then found out that a lot of that money didn't flow was concerning. The fact is it's too late now for it to flow. I looked at softwood lumber. In talking to some of the people right across Canada in the sector—I didn't talk to any of you, which is unfortunate, but I will now—I heard that once this is passed, there is a softwood lumber agreement sitting in the background. Have you heard the same thing?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements60890926089093608909460890956089096Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKevinYoungKevinYoungKevin-YoungInterventionMr. Kevin Young: (2005)[English]I'm optimistic that there is, but I'm not confident there is. I think that's also dictated by what's going on in the U.S. political system right now. As much as I would like to think there is something in the background that's being discussed, everyone I've spoken to has not indicated there is.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089097RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (2005)[English]The minister's been putting on a lot of pressure to get this passed, and the premiers have been putting on a lot of pressure. One tool they're using is saying there's softwood lumber sitting in behind this, so get this done and then softwood lumber will be dealt with right away. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what's real and what's not. I'm hoping they're right.Having said that, if there isn't a deal, how do we mitigate what's going on right now? What do we need to do?We want to get a deal. Don't get me wrong. That would be my priority one: Get a deal, solve the tariff issue and go back to business as usual and give some stability. In light of that, what do we do?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608909860890996089100KevinYoungKevinYoungKevinYoungKevin-YoungInterventionMr. Kevin Young: (2005)[English]Well, for Woodtone and companies that are similar to us, I think generally the approach, historically, has been that everybody's in or everybody's out. We've been approaching it from the largest side of the triangle. I think there's an opportunity here.We're at a unique inflection point here in terms of having a vehicle in order to accommodate a fairly small sector of the softwood business. There's a lot of softwood business, there are a lot of softwood products that are outside of the scope. We manufacture some ourselves that are outside of the scope. I think that if we can approach it with some urgency—in our particular case I said this amendment affects a number of companies across Canada—it can provide some certainty.The uncertainty in our business, as everyone here has spoken to, is significant. In our case an amendment could assist in providing some certainty for a number of companies.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608910160891026089103RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (2005)[English]Is there a short-term replacement for the U.S. market?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089104KevinYoungKevinYoungKevinYoungKevin-YoungInterventionMr. Kevin Young: (2005)[English]No.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089105RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (2005)[English]Is there a long-term replacement, with some of the new trade deals such as CETA, the TPP and that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089106KevinYoungKevinYoungKevinYoungKevin-YoungInterventionMr. Kevin Young: (2005)[English]No, not in our case.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089107RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince AlbertKenKalesnikoffKen-KalesnikoffInterventionMr. Ken Kalesnikoff: (2005)[English]Yes, I can comment on that. One thing I am very much afraid of is this new deal. The federal government and the provincial government have both told us to diversify away from the U.S. market, so we have, but now we have no shipments of record importing. If there's a deal made and the U.S. coalition really wants a quota deal, we're screwed.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089109RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince AlbertKenKalesnikoffKen-KalesnikoffInterventionMr. Ken Kalesnikoff: (2005)[English]No, because we were told to diversify, which we did. You're asking about a deal. I'm very puzzled that it would be out there, and I'm not an expert. What happens to us, all of us, including Andy, is that we are kept in the dark most of the time. These deals are made, and when Andy refers to big companies, we're talking about Canfor, West Fraser, Interfor, and Resolute. Those are the companies that are being called and talked to. They very seldom talk to us, which is why I'm here. I'm going to be stranded in Ottawa because I wanted to come to have this opportunity to say that to you. An hon. member: It's a lovely place. Mr. Ken Kalesnikoff: I don't disagree. Apparently we can't go skating because it's slushy, but I don't know how that could happen when it's so cold. Anyway, at the end of the day, somebody needs to start to listen to the small operators across this country. That is not happening, and that is very frustrating when we are the ones who are staying in our communities and are the ones employing people. We're not shutting down, but investing. Our families' sales are $68 million a year. We're investing $35 million. Do you know how we did that? We put our homes on the line, my home and both of our kids' homes. Nobody here knows that, but the policies are being made here, and the people who get to come here are the ones who have big shareholders. We don't. We have ourselves, and if we don't make it, Mama is going to be unhappy. Getting to your question, Randy—I'm sorry, I get passionate—at the end of the day, I have not heard of anything going on. There may be. I'm not walking the halls here, but when I look at it logically, why would there be? The U.S. holds all the cards. The coalition is super strong. They're sitting just waiting. They're just giggling at all this right now.When there's enough money in the piggy bank and we start talking about sharing that piggy bank, then maybe they'll come to the table, and if they lose a couple more.... This last NAFTA challenge that came out, where their duties are going to be reduced potentially.... Without that, what would we have? It would continue. I apologize.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089111608911260891136089114608911560891166089117608911860891196089120RandyHobackPrince AlbertJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekFrancisSchillerFrancis-SchillerInterventionMr. Francis Schiller (Advisor, Woodtone Industries): (2010)[English]If I may just jump in quickly—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreementsWoodtone Industries6089122Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekFrancisSchillerFrancis-SchillerInterventionMr. Francis Schiller: (2010)[English]Just to complement some of the comments you've heard here, I think it's important for committee members to recognize that they have the power right now to make a difference. It's not about a pot of gold at the end of another rainbow. Before you, right now, is the capacity to make the softwood lumber dispute better for a set of producers, and that's within your purview, within your power.Part of Mr. Young's message is that you guys can move with confidence based on past precedent and supported by sound public policy. In the public interest you can make a very surgical amendment that will get more attention in Washington than anything our negotiators can do right now, by leveraging what you have before you to make it better for, not the large primary producers that you have heard have benefited from high prices and sustained demand, but the small and medium-sized enterprises that are investing, employing and extracting maximum value on this side of the border. That's why they are here today. It's to say that you guys can make a difference right now with a very small amendment that will not compromise the NAFTA deal or the USMCA. Rather, it's about how it's going to be implemented, and there are provisions. You can make a small change that will make it better moving forward for a group of producers in this country.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreementsWoodtone Industries6089124608912560891266089127Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (2010)[English] Thank you.I'll be sharing my time with Ms. Bendayan.First I want to thank all of the British Columbia sawmills who are here and elsewhere. I want to let you know that we do take this very seriously. All the mills that are in my riding—I've the most softwood employees per capita in all of British Columbia, I've been told by COFI—are all like you, Mr. Kalesnikoff. They're all independent, they've all put their homes on the line, and as a member of Parliament, I try to meet with them regularly to find out their difficulties.Do you have a say in COFI? You're not a member?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089130608913160891326089133Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKenKalesnikoffKenKalesnikoffKen-KalesnikoffInterventionMr. Ken Kalesnikoff: (2015)[English]No.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089134RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (2015)[English] We listen to everyone on every study—whether you're an independent producer like you, or you're small producer with 10 employees, or with 200 or 2,000, or as Linamar is, with $7 billion in sales and 7,000 employees.When it comes to softwood lumber, we have been fighting. If you recall, the Prime Minister brought this up at his first meeting with President Obama, and the President didn't even know there was a dispute. That's how small it is to them, but how big it is to us. I've been told that this has been talked about at every subsequent meeting between President Trump and our Prime Minister, but you know the politics of how these countervailing duties are put in place. They grind you and they hold you to it. I think the best that Canada can do, unless you have suggestions otherwise, is to go to the places we can to challenge them. We've been successful. I have a steel fabricating company in my riding with 100 employees who fabricate American steel in Canada and then ship it back for building in the U.S. They were slapped with a 7% tariff three weeks ago. We won at the U.S. commerce board. Unfortunately, these are the challenges we have to deal with in this kind of trade environment, but the good thing is that Canada usually is successful at the end of the day, and that's what I'm believing. That's why you've survived in the past, even though your piggy bank got pretty slim at certain times, but we hope we'll be successful again.Mr. Schiller, how do you think we'll be able to amend something very quickly? I don't think it's plausible to put it in this. Maybe what you're asking for is that we push the Americans harder to get an agreement. That might be something, but we will not be able to use this. I don't know how that would be able to be done in a tri-party deal.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements60891356089136608913760891386089139KenKalesnikoffFrancisSchillerFrancisSchillerFrancis-SchillerInterventionMr. Francis Schiller: (2015)[English]I think what's wonderful about the opportunity you have before you is that softwood is in Bill C-4. The reference to softwood offers the opportunity to amend that reference to include, in the case of Mr. Young, an independent study of the finished products that are not intended in the scope of the dispute. So we're not talking—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089142RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (2015)[English]The goal is if the resolution of the dispute is done, then none of the duties that he's paid should be paid. Am I correct? You get it amplified when he gets hit with 20%, and yours, because you value-add, gets higher. The goal is to have none whatsoever, and I think that's what we're trying to achieve.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089143FrancisSchillerFrancisSchillerFrancisSchillerFrancis-SchillerInterventionMr. Francis Schiller: (2015)[English]Indeed, but as legislators you have to be conscious of this asymmetrical impact that has been inflicted on, or varying damage to, the industry. While the large primary producers are enjoying record prices and record sustained demands, the secondary sector in Canada is being negatively impacted. You've heard comments about having to relocate jobs in technology.Right now you have the opportunity to provide for an independent study to reassure the Americans on this very specific sector of volumes, and this could make things better. It wouldn't impact the deal. It would impact the implementation of the deal. That's within the committee's purview.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements60891446089145RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreKenKalesnikoffKenKalesnikoffKen-KalesnikoffInterventionMr. Ken Kalesnikoff: (2015)[English]COFI represents a certain group in B.C.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6089148Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKenKalesnikoffKenKalesnikoffKen-KalesnikoffInterventionMr. Ken Kalesnikoff: (2015)[English]These groups are smaller independents. We're not represented by COFI, but when there's a— ILMA, your Interior Lumber Manufacturers' Association, which I'm the chair of, and Andy is the chair of his, doesn't get called. It's always COFI that gets called, so that has to change as well. What these guys are talking about when it comes to products, the issue is about two-by-fours. This is not about panelling, siding, finished products. That's where it's got to change.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608914960891506089151KenKalesnikoffJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (2015)[English]Sorry, I don't have much time left. I just want to say to Mr. Young and Mr. Schiller that I know you've had meetings with the deputy prime minister's office as recently as today. I hear you at this committee. I think my colleagues opposite also hear you, and so we'll take that back. I'm not sure what is possible by way of amendments to the implementing legislation at this time, but we could certainly look at recommendations and what we can do. So let us take that back. Thank you very much for making the trip to Ottawa and making yourselves heard here today.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6089153Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKevinYoung//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)): (1245)[English] I call to order the Standing Committee on International Trade. We are meeting today, pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, February 6, 2020, on Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican States.Welcome to all the members. I appreciate your finding the time over your lunch-hour to come for this important meeting. The witnesses today from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development are Steve Verheul, the chief negotiator and assistant deputy minister, trade policy and negotiations; and Dr. Marie-France Paquet, chief economist at Global Affairs Canada.Thank you both very much for finding the time to be with us today.I will turn the floor over to both of you for your comments.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608425760842586084259608426060842616084262SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul (Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1245)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll start. First of all, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you again to discuss the economic impact assessment of the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement. I am joined today by Marie-France Paquet, the chief economist at Global Affairs Canada. Before turning the floor over to her to present her assessment, I would like to provide some short remarks.With respect to the context of the negotiations, since its implementation in 1994, the NAFTA has had a positive impact on the Canadian economy and has supported a stable, integrated and competitive North American market.NAFTA has supported the development of an integrated and competitive North American market by providing manufacturers, producers, investors and consumers with a predictable and secure commercial environment. NAFTA has helped to generate economic growth and raise the standard of living for the people of all three member countries.As this committee is aware, the modernization of the NAFTA took place at a difficult time in Canada's bilateral commercial relationship with the United States. When U.S. President Donald Trump took office in January 2017, he sought to replace NAFTA with a new agreement, under the threat of a U.S. withdrawal from NAFTA.The U.S. administration then took the unprecedented step of imposing tariffs on imports of Canadian steel and aluminum on the basis of purported threats to national security, but with absolutely no legitimate justification for those measures. The U.S. administration had also launched a national security investigation that could have led to section 232 tariffs on Canadian autos and auto parts exports to the United States, also under the national security provisions and also without any legitimate justification.Given this overarching context, Canada was presented with two options: first of all, to refuse to negotiate and risk the U.S. withdrawal from NAFTA; or secondly, to enter into negotiations to defend Canadian interests and modernize the agreement. In this context Canada chose to engage in negotiations with the United States and Mexico towards the modernization of NAFTA.I would like to underline that it is important to remember that preserving the status quo was not an option for Canada. The negotiating process was unique. Normally free trade agreement partners are looking to liberalize trade. In this process the U.S. goal from the start of the negotiations was to rebalance the agreement in its favour. The President continued to threaten to withdraw from NAFTA if a satisfactory outcome could not be reached.In the face of this unprecedented situation, Canada undertook broad and extensive engagement with Canadians on objectives for the NAFTA modernization process. Ultimately we were successful in defending Canadian interests against extreme and unconventional U.S. positions.The final CUSMA outcome preserves NAFTA's virtually tariff-free market access for Canadian exports. It modernizes and updates the agreement to support Canada's access to and integration with the North American economy, and it provides important stability and predictability for Canadian businesses and workers.Importantly, and as a condition for moving forward towards implementation of the new agreement, on May 17, 2019, Canada secured the removal of the U.S. section 232 tariffs on aluminum and steel, returning these sectors to duty-free trade and removing a significant barrier to Canada's participation in North American supply chains. In addition, Canada secured an exemption from future U.S. section 232 tariffs on automobiles and auto parts.I would now like to turn to my colleague Marie-France Paquet, chief economist of Global Affairs Canada, who will provide you with more detailed information on her team's economic impact assessment of CUSMA.Thank you very much. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentGovernment billsTrade agreements608426360842646084265608426660842676084268608426960842706084271608427260842736084274608427560842766084277Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet (Chief Economist, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development): (1250)[Translation]Madam Chair, honourable members, thank you for your invitation to appear before the committee today. In my capacity as the chief economist and director general of the trade analysis bureau of Global Affairs Canada, I am pleased to provide a perspective on the potential economic impact of the Canada—United States—Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA, as we know it in Canada.Our role at the Office of the Chief Economist is to assess to the best of our ability the potential impacts of a trade agreement. We report the results of our findings in a document called the “Economic Impact Assessment”.Our internal model is a dynamic computable general equilibrium model with 57 sectors and 140 countries and regions of the world. Such models allow impacts to feed into other sectors of the economy, and for those sectors to adjust over time. We can then evaluate potential impacts on production, exports, imports, and for the first time for a final assessment, the Canadian labour market. However, regardless of the degree of sophistication of our model, it remains a simplification of reality. This means that, unfortunately, we are not in a position to include all the gains from the negotiations in the model.[English] We approach every assessment the same way. We discuss and consult with all relevant parties within government to understand the provisions and determine what can be included in the modelling approach. This time is no exception.The CUSMA negotiations were conducted in a very different context from CETA, the trade agreement with the European Union, and the CPTPP, where the starting point was no agreement and the result was a new free trade agreement.For the task at hand, we had to consider what would happen if the United States were to withdraw from NAFTA, as well as the new agreement called CUSMA. The economic impact assessment is based on the final negotiated text.The modelling results represent the potential benefits of NAFTA preserved by CUSMA, the avoidance of section 232 tariffs on the Canadian steel and aluminum industries, as well as the incremental impact of an implementation of the CUSMA outcomes.CUSMA modernizes the agreement, making it easier for Canadian companies to benefit from NAFTA preferences. CUSMA also preserves NAFTA's virtually tariff-free market access for Canadian exports. It strengthens the integration of the North American automotive sector. It reinforces Canada's relative position as a competitive investment destination for automobile and auto parts production, and provides new market access opportunities in the U.S. market, while at the same time preserving Canada's system of supply management. The new agreement also modernizes provisions in line with Canada's more recent FTAs to help reduce red tape and protect the government's right to regulate in the public interest, including for health and safety.These modernizations would make it easier for Canadian exporters to claim preferential tariff treatment under the agreement. The gains would, however, be partially offset by new market access into Canada's supply-managed sectors and more restrictive rules of origin in the automotive sector.Some provisions under CUSMA would also help reduce policy uncertainty in certain areas such as services, investment and digital trade, and result in a positive impact on businesses. However, modelling such gains is challenging and relies heavily on the assumptions made. Therefore, these types of benefits were not evaluated in this study. Furthermore, many of these obligations have already been implemented by Canada under CETA and by Canada and Mexico under the CPTPP.[Translation]The modelling of quantitative impacts of CUSMA focused on modernized provisions in customs administration, trade facilitation and origin procedures, new market access provisions, automotive rules of origin, and data localisation commitments for financial services. These elements were selected for modelling based on the expected magnitude of their economy-wide impact, data availability and analytical feasibility. (1255)[English]The overall effect of the implementation of CUSMA on the Canadian economy is positive when considered against the consequences of a U.S. withdrawal from NAFTA. The implementation of the CUSMA outcome would secure GDP gains of $6.8 billion or 0.249% of Canadian GDP. With respect to autos, the outcomes are expected to incentivize production in Canada and North America, while leading to the sourcing of more expensive auto parts from within the region.From a labour perspective, CUSMA secures nearly 38,000 jobs that would otherwise be lost if the United States withdrew from NAFTA, of which 18,708 are for men and 18,853 are for women. In conclusion, the analytical findings resulting from the economic modelling suggest that the agreement's economic impact on the Canadian economy is positive when compared with the effects of an American withdrawal from NAFTA and the imposition of section 232 tariffs on Canada's steel and aluminum sectors. Importantly, CUSMA preserves Canada's access to the U.S. and Mexican markets and protects Canadian economic gains, jobs and income that would otherwise have been lost.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Foreign Affairs, Trade and DevelopmentEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements608427860842796084280608428160842826084283608428460842856084286608428760842886084289608429060842916084292SteveVerheulJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): (1255)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you for bringing this forward. You know, I'm very disappointed; I asked for a chance to have a look at this last night so that I could at least consider it overnight. To have it dropped on us five minutes before the committee meeting is totally disrespectful of the opposition role that we have to play. I will make that protest loudly, right now. There is no reason this couldn't have been given to us last night.When was this completed? When was this done and on your desk? I will be making an ATI request on that, just so you know.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements608429660842976084298Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1255)[English]We finished the English version yesterday at around 5 p.m. or 6 p.m.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084299RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1255)[English]So there's no reason it couldn't have been given to me last night.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084300Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1255)[English]I have to provide it in English and French. That's what took us a bit of extra time. We had 14 translators working on it yesterday to be able to provide it today.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084301RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1255)[English]I could have gotten it at two in the morning and would have read it. This is a big deal. This is $2 billion a day.When were you empowered to take on this study? When were you told, “Okay, we have to do the study”?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60843026084303Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1255)[English]I was not told to do the study. We always do a study. As you probably know, there's no legislative requirement to do so or to provide it, but we do it. We embarked on conducting the study at the conclusion of the agreement. As I said, we do this by having discussions with the negotiating team at Global Affairs and other relevant government departments to make sure we understand the provisions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements60843046084305RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1255)[English]Okay, but the negotiations were basically done last April. In fact, if you compare it with the TPP, we had the analysis on February 16, 2018, and then we approved it on June 14, 2018. This government wants us to look at it for five minutes and go and give them a blank statement. We are going to approve it. We are. We recognize the harm if we don't approve it. We get that. But your comparison is with something not being approved—that is, if the U.S. pulled out. I was looking for a comparison with the old agreement and the gains in the new agreement. I was looking for the industries and sectors that would be negatively impacted so that we could have a proper game plan for them. The question was never whether the U.S. pulled out. That's never been the question. So why would you do an analysis against something that will never happen? Why wouldn't you compare it with the existing agreement and where we're going with the new agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60843066084307Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1255)[English]Because we strongly believe the status quo with NAFTA was not an option. Therefore, it was either going to be no NAFTA—Mr. Randy Hoback: No, that's wrong—Ms. Marie-France Paquet: —with the imposition on tariffs that were actually present at the time, to something different, which is CUSMA.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements608430860843096084310RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1255)[English]Again, in making decisions while sitting around a board table, I would have gone back to my senior management team and said this was unacceptable. Plus, for us to make a proper decision, we have to compare it with what we know, and what we know today. You cannot guess what the U.S. may or may not do. You don't know that. You're assuming that. It's a strong assumption. Maybe it's a safe one, but it's a strong assumption. You know what you have today. You know what you have in the new agreement. You do an analysis to compare the two. In the new agreement, we gained how many jobs? Well, you can't do that. You're comparing it with no agreement. In the new agreement, how much is added to our economic activity? I don't have that here. In the new agreement, how much is gained in the environmental chapter? Again, you're comparing it with nothing. If I look at the C.D. Howe report, it's a $10-billion hit. It has negative effect on GDP. If I compare it with the TPP, if we'd done TPP instead of NAFTA, it's a $4-billion gain for Canada with the U.S. involved in TPP. So I look at this and say, “How do I take this information and actually give it an accurate assessment?" I can't. You didn't give me the right starting point. I go to the government....We haven't played games here. We've said that we're going to pass it. We're going to move forward. But we need the information to do that properly. You haven't provided that. You haven't provided yourself with the information. That's really scary, because it's $2 billion a day. Yes, we're going to approve it. I guess, comparing it with nothing, we know that this is still a better way, but we've done nothing for the sectors that are left out. You haven't even identified them in your report. I'm wondering how I go to the Liberals now and say, “You need to be accountable to help the forestry workers. You need to be accountable to help the dairy workers. You need to be accountable to help the aluminum workers.” I have nothing to do that on, based off this report.I don't mean to be hard on you, and I apologize. I know that you have your starting points and stuff like that. I'm sure there's a good political reason why you did it the way you did. I realize that you probably didn't make that decision—the gods above you did—so don't take that wrong. The reality is that if we don't have good data, how do we make good decisions? The reality is that right now we can't make a good decision based on this data. Which report do I go with? Is C.D. Howe more accurate or is the U.S. data more accurate? If you compare those with this here...wow.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084311608431260843136084314Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1300)[English] I can speak with regard to the C.D. Howe and the USITC reports if time allows.In the USITC reports, if you look carefully, there are probably three numbers, so three different scenarios. If there is no policy uncertainty reduction in the model, they have a negative for the U.S. economy of $22 billion. If there there is some reduction in policy uncertainty done in a certain way—and we can discuss that for a long time—then there would be a benefit for the U.S. economy of $68 billion. If there is a lot of reduction in policy uncertainty, you get $235 billion—I think that's the number.C.D. Howe did not do any policy uncertainty, and we did not either. We know that it is good for business if we reduce uncertainty, but it's very hard to model.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements608431560843166084317RandyHobackPrince AlbertJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1300)[English]Thank you very much for appearing today.I would note that in Mr. Verheul's opening comments he mentioned that Canada was presented with, I believe he said, two options. One of those options was the withdrawal from NAFTA, and the other one was the renegotiation, which resulted in what we now know as CUSMA.We know that the impact of a U.S. withdrawal from NAFTA would have been substantial, and we know that U.S. tariffs were a reality. I know that my colleagues have often made reference to other private-sector studies, but I would like to point to something that the RBC said: “A 4% across-the-board increase in tariffs between Canada and the U.S.—roughly equivalent [to] a reversion from NAFTA to WTO tariff rates—could reduce Canadian GDP growth by about 1% over 5 to 10 years”.Your analysis in your report indicates a few qualitative and quantitative gaps, and that you weren't able to fully quantify investment-climate factors. That said, you do indicate the importance of this agreement, and I was wondering if you could speak a little more about how these factors would have impacted our Canadian economy.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsGross domestic productTrade agreements6084320608432160843226084323Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1300)[English]If you look at the RBC study you're referring to and other studies by mostly banks, they would all point to an about 1% reduction in GDP should the U.S. withdraw from NAFTA. They are pretty much consistent.The reason is simple. These are macroeconomic models, and they don't allow for what I explained at the very beginning. They don't have a lot of sectors in them. They might have two or three. They're very aggregate. They don't have the tariff changes in there. They impose a shock, and then you get a 1 percentage point reduction in GDP.When you do it with a CGE model, the type of model we assess, you have 57 sectors, so when you make changes in tariffs, for example, then the sectors can adapt and workers that are having a harder time in that sector can move to another one. There is adaptation across sectors and over time.Any studies by the banks that use macroeconomic models don't provide for that. They will point to very different results. So that's one thing.In terms of the policy uncertainty and investments, there are certain things that we would have loved to take into account in the model because we do agree that a reduction in uncertainty is a good thing for business. That is partly why we took so much time; we re-did all the analysis a few weeks ago to try to do it the way the USITC has done it and see what it would provide for Canada.That was very difficult to do. We didn't have the model or the data ex ante before putting it in the bigger model. We even tried to take USITC's coefficient. We thought, “The USITC does good work. We'll take its coefficient and put it in our model and see that we get.” We got results that did not make sense. We had an impact on Mexico that was much bigger than for Canada and the U.S.So, there are other interventions done in the USITC report that I cannot explain just by looking at it. Even though it's 359 pages, I cannot tell you exactly what other interventions they might have made in the model.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsGross domestic productPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084324608432560843266084327608432860843296084330RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1305)[English]I'll turn for a moment to the impact on job numbers and GDP, which were described as being protected by the agreement. I refer to the Bank of Canada governor, Stephen Poloz, who said that the threat of a U.S. withdrawal could lead to a chill in investment that would then be compounded, obviously, by additional tariffs possibly levelled against Canada by the United States.Given that a U.S. withdrawal from the agreement was a real possibility at the outset of the negotiations, my question is for both Madame Paquet and Mr. Verheul.How would you characterize the potential spillover effects of U.S. withdrawal on Canadian investment and Canadian jobs in particular?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGross domestic productJob securityTrade agreements608433160843326084333Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1305)[English] In terms of investment, that's a very interesting question because if you look at the foreign direct investment flows into Canada and you go back to, say, 2017 and 2018—we'll have the data for 2019 shortly—we had minimal flows into Canada in 2017. It looked as if we might have said that we knew what was going on: the climate was not that great, but we had two major divestitures in the oil sector. Two Canadian companies were buying back U.S. companies, so it looked like an outflow of funds, when in fact it was a good-news story. So 2017 was a slower year on the whole for attracting FDI for that particular reason. Then 2018 was pretty good. As a proportion of GDP, we attract a lot of FDI. From that perspective we're doing quite well. There might have been less investment during the negotiations and whatnot by businesses located in Canada, but on the whole we still saw good flows of FDI.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGross domestic productJob securityPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements60843346084335RachelBendayanOutremontJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): (1305)[Translation]Thank you for joining us to answer our questions.I agree with my colleague in saying that it would have been good to receive these studies a bit earlier. We could have asked our questions based on more than a reading we just did. We understand that you have constraints when it comes to that. You could not have given yourself that mandate; it should have been given to you.As you probably know, my political party, the Bloc Québécois, has raised a lot of concerns about the aluminum sector. Our initial concern was that this carbon-neutral aluminum, which is on the verge of making us proud and is at the centre of our innovation, would be threatened by Chinese dumping, through Mexico, of pollutant aluminum that is produced using coal most of the time, thereby threatening the expansion of several aluminum plants. Studies have also been done on this issue.Unions shared our concerns. The industry did not share them as much, but it recognized that protection was not the same for aluminum as for steel. The government swore to us that there was no reason for concern.However, this morning, an agreement was reached between the Bloc Québécois and the Government of Canada. I assume your study did not take that into account, as you conducted it before this morning's announcement. It was agreed that, without needing to reopen the agreement, monitoring of aluminum imports from Asia must be increased and that, if it was concluded that dumping was being done, the same protection given to steel would be given to the aluminum sector, with the same time frames the steel sector is benefiting from—seven years.That solution was welcomed by unions. The fact that the government brought attention to our proposal indicates that our concerns were not completely crazy. Moreover, the fact that Mexico is now so angry indicates that there was probably an issue there.I know that you have not had an in-depth look at that, but given this change, how do you view the impacts?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6084338608433960843406084341608434260843436084344Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1305)[Translation]Thank you for the question.Yes, receiving such an important document at the last minute is not ideal.Concerning your question, it is unfortunate, but for steel and aluminum, we used as a benchmark no NAFTA, with tariffs from section 232. Tariffs existed, and that is why we have put them into the benchmark.Before this morning's agreement, the negotiated and final text talked about a seven-year implementation. On the one hand, for various reasons, we were lacking specific data to put it in the model as built. On the other hand, we modelled the agreement in 2020—it was starting in 2020—and the impacts for 2025.Normally, we go much further in projections. As there are many tariff changes, we want to give the sector an opportunity to adapt. Here, there are not many tariff changes, and we have decided to model the agreement up to five years. The agreement that was in the negotiated text goes beyond that. Even if I had that data, in this case, it would not have been taken into consideration. Data is lacking anyway.As for this morning's agreement, I will let Mr. Verheul add something. As you said, we were not able to take that into consideration either.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements608434560843466084347608434860843496084350Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1310)[English] I have a couple of comments. The issue of aluminum has attracted a lot of attention. We are certainly concerned about how things might develop as they go on. Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements60843526084353Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1310)[English]Thanks. We've had a number of discussions on the aluminum issue, and I think you're certainly aware that we do intend to closely monitor the amounts of aluminum coming into North America, in particular to Mexico. If we do see significant quantities coming in, then we are prepared to take action. I noticed a quote from the chief negotiator for Mexico saying that they thought that, because of the greater tightness of the rules of origin—it's now 75% North American content overall and then the 70% requirement for aluminum—they felt they would have to source from North American sources, which would amount to Quebec.We're hopeful that Mexico and all the manufacturers in North America will be sourcing aluminum from Canada and from Quebec. If that's not the case, and we find that there is some deviation from that, we are prepared to take that case to our trading partners. Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6084358608435960843606084361Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): (1310)[English]Thank you. I think it is important to start with an expression of some serious frustration that we didn't get this document earlier, not just earlier than this meeting to allow us to prepare for this meeting, but earlier in the process generally. That is why the NDP undertook to negotiate with the government to change the policy to ensure that, going forward, economic impact assessments are tabled coincident with ratifying legislation to give parliamentarians time to absorb this information. Then we'd be able to ask better questions and get some clarity on negotiation objectives and whom we're actually negotiating with, because sometimes that hasn't always been clear. I think those changes will serve parliamentarians well, but also members of civil society and Canadians who watch the trade file closely. That said, I'm perplexed at the amount of time it took to prepare this document. Here I think of the U.S. having produced, not just a much longer document, but also, as we heard today, a document with a level of analysis we weren't able to duplicate here in Canada. I just heard that today. It's disappointing, I would say, because it's not as if the U.S. report was just tabled this afternoon. It goes back to April 2019. We knew what kind of analysis the Americans were undertaking. We had a signed agreement. Now it's changed. Democrats in the United States were able to succeed in making some improvements. Am I to understand that Global Affairs hadn't begun work on a number of the...? I ask because there's a lot in the agreement that's the same between the two versions, the one that preceded the December agreement of last year and the December agreement itself. If most of the agreement is the same, and it is, then how is it that we could get to December—never mind December but February 2020—and not have most of that economic analysis complete?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084364608436560843666084367Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1315)[English]Thank you very much. In terms of the USITC, you're right: they issued their report around Easter weekend in April. On our part, we started the same thing, talking to the relevant government departments. I think the first department we had a lot of discussions with was the industry department to talk about the rules of origin in the automotive sector. That alone took us quite a bit of time, I can tell you. We did not start a month ago, that's for sure. We started a long time ago.You are right that changes were implemented in December. We had a few discussions after that to ask if it changed anything. There are changes, and then the question is whether we can take them into account. For example, on IT, it's same thing. We're not able to take that into account in the model. You're right. We still had to look at it. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements608436860843696084370DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1315)[English] I have a further question, if you don't mind.As negotiations proceeded, we certainly saw that things were changing after the signing of the first agreement, but even during the negotiation of the original agreement itself, it seems to me, looking at from the outside, that the negotiators aren't asking the economists in government to prepare any economic analysis while the negotiations are happening. So our negotiators don't have economic impact assessment data and analysis at their fingertips when they're deciding what they're going to agree to or not, on behalf of Canadians.That seems incredible to me.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsNegotiations and negotiatorsTrade agreements608437160843726084373Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1315)[English]That's how it looks from the outside. I can appreciate that, but I've got the chief negotiator right here. He can tell you whether or he has found us to have been supportive or not, and I've had direct, let's say, requests from the deputy minister at the time about the rules of origin playing out like this or like that, or different things, and sometimes the emails or questions come in a bit of a cryptic way. Not to reveal too much on the negotiation side, but we've had discussions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsNegotiations and negotiatorsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084374DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1315)[English] I'm glad to hear that there is some of that back and forth, but I am curious how that doesn't provide a sufficient basis for an economic impact study if that analysis is already being done as we evaluate items at the table and decide whether to agree or not. How is it not possible to collate a lot of that information into a kind of interim economic analysis or some kind of preliminary document that would help people here and across the country start the work of trying to understand what I'm glad to hear negotiators do already understand? You wouldn't know it by the quantity of information coming out of government. That's where I'm perplexed. It's not just in the case of Canada-U.S. We know that our European trading partners do an economic analysis at the outset before they start negotiation about possible scenarios.It's concerning to me that Canada doesn't appear to do that work, and if the work is being done, I don't understand why it's not possible to produce at least a version of something that could be released publicly to start providing some of that food for thought and to inform some of the discussions that happen, whether they're on the aluminum sector or on softwood lumber—you name the sector that's going to be affected. If the information is already there—and I hope it is and I'm hearing it is—I don't see why it isn't possible to release more information earlier on.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements608437560843766084377Marie-FrancePaquetJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC): (1315)[English]Thank you for being here, Madame Paquet. I'm upset and frustrated today, but not upset at you, if I come across a little upset.In response the question by my colleague on what date you started working on this assessment, you implied to Mr. Blaikie that it's been going on for a long time. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements608437960843806084381Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1315)[English]Honestly, I don't know the date, but I took office in September 2017, and—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084382ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1315)[English]It was ongoing then?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084383Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1315)[English]Yes, we were working on this.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084384ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1315)[English]That's all I need. So it was there, and as Mr. Blaikie states, nobody around the table believes that the Prime Minister and the minister would sign on to an agreement without having some facts in front of them. You mentioned that this is a process you go through. Nobody politically says you need to do it; it's just something you do. I want to look at your record and what you did in the past. The TPP was signed on February 4, 2016. You made the economic impact analysis of that available on March 16, so it was within a month. The CPTPP was signed on March 8, 2018. You had the economic analysis of that released on February 16, 2018, a month beforehand. We're stumped because my colleague Mr. Hoback was asking the government way back in the spring to do a prestudy on it. By your own historic numbers, even if you take the date that we asked for this in December—but we didn't just ask for the full study, we just wanted advice and documents, perhaps the advice to the minister—we got nothing until literally 20 minutes before you're here. We were told by the Prime Minister and the minister before the election, which was.... Okay, they knew what was going on here because the agreement for CUSMA was signed on November 30, 2018. So I would have thought with your bureaucratic processes, you would have had a really good idea within a month or two of what this meant for Canadians, and yet it wasn't released by the government. I wonder why this was held from Canadians before the election. Do you have any idea why?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60843856084386608438760843886084389Marie-FrancePaquetSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1320)[English] Let me respond to a bit of this. I think in every free trade negotiation that we do, we do an economic analysis prior to starting the negotiation. We've done that in this case as well.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60843906084391ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1320)[English]Absolutely. Mr. Verheul, I only have five minutes here. With this timeline I am outraged, okay, because in the past, historically, the Canadian government has done a good job of getting these documents out to Canadians. We had the C.D. Howe report. Again, I disagree with the premise of your analysis here. The C.D. Howe report said this is going to be a $10-billion hit compared with what we had before, which is $14 billion Canadian. It works out to about $1,500 per family. We know that when this government started, there was an agreement in place. Here, I applaud Mr. Verheul. I think he's a genius as far as negotiations are concerned. The original TPP would have had a positive impact, $4.3 billion. Our Prime Minister decided not to sign it because it wasn't progressive enough. It was 14 months before Mr. Trump was even in office, and now we're being asked to rush this through, which is important. Even C.D. Howe said that if we didn't do this deal, it would be a hit to us even worse than this. I think they said $14 billion U.S., or something along those lines.My comment is, why didn't we know? If this was signed in November 2018, we could quote the Prime Minister saying it's a win-win-win. It's a victory for Canadians. It's a better deal. They knew.You didn't just start this analysis in December when we asked for it, so was there any direction to you not to provide documents to this committee?Madame Paquet.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60843926084393608439460843956084396SteveVerheulMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1320)[English]Thank you very much.The difficulty in releasing, let's say, a teaser or advance notice on the numbers is that when you change one thing, it changes everything, because it's such a big model. That's why it is so difficult. When I said recently we decided to revisit the policy reduction uncertainty, if we had decided to put it in the final study, it would have changed the numbers completely.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements60843976084398ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1320)[English] I have 15 seconds. Like I said, if were able to do that with the TPP, if you were able to make it available a month ahead with the CPTPP—and in this case, CUSMA was signed on November 30, 2018—nobody believes that you could not have given any documentation to this committee. Nobody believes that for one minute. We're wondering why not. Why was this not provided to us before the election? I'm going to have to leave it at that. That's the best I can do today. I do appreciate your being here. I want you to know that I'm not upset at you, because I know you do a good job. I'm not upset at Mr. Verheul because he has done an amazing job—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements608439960844006084401Marie-FrancePaquetJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): (1320)[English]Thank you very much.I want to thank you for your good work and to underline and highlight your impartiality as bureaucrats, as opposed to being in a political arena. We are certainly sitting in a political arena now, I would note for the people who might be watching.I note that during the negotiations, the C.D. Howe Institute, which has been referenced by my friends across the way, released a report stating that a potential U.S. withdrawal from NAFTA could cause Canadian auto industry exports to decline by $5.2 billion. Your researcher notes that you were not able to fully assess the auto sector, including the potential imposition of the section 232 tariffs. TD Bank notes, though, that up to one in five Ontario manufacturing jobs could have been at risk, plus additional supply chain impacts. You know I'm from the steel industry in the Sault. Madame Paquet and Monsieur Verheul, how would characterize the potential impact on the auto sector, one, if the U.S. withdrew from the agreement, and, two, if the U.S. imposed tariffs on the auto sector?Automotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6084404608440560844066084407Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1325)[English]Thank you very much.The impact on the automotive industry would have been really bad. It would have been hit very hard, of course, as you know, without any number.... In terms of the number of jobs—and I stand to be corrected—I think it's about one-third of the 38,000 jobs that would have been...in the industrial sectors. Then from that you have the auto sector. A big chunk of what we've been able to preserve would have been in the automotive sector. From that perspective, of course, it's hugely beneficial.Automotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements60844086084409TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1325)[English]In my community of Sault Ste. Marie, the direct impact of the section 232 tariffs on steel was felt extremely hard. The situation faced in the negotiations was dire at times, and we felt the impact right at home. I've referenced that before. Not only was a U.S. withdrawal a real possibility, but the punitive tariffs on key sectors were felt in my backyard.Are there some regions of the country that would have been the hardest hit by a U.S. withdrawal from the agreement, in your opinion?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements60844106084411Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1325)[English] We don't have a regional model. It's not a provincial or regional model; it's Canada as a whole, so I cannot tell you the impact on this province or that province out of the numbers we can provide. For that, you would need to model every province as a country with the internal trade challenges and then sum it up. We don't do that, of course, but being in Canada, we know that some of the sectors are located in an aggregate way, if you will. It's not perfectly circumscribed, but that's what it is. The best we can do is to extrapolate from the numbers in one sector, and some of the sectors are spread out across the country, whereas others are more concentrated. In the automotive sector, we say, “That's the hardest hit,” and you know where it hits at home, right?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements608441260844136084414TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1325)[English]Very good, so there are about 123,000 direct and indirect steel jobs. In Ontario, there's Hamilton and Sault Ste.-Marie, but you are right—there are a number of small and medium-sized businesses across the way. Of course, I know that aluminum factors very prominently in Quebec, but we heard testimony from some people in the aluminum business down in Windsor. I appreciate that effort. On behalf of the steelworkers, thank you to both of you for standing up for Canada.Automotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements60844156084416Marie-FrancePaquetJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis (Essex, CPC): (1325)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I won't go into my disappointment because my colleagues have done a very good job at that, but you need to know, just like Mr. Carrie said.... I don't know if I'm disappointed or if I'm kind of blown away, because I've been part of a lot of trade deals, a lot of business deals over my time. Never have I ever come out of a business deal and said, “I think this is a great deal, but I don't really know how it's going to hit my pocketbook.” Never. It really makes absolutely no sense to me at all.I believe you mentioned that you actually did have an impact statement done before this trade deal was done. Did I hear that correctly, Mr. Verheul?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084419608442060844216084422Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1325)[English]Yes, we usually do some kind of analysis beforehand to project the potential gains or losses that could occur.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084423ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1325)[English]Thank you, and where is that paperwork?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084424SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1325)[English]In this particular case, given that it wasn't a new free trade agreement, what we did assess was the impact of the potential loss of NAFTA, which is what we were facing at the time. That was announced as it was completed.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084425ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1325)[English]So where is that paperwork?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084426SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1325)[English]We can certainly check on being able to provide that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084427ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1325)[English]I think this committee deserves that paperwork, at the very least.Would it be fair to say that the only way that you could make the numbers look good in this economic impact analysis statement would be to compare CUSMA to having no deal at all? I'm trying to get through my brain what you're comparing this with, but I have to assume it's all about the numbers and making them look good. Is that a fair statement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608442860844296084430SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1330)[English]No, it's not, because we were comparing the reality we faced at the time, and that reality was the elimination of NAFTA and the imposition of tariffs on steel and aluminum, which happened. We were under threat that if we did not negotiate, NAFTA would be eliminated; the U.S. would withdraw. That was the reality of that path if we had not negotiated.Instead, we chose to negotiate, and we ended up with the agreement that we have in front of us. The only relevant comparison, from our perspective, is between those two paths that lay in front of us. If we had not negotiated, that would be the world we'd live in—no NAFTA, tariffs on steel and aluminum, and most likely, tariffs on autos and auto parts.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60844316084432ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1330)[English]Thank you. For everyone, this is the U.S.-Mexico-Canada trade agreement, and this here is the economic impact assessment text that what we got today. This has been done since April 2019, and this text here is what we got 20 minutes before we arrived. I believe somebody is hiding something. I have to believe that.The last point I'll make is that though I don't much agree with what the Prime Minister does on a lot of different things, I have to agree that there's enough intelligence there that he did have some kind of a statement in his hands to know if it was a good deal for Canada before November 30, 2018. God help us if he didn't.Thank you, Madam Chair.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084433608443460844356084436SteveVerheulJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1330)[English]Mr. Verheul, your position as chief negotiator meant that you were not only on the front lines negotiating with the United States and Mexico, but also on the front lines here in Canada in discussions with industry leaders, businesses, chambers of commerce and numerous stakeholders, some of whom have come before the committee and told us the benefits of CUSMA for their industries and businesses. I wonder if what you heard on the ground here in Canada from industry is consistent with the chief economist's report and the information you see in the report today.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6084438Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1330)[English] Obviously, we haven't received specific numbers from industry, but based on what they've been telling us across the various sectors that are most affected by the outcomes, certainly the results are very comparable to what we've encountered here.I would like to clarify that, as I mentioned, we do an analysis before any negotiation. On the notion of doing macroeconomic quantitative analysis during a negotiation in the expectation that people would have that as input into a negotiation, that doesn't happen. No country in the world does that. No negotiating team in any part of the world does that kind of analysis to inform themselves.We had a team of over 150 people working on this negotiation. They were largely economists. They know their issues. We spoke intensively with the sectors that were involved. That's where we got our information, along with our own analysis and expertise. But on the notion of constructing and following a quantitative model to guide us in the negotiation, no one does that. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements608443960844406084441RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1330)[English]Given, as we saw in reality, the changes that were put forward by other member countries in December, in your view, would it have been somehow detrimental to our national interests and our negotiating position to start releasing information before the United States and Mexico ratified the agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084442SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1330)[English]That was the position that we took early on. We knew there was discontent within the U.S., particularly in the House where that they did not agree with elements of what the U.S. had negotiated and there were discussions actively taking place.Mexico ratified it very quickly. The U.S. ratified it fairly quickly as well, but we knew there was still a negotiation going on. We had several issues that were of significant importance to us in that negotiation, particularly the issue of the date of the term for biologic drugs, which would have had a significant impact on us; the issue of getting dispute settlement processes that would actually work as a part of that as well; and provisions on labour and the environment. The negotiation was not done, so we saw little point in conducting a full economic analysis until the negotiations were actually completed.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60844436084444RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1335)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Unfortunately, we were short on time. Mr. Verheul, I propose that you continue where we left off. You were telling me that there would be monitoring and a way to correct things in case of problems. Is that right?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsOversight mechanismTrade agreements60844476084448Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1335)[English]Yes. Clearly if we do see imports of aluminum coming in in greater quantities than we've seen in the past, then we will be going to our trading partners to look for a resolution of that.I'd also just mention that the U.S. still has its process under the section 232 actions under both steel and aluminum that if there are surges in either steel or aluminum imports, they do have, in their legislation at least, the right to impose penalties again, or reimpose those tariffs. So they are also monitoring imports of aluminum into Mexico.We have a number of avenues we can pursue here and we are talking quite closely, in particular, with the U.S. about this issue.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsOversight mechanismTrade agreements608444960844506084451Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1335)[Translation]Do you see the agreement between the government and the Bloc Québécois as progress?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6084452SteveVerheulSteveVerheul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1335)[Translation]I'm talking about the agreement announced this morning between the Bloc Québécois and the Government of Canada to ensure the monitoring and apply the same conditions to the aluminum sector as those applied to the steel sector if there was an issue. Do you consider that to be a step in the right direction and a success?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6084454SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1335)[English]Yes, I think that's exactly the right way to go. In our discussions with the U.S. as well.... The U.S. has set aside new funding to monitor aluminum imports into North America internally, so there's the notion of our monitoring what is happening on the aluminum front. If we start to see that aluminum is being brought into North America from China or other countries and undercutting Canadian sources, then we will be making proposals to the U.S. and Mexico to have aluminum treated on the same basis as steel.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6084455Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1335)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I apologize for being unable to ask more targeted questions.I am interested in the difference between the findings of your studies and those of C.D. Howe Institute.Can you explain to us the difference between the methodologies or data used, which lead to two fairly different conclusions?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084458608445960844606084461Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1335)[Translation]Thank you.The study that was just published by C.D. Howe Institute presents certain hypotheses, on which we completely disagree. Two of those hypotheses have to do with rules of origin, one of which concerns chemical products.[English]Their interpretation of the study is that the new agreement makes it more restrictive, and the negotiators tell me that when you look at the provisions carefully, they do not. It is a big sector so it has a big negative impact. We don't agree with that. We think it's a mistake.On the rules of origin in the automotive sector, what they have done is to say that we're going to increase the sourcing of the parts in North America until you meet the threshold of the content, regardless of the tariff, the MFN tariff, which you could decide to pay instead, so again, I do not think this is credible. Businesses are rational. They do want to maximize their profits and minimize their costs. The way we have done it—and the USITC has decided to do it as well—is to say that we are going to increase sourcing from North America, yes, up to a point where it might be easier just to pay the 2.5% in one direction and 6.1% in the other direction. We think this is more realistic.Those are the two good examples that make it more restrictive in the C.D. Howe study, and that's why they have a bigger impact. Rules of origin in the automotive sector are a big driver of the results. We think those two.... There are other little things here and there, but those are the main ones that I would say we do not agree on.Mr. Daniel Blaikie: Thank you. I look forward to the opportunity to take—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements608446260844636084464608446560844666084467DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram (Regina—Wascana, CPC): (1340)[English]Thank you. I only have two minutes. The document you've produced is an economic impact assessment comparing the complete elimination of the old NAFTA versus the new CUSMA that we have now. Could you do an economic impact assessment comparing the new CUSMA to Canada's just staying with the old NAFTA in a business as usual scenario?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60844706084471Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1340)[English]Effectively speaking, it's something that's possible to do, but this is not the situation we were facing, so that's why we decided to present the results this way.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084472MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1340)[English]No, I appreciate that, but could you produce the document and provide it to the committee so that at least the Senate committee could study the matter before ratifying the final deal?An hon. member: That's a good question.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60844736084474Marie-FrancePaquetRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1340)[English]Your forecasts are there. You just have to take the current data and apply it.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084475MichaelKramRegina—WascanaSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1340)[English]We do not see a lot of sense in doing that. There was—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084476RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1340)[English]I see a lot of sense in doing it. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084477SteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteveVerheulSteve-VerheulInterventionMr. Steve Verheul: (1340)[English]You may, but there was no possibility for us to continue with the existing NAFTA, so a comparison between something that was not a possibility compared with something that we did end up doing is the relevant comparison.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60844786084479RandyHobackPrince AlbertJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1340)[English]Okay, but it could be done, and it could be provided if you were directed to do so. Is that fair?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084481Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1340)[English]It depends on the timelines.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084482MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1340)[English]Would it take a day, a week or a month?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084483Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1340)[English]Not a month for sure, but you need to change all the models, and that takes time. The model has—you won't believe me—140,000 equations in it, with 280 variables and it takes hours to run.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084484MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1340)[English]Were you directed by the Prime Minister's Office or Minister Freeland's office to do the assessment the way you did it and not to compare it with the old NAFTA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6084485Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1340)[English]This was my initial proposal.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084486MichaelKramRegina—WascanaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai (Surrey Centre, Lib.): (1340)[English]Thank you. I'll be quick because I have two minutes.First of all, have you been able to compare how much domestic gain might happen with...? For example, we'll be importing less from Mexico based on your report. Would that mean that domestic producers of certain things would gain from that? Has that been calculated? Or can we calculate that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian companiesEconomic impactGovernment billsImportsTrade agreements60844896084490Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1340)[English]If you think about exports and imports, we do have the tables in the documents. If you look at tables 4 and 5, you would see the impacts by sectors.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian companiesEconomic impactGovernment billsImportsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084491RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1340)[English]Would you see a domestic gain in a sector that doesn't have to import something? They would gain from sourcing it here. If we're importing $4 billion less in something from Mexico, presumptively we're getting that good from somewhere else. Could it be that we're getting it domestically because of the price difference due to this new negotiation?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian companiesEconomic impactGovernment billsImportsTrade agreements6084492Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1340)[English] It is possible, but you need to look at it carefully. If you have a hunch in a sector and you look.... There's a lot of intra-trade industry. In the same sector we export and we import, because it's the subsectors that vary. We have 57 sectors and there are a lot of subsectors in there. I think you're right but I would need to look carefully, and to do that you pick a sector in which you think that might be the case, and you go deep down. You look at production and you look at the exports and imports pattern and how it changes.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian companiesEconomic impactGovernment billsImportsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements60844936084494RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1340)[English]My second question is for the automotive sector. Would it be possible for you to into what vehicle part could have more production in Canada, for which the government could give assistance to increase Canadian sourcing so we could actually get a gain in that and accomplish the goal?What sector, or what parts of a car, could Canada invest in and increase our domestic production of and thus increase our NAFTA trading zone?Automotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCountry of originGovernment billsTrade agreements60844956084496Marie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-FrancePaquetMarie-France-PaquetInterventionMs. Marie-France Paquet: (1340)[English]It's basically the same thing. I do not have that information with me and I don't have it explicitly laid out in the study. For that, you need to look at the HS code in a very detailed fashion. Then you can consider it. I do not have that answer right now. Automotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCountry of originGovernment billsPaquet, Marie-FranceTrade agreements6084497RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)): (1530)[English] I am calling the meeting to order of the Standing Committee on International Trade. Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, February 6, 2020, we are studying Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican States.Welcome to our fourth session.The witnesses with us this afternoon for this panel are, from Dajcor Aluminum, Mike Kilby, president and chief executive officer, by video conference from Chatham, Ontario.From KTG Public Affairs, we have Brian Topp.From Syndicat National des Employés de l'Aluminium d'Arvida Unifor-Local 1937, we have Donat Pearson, president, and Éric Gilbert, vice-president.Monsieur Pearson, I will turn the floor over to you. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6082834608283560828366082837608283860828396082840DonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson (President, Syndicat National des Employés de l'Aluminium d'Arvida Unifor - Local 1937): (1530)[Translation]Good afternoon, everyone.The Syndicat national des employés de l'aluminium d'Arvida was founded in 1937. The first primary aluminum production facilities were constructed in Arvida after the First World War, around 1926.Currently, our union is made up of nine certified units. They are: the Complexe Jonquière—hourly and office workers, the Arvida Research and Development Centre, the Laterrière plant—hourly and office workers, the spent pot lining treatment plant, Transport Ferroviaire RS Alma, the Petits Lingots Saguenay plant, and the Énergie Électrique Sud section. Our organization represents around 1,500 active workers and more than 4,000 retirees.Since 2006, a lot has been done, including the implementation of a new business model—the use of subcontracting—taking over the new salary-funded retirement plan and the drug insurance program for active and retired employees, in order to maintain activity at the Centre Électrolyse Ouest, and to provide a transition to the AP-60 pilot plant. That project currently has 38 pots, from a possible 200 pots and more.The lack of protection for Canadian aluminum in the Canada—United States—Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA, is putting into jeopardy the expansion projects for phases 2 and 3 of the new AP-60 technologies.We know that Mexico produces no primary aluminum. However, nothing prevents them from buying aluminum from countries like China, Russia, and so on, at a low price and then flooding the American market, our principal importer. About 85% of Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean's aluminum production is exported to the United States, a large part of which goes to the automotive industry.I now want to talk about the impact of the agreement on the workforce.The Centre Électrolyse Ouest will have no operating permit after 2025 and is scheduled to be closed in the coming years. All the projects that are put on ice will affect several hundred direct and indirect jobs providing good working conditions. The direct and indirect impact on jobs affects workers from Rio Tinto, subcontractors, construction workers, local suppliers and regional equipment suppliers.Any phases of the projects that Rio Tinto does not bring to completion have a number of impacts on the workforce. Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesSyndicat national des employés de l'aluminium d'Arvida Unifor - local 1937Trade agreements608284160828426082843608284460828456082846608284760828486082849Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert (Vice-President, Syndicat National des Employés de l'Aluminium d'Arvida Unifor - Local 1937): (1535)[Translation]According to a study commissioned by our union, the city of Saguenay, the city of Alma, the Syndicat des travailleurs de l'aluminium d'Alma, and the Aluminum Valley Society, creating and maintaining jobs is very important, if you refer to the table. We can come back to the table later to explain what it shows. In 2024, the year halfway between 2020 and 2029, we can see that the operations of phase 2 and 3 of the AP-60 plant in Jonquière, not considering the possible closure of the Arvida plant—the old plant—will generate, across Quebec, a total of 600 direct jobs in plant activities, 580 indirect jobs with suppliers and 326 induced jobs at the consumption end, for a combined total of 1,506 jobs in person-years, and $505.1 million in new expenditures in the Quebec economy in 2024.The average annual salary is $81,125 for direct jobs, $62,953 for indirect jobs and $40,828 for induced jobs, for a total payroll of $98.5 million in 2024 or an average salary per job generated of $65,404 per year.In closing, ratifying this agreement with no protection for the aluminum sector will have major negative impacts on our workers.Our expertise in aluminum, the greenest in the world because of its low carbon footprint, as well as our research and development centres, are major assets that need to be protected.For all those reasons, we are asking the Government of Canada, as well as the opposition parties, to establish a traceability mechanism for aluminum produced and cast in North America. The steel industry must be protected in a similar way to the steel industry. Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesSyndicat national des employés de l'aluminium d'Arvida Unifor - local 1937Trade agreements608285060828516082852608285360828546082855DonatPearsonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMikeKilbyMike-KilbyInterventionMr. Mike Kilby (President and Chief Executive Officer, Dajcor Aluminum): (1535)[English] Thank you, committee members, for allowing me to attend remotely. This accommodation is much appreciated. The brief I've submitted has to do with the elimination of the 70% North American-sourced aluminum content for the automotive industry.In my industry of aluminum extrusion, China has shown an unrelenting desire to dump aluminum extrusion into the United States market and the Canadian market. The European Union initiated its own anti-dumping investigation in February 2020. Both Canada and the U.S. have anti-dumping and countervailing duties in place to stop this dumping.Mexico is a non-producer of aluminum. Mexico does not have aluminum extrusion anti-dumping duties with China. Therefore, Mexico doesn't have an inherent interest in seeing the aluminum content not being sourced in North America.The automotive market is the largest and fastest-growing market for aluminum extrusions as well. Aluminum sheet and castings are also impacted, as is raw aluminum, as you've just heard from the previous witnesses.Several events of tariff circumvention by China have been discovered and stopped through our industry association, the Aluminum Extruders Council, a U.S.-based association that most extruders in North America belong to. There are more in process.The elimination of the 70% aluminum content requirement for autos will open up a very big back door for those Chinese extrusions to enter the U.S. and Canadian markets and will directly impact jobs in the extrusion manufacturing, parts manufacturing and primary metal-producing industries in Canada and the U.S.A.That's all I have in my notes. The rest is contained in my brief.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDajcor Aluminum LtdDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements60828596082860608286160828626082863608286460828656082866Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrianToppBrian-ToppInterventionMr. Brian Topp (Partner, KTG Public Affairs): (1540)[English] It's good to see you.Let me begin by thanking you, Madam Chair and members of the committee, for inviting me here today. My bet is that I was invited to come and talk to you because I was serving on the minister's advisory committee on this matter with a bunch of others. Let me also begin by telling you that I had quite an interesting ringside seat in these negotiations. That being so, it's quite a pleasure to see that you all get to join me in all this fun and decode these issues and address them in the public interest. I'm grateful for this opportunity to share a few reflections and, if I may, offer the committee one piece of advice. I have two opening compliments. My first compliment is to say that I really do think, having watched these negotiations, that Canada was extremely well served by its negotiating team. They deserve to be thanked for their work. Canada, in my view, had the most experienced and thoughtful and prepared and competent set of officials at the table. I'd say our officials had the important comparative advantage of being rationally led. If I can say this across the partisan fence, Minister Freeland did an excellent job in her role and thoroughly earned her recent promotion. It was a pleasure to watch her work.My second opening compliment is to my own tribe's trade critic, the honourable Daniel Blaikie from Elmwood—Transcona, who is apparently talking in the House right now. Last week's agreement between the NDP opposition and the government over ratification was another nice piece of bargaining, in my view, but it's also something else. It's an example, which I hope you're all watching, of how empowered, well-informed and responsible members of Parliament can take advantage of their leverage during periods of minority government to open the windows and turn on the lights in this place and renew accountability and transparency and democratic debate; nicely done.About this agreement, I recommend that this committee refer USMCA, the son of NAFTA, to the House of Commons for ratification. I recommend this for three reasons. First, I think this agreement should be ratified because it captures an extraordinary moment in history. It's an extraordinary moment when the President of the United States, the Senate of the United States, the House of Representatives of the United States, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party all agree that cheap-labour-seeking, race-to-the-bottom trade agreements have gravely hurt American workers, have therefore gravely hurt the United States, and are therefore bad ideas that need to be fixed. That's a true revolution in world trade after decades in which American governments of all hues set the tone around the world by pursuing a very different agenda. They aggressively pursued rules that drove the offshoring of North American jobs for the purpose of capturing low wages and standards overseas, driving down incomes, pensions and terms of work here in North America. In lieu of that, here we have a trade agreement, much improved by the U.S. House of Representatives, that takes some first steps towards raising standards, raising incomes and improving access to unionization and free collective bargaining. It actually intends to enforce these steps. That, I submit, is something that we should grab. It is something that we should build on. Second, in my view, this agreement should be ratified because it frees Canada from chapter 11 of NAFTA. This committee is familiar with the arguments. I won't rehearse them here, but let's keep this point clearly in view. The public interest in achieving this is hard to overstate. Our sovereignty was in some respects fundamentally undermined by this now quietly buried investor-state dispute settlement mechanism. I don't think Canadian exporters to the United States are going to miss it much, given how much leverage the United States government could bring to bear against Canadian companies who tried to use it south of the border. I'll return to this point about leverage in my one piece of advice to you. Third, in my view, this agreement should be ratified because it abolishes the proportionality clause in the energy chapter. This clause was one of the principal American gains from the original free trade agreement and from NAFTA. It was a highly problematic constraint on Canadian sovereignty that Mexico exempted itself in NAFTA, and we're well shot of it. That said, the quiet death of the energy proportionality clause, and the fact that our American partners don't value it anymore and have quietly let it die, says something important about the underlying realities of Canada-U.S. trade. That gets us to my piece of advice for you.(1545) I strongly advise you to say the following to your colleagues in Parliament, in addition to recommending ratification: If there's any lesson in this whole USMCA story, a renegotiation that Canada didn't go looking for, it's this. We are far, far too dependent on trade with the United States, nowhere more so than our energy trade, which our American partners felt they no longer had an interest in guaranteeing.We, therefore, have dangerously little leverage when the random clock-spins of politics south of the border put our economy at risk. Thus, we must, as a matter of urgent and pressing necessity, aggressively and systematically invest in our new trade agreements with the EU and with the Asia-Pacific, backed up by a real, coherent plan that weaves the federal government, the provinces and territories and the private sector together in joint effort, and pursued with determination for many years to come, even when it's not fashionable.We need better leverage. We need to re-empower ourselves in North America by growing and deepening our trade relationships with partners outside North America.We got lucky this round. The target was Mexico. Then we got doubly lucky. Amazingly, the goal was to leverage up instead of leverage down. However, counting on luck isn't a wise strategy for any country. Having bought some time, we shouldn't go to sleep because what just happened with the USMCA wasn't just a bullet that we skilfully dodged and that Parliament can quietly celebrate by quietly ratifying this agreement. It was a big wake-up call.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnergy and fuelGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementKTG Public AffairsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions6082869608287060828716082872608287360828746082875608287660828776082878608287960828806082881Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC): (1545)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to the witnesses who are with us today.Traceability is very important. We are well aware of that and we would like it to be a little more robust.My question goes to the two witnesses from my region.In your opinion, is it because of CUSMA that $6 billion in investments in Quebec are compromised?Aluminum industryBusiness developmentC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsProvince of QuebecTrade agreements60828856082886608288760828886082889Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1545)[Translation]In part. Rio Tinto is waiting to see whether it will be possible to open the market and to take advantage of the increase anticipated in the coming years. When it comes to increasing primary production in Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, the employer is quite guarded about whether the impact will be limited, or whether it is because of the fear of what is often called the commitment to foreign markets. Aluminum industryBusiness developmentC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsProvince of QuebecTrade agreements6082890RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1545)[Translation]China has produced more aluminum in the last 10 years than Canada has in 100 years. What could secure our place in the global market for aluminum?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082891DonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1545)[Translation]In Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, we are developing the Elysis zero-carbon technology. We use green energy to produce aluminum and we emit no greenhouse gases. The use of AP-60 technology with the Elysis project will set us apart and allow us to produce the best aluminum in the world.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmentally friendly productsExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082892RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1545)[Translation]Is it possible to deal with Mexico and the United States by highlighting the fact that our aluminum is greener than that from elsewhere? Is it possible to have an North American policy requiring the purchase of more aluminum produced in Canada, given that it is greener than that from elsewhere?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmentally friendly productsExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082893DonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1545)[Translation]In an ideal world, it would be possible. The agreements could give preference to green aluminum in the North American market. Yes, indeed, that would be ideal. Everything is possible if we can come to an agreement, but Rio Tinto will have to want to abide by it.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmentally friendly productsExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082894RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1545)[Translation]We believe that is possible to ensure that aluminum is traceable on the North American continent. Do you believe that as well?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082895DonatPearsonÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1545)[Translation]Yes, it is possible. If the production of aluminum goods is increasing in the United States and aluminum production in Canada is not increasing, it is because of an imbalance somewhere.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082896RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1550)[Translation]For you, what does more robust traceability mean?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082897ÉricGilbertDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1550)[Translation]To start with, if the primary metal is smelted and cast in North America, either in Canada, the United States or Mexico, it is easy to know where it comes from and where it is processed, using the standards of the Aluminum Stewardship Initiative, the ASI, of which Rio Tinto is a part. That ensures the quality of the aluminum all along the production chain, from bauxite to alumina, right to the customers.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082898RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1550)[Translation]In our region, each aluminum part we make is marked. It is easy to trace our aluminum. This is an easy mechanism to implement, and it just needs a little will on the part of governments.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082899DonatPearsonRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1550)[Translation]So we have traceability here.How about other countries?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements60829006082901ÉricGilbertDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1550)[Translation]That is more difficult.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082902RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya (Nepean, Lib.): (1550)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Topp, you said exactly what is quite obvious, but nobody wants to acknowledge that we are too dependent on the U.S. I come from a business background. In business the fundamental thing is that we have to survive to grow, and we have to grow to survive. The noise that we heard during the negotiations was from the sectors that just want to survive with this market alone, the automotive sector, the steel sector, the aluminum sector.Let's take aluminum. Our friends are from the aluminum industry. No new additional capacity has been set up. No new smelters have been set up in Canada for the last 15 years. If my numbers are correct, 90% of aluminum exports go to just North American markets. I spoke to the Aluminum Association when they were here as witnesses. I don't see any one of them even contemplating using the strength of the North American market, which is basically a captive market for them, as a centre to export to other parts of the world. That I did not hear.In the steel sector 20 years back, the production was around 16 million or 17 million tonnes. Today it's around 15 million or 16 million tonnes. Let's go beyond the aluminum and steel sectors. The trade between Canada and the U.S. during the last, say, seven years, is basically the same at around $320 billion of exports. Even today it is around the same, maybe $322 billion. The imports from the U.S. are still around the same, around $290 billion.The market is there. It is a big market by any standards, but this market is not growing, and our industry is not even surviving. If you ask me, it is contracting. I did ask the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters president if the manufacturing sector is a sunset industry here. Obviously he said no. With your background, the political background and the background in administration, and you have been involved with this, and you know different sectors, I want to know if there is any sector in the Canadian economy that you can see that can increase investment and increase capacity to take on other markets in the world using this argument as the strength.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082907608290860829096082910608291160829126082913608291460829156082916Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrianToppBrianToppBrian-ToppInterventionMr. Brian Topp: (1550)[English]Thank you for the question.Sitting as I am on a panel with a CEO from an aluminum company and with colleagues from the trade union movement for the aluminum company, you will understand if I will not comment on the aluminum industry and maybe let them do so, since they know their business.Maybe I can offer you a few thoughts to begin with by talking about a sector I got to know fairly well recently, which is the Canadian energy sector. Just to underline my point, bearing in mind that energy is our largest export, you would really have to work hard to be more dangerously dependent on one market than we are in the Canadian energy sector on the United States. The province got to live this when it was dealing with the consequences of carrying capacity shortages and had to go through a round of curtailment a year ago to deal with a grotesque discounting of Canadian energy in the United States market, because basically they could. They had a monopoly control over our supply and could basically state the price. Canada had to turn down its exports to tighten up the market and try to deal with a brutal price shock.Just quickly to wrap up, what we saw in these negotiations was, with that kind of monopoly control over that big chunk of our export markets, the Americans don't care about it anymore. The reason they don't care enough about it to have a finger on it in these trade agreements is that they are now net exporters and are our principal competitors. Our commodity exports, like energy, which is what the economy is built on, are obviously where we begin this discussion of trade diversification. Right now we are hard-wired to export even raw commodities to only one market with the consequences we can see, including the price shock in our largest commodity. We have to address that and, of course the Government of Canada is doing that with the Trans Mountain pipeline and taking other measures—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnergy and fuelExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements608291760829186082919608292060829216082922ChandraAryaNepeanJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrianToppBrian-ToppInterventionMr. Brian Topp: (1555)[English]I'm just about done. The question then is the commodity exports aren't good enough. We're going to the world of electric vehicles. We're going to the world where services matter more.My point is you have to work relentlessly to build them outside the United States or you're going to pay the price we almost did here. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements608292460829256082926Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1555)[English]Okay. I may not be able to ask questions. Maybe I just have to correct something. I said almost everybody who came here was just talking the survival game. The only positive note I heard was from the Chemistry Industry Association that forecast a possible $25-billion industry.As you know, the chemistry industry is mostly adding value to the raw materials we have. I was quite surprised that they are even—I thought the basic polymer industry, the petrochemical industry, have no more here, but they are increasing capacity there.Madam Chair, I know I am out of time, so thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChemical industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements608292960829306082931Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): (1555)[Translation]My thanks to all the witnesses.My question goes to Mr. Pearson and Mr. Gilbert, from local 1937 of the Syndicat national des employés de l'aluminium d'Arvida Unifor.From what I understand, you are establishing a link between the provisions of the agreement and the sword of Damocles that may well be threatening a truly successful expansion of the aluminum plants. You are linking the two, if I understand correctly.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608293460829356082936Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekÉricGilbert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1555)[Translation]When Mr. Simard was here with us, he denied that there was a link. He said that actually one of the issues was the price of the metal. I recall asking him at the time whether it would not be preferable to copy the provisions on steel exactly into the provisions on aluminum. He was in agreement.I feel that everyone recognizes that the provisions are not the same. However, when we debated this issue, we often heard that there is a protection in the form of the requirement that 70% of the materials used be from a North American source. Given that you deal with this every day, I feel that you fully understand the difference between parts and smelted and cast aluminum. We have been told, however, that there was nothing at all in NAFTA. How do you react to that argument?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608293860829396082940ÉricGilbertDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1555)[Translation]It would be difficult to say that there are no repercussions. Mr. Simard represents all the producers. So he represents the bosses. As Rio Tinto is a conglomerate, aluminum is not its only product. It has others elsewhere in the world. Aluminum represents only a tiny part of its global trade. If that conglomerate doesn’t make a profit in one area, they make one in others. Steel or aluminum doesn’t matter; they handle both.We believe that there is a correlation. In NAFTA, it was described more or less like it is currently. The present conditions are helpful, but we need protection against Chinese or Russian dumping caused when products come in after secondary processing in Mexico. That is what is hurting us at the moment.I represent one of the plants; it’s called Petits Lingots Saguenay. We produce small, 25-kg ingots for the automotive market, and used for light alloy products. Our plants are directly affected by the dumping in Mexico. Often, our production goes down because the dumping has a direct impact on us. Some minimal protection allowing us to prevent those imports would certainly help us.I am not defending Rio Tinto, but I would say that we have no choice but to comply with the rules established between Canada and the United States. However, as the other party is not complying with those rules, it is difficult to be completely satisfied with how the current agreement is working at the moment. Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082941608294260829436082944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1600)[Translation]You also talked about the environmental value of your aluminum, which is moving towards carbon neutrality. Has that already happened or is it in the process of happening? Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmentally friendly productsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082945DonatPearsonÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1600)[Translation]The current phase is happening in Arvida at the Complexe Jonquière plant. Prototypes are presently being installed. A pilot project already has pots in operation. Of course, establishing a product like that at industrial scale is going to take a number of years. We are moving towards that at the moment. The aluminum produced by hydroelectric energy is certainly green aluminum. But if I use anodes as an example, which are manufactured carbon neutrally, that aluminum is the greenest you can get.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmentally friendly productsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082946Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1600)[Translation]By comparison, Chinese aluminum is produced in conditions that are not at all acceptable environmentally. It is said that it may be produced using coal. Have you heard those rumours?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaEnvironmentally friendly productsGovernment billsTrade agreements60829476082948ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1600)[Translation]Yes.There are studies on it, but I could not confirm it. We produce two tons of CO2 for each ton of aluminum we produce, whereas in China, it’s 18 tons of CO2 per ton of aluminum. So that is eight or nine times more than we produce.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaEnvironmentally friendly productsGovernment billsTrade agreements60829496082950Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1600)[Translation]That’s not the same quality at all.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaEnvironmentally friendly productsGovernment billsTrade agreements6082951ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1600)[Translation]No.These are not publicly traded companies that produce aluminum in China or Russia; these companies are subsidized by the government. The goal is to make people work.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaEnvironmentally friendly productsGovernment billsTrade agreements60829526082953Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1600)[Translation]In a period of climate change, I imagine that there will be a trend towards cars with lighter and lighter parts.Aluminum industryAutomotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6082954ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1600)[Translation]That's right.Aluminum industryAutomotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6082955Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1600)[Translation]So we can say that the aluminum produced in your area could eventually become a big industry that could develop its reach.Aluminum industryAutomotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6082956ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1600)[Translation]Yes.In addition, 85% or 90% of the aluminum we produce is value-added. Alloys are already integrated into the manufacturing process. For example, an aluminum door frame does not have the same alloy as a car door support. It's all relative in terms of the ingredients that are included. These are special and secret recipes. What is special about our region is the production of value-added aluminum.Aluminum industryAutomotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60829576082958Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice (Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, NDP): (1600)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you to our guests for being here with us today. Mr. Pearson and Mr. Gilbert, we were talking about more robust traceability rules that are included in the processes used in your plants.What do you think the federal government could do to improve traceability measures for China and Mexico starting today?We say we want to, but is it realistic to negotiate this on a piecemeal basis?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements60829616082962608296360829646082965Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1600)[Translation]We're a long way from the Mexican border, so it's difficult for us to monitor that. Basically, we have to go through the United States, and it's up to them to accommodate us. Otherwise, we could jointly set up an audit system and use auditors.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082966AlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieAlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-Patrie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1600)[Translation]Are you asking the federal government to begin discussions with our American neighbours on this issue?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082967ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1600)[Translation]I hope they've already started.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsQuality controlTrade agreements6082968AlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieAlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-Patrie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1600)[Translation] The message is out, gentlemen across the table. Mr. Topp, my next question is for you. I want to tell you that I too am delighted that chapter 11 has disappeared. Several years ago now, I often demonstrated in the streets to denounce this chapter, which was in fact a charter of rights for big business.Several months ago, a meeting was held in Montreal with a U.S. Senate committee, the Ways and Means Committee. Members of this committee began talking about the importance of improving the working conditions of Mexican workers. I was puzzled because I thought they were going to talk about American workers. However, the Americans had understood that they could not keep good jobs in the United States if they did not improve the working conditions and wages of Mexican workers.There's a first in the new agreement. There seems to be an agreement to set up a mechanism for complaints, monitoring and possibly sanctions if rights, including trade union rights or free collective bargaining rights, are violated in Mexico.What have you found in your experience with this group? How confident are you in its effectiveness?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions60829696082970608297160829726082973ÉricGilbertBrianToppBrianToppBrian-ToppInterventionMr. Brian Topp: (1605)[Translation]We'll see. It's certainly a good start. We can say that we have an ally on this issue, and that ally is the Mexican government. Let's remember that the President of Mexico was the socialist candidate. We find ourselves in an interesting and new period, because Mexico has a government that wants to work for workers' rights. In a certain sense, there was a convergence of very good factors for the workers of Mexico, and therefore for the workers of Canada and the United States.The Mexican government has changed its priorities. In a way, we're helping that government with this deal. We're telling them that we're supporting them in the cause for which they were elected. It is not going to be easy. Mexico's history is brutal.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions608297460829756082976AlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieAlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieBrianToppBrian-ToppInterventionMr. Brian Topp: (1605)[Translation]As we all know, there are famous and well-known causes in the metalworking world and elsewhere. It's only a beginning, but it's a good beginning and a good alliance. As I said earlier, it's also a huge shift in priorities and form. So, for that reason, I say it's a good start.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions6082978AlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieAlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-Patrie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1605)[Translation]Fine.If time permits, I'd like to hear from everybody. Traditionally, when there are trade agreements like this, the federal governments consult and receive people. Then all that information goes into a kind of magic box and disappears. You don't hear about it again until the end.Do you think the federal government should set the objectives for new negotiations for these agreements? What do we want to achieve? Where do we draw a red line to say that we don't want to sacrifice the supply management system, for example? Afterwards, there would be a process of going back and forth with stakeholders, industry and unions so that everyone is aware and there are no nasty surprises at the end.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60829796082980608298160829826082983BrianToppBrianToppBrianToppBrian-ToppInterventionMr. Brian Topp: (1605)[Translation]If I am not mistaken, this proposal came from the NDP caucus, which said that we needed a new process. I believe I saw a letter of agreement between the government and the caucus that talks about these issues.As I said, it is obvious that we should have, at least, the same openness and transparency as in the United States and Mexico on this issue. So, if there are any good things to come out of this process in a minority government, in Canada, it's that we're going to agree on what the future process or the new agreement will be.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60829846082985AlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieAlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-Patrie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1605)[Translation]Does anyone else want to comment on the transparency of the negotiation process for the Canadian and Quebec public?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6082986BrianToppJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMikeKilbyMike-KilbyInterventionMr. Mike Kilby: (1605)[English]My manufacturing business uses the very raw product that my colleagues from Quebec produce. I produce parts from that which are fed up into tier one manufacturers that end up in the OEM automobiles that we all drive. I am the market for that raw product that is produced in Quebec. I can tell you unequivocally that to protect our industry and to advance the interests of our aluminum industry in Canada, we need to close the back door with Mexico. I know this is a narrow subject for me to advance, but it has been a long, hard-fought and hard-won battle to get anti-dumping and countervailing duties on Chinese metal entering Canada and the United States. Both countries have anti-dumping and countervailing duties in place for a reason. Our industries were almost wiped off the face of North America in 2009-10.Anti-dumping dutyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60829906082991Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram (Regina—Wascana, CPC): (1610)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. Because we are joined by Mr. Gilbert and so many representatives from the aluminum sector, I'm going to be sharing my time with Mr. Martel.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60829956082996Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1610)[Translation]Thank you. I would like to know the differences between the old NAFTA and the CUSMA, because you say that the CUSMA compromises investment. I would like to know why.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60829976082998MichaelKramRegina—WascanaÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1610)[Translation]Surely a company that loses production or sales capacity to an unfair competitor—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6082999RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1610)[Translation]I want to know the differences between NAFTA and the CUSMA in its current form.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083000ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1610)[Translation]At the time NAFTA was concluded, almost 25 or 30 years ago, aluminum production in Russia and China was not the same as it is today, as was mentioned earlier. They are the ones who have been trying to corner the aluminum market for the last 15 or 20 years.We can't compare NAFTA and CUSMA because, in reality, this is a redesign of NAFTA. We find that there is no protection for aluminum. The provision related to the 70% requirement does not prevent Mexico from moving aluminum through the United States. Basically, we're here as employee union representatives to say that we want to keep our jobs in this area. We want to produce aluminum and we want to grow our business. We need the AP-60 plant to expand and continue to promote green aluminum and traceability. That's what will make our aluminum production strong, regionally, nationally and provincially.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608300160830026083003RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1610)[Translation]Do you believe that the CUSMA poses a danger to your workers?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083004ÉricGilbertDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1610)[Translation]Yes, because we see that the employer is reluctant to send more metal to the market. We also see other companies moving small ingots through Mexico, where they sell for $150 a tonne cheaper than what we produce. It's still pretty hard to compete when there are no anti-dumping measures in place.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083005RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/100521RichardMartelRichard-MartelChicoutimi—Le FjordConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MartelRichard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Martel: (1610)[Translation]Finally, I would like to ask you one last question. Between the position of the president of the Syndicat des travailleurs de l'aluminium d'Alma, Mr. Sylvain Maltais, who is not at all reassured by the CUSMA, and that of the president of the Syndicat national des employés de l'aluminium de Baie-Comeau, Mr. Michel Desbiens, who says he is concerned, but not necessarily worried, where does your union stand?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083006DonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1610)[Translation]I don't want to speak for Mr. Maltais, but when we came here three or four weeks ago, the United Steelworkers were opposed to the ratification of the agreement. As for Mr. Desbiens, you're quoting his opinion, but I'm not able to speak for him either.We, on the other hand, are not against ratification of the agreement. We know it has to be done, but it should include some protection for aluminum.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60830076083008RichardMartelChicoutimi—Le FjordRichardMartelChicoutimi—Le Fjord//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1610)[English]Okay, very good.Mr. Topp, you talked about Canada's dependence on exports to the United States. The United States is the only country that shares a border with us. What can we do in the long term to reduce our dependence on exports to the United States?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60830126083013Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrianToppBrianToppBrian-ToppInterventionMr. Brian Topp: (1610)[English]Not only are they our only border, but with regard to our commodity exports, all our infrastructure is built to go there. We would be wise to diversity our infrastructure so that we can get to foreign markets, especially the Pacific one.You know, a couple of weekends ago I was in Texas. I popped down to Austin to check it out. I was in the Government of Alberta for a while, and we took a close look at what happened in Texas. They were pretty smart there. After the 1986 oil shock, they told themselves essentially what I'm saying here, which is that we need to diversify and we need more markets. What's that about? It's about the federal government and provinces and industry, perhaps led by banks, deciding that we're going to systematically exploit both commodity and value-added markets in Asia-Pacific and in Europe, in a circumstance in which this negotiation has taught us how dangerously dependent we are on that market, and how little leverage and consequence we have. It's the second point that's really my point.This trade relationship is governed by this agreement. Hopefully it's going to continue to be governed for some time, and we have precious little leverage here, because we really don't have any other significant markets to rely on. We must remedy that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements608301460830156083016MichaelKramRegina—WascanaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon (Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, Lib.): (1615)[Translation] I thank each of you for being present and for giving us such relevant information.My next question is for Mr. Pearson and Mr. Gilbert.Do you know what the approximate current production capacity of the Rio Tinto plant is?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608301960830206083021Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1615)[Translation]The old Arvida plant produces about 175,000 tonnes. When I talk about the old plant, I'm talking about the old potrooms.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083022StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]What is its capacity?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083023ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1615)[Translation]That is its maximum capacity.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083024StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]So you're running at full capacity.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083025ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1615)[Translation]As far as the old potrooms go, yes.The 38-tank AP-60 pilot plant produces approximately 65,000 tonnes per year. If we ever have a phase 2 and a phase 3, it will have a capacity of over 500,000 tonnes.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60830266083027StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]Let's just stick to the current phase. Regardless of the other projects, you're operating at full capacity right now, aren't you?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083028ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1615)[Translation]Yes.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083029StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1615)[Translation]This is the Arvida factory. The Laterrière plant produces 260,000 tonnes per year, the Grande-Baie plant produces 235,000 tonnes per year, and the Alma plant produces 450,000 tonnes per year. This gives a total production of nearly 1.3 million tonnes per year in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean region. Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083030ÉricGilbertStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]So your facilities are running at full capacity right now. Is that correct?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083031DonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1615)[Translation]Yes. All the plants are running at full capacity.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083032StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]They are running at full capacity, shutdowns are made, repairs are made and production is resumed at full capacity.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083033DonatPearsonÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1615)[Translation]I don't want to interrupt you, but let's not forget that we're past the shelf life of the old prebake potrooms.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083034StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]Yes. We've discussed the equipment with your employer. You know that there are budgets for transformation, especially since you have made a green shift. There are already funds that are earmarked to help the industry. In addition, for a number of years, you have had assistance to maintain your business. The government has injected a lot of money into your company for maintenance.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083035ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1615)[Translation]That's right, Mr. Lauzon.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083036StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]I've been wondering about something.You said that for 10 years, in the last few years, the plant has been operating at full capacity. Now you're telling me that Rio Tinto is still at risk of losing jobs as a result of this agreement, and not developing further.Those are two things you said, that ratification of this agreement will result in job losses and a drop in development. Is that right?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesTrade agreements6083037608303860830396083040ÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1615)[Translation]If we lose orders, it will have to come to that.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesTrade agreements6083041StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]If there hasn't been any ratification of an agreement like the CUSMA requiring 70% secondary processing of auto parts for 10 years, and if it was going well even though China was in the market—China was experiencing full growth about 10 years ago, and it peaked six years ago—how can you now expect to lose market share when the plants are operating at full capacity? In fact, your employer says that expansion is not being hindered at this time by the signing of the agreement, but rather that globalization and world market prices are changing the market. He made that clear to the committee.How can you predict job losses and that things will go wrong when you are operating at full capacity?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesTrade agreements60830426083043ÉricGilbertDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1615)[Translation]You know that Rio Tinto is a very big company, managing billions of dollars. On our side, we see that the equipment is aging. We are very attentive and we follow very closely what is happening on the order side. There are certain technologies that are aging and there are frequent breakdowns.When we are unable to supply our customers, what do they do? They look elsewhere for what they need. We lose customers over time anyway. Rio Tinto still manages to gain market share by diversifying. We're not against that. Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesTrade agreements60830446083045StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]I understand what you're telling me, but the customers are there. In a company, it's normal to lose customers and it's normal to gain new ones.What I'm saying is that the plants are currently operating at full capacity. It can't get any better, except that there's no investment. The owners told us flat out that it was globalization that was causing the investments not to be made. I want to get back to the quality of your product.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608304660830476083048DonatPearsonDonatPearson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1615)[Translation]I'm a metallurgist by trade. I worked in the field of metallurgy for 21 years and I can tell you that the company that employs you has always been recognized. The person who taught in my department came directly from you.The alloys you make stand out. It's the strength of your business. The company will always stand out.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60830516083052Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1620)[Translation]Indeed.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083053StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationStéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-Nation//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88394StéphaneLauzonStéphane-LauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LauzonStéphane_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Stéphane Lauzon: (1620)[Translation]How can the poor-quality aluminum produced in China take the place of your product when your plants comply with environmental standards, for example?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083054DonatPearsonÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1620)[Translation]If you bring the aluminum in through Mexico, there's remelting. So you're remelting aluminum. At that point, you can bring in alloys. That's how we lose our niche.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083055StéphaneLauzonArgenteuil—La Petite-NationJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105082DaveEppDave-EppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EppDave_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dave Epp (Chatham-Kent—Leamington, CPC): (1620)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.I have a question for Mike Kilby.Several months ago, I had the opportunity to tour your facility and witness first-hand the growth from zero to 250 employees over a 10-year period. You walked me through the impact of the CIIT findings in 2014, 2019, and the U.S. findings in 2016, regarding countervail and dumping. Can you tell me how this deal and its provisions will impact the employment level at your facility? Also, how could the U.S. 2021 review of that potentially impact your facility?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6083058608305960830606083061Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMikeKilbyMikeKilbyMike-KilbyInterventionMr. Mike Kilby: (1620)[English] Thank you.As I said before, these anti-dumping and countervailing duties have been very important for the Canadian and U.S. operations of aluminum extruders. It's allowed the extrusion industry to recover and thrive again. The extrusion industry just hit the 2006 levels again in 2018. It is a growing industry. Manufacturing jobs are coming back to the industry. I know that of nine extruders in Ontario, six serve the automotive industry, and all are growing right now and adding both facilities and employees.The 70% requirement for aluminum for automotive is a really big deal for us. More and more, automotive business is starting to move into Mexico, and the Chinese have been unrelenting in finding ways around the anti-dumping and countervailing duty tariffs. We know that Mexico is the back door in for that industry. There is no other reason for Mexico to insist on the reduction or elimination of that 70%. They can get aluminum in North America like everybody else. My colleagues from Quebec will be displaced out of Mexico over time. There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind about that. The Chinese have already moved metal into Mexico. They tried to move it into the United States subsequently and were caught red-handed doing it. They were fined and so on. They then moved that metal to Vietnam and tried to move it back into the United States. These are the types of things we're up against with the elimination of that 70% North American content for aluminum. This is the thing that will help investment in the aluminum industry in North America. Those things all fit together. Why Mexico would insist on its elimination is beyond me, other than they want to advantage themselves on subsidized and dumped metal into Mexico.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements608306260830636083064608306560830666083067DaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonDaveEppChatham-Kent—Leamington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105082DaveEppDave-EppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/EppDave_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Dave Epp: (1620)[English]As a follow-up, can you explain to me whether in the section 232 tariff exemption that Canada and Mexico presently enjoy there is any way that some form of protection can be afforded to our domestic extruders and smelters through that mechanism, or through parts, is imported aluminum basically undetectable?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6083068MikeKilbyMikeKilbyMikeKilbyMike-KilbyInterventionMr. Mike Kilby: (1620)[English]Yes, the section 232 order has given a boost to the price of metal in North America. It should be helping smelters in both Canada and the United States with investment decisions. Both Canada and Mexico were exempted from that 10% duty, but the provision was also put in that if exports of regular fare extrusions from either Canada or Mexico start coming across the border and those numbers start to rise, the United States would revisit those provisions.We're hyper aware of that as an industry in Canada. We're not going to be biting the hand that feeds us in that regard. We're all very aware of the implications of section 232, but also, it does keep Mexico honest for stopping other what I'll call normal fare extrusions, non-automotive extrusions, coming across the border into the U.S. in large quantities.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements60830696083070DaveEppChatham-Kent—LeamingtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): (1620)[English]Thank you very much to all of our presenters. It's excellent testimony. I think I'll start with Brian Topp. We've all heard about the team Canada approach. A lot of us were part of it. I know that at your level the minister engaged with people from the NDP and the Conservative Party and really tried to gain perspectives from the different premiers at all sorts of political levels. This trade committee was down in Washington a couple of times, eyeballing our counterparts, both Conservative and the NDP opposition members, and saying, “We're not going to ratify that in Parliament unless you lift those steel and aluminum tariffs.” I'm from a steel town, with Algoma Steel and Tenaris, and, by the way, we also have a lot of small steel producers.Brian, for the record, could you comment on your perspective on that sort of team Canada approach and how it resonated with the Americans that you were dealing with, as opposed to their approach, and how that, going forward, will help us with future deals?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083073608307460830756083076Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrianTopp//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1625)[English] That's fair enough.To the aluminum folks, since we're on the topic of steel and aluminum that we had the section 232 tariffs on, how have they affected your particular businesses? The government announced a few things in support of your industries. We heard testimony from both the steel and aluminum industries that they're still on their heels after the 25% and 10% tariffs, and that things like the strategic innovation fund that was available for large producers and small and medium-sized producers...and any other support that you think going forward will help your industries continue to grow as we are coming out of those section 232 tariffs that were just lifted in May of this past year.I will start with the guy from Chatham, near Sault Ste. Marie.Voices: Oh, oh!C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsMetalworking industryTrade agreements60830786083079608308060830816083082BrianToppMikeKilbyMikeKilbyMike-KilbyInterventionMr. Mike Kilby: (1625)[English]The section 232 tariffs did have a negative impact on us. The lifting of those tariffs has helped us for sure.Our industry is fairly geographic. As you push extrusions farther into the United States, the geography of freight gets in the way. There is an impact from section 232. It did exist and doesn't anymore. The very fact that it can be reimplemented keeps industry honest, from trying to further advantage themselves from the lack of the tariff.I'm not sure if that answers the question.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsMetalworking industryTrade agreements608308360830846083085TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1625)[English]I think it does. I think it's important to highlight and underline your statement, and I think we heard testimony that if it were ever reimplemented as any kind of tool, it would definitely have a negative effect on your industry, so I appreciate that.I'll ask our friends from Quebec the same question.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsMetalworking industryTrade agreements60830866083087MikeKilbyDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1625)[Translation]The 10% tariffs put in place for aluminum have had an impact. If I'm not mistaken—and I don't want to speak for Rio Tinto—I believe it was a $20 million loss per month to the employer. It didn't necessarily slow down primary metal production. It's really the primary metal that's produced in our facilities.I used to represent the Laterrière plant where they make rolling ingots. One hundred percent of our production went to the United States. This had the effect of imposing an additional tax on the employer. At the same time, however, the so-called Midwest premium was increased. This balanced the situation for the employer.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsMetalworking industryTrade agreements60830886083089TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1625)[Translation]It was mostly, I believe, the small producers who used our aluminum that were being penalized because of that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsMetalworking industryTrade agreements6083090DonatPearsonTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1625)[English]Yes. It was our experience, in hearing some testimony on the effect on small and medium-size because of the integration of the North American Free Trade Agreement in the past, about how aluminum and steel could pass back and forth through the border once or twice. We put a lot of measures in place to rebate those individuals, but small and medium-size businesses sometimes don't have the cash flow or capacity that a large place like Rio would have. We definitely heard those issues.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsMetalworking industryTrade agreements6083091ÉricGilbertJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1630)[Translation]We could pick up the conversation where we left off.You didn't have time to answer a question from my colleague earlier. I'm going to give you the opportunity to do so.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60830946083095Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1630)[Translation]Indeed. We were saying that for the last 10 years, Russian and Chinese production has been stagnating. Rio Tinto seemed to say that our production had remained the same and that it had not been affected.I want to remind you what's happened in Quebec over the last 10 years. Rio Tinto closed the Beauharnois plant and the Shawinigan plant. They were old plants.The next plant to close, the oldest one in existence, is ours. Basically, what we want is to have a future in terms of production at the AP-60 plant during phases 2 and 3, so that after the closure of our plant, which is at the end of its life, we can look forward to a future at the AP-60 plant. That is what the debate is about.When it is said that China's production has had no effect on Rio Tinto's production, it is not true. Two plants in Quebec have closed, and ours is next on the list. I don't think the Alma plant will be closed before ours.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083096608309760830986083099Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1630)[Translation]Hence the idea that the aluminum smelters could expand.If we were to establish real rules about the origin of aluminum, like the ones the steel industry benefits from, can you tell us how, in concrete terms, that would make your life easier? Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCountry of originGovernment billsTrade agreements60831006083101ÉricGilbertDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1630)[Translation]We want Rio Tinto to move the projects forward and complete the testing phase at the AP-60 plants. Instead of simply selling the technology platform, we need to go to new markets by developing AP-60 with Elysis technology, which eliminates all greenhouse gases and makes our aluminum even greener, which we need to promote. We must ensure the future of our industry.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCountry of originGovernment billsTrade agreements6083102Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1630)[Translation]And that of the workers.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCountry of originGovernment billsTrade agreements6083103DonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1630)[Translation]That of the workers as well, of course, since we represent them.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCountry of originGovernment billsTrade agreements6083104ÉricGilbertSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1630)[Translation]If we had a North American content rule for aluminum and not for aluminum parts, that would change everything. Is that correct?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCountry of originGovernment billsTrade agreements6083105DonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1630)[Translation]This would go a long way towards developing the market.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCountry of originGovernment billsTrade agreements6083106Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1630)[Translation]Based on your knowledge of the market, in the best of all possible worlds, would it be in Mexico's interest to adopt anti-dumping measures? When I look at the overall situation, I have the impression that it is only Quebec that can really be affected.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6083107DonatPearsonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1630)[Translation]Currently, in Mexico, there is practically one smelter opening per week. There are Chinese consortiums that own plants in Mexico. So it is in their interest to bring their own metal and then reintroduce it into America.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6083109Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): (1630)[English]Witnesses, thank you so much for your presentations.My questions really centre on the process with respect to negotiating trade deals. In this instance, it is the Canada-U.S.-Mexico agreement. We have for a very long time consistently been in the situation where trade deals are negotiated and signed, and then Canadians get let in on the deal after it is all said and done. The New Democrats have been pushing to change that effort so there would be more transparency and more ability for government to know what Canadians are thinking with respect to trade deals and what's important to them.To that end, in going forward with respect to trade deals, I'd like to seek your advice on what kind of changes you would like to see with respect to process. I'll start with Mr. Topp, please.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60831126083113608311460831156083116Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBrianToppBrianToppBrian-ToppInterventionMr. Brian Topp: (1635)[English]As we were discussing a little earlier, a good place to start is the letter of understanding between the NDP opposition caucus and the government. This speaks to the goals that you're just outlining. I think a good place to start is that Canadians should have as much access to these kinds of discussions as Americans and Mexicans do. The process in Congress and in the Mexican congress are more formal, more transparent, have more stops in them, more requirement for government to explain what's going on than we have in Canada. Your colleague the honourable Daniel Blaikie, I think, has underlined these very effectively. Now we have to think about how to enshrine that in the rules, so the next time Parliament deals with these kinds of issues, you don't have to use the kind of leverage that's available in a minority Parliament to force it.This is a requirement, I think, for the government to lay out what its goals are in the negotiations, to give stakeholders an opportunity to comment on them before the negotiations start, for the government to give progress reports on what's happening, for stakeholders to be able to give feedback and then for the matter to be assessed and for the ultimate result to be benchmarked against the results, before Parliament makes its decision. That's what Americans have and Mexicans have and what Canadians should have, too. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements608311760831186083119JennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver EastDonatPearsonDonat-PearsonInterventionMr. Donat Pearson: (1635)[Translation]Our labour organization is interested, through its president, Mr. Jerry Dias, in getting involved in such issues. We have staff who are in a position to provide input to the government or the opposition parties. We are always available to get involved in these kinds of issues.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6083123JennyKwanVancouver EastÉricGilbertÉricGilbertÉric-GilbertInterventionMr. Éric Gilbert: (1635)[Translation]It was the opposition parties that highlighted our situation and invited us to come and debate this issue. I do not know if in the future it will be important to consult all the people who are affected by these decisions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6083124DonatPearsonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg (General Manager, Honey Bee Manufacturing Ltd.): (1700)[English] Thank you.Madam Chair, committee members, my name is Jamie Pegg, and I have the privilege of representing the 160 employees of Honey Bee Manufacturing as their general manager.I have with me here today, Mr. Scott Smith, one of our employees who has been integral in bringing to light our requests and concerns.We want to thank you for the opportunity to express our support for the new trade agreement and to address some requirements that our business sector will need. Greetings are extended to you from all of the Honey Bee employees, as well as from the nine different small-town communities these people call home in southwest Saskatchewan.Greetings are also offered from Donna Boyd, the chairwoman of Agricultural Manufacturers of Canada, and their 240-plus members.Honey Bee Manufacturing was established in 1979 by two brothers, Greg and Glenn Honey, who started to manufacture agricultural innovations that they developed on their farm in Bracken, Saskatchewan. They innovated a swather. Their neighbour wanted it, and then the farmer down the road wanted it. After 40 years, farmers from over 26 nations have used Honey Bee equipment to harvest their crops more efficiently and effectively so more people can eat. The key products Honey Bee produces are combine headers, to be used on almost any combine manufactured worldwide, and swathers that attach to either tractors or power units to cut and dry the crop before the combine comes to harvest it.Original equipment manufacturers, OEMs, like John Deere, Case, New Holland and AGCO have all recognized the value of Honey Bee innovation in harvesting. At different times, they have entered into partner agreements with Honey Bee to produce either brand name headers and swathers or a Honey Bee branded table.The innovation that has defined Honey Bee products has supported hundreds of employees at the facility in Frontier, Saskatchewan, with a population of 300. Honey Bee is the key economic driver in southwest Saskatchewan, covering a radius of over 100 kilometres. Today, if you look around the main operations area, as well as research and development, you will see employees who represent four and five generations of farming in the local area, as well as new Canadians from the Philippines, India, Venezuela, Ukraine, Syria and Germany. We are a global company in terms of the people we work with as well as the markets we sell to. Over the last two years, Honey Bee credits Canada for 40% of its sales and relies on the rest of the world for 60% of its sales, including 33% to the United States of America.Being a global company, we rely on and support free trade agreements that Canada participates in. They are a necessity in our industry. One only needs to look at the last two years of tariffs and closed borders to see the negative impact they have on our industry. We estimate that these measures cost Honey Bee millions of dollars and closed the door on a lot of job creation. That is not taking into consideration the additional cost that farmers needlessly absorb when they have to buy new equipment because of the increased price of metals and components required to build our equipment.NAFTA was a continuation of the excellent trade relations that agricultural manufacturers enjoyed with the United States. We are hoping CUSMA will be the same. The key take-away from our testimony today is that our industry is placed on an uneven playing field versus the United States.Honey Bee's opportunity to capitalize on intellectual property is based on our ability to operate with OEM platforms. Interoperability means that a Honey Bee harvest header can “plug and play” with the OEM combine. Historically, this has been provided in a straightforward and obvious way, just like the way a keyboard plugs into a computer. Today, we are starting to see encrypted digital interfaces on the OEM products that block us from connecting and operating our harvest headers on these OEM platforms.Further, there is no technical information or parts forthcoming from the OEM to achieve the required adaptations independent of their direct involvement with Honey Bee engineering teams. The net result is “authorized use only”. This is controlled by the OEM digital locks and keys that are unavailable to implement manufacturers. Instead of spending our research budget on innovation, we are burning it on adaptation. The vast majority of these machinery platforms are manufactured by companies in the United States and sold worldwide. In order for Honey Bee to continue to participate locally and globally on these platforms, we need to have the ability to connect the two and operate them in a straightforward manner.According to Stats Canada, Honey Bee is about one of 1,400 manufacturers in Canada that develop implement products that attach to large OEM platforms. About 500 of these companies are agricultural implement manufacturers. We are dependent on the OEM platforms to host our innovation.(1705) The impact of a technical lockout by the OEM will be the death of the Canadian implement industry and will decimate our communities. Most of the 500 agricultural implement manufacturers in Canada are located adjacent to smaller rural communities where they tend to make a significant contribution to jobs and the funding of essential services. This would be lost. The Canadian manufacturing supply chain would also be greatly impacted.Interoperability issues affect equipment in all Canadian industrial implement sectors, which include ag, mining, construction and forestry. OEM platforms are the engines of industry that provide the power to perform work, including combines and tractors; load, haul and dump equipment; excavators and forestry forwarders. Innovation is characterized by the traits of meeting specific user requirements that are not met by the OEM one-size-fits-all offering. Honey Bee innovation caters to the specific needs of our many markets and considers their unique operating environments, farming practices and crop diversity. Meeting these challenges is a global requirement that brings Canadian innovation to the world.Securing the ability to commercialize innovative products in Canada is at risk today. Legislation and the trade agreement, CUSMA, don't address this, and they should. Canadian industry should have the freedom to innovate commercially on OEM platforms.New IP clauses in the CUSMA do not place U.S. and Canadian implement manufacturers on the same footing. U.S. copyright law makes exceptions for legally modifying motorized agricultural equipment for the purpose of interoperability. Canadian copyright law does not provide for these exemptions, making it illegal for Honey Bee, or any Canadian company, to reverse engineer OEM platforms to achieve interoperability. Canada has no exception for motorized land vehicles, such as a personal automobile, commercial vehicle or mechanized agricultural vehicle, as per U.S. exemptions. The current U.S. copyright law allows for you to attach to products in the U.S. but not in Canada. This means that products made in Canada cannot be legally adapted in Canada, putting Canadian manufacturers and farmers at a disadvantage for no reason other than the lack of clarifying language. We also seek to have changes to domestic law that mandate that the OEM equipment platforms sold in Canada interoperate with any of the implements available for use by farmers in Canada. Honey Bee desires that the CUSMA adopt some form of mandate to this effect.Canada leads the world in agricultural innovation. From high-performance seed varieties to soil management, seed planting, and crop nutrients through to harvest tools, crop processing and farm technology, Canada stands tall in global agriculture. According to the Government of Canada trade data online, the agricultural equipment industry in Canada exports over $2.3 billion of agricultural equipment a year. The United States accounts for about $1.9 billion of this. Therefore, it is very important that Canadian agricultural equipment be able to interoperate with American platforms for this continued success.It is crucial that the CUSMA ensure that it protects and allows the Canadian agricultural industry to not only maintain its status as a world leader, but promote industrial growth within Canada and Canadian brands around the world. At the start of this testimony, I offered you greetings from our 160 employees and their families. My desire is to see the number of employees and families increase as the company grows. Because of the pro-Canada decisions made around the CUSMA, my fear is that we have not been heard today and, in the not-too-distant future, I will have to address those same employees and tell them that they no longer have jobs. That will be the impact if we do not address the discrepancy between the Canada and U.S. copyright exemptions in this agreement.I also want to highlight that Honey Bee is a very small player on a very large stage. If unaddressed, there will be hundreds of businesses, employing thousands of people supporting numerous communities, that will diminish or vanish. At a minimum, the requested exemption that gives us parity with our U.S. counterparts on reverse engineering for interoperability needs to be added to the Copyright Act prior to signing the CUSMA. It is an imperative for the Canadian agricultural manufacturing industry in Canada.Thank you for your time. We're open for questions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsHoney Bee Manufacturing Ltd.Trade agreements608313360831346083135608313660831376083138608313960831406083141608314260831436083144608314560831466083147608314860831496083150608315160831526083153608315460831556083156608315760831586083159608316060831616083162Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekShelleyBaconShelley-BaconInterventionMr. Shelley Bacon (Chief Executive Officer, Northern Cables Inc.): (1710)[English] Good morning. I'm going to let Todd Stafford give the presentation.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsNorthern Cables Inc.Trade agreements6083166Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford (President, Northern Cables Inc.): (1710)[English] Good day. I'm Todd Stafford. I'm the president of Northern Cables in Brockville, Ontario. Northern Cables is a 24-year-old Canadian owned and operated manufacturing company based in Brockville, Ontario. We are the remainder of what was once a large domestic aluminum wiring cable manufacturing industry in Canada. Gone are Canadian-owned companies like Alcan, Canada Wire and Cable, and Phillips Cables. These businesses were supplied mainly with primary aluminum produced in the province of Quebec. In 24 years Northern Cables has grown to three manufacturing facilities of 275,000 square feet and 250 full-time employees. Our company processes materials sourced only in North America. Northern Cables purchases the bulk of its cast aluminum rod from the province of Quebec and exports about 50% of its finished products out of the country.Since the economic cycle in 2007 when copper reached a price of $4.20 U.S. per pound, the popularity of using aluminum as an alternative material in power cables has increased dramatically. The U.S. government has attempted to apply tariffs on aluminum and steel products originating from outside of the United States, specifically aimed at China. Unfortunately, these measures are easily avoided by applying connectors to cables and reclassifying goods as other products, such as by selling aluminum in cast animal shapes.Part of the tariff actions reflected concern with material being shipped to other transshipment countries before entering the United States. Statistics Canada shows significant imports of aluminum wire in the form of stranded conductors—bare, insulated and assembled cables coming from China, India, Turkey and the United States. An action by two large U.S. domestic manufacturing companies resulted in a finding by the U.S. Department of Commerce that Chinese imports were sold in the U.S. at 58.5% to 63.4% below fair value. Chinese exporters received countervailing subsidies at the rate of 33% to 165%.Since this hearing is about the new Canada-U.S.-Mexico free trade agreement, Northern Cables has four points we'd like to raise to protect the domestic manufacturers from being harmed.First, enforce that landed prices of competing foreign manufacturers arrive at fair market value in Canada.Second, enforce that Canada not become a transshipment country into which aluminum is dumped, causing displacement of other aluminum.Third, strengthen our customs import codes so that products cannot be mislabelled or repackaged in such a way as to circumvent our import rules and permit below-market prices entering Canada.Last, support Canadian manufacturers' interests on CSA and UL wire and cable committees and standards, in which harmonization by the other two countries could reduce existing Canadian safety standards. A little example of this is the need for -40°C-rated cables in Canada rather than the -25°C-rated cables available in the United States.Thank you.AluminumC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDumping of importsFair market valueGovernment billsImportsManufacturing industryNorthern Cables Inc.Packaging and labellingSetting of standardsTrade agreements60831676083168608316960831706083171608317260831736083174608317560831766083177ShelleyBaconJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): (1710)[English]Thank you, Chair. Thank you, witnesses, for being here this afternoon.The USMCA, or new NAFTA, or NAFTA 0.5, is an important deal for Canada. There's no question about it. It's $2 billion a day. We will approve this agreement, but one thing I definitely want to do at this committee is talk to different sectors and different industries to make sure we have an understanding of the impact and where it's negatively impacting a sector or an industry, that we put in the appropriate mitigation to help minimize that impact. I'll start off with you, James, and Honey Bee. We talked about this issue with regard to John Deere and Case and companies like that not opening up their architecture and electronics to allow the functionality of your headers. Do you see anything in the USMCA that will actually allow us to deal with that, maybe using U.S. law, for example, to make it easier?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60831806083181608318260831836083184Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJamiePeggScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith (Manager, Components, Systems and Integration, Honey Bee Manufacturing Ltd.): (1715)[English]The Copyright Law of the United States provides exemptions specifically for reverse engineering for interoperability. Interoperability was born out of the requirement for computer software to allow people with physical disabilities to enter data into a computer. Software wasn't written to accommodate that, so a provision had to be made for mouth-straw types of keyboards and whatever.Today in the ag industry and the industrial equipment industry we're seeing these digital interfaces that replace straightforward plain old wire systems that still work. There's no additional functionality with the digital systems that are being employed on the new designs. They're just simply doing it to provide a technical lockout. It can be a wired one or it can be wireless. As a minimum, the U.S. Copyright Law allows for this reverse engineering for interoperability specifically on farm and industrial equipment. It would still cost us a lot of money for a single adaptation to work around that system. On one of the AGCO products we developed, it cost between $800,000 and $1 million for one product, to put one swather on one tractor. We have a lot of products and a lot of tractors and combines out there, so if we have to do that, it would be completely unfeasible.Ideally, at a minimum the Copyright Act includes the same exemptions that are provided by the U.S. Copyright Law. The information we've supplied has the link to that U.S. standard, as well as the motivation for it and explanation of it. It's very clear. It's really just clarifying language. It's updating it to be modern to reflect the realities of the industries we work in.Ultimately, though, we're going to require some form of mandate that equipment be brought into the company with open interoperability as a default position. Ideally, that happens at the federal level, because it affects all provinces.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsHoney Bee Manufacturing Ltd.Trade agreements60831866083187608318860831896083190JamiePeggRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1715)[English]Okay, but if we do that at the federal level, we have to do it not just in Canada, but right across North America. Then, of course, you ship headers into Europe and Australia and Ukraine. How do we make that global by nature?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083191Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1715)[English]The equipment we're building for, the brands that we've mentioned, are U.S. brands, and it's the same combine that's sold in Canada and the U.S. as in Europe and everywhere else. The impact on us means that whatever we do for our development is true for anywhere we sell our product, because it's the same host platform we have to design for. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083192RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1715)[English]Can you do it through engineering standards?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements6083193Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1715)[English]Yes, we could absolutely do it through engineering standards. The European Union recently mandated that all phone chargers use USB-C instead of a whole slew of different proprietary charging ports. In agriculture we already have the ISOBUS standard.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements60831946083195RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince AlbertScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1715)[English]It's used for equipment towed behind a tractor, and when you have a header on the front of a combine, you have additional requirements that the ISOBUS standard doesn't support.There have been extensions, called TIMsthat have been asked for, but the OEMs are resisting that, and they're moving to the ability to close and own the value chain at the exclusion of all other third party participants on their platforms. It's a commercial decision. We know that from the horse's mouth. We've debated it with them, and they're not accepting of changing course, so we're stuck in this. Shy of legislation, there is no recourse for implement manufacturers.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements608319760831986083199RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1715)[English]Then I guess what it comes down to again is regulation, to get it regulated across North America so that we have the ISO standards for you so you can operate that header in front, not just towed behind. Do you see that being any easier with the USMCA, or is it going to make it harder to do things like that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements60832006083201Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1715)[English]I don't have an answer for that. I'm from the engineering department. My task is to make this Honey Bee header work on this combine, and we're running into hurdle after hurdle. What used to be a couple of wires in a hydraulic connection in a mechanical design.... They're going overboard on this, and they're not adding any additional functionality.We've approached it in terms of the anti-competitive behaviour of that. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements60832026083203RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince AlbertScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1715)[English]We had a case with the Competition Bureau. It ran from last February until this February. It closed a week ago. They closed it because there was no enforceable legislation for the nature of our complaint.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements6083205RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1720)[English]Wow. It shows that the Competition Bureau doesn't have the teeth to deal with issues like this, whether they're in Canada or the U.S.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements6083206Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1720)[English]We've worked with Global Affairs, ISED, Canadian Heritage, the Ministry of Agriculture. We've had the round-table discussions. It's a problem looking for a portfolio to live in. No one wants to take ownership of it. It needs to be solved or industry is dead.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements6083207RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1720)[English]Yes, so it's not just you guys who are going to be impacted by this. It's MacDon and a whole variety of people, right?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements6083208Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1720)[English]Right.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements6083209RandyHobackPrince AlbertJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1720)[English]Yes, it's not just us, and I think that's one of the things. It's an opportunity for us, as a country, to be proactive in what we're doing. Technology is driving this, allowing for this to happen. I think we can get in front of it instead of behind it, because the cost of being behind is going to be a whole industry that's been developed over the last 70 years that will just disappear literally in months, if it gets implemented that strongly, and you'll see that right away. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements6083210Scott D.SmithJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Surrey—Newton, Lib.): (1720)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you to the presenters.I will carry on with Mr. Smith.I am an engineer and I am having a difficult time grasping this. When you have machinery designed here in Canada and are supplying it to Japan, India or China, what impacts will this particular agreement have on the engineering perspective? I'm a little confused now.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083214608321560832166083217Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1720)[English]On the engineering side, we have to spend money to develop a parallel system that's a replication of what already exists on the platform we're trying to mount on, and we have a selection between our own design and the OEM controllers and systems.As a specific example, we have to take direct control of the hydraulic pump on a tractor and relate it to the functions of our header to deliver a solution. It's a whole duplication of what already exists on the tractor because they haven't allowed open interoperability, and yet, the farmer wants that tractor and that header to perform the work that needs to be done.The Copyright Act just allows us to do that legally if that exemption is put in place. In today's copyright law, it is illegal for us to go to any direct measure that's less expensive. If we develop into the software of the platform rather than doing a complete parallel system, it's less expensive, it's more plug and play and it uses the existing controls in the tractor, but it's illegal today.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements608321860832196083220SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1720)[English]Is this copyright coming under CUSMA, or was it in place before?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083221Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1720)[English]I think that the concern is that, if we made a change after the signing of CUSMA, there would be the threat of sanctions and tariffs and so on if we then changed our Copyright Act to be in line with the U.S. copyright act. That comes from discussions with Loris Mirella and Global Affairs Canada where we discussed this at length to try to understand the problem. There are openings for side letters, but the retaliation on fines and tariffs could be something that's undesirable.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083222SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1720)[English]CUSMA does not prevent you from.... It's not CUSMA that's creating this problem. It is the copyright regulations that we have had for years, which we probably haven't updated. Is that the issue, or is CUSMA itself the issue? That is what I am trying to grasp.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083223Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1720)[English]My understanding, again, is only what I've been told through discussions and negotiations with the different government ministries here. If we make changes to legislation that relates to advantages or disadvantages in trade in this way, there could be retaliation that is avoidable if the changes are made in front of the signature.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083224SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1720)[English]My next question goes to Northern Cables.You say that CUSMA is going to impact the way you do business as well. Is that true?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832256083226Scott D.SmithToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1720)[English]No. Our concerns are that under CUSMA there are things that could affect our trade. We've enjoyed, in our products, a fairly barrier-free trade for a number of years, and CUSMA won't affect that. We did have some very minimal effect in the tariff spat here two years ago.Our issues are more that as we become an integrated economy, Canada will stand out as not being a fit partner. If we allow subsidized imports.... The U.S. has already identified harmful imports. We have testified at this committee about the effect of Chinese imports on the Canadian market, and now with CUSMA, there's the fact that those imports could be transshipped into the U.S. and cause international problems.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832276083228SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1725)[English]My understanding is that CUSMA will prevent that, because it will tighten up.... The Chinese market will not be able to dump that into the North American market.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083229ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1725)[English]We would enjoy seeing that. We have not seen that. That is one of our concerns, because we are suffering from that right at this very moment.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083230SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonShelleyBaconShelleyBaconShelley-BaconInterventionMr. Shelley Bacon: (1725)[English] One of the issues that has arisen previously in the United States—and we are not trade experts, so pardon us—is that these U.S. HTS codes and Canadian HS codes are quite extensive on the copper side, but on the aluminum side, there are very few codes. As a result of that, they're very broad. Any attempt by the United States to control goods coming into the country is easily circumvented by simply applying a non-needed connector or some other feature to the cable, to allow it to fall into another category. In Canada, now we have a lot of aluminum conductors coming into the country. Everybody knows about it. We've had a number of people go along to the major distributors. In fact, I received a call today from our largest customer for aluminum cables telling us that they're under pressure to start sourcing products overseas where they can buy aluminum conductors below world market prices because they're subsidized by these other countries, and there's nothing we can do to prevent this from entering the country.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832316083232ToddStaffordJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1725)[Translation]Okay.Since you're used to producing a large amount of cable, how do you plan to adapt to the situation?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832406083241ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1725)[English]We are working with our industry association currently to have the Canadian government recognize unfair dumping of aluminum products in Canada in order to level the playing field for Canadian manufacturers.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083242Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1725)[Translation]Could you elaborate on how China is proceeding with the dumping that you mentioned?Could you tell us which sectors are the most affected? You talked about copper and aluminum, but could you elaborate?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832436083244ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1725)[English]The most significant area is aluminum. There are many aluminum products, but in our specific industry, it's electrical cables. We have Chinese sales-people driving down the 401 to distributors, offering to sell products at less than the cost of raw materials. We buy all of our aluminum from the province of Quebec, and all the aluminum that's coming from China is coming from a state-subsidized manufacturer.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083245Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1730)[Translation]When you talk about state-subsidized factories, are you referring to China, meaning the country of origin?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083246ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1730)[English]Yes, exactly.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083247Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1730)[Translation]The next step is the Mexican market, for example. Is that right?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083248ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1730)[English]It does. Right now each country has its own action or situation. The U.S. Department of Commerce just in the last 90 days has fined and levied duties on Chinese cable, but I'm not sure about Mexico, and Canada has not done that.Aluminum industryAnti-dumping dutyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083249Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1730)[Translation]Would you recommend this?Aluminum industryAnti-dumping dutyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083250ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1730)[English] Most certainly. We're working with our industry association right now to that end.Our concern is it's very late for our industry. We are the last Canadian-owned aluminum cable manufacturer. Everybody else has either left, closed or sold out to multinational companies.Aluminum industryAnti-dumping dutyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832516083252Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1730)[Translation]I just want to make sure that I understand, and you've probably said this already, but I want a little reminder. Your cables aren't just made of aluminum. Is that right?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083253ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1730)[English]Yes. We make both copper and aluminum conductor cables.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083254Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1730)[Translation]Is copper also dumped in this way?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements6083255ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1730)[English]Not in our sector of the industry. We make fairly large power cables.The imported cables, probably because of the weight, have been less of an issue than the aluminum cables.I know in the data cable telecom industry, imports have been devastating.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements608325660832576083258Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1730)[Translation]I have a slightly more technical question. What makes them different from one another? Is it simply that certain cables will be used more for making certain tools, that aluminum will be used for some tools and copper will be used for others, or is one technology replacing the other? In other words, is it a matter of sector or a matter of trend?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083259ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1730)[English]There is some overlap. Aluminum is used in large industrial cables for mining applications and power feed for large commercial buildings and condominiums. Aluminum is taking over copper because there's about a three to one price difference and it's lighter to work with and is readily available.In our products aluminum is much less volatile in price so it is becoming more popular so the market is growing for aluminum cables. The cables are made in Canada to a CSA standard, and we have CSA inspectors in our factory every week. I don't know if they go to other factories in other countries and I don't know if they're checked at the ports. CSA walks our factory floor to make sure the cables are being made to standard. Again, we only use North American raw materials so we're very confident in the quality of the raw materials.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832606083261Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): (1730)[English]Thank you, everybody, for appearing here today.I want to continue the conversation with Northern Cables. I'm trying to understand the path of this cable coming to Canada. In the case of auto, there are country-of-origin rules. The concern is that aluminum will be coming to Mexico and then turned into parts in Mexico and then Canada's North American content.Am I hearing correctly from you that it's direct entry in this case, that aluminum is coming from China and it's already manufactured as cable in China? It's competing because it's subsidized manufacturing?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083264608326560832666083267Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1735)[English]That's exactly what's happening.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083268DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaShelleyBaconShelleyBaconShelley-BaconInterventionMr. Shelley Bacon: (1735)[English]That's correct.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083269ToddStaffordDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1735)[English]Independently of what's happening with the trade deal with the United States and Mexico, is this just a question of needing some remedial action by the Canadian government to ensure that a heavily subsidized product isn't coming into Canada and putting people out of business? Is there a concern beyond that that connects directly to the new trade agreement with the United States and Mexico?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements6083270ShelleyBaconToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1735)[English]It's both. We are actively working with our industry association on trade fairness, which is not related to the free trade agreement.The issue is there's so little of a domestic manufacturing base left. We're a small company in Brockville. The rest of the people are owned out of Italy and France, and they won't petition the Canadian government for fair trade. We're the last people left.On the free trade side, our concern related specifically to the agreement is that we would become a point of transshipment and then create an issue. We use Canadian aluminum and make cables and export them to the U.S. If that border closes because of the reputation of products coming from Canada that could hurt our business.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements608327160832726083273DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaShelleyBaconShelley-BaconInterventionMr. Shelley Bacon: (1735)[English]I would add that the way we have to purchase aluminum is we purchase all of our raw materials direct from the mill, in the case of aluminum from Quebec.We have to purchase it. We have to pay the London Metal Exchange price, plus a domestic industry cost called the Midwest premium.When these cables enter Canada and they make a declaration to enter the country, they should be required to enter the country for no less than world fair market value. However, they are entering somehow below world market value. When we go against a competitor and we look at the price, we can barely buy the raw materials at the price level that they're already selling the finished cable for in the country.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements608327560832766083277DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1735)[English]Do you think that if there was action at the border to ensure that cable coming into the country is being sold at fair market value, there's a potential to grow the industry? Do you think we could get some of that back, or is there fierce competition from our continental partners?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCompetitionGovernment billsTrade agreements6083278ShelleyBaconToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1735)[English]Canada has an advantage because a very large portion of the North American aluminum is actually smelted in Canada. There is a domestic industry.There are other plants that make aluminum cable in Canada, but they've been bought by Italian or French companies. There is definitely room. We have no plan to go away. We're planning to expand and if we could sell more aluminum cables both in Canada and the U.S., we would be hiring people tomorrow.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCompetitionGovernment billsTrade agreements60832796083280DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1735)[English]I apologize if you clarified this in your opening statement and I missed it. Does the U.S. welcome Chinese cable into their borders at the same rate as Canada? Do they provide some protection against the subsidized product coming from China?Aluminum industryAnti-dumping dutyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083281ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1735)[English]They did up until.... Then, about 18 months ago, two U.S. domestic manufacturers filed a complaint. About 90 days ago, the U.S. Department of Commerce found in their favour and imposed countervailing duties of between 33% and 165% on Chinese cable. I know anecdotally from being in the U.S. that there are still people getting around it with transshipping. They ship it into Korea. They put little connectors on the end and sell it as an assembly. There are a lot of tricks, but at least their government has recognized the damage to the industry. In our industry, if you search the Encore-Southwire Department of Commerce ruling, there's quite a lot of information available.Aluminum industryAnti-dumping dutyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832826083283DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1735)[English]Then there is action that Canada can take standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the United States on this. We wouldn't be going it alone.Aluminum industryAnti-dumping dutyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083284ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1735)[English]Most certainly, and that's part of this free trade agreement. We would encourage that.We are working with Electro-Federation Canada, which is our recognized industry trade representative. Probably in the next 90 days we will be approaching federal representatives to actually file a complaint.Aluminum industryAnti-dumping dutyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60832856083286DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC): (1740)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.I want to thank the witnesses for being here.We're the party of free trade and we're supportive of getting the agreement moving forward.The challenge we're finding with these testimonies over the last few days is that the minister said she adequately consulted with different sectors, but we're finding out from the aluminum sector that they don't feel they were adequately consulted. Real families are going to be really hurt by this agreement if it's not done right. There are businesses and sectors that are going to be negatively affected.What we want to get from people on the ground, such as yourselves here today, is whether you feel that you were properly consulted. If there's an opportunity for you to give more input into the government on the implementation or the timing of it, to help families and businesses that you're aware of or your own business that may need support, is that something that you feel....First, let me start with Honey Bee. Do you feel you were adequately consulted on this trade agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6083292608329360832946083295608329660832976083298Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJamiePeggScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1740)[English]We weren't consulted until we went chasing for it. We saw news reports about IP terms in the agreement, which raised red flags, but we didn't initially understand what the impact would be.It took some time and research to start to see where this was going to impact us. We started approaching government and the consultations that we had were, to be honest, more deferrals rather than engagement. They were courteous and professional about it, but it doesn't solve our requirements going forward. We are a little concerned that the type of engagement matters as much as if we were engaged. I'll leave it at that, as far as the impact to the company is concerned.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements608330060833016083302JamiePeggJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1740)[English] I want to add to that a little bit, Scott. When we were given the opportunity to speak to a lot of the various associations that we're members of, and also some that we're not members of, quite honestly this was the information that fed back from them: “We don't know. We would love to be able to participate. We would love to be able to work with you, but we really don't know. You as a company know more than we do.” At least that's what they thought. As Scott said, we really took on the initiative about a year and a half ago to look at this and study it, because it was a business risk for us. It was a high red-flag risk. We just took it upon ourselves to get to the bottom of that.The reason Scott is here today and the reason you're getting a lot of the good information is because of the time, effort and energy that has been put in by Scott and by the owners of our company to be able to say, “This is a problem; we don't know.” In terms of the information for you, I haven't seen that coming across my desk to be able to answer that question.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements608330360833046083305Scott D.SmithColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1740)[English]We had an expert on IP and copyright in earlier. This is one of the things that people aren't talking about with this agreement. It kind of floated right underneath, but it's so important right now, especially with technological advances and with the new trade agreements, that we really do have to get it right. If you do have some ideas, I would welcome them. As we move forward, this implementation process will be ongoing. We want to make sure that the government gets it right, so please feel free to continue the dialogue after today. Thank you for being here.Northern Cables, I was alarmed to hear what you had to say. For me, it seems to be a safety issue. With the growth in construction and everything that we're doing here in Canada, with our buy American shutout in this agreement, we want to make sure that Canadian businesses will be competitive across North America. Now, to hear that the Chinese are able to move their product into this country without oversight is troubling. You mentioned the CSA. Maybe we need to change the regulations somewhat so that we know we have good-quality product coming into the Canadian market. Do you think it would be worthwhile with this agreement...? My colleague Mr. Lewis might be talking about this later on, but do you think the CBSA and the inspection authorities need to have more resources to make sure that there will be no workarounds with this new agreement?BordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada Border Services AgencyCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInspections and inspectorsTrade agreements608330660833076083308JamiePeggToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1745)[English]Well, the issue we have, Mr. Carrie, is that definitely we'd want to see any rules enforced, but first we'd want to see what the rules were. Right now we don't know how well the standards are being met on cables that are made to CSA. They come in with a CSA logo printed on them, but I don't know if they—BordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada Border Services AgencyCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInspections and inspectorsTrade agreements6083309ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawaToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1745)[English]We couldn't say that they're counterfeit. We're concerned, but that's kind of libellous, I guess, for us to say of another manufacturer. We're worried about the cost of their raw materials and the cost of the electricity they've used. BordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada Border Services AgencyCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInspections and inspectorsTrade agreements6083312Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai (Surrey Centre, Lib.): (1745)[English]Thank you to both of you. We've been hearing a lot about other industries, but less about non-agricultural industries, so it's refreshing to have you here and to hear your perspective.Northern Cables, I'm trying to figure out your issue here. Is this changed because of the new CUSMA versus the old NAFTA, or is your concern the perhaps subsidized cable that is coming in from offshore? I'm trying to figure out the exact issue. Is it something to do with the actual document of CUSMA, the change in regulations from what it was before to now, or is it really about dumping, or perhaps dumping, of cheap cable from, e.g., Asia or China?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements60833156083316Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1745)[English]We do not have a direct issue with the wording of the agreement. Again, our industry has enjoyed relatively free trade for decades. Our issue is that in this agreement [Technical difficulty—Editor] really just concerns that Canada is not a full partner. If we don't have good trade practices, if we.... This agreement, if this leads into harmonization of standards, I don't think you want your house wired with cable that's made to a Mexican standard. If we're going to harmonize, we have to harmonize [Technical difficulty—Editor] Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDumping of importsGovernment billsTrade agreements60833176083318RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1745)[English]Your concern is that your cable is specified for Canadian standards, and that if they standardize it with American/Mexican standards.... It's the -40°C versus the -21°C standard. I see what you're saying. Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. The other part is the very difficult situation where.... Well, it's not very difficult; you'd have to go to the WTO, and if there were anti-dumping duties on the raw goods coming in, that would be a whole different ball game. I wanted to make sure we were not allowing a new loophole in the U.S. for this to come in. My second question is for Honey Bee. That's a great name. I first thought you were from the very famous Honeybee Centre, which is near my riding. Every school kid ends up attending the Honeybee Centre. We buy our honey from there. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608331960833206083321ToddStaffordJamiePegg//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1745)[English]This is actually a very good success story that you manufacture agriculture farming products that are exported in large numbers worldwide.I was wondering—it may be in our inboxes—if you have given a submission on your exact.... It's a very technical problem that you have in terms of the copyright. Have you given that to our chair? It may not have been translated or I may not have printed it out, but it would be helpful—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60833236083324JamiePeggScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1745)[English]It is submitted.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083325RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1745)[English]Okay.Your problem is that under the U.S. Copyright Law, the U.S. allows somebody in your situation to do the work you do easily there. I'm trying to be very—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60833266083327Scott D.SmithScott D.Smith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1745)[English]—legally. This is the Coles Notes of it. In Canada, if you try to do the same thing, you would not be allowed to do that legally. Has that always been the case and you're now wanting us to change it, or does that change as a result of CUSMA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60833296083330Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1745)[English]It's possibly always been the case, but the nature of the equipment was always straightforward interconnectivity. The one thing that happens when you move from an old agreement to a new agreement is that you modernize it to reflect the realities of modern industry. I think that's what we've missed in this case and in many cases with respect to digital protections on people's products and the ability to circumvent them legally, easily or cost-effectively, rather than intentionally blocking participation.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60833316083332RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1745)[English]When you spoke to people at GAC, Global Affairs, regarding this, and you said you've had extensive talks, where did you come with the fear? Is it just something that the industry fears, that if we match the U.S. rules on copyright, which is what you're asking for, we would somehow get retaliatory action? My “30,000 feet above” analysis would be that the U.S. would not be able to object if we matched the same regulations as theirs. It would be the other way around, if we changed them or made it easier on our side versus the other side.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083333Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1750)[English]I would agree with that to the extent that, if we do the minimum we've requested, which is to be on equal footing with the U.S. with respect to the copyright exemption, we're still on an unequal footing because of the lack of interoperability, that we have to pay to interoperate—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083334RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey CentreScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1750)[English]—at the expense of our innovation spending.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083336RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1750)[English]That's on the interface. That's where you're saying—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083337Scott D.SmithScott D.Smith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1750)[English]—to reverse engineer, and you have to reverse engineer and then make the operating equipment.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083339Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1750)[English]If you take a keyboard and plug it into your computer, it's just one connector and you just plug it in. What we have to do in our industry is take wires from each individual key and open up your computer and take those wires and plug them into each individual key on the keyboard that came with the computer to make it work, rather than just plugging it in once.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60833406083341RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis (Essex, CPC): (1750)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to our witnesses.Northern Cables, I just did a little bit of background reading on your website, and I note three specific lines in there, so my questions are actually around the lines. The first one states that Northern Cables has had sharp price increases to aluminum and steel. Will the rules of origin or other elements of the new NAFTA impact these prices further? Do you know that?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements608334660833476083348Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1750)[English]We don't believe so. There's a good domestic market for aluminum, and we actually have copper smelted in Montreal that we buy. Steel, galvanized steel used in cable, is not available in Canada and we have had.... In the tariffs that we had a couple of years ago there was an issue, but with free trade, we should not have any issues with that.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements6083349ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1750)[English]You don't expect there to be any issues, then, with regard to your customers and what they pay for it today going forward.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements6083350ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1750)[English]No, it would be the same for all of our competitors. It would be a level playing field.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements6083351ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1750)[English]Further on, it states that you are expanding and trying to find new markets in the United States. Can you describe a few examples of those new markets?Aluminum industryBusiness developmentC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083352ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1750)[English] Well, we make industrial and commercial cables. We do not make residential cables. Obviously, commercial construction in the metropolitan areas is very strong. We've established seven warehouses in the U.S. that we ship to customers from, covering mostly the eastern seaboard down into Texas, because freight is a big issue for large cables. We are slowly expanding into the Midwest, into the oilfields of the Dakotas. We make a lot of industrial cables for mining. There's a good mining market in Nevada. Those are all opportunities for us.Aluminum industryBusiness developmentC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60833536083354ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1750)[English]Are there any concerns and/or fears that the new CUSMA—or the new NAFTA, if you will—will impact the ability of companies such as yours to find new markets either in the U.S. or abroad? Is there any concern?Aluminum industryBusiness developmentC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083355ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1750)[English]Our only concern is that it's an opportunity for us if Canada participates as an equal partner, but Mexico is an untapped market for us.Aluminum industryBusiness developmentC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083356ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1750)[English]That's great to know.I have a final question for you.As my colleague, Mr. Carrie, mentioned earlier regarding the CBSA, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but to date I have seen nothing in the new CUSMA that is going to give the CBSA more training and/or more funds and/or more people.My riding is Essex down by Windsor, which is the busiest international border crossing in North America. I'm cautiously optimistic that it's going to be a smooth transition, but I have my reservations on that front, which goes to my question.I notice here that Northern Cables states it experiences seasonal markets. Will the timing of the ratification and the need for effective implementation impact those seasonal markets?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60833576083358608335960833606083361ToddStaffordShelleyBaconShelleyBaconShelley-BaconInterventionMr. Shelley Bacon: (1750)[English]No.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083362ChrisLewisEssexToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1750)[English] We don't expect it to, no.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083363ShelleyBaconShelleyBaconShelleyBaconShelley-BaconInterventionMr. Shelley Bacon: (1750)[English]It's more weather related. One never knows what kind of fall and winter one is going to have. That has a tendency to either increase or decrease the amount of construction one can do given the weather conditions. That's the seasonality to it. However, we don't expect it to affect our trade, no.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60833646083365ToddStaffordChrisLewisEssexShelleyBaconShelley-BaconInterventionMr. Shelley Bacon: (1755)[English]I'd like to add one comment about CBSA, if I could, Mr. Lewis. We were under the impression, perhaps rightly or wrongly, that if a material were going to enter the country, it should be entering the country at recognized world market prices. Simply, if I were to purchase a vehicle for somebody and go to the licensing bureau and say that I only paid $1 for the car, they wouldn't permit that. They would say, “Well, you didn't pay $1 for that car. Here's the fair market value. You're going to pay tax on that.” Similarly with our industry, cables should not be able to enter this country below fair market value because it is not fair trade practice. We cannot compete against a country such as China, which subsidizes its industry.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements608336860833696083370ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1755)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd be happy to continue the conversation with you gentlemen from Northern Cables.First, it's a pleasure to hear how proud you are to be sourcing your aluminum from Quebec, so thank you for that, and also to speak with you this morning about your very constructive comments. I've taken note of the concern regarding the importation of aluminum at fair market value from other countries, and of the complaint of the United States manufacturer . I'd be happy to take a follow-up meeting with you, as I'm sure my colleagues on the other side would as well.I also heard you mention, and read in your description, that you have increased the number of manufacturing facilities and distribution centres. I believe you have three manufacturing facilities and six distribution centres now. How many employees does Northern Cables have at the moment?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608337560833766083377608337860833796083380Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1755)[English]We have 250 employees.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083381RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1755)[English]That's fantastic.Where is your customer base principally?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60833826083383ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1755)[English]It's primarily in North America. We export quite a bit to the U.S., and some of our industrial cables end up in Latin America and the Caribbean.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083384RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1755)[English]I heard you say that Mexico is an untapped market for you. Do you feel that the new CUSMA would allow you to perhaps export and find new customers in Mexico?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083385ToddStaffordToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1755)[English]Definitely. We hope it will open some doors. We actually investigated that prior to CUSMA. However, we hope that this agreement will make it that much easier, and as we grow, participate with Export Development Canada into the U.S. We are told that Canadian products are very highly regarded in Mexico, even more so than American-made products.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083386RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1755)[English]Thank you very much. I would ask one more technical question of you at Northern Cables. I'm not very well versed in the harmonization standards that you refer to. You mentioned that in order to better support manufacturers such as you, we would need to look at the CSA and UL. Could you help me understand what you're referring to?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements60833906083391Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekToddStaffordToddStaffordTodd-StaffordInterventionMr. Todd Stafford: (1755)[English]Electrical power cables in Canada have to be sold as meeting a CSA standard, basically for safety and quality. In the U.S. it's UL, or Underwriters Laboratories, which does those specs. We participate with the Standards Council of Canada and our industry federations. We sit on standards committees and there is a real drive, as there has been for decades, to harmonize and globalize standards. Our concern is that harmonizing is not necessarily standardization but more of a race to the bottom. This trade agreement may add fuel to that fire.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSetting of standardsTrade agreements6083392RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1755)[English]I see. Thank you.I'll turn now to our friends at Honey Bee. Thank you for making the trip to Ottawa. I also saw in the description of Honey Bee quite an impressive growth of your company recently, 100,000 square feet of production and warehousing in Saskatchewan.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements608339360833946083395ToddStaffordJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1755)[English]Yes. Engineering, as you're hearing, is the primary thing. Development is what we need to focus on. A few years ago, as the company grew, it outgrew the footprint we had so we've added a complete R and D building to that, to be able to work through that, understanding that innovation is the key for our products moving forward. Really, what we're asking for here today is a chance to be able to share that innovation with the rest of the world. There are lots of other companies that are doing the exact same thing we are.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083396RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1800)[English]I understand you export worldwide, but where are the majority of your exports at the moment? Are they going to the United States?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083397JamiePeggJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1800)[English]The United States is the largest, at 33%. We have a large contingent that goes into Australia. We also have European markets, Kazakhstan, a little bit into Russia, Ukraine, some markets that we're developing there. We've had a strong focus in the European Union as well.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083398RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1800)[English]That's very interesting, but I could imagine that at 33%, keeping that border open and flowing with the United States is important to Honey Bee. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083399JamiePeggJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1800)[English]It's very important for us. Four years ago we made a company effort, a company strategy, to be able to grow the United States market, grow it through the grain belts and those areas, as we had more factory space to be able to produce our product. That's one of the key markets we're attracting and having a lot of success in.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083400RachelBendayanOutremontJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1800)[Translation]I have a quick question for the people from Honey Bee Manufacturing.Your website says that you have customers around the world. Is that right? Do you conduct business with every country in the world? In other words, your market isn't limited to America. Is that right?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60834036083404Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1800)[English] Our market is not limited to the Americans. We know that in the agricultural industry with the different impacts that can take place politically, weather-wise, otherwise, that we need to diversify the markets that we're involved in. I've just highlighted that we've focused on the European Union. We've also focused on the United States. We have product in South America as well as Africa as those markets start to emerge and start to have a need for our product. So it is a global company. It's really where the harvest of grain products takes place.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083405Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1800)[Translation]Does CUSMA affect the number and diversification of partners?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083406JamiePeggJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1800)[English]I think one thing we need to highlight is the power unit that we put our equipment on. The majority of the combines that are built are manufactured out of the United States, or manufactured out of the U.S. and then transported to different parts of the world. That is critically important to the development of our headers and how we do that going forward, which is why, again, we highlight the importance and the significance of the law we are talking about.I think from there, there are other countries that do it. There is a lot of freedom today that we see with some of the other countries we work with, but I think, looking forward, it's not going to be a whole lot of a different situation in dealing with those countries as we try to create free trade or as we develop those agreements moving forward. Again, I think what we're proposing, what we're stating here is trying to be proactive, trying to ensure that the industry that we've worked on for over 100 years in Canada to develop, to grow, is there, is thriving in our economy, and is creating an opportunity for Canada to grow. That's what we're looking for here.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60834076083408Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1800)[English] I would add that when it comes to the harvest equipment we manufacture, the two main players in the world on that are both Canadian companies—ourselves and MacDon in Manitoba.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083409JamiePeggJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1800)[English]Thank you very much. I was listening and the time snuck up on me.In your earlier remarks, you referenced that the negative consequences for industry would follow rather quickly. I'm trying to understand exactly why that is and how that works, and if it's just that the turnover of equipment is just that frequent and essential to the operation of the industry. How does that work? Why would those consequences be felt in a matter of months as opposed to a matter of years?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60834126083413Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1805)[English]The issue boils down to technical evolution. We're moving away from simple and robust means of interconnection and, without adding significant functionality, adding a lot of technical complexity. In the same way that Apple has unique ways of locking out third party participation on their platforms, it's clear that OEMs, equipment manufacturers, are going down the same road. Because of our involvement inside the OEM operations with respect to co-engineered products, we're made aware of where they're going. We've already worked on a few platforms in the last year or two that have blocked us.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements60834146083415DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1805)[English]Is it that in working with one particular company you just can't get the equipment to do the applications you need or is it that it just becomes really expensive to use the additional components from the same company?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083416Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1805)[English]In the case of a simple windrower like a swather, where you're just cutting the crop and laying it down, it's pretty straightforward to reverse engineer or design a parallel system. In the case of a combine, where there's so much integration between what the head does and the rest of the machine, it really needs to be an integrated solution. Reverse engineering that would be an absolute nightmare and, to be honest, beyond economic viability.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements6083417DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1805)[English]Yes, that's perfect.Mr. Pegg and Mr. Smith, thank you so much for coming here all the way from Frontier, Saskatchewan. What do you need from lawmakers to have your business continue successfully?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements608342460834256083426Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJamiePeggScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1805)[English]From my desk, as the engineering guy who's responsible for making those adaptations, I don't want to go to jail doing it. For peace of mind, at the minimum is the inclusion of the exemptions that our American counterparts enjoy and bringing that to our legislation on copyright, but I think that in a major way this is substantially a shortcoming to what will be required very soon. The digital infusion into the agricultural sector for the purpose of digital locks and keys and lockout, which is basically technology tethering and which we're seeing everywhere across a wide range of products outside of ag—consumer, everything—in order to control the value chain is intentional and explicit in preventing short-line agricultural manufacturers, mining equipment manufacturers and construction and forestry manufacturers from participating on OEM platforms. If that's allowed to proceed, we're facing a much more serious thing, where you'd have the choice of a single brand or a single colour and you're not allowed to deviate from that, and all of those are made in the States and the Canadian side of it goes away.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawFarm equipmentGovernment billsTrade agreements608342860834296083430JamiePeggMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1805)[English]Are you aware of any precedents with add-ons in the auto sector? I'm thinking of things like remote car starters or car security alarms or that sort of thing. Are those industries running into the same problems that you are?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements6083431Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1805)[English]Yes and no.The interoperability aspect with automotive aftermarket is quite a bit different, because we're not asking to operate our stereo system from the seat controls or some weird thing or whatever to make stuff do the feature we want. We're asking for the same functionality, but access to the systems required to achieve that.As I said, today we have that. You get in, put your hand on the stick, push the buttons and our head does what it's supposed to do, even though it's on a different brand of combine. Going forward with the digital systems, they're taking that away. Pushing that button sends an encrypted and digital signal down that expects to see a control box and computer on our header that knows the language and knows the encryption keys and allows us to operate. We're already seeing it in the equipment side. Let's say you have a bucket on an excavator and it's on, say, a Cat, and you have a Kubota and you want to move it from one to the other. Where there's an RFID tag on that dumb piece of steel, with no hydraulics, no electrical, nothing, if you take that Kubota one and put it on a Cat, the Cat doesn't see the RFID tag it wants to see, and it says, “I'm not running my equipment here today.” C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsTrade agreements6083432608343360834346083435MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1805)[English] Okay.Earlier in your presentation, you mentioned the Competition Act. What were the shortcomings of the Competition Act that did not meet your needs?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCompetitionCompetition ActGovernment billsTrade agreements60834366083437Scott D.SmithScott D.SmithScott D.SmithScottD--SmithInterventionMr. Scott D. Smith: (1805)[English]The shortcoming is that there was a lack of possibility, as I understood it. Again, we're not into the details of the investigation that they made. We fed in the information and our concerns, but it was expressed to us that there was a lack of legislation and support for solving this problem today on the legislative books of Canada.We are working with ISED and the copyright team on the review of the Copyright Act and the things they can do there. Their indication is that this is a process that's very long—it may be 10 years out—and that's not going to work for us.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCompetitionCompetition ActGovernment billsTrade agreements60834386083439MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—WascanaJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1810)[English]It is really important that we understand when we talk about that—because the competition question has been brought up—that they recognize there is a problem there. They recognize that not only are we going to have a problem, but that all these other short-line industry people are going to have a problem as well. What they are saying is that we don't have anything to stick it with. That's what we're looking for. The opportunity came to present to this group here, to present on an act that we've reopened again, and this is our opportunity to be pro-Canadian and to really watch for an industry that's been really strong for it. That's the message we want to bring.I'll repeat it over and over again. It is critically important and not just for Honey Bee. There are others that don't see this yet, but they're going to see it very soon. We want to be on top of that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCompetitionCompetition ActGovernment billsTrade agreements60834446083445Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1810)[English]This is, again, for Honey Bee. A few years back when David Anderson was your MP, he was talking about labour issues that you were having in Frontier and how there were farmers in Montana who would love to come across the border to work for you, but there was the issue of getting them across the border.Do you see anything in the USMCA that may alleviate those concerns, or is it actually a concern anymore in light of all the layoffs and what's going on in Alberta?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour force mobilityTrade agreements608344760834486083449Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1810)[English]That's a great question. I worked on that intimately, and our solution at that time was to go overseas to bring future Canadians into our workplace. That was done very successfully. We want to highlight that. We have a lot of people who have come. The dynamic of our community has changed significantly. We have a Filipino cultural club there and other cultural clubs—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour force mobilityTrade agreements6083450RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1810)[English]You may have to explain how big Frontier is for the other members so that they can understand this.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour force mobilityTrade agreements6083451JamiePeggJamiePeggJamiePeggJamie-PeggInterventionMr. Jamie Pegg: (1810)[English]The best way to describe how big Frontier is would be the example we use so that we have some recognition of this. The nearest stop light, the nearest Tim Hortons, the nearest Starbucks or McDonald's is 160 kilometres away.There are people who really enjoy the freedoms that are offered there, the differences that are there. It's a great opportunity for the right person. That's one of the great things about Canada that we have here, that we have those opportunities.To come back to your question, Mr. Hoback, in terms of the United States agreement, one of the things we struggle with occasionally is to get experts there, to get experts into Frontier, whether it be around our MRP system, the design around that, or.... We had an expert who worked with us. Over the course of the last few years, that was rejected because they felt that it was taking a job away from a Canadian, which wasn't true. The difficulty of bringing that person in had a big impact on our company because we were having a lot of success with the computer writing and what needed to be done wasn't there.In terms of the new act, I'm not familiar enough with it to be able to answer that question, but I think that behind it we hope there are possibilities to bring those people across the border. We're 10 miles away. There are people who would love to come and be part of that workplace. It's a huge recruiting effort to bring people in. That's one of the privileges and also difficulties of living where we do and doing business where we do.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour force mobilityTrade agreements6083452608345360834546083455RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince AlbertLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout (Executive Director, World Trade Centre Toronto, Toronto Region Board of Trade): (1830)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair.I would like to express our thanks to the Standing Committee on International Trade for allowing us to address you today.My name is Leigh Smout. I'm the executive director of the World Trade Centre Toronto at the Toronto Region Board of Trade.I'd like to make a few comments.Canada is a trading nation. Because of our small population, we're much like a small island nation. We cannot grow that international trade. Trade results in three main things, prosperity, growth and jobs, and it's as true for any small business as it is for our geographically large, but small population nation. Without international trade, Canada cannot accomplish any of these objectives. One in five jobs depends on trade. In Ontario alone that is 1.3 million jobs, and the U.S. and Mexico are our closest major trading partners with a geographic connection that is unique to Canada. The U.S. alone is responsible for buying 75% of our exported goods and services. We are a highly important partner to the U.S., but we are far less important to them than they are to us, and this puts us at a disadvantage in negotiations with them.Our next closest trading partner, China, is not even 5% of our exports. The World Trade Centre trade services arm of the Toronto Region Board of Trade has two mandates: grow Canadian businesses through international trade and help Canadian businesses diversify their markets away from the U.S.Both mandates are a long game. Our trade accelerator program, TAP, helps SMEs from coast to coast develop their export plans and connects them to all the resources that can help them trade, including the trade commissioner service, Export Development Canada and Business Development Canada, as well as the private sector experts in legal, tax, process, finance, etc.An example is Core LED. They're a company that came through our very first TAP back in 2015. They were happily doing three million dollars' worth of business in retrofitting places with LED lighting and they didn't see the need to grow their business. They had enough sales, but they didn't see how they had the capacity to operate in larger numbers. Through TAP they met RBC and BDC, which were able to help fund the growth of their production capacity.Not having any thought of international trade to service their sales domestically, they decided that since they had the capacity they would take a look south of the border. They found two large $5-million contracts. One was retrofitting a military base, the kinds of things they had never thought of. They were helping [Technical difficulty—Editor] at that point. When they came to talk to us a year after the TAP, they said that taking a look at international trade had changed the view of their business. A year later, from being a $3 million revenue company, they were going to do $12 million that year, and they expected to do $20 million the following year because they had decided they would look further afield than the U.S., and then $50 million eventually. International trade, including starting in the U.S., has completely changed the path of that business. Without our free trade agreements, they would not have had the competitive advantage they had in the United States.Although TAP companies focus a much improved 70% of their efforts into markets other than the U.S., and we will shortly graduate our one-thousandth company, this can only make a small dent in our dependence upon the U.S. The Board of Trade has over 13,000 business members and our community tells us they need CUSMA in place. We need it ratified by Canada, as has already happened in Mexico and the U.S.It is our understanding that the business community feels it has been consulted to a degree that's unparalleled in free trade negotiations. In developing the details our voices have been heard.Although our sense is that the new agreement may not be as favourable to Canada as NAFTA, we nonetheless think it is a much better situation than living with the truly destructive results of a lapsed NAFTA . We also worry about current U.S. political volatility. Therefore, we're hopeful and we respectfully request that all political parties see the value and necessity of ratifying CUSMA as soon as it can be accomplished.In our own efforts to continue to break down barriers for businesses of all sizes, we submitted a proposal to the Department of Finance for the unilateral elimination of 101 low-yield tariffs. That can save businesses $773 million in duty and compliance costs every year in two priority sectors: manufacturing and clean tech. The real cost is compliance; it's not the tariffs. The tariffs are not netting a great deal of money for the Canadian government, but compliance is costing companies significantly.(1835) Overall, import tariffs cost both Canadian consumers and businesses, harming our nation's competitiveness by increasing input costs and drowning Canadian businesses in red tape. Our proposal identifies several compelling reasons for unilateral tariff elimination, demonstrates international leadership in reducing trade barriers, cuts costs and red tape for business, boosts competitiveness and economic growth, supports growing industries, and reprioritizes border resources, all the things we need in our future agreements, for instance, and in CUSMA as well.In addition, once we have CUSMA ratified, the government needs to support organizations like our own across Canada to ensure that we have the capacity to help Canadian businesses understand the changes from the NAFTA rules, with which they are familiar. A focused and concentrated effort should be undertaken so that the uptake of the agreement is not skewed in favour of our trading partners in the same way that has occurred with the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement , CETA, with the EU, such that European countries have grown their exports to Canada much more rapidly than Canadian companies have grown our exports to Europe, leading to a trade imbalance and leaving us to play catch-up.Thank you again for allowing the World Trade Centre to address this illustrious committee today. I look forward to any questions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsToronto Region Board of TradeTrade agreements60834656083466608346760834686083469608347060834716083472608347360834746083475608347660834776083478608347960834806083481Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull (Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business): (1840)[English][Witness spoke in Ojibwa and provided the following text:]Aanii, Tabatha Bull n'indignikaaz, Nipissing n'indoonjibaa, Migizi Ndoodem.[Witness provided the following translation:]Hello. My name is Tabatha Bull. I am from Nipissing First Nation, and I belong to the Eagle Clan.[English]Thank you, Madam Chair and all the distinguished members of the committee.I want to begin by acknowledging the Algonquin peoples for hosting this meeting on their ancestral and unceded lands.I am the chief operating officer for the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business, CCAB. I'm honoured to speak here on behalf of our association regarding Bill C-4.CCAB supports corporations and governments to engage directly with indigenous businesses so that they may take advantage of mutually beneficial opportunities. Our work is backed by data-driven research, recognized by the OECD as the gold standard on indigenous business in Canada, on the barriers and opportunities for indigenous businesses, business capacity and supply chain analysis that has informed both government and corporate policy.Through our research, programming and events, CCAB has earned the confidence of both indigenous and non-indigenous businesses in Canada, established a leading procurement platform and achieved meaningful results for indigenous companies over the past 37 years.Our research work has led to a threefold increase in corporate commitments to improve indigenous relations and procurement—over $100 million in provincial government funding commitments to indigenous businesses.We currently have close to 1,000 indigenous and non-indigenous business members working toward a more prosperous and diverse Canadian economy.We were very pleased to be invited to participate as a member of the Global Affairs indigenous working group on trade.We were also extremely pleased to see the involvement of National Chief Perry Bellegarde in the renegotiation of NAFTA and in the invitation to us here today.As a result of this inclusive approach to trade negotiation, this work resulted in the most inclusive international trade agreement for indigenous peoples to date.I echo the comments by National Chief Perry Bellegarde, when he testified on June 18, 2019, and those of Judy Whiteduck and Risa Schwartz, when they testified on February 20, 2020, that this agreement is not perfect but to date it is the best we have in Canada.With the ratification of the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement, we would take a step to make international trade more aware of and more equitable in its treatment of indigenous peoples, and especially indigenous women entrepreneurs.The aboriginal trade interest is not presumed but instead strongly asserted through the positive economic trends that have been observed by the CCAB within the aboriginal private economy.In 2016, aboriginal peoples contributed over $30 billion to Canada's GDP, $12 billion of which was generated by aboriginal businesses.Through trade agreements and treaties, the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business finds immense value in promoting and supporting the distinct demand of the aboriginal private economy to facilitate and substantiate economic growth.By reducing barriers and creating fair, equitable and inclusive trade conditions, the aboriginal private economy will be provided with equal footing to Canadian and North American business and service providers through trade exclusions, intellectual property and provisions and by expanding labour mobility policies to honour the unique barriers and operations of aboriginal service providers and enterprises.With the levelling of the economic playing field through targeted trade policies, aboriginal enterprises and service providers can benefit from increased market access, procurement and investment opportunities.Importantly for the CCAB, we believe that with specific preferences to carve out procurement benefits and other opportunities for indigenous businesses and service providers, there is also a promise of future co-operation to enhance indigenous businesses.Procurement is of interest for the CCAB, as our research has found that indigenous businesses can supply 24.2% of the goods and services purchased by the federal government annually.We appreciate that the Government of Canada has committed, through the mandate letter to the Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada, to have at least 5% of federal contracts awarded to businesses managed and led by indigenous peoples. This target is achievable, and the CCAB wants and is willing to work with the Government of Canada to meet and exceed this target.CCAB believes that trade with the United States is directly tied to the future economic success for aboriginal business and hence directly tied to the prosperity of indigenous peoples across Canada.Our research with Global Affairs Canada showed that indigenous businesses are twice as likely as non-indigenous businesses to export. Of indigenous companies, 24% export today, which means more than 13,000 indigenous firms are exporting. As well, indigenous women are more likely to export than indigenous men.While the Canada-United States-Mexico agreement is a new example of the difference it makes to engage with indigenous people at an early stage, there must be increased opportunities for participation of indigenous peoples not only in international trade negotiations in decision-making as per UNDRIP but also in trade missions.(1845) Programming and support need to be provided to indigenous communities and leaders to build capacity in trade to ensure that their participation is meaningful and resourced appropriately. The CCAB looks forward to continuing our important work on the Global Affairs indigenous working group to support the inclusion of language in Canada's current and future trade agreement negotiations, including with Mercosur and the Pacific alliance countries. The CCAB also welcomes the opportunity to be more actively involved in the planning and execution of trade missions to increase indigenous exports. Thank you for the time. Meegwetch.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Council for Aboriginal BusinessDumping of importsGovernment billsGovernment contractsIndigenous languages in proceedingsIndigenous peoplesMexicoOjibwePrivate sectorTrade agreements6083484608348560834866083487608348860834896083490608349160834926083493608349460834956083496608349760834986083499608350060835016083502608350360835046083505608350660835076083508608350960835106083511608351260835136086498Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson (President and Chief Executive Officer, Greater Vancouver Board of Trade): (1845)[English]Madam Chair, I would like to thank the committee for the invitation to speak and for all of the hard work you are doing to make this important agreement as robust as it possibly can be. My name is Bridgitte Anderson. I am the president and CEO of the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade.I would also like to recognize that we are on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people. For over 130 years, the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade has worked on behalf of our region's business community and our over 5,000 members to promote prosperity through commerce, trade and free enterprise. Our mission is to work in the interests of our members to promote, enhance and facilitate the development of the region as a Pacific centre for trade, commerce and travel. British Columbia's economy relies on its trading relationship with the U.S. Our natural resources, including lumber, oil and gas, and metals and minerals, are some of our largest exports. The value of B.C.'s top five exports to the U.S. is $22 billion a year. A wide spectrum of industries benefit from our trading relationships in two B.C. examples. B.C.'s tourism industry employed 138,000 people in 2017. It generated $5.4 billion in export revenue, an increase of 7% from 2016.Film and television is another bright spot in our economy that is experiencing rapid growth. B.C. is now the third-largest motion picture production hub in North America. The sector's GDP increased at an average annual rate of 15% between 2010 and 2018, five times the economy-wide pace. The creative sector contributes over $6 billion to the B.C. economy, with a workforce of nearly 110,000.B.C. has the most diversified trading relationships in Canada, but the U.S. is still our largest trading partner. As of 2017, just over 50% of our exports in goods went to the U.S., followed by China, Japan, South Korea, the EU and India. Our country is a small trading nation that relies on access to other markets. Our economy depends on trade and on the trade agreements that help bring our Canadian goods to international markets. International trade is especially important to B.C., where we experience a double benefit from trade from selling Canadian goods and from moving the goods by means of our gateway sector, including port, rail, air and road. Our gateway sector in greater Vancouver alone contributes $20 billion to the national GDP, supports nearly 185,000 jobs and contributes $2.4 billion to the Canadian government in taxes.The Greater Vancouver Board of Trade supports the ratification of CUSMA and the passage of Bill C-4 and offers the following reasons for support and recommendations for the committee to consider.First is certainty. The new agreement will bring much needed certainty to Canada's business community. Over the last few years, global trade has been disrupted by the rise of protectionist measures, particularly from our most important trading partner. The uncertainty has only been intensified by the protests and blockades we've seen across the country over the last few weeks. Shutting down rail access, roads, ports and bridges has hurt and continues to hurt the livelihoods of thousands of people, communities and virtually every sector of our economy. In greater Vancouver alone, right now there are 60 to 70 ships sitting in port waiting to move Canadian goods. It will take weeks, if not months, to recover. In addition, the effects that coronavirus, or COVID-19, will have on our small trading economy are still yet to be seen. These examples emphasize the importance of a predictable supply chain. In light of these unfortunate and disruptive circumstances, our businesses need certainty so they can take the lead and propel the economy forward through commerce and trade. Above anything else, CUSMA would avoid the breakdown of our trade relationship with our most important trading partners and thereby help to remove much of the uncertainty facing Canadian businesses.CUSMA will continue to guarantee tariff-free market access to our most important trading partner, to provide preferential access to commercial opportunities and to allow our businesses to sell more goods. This means more business, more jobs and the movement of more goods. When we move more goods across borders, our businesses can thrive. Ratifying CUSMA in a timely manner to lock in guaranteed market access with the U.S. is more important than ever in light of recent claims that suggest the U.S. is considering raising its WTO-bound tariff rates.If implemented properly, CUSMA will unlock vast potential for greater Vancouver and Canadian businesses to compete effectively for jobs. These benefits can only be achieved if there is a similar amount of attention paid to non-tariff-related trade barriers. (1850)CUSMA includes provisions on customs administration and trade facilitation to standardize and modernize customs procedures throughout North America to facilitate the free flow of goods, but we cannot stop there. We recommend that government continue supporting and working with industry on initiatives such as the beyond preclearance initiative, which is doing important work around ensuring Canada's gateway cities can build improved processes and border policies to take full advantage of CUSMA. We also recommend that government continue with initiatives to reduce and remove red tape, and regulatory burdens more broadly, to help business thrive. There is a growing perception in Canada that it is difficult to get things done, especially with jurisdictions in the U.S. that are routinely removing barriers and making access for business easier and simpler. Efforts like this will help ensure we increase competitiveness. This brings me to my third point. The new agreement will help underpin North Americans' competitive advantage through its new chapter on competitiveness and its chapter on good regulatory practices. The preferential market access and integration with the American and Mexican markets will open opportunities for growth and foster robust supply chains and fair competition that will sharpen the competitive edge of Canadian businesses.The fourth point is that the new CUSMA modernizes NAFTA by including provisions for digital trade, which reflects the rise of e-commerce and other aspects of the digital economy that didn't exist when NAFTA was negotiated. In addition, CUSMA includes language on protecting gender and indigenous peoples' rights, which is an economic imperative.The provisions for digital trade and cross-data flows included in CUSMA are based on the provisions in our most modern trade agreement, the CPTPP. This makes CUSMA a trade agreement of the 21st century and prepares us for what will become an increasing part of our economy.CUSMA supports Canadian SMEs that want to tap into international markets. The World Trade Centre Vancouver finds that 95% of SMEs that go through its trade accelerator program choose the U.S. as one of their first export markets. The U.S. is particularly important for SMEs for its size and its geographical and cultural proximity. Many Canadian SMEs use the U.S. as their export beta market where they test and grow their export capacity before targeting other markets.Last, we recommend the following keys for success. First, B.C. is the largest Canadian exporter of softwood lumber to the U.S. As you all know, it is a challenging time for B.C.'s forest industry, which supports approximately 140,000 direct and indirect jobs. Thousands of jobs have been lost to mill closures and layoffs due in large part to high tariffs. Bringing CUSMA into force will ensure that the continued chapter 10 protections are available to the B.C. forest industry as it stands up for fairness and ensures that the trade of softwood lumber can continue to support B.C. jobs. We recommend that the government continue working towards achieving a negotiated softwood lumber agreement and defending the industry against any potential trade sanctions brought by the U.S.Second, there is a critical need for continued investments in trade-enabling infrastructure in Canada, such as container capacity at terminals. In addition, greater Vancouver has a unique challenge in availability of industrial land to support trade-enabling activities. Our vacancy rate is at a record low of 1.2%. Collaboration and leadership is required to ensure growth of our region.As the Canadian economy becomes more weighted towards services, we should consider a plan to grow Canada's service exports, including making it easier for professionals to work across borders. Our 2018 regional export framework report shows that global demand for service sectors will continue to grow. Ninety-eight per cent of all businesses in B.C. are small businesses. In order to leverage the benefits of trade, we need a plan to support small businesses as they start to export and grow their exports.Finally, another important item will be the uniform regulations, which is the fine print of the agreement, including the details that companies must follow to facilitate trade on a daily basis. Businesses are eagerly awaiting these details, especially given the 90-day implementation phase. We hope they can be made available as soon as possible.I would like to conclude by imparting a sense of urgency to the committee to lock in the benefits I have listed. We recognize that no trade agreement is perfect and that no trade agreement is made without compromise. We support the passage of CUSMA and hope all parties vote in favour of ratification.Thank you for your time today and for the opportunity to appear before the committee. I welcome any questions you may have.British ColumbiaBureaucracyC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCompetitionCOVID-19Customs and exciseCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDigital economyEpidemicsFilm industryFreight transportationGovernment billsGreater Vancouver Board of TradeInfrastructureLabour force mobilityMarket accessProtestsSetting of standardsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesSoftwood lumber industryTourismTrade agreements6083516608351760835186083519608352060835216083522608352360835246083525608352660835276083528608352960835306083531608353260835336083534608353560835366083537608353860835396083540608354160835426083543608354460835456083546Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1855)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Ms. Bull, in your opinion, what are the main barriers to opportunities for indigenous businesses and business persons?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60835506083551Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1855)[English]Based on our research, the biggest barrier currently is access to finance. For small and medium enterprises that want to work near their community, it is access to skilled individuals. There is infrastructure, as well. I know there is a movement for broadband infrastructure. That will relieve a lot of that existing barrier.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements6083552MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1855)[English] How are these barriers alleviated with the new NAFTA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements6083553TabathaBullTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1855)[English]Working on co-operation for small and medium-sized enterprises, and looking to move on new policies and programs for co-operation, specifically naming indigenous people as one of the minority groups for small and medium-sized enterprises, I believe gives us an opportunity to look at what those barriers are, and based on that research, to develop polices and programs that will enable them to trade.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements6083554MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1855)[English]Thank you.Mr. Smout, you mentioned the 101 additional tariffs that you would like eliminated unilaterally. Can you give us some examples of these tariffs that it would be beneficial to eliminate? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements60835556083556TabathaBullLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1855)[English]I don't have a lot of the details with me, but we submitted a proposal to the government.They're ones that are low yield, in the sense that they are of little use, and they're in the low percentages, 1% and so on. They're not necessarily tied to free trade agreements.The challenge is that there's a compliance cost, the effort it takes to manage compliance with these tariffs, which costs the companies a significant amount of money. If it costs them $2,000 in tariffs, which is a small return to the government, it will cost them another $5,000 to $7,000 in compliance costs.I regret that I don't have the list of them with me, but we have proposed 101 specifically within those two areas of clean tech in these essentially emerging markets or sectors.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6083557608355860835596083560MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1855)[English]Are they in emerging markets or sectors—which one, or is it both?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6083561LeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1855)[English][Technical difficulty—Editor] emerging market sectors. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6083562MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1855)[English]Okay.In terms of these tariffs, are they still with the United States and Mexico, or are they with other countries?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements60835636083564LeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1855)[English]They're mostly with other countries. This is a unilateral removal of tariffs, regardless of whether or not we have an FTA. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6083565MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1855)[English]Off the top of your head, do you know which countries those are?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6083566LeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1855)[English]I'm sorry, and I really apologize. but I don't, off the top of my head.I can tell you that they're not CETA, CPTPP or NAFTA countries.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements60835676083568MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1855)[English]All right. We will cross those bridges when we get to free trade agreements with those other countries, I guess.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6083571LeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1855)[English]Our point is not to wait for a free trade agreement on these ones that don't yield enough to the government but that cost our companies a lot, if they're exporting from Africa, for instance, to the Middle East, and so on.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsTrade agreements6083572MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1855)[English]Thank you to all who have come here. I want to particularly thank Ms. Anderson, from British Columbia, the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade president and CEO. I'll go to you first.It seems that the effectiveness of the gateway investments in making our ports, our highways and our rail links more efficient have made British Columbia, particularly the Lower Mainland, a big hub for logistics for transit. According to your numbers, it's over $20 billion in revenue.Do you think there are more opportunities with free trade, not only the bilateral trade between the U.S. and Canada, and also because it's become a hub for import and export with Asia-Pacific, for us to do even more? If so, how can this agreement help us do even more?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInfrastructureTrade agreements60835776083578608357960835806083581Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1855)[English]Absolutely. When you look at the western ports, the port of Vancouver and the port of Prince Rupert, they exported 55 billion dollars' worth of goods in 2018, and the numbers continue to go up.Having this trade agreement in place allows certainty, as I mentioned, which is really important, as well as access to markets. Certainly while we are the gateway for the Asia-Pacific, and that is an important trading partner, the U.S. remains our most important trading partner. The certainty for movement of goods through the port is very important, for sure.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInfrastructureTrade agreements608358260835836083584RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1900)[English]How is the film industry? In Surrey Centre we have a large Netflix studio, Skydance studios, which employs over 300 people. It's absolutely true, as you said. It's one of the largest sectors, a growing sector and a high-paid sector. How does this trade certainty help that huge sector of our growing economy expand with this new CUSMA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFilm industryGovernment billsTrade agreements60835856083586BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1900)[English]People would probably recognize what I think is referred to as “Hollywood north”, or it used to be many years ago. Certainly we are becoming a very important production hub for film and television as well as for animation. Allowing the movement of people and being able to have that in place and the protection that CUSMA provides are really important. As we look to see how to do that, If we look at any improvements down the road, one would be to have assurance of any priorities or any changes that could be made to visas to allow more movement of people across the border. In particular, we look at the service sector and at the increasing demand globally for employees of the service sector. That would certainly fall under that one.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFilm industryGovernment billsTrade agreements60835876083588RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1900)[English] Ms. Bull, you mentioned that you were consulted by GAC officials, and obviously there have been provisions put in CUSMA for indigenous trade, indigenous cross-border trade, indigenous protections as well as gender protections. This is the first of any trade agreement that has had that level of participation. Are you aware of any other trade agreement, Canadian or otherwise, where a government has taken the necessary steps with indigenous communities they have taken here?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083589BridgitteAndersonTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1900)[English]No, I'm not aware. We work closely with Australia and New Zealand, and I know there has been some discussion with Australia. They have a very exceptional procurement program that's supported through the government there. There have been some discussions that I'm aware of, but more between the indigenous communities of those two countries than led by the government.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083590RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1900)[English]Is your organization able to share the procurement opportunities to your membership? I find that it's not just an indigenous issue. It's an issue across the country where I believe companies, especially SMEs, small and medium-sized businesses, don't know the opportunities they have through these new trade agreements, particularly in procurement, whether it's CPTPP, CETA or CUSMA. They're so caught up in the small little world where they've been trading, but they don't expand those horizons. Are you able to share those opportunities with them?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsIndigenous peoplesSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60835916083592TabathaBullTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1900)[English]As I said, through our membership, we have 1,000 indigenous and non-indigenous businesses, about 600 of which are indigenous businesses. We do share updates through our newsletter and through networking. However, there do need to be more programs available for us to be able to share that information more in detail with indigenous businesses, and for them to be able to build the capacity around what the new changes to CUSMA will provide for them. We are doing further work as well with Global Affairs Canada on the benefit of export and the economic opportunities. Oftentimes, we find that when we deliver that economic reality to our members, their interest is piqued, and that starts the conversations.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment contractsIndigenous peoplesSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60835936083594RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1900)[English]Thank you very much.Ms. Bull, could you identify some of the language in CUSMA that speaks to indigenous peoples? Could you give us a sense of how that will be helpful? What is your membership looking forward to, given some of the language in the agreement? Where might it have been improved? Also, were there things that you thought could have been in there that didn't appear?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements60835996083600Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1900)[English]First, we did support the request for an indigenous chapter in the trade agreement, and we do understand that this was put forward but not accepted. We do still feel that there are numerous new provisions, and enhancements to existing provisions that will support indigenous business, one being the government's ability to adopt and maintain measures to fulfill its obligations to indigenous people. It's an important general exception.They have enhanced the flexibility around indigenous peoples and indigenous-owned businesses in areas of procurement and services. I think they have really recognized indigenous businesses as an area where there is a need for flexible policies and co-operation, and to develop support programs specifically for those businesses. There's a lot of research out there as to what we can do to ensure that we can continue to grow existing businesses. How do we ensure that we can get them to other markets? Trade missions are definitely one of the ways that we can do that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements608360160836026083603DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1905)[English]Are there any other things you think government should be looking to do in order to support indigenous people in being able to get the maximum benefit out of what's in the agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083604TabathaBullTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1905)[English]Look at where the export opportunities are. There are 54,000 indigenous businesses in Canada. We have done some studies with Global Affairs on what sectors those businesses are in, and where the export opportunity is. We're really looking at the opportunity for trade missions in our neighbouring countries, to see where there is a need for that specific sector and how we get those indigenous businesses to those sectors.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083605DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1905)[English]Thank you very much.Ms. Anderson, I'm just curious if, within your membership of the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade, you're aware of any members who filed under chapter 11 of the original NAFTA, or who brought a successful suit through chapter 11.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements60836066083607TabathaBullBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1905)[English] Unfortunately, I'm not aware. I've been in the role for three months, so it's still a little early on. No, I'm not aware. I can look into that information and get back to you on that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements6083608DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1905)[English]Thank you very much.For our witness from the Toronto Region Board of Trade, I have the same question. Are you aware of any members who filed under chapter 11 against either the United States or Mexico and whether or not they were successful?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements608360960836106083611BridgitteAndersonLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1905)[English]I regret that I am not able to answer that. I'm sorry. I don't have that information.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements6083612DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1905)[English]Is it something that you might follow up on later in writing to the committee?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements6083613LeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1905)[English]Yes, absolutely. We'd be happy to do that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements6083614DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1905)[Translation]I want to thank all the witnesses for joining us in person or by videoconference.My first question is for Ms. Anderson.Ms. Anderson, you referred to the softwood lumber industry. You said that CUSMA provides protection. I must confess that I don't see any protection. Instead, I feel that this issue has been completely left off the negotiating table.As we know, recurrent crises have occurred in recent years. The American method has always been to establish punitive tariffs. Even though the courts ruled against the United States, while punitive tariffs were in effect, the industry was gradually heading toward bankruptcy.However, despite the time limits under the former NAFTA, and I believe that the time limit was 325 days to resolve a dispute of this nature, we know that things were always done through the back door. For example, it took time for the United States to appoint arbitrators, and that way, they gained time.Wouldn't this have been a real opportunity, during the negotiations, to regulate as many practices as possible so that this type of thing would no longer be possible? We could then have really taken sound legal action with regard to the softwood lumber issue.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608361960836206083621608362260836236083624Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1905)[English]To answer your question, I think that from the perspective of the British Columbia forest industry, as I've mentioned, it has been an incredibly challenging time. We have thousands of people out of work. There is no question that we encourage the government to continue to work towards achieving a negotiated softwood lumber agreement. To your questions about CUSMA, my understanding is that it preserves the original dispute settlement provisions for anti-dumping and countervailing duty cases and strengthens the panel process for state-to-state disputes. Chapter 10, which was previously known as chapter 19 in the original NAFTA, maintains for Canada and the U.S. only a binational panel review mechanism for reviewing anti-dumping and countervailing duty determinations by either country. It remains to say that we need a robust and a fair mechanism in place, so while we are pleased that chapter 10 remains in place under CUSMA, we again reinforce the need for a negotiated agreement.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608362560836266083627Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1905)[Translation]On that point, we can agree that all sorts of practices could have been specified in CUSMA. As the saying goes, “the devil is in the details.” The issue is often not so much what CUSMA includes but what it doesn't include.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083628BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1910)[English]Again, I think I would say that I encourage the government to find a negotiated settlement for the softwood lumber dispute. No better than many others across Canada, we can look at what's happening in British Columbia. Definitely we're looking at around 4,000 jobs that have been lost in mill closures, due in large part to high tariffs. British Columbia definitely would like to see an agreement and some certainty in place on this.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDispute resolutionGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083629Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1910)[Translation]We've also seen this in Quebec, in our lumber industry. We completely understand the situation.My next question is for Mr. Smout.Mr. Smout, you said that CUSMA would boost trade competitiveness. First, I've studied the issue of competitiveness very carefully. The word never seems to refer to exactly the same thing. Are we talking about market share, exports or the attractiveness of a territory? It's a somewhat catch-all word. In what sense did you use it?Since we haven't received any economic studies yet, I was also wondering about your sources. If you could share them with us, it would certainly be helpful to the committee.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCompetitionGovernment billsTrade agreements6083630608363160836326083633BridgitteAndersonLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1910)[English] Our resources are our experience working with thousands of SMEs in the Toronto region and across Canada and with the members of our board of trade in Toronto, and the sense that they have that.... Again, I don't want to say that CUSMA is the perfect agreement that's going to solve all problems. It is different from NAFTA, and we're going to have to manage through that. What we're suggesting is that it was probably the best thing that could be negotiated during this time and that having a lapsed NAFTA would be much worse than entering into this CUSMA.With respect to competitiveness, our business at the World Trade Centre is related to small and medium-size enterprises and how we can support them in a number of ways in their capacity to trade internationally. First of all, it's encouraging them to be interested in trading, because Canadian businesses need to be encouraged quite often to trade. Then it's developing their capacity and creating an export plan with them. Then, it's connecting them to markets. The only reason you would do any of those three things is if you think that their business has a value proposition. The value proposition ideally coming out of Canada is not price. It tends to be quality and being internationally known as folks who are good to work with, people you can trust doing business with. When I speak about competitiveness into the U.S., it does bring back a bit of a [Technical difficulty—Editor] because they're able to produce similar types of products to us, and when we go there, we need to have some price advantage. Certainly the value of our dollar can help us there, and tariff elimination is a critical piece of it. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCompetitionGovernment billsTrade agreements608363460836356083636Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1910)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses for coming tonight.For Ms. Bull, a CBC article from 2018 states, “In the end, the USMCA emerged without an indigenous chapter, but its ideals were 'woven throughout' the fabric of the final deal”, according to the Prime Minister. It also goes on to note that UNDRIP is not mentioned in the final deal. Do you agree with that statement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083639608364060836416083642Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1910)[English]I agree there are definite provisions throughout the CUSMA that reflect indigenous peoples, and although it does not meet UNDRIP, it does speak to the participation of indigenous people in negotiations. In arriving at where we are on CUSMA, I think it is a good step towards including indigenous people in the discussion and negotiation. We always have more discussions to be had and more negotiations to be had, but I believe that this is a really great first step.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements60836436083644ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1910)[English]Great. Can you explain to me what some of the challenges are to the indigenous businesses in Canada with regard to their trade to the U.S.? Are there any challenges that you face?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements60836456083646TabathaBullTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1915)[English]Mostly it's access to capital and being able to grow the business from the initial perspective. We have some very large businesses that are doing great work, but a lot of businesses are small to medium enterprises, and being able to access the capital and financing to go to that next tier of business to be able to export has been a barrier to some.I would say, as well, that we have a lot of businesses that are direct to consumer. As I said before, broadband and infrastructure for on-reserve businesses are a definite barrier for them to be able to export.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements60836476083648ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1915)[English]That's a fair statement. I can appreciate that. I would imagine that a lot of the exports would be clothing and textiles.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements60836496083650TabathaBullTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1915)[English]They are, but we see significant amounts in IT, actually.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083651ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssexTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1915)[English]Yes, there is some real growth in IT. We did a recent report on agriculture as well. There is existing growth in the agriculture sector.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083653ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1915)[English]Great, thank you.I have a final question. You mentioned in your opening statement...was it that 24% of indigenous companies export, to the tune of 30,000 companies?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements608365460836556083656TabathaBullTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1915)[English]It's actually 13,000.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083657ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1915)[English]It's 13,000. That's still a very remarkable number, in my opinion.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083658TabathaBullTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1915)[English]Yes. We did that research with Global Affairs Canada, and it showed that it's twice as much as non-indigenous businesses.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesTrade agreements6083659ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1915)[English]Wow, that's very interesting. That being said, these small businesses will be affected by slower processing times at the border if the CBSA is not ready to implement this new agreement. What's the potential impact on the CCAB and the people it represents if this is indeed the case?BacklogsBordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements608366060836616083662TabathaBullTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1915)[English]We have not yet done an economic assessment on export. That is work we are looking towards doing. We know we have the numbers of businesses that are exporting and the sectors they're exporting in, but we have not yet done an economic assessment.Internally in Canada, I think we have some areas of growth for procurement as well, specifically federal government procurement from indigenous business. I think there are other areas that we could be working on. However, I don't have an answer on the economic impact.BacklogsBordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60836636083664ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1915)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. Ms. Bull, I can certainly attest to your statement that the access to capital is one of the major barriers. Before joining politics I was in a small high-technology company focusing on exports and I can tell you that the company survived only because of the personal financial sense of the founders. Otherwise, the company could not have grown, nor could it have survived. Another point is that many people don't know that the bulk of the exports, almost two-thirds of the exports from Canada, are done by foreign-owned firms. I am not against foreign capital. I love foreign capital coming in and investing in Canada. The bulk of the exports from Canada, 66% to 67% of the exports, are from foreign-owned firms.However, Canada, is just one of their branch offices. Their major objective is to go after the North American market. They may not have so much interest in supplying or exporting to other markets in other parts of the world, whether it's the Asia-Pacific or Europe. Right now, only about 12% of small businesses are in exports and even there, it is just an average of 5% of their sales that are in exports. However, access to capital is a different subject for a different time. Maybe when it comes to Export Development Canada or BDC, that's where we should take it.Mr. Smout, you did mention in your January 27 statement that the economic growth has been fuelled by trade and foreign direct investment, and our ongoing prosperity relies heavily on the swift ratification of CUSMA.As I mentioned earlier, yes, foreign direct investment is very important because of the impact on exports. On the North American market, our exports to the United States, through the earlier NAFTA, have been quite stagnant for the last 10 to 15 years. It has been holding around $320 billion of exports and around $290 billion of imports.I have some numbers that show the importance of foreign direct investment for Canadian GDP. In fact, it says we are tied with the U.K. on the FDI-to-GDP ratio, which is quite significant. My only concern is, are we making policies that are catering more to foreign direct investment, or should we have specific policies to encourage Canadian entrepreneurs, mostly small-sized firms, that can export outside the North American markets?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60836686083669608367060836716083672608367360836746083675608367660836776083678Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1920)[English]Yes, I agree with the statement you've made. FDI is an important aspect, and certainly most regional organizations, municipalities and so on are looking to attract investment. It's one of the ways they promote jobs and prosperity for their regions.I also believe that the long-term health of our economy hinges on our tackling the growth of exports from our small and medium-sized enterprises, and it's really [Technical difficulty—Editor].C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60836796083680ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1920)[English]How can we make our small and medium-sized enterprises gain strength through access to the North American market but still allow them to cater to other markets across the world?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements6083681LeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1920)[English]Yes, it's a natural progression. I believe that Ms. Anderson mentioned that 95% of the trade accelerator program graduate companies in Vancouver start by tackling the States. Then as they grow their business, they start to look to foreign markets further afield.I mentioned the example of Core LED. They did the same thing. They were a domestic organization. They looked to the States and as their business grew they said, “We can do this around the world.”Many of our companies do that and we need to encourage them and support them in that growth in the U.S., as well as internationally.Our other mandate is to try to diversify to some of those other markets and some of the ways we need to do it....I believe procurement was mentioned. Also, all companies within the EU are now allowed to bid on contracts that are procured by municipalities at every level of government in Canada. Our companies are allowed to do the same in Europe.The challenge is the European companies are looking here and we're not looking quickly enough there, so we're going to increase our competition here without taking advantage of these opportunities there.My suggestion would be that the government needs to help organizations like ours and others, like all of you at the table, to encourage those businesses to look in those countries and—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements6083682608368360836846083685608368660836876083688ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1920)[English]Leigh, I had the great pleasure of sitting down with you guys in Toronto a few weeks ago. You talked about your program and how you're taking it across Canada. I do agree with you. I think it's a program that should be funded by the federal government, because you are encouraging a lot of SMEs to get out there and to get beyond their comfort zone, and you're holding their hands, for lack of better words, in doing that. I would encourage you to keep that up, and I'd encourage the Liberal members who are here to listen to this, because it's actually a very successful program.Bridgitte, I want to talk to you a bit about the high-tech sector. With people being from Vancouver, of course, and Seattle, and with the labour mobility of the people coming back and forth, how do you find USMCA in regard to labour mobility? What is good about it? In what areas can we make it even better? What should we look at?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour force mobilityTrade agreements6083692608369360836946083695Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1920)[English]Recognizing that no trade agreement is perfect and compromise is necessary, we do think there are some improvements that could be made, particularly around the TN-1 visa—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour force mobilityTrade agreements6083696RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince AlbertBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1920)[English]—to allow for the movement. When you look at the high-tech sector and the creative sector, you see that there's a lot of movement between Canada and the U.S. Also, as I mentioned, the service sector has been identified as one of those that will grow the most globally. There are provisions that could be undertaken to make sure these people can work in both jurisdictions.If I could, I'll also point to a study that we did in 2018 called the “Regional Export Framework”, which identified key export markets for greater Vancouver for businesses, including indigenous businesses. My friend here beside me may have been referring to this as well. Despite the importance of Vancouver as the Asia Pacific gateway, it identified the United States as the most important sector.What's key to your question, I think, is that there were four key services areas, trading clusters, that were really ripe for opportunity. One of them does include your question around high tech. There were professional services, travel and tourism, and transportation, but also computer and information technology. We see a lot of opportunity here, including for indigenous businesses as well as businesses more broadly in greater Vancouver. Given the opportunity here, there would be room to allow more for better movement, if you will.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour force mobilityTrade agreements608369860836996083700RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1920)[English]On that labour mobility—Leigh, you could probably jump in here too—and the film industry, Toronto, for example, has a huge film industry. I know that Vancouver does too. I'm sure you are a little concerned about the coronavirus and the impact it could have on that sector. We experienced SARS and that wasn't by any means a pleasant experience. I'm just curious. Is there anything in the USMCA that's actually going to make it stronger so that you attract more of those productions to Canada?I'll start with you, Leigh, and then I'll come to you, Bridgitte.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFilm industryGovernment billsTrade agreements6083701608370260837036083704BridgitteAndersonLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1925)[English]We've done some work with some of the entertainment organizations in the city of Toronto. One of the things they point out is that we don't actually want to be the place where people come to rent a room to film something at their whim and when they want to. What we need to do is build up the creative side of that industry. We need to actually be developing the writers and the producers in our country who are going to create the programming and then will want to film it and produce it here. I'm not sure in what way the USMCA can help that, but I do think that if you don't have an agreement in place, you're certainly going to make it harder for those folks to be able to produce things locally and also to attract the talent.There are some things we need to do in order to allow talent to come and work in Canada. We hear anecdotally through these organizations that a lot of the big stars will not come and work here because of the way they get hit by taxes when they do their acting [Technical difficulty—Editor] their career in a production that's being produced in Canada.There are a number of things like that to work on. I think the USMCA is just part of that puzzle.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFilm industryGovernment billsTrade agreements60837056083706608370760837086083709RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1925)[English]In the subsidization area, if we were to spend $1.2 billion like we did with the CBC, for example, and if we wanted more Canadian content and more Canadian productions, in throwing that money towards the writers and the facilities to get more writers and more Canadian content, we no longer have the problems we had in the fifties and sixties of getting the networks and getting the signal out to all the rural areas of Canada. Now it's just about getting Canadian content. We have so many service providers, whether it's Netflix, Amazon, you name it. Is this where we need to maybe start to change and rejig our spending and look at what is really more efficient and more effective?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian contentFilm industryGovernment billsTrade agreements60837106083711LeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1925)[English]We see opportunity in supporting the industry in that way through funding, and in particular on the education side in developing the talent, in helping the colleges and universities put together programs that actually produce this, and not having to go and import the talent itself from elsewhere. Then, of course [Technical difficulty—Editor] and you've trained people. Then you're able to keep them here, to retain them.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian contentFilm industryGovernment billsTrade agreements6083712RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1925)[English]Thank you.Welcome to the presenters.For my first question I'll go to my home province, beautiful British Columbia.Ms. Anderson, as you said, Vancouver is the Pacific gateway to trade, commerce, travel, all that comes. You also mentioned that 90% of small businesses are owned by women. Is that correct?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreementsWomen60837166083717608371860837196083720Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1925)[English]I did not mention that. I think it might have been Tabatha. I said that 98% of the businesses in British Columbia are small businesses, and they have five people or less.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreementsWomen6083721SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1925)[English]How many of those, give or take, are owned by women?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreementsWomen6083722BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1925)[English]I don't have that statistic with me. I think we can generally say a lot of enterprises, in particular a lot of small enterprises are operated and owned by women. When I look at how important that is, when we're talking about certainty, what CUSMA allows, it's very important for cross-border movement of goods and people and for a reliable and robust supply chain. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreementsWomen60837236083724SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1925)[English]Will having gender equality brought into this particular agreement help women grow when it comes to trade?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreementsWomen6083725BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1925)[English] I think we can look at the kind of statistics that exist and lots of studies have been done by many organizations, including McKinsey, which show that the addition of women to the workforce and getting us to gender parity will add trillions of dollars to GDP globally. Therefore, I'm very pleased to see that there's not only a gender lens but also an indigenous peoples lens to this because both are economic comparatives. We're going to grow the economy and we have people fully participating in the economy and that is about diversity and inclusion overall.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreementsWomen60837266083727SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1925)[English] Ms. Bull, as Ms. Anderson mentioned, when it comes to indigenous people and indigenous women in particular, how would this agreement help them? What kind of support do you think the government should provide so that women are able to participate and take equal advantage of CUSMA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreementsWomen6083728BridgitteAndersonTabathaBullTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1930)[English]We don't have specific stats on indigenous women who export, but in a number of our interviews, we did find that the women-owned businesses are exporting more than men's, and given that indigenous businesses export more than the average non-indigenous business, we see that indigenous women will stand to benefit more from this agreement.I agree with Bridgitte in that because there is a lens both on indigenous and on women, on a gender lens, there's a double opportunity for those women. Currently we have seen some great support out of ISED for women entrepreneurs. I think that needs to continue, but I would suggest that we specifically set aside funding for indigenous women entrepreneurs as well.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsIndigenous peoplesSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreementsWomen60837296083730SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1930)[English]Ms. Anderson, you mentioned B.C. lumber issues that come up from time to time and on this particular agreement, are you aware that Susan Yurkovich, the president of the BC Lumber Trade Council, supports this agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083731TabathaBullBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1930)[English]Yes, we had Susan Yurkovich from COFI at one of our events not that long ago. She was speaking in support of it, yes. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083732SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1930)[English]Will it help the B.C. lumber industry once we sign CUSMA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083733BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1930)[English]Yes, and I will go back to the comments I made to the other committee member as well, to the minister, that we need certainty and so we would like to see a negotiated agreement but we recognize that there is a provision here in CUSMA that is important as well.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083734SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1930)[English]That's chapter 19?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083735BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1930)[English]It's chapter 10.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083736SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1930)[English]Chapter 10 is the new one. That's right. You said we don't have enough industrial commercial space in Vancouver. I come from Surrey, and Campbell Heights is there. This is a gateway for trade.How should we deal with this as a region so we can accommodate the companies that do international trade?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInfrastructureTrade agreements608373760837386083739BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1930)[English] I highlighted the critical shortage of industrial land, which is unique to Vancouver. I think it's going to take collaboration and partnership to be able to address this situation, unlock that land and ensure there's growth in the region overall. We need leadership on this. We need leadership, really, from all three levels of government on this.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInfrastructureTrade agreements6083740SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1930)[English] I may be asking you to repeat yourself, in which case I do apologize, Ms. Anderson. On the question of softwood lumber in this agreement, could you elucidate once more how you think...?My understanding was that this agreement doesn't really pertain to the softwood issue. I'm wondering if you could help explain what aspect of the new agreement you think does apply and how it might be useful to the Canadian softwood lumber industry.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements608375060837516083752Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1930)[English]My understanding is that it preserves the original dispute settlement provisions for anti-dumping and for countervailing duty cases and strengthens the panel process for the state-to-state dispute. Chapter 10, which was previously known as chapter 19 of the original NAFTA, maintains for the Canada and the U.S. a binational panel review mechanism. We were pleased to see that, but this is an ongoing issue, and there are ongoing challenges, not only in British Columbia but in Quebec and in Canada overall. The forest industry in Canada is an important economic generator, so we really do encourage having a deal in place.This is not a perfect deal. We know that trade agreements are not perfect and that compromise was required, so we are pleased to see that provision staying in place, but we really encourage governments to move ahead to find a negotiated settlement.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements60837536083754DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1930)[English]On softwood specifically, the hope is that the strengthening of the panel formation system might prove helpful. Is that fair to say?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083755BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1935)[English]We would hope that it proves to be helpful and look at it as perhaps a temporary measure, but we're looking for a negotiated settlement as soon as possible for certainty, for sure.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083756DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1935)[English]Okay, so we definitely need to go above and beyond the deal in order to—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083757BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1935)[English]We would like to see a negotiated settlement.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSoftwood lumber industryTrade agreements6083758DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1935)[English]I'll be very quick, then.To everyone, there's a small business chapter in the new agreement. We've had some testimony from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and others. One question or suggestion we looked for from witnesses is how we get small businesses more involved in scaling up into trade in the North American free trade agreement. What would your suggestions to the government be as to how to get the small business community more engaged in trade by using the NAFTA as a tool?I don't know if you're in Toronto or if you're somewhere else, but I'll start with the Board of Trade in Toronto. I know you're involved in trade quite a bit, too, so I'll start with you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements608376460837656083766Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekLeighSmoutLeighSmoutLeigh-SmoutInterventionMr. Leigh Smout: (1935)[English] Thank you. I am in Halifax because we are away at our first trade accelerator program on the east coast today. Our entire focus is on convincing companies that they should look at trade internationally. We also want to get them to diversify markets, because it's uncomfortable being so dependent upon one single market. However, that single market is the closest to us culturally. It's miles across the border. It has similar rule of law. It's the easiest place, in many ways, to trade. It's challenging in other ways because each state is also a place unto itself and the rules and regulations can be different in each one. However, it's still easier than trying to sell into China and trying to sell into Africa and trying to sell into distant markets. We feel that the government needs to, first of all, ratify this agreement. We don't want to go backwards in terms of tariff-free trade with the U.S. Second, it needs to continue to support, because the federal government through ISED does support the expansion of the trade accelerator program that we are running. We started in Toronto, but now it runs literally across Canada now that we're in Halifax. They have supported that expansion. I think they saw the value in developing capacity in companies to trade and encouraging them to develop the capacity. The third thing that's really critical is that you have to get them into market. We tell people who come in that if they don't like to travel, they shouldn't get into international trade. You actually have to go to the markets. You have to learn to work with these people. It may seem that the U.S. is similar to us, but if you're trying to sell something into Texas, you're going to find the culture is a bit different there than it is here. You have to go there and learn how to do it. You have to go to trade shows. You have to take advantage of those. We would encourage the government to do all the things it's doing and to put more emphasis on helping businesses get into those markets. The trade commissioner service has wonderful, amazing people and resources in all sorts of countries around the world. What we need to do is to get more of our companies over to see them and to get their help connecting with opportunities in those markets. That's where I'd place the emphasis.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements608376760837686083769608377060837716083772TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1935)[English]I would say a couple of things and perhaps tell you an anecdote. JJust in the last couple of days I was talking to a greater Vancouver business operator who is starting an operation in the United States. When you think about the red tape that exists in Canada, in some jurisdictions there is more than in others, but certainly there is red tape and regulatory burdens among Canadian businesses. This individual is going to Arizona to set up a new business operation and was able to get a permit approval in one day and was also able to get some approvals on a Sunday. I think anything that can be done to remove barriers for business is really important.The other thing I would say, particularly about small businesses, is that while they are nimble, they have very strapped resources. When you think about the uniform regulations, the playbook of the CUSMA deal, it is important that we're going to have to understand what those rules are so that people have an idea how they can implement and operationalize CUSMA. I think it's really important that small businesses have that as soon as possible. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements608377560837766083777TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTabathaBullTabatha-BullInterventionMs. Tabatha Bull: (1940)[English]I agree with the other witnesses. The one thing, and I mentioned this earlier, is trade missions for indigenous business specifically. We have seen interest in that work. I have a few meetings this week about some of those opportunities, which is excellent, but part of that is getting them to market and ensuring that other countries and markets are aware that there are indigenous businesses available and building awareness around that. Also, whatever programs are developed specifically for indigenous businesses as allowed through the trade agreement need to be developed in coordination with indigenous people and indigenous business, so we need to ensure that we continue that engagement on the development of programs supports. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60837796083780TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1940)[English]Thank you. That was great.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083781TabathaBullJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1940)[English]Back to you, Ms. Anderson. When I was on the doorstep, every business that I went to and every worker that I talked to, particularly in the Surrey area, and I'm sure more widely, would agree with me, and every person that I met was very positive, and they wanted to get CUSMA signed, ratified and put in place. Did you see the same thing when you were talking to the businesses and people outside?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60837836083784Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1940)[English]We represent close to 5,500 members, most of them small and medium-sized businesses in greater Vancouver. Two-thirds of our members are small and medium-sized businesses. For them it is about certainty and opportunities to grow their business. It's also about being able to access markets and particularly diversification of markets. While the Asia-Pacific region is important for us, the United States remains our most important trading partner. CUSMA does give the certainty that is needed and that allows businesses to understand what the rules are when we see those uniform regulations and how to operationalize the agreement. Yes, we're seeing a lot of support among our members and that is why we're here in support of the deal. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60837856083786SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1940)[English] You talked about businesses. When I talk about ordinary, middle-class workers and their families, how does this deal going through help them, particularly in the region you come from?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083787BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1940)[English]Many average, ordinary people from greater Vancouver work, and they work for businesses. As I mentioned, 98% of businesses in British Columbia are small businesses, meaning five people or fewer. Those are the average greater Vancouverites. This does give them certainty and allows them to have access to markets and a level playing field, which is really important. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083788SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1940)[English]Do you think it will have the gender gap pay equity as well? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083789BridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitteAndersonBridgitte-AndersonInterventionMs. Bridgitte Anderson: (1940)[English] I think lots more needs to be done on gender equity, but this is a step in the right direction.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6083790SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1940)[English]Were we able to get a copy of the economic analysis today? I know you were going to check. It would be nice to have that before we sit down with her tomorrow. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6083795Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1940)[English]I have not had news from officials. I did go back, but it's not ready yet, as far as I understand it from the chief economist.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6083796RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1940)[English]It's not ready yet. Then what's she going to present tomorrow?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6083797RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1940)[English]I believe she's here to answer questions from the committee. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6083798RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (1940)[English]How do you ask questions if you don't have the document? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6083799RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1940)[English]I think that would be an excellent question to ask her tomorrow. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6083800RandyHobackPrince AlbertJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)): (0900)[English] I'm calling the meeting to order. Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, February 6, 2020, we are studying Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican States.For witnesses this morning, we have Maryscott Greenwood from the Canadian American Business Council, by video conference from Washington. Welcome and thank you for joining us.Then we have, by teleconference, Jennifer Mitchell, a director on the board of directors at Music Publishers Canada.From the Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada, we have Andrea Kokonis, general counsel, and Gilles Daigle, consultant.We are waiting for some folks from the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec who have not arrived. We will start now with Maryscott Greenwood from the Canadian American Business Council.Please proceed.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60768726076873607687460768756076876607687760768786076879MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood (Chief Executive Officer, Canadian American Business Council): (0900)[English] Good morning. Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee. Happy Fat Tuesday.Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today, and for allowing me to beam my testimony from Washington, D.C. It is an honour to advise parliamentarians on a topic as important for our two countries as the one under discussion, the most significant trade agreement on Earth, updated and modernized for the third decade of the new millennium.You will recall that the new North American free trade agreement was first announced on October 1, 2018. As you've had a number of experts provide background on the elements of the agreement, I'm not going to take up your time with a recap of the history of the rather tortuous path that brought us to this moment. We know what made it into the deal and what didn't. We know that it didn't hit 100% of every constituent's wish list, including ours at the Canadian American Business Council, but a deal that doesn't fully satisfy any party is called a compromise, and compromise is the soul of trade.Further, I think everyone acknowledges that CUSMA substantially improves not only our trade policies but also government relations in North America. It reaffirms our commitment to the rule of law, our commitment to our economic interdependence, and our belief that Mexico is a crucial partner in our shared prosperity. All three governments agreed that NAFTA needed updating, and frankly, the successful negotiations were a tremendous relief to business.As you can probably guess, the Canadian American Business Council wants to see it become law sooner rather than later. I speak for businesses in both countries, and I am here to tell you that this new deal is a set of stable rules that we will be able to depend upon for years. Business loves stability. Business loathes uncertainty. You've probably heard that formulation before. A lot has been written about how companies and financial institutions have been sitting on capital since the 2008 meltdown, despite efforts by central banks to encourage spending and lending. It's because of uncertainty.The global trade environment at the moment is volatile. Stable, mutually agreed-upon trade rules are reassuring. Don't we all want to see businesses confidently spending on growth and expanding commerce right here in North America?As a former American diplomat to Canada, and someone who has woken up every single morning for the last two decades working on the Canada-U.S. relationship, it is my mission to know the pulse of both Congress and the White House on the issues of bilateral concern that affect our business coalition. Believe me when I tell you that we are in a rare moment today. If anyone thinks it's still possible to find leverage and rewrite CUSMA, I think they misunderstand this moment in time. We are truly at a point where the Parliament of Canada must say “yea” or “nay”, up or down.That said, let me go a little bit further and tell you what I think would happen from a Washington perspective if the vote in Canada is "nay" and the deal goes down. You all know that the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate ratified what we in Washington call the USMCA in December and January. Do you know how many bills have been introduced so far this session in Congress? There have been thousands. Do you know how many have passed the House? There have been nearly 500. Do you know how many have made it through the House and the Senate so far? There have been 91, and most of those were to name post offices or veterans affairs buildings. We really don't have much agreement down here on anything.Do you remember when Speaker Pelosi actually tore up the State of the Union address, moments after the President delivered it on live national television? Well, she didn't tear up the modernized NAFTA, as some in her party would have wanted her to do. Instead, she led a comprehensive, thoughtful effort to pass it. The USMCA didn't just pass; it passed with overwhelming bipartisan majorities. In the current political climate here, that was an achievement.Then, President Trump signed it into law at the end of last month, and as you know, President Trump doesn't always do what Congress asks him to do, so the stars in Washington have aligned.Now let me put my advocate hat back on for a moment and speculate on what might happen if, now that the agreement has passed both chambers of Congress, has been signed at the White House and, importantly, has been ratified in Mexico, it were to fail in the Canadian Parliament. (0905) As you have probably heard, President Trump instinctively tends toward protectionism. His slogan is “America First”. He has described himself as “a Tariff Man”. He doesn't react happily when he's embarrassed, which he certainly would be if the new agreement fails in Canada. He rightly regards the agreement as his signature legislative accomplishment in his first term.His fallback would be tariffs. Canada, Mexico and the United States have already been through that unfortunate chapter. If trends in the current democratic primary race continue, President Trump's opponent this fall may well be Senator Bernie Sanders.Senator Sanders describes himself, as you know, as a democratic socialist. Like other people on the political left, he not only dislikes trade deals, like the original Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement and NAFTA, but he has made his opposition to this new agreement plain. He, too, would prefer to rely on tariffs to protect what he sees as America's economic interests. Let's not forget that Senator Sanders was one of the few members of Congress who voted against the USMCA.I imagine you can see where I'm going here. Does anyone really think it's a good idea to prod this president or his potential rival into a tariff war with Canada and Mexico? An irritated president, with the snap of his or her fingers, can thicken our international border, clogging traffic and giving businesses in both countries migraines. But given the size of our respective economies, I'd submit that the migraines would be worse in Canada.As someone who speaks for leading Canadian and American businesses, I would point out here that our members already have a few headaches. There is the rather delicate issue of the rail blockades. And there are questions about the ability to site and fund new infrastructure projects, particularly in the energy sector, as you know.I would suggest that rejecting the new trade agreement in this environment would amount not just to an unforced error but to a serious self-inflicted wound.That said, let me take a more optimistic tack here just for a moment. Unlike the United States, Canada has, since the 1980s, seen free trade agreements as being in its crucial national interests. Given the relative size of your market, Canadians have had a greater interest than most in clear, transparent, agreed-upon rules, which is probably why Canada has had free trade agreements with Europe, Chile, Jordan, Israel, Costa Rica, Honduras, Korea, Panama and Peru. Otherwise put, Canadian businesses have clear and preferential rules with markets representing trillions of dollars. Does it not make sense to update and pass an agreement with Canada's single largest trading partner? I dare say a long list of other countries would love to have preferential access to the American market at this point. Proximity without access is frustrating, to say the least. An agreement with the biggest market in the world is ready and available right now. Everyone is waiting.The position of the Canadian American Business Council is that your choice is clear. The updated agreement strengthens a commercial relationship that has existed since the earliest days of our countries. The effort of the last three years has been intense, sometimes nerve-racking, but we are nearly there. Canadian parliamentarians have a simple question before them, and I submit that to ask it is to answer it.Thank you very much. I'm happy to take your questions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian American Business CouncilGovernment billsTrade agreementsUnited States of America60768806076881607688260768836076884607688560768866076887607688860768896076890607689160768926076893607689460768956076896607689760768986076899607690060769016076902Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekCharlesMilliardCharles-MilliardInterventionMr. Charles Milliard (Chief Executive Officer, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec): (0910)[Translation]Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Charles Milliard, and I am the president and CEO of the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec, or the FCCQ for short. Joining me is Kathy Megyery, vice-president of strategy and economic affairs. I'd like to thank the committee for having us despite a few technical problems. We had a bit of trouble with the connection for our appearance this morning, so I thank you for your patience.The Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec represents 132 chambers of commerce across Quebec and 1,100 member businesses. The federation's members are active in every sector of the economy throughout the entire province. As Quebec's largest network of business people and businesses, the federation also serves as a provincial chamber of commerce, advocating for public policies on behalf of its members.I want to start by saying that the federation welcomes the signing of the trade agreement between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, which, as we know, puts an end to more than a year of business uncertainty. The prevailing uncertainty prior to the conclusion of the agreement was quite detrimental to business and investment in Canada. While the federation fully recognizes the importance of the new agreement, it has serious concerns about certain aspects that warrant rigorous federal oversight.The federation recognizes that the agreement was unfortunately concluded to the detriment of our supply management system and Quebec's dairy farmers, who were to some extent sacrificed. That is true of the negotiations leading to all three of the major trade deals recently signed, the Canada–European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, or CETA, the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, or CPTPP, and CUSMA. In addition, despite the very clear calls of Quebec's aluminum sector regarding regional content rules, it will not see its fate improve under the agreement. Conversely, the steel sector, 53% of which is based in Ontario, obtained the protections it had been calling for. Going forward, interprovincial equity should be the guiding principle for any concessions the federal government makes in negotiating international agreements.What's more, this agreement causes a third breach in supply management, thereby undermining the system's viability and long-term sustainability, especially for the smallest farms. Government announcements regarding compensation for CETA and the CPTPP were long in coming, and the payments have taken even longer, unfortunately. To date, dairy processors and poultry and egg farmers continue to wait for their compensation payments. Nothing has yet been announced in connection with CUSMA.The FCCQ is calling on the government to swiftly establish the terms of the compensation program for dairy farmers and producers further to CUSMA. The federation also submits that Quebec farmers should receive compensation commensurate to the share of Quebec's agri-food sector in the Canadian economy as a whole. As for the aluminum sector, the government must remain vigilant. Initially, CUSMA contained a provision requiring that 70% of steel and aluminum originate in North America. Accordingly, Mexico was supposed to purchase 70% of its supply from North America. However, a grey area in the definition would likely have allowed Mexico to continue buying cheap metal from China, as it has been for months now.The flaw was corrected in the new version of CUSMA, but only for steel, not for aluminum. This new dynamic will impact Quebec's market share. American companies supplied by Quebec have already begun relocating operations to Mexico so they can pay less for metal. Consequently, we will probably lose more and more of the U.S. market as we watch metal processing capacity move to Mexico. The FCCQ is therefore calling on the federal government to ensure the industry maintains its competitiveness in a market that has just undergone a significant change, by engaging the Americans through all diplomatic channels necessary to force Mexico to play by the rules.Under the provisions of CUSMA, Canada agreed to an increase in the duty collection threshold, the de minimis threshold, which went from $20 to $150 for duties. A longtime demand of online retailers in the U.S., the increase could lead to a spike in cross-border shopping, which would have obvious consequences for Quebec retailers and their employees. The higher threshold could prompt U.S. online retailers to start offering customers free shipping to Canada, something many already offer their customers in the U.S. The FCCQ is therefore calling on the federal government to pay close attention to the retail sector overall to ensure it can remain competitive with foreign companies.Furthermore, the federation's members, especially small and medium-size businesses, share a common concern, one we want to convey to the government today: information on the benefits of these trade agreements is lacking. They feel the government should be doing a better job when it comes to the trade deals and after-sales service.(0915)Although a number of mechanisms are in place, the information doesn't always seem to flow as effectively as our business network in Quebec would like. The government should be more proactive when it comes to educating companies about the benefits of leveraging trade agreements and conquering foreign markets.Accordingly, it is necessary, in our view, to provide businesses with support as they enter the export market for the first time. It would also be a good idea to provide smaller businesses with more online support and high-potential companies with tailored support.The FCCQ has always advocated the importance of diversifying export markets and leverages its network of well-established local chambers of commerce across the province to help Quebec companies discover the benefits of export markets and seize new business opportunities.Against the current backdrop of American protectionism, it's important for Quebec companies to focus on other high-potential markets and increase their proportion of non-U.S. exports. As you know, 70% of Quebec exports last year were destined for the U.S. Diversifying our trade partners is even more important considering the uncertainty caused by American surtaxes, which has taken its toll on our economy in recent years.Finally, I want to highlight the fact that numerous products that are not compliant with current regulations seem to be making their way across the border, because the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is short on resources. With added restrictions, it's essential to increase the level of screening and analysis to make sure imported products adhere to the same requirements our products do.Clearly, the purpose of Canada's regulatory framework is to foster better consumer health, but to do that, companies subject to the regulations must incur the associated costs. Harmonization is thus vital to the competitiveness of Quebec's agri-food industry. The FCCQ is recommending that the government increase controls and inspections by the agency to ensure imported products meet the same standards and rules as Canadian products.Thank you. We would be pleased to answer any questions you have.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDuty exemptionsFédération des chambres de commerce du QuébecGovernment billsGovernment compensationMarket accessMexicoMilliard, CharlesProvince of QuebecRegulationRetail tradeSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60769066076907607690860769096076910607691160769126076913607691460769156076916607691760769186076919607692060769216076922607692360769246076925Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJenniferMitchellJennifer-MitchellInterventionMs. Jennifer Mitchell (Director, Board of Directors, Music Publishers Canada): (0920)[English] Good morning and thank you, Madam Chair and honourable members, for this opportunity. I'm sorry I'm not available to be there in person.I've had the pleasure of owning and running a Canadian-owned independent music publishing business for almost two decades. I'm here today with Casey Chisick of Cassels, who is external legal counsel to both Music Publishers Canada and my companies.I'm here to talk to you about the need to fully implement copyright term extension, in accordance with CUSMA, immediately, completely and with no conditions. This will allow songwriters to succeed and small businesses like mine to thrive. Quickly ratifying CUSMA and implementing copyright term extension goes straight to the heart of their and our creative and business efforts.Bill C-4 would extend the term of copyright for a few works but would leave out musical compositions—otherwise known as songs. On behalf of Music Publishers Canada and the songwriters and composers I work with, I urge committee members to amend Bill C-4 to align Canada with its global trading partners by including all musical, literary, dramatic and artistic works.Canadian music publishing is a $329-million industry, just one sector of the $53-billion creative industry. Music publishers are innovators. Their strong export strategies have allowed entrepreneurs like me to better compete internationally. A total of 67% of music publishers' revenue now comes from foreign sources, a dramatic increase from 28% in 2005. The key to dealing with changes in technology has been our ability to expand globally. In order to do so, we take financial risks and invest our time, energy and money in building the international careers of songwriters, including emerging songwriters. For example, we signed 23-year-old Tom Probizanski, which allowed him to move to Toronto. We then paid for him to go to L.A. and Denmark to co-write, and we set up his co-writing sessions. We also paid for his blog and playlisting promotion so that he was featured in Clash magazine, Earmilk and various Spotify playlists. We were able to take these risks and invest that money only because I could rely on the income of several songs for which my companies hold the copyright—for example, Imagine by John Lennon; What a Wonderful World; My Way; Y.M.C.A.; Start Me Up by the Rolling Stones; Skinnamarink by Sharon, Lois and Bram; and even the theme to The Simpsons. But a number of songs will soon fall into the public domain because Canada's copyright legislation is not aligned with international standards. Holding on to these valuable copyrights for an extra 20 years would translate into hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay for good middle-class jobs, reinvestment in the Canadian economy and Canadian songwriters, and the ability to scale our business and export our music to international markets. Immediate action should be taken to prevent countless valuable works from falling into the public domain between now and the end of 2022. Otherwise, we risk stifling innovation, creativity, export potential and growth for small businesses like mine. We also risk creating more confusion, as remaining out of step with our international trading partners continues to complicate licensing for users instead of providing any relief.I would like to quickly speak about the industry committee's report on its review of the Copyright Act in the last Parliament. Some believe that copyright registration is needed in order to have a seamless transition. I respectfully disagree. Publishers and songwriters already register all of their works with SOCAN and CMRRA in Canada in order to be paid. A second government registration system would create nothing more than an unnecessary burden for copyright owners and the potential to introduce abuse into a system that already works very well to the benefit of creators, users and the public. Mandatory registration would also violate Canada's international treaty obligations, even if it only applies to the last 20 years of an extended term. It is a basic tenet of copyright law internationally that protection must be granted without formality.In conclusion, adding another 20 years to the life of a copyright means a robust creative sector, more Canadian cultural exports, and the growth of many innovative businesses that have embraced the digital market.(0925) It is long past time for Canada to catch up to its international trading partners in this respect. We urge committee members to amend Bill C-4 to include immediate implementation of copyright term extension, with no conditions. Music Publishers Canada has prepared draft legislative language to accomplish this, which we've submitted to the clerk for the committee's consideration.I understand that SOCAN will be presenting shortly. We've read their submissions and are in full agreement with them.Thank you again for the opportunity to speak to this important issue. Casey Chisick and I are happy to answer any questions you may have.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryMusic Publishers CanadaTrade agreements607692960769306076931607693260769336076934607693560769366076937607693860769396076940Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAndreaKokonisAndrea-KokonisInterventionMs. Andrea Kokonis (General Counsel, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada): (0925)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee.My name is Andrea Kokonis, and I am the chief legal officer and general counsel at the Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada, or SOCAN for short. With me is Gilles Daigle, a lawyer with more than 30 years of experience in Canadian copyright law.SOCAN is Canada's largest music rights society and administers public performance, communication and reproduction rights of authors, composers and publishers of music. We currently have more than 160,000 Canadian members and clients, and we also represent the repertoire of all foreign performing rights societies and several reproduction rights societies in the Canadian territory.SOCAN is deeply committed to fair compensation for Canadian music creators and their business partners for the use of their work, under a protective regime in Canada that is in line with that of its biggest trading partners.The new NAFTA has opened the door to implement an important and long-awaited change in the term of copyright—extending it from 50 to 70 years after the life of the author—and to do so immediately. Yet, despite the clear intention and wording in the new NAFTA, Bill C-4 as it now stands does not address basic term extension.There is no valid reason for Canada to delay, yet again, term extension of copyright in our country. We therefore urge this committee to recommend, in the strongest possible way, that the necessary term extension amendments be added to Bill C-4.As it stands, Canada's copyright protection term is not meeting the current international standard. This places our members and all Canadian creators at a disadvantage compared with our major trading partners. An extension to copyright term would increase Canadian investment and business in copyright-based industries located in Canada by removing disparities between Canada and other major economies.[English]The current term of copyright protection in Canada—life plus 50 years for creators of musical and other works—is out of line with modern copyright law. After the original NAFTA was ratified, the United States, in 1998, increased its term to life of author plus 70 years. In 2003, Mexico increased the term of protection to life of author plus 100 years. As part of the NAFTA renegotiation, we asked for provisions that reflected this new reality, recommending that the minimum term of copyright protection be life plus 70 years. Our position was supported by all major organizations in the North American music ecosystem.While in Canada protection for musical works is life of the author plus 50 years, by contrast the majority of Canada's largest trading partners recognize a general standard of the life of the author plus at least 70 years. These countries include all of the European Union members, the United Kingdom, Australia, Israel, Norway, Switzerland, Peru, Brazil, Iceland, Japan and even Russia. Canada's current law is consistent with only the minimum protections set out over a century ago in the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. The intention at that time was to establish a term of protection that was enough to benefit two generations of descendants of the creator of the work. With longer life expectancies, a term of life plus 50 years no longer reflects the underlying intention of that treaty. Around the time that Canada joined the Berne Convention, in 1928, the average life expectancy was 60 years. It rose to about 81 years between 2007 and 2009.As a result, the current term of protection afforded under the Canadian Copyright Act is insufficient to cover two generations of descendants of a songwriter, and the current term is therefore out of line with the policy objectives of the Berne Convention. As mentioned, this has been recognized and remedied by Canada's major trading partners. Canada's shorter term is also out of step with the emphasis and value that Canada has otherwise placed on the creation of works, both domestically as part of our heritage and internationally as leaders of cultural exports.Canadians authors and composers of music, and their publishers, can be at a disadvantage as cultural exporters because their works may be subject to lesser protections internationally because of Canada's outdated term of protection. This is unfair and most unfortunate, as Canada's laws should not place limits on the ability of Canadian creators to exploit their works around the world.(0930) A longer term of protection in Canada would better allow music publishers to reinvest the revenues they derived from the exploitation of copyright-protected works in the discovery, support and development of songwriters and composers. Additionally, from a multinational perspective, longer terms of protection in a market provide incentives for foreign companies to invest in repertoire in that market. In both cases, providing for a longer term of copyright protection in Canada would strengthen domestic reinvestment in cultural development and diversity, as well as foreign investment in Canada's substantial local talent. There is no justifiable reason to further delay the implementation of the extension. The government should fulfill its commitment immediately.When Bill C-100 was introduced in the House last year, replaced by Bill C-4 in this Parliament, SOCAN and other music organizations were disappointed to see that, while some copyright modifications were made in the implementation bill, the term extension was not modified. It is our understanding that Canada has two and a half years to fully implement all of CUSMA, but we strongly believe the term extension was—and remains—a key piece of the renegotiation in light of the same extensions that our trading partners have implemented in their own home copyright laws. The embarrassing reality at the moment is that Canadian authors have the same limited copyright protections as creators from countries such as Iran, Liberia, Pakistan, Syria, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Angola and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Our members deserve better than that. All Canadian creators deserve better than that. SOCAN, therefore, recommends that Canada amend the Copyright Act to extend the term of copyright protection for musical works to the life of the author plus 70 years, in recognition of current international copyright norms as well as the underlying intention of the Berne Convention and other such benchmarks for valuing intellectual property. Specifically, SOCAN recommends that the basic term of copyright be extended under section 6 of the Copyright Act, as well as the very few other provisions that need to be added.As part of the submission that we have handed out, we have also included with the speaking notes the chart that Music Publishers Canada created to show where the amendments should be made.Thank you very much.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industrySociety of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of CanadaTrade agreements60769436076944607694560769466076947607694860769496076950607695160769526076953607695460769556076956607695760769586076959Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (0930)[English]I look forward to seeing it. If we could have it the day before or even later this afternoon, that would give us a chance to at least go through it tonight. I'm sure it's a big document, so it's a lot to go through, but we'll do our best. Hopefully we can see it.Witnesses, thank you for being here this morning. Scotty, we've been friends for five years, but we usually just meet in airports. I can't believe we're actually meeting somewhere other than an airport. It's an inside joke: It seems like she has a seat at the Ottawa airport and my seat is right next to hers.I going to start off with you, Scotty. Can you give us a sense, in the U.S., of how many times Lighthizer actually went over to talk to Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats before they went to renegotiations?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsNegotiations and negotiatorsTrade agreementsUnited States of America6076971607697260769736076974Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (0935)[English]I don't have the exact number, Mr. Hoback, but I would say quite a few times. One of the underappreciated elements of the Trump administration's negotiation strategy is that Ambassador Lighthizer, who has been a real trade warrior for many years, knew that the opposition party controlling the House would hold the fate of this agreement in its hands. He absolutely did a lot to coordinate with the Speaker and also the members of the Ways and Means Committee. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsNegotiations and negotiatorsTrade agreementsUnited States of America6076975RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (0935)[English]That's where we get frustrated here. People are being told that we're stalling and delaying, which is far from the truth. In fact, I offered to bring a pre-study to it last spring. The Libs said no. We offered to come back in the summer if we needed to; there was no need to. When it was renegotiated, we asked for more information. We got a briefing. When we asked questions at the briefing, we didn't get a response until January. In fact, Wayne Easter and I were at a CABC meeting when you were here in Ottawa, and we both said we could do this as a committee of the whole and have it done in December before Christmas.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6076976MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (0935)[English] I do remember that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6076977RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (0935)[English]Of course, there was no appetite from the Liberal Party to do that.This will pass, and I want to make sure that you understand that we are not going to vote against it. That being said—and you would understand this too—Trump got elected by the Rust Belt states that felt neglected, that weren't included or thought about after the last NAFTA agreement, and I don't want to make that same mistake. We've had some 200 submissions to appear in front of this committee, and we were proposing March 5 to have it out of committee, which would have been during the break week, which means it would have hit the House at exactly the same time it will right now. The Liberal Party said no, and I can see why, because as we start to go through it, we start to see the economic analysis that the C.D. Howe Institute did. It said it will be a $10-billion hit for Canada. If you compare it to TPP, if we had all signed on as Obama wanted us to, it would have been a $4-billion plus. So there's lots to absorb. When you're looking at this $10-billion hit, there are a lot of groups and organizations and companies that are negatively impacted. I'm not going to vote against it and they understand that, but they at least want a mitigation plan. They want to understand what it means for them and how the government is going to help them, and that's all we're trying to do here. So we will get through this, and I hope we will be in clause-by-clause by Thursday and it will be back into the House and then hopefully the Senate. Now, I can't control the Senate. That's a different can of worms, and good luck there.One of the things we talked about before was the de minimis and the changes to the de minimis, going from $20 to $40. I know you probably wanted it to be $800, but it's not there. Then there's the tax-free status to $150, but a lot of people don't understand that Canada Post, which is the biggest carrier here in Canada, is not included in that.Do you have any thoughts on that and why Canada Post wouldn't have been included and only private couriers were included in that scenario? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDuty exemptionsGovernment billsPostal servicesTrade agreements60769786076979607698060769816076982MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (0935)[English]Mr. Hoback, I don't know what the puts and takes were with the various carriers. You are right to say that we thought very strongly that it would make sense to align the de minimis level among all three countries. Why was that? Quite simply, we didn't think it made sense to penalize Canadians who engage in e-commerce. When you think about all the remote communities and all the places in the vast country that is Canada, there just aren't retailers that have every single item that somebody might want on a given day. Our thought was that it didn't make sense to penalize Canadians for that, and actually the government loses money when it does that.As for your particular question about why some carriers were included and not others, I don't know. I think you'd have to ask the negotiators themselves. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDuty exemptionsGovernment billsPostal servicesTrade agreements60769836076984RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (0935)[English]Okay. So you have no insight on that, then.I'll go to the composers, SOCAN. You were talking about the changes to copyright, and you mentioned an amendment. Both you and the Music Publishers are saying we should try to amend it. Now that's not an option, from what I understand. We can't amend it. We don't have that choice, but we can make a mental note to lay down some talks and discussions moving forward. Maybe even in implementation we can look at doing that. Maybe it's just Canadian legislation that needs to change. So maybe this should go back to the industry committee and go that route. Is that fair to say?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements607698560769866076987MaryscottGreenwoodGillesDaigleGillesDaigleGilles-DaigleInterventionMr. Gilles Daigle (Consultant, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada): (0935)[English]To be clear, our request would not require a change to CUSMA. It's Bill C-4, the implementation act, and we're talking about changing the number five to the number seven in about half a dozen places or fewer. This is as simple as can be. We could do it here in less than five minutes. I would hope that this committee, taking that fact into account, will do everything it can to change those few numbers. I have to say that our organizations have been told many times that this change was coming. I've been in this industry for 30 years now. That's where the grey hair comes from.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industrySociety of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of CanadaTrade agreements60769886076989RandyHobackPrince AlbertRandyHobackPrince Albert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/59148RandyHobackRandy-HobackPrince AlbertConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HobackRandy_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Randy Hoback: (0940)[English] You've heard it for 30 years.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements6076990GillesDaigleGillesDaigleGillesDaigleGilles-DaigleInterventionMr. Gilles Daigle: (0940)[English]And throughout the early 2000s, how many times were we told that, as part of this now ongoing copyright revision process, they'd extend the term? The final output of that came in 2012, with major changes to the Copyright Act. Term extension was left out. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements6076991RandyHobackPrince AlbertJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Surrey—Newton, Lib.): (0940)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank the presenters as well. My first question is going to Washington, for Ms. Greenwood. Ms. Greenwood, you said businesses love stability. I come from a small business background. It is my understanding that workers love stability as much as the businesses do. How do you feel that CUSMA will help not only businesses but also middle-class workers?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMiddle classTrade agreements6076994607699560769966076997Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (0940)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to all the presenters.My question goes to you, Ms. Greenwood. You said that businesses love stability. I come from a small business background, being a professional engineer, a land surveyor and into land development. I personally see that the workers love stability as much as businesses do. Do you agree with that?The second question will be, how would this agreement help the middle-class workers, not only the businesses?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMiddle classTrade agreements60770096077010607701160770126077013Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (0940)[English]Absolutely.To your first question, absolutely, workers love stability as much as business owners do. We all have to figure out how we're going to balance our chequebook at the end of the day. We have to figure out how we're going to pay our bills, pay for our kids to go to college—and, in the United States, pay for health care. Certainty an ability to predict that you're going to be able to make it through to the end of the month and pay your bills is absolutely important to everybody, to every family—workers, ranchers, farmers, you name it.In terms of how it benefits workers, in addition to business owners, it's interesting to note that for the first time in our modern history, the AFL-CIO, the big umbrella trade union in the United States, came out in favour of the USMCA, the new NAFTA. I also note that there are representatives of workers in Canada, including Mr. Jerry Dias, who have been strong proponents all along.Whether it's for large manufacturers of automobiles, which is a huge part of our economy in Canada, the United States and Mexico, or some mom-and-pop shops, there is benefit, absolutely, to not only knowing what the rules of the road are, but also knowing how you address a dispute if you have one, which this agreement also has—at Canada's insistence, I would add. But it's just knowing what your cost of inputs are and that you're going to be able to keep doing what you do at the end of each month.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMiddle classTrade agreements6077014607701560770166077017SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (0945)[English]Thank you.My next question goes to Mr. Milliard. You said that SMEs don't take full advantage of all these agreements and they need to be aware of the advantages they have. Could you elaborate on some of the things government should be doing, and you as an organization representing small businesses should be doing, so that the small and medium-sized businesses can take full advantage of CUSMA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60770186077019MaryscottGreenwoodKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery (Vice-President, Strategy and Economic Affairs, Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec): (0945)[Translation]Thank you for your question.For businesses big and small in Quebec, the United States is usually their first export market. Two-thirds of Quebec's exports go to the U.S., so it's important that all small and medium-size businesses, not just large sophisticated companies, be able to take advantage.In order for that to happen, we are recommending that the government do a better job of supporting small and medium-size businesses by helping them understand the business opportunities available to them. They often don't know in which parts of the country those opportunities lie. We are also recommending financial support to help those businesses as they endeavour to break into new markets, something that is often new to them.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementFédération des chambres de commerce du QuébecGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements607702060770216077022SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (0945)[English] Thank you.My next question is for the music publishers. It is my understanding that CUSMA is an agreement that has protected cultural communities throughout Quebec and British Columbia. Could you elaborate? Do you agree with that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian contentGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements60770236077024KathyMegyeryGillesDaigleGillesDaigleGilles-DaigleInterventionMr. Gilles Daigle: (0945)[English]In respect of the particular issue that is of concern to us, which first and foremost is term extension, CUSMA does; the implementation legislation, Bill C-4, does not, or at least it does not today. It is not acceptable to our constituency that we have to wait perhaps as long as two and a half years, because, as I don't have to tell this group, in politics and in government a lot could happen that could potentially change that obligation.In a response to Mr. Hoback, I started talking about the fact that we've been told on so many occasions that the extension was going to be implemented. In 2012, it didn't happen. For the TPP, the extension was in the draft text. Canada pulled it. We now get to the new NAFTA. It's in CUSMA, but not right away. We're going to take as long as two and a half years to implement it. Why? The message it sends to our members and to Ms. Mitchell as a publisher is “Your music is not as worthy of protection, the longer protection, as that of your peers.” In the U.S., Bruce Springsteen's works are protected for 70 years. For Bryan Adams and Jim Vallance, it's 50 years. In Canada, we are not prepared to make that change today. We're going to see if we can do it in the next two and a half years. That's not good enough for our members anymore. We've heard that too many times. I'm sure that Ms. Mitchell, as a publisher, would probably have some thoughts on that as well.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian contentCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements607702560770266077027SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): (0945)[Translation]I, too, would like to thank all the witnesses for their varied and relevant comments.My question is for the FCCQ representatives. I think the picture they've painted thus far is consistent with how the Bloc Québécois sees the situation. Far from being anti-free trade, we nevertheless believe the agreement, as it stands, contains some irritants.You did a good job of explaining that, contrary to repeated statements, the agreement does not treat aluminum and steel in the same way, and that the bulk of the aluminum sector is in Quebec, unlike the steel sector, which is concentrated in Ontario.You also brought up supply management and the fact that it took a beating further to the negotiations, as with so many negotiations in the past. You talked about the importance of swift and adequate compensation. That brings me to my question, since you are still in favour of ratifying the final agreement.Yesterday, we heard from the Dairy Farmers of Canada, and I asked its representatives about an appropriate ratification date. They said no earlier than May 1, to comply with the coming into force date of three months, which would take us to August 1, the beginning of the fiscal year in the dairy sector.Is there a particular date you would prefer, or do you also think it's urgent and should be done swiftly?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements607703060770316077032607703360770346077035Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery: (0950)[Translation]You summed up our comments well. Indeed, it's not an ideal agreement, but it's the best one we were able to get. It's important that it be ratified in a timely manner, in other words, as quickly as possible, to put an end to the uncertainty hanging in the air. It's also important, of course, that the government put in place the necessary compensation programs for affected sectors, especially the aluminum industry and supply-managed sectors.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment compensationSupply managementTrade agreements6077036Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (0950)[Translation]I'd like you to tell me what you mean by “as quickly as possible”.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077037KathyMegyeryCharlesMilliardCharlesMilliardCharles-MilliardInterventionMr. Charles Milliard: (0950)[Translation]We mean the soonest that the current legislative process would allow. I think the feeling of urgency has to do with the compensation package. As we pointed out, compensation further to the other agreements was long in coming, and the payments even more so. Consequently, the feeling is that the compensation plan is urgently needed and must be implemented. As for the ratification of the agreement, it depends to some extent on how fast you work.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment compensationMilliard, CharlesSupply managementTrade agreements6077038Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (0950)[Translation]Believe me, we are doing our best. This week, we are spending 40 hours on it, and last week, we spent about 30 hours. Everything else has been put on hold.Something else you talked about was the need to educate small and medium-size businesses, mainly. What form should that education take? What would be the right way to convey that information?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60770396077040CharlesMilliardKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery: (0950)[Translation]As you are aware, we have trade commissioners in Quebec and in Canada. In Quebec, we strengthened their role in the world by giving them an increasingly economic mandate. We think that is an important way to reach out to businesses and help them better understand the opportunities available to them under trade agreements.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements6077041Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (0950)[Translation] I want to be sure I understand correctly. When you say that you gave trade commissioners an increasingly economic mandate, who are you referring to?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsTrade commissioners6077042KathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery: (0950)[Translation]I am referring to the commissioners that are active in various cities around the world.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsTrade commissioners6077043Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (0950)[Translation]You're referring to Quebec's trade commissioners abroad.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsTrade commissioners6077044KathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery: (0950)[Translation]Precisely.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsTrade commissioners6077045Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (0950)[Translation]Great. I see now. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077046KathyMegyerySimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: I'd like to ask Ms. Greenwood the same question.You talked about the importance of moving very quickly, as soon as possible, and not challenging the agreement. Conversely, don't you think that sometimes it's a good idea to give the more disadvantaged sectors the time they need to at least adjust to the agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60770476077048Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (0950)[English]It is important to seize a moment in time to ratify. I don't have a particular view on accommodations that will be made to sectors that are impacted, and what that should look like in each of the three countries, although I understand it's very important.My point was about the legislative process at the federal level, recognizing that Mexico has already begun and the United States has been through a process. I worry that we'll miss a window in time if not ratifying. I understand your point, and it's an important one, about how affected sectors are impacted, and I'm not speaking to that point.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60770496077050Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (0950)[Translation]I must say I'm a bit surprised by your answer. On one hand, you're telling us how important it is to ratify the deal quickly, to move forward without question and not to raise any red flags. On the other hand, you're telling us that you didn't consider the compensation issue and avenues to correct certain areas where the agreement went too far.I have to tell you I'm extremely surprised by your answer.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements60770516077052MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (0955)[English]The agreement was negotiated over almost a year, and there was a lot of back and forth between the three countries. As trade agreements go, it was a fairly fast negotiation, but now that we are at the end of that process, the negotiation period is really over.I don't have an opinion, and I'm not an expert on what the compensation, accommodations or phase-in period should be for any particular sector within Canada. I'm not saying it's not important; that's just not my expertise. I'm only talking about the legislation, and the negotiations of the trade agreement itself.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements60770536077054Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): (0955)[English] Ms. Greenwood, in your opening remarks you talked a bit about the interplay between the executive and the legislature in the United States, and the effect that had on this particular deal.You may know, being familiar with Canada's trade process, that there really isn't much interplay at all between the legislature and the executive. Members of the NDP have worked in this process to create some, because we think that would be to the benefit of Canadians.Could you expand a little more on that interplay? What is it that the executive owes to the legislature in the United States with respect to trade agreements? How do you see that having played out, not necessarily in the context of this agreement but if you have some thoughts on other instances where that has been a productive interplay?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsUnited States of America607705660770576077058Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (0955)[English] Sure. Thank you for that.What I would note at the outset is the difference between our constitutional form of democracy and your parliamentary form. They're very different.In the United States, our system was set up to have separate branches of government that truly have different power bases. They were designed by our founders to be really jealous of each other, and they have different authorities. The states came first in our system. Then when the federal government came, historically, Congress was set up as a check to the executive branch, and you really need both to get anything done.As you know much better than I do, the parliamentary system is a completely different animal. It's different in a majority government, as you know, versus a minority government. I'm not an expert on the parliamentary system, and I wouldn't want to weigh in on the appropriate level of back and forth between the parties.What I will say is that, in our system, even when you have the same parties in the White House administration as in Congress, they're still separate branches of power, and they have to negotiate with each other. That's a long-standing tradition here, so the Trump administration knew that it would have to negotiate with Congress because that was baked in ever since the founding of our democracy.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsUnited States of America60770596077060607706160770626077063DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (0955)[English]Right on. Thank you very much for taking a little time to offer those reflections.I want to ask our guests from the publishing industry a question. I certainly hear your representations loud and clear with respect to term extension. Clearly, there's frustration there that it hasn't happened sooner. Presumably, government isn't acting simply out of spite towards your industry. Who would you say are the winners of not moving ahead quickly with term extension?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements60770646077065MaryscottGreenwoodGillesDaigleJenniferMitchellJennifer-MitchellInterventionMs. Jennifer Mitchell: (0955)[English]Who would I say are the winners from not extending the copyright term? I'm not sure that there are any winners, to be honest. The songwriters themselves, of course, are not the winners because what happens when you extend copyright is that we are able to continue to receive revenue on hit songs and songs that we have been publishing for many years. We take that revenue, and we reinvest it in songwriters.For example, when I find songwriters, those songwriters don't just sit at home and write songs. If they want to be successful, I need to send them around the world to write with other writers—which is called co-writing—which is fairly expensive. We need to have those relationships in place so that they are able to write songs that are then going to be recorded by artists who generate revenue.My inability to do that would definitely impact their ability to have careers. It would also mean less Canadian content for Canada, so I'm not sure that the public benefits either.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements607706860770696077070DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1000)[English]Am I to understand from that, then, that successive Canadian governments of different political stripes have stubbornly refused to grant a copyright extension and nobody's asking for that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements6077071JenniferMitchellJenniferMitchellJenniferMitchellJennifer-MitchellInterventionMs. Jennifer Mitchell: (1000)[English]I don't know if I would quite phrase it that way, but we have agreed through certain conventions, including the Berne Convention, where we were supposed to be aligned with our international trading partners. I'm sure that there are a lot of reasons why they decided not to proceed, including the point that copyright is kind of a complicated subject. Certainly, it's something that should have been done. Now that we have agreed, we'd like to see it implemented right away and not wait the 30 months.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements6077072DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaCaseyChisickCaseyChisickCasey-ChisickInterventionMr. Casey Chisick (Legal Counsel, Music Publishers Canada): (1000)[English]If I may, there are criticisms from academia in particular and concerns raised about the importance of a robust public domain. The difficulty with that argument is that there's very little evidence in practice that the economic or other implications of term extension are in fact a net negative for creativity in the public domain. Then there's also the very practical consideration that, in reality, all that happens is that third party commercial entities end up taking advantage of works that fall into the public domain. The most recent example that I can think of in Canada was a record label that began to put out re-releases of public domain sound recordings for its own commercial gain, with no benefit for the artists who recorded them or for the entities that originally financed those recordings. It's very difficult to see who wins from the refusal of the government over the last many years to follow suit and join its international trading partners with a longer term for copyright.Ms. Jennifer Mitchell: I would also add that—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCopyright and copyright lawGovernment billsMusic industryMusic Publishers CanadaTrade agreements607707360770746077075JenniferMitchellJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC): (1000)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here. I wanted to start off, too, by thanking Scotty. When these negotiations started, we all knew we were on a tight timeline. Whenever we went down to the U.S., you were always very quick to get good groups together so that we could get our input, and I want to thank you very much for that.You mentioned in your opening that business loves certainty. We certainly are in agreement with that. We know that there has been a bit of a campaign in the U.S. saying that Conservatives are going to try to slow down this deal, but we want to be very clear with you: We're not. What we're trying to do is our due diligence. It was very frustrating for us here in committee. Mr. Hoback actually wanted to do a pre-study on this last spring before the election. We were unable to do that. We knew that the U.S. International Trade Commission came out with some numbers saying that this deal would be a net positive for the U.S. and the number is about $68.2 billion. We were just trying to get some Canadian lens on it. We were told before the election it was a win-win-win. We were told it was going to be a victory for Canadians, a positive. We've been asking the minister, and she's been very uncooperative in releasing any advice she's had. Just Friday, the C.D. Howe Institute came out and said this would be a $10-billion hit to Canadians' GDP. Even though that is a hit, they also commented that, if we don't have an agreement, it's going to be far worse, so we're in agreement with you that we do need to pass this and move on from there.I was wondering if the Canadian American Business Council has any independent economic analysis that you might be able to share with this committee. As you heard, we're only going to get that information from the Canadian lens tomorrow, and we expect to go through clause-by-clause by the end of the week.Do you have anything you could share with us, even today, or over the next couple of days, that would enlighten us somewhat?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60770786077079607708060770816077082607708360770846077085Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1000)[English]I wish I had a barnful of economists I could make available to you for this. We're a pretty lean and mean operation here. That said, our members have done analysis over the last year about this. We're happy to provide that, or I'm sure the committee can avail itself of information from the chief economists of the various banks in Canada, for example, each of whom has looked at this. I think it's important to do your homework, but I also think people can take statistics out of context sometimes. I think you have to think about, as you did in your remarks, the big picture and what the alternative is. It's not just in a vacuum. You either have the status quo or you have this new deal, but if you don't pass the deal, what happens then? What would be the impact of that? That gets into the realm of speculation. There are some think tanks that have done some work on it, but the only data I have would come from our members, and we're happy to provide that to everyone. The economists of TD, RBC and CIBC would be the relevant Canadian economists.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60770866077087ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1005)[English]That's great, and if you're able to flip that over, that would be wonderful.I know we've had conversations and I know you guys were very supportive of the original TPP. One of the frustrations occurs when you look at that analysis through the Canadian lens. It was going to be a net positive, over $4.3 billion to our GDP, and now to see the only Canadian lens we have seeing a net negative of $10 billion is a little bit frustrating for us. We will do our due diligence, but we want to make sure that, for Canadian families, businesses and sectors that are negatively affected, the government puts in programs and supports to help them get through the implementation of this agreement.Thank you for that, and thank you for your continued support.I wanted to talk to SOCAN as well, because the minister was here saying she consulted extensively with all the different sectors—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60770886077089607709060770916077092MaryscottGreenwoodJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1005)[English]Basically, we had the dairy people and the pharmaceutical ones, who said they really weren't listened to when this agreement was formalized. Would you be able to comment on whether your industry was listened to and whether what you said to the government was indicated in the agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements60770946077095Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGillesDaigleGilles-DaigleInterventionMr. Gilles Daigle: (1005)[English]They heard us, but they did not want to hear what we had to say.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMusic industryTrade agreements6077097Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1005)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you all for being here.My question is for the FCCQ representatives.First of all, thank you for supporting the agreement and calling for its swift ratification. As you know, trade between Quebec and the U.S. is extremely important, valued at more than $90 billion. As you so eloquently mentioned during your presentation, we need to provide businesses with the support they need to understand the opportunities that trade deals open up to them.We strengthened the role of our trade commissioners, and to be clear, they are federal trade commissioners who work in more than 160 cities worldwide with a mandate to help small and medium-size businesses navigate international markets. We also have the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec, which provides funding and highly specialized tailored support to business owners with a focus on small businesses. As well, we have Export Development Canada and CanExport, which provide support to small and medium-size businesses.I'd like to know what you and your members think about all of those organizations and how we could make them more effective.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic developmentGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements607710060771016077102607710360771046077105Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery: (1005)[Translation]You're right to acknowledge all these organizations. These people are doing a very good job.Furthermore, what our members are telling us concerns the agreement with the European Union. Businesses are finding that France has a much greater presence in Quebec than Quebec businesses have in France. That's one example. This shows once again that, despite everything in place, we must still do more to ensure that Quebec businesses benefit from a very natural relationship with France, for example, and, of course, with the United States, which is the first choice of businesses, especially in northern and northeastern United States. However, SMEs are often unaware of the opportunities. They don't necessarily have the funding needed to proceed with exports. With all the mechanisms in place, we must do more and better.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic developmentGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60771066077107RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1010)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Megyery.[English]Ms. Greenwood, my colleague raised some private sector research and I've seen that research, as well as others, as I'm sure you have. Significant private sector research demonstrates the potential impact of U.S. withdrawal from a North American free trade agreement. As you mentioned at the beginning of your testimony, that was a very real possibility at the beginning of these negotiations.I refer here to Scotiabank, which said that a U.S. withdrawal from NAFTA would have created a situation where “the Canadian economy would stand a strong chance of falling into a recession”. Similarly, the Royal Bank of Canada raised alarm bells.The research appears clear to me that the preservation of a free trade agreement with our largest trading partner can't be understated. I was wondering if you could comment on that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077108607710960771106077111KathyMegyeryMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1010)[English]I completely agree with you.The question is, what are the possible scenarios? You as policy-makers quite rightly look at that. It's not just whether we like the new agreement better or whether we like it less than the current agreement. The question is what happens if you don't go along with this agreement that you've been negotiating for the last year. What does the United States do then? What does Mexico do?You're right that the current situation is quite volatile. You can't underestimate the current occupant of the Oval Office in retaliation, in self-inflicted wounds in the United States, with the purpose of gaining leverage or punishing our partners and our allies.It's the largest economic relationship in the world, and it hangs in the balance, quite frankly, with this agreement.From a United States point of view, what the policy-makers look at is this: If we can't get to an agreement with Canada and Mexico, our neighbours and close allies, how are we going to trade with the rest of the world? As goes the U.S. economy, so goes the economy of our friends and neighbours.We really are interlinked. There is quite a huge stake in our thriving together with this agreement.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements607711260771136077114607711560771166077117RachelBendayanOutremontJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram (Regina—Wascana, CPC): (1010)[English]Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us here today.Ms. Greenwood, I would like to address some of the concerns you mentioned in your opening statements. I am completely confident that the House of Commons is going to pass the new NAFTA. You seemed a bit uncertain of that in your opening statement. Certainly the Conservatives, and I'm sure the other parties, will support this agreement.You also mentioned the importance of certainty in the marketplace so that businesses can function. The new NAFTA has a lifetime of 16 years and then it will be up for renewal. What can the Government of Canada and politicians do over the lifetime of this 16-year agreement to facilitate a greater degree of certainty in the marketplace so that businesses can do business?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077120607712160771226077123Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1010)[English]Institutionalizing our agreements as much as we can is a key to extending the life of the agreement. Going deeper on things such as regulatory mutual recognition, all the details in how we collaborate, how our regulators work together or work at cross purposes, those are the types of things that will help ensure that the agreement lasts well beyond the sunset period.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077124MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1010)[English]Could you talk a bit about the relationship, the back and forth between the business community and the government? Should we be having more regular meetings? What can we do to facilitate all of that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6077125MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1010)[English]We believe that dialogue with all of your stakeholders and constituents, including the business community, workers and advocates from all walks of life is a good practice in a democracy, and we try to facilitate that, as many of you have experienced.Having an honest dialogue where you can exchange ideas and concerns and help educate each other is really important. By the way, we believe it's not just the politically elected officials and their staff, but also the civil servants, the back and forth between the civil servants in our three respective countries, to figure out where there are areas in which they can learn from each other and recognize each other's regulations. That's a huge area of co-operation that in some areas goes well and in some areas needs a lot of improvement.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60771266077127MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1015)[English]You also raised the possibility of Bernie Sanders being the next president after November. What advice could you give to the Government of Canada to facilitate free trade and cross-border trade in the event that we see Bernie Sanders in the White House in November?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077128MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1015)[English]The Government of Canada—and not just the government but all of Canada, Canada as a country—did an extraordinarily good job after the election of President Trump, which is not something that I think anybody, including Donald Trump, predicted. The whole-of-Canada approach to engagement in the United States to remind all types of people, inside the Beltway and outside the Beltway, of how interconnected we are was a really good effort. It wasn't just one party or another. It wasn't just federal leaders. The premiers and mayors were involved. It was quite a comprehensive effort to remind Americans that we are in this together and that you can't just turn your back on Canada.That type of intensive effort to help continually remind Americans is something that we do at the Canadian American Business Council, but it's also something that is incredibly important for you, as policy-makers, in your travels and in your interactions with your counterparts.I would imagine that type of effort would continue regardless of the outcome of this year's presidential election here.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States relationsCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077129607713060771316077132MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1015)[English]I'll be very brief. I have a question for the representatives from Quebec.You have raised the issue of the dumping of aluminum from Mexico. Could you briefly give us an idea of some of the tricks they play to get Chinese aluminum into the Canadian and American markets by going through Mexico?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements60771366077137Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekCharlesMilliardCharles-MilliardInterventionMr. Charles Milliard: (1015)[Translation]I didn't fully understand your question. However, we discovered that, between May and July 2019, Mexico obtained its aluminum directly from China. Unfortunately, the new agreement hasn't resolved this issue. The steel issue has been resolved, but the Canadian government must verify the situation, because we've seen an increase. Chinese aluminum imports into the United States have decreased by 60%, whereas Chinese aluminum imports into Mexico have increased by 240% in a few months. We can see that Mexico is really exploiting this gap—Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoMilliard, CharlesTrade agreements6077139Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya (Nepean, Lib.): (1015)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. My question is for Ms. Greenwood.Ms. Greenwood, before this new NAFTA, we had the old NAFTA for decades, but the trade between Canada and the U.S. has not gone up much. It has remained fairly stable. To quote some numbers, in 2011 Canadian exports were at $315 billion, and in 2019 they were at around $319 billion, so basically Canadian exports to the U.S. have remained stable. U.S. exports to Canada are also stable, between $281 billion and $291 billion. Even with this new agreement, do you foresee the trade undergoing any dramatic change? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements607714260771436077144Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1015)[English]If you're looking at statistics about whether or not the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement has impacted trade volumes, and then NAFTA, I think you have to actually go back to the 1965 Auto Pact and look at how free trade between our two countries—and then when we added Mexico—has created what is really the largest and most prosperous economic region in the world. Once you have the tremendous growth—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60771456077146ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1020)[English]I understand. It does create a very stable economic zone, probably the biggest in the world. I understand that, but it has not increased the trade amongst these three countries. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077147MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1020)[English]Are you saying that you don't think the North American Free Trade Agreement has increased trade between our three countries?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077148ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1020)[English]Exactly. It has remained stable for quite some time.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077149MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1020)[English]Well, I think the agreement itself actually did increase trade quite a lot. I think what you have to look at with the modernized agreement are cross-border data flows, professional services and some of the digital worlds. There are all kinds of areas where, were you not to modernize the agreement, you would see a backsliding, because the original NAFTA didn't address some of the more modern elements of the economy. We know that there is an awful lot of competition that occurred—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60771506077151ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1020)[English]I'm sorry. You mentioned that the agreement didn't address certain modern elements of the economy. Can you elaborate on that, please?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077152MaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscottGreenwoodMaryscott-GreenwoodInterventionMs. Maryscott Greenwood: (1020)[English]Sure. When the original Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement was passed, and then when the North American Free Trade Agreement was passed, e-commerce didn't exist. Now, e-commerce fuels a lot of our economy and a lot of different elements of how small businesses and large businesses operate and do business together.The original NAFTA didn't address any of that. There are things like how we manage data, which is a really important topic. It's important in a lot of different areas that are subject, I'm sure, to reviews from a privacy point of view. There are all sorts of different elements of data, but the new North American free trade agreement does address elements like data flows and data localization, and that's enormously important in the economy today.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementElectronic commerceGovernment billsTrade agreements60771536077154ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1020)[English]Thank you.My next question is for you, Mr. Milliard. You talked quite a bit about the aluminum sector and how we need more protection for the aluminum industry here in Canada, but the aluminum industry has not grown for quite a long time. If I am not wrong, during the last 15 years only one new smelter was added in Canada. Even with this stable market that is there, do you see the aluminum sector increasing investments and increasing its capacity, not only to cater to the North American market but also to look for other markets in the world?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements607715560771566077157MaryscottGreenwoodCharlesMilliardCharlesMilliardCharles-MilliardInterventionMr. Charles Milliard: (1020)[Translation]Good question.However, we're more concerned about GHG emissions, and this will continue over the next few years. The Quebec market, particularly the aluminum market, is developing technology to make aluminum almost carbon neutral. This could increase—Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGreenhouse gasesMilliard, CharlesTrade agreements60771586077159ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1020)[English]I'm sorry, but my question is not about that. Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077160CharlesMilliardJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekCharlesMilliardCharles-MilliardInterventionMr. Charles Milliard: (1020)[Translation]I was saying that Quebec aluminum will become more and more appealing because it's clean aluminum. Given the climate crisis, I believe it will become more and more appealing to sell on the markets.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGreenhouse gasesMilliard, CharlesTrade agreements6077164Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1020)[Translation]My question is again for the representatives of the Fédération des chambres de commerce du Québec. If people from Quebec are here, we might as well make the most of it.I want to acknowledge Mr. Lyonnais, whom I've known for years. I hope that he's doing well.You said earlier that this agreement wasn't perfect, but that it was the lesser of two evils under the circumstances. This agreement contains many new provisions, including a chapter on the environment. However, this chapter is very weak. We know that the environment is, in many ways, the issue of the day.Would you be ready to say that this agreement, unfortunately, doesn't meet the standards of an agreement in 2020?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6077166607716760771686077169Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery: (1020)[Translation]Good question. We surveyed our members regarding this agreement. The survey very strongly indicated that industries are afraid of losing their competitiveness because of this agreement. That's the message that we want to get across today.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsTrade agreements6077170Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1025)[Translation]You're basically saying that, with respect to aluminum, there hasn't been any progress in relation to the former NAFTA when there should have been, and that there has been a setback for agriculture. That's your assessment to some extent.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077171KathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery: (1025)[Translation]We must ensure that compensatory measures are put in place and implemented, because in the case of the other agreements, these measures are slow to take effect.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements6077172Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotCharlesMilliardCharles-MilliardInterventionMr. Charles Milliard: (1025)[Translation]I was simply saying that, regardless of the growth of the aluminum industry, the bulk of this industry is in Quebec. I think that organizations such as ours must highlight the importance of preserving the strength of this industry in Quebec. The federal government must remain vigilant with regard to both compensatory measures and diplomatic efforts to promote this industry, regardless of its growth.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMilliard, CharlesTrade agreements6077175Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1025)[Translation]I'll continue on the same topic.What should the federal government do to promote the aluminum industry, both in Quebec and in British Columbia?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60771796077180Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKathyMegyeryKathyMegyeryKathy-MegyeryInterventionMs. Kathy Megyery: (1025)[Translation]We fear that Mexico is importing aluminum from China and processing this aluminum in a very minor way so that it will be considered aluminum made in the signatory countries. We must keep a very close eye on this situation so that this doesn't happen, because this would really reduce aluminum exports to the United States and Mexico.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6077181DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1025)[Translation]Do we have the necessary data to know how much aluminum from China is entering Mexico? Should the federal government put measures in place to ensure that it has the necessary information?Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoTrade agreements6077182KathyMegyeryCharlesMilliardCharlesMilliardCharles-MilliardInterventionMr. Charles Milliard: (1025)[Translation]The information is already available. As I was saying, between May and July 2019, aluminum exports from China to the United States decreased by 60%, whereas exports from China to Mexico increased by 240% and exports from Mexico to the United States increased by 260%, all in just a few months. We wanted this issue addressed in the free trade agreement. The steel matter was addressed. However, unfortunately, because of the unclear definition of aluminum, we're still concerned about this issue.CUSMA stipulated a minimum of 70% North American content. Given the failure to address the lack of clarity with respect to aluminum, this type of unfortunate consequence could happen again. However, there are still legislative foundations. The government must work with the Americans and Mexicans to ensure that they comply with the minimum content of 70%. That's our option for now. We would have preferred something stronger, such as the protection provided for steel. We don't have this, and we must take steps in that direction. That's what we can do for the time being.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChinaDumping of importsGovernment billsMexicoMilliard, CharlesTrade agreements60771836077184DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMichelLeblancMichel-LeblancInterventionMr. Michel Leblanc (President and Chief Executive Officer, Chamber of Commerce of Metropolitan Montreal): (1035)[Translation]Good morning. Thank you for your invitation. If I had received it sooner, I could have joined you.The Chamber of Commerce of Metropolitan Montreal has been in place for nearly 200 years to represent the business community of Metropolitan Montreal. For 36 years, we've been connecting businesses to export markets. To do so, we're supported by the Government of Canada through Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions. We raise funds from businesses and the private sector. We're also supported by the Government of Quebec.This experience in international markets first led us to understand the importance of the American market. For decades, Montreal's business community has been acutely aware of the importance of American markets, both for their growth and supply and, in the case of many businesses, for the efficiency of their production chain. This chain is well integrated and it crosses the border in both directions. As a result, for more than 20 years, the Chamber of Commerce has supported the implementation of free trade agreements in a sustainable, strong and permanent manner. From our point of view, the agreement with the United States is obviously the cornerstone of our economic development.Seventy percent of Quebec's exports are destined for the United States. We estimate that 20% of Quebec's GDP depends on this fluid trade relationship with the United States. Over the years, the number of jobs here directly related to trade with the United States has grown steadily. In many cases, these positions are very well-paying jobs, either in the Montreal region or throughout Quebec.The free trade agreement that needed to be renewed and that became CUSMA was crucial. We supported this renewal from the beginning. In addition, nearly two years ago, we invited 24 chamber of commerce leaders from major North American cities—eight leaders from the United States, eight from Canada and eight from Mexico—to Montreal to discuss what we could do to ensure that the agreement was renewed. We were extremely pleased to see the progress made and, ultimately, the renewal of an agreement.As part of the renewal of this agreement, we've heard that things could have been even better, particularly with regard to aluminum. Similarly, during the negotiation of the agreement with the European Union, issues arose among agricultural producers. We believe that no agreement is perfect and, in this case, we probably have the best agreement that we could have hoped for with the United States. We believe that some areas could have been improved, with regard to aluminum, for example. However, our challenge is to find out how we can help the aluminum sector and not in any way to block, reject or delay the implementation and ratification of the agreement.Our message to you and to all politicians is that there's no ambiguity from the point of view of the economy of Quebec, the Montreal region and Montreal-based businesses, and that the agreement must be ratified without delay and implemented as quickly as possible.Thank you.Aluminum industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementChamber of Commerce of Metropolitan MontrealGovernment billsTrade agreements60771936077194607719560771966077197607719860771996077200Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew (Researcher and Editor, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives): (1040)[English] Thanks very much to the committee on behalf of the CCPA for the opportunity to present here on the CUSMA ratification legislation.The CCPA is Canada's longest-standing independent research institute. In fact, we're celebrating our 40th anniversary this year. From our earliest days, the CCPA has rooted its policy recommendations in values of social justice and environmental sustainability. That goes for our trade and investment research as well. We've been recently working internationally on the NAFTA negotiations with some friends in the United States and Mexico as well.I'd like to start by agreeing with something that Michael Geist said to the committee last week, which is that the most important thing here is maybe not the implementing legislation itself, but the impact that the agreement is going to have on Canadians and Canadian public policy in the future. This is something that I think multiple witnesses have brought up as well.At this point, Parliament obviously has little leverage to alter the CUSMA. Still, there are steps that Canada can take on its own without reopening the deal to enhance the treaty's positive features and to mitigate the harm from its worst. I'm going to briefly list some of those here today.The first issue is making medicines more affordable. The original intellectual property rights chapter in CUSMA would have required Canada to increase data protection term limits on biologic drugs from eight to 10 years. Biologics are increasingly important for the treatment of Crohn's disease, rheumatoid arthritis and many other illnesses. The Parliamentary Budget Officer predicted that the original CUSMA data exclusivity extension would have increased their costs through public and private drug plans by about $160 million a year.Thanks to U.S. Democrats, that change was dropped from the agreement. The Democrats also successfully removed provisions in CUSMA that would have facilitated patents for new uses on existing drugs—the evergreening issue—which blocks cheaper generics from hitting the market.Canada should build on these victories to get serious about the high costs of medicines here in Canada. We can do this by moving forward on the proposals to improve the way that we regulate brand name drug prices. Health Canada estimates, for example, that simply by removing the U.S. and Switzerland from the basket of countries it uses to determine prices in Canada, we could save, on average, about $1.2 billion a year in drug costs. Second, I think we should swiftly adopt a universal, single-payer pharmacare program, as recommended by the government's expert panel on pharmacare, since this would significantly reduce drug costs by increasing the bargaining power of public buyers. Both of these measures are already in the sights of the USTR, for example, which is looking to pressure Canada not to introduce these things, because their pharma industry will take the hit on them. So I think we need to move fast.The second issue is on enforcing labour rights in the new CUSMA. As the committee has heard from several witnesses already, CUSMA's labour provisions are a significant improvement on NAFTA. The challenge to all three countries now is enforcement.Beyond a commitment to receive and consider public complaints of labour violations in Canada, Mexico or the U.S., CUSMA's labour provisions are enforceable only through government-to-government dispute settlements. For a number of reasons, this isn't ideal. Governments can't always be relied on to bring cases forward on behalf of workers.A way that Canada could address this would be to set up an independent, domestic complaint process that would allow labour unions, citizens and citizen groups to initiate complaints when international labour standards are violated. There should be an impartial body that could hear these complaints in the same way that impartial bodies hear procurement complaints under other parts of trade agreements. If they're credible, the complaints will move forward no matter what.On environment and the climate emergency, we would say that the new NAFTA is decidedly less satisfactory. This reflects, obviously in part, the fact that we were negotiating with a climate-denying U.S. administration. Still, the CPTPP, the trans-Pacific partnership, and the EU trade deal are not all that much better on the environment, so not all of the blame can go on the obstructionism of the U.S. administration.CUSMA's environmental chapter is technically enforceable through state-to-state dispute settlement, but again, what's the likelihood? Its obligations are so weak it really hardly matters. Outside of a few hard rules regarding matters like fisheries subsidies and wildlife trafficking, the chapter's commitments are mostly vague and voluntary. It also contains a gigantic loophole in the sense that it only applies to three federations, three federal states. It only applies to the federal level in all three countries.CUSMA's most significant step forward on the environment was getting rid of ISDS, the investor-state dispute settlement process. Canada has faced dozens of ISDS cases, more than any other country in the NAFTA region, and many of those have challenged legitimate, lawful and non-discriminatory environmental and resource management decisions. The elimination of ISDS in CUSMA is indeed important, as Minister Freeland told committee last week, and it should be precedent setting. The challenge now is how Canada removes ISDS from its many dozens of investment treaties with other countries.(1045)I want to speak a bit about deregulation in CUSMA. CUSMA's chapters and annexes dealing with how governments regulate in general have gotten relatively less attention in all three countries than other parts of the agreement, yet they may prove to be as significant and controversial as ISDS became in NAFTA. Remember, we didn't know much about investor-state dispute settlement when NAFTA was signed or how it would operate. The same logic is at play with the good regulatory practices chapter, which, for the first time in any free trade agreement, locks in a very specific ideology about regulation, which says that commerce should reign supreme and precaution should take a back seat or be thrown to the wind.Central regulatory agencies, for example Treasury Board here or OIRA in the United States, are required in CUSMA to ensure that federal agencies avoid unnecessary restrictions on competition in the marketplace when they're deciding on appropriate health or environmental protections. There is significant potential for multinational companies to abuse a new notice and review process in CUSMA, which requires regulators to seek and respond to any recommendation to modify or repeal a regulation that is set to create a burden on business.Global producers of chemicals, pesticides, pharmaceuticals, GMOs, cosmetics, tobacco, food additives, etc., are continually disputing good science on the risks that their products pose to human health and the environment. Now under CUSMA, a government could be taken to dispute settlement, by another country on behalf of one of its industries for example, for sustained or recurring unwillingness to heed corporate complaints about public interest regulations. The so-far voluntary Canada-U.S. regulatory co-operation council, a process that is now enshrined in CUSMA, can lead to delays in removing known toxins, known carcinogens, bioaccumulative compounds and endocrine disruptors from consumer products due to pressures to harmonize across borders for the sake of commerce, again, built up into the good regulatory practices chapter.As the CCPA's former executive director Bruce Campbell has expertly shown, such pressures led to the downward harmonization of rail safety standards in Canada and aviation safety standards, leading to the tragedies of Lac-Mégantic and the Boeing disasters. In theory, CUSMA's good regulatory practices chapter leaves the door open for government to regulate in a more cautionary, protective way, however the primary objective of the chapter is clearly to reduce the burden on business. In fact, regulatory co-operation is defined in CUSMA as, first and foremost, a means to facilitate and promote economic growth, not as a means to enhance public protections.It's more important than ever, therefore, that Canada counterbalance the deregulatory pressures in this agreement and other free trade agreements by enshrining the precautionary principle in law. A directive reasserting our regulators' authority to give the benefit of the doubt to protecting public health; removing potentially toxic substances from circulation, plastics for example; protecting animal populations; etc., would fit most Canadians' understanding of what good regulation means.In conclusion, CUSMA is a mixed bag, at least from a progressive point of view. But is it a model for future Canadian trade deals? We would say no, not at all. Canadians recognize that securing this deal was a defensive measure. Despite the new agreement, just like NAFTA, our access to the U.S. market remains precarious. The U.S. is the most powerful country in the world. It will do what it wants to do. There is no way out of this reality for Canada. Canada's challenge now is to find ways to work around and outside of CUSMA to improve working standards and environmental protections across North America, lower drug costs for Canadians, rapidly decarbonize our economy in line with the Paris Agreement commitments and fully recognize the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples on a path to real reconciliation.Thanks very much.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Centre for Policy AlternativesCostsDeregulationEnvironmental protectionGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementPatented medicinesPatentsPharmacarePharmaceuticalsPrescription drugsSafetyTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions607720360772046077205607720660772076077208607720960772106077211607721260772136077214607721560772166077217607721860772196077220607722160772226077223Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit (Treasurer and member of the Board of Directors, Dairy Processors Association of Canada): (1050)[Translation]Good morning, committee members. On behalf of the Dairy Processors Association of Canada, I want to thank you for the invitation to appear this morning to discuss the bill to implement the Canada—United States—Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA, and the impacts of the agreement on Canada's dairy processing industry.I'm the treasurer and an executive member of the board of directors of the Dairy Processors Association of Canada. I'm also the senior vice-president of institutional affairs and communications at Agropur, the largest dairy cooperative in Canada. With me today is Mathieu Frigon, our president and chief executive officer.This morning, we first want to bring to your attention to the harm that CUSMA will cause to our industry. We then want to focus on the government mitigation measures that would help our industry adjust to the new market environment that we're now facing as a result of CUMSA and other recently signed agreements.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryDairy Processors Association of CanadaGovernment billsTrade agreements607722660772276077228Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon (President and Chief Executive Officer, Dairy Processors Association of Canada): (1050)[English] As the second-largest food processing industry in Canada, dairy processing contributes more than $14 billion annually to the country's national economy. Dairy processors directly employ 24,000 Canadians in 471 facilities across the country, with an aggregate payroll of $1.2 billion. Our industry is a major employer in rural and urban communities, providing high-paying jobs to middle-class Canadians.Canadian dairy processors have invested $7.5 billion over the past decade in their business. This includes capital investment to expand and update existing facilities as well as to build new ones to support increased production. It also includes investment in research and development to spur innovation and bring new products to market.Dairy processors are dedicated to investing in a vibrant industry to support Canadian jobs and the Canadian economy. However, recent trade agreements threaten to curb this growth and diminish the long-term competitiveness of the Canadian dairy industry.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryDairy Processors Association of CanadaFrigon, MathieuGovernment billsTrade agreements607722960772306077231DominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1050)[Translation]At full implementation, access granted under CUSMA, in addition to existing concessions pursuant to other agreements, will represent about 18% of our Canadian market. When considering the latest three trade agreements, Canadian dairy processors will lose $320 million per year on net margin once the agreements have been fully implemented.On top of the market access concessions, CUSMA includes a clause that imposes export caps on worldwide Canadian shipments of milk powder, protein concentrates and infant formula. For example, for skim milk powder and milk protein concentrates, a cap of 55,000 tonnes will be imposed for the first year, and 35,000 tonnes for the second year.Considering that, in the 2017-18 dairy year, Canada exported more than 70,000 tonnes of skim milk powder, there's no question that a clause in CUSMA limiting our exports worldwide will drastically impact Canadian dairy processors and domestic milk supply requirements from Canadian dairy farms. We estimate that the export caps could result in an annual loss of $60 million for dairy processors.We also want to note the extremely peculiar aspect of imposing caps on Canadian exports of milk powder to all countries, including countries that aren't part of the Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement. This is a first in an international trade agreement, and a dangerous precedent for Canada.One way for the government to mitigate the negative impact of the export caps is to ensure that CUSMA enters into force on August 1, 2020, or later, so that the industry operates an additional full year under an export cap of 55,000 tonnes.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryDairy Processors Association of CanadaExportsGovernment billsMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements60772326077233607723460772356077236MathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1055)[English]To mitigate the negative impact of the increase in market access under CUSMA, we propose a twofold approach: first, the allocation of dairy import licences to Canadian dairy processors; and second, a dairy processor investment program.We want to reiterate today that dairy import licences, commonly known as dairy TRQs, must be allocated to dairy processors. Dairy processors possess the expertise and the distribution network to import a wide variety of dairy products that complement the domestic offering, as opposed to replacing it. The government must refrain from repeating the same mistake it made for CETA, where it allocated more than half of the CETA cheese TRQ to non-dairy stakeholders such as retailers and brokers. Those non-dairy stakeholders do not have a vested interest, as dairy processors do, in importing dairy products that would minimize the impact on existing production line and manufacturing platforms in Canada without displacing Canadian farm milk. In addition, dairy processors continue to invest, maintain and generate well-paying jobs across the country, particularly in rural areas. Additional imports that are poorly planned or poorly targeted will undermine the survival of many businesses.The second mitigation tool we recommend is a dairy processor investment program. The diary-processing industry is made up of businesses of various sizes and product mixes, all of which will experience the impact of these trade agreements in different ways. As such, we recommend that the government create a program for dairy investment and compensation that would aim at supporting investment in dairy-processing capacity, competitiveness and modernization. That program would include tools such as non-repayable investment contributions and refundable tax credits. The program would work on a matching principle basis. In order to receive funds, a dairy processor would have to commit to making investments here at home.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryDairy Processors Association of CanadaFrigon, MathieuGovernment billsImportsInvestmentTrade agreements607723760772386077239DominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1055)[Translation]Last year, recommendations were submitted to the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food by the mitigation working group—created by the government in October 2018—on programs to address the financial impact of the three trade agreements on the dairy processing sector. We actively participated in this work. We made recommendations based on the government's commitment to provide full and fair compensation to the sector, meaning to both dairy producers and dairy processors.We're hopeful that the coming budget will instill much needed confidence in the future of dairy processing through an announcement regarding a dairy processing investment program.Rightly done, these two measures—the allocation of import quotas to processors and a dairy sector investment program—taken together could fairly and fully compensate Canada's dairy processing industry for the negative impact of the trade agreements. Only through these types of mitigation measures will the dairy processing industry be able to safeguard existing jobs and significant investments in Canada, while continuing to develop our future.Thank you for your time and consideration. We're ready to answer your questions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryDairy Processors Association of CanadaGovernment billsImportsInvestmentTrade agreements6077240607724160772426077243MathieuFrigonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis (Essex, CPC): (1055)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair, and to all the witnesses for coming out today.Let me start by saying we certainly are the party of free trade. It's not our intention at all to hold up CUSMA in any way, but we also have to do our due diligence. It's for our families, our businesses and our country. That's why we ask a lot of these questions. As many of you will know, unlike the U.S. Congress that was provided with an in-depth economic study, Canadian parliamentarians have received no analysis despite repeated requests. We've had to depend on other studies, most recently the C.D. Howe Institute's report and the testimony before this committee.Some industry leaders have described CUSMA in less than glowing terms, saying the deal is better than no deal, while others have offered their enthusiastic support. Most have welcomed the stability it will provide after three years of uncertainty. Some have said the devil is in the details.To the chamber of commerce, sir, you represent a number of sectors in Quebec. Does the level of enthusiasm for this agreement differ from sector to sector?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsProvince of QuebecTrade agreements6077246607724760772486077249Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMichelLeblancMichelLeblancMichel-LeblancInterventionMr. Michel Leblanc: (1100)[English]It does, because it's not the same, but in general, it's a very high level of enthusiasm. It's not equal in every sector, but as a community, it is really behind this accord.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsProvince of QuebecTrade agreements6077250ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1100)[English]Have you or has the chamber done its own economic impact analysis? Does it line up with the C.D. Howe's assessment that Canada's GDP will drop by 0.4% and that the Canadian economy will lose up to $10 billion?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements6077251MichelLeblancMichelLeblancMichelLeblancMichel-LeblancInterventionMr. Michel Leblanc: (1100)[English]No. From various exchanges that I've had over the years, the impact of not having an agreement was immense. If we had numbers, they were more about the impact on our export businesses, on our companies here, if we were not to have such an agreement with the U.S. Of course, the CGI of Montreal, the Couche-Tarde of Montreal, the Saputos of Montreal, are all businesses that are now very active in outside markets, including the U.S. Clearly, the signal from all of our companies was that the price we would have to pay as an economy if we were to not have an accord would be immense.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementEconomic analysisGovernment billsTrade agreements60772526077253ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1100)[English]I heard you say the word “export”. Does the chamber have any concerns about implementation, particularly the short 90-day time frame from ratification to implementation? Do you share the C.D. Howe Institute's concern about the potential for a thickening at the border, in other words, issues with tariffs, issues with the CBSA not having additional resources and/or funding to implement all this stuff?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077254MichelLeblancMichelLeblancMichelLeblancMichel-LeblancInterventionMr. Michel Leblanc: (1100)[English]We do have concerns, as always, when there are new agreements and new rules, that they will have an impact. We have what we call “trade missions”, and one of our most attended trade missions brings new exporters to the border, where they get a chance to understand the processes and the treatment of exports. Clearly, we expect over the next months to have lots of demand to make sure that everybody understands what, if anything, has changed. In effect, there will be probably an adaptation period, but again, this is seen as a positive evolution from our community's standpoint. We were very concerned that because of President Trump's position, we might not have such an agreement. We're very happy that we do have one, and we want to move forward as quickly as possible.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60772556077256ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai (Surrey Centre, Lib.): (1100)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you all for coming.I'll start with you, Mr. Trew. My question is on the ISDS. When it originally was implemented, a lot of people thought it would be helpful for Canadian companies and protect them against any regulatory changes that might be imposed in the U.S. Later on, it was actually the reverse. We faced more.Do you think the absence of that, though, might have some implications going forward, where it might get abused just because we might have taken an action thinking it was more discriminatory to Canadian businesses and less the other way around? Do you think that not having that dispute settlement system might pose a challenge in the future?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreementsUnited States of America6077260607726160772626077263Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1100)[English]If I understand the question, do you mean is it going to be more bad for Canadian business than for the United States if we don't have the ISDS?Mr. Randeep Sarai: Yes.Mr. Stuart Trew: The record is pretty bad for Canadian companies using ISDS to challenge U.S. policies. They've never won a case. I think that probably says something about how it works going up against a country as powerful as the United States. There are many opportunities, many means that Canadian companies have to assert their rights under U.S. law, their rights to do business in the United States, which are extensive. The U.S. legal system is one of the most established and elaborate in the world with respect to protecting private property. I don't think Canadian businesses are under any threat operating in the United States without ISDS.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreementsUnited States of America607726460772656077266RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1105)[English]Thank you. That's what I wanted to hear.In terms of labour, you said the new improvements are a lot better having it in there. Do you think there could be improvements on how we can access those? I think your concern was the fact that a government would have to bring the labour complaint. This would be at national levels, not on perhaps individual levels. How do you see the labour provisions being enforced?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions60772676077268StuartTrewStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1105)[English]The idea we're thinking through—and I just mentioned it briefly in my presentation—would be to have some kind of prima facie means by which labour unions, individuals or community groups could bring forward a challenge related to the labour protections and have it decided in an independent way. Is there a value to this? Is there a reason to move forward with this? If the panel said there was, and they do this similarly with procurement disputes, then the government would be obliged to take this forward to government-to-government dispute.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions60772696077270RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1105)[English]That is currently not in the system. That would be something that would have to be devised amongst the three countries.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions6077271StuartTrewStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1105)[English]Exactly.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions6077272RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89339RandeepSaraiRandeep-SaraiSurrey CentreLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SaraiRandeep_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Randeep Sarai: (1105)[English]My next question is to you, Mr. Leblanc.In terms of small and medium-sized businesses, how can you, in your experience as the chamber representative, increase the knowledge of and access to those new opportunities and, quite frankly, some of the existing opportunities that were there in NAFTA to help Canadians, especially SMEs, increase their businesses in the other two countries?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60772736077274StuartTrewMichelLeblancMichelLeblancMichel-LeblancInterventionMr. Michel Leblanc: (1105)[English]We do several things, and perhaps we could do more. Of course it always depends on the funding. I would send a message that the federal government can play a role here.First, at the entrepreneurship level, we try to put in place everything we can to have them “born global”, as we call it, which means that right from the inception and the development of their initial business plans, we incite and work with those SMEs to make sure they take into account the possibility of exporting, which means if they develop their website, to make sure it's transactional. From Quebec it can be transactional in English. Internationally we make sure that, if they hire people, they hire people with the intent eventually to develop their international markets. That's one.Second, we have lots of training activities, and as part of those training activities, as I was mentioning, we have all those groups that we take to the border. It's really to explain it and make it as simple as possible for those SMEs to see the American market as part of their backyard, part of their growth area.Last, we organize missions in the U.S., where we take SMEs.... Usually we do not take large companies—they don't need us—but we will take SMEs into the U.S., into the New York area or to Silicon Valley. There we facilitate with the personnel who are either from the delegation of Quebec, the embassies or the consulate. We work with them to make sure we develop those one-on-one contacts. The whole strategy is to make sure that, as quickly as possible, our SMEs realize that their growth opportunity is to have access to that market.Now with the new—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMarket accessSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements60772756077276607727760772786077279RandeepSaraiSurrey CentreRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1105)[Translation]My first question goes to Mr. Trew, from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.You are delighted with the disappearance of chapter 11, on the settlement of disputes between investors and states, which was fundamentally designed to ensure stability for investors at a time when different places had less stable governments. Basically, it was seen to threaten the ability to adopt social measures dealing with the environment and public health. It was realized that there were quite strong adverse effects, and Canada was the champion in terms of the number of claims against it. In those cases, the multinational is always the complainant and the state is always the defendant. These treaties have no recourse the other way around to protect citizens harmed by a multinational. This chapter in NAFTA was a first, but the measure has been imitated in basically all subsequent agreements.Do you believe that the disappearance of the chapter foreshadows anything good as things proceed? As of now, we cannot consider that it is a given when future agreements are signed.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements607728460772856077286Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1110)[Translation]Thank you very much for your question. I will answer it in English.[English]Yes, I really do agree with the minister that this should be precedent setting. Say what you will about whether the rule of law is as strong in other countries as it is in Canada, the fact is that Canadian companies have abused this system—like they did in Canada—to challenge completely legitimate environmental and resource management decisions.I would say that in the kind of world we're operating in, where it's becoming obvious that certain types of economic activity are harming the environment, contributing to the climate crisis and, in some cases, contributing to inequality in other countries—or at least not giving the benefits that are meant to come from investment from northern countries—we really need to think about scaling back or rebalancing the kinds of rights we have in trade agreements. Corporate rights are obviously very strong in these processes. We need to rebalance so that environmental rights, indigenous rights and human rights are much more prominent.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInvestor-state dispute settlementTrade agreements6077287607728860772896077290Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1110)[Translation]Thank you.My questions now go to the gentlemen from the Dairy Processors Association of Canada.You said that there has been compensation for many producers. That is often said, although, with the current agreement, no compensation has yet been paid. With preceding agreements, it took time, but payments were eventually made. But the processors were not compensated.First, what form would you like the compensation to take and in what timeframe?Then, how is your community reacting to the elimination of class 7? We know that milk protein has been an issue for a long time. I think you are from Agropur. Before it was politically fashionable to criticize the issue, you were one of the first to ban diafiltered milk, if I am not mistaken. The fact remains that a lot of processors have been using the practice for some time.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsGovernment compensationMilk proteinTrade agreements60772916077292607729360772946077295StuartTrewMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1110)[Translation]Yes, indeed, last summer, money was announced for dairy farmers only. Nothing was announced for dairy processors, and that was certainly a great disappointment for us, as we said in our brief.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryFrigon, MathieuGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements6077296Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1110)[Translation]Are you talking about the previous agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements6077297MathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1110)[Translation]Yes, I am not talking about CUSMA.We were disappointed. We hope that it will be in the next budget. As we said in our brief, we were part of the working group that looked at the financial impacts and the ways to mitigate them. We need an investment program and tariff quotas, import licences, as we call them, to be given to our members, the dairy processors.We would like compensation measures in two areas.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryFrigon, MathieuGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements607729860772996077300Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1110)[English]Mr. Trew, I just wanted to follow up on something that Mr. Sarai said at the end of his remarks. He said that what you were suggesting was something that would remain to be negotiated among the three parties.In terms of what you were saying, my understanding was that this was actually something Canada could do domestically without having to consult the other two parties. I just want to be clear, for the record, which version is true.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions60773056077306Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1110)[English] That's right, and I apologize if I implied we would negotiate. No, this would be something Canada could establish on its own. It could be made available, for example, to citizens from any country, possibly from Mexico and the United States, to bring cases. That's in the event that, for example, a similar process isn't established in the United States and Mexico. It shouldn't preclude people being able to enforce the labour rights that are in this agreement. Canada could be a leader there.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions6077307DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1110)[English]It might be a process that involves interested persons from the other parties, but it's something that Canada could do on its own to help mitigate some of the impact of this agreement.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions6077308StuartTrewStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1110)[English]Yes.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreementsWorking hours, terms and conditions6077309DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1110)[English]With respect to chapter 28, the NDP salutes the removal of investor-state dispute settlement clauses from NAFTA, but there's some concern that chapter 28 is quite prejudicial against public interest regulation.I'm wondering if there might be some remedial work that Canada could do on its own, including a more wide-ranging definition of who an interested party, or an interested person would be, so that it's not narrowly defined as someone with a business interest in the regulation, but also recognize the interests that citizens might have. It is with respect to the environment or indigenous people worrying about any infringement of their rights, or workers who are concerned about the effect that a regulation, or lack of regulation, of a particular sector might have for them.Could you offer some remarks to that effect in terms of how we might try to mitigate some of the potential negative impacts of chapter 28?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsRegulationTrade agreements607731060773116077312StuartTrewStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1115)[English]In one sense, yes, there's a lot of room in CUSMA for Canada to change how it regulates. The good regulatory practices chapter is meant to enshrine a very specific kind of pro-commerce way of regulating that does push the precautionary principle quite far down the list in terms of priorities.There are parts of the CUSMA that require Canada, in perpetuity, to regulate in the area of cosmetics, for example, in what they call a risk-based way, so it would be in contrast to a precautionary way in, say Europe, or other jurisdictions, or in a hazard-based way, which can be more protective of public health in other ways.For the most part, Canada could simply issue a cabinet directive, as it has done every few years now on regulation, changing the way it regulates, so that these other interest groups are brought more into the picture, and so that regulations do a better balance between the commercial interests of companies that will be affected by these rules and the interests of the environment, the animals, the people who are affected by some of the products that get put on the market.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsRegulationTrade agreements607731360773146077315DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1115)[English]As we look past this particular CUSMA process to future agreements, whether it's a Canada-China agreement, or Canada-U.K.—there's certainly talk about other kinds of agreements—how important do you think it is that we learn some lessons from this process?We were talking earlier with a witness from the United States who described that interplay between the executive and legislative branch in the United States. We've negotiated with the government to get it to be more transparent about the negotiating objectives up front, and to provide an economic analysis, as a matter of course, with future agreements when it tables ratifying legislation.What can we learn from what hasn't gone right with this process, and how important do you think early civic engagement is in order to get better deals for Canada in the future?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements607731660773176077318StuartTrewStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1115)[English]One thing that the CCPA and others have advocated for in the alternative federal budget for the past few years is that we need to rethink our trade policy, in general, for this era of climate emergency and growing inequality. We need to rebalance how these agreements work. Parliament has a role to play in that, and Parliament should have a stronger role in determining our objectives when we pursue a trade deal with Mercosur, or with China, or elsewhere. As it is now, it seems, like you said, you get a moment at the very end of the process to say yes or no, but you don't get any input into the mandate or the objectives of the Canadian government.Two things need to happen. We need to have hearings or consultations in Canada where we determine our trade agenda for the 21st century, taking into account things like the climate crisis and—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements607731960773206077321DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1115)[English]Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us today.My question is to Mr. Frigon and Ms. Benoit from the Dairy Processors Association. You said that $60 million will be the cost of the new export tariff to your industry. That's the cost of the export tariff that applies not just to the United States and Mexico but to the rest of the world. Can you give us an idea of what that means to the typical dairy processor? Is that a big hit to each dairy processor, or is it a minor inconvenience? C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements607732460773256077326Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1115)[English]Obviously that impact varies between processors, depending on their activities. I will talk to you about Agropur's perspective.We're a large player in Canada. We process quite a bit of solid-not-fat into skim milk powder and other products. I'll give you an example. In the last year, our organization exported close to 35,000 tonnes of skim milk powder. Therefore, it has a huge impact on our organization. It has a huge impact on those processors who process quite a bit of milk into these ingredients.The issue is how to adapt to it, what we're going to do with the solid-not-fat that is surplus to our Canadian requirements. That is why we're saying we need support to invest in the development of new technologies to manage that solid-not-fat.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements6077327607732860773296077330MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1120)[English]When did your group find out about this new dairy export tariff?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077331DominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1120)[English]We found out at the same time as everybody, because we were not consulted on this notion of putting a cap on exports to all the countries around the world. There was no consultation with us about the fact that Canada could consider limiting its exports to all the countries. That is something we'd never heard about and we were caught off-guard.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60773326077333MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1120)[English]Okay, but you must have found out sooner or later. Was it late last year, or in 2018? Do you remember when you were first made aware?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60773346077335DominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1120)[English]We found out when the agreement was announced.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077336MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1120)[English]Okay.How much do you expect your industry to pay to the new dairy export tariff?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60773376077338DominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1120)[English]In terms of processors, I can speak for our organization. We will not pay the 54¢ duty to export our surplus. We will not because it's not economically profitable to do that business.Therefore, at some point, companies such as our organization will have to make a decision on whether they buy the milk or not, because if we cannot export, we need to find another home for it. The question is, what is that home for that milk?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60773396077340MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1120)[English]Have the processors who will be paying the tariff had any consultations with the government about what the new revenue from that tariff will be used for?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6077341DominiqueBenoitMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1120)[English]We suspect there won't be any processors paying the tariff. I stand to be corrected, but that's our expectation at this point, because the tariff makes it uneconomical to export to foreign markets.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsFrigon, MathieuGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements6077342MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1120)[English]You said that with this new tariff in place the industry is going to have to make changes and adjust to this new reality. What plans does the industry have, moving forward, and what can the government do to help?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60773436077344MathieuFrigonDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1120)[English]As an industry, we have to comply with the elimination of class 7, and the industry is working on this right now. Then we have to limit our exports of those products to the quantities that were decided.Each and every company is now looking into its business plan to see what can be done. It's going to take investment. That's why we're looking for support to adapt to that new context.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60773456077346MichaelKramRegina—WascanaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan (Sault Ste. Marie, Lib.): (1120)[English]Thank you very much for the presentation today. It is very important for this 43rd Parliament to undertake this task.During the 42nd Parliament, we began a pre-study. We heard from a number of witnesses verbally and through written submissions. Among the groups of people who presented during our pre-study for NAFTA were the Dairy Farmers of Canada. I want to hear your thoughts on this particular statement by them, and whether you agree, disagree or want to expand upon it: Full and fair compensation, as committed by the federal government, is key to sustaining the dairy sector following concessions made in recent trade agreements. Maintaining previous import levels was the objective of dairy farmers.They also said that compensation was the government's response to trading off the Canadian dairy sector against other potential gains in recent trade deals.Could I have your comments on that statement? Do you agree with that?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements60773496077350607735160773526077353Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1125)[English] Yes, we agree with full and fair compensation for both dairy farmers and dairy processors.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryFrigon, MathieuGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements6077354TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1125)[English]Yes, very much so.Could you please explain this to me? I think it's important and critical for people not only in my riding of Sault Ste. Marie but across Canada to understand the importance of supply management. People need to wrap their heads around it. In particular, when Trump made the position very clear that his objective was to dismantle supply management, that was absolutely.... I come from a steel town. When he says something, whether it's on the section 232 tariffs on steel and aluminum or dismantling the dairy sector, I take those words seriously. They're not just comments made during a trade negotiation, as some may have thought at the beginning.How critical is the supply management system for the dairy sector? I think we have to get that on record for people who are watching on TV to understand. If he had met the goal of dismantling supply management, where would the dairy sector be today?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryGovernment billsSupply managementTrade agreements6077355607735660773576077358MathieuFrigonDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1125)[English] Obviously, as a co-operative—I'll speak for Agropur and put on my Agropur hat for few seconds—we are owned by dairy farmers. Our farmers expect that supply management is here to stay. There's no question about it. I think that in every trade negotiation supply management has been put at risk. Now the question is not if there's a deal or no deal. The question is about having fair and equitable compensation for processors. That's what we're looking for. We've been talking about it for a number of years now, and we're still waiting. We look forward to that compensation that was kind of promised, because we're facing a lot of challenges. Now, close to 18% of our market will be supplied by imports, and we need to continue to grow as a business, as an industry. Agropur, like other processors in Canada, is looking for growth, but they need support to adapt to those trade agreements that were signed. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryGovernment billsSupply managementTrade agreements607735960773606077361TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1125)[English]It's fair to say that if Trump had his way and dismantled the supply management system, the dairy industry would be dead in Canada—or nearly obliterated—without it.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryGovernment billsSupply managementTrade agreements6077362DominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1125)[English] The industry would suffer quite a bit.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryGovernment billsSupply managementTrade agreements6077363TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88944TerrySheehanTerry-SheehanSault Ste. MarieLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SheehanTerry_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Terry Sheehan: (1125)[English]Thank you for that. I think it's very important for people to understand how important it is. Stuart, I have a question for you. The first NAFTA deal was negotiated many years ago, a lifetime ago, as I call it, for a lot of people, and some of these people are in the room. Trump also wanted to have a sunset clause about every five years. The industries, all industries, said, “We've heard stability, stability, stability, and we would just be in a constant negotiation.” With the new provision, this deal lasts for 16 years with a review every six. In six years, you can start tweaking some of those things. What is your comment on that particular provision of the NAFTA deal, please?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLegislative reviewTrade agreements607736460773656077366DominiqueBenoitStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1125)[English]I don't have a huge amount to say on it other than it would be nice to make use of that period. It's six years away. We might actually get a period sooner, depending on how the election goes in the United States. As you've heard, we might be back negotiating in a few months. I think it would do well for us to take whatever opportunities we have, when it comes time to look at the agreement again, to see what's working and what's not working.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLegislative reviewTrade agreements6077367TerrySheehanSault Ste. MarieTerrySheehanSault Ste. Marie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1125)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.I wanted to dig down a little deeper perhaps, Mr. Benoit. My colleague brought up the desire by Mr. Trump to dismantle supply management. You're aware the original TPP, when that was arranged, had a 3.5% TRQ versus a 7% TRQ.If the original TPP, which would have included the NAFTA, had passed.... Basically, it was on the table to be signed 14 months before Mr. Trump was even sworn in. The Republicans had the majority in Congress and there were a lot of pro-trade Democrats who were ready to pass the deal, but it wasn't progressive enough for our guy. If the original TPP had been signed, would your company be in a better position now? Would the sector be in a better position now, or are they better off with the new CUSMA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsTrade agreementsTrans-Pacific Partnership6077372607737360773746077375Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1130)[English] I think the new CUSMA added three additional impacts to the TPP.In the TPP there was market access given to those countries, but in the CUSMA, not only did we increase the market access, because whatever was given to the TPP, including to the U.S., was maintained in TPP, but now in CUSMA we have conceded more market access. So that's one thing. Second, in CUSMA, we conceded the elimination of class 7, and third, we conceded an export cap to all the countries around the world.For DPAC, I think CUSMA brings in three additional impacts that were not present, in addition to what was in the TPP.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsTrade agreementsTrans-Pacific Partnership607737660773776077378ColinCarrieOshawaMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1130)[English]Perhaps I'll add a fourth one, the oversight clauses we find in the CUSMA agreement. We provide oversight to the U.S. government on all things dairy, basically, in Canada.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryFrigon, MathieuGovernment billsTrade agreementsTrans-Pacific Partnership6077379DominiqueBenoitColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1130)[English]I understand that government is trying to spin this as a win-win-win. I remember before the election we didn't have the economic impact studies and it was a victory for Canadians—a win-win-win. Sadly, the only Canadian lens we're getting that's up to date we got last Friday. We got the C.D. Howe report. Basically the original TPP would have been a net $4.3 billion to the Canadian economy, and the current CUSMA is going to be a $10 billion hit. The quandary we have before us, though—pretty much unanimous, our witnesses say—is that if we don't have an agreement it's even worse than that. We are trying to come up with the implementation part of it and the support part of it because ultimately this negatively affects families and businesses and sectors, so the government does have a role in helping that transition.I wanted you to maybe just dig down a bit more on the question my colleague asked about these caps on third parties. I would think that if the government gave away something for this agreement, they would have allowed Canadian industry to develop their products and export them in greater numbers to countries around the world.Could you comment a bit more, if you have numbers, on the potential loss that our industry is going to suffer, because now there is a limit even on what we can sell to countries outside the CUSMA agreement? Could you dig down a little more on those numbers?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077380607738160773826077383MathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieuFrigonMathieu-FrigonInterventionMr. Mathieu Frigon: (1130)[English]Yes, the impact would be $60 million, as we discussed earlier. As Dominique mentioned, the peculiar aspect is that it applies to all countries, and that's a first in a trade agreement. According to our legal counsel it has never happened before that an agreement between two or three countries would also impose export caps to all countries, even those that are not parties to the agreement. Definitely it will have a huge impact.That's why the implementation date of CUSMA coming into force will have an impact, because in year one, as we mentioned in our presentation, the cap is 55,000 tonnes. Year two it drops down to 35,000 tonnes. The date of coming into force is very important.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryExportsFrigon, MathieuGovernment billsTrade agreements60773846077385ColinCarrieOshawaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. With your permission, I will share my time with my colleague from the Green Party so that he can ask questions as well.As a proud Montrealer, though, I would like to turn to Mr. Leblanc, from the Chamber of Commerce of Metropolitan Montreal.Mr. Leblanc, I was very happy to hear you talk about our Montreal companies that are exporting abroad. In my constituency, as you may know, we have Mile End, Côte-des-Neiges and Outremont, where we see more and more exporting entrepreneurs, especially in future fields, like artificial intelligence.Do you share my view that the very existence of this modernized agreement is important in deepening our relationship with innovation centres such as San Francisco and Boston, and that it will allow our small businesses in Montreal to grow even faster?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInnovationMontréalSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements6077388607738960773906077391Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMichelLeblancMichelLeblancMichel-LeblancInterventionMr. Michel Leblanc: (1135)[Translation]Yes, absolutely. What is more, since last year, we have been sending additional missions to those areas. One mission called Ubisoft Women in Tech went to Silicon Valley to set up individual connections.As you said, the area of artificial intelligence has become a force in Montreal and, given American immigration policies, we are able to interest a lot of world-class talent in settling in Canada, specifically in the Montreal area. So we are in a situation where we are seeing our companies grow faster and develop relationships with the main innovation centres in the United States.Our challenge will be to create service companies here that are able to export. That is why the access obtained through free trade agreements is so essential. If we succeed in bringing the high-quality research here to market, we must have access to those markets, and this agreement makes that possible. So it is an excellent agreement for our economic base, specifically in innovation.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsInnovationMarket accessMontréalSmall and medium-sized enterprisesTrade agreements607739260773936077394RachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89485PaulManlyPaul-ManlyNanaimo—LadysmithGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ManlyPaul_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Paul Manly (Nanaimo—Ladysmith, GP): (1135)[English] Thank you very much for letting me share your time to ask some questions. My first question is for Mr. Trew. It's just about mitigating and enhancing the agreement, and whether you have some other suggestions. I'm wondering what kinds of processes and reporting you'd like to see on how the agreement is working for Canadians so that we can determine what the socio-economic impacts of the agreement are as we work towards these six-year review processes.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsOversight mechanismTrade agreements60773986077399Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekStuartTrewStuartTrewStuart-TrewInterventionMr. Stuart Trew: (1135)[English]To be honest, we haven't really thought through a review of that kind. From our perspective there's not a lot in there that we might review in the positive sense of whether, for example, the agreement is bringing down emissions across the region. What I'm saying is that there aren't those kinds of review mechanisms that we would necessarily have thought through.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsOversight mechanismTrade agreements6077400PaulManlyNanaimo—LadysmithPaulManlyNanaimo—Ladysmith//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89485PaulManlyPaul-ManlyNanaimo—LadysmithGreen Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ManlyPaul_GP.jpgInterventionMr. Paul Manly: (1135)[English]Okay.My second question is for Mr. Leblanc. I know that in Montreal you probably represent a lot of cultural industries. I know in my riding there are cultural workers who have to apply six months in advance to be able to do a tour in the United States, and they pay $600 to get their work permits. The American cultural workers who come to our border can bring their work permit to the border and pay a $10 fee and cross the border, and there isn't this kind of delay. I'm just wondering if you have any comments on that and also on the processes for CBSA for implementing the agreement and the kinds of regulations for importers and exporters in implementing the agreement, and trying to make that a seamless process in terms of training. BordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForeign workersGovernment billsRegulationTrade agreements607740160774026077403StuartTrewMichelLeblancMichelLeblancMichel-LeblancInterventionMr. Michel Leblanc: (1135)[English]Actually, your question is very interesting and has to be taken in the current context. We now have a very tight labour market in Montreal, and I would say in all of Quebec. That is in all sectors, including the cultural sector. In this period the possibility of having, let's say, a workforce come in from the U.S. would not be that disruptive. In the past it would have been.Clearly, the goal we should have when we look at that agreement would be to make sure that, as we move along, for any resources that reside in the U.S. that could be useful to develop our economic base—and we were talking about artificial intelligence a few minutes ago—we would want the process of coming here to be as seamless as possible. Of course, what you're stating is about service industries, people who go into the U.S. to service customers and to develop markets, and there are frustrations. The solution will have to be in the regulations as opposed to the agreement itself. BordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementForeign workersGovernment billsRegulationTrade agreements60774046077405PaulManlyNanaimo—LadysmithJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1135)[Translation]I will pick up the conversation where we left it just now.Let me quickly repeat my question.On the issue of milk proteins, I gather that the community has been divided for a long time in terms of importing American diafiltered milk. Basically, that is how we got the pesky class 7 in the agreement. Agropur was one of the first to ban the stuff.What is your position on the matter today?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsMilk proteinTrade agreements6077408607740960774106077411Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1140)[Translation]Class 7 has to be put in the context of the strategy for ingredients developed by the Canadian dairy industry to acquire the infrastructures and the means of producing in Canada the ingredients needed for processing.By eliminating class 7, the agreement has moved backwards and, as an industry, we all find ourselves dealing with this issue. It was diafiltered milk, but it is now, more broadly, producing ingredients in Canada at a price competitive enough to let us manufacture our products.So, the industry is working on it and it will clearly come at a cost. We will work with the solution when there is one. That is why we are currently looking for mitigation measures to allow us to absorb the effects, now that class 7 has been eliminated.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsMilk proteinTrade agreements607741260774136077414Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1140)[Translation]So, what's going on, as they say?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsMilk proteinTrade agreements6077415DominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1140)[Translation]Each of the companies has its business plan. For Agropur, I can state that we are going to continue to use dairy ingredients that are entirely Canadian. We made that commitment and we are going to stand by it.As for the industry, we have to work together to find solutions. What's going on? I can say that a lot of very hard work is going on between producers and processors. The dairy processors of Canada and the dairy producers of Canada are committed to finding a solution as a replacement for class 7.We have a huge task before us, just three years after class 7 was put into place. So we are going backwards. We are rolling up our sleeves and getting to work.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsMilk proteinTrade agreements607741660774176077418Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1140)[English]Monsieur Benoit, it's understood that given what's happening to Canada's dairy sector as a result of this deal, one of the best things the government could do would be to allocate 100% of the import permits to processors.If the government can't be convinced of that, do you think it would be fair to attach conditions to permits that were given to retailers so they're not using those permits to bring in products that compete with what Canadian dairy producers are already offering? In other words, they have to bring in products to the Canadian market that are genuinely new, as opposed to using them to drive down prices from Canadian producers.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsImportsMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements60774226077423Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDominiqueBenoitDominiqueBenoitDominique-BenoitInterventionMr. Dominique Benoit: (1140)[English]Our position is very clear. Import TRQs should be allocated to processors. I'll explain why. The why is that we can offer a product to consumers that is complementary to our Canadian offering, instead of offering consumers a product to replace a Canadian product.This is why we've been so insistent to the government to allocate those TRQs to the processing communities, because we're the ones who have skin in the game. We're the ones who have the plants that will reduce their own domestic production because of imports. If we have the opportunity to import with the TRQs, we will minimize the impact on our plants, our labour and the economic impact on the Canadian dairy industry. This is what we are aiming for.There's no rationale for the government to issue import TRQs to our customers. We continue and we are engaged in the consultation process that is in place right now, and we'll continue to push for that because this is just business common sense.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsImportsMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements607742460774256077426DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens (Chair, Dairy Farmers of Manitoba): (1200)[English]I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to speak here today. We are on a farm near Grunthal, Manitoba. That's about 80 kilometres south of Winnipeg. I am a third-generation dairy farmer. My grandparents came to Canada in the 1920s to start a new life and a family. My parents took over from their farm in the fifties. Since the sixties, when supply management came into effect, their income on the farm stabilized. With this increased stability, they were able to expand their farm and support the family. Supply management allowed dairy farms to contribute to a vibrant community. My brother and I and our families took over the family dairy farm, which is where we continue to farm today. The family farm made it possible for my brother and me to raise our families, continue to grow the farm, and continue to contribute to our local community.Today, as the chair of Dairy Farmers of Manitoba, I am representing 270 dairy farm families in the province. CUSMA will have a long-lasting negative impact on Manitoba's vibrant dairy industry. The concessions granted are ongoing perpetual losses. CUSMA is not a beneficial agreement for the Canadian and Manitoba dairy sectors. Dairy is one of the top two agricultural sectors in seven out of 10 provinces. Manitoba is not one of those provinces; however, this still has a significant impact in our province, considering that dairy processing is the fourth-largest component of food processing in our province. CUSMA allows increased access to foreign milk, removal of class 7, loss of sovereignty because of U.S. demand for oversight on the development of our future Canadian dairy policies, and a surcharge on Canadian dairy protein exports. There are deep local economic ramifications because of these concessions. The projected annual market loss for Manitoba in terms of additional market access is $8.4 million in revenue. The overall Canadian loss here is pegged at $190 million. That does not account for any implications due to the elimination of class 7 or the export restrictions. The American oversight into the Canadian dairy system is nothing less than a complete loss of sovereignty by allowing the U.S. to interfere in the development of future Canadian dairy policies. In Canada, of course, we're losing 3.9%, or 100,000 tonnes, of our dairy market to foreign milk and dairy products. This means that when you look at Canada as a whole, losing 3.9% amounts to pretty much wiping out Manitoba's dairy industry.The concessions agreed to in the CUSMA deal deeply impact the pillars of supply management, which are import control, production management and predictable imports. Like a three-legged milking stool, without one leg the stool falls. The impacts of CUSMA will not only harm the dairy industry in Manitoba, from farms to processors, but the long-term effects will also reduce our contributions to the GDP. Nationally, that's $19.9 billion. In Manitoba, that amounts to $582 million and jobs in the province, as there will be less need for locally supplied milk, which will be replaced by a foreign product. The loss of our farm production will have negative ripple effects across rural Manitoba. If our family-owned operations were terminated, there would be less demand for many service providers, such as veterinarians, mechanics and nutritionists, as well as less dependence on other agriculture commodities, such as Manitoba-grown feed barley or even canola meal used on dairy farms. However, those impacts do not cease in rural Manitoba. If less Canadian milk is being produced in Canada and is rather being imported from the U.S., our 12 processors would also be negatively impacted. The dairy industry across Manitoba sustains 7,955 full-time equivalent jobs. Those numbers would decrease. Additionally, this agreement halted new processing investment into Manitoba, as processors stopped to consider the impact on their operations and assessed the type of processing they could focus on in the future. It certainly has put the ice on some proposed investments. Therefore, the future of having another processor, or current processor expansion, is uncertain. Having increased dairy processing would lead to more sustainable jobs, ensure that more locally produced milk is processed provincially and increase Manitoba's GDP. (1205)Furthermore, increasing access to our Canadian market will have a negative impact on dairy farmers' share of the domestic milk market, a share that was the basis for investment decisions for our dairy farmers and for many young dairy farmers getting into the industry. Those dairy products will displace what would have otherwise been Canadian dairy and products made with Canadian milk, even if imports don't meet the same standards for safety and quality that Canadian dairy farmers provide to Canadians under the national on-farm program we call “proAction”. This is about giving up that portion of the domestic market and the government's commitment to provide compensation for those concessions.The oversight clause undermines Canadian sovereignty and Canada's ability to develop and manage Canadian policies without U.S. intervention. The U.S.A. will not need to provide similar levels of oversight into its system. This approach is yet another example of how CUSMA removes our competitive advantage and ties the Canadian dairy industry's hands to American decision-making. This should not be understated, and it will have a lasting effect on the domestic dairy sector. The sovereignty clause of CUSMA will undermine our ability to manage our own policies without American intervention. Having another country dictate our policies will tie our hands in our own industry by providing the Americans with the ability to intervene in our domestic policies.The final aspect of CUSMA is the restrictions of Canadian exports. Canada has agreed to the U.S. demands to effectively cap Canadian exports of skim milk powder, milk protein concentrates and infant formula. Added together, these measures limit our ability to grow the Canadian domestic market. The export clause ensures that the Canadian dairy industry's hands are tied from both sides. Not only is our industry losing our market share, but it also cannot export due to aggressive restrictions and surcharges.While the announced compensation package for the access granted for CETA and CPTPP was a first step in this regard, we are asking that the Canadian government provide dairy farmers, in the form of direct payments, the remaining seven years of full and fair compensation to mitigate the impacts of CETA and CPTPP, with that amount included within the 2020 budget's main estimates. We are also asking that the government deliver on its promise of full and fair compensation for the impacts of CUSMA.Efforts to mitigate the impact of the export charges need to be made. This could be achieved through administrative measures with the United States, even after the ratification of CUSMA. These caps would set a dangerous precedent for any Canadian product that could be exported, as a means of limiting Canada's competitiveness in world markets. Therefore, we are asking that the Canadian government work toward an administrative agreement with the American government to ensure that the export charges contained in CUSMA apply only to exports to the U.S. and Mexico, and not worldwide.lt is important to note that, should CUSMA enter into force before August 1—the beginning of the dairy year—the export thresholds for skim milk powder, milk protein concentrate and infant formula will see a dramatic decline of nearly 35% after only a few months. This would be another blow to the dairy market, which would not be able to benefit from a transition period. To enable a proper transitional period for the export thresholds, we ask that CUSMA not enter into force until after August 1 of this year.ln closing, I want to highlight the increased risks and the need for more resources to monitor and enforce trade and standards at the border as the level of imports increases. The Canada Border Services Agency does not currently have the training, tools or resources to effectively monitor what is coming into Canada. For example, the artificial growth hormone rbST is allowed in the United States dairy sector, whereas it is currently illegal in Canada due to animal health concerns. We are asking that increased resources, tools and training be provided to CBSA to improve its effectiveness in dealing with border issues in a timely and transparent manner.Thank you.BordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy Farmers of ManitobaDairy farmingExportsGovernment billsGovernment compensationMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements607743560774366077437607743860774396077440607744160774426077443607744460774456077446607744760774486077449607745060774516077452Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJoelPrinsJoel-PrinsInterventionMr. Joel Prins (Partner, Prima Dairy Farm): (1210)[English] Good afternoon. My name is Joel Prins, and I've been involved in the dairy industry my whole life. I grew up and currently farm outside of the small village of Warburg, Alberta, an hour southwest of Edmonton. My parents, like so many other dairy farmers in our area, both immigrated from the Netherlands to Canada in search of new opportunities. In the mid-1980s, they were able to put aside enough money to put a down payment on a small dairy farm that consisted of 37 cows and 160 acres of land. From that point on, they worked day and night to make sure they could raise me and my three younger brothers on the farm. As my brothers and I were growing up, we were taught many valuable lessons, from the importance of caring for animals to the importance of commitment and dedication to finishing tasks. In elementary school, my brothers and I would get up before school started and make sure to feed all the calves before racing back to the house to get ready to catch the bus. It was no different after school. We would often run off the bus to go help our parents in the field, raking or baling hay, or in the barn, milking cows. You could say that dairy farming was instilled into my brothers and me from a very young age, and I learned that it was a lifestyle, not just a job. With that mindset, as my brothers and I got older, we were able to continue to grow the farm to the current 400 cows that we milk today. The supply-managed system is the predominant reason we were able to thrive. Supply management allows farmers like my family to continue investing back into the industry, knowing that there will be stability into the future. It also ensures that we receive a fair price for the product we sell, and not rely on direct subsidies from the government for production, which dairy farmers in other countries rely on so heavily.For example, European farmers receive €55 billion in subsidies per year, and Americans paid $4 billion in subsidies in 2009. Canadian dairy farmers earn their income from the market, not from the government. We appreciate the government's compensation programs to alleviate some of the impact of our reduced market, but if we had our choice, we would much rather have a domestic market that's not influenced by trade deals, with no dairy compensation programs.Dairy farmers are also a big driver of the Canadian economy. The dairy industry continues to generate $20 billion towards Canada's GDP every year. Dairy farmers also greatly support our local rural economies. On our farm alone, we employ five local employees and create a lot of spin-off by purchases we make in the surrounding communities to help keep our rural economy strong.Overall, the dairy industry employs over 220,000 Canadians, from the farm to processing to the retailer, and all the steps in between. Not only does supply management employ locals, but it allows consumers to have the knowledge that their milk is local and that they are supporting the farms in their backyard. In poll after poll, it's clear that Canadians support local dairy farms and locally produced milk. This is reassuring to many, as Canadian milk has some of the highest standards in the world. What's worrisome is that foreign milk coming into Canada through these trade deals does not need to adhere to the same standards for production. On our farm, over the last two years, my family has been going through the steps of succession planning. My brothers and I are all starting young families of our own and want nothing more than to raise our kids on a dairy farm where we can teach them the values that they can only get from being on a farm. This succession planning required a great deal of trust in our supply-managed system and in the government, that they would continue to support our industry by standing up for it and protecting it. We all took on millions of dollars of debt, which will take many years to pay off. However, lately we question our decision of taking on that kind of risk. It seems that our industry is continually being put up as a sacrificial lamb in order to make a trade deal complete. Starting with CETA, followed by CPTPP and now the CUSMA deal, supply management in Canada has been eroding away. The current CUSMA deal alone is asking for 3.9% of our domestic market. When you add up the three deals, it equates to 18% of our domestic market by the year 2024, when everything is implemented. This market access dramatically impacts our farms and likely has a very minimal impact on the countries that have that increased access. (1215) For example, 3.9% access for an American dairy farmer is hardly a solution to their overproduction problem. The state of Wisconsin produces more milk than all of Canada, so this small access for them doesn't help their situation and dramatically hurts our local farms. Not only does the trade deal increase access to our domestic markets, but it also requires us to limit our class 7 milk.Other concessions included a worldwide export cap that limits Canadian dairy products from being exported globally. This is very worrisome, as the implications of this cap go beyond the three countries that the trade deal is negotiated around. Canada should be allowed to stand up for its own rights and trade implications in those countries instead of having our neighbouring countries dictate them for us.Beyond the increased market access, the elimination one of our classes of milk and a global cap on exports, most concerning is the fact that the Canadian dairy industry will also need to consult the United States for any domestic milk class policy changes. This is a severe breach of our Canadian sovereignty. The Canadian dairy industry should not need the approval of an outside country to make changes to a domestic policy. We feel this will impede our ability to adjust and react to market demands and to innovate. We will no longer have the ability to make decisions that serve the best interests of Canadians, since we will be required to consult with the U.S. before making policy changes. This policy does not serve the best interests of Albertans or Canadians. The economic effect of this clause is difficult to determine; however, one could assume that the U.S. will not support a policy that will see Canadians benefit in the face of the American dairy industry. Ask yourselves: Would the U.S. or Mexico have agreed to this if the roles had been reversed?The CUSMA trade deal has many negative impacts on us as a supply-managed dairy industry. Even with the deal still waiting to be signed, there have been many ramifications. Processors have been reluctant to re-invest in Canada, with some even pulling the plug on new projects that were steps away from being finalized. These are missed opportunities for growth in the Canadian economy.Even on the farm level, when speaking with fellow farmers, there's an uneasiness and reluctance about what to do next. I even had a few neighbours who decided to get out of the industry due to the increased stress that the trade deals brought upon them. They continue to point out that there are more trade deals to come and worry that we will be the final sacrificial piece once again. Even for my brothers and me, this trade deal has been weighing on our minds greatly. We just took over from our parents, and seeing our growth in our domestic market being given away every few years makes us discouraged and frustrated. How does an industry survive if you ask it to stagnate or decrease in size in order for foreign countries to bring in their products? This will not continue to work over the long run.In closing, I would like to say that dairy farmers just want to be able to make a living from their market, doing what they love to do without a constant threat that the government will continually sell them out in the next trade agreement. I personally want to be able to wake up 30 years from now and pass on a successful dairy to my son, and know that he would also be able to do that for his kids one day. I want to share the story of how our government stood behind our dairy farms and valued our contributions to this great country, but right now, I don't know if I'll be able to have that conversation, if we are continually faced with the roadblocks the government is putting up against our industry.Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak here today to highlight some of the implications of CUSMA for my dairy farm, dairy farms across Canada and what the future looks like for our industry.Thanks.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationPrima Dairy FarmSupply managementTrade agreements6077455607745660774576077458607745960774606077461607746260774636077464607746560774666077467607746860774696077470607747160774726077473607747460774756077476Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman (Chair, Saskatchewan Milk Marketing Board): (1220)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair. My name is Matthew Flaman. My wife, sons and I are fourth- and fifth-generation dairy farmers from Vibank, Saskatchewan, near Regina.Today I represent myself and 165 other dairy farmers in Saskatchewan. Thank you for the opportunity to offer my thoughts on the impact of the CUSMA deal on me.Supply management has allowed our farm and my family to contribute to the local economy through using local employees, vets, ag dealerships and other services that are close to me. The stability offered by supply management has allowed me to have the confidence to invest in our farm, our community and our area. The concessions granted in the trade agreements now have created some uncertainty of the climate going forward.Dairy farmers did not want to see concessions given, but they have been—3.9% on the CUSMA deal, and nearly 18% currently on the books. It is important for me that it's heard, in the words of our government, that “full and fair” compensation will be paid for the direct impact of these concessions. We've asked for direct payments, because we have had a portion of our market taken away. Programs that stimulate innovations are great, but they can be put in place at any time. They're not compensation for market loss.We have received a payment so far from a previous European trade deal, and we've used it to improve efficiencies through cow comfort and ventilation in our youngest calf barn. We've also used it for funding the next generation, through succession planning.I also want to speak about the export caps that have come into place through the CUSMA deal, which strike a nerve with me, not only as a dairy farmer, but as a Canadian citizen. As you've heard my fellow panellists say, these caps are unprecedented. To answer Mr. Prins' question, in my opinion, there's no chance that the U.S. or Mexico would ever let caps that were intended to be among three countries be spread out over the world. As a Canadian, this is very troubling for me, not just as a dairy farmer. The impacts go well beyond the dairy sector and can be used in any other industry in future trade negotiations. That scares me.In conclusion, I want to say that dairy farming has given me a good life. It's given me a good opportunity to raise my family. It's given me an opportunity to put some local employees to work and put some young people through school. It's been a proud spot in my life. I want nothing more than for my business to thrive and for my sons to take over one day and also thrive.I'm worried the industry is suffering a death by a thousand cuts. Not only are we giving up market access, but the export caps that don't allow us to move our protein concentrates around the world are an area of great concern to me, because they limit our ability to expand. If this continues to be the case, I'm not sure what advice I'll give my son in his endeavours to be a dairy farmer.I appreciate the time you've given me. Thank you for this opportunity.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingExportsGovernment billsGovernment compensationSaskatchewan Milk Marketing BoardSupply managementTrade agreements6077479607748060774816077482607748360774846077485607748660774876077488Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson (Pharmacist Owner, Tofield PharmaChoice, As an Individual): (1225)[English] I'll go first.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements6077491Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1225)[English] Thank you.We appreciate the opportunity to address this committee. Being able to describe what is happening on the ground floor in our businesses can be mutually beneficial for this and future legislation.I grew up on the farm too, but I ended up owning a pharmacy. I'm the owner of Tofield PharmaChoice. Tofield is a town about half an hour out of Edmonton. I also manage a medical clinic beside it, and I'm the standing president of the Alberta Pharmacists' Association. My opinions today aren't part of theirs; they are my personal opinions.CUSMA has garnered much attention for changes to the auto and dairy sectors, as we have just heard. The standing committee should be concerned with provisions of the agreement that could have important impacts on pharmacy sectors, and in turn on my patients.I understand the original CUSMA would have extended the term of protection for data resulting from drug trials from eight to 10 years for a subset of drugs known as innovative biologics. I'll explain what these are.As pharmacists and patients, we're very familiar with small, simple molecules that have been produced in the past 50 years, such as acetaminophen, codeine and antibiotics. They're easy to duplicate, because we can make a generic product of them, and those products come out at about 25% of a name brand product. We have used these generics since they were introduced about 35 years ago, and I was there right at the start. The availability of generic product has increased medication availability to all patients and saved millions of dollars to private, provincial and federal drug plans.A biologic is a product that's a little different. It's a large complex molecule, usually manufactured by manipulating living cells to produce a specific protein. The most common one everyone would know is insulin. There are many benefits to biologics, such as being a unique treatment option, either with fewer side effects or better treatment for a disease. Pricing for biologics can be anywhere from five to 10 times that of small, simple molecules. I refer to drugs as molecules. Generic products of biologics are called biosimilars, because they are not identical to the product, unlike making a generic of a simple molecule. They're very close to the same and they produce the same results in the body for a particular disease. Many provinces treat them as substitutes, although they are not interchangeable, but in comparison they're going to save payers many millions of dollars annually. Biosimilars are here, and we're using them now across Canada.Current Canadian law provides 20 years of patent protection, which is different from data protection. Patents are just like patents for products. Data protection is a little different. Because a drug needs to be researched, it takes a long time to get it on the market. A protection is offered to companies after the drug comes on the market, because the 20 years wouldn't cover their protection.Unlike other patents, drugs must go through trials and testing to prove efficiency and safety, which uses a large portion of the patent protection period. Data protection begins when they start marketing the drug, and it effectively provides a minimum period of market exclusivity regardless of the patent status. Data protection will prohibit the use by drug manufacturers in obtaining market approval of the safety and efficacy of the drug. When a patent company tests a product in the generic area, if people were allowed to use some of that data to get their drug on the market, that's basically what this data protection is: It protects the drug for x number of years to allow them to make some money.(1230) Before it was signed in December, the original CUSMA had an additional two years of data protection on biosimilar molecules. This is important because that extra protection would have increased the price of the products and extended the protection for an extra two years. From what I understand, it was changed back to the eight years on the signing day, which I think was December 10 or 11. In Alberta, we have witnessed recent changes to our publicly administered drug plans that are transitioning patients from biologics to lower-cost biosimilars. These policies were specifically implemented to decrease government drug plan expenditures. The more prevalent the use of biosimilars in Alberta, the greater the cost savings for payers and patients. Alberta spent more than $238 million in the fiscal year 2018-19 on biologic drugs, and these costs are increasing every year. Costs per patient for original biologics can be more than $25,000 annually, with biosimilar versions costing up to 50% less than the original biologics. Alberta's biosimilar initiative will save approximately $30 million annually, which can be invested in other health services for Albertans. CUSMA's data protection change would have worked directly against Alberta's ability to access affordable biologic drug therapy in the future. Here are a couple of examples. For a patient arriving at my pharmacy counter, the average price for Remicade, which is a name brand biologic used for rheumatoid arthritis, would run that patient or a third party payer like Blue Cross or VAC $1,553 a month, compared with a biosimilar of $848 a month. This pricing is excluding any fees or markups, and this extrapolates into a savings of about $8,460 annually.In another example, Lantus insulin costs about $100 monthly, in comparison with $75 for a biosimilar, a savings of $300 annually. The $300 seems like a small amount, but when it is multiplied by the number of diabetics in Alberta, which is increasing, the savings are substantial. The patient on a fixed income with no prescription insurance sees no effective difference between the two products and is using the savings to purchase maybe test strips to better control his diabetes and keep him out of the hospital. We have probably 20 to 25 patients in my pharmacy alone who are making that change. Nationally, had they extended the data protection to 10 years instead of the eight, it would have cost us over $169 million in 2029. I talk about 2029 because the patents are just being taken out for products that are going to be available then, and those are the ones that CUSMA will affect. From what I understand, for the ones that are presently licensed, there'll be a grandfather clause. Final terms in CUSMA allow data protection to remain at eight years, from what I understand, giving continued savings to payers such as my patients and third party private and public plans, like government plans, which will allow continued affordability to patients who visit my pharmacy. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to this committee.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPatentsPharmaceuticalsTrade agreements607749360774946077495607749660774976077498607749960775006077501607750260775036077504607750560775066077507607750860775096077510Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekGayleenEricksonGayleen-EricksonInterventionMs. Gayleen Erickson (Business Owner, Guardian Pharmacy, Tofield Medical Clinic, As an Individual): (1235)[English]Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to present as well. My name is Gayleen Erickson. I am the owner of Guardian Pharmacy and the Tofield Medical Clinic in Tofield, Alberta. I have reservations concerning CUSMA and the effects it will have on my business ventures. I would like to give some basic information on pharmacy in Canada and how drug shortages have been affecting my pharmacy and our patients. We've experienced many drug shortages, and these seem to be on the rise. Shortages are caused because of many variables and circumstances. These include plant inspections revealing contaminants, access to raw product ingredients, international demands for product and, most commonly, generic product pricing that is too low. Low prices make products more popular and less profitable to manufacture. Decreased profit can persuade manufacturers to discontinue production in favour of other, more profitable molecules, causing a decreased supply and demand buffer. Pharmaceuticals have expiry dates, and this limits the amount of product in the system.All of these concerns lead to a very inelastic supply and demand system for pharmaceuticals. At any one time, drugshortages.ca will report approximately two thousand drugs being shorted. Currently, our pharmacy is unable to supply our customers with 60 common medications because they are shorted. Additionally, any arrangements made by private payers or government can cause extra stress on an overloaded system. Here are just a few examples of these shortages.Pantoprazole was shorted after the main public payer in Alberta favoured pantoprazole as the preferred drug to be prescribed to all patients with gastroesophageal reflux disease, also known as heartburn or GERD. That was only to save money. Metformin, a common anti-diabetic drug, became unprofitable because of price compression from many manufacturers, and they discontinued production. In 2017, a group of approximately 20 to 30 injectable surgical drugs were shorted after the discovery of contamination in the only factory that produced and supplied these products to hospitals and pharmacies in Canada. We were unable to supply Beaver ambulance services with product that was crucial for their day-to-day operations. Many of these injectable products remain on allocation from our wholesaler today, limiting the numbers that any pharmacy can purchase. Valsartan was shorted worldwide when a contaminant was discovered in July 2018 in a raw product used to make the tablets. This recall, combined with price compression, has resulted in supply issues to date for the whole class of drugs called ARBs—angiotensin II receptor blockers. The majority of losartan, irbesartan, telmisartan, candesartan and olmesartan molecules are in short supply as the process dominoes. Canadian drug stores could not supply the citizens of Canada with EpiPens in the summer of 2019. News agencies reported that individuals should use expired pens in an emergency, while the U.S. did not experience any shortages but supplied pens at a higher price in a market with higher margin. Pricing decisions by the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, the pan-Canadian pharmaceutical alliance and provincial programs can affect name brand and generic supply. Generic pricing is often based on brand pricing.Pharmacists are deeply concerned about U.S. policies that would enable the additional exportation of prescription drugs from Canada to the United States. Drug importation by the U.S., both personal and wholesale, is neither practical nor sustainable. CUSMA has not addressed this major concern facing Canadian pharmacies. Government needs to be aware of these shortages and the effects they have on our industry and the well-being of all our patients. Recently, Bernie Sanders encouraged the American public to purchase their pharmaceutical supplies in Canada at cheaper prices.(1240) We were here yesterday for question period and were quite concerned to hear a motion with regard to pharmacare. We have work to do on the present problems with pharmaceutical supply issues in Canada. Price compression, manufacturing issues and recalls are still causing major problems. To conclude, we are having major pharmacy supply issues in Canada. These problems are being ignored. They are growing annually, and our patients experience the fallout. I would like to confirm that CUSMA does not force or suggest that we supply pharmaceuticals out of our supply chain without additional supply assurances. It is imperative that future supply models take into account what is happening right now, today, in pharmacies across Canada.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements607751460775156077516607751760775186077519607752060775216077522607752360775246077525Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC): (1240)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It is great to be able to join this committee this morning. I want to thank each of the folks who have come to testify before us. I appreciate that there are three farmers, two business owners and a pharmacist. Your input is very valued here. I appreciate your making the trip and taking the time to share your expert opinions. Your opinions are valuable, and it is appreciated that you have come to be a part of this very important democratic process to ensure that Bill C-4 gets the review required.I think there is large agreement across the country that free trade is important, that we need to have a strong trading relationship with our international partners, but the various perspectives that have been presented here today emphasize how important it is to have proper oversight and review of this legislation to ensure that Canadians understand the impacts.My question will be focused on Mr. and Mrs. Erickson. Acknowledging the reality of free trade.... When it comes down to it, the role of a pharmacy as a part of the health care system is ultimately about making sure patients in this country have access to the care they need in order to get healthy, to be treated properly. Does either of you have further thoughts about the impact of drugs being sold to the United States? Could you elaborate on how that affects your day-to-day operations? Also, for the benefit of committee members, help us understand what options there might be to address this in the future, so that folks can be aware of how serious an issue this is.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementExportsGovernment billsPharmaceuticalsTrade agreements60775286077529607753060775316077532Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1240)[English]We brought along an example of my drug order sent in on Saturday. We ordered 111 products; 33 of them were short. This is not even a list of all the items we would use. We're short, currently, about 60 molecules. Every time I hear about a busload coming up here from the U.S.... I know they need medication, but we are having supply problems here, right now, and we need to understand that's what's happening. If any of the committee members were to go to their pharmacy today and ask them if they are having supply issues with any drugs, they would get a story from their pharmacist. It's happening right across Canada. I have friends across Canada who run pharmacies; it's the same story all across Canada.We want to get this supply issue under control. When there is a product shortage, we have quite a lot of work to do today as pharmacists. In Alberta we prescribe; we substitute product. A lot of pharmacists in Canada cannot prescribe; they have to send the patient back to the physician. It gets to be quite burdensome work to get these patients through the system.So when I hear about pharmacare coming, about more control or cheaper product, I cannot believe what is happening here already. Regarding sales to the States in the future, I believe we have to get our product under control here in Canada. If we can be assured of supply, and can get supply, I'm in favour of it. I realize we have to trade with the States.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077533607753460775356077536DamienKurekBattle River—CrowfootGayleenEricksonGayleenEricksonGayleen-EricksonInterventionMs. Gayleen Erickson: (1245)[English] I would just like to say that approximately 20% of the time my pharmacists spend in the pharmacy each day is spent trying to locate drugs for individuals. There is ear medication that we are not able to bring in anymore. We have had to find pharmacies that will compound the product, and that's the only way we are able to supply it.We have issues where, because of contaminations in different factories, a product will come and it will be shorted. From there, we have to provide other options. Over-the-counter medications are being shorted, and now we are having to provide prescriptions for these individuals.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsTrade agreements60775376077538DarrenEricksonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1245)[English]I appreciate that very much. I think it emphasizes the importance of having a fulsome discussion about the new NAFTA—this CUSMA deal—or any other thing that comes before Parliament. I appreciate the perspective and even just learning about the difference between biologics and biosimilars.Just briefly, if I could—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60775416077542Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105614DamienKurekDamien-KurekBattle River—CrowfootConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KurekDamien_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Damien Kurek: (1245)[English]It is also important to acknowledge how this may affect the development of new drugs and that industry in Canada.However, since my time is up, I appreciate the opportunity, Madam Chair.Thank you again to the witnesses for their contributions. I really appreciate your coming and being a part of this.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsTrade agreements607754460775456077546Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1245)[English]Thank you to the presenters for coming.Mr. Prins, that was a very inspirational story. When you were telling it, it reminded me of my dad. His story was very similar to yours, his days growing up in a family that was agricultural. After doing all the chores, he would bike 37 kilometres to the college and come back. It's very inspirational. I wish you all the best, and thank you for doing great work.You said that the government should be standing up for the dairy farmers; we did. President Trump wanted to dismantle supply management, but we were able to protect it. You mentioned that 3.9% of the dairy is affected, and that has a devastating effect. I am just trying to imagine what the consequences would be if we hadn't protected the supply management. That is what I am trying to see.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsSupply managementTrade agreements607754860775496077550Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJoelPrinsJoelPrinsJoel-PrinsInterventionMr. Joel Prins: (1245)[English]Thanks for the compliments on that.I guess it's something that we ourselves don't even picture and can't fathom because we are sold on this idea of the supply management, and that's why we fight so hard for it. It's something that our families rely on. Even with that 3.9%, it doesn't seem like a lot, but it seems that it accumulates every time; it is never a clean slate to start with. We already had gone through several other trade deals where we were also giving it up, so it feels like our government's goal is to eventually get rid of it. That is not what we hope, and that's not what we picture. We want to continue strong in what we're doing. So, that 3.9% is also added on to other ones. Now it seems like every two or three years when a new trade deal comes out, we're bracing for another one. Why do we always need to do this?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsSupply managementTrade agreements607755160775526077553SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1250)[English]How about the local demand? Has the local demand for milk and milk products grown over the last decade, with new immigration and different communities moving in?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsImmigration and immigrantsMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements6077554JoelPrinsJoelPrinsJoelPrinsJoel-PrinsInterventionMr. Joel Prins: (1250)[English]I think you are exactly right there. Canada is a great country, with a lot of immigrants coming in annually. Basically, it seems like any growth that we would have gotten just from people coming into the country we're now giving away. Instead of letting our dairy farmers continue to grow with the population, we are now giving away that extra growth. A lot of immigrants do love our milk products. There are a lot of new innovations as well, just from processors trying new things and new technologies so that we are able to enjoy more of the milk products.Yes, you are exactly right that dairy has growth from within our country, but we farmers are not benefiting from it.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsImmigration and immigrantsMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements60775556077556SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1250)[English] Thank you.My question is for Ms. Erickson. I agree on one of the drugs that you mentioned, the ear medication. All I remember is that it's in a yellow bottle; I will leave the names for my daughters to remember. It was shorted. I went to my pharmacist and he was blaming us. He said that we were bringing down the prices of the medications. On the one hand, the consumer wants the prices to come down. On the other hand, when we bring this forward, pharmacists are blaming us. How can we balance that between the two?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsTrade agreements607755760775586077559JoelPrinsGayleenEricksonGayleenEricksonGayleen-EricksonInterventionMs. Gayleen Erickson: (1250)[English] What you have to do is ensure there is supply. What they are doing now is negotiating the price down so low, providing only one supplier for some of the drugs, that if there is a contamination in that plant, it shuts down the entire production of that. Then you have to get back into the supply chain at the factory, so you may have to wait three months before that drug goes into production again. During that period of time, the pharmacies have to revert to other drugs, something similar, for their supplies. It's like olmesartan and all of the ARBs. Now all of a sudden there is a whole group of drugs that are no longer suppliable because they can't be provided by the plants and the factories anymore, so it just mushrooms and compounds.For some of the products, like metformin, there used to be a number of different suppliers, but now they have gone down to just one, I believe. That's all we have in the pharmacy. It's a very common anti-diabetic drug, and there's no one else supplying it, so if there's a contamination in that factory, we're done. Our customers, our patients, are without.People don't realize the severity of this. We have had heart medications.... The ear medication is just a minor one, but when you go to your doctor and the doctor says, “I'm sorry. We can't supply it. Use vinegar and water”, and you're facing the possibility of hearing loss.... This happened to our son. That's why it's very close to my heart. It's happening all over.There was a drug for women who had bladder control problems. It was negotiated down so low in price that the companies stopped producing it. There is no medication for this.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsTrade agreements60775606077561607756260775636077564SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1250)[Translation]My thanks to all the witnesses for their presentations.A number of witnesses from agriculture began with a summary of what you do. That seems very interesting to me because, beyond your militancy, you are showing us the human beings behind it, experiencing at first hand the effects of the negotiations, the decisions, the signings and the debates. You add a particularly interesting human face to the current situation.First of all, my question goes to the three people here from the dairy industry, the agricultural industry. I am going to ask you the same question that I have asked a number of witnesses. Is there a consensus on the issue? I feel that you all agree that there must be compensation for your sector and for the producers who have been harmed by the negotiations.That was the case in previous treaties. For this one, we hope that it will be announced in the next budget. Can you tell us what form of compensation you would like to see? Is it direct compensation, or another form, like investment and modernization programs?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements6077567607756860775696077570Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1255)[English]I could begin to answer your question by saying that dairy farmers are looking for a direct compensation payment to farmers. The reason is that all farms are at a different point in their financial cycle.For example, some farms have made major investments on the farm in terms of improving animal care and so on, so then it wouldn't work. They wouldn't receive a payment after something has been done. Others are planning to. Sometimes it takes longer for young farmers to get their financing together. That's why it's so important to make the direct payments to farmers, because they know exactly how best to ensure that the payment goes toward future sustainability on those farms.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements60775716077572Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJoelPrinsJoelPrinsJoel-PrinsInterventionMr. Joel Prins: (1255)[English]I would have to agree with David. Direct payment is definitely the way dairy farmers across Canada want it to be received. Even if you're the smallest farmer, the biggest farmer or anywhere in between, you still get compensated. You don't have to submit an application and hope you're one of the two hundred or three hundred who win the lottery. In that sense, the direct payment is the fairest way to go. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements6077573DavidWiensMatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1255)[English]I would like to add to that.I agree with the direct payment as well. The reason is that innovation and investment are different on every farm. David alluded to that a little bit. In some cases, it's very new. In Saskatchewan, we have an entrant program, as does the rest of the country. In that case, maybe it would be used to pay down debt. In other cases, it may be used to increase cow comfort through better bedding facilities or ventilation. In other cases, it could be used for robotics or further innovation on the cow milking side. It does give the farmers a choice. As Joel has said, it allows every farmer to receive the chance to use it equally, no matter how large or small or how mature they are as a farmer.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements60775746077575JoelPrinsSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1255)[Translation]I see that there is a consensus, not only among yourselves, but also among all those from your sector who have come to testify before us in the last two weeks.So your reply does not surprise me. It is important for us to hear all the witnesses confirming that this is the preferred and desirable formula.There is also another question that a number of witnesses were asked. In your opinion, how do we calculate the amounts on those cheques?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements607757660775776077578MatthewFlamanDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1255)[English]I will speak to that. After the CETA and CPTPP agreements were ratified, there was a discussion with dairy farmers and the government. For those two agreements, it was recognized—and that was by the government's own validation—that the damage was to the tune of $2 billion. That same process would have to follow CUSMA, where the dairy industry has an opportunity to have that discussion with our government at the time of ratification.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements60775796077580Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJoelPrinsJoelPrinsJoel-PrinsInterventionMr. Joel Prins: (1300)[English]As for myself, I was too young for the first deals. From what I know from my dad, there were working groups that analyzed what the cost effect of everything was and what the effects of the trade deals were. As David mentioned, it was $2 billion. Once this CUSMA deal gets ratified, there would have to be another group set up to analyze what effects, even long-term effects, this deal has on the farmer. From there, they would come up with a number that made sense.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationTrade agreements6077581DavidWiensJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1300)[English]Thank you very much.Welcome to all our guests, in particular Mr. Wiens. We had the opportunity to speak back home in Manitoba not that long ago, so I'm happy to take up a few of the themes from that conversation.You mentioned the use of bovine growth hormone in your opening remarks. With respect to the market share that's granted under CUSMA, is the agreement blind to the content of what's coming in from the United States? Are they allowed to bring in things that don't meet Canadian standards? How does that work, and who would monitor that?Bovine growth hormoneC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsRegulationTrade agreementsUnited States of America607758460775856077586Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1300)[English]That's correct. The use of the hormone rbST, which is a production hormone used in the U.S., is illegal in Canada because of animal health concerns. There would be no restriction of these products coming into Canada. That raises a real concern that Canadian consumers are not always going to know what they're getting, and it raises the fact that it has not been produced to the kind of standards that we have set, especially through our assurance program, proAction, where all farmers in the country follow the standard. Our standards reflect the values of all Canadians, and we take great pride in that.Bovine growth hormoneC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsRegulationTrade agreementsUnited States of America6077587DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1300)[English] Would you say that if Canadian dairy processors were holding the TRQ—versus the retailers, for instance—they would have a better sense of judging what products coming in from the United States would be comparable to Canadian products?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsImportsTrade agreements6077588DavidWiensDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1300)[English]We certainly believe that the processors should have the import TRQs. Processors will be and are much more strategic in terms of the kinds of products they bring in, and it would be less disruptive to the industry.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsImportsTrade agreements6077589DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1300)[English]In the CETA process, we know that over 50% of the TRQs weren't granted to processors. They were granted to retailers. What has that meant for the Canadian dairy industry? What has been the impact of that administrative decision on the Canadian end? It was not negotiated in the deal, but it is a unilateral decision by the Canadian government.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsImportsTrade agreements6077590DavidWiensDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1300)[English]That had a very negative impact on the processors in this country. Certainly, it's easy to calculate the market losses through that trade deal, which are the 17,000 tonnes of cheese that are being imported. Part of the effect has also been.... We can then potentially get into a discussion of dumping, but it has reduced the margins for processors in this country. It's very difficult to compete against the treasuries of the EU—or of the U.S., for that matter.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsImportsTrade agreements6077591DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1300)[English]When we're talking about retailers holding TRQs, is it fair to say that Canadian consumers aren't just concerned about price but are also concerned about choice? Depending on who holds the TRQ, it could be used to drive down price, including trying to reduce margins for Canadian producers, or it could be used in a way that expands choice by making products available to Canadian consumers that aren't in competition with existing Canadian dairy products. Does it make a difference to the industry how those TRQs are used and whether they're used to promote choice of product or drive down price?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsImportsTrade agreements60775926077593DavidWiensDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1300)[English]Certainly that has an impact for the Canadian marketplace. With regard to processors, again, they strategically import products, although with so much of the import quota being given to retailers in CETA, that has had a very negative impact on our industry. Again, processors are much more strategic in the way they fill those import quotas, so certainly neither the consumers nor the processors or farmers have really benefited from the way in which the quota was allocated in CETA.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsImportsTrade agreements6077594DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1305)[English]Yes. I have just a couple of quick comments about imports of the milk that's coming in. Obviously, rbST is an issue. One other thing, which is a bit of an industry standard, is that the quality of milk in Canada is second to none. It's a worldwide standard. The U.S. has its own standard, which may not be as good in some cases. I don't want to.... I'm sure that in a lot of cases it's just fine. There's a standard they use across the country for what's called “somatic cell count”, which aids in the quality of cheeses and is essentially a measure of cow health. At any rate, it's about double what it would be in Canada, maybe not quite double but close. We're very proud of the quality of milk that we produce on farms, and that then translates into quality products.Mr. Daniel Blaikie: Right on. Thank you very much.Bovine growth hormoneC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsRegulationTrade agreementsUnited States of America6077597607759860775996077600DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1305)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Flaman from SaskMilk, welcome to the committee.Under the new NAFTA, Canadian dairy producers will be losing 3.9% market access to the domestic market. Given the rate of growth of the domestic market and the profit margins of dairy producers, can you give the committee an idea of what the loss of 3.9% means to a typical Saskatchewan dairy producer?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsMarket accessTrade agreements607760260776036077604Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1305)[English]In a nutshell, I think the loss of 3.9% is our growth. Predicted growth over the next years might be in that neighbourhood. This is taking away our growth and giving it to somebody else. Effectively, that affects our future. That's troublesome for me. More importantly, on top of that, I'll draw you back to the export cap again. Not only has this taken away our growth within our country, but it has taken away our growth outside of our country. It's very troublesome.Moving forward, I think that with any other cuts that would come to us, or any other imports, it really does feel like death by a thousand cuts.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsMarket accessTrade agreements60776056077606MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1305)[English] Can you describe some of the activities and new products that Canadian dairy producers have come up with in recent years to expand growth into foreign export markets?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsMarket accessTrade agreements6077607MatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1305)[English]I think we see the future in the milk protein concentrates. I can't really speak of anything that's on the horizon right now, but.... It's different, it's innovative and it's what the world wants from us. It plays well into our current situation in Canada and North America, where there's a high demand for cream and butter fat. What is left over is the protein side of our milk component. It can be used in things like infant formula, protein powders, and obviously to increase protein in just about any food we consume.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsMarket accessTrade agreements6077608MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1305)[English]How will these markets be affected by the new dairy export tariffs?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsMarket accessTrade agreements6077609MatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1305)[English]Essentially, with a very low limit of 35,000 tonnes, it handcuffs us not only to our trading partners in the U.S. and Mexico, but also around the world. As far as we understand, we'll lose that market.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsMarket accessTrade agreements6077610MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1305)[English]When did SaskMilk find out about the new dairy export tariffs that are in place in the new NAFTA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077611MatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1305)[English]It was well beyond the agreement of it. We weren't consulted on the export caps themselves, the size of the caps, nor the impact they would have. I think we may have been.... I'm going to pass this on to David because he was involved with this. We were briefed on it, not consulted. David can add to it.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements60776126077613MichaelKramRegina—WascanaDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1305)[English]During the process of negotiations, I was part of the delegation that went to Washington, Mexico City and Montreal, following these negotiations. When the export cap was announced after the deal was signed, it came as quite a shock. Also, the U.S. oversight clause on our own domestic dairy policy was not shared with those who were following these discussions very closely.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077614MatthewFlamanMichaelKramRegina—WascanaMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1310)[English]I do want to conclude with the export portion of this. I think it's unprecedented. It's very troublesome. If you think about any other sector, having a country within a trade agreement control them outside of that trade agreement, no matter what the commodity is—if it's any kind of manufacturing or export that we do—that's very troublesome. It's not good.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077616MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1310)[English]Mr. Flaman, do you have an estimate of how much the industry will be paying in the new dairy export tariff?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077617MatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1310)[English]I think we had some information on that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077618MichaelKramRegina—WascanaMichaelKramRegina—WascanaMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1310)[English]If we use some historical numbers and we continue with those numbers, we'd be $10 million to $20 million in tariff.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077620MichaelKramRegina—WascanaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89080MichaelKramMichael-KramRegina—WascanaConservative CaucusSaskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KramMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Kram: (1310)[English]Have you had any talks with the government about what the money collected will actually be used for?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077622Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1310)[English]I don't think we've been there yet.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDairy industryExportsGovernment billsTrade agreements6077623MichaelKramRegina—WascanaJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1310)[English]Thank you. I'm going back to the dairy sector.Mr. Wiens, you said that in Manitoba it employs 7,950 people.Out of those 7,950 jobs, how many do you think will be gone just because of CUSMA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesManitobaTrade agreements607762660776276077628Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1310)[English] It's going to have an impact beyond the number of jobs. In our province, for example, many of the veterinary clinics are focused and concentrated in areas where dairy is one of the major farms going on, so it will have an effect there. The feed mills that provide feed for dairies and the canola meal will all have impacts. What happens is that, instead of farms growing, they're staying the same.Right now, it's very hard to determine exactly the amount by which it will reduce these jobs because we don't even know the full impact of the riddance of class 7. It was very positive for us in terms of creating opportunities. As Matt said, all of our imports displace our ability to produce for the domestic market, but the restriction on exports actually makes it even more difficult for us to meet what is left of the domestic market because we'll have this surplus protein. What do we do with it? That is our challenge and that's how it has an impact on every veterinary clinic in the province, on farms. Now they're not growing.I've talked to farmers. I get calls. It's about how difficult it is for them to make a go of it. They ask, “Where are we going with this?” I'm trying to provide them with answers, not really knowing how this all plays out. It means that investment on farms has really slowed down this year, and when we talked to our suppliers they corroborate that information as well, and on the processing side as well. For processors, if they're in a state of growth, they will continue to increase production. One thing we say about dairy farming is that it doesn't matter whether you have a 60-cow dairy or a 500-cow dairy; it will take about one person for every 50-60 cows. That's a standard across the board. In that way, we will see reduced employment connected to the dairy industry at all these different levels.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesManitobaTrade agreements607762960776306077631SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1310)[English]Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, British Columbia, Quebec.... Is there one province affected more than the others, or is it going to be coast to coast to coast?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesTrade agreements6077632DavidWiensDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1310)[English]We would expect that we will see that from coast to coast. There's different processing in different provinces. Certainly in our province just three years ago there was a $100-million investment made into making these milk protein concentrates, and that part was for export. The other side of that operation was butter production for the domestic market. That was done without knowing that CUSMA was going to come along and take away the ability to export the protein products, the milk protein concentrate. That's had a very dampening effect on that plant. We as farmers, but also as processors, really have to reconsider where we're at and what's going to happen now. There's a lot of concern in the industry.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsLayoffs and job lossesTrade agreements6077633SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1315)[English]Ms. Erickson, you said that now we have only one supplier for Metformin. What you said was very alarming.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsTrade agreements6077634DavidWiensDarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1315)[English]I can probably correct that. Metformin is a very popular diabetic drug, and it used to be produced by about 14 manufacturers. When compression came from the pan-Canada decision, where the Government of Canada arranged pricing for these products, they compressed the price, and the number of manufacturers of Metformin went down to about seven. All of a sudden, we have a shortage of product. Not that that's not livable—we're short of product and the manufacturers adjust to it—but when we have a catastrophe like contamination in a company now, it's down to six, and we're in trouble.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsTrade agreements6077635SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1315)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.I came across an interesting read while doing a little research. It's called “Dairy processing industry by the numbers”. I'm going to speak about the good side of things first. Since 2008, there have been $7.5 billion in investments, $18 billion contributed annually to the Canadian GDP, 16% growth in dairy processing real GDP, 12,000 Canadian dairy farms supported by dairy processors and 24,500 Canadians employed by dairy processors, with an aggregate annual payroll of $1.2 billion.Here are the negatives: a $670-million loss expected in return on investments resulting from CETA, $730 million expected of lost return on investments resulting from CPTPP, and hundreds of millions more in losses expected in return on investments resulting from the USMCA. I found that very interesting.I have three questions for anybody from dairy, whoever is the best fit to answer. The dairy processors have asked the Government of Canada to include a TRQ in the compensation package. Could you explain how this would compensate for the market loss as a result of the new NAFTA?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsGovernment compensationImportsTrade agreements6077638607763960776406077641607764260776436077644Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1315)[English]I could speak to that.To some extent of course, processors would have a better opportunity to speak to that. I did allude to this before. By not having the import quota, there's no strategic way of bringing in imports. I think it has more of an impact on processors then, because of the way they fill the imports. If they control the import quotas, that certainly reduces the overall negative impact, because they're very strategic in the timing and the kind of products they bring in.Certainly processors could speak more to that.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsGovernment compensationImportsTrade agreements607764560776466077647ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1315)[English]Thank you. I didn't get a chance to speak to the processors in the last round, so that's why I'm throwing these questions out now.It would appear that the Government of Canada has not provided extra resources to CBSA and to CFIA to ensure that the dairy quality standards and regulations are maintained.Have you any concerns about the implementation of the new NAFTA relative to quality?BordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMilk and dairy productsRegulationTrade agreements6077648607764960776506077651DavidWiensDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1315)[English] I can speak to it, but if Matt wants to add to it....Yes, that is a concern. At one point, CFIA was involved in having oversight on imports. They had the expertise. When CFIA was removed from that role, CBSA was left to do the job, for which they had very little training. They were more the generalists. If there's a milk powder of some kind or some product that comes across, the concern is that they don't have the technical expertise to categorize it properly. If we don't have that, then any of these import controls don't mean anything because there's no way to control them.That's a concern, and we hope that CBSA will be staffed so they have enough person power there and also the knowledge to differentiate among products.BordersC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsMilk and dairy productsRegulationTrade agreements607765260776536077654ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105120ChrisLewisChris-LewisEssexConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LewisChris_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Chris Lewis: (1320)[English]Very well. Thank you.This is the last one, and I hope this isn't too directed to the dairy producers, but the producers and processors have said that the export cap is a bad precedent. Given the negotiating dynamic and the tough spot that Canada was in, what's left other than to concede these export caps? Are administration measures really feasible?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryExportsGovernment billsMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements60776586077659MatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthewFlamanMatthew-FlamanInterventionMr. Matthew Flaman: (1320)[English]I said it earlier. The dairy sector aside, that's very troublesome to me as a Canadian citizen. We're in a trilateral deal with two other countries, and they're going to control what we do internationally. That's very troublesome. I can't imagine as this rolls out what other sectors feel or fear coming out of that. It can affect anybody now. Precedent has been set, or could be set. I think we do have a chance through administrative processes to work that portion over a little and get it cleared up in our favour maybe.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryExportsGovernment billsMilk and dairy productsTrade agreements6077660ChrisLewisEssexChrisLewisEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1320)[English]Thank you.Mr. Erickson, knowledge is power and our knowledge comes only from experts like you. It makes us very powerful when we have this dialogue. It's very important.I'm trying to understand this, particularly because we will be implementing a pharmacare policy at some point as well. That's where we're heading. I want to make sure that, on the one hand, Canadians are able to get the medication they need at affordable prices. On the other hand, we want to make sure we are able to protect the supply as well.How can we have that balance? How can we achieve that if we are moving forward in that direction?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPharmacarePrescription drugsTrade agreements6077665607766660776676077668Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1320)[English] One way to prevent it is to let the market forces work for themselves. In terms of compression, we've had the experience with generic products being compressed in price, or being controlled in price. We have manufacturers dropping out of the manufacturing business for certain molecules. We are also getting into a situation where we have contamination in factories being picked up very easily. There are very sensitive tests now, so we're having factories shutting down because of it. With that compression and lower amounts of stock, when we have a contamination, we have a major problem. It doesn't just happen to a single drug, such as valsartan. It has dominoed into all the other angiotensin reuptake blockers. About seven of them are short now because of one product, valsartan, being contaminated about a year and a half ago. I say to let the market decide a little more. As pharmacists, we're scared that, with pharmacare, somebody is going to compress the prices even more and just say, “You know what? For metformin, it's going to be one company.” If that one company gets a contaminant, we are going to be looking for metformin. We're going to have trouble. We need to keep a number of manufacturers in the loop, and we need to keep prices less compressed. That's how we can protect ourselves. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGeneric drugsGovernment billsPharmacarePrescription drugsPrice determinationTrade agreements607766960776706077671607767260776736077674SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1320)[English]Thank you.To the dairy sector, I've been listening to you and I know that, particularly with the cap we have, you cannot do business in other nations besides the two that are involved, the U.S. and Mexico. One thing Mr. Wiens said was that we should have a direct cash subsidy to the farmers to make sure they are able to innovate and to be sustainable in these circumstances. In terms of that comment, is there anything else? Even though I take pride in the fact that we were still able to protect and preserve supply management, this 3.9% that I am hearing about from you is now starting to bother me as well. Therefore, I'm trying to see what concrete steps or solutions you have, besides just the cash payment that the government should be making, to ensure that the dairy farmers are able not only to be sustainable, but to progress further.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryGovernment billsGovernment compensationSupply managementTrade agreements607767560776766077677DarrenEricksonDavidWiensDavidWiensDavid-WiensInterventionMr. David Wiens: (1325)[English]That's a good question. There are a number of things that can happen. The thing about the direct payment to farmers, as has already been described, is that it's going to help us through this difficult time of transition. It will obviously impact the revenues on the farm and the investments we make, so there is a benefit there.We also see that our government is in other trade agreement negotiations around the world, with the South American bloc, and now potentially Brexit is going to result in more discussions. One thing that is going to be very important for the dairy industry is no further markets of ours being given away to other countries. That is an important step to restoring confidence in the dairy industry, both from the farmers' side and the processors' side, to be able to make the investments that we're going to need to continue to be productive and efficient as dairy farmers.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingDairy industryGovernment billsGovernment compensationSupply managementTrade agreements6077678607767960776806077681SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1325)[Translation]My question goes to Mr. and Mrs. Erickson.As you said, the price of drugs is higher in the United States than in Canada. You mentioned a number of internal policies that could be implemented here.However, I want to direct your attention back to the agreement. You said that the only change there could be is for the protection to be extended, but actually, that was in a previous version of the agreement.So today, in its current form, what are the effects?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPatented medicinesPatentsTrade agreements6077684607768560776866077687Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1325)[English] In relation to data protection, it is continuing the same, from what I understand. They did have an extension. The data protection was going to last for 10 years initially, and all of a sudden, on December 11, when CUSMA was signed, it came out at eight years, I believe. I'm still not very clear on that, but from what I understand, it's eight years now. That is a continuation, which is okay. It will be good for my patients. To make it longer would be a real loss of dollars. It looks like it will continue the same. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPatented medicinesPatentsTrade agreements6077688Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotSimon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—Bagot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104944Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySimon-Pierre-Savard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SavardTremblaySimonPierre_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay: (1325)[Translation]Basically, there would have been effects with the previous version if there had not been an extension. However, in the current version, what will be the concrete effects of the agreement?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPatented medicinesPatentsTrade agreements6077689DarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1325)[English]In the current version, it looks like there will be no change for data protection for biologics—for biologics only.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPatented medicinesPatentsTrade agreements6077690Simon-PierreSavard-TremblaySaint-Hyacinthe—BagotJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1325)[English]There's one thing I'm trying to square in your testimony. We heard, on the one hand, that lower prices have led to supply issues, and you guys have concerns about that. We also heard you speak positively about not extending drug patents, which have been, as a result, keeping prices low. I'm trying to understand what seems to me to be a tension between advocating for higher prices to maintain supply and expressing pleasure at seeing provisions in the agreement that keep our prices low. I'm just trying to figure out what my take-away from your testimony should be.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsTrade agreements60776936077694Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekDarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1325)[English]I'm kind of talking about two groups of drugs. One is the generic experience for simple molecules in the last 10 years. We've had the pan-Canadian pharmaceutical alliance controlling prices, pushing them down and decreasing the number of manufacturers. We've also had these drug catastrophes coming along, and manufacturer contaminants. That's one area. The price is so low on them that manufacturers are dropping out and we're having trouble supplying. C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements60776956077696DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1330)[English]Is that because manufacturers aren't making a profit or because they're not making the kind of return they would like to see?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements6077697DarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1330)[English]Generally, I think there will be more profitable molecules available for the manufacturer. Metformin is quite a popular drug, so they would decide—C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements6077698DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89032DanielBlaikieDaniel-BlaikieElmwood—TransconaNew Democratic Party CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BlaikieDaniel_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Daniel Blaikie: (1330)[English]So it's more about the marginal benefit of producing other generic drugs, as opposed to the idea that they can't make any money at all on producing at the prices they manufacture at.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements6077699DarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarrenEricksonDarren-EricksonInterventionMr. Darren Erickson: (1330)[English]I think it's the simplicity of manufacturing certain products or what fits into their machinery best. Lots of decisions go into deciding whether they will make a molecule or not. We do know that when this price compression came in over the last 10 years, we lost I'm sure 30% to 40% of our manufactured product, which went to fewer sources, and even a single source in some cases.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDrug supplyGovernment billsPrice determinationTrade agreements6077700DanielBlaikieElmwood—TransconaDanielBlaikieElmwood—Transcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/1787Judy A.SgroHon.JudyA--SgroHumber River—Black CreekLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SgroJudyA_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)): (1530)[English] I'm calling to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on International Trade. Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, February 6, 2020, we are studying Bill C-4, an act to implement the agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican States. Welcome to all of our witnesses and to committee members.We're about to start another week of consultations. If we can get another 20 hours of consultation.... I'm glad to see that all our members are still anxious to keep going. I'm glad you're all here.As an individual, we have Wietze Dykstra. From the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, we have Mary Robinson, president, as well as Robert Friesen, trade policy analyst. From the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association, we have Mark Nantais, president. From the Dairy Farmers of Canada, we have Jacques Lefebvre, chief executive officer; Pierre Lampron, president; and Christopher Cochlin, international trade legal adviser at Cassidy Levy Kent.We will start the opening remarks with you, Mr. Dykstra.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsTrade agreements60785966078597607859860785996078600WietzeDykstraWietzeDykstraWietze-DykstraInterventionMr. Wietze Dykstra (Dairy Farmer, As an Individual): (1530)[English] Good afternoon.I'm a dairy farmer. I was invited to speak here by way of our local MP, Mr. Bragdon, but more on that later. I was born and raised in a city in Holland. You might have already guessed that by my name. My parents had no farm. For some reason I always wanted to become a dairy farmer. I knew I would never have enough money to buy any kind of farm in Holland. Because I wanted to become a farmer, I went to the agriculture school in the city where I was born. ln my final year at school, which would have been when I was 19, I contemplated where to go to pursue my dream. At that time—this would have been the late 1980s—France and Australia were popular. Denmark was also a go-to place. I had heard in school that Canada was good to their dairy farmers, as they had some kind of system in place to ensure their dairy farmers were getting paid a fair price for the milk they produced. That was all I knew in 1986, but it was good enough for me to go on a big adventure. I bought my first plane ticket to go to Canada.I arrived in Halifax, Nova Scotia, not really knowing much English, and ended up working on a farm in Nova Scotia. Of course, I was very homesick. I slowly started to find out that there was indeed a good system in place here, which I eventually learned was called supply management. True to the Dutch stereotype, I was not much of a big spender, focusing instead on saving money towards my goal of buying a dairy farm. I managed to save $700 a month of the $900 a month I was earning working on the farm in Nova Scotia. At the age of 25, I began looking around and found this nice working dairy farm in beautiful northwest New Brunswick. I indeed had enough money saved up for a down payment for that farm, and bought it in 1991.Not coming from a farming background, my attitude might differ from some other farmers. I feel I'm also a businessman. In my opinion, profit is not a bad word, including in a farm setting. Why would I want to work pretty much every day for long hours and not make any money doing it? It's the same for my 23-year-old daughter, who hopes to take over the family farm someday. She now works full time on the farm and sees the political climate we are in. The trade concessions have gotten her very concerned. She feels that we, as dairy producers, have been picked on from all sides. Over the years I have been following the situations that have occurred in Holland in respect to the dismantling of the Dutch quota system and all the hardship that it caused. I still talk sometimes to my agriculture school buddies about what they have had to endure. In no means was it pretty or easy. Canadian supply management, in my mind, consists of three pillars, like a three-legged milking stool: supply control, import control and a stable pricing system based on costs and markets. But the system only works if there is political will to safeguard the pillars. If any one pillar is taken away, like a stool, the stool will fall over. This brings me before you today. All during the time the negotiations went on for CUSMA, when people asked me if I was concerned about the outcome, I would say, “No, I am not.” I always said I had full faith in our government to stand up and defend supply management. Unfortunately, I was proven wrong. I think I and most other dairy farmers were very disappointed when the final details came out. We have a system here that ensures the primary producer, the farmer, gets a fair price for his product. By no means are we getting rich, but we're doing okay.I believe that farmers in other countries recognize that our supply management system does work well and that we do get a fair price for our product. I know for a fact that a lot of dairy farmers in other countries envy us. Unfortunately, it seems that rather than working towards improving their own system in their own countries, they are trying to compromise or infringe upon our system. I just don't understand that way of thinking of the other farmers in other countries. All the magazines I read from south of the border put CUSMA as a great win for their dairy farmers. In my mind, that would mean we got the short end of the stick.(1535) I have also read of farms south of the border that milk as many as 30,000 cows on one farm. That's equivalent to all the dairy farms in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia combined. Is that where we want to go? In my small community, I employ three people full time. One of them is my 23-year-old daughter. I also use land belonging to several of my neighbours, and at times even employ my neighbours as needed. I employ about six high school students to work shifts during milking, giving them experience in work ethic and some spending money.If farming becomes too challenging due to these trade agreements, I and other dairy farmers might have to stop farming. Therefore, there would be essentially no economic activity left in our community. If Canadian dairy farmers are forced to abandon their livelihood, this would contribute to the ongoing decline of our rural communities. This might be why my local MP, Mr. Bragdon, asked me to appear before you. He is very aware of what will happen if farms keep disappearing from his riding. Remember that any kind of farming is, and has to be, a business.Another side effect of this agreement is that we had a processor who was going to upgrade and expand a processing plant in New Brunswick. This processor now has indefinitely postponed this project due to uncertainty. We Maritimes producers are very concerned about keeping processing in our region.I now want to touch on the compensation package promised, and partly delivered, for CETA and CPTPP. I haven't heard anything about the remaining years and how it will be paid out. That in itself concerns me. The compensation package is bittersweet. Most farmers, including me, received a payment in December of last year for those previous trade agreement concessions. As far as I am aware, no concrete timeline has been set for the next payments. We, as dairy farmers, have always prided ourselves on getting all our money from the marketplace. This is how the system is supposed to work. This is how it did work. The government trading away excess and then offering compensation is not what we want. Having the supply management system tampered with by government trade concessions to the point where we're now looking for compensation should tell you how bad these concessions are hurting us. To be honest, the words “no more concessions will be made” sound a bit hollow to me, as this was the line all along. Of course, we're now getting concerned by the possible trade talks that will happen sometime with the U.K. I don't pretend to know all the precise details of the agreement. We as dairy farmers have DFC for that. You can probably stump me pretty easily with some in-depth questions. But one thing that stands out to me in CUSMA is the oversight and export cap clause that this government has granted the U.S. I just do not understand how one country, that being Canada, can allow another country, that being the U.S.A., to dictate where and how much it can export to a third country. It's even more frustrating as our domestic market is being given away.In conclusion, if I could make any suggestion, it would be that compensation for all the agreements will help to maintain my farm and business and allow us to manage for my family's future. As my business model was based on producing milk, I now will need the compensation money to keep the farm viable and profitable for my daughter. Keep in mind that the last 10% to 15% of the milk produced on any farm is the cheapest milk for the farmer to produce, and the most profitable. Having that share of the milk market traded away means we will need compensation funding to continue to innovate and adapt to this new market reality.Finally, anything you could do to prevent further concessions and limit the U.S.A.'s ability to oversee our system and limit exports would be positive for dairy farmers like me.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationSupply managementTrade agreements60786016078602607860360786046078605607860660786076078608607860960786106078611607861260786136078614607861560786166078617607861860786196078620Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson (President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture): (1540)[English] Thank you for this opportunity to present today on a trade agreement that is important to the success of Canada's agriculture community and industry. Agriculture is an essential part of the economic, political and social fabric of Canada and it is critical to the well-being of all Canadians. It plays a strategic role in and is the backbone of rural communities. Agriculture and agri-food make a significant contribution to the Canadian economy, directly providing one in eight jobs, employing 2.1 million people in rural and urban Canada and accounting for 6.7% of total GDP.A significant part of Canadian agriculture and agri-food's growth and success is due to international trade agreements and subsequent export market development and sales. Canada's market is just too small to accommodate the growth potential of what has become a world-renowned, efficient and low-cost agriculture industry. Currently the industry relies on export markets for at least 60% of its output. Consequently, the industry is always on the lookout for additional profitable markets and easily awaits the outcome and potential opportunities of any and every bilateral or multilateral trade negotiation.Having said that, it's equally important to recognize that our supply-managed sectors have built stable and viable industries without reliance on export markets, and it's important to ensure that they are not undermined and destabilized in any trade agreements Canada negotiates.The North American Free Trade Agreement has underpinned growth in agriculture production and processing not only in Canada but also in the U.S. and Mexico. It creates a market of 449 million consumers and generates agri-food and seafood trade of $289 billion. The benefits of NAFTA are undisputed and have been since its implementation. Nearly 80% of Canada's total processed food exports go to the U.S. and Mexico. Canada is the number one supplier of agriculture goods to the U.S., and we have considerable potential to increase ag trade with Americans. With its growing middle class, the same goes for Mexico, where Canada is the second most important supplier of agriculture goods. Furthermore, integration between Canada and the U.S. is such that our respective industries have grown to rely on open borders to strengthen and feed each other. A specific state example points us to the $2 billion Canadian in trade we do with Iowa. It exports close to $300 million in animal feed to Canada, imports around $170 million in live hogs from Canada, and then turns around and sends us $180 million in fresh and frozen pork. Trade and investment with Canada creates 100,000 jobs in Iowa. CFA, from the beginning, maintained that NAFTA did not need renegotiation, that changes and improvements could well be made within the agreement already in place. The priority of course was to maintain the benefits that Canadian agriculture was already enjoying. In short, supply-managed sectors would not be undermined through market access concessions, achieve imported market access for our sugar beet producers, and advance regulatory alignment and domestic support equity. In reviewing the new agreement, CUSMA, it is evident that the open borders and subsequent market benefits from NAFTA remain largely intact. In fact, some additional benefits were achieved, but they came with a price, and some may say, far too heavy a price. It is clear that the Alberta sugar beet producers came away with the biggest gain. Ever since the original CUSFTA, where the requirement to institutionalize TRQs at historic import levels was ignored by the U.S., our sugar industry has dealt with a very restrictive U.S. TRQ. In CUSMA, our access for sugar beets was more than doubled to a total of 20,000 tonnes. Central to the success of any trade agreement is the ability to reduce no-tariff trade barriers. This includes a process for regulatory transparency, co-operation and alignment. CFA applauds the efforts made by our government to include the provisions set out in chapter 28 of the agreement, which calls for transparency and a process for communication and co-operation among North American regulatory authorities. The establishment of a committee on good regulatory practices composed of government representatives, including from central regulatory agencies, will enhance collaboration with a view to facilitating trade between the parties. (1545) Canada tried hard to have the U.S. remove the requirement for Canadian meat imports to be reinspected when they cross the border, but to no avail. This issue should be one of the priorities on good regulatory practices to go before the committee.Canadian agriculture has built and developed a successful export industry, but its success is contingent on operating within a robust rules-based trading system. An important component of such a system is an effective dispute settlement mechanism. For that reason, maintaining chapter 19 was critical and will be an important element in creating a level playing field.American farmers have long had the ability to sell and ship wheat to Canadian terminals just across the border and have negotiated prices reflective of quality. However, even though the price may have reflected the grade quality, the documented designation did not reflect the grade. This agreement calls for the Canadian grade to be assigned to the imported product with appropriate documentation. CFA has been assured this will not compromise our system of variety registration.Canada paid a very high price for the conclusion of CUSMA renegotiations by conceding significant dairy, turkey, chicken and table eggs market access to the U.S. It's another economic hit in the wake of CPTPP and CETA with the accumulation of access concessions devastating supply-managed industries. For example, by 2024 the combined market access concessions made by Canada under the WTO, CETA, CPTPP and CUSMA will represent 18% of our dairy market.Supply-managed industries are anxiously waiting for government to fulfill its commitment to quickly and fully mitigate the impacts of these trade agreements. As well, every effort needs to be made to eliminate all forms of TRQ circumvention—circumventions that escalate the volume of imports far beyond the negotiated TRQs.Two other issues in addition to market access concessions which cause alarm for the industry are the concessions Canada made with respect to policy development and export controls. Canada has agreed to consult with the U.S. before making changes to Canadian dairy policies. This is clearly a loss of sovereignty in Canadian policy development and one that should never have been surrendered.Second, Canada agreed to cap dairy sector exports of milk protein concentrates, skim milk and infant formula to CUSMA and non-CUSMA countries with an applied export charge on exports over the cap. This is disturbing on several fronts. Canada has long argued against the use of export tariffs to regulate trade and it sets a dangerous precedent by allowing a regional trade agreement, and a party in that agreement, to control trade of another party to countries outside the agreement.Finally, it's a precedent that may have implications for Canadian export reliant agricultural sectors. If Canada exports to other countries and out-competes U.S. products, the U.S. may try to use CUSMA or some other mechanism to manage and restrict Canadian trade to the rest of the world.In conclusion, CFA applauds government for its part in consummating an agreement. The importance of profitable markets around the world for Canadian agriculture cannot be overstated. However, the CFA would implore government to negotiate successful trade agreements in agriculture without paying the heavy price we have in the past with access concessions in supply-managed domestic markets.Thank you.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Federation of AgricultureDairy industryFarming and farmersGovernment billsQuality controlSupply managementTrade agreementsWheat and wheat growing6078623607862460786256078626607862760786286078629607863060786316078632607863360786346078635607863660786376078638607863960786406078641Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekMarkNantaisMark-NantaisInterventionMr. Mark Nantais (President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association): (1550)[English]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Good afternoon, honourable members.I'm pleased to be here today representing Fiat Chrysler Automobiles Canada, Ford Motor Company of Canada and General Motors of Canada Company.Our members operate four assembly plants, as well as engine and components plants. They invest many billions of dollars in the development of zero-emission technologies and advanced vehicle safety technologies. We have over 1,300 independent dealerships across Canada, and we contribute quality employment opportunities for over half a million Canadians.The CVMA has been a primary advocate of CUSMA, and we recommend passage of Bill C-4 without delay. The passage of CUSMA is essential to provide certainty to North American automobile manufacturers. The automotive provisions, as well as the side letters that provide protection from the U.S. section 232 tariff actions, are indeed critical elements to support automotive manufacturing competitiveness within the North American trade bloc.It's important to remember that, for the auto sector in Canada, the alternative to reaching this agreement was the cancellation of NAFTA, the reimposition of tariffs on finished vehicles and parts, and likely section 232 tariffs on input materials. So, if we are anxious to see ratification, that is indeed why.We again want to say thank you to the Canadian negotiators for working so closely with us and ultimately ensuring that we maintain Canada's auto sector as a truly integrated part of the North American industry. This agreement was existential for Canada's largest manufacturing and export industry.The agreement reinforces the long-established integration of the auto industry supply chain necessary for its competitiveness and, importantly, the ongoing need for continued regulatory alignment with the United States of vehicle technical regulations that are integral to trade and the environment while ensuring greater consumer product choice and affordability.The auto portions of the new agreement, including the rules of origin, the labour value content provisions and the section 232 side agreements, are things that all our members support and can adjust to over a reasonable time period so that we will remain compliant, enabling us to continue to enjoy duty-free access to the largest and most beneficial auto market in the world.Since the Auto Pact of 1965, Canada's automotive industry and its supply chains have become deeply integrated with the United States and, over time, with Mexico. Vehicles are built seamlessly on both sides of the border. The resulting deep integration has led to a more competitive Canadian auto industry, greater consumer choice at more affordable prices and a strong North American trade bloc.When the original NAFTA came into force in 1994, it provided a foundation for a strongly global competitive trade bloc. The geographic proximity of the three NAFTA partner facilities, the multi-billion dollar sectors, the parts sector and the just-in-time supply chains are critical to vehicle assembly operations in North America. It also created inherent transportation and supply chain logistics cost advantages.Today, automotive manufacturing represents the second-largest Canadian export sector, with $54 billion in trade in 2019. Ninety-two per cent of the total value of that was to the United States. The United States is our number one automotive trade partner, and it's absolutely critical that a trade agreement be in place to provide the foundation for Canadian automotive production and exports in the future.We must always keep in mind that Canada is one-tenth of a complex, fully integrated long-lead industry. Multi-billion dollar product plans and manufacturing investment plans generally begin over five years in advance of the start of production. Planners require regulatory certainty to make their decisions. They especially need Canada to maintain fully harmonized safety, vehicle GHG, criteria emissions regulations with the United States.This remains imperative if we are to continue to be part of this fully integrated, long-lead, high-capital-cost industry. Put simply, we did not work this hard to modernize integrated rules of trade in North America to then take our eye off the ball and drift away with unique or different regulations. That could actually put us back to square one and leave us on the sidelines.Canada's officials must also maintain a high degree of engagement with their counterparts in the U.S. and Mexico. We cannot relax our efforts to ensure that Canada is sufficiently competitive to win future manufacturing investments that anchor much of the Canadian automotive supply chain. Canada must have competitive, in fact, more competitive, costs of auto operation in Canada, including investment incentives, carbon costs, competitive labour agreements, taxes that keep pace with the United States, competitive electricity prices and competitive regulatory regimes.It's important to remember that the auto sector is going through one of the most dramatic periods of change in its 100-year history for auto technology and mobility business models. We must work closely together with the Canadian industry and all levels of government to demonstrate that Canada is the best place anywhere to invest in the future of this important industry.(1555) In closing, we fully respect the committee's need to hear Canadians and ask questions. We have worked with all parties over the last two years to discuss this very complex issue. We have been truly involved, and we appreciate your interest and open dialogue. We thank you for that, but we must ask you to ratify this agreement promptly.I'd be pleased to answer any questions.Automotive industryC-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Vehicle Manufacturers' AssociationGovernment billsTrade agreements607864460786456078646607864760786486078649607865060786516078652607865360786546078655607865660786576078658607865960786606078661Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekPierreLampronPierre-LampronInterventionMr. Pierre Lampron (President, Dairy Farmers of Canada): (1555)[Translation]Good afternoon. On behalf of the Dairy Farmers of Canada, I want to thank you for the opportunity to offer our perspectives on Bill C-4 concerning the Canada — United States — Mexico Agreement.I'm accompanied by Jacques Lefebvre, our chief executive officer, and Chris Cochlin, our legal advisor from Cassidy Levy Kent LLP. Mr. Cochlin is an expert in international trade.The vast majority of politicians in this country say that they support supply management. However, in the end, actions speak louder than words. Today, with CUSMA, supply management has never been more weakened. There's no doubt that Canadian dairy farmers have been hit by the three most recent trade agreements. This is something that even the Government of Canada recognizes.When the imports already authorized under the WTO and the access previously granted under the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, or CETA, and the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, or CPTPP, are added together, these total imports will be equivalent to 18% of Canadian milk production by 2024. CUSMA also gives the United States oversight over the management of our dairy system by requiring a consultation with them prior to any changes in its administration.Is this not an abdication of the independence of Canadian decision-making and our sovereignty? Have we negotiated reciprocity with the United States, given the non-tariff barriers that our products must face in order to enter the American market?The Prime Minister has repeatedly committed to full and fair compensation to the dairy sector for the cumulative impacts of CETA, CPTPP and CUSMA. In terms of the first two agreements, at the end of 2019, we received a first instalment representing a little more than 12% of the total promised compensation. We await guarantees that the sums still to come are locked in. Once again, actions speak louder than words.This compensation doesn't include CUSMA. Some wonder why financial compensation is being offered instead of programs.First, our recent experience with programs set up to mitigate agreements with Europe hasn't been conclusive. Of the $250 million granted, almost 10% was allocated to the administration of the program by the public service. This amounts to $22 million returned to state coffers for the administration of the program by federal public servants. The remaining sums benefited only a small number of producers.Second, the compensation formula announced in August 2019 is consistent with the recommendations of the mitigation working group created by the federal government after the signing of CUSMA. However, beyond the numbers, realities on the ground affect some 11,000 families across the country.My experience isn't unique, but it sheds light on why financial compensation is needed. When my brothers and I took over the family farm some 30 years ago, we knew that the market was equivalent to the potential of Canadian consumers. We made calculations and projections on this basis. We determined that we could make ends meet despite the significant costs associated with acquiring a farm.The Canadian government will have ceded nearly one-fifth of our production to foreigners by 2024. We know now that our business plan didn't take into account the fact that our market would be conceded in this way. If we had known this, my brothers and I would have given serious thought to whether it was worth it to take over the family farm. This would be true of any business confronted by a loss of nearly 20% of its market.However, since the concessions have been granted, we have a few recommendations.We recommend that the Canadian government continue to give dairy farmers, in the form of direct payments, the remaining seven years of full and fair compensation to mitigate the impacts of CETA and CPTPP. We ask that the total amount be formally accounted for within the 2020 main estimates and that the government announce the amount of compensation for CUSMA prior to its entry into force.On the other hand, CUSMA contains a provision that imposes export taxes, above a certain threshold, on skim milk powder, milk protein concentrate and infant formula.(1600)This threshold is draconian. In the first year of the agreement, it represents about half our exports for 2018, and then it declines. This export tax undermines the competitiveness of our products in relation to the products of other global players, including the United States. This provision sets a dangerous precedent for any dairy product that may be exported.In addition, if CUSMA enters into force before August 1, the beginning of the dairy year, the export thresholds will see a dramatic decline of nearly 35% after only a few months. For Canadian dairy producers, CUSMA presents a fourfold threat.On the one hand, we've conceded more of our domestic milk production to foreign producers for products that will end up on our shelves. These products will be made from foreign milk whose production is directly and indirectly subsidized, which isn't the case here. This results in cheaper milk for foreign processors that export products here. This gives rise to the question of whether this unfair competition constitutes the dumping of foreign dairy products on our shelves.At the same time, we face export barriers for dairy products made with milk from our own country. Add to that the fact that our border is porous and the government isn't in a position to test foreign dairy products coming into the country. It's important to note that these products aren't subject to the same production standards to which we adhere.Given the impact on our industry and the dangerous precedent set by the export thresholds, we call on the government to take mitigating steps. We understand that this could be done through administrative measures after the ratification of CUSMA, on a voluntary basis, without reopening the agreement.When it comes to controlling our borders, the government must commit to giving the Canada Border Services Agency the resources and training to enable officers to fully play their roles. After our discussions with the union management, we're convinced that the officers expect nothing less.Canadian dairy producers are committed to the highest standards of sustainable production. This is done through the proAction program. These standards come with costs for farmers. For example, unlike American producers, our Canadian producers don't use artificial growth hormones to increase milk production at the expense of the health of the cows.Instead of supporting our farmers so that they can maintain these rigorous production standards, the government has chosen to open its market to surpluses of foreign dairy products that don't meet our domestic standards.In conclusion, the Dairy Farmers of Canada understand the importance of international trade to the Canadian economy in general. They aren't opposed to Canada exploring or entering into new trade agreements. However, let's be realistic. All countries have both offensive and defensive interests when it comes to trade negotiations. The United States, for example, has a long tradition of protecting their sugar, cotton and dairy sectors. Unlike in Canada, these industries receive production subsidies, directly or indirectly, from the American government.The defence of supply management has never prevented Canada from entering into an international trade agreement. Trade negotiations don't seek to pit one Canadian industry against another. However, we firmly believe that access to the Canadian dairy market should no longer be the price of entry into these agreements. Despite the government's assurances, we remain concerned about what could be conceded in a free trade agreement with Great Britain. It's also important to consider that the impacts of recent trade agreements weren't limited to dairy farmers.The Canadian government should also provide full and fair compensation to dairy processors, in addition to Canada's poultry and egg farmers. Lastly, the time may have come for a committee of the House of Commons or Senate, or even of both, to look into the possibility that foreign dairy products are being dumped in Canada. Your farmers aren't scared of international competition, provided that there's a level playing field.I'll be pleased to answer your questions.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy Farmers of CanadaDairy farmingGovernment billsGovernment compensationQuality controlSupply managementTrade agreements60786656078666607866760786686078669607867060786716078672607867360786746078675607867660786776078678607867960786806078681607868260786836078684607868560786866078687607868860786896078690Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC): (1605)[Translation] Thank you, Madam Chair.I want to thank the committee members for the opportunity to be here today to ask a few questions regarding an issue that has kept me busy in recent years.In concrete terms, I've enjoyed working very passionately with the people in the Canadian agricultural sector.I also want to thank you, Ms. Robinson. I was very pleased to work with you.Obviously, one issue has been of greater concern to us than other issues in recent months, especially in Quebec. That issue is dairy production.Although there has yet to be an announcement on compensation for the new free trade agreement with the United States, we expected the government to tell us its intentions before asking us to sign the agreement. We haven't heard any news. We still don't know what will happen to the remaining seven years of compensation for the other agreements previously announced. We're also concerned about this issue.We expected that the dairy processors would receive compensation, but we've had no news on that front. There's still absolutely nothing for egg and poultry farmers.You can appreciate why it's important for us, on the opposition side, to have the opportunity to ask you questions about this free trade agreement. That's why we want to thank you for being here to answer these questions.Last week, I was particularly surprised to hear the presentation given by Chrystia Freeland, Deputy Prime Minister, who was here at the Standing Committee on International Trade.I listened carefully to her presentation. In response to a question about the new export tariffs on milk proteins, such as skim milk powder or infant formula, Ms. Freeland said that the supply management sector was consulted extensively regarding the imposition of export tariffs on powdered milk.(1610)I would translate that as “consulté intensément.” You're part of the supply management sector, because you were the representatives of the Dairy Farmers of Canada. Do you consider that you were “consulted extensively” on the Canadian government's new approach?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60787066078707607870860787096078710607871160787126078713607871460787156078716Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJacquesLefebvreJacquesLefebvreJacques-LefebvreInterventionMr. Jacques Lefebvre (Chief Executive Officer, Dairy Farmers of Canada): (1610)[Translation]Thank you for your question, Mr. Berthold.Throughout the negotiation, there were information sessions. There were also consultations on certain items. However, we weren't consulted regarding the magnitude of the export thresholds. These thresholds would apply beyond the signatory countries, along with the provision giving the United States oversight over the administration of the dairy system.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60787176078718LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1610)[Translation]We're stunned. This is different from the statements made by Ms. Freeland here in the committee and in the House of Commons, when she urges the opposition to move quickly. She told us that all the consultations were done, and that extensive consultations on exports and tariffs were held.I gather that the government didn't consult you on this issue. You've just made that quite clear.Was there any discussion on this? Were you advised that this option would be put on the table? Did you learn this, as we did, after the end of the negotiations?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements607871960787206078721JacquesLefebvreJacquesLefebvreJacquesLefebvreJacques-LefebvreInterventionMr. Jacques Lefebvre: (1610)[Translation]The comment made be the Deputy Prime Minister concerned a fairly wide range of people. We're producers, but we aren't the only producers.As for us, the Dairy Farmers of Canada, we weren't consulted on these measures.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsPublic consultationTrade agreements60787226078723LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1610)[Translation]Do you know whether other countries that have free trade agreements allow this type of agreement? Have you ever seen a country with which we have a free trade agreement be allowed to decide that we can't sell milk powder to other countries that aren't part of the agreement?Have you seen this in your field? Does this exist elsewhere in other agreements, or is this a first?C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsTrade agreements607872460787256078726JacquesLefebvrePierreLampronPierreLampronPierre-LampronInterventionMr. Pierre Lampron: (1610)[Translation]I don't think that I've seen this. That's why I mentioned it in our brief. The sovereignty of the country is really under attack. Perhaps our expert, Mr. Cochlin, could tell us whether he has seen any cases of this nature.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy industryGovernment billsTrade agreements6078727LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableChristopherCochlinChristopherCochlinChristopher-CochlinInterventionMr. Christopher Cochlin (International Trade Legal Advisor, Cassidy Levy Kent LLP, Dairy Farmers of Canada): (1610)[Translation]As far as we know, there are no precedents. As we've already heard, this is a first. Other agreements are somewhat similar, but the idea of applying export tariffs to sales in third markets is really new.C-4, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementDairy Farmers of CanadaDairy industryGovernment billsTrade agreements6078728PierreLampronLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE