//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.)): (1400)[English] We'll call the meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 60 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting to study the coming into force of Bill C-208, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation). We went through the rules for this room this morning, on the pandemic and social distancing and so on, so we don't need to go through those again. We'll start with the witnesses. I see, Ms. Aitken, you've been working steadily. We've had you on screen here and you've been getting a lot of work done while you've been waiting for us to come on. We welcome Ms. Aitken, executive director and senior general counsel, finance legal services, law branch. Then we have Mr. Jovanovic, associate assistant deputy minister, tax policy branch; and Trevor McGowan, director general, tax legislation division, tax policy branch. Trevor is no stranger to this committee. I think he has spent pretty near as many hours as some of us have. Am I right, Ed?I don't believe there's an opening statement. If there is, raise your hand or yell. Otherwise we'll start with questions, six-minute rounds, with Mr. Fast, Ms. Dzerowicz, Mr. Ste-Marie and Ms. Mathyssen. Mr. Fast, you're first on deck. Welcome. Go ahead.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): (1400)[English]Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions will be for Mr. McGowan.Trevor, you've been at parliamentary committees many times before, as the chair has suggested, so you know the drill. When private members' legislation comes before a committee, we generally have a robust discussion about the legislation. The government, through its MPs, has the ability to bring forward amendments that would fix loopholes or deficiencies in those bills.Mr. McGowan, you were present at committee as a witness, as Bill C-208 was being discussed. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan (Director General, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance): (1400)[English] That is correct.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxDepartment of FinancePrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1400)[English]All right. Your recent press release, the finance department's press release dated July 19, highlights four specific loopholes that it feels should be fixed in Bill C-208. My question to you is, when you appeared before committee as a witness to discuss this bill, did you or any of your officials recommend amendments that would have addressed the shortcomings Bill C-208 had, and specific wording for those amendments?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1400)[English]As was stated, my colleague Shawn Porter and I appeared before the House finance committee and the Senate committee on agriculture to discuss Bill C-208 and provide comments on the technical aspects of the bill. During that time, we provided technical commentary and analysis in respect of the bill, but our involvement was limited to that. We weren't suggesting amendments, but certainly we did raise some of the concerns that are alluded to or mentioned in the July 19 press release.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1400)[English]What was the purpose of your appearing before committee if there was no process by which Finance could inform the committee and provide it with the assistance and the wording for amendments that could have fixed the so-called loopholes that you've identified after the fact?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1400)[English]As I understood it, the purpose of my appearance before the House finance committee was to provide information and analysis on the technical aspects of the bill so that members of the committee had the appropriate information to make decisions.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1405)[English]Okay, so after royal assent, somebody in government, maybe in Finance or maybe in the Prime Minister's Office, made the decision to announce that Bill C-208 would not be applied. In other words, it wouldn't be implemented right away. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1405)[English]Just to be technical in the terminology, when Bill C-208 received royal assent, it became effective. It became part of law. It amended the Income Tax Act. On June 29, the date of royal assent, Bill C-208 amended the Income Tax Act. As of that date, the provisions it had amended were part of Canadian law. That's the date on which it came into law. That's just a fact and not something that could be changed.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1405)[English] Well, let me say this: I'm so glad that you're now acknowledging that Bill C-208 became the law on June 29. It's something that was not reflected in your June 30 press release. I want to know who it was in your department, or who it was in government, who made the decision not to respect Bill C-208 and issue the press release that led to the confusion, and quite frankly the bewilderment, of the small business community in Canada.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1405)[English]I suppose there are two things to discuss there. The first relates to the decision-making process in terms of the press release. In that, the department follows the regular approval process that we use for all of our public communications projects, in alignment with the requirements of the federal communications policy. In terms of the substantive portion of the question, as I said, on June 29 Bill C-208 produced its effect and amended the Income Tax Act. The government's announcement on June 30 was that the government proposes to introduce legislation providing that the amendments would apply only as of January 1, 2022. It's perhaps a technical point that the June 30 amendment would amend the Income Tax Act, which had been amended by Bill C-30 ahead of time, but the government was announcing its intention to table legislation to provide a January 1, 2022, application date.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1405)[English]Trevor, really, that is a re-characterization of what has happened. The June 30 press release made it very clear that the government was going to withhold implementation of Bill C-208 until it had a chance to amend it. In that, it was moving in a way that effectively defied the will of Parliament. My question, which you didn't answer, is who in Finance or who in government actually made the decision that was then reflected in the press release that was issued on June 30?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1405)[English]Well, as I said, getting back to the—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1405)[English]Answer the question.TrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1405)[English]—approval process for the press release, it followed the normal federal communications policy, which involved a number of groups or branches within the Department of Finance working on the press release, so—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1405)[English]I'm not asking about process. I'm asking who made the final decision—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]Mr. Fast, give Mr. McGowan the opportunity and the courtesy of time to answer the question—EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1405)[English]With respect, Mr. Chair, you know what he's doing. He's not answering the question. I asked who, and he will not provide me with that answer. All we want to know is this: Who's the decision-maker who made the decision to issue the press release that reflected the government's decision not to respect the will of Parliament?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationNews releasesPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1405)[English]You've been in government, and in these matters it isn't usually a single individual.Mr. McGowan, answer as specifically as you can, please.EdFastHon.AbbotsfordTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1405)[English]Thank you. I just want it to be clear that in terms of the press release, we're being clear on specifically what it did. In terms of who made the decision, the press release stated that the “government” proposes to introduce legislation. That is a reference to the elected Government of Canada and its intention to table a bill. That is a proposal of the Government of Canada and not—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationNews releasesPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1410)[English]That's right. Let me stop you right there.TrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]You're out of time, but I will give you and others time as well. That will be the last question.EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1410)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Who in the elected government made the decision to issue this release, or to instruct your department to issue this release, which has led to all of this confusion?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]Mr. McGowan, I believe you answered that question, but go ahead. We'll give you another snap at it.EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1410)[English]No, he hasn't answered the question. Who in the elected government made that decision?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]That's the last question, Mr. Fast.EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1410)[English]You guys are awful.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English] I have a point of order from Mr. Gerretsen. I'm sorry, Mr. McGowan.EdFastHon.AbbotsfordMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands, Lib.): (1410)[English]With all due respect, Mr. Chair, Mr. Fast just said, off the cuff, “You guys are awful.” Can he explain who he is referring to? Is it the departmental officials who are before us? If so, he owes an apology for that comment.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]I'm going to leave it at that. You've made your point.Mr. McGowan, do you want to say a couple of last words in this round? Then we'll move on to Ms. Dzerowicz.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1410)[English]As I said, it was an announcement of the government's proposal. As we start with the approval process, of course the Department of Finance officials provide advice to the minister, and then we implement the government's decisions. I was simply trying to highlight the fact that this was a government proposal to table a bill in Parliament that would affect the application date of the amendments included in Bill C-208.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]Thank you.TrevorMcGowanEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1410)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, my comment that “you guys are awful” was not addressed to our civil servants, and it certainly wasn't addressed to Mr. McGowan. It was addressed to my Liberal friends across the table from us, who were heckling and guffawing about our asking very significant questions of Mr. McGowan related to Bill C-208.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1410)[English]We'll leave it at that on the across the table. We're more than two sword lengths apart here, so we're okay at the moment. We will go to Ms Dzerowicz. Because we don't have the witnesses here at the table, Mr. McGowan, if some of your other colleagues want to come in and assist on an answer or give an answer, they'll have to yell, I guess. It's the only way I can bring them in, or you can direct us that way.Ms. Dzerowicz, go ahead for six minutes, if you could, or a little better.EdFastHon.AbbotsfordJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz (Davenport, Lib.): (1410)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.I want to thank the three officials from our Department of Finance for being here today. I really appreciate their being here to answer our questions.I want to start off by clarifying a couple of things, because I think it's important to have this on the record. Could you please explain the difference between coming into force and application, or coming into effect?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1410)[English]It is a somewhat arcane thing that doesn't come up much, but it is critically important in the preparation of tax amendments.As I said initially, for example, the amendments in Bill C-208 came into force on the date they received royal assent; that is to say that the bill amended the Income Tax Act on that date.That doesn't necessarily mean their application to any particular transaction is going to be clear. In particular, when we're putting together income tax amendments, we typically set out specific application dates. For example, one reading of a coming-into-force date in the middle of a taxation year is that it applies to transactions that occur on or after the date of royal assent. Another reading of the measure is that because a taxpayer's liability for tax crystalizes at the end of the taxation year when it is computed, it's the law at the end of the taxation year that is relevant for the purposes of computing tax. A coming-into-force date that simply appears in the act on, let's say, June 29, is ambiguous in that it's not clear if it applies to transactions that occur on or after that particular date or for the 2021 taxation year. That's the reason we typically, in drafting income tax amendments, set out specifically when an amendment applies. It could apply, for example, in respect to transactions that occur on or after a particular date. It could apply as of a particular taxation year. There are a number of different formulations. We do that to address that and provide clarity—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1415)[English]Thank you. I'm sorry, but it's past two minutes now, and I have to get to a few more questions. I appreciate your response.I'll get to it very quickly. What was the intention behind the June 30 news release? Was it to change the coming-into-force date, the date on which Bill C-208 came into law?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1415)[English]I apologize. I'll try to be more brief.As I said, the coming into force of Bill C-208 was a factual matter. It amended the Income Tax Act on June 29. That's just when it produced its effect.The proposed amendment would.... Of course, it would have to be included in a bill, as stated. The government would have to propose it to introduce legislation, and that bill would need to receive royal assent. If passed, it would have the effect of providing that the amendments that had been made as a result of Bill C-208 would apply as of January 1, 2022.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1415)[English] It would go into effect, but the amendments would be applied after January 1, 2022, according to the news release.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1415)[English]Yes. It's quite common that when income tax amendments are made, they apply as of a future date. A bill like Bill C-30, the recent budget bill, might have a number of amendments that, even though it also received royal assent on June 29, might not start to apply until a later taxation year or a later date in the future, in order to give the taxpayers and the tax administration time to respond.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1415)[English]If I own a family farm right now and I decide I'm going to sell it to my daughter, and that transaction happens over the next month, what actually happens? Does Bill C-208 apply, or is whatever is passed or introduced as of November 1 retroactive to sales after June 29?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1415)[English]The July 19 announcement provided that Bill C-208 amendments currently apply and that any new amendments put forward by the government, which as we discussed would need to be included in a bill and passed through Parliament, would not apply before November 1, 2021.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1415)[English]If I sold a farm to my daughter right now, would Bill C-208 apply, including whatever amendments we actually make for the income tax provisions that we introduce after November 1?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1415)[English]The relevant provisions of the Income Tax Act as amended by Bill C-208 would apply to a transaction undertaken today. That's based on yesterday's press release. The government announced that any new amendments would not apply before November 2021. For any transaction undertaken between now and the end of October, the government announced that whatever new conditions it might include in the bill, which, again, would need to be passed by Parliament, would not apply.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1415)[English]I'm actually clear on that, thank you.I have another question. As you know, Mr. McGowan, the bill that finally passed.... It's actually after the third time of being introduced into the House of Commons that it has passed. It's been discussed for probably around 10 years within the finance department. We know that the U.S. and Quebec already have a model that works. Why is it taking so long to address the loopholes we've identified?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1420)[English]It's a complex issue with a number of competing factors. As I said in my earlier committee appearance, a lot of people have an intuitive sense of what it means to transfer a business to the next generation, but it is a difficult thing to legislate with precision so that all of the genuine intergenerational transfers are accommodated under the rules but more contrived or artificial transactions are not. It is a complex thing.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1420)[English]Thank you.TrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]Did you want to add more there, Trevor?JulieDzerowiczDavenportTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1420)[English]No, thank you.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1420)[English]All right. We'll go to Mr. Ste-Marie, followed by Ms. Mathyssen.TrevorMcGowanGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): (1420)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to welcome the witnesses and thank them for being with us today.Before I get to my questions, I want to recognize the important work that senior officials and all employees at the Department of Finance have done during the pandemic. This committee met often, and we regularly heard from department officials. They have done incredible work to save the economy. I want to commend them and thank them again for all their hard work.My questions are for Mr. McGowan.After yesterday's news release and Ms. Bendayan's earlier comments, everything was clear in my mind, but the answers, details and clarifications you gave Ms. Dzerowicz confused me. Therefore, I'm going to ask you the same question.Since Bill C‑208 received royal assent in June, the provisions in Bill C‑208 have applied in the case of parents who sell their farm or family business to their son or daughter. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFamilies and childrenPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1420)[English] Right now that is absolutely correct. What I was saying with respect to the government's July 19 announcement was that while the government has announced its intention to provide additional conditions that may need to be met at the end of a consultation process, those new conditions would not apply before November 2021. Right now the rules in the Income Tax Act that were amended by Bill C-208 are the law and can be relied upon.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFamilies and childrenPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1420)[Translation]Thank you.Julie Bissonnette of the Fédération de la relève agricole du Québec wanted us to ask you that question. Both my fellow member Ms. Dzerowicz and I have asked it now. You gave a clear answer, which I appreciate.Nevertheless, something you said in response to my fellow member's question worried me, and you said it again when you answered my question. You said that it has been that way since yesterday's news release. This morning, however, the law clerk for the House of Commons and former members of the House told the committee that it has actually been that way since the bill received royal assent, regardless of what the news release said. Yesterday's news release reiterated that fact. However, since Bill C‑208 received royal assent, it has been possible to sell a business for the purposes of an intergenerational transfer of a family farm with the usual rights and benefits. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1420)[English]If I understand the question correctly, right now the rules as enacted by Bill C-208 apply and can be relied upon. It is the law of the land.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1420)[Translation]Very good. Thank you.Now I'm going to move on to another topic; it has to do with the amendments. As you said, in yesterday's news release, the government announced its intentions to make changes to the amendments set out in Bill C‑208. It is our understanding that a new bill will be introduced to amend the changes contained in Bill C‑208, without altering the bill's intent.Something about this whole process surprises me. As we heard this morning, the first reading of the bill took place on February 19, 2020. That means the period between when the bill was given first reading and when it received royal assent was 527 days. As Mr. Dufresne, the law clerk, pointed out this morning, at almost every stage of the legislative process, the government could have brought forward the amendments it is now saying it will introduce in a future bill.I gather from the answers you gave Mr. Fast that, when Bill C‑208 was at committee stage, the government had not asked the Department of Finance to draft amendments to the bill that would close the potential tax loopholes. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1425)[English]As part of our committee appearance this spring to discuss Bill C-208, the departmental officials were present to help explain the technical aspects of the bill, and I would need to defer to the honourable chair of the committee in terms of the rules. I'm not even aware of whether departmental officials could table amendments to a bill at a committee hearing, or whether that would have to be done by another—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1425)[Translation]Pardon me, Mr. McGowan. I don't think I made myself clear. I meant that it was up to members of the government, not public servants or senior officials, to bring forward amendments that would have addressed the concerns you raised with the government regarding this bill.My question is this. Did the government ask you to draft amendments to rectify the potential problems resulting from Bill C‑208, amendments that could have been proposed when the bill was being studied by the committee? Did the government ask you to draft such amendments?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1425)[English] In connection with my last statement, I want to answer the questions as fully as possible, but that starts to get pretty close to describing our advice and internal instructions from the government. I would defer to my colleague Jenifer as to whether that's something that can be appropriately answered.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]Ms. Aitken, would you like to come in? I think it's pretty clear that the officials would advise government on what amendments should be made, and those would have to come forward at that stage as either government amendments or those by a member of the committee. I think that's the procedure.Ms. Aitken, do you want to come in?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanJeniferAitkenJeniferAitkenJenifer-AitkenInterventionMs. Jenifer Aitken (Executive Director and Senior General Counsel, Legal Services, Law Branch, Department of Finance): (1425)[English] Mr. Chair, I think you've expressed it very well in terms of what we are or are not at liberty to say. I agree with Mr. McGowan that we want to say everything we possibly can to be helpful—that's what we're here for—but we're not at liberty to talk specifically about questions of advice. I think, Mr. Chair, you explained the process.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxDepartment of FinancePrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]That's fine. We understand that there's the political side and there's your side. I thank you all for that round.We'll go to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes, and she will be followed by Mr. Kelly for five.JeniferAitkenLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP): (1425)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to back things up a little and go back into the history of this bill. As Ms. Dzerowicz mentioned, there were several iterations of it. Of course I refer to the NDP version of this, Bill C-274, which was actually voted against by this government, and which we were told would not pass. However, after the election, in budget 2019, it was indicated that a similar piece of legislation would come forward to help farmers, small businesses and fishing businesses, and in fact it was also in the minister's mandate letter from the Prime Minister. Can you indicate to this committee what plans and what directions were received from government, from the minister as directed by the PMO, to put forward this legislation? I think, to build upon what my colleague Mr. Ste-Marie was discussing, with all of that time and with those plans in place, why were a lot of the amendments that came forward under Bill C-208 not prepared for legislation?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-274, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1430)[English]Mr. McGowan or Ms. Aitken, we may be—LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1430)[English]That's for whoever is allowed to answer.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic (Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance): (1430)[English] Maybe I can take this one.Mr. Chair, I think the question goes somewhat in the same direction as the previous one. It seems to be related to the nature of the advice provided to the government. I don't think it would be appropriate for us to go into any detail as to the advice that was provided or what the advice would cover. I would just say our role as tax policy officials in the department is to make sure that on an ongoing basis the department and the government have all they need to make decisions. Our role is to try to provide advice to the extent possible and—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxDepartment of FinancePrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1430)[English]I appreciate and understand that, and I understand the response that was given previously. However, I would argue that this is actually the other way, right? This is direction from the government—coming through the minister, coming through a mandate later and coming through budget 2019—and you were told to put it forward in terms of ongoing or upcoming legislation that the government had in its plans. It would be going the other way.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1430)[English]I would maintain my answer, that effectively it would not be for me to say, for instance, what measure has been considered by cabinet, which would potentially become a cabinet confidence. I don't think I'm at liberty to say whether following the commitment made in 2019 or in the mandate letter a specific proposal had indeed been put forward and discussed with the government. I'm not sure I'm at liberty.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1430)[English]It's just the other way around, Ms. Mathyssen. I think Mr. Jovanovic is correct on that.MiodragJovanovicLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1430)[English] Okay. That's fair enough.Could we then discuss those specific amendments that are being brought forward and that were in the newly released press release in which clarification was provided? It's my understanding that the government said that parents could already sell to their children on a tax-free basis, using a lifetime capital gains exemption, before this Bill C-208 was brought forward. Is that true or is that false? I believe it was in a speech from Mr. Gerretsen, actually, when he was discussing Bill C-208.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFamilies and childrenPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1430)[English]That's correct. The amendments relating to Bill C-208 apply only where an individual sells shares to a corporation owned by their child or grandchild. On a direct sale of shares from a parent to their child, the anti-avoidance rule in section 84.1 would not apply, to cause there to be a dividend. In fact, assuming all the conditions are met, the lifetime capital gains exemption can apply to eliminate tax—or up to the lifetime capital gains exemption limit anyway—on any gains.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFamilies and childrenPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1430)[English]One of the requirements or the amendments being made was that enough time and a specific timeline be put forward for that transition to ensure that it was a legitimate.... It's the idea of a legitimate sale to a child. Within that Bill C-208 legislation, it also says, though, that the person receiving the gift of this farmer or small business would have to own it for five years. Why is that not good enough within the Bill C-208 legislation?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1435)[English]There are a few technical issues with that. First of all, the amendments enacted by Bill C-208 place the five-year, or 60-month, holding period on the corporation that purchases the shares from the parent, and not the child. There's actually no requirement in Bill C-208 that the child maintain any sort of share ownership in the business. It's the corporation that purchased it. The child could, in fact, sell the shares of the [Technical difficulty—Editor] within the five-year window.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]This is your last question, Ms. Mathyssen.TrevorMcGowanLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1435)[English]Well, it's just confusing. Where these amendments don't.... They seem to do what's already being done, and if not.... It's that there's a belief that ultimately these families and these children are trying to undermine the government, to take advantage of tax loopholes. I find it interesting that the government now is so interested in closing tax loopholes where it wasn't before. However, it seems that a lot of this was already done and that these amendments may be redundant.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]Do you have any thoughts on that, Mr. McGowan?LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1435)[English]As I said, the five-year holding period imposed by the rules enacted by Bill C-208 applies to the purchasing corporation and not the child. The child could sell within that period. It does not actually provide an effective rule that would require the child to indirectly hold shares for five years.I should say as well that the government's news release that went out yesterday did not provide specific amendments that would be made. Rather, it announced a general set of issues that would be taken into consideration in the development of draft legislative proposals. Those included the transfer of legal and factual ownership of the corporation to the child, the extent to which the involvement of the business is transferred from the parent to the child, and some other measures like that. It was more a description of the types of issues that would be considered in the development of draft legislation than a specific set of draft legislative proposals that was announced yesterday. The draft legislative proposals, I think, would be released at an early opportunity and then subject to comments. The final draft legislative proposals would be released later on.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]Thank you, all.We'll go to five-minute rounds.Mr. Kelly, you're up, followed by Mr. Fragiskatos.TrevorMcGowanPatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC): (1435)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. McGowan, Mr. Fast asked you many times in his opening statement who authorized the announcement or who decided to put that announcement out. The first several times, you didn't answer the question, merely referring to the regular process. The final time, you spoke of members of the elected government as making the decision on this announcement. By that I presume you mean the Prime Minister, other members of his cabinet, or the members of their offices who serve them. Can you tell the committee who in the elected government decided to put out the first notice on June 30 to announce that you were not implementing a law passed by Parliament?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1435)[English]Thank you for the opportunity to continue that. I apologize if my answers were a bit long-winded in getting to the point. To your question on who decided to announce that the amendments would apply as of June 30, as I said, it was an announcement of the Government of Canada. It's something that the department officials briefed on, the minister made her decision, and it was implemented—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1435)[English]Did I just hear you correctly that it was the minister who decided that you would delay implementation of a law passed by Parliament? Was that the Minister of Finance?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1435)[English]You see, that's part of the difficulty in answering the question, because the announcement was not to delay implementation of a bill passed by Finance. Rather, it was to table a bill in Parliament that would, if passed by Parliament and given royal assent, provide that amendments, or rules in the Income Tax Act that had been implemented through Bill C-208, apply starting as of January 1, 2022. Of course, as we discussed, the amendments to the Income Tax Act were made on June 29. There was nothing that could be delayed on that front. As I have said before, including before the senate committee on agriculture, the CRA would apply the law as enacted, because it is the law of the land, barring some future Parliament action.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1440)[English]Mere hours before this committee meeting was scheduled to begin, where parliamentarians could demand answers as to why this announcement of June 30 went out, there was a clarification to backpedal this announcement. Again, the question I really want clarity around is this: Whose idea was it in the first place to delay? The June 30 announcement is pretty clear. It talks about the absence of an application date. It talks about implementing on January 1 following amendments. You said “the minister” in your last answer to me. Can you clarify that you meant the Minister of Finance?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]Mr. Jovanovic.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1440)[English]I see that Mio has joined in.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1440)[English]Yes, if I may, Mr. Chair. Thank you. I think I would like to maybe go back to the nature of the announcement to understand the process here.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanPatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1440)[English]Please answer the question.MiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1440)[English]I think it's instrumental to understanding the decision process, because what happened in this instance is no different from what happens in all other instances where the elected government announces that it intends to table legislation, if Parliament approves, to modify existing legislation. Just to be clear, this is exactly what happened here with the announcement on June 30. It's no different. The process we follow is that typically we provide advice and options to the government. It's frank and impartial advice. The government deliberates. At the political level, it has its own set of considerations. We don't necessarily participate in those discussions. The government makes a decision, and we have to implement that. As part of the implementation, we continue to provide advice to make sure—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1440)[English] I'm sorry. I'm going to have to interrupt. You're—MiodragJovanovicWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]I'll give you the time. We'll go over the time a little, because we're going to have lots of time in this two-hour panel, but I want Mr. Jovanovic to have time to respond to the question.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1440)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.In this instance, when a decision is made to release that announcement, we want to make sure that the announcement reflects the decision of the government, that it is technically accurate, and that it is respectful of the role of Canadian institutions, including Parliament. That is our primary role and, to the extent possible, we hope we do it properly. When it comes to determining who made the decision, it's unfortunate but we really cannot provide more answer to that.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1440)[English]We've had about 10 minutes now of the question from my Conservative opposition colleagues, and in this time we've circled it down to a “minister” seems to have the decision. We can't confirm yet which one, but that was the question, whether it was the Minister of Finance. Further to that, I take you to the June 30 announcement. This announcement speaks of the bill having received royal assent but not having an application date. Then it goes on to talk about amending it and starting on January 1. I don't really even want to go down that path any further about what the amendments you may propose might be. We'd like to know who made the decision on that press announcement—which minister.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]I actually think, in fairness, Mr. Kelly, the witnesses have said all they can on that subject. Any decision is by executive council as a whole. Whatever specific minister helped make the decision, it's a matter of cabinet decision.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1445)[English]Did cabinet make the decision?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]Well, it's the executive council, at the end of the day. You know that. You've been in cabinet. Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordPatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1445)[English]This was a decision of cabinet, not of the department.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]I don't know if you want to add anything further on that, Mr. Jovanovic.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1445)[English]This was the decision of the executive council.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1445)[English]No, Mr. Chair, I think I'm fine.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]All right.We'll go to Mr. Fragiskatos.MiodragJovanovicPeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos (London North Centre, Lib.): (1445)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you to the officials. Mr. Chair, I will be splitting time with Mr. Gerretsen.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]We have lots of time for everybody to get on, if you don't want to split, but go ahead. You can split this time and come back later.Mr. Mark Gerretsen: I'm still going to take my turn.PeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1445)[English]There still may be an opportunity to split with Mr. Gerretsen. He can have his turn too.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]You can split and then come back and split again, if you like. Pat is going to chair for a minute.PeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1445)[English]For reasons that I'm about to put on record, Mr. Chair, I think you'll see why there's a need to split time. I guess this could go to any official, but I'll begin with you, Mr. McGowan. Did you have an opportunity to hear the testimony this morning offered by Mr. Dufresne, who serves, as you know, as Parliament's chief legal counsel and is the law clerk for Parliament?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1445)[English]Unfortunately, I was in meetings this morning, but I had a summary of that prepared for me by some of my colleagues.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1445)[English]As part of that summary, perhaps you would have seen that Mr. Dufresne made clear when I asked him—I think this question was put to him by others as well—that yesterday's press release clarifies the matter. If clarity was needed, yesterday's press release makes things absolutely crystal clear. That is to say that by recognizing Bill C-208 in the way that the government did yesterday, the matter is a matter of law that came into being through royal assent. While my friends in the opposition can point to one press release, interestingly enough they're pointing to one press release but not yesterday's. They're pointing to one released a few weeks ago.We've provided clarity here on the matter today through a meeting called by the chair. To his credit, I think it was a good idea to call the meeting. However, there's no air in this balloon, colleagues. I don't understand. We can go around and offer hypotheticals about what might be, what could be, what happens months from now and years from now, but that's all hypothetical. We have to focus on the concrete. I think we have, through the statement that was offered yesterday through the Department of Finance, a very clear understanding now that the government recognizes that Bill C-208 is a matter of law. Mr. McGowan, you offered an answer when prompted. I'm not sure who put the question. Maybe it was Mr. Fast. I remember your statement that Bill C-208 is now the “law of the land”. Is that accurate? Can we understand it that way?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1445)[English] Yes. It amended the Income Tax Act and produced its effect. The amendments it introduced are now part of the law of Canada.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1445)[English]Well, I'm satisfied. As I said before, I wanted that understanding, because I voted for this bill. I think it was worth supporting. We can go around, and colleagues will take their time to ask questions that they think need to be put on record. I won't question their privilege to do so, but we really are spinning our tires. I think the matter has been resolved. I'll turn to Mr. Gerretsen to fill out the rest of the time.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1445)[English]Given what the chair said, I think I'm the next person on our side anyway, so I'll just.... I don't think there was that much time left, was there?PeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pat Kelly): (1445)[English]There are a couple of minutes left, but if you—MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1445)[English]I'm going to challenge the chair on that, I think.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pat Kelly): (1445)[English]If you like, we can move on to the next speaker if you have nothing to add.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1445)[English] I'll just wait, unless another colleague would like to go.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pat Kelly): (1445)[English]Okay. Thank you.Next on our list is Mr. Ste-Marie for five minutes.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1445)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to start with a few comments.In yesterday's news release, the government recognized that Bill C‑208 has been law since it received royal assent. As I said this morning, I have no doubt that yesterday's news release had to do with the fact that the committee was recalled for a special meeting today. Again, hats off to us.My concerns stem from the questions I asked Mr. McGowan last time. In yesterday's news release, the government stated that Bill C‑208 had become law and that the law was the law, but the government also indicated that it would bring forward new legislation to amend the bill. Since the bill was studied for 527 days, I'm wondering why the government did not propose the amendments during the usual examination process. Five hundred and twenty-seven days is a long time.What's more, as has been mentioned, this isn't the first time Parliament has considered a bill like this. A few years ago, Liberal member Emmanuel Dubourg proposed similar legislation, as did the NDP's Guy Caron, not to mention my fellow Bloc Québécois member Xavier Barsalou‑Duval. Mr. Maguire's version was the one that finally took and got passed by Parliament.Although the bill received royal assent, the government did not recognize it as law, just as the government did not recognize the authority of the House of Commons. Threats were made, and the Standing Committee on Finance decided to hold an emergency meeting. That was when the government finally acknowledged the application date of the bill, while indicating that it would bring forward amendments. Why were those amendments not brought forward during the legislative process, which lasted 527 days?I asked the witnesses who were called before the committee whether the government had instructed them to draft amendments. I recall quite clearly that Mr. McGowan, among others, told the committee members that it was rather complicated, that numerous loopholes existed and that they needed to be closed. I then asked whether the Department of Finance had prepared, at the government's behest, amendments that could have been brought forward, voted on and adopted during that 527‑day period.Now, Mr. McGowan, Mr. Jovanovic and Ms. Aitken are saying that it is a matter of cabinet confidence and that they can't answer the question. My guess is that, if the amendments aren't ready yet, they will be soon, since the government announced that a bill containing the amendments was on the way.The government could be accused of being asleep at the wheel, because it dragged its feet and did not do what it should have—instruct the department to draft the amendments and bring them forward. On the committee and in the House, we were all able to work together harmoniously. I have no doubt that, had we studied the amendments, the level of co‑operation would have been high and the process would have been fruitful, but that was not the case. That makes me wonder what happened. Here's my theory.I think that, back in the spring, the government was considering calling an election, not caring too much about Bill C‑208—figuring it would die on the Order Paper. An election was coming, anyhow. When the third wave of the pandemic hit, the Liberals realized that they couldn't do as they had planned; they would lose face if they called an election in the spring. Subsequently, the bill received royal assent, which was seen as collateral damage in the government's little game of cards. The Liberals weren't expecting it. Now that the bill has received royal assent, they are saying 527 days was not enough time. They want to recognize the changes, but announced that they were going to bring forward new legislation to do what they should have done when the time was right. The level of ineptitude is astounding, and I have a real problem with that.Those are my comments. I have no questions.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English] You've used up all your time on your comment, if I might say so, Mr. Ste-Marie.Just so there's no confusion, the list is as follows: Ms. Mathyssen, Mr. Maguire, Ms. Bendayan, Mr. Berthold and Mr. Gerretsen. That's who I have on my list at the moment.We'll go to you, Ms. Mathyssen. You will have the same amount of time Gabriel had, about three and a half minutes.GabrielSte-MarieJolietteLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1450)[English]Thank you so much.If I may ask, what consultations have been done by the department, not on these exact amendments, but again, as you indicated, in terms of general questions on the amendments put forward in the press release from yesterday?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1450)[English]The press release announced a set of issues that would be considered as part of the consultations. It announced an intention to release draft legislative proposals in the near term. I believe the language was that they would be “forthcoming”. It put out the ideas under consideration in terms of how best to define a genuine intergenerational business transfer. Shortly, there would be a release of draft legislative proposals, which would provide—of course, as they would be legislative in nature—more specificity as to what those would look like. That release would be followed by another consultation period before, ultimately, final proposals were released. That would provide for a number of rounds of public consultation on the best way to define a genuine intergenerational business transfer. That's coming out of yesterday's release.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1455)[English]That was very general. There isn't a specific deadline. I mean, you certainly have the November deadline of being able to have this legislation passed, but you obviously have to do a lot of that consultation beforehand. How long would that level of consultation typically take, as far as you can estimate?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1455)[English]As has been noted, there was an announcement to put out draft legislative proposals shortly, and then a commitment that, whatever effective date those proposals could take, it would not be before November 1, 2021. It's difficult to provide a timeline in terms of putting together a set of draft legislative proposals of this complexity. I can speak to the general timeline for budget proposals, if that would be a helpful comparator. Often, in the federal budget, which is released in the spring, in March-April, the government will announce its proposed measures. For income tax measures it is common after the release of a budget announcement for there to be a summer release of draft legislative proposals. Those draft legislative proposals would go out for comment, often for a period of 60 days, before measures can be introduced into a fall budget bill. While of course it's impossible to predict with any certainty the timeline for this measure, that's not an uncommon timeline for at least some budget measures, if that would be a useful comparison.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1455)[English]How would a potential election disrupt? Would you be able to continue those consultations throughout that time, or would it put a hold on everything?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1455)[English]That depends on the specific rules for civil servants to interact during the part of the caretaker period after a writ has been dropped. Obviously, we would continue to analyze submissions. I don't know whether Miodrag or Jenifer know the specific rules for caretaker-stakeholder engagements on consultations.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1455)[English]Does anybody else want to come in here?TrevorMcGowanMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1455)[English]I don't have much to add to Mr. McGowan's statement. I think that's it. As long as it's internal work, we could focus on analyzing submissions that we may continue to get during that period. The question would be after that. If there was a need to reach out, we would need to be mindful of the caretaker convention.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1455)[English] Thank you.We'll go now to Mr. Maguire, followed by Ms. Bendayan.MiodragJovanovicLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire (Brandon—Souris, CPC): (1455)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Just for clarity, Mr. McGowan, I want to go back to a question that one of my Liberal colleagues asked you earlier in this area. You said that the current plan and the message to the small business owners is that Bill C-208 will be in effect, unaltered, until November 1. Can you confirm that any small business transfers to family members that take place between today, or even June 30, and November 1 will not be subject to retroactive application of any further amendments?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFamilies and childrenPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1455)[English]Yes. That was the government's announcement, that whatever conditions would be introduced in a later bill, which again would have to go through Parliament, those restrictions or conditions would not apply before November 1. From now until October 31, at a minimum, the law as enacted by Bill C-208 would apply.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFamilies and childrenPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1500)[English]I guess my question was to do with any amendments, but a new bill coming forward.... We don't have one now, because it's law, but could a new bill coming forward by the government be retroactive?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1500)[English]As we've discussed, these amendments to the Income Tax Act that were made by Bill C-208 are part of Canadian law and could only be changed through a subsequent bill tabled in Parliament that receives royal assent.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1500)[English][Inaudible—Editor] be made retroactive and in a new bill.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1500)[English]The government has announced that it would not apply before November 1, 2021. As a general rule, income tax amendments often apply as of the date of their announcement. For example, Bill C-30 received royal assent on the same day as Bill C-208. It was the first budget bill for 2021. That had a number of measures that had application dates based on March 18, 2019, the day of the 2019 federal budget related to, for example, the foreign affiliate dumping rules, some mutual fund trust measures using an allocation redeeming methodology, and individual pension plans. Several amendments had their application dates based upon—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-30, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 19, 2021 and other measuresCapital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1500)[English]The government was supposed to be, as the press release said yesterday, clarifying. That was the title put on it, that the government “clarifies taxation for intergenerational transfers of small business shares”, yet we have this confusion. There's a contradiction. Obviously, a correction was tried, because the government thought on June 30 that it could go retroactive and make amendments to do it. Now it's saying it can't—or won't. I think there's a big difference between “can't” and “won't”. If you bring in a new bill, obviously it could go back retroactively, even if the press release is.... Press releases aren't law. I guess all I'm asking you is whether we can get clarification on that.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1500)[English]Jenifer, did you want to comment on the ability of Parliament to pass retroactive tax bills?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1500)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, is this a hypothetical question? We are asking officials to speak on behalf of what the government intention is with respect to the press release of yesterday indicating that we would introduce safeguard measures and amendments to the legislation. I clarified this morning that it is not the government's intention to bring any legislation retroactively. I'm not sure why we're asking officials for something that they do not control.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanPatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1500)[English]I'd like to speak to the point of order.RachelBendayanOutremontWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]I'll go to Mr. Maguire first on the point of order.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1500)[English]I think therein lies the point of order. She said it's not their “intention”, not that they won't. I mean, it's still ambiguous.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Mr. Kelly.LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisPatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1500)[English]I think this is really the same line of questioning, in a way, that Ms. Dzerowicz introduced earlier in her testimony, so I presume it's relevant.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]I will let Ms. Aitken answer, but I think we need to come back to the minister's press release at some point and say what the intention of the government is by someone who can speak for the government. The minister was very clear, in my view, in terms of her press release.Ms. Aitken, do you want to answer that question?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeJeniferAitkenJeniferAitkenJenifer-AitkenInterventionMs. Jenifer Aitken: (1500)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would go back to the question of whether it's a hypothetical question or a general question about what type of legislation the government can introduce. It is possible, and I think I heard the law clerk say it this morning, for legislation to be introduced that operates retroactively. That has to be made very clear. On the question of what the government's intentions are, I don't have any knowledge beyond what's in the press release, but I think that expresses it clearly.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1500)[English]Thank you. I'm not sure that clarified it. Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask if the people in the Department of Finance know whether the Justice officials were consulted on the illegality of delaying the implementation of Bill C-208. I'm talking about consultation, not advice, because we went through that this morning.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJeniferAitkenWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Can anybody answer that question? I imagine it's a confidence of government, but go ahead, whoever wants to take it.LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisJeniferAitkenJeniferAitkenJenifer-AitkenInterventionMs. Jenifer Aitken: (1505)[English]From the point of view of whether or not there were consultations with Justice, that is a matter of solicitor-client privilege. It's not something we're at liberty to talk about. We can talk about the press releases that are in front of everybody. We can answer questions on those. Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you.This is your last question, Larry. You're a little over time, but I took some of it.JeniferAitkenLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1505)[English]I guess I'm wondering, Mr. Chair, why it took almost 20 days for Finance to provide an updated release here. Was it because you so graciously called this committee meeting today? Was it, as was referred to earlier, a decision made by executive council or cabinet if not, as Mr. McGowan has already answered, that the minister was in charge and made that decision? Was it in fact the minister, or was it in fact executive council or cabinet?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Can anybody take a stab at that? It's not going to be me. I tried once and got in trouble.Voices: Oh, oh!An hon. member: I really liked your answer. The Chair: Yes, you did.Ms. Aitken, Mr. McGowan or Mr. Jovanovic.LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1505)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I believe the first part of the question was about why it took 20 days for the second news release to come out. I'm not sure I have an answer to that. All I can say, again, is that throughout the process, as we normally do, we continued to brief the minister. I cannot comment on specific aspects of the briefing, but we just continued to do so. At some point the decision was made and a news release was drafted. That's basically the time it took to do so.On the second question, with respect to who took the decision, again, Mr. Chair, I believe we answered that question before.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you.Before I turn to Ms. Bendayan, nobody has talked about the four points in the press release. I think I can say in all fairness that nobody on this committee, and I think no parliamentarian, wants to see a law used for tax avoidance. Are the points you outlined or that the minister outlined in her press release to target what they see as the dangers of, as I think it says in the press release, “surplus stripping”? Is that what it's mainly targeted at, and not the genuine aspects of intergenerational transfers, which bring fairness and equity under the tax system to selling intergenerationally versus outside the family?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFamilies and childrenPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1505)[English]The idea in the July 19 press release was to provide a set of four issues that would need to be considered in the course of developing a rule to help distinguish between genuine transfers of a business to the next generation and more contrived tax planning that does not in fact result in the transfer of business to the next generation. The idea would be to develop a set of rules in order to help distinguish between the two cases and ensure that the benefit provided, which is to say the non-application of the anti-avoidance rule in section 84.1 of the Income Tax Act, is available to intergenerational transfers of a business but only in the appropriate circumstances. These four bullet points are just the sorts of things that would typically need to be considered. Of course, for a view of a fully fleshed-out set of rules, Quebec has some. They deal with a lot of the same points, although maybe not conceptually ordered in the same way. One is the control of the company that carries on the business going to the next generation: whether or not the parent can retain ownership in the company after the transfer and what type of ownership, whether it would be preferred shares, common shares and things like that; whether there's a particular timeline involved for the transition of the involvement in the business between the parent and the child; or whether it's just a more general requirement that the parent can stay on in order to transfer their knowledge to the child. Finally, it's the level of involvement of the child after the transfer of the business: whether or not they have to maintain an economic interest through shared ownership for a particular period, or whether they need to be actively involved in the carrying on of the business itself. These are all issues that need to be considered and developed in the course of developing a rule that appropriately targets real intergenerational transfers.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFamilies and childrenPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Okay. Ms. Bendayan.TrevorMcGowanRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1510)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Actually, I will pick up on the point you just raised with Mr. McGowan. Certainly, as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Small Business, I've been working very closely with entrepreneurs over the last two years now.It is my impression, Mr. McGowan, and I hope yours as well, that our entrepreneurs here in Canada are extremely hard-working. They are working double time in order to keep their heads above water. They are intent on growing their business and also intent on following the rules. I appreciate, though, as a lawyer, that our tax legislation needs to be reviewed every once in a while to ensure that we have the necessary safeguard measures in place so that very experienced tax lawyers are not finding loopholes. There are very few bad actors, and I hope you will agree with me, among our small business community. I thought it would be important for me to clarify once again that not only would the small business community be consulted, as you were discussing earlier, Mr. McGowan, but also the government would not be applying any changes to tax legislation retroactively. You mentioned a number of times the date of November 1 as being the earliest date on which changes might be introduced. I would also like you to clarify that it's not actually between now and the end of October, as you mentioned. Really, November 1 is the earliest possible date, but as the press release states, it could also be up until the date of publication of the final draft legislation, which could in fact be later. Is that your understanding?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1510)[English]Yes. It is the later of November 1 and the final publication of draft legislative proposals. The earliest it could be is November 1, but of course it could be later than that.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyRachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1510)[English]Of course, as you mentioned, but it bears repeating, that would be subject to parliamentary approval. We would have to pass this legislation in the House of Commons, which is dependent, again, on parliamentary supremacy.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1510)[English]Yes. That's absolutely correct. It would need to be tabled as part of a bill and then pass through Parliament and receive royal assent.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyRachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1510)[English]Again, it may seem obvious but I would like to confirm: Our small business community won't be taken by surprise by anything the government may introduce, because they will be intimately involved in this consultation process that you mentioned a few moments ago.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1510)[English] That is certainly the intent behind yesterday's release. I think yesterday's release provides a bit of a framework for the development of issues that will provide a general idea until draft legislative proposals are released in the near term. We've already started hearing comments on the conditions in yesterday's release. That dialogue will continue through to when draft legislation is released. There will be another round of consultation on the draft legislative proposals. The measure itself will not apply before November 1. Ultimately, as said in the press release, there's an intention to release final draft legislative proposals afterwards. There are a number of steps in the consultative process where stakeholders would be engaged.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsPublic consultationTransfer of propertyRachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1510)[English]Thank you, Mr. McGowan. Not to further belabour the point that Mr. Fragiskatos very eloquently stated earlier, the issue, I think, has been clarified. We now understand that these amendments to tax legislation for intergenerational transfers came into force on June 30. However, I thought I heard you say earlier in your testimony that some tax changes often come into effect in a new tax year. Obviously, that is not the case—to be perfectly clear—with the changes we're discussing here in committee today, but could you elaborate a bit on how the CRA perhaps needs to work in the background in order to prepare for these modifications to tax legislation, and on why it is that in some cases, although not this one, the application date would be in a new fiscal year?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1515)[English]It's important to note, I think, as I believe I may have mentioned earlier, that in terms of these amendments, they will be reflected in an individual's tax return that gets filed for the 2021 taxation year. There's no administrative action that the CRA really needs to take until it starts looking at those tax returns well into 2022. There's a little more time for the CRA than having to administer or assess right away. It's important to keep that in mind.It's often the case that amendments might apply as of a particular date or to a taxation year. Amendments that apply as of a particular date are typically transactional in nature. They might apply where you sell shares, pay a dividend or make a particular type of investment where you can pinpoint with specificity when that transaction occurred and what day it occurred on. That's typically something that we would look to in developing measures and making recommendations on the effective date.For rules that affect the computation of income over a period or taxation year, where they can't be tied down to a specific transaction that occurs on a specific date but rather apply throughout the taxation year, then I would suggest that application dates that apply as of a particular taxation year make a lot more sense. It really depends on the measure and providing the application date that works best and gives the most certainty to affected taxpayers.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyRachelBendayanOutremontWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]We will have to end it there. We'll go to Mr. Berthold, followed by Mr. Gerretsen. If anybody else wants in, we'll go there, but I'll need a list. I see that Mr. Fast wants in as well. Mr. Berthold.TrevorMcGowanLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC): (1515)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would ask you to indulge me, since some of my questions may seem redundant. It's important, however, that they be put to the department officials in French. That means I will be asking some of the same questions that have already been asked. I want to begin with a reminder.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]The time is yours. Go ahead.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1515)[Translation]Thank you.We are not gathered today because of a news release that came out yesterday. We are actually here because of a June 30, 2021 news release that said, and I quote, “Bill C‑208 makes amendments to the Income Tax Act but does not include an application date.” You found that shocking as well, Mr. Chair. According to that same news release, “The government proposes to introduce legislation to clarify that these amendments would apply at the beginning of the next taxation year, starting on January 1, 2022.” It is on account of that news release that the committee was recalled and we are here today.Yesterday, the government realized that the committee was going to meet today and that, as a result, the government was probably going to look bad. It opted to put out another news release to retract what it said in the June 30 news release. Unfortunately, the government can't undo a news release. The one put out on June 30 still exists. You and I saw it, as did a whole lot of people in the small business sector and farming world. They were shocked and upset to learn that the government had no desire to implement a bill that had received royal assent and been passed by both Houses. Unfortunately, on June 30, the government apparently decided not to implement the bill because it had come from a Conservative member this time around. The government saw the bill as dangerous and wanted to avoid giving the opposition parties any credit. Too bad for the government that the bill was passed. That is a fact.The good news is we found out yesterday that the changes in the bill did apply in law. Nevertheless, we need to know what happened on June 30 and why we are meeting today, in the middle of the summer, during the construction holidays, to discuss the government's decision to hurt family farms and small businesses.My question is for Mr. McGowan, and it has been put to him a number of times.Earlier, you said that the minister made her decision. Can you tell us the name of the minister who made the decision you were referring to?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English] Mr. McGowan, I know we’ve been over this road before, but it is Mr. Berthold’s right to ask the same question again. I guess it’s your right to give the same answer.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1520)[English]I believe our answer to this question would be the same, Mr. Chair.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1520)[Translation]Mr. Jovanovic, will you confirm that Mr. McGowan said this earlier:[English]“The minister made her decision.”Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1520)[Translation]The June 30 news release clearly states—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1520)[Translation]I am not referring to the June 30 news release.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1520)[Translation]—it is a government decision. It was announced by the government. At that time, the Government of Canada proposed to introduce legislative changes in Parliament that would apply as of—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1520)[Translation]Mr. Chair, the question is clear.Earlier, Mr. McGowan said this:[English]“The minister made her decision.”[Translation]Mr. Jovanovic, will you confirm that your colleague made that statement?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1520)[Translation]Obviously, the Department of Finance could not have made a decision without the government's approval. Accordingly, it was a decision made by the government.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1520)[Translation]Why can't you tell us the name of the minister?Tell me the name of the act that prevents you from revealing the name of the minister who approved the news release, or at least tell me why you can't. Your colleague mentioned her name a while ago.I used to be a chief of staff, so I know major press releases like that don't go out without the prior approval of the most senior ministerial staff. What is stopping you from telling us the name? Why are you so reluctant to confirm that the Minister of Finance approved the news release that went out on June 30?That is why we are here today.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1520)[Translation]Mr. Chair, it seems the member is trying to put words in our mouths.What we want to explain is that a process is in place for any government decision. It is not for us to reveal which member of Parliament made the decision. It was a decision made by the government. We provide advice to the Minister of Finance, which is probably why Mr. McGowan gave the answer he did.The fact remains that it was a government decision. It is not within our authority. In any case, we probably don't have the information the member is looking for. We are not necessarily involved in political debates or discussions.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1520)[Translation]Mr. Jovanovic, I understand—MiodragJovanovicWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English] We are considerably over time.I will go to Mr. Gerretsen, but I remind the committee that the government also made a decision on July 19, and that's another press release.Go ahead, Mr. Gerretsen.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1520)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. McGowan, my questions would be for you, I guess. I want to start at a slightly higher level for a second. Basically, the job of the finance department is to implement the Income Tax Act as it happens to be at that particular time. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1520)[English]No. Actually, the administration of the Income Tax Act is the responsibility of the Canada Revenue Agency.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1520)[English]Fair enough. In terms of any changes that might happen to that act, though, no implementation of those changes would occur before any such time as they would come into effect. If a law is passed on changes, as is the case with this one, there would be no work done on that prior to that taking place. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1520)[English]I'm not certain I understand the question.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1520)[English]The Income Tax Act as it currently stands, in its current form, is implemented in that way. The rules are followed. Until such time as that is amended, you wouldn't start new laws that could potentially be coming down the pipe. Is that correct?The reason I ask.... It's a very straightforward question. I think the answer is “yes”. It's supposed to be a rhetorical question. The reason I ask is that Monsieur Ste-Marie and others have been asking why you didn't prepare in advance for the inevitable that you saw coming. Quite frankly, your job is to implement what is before you. Am I correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1525)[English]Okay. I thought the question related to measures that have received royal assent in the Income Tax Act but that do not have effect until a delayed date. There are certainly provisions in the Income Tax Act that do not get applied to certain taxpayers. For example—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1525)[English]Sure. So when you're asked a question by Monsieur Ste-Marie, for example, where he says, well, you knew this was going to happen—it was coming down; it had been passed by the House; it was on its way to the Senate—as far as you were concerned, on June 28 the bill had not received royal assent, and therefore it was not something that you needed to start dealing with. Is that correct, or am I wrong? Do you actually start to work on that stuff before it becomes law?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1525)[English]As department officials, as my colleague Miodrag noted, we continually work on providing the best and most frank advice we can to the government. That relates to the Income Tax Act and bills.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1525)[English]Mr. McGowan, I'm not talking about advice; I'm talking about what the law is. You're going to implement the law that is currently in place. On June 29, when a new law comes into place, if you're not ready to start implementing that because it's brand new to you, you might not have the tools and resources you need to do it immediately in terms of educating and informing those who are implementing it, making sure that the system treats people equally, and making sure that tax avoidance isn't occurring where it shouldn't be. Those are all things that you need to consider in implementing this legislation. If you weren't aware that it was going to become law on June 28, and presumably you weren't, because you didn't know how the Senate would vote on it, then you wouldn't be able to actually properly plan for it on that date—right?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1525)[English]Thank you. I think I understand the question now. I had been focusing on the date on which it received royal assent and amended the Income Tax Act. In terms of the administration of the rules in Bill C-208 and whether or not the Canada Revenue Agency was ready to go on that on June 28, as it is the administrator of the Income Tax Act, I think that would be a question better put to the CRA. Certainly it monitors developments, but really it's the CRA that is tasked with the administration and enforcement of the provisions of the act.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1525)[English] I know. Just for clarification, has there ever been a situation before with a private member's bill, or has there been one that you're aware of that has come into effect and then the intent was to immediately change the way the Income Tax Act was enforced, effective immediately? I'm trying to understand what the need was for putting this buffer of time between when the law became law, as passed by the Senate and after royal assent, and when the projected future date would have to be. Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1525)[English]I'm not aware of a private member's bill that has received royal assent and then shortly thereafter.... Private members' bills amending the tax act and receiving royal assent are not terribly common. This is the first one I can think of that has amended the Income Tax Act. My colleague Miodrag, I think, might have a better recollection of one with slightly different facts. A government bill was passed that provided that a private member's bill would not come into force, but that's a slightly different situation.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1530)[English]Thank you. That's all I need. TrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1530)[English]Nobody else wants to further answer that question.Now we know that Larry Maguire has done a rare thing, that's for sure.We'll go to Mr. Fast, split the time of Ms. Dzerowicz and Ms. Bendayan, and then go to Mr. Kelly.Mr. Fast. MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1530)[English]Mr. McGowan, I have a couple more questions for you. Let me say again that I have great respect for those of you in your position who serve the public. I've been in that seat, you know. I've been asked questions the way you have. It's not a pleasant feeling at times, especially when the great inquisitor is Mr. Easter, who used to do that to me.Voices: Oh, oh!Hon. Ed Fast: That said, you have said that it's the intention of the elected government that any intergenerational transfers that take place between June 30 and November 1 will not be subject to any further amendments that the elected government might bring forward on November 1 with respect to such transfers. Ms. Aitken has, however, confirmed that the government can in fact make such legislation—the November 1 legislation that is signalled in the press release of July 19—retroactive. I'm assuming that you yourself cannot bind the government to compel it to follow through on its intention not to apply any further amendments to such intergenerational transfers. Am I correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1530)[English]I would say that the government, an elected government, can't make changes; of course, any change would have to be included in a bill, and only Parliament could enact that to change the existing law. I don't know that it is something that the government could do, absent going to Parliament through the legislative process to make changes to the Income Tax Act.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1530)[English]Let me dig a little deeper. You mentioned that surplus stripping is a significant concern and that this needs to be addressed in the amendments that the government intends to bring forward. If between now and November 1 such tax avoidance activity does in fact take place, how will the government effectively address that avoidance? Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1530)[English]In its July 19 news release, the government said it would be releasing conditions for defining what is a genuine transfer and would entitle a transfer or making use of the exception for the anti-avoidance rule in section 84.1. It said that it would allow the benefit or that it would provide conditions that would need to be met in order to be considered to be a genuine intergenerational transfer, which would apply no earlier than November 1, 2021. Right now, the law as enacted by Bill C-208 stands, and those conditions would not be implemented until after October at the earliest.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1530)[English]So there's a gap now between June 29 and November 1, in which the government does not intend to make any retroactive changes, and in which there may be some gaps or loopholes that you've identified that may be difficult to address. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1530)[English] My only hesitation is that not before November 1, so up until October 31, the government wouldn't introduce other additional conditions in excess of what's currently there now. So that's right: The law that's in place now will be there until October 31, or until November 1 at the earliest.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1530)[English]All right. This is my last question. The most recent press release is the July 19 one, in which the elected government did an about-face on Bill C-208. Certainly we see it as an about-face. It still suggests that some intergenerational small business transfers aren't genuine. In fact, you use the term “genuine” in that press release. I'm looking at it here. It still suggests that small businesses are engaged in tax avoidance, in surplus stripping, in artificial tax planning and in not paying their fair share. Do you understand why many small businesses and the families who run them still feel that you and your finance department colleagues, and the government, and the Prime Minister still believe they're tax cheats? It's baked into your press release. Small businesses reading that would take from it that this government really doesn't trust small businesses and still believes they're tax cheats. Do you understand why small businesses are concerned?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1535)[English]Thank you for mentioning that. It brings me to something I wanted to mention earlier. I forget the question, but there was a suggestion that somehow tax planning using the law of the day could be considered bad behaviour or something like that. Of course, if there are gaps in the law, that is a problem with the law. It's not a problem with people who arrange their affairs in such a way as to reduce their tax liability.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[English]All right.We will go to Ms. Dzerowicz and then to Ms. Bendayan on a split—if you want to go with the split.TrevorMcGowanJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1535)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. McGowan, for your patience in answering all of these questions. Mr. Fast must have been reading my mind, because he asked a couple of my questions. I was going to ask a similar question in terms of whether, between June 29 and November 1, sales of family farms or other types of small businesses that are intergenerational are taking place. You indicated that there are plans for amendments, but is there anything you think the federal government could or should do to minimize any tax avoidance in the meantime?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1535)[English]As I've said before, both today and certainly at the Senate agriculture and forestry committee in an earlier appearance on Bill C-208, right now the tax administrators at the Canada Revenue Agency are tasked with applying the law as it stands and not anything else. The CRA, I'm sure I can say with the utmost confidence, will apply the law as it currently exists, as is their mandate. I would never want to suggest that anybody could do anything other than apply the law as it currently stands.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1535)[English]Yes. I have a tiny follow-up, and then I'll pass this along to my colleague. If we have been concerned, which is something you raised at our finance committee meetings while we were studying this bill, about the possibility of people taking advantage of what you see as potential tax loopholes in the way that the current law is written, why wouldn't we try to take some steps to minimize that while ensuring in the meantime...not making amendments but maybe taking some measures or considerations?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1535)[English]As I said, the Canada Revenue Agency, or maybe the government, would apply the law as it exists. If planning develops that goes beyond what the legislation currently permits, including if it somehow crosses the level to becoming abusive tax avoidance, of course that's something the CRA would look at. Again, just to reiterate, the tax authorities are bound to apply the law as it exists.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1535)[English] Thank you so much.TrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[English]Ms. Bendayan.JulieDzerowiczDavenportRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1535)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you to my colleague for giving me the time.I am outraged. I know that people who know me know that I hide my outrage quite well, but Mr. Fast feigned to speak on behalf of small business owners and entrepreneurs here in Canada, indicating or claiming that our government is accusing them of X, Y or Z. In fact, I believe entrepreneurs know and understand that our government has always believed in them, continues to believe in them, and has been supporting them, really, from day one of this pandemic but also well before and well into the future. I believe that Mr. Dan Kelly from CFIB does represent small businesses. He tweeted his thanks earlier today to Minister Freeland. I have the tweet in front of me, in which he says that both the minister and her officials are to be thanked for the “clear message that this new law will be respected” by the Department of Finance and CRA. He says he shared with the Deputy Prime Minister that “CFIB will work closely with [the government] to protect the integrity of the tax system by closing any gaps that may be identified”. Even Mr. Kelly is looking forward to working with our government in order to implement safeguard measures and work with us to close any loopholes. Mr. McGowan, I think you indicated earlier that you are also looking forward to working with such stakeholders as Mr. Kelly at CFIB and others. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1540)[English]Yes, of course, very much so. We put out a release and we'll put out draft legislative proposals for consultation. We expect really good stakeholder engagement.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyRachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1540)[English]Thank you very much.Thank you, Mr. Chair.TrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1540)[English]Thank you.I understand that we are now going to Mr. Maguire rather than Mr. Kelly.Mr. Maguire.RachelBendayanOutremontLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1540)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.In regard to Ms. Bendayan's comment, I just have to add that the reason Mr. Kelly was able to put out those kind comments was that the government was forced to appear before our committee today. I want to thank you, Mr. Chair, for calling this meeting, because without it yesterday's press release just wouldn't have happened. An hon. member: [Inaudible—Editor]Mr. Larry Maguire: There's no use hiding the fact that the government recused its decision from June 30 in yesterday's press release. Mr. Kelly is quite right to say that they're pleased, but as Mr. Ste-Marie said, for 527 days the government fought this bill, and fought it hard, not only on its own— If it was such a good bill, why didn't the government members vote for it in the House? Nineteen of your colleagues, Mr. Chair, you included, got the fact that small businesses in your constituencies, in every constituency in Canada, are the predominant private sector employers in those constituencies. I just want to reiterate that without the attention brought to this bill.... The government fought this all the way until yesterday, when it decided, well, this isn't very popular among small business people in Canada, so we'd better change our minds on this.I have just a couple of quick questions, Mr. Chair. I know we still have a bit of time.Mr. McGowan, before yesterday's press release was issued that stated the obvious, that the law is the law, were you consulted on the language in the updated release?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1540)[English]Were Department of Finance officials involved in the production of the July 19 release? Yes. We were involved in that.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxInformation disseminationPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1540)[English]It goes without saying, then, that if we hadn't put up this fuss, Finance wouldn't have sent out the updated press release. What specific date were you told that a new policy decision was going to be taken?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1540)[English]I don't know about timelines.Miodrag, do you know?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1540)[English]It's very difficult to say. It's an ongoing and iterative process that the Department of Finance has with the minister's office and the minister in terms of briefings and reacting to events, so....Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1540)[English]Obviously it wasn't before June 30. Would that be obvious—yes or no?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1540)[English]Do you mean with respect to the decision to issue the July 19 news release?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1540)[English]On what specific date were you told that a new policy decision was going to be taken?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1540)[English]I can't answer. I actually—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1540)[English]You don't know.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1540)[English]I don't know. As I said, it's an ongoing process.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1540)[English] Mr. McGowan just said you were informed.Anyway, having said that, obviously you were informed by the government that something was going to take place and that this reversal was going to take place. Did cabinet have to approve this new policy direction, or could it solely be made by the Minister of Finance?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1540)[English]I would say that these decisions are made by the government and implicitly the cabinet—the cabinet with respect to tax-related matters. It can be the Prime Minister with the Minister of Finance along with other ministers, depending on, potentially, the nature of the issue. It's a decision that is taken in concert by the federal government.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1545)[English]You know, I understand that the government doesn't like Bill C-208, but not a single amendment was put forward by the government through this whole process, and now we still don't have amendments. The government is talking about them here, but if there are amendments, why aren't we seeing them now, so that we can discuss them before a committee like today's? Have you been asked to put forward amendments? You've had 20 years.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMiodragJovanovicTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1545)[English]The government announced its intention to release...or said that amendments to the Income Tax Act relating to intergenerational transfers would be forthcoming. In its July 19 press release, the government announced an intention to release draft legislative proposals on the subject.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1545)[English]What specific legal authority did Finance use to release and announce this tax policy change without providing amendments?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1545)[English]I'm sorry. I'm not certain that I....Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1545)[English]I'm just asking what specific legal authority Finance used to issue the release and announce this tax policy change in a press release.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1545)[English]Jenifer, I see that you've gone off mute.LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]You're on. Go ahead.TrevorMcGowanJeniferAitkenJeniferAitkenJenifer-AitkenInterventionMs. Jenifer Aitken: (1545)[English]I'll try to answer that in terms of legal authority. It's a news release from the government, as my colleagues have said. It was a government decision to issue a news release. However, a change to the law requires Parliament's approval, and that's why in fact both news releases speak of an intention to introduce legislation, which would go to Parliament and go through the whole process in the House and the Senate. There would be a change in law only once there was royal assent. The legal authority to change the law comes from Parliament, and that is what's referred to in the news release.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1545)[English]Clearly, there are no amendments forward to clarify for small businesses in Canada what the government's intentions are.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJeniferAitkenJeniferAitkenJeniferAitkenJenifer-AitkenInterventionMs. Jenifer Aitken: (1545)[English]The government has said in its news release what its intentions are. Those intentions are to introduce proposals, proposed legislative amendments, which can't become law until Parliament decides.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1545)[English]There's nothing stopping them from discussing those amendments today, because we've had decades of discussion on this particular topic. It leads those in small business today to really—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJeniferAitkenWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]This is your last question, Larry.LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1545)[English]I'll go back to my colleague Mr. Fast's comments. He called it the tax cheat issues. I'll be clear that the Prime Minister's very words were something to the effect that small businesses are just formed to allow for tax avoidance. I think that's a pretty clear message from the top leadership of the country as to what they think of small businesses. To come out in the release and say, oh, we're one of the most friendly governments ever to be in place for small businesses.... I've had chartered accountant firms tell me that this bill is probably the most significant change to help small businesses in the last 20 years. There's a great dichotomy of opinion here. I would ask why we still can't see some of the amendments or why we're not here today discussing some of the amendments. They've obviously been talked about, because the department put forward its case before the House and before the Senate, and both houses, both chambers of the parliamentary process, passed this bill.I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair. I don't know if there's an answer from the government or from the finance department as to why we're not seeing amendments today. I will ask this simple question: Has the government instructed the finance department to come up with any amendments yet?That was my final question, Mr. Chair.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English] I guess that's a question for you folks. Has the government instructed the finance department to come up with amendments? I would refer you to the press release on that matter.Go ahead, Mr. McGowan, Ms. Aitken or whoever.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1545)[English]The press release states that amendments are forthcoming. That is something we're working on, consistent with the announcement of the Government of Canada that the amendments are forthcoming.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]If I may, they will be based on the consultations. Is that correct, Trevor?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1550)[English]We're certainly working on putting together amendments. Again, these are the ones announced on July 29. Of course, in doing so, I don't want to suggest that we've launched a formal consultation process that we'd need to end before the draft legislative proposals are released, but certainly we've already heard from stakeholders with suggestions on ways in which the bulleted issues could be addressed.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]I think you said July 29. You meant July 19, if I'm correct. This press release was July 19.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1550)[English]I apologize. That was another slip of the tongue.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]That's fine, Trevor. Thank you.Mr. Maguire, you said that the government doesn't like Bill C-208. The minister made it clear that the Government of Canada is committed to facilitating genuine intergenerational share transfers, and it has raised some concerns with Bill C-208. Let's be absolutely clear on what's happening here.We'll go now to Ms. Bendayan, and then Mr. Kelly will close it off.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1550)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I must say that I'm very pleased to see Mr. Maguire here. He certainly deserves the credit for bringing forward Bill C-208. As other members have also said, though, Monsieur Emmanuel Dubourg from the Liberal caucus also brought forward something very similar, as have the Bloc and the NDP over the course of the last many years. Mr. Maguire, you also mentioned that this issue has been discussed and debated for the last 20 years. For 10 of them, there was a Conservative majority, during which time the Conservative government of the day could have brought forward these measures.[Translation]I have a few questions for Mr. McGowan.Since this morning, people have been bringing up Quebec and the integrity measures in place there. I was wondering whether you were inspired by anything in particular. Also, could any of Quebec's rules be implemented countrywide?Talk about that, if you would, Mr. McGowan.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1550)[English]Certainly, we've gone through the Quebec intergenerational business transfer rules. They provided a great source of inspiration for the work we're currently doing on them. Some of that is probably reflected in the bullets in the July 19 press release. It is certainly a made-in-Canada set of rules to deal with issues that are the same or similar to what we're talking about right now. It's absolutely been an important source of inspiration. I mean, we've heard about technical questions relating to the Quebec rules and the impact of Bill C-208, but I'm not an expert on Quebec's provincial tax, so I can't really comment on that sort of thing.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyRachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. McGowan.As a proud Quebecker, I am always pleased when Quebec leads the way for the rest of the country. You mentioned the integrity measures, of course, but Quebec's child care system is another example.If I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to give the rest of my time to Ms. Dzerowicz.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Ms. Dzerowicz.RachelBendayanOutremontJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1550)[English] Thank you.I want to continue with my colleague's comment about how we very much care about the intergenerational issue. I want to put two things on the record and then ask my question. First, in budget 2019, we said the following:The Government understands the importance Canadian farmers, fishers and other business owners place on being able to pass their businesses on to their children. The Government will continue its outreach to farmers, fishers and other business owners throughout 2019 to develop new proposals to better accommodate intergenerational transfers of businesses while protecting the integrity and fairness of the tax system.As well, the December 13, 2019, mandate letter for the Minister of Finance lists it as a top priority to work with the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food “on tax measures to facilitate the intergenerational transfer of farms”. It is a huge issue for us; it has been an issue for us, and it continues to be an issue for us.My question is with regard to something that I think you mentioned, Mr. McGowan. You said that a number of amendments are being looked at. I very much took to heart the presentations we had this morning, where we directly had representatives from the Canadian Federation of Agriculture and from the Fédération de la relève agricole du Québec.(1555)As we're making some of those amendments, they very much asked for direct involvement in consultation with the grassroots, not just within the farming sector. I think our chair sort of expanded on that, saying that there are other stakeholder key groups that would want to provide input. The very clear message we heard this morning was that it's not a "one size fits all” in terms of addressing the tax loophole solutions. I would like to inquire as to whether or not there will be some direct connections with these key stakeholders on the amendments that are being proposed.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTrevorMcGowanTrevorMcGowanTrevor-McGowanInterventionMr. Trevor McGowan: (1555)[English]I don't know that we can comment on the government's communications strategy beyond what was put out in the July 19 news release. I don't know that we have any details to share on that right now. I don't know, Mio, if you have anything to add.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportMiodragJovanovicMiodragJovanovicMiodrag-JovanovicInterventionMr. Miodrag Jovanovic: (1555)[English]I would just add that any stakeholder can decide to approach the Department of Finance. We would be very happy to sit with them and hear what they have to tell us. We don't need a formal consultation process to do that. We do that all the time. We never say no to a meeting with stakeholders. A more informed discussion will obviously be coming once the draft legislative proposals are out for consultation, for sure, but that doesn't prevent stakeholders from getting in touch with the department.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyTrevorMcGowanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Thank you, all.The last section goes to Mr. Kelly.MiodragJovanovicPatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1555)[English]Thank you. I don't have a question. I know that we're down to just the last few minutes. I move that the committee invite the Minister of Finance to appear within two weeks of passing this motion.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English] It is an allowable motion and it is on the floor. I don't see any discussion.(Motion agreed to)The Chair: All right. The request will go to the minister. With that, on behalf of the committee, I want to thank the officials from Finance and from the law branch for appearing before the committee today. As we know, it is sometimes difficult to sort out where you guys are at from the political side of the coin. We appreciate your efforts in terms of appearing before the committee today. As well, as I think was said by members earlier from probably all parties, we very much appreciate your efforts during the last year as we went through this pandemic. For your advice to government, your working day and night to assist Canadians in getting us through the pandemic, and your trying to leave us in a position where the economy can go forward, I sincerely thank you on behalf of the committee. Thank you for your efforts there and for your appearance today.With that, the meeting is adjourned.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.)): (1000)[English] We will call the meeting to order. Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 59 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting to study the coming into force of Bill C-208, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation).Given the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from health authorities to remain healthy and safe, all of us attending the meeting—it's the first time all of us have been in a committee room for 16 months—are to maintain the two-metre physical distancing. We must wear a mask when circulating in the room. It's highly recommended that a mask be worn at all times—though I don't think members can be expected to—and we must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. I will try to enforce those measures, but I don't think enforcement will be necessary. I know there's only one staff per party allowed in the room. I thank members for their co-operation.In our first hour of this session, by video we have with us Mr. Philippe Dufresne, the law clerk and parliamentary counsel, who has been before the committee a number of times, and Michel Bédard, deputy law clerk and parliamentary counsel, from the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel. Welcome to both of you. I imagine you have an opening statement. There was considerable controversy. A number of us said that.... I think MPs believe Parliament is supreme. There was a little difference of opinion, I think, between us and the Department of Finance and maybe others. We'll turn to you for an opening statement. Then we'll go to questions.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne (Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons): (1005)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair, members of the committee, for your invitation to appear today following the Department of Finance Canada's June 30 news release respecting Private Member's Bill C‑208, and the clarification issued by the government yesterday which replaced that June 30 news release.As the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel for the House of Commons, I am pleased to be here today to address any questions that the committee may have on this matter. My office provides comprehensive legal and legislative services to the Speaker, the Board of Internal Economy, the House and its committees, members of Parliament and the House Administration.As counsel to the House, its committees and members, we serve the interests of the legislative branch of government, and provide similar types of legal and legislative services to the House as the Department of Justice provides to the government.I am accompanied by Michel Bédard, Deputy Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, Legal Services, and I hope that our answers will assist the committee.[English]Before turning to Bill C-208, I want to take a few moments to highlight the rules applicable to the coming into force of legislation. These same rules apply equally to legislation implementing tax measures.Enacting new laws and amending existing ones is a process that culminates in a legislative text receiving royal assent. However, a distinction must be made between the date on which a legislative measure is enacted by Parliament and the date on which it comes into force. A bill becomes law after it has been passed by both Houses in the same form and has received royal assent, but its provisions will produce their effect and become enforceable only when they are brought into force. The Interpretation Act, which applies to all federal legislation, contains the provisions governing the coming into force of statutes, including the timing of that coming into force. Generally, a statute will come into force either on the day of assent or on another date as provided by the legislation itself. The other date could be a specific day set out in the act, or the act could leave it to the government to determine the date of the coming into force by an order in council. If no coming-into-force provision is included in an act, the default rule found in subsection 5(2) of the Interpretation Act applies, and the entire act comes into force on the day on which it receives royal assent. [Translation]I will now say a few specific words about the implementation of tax measures.Governments will, from time to time, implement proposed legislative changes respecting taxation, for example for new capital gain inclusion rates or new GST rates, before their formal legislative enactment. The actions of taxpayers will then be influenced by the proposed measures—that are oftentimes already implemented administratively by the Canada Revenue Agency—in anticipation to the subsequent legislative enactment that would have retroactive effect to the date the proposed legislative changes were announced.House of Commons Procedure and Practice summarizes this practice as follows:It is the long‑standing practice of Canadian governments to put tax measures into effect as soon as the notices of the ways and means motions on which they are based are tabled in the House of Commons, with the result that taxes are collected as of the date of this notice, even though it may be months, if not years, before the implementing legislation is actually passed by Parliament.Implementation of the tax measures often starts when their announcement is made, including by the tabling of a ways and means motion, but is always contingent on the tax measures being ultimately enacted by Parliament.[English] Bill C-208, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation), received royal assent on June 29, 2021. The bill does not contain a coming-into-force or a commencement provision, so, in accordance with subsection 5(2) of the Interpretation Act, the date of coming into force is the date of royal assent. This means that the new provisions apply as of that date, in this case, June 29, 2021. There is nothing unusual about this. On June 30 the government proposed legislation to clarify that the Bill C-208 amendments to the Income Tax Act would apply at the beginning of the next taxation year, starting on January 1, 2022.Yesterday, the government issued a new statement replacing the June 30 news release and affirming that as Bill C-208 has been passed by Parliament and has received royal assent, it has become a part of the Income Tax Act and that the changes contained in Bill C-208 now apply in law. The government also clarified that it intends to bring forward amendments to the Income Tax Act that honour the spirit of Bill C-208 while safeguarding against any unintended tax-avoidance loopholes that may have been created by the bill.(1010)Because the bill is now law, making any changes to it would require new legislation. Such new legislation could provide for any amendments to the Income Tax Act to apply retroactively, including applying to events that take place before the day on which the new legislation comes into force. I would now be pleased to answer any questions you may have.Thank you.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxHouse of CommonsPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1010)[English]Thank you, Mr. Dufresne.For the first round, we'll start with Mr. Kelly followed by Mr. Fragiskatos, Mr. Ste-Marie and Ms. Mathyssen.Mr. Kelly.PhilippeDufresnePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC): (1010)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Dufresne, for appearing today and for the clarity you've brought to this issue. Let's just get right to it.Bill C-208 became law on June 29. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1010)[English]Yes.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1010)[English]All right. Can you imagine any possible explanation for why this government would say otherwise in its June 30 press announcement?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1010)[English]I can't speculate as to intentions. I've mentioned the two communiqués. There was the one on June 30, which has now been replaced by the communiqué that was issued yesterday.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1010)[English]On the eve of a really embarrassing meeting that the department would have to go through, they backpedalled the June 30 announcement. Do you know of any precedent of a government refusing to implement a law upon its receiving royal assent, such as has been the case with this bill?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1010)[English]This was an unusual situation in the sense of having a statement following coming into force that involved a different coming-into-force date. There have been situations in which the government has announced legislative tax measures and has implemented them pending legislative parliamentary approval, but this current situation [Technical difficulty—Editor] was not one we have seen before.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1010)[English]No government has ever done this—just put out an announcement to say it is not going to implement a law passed by Parliament.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxGovernment accountabilityPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1010)[English]As I say, this communiqué was issued. It announced the government's intention to introduce new legislation to change the coming-into-force date. That's not something we have seen before.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxGovernment accountabilityPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1010)[English]Right.Your office has been very busy over this last year and a half or so. We have seen this government defy Parliament and defy orders of committee. You've been present at this committee with regard to this issue. Are you concerned by the pattern of government, of any government, ignoring the will of Parliament?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxGovernment accountabilityPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1010)[English]What I've stated to this committee is that Parliament is supreme. Parliament has privileges and has fundamental authority. I've taken that position. That's an authority that Parliament has to exercise responsibly, and that continues to be my position.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxGovernment accountabilityPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1010)[English]Again, I thank you for your vigorous defence of Parliament. In a parliamentary democracy, Parliament has to have the last word on public policy. We have a government that has ignored Parliament by refusing to implement this bill when it received royal assent and that has been on the heels of actually suing the House of Commons and naming the Speaker of the House in seeking court approval to defy Parliament. This is all within the last few weeks. Can you comment on a pattern emerging with this government? This is also on the heels of the defiance of orders at this committee.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1010)[English] I provide views and advice to committees on issues as they arise [Technical difficulty—Editor] litigation. The Speaker has informed members that he has instructed my office to respond to that litigation, and we are doing so. As indicated, I've appeared before this committee to advise it on the powers of the House and the supremacy of Parliament and parliamentary privilege as a constitutional matter, and I will continue to do so.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1015)[English]Responsible government was achieved in Canada before Confederation. Really, since 1858 has any Canadian government besides this one openly and blatantly refused to implement laws passed by Parliament?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1015)[English]I will comment on the authorities of the House. Those authorities are fundamental and the House has exercised them, and I will support the exercise of those authorities going forward.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1015)[English]Yes, and we thank you for that and for your defence of Parliament.Mr. Chair, do I have any more time?PhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1015)[English]You have time for one more question.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1015)[English]Despite the backpedal that we saw yesterday, I would suggest there are still questions that remain and still an intention by this government to not implement the bill as passed by Parliament. What further steps do you think the government needs to take to assure Canadians that it will actually follow through and implement this bill and respect the will of Parliament as expressed through its democratically elected members and senators?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1015)[English]The government issued a statement yesterday. The committee, as I understand, will be hearing from further witnesses and can determine if it's satisfied with the clarification it has received. The government has issued a statement indicating that it recognizes that the bill is in force and that it proposes to introduce amendments down the road.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1015)[English]Thank you, both.We'll have Mr. Fragiskatos for six minutes, followed by Mr. Ste-Marie.PhilippeDufresnePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos (London North Centre, Lib.): (1015)[English]Thank you, Chair.It's good to be here in Ottawa after a lot of time. It's nice to see colleagues in person once again, and I hope everybody has kept healthy and safe and that everyone's loved ones are okay too. Many thanks to you, Chair, along the way. I know this is the final set of meetings the finance committee will have with you at the helm, and it's been absolutely great and a wonderful experience working with you, as I've told you over the years. To the staff behind the scenes, too, here at Parliament, and our own staff, thank you very much. This committee has been very active over the past year and a half, without any stops, and that continues.Mr. Dufresne, you've answered this, I think, but I want to be crystal clear here. Is the press release that we saw yesterday consistent with the view that Parliament is indeed supreme and that Bill C-208 is in force? The press release recognizes that, I think, but could you elaborate?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1015)[English]The July 19 press release does clarify the government's view, certainly, as consistent with the fact that the bill is in force. We see this recognition: The bill is in force as of royal assent in this case. There was nothing unusual with there not being a specified coming-into-force date in the bill. That's now been clarified—that the law applies—and the government is indicating its intention to introduce future legislation to address certain matters. That is something we've see before in past practices, namely, the announcement of future measures and confirmation that they're conditional on parliamentary approval.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1015)[English]Thank you very much.My friend and colleague Mr. Kelly did not expand on it—I do not think he had time—but put a forward a claim that yesterday's press release, in his view, indicates that the government is not looking at or serious about moving forward with C-208. I'm not sure where that observation comes from. I looked at the press release closely, and it says—and you put this is your testimony, sir—that unintended consequences that could come about with C-208 will be addressed. That is not inconsistent with the recognition that this is law and that Parliament is supreme. Would you say that's accurate?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1020)[English] That's the government expressing its concerns. I was paraphrasing the government's concerns with the bill as it stands in law, and its intention to introduce future amendments on that point. That is consistent with the practice we have seen. It clarifies perhaps the ambiguity in the June 30 statement, which mentioned the lack of a coming-into-force date and indicated that amendments would deal with a coming-into-force date. That's now been clarified and replaced with the statement from yesterday.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1020)[English]I hear you. In other words, the government's saying that it will move forward to ensure that possible unintended consequences of the bill will be addressed does not circumvent the will of Parliament and does not ignore the will of Parliament on the matter. Governments can do that and still be in line with Parliament's view.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1020)[English]Governments can express their intention to introduce subsequent legislation, and that is subject to parliamentary approval.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1020)[English]Okay. I have only about a minute and a half left. I wonder if you could just one more time go through the difference between...or not “difference”, per se. You pointed to a distinction between royal assent and the coming into force of a particular bill and what the Interpretation Act says. Please elaborate, but based on the testimony you gave, it sounds like the date of royal assent is usually the default position. Is that an accurate understanding?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1020)[English]That is accurate. The provision reads, “If no date of commencement is provided for in an Act, the date of commencement of that Act is the date of assent to the Act.” That is the default provision in the sense that if there's no other specified coming into force, then it comes into force on the date of royal assent. There is the possibility to provide a specific date in the act itself, which wasn't done here. There's also the possibility to give the government the ability to set the date by order in council, usually in a situation where the government needs to be satisfied that it has put in place necessary mechanisms to do so.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1020)[English]As a final point, Mr. Chair, I voted for Bill C-208. I think it's a necessary measure. A number of Liberals voted for Bill C-208 as well. Mr. Dufresne, you are Parliament's lawyer, if I can put it that way. Once again, are you satisfied that yesterday's press release makes it clear that Bill C-208 is recognized by the government as a bill that will be put in place?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1020)[English]I'm satisfied that in the release yesterday, the government has recognized that Bill C-208 is in force and has expressed its intention to introduce future amendments.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterFragiskatosLondon North CentrePeterFragiskatosLondon North Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88827PeterFragiskatosPeter-FragiskatosLondon North CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FragiskatosPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Fragiskatos: (1020)[English]Thank you very much.PhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1020)[English]Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.Next up is Mr. Ste-Marie, followed by Ms. Mathyssen.Gabriel, I pretty near need binoculars to see you down there, but I see you. Go ahead. The floor is yours.PeterFragiskatosLondon North CentreGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): (1020)[Translation]Good morning, Mr. Chair. My regards to Mr. Bédard and Mr. Dufresne. My regards also go to my colleagues and all the members of the team that makes it possible for the committee to run. It's really nice to see them in person, although it's during the first week of the construction holidays.That said, a committee's gotta do what a committee's gotta do.Let me start with a brief comment. Yesterday, I was delighted to see the news release from the Department of Finance, which reversed its position and its decision. I think the announcement of the emergency meeting of this committee may have prompted the department to say that the law is the law, as was reported in The Globe and Mail this morning. So I take my hat off to all the members of the committee, and in particular to the chair. I think we have succeeded in changing things here.Mr. Dufresne, we are talking about the rights, powers and authority of the House. In the first news release, how were those not respected? How do you think that was corrected in the second news release?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1020)[Translation]The problem with the first news release was that it pointed out that Bill C‑208 did not provide for an implementation date. It stated so in the beginning, in the first paragraph. It ended by stating that the government intended to include new legislation to clarify that those amendments would apply at the beginning of the next fiscal year.That's what was more surprising or potentially confusing, because it gave the impression that the absence of a date in the legislation indicated a failure or an area that needed clarification, when this was not the case. The Interpretation Act makes it very clear that a bill comes into force when it receives royal assent. This could have suggested that the entire bill would not come into force until later, retroactively. The updated news release replaces the first one and indicates that the legislation is in force and that the legislative amendments being considered by the government will address specific issues, not the coming into force date.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1025)[Translation]Thank you. That is very clear.At the beginning of your opening remarks, you reminded us that you advise Parliament, the House, its committees and elected officials, and you said that this is more or less what the Department of Justice does for the government.Let me add an editorial comment. I would be very surprised if the Department of Justice officials thought that not including a date in the bill meant that the government could put it into effect whenever it wanted.I think the government, the Prime Minister and his team, thought that this bill was not quite working for them and that they would try something. I am sure that the Department of Justice would never have misled the government in that way, which is why the emergency meeting of the committee today was so important and why I think an updated news release was issued.Larry Maguire, who is here with us, can correct me if I am wrong. In a CBC article yesterday, we are reminded that the first reading of Bill C‑208 took place on February 19, 2020. It's now 2021. Yesterday, the journalist reminded us that 527 days passed between the first reading of the bill and its implementation following royal assent.Mr. Dufresne, can you remind the members of the committee and those listening of the normal stages that a bill must go through? Also, at each of these stages and during those 527 days, when could the government officials have suggested amendments or proposals to make the bill consistent with what they wanted to do, as they said they wanted to do through a future bill?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1025)[Translation]To be passed, the bill must go through three readings in the House. The first reading, which is the general presentation of the bill, takes place without debate. At second reading, the members debate the principle of the bill. Then it is sent to committee, where there is debate and opportunity for amendment. The bill then returns to the House for a vote at report stage and then goes to third reading, when members debate and vote on it. It then goes to the Senate, where it must go through three readings as well, and it finally receives royal assent.During the stages in the House, the government and other members of Parliament have the opportunity to propose amendments.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1025)[Translation]Thank you, that is very clear.So there are several stages in the House and in the Senate where the government officials could have said that the bill was not perfect and that they would have preferred to make amendments to it. That was the reason the government gave us in the first news release for choosing not to implement it now.But there was a 527‑day delay, and at each stage, the government could have made amendments. We have a minority government. We can work together, and we saw that was really the case at the Standing Committee on Finance. That is the beauty of a minority government where all members of Parliament work together. But as far as I know, the government officials did not submit any amendments. I would say that they “were asleep at the wheel” because they had 527 days to bring forward the amendments they wanted.I would also point out that similar legislation exists in Quebec and that safeguards have been put in place with respect to our concerns about the whole issue of tax evasion. The Quebec Minister of Finance actually reminded me that it was working well. The federal government officials have therefore had all the time they need to draw inspiration from it, to propose that such guidelines be put in place, to ask what others think of them, to discuss them and to invite experts and other witnesses to the committee.As far as I know, the Liberals did not call any witnesses or submit any amendments to the committee. So they were really “asleep at the wheel” and missed an opportunity. I'm very pleased that there was an about‑face in the news release yesterday.That's the end of my questions to Mr. Dufresne and Mr. Bédard. Their answers shed light on the situation. My thanks to them for being here.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1030)[English] Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.We'll go to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes, and that will be followed by Mr. Berthold and Mr. Maguire, who will split their time.Go ahead, Ms. Mathyssen.GabrielSte-MarieJolietteLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP): (1030)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the members of the committee for allowing me to sub in. I will try to live up to the reputation of Mr. Julian. I appreciate hearing from you, Mr. Dufresne. You are very precise in your wording, as we've seen often. Given your precision when you give that advice to parliamentarians, one would hope that the government would also respond with that same precision, but unfortunately all of this confusion of course has come forward because they seem to have lacked the precision between the first press release and the clarification of the second. I wanted to build off what my colleague, Mr. Ste-Marie, was talking about in terms of those different stages of a bill and specifically how they go through. As he mentioned, there were no amendments proposed at the committee stage of the bill. Everything was passed. It was passed through the Senate as well, with no changes. If the government were to bring forward this legislation, or the amendments that it wishes to see in a different piece of legislation, and if the government stands as it is and Parliament stands as it is, it will go through those same processes. Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1030)[English]Yes.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1030)[English]One would assume that, because of the standing of the House of Commons currently, in a minority Parliament, all things remaining the same, we would have the same result and it would be the will of Parliament to pass the same legislation. One would assume that.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1030)[English]That's more for you to assess than for me.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1030)[English]Okay. I know we're sort of getting into the nitty-gritty, but is it common, when the government says it plans to introduce amendments that would honour the spirit of Bill C-208? Is there a precedent explaining that? Is that language that's commonly used by government? Is there something more precise to that, legally?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1030)[English]The formulation of the spirit versus the letter is one that we hear from time to time. It seems, again, that the government would be better placed than me to explain what it meant in the communiqué, but as I read it, it's a statement recognizing that the bill is now in force and the government intends to bring some amendments to deal with certain aspects of it while keeping within the overall spirit. It's addressing what the government sees as our concerns in terms of the bill as it stands.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1030)[English]Again, that's the will of the government versus the will of Parliament; they're almost in conflict in these attempts to change legislation, which the government has the absolute right to do within those amendments and by introducing different parts of legislation. Ultimately, though, that still could potentially be in conflict with the overall will of Parliament, which you have said is supreme.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1030)[English]In the sense of indicating the government's intention to propose legislation, I would not necessarily see that as a conflict with the will of Parliament, in the sense that Parliament has not expressed its will on that proposed legislation. I think what is being stated is that there's an intention to bring forward a bill, and then that bill would be subject to debate and approval by Parliament.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1030)[English]Mr. Ste-Marie talked about the length of time this piece of legislation took to come through. I know all pieces of legislation are different, and schedules are different. Was that sort of an average, that 500-some days? Was that average for a private member's bill to pass through?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1035)[English]I don't have statistics of that nature. Bills vary in their scope and in their complexity. The parliamentary calendar.... Of course, we've been in the pandemic situation with a virtual Parliament, so it's been unusual times all around.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1035)[English]I ask because obviously rumours abound about an upcoming election, and yet within that second press release, that clarification, there was indication that legislation would come forward and be implemented by November 1. If there was an election during this fall session, term, or time period, would it be possible for our government to pass that kind of legislation?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1035)[English] If there is an election, there is a dissolution of the House, so there's no ability for the House to consider legislation during that time.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1035)[English]If they wanted to come back super fast, if there were changes, potentially, to the makeup of the House of Commons, they could now change that will of Parliament by bringing forward amendments as they wished.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1035)[English]The House will consider legislation according to the composition of its members at any given time. Certainly if the composition of the House changes, then that can have impacts.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1035)[English] Okay. Thank you very much.PhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1035)[English]We'll have to end it there. We will go to Mr. Berthold for about two and a half minutes, and then Mr. Maguire and then Ms. O'Connell.Go ahead, Luc.LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC): (1035)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Let me proceed very quickly, because I have several short questions for Mr. Dufresne.Earlier, you mentioned that, the day after a piece of legislation was enacted, you had never seen a department say that it would delay its coming into force because it contains no date.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1035)[Translation]That is correct.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1035)[Translation]So this goes against the constitution acts and the primacy of Parliament.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxParliamentary democracyPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1035)[Translation]This is something we had not seen before. As I noted, the lack of a date in a bill does not prevent it from coming into force.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxParliamentary democracyPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1035)[Translation]Mr. Dufresne, you said earlier that a government can amend tax measures, apply them and implement them before a bill is passed. However, if I am not mistaken, the bill must have been introduced in Parliament beforehand.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1035)[Translation]The practice is that the government can announce tax measures that it will introduce later and, in some cases, begin to implement them at that time. However, the measures remain subject to final approval by Parliament, which will confirm that they are valid.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1035)[Translation] In your view, would Parliament be breaking the law if it announced now that it intended to make amendments to Bill C‑208 and put the new measures in place immediately?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1035)[Translation]Parliament, not the government, can amend the bill. The government can indicate that it intends to introduce legislation later and that it has begun to implement it, to an extent. However, if it does so, it is still subject to Parliament's approval and decision to pass the legislation.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1035)[Translation]What would happen if the government actually decided not to implement Bill C‑208 today and did not get parliamentary approval later? Who would be held accountable, given that there could be a change of government or an election? What would happen to all the victims, farms and small businesses that could not make the transfer according to the details of Bill C‑208?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1035)[Translation]It is up to the courts to determine whether state authorities or the public have complied with the legislation as it exists. If a concern to that effect were to be raised before the courts, the courts would have to address that issue.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1035)[Translation] So the current government could announce what it wants, such as making tax changes. Afterwards, aggrieved people would have to go to court. That possibility creates a lot of uncertainty for all small business owners who want to transfer their business now. The news release creates even more ambiguity because we don't have the details of a possible bill and what the government intends to do. I have one final question for you. The news release issued yesterday mentions that the measures are in effect now. But there was another one on June 30. In your opinion, will the people who would have benefited from the good news that Bill C‑208 was enacted between those two dates be adversely affected?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1040)[Translation]Bill C‑208 has been in force since June 29. This does not change and the news releases do not affect it. The June 30 news release indicated the government's intention to change the date of coming into force by means of a future bill. The July 19 news release confirms that this is not the case and that the legislation is in effect now.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1040)[Translation]It has been in effect since June. Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1040)[English] I'm sorry, Luc. We'll have to go to Mr. Maguire.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrablePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1040)[Translation]Yes, it has been in effect since June 29.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1040)[Translation]Thank you.PhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1040)[English]Larry.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire (Brandon—Souris, CPC): (1040)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank you for the calling of this meeting and our witnesses for being here today. Mr. Dufresne, in the case of June 30, 2021, when Finance announced the suspension of Bill C-208, what legal authority did the department use to announce this tax policy change?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1040)[English]My view is that the bill was in force. The bill has been in force since June 29. What the communiqué did on June 30 was indicate that the government intended to introduce future legislation to change that coming into force retroactively.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1040)[English]Certainly, we have to agree that only Parliament can decide whether to give that legal effect to a proposal by government for tax measures to apply retroactively. That's correct; I think you've already stated that.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1040)[English]Certainly, once the bill is in force, it applies until it's amended by Parliament.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1040)[English]Now that they've recused the statement from June 30 by yesterday's press release, let's say in a hypothetical situation they hadn't gone forward with yesterday's case, and they stuck to their original press release and unfairly delayed the implementation of Bill C-208 until January 1 coming up. What recourse could Parliament take against the department? I mean, this is contempt of Parliament, similar to what the government has done by suing the Speaker. What if it were to happen again? What are Parliament's options here in regard to taking action against the department? The department put out the press release.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1040)[English] Parliament has the ability to do as it has done, which is to act as the grand inquest of the nation and inquire into matters by the work of committees such as this committee, ask questions, obtain clarifications and, if need be, obtain course corrections.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1040)[English]What happens if the government provisionally collects a tax that ultimately never becomes law due to Parliament amending the bill or the bill never passing?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1040)[English]These are questions that ultimately can end up before the courts. If there is a dispute with respect to what was done, then the courts will look to the applicable law and precedents and will make their decision.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1040)[English]We'll go to Ms. O'Connell for five minutes. Then there will be a five-minute split between Mr. Ste-Marie and Ms. Mathyssen.Go ahead, Jennifer.PhilippeDufresneJenniferO'ConnellPickering—Uxbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88925JenniferO'ConnellJennifer-O-ConnellPickering—UxbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OConnellJennifer_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Jennifer O'Connell (Pickering—Uxbridge, Lib.): (1040)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's good to be back here on finance. I'm going to start with a couple of comments before I turn to you, Mr. Dufresne, but it's nice to see you again in what is probably a less contentious committee than our last one was, at health. Let me start where Mr. Maguire left off. He spoke in hypotheticals about any future legislation and the possibility of its being retroactive. His pessimism is interesting. He thinks we're heading into a majority government and that the government would have the ability to make whatever decision it wanted, so that's interesting. I share his optimism about our electoral success into the future. Also, with regard to his comments about any recourse from Parliament, that's interesting, because the opposition can't seem to take yes for an answer. Finance Canada clarified just yesterday. Mr. Fragiskatos confirmed again that the issues of coming into force were clarified. It's interesting that the Conservatives once again can't take yes for an answer. I'd also like to read into the record to correct some issues. I'm sorry. I hear a lot of chatter. I seem to be getting under the skin of some of the Conservative members, but I would like to read into the record after Mr. Kelly's comments about his famed outrage at the government. I'm really glad he wasn't here prior to 2015. He could speak to his good friend Mr. Fast.Let me read into the record about the previous government. Here it says:The Harper [Conservative] government became the first in Canadian history to be found in contempt of Parliament.... Even though it lost a court case and was ordered to comply, the Harper government nevertheless refused to share 170 times reasons and impacts for cuts with Canada’s independent budget watchdog, mocking Parliament’s right to control the public purse. Thank goodness Mr. Kelly was not in government during the Harper days, because I think he would be quite outraged at the actions of his party. Let's get back to the matter at hand, now that we've seen the Conservatives and the complete hypocrisy throughout this process and the fact that once again they write terrible motions—the government has to try to comply with their incoherent ability to write motions—and then try to feign some sort of wrongdoing by the government. To get back to this issue at hand, when it comes to the coming-into-force date, as I've already stated, the government and Finance Canada have clarified that. Mr. Dufresne, I will come back to you now that I've kind of clarified the hypocrisy from the Conservatives. On the substance of this, I tend to agree with you. I spent a number of years on finance, and I want to focus on the examples you gave in your opening statement, because I think they are quite right. Whenever I did a budget implementation act, a fall economic statement, a budget, or any tax provisions, the coming-into-force date was always the date those were tabled. That was my experience in terms of the publication of those things, because the government—and rightfully so—didn't want any tax planning measures or anything to happen between the time of the printing of the document—let's say a budget—and the time of coming into force, or whenever the regulations could be developed. Given your opening statement, can you maybe clarify why you feel that this coming-into-force date needed to be at the time it received royal assent, and how that's consistent with other tax policy around the publications etc., and the rationale behind that?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1045)[English]What I talked about is the practice that oftentimes when the government introduces proposed tax measures, it will start implementing them right away, and they are always subject to parliamentary approval. A government might announce that it will start to put it in place and implement something down the road, and then a bill is adopted with a date going back to the date of the announcement. That certainly can happen.In this case the bill was adopted with no date, and therefore it comes into force on the date of royal assent as per the Interpretation Act.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJenniferO'ConnellPickering—UxbridgeJenniferO'ConnellPickering—Uxbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88925JenniferO'ConnellJennifer-O-ConnellPickering—UxbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OConnellJennifer_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Jennifer O'Connell: (1045)[English] Thank you.Given yesterday's announcement, do you see Finance Canada as having corrected any possible confusion, and that the coming-into-force date is June 29, as established by royal assent?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1045)[English]The communiqué confirmed it yesterday. It does clarify that, certainly.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJenniferO'ConnellPickering—UxbridgeJenniferO'ConnellPickering—Uxbridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88925JenniferO'ConnellJennifer-O-ConnellPickering—UxbridgeLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OConnellJennifer_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Jennifer O'Connell: (1045)[English]Thank you so much. It was nice to see you again.PhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1045)[English]Thank you.To finish this hour, we'll have two and a half minutes with Mr. Ste-Marie and two and a half minutes with Ms. Mathyssen. Mr. Fast, you will get the final five.Gabriel.JenniferO'ConnellPickering—UxbridgeGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1045)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will wait until Mr. Gerretsen is listening.After what I just heard, let me remind you of the basic factors. We are here because something very serious happened. Parliament passed Bill C‑208, which is extremely important. When I first ran for office, it was the first issue people talked to me about. Farmers were saying that they had to choose between their retirement and their children, who wanted to take over the farm. The farmers would lose their pensions if they sold it to them, so they were wondering what to do. Members from every political party brought this bill forward to the House. As I said earlier, after 527 days, it was passed and it came into force. The government issued a news release saying that it would come into force later. The Liberals are therefore saying that they will not honour the will of the House, which is very serious. That is why members from each party have asked for this emergency committee meeting today, to emphasize the seriousness of what is happening. Much reference is being made to the news release issued yesterday afternoon, just prior to the committee meeting. I am sure that this correction made through the news release is directly related to the fact that the Standing Committee on Finance did its job and announced an emergency meeting. It is very important to remember that what is voted on in Parliament must be respected and that the government cannot act like a tinpot dictator by not implementing what it does not like. We live in a democracy, and that is not how it works. Let me come back to you, Mr. Dufresne.Yesterday, in the press release, the government announced its intention to make amendments in keeping with the spirit of the bill. The Liberals gave us their word. As they have said and as you have reiterated, this must be done through a whole new legislative process. In short, Parliament will have to pass a new piece of legislation. Is that the case?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1050)[Translation] That's right.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1050)[Translation]Okay. Could the government introduce a bill in the House to repeal Bill C‑208?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1050)[Translation]Bill C‑208, which was passed by Parliament after three readings in the House and royal assent, is in force. So we are discussing introducing amendments. The news release does not propose to amend the bill in its entirety. A bill that would essentially undo what has been done and say exactly the opposite would certainly raise a procedural question of whether it is possible to ask the same question in the House when it has already been answered. However, that is not what is being proposed at all. We are making amendments to uphold the spirit of the legislation to correct what the government perceives as certain shortcomings.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1050)[Translation] Actually—PhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1050)[English]We'll have to end it there. I'm sorry, Gabriel, but you're out of time.GabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1050)[Translation]Okay. Thank you.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1050)[English]Ms. Mathyssen is next, for two and a half minutes.GabrielSte-MarieJolietteLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1050)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Sitting in this committee as a non-regular member, I find it a bit disheartening that my colleagues across the way in the Liberal caucus have made representations, or provided past proof, that ultimately the Conservative Party of Canada has complete disrespect for Parliament. The Conservative Party, on the other side, has shown that Liberals now also have complete disrespect for Parliament. As a New Democrat who values that power of people, I want to ask you this, Mr. Dufresne. You have said repeatedly that the power of Parliament is supreme and that this power is determined by the people for the people. Can you just clarify once again that this is about people and the power of people, not the power of the political parties and not the power of the Liberals or the Conservatives themselves, and that respect must be shown ultimately to the people and Parliament?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1050)[English] Parliament has a fundamental constitutional role to play. The three roles that the House plays are recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada: legislating, deliberating and holding the government to account. Those are fundamental roles that the House plays and that Parliament as a whole plays. I'm here to support that in the best way I can.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1055)[English]Many thanks.PhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1055)[English]Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.We have Mr. Fast for five minutes, and then we'll have to go to the next panel.LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): (1055)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to echo Mr. Ste-Marie's comments. We're addressing something very serious here. I noticed our Liberal friends were making light of this issue, but this is no laughing matter, Ms. O'Connell. This is about defiance of the will of Parliament. Mr. Dufresne, I'm not going to ask you to make the assumption I'm making, which is that defiance of the will of Parliament by Mr. Trudeau will occur again under this government. This was not an oversight. My real fear is that if he's re-elected he will move again to defy the will of Parliament, not only on this, but on other legislation. My question to you is, does the government and do finance department officials have any right to delay or refuse to implement legislation that is properly passed by Parliament?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English]Legislation that is properly passed and that is in force—and that was the issue in this case, where there's no date of coming into force that's later—is in force as of the date of royal assent and becomes law. That is binding on the government and on citizens.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1055)[English]Did any finance officials or the Prime Minister's Office seek your legal opinion before announcing that they did not intend to implement C-208 before amending it?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English]No, and nor would they, because I am the counsel to the legislative branch, not the executive branch.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1055)[English]Are you at all aware of whether they sought legal counsel before proceeding that way?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English]I'm not aware. That's not information that I would have.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1055)[English]All right.Now, did I hear you say that the Prime Minister could make his proposed November 1 amendments retroactive?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English]Legislation can be retroactive if Parliament so decides, but Parliament has to express that very clearly.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1055)[English]You would agree with me that the government has signalled that it wants to make amendments and that they may be retroactive.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English]The government has signalled its intention to bring amendments. It has described what those would be about and it has talked about some application times in the communiqué, being the later of either November 1, 2021, or the date of publication of the final draft legislation. The communiqué speaks for itself on that.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1055)[English]There's absolutely no guarantee from this government that it won't totally gut Bill C-208 when it gets around to amending it.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English]We have the statement and that's what's there. There's no other statement on that at this time.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1055)[English]My Liberal friends just said there's no guarantee that pigs can't fly. That's the kind of disrespect we have come to expect from our Liberal friends.I have another question. What remedies do parliamentarians have to redress the government's refusal to implement duly passed legislation that is in force?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English]One of the roles of the House, as recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada, is holding the government to account. Doing this, such as the committee is doing now or as the House would do when it is sitting, in question period, is to hold the government to account and to ask questions and to require information and explanations.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1055)[English]Mr. Dufresne, does Parliament have the right to hold the Prime Minister in contempt if he fails to implement legislation that has been duly passed through the will of Parliament?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English]The House has disciplinary power over all its members, and it's up to the House to determine whether any situation would warrant using those powers.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1055)[English]I've been a member of the House for close to 16 years now, and I've never seen a government defy the will of Parliament before. You have said that you have seen no precedent for this kind of action being taken that we saw reflected in the press release of June 30. Am I correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1055)[English] The June press release was not something we had seen before.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1100)[English]It had not ever been seen in history.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1100)[English]Well, we have not seen precedents in recent history, certainly since I've been here.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1100)[English]That is a very sad comment on our government.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1100)[English]It's your last question, Ed.EdFastHon.AbbotsfordEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1100)[English]I'll just leave you with a statement, Mr. Chair. I've been appalled at the willingness of this Prime Minister to defy the will of Parliament and to challenge the supremacy of Parliament. We are going down a very dangerous road. By the way, this opinion isn't shared by just us Conservatives. It's shared right across the board. I've spoken to Liberals who are appalled that we have a Prime Minister who is prepared to take on the supremacy of Parliament. That's all I'll say, Mr. Chair. Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1100)[English]All right. We'll have to leave it at that.Mr. Dufresne and Mr. Bédard, thank you very much for your advice, number one, to parliamentarians and to this committee, which we often call on you to give. Thank you for providing us with your expertise today on where we're at in terms of the supremacy of Parliament. Thank you for that.We will suspend for a couple of minutes and bring forward our next panel.Again, thank you very much to you both.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyEdFastHon.AbbotsfordPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresnePhilippe-DufresneInterventionMr. Philippe Dufresne: (1100)[English]Thank you.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1100)[English]The meeting is suspended.(1100)(1105)PhilippeDufresneWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1105)[English] Okay, folks, we'll reconvene. Welcome, panellists. I'll just quickly go through this. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we're dealing with panel two. The committee is meeting to study the coming into force of Bill C-208, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation), and in this panel, the supremacy of Parliament as well. With us this morning we have, as individuals, the Honourable Peter Milliken, former Speaker of the House of Commons, and the Honourable Don Boudria, a former House leader. From the Canadian Federation of Agriculture we have Mary Robinson, president, and Scott Ross, assistant executive director. From the Fédération de la relève agricole du Québec we have Julie Bissonnette, president, and Véronique Simard Brochu, public affairs coordinator.We'll ask all of you to keep your opening remarks fairly short so that we get time for questions.We'll start with Mr. Milliken. Peter, you're on. C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)WayneEasterHon.MalpequePeterMillikenHon.PeterMillikenHon.Peter-MillikenInterventionHon. Peter Milliken (Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual): (1110)[English]Thank you for inviting me to appear. I haven't done this for a long time. I'm sorry we're not meeting in person on Parliament Hill or in the other building that you now meet in, but I hope all goes well.I was interested to read in the media about the problems with this bill and to hear that the government was putting in this thing where it would not allow the bill to take action until some time next year—January 1, I think it was. I was somewhat surprised by this. It's interesting that the committee is going to [Technical difficulty—Editor]. I understand that the minister has already announced some changes this morning to possibly solve the situation, but we'll see how that goes. I wish all of you well in your continued good work in parliamentary matters.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[English]Thank you, Mr. Milliken. Mr. Boudria, we'll turn to you for your thoughts. You've read lots about Parliament in your time, and did a lot of it. Go ahead.PeterMillikenHon.DonBoudriaHon.DonBoudriaHon.Don-BoudriaInterventionHon. Don Boudria (As an Individual): (1110)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Indeed, I was interviewed by The Globe and Mail at some point a few weeks back. The reporter questioned me as to the activities of the finance department in this regard. At first I didn't believe it. I said, “Well, surely you must be misreading what they're doing.” Then he gave me the details. Obviously, I came to the conclusion that it was improper.Contrary to what was said today, this is not the first time the finance department has done this. Both Speaker Milliken and I were members in 1989, when the finance department did the opposite of what it's doing now. In fact, it had pretended that the GST was the law. It was sending out circulars. If my memory serves me right, it had bought TV time and was advertising a tax that Parliament had not passed. It was severely admonished by then Speaker John Fraser at the time. I recall the incident. I believe I spoke about it. Peter Milliken probably did as well, as we were both very interested in parliamentary procedure. We're probably the last two non-parliamentarians who still are. In any event, this is not something that's unprecedented.I would gladly answer all questions later. There is the issue of the Interpretation Act. There is the Royal Assent Act, as well, to take into consideration here. Finally, if and when the government moves ahead with a bill, it must be preceded by a ways and means motion. What the government would be doing, should it change this to revoke the provisions for a certain group that it thinks the bill possibly could be too wide for, this would constitute what is called in parliamentary jargon the “revocation of tax alleviation”. Revocation of tax alleviation requires a ways and means motion before a new bill can be presented to the House.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[English]Okay. Thank you, Mr. Boudria.We'll turn to Mary Robinson, a Prince Edward Islander, like me. Go ahead, Mary, the floor is yours.DonBoudriaHon.MaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson (President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture): (1110)[English] Thank you, Mr. Easter. It's wonderful to be here. Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to speak to you today. As Wayne said, my name is Mary Robinson. I farm on a sixth-generation family potato, soybean, barley and hay farm in Prince Edward Island. I'm also president of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, which is Canada's largest general farm organization, representing nearly 200,000 Canadian farm families from coast to coast to coast.I will start by thanking the committee for convening so quickly and by expressing my appreciation for yesterday's announcement from Minister Freeland, ensuring that the uncertainty around the coming into force of Bill C-208 has, for the time being, been put to rest.Modern agriculture is capital intensive, with millions of dollars in capital assets involved in the transfer of most farm businesses these days. The passage of Bill C-208 ensures that each family that owns one of the 50,000 incorporated family farms in Canada can finally access the lifetime capital gains and capital gains treatment, avoiding what would potentially cost hundreds of thousands of dollars were this inequity to persist. While it's commonplace for a farm transfer to involve millions of dollars in capital, nearly all of this is tied up in productive assets that are essential to the maintenance of the farming operation into the next generation. Meanwhile, the retiring farmer needs to fund their retirement from the proceeds of a sale, and the next generation almost assuredly lacks the capital to buy the assets outright. Every dollar matters, and a smooth intergenerational transfer is critical to the financial health of both parties.For a sector that is almost wholly family owned, the impending transfer of tens of billions of dollars in assets across thousands of family farm transfers has a bearing on the outlook for an entire industry that is key to Canada's short-term economic recovery as well as Canada's long-term growth. Family farming is recognized internationally for sustainable growth, environmental stewardship and a connection to one's community, seen through increased spending in one's local community. It also contributes directly to the vibrancy and social fabric of rural communities across this country. The long-standing unfairness that Bill C-208 has addressed had been a disincentive to passing these operations on to the next generation and maintaining this way of life for thousands of incorporated family farms across Canada. Those who still wish to do so face undue additional tax liabilities that could very well be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Following the bill's royal assent, we were disappointed to hear that farmers and financial advisers were left uncertain as to the status of the bill's implementation, and we were pleased to see yesterday's announcement provide some additional clarity, both for the immediate future and for the government's longer-term plans in this regard.I would like to take this opportunity to applaud Parliament for passing Bill C-208 and resolving this long-standing inequity facing Canadian farms. I welcome this committee's efforts to ensure there is clarity moving forward. If further measures are needed to address undue tax avoidance, as outlined in yesterday's announcement, we would implore Parliament to ensure that the intent of this bill is maintained, grandfathering family farms' access to capital gains treatment for the transfer of incorporated family farms. Such access can easily be limited if undue administrative burden or significant costs are reintroduced into the system. Given the extensive consultations with farm advisers since 2012, when CFA first called for a resolution of this inequity, we believe the targets for future amendments can be addressed while this access for Canadian farm families is maintained. However, we believe this can be assured only through dialogue with farmers and farm advisers.The potential for unintended barriers is significant unless there is consultation with those who have direct experience in managing farm succession and financial planning. In 2018, CFA actually convened round tables of farmers and farm advisers across Canada to discuss this subject with Finance Canada officials and to inform their work on this very topic. We would be pleased to facilitate similar engagements again to ensure that any future legislative amendments respect the realities of modern family farm transfers.(1115) In conclusion, we call on the government and Parliament to ensure that the inequity that Bill C-208 resolves is not reintroduced and that Canadian family farmers are never again disincentivized from selling to the next generation by the Canadian tax system. I thank the committee for its time, expediency and commitment in seeking to provide clarity around the coming into force of Bill C-208. Thank you.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Canadian Federation of AgricultureCapital gains taxFamily farmsPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1115)[English]Thank you, Mary.We turn now to Ms. Bissonnette, president. Go ahead. The floor is yours.MaryRobinsonJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette (President, Fédération de la relève agricole du Québec): (1115)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good morning everyone, members of Parliament and Mr. Chair.Thank you for inviting us to share our observations with your committee on the issue of business transfers. My name is Julie Bissonnette, and I'm a dairy farmer in L'Avenir and the president of the Fédération de la relève agricole du Québec, or FRAQ. With me today is our public affairs coordinator, Véronique Simard Brochu.We already introduced ourselves at our last appearance, but here is a reminder. The FRAQ is an organization that brings together 16‑ to 39‑year‑olds who share an interest in farming. We represent more than 1,700 members from across Quebec. We are here today to talk about the implementation of the tax measures contained in Bill C‑208.Let me begin by quoting what I said during our previous appearance before the Standing Committee on Finance, which certainly sets the stage for today's discussion: The next generation of business owners has been speaking out about the problem for more than 15 years. Hopefully, this time, it will be fixed once and for all. As we have mentioned before, with the average age of farmers now over 55, there was indeed an urgency for the farming community to act. In fact, 70% of these future transferors would prefer to keep their businesses in the family. It is therefore the preferred method of transfer, especially since it is six times more likely to succeed than an external transfer.With the bill passing in both Houses and receiving royal assent on June 29, 2021, we were finally able to celebrate this major victory. However, there was a lot of confusion following the Department of Finance's announcement on June 30, suggesting that implementing the legislation would be delayed.We are very pleased to see that, last night, the department put an end to almost a month of confusion by finally clarifying farmers' questions. As the department states, “the changes contained in this legislation now apply in law.” This answers our biggest question, namely whether related farm transfers are now entitled to the same exemption as third‑party transfers. However, we would like the department to make it clear that, if a genuine family transfer occurs between now and the passage of this potential bill, it will include those exemptions and will not be penalized by any measures to come. The government should clarify this issue so that tax experts and accountants can feel free to advise their clients on the transfer of their business without fear of misleading them. Members of Parliament may actually want to ask them this question this afternoon.It is important to clarify this for the agricultural community. Given the importance of such legislation, the department did the right thing yesterday by providing answers to clear up the confusion that was rife. At the FRAQ, we believe that changing our tax system is a serious job that should not be done with a news release. That is why the right way of going about this is to let the current legislation do its job and then propose changes in a future bill, as was explained yesterday.In terms of the next steps, it is clear that the government's intention is to facilitate farm transfers while protecting the integrity of the tax system. According to the news release, “forthcoming amendments are intended to make sure that it facilitates genuine intergenerational transfers and is not used for artificial tax planning purposes.”We have no problem with that, as long as it does not interfere with genuine family farm transfers between family members. We therefore encourage the Department of Finance and members of Parliament to follow the example of the Quebec legislation, which has put in place several criteria to ensure the authenticity of family transfers. However, it is essential that the intentions of Bill C‑208 be maintained so that no parents are dissuaded from selling the family business to their children because of the tax system.We must not forget that transferring a business is a very big step. Many factors need to be considered, and it is not simple. At the end of the day, all transfers are different and unique. Therefore, there cannot be a one‑size‑fits‑all definition for farm transfers. This must be kept in mind when setting future conditions. The inequity that has just been addressed should not be replaced by another barrier.In conclusion, we wish to reiterate that we are grateful for the department's clarifications and look forward to future proposals. In the meantime, after the confusion over the past few weeks, it is good to know that the legislation is actually in force.Our thanks to the members of the committee for seeking answers and for inviting us to share our first‑hand experiences. Thank you for listening.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxFédération de la relève agricole du QuébecPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English] Thank you very much, Ms. Bissonnette and all the panellists. The first round of questions will go to Mr. Fast, Ms. Bendayan, Mr. Ste-Marie and Ms. Mathyssen. We'll start with five-minute rounds to try to pick up a little time.Mr. Fast.JulieBissonnetteEdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1120)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses.My questions will be directed to Messieurs Boudria and Milliken. Both of you gentlemen have had very many years of understanding of parliamentary process and procedure. I think all of us around this table respect that, but there is a bigger issue here at play. As I said earlier, this is a very serious matter. I think the two of you recognize that. I'll start with a very big question. Overall, what do these events—in other words, the initial government defiance of a duly passed law of Parliament—say about the state of Canadian democracy and the role that our executive branch plays vis-à-vis the legislative branch? I'd be interested in comments from both of you.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Mr. Milliken, do you want to start?EdFastHon.AbbotsfordPeterMillikenHon.PeterMillikenHon.Peter-MillikenInterventionHon. Peter Milliken: (1125)[English]I'm not sure how this all began. I assume it was not a cabinet decision to suspend the bill's immediate application. I assume it was something that was recommended to them or dealt with by public servants, who said, “We don't want to do this right away. We can delay this for a while.” I just don't think they thought about the legal implications of it. I think they thought they had done it before with government bills. Often a bill will have words in it that will allow them to do such a thing. This was passed and became law. I think it should have been automatic. That's the impression I have, but I haven't followed this closely or anything. I'm delighted they've changed their position and are now going to allow it to go into effect immediately, which is what I think you have to do with an act of Parliament.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Mr. Boudria.PeterMillikenHon.DonBoudriaHon.DonBoudriaHon.Don-BoudriaInterventionHon. Don Boudria: (1125)[English]First of all, I don't believe there was ever an order in council passed in order to change that effective date. I don't see that it could have been a cabinet decision or anything like that.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequePeterMillikenHon.PeterMillikenHon.Peter-MillikenInterventionHon. Peter Milliken: (1125)[English]No. Right.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyDonBoudriaHon.DonBoudriaHon.DonBoudriaHon.Don-BoudriaInterventionHon. Don Boudria: (1125)[English]What seems to have happened here—and I'm only going to give you my impression—is that inside several government departments there has been a lack of knowledge regarding how Parliament works. Do the people who made that decision know that there's such a thing as the Royal Assent Act? Do they know there is such a thing as the Interpretation Act? Do they even know that bills come into force automatically on royal assent if there is not a proclamation or a coming-into-force clause in the bill? Finally, when the official from Finance Canada was interviewed by the Globe and Mail reporter, they seemed to make a distinction between the commencement date and the implementation date. In their view there was a difference. To me, that's like saying your birthday is different from the day you were born. I mean, this is ridiculous. They're euphemisms, and everyone knows that.Finally, what was the intention of Parliament? If Parliament had wanted this bill to come into force later, it would have said so in the bill. Similarly, if Parliament had wanted to have a specific date that was not the date of royal assent, that too could have been in the bill. In other words, there were two occasions on which that could have been put in the bill by the drafter of the private member's bill in question. I don't even think we should call it a bill anymore. It's not a bill now. It's an act. It's actually part of the statute law.Anyway, the law as amended, which is now what it is, reads the way it does because that was the intention of the “Legislator”, capital L. If the legislator had wanted it otherwise, the legislator could have done so, but it did not. If Finance says the legislator made a mistake, well, it's the legislator's entitlement to make such a mistake. If it wants to correct it, it can. As I said, though, because it's revoking tax alleviation, it will first have to present to the House a motion of ways and means. Subsequently, by the way, that motion of ways and means will have to be concurred in by the House. Only then will you be able to introduce the bill, because you'll be revoking tax alleviation that was provided for in this bill. Not implementing it was never in the cards.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterMillikenHon.WayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English] Thank you, Don.We'll have to go to one more question from Mr. Fast and then move ahead. Go ahead, Ed.DonBoudriaHon.EdFastHon.Abbotsford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35904EdFastHon.Ed-FastAbbotsfordConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FastEd_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Ed Fast: (1125)[English]I've already said my fear is that this may happen again. Either the Prime Minister's Office, cabinet, or maybe Finance officials on their own.... We don't know who directed whom in this case. My fear is this will happen again.My question to both of you is, if this happens again, what are the remedies that parliamentarians have to ensure compliance with the rule of law?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Who wants to start?Mr. Boudria, we have you on screen, if you can be fairly quick. We're going to rapidly run out of time. We'll hear from Mr. Boudria and then Mr. Milliken.EdFastHon.AbbotsfordDonBoudriaHon.DonBoudriaHon.Don-BoudriaInterventionHon. Don Boudria: (1130)[English]Well, very quickly, I think that, notwithstanding what happened yesterday, this should still be raised in the House. By having it raised in the House, the Speaker will be able to rule on it and assert Parliament's authority. Essentially, that is what is required. Whether the Speaker will choose to do that or not, or whether he'll say that now it's become a hypothetical question because the press release in question was replaced with a different one that seems to respect the authority of Parliament, well, the Speaker will have to make that decision on his own. Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[English]Mr. Milliken, do you have anything to add?DonBoudriaHon.PeterMillikenHon.PeterMillikenHon.Peter-MillikenInterventionHon. Peter Milliken: (1130)[English]I think Don's comments are absolutely correct. The Speaker can make a decision on this matter if it's raised there, but whether it would be raised is another issue. Matters do come that way, occasionally, before the Chair. The Chair can decide whether Parliament's privileges have been breached by this kind of action. I think it probably would have been decided that way—that's my guess, anyway.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[English]Ms. Bendayan, you have five minutes.PeterMillikenHon.RachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1130)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Let me begin by thanking you as well, both as chair and as a member of our government's caucus, for your leadership on all things related to finance, and in that vein, also for calling this meeting of the finance committee at the end of July, when the House isn't sitting, in order to clarify matters in relation to the coming into force of Bill C-208. As others have said, I believe you are a giant in the House of Commons, sir, and a mentor to so many of us. I would like to thank you.Some hon. members: Hear, hear!Ms. Rachel Bendayan: This was mentioned earlier this morning, further to questions from different members. I would really like to unequivocally confirm on behalf of the government that any amendments to safeguard our tax policy or to avoid artificial tax planning in connection with Bill C-208 would not be retroactive. As stated in the press release of yesterday, new proposals would apply as of the later of either November 1, 2021, or the date of publication of the final draft legislation. I hope that clarifies matters for my friends and colleagues.[Translation] I also want to add my voice to those of the previous speakers and stress the importance of parliamentary supremacy. So my first question is for the representatives of two organizations that are here to represent our dear farmers. Thank you very much for joining us today. As Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade, I am particularly interested in the issue of intergenerational transfers. As we all know, most farms are SMEs. The 2016 census showed that more than half of all farms are sole proprietorships, and nearly a quarter of those report as family businesses.I feel that our government has demonstrated that we are here to support our SMEs in all sectors, including the agricultural sector, which I believe has 200,000 businesses in this country. If we look at our government's record during the pandemic, we see that it has provided $1.4 billion to the agricultural sector through our wage subsidy and $50 million, in the agricultural sector alone, for rent assistance. There is also $5 billion in additional funding for Farm Credit Canada, $125 million for AgriRecovery to help producers with the additional costs of COVID‑19, $50 million for redistribution of unsold products, and more. My question is about the Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of a small business or family farm or fishing corporation). Now that we have clarified that this act has actually been in effect since June 30, what are the biggest issues you are facing today, from a tax perspective? Ms. Bissonnette, you have noted that the transfers are quite complex. Could you start? Do you have any suggestions or concerns from a tax perspective that you want to mention to the government today?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1135)[Translation]Thank you for your question. My statement that the farm transfers were not simple was mostly about the human and economic aspects and included the whole process in general. My statement was more along those lines. There are a lot of barriers. Also, all farm transfers are different, so there is no magic formula. Each company has to develop its own strategy. That's more what I was talking about. Also, asset values are going up. So, the more the values go up, the more the farms are worth, and a lot of money is being transferred. On the human side, we work with our families. It's still about bequeathing a lifetime's work, so to speak. We always say that agriculture is a way of life and a passion, so this is a big step. That's also what we were presenting. We were hoping that at least the government would remove the tax barrier, which they have done in the last month and confirmed yesterday. The tax aspect was the most significant obstacle for us.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyRachelBendayanOutremontRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1135)[Translation]That's great. I heard you loud and clear. Thank you, Ms. Bissonnette. Perhaps we could go to Ms. Robinson.JulieBissonnetteMaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson: (1135)[English] I believe the question was what more could be done in regard to tax. What are the more complicated things we face in tax? Is that correct?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyRachelBendayanOutremontWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]That's correct, Mary.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson: (1135)[English]Thank you, Wayne. I'm hearing feedback.Probably what the government could do at this point in time to help farms would be.... Obviously, our big concern was this unfair intergenerational tax situation we had, which has been addressed. We now have an act. As Don has pointed out, it's no longer a bill. Moving forward, I think what we would like to see are things like a grocer's code of conduct. We would like to see improved BRM and other measures put in place to help strengthen the family farm, so that if people want to avoid amalgamating to try to capture those economies of scale, we can better ensure the margins that farmers are able to capture. As we've said, it's a capital-intensive investment, which means that much of our money is tied up in land, equipment and buildings. It means that we have a lot of skin in the game. In the value chain of our food system, we seem to be at the tighter end of the margins scale. If government would take a more favourable look at what it does to ensure that farms are on sure footing financially, that would ensure that the next generation would feel confident in taking on that investment of millions of dollars for most family farms.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]We will have to end this round there and go to Mr. Ste-Marie. I will just mention for the benefit of committee members what Larry and I must know for sure, that BRM means business risk management.Go ahead, Mr. Ste-Marie, followed by Ms. Mathyssen.MaryRobinsonGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1135)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good morning to all the witnesses. Thank you for your very interesting presentations.I will begin with a comment for Ms. Bissonnette.Thank you for your presentation. You had a question. It could even go to the senior officials this afternoon. I was delighted to hear that we already had the answer from Ms. Bendayan, who was speaking on behalf of the government. She assured the companies that will be doing family transfers that the next bill amending Bill C‑208 will not be retroactive. I commend and thank the government for sharing this commitment with us. Before I turn to questions, I have a comment in response to the discussions we have heard at this meeting. Senior officials in the Department of Finance may have had concerns about the implementation of a bill, but I don't think that's at all an excuse. In the previous hour, Mr. Dufresne, the Law Clerk of the House, appeared and told us that. He knows full well, as does everyone here, that, when a bill has no implementation date, it comes into force on the day it receives royal assent. Mr. Dufresne reminded us that the government, the Minister of Finance, the Prime Minister and everyone else in government, relies on the Department of Justice to advise them on this matter. There is no better resource than the Department of Justice for advice on how legislation works. Everyone in the government knows full well that when royal assent is received, the legislation is in force, that is how it works. Even if the government did not know that, the senior officials have no excuse and cannot say that they did not know either. The minister and the government are responsible. If they didn't know, they are like boy scouts in short pants and that's inexcusable. It is completely unacceptable.I have one other comment. According to yesterday's Radio‑Canada article, between the first reading of Bill C‑208 and royal assent, there were 527 days, or a year and a half. At each stage, at first reading, second reading, third reading, report stage, committee and Senate, the government could have proposed amendments. If it had done its job as a government in any serious manner and if it had said that it had concerns about tax evasion, which are perfectly valid, why did it let this go on for 527 days? Then it decides to have a new bill, and we gather that it will likely be after the election. They are creating uncertainty by saying that they are going to propose their amendments. Yet they had 527 days to do so. Once again, it smacks of boy scouts in short pants. It is really sad.My last comment before my questions is this. Yesterday, we received the news release that corrected the situation and the Parliamentary Secretary, Rachel Bendayan, spoke on behalf of the government. Phew! We saved the bill, it's in effect and it will be implemented. I am very pleased about that.I want to commend the work of all the members of the committee. I think the fact that the committee called an emergency meeting enabled the government to make this correction. I particularly want to raise my hat off to the chair of the committee.Thank you for this meeting, Mr. Chair. It has changed everything.Let me proceed with the questions.I'll start with Ms. Bissonnette.Your presentation was excellent. You mentioned that 70% of Quebec farmers want family succession. You have a dairy farm. How much is an average dairy farm worth when you include the fields for grain and everything else? On average, what is it worth in Quebec? Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1140)[Translation]It could come to millions of dollars.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1140)[Translation]Are you saying $2 million?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1140)[Translation]I am saying it could come to millions of dollars.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1140)[Translation]You are saying it's millions of dollars. How much did it cost parents to sell their farms to their children rather than to strangers, before the legislation was passed?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1140)[Translation]After June 29, many young people contacted me to tell me that the impact of the legislation was easily hundreds of thousands of dollars for their business, in which they will be able to reinvest the money.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1140)[Translation]So, deciding to sell your farm to your children meant giving up hundreds of thousands of dollars and the passage of the Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of a small business or family farm or fishing corporation) corrects this injustice. You said that you have been pushing this issue for 15 years. In 2015, when I ran for office, this was the first issue I heard about. Farmers are well mobilized, and so are the small and medium‑sized businesses. It's really very important. Don't stop, keep going. Let's hope that, in the end, we will get there.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieBissonnetteWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[English] Thank you both.We're turning to Ms. Mathyssen, who will be followed by Mr. Berthold and Mr. Kelly on a split. Go ahead.GabrielSte-MarieJolietteLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1140)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses.We've heard a lot of statistics. I want to ensure there are statistics about the fact that over the last decade 8,000 family farms have disappeared. The average Canadian farmer has seen their debt double since about 2000. The last statistics I could see were from 2019. That debt is about $106 billion. That's quite significant. Could both Ms. Bissonnette and Ms. Robinson talk about how that impacts their members specifically and their plans for retirement? Certainly there has been a great deal of stress, during COVID, on those families and those small businesses. What has that additional stress caused?I want Ms. Bissonnette to go first.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Bissonnette.LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1140)[Translation]Thank you for your question. As I was saying, transferring a farm is generally quite a stressful time. The uncertainty of the past month has not helped either. That's why I repeat that we are very happy with last night's clarification. In terms of succession, it's mostly that—Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English] If I could interrupt, Ms. Bissonnette, for a minute, we're not getting translation, or at least I'm not. Can we check the translation there?Ms. Bissonnette, could you unplug your mike and plug it in again and see if that works? Just unplug your mike, that special mike that Parliament sent you. Okay, try it now.JulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1145)[Translation] Is it working?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]Yes, that's working. Go ahead.JulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1145)[Translation]With respect to the concerns, the last month has clearly not been easy and the stress level has increased. The pandemic came on top of the droughts and the weather. Summer is always a bit more stressful for farmers. So the past month hasn't been easy, but we were happy to hear yesterday that it has been resolved. Last month, that was our concern for the next generation of farmers. I will let Ms. Robinson continue.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]Could we go to Ms. Robinson on the same question? Mary.JulieBissonnetteMaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson: (1145)[English]With regard to the stresses that people feel on farms right now, there are so many and they're so varied. The very nature of agriculture in Canada is incredibly diverse, both in the size of farm operations and in the commodities they're producing. Generally speaking, what we want to see and what we advocate for a lot at CFA is improvement to the business risk management programs so that farmers have a financial backstop, so that they don't have this overwhelming stress that when something comes along that's well beyond their control they're going to lose everything. It's an interesting combination, and I'm sure, Mr. Chair, you could speak to this. The combination of tradition, of multiple generations, of being viewed as a steward of the land and the environment in your community creates a high-stress situation all on its own. Just in recent years, we've seen geopolitical issues. We've seen transportation issues. We see climate issues. We see carbon tax potential. We see many things that are being downloaded to farmers. Farmers, ultimately, are price taggers. We produce commodities. Very rarely do we have an opportunity to influence the price we're being paid.Our government needs to make sure the foundation of our food system is well shored up and is well positioned so that the next generation of family farms can come along and do an exceptional job.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]It's your last question, Ms. Mathyssen.MaryRobinsonLindsayMathyssenLondon—Fanshawe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105221LindsayMathyssenLindsay-MathyssenLondon—FanshaweNew Democratic Party CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MathyssenLindsay_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Lindsay Mathyssen: (1145)[English]A lot of that farmland we talk about—that protection of sustainable farmland and the environmental consequences, of course—has been lost over the years through urban sprawl. Again, we speak of that debt of a lot of your members. Of course, what this bill could do to protect against foreign interests taking over and redeveloping that land and to ensure that it's protected from that urban sprawl is ultimately one key basis of this bill. Could you talk about what your members are facing in terms of that as well, and about how this bill specifically can protect against having foreign investors take over and redevelop?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English] Do you want to start, Ms. Robinson? Then we'll go to Ms. Bissonnette.LindsayMathyssenLondon—FanshaweMaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson: (1145)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Ultimately there are no farmers I'm aware of who would sell their land if their farm were profitable. One of the best things we can do to prevent the loss and erosion of arable land in this country would be to ensure that farms are profitable and that they have a financial backstop. Farming is a way of life and it's a business. It's an interesting mingling of the two, but ultimately, farmers carve off and sell land because of economic pressures, in my opinion.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]Ms. Bissonnette.MaryRobinsonJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1145)[Translation]Thank you for your question. It's interesting because, for the young farmers, access to land ownership and climate change will be part of their whole life. We're seeing that especially right now. With respect to climate change, as we often say, agriculture is definitely part of the solution. We take care of our land. We need guidance and support. Ms. Robinson was talking about profitability. It's easy to say that the next generation of farmers must do this or that, but in order to do so, they must be supported. Access to land ownership is a more important issue, because we don't have the solution. If the perfect solution existed, we would have it. We really continue to promote access to farmland for future generations and, most importantly, the conservation of our land. Farmland is our wealth in Canada, because it feeds the people. It will certainly be an issue in the coming years. In fact, it is already an issue.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English]Thank you all.We'll turn to Mr. Berthold for about three minutes, with the same for Mr. Kelly, and then Ms. Dzerowicz will wrap it up.Mr. Berthold.JulieBissonnetteLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1150)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. First, perhaps because I am not a regular member of the committee, I do not share the enthusiasm of my colleague from the Bloc Québécois about the comments of the parliamentary secretary and yesterday's news release.I would remind you that Bill C‑208 was voted on by Parliament, but all members of cabinet voted against it. The Department of Finance issued a news release noting that the bill would not be implemented until January 1, 2022.As a former chief of staff, I can tell you that a news release of this nature is not issued by the Department of Finance without at least someone in the minister's office having seen and approved it. It's a very important item and a major change in terms of finance. More importantly, it is a major change in terms of the implementation of legislation that has been passed by Parliament. A news release of this nature could not be issued without the approval of the office of the Minister of Finance. My question is for Ms. Bissonnette, whom I know well because I have met her on several occasions.Without being afraid, would you be able to recommend, today, that a family proceed with the transfer of its farm, knowing that the government has already announced that there will be amendments to Bill C‑208?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1150)[Translation]Thank you for your question. As I said, the last few months have not been easy. There has been added stress, but last night we had confirmation that the situation was resolved. As for the future, for now, Bill C‑208 has come into force and the legislation is being implemented. That's what we've been hearing for the last little while. We assume that the situation is resolved. Of course, every business is different and every transfer is different. It is up to each business to actually validate the farm transfer. For us, the bill has been in effect since it received royal assent. Clearly, we will be watching with great interest to see what happens next. For now, we are reassured by yesterday's confirmation and this morning's confirmation of the nuance that we were missing. We consider that it is settled.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1150)[Translation]Do you think the government should be clearer and more specific in writing? Should it give you specific information rather than just words in a news release?Hundreds of thousands of dollars are at stake for the transferors and for those who want to buy the farms. A lack of clarity has created uncertainty and vagueness that may cause some farm families to wait and to have no trust at all.I remember that the government has often said in the past that it would not touch supply management. We were often told that there would be compensation. But basically, we still don't have a clue about the compensation resulting from the Canada‑United States‑Mexico Agreement. Don't you think this adds a layer of uncertainty for all producers that is really not necessary?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1150)[Translation]Thank you for your question, Mr. Berthold.The June 30 news release definitely created some uncertainty, but yesterday's clarified the situation.However, again, we are relying on royal assent and the legislation coming into force. The rest, including the news release, is more about the future. As I said, since the legislation has been confirmed, we continue to focus on that.It's certainly not ideal to send out the information in a news release when the legislation is already in effect, but at least we have the certainty that the situation is resolved.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1150)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Bissonnette.I'm going to turn my time over to—JulieBissonnetteWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1150)[English] I'm sorry, Luc. We'll have to move to Mr. Kelly.Pat, you're up.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrablePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1150)[English]Thank you. My question is for former speaker Milliken. Thank you for your service to Canada during your long tenure as Speaker. During your time as Speaker, which spanned two governments and two prime ministers, did the government of the day ever sue the House of Commons and name the Speaker of the House in a lawsuit against the House of Commons?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeRachelBendayanOutremont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1155)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'd certainly defer to you on the rules regarding relevance, but I believe that this meeting was called to discuss the coming into force of Bill C-208.C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1155)[English]To speak to the point of order—RachelBendayanOutremontWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]What's your thought on the point of order? Go ahead.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1155)[English]—the topic of the meeting, of this panel of the first meeting today, is the authority of Parliament.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Okay. I'll let the question go.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1155)[English]Thank you.WayneEasterHon.MalpequePeterMillikenHon.PeterMillikenHon.Peter-MillikenInterventionHon. Peter Milliken: (1155)[English]I don't recall any such lawsuit when I was there, no.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1155)[English]Does it concern you that the government would sue the elected members of the House over their authority?Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPeterMillikenHon.PeterMillikenHon.PeterMillikenHon.Peter-MillikenInterventionHon. Peter Milliken: (1155)[English]I can't imagine how they could if they've exercised their authority properly.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1155)[English]Yes. They have done so, anyway.Mr. Chair, if this is indeed the last panel, I will maybe let Mr. Maguire get a question in. I think I have a minute and a half left. PeterMillikenHon.WayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Okay.Mr. Maguire, you have a minute and a half.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/7251LarryMaguireLarry-MaguireBrandon—SourisConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MaguireLarry_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Larry Maguire: (1155)[English]Well, thank you very much. I want to thank Mr. Boudria and Mr. Milliken for their clarity today as well.I want to ask a question of Ms. Robinson and Ms. Bissonnette. In the Department of Finance press release that was put out yesterday—after 527 days, as my colleague from the Bloc said, of fighting this bill, and 20 days to have said why, if it were such a good bill, they didn't vote for it in the House—the caption reads “clarifies taxation for intergenerational transfers of small businesses”. The Deputy Prime Minister is acknowledging that it's law. Everybody knew that except their own caucus. I think it's nothing new to say that.However, there's still doubt here. I've already had phone calls on that. They're saying, “Well, we know it's law now”, but the release also has that “forthcoming amendments are intended to make sure that it facilitates genuine intergenerational transfers and is not used for artificial tax planning purposes.” On the word “genuine”, I want to ask my colleagues in the agriculture field, because this applies to all small businesses. The government wanted to remove the other 97%, other than farming and fishing, from the bill in the Senate in that regard. The use of the word “genuine” leads me to believe that the government doesn't believe that a lot of these transfers are genuine, and that it believes there may be some hidden agenda behind them. So does “not used for artificial tax planning purposes”, when the government knows full well that CRA can audit anyone at any time.The questionable part of this whole thing about introducing amendments and introducing the bill is that it also states that these would apply as of the later of November 1 this fall or the date of publication of the final draft of the legislation. My question to you is, do you think this will ever happen? The later could be another two decades away, or six years or four years. I see this as a very open-ended opportunity for the government to continue what it's done for the last six years, which is nothing in this regard. I think the four points in this statement it put out yesterday also lead to a great deal of misunderstanding—by the government in this particular case, not the finance department—about how these businesses are the same as any other small businesses, that farming and fishing are the same as any other small business. They're talking about the stripping of wealth in these small businesses, but they're only referring to that if it's a family farm or a family business, not one that's sold to a complete stranger. These things are very concerning to me, as a former farmer and farm leader in western Canada, or in all of Canada, for that matter. I just wonder if you could comment on those points.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English] We're getting into the details of the bill. I would say, Mr. Maguire, if you go back and look at the record on Ms. Bendayan's words, I think that was spelled out pretty clearly there from a government perspective. That will be in the record.Who wants to take a stab at that question?LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisMaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson: (1155)[English]I will, Wayne.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Go ahead, Mary.MaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson: (1155)[English]I think you're absolutely correct, Mr. Maguire, that it's not black and white. It's still a bit grey. It certainly causes me concern. Julie was asked earlier if there would be confidence in telling someone to move ahead immediately with a transfer intergenerationally. I personally would be quite nervous of it. I think we heard Mr. Boudria speak to the idea of November 1 or the later publication. I am not a parliamentary expert by any means. I'm a farmer. I rely on my financial advisers. I hope there's great clarity given to accountants as they guide these multi-million-dollar transfers that happen, with the implication of hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes to be paid.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]Thank you for that.We'll turn to Ms. Dzerowicz for the last round. Then we'll adjourn until the next panel this afternoon, with Finance. We should be able to get some clarity then.Ms. Dzerowicz.MaryRobinsonJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz (Davenport, Lib.): (1200)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. My colleague, Mr. Gerretsen, would like to speak for the last minute of my questions. Could you make sure to cut me off, including the answer?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]All right. I don't mind at all cutting you off at four minutes.JulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1200)[English]Okay. No problem. Then I have a lot of time.I want to thank you for convening this session today, and I want to thank all my colleagues for making it out today. It's actually nice to see people in person.It was quite clear from the news release put out yesterday by our government that we're committed to implementing Bill C-208. We're also committed to protecting the integrity of the tax system.Ms. Robinson and Ms. Bissonnette, as we are intending to bring forward these amendments, what messages would you send to the federal government as our officials work on these amendments? That's the first part.Second, Ms. Robinson, you made a very clear plea to make sure that officials connect directly with grassroots farmers. Are there any other groups we should make sure to touch base with?Maybe we could start with Ms. Robinson, follow with Ms. Bissonnette, and then transfer whatever time I have left to Mr. Gerretsen.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMaryRobinsonMaryRobinsonMary-RobinsonInterventionMs. Mary Robinson: (1200)[English]In regard to grassroots consultation, we represent farmers. I probably shouldn't speak for industries outside of farming. I'm not familiar with them the way I am with agriculture. I think it's incredibly important for government to speak with farmers and understand, because it is such a capital-intensive investment. It's perhaps not very well understood by people outside of agriculture, and sometimes in particular by people who live in large urban centres, which seems to be most of government and bureaucrats. We would appreciate great consultation with our members on that.At this point, I would defer to Scott Ross to speak on the other point, if that's okay.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyJulieDzerowiczDavenportScottRossScottRossScott-RossInterventionMr. Scott Ross (Assistant Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture): (1200)[English]Thank you, Mary.To the question, I think one message we would convey is that succession, as I think Ms. Bissonnette said earlier, is not a clear-cut and one-size-fits-all process for Canadian farmers. We highlighted the need for dialogue because it is a very complex process that can take a lot of different forms. It's not really a matter of just answering a couple of questions and ensuring that those are respected. I'd suggest it's having a very engaged dialogue with not only farmers but also the myriad farm advisers who are involved in succession planning. That's everyone from succession planning specialists to accountants and legal counsel as well. This is a very involved process, with a lot of capital involved, as Mary said. I think it's about getting all the right voices in a room and making sure all those perspectives are informing that discussion.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Canadian Federation of AgricultureCapital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyMaryRobinsonWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]Ms. Bissonnette, did you want to add anything?ScottRossJulieBissonnetteJulieBissonnetteJulie-BissonnetteInterventionMs. Julie Bissonnette: (1200)[Translation]Yes, thank you. I certainly agree with Ms. Robinson and Mr. Ross. As I said earlier, criteria have already been put in place in Quebec, and things seem to work. We really have seen no evidence to the contrary. Perhaps we should start by looking at what is being done there. We heard that recommendation often during the consultations on Bill C‑208. In addition, as I mentioned earlier, there is no reason why farm transfers should be affected by the criteria, given that tax evasion is not the purpose of business transfers.Of course, we hope that the safeguards will not add barriers to future transfers.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)C-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English] Okay. Thank you.I should add as well here that we didn't have room for another witness. I know—JulieBissonnetteMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands, Lib.): (1200)[English]Mr. Chair, do I still get the last minute there?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]Yes, you have the last minute.I just want to add on this point, because we've heard from the agriculture sector, but I do know Dan Kelly from the small business sector had asked to come before the committee, but we couldn't handle a fifth witness on this panel. I'm sure he and the fishing community as well would be saying that they absolutely have to be consulted as well on the points outlined in the press release going forward. I don't want that to be lost because we have just agriculture here. That has to be assured as well.Mr. Gerretsen, you have about a minute and a half.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsMarkGerretsenKingston and the Islands//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88802MarkGerretsenMark-GerretsenKingston and the IslandsLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GerretsenMark_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Mark Gerretsen: (1205)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My question is for you, Mr. Milliken. I'm a big fan of your work. Your work has come up a couple of times in this room today, in particular in discussions around parliamentary privilege and finding Parliament in contempt.In that vein and following on the questions of Mr. Kelly, I want to go back to a ruling you made. I believe it was back in 2010, and I'm reading from The Canadian Press here, “Milliken ruled Parliament had a right to order...”. This is in regard to the breach of parliamentary privilege over the Afghan detainee documents. You ruled that Parliament had “a right to order the government in December to produce uncensored documents to members of a special committee examining allegations that detainees transferred to Afghan custody were tortured.” You said that the order was clear and procedurally acceptable, but you acknowledged that it had no provision to protect sensitive information within the material.Here's where your ruling differed from one that has been referenced recently in this committee, which occurred recently in the House of Commons. You said specifically, during the lengthy ruling, that you called on House leaders, ministers and MPs to find a “workable accommodation” to satisfy all parties “without compromising the security and confidentiality contained”. You made it very clear that you respected and the House respected that confidentiality that was a requirement through other statutes and other laws. You saw the need to encourage members to find accommodation.In fact recently, when a similar situation happened in front of the House of Commons, the House leader, Mr. Rodriguez, stood up and tried to find accommodation, yet there was no willingness from the other parties to see that. I'm curious as to whether you can comment on why you thought it was so necessary to have that accommodation seen and to find that compromise so that the confidentiality could be protected.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]Mr. Milliken, I will allow the question because we've had it from both sides. If you could give a fairly concise answer to that question, then we will adjourn until the next panel.MarkGerretsenKingston and the IslandsPeterMillikenHon.PeterMillikenHon.Peter-MillikenInterventionHon. Peter Milliken: (1205)[English]Well, I thought the thing to do was to have these documents reviewed by a panel of members in secrecy so they could choose which ones should not be made public, because making them public would cause a breach of national security. That was the purpose of it. My understanding was that the group met in private and in secret. They were sworn to secrecy and they did some of this work, but I never had the result. Parliament was dissolved before they ever announced anything from their findings, so I never heard a word. I don't know what happened. Parliament was dissolved, so the Speaker's ruling went out the window. When the new Parliament met, that was another issue. It wasn't raised, as far as I'm aware, but then I was gone and retired. It was just one of those things that happened. Because the members were sworn to secrecy, when I would ask one of them, “What's going on? Are you having meetings on this?”, they said, “I can't tell you anything, sir. We're sworn to secrecy.” I just don't know what happened. I never did hear it.Arms-length relationshipC-208, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (transfer of small business or family farm or fishing corporation)Capital gains taxPrivate Members' BillsTransfer of propertyWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]Thank you for that, former speaker Milliken. We're getting into a little parliamentary history here, and that doesn't hurt any of us; that's for sure.With that, we say thank you, Ms. Bissonnette and Ms. Robinson and the people with both of you, and thank you, Mr. Milliken and Mr. Boudria. Thank you for appearing today and for answering our questions, and for having a bit of a lively discussion at times.With that, the meeting is adjourned.PeterMillikenHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Chris Warkentin (Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, CPC)): (1100)[English] I call to order the 42nd meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. I would like to remind colleagues that today's meeting is webcast and will be available through the House of Commons website. The committee is meeting today because of a request that I and the clerk received from four members of the committee, pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), to discuss a request to undertake a study of members' expenses related to Data Sciences and NGP VAN.Now, given the ongoing restrictions here in the province of Ontario and in the House of Commons, based on the recommendations of health authorities, I'd like to remind members that there is a two-metre physical distancing requirement. Members must maintain masks when circulating throughout the rooms. Proper hand hygiene is encouraged as well. Hand sanitizer is available here in the room. As chair, I will be enforcing those measures. If you as members have any requests in terms of these requirements, please let me or the clerk know. Thank you for your co-operation.I see that I have a speaking list starting to develop. Mr. Barrett has indicated he wants to go first, followed by Mr. Carrie.Mr. Barrett, I will turn to you.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsMeeting requested by four members of the CommitteeNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett (Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC): (1100)[English] Thanks very much, Chair.The reasons for the 106(4) letter that you referenced, which has us here today, are some concerning revelations that have been reported in the media, specifically The Globe and Mail, that deal with contracts involving Data Sciences, which is a company that was founded by an individual named Tom Pitfield. This individual is a personal lifelong friend of the Prime Minister, who is a member of the Liberal caucus. This individual is also a senior Liberal campaign strategist, and that organization, Data Sciences, has been an integral part, as publicly reported, of the Liberal Party of Canada's electoral campaigns and their voter contact database known as Liberalist. It helps with things like digital engagement for its campaigns. Furthermore, NGP VAN is a company that the Liberal Party of Canada licenses to run its political database. NGP VAN and Data Sciences are reported by the folks who have been contacted by The Globe and Mail to do the same thing. We've seen the contract between the Liberal members who have signed and NGP VAN, and we know that Data Sciences is being contracted by Liberal members. The rationale once given by the company for the contract with Data Sciences is that it provides technical support for the services provided by NGP VAN. The problem with this is that the contract that was published in The Globe and Mail details the service-level agreement including technical support for its own software, which raises the question, what is Data Sciences doing for the Liberal members? What are they getting from this contract?When asked, some members of the Liberal caucus responded—and here I'll refer to a June 21 Globe and Mail article entitled “Liberal MPs’ budgets pay same firms that help run party’s digital campaigns”—as follows. The article reads in part:Mr. Easter [the member for Malpeque] was unable to explain what Data Sciences did for his office in managing social media. “I do my own,” he said. “I quite honestly don’t know what [Data Sciences] does,” he added.Liberal MP John McKay also said he had no idea why money from his office budget was going to Mr. Pitfield’s company. “I haven't got a clue,” he said. “I can't explain it. I vaguely recall that once a year we write a cheque and it's always been explained that it is within the ethical guidelines, so we all kind of sign up for it and it just goes into some oblivion”.The concern as it relates to this committee, Chair, is that this places some members of the government—members of the Liberal caucus—in a conflict of interest based on their relationship with Mr. Pitfield. We have individuals who have personal friendships with public office holders. They're then given contracts by those public office holders, and, what's more, those individuals, in this case a minister, are in a position to direct or coordinate other members to retain those services for purposes that the members are unclear about.Certainly in the context of our fiduciary responsibility to manage the funds that are entrusted to us in the exercise of our role as members of Parliament and to dispense funds from what we know as our MOB, our members' operating budget, it's important that we first of all understand why we're retaining the services of others. I also think it's important for Canadians to understand that signing contracts is not something a member can delegate. Members have to personally sign and authorize those contracts. There needs to be an understanding and certainly a basic awareness of what a contract is for. That's exercising a basic fiduciary responsibility. (1105) When there is all of this context of those personal relationships, of that connection to a political organization, and when in these contracts it's very clear that there's an exclusivity, that the company will only deal with members of one political affiliation, in this case Liberal members, it raises all kinds of questions. The functionality of the software also raises questions about whether there is an ability to engage in very specific voter-related activities.It's for those reasons that we initiated the call for this meeting. It's very important, when there seems to be an inevitable election coming this summer.... I welcome the Prime Minister's proving the speculators wrong on that, because now is not the time for an election. I think it's important that we understand whether or not taxpayer money from members' budgets has been used to subsidize the political operations of a political party in Canada. It's very important that we know that there's been no misappropriation of that money and that we understand that there have been no conflicts of interest in members' and ministers' exercise of their duties. That's what brings us here today.With that said, Chair, I would like to move the following motion:That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h)(vii), and in light of recent media reports, the committee undertake a study on conflicts of interest relating to taxpayer-funded contracts with Data Sciences Inc; and that the committee do invite Mr. Tom Pitfield to appear and testify before the committee at a time and date of the Chair’s choosing and no later than seven days following the adoption of this motion. Mr. Chair, that motion is available in both official languages in paper format, and it's been provided in electronic format to the clerk, so it's whatever your comfort or members' comfort is with receiving that in paper. Once that's been distributed, I just have a few final comments to make before other members speak to or against the motion.Committee businessCommittee studies and activitiesConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsMotionsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan (Châteauguay—Lacolle, Lib.): (1105)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, can we have some time to study the motion, since it's the first time the committee is seeing it? Can we have 10 minutes?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1105)[English]What we'll do is circulate it. I will suspend the meeting until such time as it's been circulated. I'm not sure it will be for a full 10 minutes, but it will allow for members to at least read it before debate. I believe Mr. Barrett had some further comments to make, so it will allow members to read through that as well during that period of time.We'll now suspend for just a moment....Mr. Dong.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong (Don Valley North, Lib.): (1110)[English]I believe it's the order that once a member moves a motion, he pretty much loses the floor. The floor is ceded to the next speaker.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[English]Mr. Barrett did not cede the floor. He did make it clear that he was circulating the motion to allow him to speak to it. If it's the member's desire, we can continue and not suspend, if that's more helpful for members. I think there's a difference of opinion.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1110)[English]Is Mr. Barrett officially moving the motion?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[English]He's moving the motion, and he's made it clear that he has some comments to make with regard to the motion.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1110)[English]He has further comments. He isn't done moving the motion. That's part of the moving of the motion process.Okay. Got it.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[English]We will suspend until such time as the motion is circulated.The meeting is suspended.(1110)(1110)Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.HanDongDon Valley NorthChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[English]I call this meeting back to order. I believe the copies have been circulated. Mr. Barrett, we will turn to you.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1110)[English] Mr. Chair, with respect to the concerns about a conflict of interest, this is something that's been discussed in the last year—certainly the appearance of a conflict of interest—but we need to be, of course, cognizant of actual conflicts of interests as well. Mr. Pitfield's personal relationship and the question that it raises.... As I initially identified, there is that relationship with the Prime Minister, but there's also a relationship with other ministers of the Crown as well—Minister Miller, Minister O'Regan. The connection to the Liberal Party is as close as you could get, because at the time these contracts were initially signed, Mr. Pitfield was married to the then Liberal Party of Canada president. Moreover, the Prime Minister's principal secretary at the time, Mr. Butts, was also a personal friend of Mr. Pitfield.These close relationships, when awarding a contract.... We talk about the magnitude of the two contracts, but whether it's tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars, we are responsible for ensuring that not only do we spend the money wisely so that we can serve our constituents with those members' office budgets, but that we also make sure that we're not undermining the public's confidence in what we do here and how we got here. As I mentioned before, in the context of an election, if members of a party are taking the funds from those office budgets to help subsidize the political operations of a political party, which will ultimately be the same banner they run under in the next election, well, that is going to give rise to concern among Canadians about the independence of and the confidence they can have in their elected officials and public institutions. It's that perception, but also that real conflict when we have those close relationships. There's also the dynamic of when the party whip, as reported in the newspaper, is the one coordinating or directing members to all procure the same service provider. Members aren't given a whole lot of leeway. You know, the party whip has one job, and it's to get people to do what the government wants them to do. The whip assigns committee roles. The whip assigns your seat in the chamber. Certainly, if things aren't going well between you and the party whip, you're not going to find yourself on the front bench or serving as a parliamentary secretary or a committee chair if you're in a party that is first or second in the House. It's certainly concerning. It creates the perfect storm for conflict when you have those personal relationships with members at the cabinet table and you have a member at the cabinet table directing or coordinating other members to all procure the services of this individual and their company. Then, what is that company actually doing? Is there a benefit for service? Well, that remains unclear. We have two Liberal members saying they have no idea what the services are for, and then we have the response from the Liberal research bureau as to what the company is doing for them, while those very same members have also signed a contract for a company that's providing the identical service, in terms of technical support, as NGP VAN is for them.That's the crux of the matter here. I do think this is something that we can deal with rather expeditiously. I think we can address this issue. If it's simply miscommunication, or a lack of information, perhaps members today will be able to enlighten us on exactly what this contract does in their office. That might go a long way. It might shorten the length of time we would need to devote to this. Perhaps, if Mr. Pitfield were available, if this motion passes, we could dispense with this matter before the end of the week. I know that folks have travelled to Ottawa. We could get this done over a couple of quick meetings after today.(1115) I think that would go a long way to reassuring Canadians about what's happening in their democratic institutions on the eve of an election.Thank you.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1115)[English]Thank you.I have a speaking list that has developed here: Mr. Carrie, Mr. Boulerice, and then Mrs. Shanahan.Mr. Carrie.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC): (1115)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I want to thank Mr. Barrett for bringing this up. This really speaks to the fundamental transparency of our electoral system. I was extremely concerned when I read about this in The Globe and Mail, especially now as we are wading towards an unnecessary election. Canadians deserve to know where their money is going. It's very clear that Mr. Pitfield is a partisan actor here. He did the work for the Liberal Party in the 2015 and 2019 political campaigns, and my understanding is that he is going to be doing the same thing again. However, he is being paid by Liberal members out of their operating budgets. As Mr. Barrett pointed out, and what many Canadians don't understand, is that our operating budgets are for our constituents. In my office we look after seniors, veterans, people who are looking for benefits, and immigration. To have their taxpayer dollars, especially during this pandemic, going for partisan purposes is something that concerns everyone, because it does speak to the fundamental transparency of our system. What's extremely disturbing to me is what appears to be the connection here, in that these are more Liberal insiders. In other words here's Mr. Pitfield, who is one of the Prime Minister's best friends. Let's just talk about this relationship here. He grew up with him. Their fathers were best friends. He went to that illegal vacation with the Prime Minister and his wife, with his wife, who was the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada. Then we find out through the media about these secret agreements, these contracts. Even Liberal MPs don't even know what his company is doing. We have a copy of the contract with the company that is supposed to be doing it, NGP VAN, and we found out that there was a centralized campaign that was steered by the party whip. Mr. Barrett clearly pointed out—and I don't think Canadians realize who the party whip is—that the party whip is the guy who has the whip. He tells you about discipline, about what to do and what not to do, and when he presents a contract to members to sign, as The Globe and Mail reported, 97% of Liberal MPs signed that thing.I just wonder what kind of pressure there would be for me as a member of Parliament if my whip came up and said, “sign this”, because our functions here at the House and everything is determined by the whip's office. Whether we're sitting on a certain committee or whether it's in terms of the influence to become a minister or a parliamentary secretary, the pressure on members of Parliament would be enormous. I would just look at which members of Parliament didn't sign this and what they're doing right now. That will be interesting as we investigate this further.The government has been asked these questions, and it hasn't been forthcoming. The situation we're in right now is one of pre-election. We see the Prime Minister going out and spending taxpayers' money right, left, and centre. As I said, members' operating budgets are for our constituents. This is something that was organized through a minister's office, through the whip directive to other ministers and members of Parliament, and if this is true, Mr. Chair, a conflict of interest has occurred. Liberal ministers having a relationship with a company and forcing contracts to be signed between members of Parliament and a personal friend of the Prime Minister for services that apparently are being covered by another company is an outrageous abuse of our privileges here, Mr. Chair.(1120) This is something on which, as Mr. Barrett says, there may just be a miscommunication. I think Canadians deserve to know where their tax dollars are going, and given the history of this Prime Minister, we need to get to the bottom of it as quickly as possible.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English]Mr. Boulerice.ColinCarrieOshawaAlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-Patrie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice (Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, NDP): (1120)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good morning, everyone.Obviously, we in the NDP were also disturbed when we learned from media reports that almost the entire Liberal caucus had given a portion of its parliamentary funding to a company called Data Sciences, which is in part responsible for running the Liberalist database. Another company, NGP VAN, is also paid by the Liberal Party of Canada to run the database.The lines have been blurred; this is a grey area. People are rightly asking questions. Is the Liberal Party of Canada spending parliamentary funds on a database that it uses for partisan purposes? It is entirely appropriate for us to ask that question, especially since Data Sciences is owned by Thomas Pitfield, a personal friend of the Prime Minister. It feels as though the record got stuck at the same spot and history is repeating itself: the Liberals are helping friends of the Liberal Party and making no bones about reportedly using taxpayer money to do so.Questions have to be asked. The facts have to come out. No stone should be left unturned in getting to the truth.We agree that Mr. Pitfield should appear as a witness. We need to hear from him. We have questions for him. However, we don't want this to turn into a free-for-all or some flagrantly partisan spectacle. In light of the unanswered questions before us, we think two hours with Mr. Pitfield would probably be long enough to ask the necessary questions, and obtain the clarity and information to either reassure Canadians or worry them even more.We are amenable to the motion that was put forward by the member and is currently before the committee, but we would like it to specify that the committee will hold only one meeting on the subject. With only one witness, two hours should be plenty of time for the committee to examine the issue. We are not interested in spending all summer on this. It would be a misuse of taxpayer money to drag this out doggedly if the issue could be dealt with in two hours.We are in favour of holding one meeting with Mr. Pitfield as the witness.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Thank you.We'll turn to Mrs. Shanahan.AlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1125)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Usually, it's quite nice to see everyone in person, but to be honest, I don't sense much enthusiasm in the room today, and I wonder why. In the past, we have seen Mr. Barrett muster up a lot more passion for other issues. Perhaps the reason is that there is nothing to this issue, so it can hardly arouse any passion.I do, however, want to take this opportunity to answer a basic question. What does Data Sciences do? Allow me to explain.I, for one, know that the firm provides my office with technical support. Mr. Gourde, Ms. Gaudreau and Mr. Boulerice will probably understand when I say that finding IT support in French is really tough, especially for English-based software. Data Sciences provides that service. It is a Canadian company that hires bilingual employees with the skills to provide us with the service we need.I went over the monthly invoices, and they look like any other invoices for technical support: $200 here, $149 there. The company provides a valuable service for my French-speaking constituents and staff. That is what the company does. An American company can't provide services in French. As for the company's anglophone services, the fact that it's Canadian makes it that much better.Those of us on this side are wondering what the point of all this is, but at the end of the day, we know full well why we are here. We know exactly why the members across the way don't want to let the summer go by without summoning us to Ottawa. Suddenly, it's no longer time to talk election, even though they have repeatedly voted against the government. In their minds, it's time for the fake scandal of the summer, as I like to call it, and they are doing their darndest to stir one up.I feel really sorry for everyone out there who hung around Mr. Trudeau in the schoolyard when they were children. I imagine that, right now, someone is compiling a list of all the Prime Minister's friends from school. “Found one; let's investigate. Here's one who owns a business; let's check it out.”We've seen it all before on this committee, haven't we? Luckily, we were meeting virtually then, not in person. People with the slightest hint of a connection to anyone in the Liberal Party were called as witnesses. They were hauled before the committee so members could pick holes in their story. They were regular folks. I'm sure everyone recalls the appearance of Martin Perelmuter, one of the owners of Speakers' Spotlight. I found it uncomfortable to listen to the questions asked of him and others. He was simply doing his job—hiring people to give talks—but he had the misfortune of doing business with someone connected to the Prime Minister. That was all it took to unleash the name-calling. It was all over social media.Mr. Chair, I'm still waiting for certain members of the committee to apologize, for that matter. Luckily, the chair apologized at the time, but I'm still waiting for their apologies.I won't get into all that, though, because I would have a whole lot more to say on the subject.(1130)I was glad, however, to see the media report on political parties' collection and use of data. That is already an important issue here, in Parliament, but it does not fall within this committee's purview. Matters pertaining to the activities of political parties are normally dealt with by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs or the Board of Internal Economy.This committee deals instead with public office holders, in other words, those who hold the position of minister or top public servants. It is not the committee's job to investigate what goes on in this person's or that person's office. I'm looking at you, Mr. Gourde, but it could just as easily be my, your or Ms. Lattanzio's office. That is not the committee's job.In a moment, I'm going to ask the clerk to recap the committee's mandate for us. It's been a long time since we've all reviewed it together. I know that you, Mr. Boulerice, have experience and know exactly what I mean. Every committee has a specific mandate and purpose. This committee examines matters pertaining to four commissioners, the Ethics Commissioner, the Privacy Commissioner, the Commissioner of Lobbying and I forget the fourth one. Can anyone help me out?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau (Laurentides—Labelle, BQ): (1130)[Translation]The Information Commissioner.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1130)[Translation]That's it, the Information Commissioner. In fact, we had plans to study access to information issues. We wanted to do more work in that area.That said, the news articles before us mention more than just the Liberal members and poor Mr. Pitfield, who has the misfortune of being Justin Trudeau's friend. The Conservatives are also mentioned. According to the reports, the Conservatives have their own system. If I understand correctly, it isn't paid for by the House, but the purpose is to reach out to citizens who are not necessarily donors or voters. It's combined. I'd like to know more about the system; I think it's very interesting.I'll tell you something, Mr. Barrett. Ten years ago, I donated $50 to the Conservative Party. That was in Jim Flaherty's day.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1135)[English]More, more, more!BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1135)[Translation]That's the truth. Jim Flaherty was working on financial literacy. Do you know that I still receive emails from certain members sent from their Assistant 1 accounts? I made a donation to the party, but I receive emails from constituency offices. Interesting, isn't it? Perhaps we should look into that. I think it's very important.Let's get back to the information before us relating to the Liberal Party. We've had contracts with these two companies for years. The company with the odd name—what is it again? Here it is. It's called NGP VAN. That company provides the software. It's a long-standing contract. It's the same company we deal with for the Liberalist database, but there's what they call a firewall between the two systems. All the big IT companies have that because of all their different clients. If another party ever wanted to do business with the company, it could have the opportunity.Nevertheless, we've seen all the attempts by the member for Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes—what a lovely name for a riding, by the way. He and his party are going out of their way to find the name of every single business person who is a Liberal. It's actually not a crime to be a Liberal. We all have our political allegiances in life. We want people to engage in civic life. We want people to be politically active. That's what democracy is all about. According to Mr. Barrett, however, it is unacceptable to own a business and do business with our party. Clearly, this is yet another witch hunt. They have found nothing. Isn't that right? The Ethics Commissioner released his report, but the findings probably weren't what the opposition members were hoping for.As I said earlier, I'd really appreciate having the clerk talk about the mandate of this committee and that of the Board of Internal Economy. It may not cover everything, but I have a snippet here.This is what the Standing Orders say about this committee's mandate:(h) Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics shall include, among other matters:(i) the review of and report on the effectiveness, management and operation, together with the operational and expenditure plans relating to the Information Commissioner;(ii) the review of and report on the effectiveness, management and operation, together with the operational and expenditure plans relating to the Privacy Commissioner;(iii) the review of and report on the effectiveness, management and operation, together with the operational and expenditure plans relating to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner;(iv) the review of and report on the effectiveness, management and operation, together with the operational and expenditure plans relating to the Commissioner of Lobbying;(v) the review of and report on reports of the Privacy Commissioner, the Information Commissioner, the Commissioner of Lobbying and the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner with respect to his or her responsibilities under the Parliament of Canada Act relating to public office holders and on reports tabled pursuant to the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act, which shall be severally deemed permanently referred to the committee immediately after they are laid upon the table;That brings me to Standing Order 108(3)(h)(vi):(vi) in cooperation with other committees, the review of and report on any federal legislation, regulation or standing order which impacts upon the access to information or privacy of Canadians or the ethical standards of public office holders;(vii) the proposing, promoting, monitoring and assessing of initiatives which relate to access to information and privacy across all sectors of Canadian society and to ethical standards relating to public office holders;and any other matter which the House shall from time to time refer to the standing committee.(1140)It's clear, then, that the committee's mandate relates only to the work of those four commissioners or a special project, such as the one on the security of personal information or the one on new technologies, which we tried to undertake and hope to have a chance to complete. Nevertheless, the parliamentary institution that deals with issues of a more political and partisan nature, and matters relating to the expenditures of members is the Board of Internal Economy.We have all seen cases where members misused their funding and had to go before the Board of Internal Economy to defend themselves. They faced fines or restrictions as a result of their actions.As we all know, the Board of Internal Economy is made up of members from every recognized party. That is one of the principles of Parliament: members are to settle issues related to the activities of other members.Here we all are, meeting today. I'm not sure what things are like in your neck of the woods, but we are probably all trying to enjoy a bit of downtime with our families. In my province, things are good and we are able to go out. I've even participated in a few activities put on by not-for-profit organizations. Businesses have been able to hire students. Things are good, and we are able to serve our constituents. That is the whole point of using any software to manage constituency work. For instance, these systems help us identify where farmers who need to be consulted are. Right now, I'm consulting with stakeholders and organizations that work with people with disabilities. It's really important to have access to systems like these, which help us do our job. I hope no one here is going to dismiss the importance of having access to service in French as well. I hope everyone understands just how important it is to have this type of technical support available in both official languages. It's hard to stop once you get going, but I will leave it there. Now I'll switch to English to explain what I'd like to do.[English] I will now move the following amendment: Whereas section 52.6 of the Parliament of Canada Act states that, in relation to the BOIE, “the Board has the exclusive authority to determine whether any previous, current or proposed use by a member of the House of Commons of any funds, goods, services or premises made available to that member for the carrying out of parliamentary functions is or was proper, given the discharge of the parliamentary functions of members of the House of Commons, including whether any such use is or was proper having regard to the intent and purpose of the by-laws made under subsection 52.5(1)”, I move that the motion be amended by adding, after the word “That”, the following:the issue of contracts related to Data Sciences be referred to the BOIE. That the issue of the CIMS system which facilitates partisan election related actions to be taken from constituency offices and parliament hill offices to determine if they are in compliance with the rules set out by the Board also be referred to the BOIE. (1145)[Translation]I have it in English only. Can I send it to you?Amendments and subamendmentsCommittee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsMotionsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English] Mrs. Shanahan, if you have that sent over to the clerk so that it can be circulated, I will review it then.Members, we will suspend for a couple of minutes until such point as.... Monsieur Boulerice, you have a point of order.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleAlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-Patrie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1145)[Translation]I do, indeed, have a point of order, Mr. Chair.The Liberals' amendment is in English only. Is there a French version? If not, it is out of order, in my view.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1145)[Translation]Usually, we have it translated, but this time, I have only the English version. My apologies.If you give us a bit of time, we can have the amendment in French. I should say that it's largely based on the wording from our package.[English]Should we work on it, and...?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.AlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]It would be helpful if you would supply it to the clerk in both official languages. BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1145)[Translation]Great.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[English]That makes it much faster, in our experience.We'll suspend until such time as it has been distributed in both official languages.The meeting is suspended.(1145)(1200)Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English] We'll call the meeting back to order. The amendment has been circulated. It would insert the text sent by Ms. Shanahan between the words “That” and “pursuant”. Based on the amendment, it would add to the motion proposed by Mr. Barrett. That is the amendment.As the chair, I'm in a little bit of a conflicted position in that I don't know that it's out of order for us to do this, but I do know that that is not done: Committees don't tell other committees, and don't have the power to tell other committees, what to do. So we are restricted. This amendment, based on the way it has been proposed, would simply be an addition to the motion and the instruction that Mr. Barrett's motion would provide. It would effectively make simultaneous or concurrent investigations by two separate committee, if in fact BOIE took up the recommendation. We aren't able to instruct other committees what to do.I do have a speaking order on this. We have Mr. Barrett, Ms. Lattanzio, Mr. Fergus, Mr. Carrie and Madame Gaudreau.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1200)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, but my amendment would remove everything afterwards. It is a request that it be moved that—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]That wasn't what was submitted.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1200)[English]Okay.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]Would you like to withdraw your amendment?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1200)[English]No.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]Okay. We will debate the amendment as it has been proposed.Mr. Barrett.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.): (1200)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, could you just read the amendment, then, and the motion as it would be amended?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[English]I believe you all had it sent to you. Effectively, Ms. Shanahan's amendment would be inserted, as it prescribes, after the word “That” of Mr. Barrett's motion. Ms. Shanahan's amendment would be inserted there as per her instructions.Mr. Barrett.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.StevenMacKinnonGatineauMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1205)[English]This is on the same point of order, Chair, before you recognize me in the speaking order.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]I'm recognizing you on a point of order, Mr. Barrett.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1205)[English]The amendment seems to deviate from the scope of the original motion. It seems to me that by referring it to another committee and including other elements that are not included in the original motion and that are not part of members' disclosures because they are not paid for by members' office budgets, we've really gone off track here from the original motion.I'm not sure, Chair, if you can give us a definitive ruling, but if you're ruling this motion in order, because based on that, I question whether or not it's within the scope of the original motion.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenziePatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio (Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, Lib.): (1205)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I understand what my colleague just said, but in terms of the interventions that have been made here this morning, the original motion of my colleague speaks to “in light of recent media reports”. Well, media reports, if we base ourselves on the various articles of The Globe and Mail, have discussed not just the ones that are pertinent to what my colleague is putting into his motion. We've spoken about the CIMS and Populus and about other data that have been used by all of the various parties. I think on that point, the amendment of my colleague Ms. Shanahan is very much on point. Mr. Barrett, you make reference to “in light of recent media reports” on this issue. The issue, if I'm understanding you correctly, is with regard to using constituency data for political purposes. The participants this morning have referred to these media reports. I think that's why you came up with this motion.In all fairness, Mr. Chair, I think the amendment is very pertinent.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English] I'm recognizing Mr. Carrie on the same point of order.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1205)[English]Yes. I wanted to speak to this point of order, Mr. Chair. What I'm concerned about is that we've seen this tactic before by the Liberals. They like to talk out an issue that they really don't want to address. I'm concerned because the amendment is, in my viewpoint, ridiculous. To be sending....She mentioned CIMS in her statement. My colleague mentioned taxpayer dollars versus partisan dollars. It seems the Liberals have no idea about the difference between them. The CIMS is not using taxpayer dollars. The original motion that we're talking about is about the Liberal Party using members' operating budget dollars, taxpayer dollars, to fund partisan activities. That's what we're talking about. The scope of her amendment is entirely beyond the scope of anything we would be doing here. I would submit that even the Board of Internal Economy wouldn't be looking at it, because they look after members' operating budgets. They don't look after partisan activities at all.Mr. Chair, I think we're going to end up talking this out because the Liberals just don't want to deal with this—again—and I'm worried about a cover-up.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[English]On the point of order, gentlemen, I will go to Mr. Fergus.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ColinCarrieOshawaGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): (1205)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.On the point of order raised by my colleague Dr. Carrie, I would just like to make sure that we understand, that everyone understands, that CIMS is paid for by the party to be used for partisan purposes. The real issue is that CIMS is also being used by constituency and Hill staff, who are paid with taxpayer dollars. Therefore, who pays for the actual database is not relevant. It's that the staff, paid by taxpayer dollars, are doing partisan work by using that partisan database from their offices or from their equipment, which is also paid for by taxpayer dollars. Mr. Chair, that's the reason. I'm just clarifying that for Dr. Carrie.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[English]Okay.It seems that we've gotten into a point of debate. I believe the point of order was Ms. Shanahan's originally. She was making a point of order with regard to whether her text would be inserted or whether it would replace existing text. I have ruled that, based on how she submitted it, it would be inserted between the words “That” and “pursuant”. This would be an addition.It is not common—it is something that actually is impossible—for one committee to tell another committee what to do, but I am going to allow this amendment to be voted on by the committee members to determine. Whether or not they appreciate our instruction, if in fact it passes, that's up to them. I think it would probably be best to move to a vote on the amendment, if the committee would allow for that. Then we can get on with debate on either the amended motion or the original motion.We'll move to a vote, unless members want to....We still have a speaking list. Okay. We'll go back to a speaking list on the amendment. I'm getting different signals here. Some don't want to go back to the speakers—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.GregFergusHull—AylmerMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1210)[Translation]I have a point of order.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[English]We can go to a vote or we can have—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1210)[Translation]Before you call the vote, could you please tell us again what we are voting on, so we know exactly what's what.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[English]The debate right now is on the amendment. It's just on the amendment. It's not on the motion but on the amendment from Ms. Shanahan. If members want to speak to that, I do have a list of members.Mr. Barrett.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1210)[English]Thanks very much, Chair.Let me go back to some of the remarks Ms. Shanahan made. She called this a fake scandal. I wonder where we've heard before the Liberals say that the story in The Globe and Mail is false. Well, of course we know that this came directly from Prime Minister Trudeau when they laid out the case that ultimately saw him found guilty, for a second time, of breaking ethics laws. That's the commentary we get from the Liberals when they say that they don't believe the story, that they don't believe The Globe and Mail reporting. It's as close to calling it fake news as we might get, but they call it a fake scandal. Well, that's certainly their purview.I mean, I wonder if Mr. Easter, who's quoted in that original article, is getting real bang for his buck with that French-language translation service, if he's really digging deep with that. I wonder if all of the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of Liberal members are availing themselves of that. We have seen before that the Liberals will procure the services of a company that is completely unable to fulfill their obligations in the service of French-speaking Canadians. We saw that with the WE scandal. They said there was only one company in the world that could deliver the CSSG for them, and it was this WE group, but they were going to need—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1210)[English] I have a point of order.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[English]I'm recognizing a point of order.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1210)[English]Is this on a point of order? Are we—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[English]No, we're on the speaking list. We're on the debate— StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1210)[English]It's on the amendment.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[English]It's on the amendment.Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.StevenMacKinnonGatineauMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1210)[English]Well, I'm glad that we have Mr. MacKinnon joining our show already in progress. Welcome to the committee, Mr. MacKinnon. Yes, you may not have had the opportunity to hear all of the outrageous claims that were made by your colleagues on why the WE organization was selected to deliver a program that it couldn't possibly deliver on, which was why the government had to sub out French language services if it were to deliver the CSSG in Quebec. We have a real pattern here. The Liberals say, “Yes, we have this great service provider, but they can only do half the job. They can't serve French language constituents, so we're going to pay somebody else to deliver on that service as well.”Ms. Shanahan also talked about the committee's ability to handle this matter. The Standing Orders are very clear in subparagraph 108(3)(h)(vii):the proposing, promoting, monitoring and assessing of initiatives which relate to access to information and privacy across all sectors of Canadian society and to ethical standards relating to public office holders;Therefore, this study is quite clearly within the mandate of our committee. I'm sure they'd like to talk about lots of other things, such as what Conservatives do, so if we're going to talk about what we do in our offices, I'm glad that we brought it up. I'm happy to tell the members of the committee that in my office we use a program called CivicTrack. We don't use any other software. I'd be very interested to hear about their data management practices. You've heard mine. You can see that disclosure and you can talk to my staff. In fact, some are here. If we wanted to get this under way today, I'd be happy to have my staff talk to the committee about how we exercise our function and how we are appropriately stewarding taxpayer dollars.I have a lot of questions about what's happening on the other side of the table. That's why it's so important that we hear from Mr. Pitfield. This amendment that we have from the Liberals is a red herring. They want us to chase this amendment and run out the clock. We're here to deal with something. We can deal with it very quickly. I would be very happy to support an amendment to the main motion that, as Mr. Boulerice suggested, would see us meet for two hours. Once we've dispensed with this, I'd be pleased to deal with that idea. If the intention is that members want to add all of the parties' data management software and all the independent service providers they use and give the Board of Internal Economy lots of work to do over the summer, I guess it would be up to BOIE if it wanted to take up the task, but let's talk about what this committee can do. This committee, today, can decide to deal with this issue. I think it's very serious when we have a potential conflict of interest and we have a minister of the Crown directing other members on how to spend their office budgets. Those members have no idea how it works. Let's not fall for any parlour tricks today. Let's instead focus on what we're here to discuss, and that's taxpayer dollars being spent on a contract that's very problematic for the Liberals. Let's deal with that. Once we've dealt with the amendment that's on the floor, Mr. Chair, I'd be pleased to move an amendment to the motion in support of Mr. Boulerice's suggestion that we deal with this issue expeditiously, potentially even concluding it this week.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1215)[English]I'm going to continue down the speaking list. If members don't want to speak to the amendment but would like to speak to something else, just indicate that you no longer desire to speak to it.Madame Lattanzio, you have the floor.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesPatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1215)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Formally, I'd like to say hello to my colleagues, whom I haven't seen in person in a while. It feels good to see each and every one of you here today.I'm not exactly sure why we're here, Mr. Chair. For the past few weeks since the House has—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1215)[English]Madame Lattanzio, we are speaking to the amendment. We are discussing the—PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelPatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1215)[English]Yes, I'm going to get to it. I'm speaking to the amendment.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1215)[English]It's to the amendment. Okay. Very good.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelPatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1215)[English] Thank you.I'm not sure why we are here today, and I'm going to get to the amendment. I think most of us are busy in our constituency offices, meeting our constituents and doing our work. Having sat on this committee, albeit as a new member, I've seen what has transpired in the last year and the witch hunts that have been brought about time and time again. We are essentially using taxpayers' dollars to go on these witch hunts, but even beyond that, we have mandated this committee to conduct investigations that are concurrent with those of other committees. Talk about a waste of time and talk about a waste of taxpayers' money.We've seen these attempts time and time again from the member from Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes while the government has been focused on delivering the vaccine and helping Canadians recover from this pandemic. However, we are here today. We have met solely in service of the Conservative ambitions many times over the course of the past year, but what clearly makes this time different from the last is the clear-cut fact that this committee doesn't even have the jurisdiction to investigate what Mr. Barrett is bringing forward.He spoke a few minutes ago, and I heard him, when he quoted our committee mandate in access to information, privacy and ethics, which is subparagraph 108(3)(h)(vii), I believe. I'm going to read it again for the benefit of our members here today. It says: the proposing, promoting, monitoring and assessing of initiatives which relate to access to information and privacy across all sectors of Canadian society and to ethical standards relating to public office holdersIn his motion, he wants to have Mr. Pitfield present here. Mr. Pitfield is not a public office holder, so it has become quite clear what road we are embarking on: This is basically not to fulfill the mandate of this committee but to go yet again on another witch hunt.Our committees are neither investigative nor judicial bodies. You cannot simply call this committee together and propose on a whim to undertake a political witch hunt because it happens to be a politically self-serving issue of the day. This place is governed by the rules and statutes that were constituted when this place first began sitting as the Parliament of Canada and established the long-running traditions by which we operate today. The amendment proposed by my colleague—and I won't read it, because she has—is, I think, the appropriate forum for this issue, if there is an issue. Again, the motion states quite clearly, almost makes an allegation, that there is a conflict of interest. It makes that allegation without even having any basis for it. I think the amendment would allow the committee to be able to investigate and do its work, and look at not just the Liberal database but also the CIMS. If we are to be transparent—and in the words of my colleague Dr. Carrie, we need to be transparent—then let's be transparent and let's do it with the other software being used.Anyone reading this section proposed by my colleague can clearly deduce that the Board of Internal Economy retains complete discretion to determine how members use parliamentary resources. There is no mention here of any other parliamentary committee in that section. In fact, it has long been an accepted fact that the board can handle these types of matters.I'm a little confused, Mr. Chair, as to why my colleague and his colleagues seem to think that we have the jurisdiction to even investigate this matter. The Board of Internal Economy itself, as we know, is composed of members of all recognized parties, and it is they who set out the rules and regulations by which we conduct ourselves. As to how members discharge the public funds they are entrusted with, the board has compiled the Members' Allowances and Services Manual, which lays out very clearly how we are to conduct ourselves as members in regard to our budgets, and how organizations like our research bureau, the whips' offices and the House leaders' offices should also conduct business with public funds.(1220) The rules and guidelines laid out in the members' services manual are very clear about how we should conduct ourselves in expending public funds. I believe that each and every member in the House, and indeed around this table, strives to ensure that they follow the rules as laid out in the said manual.When disputes have arisen in the past about the use of funds within our budget, these matters were taken up by the BOIE and handled accordingly. I think we have to ask ourselves, “What is different about this situation, such that we should diverge from past precedence in how these matters are handled?” The truth is that nothing is different—nothing but the political opportunity that is present for the opposition.I think we can all agree that we are here today in service to the constituents who elected us to represent them. It is a humbling job—especially when you are first elected, as I am—to know that you are responsible for advancing the best interests of your community in making decisions that will affect your family, friends and neighbours. As members of Parliament, we are required to help anyone in our community, no matter their political affiliation, whether they voted for us or not. Our service to our communities is to blind ourselves to partisan interests, and it should be so. In our duties as members of Parliament, we are often required to help our constituents access the many resources of the federal government and to triage the issues that arise out of that assistance. I think we can all agree that with roughly, more or less, 70,000 constituents in each of our respective ridings at a minimum, keeping orderly track of casework and requests for assistance is essential to completing our work as members. All parties here freely admit that we maintain constituent management systems to help us track requests for assistance from constituents and to ensure that we are able to provide all necessary assistance and follow up afterwards to ensure that casework has been handled to the constituents' satisfaction. A constituent management database is there to help us organize case files and track the progress of constituency issues or constituents' issues to ensure that they are followed up and completed properly. It is not out of the ordinary, nor is it inappropriate. It is an expected part of our job as parliamentarians. It is not out of the ordinary for parties to operate their constituent management databases on software similar to their electoral databases. Frankly, it makes sense. Members and staff are already familiar with electoral databases. Basing constituent management databases on the same user experience enables members and staff to quickly access and operate a user-friendly and familiar system.The important distinction here is the presence of a complete firewall between these databases to ensure that the information collected in an official capacity is not mixed with partisan databases. That's what's important here. Our caucus maintains the highest standards in this regard, as has been noted, and we work with the contractors who manage our databases to ensure that there is no crossover between the two.We are not the only party that operates this way. Both the NDP and the Conservatives do the same. The NDP openly admitted this on July 9 of last week in a Globe and Mail article that quoted a member who also sits on this committee. It's been a well-known fact for well over 15 years now that the Conservatives' CIMS database operates in a similar capacity as well. (1225)I'd like to quote the member as cited in The Globe and Mail: “I am not sure they are using it in a way that would actually contravene rules. It would have to be established that they are turning constituency data over for political purposes. Every political party has a data wing and a constituency wing.” The member from the NDP also said his party also uses the database provider Populus for political and campaign work, and a different version from the same company for constituency casework. “There is a pretty clear firewall” between the two services, he said.I find it very disingenuous that all of a sudden the Conservative members of this committee have decided that there is something inappropriate or nefarious with members' tracing casework with constituency and constituents, especially when they do it themselves. Ms. Shanahan has given you an example of how she's been contacted time and time again from an A1 account after a donation that she made many moons ago. Therefore, the question arises as to who's doing what and who's using what database.I think, Mr. Chair, in the words of my colleague Mr. Carrie this morning, let's be transparent. Let's examine everything, but this committee does not have the mandate to do so. I think it's appropriate that it be sent to BOIE. Thank you.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1230)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Fergus.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1230)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to start by thanking the member from Montreal for her well-reasoned comments. She made some excellent points.Certainly, in this day and age, every party on Parliament Hill uses databases so members can manage the work of their constituency and Hill offices, and that's perfectly fine. Having access to such tools means we can serve people effectively. These systems help us track who has contacted us and why, whether it's the first or fifth time we've been in contact, and if the issues are connected. It's perfectly normal.It's also perfectly normal for every party to use a database for partisan purposes, such as to remember who they have interacted with and in relation to what.However, there can be no mixing of the data from the two systems. The databases must not communicate with one another. They are required to operate as stand-alone systems—hence, the firewall, which as everyone knows, works without a hitch.I saw what the NDP member from northern Ontario had to say on the subject. He agreed, saying his party makes sure the two databases operate independently of one another. Our party does pretty much the exact same thing.This is an issue I'm quite familiar with. In a past life, long before I became a member of Parliament, I was the national director of the Liberal Party of Canada. I was the one who did the research and signed the contract with NGP VAN. I'm very proud of our work on that file. We really brought the Liberal Party into the modern age. Prior to that, all we had were paper-based lists; it was a bit makeshift. We made a decision to enter the 21st century by adopting a highly flexible IT system. Not only does it offer a considerable degree of flexibility, but it also has an excellent track record for ensuring a separation between certain data.It would be preposterous to have a system without a firewall. If that were the case, the company's reputation would be ruined and no one would do business with it. Use of the system isn't limited to Canada; it's a well-honed system that has long been used in the United States. Personally, I think it's the best system out there, but I imagine the Conservatives would say their system is better than ours.Mr. Barrett, you mentioned CivicTrack or Softchoice.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1230)[Translation]I'm the only one who uses it.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.GregFergusHull—AylmerGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1230)[Translation]It's only you. I see.I imagine the Conservative Party of Canada is proud of CIMS, its system, and the NDP is surely proud of its system, Populus. I commend both parties.What worries me, as Ms. Lattanzio and Mrs. Shanahan have already pointed out, is that this smells of a witch hunt.Mr. Barrett is acting like he's being entirely reasonable by saying he would support holding just one two-hour meeting with witnesses, but we've heard that line numerous times over the past 15 months. Every time someone appears, they mention another name, and suddenly the committee has to probe further, even if it's not at all relevant. We have to invite someone else, and so it goes.Forgive me, then, if I'm a bit hesitant to go along with this.(1235)[English]I've been down that rabbit hole before.[Translation]Even if you think I'm wrong, Mr. Chair, I know I stand on solid footing when it comes to the role of this committee versus that of the Board of Internal Economy. I won't repeat what my fellow members have already said, since they did a good job of articulating this committee's responsibilities. They also pointed out that another committee is entrusted with examining the spending and activities—past and current—of members and their constituency offices, and that committee is the Board of Internal Economy.No expense considered to be invalid is authorized without the board's approval. Occasionally, people can make mistakes, and the consequences can be quite serious. The Board of Internal Economy has been known to make some very weighty decisions to reassure Canadians that the spending of parliamentarians, specifically, members of the House of Commons, complies with the rules. The Parliament of Canada Act is crystal clear about the exclusive authority of the Board of Internal Economy. Subsection 52.6(1) says and I quote:52.6 (1) The Board has the exclusive authority to determine whether any previous, current or proposed use by a member of the House of Commons of any funds, goods, services or premises made available to that member for the carrying out of parliamentary functions is or was proper, given the discharge of the parliamentary functions of members of the House of Commons, including whether any such use is or was proper having regard to the intent and purpose of the by-laws made under subsection 52.5(1).That is the body that should be examining this issue.Mrs. Shanahan's amendment shows that we are prepared to support Mr. Barrett's motion, which, according to him, was prompted by a media report. That is why he feels we should examine the issue. Actually, Mr. Barrett is signalling that it was four news articles. Thank you for correcting me.I believe the four articles—well, three of them, at least—refer to the systems used by the Liberals, the Conservatives and the NDP. Unfortunately, though, Mr. Barrett's motion pertains solely to one party. Mrs. Shanahan made the point that we should broaden the motion to cover not only what the Liberal members are doing, but also what the members of the official opposition are doing. The issues raised in the news reports are actually of great interest to Canadians.I hope my fellow members will allow these issues to be referred to the Board of Internal Economy, which, as a committee of the House, could look into everything and report its findings to all members.I think that's the best way forward. That is why the amendment was moved and why I, personally, will support it.If we stick to the motion as moved, we will fall into the same trap that we unfortunately fell into before. Mr. Chair, I know you came a long way to be at this meeting in person, and I certainly appreciate the efforts of every committee member to attend this meeting. No one wants to waste time, but we have to tell it like it is. We have to set the record straight, and that's why I feel so strongly about doing things the right way. That means referring the matter to the committee responsible for examining the previous, current and proposed expenditures incurred by members and their offices. The committee with that responsibility is the Board of Internal Economy.I can well imagine what would happen if we did not support the amendment and the motion was adopted unamended. I can hear it now. I would bet any amount of money that, as soon as the witness mentioned someone's name, members would probably want to invite that person to appear before the committee. It would be a name here, a name there; we would have to keep inviting people and so on. I've seen this show before, and honestly, the reviews weren't good.It's time to move on. We should be smart about how we use our time and energy—what we focus our efforts on. I think the committee members should really support the amendment and refer this matter to the proper authority.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1245)[English] Go ahead, Mr. Carrie.GregFergusHull—AylmerColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1245)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to thank colleagues again for coming together to address this extremely important matter, which seems to be getting convoluted again by the Liberals.Mr. Chair, if we can be very clear here, this is about allegations that a minister of the Crown was directing a contract involving taxpayers' funds to advance the interests of the Liberal Party of Canada and the minister's partisan interests. That's what this is about.I think everybody around here understands the Board of Internal Economy and what it does, but maybe people listening in don't. The Board of Internal Economy has no jurisdiction to rule on a minister on a conflict of interest. Frankly, it works on consensus building. We know that if the Liberals get their way here, they would just shut it down there, just as they're trying to shut down this committee today.This is very straightforward, Mr. Chair. As Mr. Barrett said, he is very open to Mr. Boulerice's very reasonable time frame—one meeting, two hours. That doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary. What really bothers me is that we hear the Liberal members saying, “Oh, well, if we hear something that is suspicious here, the opposition is going to want to call another witness”, or this or that. Of course, Mr. Chair. That's our job. That's why Canadians have us here.We are going into an election campaign. The Liberals are going out this summer. We know they don't want to be here; they want to be out there. They want to be handing out money here, handing out money there, with just big smiles everywhere. They don't want to be talking about corruption and ethical issues again, and a Prime Minister being with Mr. Pitfield, for heaven's sake, who was on that illegal vacation he took. They don't want to talk about that. They don't want Canadians to even be thinking about it.Mr. Chair, I don't want to talk too long here. I opened up and I explained what this is about. I think I explained what the Liberals are trying to do again, which is to filibuster to keep this issue from getting out. Frankly, the more they push back, the more I'm concerned. I think we do have to make sure that Canadians understand that it's about a conflict of interest by a minister. When these questions are being asked, it's our job as opposition MPs to be very reasonable. We're not asking people to spend the entire summer here, but just two hours to get to some very simple answers. If it's going to be open and transparent, those answers will come quite quickly.I think, Mr. Chair, we have about 10 minutes left. I think the meeting's going to be talked out. That's all I have to say.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1245)[English]Mr. Dong is next.ColinCarrieOshawaHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1245)[English] Thank you very much, Chair.I don't want to spend a lot of time talking. I think Mr. Barrett spoke about eight to 10 minutes, so if you give me a signal at the eight-minute mark, I'll wrap up. I don't want to speak more than the opposition members.Chair, I've been listening respectfully and carefully to all members of this committee today. I thought what Ms. Shanahan said in her opening remarks, before she moved a motion, was very important: It was about the mandate of this committee. If we are talking about questioning the integrity of MPs as they perform jobs in their capacity as public elected members, we're not talking about just a few members; we're talking about the entire Liberal caucus. I think we should look at the process. What's the code of conduct? That falls under the scope of the Board of Internal Economy. Determining whether or not the members obey these codes of conduct, I think, is its job.I understand that you said committees don't have the mandate or don't have the power to tell another committee what it needs to do. Simply put, I'm sure there are Conservative members on the Board of Internal Economy. They can, according to the result of today's debate, move a motion over there to start an investigation. I think that's much better than having a debate here. We are making a lot of assumptions that members are using public dollars, taxpayers' dollars, to somehow do partisan stuff.What is within the scope of this committee is privacy. That could be expanded to the privacy of our constituents. I think that needs to be looked at.I have heard members from the Conservative Party say that they don't use public dollars to somehow fund this kind of system. I'm very interested in knowing how these systems are being paid for and how constituents' information is being used. I know from Ms. Lattanzio on this side that there's a very effective firewall being built around individuals' data, around what's being accessed from the MPs' offices in terms of their constituents' information. Privacy is very important, and I've made that very clear to the staff in my office.Speaking of wasting taxpayers' dollars, I want to remind the committee and the public watching that I've been here at this committee since day one of the 43rd Parliament, and to my recollection we've completed only two studies: those on WE Charity and Pornhub. It's a public taxpayer-funded fishing expedition. Our WE Charity study and investigation was parallel to an investigation done by an officer of the House. The Integrity Commissioner did an investigation.As well, I want to point out that this meeting was not scheduled. It's not a regular meeting. It's a special meeting that's been called. We see all the support staff, all the wonderful translators and the clerk here. That's all on taxpayers' dollars. I have to question the efficiency of our committee.Mr. Barrett, in his debate on the amendment, mentioned that he's quite happy to be in front of the committee and to talk about the practices of his office. I applaud his transparency and, quite honestly, bravery. Sitting in front of a committee and disclosing information, which we all know is to the public, is not an easy thing to do.I have to point out some quick research. (1250) The company he mentioned, CivicTrack, which he uses, is a software provider that is owned by Momentuum BPO Inc. Its president is Matt Yeatman, who has donated $12,556 to various Conservative EDAs and campaigns between 2008 and 2019. According to the public record, another software company that he uses, which is online in his expenditure report, is called Softchoice. It is owned by Vince De Palma, who has made multiple $1,000 contributions as donations to the Conservative Party. I think there is merit to the amendment, in that if we're going to make assumptions that a lot of members don't know the rules and their integrity is being questioned, we should open up the questioning so we can improve the process, although, as I've said before, I don't believe that this falls under the mandate of this committee.That leads to my final point. When I read the original motion, I found that it wasn't typical. Usually I'll see in a motion that we will refer the matter to the House and require a response from the government or require a response from, in this case, the Board of Internal Economy or whatever. We have to have some recommendation in the study; otherwise, what's the point of the study? I have not seen that, which leads me to question the timing of this proposed study. Repeatedly the Conservative members have talked about being on the eve of an election. I haven't heard that the writ has dropped. What I know is that a motion was passed in the House by all members that we don't want an election until it's safe. I haven't heard that call. They want to deal with this expeditiously. Do you know what that means to me? They want to pull a fast one. They want to pull a fast one against the Liberal members, on the eve of an election— Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1255)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1255)[English]—to gain a partisan advantage. That's what they're doing here.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ColinCarrieOshawaChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1255)[English]On a point of order, go ahead, Mr. Carrie.HanDongDon Valley NorthColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1255)[English]Mr. Chair, from a parliamentary language standpoint, “to pull a fast one”.... I think everybody around the table here knows that the Liberals want to refer this matter to the Board of Internal Economy because there are five Liberal members over there. There is the chair. All have paid Pitfield taxpayers' dollars for these services.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1255)[English]We are getting into debate, but—ColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1255)[English]I find that unparliamentary. We're just doing our job.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1255)[English]—I encourage Mr. Dong to maintain parliamentary language during his debate.ColinCarrieOshawaHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1255)[English]Thank you, Chair. As I said, I haven't seen the signal, so I probably haven't hit the eight-minute mark. I'll wrap up soon.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1255)[English]I'm not signalling.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1255)[English]You know the time. Okay. Thank you, Chair. I appreciate the break.You know what? That was my final point. What I see here today is the Conservatives trying to create something out of nothing, again on the taxpayers' back. I just want to remind everybody that every minute we spend here is quite a privilege to me, but at the same time I'm very mindful of the supportive work that is required for this committee.With that, I'll cede the floor. I hear that the Conservative member, Mr. Barrett, is willing to support the amendment and say that we're transparent, that we're clean. I'd be happy to—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]No, I don't support the amendment.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1255)[English]Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were willing to testify in front of the committee and therefore willing to support the amendment. MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1255)[English]No.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1255)[English]You see how sometimes—MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1255)[English]Okay, colleagues, just direct your comments through the chair.Mr. Dong, were you finished or...?HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1255)[English]I'm about to wrap up.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1255)[English]Okay.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1255)[English]You can see how assumptions can sometimes be misinterpreted. I interpreted it, certainly, as Mr. Barrett being willing to support the amendment.To all my opposition colleagues, I hope you would consider supporting the amendment. If indeed at this committee we're doing a service to Canadians to make sure that members are performing according to standards, why don't we open it up to all? Why are we focusing only on Liberal members? I take great offence. In the WE Charity study, you can say that you targeted the Prime Minister, his family, private companies and civil servants. Now with this motion, I think the original intent is to target Liberal MPs—incumbents, in your words—on the eve of an election.Thank you, Chair.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1255)[English] Thank you.Mr. Boulerice is next.HanDongDon Valley NorthAlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-Patrie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1255)[Translation]Mr. Chair, despite the Liberal members' claims that they want the committee to use its time wisely and that they don't want to talk and talk, it's obvious that they continue to go on and on. We are almost out of time, Mr. Chair.I think Mrs. Shanahan's amendment has merit in that I agree with the substance and overall intent. The Board of Internal Economy can be an effective mechanism, but it can also be a black hole. If you get too close, it sucks you in and you're never to be seen from again.Mainly, I think the amendment is premature. I want to come back to the spirit of the original motion. Let's hear from the witnesses, ask questions and do some checking. Then, if the matter needs to be referred to the Board of Internal Economy, we can make that informed decision.Mr. Fergus said some compelling things earlier. He said that the databases had to be stand-alone systems, that they did not communicate with one another. Unfortunately, we have to take his word for it now, so let's bring the people who have the information before the committee, let's look into the situation and let's do our job. If it turns out we need to involve the Board of Internal Economy, we can do so at that point.Although I agree with the substance of the amendment, I feel to adopt it now would be to get ahead of ourselves.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[English]Thank you.Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor again.AlexandreBoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1300)[English]Did Madame Gaudreau have her...?ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[English]Had you—BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1300)[Translation][Inaudible—Editor] I'm waiting.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1300)[Translation]Ms. Gaudreau can have the floor, but I would like to go after her.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[English]Oh, pardon me.Please go ahead, Madame Gaudreau.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1300)[Translation]Mr. Chair, it's one o'clock. What happens next? Do we keep going a bit longer? I have some motions. I don't need 12 or 22 minutes. I can be extremely quick about it, but I have some comments afterwards. ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[English]Okay. I'm not sensing that anybody wants to end the meeting yet. I mean, there may be a desire to end it after a certain number of things, but there seems to be an inclination to continue to grow the speaking list. I have the obligation to allow for members to continue to speak until they no longer want to speak.I have Mrs. Shanahan and Mr. MacKinnon on the speaking list, and Madame Gaudreau, and Mr. Fergus apparently wants to get back on the list.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1300)[Translation]I just want to flag that the interpretation isn't working for Ms. Gaudreau. Perhaps you can—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[English]Pardon me?GregFergusHull—AylmerMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1300)[Translation][Inaudible—Editor]ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[English]I'm sorry. I can't hear you.Go ahead, Mr. Fergus, on a point of order.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1300)[English] On a point of order, I'd just note that Madame Gaudreau said that she wasn't receiving translation. Perhaps you could repeat yourself so that she can understand what you just said.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[Translation]All right. My apologies.[English]Let's hope that we can get the translation going. Right now I have a growing speaking list. Members are indicating that they continue to want to speak. My obligation is to allow for members to speak. I don't know when we'll be done. I think it will be left to members' discretion as to when they want to allow for the votes to happen. When nobody wants to speak, then we'll move to adjournment.I currently have Mrs. Shanahan and Mr. MacKinnon on the list. Madame Gaudreau is on the list as the third speaker, unless Madame Shanahan was saying that she'd prefer that Madame Gaudreau go first.GregFergusHull—AylmerBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1300)[English]No, I'll say a few words.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1300)[English]Very good. We'll continue with the speaking list.Go ahead, Mrs. Shanahan.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1300)[English] Thank you very much, Chair. This is very able quarterbacking with the group we have before us. We are missing one person here, so in the spirit of invoking the ethics committee in all its glory and so on, I want to quote Mr. Angus, who was interviewed for that Globe and Mail article. I think it will bring a little bit more raison d'être to why we think it's appropriate for this matter to be transferred to the Board of Internal Economy. Mr. Angus said, when he was asked, that he's not convinced the Liberals are abusing spending rules, which is nice to hear from Mr. Angus, and went on to say, “I am not sure they are using it in a way that would actually contravene rules. It would have to be established that they are turning constituency data over for political purposes. Every political party has a data wing and a constituency wing.” I think that is the key: the fact that the data itself, as we have learned in other studies, is an important resource. Not only is it an issue whether we use a House device or premises or Hill staff or constituency staff; the fact that the data that is collected in the course of our day-to-day constituency work can be used and turned over to the political party in question for use for election purposes is of deep concern, I think, to any member of this Parliament. That is why I think Mr. Angus, in his always very insightful way, gets to the heart of the issue. It is that on the one hand, there is the constituency work that we do day to day, the very important contact work and policy work and casework. We all know what we and our staff do every day. That needs to be managed. We each have between 70,000 and 120,000 constituents. I don't know about you, but even though I'm more of a paper person, I need software to handle that work. It's certainly well within the budget of any member to have software, and it makes sense not to have each single member ordering software, because that's expensive. No, you order one software package that works for all members of a group, which in our parliamentary system are caucus groups. That's what we have access to. I'm certainly happy with the service that's provided.It's a completely different thing when we're talking about election purposes, voter ID purposes, donor purposes and so on. That is precious data, personal data, and we know we deal with people's most personal data when we're talking about immigration files, passports, Revenue Canada and the myriad things we deal with in the course of our constituent duties. That is important, but it should not—never, ever—be mixed with election-purpose data, which is what we do when we're on a campaign, when we're identifying our supporters and we're going out to meet them. That is the case with our software. We're not so sure it's the case with the privately paid-for software used by the Conservative Party, which is run by Conservative donors with individual links with members and members of the leader's staff. We have a lot more we can say about that, but in the interest of time I will leave it there and yield the floor to Mr. MacKinnon, I believe. Thank you.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1305)[English]Before we go to Mr. MacKinnon, we've been going for a couple of hours now. We'll take a seven-minute break to allow the staff a break and then we will call the meeting back to order.The meeting is suspended.(1305)(1315)BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1315)[English] We're going to call this meeting back to order.We have Mr. MacKinnon next on the list. Go ahead, Mr. MacKinnon.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1315)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.As the honourable member Mr. Barrett mentioned, I am indeed new to the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Unfortunately, the committee is preceded by its reputation, thanks to some of the comments made by members across the way before I joined the committee.I want to piggyback on what my fellow member Mrs. Shanahan said. She spoke about what the committee's responsibilities were and which body had the authority to examine this issue if need be.The matter clearly falls under the authority of the Board of Internal Economy. For the benefit of my fellow members, I would like to cite the bylaws.The Parliament of Canada Act refers to the “exclusive authority” of the Board of Internal Economy, at subsection 52.6(1). I repeat, “exclusive authority”.52.6 (1) The Board has the exclusive authority to determine whether any previous, current or proposed use by a member of the House of Commons of any funds, goods, services or premises made available to that member for the carrying out of parliamentary functions is or was proper, given the discharge of the parliamentary functions of members of the House of Commons, including whether any such use is or was proper having regard to the intent and purpose of the by-laws made under subsection 52.5(1).Obviously, what we have here is an exercise in extreme partisanship and politicking. The member is trying to circumvent the committee's tradition, to say nothing of the best traditions of the House and this institution. Unfortunately, we are dealing with a Conservative opposition hell-bent on disparaging those involved in the public life of their country.I want to repeat what my fellow members said about our use of the software in question. Formally, unequivocally and in writing, a clear separation exists between our use of software to carry out constituency work and our use of software to perform partisan work, in other words, activities in support of the Liberal Party of Canada.[English]I did note with interest the very insightful intervention of my friend Mr. Dong, who pointed out that the Conservative Party and Conservative members utilize software that is probably very similar, software furnished by an enterprise. This is not to minimize their involvement in public life. Supporting public institutions is a good thing, which makes me wonder why Mr. Barrett continues to engage in these activities. Donors of tens of thousands of dollars provide the very software that Mr. Barrett alluded to, that he confirmed and revealed to this committee that he uses in the course of his daily activities. That software is provided by a company called Momentuum, whose CEO has made tens of thousands of dollars of contributions to the Conservative Party of Canada and its various entities.(1320) The president of another provider that is confirmed in Mr. Barrett's proactive disclosure, Softchoice, has been a donor to the Conservative Party of Canada on several occasions, including for the Lisa Raitt leadership campaign. That too has been, I think, pretty easily tracked down.To take it to its logical extension, Mr. Chair, in this Parliament Mr. Barrett, it must be said, has dug a lot of dry holes. He's like the Death Valley well driller. There has been a lot of activity, Mr. Chair, a lot of moving around, without much being dug up there. As an ethics critic, I think he has been shown to be—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1320)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.StevenMacKinnonGatineauChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]I'm recognizing, on a point of order, Mr. Barrett.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1320)[English]Chair, I was just wondering if finding Liberal finance minister Bill Morneau guilty of breaking ethics laws was one of those dry wells Mr. MacKinnon was talking about. I just wasn't sure.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]I think that's a point of debate, but there will be opportunities, I think, for that.Mr. MacKinnon, we are speaking to the amendment.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1320)[English]I think Mr. Barrett has shown himself to be pretty sensitive. I understand that he—having worked so hard and being governed by such personal animus towards this government, its leader and many of its members—would be frustrated that after two years his efforts have yielded so little, but I digress, Mr. Chair.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1320)[English]On another point of order, Chair—StevenMacKinnonGatineauChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]Go ahead on a point of order, Mr. Barrett.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1320)[English]I'm wondering if Mr. MacKinnon could quantify how many findings of guilt by the Ethics Commissioner, under the act and the code, would be substantive enough for him as the opposition ethics critic, or if one is okay, or....Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]I believe that's debate.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1320)[English]Okay.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1320)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, we'll ask you to direct your comments through the chair in speaking to Ms. Shanahan's amendment.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1320)[English]Mr. Chair, I don't know what has occurred to engender such extreme sensitivity on the part of the member. Mr. Brown—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1320)[English]That would be serial law-breaking by Liberals.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1320)[English] Mr. Brown, his predecessor, engaged in no such activity, I would note. Mr. Barrett is, of course—as we all are—free to exercise his prerogatives as a member of Parliament.Here we are today. Here we are in a committee room on Parliament Hill, meeting on something that I've just pretty clearly outlined is not within the competence or the scope of this committee's lines of inquiry. It's something that, again, has been established pretty clearly as being outside the parameters of what Mr. Barrett should be preoccupied with. It's also very clearly, Mr. Chair, something that every party does in service of the members of Parliament that it has in Parliament by supplying technologies that equip us, help us and train us to serve our constituents in the most efficient and best manner possible.As a result, Mr. Chair, I am perplexed as to why there's this mass mobilization of MPs, on an emergency basis, back to Ottawa during the month of July to explore yet another of Mr. Barrett's fantasies driven by his personal animus toward the Prime Minister and toward members of this government. I don't understand that, Mr. Chair. It is not becoming. It does not befit the honourable members of the House of Commons or of this committee to act in such ways. However, if Mr. Barrett wishes to pursue this line of inquiry, then I think it only fair that we pursue the line of inquiry to its logical conclusion and examine those Conservative donors, who are clearly very wealthy Conservative donors, as shown by their tens of thousands of dollars of contributions to the party. It's only fair that we examine links between them, the software they provide and the possible population of Conservative Party databases.Madam Shanahan described her experience in trying at all costs to extricate herself from this web, this data trap she's been in for the last 10 years. I think it might befit this committee, in its line of inquiry, to inquire as to how that could possibly occur. It may befit this committee, in its line of inquiry, to ask the leader of Mr. Barrett's party about contracts using parliamentary funds that are let to members of his leadership campaign team, those people who volunteered, presumably, or maybe were compensated, to work on Mr. O'Toole's leadership campaign and now find themselves to be contractors to the Office of the Leader of the Opposition or the Conservative Resource Group, which of course are both entities that are funded with the tax dollars of hard-working Canadians. It may behoove us to look into those ties and those connections, because some of those people provide software consulting services or IT consulting services or the like. As you know, Mr. Chair, these things get a little fuzzy. As far as we can tell, some people who were engaged in partisan software management—maybe for Mr. O'Toole's leadership campaign, maybe for the Conservative Party of Canada—are now providing IT and database and other consulting services to a public entity, which is the Office of the Leader of the Opposition or the Conservative Research Group. That, of course, may also warrant the prolonged gaze of the members of this committee if we are to be logical and consistent in applying the very rigorous tests that Mr. Barrett has laid out for the members of this committee.(1325) Mr. Chair, I think it's important that we remember all of these facts. It's important we remember that what we're really doing here is indulging Mr. Barrett's personal animus and hatred for the Prime Minister, as well as that of the Conservative Party. We're calling back members of Parliament from all over the country to indulge that—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1325)[English]Chair, on a point of order, I would say that Mr. MacKinnon is invoking some highly inflammatory language with respect to his assumption about how I feel about another member of the House. While I couldn't agree less on matters of policy with Mr. Trudeau, the Right Honourable Prime Minister, I have never, in this committee, demonstrated anything other than a respectful tone, though members opposite may not like the questions that I have asked. It does a disservice to all members of this committee and to Mr. MacKinnon himself to use such inflammatory language. He is certainly entitled to his opinion, but I don't believe that type of language with respect to a characterization of how one member perceives another member is appropriate in this venue.StevenMacKinnonGatineauChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1325)[English]I'd encourage Mr. MacKinnon to work in a way that not only reflects our respect for one another but also addresses the issue at hand. Mr. Barrett was not involved, I don't think, in the drafting of Ms. Shanahan's amendment. That is currently what's up for debate.Mr. MacKinnon, I'd suggest and ask that you move to debate with regard to the amendment.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Clearly, I am happy to keep debating the amendment by my esteemed colleague Mrs. Shanahan.She gave the committee a very constructive way forward—the only way forward, really—refer the matter to the Board of Internal Economy. If Mr. Barrett likes, I could reread the mandate of the Board of Internal Economy for his benefit. The matter before us today is without a doubt under the exclusive authority of the Board of Internal Economy.Let me assure the Conservative members who are following Mr. Barrett's lead and helping him carry out his personal agenda: all contracts entered into by Liberal members or by the Liberal Research Bureau are duly approved, in accordance with the rules of the House of Commons and Parliament of Canada. Those contracts are performed in the context Mrs. Shanahan described; in other words, there is a complete and utter separation between the system data we use to carry out constituency work and the data contained in any other system, regardless of who designed it.I want to conclude by saying that we disapprove of this witch hunt. We disapprove of today's meeting, which was apparently called to fulfill the personal wishes and agenda of Mr. Barrett and his fellow Conservative members. I encourage the members of the other parties not to join Mr. Barrett on his periodic escapades to dig up dirt. He has been trying to do precisely that since the beginning of this Parliament. It reflects poorly on all parliamentarians and on the House of Commons, I might add. Mr. Barrett's relentlessness is not flattering to the institutions of Parliament. I would say that has repeatedly been verified by various commissioners, who are officers of Parliament.On that note, Mr. Chair, I will yield the floor.I urge the committee members to support my fellow member's amendment. My hope is that we can put an end to the Conservative Party's latest antics to dig up dirt.Thank you.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English] Thank you.Madame Gaudreau is next.StevenMacKinnonGatineauMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1330)[Translation]Do you have anyone else on the speaking list after me, Mr. Chair?ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Yes, there is one. Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1330)[Translation]All right, then.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1330)[English]Madam Shanahan is on the list again.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1330)[Translation]It is now 1:35 p.m. The meeting has been going on since 11 a.m. this morning. I'm just taking the time to get myself set up, since this is my first speech.Just like you, we have activities in our ridings. The people who are listening to us today have the opportunity to see us in person and see that we are hard at work in Ottawa. Yes, we are working. I should give them a bit of background about what is going on, however.Under Standing Order 106(4), we can sign a written request to call a meeting when, unfortunately, we are unable to obtain certain answers on a given issue. As indicated in the wording of the request, the reason why I supported my Conservative colleagues in making this request is that, unfortunately, I could not get the answers to my questions.During the last parliamentary session, I was constantly amazed at how much room was left for different interpretations. In life, I have always been told to get to the bottom of things to make sure whether what is being said is true or false.In the last hour and a half, according to what has been put on the table—and this is a perception, I want to emphasize that—there seemed to be nothing wrong, nothing to worry about. We told ourselves from the outset that everything was perfect, that this meeting would be so uncomplicated, for once, that we could take the time left to us to work in our ridings and meet the people we have only seen virtually all year. Personally, I found that reassuring. I thought it would be a simple meeting, since the colleagues opposite had absolutely nothing to worry about. I thought it would be a two-hour meeting to shed some light on the subject of the written request made under Standing Order 106(4). We were asked what was the point of doing this at this time, between two parliamentary sessions. In fact, the work is still going on. The House of Commons is actually open. I'm very happy that we can see each other in person, that feels good. I was told that I was dancing behind the screen. What we're experiencing right now is a bit like what I have experienced. I was introduced to this along with all of you. For hours and hours, we have heard speeches that often ran counter to the proposals before the committee, just to kill time. We keep hearing people saying we don't want to waste time, but we are wasting time. They say they want to get to the bottom of this, but they don't want to allow us the opportunity to ask questions.In fact, what we should be asking is why things are so complicated today. Anyone who has nothing to hide or fear should be willing to go ahead and get to the bottom of things. Sadly, someone made a speech saying that they felt threatened. That's a defence mechanism. I will say to the people who are listening to us that this is perfectly normal, this is what happens in committee.However, here is what it's like in real life. It's summertime. We are not sure what's coming up. According to my schedule, I will be back with you on September 20, in person. That will be very exciting. In the meantime, I don't want to repeat what we did last summer. I am convinced that none of you want to do that.Some people feel that if you open the door once, you'll have to open it the next time too. The proof is in the pudding: We have already opened the door, based on an item we had. There were no worries, everything was perfect, we were going to meet the following week. There may be other proposals; it depends on what people want to do.Trust and transparency issues fall under the purview of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. We are an oversight committee. Every committee has its strength. Ours is very considerable, and equally important.It is easy to say that we are trying to look for dirt and dig where there is nothing to dig up. Beyond all that, we are demonstrating something to people. Essentially, technically, the results shouldn't be a big surprise. We simply saw, and I will reiterate, that 95% of the Liberal MPs paid $30,000 to Data Sciences and the Liberal Party paid $1 million to NGP VAN. Accordingly, we want to ask the founder of Data Sciences some questions. If things look good, this will be over; if they don't, then something else will happen. People need to know what's going on.(1335)People say time is precious. I'm sure some of my colleagues have meetings scheduled in their ridings in an hour. I myself have one at 5 p.m. People want to see us. They also want to see that we're not wasting our time. Well, we have just shown them that we did waste our time. At this point, I think that by 2 p.m. we will have finished hearing from everyone who wanted to speak. We are ready. Everyone has spoken. We all know how the vote will turn out. Let's vote on the amendment. Soon, when we feel comfortable and we are in agreement, we can vote on the motion. Why should we do this? I think that the clerk has the right to enjoy her summer, too. We can do our work and our planning efficiently and effectively.You know where I stand. We still agree on the basic wording. The work will resume on September 20. There will be requests then, but we will be able to stay focused. Thank you.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English] Thank you.Mrs. Shanahan, I have you on the speaking list, followed by Mr. Fergus. Please go ahead.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1340)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I wasn't planning to speak, but I will. There is a reason why we are meeting today. Obviously, we did not request this meeting. We are here to explain why our committee is not the right place to consider this issue. The committee does not have a mandate to investigate conflict of interest. Other people have already looked into that and into other cases. That work is done by the commissioners, that's their job. When the individuals involved are members of Parliament, it is Parliament's Board of Internal Economy that looks into everything.That is why I proposed the amendment. Everyone here must recognize the reason why it is the Board of Internal Economy that deals with these matters. Members of all parties sit on the board, and things are done in a confidential manner. From what I have heard, since these meetings are not held in public, the exchanges between members of the various political parties and the MPs involved can be very frank and honest.We still have the same goal, which is to ensure that our democracy remains based on political parties and groups. We are not in small villages where everyone can represent themselves, far from it. Citizens rely on political parties to represent them. As we know full well, in our system we do not vote for a prime minister but for MPs, each of whom represents a political party. In most cases, voters hope that the leader of the political party of the candidate they voted for will become Prime Minister. I also understand that sometimes the leader makes it very clear that they don't want to take power, but I think they have an interest elsewhere. I do not want to veer too far off topic, but as we know, the leader of the Bloc Québécois was previously involved in politics in Quebec. It is certainly very interesting to make a career in another level of government to then come back to Quebec and perhaps even lead the province. Why not? It's because we are in the public eye, right?The parliamentary resources that we all use are very important. If they are being used for smear campaigns here and there—and I'm talking about all parties in general—the public needs to know that. Every MP has more than one office and hires three, four or five people to work there. Some may have as many as ten staffers, some working part-time. It is important for people to know what these staffers do. Constituents would not want to find out that employees are being hired for purposes other than the work being done in the riding with respect to federal policy and federal cases. People need to understand exactly what work is being done with their tax dollars.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1340)[Translation]On a point of order, Mr. Chair.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English] I'm recognizing Madame Gaudreau on a point of order.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1340)[Translation]What my colleague is saying is very interesting, but I'm trying to see how it is linked to the amendment we are debating. Maybe she can explain to me what the link is or actually arrive at her conclusion, because I'm having trouble following her.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1340)[English]Yes, I appreciate it. I think that's a point of order with regard to relevance. I was going to just encourage members.... I know there's been a fair bit of debate that's been outside the scope of the amendment. Members have now had the floor multiple times. If members have run out of things to say on the amendment, I would suggest that we go to a vote. Then members could speak to the motion, as amended or not. That might be the more appropriate time to continue with these ongoing debates.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1345)[Translation]Actually, I have something else to say about the amendment.[English]Just to bring the point home—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]Is it on the amendment?BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1345)[English]—on the amendment, the Board of Internal Economy is the place to discuss all of this use of Hill resources and parties have a great interest that it be done in the Board of Internal Economy, but you know what? We could do it in public.[Translation]Honestly, I have some very interesting things before me that could well be looked at. I hope that Robert Fife is listening, because he might find some interesting things here. We can certainly make them all public.I think this is the first time you have heard me talk like this, because I'm usually the quiet, unassuming lady who tries to work within the rules and the mandates of the committees. However, in this case, I feel that this exercise exceeds the limits of the committee. Some of the members of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics here seem to think that they can use our committee as a forum to make all kinds of allegations and to summon citizens who are not even part of our political world. They are politically engaged citizens, and they have every right to engage in politics. In fact, we encourage them to do so. On the other hand, there seems to be a perception that this committee serves as a forum or a kind of star chamber, as they have in the United States. I don't think anyone wants to apply that model in Canada.To put it simply, what could come out of that would be very interesting.I will close with that. I think we're here precisely to defend parliamentary tradition and procedure and to uphold people's confidence in the political system. The proper place to study this matter is the Board of Internal Economy. If certain members prefer to do this in the public arena, then we will be opening a can of worms, won't we?With all due respect to my colleagues, I think there are other ways to deal with this issue. That is what concerns us. My amendment outlines the way to do this.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]Thank you.We're turning to Mr. Fergus, the next speaker on the amendment.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1345)[English]Mr. Chair, I listened very attentively to my colleagues, especially Madame Gaudreau. I think I might have a way to bring this to an end that would be satisfactory to Mr. Barrett and other members of this committee. I was wondering if I could ask the chair for his indulgence for two minutes. It's to have a two-minute pause so that I could pursue this idea to see if there's support among all the parties for a way forward.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]I'm not opposed to that. If there's no opposition, I will suspend the meeting for a period of five minutes. I'll give you an additional three minutes if you're able to come up with a solution.GregFergusHull—AylmerGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1345)[English]That's very generous of you.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1345)[English]I'll suspend for five minutes. The meeting's suspended.(1345)(1355)GregFergusHull—AylmerChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1355)[English] I call this meeting back to order.Mr. Fergus, we'll go back to you.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1355)[English]Mr. Chair, could we allow the member from the NDP to also return?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: [Translation]Oh, I see he's back.Mr. Chair, we have been debating this issue for quite some time now, and I really want to find a way to move forward and resolve this.I just scribbled down a possible solution. I don't have it in both languages, but, if I may, I will draft it in our two languages. I would just like to outline the gist of it for you.I would like to hear what all my colleagues from the other parties think of it. If we had consent here, Mrs. Shanahan could withdraw her amendment. We would then get back to Mr. Barrett's motion, to which we would propose amendments.I would suggest removing from Mr. Barrett's motion all the words after “media reports” up to—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.GregFergusHull—AylmerChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1355)[English]Okay. I apologize for interrupting, but we are dealing with the amendment currently. Before we can move another amendment, we have to dispose of the amendment.There's been a suggestion, I think, to have unanimous consent to withdraw it, if Mrs. Shanahan desires to withdraw it.Mr. Fergus.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.GregFergusHull—AylmerGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1355)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I would just like to clarify the reason why we want to withdraw the amendment, to make sure everyone is clear on that.We want to withdraw the amendment so we can then amend Mr. Barrett's motion. Right now the motion requires that “the committee undertake a study on conflicts of interest relating to taxpayer-funded contracts with Data Sciences Inc; and that the committee do invite Mr. Tom Pitfield to appear”. We want to replace all this wording with other wording that would require the committee to examine how each of the recognized political parties in the House of Commons uses databases in its MP's offices on Parliament Hill and in their ridings, as well as within the party itself. The new wording would also require that the committee invite representatives of each party's research offices to “appear and testify before the committee”. We would keep all the rest of the wording in Mr. Barrett's motion but add that this study would be limited to one committee meeting. That is then the overall idea. I know that all my colleagues from other parties are consulting or have already consulted their colleagues to see whether they will be supporting this proposal. Mr. Chair, I think that we have a great opportunity here, if we can reach consensus. We could move on to this proposal right away and, as my colleague, Ms. Gaudreau, said, we could be done by 3 p.m.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]Okay. Again, I need unanimous consent from all members for Mrs. Shanahan to withdraw her amendment. Is there unanimous consent for Mrs. Shanahan to withdraw her amendment?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.GregFergusHull—AylmerGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1400)[Translation]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Could we poll the members in the room to find out whether there is unanimous consent to go along with my proposal? After that we could proceed. If we address this piecemeal, without agreeing on the whole thing, I would not feel too reassured.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English] Okay. The challenge is that I can allow for debate only on what is before the committee. Now, if committee members want to get assurances from their colleagues, that's fine to do privately. In terms of the process now, in order for there to be an amendment debated here at the committee, and to have a vote on that, we would require that this amendment be disposed of first, either by a vote or by its being withdrawn. We could proceed on this in two different ways. We could either move to a vote on Ms. Shanahan's motion, and if it was defeated—or passed, for that matter—then an additional amendment or a subamendment could be brought forward.Mr. Fergus.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.GregFergusHull—AylmerGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1400)[English]Mr. Chair, just to continue along that point—and please forgive me for engaging in a debate with you, which is really not my intent—on at least two occasions at this committee we have conducted a sort of straw poll so that everybody knew what we were getting into. Then, in good faith, we went forward on it. That's all I'm seeking, a straw poll, if you would allow it, Mr. Chair, before we move on to the formal approach, which you are quite correct in requiring from the rest of us.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]That is specifically why I gave an additional three minutes, so that we could suspend and members could—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.GregFergusHull—AylmerGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1400)[English]I agree. I know that people heard it, but they didn't have a chance to report back as to whether or not they could proceed.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]I'm hearing that there are members who still want to speak. I am limited by what I've stipulated. I can allow for a vote if there are no additional speakers on Ms. Shanahan's amendment. We can move to a vote and determine the outcome from that, or Ms. Shanahan can withdraw her motion and there can be unanimous consent to do that. I can seek that.I can proceed in two different ways. We can move to a vote. I think there's a desire to get an indication one way or another, so we'll move to a vote if there's an appetite to do that. I'm getting signals that members would like to find a way forward. The vote is probably the best way to do that so that determinations can then be made on how to proceed.Mr. Fergus.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.GregFergusHull—AylmerGregFergusHull—Aylmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88478GregFergusGreg-FergusHull—AylmerLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FergusGreg_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Greg Fergus: (1400)[English]While you were talking, I was able to do just a quick little head-nod poll. There doesn't seem to be consent from my colleagues on that. That straw proposal—my effort to bring this to a close—I'm afraid, seems to have failed. I would withdraw even that proposal to try to come to a consensus.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1400)[English]Thank you, Mr. Fergus. We do still have some speakers on the list. We have Monsieur Gourde, followed by Ms. Lattanzio.Monsieur Gourde.GregFergusHull—AylmerJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lévis—Lotbinière, CPC): (1405)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I've been listening to everyone for about three hours. We are dealing with an issue that is worth taking the time to discuss, since it has existed for years. It is a fundamental problem.I will wait until I know my colleagues are listening, because it's for them that I'm speaking right now. I would like us to be able to have a discussion, because hopefully that might lead to a solution.When I was first elected in 2006, the Board of Internal Economy and House of Commons services did not provide software to help us manage our constituents' case files in our riding offices. This is a fundamental problem. We still don't have those services today, 15 years later, and that's probably at the root of the problem we're facing now. Firms have designed software at the request of MPs from all parties. Keeping a living register is a real problem when we work with 90,000 citizens in our riding. At first, for a few years, we can keep paper records, but doing research becomes a very tedious job. People often come back to see us, and it is easier to provide adequate services to our constituents when we have software designed for this kind of case management.It is still difficult to unravel all of this and understand how the same firm can provide a political party with both non-partisan software, as Mrs. Shanahan told us, and software used for partisan purposes. There was much emphasis on the fact that there were firewalls to keep the two databases completely separate. Frankly, I hope so, because we really do owe it to ourselves to keep a wall around the information we collect from our constituents for the purpose of providing them services. Virtually all of that data is useless for a party's partisan activities. Essentially, the information that parties want for their partisan activities are phone numbers they can't find on Canada 411 and email addresses. As for the addresses, Elections Canada gives them to us. The parties are always hunting for email addresses and cellphone numbers. It's a race to see who can get more of them. There's no hiding it here. The key to getting in touch with our constituents is to visit them or call them. The problem is that fewer and fewer Canadians have land lines. Therefore, we all have the same problem. We all want to have their cellphone numbers to get in touch with them. There's nothing secret about this.However, there is an American company in the picture. Why? There may be an underlying reason no one knows about. I will give you a clue: In Canada there is no phone book listing cellphone numbers, but there is one in the United States that covers all of North America. I'm not sure whether you can connect the dots. It is illegal to have Canadians' cellphone numbers, but the Americans can access the cellphone numbers of all Canadians. That's very odd.Perhaps someday we can try to find out why we are entitled to have residential phone numbers, but not cellphone numbers. Only 20% of Canadians have solely a land line. Everyone is giving up their land lines for cellphones. One day we won't even be able to do our job as politicians during an election campaign.We have to stop burying our heads in the sand like ostriches. Right now, in Canada, we have a problem with cellphones. We are trying to find a solution by all legal means possible. There is actually a legal way: If the person wants to provide their cellphone number, we will take it. If there is consent, it's legal. However, 90% of Canadians do not want to give their cellphone number to a political party, so we're not going to get those numbers, unless we engage in barely legal schemes that are costly for the parties.It is currently illegal for a political party to have a database listing the cellphone numbers of all Canadians, regardless of which party we're talking about.There is a witch hunt going on and everyone is jumping in on it, when we all have the same problem: We are no longer able to contact our constituents. It's all well and good to go door to door, but if people don't open their doors or don't want to give us their cellphone numbers, we will not be able to call them, since they no longer have residential phone lines.This is a bit less of a problem in rural areas. In cities, however, the situation is worse. There is a huge number of people who no longer have residential phone lines. You all have cities in your ridings. Do you know how many of your constituents have cellphones? Between 90% and 95% of citizens have cellphones, while 20% have a residential phone line.(1410)Numbers for residential land lines are available on Canada 411, as are Canadians' names and addresses, so we can obtain them legally.That brings us back to the idea of software that can be used for partisan purposes. This software should be provided by the Board of Internal Economy as part of the services offered to members of Parliament, and it should be the same for all MPs, regardless of party. That would be the only way we could guarantee independence between a party and its MPs. If members had software provided by the House to manage their constituents' case files, there would certainly be a firewall effective enough to protect the data in the software. If a party asked a company to design a software package to help its MPs manage their constituents' case files, it would surely be tempted to collect, at the same time, the cellphone numbers and email addresses of those people. As for the rest of the information, the parties don't need it or want it. Those are the facts.We can throw mud at each other all we want. I have grandchildren, and if I help them put on their boots and there is a puddle, they will go play in the water and end up getting all dirty. We are doing exactly what children do when they play in a mud puddle. We will all play in the same puddle and end up getting soiled up to our necks. In the end, we will not be any further ahead or better able to do our jobs. We won't look all that smart to Canadians.I have some doubts about your proposal to take this directly to the Board of Internal Economy, simply because it will die there. We are not going to fix the problem, we will only delay fixing it, should there be an election. One way or another, there will be an election in two years, let's face it. However, the problem still won't be resolved in two years or in the following four years.Let's then take the time to talk about it at today's committee meeting. Several members have said that if we want to have software, we need firewalls. I agree with that. From an ethical standpoint, if we want to protect members of Parliament, we need firewalls. However, no software is going to be airtight if it's run by one party, no matter which party. If the five parties have five different software packages, we will be no further ahead.In my view, if we were to make a recommendation, it would be to conduct a study on this kind of software package and ask that the House provide one to members of Parliament so they could manage their constituents' case records. As for partisan activities, the parties will take care of that themselves. The parties' partisan activities affect us to some extent, but they are not necessarily our responsibility as members of Parliament.However, the confidentiality of the information contained in the software to manage constituents' cases is certainly our responsibility. We are acting on their behalf. Every time a citizen allows an MP to work on their case and do research on their behalf, regardless of the department involved, they are giving their consent, their proxy, to the member of Parliament, not the party. This is why it is often said that, when an MP loses an election, the constituents' case files are all cleared. That's because the proxy was not given to the new MP, after the election. It was given to the sitting MP. The proxy is in the sitting member's name, and because of this, they can be sued at any time. If a constituent is not happy with something that happened and there is a leak of information, that is the MP's responsibility.That's why each and everyone of us here should be careful. We have duties towards our constituents. We have duties and responsibilities under the law.We therefore won't find a solution by passing the buck, as we are doing now. Unfortunately, in 15 years, perhaps the House has not provided us with all the tools we need. That said, much progress has been made on the IT front. In 2006, everything was done on paper. We were just starting to use more IT tools. Now, the House provides us with a lot of IT services, but we never had a software package for managing our constituents' case files. It is hard for the House to create one. It's really complicated. It is easy enough for the House to do administrative management, because that's what they do, but managing constituents' case files is a different story. These systems are developed in MPs' offices. Some members have been lucky enough to work with the same staffers for 10 or 15 years, so they are aware of all the cases and all the situations that may arise.I'll give you some examples. Simply removing the names of people who have died from the constituent list is quite a task. There are ways to do it faster now, but I used to have a staffer who worked 12 hours a week just to do that. We then found a way to do it in 15 minutes, thanks to computers. Managing the Christmas card program used to take two months in 2006, whereas today we can do it in about two hours.(1415)Good software programs exist today to do this kind of work. The tools have improved over time. The House of Commons is not the one who designed these software programs. It was independent firms at the request of some MPs who wanted to save their employees time. When someone spends two months of their time at work on Christmas cards and figuring out who to send them to, it is hard on morale. Sometimes people will choose to leave their job the next year rather than having to do all that work again. There is no denying that it is not an interesting task. To manage our employees in the long term, we need to give them tools to make their work enjoyable. It is our responsibility if we want to keep good employees for a long time. When we have good employees, we can provide better services to our constituents. If a member has high employee turnover at their office and changes employees every year, then they need to keep starting over. I am thinking about training staff. It takes one to two years to properly train a person who will be dedicated to their work, who will be familiar with all the programs and who will be aware of situations. The work gets done much more quickly when the person is familiar with the tasks they need to do and they can then better help people. An employee can resolve up to 90% of cases in one day when they are not too complicated. More complicated cases take more time. It gets easier with experience.To keep good employees, we need to give them tools. In that regard, we can all work together to find solutions or we can be partisan and play political games to see who can undermine each other the most until the next election. Essentially, I am an MP to help the people in my riding. To help them and give them good service, I need to provide my employees with tools, tools of our own. I am happy to tell you about them, but at a certain point it comes down to experience.The important issue here is maintaining corporate memory—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English] Monsieur Gourde, in terms of the debate, we are on the amendment. I know that you have ventured out a fair bit, but I want to bring you back to the amendment. We have other members on the speakers list as well.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1415)[Translation]That is why I am asking Mrs. Shanahan to agree to withdraw her amendment so that we can expand on that idea a little more.If we hand this issue over to the Board of Internal Economy and do like we are doing today, nobody here will be any further ahead. The media will be reporting that things are not going well. In my opinion that is false partisanship, and I find that really sad.There is a problem. Either we close our eyes and continue to play political games or we do a little digging to figure out what is acceptable and what is not when it comes to partisan activities. If we find things that are unacceptable, let's submit them to the House of Commons and have the House provide us with the tools we need. Why did you have to pay $30,000 for a software program? If every member paid $30,000 for that software, it would cost approximately $3 million or $4 million and we cannot even benefit from it. Can we benefit from your software? I do not know. Maybe it is better than the systems we have.We should not have to design these systems ourselves. However, we are being forced to do so because no one wanted to design that kind of software for MPs. No one had the guts to do so. Perhaps we will be told that no one asked for it either. There is an ethical side to this issue because we really need to determine the tools that will be used for partisan purposes, for which the parties are responsible, and the tools that will make it possible to protect the confidentiality of data, for which MPs are responsible. These are issues that fall under our committee's purview. We are talking about the confidentiality of personal information in these software programs. We are the ones signing off on the procurement. It is our responsibility. It is your responsibility. It is the responsibility of the 338 MPs. We need to resolve this problem.I don't know whether Mrs. Shanahan wants to withdraw her amendment.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1415)[Translation]That is why we have the Board of Internal Economy to consider these issues. Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1415)[English]I hate to interrupt the conversation that's happening here, but we have one additional member on the speakers list before we go to a vote.Madame Lattanzio.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacollePatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1415)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I found Mr. Gourde's speech very interesting.I wish you had spoken earlier because you clearly explained that this problem that we are discussing today, if there is one, does not seem to be coming from just one party.All my colleague's amendment is asking is to bring in an entity that will help us to see whether there is a problem not only with regard to the facts presented in your colleague's request but also with regard to the system your party uses. When I say you, I am not talking about you personally. I am talking about CIMS.The amendment is twofold. First, it asks that the issue be referred to the Board of Internal Economy, which has the mandate necessary to conduct such a study. Second, the amendment asks that we put our cards on the table by allowing other systems to be examined too.If you are looking for a solution, this one is fair, equitable and transparent.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1420)[Translation]Why not examine the issue here? Do you think it wouldn't be fair, equitable and transparent?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelPatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1420)[Translation]We need to look at the wording of the mandate of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. I quoted it earlier, but I would like to read the standing order that talks about the committee's mandate and powers again. I want to take the time to read it for my colleague. The last time I read it in response to my colleague, Mr. Barrett.Here is what Standing Order 108(3)(h)(vii) says:(vii) the proposing, promoting, monitoring and assessing of initiatives which relate to access to information and privacy across all sectors of Canadian society and to ethical standards relating to public office holders;You can therefore see what we are talking about, Mr. Gourde.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1420)[Translation]As I told you, it falls within our mandate. According to what the standing order says, this falls under our mandate.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelPatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1420)[Translation]Your colleague is asking that Mr. Pitfield appear before the committee, but he is not a public office holder. That is what we are trying to tell you very clearly.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1420)[Translation]Yes, but he is a service provider.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelPatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1420)[Translation]I will continue my speech, if I may, Mr. Gourde. I heard other people say that one meeting would be enough to resolve everything. That seems to be the sticking point. People think that we will be able to ask the witness questions, study the issue and clear everything up in just one meeting. Members of this committee are experienced. We know full well that this will take more than one meeting. The request does not even ask us to report our findings to the House of Commons, since it is not sitting.I am therefore having a really hard time understanding my colleagues at the table who are asking the committee to bring in a single witness in order to get answers. They are saying that, if that person has nothing to hide, then we will be able to quickly deal with the issue. If the other parties have nothing to hide either, then why do they not want us to assess the software programs they are using? Why will they not agree to expand the scope of this study so that everyone is transparent? That is what my colleague's amendment is trying to do, to expand the scope of this study.Some committee members are telling us that they do not agree with the amendment and that they want to stick with the original motion. For what it is worth, the motion talks about a study that seems very broad at first glance. It does not indicate that the study will be limited to a single meeting where we hear from the witness in question. What is more, the motion seems to allege that there is already a conflict of interest when that is not what we have before us. Some members want to bring in the witness so that they can go on a fishing expedition, as my colleague, Mr. Sorbara so clearly pointed out. They are at it again. It is like a second version of the WE Charity investigation.All my colleagues are saying that they want to focus on the work they need to do for their constituents and on issues affecting Canadians. Unfortunately, we were summoned, almost urgently, to a meeting in the middle of July about something that has no basis. Obviously, some members want to investigate to see whether there is something to find. What is more, they want to limit the debate. That goes against the principle of transparency that Mr. Carrie was talking about this morning. These members do not want us to look into and study the other software programs. They want to limit the study to this particular software.You are going to tell me that there is no political motivation behind this and that this is not a witch hunt. I am—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1420)[Translation]You did not understand what I said.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelPatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1420)[Translation]I want to understand what you are saying, all of you.(1425)[English]Unfortunately, though, the spirit of the motion speaks for itself.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]I will remind colleagues that we are speaking to the amendment. I know there was a desire to move to a vote on the amendment, but I now have Mrs. Shanahan on the list again. As well, I have Mr. Dong on the list again.We'll hear from Mrs. Shanahan first, and then Mr. Dong.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1425)[English]Actually, mine is a point of order.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]Oh, then I recognize the point of order.Mr. Dong.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1425)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.When we originally heard about today's meeting, it was supposed to be from 11 to 1. That's why I am not prepared. I didn't bring lunch, and I don't think any lunch was prepared. I was wondering if we could take a lunch break for half an hour.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English] Well, I'm the eternal optimist. I'm hopeful that we're very close to lunch for all of us. That means we get to the end of this discussion, we go to a vote, and then we vote on the main motion. If there's a desire by members to then adjourn the meeting, we'll adjourn the meeting and allow every member to go for lunch. That's the effort I'm going to make right now. I'm going to commit to you that I will do everything in my power to get you to lunch as soon as possible. We'll hear from Mrs. Shanahan, and then I'm hopeful that we'll go to a vote.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1425)[English]On a point of order, I have more to say too. You could canvass the room and see if we agree to a short lunch break.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1425)[English]We'll hear from Mrs. Shanahan. Then we'll hear from Mr. Dong and go to a vote. Then we'll deal with the main motion.Mrs. Shanahan.HanDongDon Valley NorthBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1425)[English]Thank you, Chair.I understand the desire of my colleague. I think we all thought we were going to get there. [Translation]I do want to say that I found Mr. Gourde's intervention very interesting. He was direct and honest about how things worked. This may be news to Canadians.Some members have said that they want to find solutions. That is exactly what the Board of Internal Economy is designed to do. The issue at hand here has to do with how House resources are used, so it makes complete sense for the discussion we are having today to be brought to the Board of Internal Economy. They're the ones who are in a position to make decisions. Unless there is anyone here from the whips' offices, the Board of Internal Economy is best suited to handle this. The board has representatives from each party, and it is able to have open and honest discussions about the challenges we are all facing and then find a solution.I don't see how this has anything to do with Mr. Pitfield. Mr. Pitfield's only mistake was to be Justin Trudeau's childhood friend. Does that preclude him from living his life, starting a business, working or even supporting the Liberal Party?That's why I wondered earlier if people were just compiling a list of anyone who has been friends with the Prime Minister. If that is the goal here, then the same should be done for the leaders of all of the parties. You can see where this is going. This is, quite simply, the very definition of partisanship, and a study is not useful under these circumstances.We've seen it, Mr. Gourde. Be honest with me, because I'm being honest with you. The committee was fishing for something when it called in witnesses. There was no other reason. These were public servants, young employees and ordinary business owners. Some of the witnesses were apparently business owners who had donated to the Conservative Party but made the mistake of working with a former Liberal member of Parliament who was now running a company that manufactures ventilators to combat COVID‑19.Where does it all end? Will we have to send all of our volunteers to testify in committee? Will I have to send all of the ladies who make calls for me? I imagine that you also have volunteers. Is every single one of these people going to be questioned about what everything they do? As you and Ms. Lattanzio have pointed out, I don't think Canadians are interested in seeing everything we do.It is important to support efforts in politics. I know that people don't like election campaigns, but they're part of the democratic process. During an election campaign, we need to talk with voters to share our plan and persuade them to support our position.We're going to be campaigning soon. You have more experience with this than I do, although I've been through a couple elections. There are highs and lows. When things are going well, it's great and we are happy. It's a different story when things aren't going well. At the end of the day, once the campaigning is over and the candidate has been elected, whether we're talking about a federal member of Parliament, a member of the National Assembly or a mayor, the individual has a duty to work for the people.You're probably right in saying that the House should equip members for campaigning. This is a necessary discussion, but the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics is not going to be creating such a tool.This is about House resources—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1430)[Translation]If you're setting the parameters— Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1430)[Translation]—it's up to the Board of Internal Economy and our leaders. That's clear. It's not up to our committee.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1430)[Translation]No, we're the ones who handle these issues.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1430)[Translation]No, it's not up to us.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreJacquesGourdeLévis—Lotbinière//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1430)[Translation]Privacy is one of our responsibilities. Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1430)[Translation]I completely disagree.Right now, we're talking about the amendment.My colleague, Mr. Fergus, made an interesting proposal. Canadians would like to know how parties operate. They're curious. We're all happy to see that COVID‑19 is getting relatively better. We're no longer looking at a one-dose summer; we're looking at a two-dose one. It would be wonderful to turn the page and move on to something else. That said, I did find Mr. Fergus's proposal interesting. He unfortunately had to leave the meeting, but he proposed that we give Canadians an opportunity to see how political parties operate.Conflicts and misunderstandings can certainly often arise, especially when it comes to determining the role of a member of Parliament and of a political party. I've seen it. Before I was elected, my riding was represented by a New Democrat. Before him, my riding was represented by a member of the Bloc Québécois, who served two or three terms. During the first weeks and months after my election, in 2015 and 2016, I met with constituents and then—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.JacquesGourdeLévis—LotbinièreChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1430)[English] Mrs. Shanahan, I'll remind you again that we are speaking to the amendment. I know there's temptation to go on to other subjects, but we are speaking to the amendment. Your colleague, Mr. Dong, would like an opportunity to speak, and then we're hoping to get to a vote because I know that Mr. Dong would like to get out for lunch.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1430)[English]That is true. That is very true.[Translation]I just want to say that some people thought that they had to be a New Democrat to talk to the former NDP MP in their riding, that they had to be Bloc supporters to speak to the former Bloc Québécois MP or that they had to be Liberal to talk to me. That's not at all the case. Members of Parliament are there for everyone.[English]I'm going to switch to English now because this is the information we have, and this is the kind of thing that's a bit like the sausage-making of legislation or the sausage-making of politics. Apparently, someone referred to CIMS, and that's what I have in my amendment, because we want to add the study of the constituent information management system, which Mr. Barrett proudly says is completely paid for by the Conservative Party. But wait a minute: It's not a voter information management database; it's a constituent information management database. The CIMS looks at constituents, paid for by the partisan, political party, but used for the constituents in constituency offices, where that information is and must be kept confidential at all times, as Mr. Gourde so well said.The overall purpose of CIMS is that it's an integrated voter management and targeting database used by the Conservative Party to target voters and donors, as well as overall campaign management. It's fully funded and managed by the Conservative Party of Canada. As the database is managed outside of Parliament, they use no outright parliamentary resources. However, they use the exact same database, without a firewall, to manage constituent cases.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1435)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, that's not true. It's been established in this meeting that that system is not used in our offices. In fact, Mr. MacKinnon went on at great length about the system I use in my office, and it is not—An hon. member: [Inaudible—Editor]Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]Colleagues.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1435)[English]Did Mr. MacKinnon get appointed chair during my intervention?ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]I could barely hear Mr. Barrett's point of order because of the yelling by Mr. MacKinnon.Mr. MacKinnon, you will come to order. Thank you.Mr. Barrett.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1435)[English]Chair, it was well established, including by Mr. MacKinnon himself, that the software we use is our offices, mine included.... He even knew whose it was and knew who owns it. I don't even know who owns the company that uses it. Chair, Mr. MacKinnon is not a regular at this committee and he might not realize how things work, but my understanding was that you are the chair and that he was very concerned about how thick people's skin was. I just wonder if he could be called to order, as he seems very upset.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English] He has been called to order several times.Mrs. Shanahan, I'll turn to you.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1435)[English]I'd be interested, then, to have that study and to have those contracts tabled so that Mr. Barrett could, indeed, prove that.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1435)[English]There's no contract, because we don't use it.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1435)[English]It was widely reported in 2007.CIMS is used not only to track voter allegiance in a given riding—something every political party attempts—but also a host of other data gathered in the course of an MP's constituency office duties.But the Conservatives use a single clearing house for all data collection, storage, datamining, mailing lists, voter tracking and any other partisan use such information may serve.Apparently there was a bit of a snafu there. The prime minister at the time, Stephen Harper, asked the Conservative Party to investigate allegations against embattled MP Eve Adams. She crossed the floor a couple of times.Some Conservative party members in the riding have complained of Adams's unauthorized use of their personal information contained in the party's CIMS database (Constituency Information Management System)—This is from the National Post, by the way.—when she's “a member of Parliament who has no history with them on a personal level and does not represent them in Parliament.”That's what citizens were already complaining about. They were getting mail from this MP, and I can tell you that I was getting it from a Conservative MP. It had nothing to do with me. That's reported in the National Post.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1435)[English]I have a point of order on relevance, Mr. Chair.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1435)[English]I recognize the point of order on relevance. Mrs. Shanahan has been asked several times to bring her comments.... Speaking about a member of Parliament who crossed over to the Liberal Party from the Conservative Party is probably not relevant to the amendment. I'll ask the member to bring her comments to the amendment that's being discussed at this time.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1435)[English]It is to the point of why we want to have the study of the CIMS program—not just the CRM program of our party but also the CIMS program—and why we want to have this done by the Board of Internal Economy. That is my amendment. This has been controversial in the past. In fact, I have far more on that. Maybe a public meeting to discuss this would be the thing to do.[Translation]A public meeting is an opportunity to air dirty laundry.(1440)[English]Sunlight is the best disinfectant, right?There was another complaint. The Toronto Star reported it. There was a memo to then prime minister Harper, saying that some incumbent MPs wanted to have “nominations held ASAP, including Rob Anders who believes he can win if we open [the contest] now.” It says, however, that once a nomination contest begins, an MP or his staff will no longer have access to a party database.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]I recognize Mr. Barrett on a point of order.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1440)[English]Mr. Chair, on the subject of relevance, although I haven't heard the date of the article that's being referenced, it has to be at least 14 or 15 years old. I would imagine it's a bit of a stretch to find this relevant when we're talking about a government that hasn't been in place for six years. We're talking about MPs who haven't been in office for nearly two decades. The amendment to the motion is a little more narrow in scope than, perhaps, the news recitation that we're getting from the member opposite.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]Thank you, Mr. Barrett.Mr. MacKinnon, go ahead on the same point of order.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1440)[English]Mr. Barrett's very motion references media reports. We are here on the strength of media reports. Madam Shanahan, my colleague, is giving you media reports.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, I will rule on this point of order. You have pointed out exactly why I have to rule against Mrs. Shanahan. We aren't discussing the main motion. We're talking about the amendment.I would remind members, as I have tried—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1440)[English]Mr. Chair, if you would permit me to finish my point of order—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]I have the floor. I have ruled against the point of order. I would ask Mrs. Shanahan to come to order, to speak to the amendment, to allow for a vote, and for members to then debate the motion as amended or not amended.Mrs. Shanahan, go ahead on the amendment.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Decisions in committeeGovernment contractsNGP VAN Inc.RelevancyStevenMacKinnonGatineauBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1440)[English] Well, Chair—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1440)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, my colleague, Madam Shanahan, is now going through a number of examples of reports of usage of the database of the Conservative Party and its possible misuse as a constituency management tool, and that goes to the very name. I can't think of anything more relevant to the amendment, Mr. Chair.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, I have ruled, and this is debate that you're engaging in.Mrs. Shanahan, go ahead on the amendment.StevenMacKinnonGatineauBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1440)[English]Chair, I actually have far more to say, but I can save it for another time, because I am moving forward. It was Mr. Gourde who was telling us about the history going back 15 years and how important this kind of—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1440)[English]Yes, thank you, Mrs. Shanahan. You'll recall I brought him to order in the same way that I will with other members. We are speaking on the amendment.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1440)[English]Indeed.As I say, I have more incidents that indeed point to questions that can be asked about the party databases that are being used, apparently with constituent data. It's being turned around and could be used for pre-campaign or campaign purposes. I think these are very legitimate questions that Canadians would have. I personally would prefer to see them dealt with in BOIE, where they can be dealt with, very frankly, so that we don't have all of this partisan theatre that this committee has been subjected to almost from its beginning. That is the amendment we have before us. I would actually welcome the support of any of my colleagues on this amendment. If they want to offer a subamendment that we can support, then I say we're ready to study this question. Mr. Fergus generously offered something before that would be substantive and that would certainly go a long way to reassuring Canadians that their private data is being handled correctly by political parties and, more importantly, by MPs. This is why we're here in this capacity, to represent our constituents.As I say, I have far more that I can go into, but I'm happy to save it for another meeting and organize it and put it together, because there are some interesting things from the leadership campaign and data contracts that are going back and forth, and questions about who's a management consultant and who's not, and so on. That's why I offer yet again to opposition colleagues that if they want to study this.... Actually, the more I look at this material the more I think it needs to be studied, so I thank Mr. Barrett and the members who signed the letter bringing this to our attention.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1445)[English]Let's vote.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1445)[English] I think it's something that we're waiting for on the amendment. Let's be open to sending this matter to BOIE if there's an appetite.... I'm looking at my fellow members. I know someone is going to be speaking a bit more fulsomely. I never quite get all the words together for an amendment, or a subamendment, but maybe someone else will have something to add to the discussion.On that note, Mr. Chair, you can put me back on the speaking list and I'll pull this together.Thank you.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1445)[English]We'll have Mr. Dong and then we have Mrs. Shanahan again on the speaking list.Mr. Dong.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1445)[English] Thank you very much, Chair.I've been listening to the conversations going back and forth. I'm a little disappointed that my colleague MP Fergus's proposal for a solution has not received positive support from the opposite side. I said earlier that when I first saw the notice of meeting, I was saying to myself that if it's about process and procedure, or members' code of conduct, I don't think this committee that we're sitting at right now has the mandate for it or is the most appropriate to look into it. If it's about ethics or a breach of privacy of our constituents, yes, this is the right committee, but I think all members would agree that we should look at the practice of the constituency offices of all members of Parliament. I appreciate that Mr. Barrett pointed out that he maybe used a different service from other members, but I'm still confused as to how the opposition, collectively or caucus-wise.... Do they use one service? How do they tackle the differences in the different software and remain able to share information to serve their constituents? If it's about privacy protection, then we should be looking at all members' constituency office practices. Nevertheless, here we are. We're here to discuss the use of NGP VAN and Data Sciences by the Liberal caucus members. As some members pointed out, it was reported on recently. However, again, I want to reiterate that the article spoke about more than just Liberal members' usage of data. I want to share with all the viewers that since day one, our caucus has always strived to have members of Parliament who are serving and accountable to their constituents. With hundreds of thousands of constituents per riding, this is not a simple task. Effectively managing constituency casework, outreach programs and communication is often a complicated task. We heard from Mr. Gourde that it was more manual in terms of managing constituency casework. I too have had that experience. When I was working as a junior staffer at a local constituency office for a federal member, it was all paper and faxes. Right now, just with the amount, and especially during the pandemic, it's not possible to perform very efficient work for your electors. Having effective data management and technical infrastructure is critical to the work that members of Parliament need to do. In fact—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]Mr. Dong, I hate to interrupt you, but it seems as though your comments are more suited for the debate with regard to the motion and not the amendment. Did you have comments with regard to the amendment?HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1450)[English]It's coming up.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]Let's maybe fast-forward to that part. I know you're hungry and want to get out—HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1450)[English]I was speaking for all members. That's why I asked for a break.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]Well, those members might want lunch too.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1450)[English]I see.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]If you move to the part where you're talking about the amendment, then colleagues will be able to hear that. I suspect that you'll have some words on the motion, whether it's amended or not, so maybe save these comments for that point and move to the portion where you'd like to discuss the amendment.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1450)[English]Thank you, Chair. I do have a bit more to say. On that point, I wonder if we can canvass the committee members and see if we can take a half-hour break before I go on to finish my remarks.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]I'm not getting any requests on that matter, other than from you, Mr. Dong.I have heard from several who would like to go to the vote. Maybe I'll canvass members. Is there any support to move to the vote on the amendment? Would any members like to do that?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1450)[English]I'm not doing that.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1450)[English] I oppose. No. Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.HanDongDon Valley NorthChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1450)[English]We're getting a lot of support for a vote. It's not unanimous support, but there's a lot of support for moving to a vote.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1450)[English] I think it's very critical to know that not only on this side do we use digital infrastructure, but also that I hear the Conservative, NDP, Bloc and Green Party members support having large databases to help them to manage their constituency work. We live in a country with 37 million people. I know that the Conservatives are fine with the idea of helping constituents, otherwise they would have recalled this committee for other purposes. I want to again point out the fact that this meeting is not a regularly scheduled meeting. It's a special meeting called by opposition members based on what was reported in the media. I think it's fair for Canadians to have some concerns on the issues of privacy and the procurement of services for the appropriate use of these resources by parliamentarians to serve their constituents. However, to ensure that we are all able to continue our constituency work in an ethical way that is not an abuse of parliamentary resources is why the service provided by NGP VAN is completely separate from the operations of Liberalist. We've heard that this is a program used for election purposes. They are completely separate. I understand and respect the rules around the separation of party from parliamentarian, and we still strive to be the best caseworkers for our constituents. The use of NGP VAN also has the advantage of being familiar to many members and staffers in terms of its layout, format and usability. Thanks to the use of Liberalist in the campaign, many of the incoming staff are familiar with and know how the program functions and works. It kind of helps them to get on with this software that they have become familiar with, but with a completely different set of data. This is very important to stress: There is a fair bit of a firewall or restriction built in to protect the privacy of constituents, which I hold dear to my heart.Of course, it would be a dereliction of duty if this committee were to ignore the Conservative Party's behaviour on this issue. We're very much aware that Mr. Barrett talked about how his management organization in his constituency office may be different from that of his colleagues, but I would like to remind the committee that in 2007 there was the discovery of gross misuse of the Conservative Party's constituency information management database by the Conservative government. That was an incident in which the Conservative Party of Canada used its constituency database to send voter information straight to its party apparatus, a party that would be fighting an election in the very next year.(1455) To put that in contrast to the meeting that we are having today, the Conservatives—or some of the Conservative members, because I don't like to use big names that tag everybody—are making the accusation that we on this side are using the same company to separately manage constituency work and campaign work, while by contrast the Conservatives, or some Conservatives, decided to use the same companies for constituency work and for campaigning, for election purposes. Canadians who would go to their Conservative or some of the Conservative members of Parliament looking for service—looking for help that is offered by their office, their CO—have their information sent straight to the Conservative Party and its election machine. This dishonest practice was prominently featured in the media and was also reported on by a former Conservative member of Parliament and Conservative officials in the former Conservative MP Garth Turner's report on this practice when he left the Conservative Party in 2006. He said the party had been using constituency casework that had been collected by a Conservative member of Parliament, and there was lots of evidence to support this allegation of malpractice. In 2006 several individuals made complaints about receiving Rosh Hashanah greetings from then prime minister Stephen Harper, despite not being Jewish.Later, Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1455)[English]Chair, on a point of order, I believe you already ruled on a point of order dealing with the exact same subject matter that Mr. Dong is referencing. If it was to be referenced briefly as part of making a bigger case.... That's why I didn't raise the point earlier, but it seems that it will make up the substance, or the bulk of what he's offering. Again, we're digging some dry holes here, I think, to repurpose Mr. MacKinnon's phrase.HanDongDon Valley NorthChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1455)[English]Mr. Dong, I would encourage you to move to the.... Mr. MacKinnon, please come to order. Please come to order, Mr. MacKinnon.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1455)[English]I'm making a point of order, Mr. Chair.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1455)[English]I didn't recognize a point for you yet.Mr. MacKinnon has a point of order.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1455)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for granting me the same privilege that my colleague, Mr. Barrett, was arbitrarily granted. He can interrupt a member who is in the middle of making a speech to this committee—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, do you have a point of order? What is your point of order?StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1500)[Translation]Yes, Mr. Chair.It really seems to bother Mr. Barrett that Mr. Dong is repeating himself and going on and on with some apparently documented allegations of the inappropriate or questionable use of software by the entire Conservative machine in Parliament. That is why he keeps rising on a point of order to interrupt my colleague's speech.Mr. Chair, I urge you to let my colleague, Mr. Dong, finish his speech. I'm sure people want to hear the rest of his intervention.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]The only person holding the floor at the moment is Mr. MacKinnon.Thank you for finishing your point of order. Mr. Dong, we will now hear from you, but I would encourage you to draw a link to the amendment in your statement.StevenMacKinnonGatineauHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1500)[English]The link is pretty obvious.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Mr. Dong, it hasn't been obvious to members at this table. If you struggle to make the links then I may rule it out of order. I would ask that you seek to speak to the amendment specifically.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1500)[English] Thank you, Chair.To me the core essence of the amendment is to show the Conservative members that their service, or their usage, or their decision on a point of service from providers that previously donated to the party is also quite concerning as well. Therefore, I think the essence of the amendment is to invite their service providers. If the motion is set out to correct some bad behaviours, if you will, or some misuse of public funds, I think we should be looking at all members of Parliament.I previously had the opportunity to share with the committee some numbers, some facts, and how according to a member's report a service provider to Mr. Barrett's office had links with the Conservative Party and had made donations. I have a few more things to share with the committee and the public. I was going to save them for later, but, respectfully, I've heard you, Chair, and you indicated that I should get to the point. My point is that according to some of this public information, I think there are quite a few reasons why we should also hear from service providers to the Conservative members of Parliament. Gerald Soroka also has a licence contract with Momentuum BPO. We've heard that its leadership is a very generous donor to the Conservative Party—that's quite a reason—at, in 2020, on November 5, a value of $2,200. To Rosemarie Falk from Momentuum BPO Inc.—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Mr. Dong—HanDongDon Valley NorthMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1500)[Translation]Point of order, Mr. Chair.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]On a point of order, Madame Gaudreau.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1500)[Translation]We're talking about a very specific amendment. Could members refrain from making comments not related to the amendment? Otherwise, we could spend three days on this. I agree that this is important and interesting, but can we focus on the amendment so that we can make a decision?ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Thank you.Mr. Dong, I think that's been expressed by many members. Maybe for the benefit of committee members, because maybe I'm missing the connection, you could draw the connection between Momentuum BPO Inc. and the amendment that we're considering.Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1500)[English]I said earlier, in my previous opportunity to speak, that Momentuum has made contributions to the Conservatives.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Momentuum is not mentioned in the amendment at all. HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1500)[English]Right.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1500)[English]Perhaps you'd like to bring in an additional amendment, or a subamendment at some point that might be relevant, but the discussion with regard to Momentuum is not indicated in the amendment, so I am ruling it out of order.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1505)[English]Are they not a service provider to a Conservative member of Parliament?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]I'm ruling that because it's not mentioned in the amendment—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1505)[English]If we're talking—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]—Mr. Dong, I have ruled.HanDongDon Valley NorthHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1505)[English]I am not challenging you.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]I appreciate that agreement, so let's move on to the subject material with regard to the amendment.HanDongDon Valley NorthStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1505)[Translation]Point of order, Mr. Chair. Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]On a point of order, go ahead, Mr. MacKinnon.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1505)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We're only here because Mr. Barrett and his colleagues are alleging that there was a mix-up with the database we use to serve our constituents and the one that the Liberal Party uses for partisan purposes.Mr. Dong gave a perfect example—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, are you challenging the chair?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1505)[Translation]—that Conservative supporters—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Are you challenging the chair, Mr. MacKinnon?StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1505)[English]I would note, Mr. Chair, that you are not affording Mr. Dong the latitude—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Mr. MacKinnon, are you challenging the chair?StevenMacKinnonGatineauStevenMacKinnonGatineau//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1505)[English]I am indeed, Mr. Chair.Appeal of the decision of the Committee ChairCommittee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Decisions in committeeGovernment contractsNGP VAN Inc.RelevancyChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]We'll move to a vote on the ruling of the chair. Madam Clerk, could you call the roll?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.StevenMacKinnonGatineauMiriamBurkeMiriamBurkeMiriam-BurkeInterventionThe Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Miriam Burke): (1505)[English] The question is this: Shall the chair's ruling be sustained?(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 4)Appeal of the decision of the Committee ChairCommittee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Decisions in committeeDecisions of Committee ChairsGovernment contractsNGP VAN Inc.Recorded divisionsRelevancyChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1505)[English]Thank you, colleagues.Mr. Dong, the floor is yours.MiriamBurkeHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1505)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know exactly what I was voting for. I just want to repeat the point I want to make. I'm not here to challenge the chair, but I do want to say that I appreciate my colleague's intervention. Obviously Mr. MacKinnon sees a clear connection between the evidence I'm presenting and the point I'm making. Hopefully my opposition colleagues will see that point as well, and understand why it's very important that we need to call in a service provider, not just for the Liberal caucus members but also for the Conservative caucus members. I heard my colleague Mr. Fergus trying to bring a solution that would really serve Canadians by shining a light on what's going on between these service providers, the contracts and the parliamentarians. I'm obviously open to doing that. I was ready to support his proposal that Canadians have the right to know, when they elect an MP, how their privacy is being protected, how the database is being managed, what the requirement is when it comes to procuring these services, who, quite honestly, makes these decisions and who, whenever there is a need, will be going there and fine-tuning all of these requirements so that taxpayer dollars are respected. I think the public needs to know.If you were to canvass your respective ridings and ask your voters if we should be looking at just the Liberal MPs, because we think they are using public funds for partisan reasons, I think they would tell you that every MP should be looked at.It's unfortunate that my good friend and colleague MP Fergus's proposal was not supported, but I'm here to ask my NDP and Bloc colleagues to consider the amendment and bring forward the service providers for the Conservative MPs as well, so that at least we will have a broader scope. If you see this as fitting the mandate of this committee—if that's what you honestly believe—then we should do something constructive. Hopefully, at the end of the study—I know that one meeting is being talked about, but I don't think it's going to end with one meeting—we will have something constructive to move forward with. Then, when you go back to your riding and people ask what happened with the study, you can say that we provided recommendations A, B, C and D, and that we will improve the system. If at the end it's just to prolong the news story and give more material to attack the ruling party, or the governing party, I think the public will see through that.My colleagues talked about this as being preparation by the Conservatives for an election, a near election. They assume that there will be a near election. I haven't heard that called by my leader or the writ dropped. This is sort of preparation for that and they have created some news stories about it, using public dollars.I hope the Bloc member and the NDP member will see through that and not be supportive of it. If we are, indeed, to have some value from today's meeting and future meetings, let's call in a few more service providers. Then we can compare and see the differences.Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll cede the floor.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1510)[English]Thank you.We have Mrs. Shanahan and Ms. Lattanzio on the speakers list.Mrs. Shanahan.HanDongDon Valley NorthBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1510)[English] Thank you, Chair.I thank my good friend Mr. Dong for his remarks. I'm always gratified to see that on this side, certainly, among the people I've gotten to know over the past years, there are a lot of different trains of thought. There's certainly a range in terms of where members on this side want to go when we're talking about changes to the Standing Orders and about how we can do things better here in politics. As I already indicated—that cat's out of the bag—I guess I'm what you call more of a “blue” Liberal. I'm on more that side of the street. However, I am very much gratified, as I say, to see that with such members as Mr. Dong and Mr. Fergus, for whom I have great respect, who are very experienced in political life, we can more forward. We can come together. I actually had my doubts, with some of the things I witnessed here, especially in this current Parliament, but that hope springs eternal. That's really where the amendment I have proposed is coming from. What it seeks to achieve is that we can discuss....You know, when members come in and they're brand new, they're looking for direction from colleagues, from caucus and so on. It is possible that members, regardless of political party, may not have been aware if they were asked by their whip or their party leader to sign a contract that would impact their expenses on their MOB, as we call it, in their House of Commons budget. Of course, this is public information now. Our expenses are made public. I believe that was—I'm looking for a nod here—our leader, when he was leader of the third party, who started that practice, which quickly became public. Certainly, all parties had to adopt it or questions would be asked about why they didn't want to disclose their House of Commons expenses.That's how we now have them public. As a former banker and so on, I certainly appreciate that kind of transparency. We are going in that direction, which is why I'm open, at this point. I think this is most appropriately studied by the Board of Internal Economy, but if, as my colleague Mr. Fergus suggested, we want to have a fulsome study of all parties in public, it could be very educational.I hesitate to use personal names, but please bear in mind, Mr. Chair, that we did not call this meeting today. It's not we who are naming an individual citizen and wanting to drag that person in front of this committee. However, if we're going to go there, then there are members who have been paying—that's what my colleague Mr. Dong was referring to—for contracts. It's public knowledge. Tony Baldinelli of Niagara Falls is paying Momentuum as well—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/102275MichaelBarrettMichael-BarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BarrettMichael_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Michael Barrett: (1515)[English]On a point of order, Chair, the committee voted, in fact, on your ruling on this very specific item. There was a chair challenge initiated by Mr. MacKinnon. We voted on that. It's highly disrespectful and disruptive that members are now contravening the will of this committee and an order of the chair. If that organization were named in Mrs. Shanahan's motion, it would be a different story, I suppose, but now she's not even talking about her own motion. That's against both the ruling of the chair and a vote of this committee.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English] I have made it very clear, Ms. Shanahan, because we have exhaustively debated this amendment, that all comments moving forward must pertain to the amendment. The comments about other contracts that have to do with other businesses that are not named in the amendment will be ruled out of order. Of course, the member knows the amendment because she drafted it. I would encourage the member to move to the relevant information with regard to the amendment.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesHanDongDon Valley North//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105091HanDongHan-DongDon Valley NorthLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DongHan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Han Dong: (1515)[English]Chair, I have a point of order. When I was listening to your ruling, there was a very important part that I think wasn't repeated by Mr. Barrett. You said it wasn't relevant to the amendment; however, it is relevant to the main motion, so this information that Ms. Shanahan is bringing forward can wait—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1515)[English]I encourage members to always support me, and I'm thankful for the support, Mr. Dong, but I think we got to the bottom of that as it pertains to the amendment.Ms. Shanahan, with regard to the amendment, I'd ask that you move to speak to the amendment.HanDongDon Valley NorthBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1515)[English]Indeed, and I—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya (Nepean, Lib.): (1515)[English]Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I've been listening carefully to what Mr. Dong said about Mr. MacKinnon's intervention and to Ms. Shanahan's talk on this. When I go through the wording of these amendments, the issue is the same system that enables partisan, election-related actions to be taken by constituency offices and parliamentary offices, because it refers to the actions taken at constituency offices. When we are discussing that, it is possible that which organizations are involved in that is relevant, so there's no—Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]I have ruled with regard to this. I am hopeful that we can get through this without another chair challenge, so I'd ask that Ms. Shanahan move to the discussion with regard to the amendment.Ms. Shanahan.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1520)[English]Mr. Chair—ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]Thank you for your intervention. I'll take it under advisement.ChandraAryaNepeanChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1520)[English]No, but related to that, it's just for a small clarification.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English]I apologize, but the floor is not yours. If you'd like to be on the speakers list, we can do that, but the floor is now Ms. Shanahan's.Ms. Shanahan.ChandraAryaNepeanBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1520)[English]Thank you, Chair.Actually, we've been hearing a lot of information during this meeting. [Translation]We could keep talking about it. We would learn a lot more. [English]I think there is some concern, and Mr. Gourde pointed to that. It's more and more difficult now to get contact information and so on. Again, this points to how important it is to direct this question to the Board of Internal Economy. Maybe members don't know that there are major Conservative Party donors who received thousands of dollars of licensing contracts. Maybe the individual members, whose names I have here, which are public, do not know that this is the case, and they may prefer, as Mr. Barrett mentioned, to hire a different company. This is something we could certainly explore in the vein of what Mr. Gourde was saying, and whether it would be something that is more neutral. I think there's something there, and I believe that the other parties here—the NDP and the Bloc Québécois—would also benefit from an exploration of data management.[Translation]That's true.[English]If anyone wants to suggest a subamendment that would bring us to some place where we can study this question fully, I certainly would welcome hearing that.On that, I think there's room for further discussion on the issue before us, the fact that a number of databases are used by all party members, and that it is the place of the Board of Internal Economy, I think, to study that. Thank you, Chair. I now cede the floor.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1520)[English] Thank you.Ms. Lattanzio.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacollePatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1520)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Following up on the intervention of my colleague Mr. Dong, and quite recently my colleague Mrs. Shanahan, I think Mr. Dong was making his points, and from your intervention, Mr. Chair, I understand that it was going beyond the scope of the amendment. Therefore, the question was, could there be a subamendment? In light of everything that's been discussed this afternoon and to be able to cover what we've sent from this side of the fence, we're saying that if we want to be transparent, then let's look at the data from all members of Parliament. We want to be transparent. Let's look at it all, because today we came in with one idea, and as we keep talking we keep discovering more and more information that perhaps Canadians ought to know. I mean, we want to keep it very brief but I'm sort of coming to the conclusion that there's so much more information out there that maybe could be of interest for the Board of Internal Economy to examine. Here's my subamendment, Mr. Chair. You will recall the paragraph that my colleague, Ms. Shanahan, seeks to amend. If you want to follow in the second paragraph, where it says “that the issue of the CIMS system”, I would add, “and all providers of data services to members of Parliament”, then I would continue, “which facilitates partisan election-related actions to be taken from constituency offices and Parliament Hill offices to determine if they are in compliance with the rules set out by the Board also be”, and I would add “examined and” before “referred to the BOIE”, the Board of Internal Economy.Is that okay, Mr. Chair?Amendments and subamendmentsCommittee businessCommittee studies and activitiesConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsMotionsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]Are you able to send that to the clerk?Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelPatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-Michel//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104957PatriciaLattanzioPatricia-LattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LattanzioPatricia_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Patricia Lattanzio: (1525)[English]I will. I have it handwritten. I'm going to type it out and send it over to you.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1525)[English]We will suspend until such time as that has been circulated to members in both official languages.The meeting is suspended.(1525)(1605)Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.PatriciaLattanzioSaint-Léonard—Saint-MichelChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English] I call the meeting back to order.We're debating the subamendment. I have two speakers on the speaking list. They are Mr. Arya and Mrs. Shanahan. Then we have Madame Gaudreau and Mr. Carrie.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1605)[English] On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I've read the subamendment, and I'm just wondering.... I understand the Liberal strategy here. The original motion that brought us in today was talking about a study on the conflict of interest related to taxpayer-funded contracts with Data Sciences and about the committee's inviting Mr. Pitfield to appear. Basically, it seems that we're getting further and further away from that. We're talking about everything else but this. It seems that every time the Liberals have an opportunity, it just brings it further and further. Now we're debating a subamendment. I'm just wondering if it's actually in order with what we're talking about, with the original motion that we have on the table.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.Points of orderProcedureChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]I'll leave it to members to determine how far distanced they feel it is from the original, but I have said it before and I'll say it again: While there have been times when things have been referred to the subcommittees of a committee or to the House, it would be unprecedented for a committee to tell another committee what to do. I suspect that it would be met with some resistance from that committee. I know that we do not have any authority over that committee. We cannot tell another committee what to do.You are correct that this is unusual. I have allowed it. I will allow members to use their discernment to determine whether or not they want to set the precedent of committees telling other committees what to do.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Decisions of Committee ChairsGovernment contractsNGP VAN Inc.ProcedureColinCarrieOshawaColinCarrieOshawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25486ColinCarrieColin-CarrieOshawaConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/CarrieColin_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Colin Carrie: (1605)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]We have Mr. Arya on the speaking list.ColinCarrieOshawaChandraAryaNepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88860ChandraAryaChandra-AryaNepeanLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/AryaChandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Chandra Arya: (1605)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The subamendment proposed by my colleague is very relevant, because the main motion was on the management of the constituency offices. The amendment by my other colleague referred to another party's system of managing the constituency office operations. The subamendments in fact make it very clear that we have to take a global approach and look at every single member of Parliament—how they manage their constituency office operations and whether the taxpayer-funded operations are partisan or not. It allows us to have a good overall look. However, in my view, the committee best suited to study this is the Board of Internal Economy.That's it, Mr. Chair.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you.We'll go to Mrs. Shanahan and then Madame Gaudreau.ChandraAryaNepeanBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1605)[English]Thank you, Chair.I'm just reviewing the subamendment as referred to by Ms. Lattanzio. If it were adopted, the amendment would then read as follows: “That the issue of contracts related to Data Sciences be referred to the BOIE. That the issue of the CIMS system and all providers of services to members of Parliament”—we don't know all the names of the providers, so it's all providers of services to members of Parliament—“which facilitate partisan, election-related actions to be taken from constituency offices and Parliament Hill offices to determine if they are in compliance with the rules set out by the Board also be examined and referred to the BOIE.”I have a question, Chair. In the overall amended motion—maybe the clerk can read it out to us—do we still have the public meeting in there? I'm just curious.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]No words have been removed. Your amendment simply inserted your full text between the words “that” and “pursuant”. The subamendment didn't remove any words either. All of the words that were there at the beginning are still there. They have simply been added to.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleBrendaShanahanChâteauguay—Lacolle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88442BrendaShanahanBrenda-ShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ShanahanBrenda_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Brenda Shanahan: (1610)[English] Okay, so that's interesting for all members to know that we're still dealing with a public component of the study as well. I find this subamendment, again, very interesting. To take that study of all the different political parties and the software we use and the practices we have in our constituency offices and on Parliament Hill would, I think, be very useful. There would be one part in public and then part of it at the Board of Internal Economy. I think, as we know, different committees will work on different aspects of a problem, and it can inform another committee when the work has already been undertaken elsewhere. I'm not always in favour of that. I like everyone to stay in their lane, but we can see there's that flexibility in the parliamentary system, right, and that we are authors of the work we do here, as are other committee members when they are there.On that note, and in the interests of time, I move that this meeting do hereby be adjourned.AdjournmentCommittee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsMotionsNGP VAN Inc.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]There is a non-debatable motion with regard to the adjournment of this committee meeting.Committee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Government contractsNGP VAN Inc.BrendaShanahanChâteauguay—LacolleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1610)[Translation]Point of order, Mr. Chair.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Pardon me?Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1610)[Translation]Are we talking about adjourning the meeting or suspending it until later?ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]This is a motion to adjourn the meeting, not to suspend the meeting. Marie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104806Marie-HélèneGaudreauMarie-Hélène-GaudreauLaurentides—LabelleBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GaudreauMarieHélène_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau: (1610)[Translation]What's the difference between the two?ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]That would be final, and this meeting would cease to happen. A suspension would allow the committee to come back at a later period of time, but it is an adjournment vote, so we will ask the clerk to read through the roll call with regard to the adjournment.(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 3)AdjournmentCommittee businessConflict of interestData Sciences Inc.Decisions in committeeGovernment contractsMotionsNGP VAN Inc.Recorded divisionsMarie-HélèneGaudreauLaurentides—LabelleChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35886ChrisWarkentinChris-WarkentinGrande Prairie—MackenzieConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/WarkentinChris_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Colleagues, the meeting is adjourned.ChrisWarkentinGrande Prairie—Mackenzie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.)): (1655)[English] I call this meeting to order. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 38 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.The Board of Internal Economy requires that the committee adhere to the following health protocols: maintain a physical distance of at least two metres from others; wear a non-medical mask unless seated, and preferably wear a mask at all times, including when seated; and maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer provided in the committee room and regularly wash your hands well with soap. As the chair, I will enforce these measures. I thank you all for your co-operation.Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25. I will outline a few rules to follow. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You may speak in the official language of your choice. At the bottom of your screen you may choose to hear floor audio, or English or French. The “raise hand” feature is on the main toolbar should you wish to speak. As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be muted. The committee clerk and I will maintain a speaking list for all members.Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, May 26, the committee is resuming its study of the economic imperative and long-term importance for small rural municipalities outside of major cities to retain new immigrants. Today is the last meeting to hear from witnesses. Today the witnesses who are appearing before the committee include Colleges and Institutes Canada, represented by Denise Amyot, president and chief executive officer, and Mr. Mark Frison, who is the president of Assiniboine Community College. We are also joined by representatives from Droit à l'Emploi: Martine Groulx, executive director; and Bruno Magnan, coordinator of immigration services. First of all, thank you to our witnesses for appearing before the committee. Thank you for your patience. I know you have been waiting since three o'clock for the meeting to start. Because of the votes in the House, it was delayed. Also, today the House will be adjourning for the summer recess.Some members have discussed with me the commitments they have after 5:30. Based on the conversations I've had with some of the members, those who reached me today from different parties, I would suggest that we hear from both of our witnesses. We will take the testimonies of the witnesses for five minutes each. After that, we'll go into committee business in camera and give drafting instructions to the analyst for the letter to the minister, pass the budget for this study, thank everyone and adjourn. If that is okay, I will proceed that way, but if members have some other suggestions, I will take those.Ms. Kwan.Rural communitiesSettlement of immigrantsJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): (1700)[English]Thanks very much, Madam Chair. I'm okay with that proposal.I would also just point out that on March 8, at that committee, I had asked the deputy to provide information related to the government's tracking of the application of the paragraph 179(b) exemption with dual intent, after the government had indicated that it has given special notice around the use of dual intent. Ms. Tapley indicated that she would get back to the committee with respect to the changes they have seen and the tracking of that information. We still have not received that information for the committee, so I wonder if the committee chair could follow that up with the deputy, get that information and share it with committee members.Committee businessSalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Ms. Kwan, for raising that. I will work with the clerk to be in touch with the ministry officials to find out if they can send us that information. As soon as we get the information, it will be circulated to all the members. Committee businessJennyKwanVancouver EastJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89346JennyKwanJenny-KwanVancouver EastNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KwanJenny_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Jenny Kwan: (1700)[English]Thank you.SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Mr. Dhaliwal.JennyKwanVancouver EastSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal (Surrey—Newton, Lib.): (1700)[English] Thank you, Madam Chair.First, how many witnesses will be speaking?SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]We have two witnesses. They will be speaking for five minutes each.SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonSukhDhaliwalSurrey—Newton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/31098SukhDhaliwalSukh-DhaliwalSurrey—NewtonLiberal CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DhaliwalSukh_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sukh Dhaliwal: (1700)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair. MP Kwan has agreed with your proposal. I also agree, but I would suggest that we give each witness a minimum of five minutes and a maximum of 10 minutes. That will give them time to get their points across. SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal.Madam Normandin.SukhDhaliwalSurrey—NewtonChristineNormandinSaint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104947ChristineNormandinChristine-NormandinSaint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/NormandinChristine_BQ.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ): (1700)[Translation]Thank you very much.Along the same lines, I think it's a shame because in some cases, this is the second time our witnesses have come here. They have been very patient and I wish I could have asked them some questions. I believe it would have been beneficial to the committee.I understand my colleagues' time constraints, but I believe the context warrants more than just five minutes. We could also remind witnesses that, if they want to add anything, they can do so in writing afterwards.SalmaZahidScarborough CentreSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Madam Normandin.Thank you to the members for their input. There seems to be agreement among all the members on what I have proposed, but if the witnesses need more than five minutes, I'm fine with that. I will not stop them. They can go ahead and provide the important testimony. If after providing testimony they feel the need to send us a written submission, they can do that as well.That being said, again, welcome, witnesses. Thank you for appearing before the committee today. We will start with Colleges and Institutes Canada, with Ms. Amyot, president and chief executive officer.Please proceed, Ms. Amyot.ChristineNormandinSaint-JeanDeniseAmyotDeniseAmyotDenise-AmyotInterventionMs. Denise Amyot (President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada): (1700)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Good afternoon. Bonjour. It's a real pleasure to be here with you today to share how colleges support the recruitment and retention of skilled immigrants and help improve labour market outcomes.Colleges play a unique role in the immigration ecosystem. They interact at many key touchpoints in the immigration journey by attracting international students, supporting the retention of immigrants through partnerships with settlement organizations, and providing skills training on the way to citizenship and beyond through re-skilling and upskilling as the labour market evolves.[Translation]Given that 95% of Canadians live within 50 kilometres of one of our campuses, this role is doubly important in rural communities. In these communities, colleges become key partners with the municipalities and employers as part of regional economic development strategies, and help to attract and retain newcomers, among other things.Colleges often custom-design short courses—and I may come back to this—to meet specific employer needs, including micro-credentials or what are known as micro-certifications.(1705)[English] For example, colleges currently support the rural and northern immigration pilot and the Atlantic immigration pilot.My three recommendations to you today relate to the rural and regional pilots and the role of international student pathways.First, as the federal government builds on the rural and regional pilots and considers other immigration strategies with municipalities, it is imperative to increase the recognition and engagement with colleges to strengthen the recruitment, the labour market integration and the retention of immigrants.Second, engage Colleges and Institutes Canada and member institutions in the development and implementation of permanent residency streams for international students graduating from colleges.Third, equip post-secondary education institutions to provide support to improve the labour market outcomes of international students.I'm tabling today Colleges and Institutes Canada's policy brief that came out last week on the role of international students in supporting Canada's immigration objectives. The second paper on the role of colleges in Canada's immigration ecosystem will follow in September.I will now turn to Mark Frison, who is the president of Assiniboine Community College in Brandon, Manitoba, with whom I'm sharing my time today. He is also a board member of Colleges and Institutes Canada.Go ahead, Mark.Atlantic Immigration PilotColleges and Institutes CanadaColleges and universitiesForeign studentsRural and Northern Immigration PilotRural communitiesSettlement of immigrantsSkilled workers and skilled tradesSalmaZahidScarborough CentreMarkFrisonMarkFrisonMark-FrisonInterventionMr. Mark Frison (President, Assiniboine Community College, Colleges and Institutes Canada): (1705)[English] Thanks, Denise.I'd like to punctuate Denise's comments about the capacity that institutions can bring to help with rural immigration efforts with three different examples that I've been involved in over the past 20 years. The first goes back to 2003-04, when I had the privilege of being involved in building an immigration strategy for Cape Breton Island. At that time, one of the members of our association, Cape Breton University, was deliberately starting to increase the number of international students they were recruiting. That number has grown dramatically over the past several years and now represents more than half of the students who attend that institution. As a result, in 2019, the population of the Cape Breton regional municipality increased for the first time in over 50 years. That's my entire lifetime. It's the first time they'd seen a population increase, and it was directly attributable to the growth in the number of international students at that particular institution.The second example comes from 2006, when I happened to be the president at a college in Swift Current, Saskatchewan. Many small and medium-sized enterprises began recruiting internationally because of labour shortages there, but there was no settlement agency in the southwest part of the province. The college stepped up and founded the settlement agency, operated it for the first few years to incubate it and then put it out on its own. I think this helps to illustrate Denise's point about how the distributed nature and reach of colleges can be used to build community capacity to support immigration.Finally, here in Brandon, the college I'm at now has grown from fewer than 30 international students in 2013 to over 600 in 2019-20. Our strategy has been to align with provincial population and labour market goals, as most of the students who come to our institution are keen to eventually become citizens.As one example, in the agriculture field, where one in five jobs in Manitoba is expected to go unfilled, we've partnered with food processors to develop a program whereby international students can come here to train and do paid work placements, which helps to offset their tuition costs and connects them with employers. This program is now in its third intake, and it has generated significant interest from families who already work at many of the food processors in the area. We know that if you can get folks to come through the program who already have family to live with in Brandon, the likelihood that they're going to settle there for the long term will be that much greater. The program has generated over 150 inquiries from family members about how they can get their family to come through it.I note, which is important for the Government of Canada, that some of these projects would not have been possible without support for infrastructure, facilities and equipment through folks at regional development agencies. Thinking about how colleges can be unlocked to help with these goals requires that we think about this broadly in terms of the different vehicles that the Government of Canada can bring to bear on such situations.Thank you.Colleges and Institutes CanadaColleges and universitiesForeign studentsForeign workersLabour shortageRural communitiesSettlement of immigrantsDeniseAmyotSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English] Thank you, Mr. Frison, for your important testimony.We will now move to Droit à l'Emploi. I will ask Martine Groulx to please start. MarkFrisonMartineGroulxMartineGroulxMartine-GroulxInterventionMrs. Martine Groulx (Executive Director, L’accueil, Accompagnement des Nouveaux arrivants et Conseils en Recherche d’Emploi, Droit à l’Emploi): (1710)[Translation]Good afternoon, everyone.I'm very pleased to be here today and to be able to speak to people across Canada.We're going to briefly present our organization, Droit à l'emploi, and our division specifically dedicated to immigrants, L'Ancre. We invite immigrants to come and drop anchor in the Richelieu River, which runs through our city.We'd also like to tell you a little about our region. We're located in Montérégie, Quebec's second largest region, with 1.6 million inhabitants. The area is very large from east to west, it takes two and a half hours to drive across it.Our region is known for its wide range of jobs in all sectors. At 5.7%, our unemployment rate is very low compared to Montreal's, which is 9.2%. Ours is the same as the average unemployment rate in Canada. Before the pandemic, we were truly fully employed. Our businesses were in dire need.We're located in Montérégie, in the City of Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, which has a population of nearly 100,000. The city is only a 30‑minute drive from Montreal.We have very few immigrants. They make up only 3.5% of our population. We really want to bring that number up, because the employment situation is very much thriving. Another good thing we have for immigrants is we provide all the same services as a big city. We're surrounded by farms and green spaces. Many seasonal workers from South America come to work during the warm season.Droit à l'emploi is a charitable organization with community experience. Our mission is to fight poverty and social exclusion through employment. We've been around for over 30 years and have about forty staff members trained in a variety of disciplines, including career counselling, psychology, human resources, administration and communications.We've developed specialized services for women, older workers and immigrants, and we provide support to over 500 people per year. Our job placement or return to school rate is 80%, which is excellent. We work with many partners, including a large network of more than 300 businesses that hire or offer internships to our participants, and our main funding sources are Quebec's Ministère du Travail, de l'Emploi et de la Solidarité sociale and Immigration, Francisation et Intégration Québec.We've been helping immigrants through their arrival process for almost 15 years. Our efforts have paid off, as more and more immigrants are settling in our area. When we opened L'Ancre in 2007, the school didn't offer any French courses for adults. Today, we have more than four French classes. Last year, L'Ancre served over 300 people from 50 different countries, mainly in Africa and Latin America.To promote the success of immigration in our area, we work both with immigrants and in the community. We're recognized in the community as the specialized resource in the field and as a mobilizing force. For the past four years, we've been organizing a roundtable for immigration partners including more than 20 active partners from all sectors, and we take action on four fronts: attraction, welcoming, integration and retention.In closing, I'd like to share some keys to successful retention that we've found work well back home. One, you need to make immigrants aware of the opportunity to move to the regions. They don't know about it. Two, you need a network of employers who are interested and willing to hire them. Three, you need to set up services to help children, their parents and those working for businesses to learn the language. Four, you need to inform and teach newcomers the values of their new community and how everything works. Five, you need to equip local stakeholders, elected officials, businesses and workers to welcome and integrate newcomers. Six, you have to raise awareness among the local people to counter prejudice and racism. Seven, you need to organize activities or events that help immigrants build intercultural bridges with members of their new community. Finally, eight, you need to provide easy access to affordable housing and transportation.(1715)I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Magnan, coordinator of L'Ancre, who will give you more details about our immigrant services.Droit à l'EmploiEmployersEmployment centres and employment assistanceLabour shortageRural communitiesSaint-Jean-sur-RichelieuSettlement of immigrantsSalmaZahidScarborough CentreBrunoMagnanBrunoMagnanBruno-MagnanInterventionMr. Bruno Magnan (Coordinator, Immigration Services, L’accueil, Accompagnement des Nouveaux arrivants et Conseils en Recherche d’Emploi, Droit à l’Emploi): (1715)[Translation]Good afternoon, everyone.We divide our services into three main components, the first one being attraction and regionalization. I don't know about other Canadian provinces, but in Quebec, 85% of immigrants settle in the greater Montreal area, while 55% of available jobs are in the regions. What we call “regionalization” serves to promote our city, its assets and available jobs.To do that, we have a strong presence [Technical difficulty] to provide sessions, training, and conferences in places frequented by immigrants or newcomers, so we can show them our region. We also go to all job fairs as a regional recruitment agency. In addition, we offer guided tours of our region to showcase its assets, including the quality of life of its businesses. We also organize recruiting activities directly with companies at job fairs or corporate tours, followed by flash interviews.In the past year, we've also explored other avenues, including “job caravans”. Here's how the process goes: a bus travels through the industrial park and each bus stop turns out to be a company. Employers share their job openings, and corporate tours are also included, because as we know, it's jobs that attract people to the area—well, training attracts them as well.The second component, which is key, is onboarding and settlement services. We help search for housing, raise landlord awareness, and show immigrants how to use services. This includes guidance for opening bank accounts, obtaining social insurance numbers and health cards, obtaining hydro and telecommunications services, as well as help to fill out various documents. We really want to make sure that people feel supported throughout the process.The third component is employment assistance services. I mentioned it earlier. We match available jobs with candidates. Sometimes the spouse of a person who has a job also needs help with their job search. We can help them prepare a resumé and cover letter and, if necessary, show them how apply for a diploma equivalency. We also offer orientation and reorientation services, as well as a job-matching service with businesses.In closing, I'd like to say that immigration is an economic asset, but it also provides considerable cultural enrichment for the regions. I sincerely believe that any policy favouring immigration to the regions must be supported and encouraged, particularly by ensuring that organizations are on hand both to properly welcome immigrants and to adequately prepare local people through awareness.If I may, I would recommend tax credits for businesses. Many entrepreneurs have talked to me about this in terms of international recruitment of temporary workers. I'm not talking about seasonal workers, I'm talking about temporary workers who intend to stay for a long time. Entrepreneurs often tell me that they would like to see a clear link between labour market needs and the invitation to come to Canada.Thank you.Droit à l'EmploiEmployment centres and employment assistanceForeign workersRural communitiesSaint-Jean-sur-RichelieuSettlement of immigrantsMartineGroulxSalmaZahidScarborough Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88950SalmaZahidSalma-ZahidScarborough CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZahidSalma_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English] Thank you, Mr. Magnan, for providing this testimony. With that, I thank all our witnesses for appearing before the committee. Once again, I'm sorry for starting late. Thanks for your patience. On behalf of all the members, I want to thank you for your time in appearing before the committee. With that, I will suspend the meeting for a few minutes and request that all members log back in for the in camera portion so that we can give the drafting instructions for the letter. I'll suspend the meeting for a few minutes. Thank you.[Proceedings continue in camera]BrunoMagnan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East—Cooksville, Lib.)): (1835)[English] We're going to get this started. Welcome to all our witnesses, of course, and welcome, colleagues. This is meeting number 25 of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights. Today we meet for a briefing on the persecution of religious and ethnic minorities in Afghanistan.To ensure an orderly meeting, I would encourage all participants to mute their microphones when they're not speaking and to address all comments through the chair. When you have 30 seconds left in your questioning time, I'll raise a 30-second note, just so you're aware. Interpretation is available to everyone through the globe icon at the bottom of your screen. It's available in English or French, and you can select one. If you are bilingual, you don't have to do anything. If you're not, select the one that would work best for you.Our witnesses for the two hours are the following. We have, from the World Sikh Organization of Canada, Balpreet Singh, legal counsel. From the United Sikhs, we have Sukhwinder Singh, national director, and Gurvinder Singh, director, international humanitarian aid. From the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation, we have Tarjinder Kaur Bhullar, director, and Jasjeet S. Ajimal, co-chair of the Save Afghan Minorities project. From the Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services, we have Ali Mirzad, senior adviser; Niamatullah Ibrahimi, lecturer, international relations, La Trobe University, Australia; Melissa Kerr Chiovenda, assistant professor, anthropology, Zayed University, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates; and finally, William Maley, emeritus professor at Australian National University, Canberra, Australia.Witnesses, each of your particular groups will have up to six minutes to make opening statements or remarks. We are going to start with the World Sikh Organization of Canada. I'd ask you to please go ahead for six minutes. Thank you.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesBalpreetSinghBalpreetSinghBalpreet-SinghInterventionMr. Balpreet Singh (Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada): (1840)[English] Good evening. Thank you. I'm a legal counsel with the World Sikh Organization of Canada. We're a non-profit human rights organization established in 1984 with a mandate to promote and protect the interests of Canadian Sikhs as well as to protect the human rights of all individuals.Almost exactly five years ago, I testified in front of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration on a similar topic to this, and I reported that Sikhs and Hindus are communities under siege in Afghanistan and face an immediate threat to their lives. They numbered approximately 2,000 at that time, from an original population that was estimated to be in the tens of thousands prior to 1992.Today, as a result of ongoing persecution and several deadly attacks, the number has dwindled to approximately 200. Those who remain in Afghanistan are in constant danger, and those who have fled live in precarious and troubled conditions in India, with no real prospects of permanent settlement.As a matter of background, my experience with the Afghan Sikh community began in November 2014 when I received a desperate series of messages from a remote Afghan Sikh community in Helmand province who were facing imminent danger. Their homes had been stoned, and their businesses had been publicly boycotted. At that time, Manmeet Singh Bhullar was a friend of mine, and I spoke to him about the situation. He made it his life's work to save that community until his tragic death in November 2015.The current situation for Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan is one of fear, persecution and imminent threat. They are unable to freely leave their homes, find employment or attend schools. Women are unable to leave their homes unaccompanied and are in constant fear of kidnapping. The remaining Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan live collectively in gurdwara, as much of their property has been taken by others. These conditions also existed in 2016. What's changed is that the situation has gotten much worse with the community being actively targeted with attacks by Daesh, who vowed to drive them out of Afghanistan.On July 1, 2018, the entire leadership of the Sikh and Hindu community was killed in a suicide bombing. Fifteen Sikhs and four Hindus, who were on their way to a meeting with Afghan president Ashraf Ghani, lost their lives. Daesh took responsibility for that attack.On March 25, 2020, just a little over a year ago, in another Daesh suicide attack, Gurdwara Har Rai Sahib was attacked in Kabul, where 25 Sikhs lost their lives, including four-year-old Tanya Kaur. The funeral for the victims of this attack the following day was also targeted with a bombing attack.In June 2020, Nidan Singh was abducted from a gurdwara and held for almost a month until his rescue. On July 18, 2020, 13-year-old Salmeet Kaur, who lost her father in the March attack, was kidnapped from another gurdwara in Kabul. On February 2, 2021, a series of bomb attacks killed one Sikh and injured two others in an area with several Sikh shops. The victim, Sunny Singh, never got to see his newborn son in India, and his wife watched his funeral on a video call.With the U.S. pullout from Afghanistan being imminent, the situation promises to get much worse for minorities. A member of the Hazara minority community said it best when he said: “To be a member of minority in Afghanistan is hell; but to be a Sikh means to be in the innermost circle of hell”.In July 2020, 429 Sikhs and Hindus fled Afghanistan for India on a special visa valid for six months. Those who fled may not face an immediate threat to their lives, but they're still suffering. There are no real permanent settlement prospects for these refugees in India, despite the claims of the Indian government. India's Hindu nationalist BJP government is playing politics as it tries to project itself as a saviour of minorities fleeing Muslim countries but, in actuality, provides no assistance to them or any options for settlement.Families that fled last July continue to be supported by Sikh organizations and private donors. There is no access to basic services such as health care and education or even vaccination for COVID. Very few of them have found employment. Eight Afghan Sikh families recently returned to Afghanistan out of desperation, a move that was celebrated by the Afghanistan government. Most of them have now returned once again back to India. One family reported that they couldn't find a hospital to care for their daughter in New Delhi, and after receiving treatment in Kabul, they returned because they felt unsafe remaining there.Since 2015, we've repeatedly called on the Canadian government to create a special program for Afghan Sikhs and Hindus so that they can come to safety in Canada. In July 2020, 25 Canadian MPs from the CPC, NDP and Greens wrote to the Minister of Immigration for this special program, but I'm not aware of a reply to this letter, let alone any progress in this regard.After the March attack, there was a weekly call set up with a representative of CIC, which was then reduced to biweekly and then cancelled altogether, with no reply to our emails since August 2020.(1845) The question isn't whether there will be another attack. The question is when the next attack will be. These are extremely vulnerable individuals who do not have a future in Afghanistan or in India. They're looking desperately to Canada to save their lives. It's been frustrating to advocate without real results on their behalf for this long. The Sikh community is willing and able to pay for all the resettlement costs, and has done so for the small number of Sikh refugee families who have arrived from the Helmand group. We just need the government to give us the permission to bring them here.Those are my comments for now.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsDeath threatsHinduism and HindusMinoritiesRefugee sponsorshipRefugeesSikhism and SikhsTerrorism and terroristsViolent crimeWorld Sikh Organization of CanadaPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1845)[English]That was great. You were ahead of time. Thank you very much. We'll move now to United Sikhs for six minutes.BalpreetSinghSukhwinderSinghSukhwinderSinghSukhwinder-SinghInterventionMr. Sukhwinder Singh (National Director, United Sikhs): (1845)[English]Hello, respected members of the committee. Thank you for allowing United Sikhs to speak for Afghan minorities.We are a United Nations-affiliated international non-profit NGO to empower those in need, especially disadvantaged and minority communities around the world, with humanitarian aid, advocacy and education programs. We have 10 chapters in Asia, Europe and North America. We also have an office in Peshawar, Afghanistan.Ghazni, Jalalabad and Kabul are the three major cities in Afghanistan where minority families are concentrated in large numbers. United Sikhs has been providing legal assistance and humanitarian aid in these cities for the past many years. Our first case in Afghanistan started in 2010 with Harender Kaur and her daughter, to whom we provided help in taking asylum in Canada with the help of the Canadian government, because her husband was kidnapped and then beheaded. After that, so many times minorities were attacked brutally. They were forced to pay jeziah. They had verbal and written threats, including ultimatums to leave the country, and social boycotts, not even drinking the water from the fountains in front of their shops and in front of their houses. They were called Kafirs. Kids couldn't go to school. Women and young girls couldn't go out because of kidnapping threats. This was the life they were living in Afghanistan.Then there was the gurdwara attack in 2020. That was the day when all the NGOs and Afghan Sikhs and Hindus decided to move temporarily to India so that we could bring them to safe places like Canada and the U.S.A. As Balpreet said, a total of 95 families have reached New Delhi, India, from different parts of Afghanistan. United Sikhs and other NGOs are the only help for them. They have no help from the Indian government, and not even their IDs. Last year United Sikhs started a helpdesk in New Delhi for these families. They getting medical treatment, including special tests as needed; the urgent assistance needed by pregnant mothers in government hospitals; assistance with the life-sustaining needs of newborn babies, including immunization; emergency medical procedures; the facilitation of UNHCR-related issues, such as the issuing of refugee cards and the renewal of cards for previously Afghan nationals in New Delhi; ration distribution to needy Afghan families; COVID-19 rapid tests; and assistance with temporary settlement of Afghan families in India.What are the challenges they have now? They do not have any identification. If they make any identification, then they cannot get their refugee cards and refugee status. They are just in between. The UNHCR says they came to India on a visa, which is not suitable to get refugee status. These are their challenges. Their kids cannot get education. They have no jobs. They're not getting proper medical treatment. Their only hope is us—the Canadian government—so I will make this request of the Canadian government: Please stop a cultural genocide.I will ask Gurvinder Singh to add a few more points, please, and then wrap it up.Thank you.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsHinduism and HindusHumanitarian assistance and workersIntimidationMinoritiesRefugeesSikhism and SikhsUnited SikhsViolent crimePeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleGurvinderSinghGurvinderSinghGurvinder-SinghInterventionMr. Gurvinder Singh (Director, International Humanitarian Aid, United Sikhs): (1850)[English]First and foremost, we thank everyone for allowing us this gathering and for listening to this testimony about what is happening and what has transpired over the past many years.There are a few numbers that I think are striking. Over 100,000 Sikhs and Hindus resided in Afghanistan just a few decades ago. That number dwindled down to 626 prior to the Kabul attack. That number is now below 100. This goes to show that a vibrant, robust community, which has its cultural heritage, which has its religious heritage and which has its economic structure embedded in the nation, is gone. It has been dismantled. It has had a genocide perpetrated against it. We're concerned about our religious institutions and about our cultural institutions, which are hundreds of years old, and the caretaking of those. We're concerned about the safety and security of the community. If the Canadian government does not step up, then this will be known in history as a time when a minority was forcefully evicted, eradicated, killed and completely decimated from the map of a nation. I think it inherently behooves us to step up and really provide assistance to those who—literally—have no one else to turn to. Thank you.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionHinduism and HindusMinoritiesSikhism and SikhsUnited SikhsSukhwinderSinghPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1850)[English] Thank you.Now we will hear from the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation for six minutes.GurvinderSinghTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinderKaur-BhullarInterventionMs. Tarjinder Kaur Bhullar (Director, Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation): (1850)[English] Thank you to all of you. Thank you to the witnesses who spoke before me. The invitation to appear before this committee is important for us. I appreciate the efforts made to have us a part of this. For some of you this may be the first time that you are hearing about the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation. Ours is an existence that is equally filled with pride and with pain. This foundation is in honour of a man whose presence is missed by his community, and most of all by his family. Not a single day goes by when we do not wish that he was still here with us, that he was speaking to you. What we do carry with us are his values and his work, and they are a guiding force for us.In late 2014 Manmeet began the Save Afghan Minorities project, as Balpreet mentioned. As his sister, I was used to his bold ideas, his chicken scratches on a notepad that made no sense to anyone else but gave him the clarity that he needed in order to get something done. I knew his ability to engross others in his plans and his perseverance. Every single step back for him was a reminder to fight harder, think bigger. Most of all, I was used to his singular focus on serving others. It was his mantra, his faith, his purpose. He took meetings across cities in Canada. He travelled to India. He went to countries in Europe, relentless in his pursuit to find a viable solution for Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan who lived a daily reality void of religious freedom, having no access to education, no safety and definitely no peace. The only constant for them was danger. Time and time again, no matter what solution he pursued, no matter where he went, he knew that the country best-suited to help these children, men and women, and elderly was his own country. Canada was the place that could and should serve as a beacon of hope for these families, as it has for my own family, his family, and for countless others who have shown that, through the course of time, Canada is the place where you can make a life that allows you to thrive.Calling it his life's most important work and making it his primary focus every waking moment, Manmeet charted a path for these families. First, the goal was to get them out of Afghanistan and imminent danger, and then to find them a way to get refugee status granted and, eventually, a new home and a new life here in Canada.The first handful of families were guided out of Afghanistan through his coordination of every small or big logistical detail that needed to be done. Then Manmeet's own life was taken in his final act of kindness toward another human being.For anyone who has experienced the sudden and traumatic loss of a loved one, my heart holds your pain and shares your grief. In losing Manmeet it became clear that while our lives would never be the same again, the lives of others were in jeopardy, complete strangers who were relying on him to survive. The profound responsibility he felt was now the responsibility that we had to carry on for him and because of him.Since Manmeet's passing, this work has been all-consuming, with daily phone calls from families in India and Afghanistan, individuals who speak about an existence that so many of us are oblivious to or are too privileged to ever know anything about. A visit by someone to the market in Afghanistan leads to hot oil being spilled on their body. A death of a family member means funeral rites cannot be performed as per their faith. A woman walking with her child must hide her own identity and conform to the religious identity of others. Families are in dire need of basic medical attention for their elderly parents.We have worked with the Canadian government since 2015, after Manmeet's passing, to settle 74 individuals here in Canada, with 111 in the queue. These people have come from the Helmand province. At that point, they were the most in danger and in dire need of assistance. This is not a task we have done alone. It is because of community members, organizations, donors and volunteers that we have been able to do this. We have been focused on the approach that first we make sure these individuals survive, and then we enable them to thrive.Each arrival of a family renews our commitments to Manmeet's vision of giving these families and these children a fighting chance. We see them attending school, getting a driver's licence, taking English classes and volunteering themselves. It provides us with the solid belief that we must continue this work and we must help the families that are remaining.At every turn I have worked with ministers in this government. I advocate to them, they advocate for us and we have made progress. I've been raised to give credit where credit is due, and so Minister Sajjan, Minister Mendicino and Minister Bains as well as many other people across the aisle and within the Liberal caucus have championed this.(1855) Soon the remaining families that first went to India will be eligible to settle here in Canada. The last [Technical difficulty—Editor] pandemic has brought with it its own challenges, many beyond anyone's control. Through it all, we have had a steady and consistent communication with the government, finding a viable way through this all, and we will make sure that this work is done. We owe it to fellow members of humanity and I owe it to my brother.Thank you.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionManmeet Singh Bhullar FoundationMinoritiesRefugeesSettlement of immigrantsPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1855)[English]Thank you for those remarks.We are going to hear now from the Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services for up to six minutes. I believe Ali Mirzad is going to be speaking.Tarjinder KaurBhullarAliMirzadAliMirzadAli-MirzadInterventionMr. Ali Mirzad (Senior Advisor, Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services): (1855)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English]On behalf of the Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services, I thank this committee and the Canadian Parliament for granting us this opportunity to raise the voices of the many thousands of Hazara victims who have perished in Afghanistan and the many thousands more who continue—AfghanistanCanadian Hazara Humanitarian ServicesCivil and human rightsMinoritiesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleManinderSidhuBrampton East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105045ManinderSidhuManinder-SidhuBrampton EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SidhuManinder_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Maninder Sidhu (Brampton East, Lib.): (1855)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.I think the channels are crossed.AliMirzadPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1855)[English]We have some challenges with the interpretation. The English and the French are crossed over. I apologize to our witness. Could we just start from the beginning once again?ManinderSidhuBrampton EastManinderSidhuBrampton East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105045ManinderSidhuManinder-SidhuBrampton EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SidhuManinder_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Maninder Sidhu: (1855)[English]Mr. Chair, it might be the setting at the bottom. He may have it in French.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1855)[English]Mr. Mirzad, if you could just check your settings on the globe icon at the bottom. You have to select the language that you are comfortable with and that you prefer: English, French or, if you're bilingual, you can leave it without selecting either.ManinderSidhuBrampton EastAliMirzadAliMirzadAli-MirzadInterventionMr. Ali Mirzad: (1855)[English]Yes, I have it as neither. It's off.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1855)[English]It's off. Okay. Are you bilingual? Do you speak French?AliMirzadAliMirzadAliMirzadAli-MirzadInterventionMr. Ali Mirzad: (1855)[English]Yes.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1855)[English]Okay. Let's try that one more time. Thank you, MP Sidhu, for that. We'll take it from the start, please.AliMirzadAliMirzadAliMirzadAli-MirzadInterventionMr. Ali Mirzad: (1855)[English]It's no problem. Give me two minutes extra, please.[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English]On behalf of the Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services, I thank this committee and the Canadian Parliament for granting us the opportunity to raise the voices of the many thousands of Hazara victims who have perished in Afghanistan and the many thousands more who continue to suffer systemic persecution.[Translation]The Hazara people have suffered more than a century of constant persecution because of their religious beliefs, their ethnicity and their—AfghanistanCanadian Hazara Humanitarian ServicesCivil and human rightsMinoritiesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1855)[English]Excuse me, I....Oh, now I'm hearing it. I wasn't getting the interpretation either. AliMirzadAliMirzadAliMirzadAli-MirzadInterventionMr. Ali Mirzad: (1855)[English]Should I continue? Okay.[Translation]The Hazara people have suffered more than a century of constant persecution because of their religious beliefs, their ethnicity and their physical and facial characteristics.At the end of the 19th century, thousands, if not millions, of Hazara were massacred, forcibly uprooted and sold into slavery by the Emir of Afghanistan, Abdur Rahman Khan.(1900)[English]Through royal decrees, he openly labelled Hazaras as “heretic foreigners”. This paved the way for persecution that continues to this day.In 1998, the Taliban issued a similar decree continuing that campaign by killing thousands of Hazaras in the cities of Mazar-e-Sharif and Bamiyan alone.In post-9/11 Afghanistan, Hazaras continue to be the subject of daily attacks, be it within the sanctuary of religious places, in gymnasiums, in the streets or on public buses. Attacks such as the May 2020 assault on the Médecins sans frontières maternity ward in Kabul's Dasht-e-Barchi, where infants still in incubators were targeted, or the May 2021 attack on the Sayed Al-Shuhada, all-girls school where as many as 94 young girls died, have proven that Hazaras are a target regardless of age or gender.To put it simply, the life of a Hazara in Afghanistan is that of a death row inmate living on borrowed time, awaiting an impending execution.For years around the globe and indeed across this nation, coast to coast to coast, Hazaras have cried for help. We humbly request to this committee, and through it, the Canadian Parliament, to, first, formally recognize the 1891-93 ethnic cleansing perpetrated against the Hazara as a genocide; second, designate September 25 as a Hazara genocide memorial day; and, third, support Bill C-287 to ensure that all development assistance sent from Canada to Afghanistan is contributing to the peace and security of the region for all peoples.[Translation]At this point, Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the committee once more for giving me the opportunity to testify before you today.My thanks also go to the three highly distinguished individuals representing our association. We have with us Dr. Melissa Kerr Chiovenda, assistant professor of anthropology, Zayed University, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates and Dr. William Maley, emeritus professor of diplomacy at the Australian National University.[English] We also have Dr. Niamatullah Ibrahimi, lecturer in international relations at La Trobe University, Melbourne, Australia.Thank you, Mr. Chair.AfghanistanC-287, An Act to amend the Official Development Assistance Accountability ActCanadian Hazara Humanitarian ServicesCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionHazarasMinoritiesViolent crimePeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1900)[English]Thank you.Thank you to the organizations and your spokespersons who made the opening statements and to all the witnesses who are with us here today. We are now going to move to the members' question time. We'll start with the first round. The first round will be seven minutes for each member who will be questioning. We are going to start with MP Sidhu for seven minutes.AliMirzadManinderSidhuBrampton East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105045ManinderSidhuManinder-SidhuBrampton EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SidhuManinder_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Maninder Sidhu: (1900)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I was fortunate enough to know Manmeet Singh Bhullar before he passed. His dedication to service is a model for all of us here who are working to make Canada and the world a better place. In light of that, I want to talk about the success that the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation has achieved in his memory. Of those Afghan Sikhs who have so far arrived in Canada, can you please outline how they are doing? Mr. Chair, through you, this question is for the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsImmigration and immigrantsMinoritiesSikhism and SikhsPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinderKaur-BhullarInterventionMs. Tarjinder Kaur Bhullar: (1900)[English]Thank you, MP Sidhu. I would be remiss if I gave up this opportunity to say that Manmeet would be incredibly overjoyed to see you as a member of Parliament. I think he would want to answer this question himself.The families are thriving. That is the ultimate goal that guides us through this work. It is not easy work. It is not work that we can shy away from. Many of them have long-term full-time jobs. These are families who now have children going to school for the first time. They are taking English classes. They have a robust connection to the gurdwara in northeast Calgary, as well as the gurdwaras in Surrey, where they are residing. They constantly keep in contact and talk about what they can do next, about what is their future. It sounds simple to us, but it's remarkable when you think about where they came from.The biggest thing, I think, is that you see the measure of this project and the measure of the lifelong impact we will have from the young children we are looking at. Some of them started off completely shy, too shy to even say hello. Now they are reading in English and speaking English, and genuinely, when you see them, they're coming up to you to say hello and talk to you about what their life here is all about. As cliché as it sounds, they are living a normal Canadian life. That is absolutely amazing when you think of where they were just a few short years ago.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsImmigration and immigrantsMinoritiesSikhism and SikhsManinderSidhuBrampton EastManinderSidhuBrampton East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105045ManinderSidhuManinder-SidhuBrampton EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SidhuManinder_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Maninder Sidhu: (1905)[English]Thank you for that answer, Ms. Bhullar. Definitely, I really appreciate all your hard work. It's great to hear that the Afghan Sikh community is settling in well.Ms. Bhullar, over the past year, I think we can all understand that the COVID-19 crisis has slowed down your work to welcome members of the Afghan Sikh community to Canada. I would like to get a better understanding of what work the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation has done in partnership with the Government of Canada over the past year. In your opening statement, you mentioned that there will be a path forward once conditions allow for it. First, I want to thank you again for your advocacy, as well as all the work over the past number of years that the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation has done to help Afghan Sikhs resettle, and for your support here in Canada. For this program, are you the sole partner with the government? Will it be an effective path for you to continue welcoming members of the Afghan Sikh community to Canada?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesSettlement of immigrantsTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinderKaur-BhullarInterventionMs. Tarjinder Kaur Bhullar: (1905)[English]Yes, there's no doubt that every single part of our lives has been impacted by COVID. This project is no different. When we look at what is happening in India and when we see that people are fighting for even the basics such as access to oxygen, we understand that offices can't work like they used to, but make no mistake: There has been work done behind the scenes, between us as the foundation and the Government of Canada, to make sure we are in a place such that when those restrictions for travel are lifted and when India is in a better place to process these applications and it is safe to do so, we will see an influx of the remaining families from the cohort that arrived from Helmand making their way into Canada. That has involved our not stopping our pursuit of constantly being in touch and making sure that we have a process in place that allows us to have, basically, everything done besides getting these individuals on a plane when it is safe to do so. We also have to keep in mind that a lot of the challenges we face are from a government or a country that is.... India is dealing with its own challenges at the moment. All of these factor in. In no way have we stalled or said that we are on pause. In fact, what we have made very clear is how we can work together to make sure that we get everything set in motion so that really the only thing left, once we are in a better place with the pandemic, is to be at the airport, meeting these people as they arrive.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesSettlement of immigrantsManinderSidhuBrampton EastManinderSidhuBrampton East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105045ManinderSidhuManinder-SidhuBrampton EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SidhuManinder_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Maninder Sidhu: (1905)[English] Thank you, Ms. Bhullar.It would be interesting to learn more about the process of how you support members of the Afghan Sikh community. Could you provide us some insights into that as well?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesSettlement of immigrantsTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinderKaur-BhullarInterventionMs. Tarjinder Kaur Bhullar: (1905)[English]Absolutely. As I mentioned in my opening statement, these families are people we are in constant contact with. They have many conduits within the community, and the foundation is definitely one of them. As a family, we support them when they are in India. As recently as about a month and a half ago, the concern was that they did not have an adequate supply of food because of the pandemic. Of course, it is everyone's responsibility to make sure that we help each other. From a sponsorship point of view, we really work closely with our sponsors and donors who have come on board with us. We have the primary responsibility to ensure that when these families arrive in Canada, we are providing them with every basic need that they have as well as setting them up for success. That means providing them with housing, providing them with every single supply they need in that house and setting them up with settlement agencies to make sure they receive their health care cards, get proper medical attention—as you can imagine, many of them have never seen a doctor for so long—and enrol the children in school. Once the children are in school, it can be something as simple as.... When the pandemic hit, it was all about making sure they had access to tablets and laptops to make sure they were able to continue their education. That's a responsibility we have based on the principles that are set out through the private sponsorship agreement.My dad often says that these are people who have become extended family. Whether it's the birth of a new child or a school milestone, it's something we take part in.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesSettlement of immigrantsManinderSidhuBrampton EastManinderSidhuBrampton East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105045ManinderSidhuManinder-SidhuBrampton EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SidhuManinder_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Maninder Sidhu: (1905)[English]Thank you for that very detailed answer, Ms. Bhullar. We're all Canadians. We wear our hearts on our sleeves. That's what we're known for. It's great that you mentioned that it's not just your foundation. It's with partnerships with the community and other organizations and associations. They've all stepped up and come together to support the Afghan Sikh community.Mr. Chair, I have five seconds left, so I may not have time for another question, but I do want to take this moment to thank all the other witnesses for being here as well.Tarjinder KaurBhullarPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1910)[English]Thank you, MP Sidhu. Your time has just come to an end.We're moving now to MP Chiu for seven minutes.ManinderSidhuBrampton EastKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu (Steveston—Richmond East, CPC): (1910)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The questions I have are for representatives from both the Sikh and Hazara communities. I have questions for each, so I'll begin with the Sikh community.The two communities, unfortunately, have similar backgrounds in that they're being persecuted and rejected by the native Afghanistan population. Therefore, they're facing persecution and imminent danger of being wiped out. My first question is this: Could you comment on the home country's advocacy? I heard, through you guys, for example, that India has been posturing to receive refugees from Afghanistan, but what about Iran? Is it helping the Hazara community? In the case of India, what prevents them from settling in the Punjab province area?The second question would go through post-COVID Canada support. I will talk about that later in the interest of time. With regard to the first question, I'd like you to comment on the home country, what I call the home country's advocacy on their behalf. Let's go with the Punjab province and also the Sikh community. AfghanistanCivil and human rightsIndiaMinoritiesRefugeesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleBalpreetSinghBalpreetSinghBalpreet-SinghInterventionMr. Balpreet Singh: (1910)[English]Yes, I can comment on that. Like I said, the Indian government is currently a right-wing Hindu government. It postures itself as being a protector of minorities that have fled Muslim countries. In fact, the protection it provides is, essentially, just a visitor's visa. It's a six-month visitor's visa. In terms of actual steps, there's nothing. There's no path to permanent settlement in India. India is not a signatory to the Refugee Convention. There have been some glimpses of hope, but they are not for the recent refugee arrivals. For example, there's a controversial citizenship amendment act that was passed. It excludes Muslim refugees, but it opens the door to non-Muslim refugees. However, it only applies to refugees who arrived before December 31, 2014. After being passed over a year ago, the rules for it still haven't been framed. There have been certain districts for which the government announced applications would be accepted for refugees, but it's a completely random process and it's only certain districts, at random, from the Indian map.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsIndiaMinoritiesRefugeesKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1910)[English] Thank you.BalpreetSinghJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeetS--AjimalInterventionMr. Jasjeet S. Ajimal (Co-Chair, Save Afghan Minorities Project, Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation): (1910)[English] May I add? Like Mr. Singh mentioned, in India's situation, the population is extremely precarious. The local populations are well aware that the Afghans arriving are precarious, so these Afghans have been the target of consistent crime. Their houses have been broken into. Local authorities harass them when they try to use public transportation. When they try to go to the hospitals in a public setting, they're not able to do so. Local organizations and organizations abroad are helping the families with medical care.The precarious situation continues to get worse. As scarcity hits India, this population is targeted further. They are then isolated by locals, harassed, persecuted and the cycle continues.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsIndiaManmeet Singh Bhullar FoundationMinoritiesRefugeesKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1910)[English]Okay. I'd like to—Jasjeet S.AjimalPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1910)[English]I just saw Mr. Maley's hand up and I believe I also see Ms. Kerr's hand up.Mr. Chiu, I don't know if you'd like them to also answer, but they do have their hands up.KennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1910)[English]Yes, I'd also like to hear witnesses from the Hazara community. Why don't we spend the next 30 seconds on further comment from the Sikh community, please?PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleBalpreetSinghBalpreetSinghBalpreet-SinghInterventionMr. Balpreet Singh: (1910)[English]I can just say that Sikh refugees initially left Afghanistan en masse in 1992. They tried to settle in India at that time. They returned en masse again because there were no prospects for them there. The situation has seriously deteriorated since 1992. Currently, there are no prospects for them. For example, the family I mentioned can't get health care for their daughter, so they have to go back to Afghanistan to go to a hospital. They don't feel safe there, so they have to come back to Delhi. It's just a really bad situation.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsIndiaMinoritiesRefugeesKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1915)[English]Thank you.In the interest of time, let's switch over to the Hazara community. Mr. Maley.BalpreetSinghWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley (Emeritus Professor, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia, Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services): (1915)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I think we should be wary of seeing Iran as a protective player with respect to Hazaras from Afghanistan. Firstly, Hazaras are often located in vulnerable places that are quite remote from the territory of Iran, but more seriously, Iran has historically not been a particularly generous host to Hazara refugees. In recent times, there's been plenty of evidence of Hazaras being forcibly deported from Iran to Afghanistan. There's also been evidence of Hazaras being press-ganged by Iranian agencies for use in other areas where Iran finds itself involved in proxy combat. It's actually quite a dangerous environment for Hazaras in Iran, who have long experienced quite a lot of discrimination at the hands of the Iranian state.AfghanistanCanadian Hazara Humanitarian ServicesCivil and human rightsIranMinoritiesRefugeesKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ): (1915)[Translation]A point of order, Mr. Chair.WilliamMaleyAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1915)[Translation]Unfortunately, the interpreter cannot translate what Mr. Maley is saying.AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1915)[English]Okay. I don't know if we checked that. I've stopped the time, so we still have a little while.AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1915)[Translation]The interpreter is telling me that there is a problem with the sound.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1915)[English]It's a technical issue. Did that not come up during the testing, Clerk? Mr. Maley, could you just say a couple of sentences?AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley: (1915)[English]Yes. The situation for Hazaras is dangerous.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1915)[English]I don't know if that's any better. Did you change something on your computer or on your headset from when you got tested to when you started answering the question?WilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley: (1915)[English]No. If your team wants to identify a particular setting in the interpretation button, I'm happy to go to that. I'm on “off” at the moment.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1915)[English]Okay. They say it's technical. It's not.... Clerk, do you have any thoughts?WilliamMaleyEricaPereiraEricaPereiraErica-PereiraInterventionThe Clerk of the Committee (Ms. Erica Pereira): (1915)[English]Yes, and could you speak a little bit slower, please? Try that.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley: (1915)[English]Okay. Mr. Chair, should I repeat the points that I made earlier for the benefit of your colleague?EricaPereiraPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1915)[English] We're just trying to fix whatever technical issues we have. I don't know if it's the Aussie accent, but we'll see how that goes.WilliamMaleyEricaPereiraEricaPereiraErica-PereiraInterventionThe Clerk: (1915)[English]Mr. Chair, when he was speaking slowly and asking to repeat, the interpreter was able to follow.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1915)[English]Mr. Maley, we'd ask that you just slow your cadence in terms of your speaking.I stopped the time, so I think we have, I'd say, a minute left, MP Chiu. Then we'll go to the next member.EricaPereiraKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1915)[English]Mr. Chair, I would like to give 15 seconds for Professor Maley to finish his comment. After that, I'd like to have Ms. Kerr comment.Thank you.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1915)[English]Go ahead.KennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley: (1915)[English] Thank you, Mr. Chair.My broad point is that Iran is not a reliable source of protection for Hazaras who are vulnerable within Afghanistan. It really falls in the lap of the wider world to perform some protective responsibilities with respect to those people.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsIranMinoritiesRefugeesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleMelissaKerr ChiovendaMelissaKerr ChiovendaMelissa-KerrChiovendaInterventionMs. Melissa Kerr Chiovenda (Assistant Professor of Anthropology, Zayed University, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates, Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services): (1915)[English] I would like to add that I'm in full agreement with everything that Professor Maley said. In addition to not being a reliable source of protection and being quite abusive towards Hazaras, Iran.... There is not really any mechanism for Hazaras to gain permanent asylum in Iran, despite the fact that they have the same Shia religion. People, refugees who have been in Iran even for generations, Hazaras who have been born in Iran, often find themselves just depending on the whim of the government. All of a sudden they are in the same situation where they might be facing deportation or might be facing something else. You find that not only are Hazara refugees fleeing Afghanistan but also there are a number of Hazara refugees who are fleeing the situation in Iran, which they may have actually been born into, so Iran definitely can't be counted on.AfghanistanCanadian Hazara Humanitarian ServicesCivil and human rightsIranMinoritiesRefugeesWilliamMaleyPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1920)[English]Thank you. That does conclude the time.MelissaKerr ChiovendaKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (1920)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1920)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chiu.We are moving to MP Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe. For those who are not bilingual, you may want to select “English” or “French”, whatever you may need, if you need interpretation.Alexis, you're on.KennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1920)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to thank the House interpreters. They are doing an exceptional job in these times of pandemic, allowing us to hold these meetings with no problem.I also want to thank the witnesses; they are teaching us as well as shedding light on current events. For that, I am very grateful to them.This question is for all the witnesses, and I would like the floor to be open to anyone who wants to respond, because each one of you has your own experiences.My question is quite general. Our research tells us that Afghanistan's constitution states that followers of religions other than Islam are free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites within the limits of the law. Can you tell us what those limits are?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullah-IbrahimiInterventionDr. Niamatullah Ibrahimi (Lecturer in International Relations, La Trobe University, Australia, Canadian Hazara Humanitarian Services): (1920)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chairman and honourable members of the committee.With regard to this question, as you mentioned, in Afghanistan, it's another foreign constitution and an extended set of provisos that—AfghanistanCanadian Hazara Humanitarian ServicesCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1920)[Translation]I am sorry to have to raise a point of order.The interpreter apologizes, but she is unfortunately unable to do her job.NiamatullahIbrahimiEricaPereiraEricaPereiraErica-PereiraInterventionThe Clerk: (1920)[English]Mr. Ibrahimi, could you please unplug your headset and then plug it in again to make sure that it is properly selected?AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullah-IbrahimiInterventionDr. Niamatullah Ibrahimi: (1920)[English] Okay I was trying to say that in the 2004 constitution there is an extended set of rights granted to Afghan citizens that includes the right to practise their religion.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesEricaPereiraEricaPereiraEricaPereiraErica-PereiraInterventionThe Clerk: (1920)[English]Mr. Chair, the sound is not adequate.NiamatullahIbrahimiPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1920)[English] I'm sorry, Mr. Ibrahimi. We're going to have to move to another witness until....EricaPereiraNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullah-IbrahimiInterventionDr. Niamatullah Ibrahimi: (1920)[English] Okay.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1920)[Translation]Mr. Chair, this is the committee's final meeting. We can talk about it later…NiamatullahIbrahimiPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1920)[English]I am not receiving interpretation.AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1920)[Translation]This is the committee's final meeting before the break. I certainly do not want Mr. Ibrahimi to have no opportunity to speak. I think we have a technical difficulty. I would let Mr. Ibrahimi…PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1920)[English]I think we'll have to fix his headset. Do you want to hear from another witness besides Mr. Ibrahimi?AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1920)[Translation]No, I would like to hear what Mr. Ibrahimi has to say anyway.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullah-IbrahimiInterventionDr. Niamatullah Ibrahimi: (1920)[English] Would you like me to try one more time?AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1920)[Translation]I will go onto the floor channel and listen in English.Our interpreters are unfortunately unable to do their work because of the technical difficulties. I am prepared to get this done before the break. So, despite the Official Languages Act—NiamatullahIbrahimiPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1925)[English]Mr. Ibrahimi, you will have to wear a headset.AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullah-IbrahimiInterventionDr. Niamatullah Ibrahimi: (1925)[English] I'll try to be slow and brief.Afghanistan's 2004 constitution provides an extensive set of rights for citizens of Afghanistan. That includes the right to practise religion, including for non-Muslims, but in practice, people of various religious backgrounds, including many Muslims, face daily discrimination and persecution at different levels. I would like to echo what members of the Sikh community have shared today, because as an Afghan human rights worker, I have also researched the Afghan Sikh community situation in Afghanistan. I would also like to remind you of the fact that behind me are the images of the young girls who died on May 8 at the Sayed Al-Shuhada high school in the Dasht-e-Barchi area of Kabul. This is an area that is populated by Shia Hazara Muslims. That attack took 85 young people. Many were students in years 7 and 11. These were typical teenagers that you would find anywhere around the world, and they would have dreams to live a normal life.As we can see, the Taliban is stepping up its attacks in Afghanistan. In many ways, that is a reversal of some of those rights that were provided to different groups in Afghanistan. While Hazaras are the primary targets of the escalation of violence and attacks across Afghanistan and Kabul, there are also increasing attacks and restrictions placed on other groups. It is difficult to be in Afghanistan if you are, let us say, a liberal Afghan. We have seen a series of targeted assassinations directed towards Afghan journalists, society groups and people who hold different views that are incompatible with those of the Taliban.At the centre of all of this is the fact that these attacks are directed at Hazaras in Dasht-e-Barchi, this area in Kabul. For these Hazaras, this area represents much of what has been achieved over the past 20 years of international intervention in Afghanistan. Now, all of those gains are under threat. You see young women going to schools—AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1925)[English]I apologize. I am going to have to interject. I understand that the way that this is working for the interpreters would be in contravention of the Official Languages Act. It is not possible. We cannot continue this. We are going to move to another witness due to these issues. I apologize.NiamatullahIbrahimiJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeetS--AjimalInterventionMr. Jasjeet S. Ajimal: (1925)[English]Mr. Chair, I'm happy to speak to the matter.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1925)[English]Yes, Mr. Ajimal.I saw Mr. Ajimal's hand go up first and then Mr. Singh's.Jasjeet S.AjimalJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeetS--AjimalInterventionMr. Jasjeet S. Ajimal: (1925)[English] Carrying on from what Mr. Ibrahimi was saying, these aren't isolated incidents. From the Sikh community, we had a member who went from Helmand to Kabul, and before travelling to India, he was shot in a populated marketplace. These are targeted attacks on religious minorities. Although laws may be in place, these laws are not enforced. Afghanistan does not have a stable grip on the situation. They're not able to protect members of the Sikh community nor, as colleagues have stated, members of the Hazara community.Although laws may be in place, they're not practised. These are policies that are just on paper. In reality, these folks are targeted. They are killed in populated markets. They are kidnapped. They are not able to practice their faith whatsoever. There are targeted bombing attacks, and if they try to assemble in any shape or form, they are attacked. A number of cases have occurred and have been widely reported. What we fear are future attacks, which as my colleague Mr. Singh stated, are imminent. It's just a matter of time.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1925)[English]Just so everybody is aware, the clerk did inform me that we were in contravention and that's why we had to move away from Mr. Ibrahimi. I've added a couple of extra minutes to your time, Alexis, so you still have another two and half minutes.Jasjeet S.AjimalAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1930)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I think that Mr. Singh wanted to add something. I would be curious to hear what he has to say.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleGurvinderSinghGurvinderSinghGurvinder-SinghInterventionMr. Gurvinder Singh: (1930)[English]Yes, sir. First of all, thank you for the question. There are two things. One thing is the law in written format, and then the law in practice.It's completely different when you go to practice. Sikhs, Hindus and minorities have actually had to pay the jeziah, which is a tax for all non-Muslims living in Afghanistan. That's first and foremost.Second, the targeting and wanton destruction of minorities is at such a state that after the Kabul bomb blast, Sikhs were not even allowed to have a funeral procession in peace. The procession was targeted. There were bombs placed along the route. There were bombs placed in front of Sikh homes and gurdwaras. Then, after the procession actually got to the funeral pyre to do the funeral, another bomb went off. This is continued targeting and continued assassination. In short form, it's a complete genocide of minorities who are at any odds with those who do not profess their faith. Again, even to live, you are just trying to breathe. It's difficult because [Technical difficulty—Editor] simply to exist. You have to live in inferiority and you have to live in fear.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1930)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Singh.I would now like to hear from Ms. Chiovenda, if we have any time left.GurvinderSinghMelissaKerr ChiovendaMelissaKerr ChiovendaMelissa-KerrChiovendaInterventionMs. Melissa Kerr Chiovenda: (1930)[English] I would just like to add, in response to this question about whether laws are enforced, that yes, this is part of the constitution. In some instances, the Afghan government has in fact contradicted this. There was, for example, a Hazara who was placed in jail for blasphemy because of something he wrote regarding Buddhism and the Bamiyan Buddha statues, which you guys might know had been exploded by the Taliban in 2001. A lot of these actions, events and bombings, in the case of Hazaras, of mosques and Shia mosques and centres, or the attacks on the Sikh community as well, are not carried out by the Afghan government, of course. The Afghan government is not, however, providing adequate protection. We don't know for sure if they're unable or unwilling, but at this point it doesn't really matter. They're either unable or unwilling.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1930)[English]Thank you, Ms. Chiovenda.Now we're moving to MP McPherson for seven minutes.MelissaKerr ChiovendaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): (1930)[English] Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I want to thank all of our witnesses today. This is incredibly compelling testimony and very important information for us to be gathering from you. The question that I really want to understand and maybe get quite a bit of clarity on if I could, is the current context we're in. Of course, we know right now that we are in the middle of a COVID-19 pandemic. Different places around the world are responding differently and are at different points in recovery from that, but we also know that the United States is pulling out and that Canada's pulling out after spending a significant investment in Afghanistan, after spending significant time talking about the importance of ensuring that rights for women and girls are protected, for example. I'm just wondering. Has this violence against both the Hazara and the Sikh populations...? What does it look like? Has it gone up significantly? Has the increase been significant? How much of that is related to COVID? The challenges around COVID, is that providing cover for what's being done by the Taliban? How much of that is because of the withdrawal? I would like to get an understanding of the context in terms of the withdrawal and COVID-19, the global pandemic.Mr. Maley, if I could start with you that would be wonderful.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesViolent crimePeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley: (1930)[English]Thank you very much.There has been a very significant escalation in violence against minorities in the period since the signing on the 29th of February 2020 of the bilateral agreement between the United States and the Taliban. That's not to suggest that there wasn't significant violence before that, indeed there was, but there's been an escalation. The reason I think is that the agreement between the U.S. and the Taliban provided for, as it were, a moratorium on Taliban attacks on the forces of the United States and its allies, but the effect in practice has been to channel attacks by the Taliban against targets within the Afghan community. It inadvertently incentivized those kinds of attacks. If the aim of enemies of the Afghan state is to put on display, symbolically, the incapacity of the state to provide protection to the general public and, in a sense, discharge a key state function, then killing minorities is a very effective way of sending the signal that the government is impotent because in this kind of situation, as Hobbes once said, the “Reputation of power is power”.The Americans with their agreement boosted the reputation of the Taliban and undermined the reputation of the Afghan government. Attacks on minorities since then have aggravated that particular problem. In a sense it's likely that in any situation of similar dimensions minorities will find themselves significantly under attack and for that reason I don't see any likelihood that we're going to witness a diminution of such attacks in the near future.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesViolent crimeHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1935)[English]Mr. Ajimal, would you perhaps like to jump in?WilliamMaleyJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeetS--AjimalInterventionMr. Jasjeet S. Ajimal: (1935)[English]To add to that, before the troops were leaving the Sikh and Hindu communities in Afghanistan had to pay a jeziah tax, a special tax to the Taliban, in order to survive. When ISIS came in different parts of Afghanistan, they had to pay ISIS. The tax is utilized by these terrorist organizations to not only persecute these minorities, but under their law determine a way to kill them, as in they will raise the tax to a point where these people cannot pay and then in their eyes it's okay to go and target these people for killing. It's also a way to fund their crime and continue to fund their terrorism. As the troops are departing the situation is going to escalate. These folks, just like the professor mentioned, will continue to get a larger amount of tax. They will continue to be persecuted not only for symbolic reasons that they're maintaining control but also to finance the terrorism.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesViolent crimeHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1935)[English]Thank you very much for that.What I'm also hearing from you, and that we've heard from all of the witnesses today, is that the urgency for Canada and other international bodies to act is very pressing because of course it is not a matter of if. It is a matter of when. At the point that we're right now, does Canada have a role to play in terms of the peace process, in terms of what's happening on the ground, in terms of protecting minorities in Afghanistan as part of that? We have heard that Canada needs to do more, particularly once COVID is done, in terms of bringing people to Canada and allowing people to settle in Canada and make their homes here. Do we have a role to play in Afghanistan during this peace process, and what is that role?Mr. Ajimal, maybe you would have something you could present on that?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesRefugeesJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeetS--AjimalInterventionMr. Jasjeet S. Ajimal: (1935)[English] Yes, I can absolutely respond.At this point in time, it's essential that these people flee. At this point in time, there is no viable solution in Afghanistan for these religious minorities. They continue to be persecuted. The government is unstable at the moment, and as the troops leave, the stability.... Although it may stabilize over time, any religious population or religious minorities residing in rural areas absolutely will be targeted immediately.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesRefugeesHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1935)[English]Thank you.Mr. Ibrahimi, do you want to add anything to that? I know that I'm running out of time.Jasjeet S.AjimalNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullahIbrahimiNiamatullah-IbrahimiInterventionDr. Niamatullah Ibrahimi: (1935)[English] I will be very quick. I hope the sound is working this time. I think Canada can do two things immediately. One is to support a UN-led commission of inquiry into the recent incidents of violence in Afghanistan. This is a move that is called for by the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission in an investigation into [Technical difficulty—Editor].AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1935)[English]I apologize. I have just been informed by the clerk that it's not possible. He can't speak. There's no interpretation.You have 10 seconds left, Heather. Do you want to just conclude?NiamatullahIbrahimiHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1935)[English]Yes. I'll cede my time.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1935)[English]Thank you very much, MP McPherson.Now we are moving to our second round of questions. This is going to be a five-minute round from members. Members, I also want to let you know that we're going to have a vote shortly. When the bells start, I'm looking for unanimous consent from everybody such that whoever is on that question will let that questioner finish up. Then we will have to conclude the session. Is that an okay from everybody? Okay. Thank you very much.For the second round, we have MP Zuberi for five minutes.HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaSameerZuberiPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54157SameerZuberiSameer-ZuberiPierrefonds—DollardLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZuberiSameer_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sameer Zuberi (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): (1940)[English]I would like to thank all of the witnesses for coming here and educating us. It's not that we were unaware of a lot of the concerns you're raising, but I think it's really bringing this into sharper focus for some of us.For me, at the beginning of COVID, I have friends in the World Sikh Organization who reached out to me to let me know about the urgency of the situation for Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan. I'm just letting you know that it's something that I personally and many of my colleagues are highly sensitive to.I would like to pick up on what Heather was asking about with respect to that. We do know that Afghanistan is not safe for minorities and that there are continuous bomb blasts and targeted attacks, although if there could be some exposé by those who have some solutions as to what we can do as a country to help bolster the position of minorities over there in Afghanistan and to do our part to try to protect minorities over there.... If there are any other suggestions, I would like to open up the floor, please, along those lines.Could we have Balpreet and Mr. Maley, please?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsHeritage sites and buildingsMinoritiesRefugeesSafetyPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleBalpreetSinghBalpreetSinghBalpreet-SinghInterventionMr. Balpreet Singh: (1940)[English]I will just say that there is really no trust left amongst the Sikh community in what the government can do. It's not that the government is necessarily targeting or wants to drive out these minorities. It's just that they're unable to provide protection. For example, in the individual suicide attack on the Kabul gurdwara in March, he was dressed in a security uniform, so when they posted more security officers to the gurdwara, the community was actually afraid. They've done token things like announcing that there will be a cultural day to celebrate the Afghan Hindu and Sikh contributions. That doesn't really mean anything. In terms of protections, the government is able to offer limited protection in Kabul and no protection in the other areas. On my own watch, we have seen the three communities—Kabul, Jalalabad and Ghazni—be reduced to just Jalalabad and Kabul. The entire population of Sikhs and Hindus in Ghazni has left. The options available to the community are to flee. The government isn't able to help.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesSafetySameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardSameerZuberiPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54157SameerZuberiSameer-ZuberiPierrefonds—DollardLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZuberiSameer_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sameer Zuberi: (1940)[English]Thank you, Balpreet.Mr. Maley.BalpreetSinghWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley: (1940)[English] Thank you.I think several things are important at this point. One is to recognize that there is not a working peace process in Afghanistan at the moment. Lots of people are going through the motions, but essentially the agreement that the Americans signed with the Taliban was an exit agreement for the United States, rather than a peace agreement for Afghanistan. Because the U.S., at that point, gave the Taliban everything that they really wanted, the Taliban have been engaged in strategic stalling since then, but that is no longer the main game. Really, a crisis management approach is a much better one for the Canadian government and like-minded governments to take, recognizing that two things are very important.One is to maintain support, not so much for any given government, but for a republican and pluralist system in Afghanistan, as opposed to the totalitarian order that the Taliban would like to impose. One way of doing that is to seek every diplomatic channel available to send a signal that those who attempt to impose a totalitarian order can expect to be marginalized and isolated internationally.The other is with respect to vulnerable individuals to recognize that, at a certain point, millions of refugees may be flowing out of Afghanistan despite all of the constraints on people's movement that COVID has imposed. The numbers could well overwhelm the capacity of governments, such as those in Iran and Turkey, to prevent onward movement towards Europe. There will be demands for a range of countries in the world to step up to provide resettlement for people who will really have no realistic option of going safely back to Afghanistan in the foreseeable future. Canada, which has a very long history of humanitarian contributions in this respect, I think has a role to play there too.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsForeign policyMinoritiesRefugeesSameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardSameerZuberiPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54157SameerZuberiSameer-ZuberiPierrefonds—DollardLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZuberiSameer_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sameer Zuberi: (1945)[English]Thank you.Mr. G. Singh—I'm sorry, I don't know your first name—please go ahead.WilliamMaleyGurvinderSinghGurvinderSinghGurvinder-SinghInterventionMr. Gurvinder Singh: (1945)[English]Our request is that perhaps a commission be instituted, especially for our heritage sites for how those can be preserved in conjunction and working in collaboration with the Afghan government. The United States would love to help and assist. That's something that really tugs at the hearts. We have historical shrines that are hundreds of years old where Guru Nanak Sahib Ji himself came and visited. Many Afghan families are not only interlinked there, but they're risking their lives because they refuse to leave them unguarded.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsHeritage sites and buildingsMinoritiesSameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardSameerZuberiPierrefonds—Dollard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/54157SameerZuberiSameer-ZuberiPierrefonds—DollardLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/ZuberiSameer_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Sameer Zuberi: (1945)[English]That you for underscoring the cultural importance of protection of cultural sites. Thank you, everybody.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsHeritage sites and buildingsMinoritiesGurvinderSinghPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1945)[English]Thank you, MP Zuberi.Now we're moving to MP Genuis for five minutes.SameerZuberiPierrefonds—DollardGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC): (1945)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.I want to thank the witnesses. As I was listening to the testimony at the beginning, I was thinking about the case of the MS St. Louis, which was a ship of Jewish Holocaust refugees who were turned away from Canada. In my time as a parliamentarian, we had an official apology delivered by the Prime Minister for Canada's lack of willingness to receive these fleeing refugees. At the same time, we've been talking about this issue of the need for a special program to help vulnerable Afghan minorities for the entirety of the time I've been a parliamentarian—since 2015. I think there is a significant frustration among many people, as we've heard tonight, about the lack of action.I gave my first member's statement in the House in December of 2015 on this very issue, calling for the creation of a special program under section 25 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. I think it's important to underscore that the letter Balpreet Singh mentioned that was signed by MPs in support of a special program under section 25 was also signed by our leader. Our immigration shadow minister Jasraj Singh Hallan has personally been involved in sponsoring an Afghan Sikh family and did so before being an elected official. It's been a long time, though. Although some families from India have been helped, as we've heard tonight, we know the mechanism—a special program under section 25 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act—would allow direct sponsorship from Afghanistan to Canada, yet it just hasn't happened. We continue to call for that to take place. It's so necessary. I don't know why it hasn't happened. I want to start with a question for Balpreet Singh. Could you clarify whether the government has given you an outright “no” to the possibility of a section 25 program or whether they simply haven't answered the question? Secondly, could you just speak to other precedents you're aware of where special programs under section 25 have been used successfully for other communities?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesRefugee sponsorshipPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleBalpreetSinghBalpreetSinghBalpreet-SinghInterventionMr. Balpreet Singh: (1945)[English] We've been making this call for many years now. After the March 2020 incident there was, of course, dialogue with CIC. The answer we got was that this isn't possible at this time. It wasn't a vehement “no”, but it was “no for now”. The problem here is that “no for now” puts these people at risk, and it's been so long. When I made this first presentation there were 2,006 left. After 2016, five years later, we have all these deaths. We have all this evacuation. They have no future in India. I've already talked about the fact that there is no legislative mechanism to settle them there. India is not a signatory to the Refugee Convention.This special program is a unique situation. It's a unique program that has been created for Syrian refugees. It's been created for, as I understand, Tibetan refugees who had gone to India and for Ismaili refugees.These are vulnerable individuals who are easily identified by their appearance. As I said, Daesh has already vowed to drive them out of Afghanistan or kill them, so—AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesRefugee sponsorshipGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanGarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89226GarnettGenuisGarnett-GenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GenuisGarnett_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Garnett Genuis: (1945)[English]Thank you for that very specific answer, mentioning other communities that have benefited from a special program. The Sikh and Hindi community in Afghanistan, as well as other minorities, should also benefit from it.I'm going to give the balance of my time to Ms. Sahota. AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesBalpreetSinghPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1950)[English]Just so you're aware, you have one minute.GarnettGenuisSherwood Park—Fort SaskatchewanJagSahotaCalgary Skyview//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105665JagSahotaJag-SahotaCalgary SkyviewConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SahotaJag_CPC.jpgInterventionMs. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC): (1950)[English]Thank you, Garnett. I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here.Balpreet, I'm going to build on what my colleague said. What can the government do right now to help Afghan Sikhs, to basically save their lives?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesRefugeesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleBalpreetSinghBalpreetSinghBalpreet-SinghInterventionMr. Balpreet Singh: (1950)[English]The process to create the special program, even if we aren't able to bring them immediately, is something we've been asking for, for a long time. The entire costs for the refugees who have settled here have been borne by the Sikh community. The sad thing is that, after six years, of the Helmand group we're talking about, less than half have arrived here. I appreciate the efforts of the government, and certainly the efforts of the Bhullar Foundation, but if these folks are going to be in India for the next I don't know how many years, they are going to continue to suffer, and those who are in Afghanistan will die. AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesRefugeesJagSahotaCalgary SkyviewPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1950)[English]Thank you, Mr. Singh.We are now moving to MP Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe for five minutes.BalpreetSinghAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1950)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.We have heard a lot about the government in Afghanistan and about the laws in Afghanistan, but we have not heard as much about the social situation in Afghanistan. I would be curious to hear what the witnesses have to say about it.Earlier, I asked you what the government could do, but I would also like to know about the social attitudes of the people in Afghanistan towards religions other than Islam. For me, that's important too.Are any of the witnesses ready to answer that question?Can you answer it, Mr. Maley?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsCivil societyMinoritiesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley: (1950)[English]Civil society in Afghanistan is a significant actor, but it is a very vulnerable actor as well. Something like three-quarters of the Afghan population is under the age of 30. These people have very often been influenced by forces of globalization that no previous generation had encountered. The positive sign is that one meets many people right across the board who don't carry the baggage of prejudices that some earlier generations carry with them. At the same time, there has been something of a disposition in recent months for people in western countries to say that because civil society is so vibrant in Afghanistan, this will provide a bulwark against the worst kind of policy setting that the Taliban might seek to implement if it were to return to power. I think this is a misconception that's actually shoved civil society activists right to the front line, where they are now being assassinated by the Taliban. Civil society, of course, was extremely vibrant in the Weimar Republic in the late 1920s and early 1930s, but a vibrant civil society is also vulnerable and subject to decapitation. In Afghanistan, for example, civil society thrives on the basis of social media, which provides connections between different people. It would be relatively easy for a repressively minded state to shut down communications of that sort. Civil society is, certainly, something to support in Afghanistan, but it is not a magic bullet that can be used to address the problems of repression that other kinds of groups are putting on the agenda at the moment. AfghanistanCivil and human rightsCivil societyMinoritiesAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1950)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Maley.I am wondering about another question. The conflicts and the armed struggles in Afghanistan have been going on for decades. We can mention the ones with the Soviets, of course, then with the Americans, the internal intertribal wars, and so on. What impacts have those conflicts had on religious minorities in Afghanistan? My question is for all the witnesses.Mr. Ajimal, do you want to start? Mr. Singh, do you want to follow on?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesWarWilliamMaleyJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeet S.AjimalJasjeetS--AjimalInterventionMr. Jasjeet S. Ajimal: (1950)[English] The consequences, when a military leader comes in as different governments change and as the Taliban or ISIS take a role, are that each and every one persecutes religious minorities first. It's a matter of control, just like the professor mentioned in his earlier statements. The religious minorities are controlled. If anyone tries to assist the religious minorities, they are then targeted themselves. Civil society has unfortunately been put in a position where they are not able to help any religious minorities, because they themselves will become a target. This isn't a matter of a new government coming in or a matter of a warlord being overthrown. This is a matter of each and every power broker who has come in continuing to persecute religious minorities.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesWarAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-Jean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/104786AlexisBrunelle-DuceppeAlexis-Brunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/Brunelle-DuceppeAlexis_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe: (1955)[Translation]Mr. Singh, you can add a quick comment.Afterwards, if we are lucky, maybe we can hear what Ms. Chiovenda has to say.Jasjeet S.AjimalGurvinderSinghGurvinderSinghGurvinder-SinghInterventionMr. Gurvinder Singh: (1955)[English]I can sum it up really quickly. The results of this internecine warfare and these different warlords coming to power have been a mass exodus for religious minorities and a genocide of the religious minorities. Those are the two results: mass exodus and mass killings.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesWarAlexisBrunelle-DuceppeLac-Saint-JeanPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1955)[English]Thank you, Mr. Singh. Thank you, Alexis.Now we're moving to MP McPherson for five minutes.GurvinderSinghHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1955)[English]Thank you.This is not new information, of course, that we're receiving, but I am just really struggling to understand, particularly when we hear that the Canadian government has been able to implement some of these immigration policies for other groups, why they are so reluctant to do so for Afghani minorities. It's deeply concerning and something that we need to continue to push them on. As the NDP member of this committee, I think this will probably be our last opportunity. I wondered whether or not it would make sense for us to just go through and have people. Is there anything that we have not covered in the meeting today that you would like to share with the committee, that you would like to make sure gets on record, or anything that we haven't asked you that you'd like to share with us? I'd be happy to open up the microphone for you to do that.Go ahead, Mr. Maley.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesSettlement of immigrantsPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleWilliamMaleyWilliamMaleyWilliam-MaleyInterventionDr. William Maley: (1955)[English] Thank you very much.I think one issue that needs to be kept in mind is that there is a risk of genocide in Afghanistan. This may seem to be a foreign proposition, but I think, unfortunately, that it's historically grounded. The substantial outflow of Hazaras from Afghanistan began in August 1998, following a massacre that took place in Mazar-e-Sharif, which the Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid in his Yale University Press book on the Taliban described as “genocidal in its ferocity”. If one looks at article II on the genocide convention, one can match that up with various practices that have surfaced recently in Afghanistan that suggest that genocidal intent is there on the part of at least some groups within the country.There has, of course, historically been a great deal of legitimate attention paid to the vulnerabilities of women in Afghanistan, because the Taliban are the world's least feminist movement, but the Taliban are not going to try to kill all of the women in Afghanistan. They are, however, capable of trying to kill all of the Sikhs, all the Hindus or all of the Hazaras. Given that's the case, I think the whole thrust of the genocide convention that Raphael Lemkin struggled so hard to have adopted is that one should not simply be waiting until it has happened. One needs to be alert to the real dangers of this materializing, and one needs to be poised to do something. That, I think, is probably the gravest danger that haunts the situation in Afghanistan.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (1955)[English] Thank you very much.I have a few more seconds. I will now hand it over to Ms. Bhullar.WilliamMaleyTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinderKaur-BhullarInterventionMs. Tarjinder Kaur Bhullar: (1955)[English]Thank you.It would be important for me to mention that we are actively working on a program that will settle the current population. It has been a long process, but it is also one that has to take into account that we are also dealing with a population that has arrived in India and the way they are deemed refugees or not. It's important for us to note that the partnership we are creating is a model that we will advocate for in terms of being used for other populations, as well as the continuous assistance of Afghan populations that still remain in Afghanistan or are within other displaced areas around the world.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsMinoritiesSettlement of immigrantsHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (2000)[English]Thank you, Ms. Bhullar.Finally, we'll go to Ms. Chiovenda.Tarjinder KaurBhullarMelissaKerr ChiovendaMelissaKerr ChiovendaMelissa-KerrChiovendaInterventionMs. Melissa Kerr Chiovenda: (2000)[English] I will build on Professor Maley's comments. It's key that we look at this as something that might be headed towards genocide.It's important when we look at some of the attacks that have happened, in particular the attack on the maternity hospital where labouring mothers and newborns were killed or the other attack on girls, that this was often interpreted as an attack on women, but I think symbolically this can be interpreted as an attack on future generations and on those people who are bringing future generations of Hazaras into the world.That symbolic aspect needs to be kept in mind when we're thinking about genocide and the attacks that are going on right now.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsFreedom of conscience and religionMinoritiesHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (2000)[English]Thank you very much.MelissaKerr ChiovendaPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2000)[English] I don't think the bells have gone yet, so we're now moving to the third round. We have MP Baker for five minutes or whatever times remains.HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaYvanBakerEtobicoke Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105121YvanBakerYvan-BakerEtobicoke CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BakerYvan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yvan Baker (Etobicoke Centre, Lib.): (2000)[English]Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.I thank all the witnesses for being here. I'm learning a tremendous amount from all of you and I wish I could ask questions to all of you.We heard some testimony—PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (2000)[English]On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, but I had my hand up asking to speak.YvanBakerEtobicoke CentrePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2000)[English]I apologize, Mr. Chiu.KennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastKennyChiuSteveston—Richmond East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89334KennyChiuKenny-ChiuSteveston—Richmond EastConservative CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/ChiuKenny_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Kenny Chiu: (2000)[English]That's okay. I'm sorry to interrupt our friend here.I wonder if we could provide four minutes per party. Four times four parties equals 16 minutes, and that should be more than enough. I hate to have to cut short the witnesses. They have been so genuine and willing to come to our meeting.I propose that, with unanimous consent, we extend the meeting by 16 minutes so that every party has four minutes.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2000)[English]It depends on how long the bells will go for. I don't know if they're going to walk it in or not, or how that will happen.KennyChiuSteveston—Richmond EastHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (2000)[English]I'm sorry to interrupt, but I believe it's a 15-minute bell.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvillePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2000)[English]Has it gone off yet?I'm looking around, but I don't know if we have unanimous consent. I don't know if we can do it either. The time just will not allow.HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaHeatherMcPhersonEdmonton Strathcona//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105689HeatherMcPhersonHeather-McPhersonEdmonton StrathconaNew Democratic Party CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McPhersonHeather_NDP.jpgInterventionMs. Heather McPherson: (2000)[English]The bells have not gone off yet, but they will likely go any minute now.PeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleManinderSidhuBrampton East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105045ManinderSidhuManinder-SidhuBrampton EastLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SidhuManinder_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Maninder Sidhu: (2000)[English]I would suggest that we continue until the bells go off.HeatherMcPhersonEdmonton StrathconaPeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2000)[English]MP Baker.ManinderSidhuBrampton EastYvanBakerEtobicoke Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105121YvanBakerYvan-BakerEtobicoke CentreLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BakerYvan_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yvan Baker: (2000)[English]Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.Again, I thank all the witnesses for being here. I'm learning a tremendous amount from all of you.We heard some testimony from one of my MP colleagues suggesting that Canada is not responding to the crisis facing Afghan Sikhs, or not doing so with urgency. My understanding is that this government has doubled the number of refugees from the previous government, and we've been a leader in refugee resettlement for the last three years. I know we've been working with the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation to resettle Afghan Sikh families.My question is to the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation.With respect to the statement that Canada is not responding to the crisis facing Afghan Sikhs, or not doing so with urgency, is this correct? How would you characterize Canada's response?AfghanistanCivil and human rightsImmigration policyMinoritiesRefugeesPeterFonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinder KaurBhullarTarjinderKaur-BhullarInterventionMs. Tarjinder Kaur Bhullar: (2000)[English] Thank you for the question.The Government of Canada, as I said in my opening remarks, is the most viable option for this population, so that is essentially the foundation through which we have continued to have conversations with the members of government, as well as government departments.I think it's important to remember—and I make no bones about it—that we need to get this work done. We have support from across the aisle and within the Liberal caucus. I have always said that this is not a partisan issue; this is a humanitarian issue. The responsibility lies with every single one of us.We have had success, and I want to continue to have success. We are in the process of settling the initial families who arrived in India from the province of Helmand, and we continue to say to the government, during our discussions, that we are creating a model that needs to apply to the families who have arrived since, who are part of the attacks that took place at the gurdwara. We also want to make sure that the lessons learned here are applied to humanitarian concerns regardless of where they occur across the world.The thing is that we have to be able to learn and then apply, and as some of the other witnesses mentioned, always focus on a proactive approach versus a reactive approach. In a situation like this, reactive is too late, and proactive is what we want to see. How can we assist these communities before the inevitable happens and we lose lives?I will say that we have had support from the government, and we continue to make sure that we press them on making this work a reality.AfghanistanCivil and human rightsImmigration policyMinoritiesRefugeesYvanBakerEtobicoke CentrePeterFonsecaMississauga East—Cooksville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71692PeterFonsecaPeter-FonsecaMississauga East—CooksvilleLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FonsecaPeter_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (2005)[English]Thank you.I'm going to apologize to everyone, to the witnesses. Of course the members know that the bells have started ringing, and we have a vote in the House.On behalf of the committee—all the members, all the staff, the interpreters, the clerk—we want to thank you for your testimony and for your answers to the many questions. We truly appreciate it.Thank you very much, everyone. That will conclude our meeting. We're adjourned. Tarjinder KaurBhullar//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.)): (1600)[English] I will call the meeting to order.Welcome to meeting number 58 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, April 27, 2021, the committee is meeting to study the Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to combat tax avoidance and evasion.Today's meeting is taking place in the hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25 of this year. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. I think we all know here that only the person speaking shows up when we're in session.With that, we are fortunate today to have here the Minister of National Revenue, the Honourable Diane Lebouthillier. She'll have a few opening remarks for about seven minutes, I gather.Thank you, Minister. Not all ministers give us their remarks the night before in both official languages. We appreciate that.With the minister is Ted Gallivan, assistant commissioner, compliance programs branch, who has been here many a time. We welcome him, as well.We will start with the minister—Tax avoidanceTax evasionPatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC): (1600)[English]I have a point of order. I'll be really quick, Mr. Chair.I agree with you. I do thank the minister for providing her remarks ahead of time. That was thoughtful of her to do so. I have read them. I'm sure everybody else has, as well. I wonder if we might dispense with having them read into the record and go straight to questions.Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]No, I don't believe so, Mr. Kelly. I find that the ministers do like to have an opportunity to make their statement. I think it's one of the reasons we don't get them if we take that opportunity away from them.On this one I'm going to allow the minister to make her statement and thank her for her courtesy. It gives us, as members, time to better prepare questions.Madam Minister.Tax avoidanceTax evasionPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue): (1605)[Translation]Thank you very much.Hello to all my colleagues.Mr. Chair, I would like to take this opportunity, before beginning my presentation, to wish you a happy birthday.Thank you for this invitation to provide details on the Canada Revenue Agency's strategies to combat tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance.Let me begin by saying that the Government of Canada and the CRA are firmly committed to combatting tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance on all fronts. And we are all committed to making things much more difficult for those who choose not to meet their tax obligations.In fact, since 2016, the Government of Canada has made investments that have helped provide the CRA with better data, better methodology and, ultimately, better results.In particular, these investments have enabled the agency to develop a strategy that promotes global data sharing. Let's face it, tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance are complex global problems.The CRA is working with international partners through various multilateral organizations, including the Organization for Economic Co‑operation and Development, or OECD, and its forum on tax administration, the FTA. I was pleased to see that Mr. Bob Hamilton, commissioner of the CRA, was appointed chair of the FTA in August 2020.As a result of its modern and collaborative strategy, Canada is member to 93 tax treaties and 24 international tax information exchange agreements. In fact, Canada is one of more than 70 countries that exchange information through the country‑by‑country reporting system.In addition, Canada participates in the electronic funds transfer reporting program, which is related to international electronic funds transfers over $10,000. And with the implementation of the common reporting standard in 2016, Canada, alongside nearly 100 other jurisdictions, benefits from financial institution data that identifies financial accounts held by non-resident clients for tax purposes.With these improved resources and tools, the CRA is now able to focus on large multinationals, high net worth networks, the underground economy, cryptocurrency and real estate transactions.The CRA is now seeing these signs of success because of the investments made by the Government of Canada.In recent years, the CRA has assessed the equivalent of more than $12 billion each year through audits, more than 60% of which were related to tax avoidance by large multinationals and aggressive tax planning by high net worth individuals.And I must note that these investments have generated approximately $5 billion in additional federal tax revenue, as of March 2021.Additionally, the CRA's criminal investigations program has enhanced its ability to investigate the most serious tax crimes. It is important to note that the agency investigates complex cases in collaboration with its partners in the Department of Finance and the Department of Justice to close what may be perceived as legal loopholes. And I must remind you that the CRA has shifted its focus to more hard-hitting investigations, which result in more jail time and higher fines.However, we must never forget that tax evasion often involves very complex domestic and international money transfer structures, which require the CRA to complete lengthy and time-consuming intelligence gathering processes.I also want to note that we are increasingly seeing high net worth taxpayers using the court system when they are audited in order to avoid providing documents and information to the agency. And I want to emphasize that the volume of complex litigation is up significantly from previous years, with approximately 3,000 active cases considered high level in complexity.(1610)As a result, first announced in the 2020 fall economic statement and confirmed in budget 2021, the Government of Canada has committed to invest $606 million over five years, beginning in 2021‑22, to continue this complex work.These investments will close the compliance gap for high net worth individuals, strengthen technical support for high-risk audits, improve the CRA's ability to identify tax evasion involving trusts, improve the CRA's ability to stop fraudulent or unjustified GST/HST refunds, and, finally, improve the criminal investigations program.In addition to the financial investments from budget 2021 legislative changes will also be put in place to strengthen the rules on transfer pricing, oral testimony, base erosion and profit shifting, and mandatory disclosure rules.Before I conclude, I would like to wish the chair of this committee, Mr. Wayne Easter, a very happy retirement.I want to thank you personally for your outstanding work on behalf of Canadians. We will miss you.Mr. Chair, I am proud to say that the Government of Canada and the CRA have shown determination and innovation in creating effective and proactive approaches to identifying those who avoid paying their fair share of taxes or who are taking steps to do so.Thank you.Canada Revenue AgencyCriminal investigations and hearingsData sharingTax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English] Thank you very much, Madam Minister. Thank you for the comments. It sometimes makes me wonder, with the comments I've gotten lately, that maybe a person should retire more often.The lineup for the first round of questions is Mr. Kelly and Mr. Lawrence. They'll split the first six minutes, followed by Ms. Dzerowicz, Mr. Ste-Marie and Mr. Julian.Mr. Kelly, I believe you're up first or it might be Mr. Lawrence. Go ahead.DianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleinePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1610)[English]It's Mr. Lawrence.WayneEasterHon.MalpequePhilipLawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105291PhilipLawrencePhilip-LawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LawrencePhilip_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Philip Lawrence (Northumberland—Peterborough South, CPC): (1610)[English]I can agree with the chair. I would certainly like to see more Liberals retire.Thanks very much.My question, obviously, is for the minister.The inability to collect revenue from tax evaders—which is somewhere in the neighbourhood of $10 billion to $25 billion a year—has real consequences. Our debt now, Minister, is over a trillion dollars, the government's debt-to-GDP ratio will exceed 50% and the government has shown little, if any, ability to control spending. Despite raising taxes on many hard-working Canadians and business owners, it has shown also a very poor record of increasing revenue. In fact, it has zero record of it. No doubt that's partially due, as I mentioned, to billionaire evaders and Liberal friends avoiding taxes.Will the minister finally come clean today and announce when the Liberals will be putting a tax on one of the few tax shelters left to middle-class Canadians—that being their homes? Otherwise, why would they be tracking the sale of principal residency, if not to eventually tax it?Property taxTax avoidanceTax evasionPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1610)[Translation]Mr. Chair, as I said, combatting tax fraud in Canada and abroad is a priority for our government. In fact, we see that budget 2021 includes numerous investments and also policy proposals that have been very well received and are based on the hard work done by CRA in this matter.I do hope, Mr. Chair, that my colleague will vote in favour of our budget so we are able to move forward and serve Canadians well.Property taxTax avoidanceTax evasionPhilipLawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthPhilipLawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105291PhilipLawrencePhilip-LawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LawrencePhilip_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Philip Lawrence: (1610)[English]Thank you, Minister.I just want to ask some questions. As I said, not getting income from tax evaders has consequences. I have a couple of questions that I would just like numerical responses to.How many CERB recipients have you identified as ineligible? How many millions of dollars have you collected from fraudulent CERB benefits?Canada Emergency Response BenefitTax avoidanceTax evasionDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1615)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I want to tell my colleague that before we can add up the amounts that were allocated to the Canada emergency response benefit, we have to wait for tax season to be over. We will then be able to collect the information.However, I have to tell you that our government was very proud to be able to help Canadians at the beginning of the pandemic. I want to tell my colleague that it would have cost Canadians a lot more if our government had not stepped in.Canada Emergency Response BenefitTax avoidanceTax evasionPhilipLawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English] I have to go back to Mr. Lawrence.DianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleinePhilipLawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/105291PhilipLawrencePhilip-LawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthConservative CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LawrencePhilip_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Philip Lawrence: (1615)[English]I will hand it over to Mr. Kelly.WayneEasterHon.MalpequePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1615)[English]Thank you for being here, Minister. It's nice to see you again.In 2018, the Auditor General reported that the manner in which your agency treated tax filers with offshore accounts was different from its treatment of Canadians without offshore accounts.Is that still the case at your agency?Tax avoidanceTax evasionPhilipLawrenceNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1615)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank my colleague for his question.In 2013‑2014, the CRA did 43 audits relating to tax evasion. In 2019‑2020, 1,100 audits were done. We can clearly see that all the work we have done is bearing fruit.Tax avoidanceTax evasionPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1615)[English]I'm sorry, Madam Minister. That wasn't my question.Minister, I asked you whether your agency still treats Canadians with offshore accounts differently from tax filers without offshore accounts?Tax avoidanceTax evasionDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1615)[Translation]Mr. Chair, the Canada Revenue Agency treats all Canadians equitably. That is one of the CRA's principles. The clients are truly central to our concerns and we try to offer them the best service possible, that is, fair service. We make sure that everyone pays their fair share.Tax avoidanceTax evasionPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]I'll let it go back to Mr. Kelly.DianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleinePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1615)[English]Do you think it's fair for a Canadian without an offshore tax avoidance plan or offshore accounts to automatically lose a deduction if they can't produce documents within 90 days, whereas a Canadian with an offshore account is given months or years to comply with a request for information?This is right from the Auditor General. I'm not making this up. It was three years ago that this report came out. I want to know if that's still the practice. Based on your last answer, I would really like you to comment and tell us whether you think that's fair.Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1615)[Translation]Mr. Chair, our government respects the independence of the CRA. My role is not to order the CRA to undertake audits and I do not intervene in those audits.That is really part of the CRA's process, unlike the Conservatives' approach. If my colleague wants more information about administrative matters, I can ask Mr. Gallivan, the assistant commissioner, to answer him.Tax avoidanceTax evasionPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeTedGallivanTedGallivanTed-GallivanInterventionMr. Ted Gallivan (Assistant Commissioner, Compliance Programs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency): (1615)[English] Thank you.Factually, a more complex audit will take more time, and factually, when the CRA has the onus of proof, it needs to gather evidence that will withstand a challenge in court. It does take more time because we think it's in the Crown's best interest.That's what the OAG observed. They observed, in the more complex cases, that we did allow more time to get the information, because we needed that information to collect the taxes owed.Canada Revenue AgencyTax avoidanceTax evasionDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleinePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1615)[English]The Auditor General observed—TedGallivanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]This is the last question, Pat. We're a little over, but that's okay.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1615)[English]The Auditor General observed that this was actually unfair, that Canadians who didn't have offshore accounts were automatically denied a claim or deduction if they couldn't produce documents in 90 days.What I would like to know is whether there has been any progress on providing more fairness to Canadian taxpayers who will automatically lose their deduction in 90 days, compared with offshore filers who can defy with impunity a request for documents from the CRA.Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Do you want to take that one, Mr. Gallivan?PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1620)[English]I would like the minister to answer that.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Okay.PatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89130PatKellyPat-KellyCalgary Rocky RidgeConservative CaucusAlberta//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/KellyPat_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pat Kelly: (1620)[English]Mr. Gallivan has been here before. We haven't had the minister here in a while. The minister can answer the question, please.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1620)[Translation]Mr. Chair, Mr. Kelly is asking questions about administrative matters. My role, as Minister of National Revenue, is not administrative, unlike the Conservatives when they were in power and did not hesitate to try to intervene in the integrity of the tax system. If Mr. Kelly wants to obtain accurate information in answer to his questions, Mr. Gallivan will provide him with it.Tax avoidanceTax evasionPatKellyCalgary Rocky RidgeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Okay.If you have a very quick comment, Mr. Gallivan, I will give it to you, but be very quick.DianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineTedGallivanTedGallivanTed-GallivanInterventionMr. Ted Gallivan: (1620)[English] Again, I would say the discrepancy in time allowed is driven by the complexity of the case and the burden of proof, as opposed to any type of preference or softness on the part of CRA.Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Okay. We'll move on to Ms. Dzerowicz, followed by Mr. Ste-Marie.Julie.TedGallivanJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz (Davenport, Lib.): (1620)[English]Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. I offer a warm welcome to the minister for being here today.Mr. Gallivan, welcome to you in returning to our committee.There's a false narrative put forward by the opposition that our federal Liberal government has done nothing to tackle evasion and tax avoidance. We heard from Mr. Gallivan that we've actually made a significant investment since 2015 in terms of tackling tax avoidance and tax evasion. There has been $444 million invested in 2016, $523 million in 2017, $90.6 million in 2018, $150.8 million in 2019, and an additional $304 million in this year's budget. Minister, we also heard, as you mentioned, that this significant investment of over $1 billion has resulted in over $5 billion of identified additional tax avoidance coming into our coffers. We've also heard that there's the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, who do a bit of a ranking. They're the ones who broke the Panama papers and they've ranked Canada nine out of 80 in the world. We're among the top in terms of actually being able to tackle these issues on a global scale. Therefore, I want to give a huge thanks to you for your leadership, and a huge thanks for the leadership at the CRA, for the extraordinary efforts and work that they have done. Thank you for that.To truly appreciate our efforts and how far we've actually come, can you take a few moments to add a little context to our government's efforts to fund the fight against tax evasion, by describing the situation at the Canada Revenue Agency when you took over as minister in 2015, after nearly a decade of Conservative cuts?Canada Revenue AgencyTax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1620)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for her question.I agree that combatting tax evasion is a difficult task for the government, a serious and complex one that takes time. We are tackling these very profound problems and very wealthy people who have the resources to hire the best lawyers and the best teams.On the question of the Panama Papers, the government has invested over a billion dollars and has identified 900 Canadians. More than 200 audits have been completed and 160 audits are underway.We have given the CRA the tools and resources to fight tax evasion. That fight was not a priority for the Conservative government, as was even confirmed publicly by one of their former ministers of national revenue, Jean-Pierre Blackburn.Canada Revenue AgencyTax avoidanceTax evasionJulieDzerowiczDavenportJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1620)[English]Thank you so much, Minister. My next question is the following. As we speak here today, the Conservative Party is filibustering budget 2021. They're not only putting the continuation of COVID emergency support programs in danger, but they're also putting in danger a lot of the additional dollars. I mentioned the $304.2 million allocated in budget 2021. They're putting all of that at risk in our fight to continue to tackle tax evasion and tax avoidance. Can you go into detail about why passing budget 2021 is critical and how the fight against tax evasion would be harmed if the Conservatives continue to hold it up?Tax avoidanceTax evasionDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1625)[Translation]Mr. Chair, my colleague is asking me an important question.In fact, all the work that has been started by the Canada Revenue Agency has to continue. In budget 2021, we propose to eliminate the loopholes that allow people to avoid paying taxes in Canada. We are providing an additional $304 million to modernize and improve the CRA's capacity to fight tax evasion. For the next steps, we want to modernize and improve Canada's general anti-avoidance rules.I often hear the Conservatives talk about “the Liberals' pals” and it makes my hair stand on end. Because I have been at the Canada Revenue Agency since 2016, I have been able to see that it is the Conservatives who protect their pals. The Conservatives are the ones who don't want the wealthiest people, the ones with the means to pay lawyers and delay the processes, to pay their fair share. They are the ones who protect their pals, Mr. Chair, not the Liberals, who want everyone to pay their fair share.Tax avoidanceTax evasionJulieDzerowiczDavenportPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian (New Westminster—Burnaby, NDP): (1625)[Translation]Point of order, Mr. Chair.DianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English] There is a point of order. Who is it from?PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1625)[Translation]I raised a point of order, Mr. Chair. The Conservatives have not been in power for six years. We would like the minister to answer our questions rather than making partisan speeches.Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Mr. Julian, that's not a point of order. That's debate.You have about 50 seconds left between the two of you. Ms. Dzerowicz.Tax avoidanceTax evasionPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyJulieDzerowiczDavenport//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88721JulieDzerowiczJulie-DzerowiczDavenportLiberal CaucusOntario//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DzerowiczJulie_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Julie Dzerowicz: (1625)[English]Maybe based on that question, as was already mentioned, over $1 billion has been invested into taxing tax avoidance and tax evasion, and that is recent. I would give an opportunity in the remaining seconds to ask the minister to describe the impact of our government's investments in the fight against tax evasion.Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Minister, you have 30 seconds or less.JulieDzerowiczDavenportDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1625)[Translation]Mr. Chair, in 2019‑2020, more than 1,100 audits were done, unlike what was done in the past. For example, in 2013‑2014, 43 audits were done. So we see that the work is bearing fruit.Thank you.Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]We'll go on to Mr. Ste-Marie, followed by Mr. Julian. Mr. Ste-Marie, I believe you're in the room. Go ahead. The floor is yours for six minutes. DianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): (1625)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Like the minister, I too want to wish you a happy birthday, Mr. Chair. I am going to start with a statement. Then I will ask my questions.Hello, Minister. Thank you very much for being here this afternoon.The committee has already been working on the problems of tax evasion and tax avoidance for some time, in particular on the tax schemes put in place by KPMG, providing a financial vehicle to enable certain of its clients to reduce their tax payable. In light of the internal documents relating to this plan provided to the committee by KPMG on May 17, 2016, this could be a form of tax evasion, so of something illegal.All these problems are extremely complex, as you acknowledged and pointed out in your speech. Today, for example, we can read in La Presse that data from the Canada Revenue Agency show that its recent efforts to combat tax evasion by the richest Canadians have not led to any charges or convictions. The same kind of article can be read on CTV. Experts have appeared here to tell us that there is a feeling of impunity toward the government and the CRA, among the users of the tax havens and the tax law experts who create their schemes. We have been told that to put an end to this kind of behaviour, the United States brought out the heavy artillery to deal with KPMG: investigations by the Internal Revenue Service, threats of searches and of charges of obstructing justice, penalties, criminal charges of fraud and conspiracy against the firm and its officers, and threats to charge the firm with being a criminal organization. Here, there has been none of that. Instead, the CRA has proposed voluntary disclosures and still nothing has been resolved with the clients who did not agree.The experts reminded us that it is not possible to control what we can't see. Unfortunately, as you said in your testimony, the Canada Revenue Agency does not have access to all the information for doing these audits. For example, KPMG keeps going to court so it doesn't have to share its information with the CRA. The experts denounce the appearance of impunity and unfairness for the rich clients and the companies that create these schemes. They conceal their information from the CRA and contest the requests in court. At the committee, it is extremely difficult to get answers to our questions, to shed light on this entire matter. There are even witnesses who refuse to appear, in spite of the summons issued by the committee. These are no jokes!I repeat: it is important to shed light on this entire matter and get to the bottom of things. We have to be able to put in place laws, regulations, processes and guidelines to prevent any form of tax evasion. That is why I am asking you, as Minister of National Revenue, to initiate a public inquiry into the matter of the schemes created by KPMG that enabled Canadian taxpayers to collect money in the form of gifts or otherwise, money that was not included in the tax returns of the recipients, from companies in the Isle of Man or any other country, as section 231.4 of the Income Tax Act empowers you to do. I believe the committee could also adopt a motion to that effect a little later.Do you want to initiate a public inquiry, Minister, please?Thank you.Accounting and accountantsInquiries and public inquiriesKPMGTax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1630)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank my colleague for all of his preamble and his long question. I have sincere sympathy for the victims of fraud and I understand how much it can affect their lives. However, I can say that under the provisions of the Income Tax Act, I can't comment on any specific case. As my colleague knows very well, I cannot give and I will never give the CRA any instructions concerning criminal investigations.As is the role of our government, my role is to provide tools and resources so that the CRA, which is autonomous, can do its own work. Out of respect for the obvious principles of judicial independence, politicians must not ever interfere in investigations. That would be really very inappropriate.Accounting and accountantsInquiries and public inquiriesKPMGTax avoidanceTax evasionGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1630)[Translation] If I may, that is not at all what I asked. The committee's limitations are clear, and the only solution, the only tool, for shedding light on the entirety of KPMG's offshore activities is the public inquiry.We are not talking about an investigation before the courts. You, as the Minister of National Revenue, are the only one who has this power under the Income Tax Act; you can ask for a public inquiry to be held to get to the bottom of things and shed light on the situation. In my opinion, that is what should be done.I will ask you again. Please, can you ask for a public inquiry to be held into this entire matter so we can get to the bottom of things?Thank you.Accounting and accountantsInquiries and public inquiriesKPMGTax avoidanceTax evasionDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1630)[Translation]Mr. Chair, as you all know, committees are independent. You manage your own business.What I am seeing at present is that my colleague wants to play police officer. I invite him to give up his seat as a member and apply for a position as an investigator with the RCMP, where there are vacant positions. He would probably be happier there than in his present position.Accounting and accountantsInquiries and public inquiriesKPMGTax avoidanceTax evasionGabrielSte-MarieJolietteGabrielSte-MarieJoliette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88485GabrielSte-MarieGabriel-Ste-MarieJolietteBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/SteMarieGabriel_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: (1630)[Translation]I am extremely disappointed to hear such nonsense being given as an answer.In the United States, a senate committee held an inquiry that has changed things. It is our role to do that here. My role as an elected representative, and our role as a committee, is to ask the minister to initiate a public inquiry to get to the bottom of things. There are enough points to be raised to ask for that.We are not getting any answers, other than being told to change jobs. What a load of nonsense. She is the one who has the power.Is she going to do it, yes or no?Accounting and accountantsInquiries and public inquiriesKPMGTax avoidanceTax evasionDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1630)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I am going to ask my colleague to vote on budget 2021, which sets out proposals that really are even more useful for eliminating the loopholes used to avoid paying taxes in Canada, and that allocate additional money to the CRA so that it can modernize and improve its capacities.In addition to all the work done and the agreements signed by the countries, I am also very happy to see that the United States has embarked on the same path. We are therefore going to work in collaboration with our partners. As I said at the outset, this is a long and complex issue, and I understand very well that the public are offended. We are continuing our work and we truly want to combat tax evasion. This is a priority for our government.Accounting and accountantsInquiries and public inquiriesKPMGTax avoidanceTax evasionGabrielSte-MarieJolietteWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English] Thank you, both.Mr. Julian will be next, and then we have a split between Mr. Falk and Mrs. Jansen, followed by....Mr. Sorbara, if you're replacing Mr. Fraser, you're in the next round after Mrs. Jansen.DianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineTedFalkProvencher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/84672TedFalkTed-FalkProvencherConservative CaucusManitoba//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FalkTed_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Ted Falk (Provencher, CPC): (1635)[English]Mr. Chair, Mrs. Jansen will be going first.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Okay.Mr. Julian, you have six minutes.TedFalkProvencherPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1635)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I also want to wish you a happy birthday. Someday we will celebrate together, I'm sure.I would like to welcome the minister and Mr. Gallivan.I'm going to continue in the same vein as Mr. Ste‑Marie.We are talking about thousands of Canadians, victims who have lost all their life savings. We know very well that in the frauds committed by Norshield and Mount Real, there are thousands of Canadians who lost everything. The system has never got justice for them.Minister, you have been the minister for six years. What do you say to the victims, like Janet Watson who appeared before the committee, who say that the government has done absolutely nothing to protect them or to bring the guilty parties to justice?Accounting and accountantsInquiries and public inquiriesKPMGTax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1635)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for his question. We know that I have very sincere sympathy for the people who have been victims of fraud, just as he does. I truly understand how much this can affect their lives.However, as I said, and it doesn't bother me to repeat it, our government respects the CRA's status. I can't instruct the CRA to initiate audits and I do not intervene in audits. This is what protects the integrity of the tax system. We are going to continue doing the work we do, and because we want to keep moving forward, I invite my colleague to vote for the budget that has been introduced. It contains even greater resources to tighten the net and make sure that people pay their fair share.If my colleague wishes to get any more technical and administrative information, Mr. Gallivan can answer him.Accounting and accountantsInquiries and public inquiriesKPMGTax avoidanceTax evasionPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1635)[Translation]I would like to get back to the question of the Panama Papers, the Bahama Leaks and the Paradise Papers.All those papers, which are publicly available, contain almost 6,000 numbers of Canadian companies and names of Canadian individuals who benefited from a whole range of tax loopholes outside Canada.It's a simple question: how many of those companies and those individuals, who have been named for six years now, have been charged? How many of them have been convicted?Criminal chargesTax avoidanceTax evasionDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1635)[Translation]Mr. Chair, we are taking on very wealthy people. These people have the resources to pay the best lawyers, the best tax law experts, and the best teams to defend them.Canada adheres to the rule of law, and these people use all legal means available to them to ensure that they do not pay their fair share.I invite my colleague to support the budget so we can provide the resources to do even more to deal with those who commit fraud.Criminal chargesTax avoidanceTax evasionPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1635)[Translation]You have not answered my question.Mr. Gallivan, how many charges have been laid? How many convictions have there been?Criminal chargesTax avoidanceTax evasionDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineTedGallivanTedGallivanTed-GallivanInterventionMr. Ted Gallivan: (1635)[Translation]As was said earlier, the investigations have not resulted in convictions at this point.Criminal chargesTax avoidanceTax evasionPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1635)[Translation]That means that there have been no charges or convictions concerning the Isle of Man; no convictions relating to the Panama Papers; none in connection with the Bahama Leaks; and none concerning the Paradise Papers.There have therefore been no convictions in six years.(1640)[English] You said in this committee in 2016 that we were talking about measures taken to get information about electronic funds transfers. Regarding the CRA's audits of electronic funds transfers in excess of $10,000, how many files are now subject to criminal prosecution? How many convictions are there? We see Cinar, and we see the lack of action with the Isle of Man scam. We see that there have been absolutely no charges ever levied in all of these very clear violations of our tax code. I remind the minister, of course, of the comments made by Brigitte Unger, professor of economics, who said that this is effectively stealing money from public coffers, yet we see no action at all. When it comes to electronic funds transfers, how many files are now subject to criminal prosecution?Criminal chargesCriminal prosecutionsTax avoidanceTax evasionTedGallivanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/43WayneEasterHon.Wayne-EasterMalpequeLiberal CaucusPrince Edward Island//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/EasterWayne_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Is this going to the minister or Mr. Gallivan?PeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—Burnaby//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/16399PeterJulianPeter-JulianNew Westminster—BurnabyNew Democratic Party CaucusBritish Columbia//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/JulianPeter_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Peter Julian: (1640)[English]It's to the minister.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeDianeLebouthillierHon.Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88460DianeLebouthillierHon.Diane-LebouthillierGaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-MadeleineLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LebouthillierDiane_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Diane Lebouthillier: (1640)[Translation]As I have said multiple times since the meeting began, these are very complex cases.I would ask my colleague not to act as if he doesn't understand simple things. If I were to interfere in criminal investigations, I would be before the committee being accused of exactly the opposite. Criminal prosecutionsTax avoidanceTax evasionPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyPeterJulianNew Westminster—BurnabyINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE