//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lévis—Lotbinière, CPC): (1335)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I, too, would like to talk about the report, and I will keep it short. The title of the report alone gives me the chills: the “Trudeau II Report”. The number II means it’s the second report in the same session about the fact that the Prime Minister broke the law. In the case at hand, he violated section 9 of the Conflict of Interest Act. Here is what that section stipulates:No public office holder shall use his or her position as a public office holder to seek to influence a decision of another person so as to further the public office holder’s private interests or those of the public office holder’s relatives or friends or to improperly [I repeat, improperly] further another person’s private interests.In paragraph 282 of this very detailed report, Commissioner Mario Dion specifies that “the authority of the Prime Minister and his office was used to circumvent, undermine and ultimately attempt to discredit the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions as well as the authority of Ms. Wilson-Raybould as the Crown’s chief law officer.”That is a scandal in itself. One has to wonder, with an election around the corner, whether Canadians deserve a prime minister who breaks the laws of his own country. This is scathing.I hope that in the next few minutes, my colleagues across the way will have the moral conscience to permit us to invite the commissioner to come testify. He’s willing to do it. We have other questions to ask, and there is more to come on this story. We’d like to shed some light on that and learn the whole truth. Canadians deserve to know the truth before the election on October 21.In the democracy in which we live, it’s very troubling for all Canadians to see that an individual in a high-level position like the Prime Minister’s doesn’t seem to understand the separation of executive, legislative and judiciary powers.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.): (1350)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.We all appreciate the efforts of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner and his office, as well as their support to members and Parliament. As far as this report is concerned, the Prime Minister has thanked the commissioner and accepted his report. This matter has been thoroughly studied. As we all heard, the justice committee heard from 10 witnesses for a total of 13 hours of testimony over five weeks. In addition, we now have this detailed report from the commissioner. It represents months of work for him, and it’s 63 pages long. The Prime Minister has stated unequivocally that he was only trying to protect the jobs of thousands of Canadian workers the whole time. I would think all workers and all Canadians would expect that if their jobs were in jeopardy.We also have a guide by the Honourable Anne McLellan. She spoke with all the former attorneys general. Her guide helps clarify the relationships between—Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1355)[Translation] I will start over. We also have a guide by the Honourable Anne McLellan. She spoke with all the former attorneys general. Her guide helps clarify the relationships between attorneys general and their colleagues in cabinet. The Prime Minister has already pledged to all Canadians that he will act on Ms. McLellan’s recommendations.The combined processes of the justice committee and the commissioner, which took many hours, months and pages to complete, were detailed and thorough. It’s obvious to me, after hearing my honourable colleagues speak, that the opposition’s real objective is simply to play politics.[English]We're all thankful for the work of the commissioner's office in support of all members of the House at all times. The commissioner's report is quite detailed and Canadians have had a good opportunity to familiarize themselves with the content. The Prime Minister has thanked the commissioner and accepted the report.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Steve MacKinnon: Though he disagrees with the conclusions, especially when so many jobs were at stake—which is no laughing matter—he has already announced that steps will be taken to ensure that no government goes through a similar situation in the future. This government, as any government, should take seriously the responsibility of standing up for jobs and growing the economy. It's the responsibility of any Prime Minister to stand up for people's jobs. In fact, it's the responsibility of all members of Parliament. People whose jobs are on the line should expect no less of their elected representatives. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesPierrePoilievreHon.Carleton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1355)[English]No. Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Steven MacKinnon: Nor is that a point of order, Mr. Chair.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1355)[English]That member, with his rich experience in Canada's private sector, we'll have to look at his views with some skepticism too.It's the responsibility of any Prime Minister to stand up for people's jobs and livelihoods across the country, and that should also be the job of all members of Parliament while upholding, of course, at all times, the rule of law.Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesCharlieAngusTimmins—James Bay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1400)[English]Mr. Chairman, where I come from, we listen to folks and then get to speak and have a healthy exchange.I've now been interrupted three times by things that were not points of order. I hope the committee will indulge in hearing the rest of our statement. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1400)[English]Of course he does.BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1400)[English]I'm just expressing it through you, Mr. Chair—BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1400)[English] Thank you. I appreciate your chairmanship today, Mr. Chair.The Prime Minister's objective throughout, as he stated, was to protect thousands of jobs in Canada, all the while ensuring the integrity and independence of the justice system. As has been confirmed on multiple occasions, no direction was ever given to the former attorney general. Also, former attorney general Anne McLellan has authored a report after speaking with all former attorneys general, as well as constitutional scholars, and has offered recommendations, including a process and a set of principles to guide the relationship between the Attorney General and the government. Both the Prime Minister and the Attorney General have already stated that they will be looking at how to best implement those recommendations, such as the protocol on interactions with the Attorney General and better education for all parliamentarians on defining the role. The matter before us today has been studied quite extensively. The justice committee heard over 13 hours of comprehensive testimony from 10 different witnesses over a five-week span, and we now have a very thorough 63-page report by the commissioner. The opposition's claim to simply want the facts is contradicted by the fact that what they seek is found in the commissioner's report. It is already public, on top of the 13 hours of testimony that I just referenced, so the only conclusion that I and members of this committee can come to is that the opposition seeks to prolong this process for political reasons and partisan games. It is for that reason, Mr. Chair, that we will be opposing this motion. Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[English]Point of order.LisaRaittHon.MiltonBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[English]Do we have notice of this motion?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[Translation]Is it in French too?Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[Translation]No, they—Committee businessEthics and ethical issuesPolitical influenceReferences to membersTrudeau, JustinLisaRaittHon.MiltonPeterKentHon.Thornhill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88468StevenMacKinnonSteven-MacKinnonGatineauLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MacKinnonSteven_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Steven MacKinnon: (1515)[English]A recorded vote.BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/23915GuyCaronGuy-CaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaronGuy_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Guy Caron (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, NDP): (1315)[Translation]Thank you.All this is necessary because David Mulroney, the former Canadian ambassador to China, received a call, not from a regular employee of Global Affairs Canada, but from the assistant deputy minister for Asia-Pacific at the department. The assistant deputy minister asked him the following:[English] “In this time of high tension and in an election environment, we all need to be very, very careful.”[Translation]He said that he made the call at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office. At this time, the PMO and the Prime Minister deny making the request. Someone is lying in this case, and the consequences are quite serious for our parliamentary system.Is Mr. Mulroney lying? I don't think so.Did Mr. Thoppil lie when he said that the Prime Minister's Office asked him to contact Mr. Mulroney? In addition, someone else in the Prime Minister's Office reportedly contacted Guy Saint-Jacques, another former Canadian ambassador to China. I don't think that Mr. Thoppil lied. He had no reason to do so.As assistant deputy minister, he is experienced enough to distinguish between partisan meddling and a request from the Prime Minister's Office. At this point, I believe that, to get to the bottom of the matter and find out the truth, we must hear from the witnesses named in the motion. Ms. Alleslev provided the rationale for our request. However, I believe that we must determine to what extent, in terms of public comments, the Prime Minister's Office can ask its public service to work with private citizens who have expertise in the matter.These people have the right to make public comments, and they do so by drawing on their expertise. Asking them to speak carefully and to understand that they and Canada are acting in the best interests of the country by speaking with one voice constitutes an excessive and deliberate violation. If the Prime Minister's Office did indeed contact these former ambassadors, I think that this raises serious issues in terms of how we deal with the relationship between the Prime Minister's Office and the public service and how the Prime Minister's Office deals with private citizens.To this end, I urge my Liberal colleagues on the committee to call this meeting and the aforementioned witnesses so that we can understand the entire situation and find out who is and who isn't telling the truth in this case. Based on the current information, if I consider the simplest explanation, I'd say that Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Saint-Jacques felt pressured to align their views with the government's perspective.When he reported that he made the phone call at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office, the assistant deputy minister in question had no reason to lie. If the request did indeed come from the Prime Minister's Office, we must know who made the request and why, and we must ensure that this type of action won't be taken again. Only transparency and a public review by the committee will make this possible.I urge the Liberal members of the committee to accept and adopt this motion. We want to get to the bottom of the matter, not only for the sake of democracy and freedom of expression, but also to know the full story.Thank you.ChinaInternational relationsOffice of the Prime MinisterPolitical influencePublic Service and public servantsMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC): (1330)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The statement by Mr. Oliphant and Mr. Wrzesnewskyj shows us that our Liberal colleagues are living in denial and that the Prime Minister is also living in denial. We're in a very bad old film that's starting to get worn out. Let's recall the beginning of the SNC-Lavalin case, when we talked about political involvement in the justice system. From the start, the Prime Minister said that his cabinet had never had any influence. After holding many meetings, the justice and human rights committee uncovered a great deal of information. Today, we're faced with a new situation. We can all agree that this is a totally different type of situation. However, the situation is cause for concern. As in the other case, the Prime Minister said yesterday that his office had never issued the order, and so on. He's using the exact same words. The situation is different, but the principle and the approach are the same. Denial is the way to go. With the SNC-Lavalin and Jody Wilson-Raybould case, we could see what was happening. Another situation arose where the Prime Minister, who loves to blame others, found a scapegoat in Vice-Admiral Norman. During the first cabinet discussions, after the 2015 election, the decision was made to cancel the contract for the Asterix ship. However, when the information became available, instead of taking responsibility for his intention to cancel the contract, which would harm the Davie shipyard, the Prime Minister found a scapegoat in Vice-Admiral Norman. The vice-admiral paid the price for the whole situation.Today, the issue involves former ambassadors, career diplomats, professionals who are well aware of the need to be careful. These people know very well that the lives of the two Canadian hostages held in China are at stake. The Prime Minister's Office is telling former ambassadors and career diplomats what to do, while Mr. McCallum has made one mistake after another as ambassador and has caused many issues. He even spoke recently, in an interview with a Chinese media outlet, of the need to be careful because the situation could affect the Liberals' re-election in Canada. On that note, I want to remind you that we sent a letter to the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service requesting an audit on this matter.We're talking about a range of situations involving the Prime Minister and, once again, the committee members who refuse to get to the bottom of the matter. Put yourself in the shoes of the Canadian diplomatic corps. We're here at the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, which ensures that Canada's foreign affairs run smoothly. I'm pleased to be participating in this committee today. Our colleagues make fine statements, introduce the concept of constructive discussions, and so on. However, what happens when we muzzle former ambassadors, professionals who know how things work and who, unlike others, can help Canada resolve the situation?Canada is having problems with China, but this Prime Minister isn't doing anything to improve the situation. Instead, our experts, who are probably in a better position to resolve the situation than he is, are being muzzled. I'm very disappointed to see that the Liberals refuse to go further and get to the bottom of the matter. I think that this would have been a great opportunity to show Canadians that the government can do things the right way. However, it's the government's decision, and Canadians will suffer the consequences.Thank you.ChinaInternational relationsPolitical influenceMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/23915GuyCaronGuy-CaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaronGuy_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Guy Caron: (1355)[Translation]Thank you.The role of a committee, when it isn't undertaking a study to further examine a given situation, is to ensure that the government remains accountable. In my eight and a half years as a member of Parliament, I've sat on various committees. I've noticed that some committees have forgotten this fundamental rule, particularly when it comes to the government, whether we're talking about the Conservatives in 2011 and 2015 or the Liberals now.Based on the Liberals' comments that I've heard, since the Prime Minister's Office issued an official letter denying that the assistant deputy minister was instructed to contact the two former diplomats, we should simply accept the situation and not look any further, given that the Prime Minister's Office is obviously telling the truth. By sending us this letter, the Prime Minister's Office is saying that either these former diplomats—and we're not talking about just one, but two former diplomats who described the same situation—are lying or exaggerating the seriousness of the situation, or that the assistant deputy minister lied to the two former diplomats when he told them that he was calling on behalf or at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office.In any case, the situation is serious. Either a senior government official, at the behest of the Prime Minister's Office, contacted former diplomats to tell them that they should perhaps tone down their comments and align their statements because it would be more prudent to do so from an electoral standpoint, or these people claimed that this occurred, which would also be an issue. I'm trying to understand why the government members aren't more willing, on behalf of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, to conduct a more in-depth study of this highly problematic situation. Are we simply going to say that a letter of intent from the Prime Minister's Office states that this wasn't really the goal, that there were misinterpretations and that we, as a committee, will refuse to conduct a more in-depth study of the situation? That doesn't make any sense.I think that the government members must understand their role in this committee. This isn't the House of Commons, and we have the right to be called by our last names because, in theory, we don't represent any constituencies or political parties. We must finally realize that we're working for the citizens of this country. We have a duty, as the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, to study an ethically problematic situation that has been reported in the media and for which we don't currently have a satisfactory solution. Given all these factors, the government members of this committee should take their responsibilities seriously and agree to hear from these people in order to get to the bottom of the matter. I'm not suggesting that these people have been intimidated. However, I would say that they've at least been subjected to undue pressure from the Prime Minister's Office. If this has indeed occurred, the Prime Minister's Office must understand that the situation is unacceptable. It's not enough to say that people on the other side didn't really understand the goal.I want to say one last time that the government members must understand the situation and their role in the committee, which is to ensure that their government remains accountable. If they fail to do so, we won't have any power to ensure accountability on our side.Thank you.ChinaInternational relationsOffice of the Prime MinisterPolitical influencePublic Service and public servantsMichaelLevittYork CentreMichaelLevittYork Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)): (1100)[English] Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the special meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.[Translation]We are here to study the nomination of the Honourable Nicholas Kasirer to the Supreme Court of Canada.This is the third time we have conducted such an exercise.[English]We did this for Justice Rowe and Justice Martin when they were nominated. It is a pleasure to be joined today by the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, and the Right Honourable Kim Campbell, our former prime minister.[Translation]Ms. Campbell is the chairperson of the Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments.[English]This afternoon, colleagues, we will be joining the Senate's constitutional and legal affairs committee and parliamentarians from non-recognized parties to question the nominee. Before that, we have the opportunity this morning to hear from Minister Lametti and from former prime minister Kim Campbell about the process that led to the nomination of Judge Kasirer and to ask them questions about it. Minister of Justice and Attorney General David Lametti, I will turn the floor over to you.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): (1100)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I will make a statement, then the Right Honourable Kim Campbell will speak, and then I will speak again. Afterwards, we will answer your questions together.Mr. Chairman, Right Honourable Kim Campbell, members of the committee and other parliamentarians in the room, good morning. I also note the presence of the Honourable Irwin Cotler, whom I thank for being here.First and foremost, we recognize that we are on traditional unceded Algonquin lands. It is very important to underline this fact today.I would like to thank the chair for convening this extraordinary meeting of the committee. I also thank all honourable members for being here today. I recognize, of course, that many of them have changed their summer plans to be with us. I am very grateful to them.As the chair has just pointed out, this is the third time our government has implemented its reformed process for appointing judges to the Supreme Court of Canada.[English]The modifications we introduced in 2016 are designed to ensure greater openness, transparency and accountability in the appointments process. Many of you here today are seasoned participants, having been part of the 2016 and 2017 processes that resulted in the appointments respectively of justices Rowe and Martin. Madam Campbell was the chair of those committees as well.[Translation]As you can imagine, I have followed these processes with great interest and attention. It is now a great honour and privilege for me to participate more directly in the process to fill the position that will become vacant on September 15, 2019, following the retirement of Justice Clément Gascon.I would like to take this opportunity to once again thank Justice Gascon for his contribution and to acknowledge the courage he has shown throughout his career.(1105)[English]I have the pleasure of appearing today with the Right Honourable Kim Campbell, who joins us via video conference from Vancouver. Ms. Campbell previously served as the chairperson of the Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments. Ms. Campbell also served as the chairperson of the current advisory board that was adapted to ensure the appointment of a judge properly grounded in the legal experience of Quebec and its legal tradition. Ms. Campbell's extensive experience with the selection process has been an invaluable resource in this process. We are grateful for her continued dedication to serving Canadians in this role and we say thank you.In a few moments, I will turn things over to Ms. Campbell to describe the specific work the advisory board undertook in order to produce the short list of candidates for the Prime Minister's consideration. Before doing so, however, I would like to briefly outline the unique aspects of the current process to fill this Quebec seat on the court. [Translation]According to the Supreme Court Act, three seats on the court are reserved for lawyers from Quebec. Under sections 5 and 6 of the act, only judges of the Court of Appeal or the Superior Court of Quebec, or those who have been members in good standing of the Barreau du Québec for at least 10 years, may be appointed.As specified by the Supreme Court of Canada in the Reference re Supreme Court Act, ss. 5 and 6, these appointment criteria are intended to ensure that Quebec's unique legal traditions are well represented on the court. These criteria make it possible not only to ensure that the court is able to handle civil law cases, but also to ensure its legitimacy in the eyes of the Quebec population.That is why the qualifications and evaluation criteria stipulate that a "deep knowledge of the civil law tradition is essential for all candidates to the three Quebec seats".In addition, on May 15, 2019, the Prime Minister announced a memorandum of understanding between our government and that of Quebec. This memorandum of understanding sets out the process for filling the position that will become vacant following Justice Gascon's retirement. As with the process for seats that do not belong to Quebec, this process is based primarily on the work of the independent and impartial advisory board, which is responsible for assessing nominations and developing a short list of three to five names to recommend to the Prime Minister.The composition of the advisory board has been adjusted to accurately reflect the reality of Quebec, its legal practices and its civil law tradition.As mentioned, the advisory board was chaired by Ms. Campbell and included another member whom, as Federal Minister of Justice, I had been asked to appoint. The other six members were selected in such a way as to ensure adequate representation with respect to Quebec and civil law. These six other members were appointed by the Quebec Minister of Justice, the Barreau du Québec, the Quebec Division of the Canadian Bar Association, the Canadian Judicial Council and the Deans of the Quebec Law Faculties and the Civil Law Section of the Faculty of Law of the University of Ottawa.[English] The selected members, all of whom are functionally bilingual, represented a distinguished set of individuals who undertook their important responsibilities with great care and dedication. I would like to thank them, on behalf of the Prime Minister and our government, for their exceptional service throughout this process. They did a better job than those working the lights today.Voices: Oh, oh!Hon. David Lametti: The core mandate of the advisory board was to assess candidates against the published assessment criteria and to submit to the Prime Minister the names of three to five qualified and functionally bilingual candidates. [Translation]In accordance with the agreement with the Government of Quebec, after receiving the short list provided by the advisory board, I forwarded it to the Quebec Minister of Justice. We then conducted our own separate confidential consultations on the preselected applications.For my part, I consulted with the Chief Justice of Canada, a number of my cabinet colleagues, the opposition justice critics, members of your committee and the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, among others. The Quebec Minister of Justice conducted her own consultations, including with the Chief Justice of Quebec, before reporting her findings to the Premier of Quebec. After the conclusion of this consultation period, the Premier of Quebec and I submitted our respective recommendations to the Prime Minister of Canada to inform his choice as to whom to appoint.(1110)[English] Before turning the floor over to Ms. Campbell, I would like to speak briefly about the importance of confidentiality in this process, given the concerns that have rightly been raised about improper disclosures surrounding the 2017 selection process. As I have said previously, the disclosure of confidential information regarding candidates for judicial appointments is unacceptable. I want to stress that I took strict measures to ensure that confidentiality was respected. This process has implemented strict confidentiality measures throughout. The terms of reference for the advisory board contain provisions specifically designed to ensure that the privacy interests of all candidates are respected. This includes a requirement that advisory board members sign a confidentiality agreement prior to their appointment. In addition, the agreement with Quebec explicitly states that the sharing of, and consultations on, the short list are to be conducted in a confidential manner. In terms of next steps in the process, in addition to the advisory board's critical contribution in developing the short list, today's hearing is another important element. It provides an opportunity for all of you, as parliamentarians, to hear from and question the government regarding the selection process and our choice of nominee. Parliamentarians, and Canadians more broadly, will have the opportunity to become acquainted with the nominee through the question and answer session that has been scheduled for this afternoon. Having provided this context, I would now look to Ms. Campbell to describe the work that the advisory board undertook in fulfilling its mandate. I will then say a few words about the Prime Minister's nominee to the Supreme Court of Canada, the Honourable Nicholas Kasirer. Madam Campbell.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrivacy and data protectionPrivate consultationsProvince of QuebecAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1125)[English]Thank you.Mr. Lametti. KimCampbellRight Hon.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1125)[Translation]Thank you very much, Ms. Campbell.I will take the floor for a few moments again to talk to you about the Honourable Nicholas Kasirer.Born in 1960 and originally from Montreal, Mr. Justice Kasirer was called to the Quebec Bar in 1987, after graduating with distinction from the University of Toronto in 1981 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics and Political Science and a Bachelor of Civil Law and Common Law degree from McGill University in 1985. He also studied at the University of Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne, where he obtained an advanced degree in international public law in 1986.[English]Following his admission to the Barreau du Québec, Justice Kasirer clerked for the Hon. Jean Beetz at the Supreme Court of Canada. He then served as professor at his and my alma mater, McGill University, from 1989 to 2009, and he was the dean of the faculty of law at McGill from 2003 to 2009, when he was appointed to the Court of Appeal of Quebec.Prior to his career at McGill, from 1996 to 2003, he was the director of the Quebec Research Centre of Private and Comparative Law, as well as a part-time instructor at the Barreau du Québec and a guest professor at the Université de Paris.[Translation]Judge Kasirer is perfectly bilingual. As you will have the pleasure to see this afternoon, he speaks both Molière and Shakespeare's language equally well.A prolific author, he has participated in the writing of nearly two dozen books, as author or contributor, and has written numerous legal publications, mainly devoted to the law of obligations, property law, family law and the law of wills and estates, both in civil law and in common law.Known for his generosity and great collegiality, Judge Kasirer has had, as the Prime Minister said, an exceptional career as a judge and professor, and has earned the esteem of his peers in Canada and around the world. There is no doubt that he will be an asset to the Supreme Court of Canada.[English] I would like to conclude by reiterating my sincere thanks, on behalf of the government, to the Right Honourable Kim Campbell, each member of the advisory committee, each person who was consulted and each candidate who applied in this process. You have helped to ensure the strength of one of Canada's most treasured institutions, a Supreme Court that is respected and admired throughout the world. We are very grateful for your contribution.[Translation]I would also like to thank the Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs and his staff, who provided exceptional and professional administrative support throughout the process.Finally, I thank my colleagues in Parliament for helping to place the values of democracy, transparency and accountability at the heart of the selection of judges for our final court of appeal.Ways to involve parliamentarians in the process of appointing judges to the Supreme Court of Canada have been sought for at least 20 years. I believe this is a crucial role, and members of the 42nd Parliament can be proud to have made progress toward consultation and inclusion.Thanks to this continued support for the core values of transparency, inclusion and accountability, the selection process for judges of the Supreme Court of Canada will continue to strengthen the confidence of Canadians in this fundamental institution, as will the appointment of outstanding jurists who reflect the diversity and bilingual and bijural character of our country.Thank you.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1130)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Campbell, and thank you very much, Mr. Lametti. We tried very hard to get the lighting right for you throughout that entire presentation.Just for everybody's edification, the issue is building-wide, not just in this room. Public Works is trying to resolve it. Please don't blame the staff here for the lighting issue. They're not the ones doing it.We'll do two rounds of questions now.[Translation]We'll start with the Conservative Party.Ms. Raitt, you have the floor. DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1130)[English]As you know and as I've said many times in the House of Commons and in other public fora, including in front of the press, I make no comment on anything with respect to that file. Anything that I can or might say might have an impact on ongoing litigation. Therefore, I'm very careful in that regard. Thank you.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1135)[English]I don't know. The Privacy Commissioner has stated that he has opened an investigation into the matter, and I'm not going to comment on his ongoing investigation. I will say that federal departments will co-operate fully with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and that I took steps in this current process both in terms of limiting the number of people who had access to the process within my department, as well as segregating the server and doing everything securely that we needed to do to make sure that there was no breach of privacy from my department.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1135)[English]Sorry, but we're out of time.Ms. Khalid.LisaRaittHon.MiltonIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1140)[Translation]Thank you very much. Ms. Moore now has the floor.IqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, NDP): (1140)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I would like to go back briefly to the short list submitted to the Prime Minister.According to media reports, the person selected for this appointment was the first choice of the Government of Quebec, but no one can confirm or deny this information.Do you think it would be preferable, while of course keeping the names of the other candidates confidential, that the Government of Quebec or the advisory board have permission to confirm whether the candidate selected by the Prime Minister was their first choice?From what I understand, we make recommendations. So the Prime Minister could very well, even if this is very rarely the case, choose someone who is not on the list of recommendations, or not choose the first choice of the advisory board, but rather the second or third person on the list.Would it be better if the Prime Minister could confirm that he opted for the first choice on the list? This would give us the assurance that he respects the non-partisan will of the various people who submitted recommendations.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1145)[Translation]The question is clearly intended for me.I do not agree with this proposal. According to the Supreme Court Act, this decision belongs to the Prime Minister , i.e. the governor in council. We do not want to weaken the Prime Minister's ability to make the best choice, in his opinion. He accepts the recommendations, of course, but it is up to him to decide.I made recommendations based on the consultations I had conducted here in Ottawa. If I had disclosed my recommendations and my Quebec counterpart had done the same, it would have given an idea of the short list submitted to the Prime Minister and thus reduced the confidentiality of the process. We want to protect the privacy of the candidates who applied, especially those on the short list.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[Translation]I understand that we must be careful about what information we are allowed to disclose or not. However, should we not at least know whether the Prime Minister followed the recommendations of the advisory board or whether he decided to move in his own direction? Would that not be transparency?Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1145)[Translation]The problem is that if I make a recommendation that is not included in the final decision, journalists and you, my parliamentary colleagues around the table, will ask me who I recommended. It would become too difficult to protect the confidentiality of the process. It is also necessary to protect, with all due respect, the ability of the Prime Minister to make his own choice.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[Translation]The same thing is happening right now. Everyone is trying to find out if Mr. Kasirer was the first choice and is asking questions along these lines. We are still trying to guess whether Mr. Kasirer was the first choice and whether it was respected.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1145)[Translation]It is easier to close the door from the beginning. Otherwise, we could go down a slippery slope.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPrime MinisterChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[Translation]I think Ms. Campbell would like to comment on this.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[Translation]Very well.AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalKimCampbellRight Hon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[Translation]Fine.I would now like to know how language abilities are assessed. Do candidates take written language tests or do they do a self-assessment of their language skills?Federal judgesLanguage testingPolitical appointmentsKimCampbellRight Hon.KimCampbellRight Hon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1145)[Translation]Thank you very much. Your time is up, Ms. Moore.Mr. Fraser, you have the floor. KimCampbellRight Hon.ColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1155)[English]As Ms. Campbell pointed out, on a court you have a dynamic when cases are heard and there's interaction amongst the judges both in the hearing as well as in the preparation prior to the hearing, and then in the decision-making phase afterwards, where there will be back and forth between and amongst judges to make better decisions. That doesn't mean unanimity. There will be dissenting and concurring judgments in which a judge may feel strongly about a point or the decisions and outcome generally, but you'll get better decisions.I had the good fortune of hearing Guido Calabresi speak two weeks ago about the American Supreme Court. He clerked under the Warren court and he felt it was an outstanding court because the judges, specifically, spoke to each other. They all brought different kinds of expertise to the court and were quite collegial, and he felt that the kinds of judgments they came up with were better because of their collaboration and collegiality, and we would hope for the same kind of thing here.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesLabour relationsPolitical appointmentsColinFraserWest NovaAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1155)[English]Thank you very much.[Translation]We will now move on to the second round of questions. This round will be a little different; it will be six minutes for the Liberal Party, six minutes for the Conservative Party, six minutes for the Liberal Party, five minutes for the Conservative Party and three minutes for the NDP.We will start with Mr. Ehsassi.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1200)[English]First of all, we have done this in practice. We have enshrined a practice that puts such a high premium on functional bilingualism that it practically is a bar in being selected. We haven't done that formally.I'm not sure it's a good idea, formally, because there may be other needs of the court at some point—for example, to appoint an indigenous person—where we may have to soften that requirement down the road. I think we're at a nice compromise right now, where, in effect, there is a requirement of functional bilingualism through the process without having to worry about either the constitutionality of such a provision or amending an act formally.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsAliEhsassiWillowdaleAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much. Mr. Deltell now has the floor.AliEhsassiWillowdaleGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): (1200)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Dear colleagues, I am very happy to see you again today.Former Prime Minister Campbell, may I extend my best regards. I would like to congratulate you on the quality of your French. The next time you leave Africa, I invite you to stop in Ottawa, which is on the way, rather than going to the other end of the country.First of all, I would like to say that I am very honoured to participate in this meeting of the committee today. As stipulated in article 10 of the MOU, the minister must consult with the opposition parties. My colleague Lisa Raitt invited me to represent her during these consultations, an honour that I accepted with great humility. That is where my comments end on this subject, since we cannot say where, with whom or how things went. Indeed, all this must remain confidential.Mr. Minister, in your opening statement earlier, you mentioned the importance of respecting confidentiality and ensuring that there are no leaks of any kind.As you know, there was a leak involving an aspiring Supreme Court judge in the previous year. On April 11, this committee met on this subject. However, the parliamentary group of which you are a member refused to allow the committee to examine the matter and to hold an inquiry.How do you think Canadians can be reassured if your parliamentary committee refuses to allow an investigation to be conducted on such a sensitive subject as a leak concerning the appointment of a judge to the Supreme Court?Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1200)[Translation]First of all, thank you for conducting this consultation during the process. It was very valuable. Your comments were very important.Yes, it was important. We have acted accordingly, especially for this process. We made sure there would be no leaks. We have taken steps in this direction.There is also an officer of Parliament, the Privacy Commissioner, who addresses these issues. We will collaborate with him during his investigations.As a government, we took the leaks very seriously. We made sure it wouldn't happen again.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]So why did you refuse to allow an inquiry by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights? It is our job as parliamentarians to investigate such incidents.Federal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]The Privacy Commissioner has the authority to conduct an investigation. We believe it is a good non-partisan process. There will be an investigation and I hope there will be suggestions.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]Mr. Lametti, a little over six months ago, you were appointed to the very important and prestigious position of Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. The least we can say is that for the past six months, your term of office has been anything but a long, quiet river. I had the opportunity to tell you in private.One of the events that occurred over the past six months has been the SNC-Lavalin scandal, which has literally undermined the confidence of Canadians in their justice system. For two months, this situation monopolized the attention of Canadians, for negative reasons. However, last week we learned that one of the architects of this scandal was back in the Canadian Prime Minister's entourage.How do you think Mr. Butts' return will create a sense of trust among Canadians in their justice system?Federal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]As I said earlier to your colleague and to my colleague, I am not commenting on anything that concerns the SNC-Lavalin case, because trials are ongoing in the courts and everything I say could be interpreted or misinterpreted. So I won't comment on that.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]In fact, Mr. Lametti, there must be justice, but, as the saying goes, there must also be the appearance of justice. Now the architect of the SNC-Lavalin scandal, the one who undermined Canadians' confidence in the judicial system, is returning to the office of the Prime Minister to play a key role in the next election campaign. In the face of this return, how can you remain neutral, as Minister of Justice?Federal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]Unfortunately, the answer is the same. I'm not going to comment on that, for the reasons I just gave.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]It is unfortunate for Canadians, Minister.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]As Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, I must respect the justice system. I must be careful not to have any influence on the ongoing trials. Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesJudicial independencePolitical appointmentsGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]This is precisely what caused the SNC-Lavalin scandal, sir; the infiltration of partisan politics into the judicial process.Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]In my case, it's not a matter of politics. I do so out of respect for the courts as Minister of Justice. Not wanting to have an influence on trials is a form of privilege. It is very important for me, in my role, to protect the judicial system.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]Unfortunately, this was not the case during the SNC-Lavalin scandal.Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]I did what I had to do as Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada to protect the justice system and respect the role of the courts.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]Do you think the justice system has grown out of this scandal?Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]I am very proud of our justice system in Canada.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]In this particular case, Minister?Criminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]We have several institutions that did their job...Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]In this case?DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]... everywhere in the system.Attorney General of CanadaCriminal prosecutionsFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsPolitical influenceSNC-Lavalin Group Inc.GérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-Laurent//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88535GérardDeltellGérard-DeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/DeltellGérard_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Gérard Deltell: (1205)[Translation]In this particular case?DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1205)[Translation]As I just said, I am very proud of the way the system worked.Attorney General of CanadaGérardDeltellLouis-Saint-LaurentAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1205)[Translation]Unfortunately, your time is up, Mr. Deltell.[English] I just want to remind everyone that we are here today to talk about the nomination of the Supreme Court justice and the process that led up to that. I've been very flexible so far in permitting questions, and the minister has been very kind in answering those questions, but that is what we're here to talk about.Next, Ms. Vandenbeld and Ms. Fortier will be sharing their time. DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunAnitaVandenbeldOttawa West—Nepean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1210)[Translation]I would just like to support what Ms. Campbell just said. The quality of Judge Kasirer's French is exceptional. This is a very important aspect of the process. I think the linguistic criterion has clearly been met.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsMonaFortierOttawa—VanierMonaFortierOttawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1210)[Translation]Yes, Judge Kasirer is an anglophone, but he speaks French perfectly. Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesOfficial languages policyPolitical appointmentsMonaFortierOttawa—VanierMonaFortierOttawa—Vanier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1210)[Translation]Thank you very much.Ms. Raitt, you have the floor.MonaFortierOttawa—VanierLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I have said from the outset that my department will co-operate, and as I said, I am confident that the leak did not come from the very few people in my ministry—Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I'm going to let the Privacy Commissioner do his work.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I'm not going to comment on anything that's an ongoing investigation by the Privacy Commissioner, other than to say, as I've already said, that there will be co-operation.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I'm letting the Privacy Commissioner conduct his investigation, as I've stated publicly on a number of occasions and as you have rightfully pointed out.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]I was not the minister at the time, so I wasn't privy to all of those consultations.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1215)[English]Once again, those conversations would come under the purview of the Privacy Commissioner. Therefore, I'm going to let the Privacy Commissioner do his work. He's an officer of Parliament. We have respect for officers of Parliament. I'm going to let him do his work unrestricted by—Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesInformation leaksPolitical appointmentsLisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1215)[English]There was a motion moved.Do you have it in writing, Ms. Raitt?LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1220)[English]You have it in scribble. Okay, what we will do is this. I am going to give the floor to Ms. Moore, and then we will come back to tell you whether the motion is receivable or not after I've consulted with the clerks. Ms. Moore.LisaRaittHon.MiltonChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.There are currently two major justice review projects in Quebec.The first area of reflection concerns family law reform, including the rights and obligations of common-law spouses, stepparents and grandparents. The reflection also focuses on the impact of the use of assisted reproduction techniques on family law and inheritance.Another major area of reflection is how the justice system treats and judges sexual offences, particularly in cases where multiple charges have been laid, but only a small number have been retained for trial or court proceedings.Among the candidates for the position of Quebec judge on the Supreme Court of Canada, have we sought expertise in these two particular areas where major reforms are being considered?Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1220)[Translation]Obviously, knowledge of civil law is a criterion. Much of what you have just described is a matter of civil law. Another part belongs to the criminal law, which is under federal jurisdiction. These are questions that have been assessed by the advisory board.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Fine.You mentioned Judge Kasirer's publications on family law, but I would like to know if he has any specific knowledge of family law and the reforms that will take place in Quebec. Family lawFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1220)[Translation]I would say so. I know that, as his record shows, he has published texts in this field and has taught family law for years, especially family property law, property law. He has also taught criminal law courses during his career.Ms. Campbell may add some additional information on this subject, but on paper, Judge Kasirer's file clearly indicates that he has exceptional knowledge in this area.Attorney General of CanadaFamily lawFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Very well.The fact remains that some sexual offences are referred to civil courts, although they are criminal in nature. This is currently the case in Quebec.Federal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunDavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—Verdun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88501DavidLamettiHon.David-LamettiLaSalle—Émard—VerdunLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/LamettiDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. David Lametti: (1220)[Translation]I must refer to Judge Kasirer's background. That said, we must also consider his experience as a judge since 2009. He has been seized of several cases and has handed down several judgments.Attorney General of CanadaFederal judgesPolitical appointmentsSex offencesChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Ms. Campbell, do you have anything to add?DavidLamettiHon.LaSalle—Émard—VerdunKimCampbellRight Hon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1220)[Translation]Very well, thank you.KimCampbellRight Hon.AnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1220)[English]Before I get to the motion by Ms. Raitt, I want to thank the Right Honourable Kim Campbell for her continued service to this country and for the incredible work she continues to do in this and many other regards. Thank you so much on behalf of the committee and all Canadians. I know that all members of all parties would join with me in that.Thank you so much, Minister Lametti, for being here today and giving us very frank answers to our questions.I will excuse the witnesses because I think they don't need to sit there the entire time as we go through the motion, but you're welcome to stay, of course, to the extent you would like. I am going to suspend for a second to let the minister and Ms. Campbell leave, and then I'll come back to the motion. (1220)(1235)ChristineMooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English] I am now resuming the meeting. I wanted to look at all of the issues surrounding the motion. There are some small issues in terms of rewriting it, but I think Ms. Raitt is comfortable providing slightly revised wording. Therefore, I'm not going to get into that issue.The issue I was trying to look at was that we had met on April 11, and Mr. Cooper had presented the following motion:That the Committee sit additional hours to study the leak of information surrounding the Supreme Court of Canada selection process, particularly as it pertains to the leak of information surrounding the Chief Justice of the Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench; and that the Committee report its findings to the House no later than Friday, May 31, 2019.I was concerned that this was an issue that the committee had already visited and defeated, which would make it not receivable. However, in the last three and a half years I have always erred in favour of the receivability of motions. I can say that the motion was worded based on something that Ms. Campbell said today. In principle, I think it's better to allow the motion to come forward and to have a discussion on it, and the committee can treat it how it wishes. I'd ask Ms. Raitt to simply reread the motion as the clerk has redrafted it.Committee businessAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1235)[English]Thank you very much.I'll give the floor to whoever....Ms. Raitt.LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1240)[English] Thank you.Does anyone on this side wish to intervene?[Translation]Since there are no other speakers, we will proceed to the vote.LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1240)[Translation]Do the members of the committee have any other comments?[English]Not seeing any, I want to thank everybody for being with us today. I imagine this is perhaps our last meeting before the election, so I wish everybody a very nice summer and a good campaign. The meeting is adjourned. LisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (1325)[English]It's a little harder to ask questions without an opening to work off. The first question I have is this. If somebody calls the RCMP with a suspicion of data theft complaint, how does the RCMP treat that from the get-go?Computer crimeCrime reportingDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1330)[English]At what point does something become federal? If something is provincial jurisdiction but affects multiple provinces, does each province have to deal with it separately or is the RCMP able to step in at that point?Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1330)[English] In the case of the incident we're here to discuss, which is obviously a major incident, is the RCMP being kept apprised of what's happening, even if it's not their investigation? Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1330)[English]Understood.Okay. MarkFlynnJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC): (1335)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Mr. Flynn. I'll come back to you in a few moments.The leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, Andrew Scheer, asked me to contact my fellow committee members to convene this meeting. He sent an open letter to the media on July 12, and I'd like to paraphrase a few paragraphs.Like the vast majority of Quebecers and all Canadians, I am worried about the the security of our information technology systems, identity theft and privacy protection.This is a very serious situation, and I understand the fear and anxiety of the victims, whose personal information, including their social insurance number, was stolen. They are worried about how this will affect them in the future. They will have to spend considerable time and energy dealing with this.It is reassuring to see that the leadership at Desjardins Group is taking the matter seriously and working hard to protect and reassure members. The federal government, too, has a responsibility and duty to support all victims of identity theft by learning from the past and strengthening cybersecurity in partnership with all stakeholders across the industry.… I want the victims of this data breach, as well as all Canadians, to know that we stand with them and that a future Conservative government would be committed to tackling the privacy challenges confronting Canadians.Computer crimeCorrespondence and lettersDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionReferences to membersScheer, AndrewJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1335)[Translation]We want to be very clear about what an important and serious issue this is—so important, in fact, that we felt it was necessary for the committee to meet on this sunny July 15.Mr. Flynn, you answered the questions of my Liberal colleagues, but I find the RCMP's response to the situation rather weak. Allow me to explain. Some 2.9 million Desjardins account holders are very worried right now. About 2.5 million are Quebecers, and 300,000 are in Ontario and other parts of the country. For the past three weeks, constituents have been contacting our offices non-stop, and the government has yet to respond. The reason for today's emergency meeting is to figure out what the federal government can do to help affected Canadians.You said the RCMP isn't really involved, but can't it do something given that it has its own cybersecurity unit, works with organizations like Interpol and has access to other resources? I don't want to interfere in a police investigation, but we heard that people's personal information was being sold abroad. Isn't there technology or techniques the RCMP can use to detect potential fraud?Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1340)[Translation]I understand what you're saying about the investigation probably being conducted by the Sûreté du Québec, but what the Conservatives and NDP want to know is this. What can the RCMP do about the personal information of 2.9 million people that was handed over to criminals? I don't want to discuss the investigation; I want to know whether you have resources. If you don't, we want to know. That's why we are here today. If personal data was sold on the international market, neither the Quebec provincial police nor Laval police is going to deal with it. I think it falls under RCMP jurisdiction. Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1340)[Translation]Since the problem came to light, has the RCMP set up a special unit to help deal with it?Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé (Beloeil—Chambly, NDP): (1340)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for being here today, Mr. Flynn.It's important that we talk about this situation because, as my colleague pointed out, people are worried. It's essential that we find out more about the federal government's capacity to take action and the means we have at our disposal, especially since the committee just wrapped up a study on cybersecurity in the financial sector before Parliament rose in June. I'll touch on some of the things the committee looked at in its study because they pertain to the matter at hand.I'd like to follow up on some of your answers. First of all, it is rumoured that personal data was sold to criminal organizations outside Quebec and Canada. I know you can't comment on this case specifically, but at what point does the RCMP step in to assist the highly competent people at such organizations as the Sûreté du Québec when a case involves a criminal organization operating outside Canada that the RCMP is already monitoring?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1345)[Translation]Thank you.You said local police forces, the Sûreté du Québec and the Ontario Provincial Police were very competent when it came to dealing with cybersecurity issues and had significant powers. Does the RCMP have special expertise or information that could help them?The reason I ask is that the government touted the consolidation of the cybersecurity capacity of the Communications Security Establishment, or CSE, the RCMP and all the other agencies concerned as a way to ensure information was shared and everyone was on the same page. I'll be asking Mr. Boucher, of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, about this as well when we hear from him.Do you engage municipal or provincial police, as the case may be, in the same way?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInterdepartmental relationsPrivacy and data protectionRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1345)[Translation]Thank you. I don't mean to cut you off, but I have a limited amount of time.When the committee was studying cybersecurity in the financial sector, we talked about the fact that people tend to think of state actors as being the threat. I won't name them, but I'm sure everyone has an idea of the countries that could pose a threat to Canada's cybersecurity.I realize you can't talk about it, but in this particular case, we are dealing with an individual—an individual who poses a threat because the stolen data can be sold and could end up in the hands of state actors. One of the things the committee heard was that individuals represent the greatest threat. Is that always the case? Does a lone criminal wanting to steal data pose a greater threat than certain countries we would tend to suspect?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1350)[Translation]I have to cut you off because I'm almost out of time.Has the presence of organized groups or countries with ill intentions seeking to buy personal data created some sort of marketplace? Do individuals like the alleged perpetrator in this case have an incentive, albeit a malicious one, to steal information and sell it to interested parties? Does the existence of these groups incentivize individuals who have the expertise to do things they wouldn't normally do?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupOrganized crimePrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1350)[Translation]Thank you again for taking the time to meet with us today.MarkFlynnJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin (Rivière-du-Nord, BQ): (1350)[Translation]If I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask the witnesses questions. I'm not sure whether the agenda allows for that, but if so, I'd like a few moments.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1350)[Translation]No?JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard (Montarville, Lib.): (1355)[Translation]I would like to preface my remarks by pointing out that the incident we are discussing today falls entirely within the parameters of the study we began in January on cybersecurity and financial crime. As suggested by my fellow Liberal members, I put forward a motion that we study the issue. That shows how deeply concerned we are about cybersecurity in financial institutions. I'm delighted that Mr. Scheer commended our efforts in relation to the study. He fully supports my motion, and I'm glad that his party is joining the Liberal Party in its efforts to address the issue of cybersecurity in financial institutions, so thank you.Mr. Flynn, I think it's important to speak to Canadians today to help people manage their expectations when something as serious as identity theft occurs.The public wants the police to conduct a criminal investigation. Generally, people want something done about the loss of their personal information. They want their identity to be restored, without having to worry that five, 10 or 15 years down the road, they will once again be targeted. In terms of a criminal investigation, what are people's expectations?Computer crimeCriminal investigations and hearingsDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1355)[Translation]It's very hard for people to understand just how difficult it is to prove that you are the person you say you are. How are people supposed to prove their identity? It's extremely challenging when three different people are out there using the same name and social insurance number.Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1400)[Translation]To a certain extent, the criminal investigation is a way to ensure justice is served, provided that it leads to the perpetrators being nabbed, the evidence being used to successfully prosecute them and their being punished, mainly sent to prison.That said, data on the black market represent virtual assets, ones that aren't housed in a physical location. Data can be located in many places. I'm not trying to alarm people, but it's important for them to understand that, even if the perpetrators are arrested, it doesn't necessarily mean that their data are no longer vulnerable and their identity can be restored.Allegations of fraud and fraudComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1400)[Translation]Mr. Boucher, your centre provides advice to other organizations. How can a business protect itself from its own staff? What advice do you have for businesses in that regard?As we saw this winter, there is every reason to believe that banks, financial institutions and financial service companies have the best possible technology to protect their data from outside threats. What concerns us are threats from the inside. I don't think any software out there can protect against that risk. How do you advise organizations to safeguard against the human element when it comes to fraud?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementMarkFlynnAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke (Beauport—Limoilou, CPC): (1410)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm very pleased to be here today.Thank you, gentlemen, for being here and giving up your time to reassure Canadians and answer our questions.One of the cornerstones of the social contract that exists across this land is the protection of citizens, not just the protection they offer one another, but also the protection provided to them by the government. For the past three weeks, constituents in all of our ridings have been profoundly concerned. Two days after the data breach was made public, people started coming to my office. When I would knock on people's doors, that's all they would talk about. That tells me people are genuinely concerned and feel that the government has done nothing in response.The question my constituents want you to answer, Mr. Boucher, is very simple. Can the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security indeed ensure the 2.9 million Canadians affected by this data breach are properly protected, yes or no?Does your centre have the tools to respond to the situation and ensure the victims of identity theft are protected?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1415)[Translation]I'm not talking about what's already happened. I'm talking about what's going to happen next. That's what worries people. I want to know whether the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security has the capacity to deal with international or national fraudsters who send text messages or whatever it may be.Does your centre have the capacity to deal with that?Desjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1415)[Translation]I'm going to take advantage of your cybersecurity expertise.Is Canada's current social insurance number regime appropriate in a modern age dominated by the Internet? We are at the point now where people shop on their cell phones and pay for their purchases at the cash in mere seconds. Is our system of social insurance numbers adequate in the world we live in?Desjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1415)[Translation]Superintendent, my next question is along the same lines as that of my fellow member, Mr. Motz.Whether they've approached me on the street, come to my office or answered the door when I was canvassing, everyone has asked me the same question. They want to know what crimes these fraudsters are going to commit down the road. They want to know what to expect. What crimes will the 2.9 million victims of this massive data breach be the target of in the future?In addition, how long will it be before those crimes are committed? The media are reporting all kinds of things. We are hearing that it will take five or 10 years before the fraudsters do anything—that they'll wait until the dust has settled.Desjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1420)[Translation]About 15 years ago, I was in an IRC channel—I'm not sure whether you're familiar with that forum—and someone was selling credit card numbers, along with the three-digit code on the back and the billing address. Everything was ready to go. The person was offering to sell them to people. I felt that was wrong and I wanted to call the police or some other authority, but no one replied or knew what to do.If someone saw something similar happening on the Internet today, is there someplace they could call to report it?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1420)[Translation]What powers does the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security have? What can the centre do?Canadian Centre for Cyber SecurityComputer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1420)[Translation]I mean generally. At the centre, do you accept comments from people on the outside, or do you work only with businesses? Explain how it works, if you don't mind.Canadian Centre for Cyber SecurityComputer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1420)[Translation]Earlier, we were talking about passwords. Nowadays, we see two-factor authentication being used a lot more for bank accounts. Could the same thing be done for social insurance numbers?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1420)[Translation]I'd like to revisit the issue of a unique identifier.Other models exist. On other committees, we've talked about the popular Estonian model, I believe. It's a system that's in line with our discussions on open banking. All the information is centralized and people can access it using a unique identification number.At the end of the day, no matter what you call it, a social insurance number is a unique identification number, so it's important to understand the system's limitations. It's all well and good to have the ultimate ultra-modern system, but if a single unique identifier is assigned to an individual, the information will always be vulnerable if someone gets a hold of it.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1420)[Translation]Does your centre manage its employees' personal information itself?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1420)[Translation]How do you protect against an employee who wakes up in a foul mood one day and decides to help the other side?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupHuman resourcesPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1425)[Translation]Is your approach used elsewhere in the market? Has another organization established a culture of security similar to yours?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupHuman resourcesPrivacy and data protectionRisk managementAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1425)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Boucher.AndréBoucherJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1425)[English]Yes, please.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1425)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Boucher, I didn't get a chance to ask you questions earlier.My first question is about something your colleague Scott Jones said when he appeared before the committee as part of the other study we've been referring to a lot today. He said it was important that institutions and businesses report data breaches and thefts that affect them.In its recommendation, the committee remained rather vague. Should it be mandatory to report such breaches to police in order to minimize the impact on the public and catch those responsible?That brings me to two other questions. They're for you, Mr. Flynn.Since the information remains online forever, should police treat these threats in the same way they do physical ones? If a murderer or someone else poses a physical threat, I imagine police investigations are conducted with a certain level of urgency. Should the same apply to cyberthreats? Desjardins contacted Quebec provincial police in December, if I'm not mistaken.My last question is about background checks and ongoing security checks. Given how savvy individuals are these days, should these checks become the norm?You can have the rest of my time to answer.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1425)[Translation]Wouldn't it be appropriate to acknowledge that this kind of incident has a lifelong impact on a person and to respond with that in mind?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1425)[Translation]I have a quick question for Mr. Flynn. I say quick, because I have just two minutes and I also have a question for Mr. Boucher.Two years ago, 19 million Canadians were the victims of fraud as a result of a data breach at Equifax. Similar data were stolen in that case. Last year, some 90,000 CIBC and BMO customers were targeted. This year, it's Desjardins members.Can you tell us whether, further to these events, crime involving the use of the stolen data has increased?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1425)[Translation]Yes, but I'm talking about this type of crime.MarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1430)[Translation]All right, but has there been an increase in crime involving data stolen as a result of these breaches? Has the crime rate gone up?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnMarkFlynn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1430)[Translation]I see.My second question is for Mr. Boucher.Mr. Boucher, in your brief, you give three recommendations to deal with increasing cyberthreats. The second is to invest in training and awareness so that people have the tools to respond. Has the federal government earmarked funding to work with the Quebec government to improve the security of Quebecers' information?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMarkFlynnAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1430)[Translation]Sorry, I don't mean to rush you, but as you know, two minutes isn't much time.Are any investments planned, and if so, how much? Has the federal government made so many millions available to work with Quebec on a training program or other cybercrime initiative, for example?Computer crimeDesjardins Groupe-SecurityIndustrial trainingPrivacy and data protectionAndréBoucherAndréBoucher//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1430)[Translation]I see.Thank you.AndréBoucherJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC)): (1445)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Ryan.We now move on to Ms. Boisjoly.AnnetteRyanEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus): (1455)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Boisjoly.Would anyone else like to speak before we go to questions?Mr. Guénette, you have the floor.EliseBoisjolyMaximeGuénette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionThe Vice-Chair (Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus): (1500)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Guénette.If there is no one else, we will begin the question period.Mr. Drouin, you have seven minutes.MaximeGuénetteFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1510)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My thanks to you all for being here today.Listening to you is like being in The Twelve Tasks of Asterix. Let us put ourselves in people's shoes. Their concern is that they have no real idea of what will happen. We asked to meet with you so that we could have some information on the subject. We know that the social insurance number is one measure but is there anything else that should be done in the future to change the system? Could we do as other countries have done, such as providing more digital identification, whether it is by means of fingerprints or something else?Ms. Boisjoly, you say that there about 60 cases per year, but look, 2.9 million people had their data stolen. Are you expecting a major increase in the number of requested changes of social insurance numbers following these identity thefts?I also have a question for you, Mr. Guénette.The people following what is currently happening want to know what is being done. You proposed a good solution, and solutions are what people need. You mentioned people going on the Government of Canada site and opening their financial records. If I understand correctly, by opening your records, you can receive alerts or warnings.It has now been three weeks. We are here today as the result of an emergency request. Why was there no communication with the public, immediately or within a week following the thefts, to let people know what the Government of Canada can do to help? That's what we need to know.I am all ears, Ms. Boisjoly.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1515)[Translation]Okay, but the case before us is about managing a crisis. We are here to find out whether a federal organization can lend a hand to Desjardins, who are taking their own steps to rectify the situation as best they can. Currently, I see some inter-agency measures but really no proactive measures to help Canadians, aside from a message that has already been sent out.In your opinion, why does the government seem to be so passive? Why is it saying nothing? Is it because nothing can be done? Is there no solution?We are looking for solutions because people are concerned. If you are telling us that current agencies do not have the means or the tools to help them, we are going to look for other solutions.Are solutions like the one Desjardins proposed, the Equifax services, quite effective in your experience and as you assess this situation? We are looking to reassure people with things that are true. We don’t want to say just anything.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1515)[Translation]The investigation has nothing to do with it because we know how the data breach happened. We also have an idea of where the data was sent, but, at the moment, that is not what we are interested in. We know that someone, somewhere on the planet, has our information and is in a position to harm us by stealing our identity. So we want to know whether our agencies can become proactively involved or, if not, what can be done.You have a solution in my case, so that is already something that the public could be told about. It is important to do that quickly because people are not in a very good mood during their holidays. Then we will have to see if something else can be done.The issue of the social insurance number has come up everywhere. A number of suggestions have been made. You are responsible for that file and you are saying that nothing can be done, at least not in that way. These are the answers that people need to hear. But the fact remains that we have to leave here telling people what the government can do to help, first Desjardins and second, the 2.9 million people who have been affected. We are hearing a lot about internal protocols, but, for the Canadians listening to us, that does not mean a lot. This is why I want to hear clear answers. I know that you are giving them when you can, but basically, when we leave here, we will need to know what can be done. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersMaximeGuénetteMaximeGuénette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1515)[Translation]As I told you, that really changes nothing. How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?MaximeGuénetteJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1515)[Translation]What is the first thing people should do if their identity is stolen? Call the police? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1515)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you all for taking the time to come here today.Ms. Boisjoly, I was struck by one point in your reply to Mr. Drouin. You said that a personal data breach does not lead to identity theft. That is basically what brings us here today. Canadians want to avoid identity theft, of course; it’s their main concern. I have some questions about it.You said that people should report suspicious activities associated with a social insurance number. I am a federal lawmaker and I don’t know what a suspicious activity associated with a social insurance number is. I have never been a victim of fraud, thank heavens, and the same goes for the people around me, touch wood. However, I do know people who have been victims. They find out when they receive a bill for a cellphone they do not have, or for a Canadian Tire credit card that they never applied for. They end up with debts and obligations that are not theirs. Can you tell me exactly what a suspicious activity associated with a social insurance number is?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1520)[Translation]I am sorry for interrupting you, but my time is limited and I only have one round.The suspicious activities or problematic transactions that we may be able to see on our credit card statements can be associated with all kinds of things. It may be someone who has stolen our mail and obtained our address. That is information that is probably easier to obtain. You rightly mentioned that, in terms of the situation we are discussing today, the person has complementary information. In principle, with all the information that has been stolen, that person could easily call Revenue Canada and obtain a new password. If you have someone’s entire file, you have all the information you need.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1520)[Translation]As for getting a new social insurance number, I have a little difficulty understanding. Basically, the argument is that it becomes complicated for people. In principle, a social insurance number is issued for reasons of efficiency. A unique identifier makes transactions with government agencies easier.Forgive me if this analogy may not be an exact one. If I see a problem with my credit card today, the bank or the company that issued it is still able to transfer a balance or to link the legitimate transactions on my credit card that has been used fraudulently and the new one it sent to me.Why would a financial institution be able to do that, while you are not able to say that someone’s social insurance number has been compromised and to give them a new number? A former employer, for example, might have to take care of questions about that person’s pension. Knowing that is the same person, why are you not able to link the previous social insurance number to a new one? You may perhaps have to do some additional checking, given that the number has been compromised. But I am still having a little difficulty understanding why you can’t do it. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1520)[Translation]I am sorry to interrupt you, but, if I lose my credit card, it does not necessarily mean that it has been stolen. It may have fallen down a sewer somewhere, meaning that it will never be seen or used again. I would still call my bank, Visa or whomever, to ask them to cancel the card. I would still keep checking and I would have some peace of mind, knowing that I am protected.Why not use the same logic for victims of breaches of personal data, especially ones that are all over the news? To make sure they are protected, people want to dot all the i's and cross all the t's that they can. They change their credit cards and everything, as they do when they lose their wallets. Why not proceed in the same way?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1525)[Translation]I have less than a minute left.At the risk of tangling ourselves up in technical details, I would like to understand this better. If an employer wants to use a social insurance number, how does that work? Surely, things come together in some way when you move up the ladder.I have one final question, which goes back to what Mr. Paul-Hus rightly said.Let me take Quebec as an example. When there is flooding, police forces and the Government of Quebec hold public consultations on the spot so that people can attend.Mr. Guénette, I respect what you said, but perhaps advertising campaigns or posts on social media are not enough.Given the extent of this theft, this breach, have you considered organizing consultations in person in the key places in Québec, the major centres of Longueuil, Montreal and elsewhere?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.): (1525)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon to you all and thank you for joining us.I do not normally sit on this committee, but I gladly agreed to replace one of its permanent members.I have had discussions with a number of my constituents in Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, which is to the north of Montreal and includes Deux-Montagnes, Saint-Eustache, Boisbriand and Rosemère. They are very concerned. This is something that has come up all the time since the House adjourned on June 21. That is why I agreed to be here today without hesitation, even though I am not familiar with all the studies that this committee has done.Ms. Ryan, earlier, you began by saying that the Department of Finance establishes the legislation and regulations that govern the Canadian banking system. You then said that oversight of the Canadian financial sector is shared between the federal and provincial governments.Let us look specifically at Quebec. The provinces are responsible for real estate brokers, and mutual funds and investment representatives, and so on. Desjardins is a provincial cooperative institution. Just now, I mentioned my constituents, but my entire family and myself are also among the 2.9 million people affected. This concerns us a great deal and we are wondering what will be the future impact of this theft on our lives.Have you had any requests from Desjardins? Mr. Guénette said that there are ongoing discussions between departments, but have people from Desjardins been in communication with you to get additional information?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAnnetteRyan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1530)[Translation]I have one other question. Are credit bureaus in federal jurisdiction?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1530)[Translation]Okay.Have people from Equifax been in communication with you?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionAnnetteRyanAnnetteRyan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1530)[Translation]Thank you. I have used half of my time and so I am now going to turn to you, Mr. Guénette.You talked earlier about the external rules on preventing identity theft, but you have not spoken a lot about the internal rules. I would like to know about the internal rules in the Canada Revenue Agency. After all, we are here today because data was stolen from the inside. How do things work at the Canada Revenue Agency? Do the employees have to be at certain levels in order to have access to the systems? You talked about centralizing or detecting problems by intervening if necessary. You said that there are strict rules and I would like you to tell me a little more about them. Can people work with their own electronic equipment when they are in front of Canada Revenue Agency screens? I would like to know more about that.Canada Revenue AgencyComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionAnnetteRyanMaximeGuénette//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1530)[Translation]Thank you.MaximeGuénetteJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1540)[English]If they're willing to stay, I'd like to ask my questions.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodAlupaClarkeBeauport—Limoilou//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1540)[English]I would like to intervene with these witnesses, please.David de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1540)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I have some questions for the witnesses, but I will leave it up to you to decide on a good time for me to ask them.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1550)[Translation]Welcome, Mr. Brun, Mr. Cormier and Mr. Berthiaume. Thank you for participating in this exercise. Your presence is greatly appreciated.Mr. Cormier, I'll start by reassuring you that, last January or even earlier, the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security and the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics began to address issues related to the unique identifier. We looked at models from abroad, including Estonia's model, which raises a number of other issues. Before I ask you some more practical questions, I want to point out that the unique identifier is one of the cybersecurity issues. When someone gets their hands on the unique identifier, we'll be faced with the same issue.I'm pleased to hear that you're offering protection to all your members. However, financial institutions tend to charge their clients to protect the clients' data from identity theft. The financial institutions themselves make the offer. Do you have the same philosophy?To have my salary deposited into my bank account and to make transactions, automatic withdrawals and Interac payments, I must give my name, address and social insurance number to the institution that I'm dealing with. However, I must use a third party to protect this information. Why do I need to rely on someone other than the entity to which I give the information?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1555)[Translation]There are two issues involved in what I consider the temporary solution of dealing with a third party. You're asking people to deal with a third party to protect their personal information. Two years ago, this third party was also the victim of hacking. We conducted a study on the matter here.How liable would you be if your clients' personal information were hacked from the entity that you trust, such as Equifax? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupElectronic data protectionPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1555)[Translation]Identity theft is unique in that the data is active and will always remain on the market, unless the person using it dies. The data is virtually present all over the world. It can be used on the black market after 24 hours, as in cases of debit or credit card fraud.The identity theft issue isn't about the security of the client's data at their own financial institution. I'm sure that your systems are up to date in terms of protection from external hacking and that you're fulfilling your responsibility to your clients by meeting the expectations of Quebecers and Canadians. If an issue arises in the account, you'll reimburse the criminally misappropriated money.The identity theft issue is as follows. Let's say that a person goes to a bank tomorrow morning. The person says that his name is Guy Cormier and that he needs a mortgage to purchase a house. The mortgage would be at the other bank and not at Desjardins.Identity theft causes damage in other areas. One example is the real estate flips in Saint-Lambert, in the South Shore, where people took out fake mortgages under fake identities. There were a baker's dozen, and that was only in Quebec. After that, it will be Canada and Europe. Identity theft has an impact, and it isn't limited to the Desjardins Group financial system.The protection that you're offering is appreciated and necessary. However, if I may say so, the protection is limited to the client's financial situation within their institution.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupIdentity theftPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1600)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you for joining us, Mr. Cormier.We fully understand that this situation is very emotional and complicated for Desjardins. Mr. Cormier, you said that it was premature to hold a committee meeting. I want to point out to everyone again that the Conservatives requested this meeting, with the NDP's support, to see how the federal government could help Desjardins and the nearly three million affected members.The objective isn't to investigate the situation or to find out how the data was stolen. The police are in charge of that aspect. For my part, I hope that the individual will be punished to the full extent of the law. I hope that the law is strong enough to send him to prison for a long time, but that's another matter.We've met with officials from various departments, including the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency. These are large departments. However, it's difficult to know whether the Government of Canada can be useful in this situation.I want to know whether you've received effective support from the government. If not, what could the government do to help you?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal institutionsPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1605)[Translation]Since the incident, you've offered the affected members a free five-year Equifax membership. Is the new protection announced this morning a lifetime membership, or is it new internal protection?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1605)[Translation]I'm a Desjardins member, but also a Royal Bank client—Mr. Guy Cormier: Thank you.Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: The Royal Bank has a system that I didn't know about. I learned about it from an employee last weekend. The Royal Bank site has a link to the TransUnion site. When I click on the link, my credit report and credit rating appear. It's completely free.Will Desjardins provide a similar service?Computer crimeCredit ratingDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionTransUnion CanadaGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1605)[Translation]You've done an extraordinary job of putting all this in place. Congratulations. I now want to talk about Canadians who are afraid that their data, which has been sent somewhere in the world, will be used to make transactions or for any other purpose. You can't be responsible for everyone. You have a responsibility to your members, and 90% of Quebecers are Desjardins members. However, you can't know whether data sent abroad comes from this particular breach.In other words, if my stolen data is sent abroad, will you still cover me, even though the data could have been sent from another source?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1605)[Translation]I'll interrupt you, because I made things unnecessarily complicated. What I meant was that even though a data breach occurred on your side, another organization may be sending my information elsewhere. In this case, wouldn't the government have some level of responsibility? You seem to be taking care of everyone's issues. At some point, shouldn't we suggest that the Government of Canada help all Canadians?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1605)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Cormier, Mr. Brun and Mr. Berthiaume, thank you for being here. You're welcome here. I think that you've fully understood our objective, which is to share information to restore the confidence of people who are extremely worried. You said it well. Like you, we're hearing from these people. This is all the more beneficial to us, since we've just completed a study. We've opened the door for members of the next Parliament with respect to cybersecurity in the financial sector. As such, we're particularly interested in this matter.Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'd say that, as Quebec MPs, we're not here to conduct a witch hunt. Based on the number of activities that we're involved in, we can clearly see that Desjardins is a local partner in the community. We want to work together, and I think that your recommendation today reflects that. Thank you very much. I want to touch on a few points, in the hope that you can answer some questions. I understand the constraints that you're operating under. The first thing is very simple. It seems silly, but it concerns Equifax's French services. A few people have reported difficulties with obtaining services in French. Have you worked with Equifax to ensure that your members, the vast majority of whom are French-speaking, receive service in French?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1610)[Translation]It's not necessarily specific to what we want to review, and it doesn't fall within the mandate of the committee. However, you'll appreciate that I still wanted to get the facts straight. Thank you.I want to focus on regulations. We heard a bit about them from the government officials who spoke before you. Are the regulations becoming cumbersome when it comes to achieving your objectives and ensuring the security of your members' data? In your particular situation, you're subject to both Quebec and federal government regulations. Compared to traditional financial institutions and large banks, you're in a somewhat unique situation. You'll forgive me for perhaps not using the correct terminology, but I think that you understand what I mean. Can this different situation cause problems?Simply put, would it be in our interest to ensure a better alignment between the Quebec government and the federal government requirements, so that you don't need to turn left and right to comply with two different regulatory entities?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPrivacy and data protectionRegulationDenisBerthiaumeBernardBrun//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1610)[Translation]Thank you.It may be more difficult to answer my next question, as the police investigation is still ongoing.Given the growing cyber security expertise, especially among people who work in that field, do you think it would be appropriate to recommend ongoing background or behaviour checks for employees who have access to sensitive information and can use the information belonging to other users, other employees?I am not saying that you have failed in that area, but everyone is starting to recognize the existence of people whose expertise is growing. Their expertise is being used, but it can also have more harmful consequences. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionBernardBrunGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1615)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will share my time.Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here.I have been a member of Desjardins since around 1980. Like my colleague was saying, Desjardins is omnipresent. My riding is Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, and it includes Deux-Montagnes, Saint-Eustache, Boisbriand and Rosemère. There is a caisse Desjardins in Deux-Montagnes and one in Thérèse-De Blainville. Those are two major institutions in the region. There are two RCMs and two caisses Desjardins.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1615)[Translation]Yes.You said that internal fraud is the most difficult type of fraud to detect and protect against. Earlier today, officials from the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency talked to us.How do things work internally at Desjardins? How could have supervisors detected that malicious employee? It is clear that he managed to get into the system. Are there access levels and screenshots? Does the system issue alerts when it identifies something unusual? Are your employees allowed to have their cellphone with them when they work with data?I am sure you will re-evaluate the existing measures. You talked about a lone malicious employee, but what will you do to protect yourselves against other malicious employees? What are your rules? How does it work?Business managementComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1620)[Translation]Will you review your internal rules?Business managementComputer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1620)[Translation]Thank you very much.I am glad you talked about the four procedures you have implemented. My parents are seniors and have no Internet. They went to their caisse Desjardins in person to get someone to assist them, and it did not work very well.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1620)[Translation]People without Internet access cannot sign up for it.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1620)[Translation]Thank you.GuyCormierFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]I will continue somewhat along the lines of Mr. Motz's comments. Many of those who have not received a letter are worrying and wondering whether they are affected or not.Can we say to all those who have not received a letter that they are not affected?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]So if someone does not receive a letter, they are not affected. Is that right?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]That protection is a good thing, but in some of the towns in my riding, Laurentides—Labelle, a number of people don't have Internet access or a cellphone. They are fewer than when I first took office, but there are still some. A number of them have even lost their Desjardins branch. What can those people do?I have had an account with Equifax for several years. When something changes, I receive an email, but I must go on the website to try to figure out what it is, as it is not clear at all. So for those with an Internet connection, the Equifax-provided information is unclear, and those without a connection have nothing at all.You talked a bit about this, but could you elaborate further?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]So Equifax, and not Desjardins, will take care of the technical aspect.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupEquifax Canada Co.Privacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]Fine.In your statement, you talked about changing our digital identity system. What examples would you like us to follow?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupDigital identityPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1635)[Translation]Very well.I have one last question. What did the 2.9 million Desjardins clients who were affected have in common? Do we know why they were affected and not the others?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1635)[Translation]Thank you.DenisBerthiaumeJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]Mr. Cormier, I would just like to reiterate what my colleague said. The fundamental objective of today's meeting, for us Conservatives, is to determine what the government, its agencies and institutions could do to help you and, in turn, to help Desjardins members, which is the most important thing. They are Canadian and Quebec citizens.As you know, I have contacted the three directors of the Desjardins branches in my riding to express my support.Has Canada's Department of Employment and Social Development contacted you to obtain the list of the 2.9 million citizens? This is a very important question.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]When you have the answer, could you give it to the analysts or the clerk? It would be important for us to know that. If the request has been made, could you provide a list of these Canadians? We are trying to find out what the government can do, but first it should know who it is talking about. So would you be able to send this list to the Canadian government? Unfortunately, it would still involve sending data, but the recipient would be the government.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]Next, I would like to know if a member of the current cabinet has contacted you since June 20.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]I am talking about the federal cabinet. So it would be a minister.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]Fine.In your introduction, you mentioned very humbly and respectfully that you had some questions. Personally, I would have liked to know your answers as an expert in your field. I don't remember your first question very well, but it was still interesting. You were wondering if Canada had an adequate system for social insurance numbers, for example. I would like to know your perspective on this. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]I would like to have your answers on both points.GuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1635)[Translation]I have a supplementary question, which will probably be the last one. I am addressing Mr. Cormier, the citizen.You made a very important announcement this morning. You said that the protection applies to all members, whether or not they are affected by this unfortunate event. You said all they have to do is call you and you can take care of them. You will establish contacts, take action and take the necessary steps.Do you think that's exactly the kind of attitude that the government, the federal state, should have right now towards the 2.9 million Canadian citizens?Citizens are being asked to contact us, and I think it is the federal government that should contact citizens. Let's say that citizens are communicating with the federal government, shouldn't the federal government have the same approach as you and say that it takes care of everything?The representative of Employment and Social Development Canada said that, if citizens' social insurance numbers were changed, they would have to call all their former employers. That's not what you're doing. You, incredibly, say you're going to take care of everyone at the last minute.As a citizen, would you like the federal government to act in the same way towards the affected members?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I have a question that is somewhat similar to what Mr. Graham was saying about Internet and telephone access. Seniors have special needs.Are we also looking at that? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSenior citizensJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodDenisBerthiaume//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1640)[Translation]There is an interesting article in La Presse, in today's issue, if I'm not mistaken. It talks about how credit watch agencies, companies like Equifax, are regulated and that this regulation focuses more on consumer issues.It may be too much speculation for what you are comfortable talking about today, but given the somewhat symbiotic relationship they have with financial institutions and the breach Equifax has experienced, do you think it would be relevant in the digital age to review how these agencies are regulated?This has become more important than consumer protection; they now have a responsibility to protect data. We see that there are important consequences. Should we review this in the context of all these changes you alluded to?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionDenisBerthiaumeGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1640)[Translation]I have one minute left. In closing, I would like to say that we are pleased to have you here. We understand that this is a difficult situation. I appreciate the fact that you understand why we have a duty to do this.Citizens are calling us. It affects them, they are worried. Our objective is not only to reassure them in this case, but also to ensure that they and other citizens who are clients of other financial institutions do not experience the same thing. You are sharing your experience, which is very useful not only today, but also for the future Parliament. We still want to put in place a roadmap in this rapidly evolving area.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionGuyCormierGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1640)[Translation]Your presence is very much appreciated, thank you.GuyCormierJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Cormier, Mr. Brun and Mr. Berthiaume, I too will begin by congratulating you. I must admit that when I arrived here this morning, I had questions and concerns, which you answered. I think that your statement this morning is very beneficial to Desjardins. I too am affected by what happened at Desjardins, and I appreciate the measures you have taken. About two or three weeks ago, the Bank of Canada established the Financial Sector Resiliency Group to address IT threats. As far as I know, Desjardins Group has not been invited to join this group. Chartered banks, among others, and systemically important banks were invited. First, can you confirm that Desjardins Group has not been invited? Then, do you consider it would be appropriate for it to participate in such a working group?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupFinancial service industriesPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1645)[Translation]You have the support of the Bloc Québécois on this. I hope my colleagues across the way will follow up on this and propose that the Bank of Canada invite you. Presently, there are discussions on the establishment of a national identity validation system. Previously, the social insurance number was used in the relationship between the employer and employees and the government. Now we see that it is used in almost every way. It is no longer clear how to behave in this regard, but it is clear that the simple social insurance number is no longer sufficient to ensure a certain level of security for citizens.In your opinion, would an identity validation system, which would include a PIN, fingerprint or whatever, be useful in a situation like the one you have experienced?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupDigital identityPrivacy and data protectionBernardBrunGuyCormier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1650)[Translation]Thank you.Ms. Boisjoly, earlier you heard the people from Desjardins talk about the need to rethink the social insurance number system. Is research being done on the future of the social insurance number?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1655)[Translation]Among the data that was taken, we know that there was a lot of information, not just social insurance numbers. There were also addresses, phone numbers, and so on. You have spoken several times about additional information to authenticate the social insurance number. Is all this information included in the data that was taken?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1655)[Translation]There are Service Canada officers in every city. If people come to their offices to find out what they need to do about the current situation, what instructions will they be given?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1655)[Translation] The leak is recent, however.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1655)[Translation]Is there a way to indicate somewhere that the social insurance number is no longer valid and then remove the liability associated with it?If I change my social insurance number and I am still responsible for the old one, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense. Can you tell us more about this?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1700)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for waiting and staying here. Ms. Boisjoly, you are the assistant deputy minister at the Department of Employment and Social Development Canada. Did your minister instruct you to get the list? I asked the same question of Mr. Cormier. Have you received ministerial instructions to obtain the list of the 2.9 million Canadians affected by the massive data leak at Desjardins?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1700)[Translation]So there were no guidelines. In other words, you are reactive. I'm not talking about you, of course. You follow political orders, and we understand that. At the moment, everything is reactive and absolutely nothing is proactive.You said you received 1,500 requests or calls about the social insurance number. Our goal is to know how the government can help people proactively. Since you don't know which Canadians are affected, you necessarily have to wait for them to contact you. That is what is happening right now. You wait for the people affected to contact you, not the other way around. That's impossible, because you don't have the data. Mr. Cormier, from Desjardins, seemed to say that they would be ready to send this data. I know I'm asking you to give a political opinion, but you can't.I have to express something that royally disgusts the people in my riding. I went door-to-door a lot last week and the week before that. People have consistently told me that they doubt that the government can do anything. It saddened me very much. How is that possible? I would like to break the cynicism and listen to people. People contribute 50% of their income to the Canadian government. We Conservatives want the government to work for citizens, not the other way around. Mr. Cormier said that when someone calls Desjardins, they are proactive and take care of things for them.We learned something very important today. In fact, we already knew that because it had been mentioned here and there. I learned from an official like you that you can change your social insurance number. I know it's complex and that even if we change it, we still have to reach a myriad of institutions, our former employers, and so on. However, it is the government that requires that citizens have a social insurance number. It is a system that should perhaps even be called into question, and we are discussing it today, in a way.Wouldn't it be your duty to contact the 2.9 million people? The Liberal government should do this to be proactive. It knows these people. For example, at the Pizzeria D'Youville, where I worked in 2004 when I was 17, it was the boss who sent the GST to the federal government. All these things are well known. Your departments could easily link this information and change the social insurance number, perhaps not in a comprehensive way, but it should support the citizen in the very difficult task of reaching all former employers or government agencies. I really don't like this. I know it's not your fault. You have political directives from the Liberal government, but it is not proactive at the moment. I don't like it at all. What can you say about this?Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88404AlupaClarkeAlupa-ClarkeBeauport—LimoilouConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/ClarkeAlupa_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Alupa Clarke: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Ms. Boisjoly.EliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to come back to the question I asked, namely whether you want to hold information sessions in major centres in Quebec, among others. I know that people outside Quebec are also affected, but it is in Quebec that the leak had the greatest impact. The population must be informed.I forgot what it was, but I have already received a letter in the mail regarding a change in federal policy. I would like to believe that it is possible to send letters by mail to the people of Quebec informing them of the schedule of public consultations or information sessions that will take place in the next two months. You are giving us information today and I think people are listening, of course. Nevertheless, we should make sure to reach as many people as possible. Despite the pervasiveness of social media, I am not convinced that this response is adequate.Is this something you are open to? I believe that the Department of Finance and the Canada Revenue Agency also have a role to play.Computer crimeDesjardins GroupInformation disseminationPrivacy and data protectionJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1705)[Translation]Perfect. We thank you for that because these are indeed special circumstances, and when there are natural disasters, for example, the local government—whether it is the municipalities or the Government of Quebec—always answers.As my colleagues said, and not to insult anyone, the federal government is the furthest away. In this case, there are real impacts on people's lives.Either way, if we ourselves—I'm just talking about myself right now—don't necessarily know how to navigate the social insurance number system when we are federal legislators, I don't think it's because of our own ignorance. It's just a very complex system. That's why you're here today, and that would be knowledge worth sharing.Thank you for your openness. This completes my questions. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionEliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1705)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'll start with Ms. Boisjoly.If we consider that the social insurance number was created in 1964 to govern employer-employee and government-to-government relations, we see that it is used in every way now, but in any case, much more widely than before.Wouldn't it be necessary to review the security regulations concerning its use? For example, there could be a PIN that matches the health card, fingerprints or other data, for example.In your opinion, can anything be done with this? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1705)[Translation]Correct me if I'm wrong, but the social insurance number is valid, regardless of whether or not we have matching questions.I am asked for my social insurance number for a transaction, whatever it is, with a bank, or whatever. I don't have a PIN. I just have the number. Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1705)[Translation]It depends on the companies we request services from, but, I agree, you're right.Wouldn't a penalty be appropriate? We see that retailers or banks frequently ask for social insurance numbers, and this is not always necessary. Shouldn't there be a system of penalties for those who ask for a social insurance number when they don't need it? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1710)[Translation]Couldn't we include criminal provisions in the act for this, whether it be a fine or some other sanction? Computer crimeDesjardins GroupPrivacy and data protectionSocial insurance numbersEliseBoisjolyEliseBoisjoly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88605RhéalFortinRhéal-FortinRivière-du-NordBloc Québécois CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/FortinRhéal_BQ.jpgInterventionMr. Rhéal Fortin: (1710)[Translation]All right. Fine.I have one last question if you...EliseBoisjolyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen (St. John's East, Lib.): (1635)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I also wanted to pass along some thanks to the interpreters in the booth, the technical folks and the staff who sit behind us and prepare us for these meetings. This wouldn't be able to happen without you.Minister, this is a great week for Canada. I'm really excited about the prospect of Trans Mountain. You've been a leader in our party not only on the infrastructure file, but since you've taken over this very delicate but economically vital matter of twinning of the Trans Mountain pipeline. You've been a very steady hand at the wheel.I just want to get a sense from you of how important it is not only to you personally but also to Albertans to have this significant victory in finally getting an opportunity to triple the capacity of this pipeline.AlbertaOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English]Thank you very much, Minister.In your opening remarks, you chastised the Conservatives for wanting to do appeals and for taking the legislative route. I must admit that I was also nervous about the path that had been chosen. You and the Minister of Finance convinced me that it was the right way and, of course, I guess now I have to admit that I was wrong on this and you were right, so congratulations on that.I also have found that some of the opposition rhetoric on this project—including at today's meeting, when the member suggested that somehow we should have begun the process of obtaining permits and entering into construction contracts prior to the completion of the process—demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how this process is meant to work. How irresponsible would it have been to prejudge the outcome or to have rushed this court-required and constitutionally required process?Constitution challengesOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English] I'm sorry, Mr. Minister, but were all those decisions and mistakes that were highlighted in the Federal Court of Appeal decision made when the Conservatives where in power? Constitution challengesOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English]We've had a lot of difficulty until very recently on clearing exploratory drilling on the east coast, and of course we have the injunction on TMX. Bill C-69 seems to achieve the right balance and seems to push us beyond the mistakes that existed in CEAA 2012 to ensure these types of mistakes don't happen again. Are you confident that's the case?C-69, An Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English] We were very excited to see that completed in December to provide an off-ramp from exploratory drilling and massive environmental assessments on a well-by-well basis. That's a great initiative from your and Minister McKenna's departments.Another concern that's been expressed to me is that we want to make sure the Canadian building trades have access to as much of the work on the Trans Mountain expansion as possible. I know there are different thresholds and limits in other projects. How can we ensure that Canadian workers benefit as much as possible from this megaproject?Job creationOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1640)[English]As a final very short question, there's been some scuttlebutt at the table here about whether or not a constitutional right is implicated in this process. I'm perhaps not as close to this issue as you are, but do you feel that the section 35 rights of indigenous peoples are implicated by the expansion, and was that something that we were trying to make sure we got right with Bill C-69?Aboriginal rightsC-69, An Act to enact the Impact Assessment Act and the Canadian Energy Regulator Act, to amend the Navigation Protection Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsEnvironmental assessmentOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1645)[English]I agree.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (1700)[English]Thank you, Minister.Very quickly, Mr. Chair, I just want to add to the comments. This is the fifth standing committee that I have joined in this Parliament, and you have been a very easy-going chair, very easy to get along with. When things get tense, you just go zen. It's a really good skill to have. Don't lose it. Minister, when Kinder Morgan owned Trans Mountain, where did the profits go?Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—LakeshoreAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1700)[English]Where will they go now?Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1700)[English]That money will go to the green transition, as we've talked about.Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1700)[English]How many conditions are attached to this approval? Can you give us a sense?Canadian Energy RegulatorOil and gasTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1705)[English] What kind of pressure is not having this expansion in place putting on our rail system, and is it affecting, for example, our grain shipments?Oil and gasRail transportation and railwaysTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1705)[English]Thank you.We were talking about the green transition earlier. Norway, as an example, managed to put a trillion dollars into their heritage fund, and their debt-to-GDP ratio is negative 90%.Is investing our revenue and investing in the green transition good for our economy?Oil and gasRenewable energy and fuelTrans Mountain pipelineAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsAmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill Woods//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1705)[English]Thank you very much.AmarjeetSohiHon.Edmonton Mill WoodsJamesMaloneyEtobicoke—Lakeshore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault (Sherbrooke, NDP): (1105)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I first want to thank Mr. Giroux and his colleagues for their work.I know that you've been working on this issue for several years and that, even though you had other data sources, it wasn't very easy to enlist the co-operation of the Canada Revenue Agency to access the data that you used to prepare this report.My first question concerns electronic funds transfers. You addressed international electronic funds transfers and transactions between affiliates or related companies. However, from what I can see, for the European Union's black and grey list countries alone, electronic funds transfers total $628 billion.Can you give us an idea of the countries on these lists and the value of the $628 billion in electronic funds transfers between Canada and these countries and between these countries and Canada in relation to the size of the countries' GDP?Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersGross domestic productOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1110)[Translation]As Mr. Giroux said, the $628 billion in electronic funds transfers to these countries or from these countries to Canada are disproportionate to the real economic activity of these countries.The same is true for offshore financial centres, which are covered in the other part of your study on electronic funds transfers. There are sink and conduit financial centres. Perhaps it isn't necessary to go into detail. Three trillion dollars pass through these offshore financial centres. We rarely say “trillion dollars” in French, but the amount is more than a few billion dollars. Can you provide a typical example of an offshore financial centre? How much money goes through these financial centres and what does this mean in terms of the country's economic activity? Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersGross domestic productOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesGovindadevaBernierYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1115)[Translation]Exactly. This is the result of the globalization of our economy and the fact that, with the emergence of the Internet, transactions to these financial centres take milliseconds to complete. The funds then move on to other countries, which become hubs of financial flows. The funds only pass through these countries for tax or financial reasons, as you just said.The other finding—Corporate income taxOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesYvesGirouxWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1115)[Translation]The other part of this study concerns transactions between companies. These tables basically show that several countries considered tax havens are among the top 10 in terms of offshore transactions with Canadian companies that have affiliates or related companies that don't deal at arm's length. The United States is in first place. This won't surprise anyone, since the United States is our closest neighbour. Canada's trade with the United States is substantial and often valid and proper. Luxembourg, a European country, is in second place. What is Luxembourg's economy or GDP? How can we justify the fact that this country ranks second in terms of the number of transactions conducted by Canadian companies abroad? Is it because Luxembourg's economy is growing? Is it because many oil wells are drilled in the country and there's an extraordinary amount of economic activity?Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersLuxembourgOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesWayneEasterHon.MalpequeYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1115)[Translation]The first on the list of the top 10 countries is Luxembourg, whose population is the size of the city of Gatineau, but whose reportable transactions amount to $236.7 billion. There's also Switzerland, whose reportable transactions amount to $198.4 billion, and Ireland, which some people also consider a tax haven and whose reportable transactions amount to $172.4 billion. In Barbados, the reportable transactions amount to $48.2 billion, and in Bermuda they amount to $29.7 billion. The offshore transactions of these five countries on the top 10 list amount to about $685 billion. For the most part, the economies of these countries don't necessarily justify such a large flow of transactions.Can you give us an idea of the situation in these five countries and the influence of double taxation agreements?I don't know whether you focused on this issue in your study. I want to know whether the size of the transactions between Canada and these countries can be linked to the fact that we have double taxation agreements. These agreements may encourage the offshoring of profits, which can then be repatriated to Canada at a lower tax rate.Corporate income taxDouble taxationElectronic funds transfersOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesMarkMahabirYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1120)[Translation]Table 3-5 shows that Luxembourg, of all the countries in the world, has the highest revenues from non-residents. These revenues amount to $47.6 billion.Can you tell us what “revenues from non-residents” means? Are these payments made by affiliates of a Canadian company? What transactions are normally involved? Are they intellectual property payments, interest or dividends, for example?Corporate income taxElectronic funds transfersLuxembourgOffice of the Parliamentary Budget OfficerUnpaid taxesMarkMahabirGovindadevaBernier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub (Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.): (1555)[Translation]Yes, I would like to ask a question if we have a bit of time left.I will continue in the same vein as Mr. Davies, who asked you why you do not investigate until you receive complaints or names are submitted to you.In that specific case, what do you think organizations defending those who have been wronged should do? There are about 100 such organizations. According to those people, a crime has taken place. What do you suggest they do so that you can do your job?Civil and human rightsCrime reportingReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterBrendaLucki//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault (Sherbrooke, NDP): (1125)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'll ask another question, which may increase the number of witnesses at the table.I must first say that I'm very disappointed that the Minister of Finance isn't here today and that he doesn't deign to come to the committee to defend his department's main estimates. The Minister of National Revenue also wasn't here last week. I want to ask about a widely discussed topic in British Columbia, namely, money laundering in casinos and in the real estate market. The British Columbia government has launched a public inquiry, which shows the significance of the issue in that province. Many people, including the government, are concerned about the issue.In the main estimates, the Department of Finance is requesting $819,555 under vote 20 to strengthen the anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist financing regime. I want to know more about that amount and whether the Department of Finance's only solution is to spend $819,555.Department of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Money launderingProceeds of crimeSupporters of terrorismWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1125)[Translation]As part of the development of a new policy, some reporting entities could be added to the system to fill in the gaps.Department of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Money launderingProceeds of crimeLynnHemmingsLynnHemmings//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1130)[Translation]One identified gap concerns the oversight, mandate and resources given to the RCMP, particularly in British Columbia. I know that you're representing the Department of Finance, but I think that this matter is part of the discussion. That's why I want to point out that hardly anyone was conducting audits or investigations that would lead to charges in this area.Has this issue also been addressed by the Department of Finance and, ultimately, by the RCMP?Department of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Money launderingProceeds of crimeRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceLynnHemmingsLynnHemmings//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1130)[Translation]Was the $10 million included in the 2019-20 main estimates, or will it be requested in a subsequent budget?Department of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Money launderingProceeds of crimeRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceLynnHemmingsLynnHemmings//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1130)[Translation]FINTRAC plays an important role in this issue. We're asking for $3.6 million for a new FINTRAC initiative. Can you elaborate on this initiative and on the $3.6 million requested for FINTRAC in the main estimates?Department of FinanceFinancial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of CanadaMain estimates 2019-2020Money launderingProceeds of crimeLynnHemmingsLynnHemmings//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1130)[Translation]Okay, thank you.I would like an update on another topic.Last year, the budget implementation bill provided some flexibility for fintechs. The bill provided some regulatory powers to clarify how fintechs could operate in the sector, and it was expected that regulations would follow. Is the work still ongoing? When will these regulations be published in Part I of the Canada Gazette?Department of FinanceFinancial service industriesInformation technologyMain estimates 2019-2020ChristopherVeilleuxLeahAnderson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1145)[English]Thank you.First I want to ask a question for clarification. My colleague spoke about the statutory expenditures in the main estimates. You were kind enough to provide a breakdown of those. I did not hear the exact breakdown for transfer payments regarding health care. Could you perhaps let us know, if you have that information, how much the federal government is providing to each of the provinces and territories for health care?Canada Health TransferDepartment of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020WayneEasterHon.MalpequeDarleneBess//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1145)[English]That's fine.DarleneBessWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1145)[English]Thank you very much.Budget 2019 also proposed a series of new measures to strengthen anti-money-laundering and anti-terrorist financing. I note there is a significant amount of funding that relates to these new measures. I was wondering if somebody could explain what programs might be initiated with this additional funding.Department of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Money launderingProceeds of crimeSupporters of terrorismSuzyMcDonaldLynnHemmings//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1150)[English] Thank you.Again, to pick up on an earlier conversation with respect to the open banking review, I'm pleased to hear that the consultations went so well. When can we expect action on this front? Is there anything in the pipeline that you can talk to us about?What we've heard is that we're moving in the right direction, that we have great examples with Australia and the United Kingdom. When do you expect Canada to jump in?Banks and bankingDepartment of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020LynnHemmingsLeahAnderson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1150)[English]Okay. Thank you.Thank you, Mr. Chair.LeahAndersonWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1200)[Translation] I had the same question, but I didn't hear which group will receive the $50,000 over three years.Canada Pension PlanDepartment of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Pensions and pensionersWayneEasterHon.MalpequeLynnHemmings//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1200)[Translation]Is it an organization—Canada Pension PlanDepartment of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Pensions and pensionersLynnHemmingsLynnHemmings//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1200)[Translation]So it's a Canadian organization.Canada Pension PlanDepartment of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Pensions and pensionersLynnHemmingsLynnHemmings//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1200)[Translation]Okay, thank you.My other questions concern transfers to the provinces, particularly health transfers.You'll recall that the Liberals heavily criticized the Conservatives for changing the percentage increase in health transfers, year after year. Yet, once in power, the Liberals kept the same scale for health transfer increases. A $40.3-billion transfer is being proposed for 2019-20, compared to $38.5 billion in 2018-19 and $37.1 billion in 2017-18. Can you give us an idea of the annual percentage increase? Does it reflect the agreement made with the provinces?Canada Health TransferDepartment of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020LynnHemmingsSuzyMcDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1200)[Translation]Does this honour the agreement made with the provinces a few years ago?Canada Health TransferDepartment of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020SuzyMcDonaldSuzyMcDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1205)[Translation]Okay, thank you.I have a question about a negative amount.[English]It's listed as “Youth Allowances Recovery”.[Translation]This negative amount still totals $932 million. The budget item was established under the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Revision Act, 1964.Could someone explain this negative amount to me?Department of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020RecoveryYoung peopleSuzyMcDonaldSuzyMcDonald//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1205)[Translation]That's interesting.Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?SuzyMcDonaldWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1205)[Translation]I have a question about stock options.Mr. Marsland, we've seen the ways and means motion. As a result of this motion, can we expect a bill to be tabled by the end of the week?Department of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020Stock optionsWayneEasterHon.MalpequeAndrewMarsland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1205)[Translation]If the minister had been here, perhaps we could have obtained an answer to that question.Department of FinanceMain estimates 2019-2020AndrewMarslandWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1225)[English]On a point of information, Mr. Chair, we adopted a motion last week to invite the Minister of National Revenue. I'm wondering if you have an update for us on a date.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1225)[English]We sent her an invitation last week— WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1225)[English]—and no answer came forward.A voice: Did you tweet her?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)): (0845)[English] Good morning, folks, and welcome to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights as we move to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, starring Mr. James Bezan who has come to our meeting. Welcome, James. Before we begin, we just have one budget to adopt for the witnesses for the committee who came for Bill C-266. It's in the amount of $2,500. I was just wondering if we could have a motion to adopt the budget for the review of C-266. An hon. member: So moved. The Chair: Does everybody approve? Some hon. members: Agreed. C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility)Committee businessConditional releaseLife sentencesPrivate Members' BillsAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0845)[English]Now we will move to clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. We had no amendments that were proposed by anyone, but we'll go through each clause and see if anyone wants to offer any. (Clauses 2 to 4 inclusive agreed to on division)The Chair: Now we move to the short title of the bill. All those in favour of the short title?Some hon. members: Agreed.An. hon. member: On division.The Chair: Are there any amendments to the title of the bill? Did you rethink the title by any chance? Would you like to call it something else?C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility)Clause-by-clause studyConditional releaseDecisions in committeeLife sentencesPrivate Members' BillsRecorded divisionsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—Eastman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]All those in favour of the title of the bill?Some hon. members: Agreed.An hon. member: On division.The Chair: Shall the bill carry?Some hon. members: Agreed.An hon. member: On division.The Chair: Shall I report the bill to the House?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: That takes us through the bill. The bill is now adopted by committee without amendment, and I will report it back to the House today after question period.C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility)Clause-by-clause studyConditional releaseDecisions in committeeLife sentencesPrivate Members' BillsRecorded divisionsJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—EastmanMarc-OlivierGirard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]Is it at 10 a.m.?Marc-OlivierGirardMarc-OlivierGirard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]Is it the first thing at 10 a.m.? Marc-OlivierGirardMarc-OlivierGirard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]All right. I will report it back at 10 a.m. Is there anything else today that anybody wanted to raise? If not, as you folks know, we'll probably have another meeting when the Supreme Court nomination from Quebec happens, and we'll meet with Ms. Campbell and the minister. As soon as I have a date for that, I will let everybody know with as much notice as I can give. It's been a pleasure working with everybody. I hope you all have a great day.This meeting is adjourned.Marc-OlivierGirard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98075RichardHébertRichard-HébertLac-Saint-JeanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/HébertRichard_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Hébert: (0940)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses for coming and sharing some very interesting perspectives on this issue.Under our government, over the past three years, one million new jobs have been created and the unemployment rate has fallen to its lowest level in 40 years. When Mr. Trump came to power, he said that NAFTA was bad and that it had to be completely eliminated. He was even talking, with great vigour, about destroying supply management. However, after very intense negotiations, we succeeded in maintaining supply management. We are one of the only countries in the world that still benefits from this protection for our producers. Not everything is perfect, but at least we have been able to keep a good part of this protection.I would like to ask a question of Mr. Kingston, who, with his colleague Mr. Wilson, gave a very eloquent speech this morning.This agreement is about to be signed. We all hope it will be. However, if it were not signed, what impact would this have on jobs, the unemployment rate and wealth creation?Mr. Kingston, you have the floor.C-100, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsLabour marketParliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberTrade agreementsMarkEykingHon.Sydney—VictoriaBrianKingston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98075RichardHébertRichard-HébertLac-Saint-JeanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/HébertRichard_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Hébert: (0945)[Translation]Thank you.My next question is for Mr. Wilson.In recent years, we have signed 14 agreements with 51 countries. This opens up a market of 1.5 billion new customers. Our trade is doing well: daily trade south of the border is close to $2 billion. As for the impact of other agreements, notably the CETA agreement, ocean freight rates have increased by 9% in Montreal over the past year.In your opinion, will the other agreements that are in the process of being signed or about to be signed have as favourable an effect as CETA, and the one you want to see signed as soon as possible, as do we?Mr. Wilson, you have the floor.C-100, An Act to implement the Agreement between Canada, the United States of America and the United Mexican StatesCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementGovernment billsParliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberTrade agreementsBrianKingstonMathewWilson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98075RichardHébertRichard-HébertLac-Saint-JeanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/HébertRichard_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Hébert: (0945)[Translation]Thank you.Parliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberMathewWilsonMarkEykingHon.Sydney—Victoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98075RichardHébertRichard-HébertLac-Saint-JeanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/HébertRichard_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Richard Hébert: (0945)[English]Yes, thank you.Parliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberMarkEykingHon.Sydney—VictoriaMarkEykingHon.Sydney—Victoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Nick Whalen (St. John's East, Lib.)): (1540)[English] Welcome, everyone.I call to order the 167th meeting of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. This is very likely our last meeting before Parliament rises, which is expected to happen this week.I'd like to welcome a couple of new members to our committee today, temporary members Don Rusnak and Linda Lapointe. Don, I'd like to thank you for your four years in Parliament. I understand you're not seeking re-election, but thank you for your service.We'll begin with an opening statement by the departmental officials here to brief us today on the rural and northern immigration pilot, followed by normal rounds of questioning.I understand there may be interruptions over the course of the next half-hour. We might be seeking unanimous consent to continue to pose questions to the witnesses until the time to vote, so that all parties will have an opportunity to participate in the debate.Without further ado, I'd like to welcome Natasha Kim, Lara Dyer and Corinne Prince.Ms. Kim, please proceed.Immigration and immigrantsNorthern CanadaRural and Northern Immigration PilotRural communitiesNatashaKim//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Kim.Mr. Tabbara.NatashaKimMarwanTabbaraKitchener South—Hespeler//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]You have about 30 seconds, Mr. Tabbara. Are you sharing your time with Ms. Zahid?NatashaKimMarwanTabbaraKitchener South—Hespeler//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English] Mr. Maguire.MarwanTabbaraKitchener South—HespelerLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]I think we'll probably have an opportunity to get through 20 minutes of questions, and maybe another 10 minutes after that.LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]I'm not sure if it's possible.Is the templates for the MOUs prepared for our review?Immigration and immigrantsNorthern CanadaRural and Northern Immigration PilotRural communitiesLarryMaguireBrandon—SourisNatashaKim//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Very briefly, please.LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisNatashaKim//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Maguire.Ms. Kwan.NatashaKimJennyKwanVancouver East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]That's an interesting question, and perhaps we may get to it in further rounds of questioning.Mr. Sarai.JennyKwanVancouver EastRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]You have only a few seconds left, Mr. Sarai. CorinnePrinceRandeepSaraiSurrey Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]That's perfect. Thank you very much.Voices: Oh, oh!The Chair: Mr. Maguire.NatashaKimLarryMaguireBrandon—Souris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English] We only have about 15 seconds to go, so if Ms. Prince could provide us with a slight elaboration, we can then move to Madame Lapointe.LarryMaguireBrandon—SourisCorinnePrince//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]Thank you, Ms. Prince.The last opportunity goes to Madam Lapointe.CorinnePrinceLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.): (1630)[Translation] How much time do I have?NickWhalenSt. John's EastNickWhalenSt. John's East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[Translation]You can ask questions until the bell rings, probably in a few minutes.LindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLindaLapointeRivière-des-Mille-Îles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1630)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I want to thank the witnesses, who gave very interesting presentations. I'm not a regular member of this committee. I'm replacing someone. However, for two and a half years, I sat on the Standing Committee on Official Languages, where one issue was francophone immigration outside Quebec.I thought that the francophone immigration target was 4.5%, but my colleague told me that it was 4.4%. You said that you selected 11 of the 50 communities that applied based on the francophonie, diversity and geography.What's your francophone immigration target for these 11 communities?FrancophonesImmigration and immigrantsNorthern CanadaRural and Northern Immigration PilotRural communitiesNickWhalenSt. John's EastCorinnePrince//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1635)[Translation]We were told that the overall target was 4.4% francophone immigration outside Quebec. Have you selected cities, such as Sudbury, Timmins or North Bay, based on their French-speaking population? You said that 53% of the population of Timmins is francophone. With this pilot project, do you expect to see at least 53% francophone immigration, to prevent the erosion of francophone communities outside Quebec?FrancophonesImmigration and immigrantsNorthern CanadaRural and Northern Immigration PilotRural communitiesLaraDyerLaraDyer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you, everyone.I'd like to thank the officials for coming today and providing us with this briefing on the announced 11 new rural communities that will participate in the rural northern immigration pilot.For committee members, this will now adjourn our 167th meeting and our last regularly scheduled meeting of the 42nd Parliament. I invite members to stay to meet a German delegation that is here to discuss the integration of immigrants and refugees into the labour market, and how to best attract a skilled labour force to Canada, including persons with disabilities in this challenge. If you could let the clerk know if you intend to stay, we can arrange the room accordingly.The meeting is adjourned.LaraDyer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos (Pontiac, Lib.): (1610)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you to our distinguished witnesses. It's very appreciated that you're here. I'm also very appreciative of the fact that you share the same passion that we all do here at the table on conservation matters.I want to go to each of you for short responses, please. What was your reaction to our government's decision in budget 2018 to invest $1.3 billion over five years in conservation?Mr. Chan, perhaps we could start with you.EcosystemsHabitat conservationUnited NationsJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityKaiChan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1615)[English]Thank you.Professor Kerr.KaiChanJeremyKerr//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1615)[English] Mr. Kraus, over to you.JeremyKerrDanKraus//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1615)[English]Thank you.With my last remaining minute, I'll ask Professor Kerr, who is a former colleague at U of O—I look back on those times fondly—a question.If there were an extra half-billion dollars unlocked in the dream world that I inhabit, where would you suggest that extra and new monies ought to be directed?EcosystemsHabitat conservationUnited NationsDanKrausJeremyKerr//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1620)[English]Thank you.JeremyKerrJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley City//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC): (1725)[Translation]Thank you.Thank you all for being here today.I'll try to be brief. The discussion has focused on decisions that are made at very high echelons. We are talking about the planet, the country and the province.I was mayor of Thetford Mines for seven years, and we had situations where people asked us to take action to protect small species such as frogs. Residents wondered why projects were being halted to protect such species.In all of this, we must never forget the people who will have to suffer the consequences of the decisions that are made, whether in terms of their region's development or their lifestyle. Unfortunately, that wasn't really mentioned in the documentation I saw. That's a general comment but one that's important. When these decisions are made, the impacts on indigenous and other communities—such as mine, Thetford Mines—need to be taken into account. We had asbestos mining for years, and it left the region devastated. It wasn't fit as a habitat because it was dead. What's going to happen to those people? The decisions that were made had repercussions on people, and that can't be forgotten.Mr. Chair, I would've really liked to have the French version of the summary for policy-makers. That would've been very helpful given all the information it contains, information I would've liked to read and share with you. It's something we should follow closely.I don't have enough time to ask questions, but I just want to stress how important it is not to overlook local decision-makers and the people affected by these decisions. Otherwise, the approach won't work, and people will voice their opposition.Mr. Shields, the floor is yours.EcosystemsHabitat conservationUnited NationsJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityMartinShieldsBow River//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)): (1540)[English]I call the meeting to order. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the adequacy of enforcement and penalties for infractions of the Fisheries Act. For the first hour, by video conference, we have Bernie Berry from the Coldwater Lobster Association. From the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association, we have Robert Jenkins, President, and Ian MacPherson, Executive Director. As an individual, we have Alexandra Morton, Independent Biologist with the Pacific Coast Wild Salmon Society. We'll start with Bernie Berry from the Coldwater Lobster Association. For your opening statement, you have seven minutes. Fisheries ActFisheries and fishersLaw enforcementPenaltiesBernieBerry//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you, Mr. Berry.We'll now go to the Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association for seven minutes. Gentlemen, I don't know if you're sharing your time.BernieBerryIanMacPherson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1555)[English]Thank you, Mr. MacPherson.We'll now go to Alexandra Morton for seven minutes or less, please.IanMacPhersonAlexandraMorton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you, Ms. Morton, for that.We'll now go into our question round.I know the time, but in looking at it, we only have one witness in the second hour. Probably what we'll do is a full round of seven minutes in this part of the session, and at the end of the second hour, we'll take a few minutes just to catch up on committee business.On the government side, we have Mr. Fraser. You have seven minutes or less, please.AlexandraMortonColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1610)[English]Thank you, Mr. Fraser.We'll now go to the Conservative side and to Mr. Arnold, for seven minutes or less.ColinFraserWest NovaMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Arnold. Mr. Johns, you have seven minutes or less, please.MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapGordJohnsCourtenay—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you, Mr. Johns. Your time is well past. We'll now go back to the government side.Mr. Morrissey, go ahead for seven minutes or less, please.AlexandraMortonRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English] If I may respond, they were invited, but they're at a conference. They were unavailable today.RobertMorrisseyEgmontRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]It's not that they refused to come. They are actually at a conference and couldn't attend.RobertMorrisseyEgmontRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you for that.Thank you, Mr. Morrissey. Thank you to our witnesses, both by teleconference and by video conference, for your participation here this afternoon. We greatly appreciate it.Committee members, I know the bells are ringing. I believe it's a 30-minute bell. We probably could disconnect or suspend for a minute and disconnect the video conference that we've got hooked up now and get ready for Mr. McIsaac. We could get his testimony and then look the time we have left in relation to the vote. Is that agreed?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: All right. We'll suspend for a moment and allow the technicians to connect the new witness.(1635)(1640)(1640)The Chair: Apparently we're having some technical difficulties in hooking up Mr. McIsaac from B.C.I know this is our last meeting until probably well into the fall, or it may be the winter before any Fisheries and Oceans committee meets again. I wanted to take the opportunity to thank all our staff for being so supportive, including our translators. I also want to thank the committee members for being so patient. I think as a committee we operated pretty well, and for the most part in a non-partisan way, on the studies we have done. I know at times there might have been a scattered little jab here and there, but it wouldn't be any fun if that didn't take place. I want to thank even those who sub in the odd time, such as Vance, and of course our friend Robert Sopuck, who was a regular member of the committee prior to this time. It's always good to see you back. Again, thank you to everyone for making this an enjoyable committee to work on and to chair and to have any involvement with whatsoever. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!IanMacPhersonRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Yes. I wouldn't say no to you.RobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]I know I did say some of them were at a conference. Others were also meeting with their U.S. counterparts, and unfortunately this was left to the last minute, I think. If we had more time, I think we would have postponed the meeting if the officials weren't available, but we couldn't do that today because we agreed we wouldn't have a meeting on Wednesday. It is unfortunate, because it's always good to have the officials here and put them in the line of fire, for the lack of a better word, and we've done well with them in the past.Fisheries ActFisheries and fishersLaw enforcementPenaltiesRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English] Mr. McIsaac, we finally have you online. We have the bells ringing for a vote, but we'd certainly like to have the opportunity to hear your opening statement. We'll see how much time we have left for some questioning after that.When you're ready, Mr. McIsaac, you go right ahead for seven minutes or less. RobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaJimMcIsaac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Thank you for that, Mr. McIsaac.We can probably do a round of three minutes. That will give us three minutes to get to the House, if everybody is in agreement and can get up all the stairs quickly enough.We'll go to Mr. Hardie for three minutes or less, and I'll be very strict on the time. I might even cut you a little bit short.JimMcIsaacKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Mr. Sopuck, you have a question or two.KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsRobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—Neepawa//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.I'm going to give Mr. Johns the chance for a question, or maybe two.RobertSopuckDauphin—Swan River—NeepawaGordJohnsCourtenay—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English] Thank you, Mr. McIsaac. I'm sorry we have to rush off. It's just getting interesting, but we have a vote in four minutes, so we have to adjourn here. I want to thank everyone and wish everyone a great summer after we rise, hopefully this week. The meeting is adjourned.JimMcIsaac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC): (1555)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Minister Goodale, we're talking about organizations that are the subject of complaints. There's currently a complaint regarding the funding provided by Canada Summer Jobs to the Islamic Society of North America. It has been acknowledged and documented that the organization provided funding for terrorism purposes.Has your department or any agency that operates under your department been informed of this issue or involved in the case?Application processC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsCanada Summer JobsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyStudent summer employmentJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1555)[English]Yes.RalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1555)[Translation]Thank you.RalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1555)[Translation]I was putting into practice the basis of the bill, which is the fact that Canadians are filing complaints. It's the same principle.Let's go back to the commission, Minister Goodale. Is the commission currently experiencing any delays in the handling of complaints? Does it already have an excessive workload? Will adding more powers, duties and functions with regard to the Canada Border Services Agency create even more issues, or is everything fine?BacklogsC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1600)[English]Actually, sir, do you know if there are some delays in the treatment for the RCMP—BacklogsC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1600)[Translation]Okay.If a person is removed by the Canada Border Services Agency for any reason, could they file a complaint regarding their forced removal in order to delay their removal?BordersC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsCanada Border Services AgencyComplaintsDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersGovernment billsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1600)[Translation]Have we looked at whether people could use the complaint process to avoid being removed while the commission conducts an investigation?BordersC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsCanada Border Services AgencyComplaintsDeportation, extradition and removal of foreignersGovernment billsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1600)[Translation]Who worked on Bill C-98? Was it just Public Safety Canada? Did the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency also participate?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsInterdepartmental relationsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1600)[Translation]Okay.Is there a reason why the union wasn't consulted?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsLabour unionsPublic consultationSafetyEvanTraversEvanTravers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1600)[Translation]Yet the union seems to be saying that it wasn't consulted at all on this issue.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsLabour unionsPublic consultationSafetyEvanTraversRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé (Beloeil—Chambly, NDP): (1600)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English]Minister, thank you for being here.I want to go back to the question Ms. Dabrusin was asking in terms of the time that this took. The fact is, there was a Senate report prior to the last election in 2015, legislation by Senator Segal in the previous Parliament and a recommendation from this committee in 2017. Also, for anyone who wants to take a minute to google it, you can find articles from at least the last three years with you promising this legislation—it's coming, it's coming. Also, most of the bills you enumerated in responding to my colleague, if not all, were tabled in 2016 or 2017.I'm wondering about this mechanism. You called it simple and straightforward, faster and cost-effective and said it builds on existing infrastructure. I'm having a hard time with this, especially in knowing that the legislation is only going to come into effect in 2020, if I'm understanding correctly, with regard to the ability of Canadians to make complaints.I'm still not quite understanding why, with all those pieces on the table and at the very least two or three years in the lead-up.... To me, it doesn't seem to wash that you sort of dropped your arms and said, “Oh well, the senator's proposal won't work in Bill C-59.” That seemed to be what you were implying in response to the question.I want to ask again why it took so long when there continue to be incidents with work relations for those who work at CBSA—allegations of harassment and things of that nature—and obviously, of course, the issues that some Canadians face in the way they are treated at the border.C-59, An Act respecting national security mattersC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1605)[English]I think maybe three of those bills were tabled after 2017 or early 2018. I mean, for the C-20s and the single digits, we're talking days after your government was sworn in. I think there needs to be some accountability, because you've been on the record strongly saying that this needed to be done, and so I don't want to leave it being said that.... For example, with Bill C-59, why not make the change then?I just want to understand, because my concern, Minister, is that I want to make sure there's no, for example, resistance internally to this issue. I can't understand, if this is a simple and straightforward mechanism in Bill C-98, why it took years to come to the conclusion that this was the way to go.C-59, An Act respecting national security mattersC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1605)[Translation]I want to follow up on the questions asked by my colleague, Mr. Paul-Hus. I'm troubled by the fact that the union wasn't consulted in this case. One role of this mechanism is to protect workers in the event of allegations. The media sometimes reports on harassment allegations and things of that nature.Mr. Travers, you can probably answer my question. You explained that the agency carried out the consultation. However, the workers are the ones who may be directly affected by the results of the complaints. Sometimes, they may be the ones who file complaints. Given the nature of the bill, why didn't you take the time to consult the union, which represents the workers?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsLabour unionsPublic consultationSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1610)[English]Well, you'll forgive me, Minister. We support the bill and will be happy to see it get adopted, but that's just the issue. We don't have the time, because it took so long that now we have to do this quickly. I'm okay to do that, but I think we do have to qualify those comments.Did you receive any kind of report from CBSA about the specifics of what the union had to say, or was it kind of like—not to be simplistic about it—just saying that you spoke to them and it's fine, and then moving on?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsLabour unionsPublic consultationSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1610)[Translation]Thank you.I have one last question for you.I gather that the mechanism will be implemented in 2020. People who wish to file a complaint can do so from that point on. Are any further clarifications needed or can we expect that, if the bill is passed, people will be able to file complaints under the proposed mechanism starting next year?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1610)[English]But, Minister—I have just 20 seconds left—RalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1610)[English]—if we get the bill through Parliament, will it be done, if it's adopted?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard (Montarville, Lib.): (1610)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Minister Goodale, as you know, I started my career as a customs officer. The threshold for tolerance or interpretation when it comes to people entering Canada varies depending on whether the people are visitors or residents returning to Canada.My colleague Mr. Dubé talked about protecting employees. Of course, you need an external perspective to determine the merits of a complaint filed by someone who believes that their rights have been violated. It seems that the bill contains measures that enable the commission to accept or reject a complaint based on its content.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsDecision-making processGovernment billsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1610)[English]People coming back into Canada, residents and visitors, don't have the same threshold for how they'd like to be treated, considering the nature of their complaints. The committee can analyze the grounds of those complaints and whether they make sense or not. With regard to protecting the officers, as Mr. Dubé said, this bill also looks at something to protect officers and employees from frivolous complaints.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsDecision-making processGovernment billsSafetyEvanTraversRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1610)[English]Chances are that the committee will come to a conclusion that might not be accepted by the agency itself. Who has the final decision on the conclusion provided by the committee should it go against the interpretation of the agency? C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsDecision-making processGovernment billsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1615)[English]Are you saying that if an individual is not satisfied with the end result, after the commission has reviewed the issue he doesn't have any more legal recourse to sue anyone?AccountabilityC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyEvanTraversRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1615)[English]Thank you.RalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (1625)[English]Thank you.In the event of a conflict of authority between the PCRC and the NSIRA, or even NSICOP, who prevails?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsInterdepartmental relationsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1625)[English]When the RCMP is operating in a contract position, for example, as provincial police, or here on the Hill in PPS, is the PCRC's power and oversight the same as an RCMP native operation?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1625)[English]Yes.RalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1625)[English]What about for the PPS side? The RCMP is contracted to provide a service, so—C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsRoyal Canadian Mounted PoliceSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1625)[English]That's fair.In overseas operations, when the RCMP is doing training missions, for example, or the CBSA is doing pre-clearing, which is another one of the bills that you brought forward, is the PCRC empowered to investigate overseas in the same way as they are domestically? C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsInternational relationsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1625)[English]They would be able to go down to the U.S., for example, and find out what happened if there were a major complaint.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsInternational relationsSafetyRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1625)[English]I have one final question. Does the PCRC have any power to make a binding recommendation in any circumstance?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsDecision-making processGovernment billsSafetyEvanTraversRalphGoodaleHon.Regina—Wascana//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1625)[English]Thank you.RalphGoodaleHon.Regina—WascanaJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1640)[English]I have just a couple of short ones for Sergeant Sauvé if I may. You're talking about the trouble you're having essentially unionizing the RCMP membership, if I understand correctly.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsLabour unionsSafetyRubySahotaBrampton NorthBrianSauvé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1645)[English]At least in January—BrianSauvéJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1645)[English]I'm about to bring it in, yes.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1645)[English]I'll bring it back in. I have one more question before I get to that, but I will tie in with that.JohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1645)[English]The reason I go down this road is that, as you're aware, there are three unionized services on Parliament Hill that report to the RCMP. I'm wondering if you've talked to SSEA and PSAC about their challenges. They've had many of them. I'm also wondering if Bill C-98 will give you any additional tools in dealing with this and if that's why you've come today.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsLabour unionsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodBrianSauvé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1645)[English]Does the committee that we're talking about today give you more tools for the union to deal with, or is it a non-issue for you? When the certification has been received, will the union use this committee to deal with the RCMP? Is it a tool that would be in your arsenal as well?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsLabour unionsSafetyBrianSauvéJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1645)[English]In negotiating with the RCMP, does the creation of the committee as we're now seeing it improve your ability to negotiate? Does it give you extra tools, or is it a non-issue for you and it's strictly for the public, in your view?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsLabour unionsSafetyBrianSauvéBrianSauvé//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1720)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Sauvé, I hope that you'll forgive me, but I have few questions that I think you can answer.First, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate you for everything that you're doing. I know that things haven't been easy in recent years, but I think that it's a step in the right direction. It was something that needed to be done a long time ago. The people who have been following the debate know that this is about establishing fair representation for the men and women in uniform in the RCMP. Keep up the good work.My questions pertain to some aspects of the commission's current operations and how the bill can change or affect this.The proposed subclause 18(2) on page 8 of the bill states as follows:(2) In order to conduct a review on its own initiative, the Commission(a) must be satisfied that sufficient resources exist ...(b) must have taken reasonable steps to verify that no other review or inquiry has been undertaken ...I'll address the reasonable steps described in paragraph (b). Let's start with paragraph (a), which concerns resources.Take the case of an incident reported by the media. As a result, the complaint becomes a matter of public interest. If you don't have an adequate budget, you must make the handling of complaints a priority, even if the situation is high profile. Unless the president or the minister requests an investigation, you'll be limited by your budget capacity. That's basically what it means.Is that correct?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodMichelaineLahaie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1720)[Translation]That's fine.In terms of paragraph (b), not only in the context of the proposed subclause 18(2), but in general, Mr. Graham spoke earlier about the risk of stepping on the other agency's toes. That's interesting. As part of our study of Bill C-59, we met with representatives of your commission. Forgive me, I don't remember whether the information came from you or other representatives, but we were told that there was no issue with regard to the RCMP, since the functions weren't national security functions. However, during the presentations and debate on Bill C-59, some people pointed out that, in the case of the Canada Border Services Agency, the issue still concerned national security, given that we're talking about border integrity.Are you concerned that, in terms of the agency, it may be more difficult to determine what falls under the different oversight mechanisms for national security issues? For example, in the case of the committee created by Bill C-59 or the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, there's a clearer and more obvious distinction with respect to the RCMP.C-59, An Act respecting national security mattersC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsInterdepartmental relationsSafetyMichelaineLahaieMichelaineLahaie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1720)[Translation]As long as good relationships are maintained, this shouldn't cause any issues in terms of the work.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsGovernment billsInterdepartmental relationsSafetyMichelaineLahaieMichelaineLahaie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1720)[Translation]Good.My next question concerns American customs officials. I think that it's important, because ordinary mortals, if you'll allow me to use that expression, don't always have a clear idea of who's responsible. Since the passage of Bill C-23, there has been increased use of pre-clearance, particularly during land crossings and at airportsDo you anticipate any complaints regarding how American officials treat Canadian citizens? Have you established a mechanism to deal with this? Will you pass on complaints to another agency? Will you raise public awareness? Will your approach include several components?BordersC-23, An Act respecting the preclearance of persons and goods in Canada and the United StatesC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsCanadians in foreign countriesComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyUnited States of AmericaMichelaineLahaieMichelaineLahaie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1725)[Translation]I apologize for hurrying, but my time is running out.During pre-clearance, the Americans operate on Canadian soil. Do you play any type of role if an incident that leads to a complaint takes place on Canadian soil, for example at a Canadian airport?BordersC-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsCanadians in foreign countriesComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyUnited States of AmericaMichelaineLahaieMichelaineLahaie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1725)[Translation]That's fine.I have one last question.On page 25, the proposed subclause 51(1) refers to the response of the president of the agency. Is this mechanism similar to the current mechanism of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP, whereby a written response is provided and, if no further action is taken, the reasons are also provided in writing? Forgive me for not knowing the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act by heart. Perhaps I should know it. Is it the same as the mechanism that currently exists in this legislation?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsComplaintsDecision-making processGovernment billsSafetyMichelaineLahaieMichelaineLahaie//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1725)[Translation]Okay, thank you.MichelaineLahaieJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1735)[English]In all cases, I don't think experience should diminish someone's capacity to act. I would vote against that.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1735)[English]I'm just wondering, through you Chair, if Mr. Travers can explain the inconsistency between the fact that the RCMP are forbidden but former CBSA members are allowed in this legislation.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEvanTravers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1740)[English]Chair, if I may, it seems like a pretty glaring inconsistency. You're going to have an organization that's now going to handle complaints for two different public safety entities. On the one hand, certain individuals—I take your point about the types of experiences—will be allowed. That's a very specific example, but it basically means that someone who served 30 years as a border officer and who is, with all due respect to the great work that they do, in a bit of a conflict of interest....I assume that is why the RCMP Act was drafted the way it was. It was to avoid the old adage of police investigating police. I know that it's called “public” now, but I'm just wondering if the civilian nature of it is a bit lost by this pretty important inconsistency that will now exist throughout what is supposed to be one organization. Could you perhaps offer us what the thinking was behind that?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyEvanTraversEvanTravers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1740)[English]I have a very quick question.I'm not going to support this amendment, but I just wanted to ask a question on the RCMP ban. Who is currently banned? Is it RCMP members in the meaning of the act, or any employee of the RCMP? C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodEvanTravers//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1740)[English]Uniformed officers?C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJacquesTalbotJacquesTalbot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1740)[English]So this amendment would apply to all CBSA employees, as you said, summer students. That answers my question, thank you.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJacquesTalbotJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1740)[English]Thank you, Chair.I'll support Mr. Manly's amendment because I think it refers to a pretty important inconsistency. Two big issues come to mind. One, which I think we heard in the testimony previously and through Mr. Eglinski's questions in particular, is the importance of building trust. I just feel that the inequity that this would create in this newly named commission would be problematic for building that trust.Two, again, we're using such a specific example of a summer student working three months at the agency, when the reality is that the loophole would allow someone who is in a much more conflicted position to be there. Unfortunately, I don't have wording to entertain an amendment to the amendment, to make that exemption appear, but again, just for the record, I think it's a pretty stark inconsistency, and so I'll support Mr. Manly's amendment.C-98, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and the Canada Border Services Agency Act and to make consequential amendments to other ActsClause-by-clause studyComplaintsGovernment billsSafetyJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault (Sherbrooke, NDP): (1535)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I hope that you'll rule this amendment in the package admissible. I'm confident that this will be the case, since the amendment is directly related to the testimony that we heard just yesterday from the United Steelworkers representatives. These people were interested in playing a greater role in the Canadian International Trade Tribunal. They not only want to participate in its hearings, they also want the option of filing complaints with the tribunal.My amendment seeks to achieve this objective by proposing a new definition of “domestic producer” in the Canadian International Trade Tribunal Act. Under this new definition, the employees and the unions or associations representing them would be considered domestic producers. As a result, they could file complaints through the complaint system set out in the act. If this definition were added, the unions and employees would be considered domestic producers. They could have a voice, and they could use the complaint and dispute settlement system set out in the act.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActClause-by-clause studyCustoms tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.The purpose of the amendment is to address a situation that I find very problematic, especially for the industry. Only two of the seven product categories were subject to safeguard measures, following the tribunal's analysis and decision and the subsequent order of the Minister of Finance.My amendment is quite clear. It seeks to protect the five other product categories:2.1 (1) If no order has been made under subsection 55(1) of the Customs Tariff in respect of concrete reinforcing bars, energy tubular products, hot-rolled sheets, pre-painted steel or wire rods within four months after the day on which this section comes into force, the Minister of Finance must cause a report to be tabled before each House of Parliament on any of the first 15 days on which that House is sitting after the expiry of that four-month period.(2) The report must include the reasons why no order has been made.The industry is concerned that five product categories will face risks and disruptions. Unlike the two other categories, these categories aren't subject to safeguard measures. The witnesses who appeared before us didn't say that the five other product categories would be protected in the future. For the sake of transparency, we're asking the Minister of Finance to table a report within four months of the coming into force of this section to explain why, if applicable, protection measures haven't been enforced.We want to make the process transparent, especially since people in the industry expect the government to stand up and support them, particularly with respect to the five product categories that I listed. These categories aren't currently subject to safeguard measures. As a result, these categories face risks, unlike the two categories for which protection measures have been granted.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActClause-by-clause studyCustoms tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1555)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Once again, the goal is to increase transparency with regard to “the impact on employment in Canada of the use of steel from domestic and foreign producers in the construction, maintenance and repair of public works, federal real property and federal immovables.”For a long time, the NDP has been asking for more transparency in public contracts when it comes to the use of Canadian steel. The NDP wants explanations on the source of the material used for the construction, maintenance and repair of public works. This would show whether the Government of Canada is helping our industries, primarily by purchasing steel products locally. This aspect is extremely important for many parts of the country.The amendment requires the minister to table a report in each House within six months of the coming into force of this section, in order to show the process for assessing the impact of public contracts on employment in the steel industry in Canada.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActClause-by-clause studyCustoms tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1600)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I also want to thank my NDP colleague for proposing this amendment. However, I believe that the amendment should be rejected.I think that there are other more appropriate and effective ways to ensure transparency on this issue. For example, a study could be conducted by a parliamentary committee. The Standing Committee on International Trade recently completed a study on the implications for Canada of tariffs imposed by the United States under section 232 of the United States' Trade Expansion Act. The study worked very well.There are already other ways to ensure transparency. I therefore propose that this amendment be rejected.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActClause-by-clause studyCustoms tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1600)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I hope that the fourth time will be the charm. The purpose of this amendment is to implement a tool so that the Minister of Finance can prepare a report on “the sufficiency of the resources allocated to the Canada Border Services Agency for the administration and enforcement of the program legislation, as defined in section 2 of the Canada Border Services Agency Act, with respect to steel.” Once again, the minister must table the report in the House within six months of the coming into force of this section.This is a matter of increasing transparency and giving the Canada Border Services Agency the capacity to intercept steel products that cost less than the normal estimates. As witnesses told us yesterday, CBSA plays a key role in ensuring the integrity of our borders and in preventing us from being inundated with low-cost, low-quality steel products. That's its role. However, some experts in the field have criticized CBSA's work. According to them, CBSA is sometimes too lax and is lacking in resources.As the Standing Committee on Finance, we must ask the minister to provide a report within six months of the coming into force of this section to ensure that CBSA has sufficient resources to carry out its mandate to protect our borders. In this case, the focus is on protecting the steel industry, which is under external pressure. CBSA must ensure that low-cost, low-quality steel doesn't enter the country.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActClause-by-clause studyCustoms tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1600)[Translation]I want to thank my colleague for his explanation. I also want to thank him for the initial efforts to strengthen our border and CBSA's capacities.However, nothing in his explanation prevents him from supporting my amendment. The amendment requires the minister, within six months of the coming into force of this section, to table a report in the House on the progress made and the sufficiency of the investments, in order to show both Houses that the efforts are having an impact and that the investments are producing results.I don't see how my colleague's explanations run counter to my amendment. Ultimately, we all have the same objective.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActClause-by-clause studyCustoms tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1605)[Translation]I wonder whether $500 per working meal is the standard cost. Since there are 10 of us at this table, the cost amounts to $50 per member. That's a bit expensive, especially given the questionable quality of yesterday's meal.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesInternational tradeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub (Thérèse-De Blainville, Lib.): (1625)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.[English]My question will be in French, so you might need translation.[Translation]I too want to thank you for your testimony. This is a troubling situation. It's hard to understand...[English]I'll wait for Madame Stote, just to make sure she....Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenBillCaseyCumberland—ColchesterKarenStote//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1625)[Translation]That's good.Personally, I can't accept that such a thing would happen anywhere in the world, and even less so in our country, Canada.The questions I would really like to ask you may be difficult.You said you don't have much data. People come to see you and tell you that they experienced this trauma, this illegal practice, that they were sterilized without their consent. There is something systemic there. There is concerted action. I'm not a doctor, but it seems that this type of medical act is practised in certain specific locations. As you mentioned, Ms. Joe, you just know that you have to avoid certain hospitals, because that sort of intervention might take place. There has been talk of asking the RCMP to investigate, but it doesn't happen, because there are too few complaints. In my opinion, one single complaint should be enough to get this file moving.All that being said, how does one conclude, as you have, that there is a systemic problem, and concerted action against indigenous women? Have other communities experienced the same type of problem? I'd like you to enlighten me on that.Ms. Lombard, you seem to want to respond, so please do so.The other witnesses could answer afterwards, if they wish.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenKarenStoteAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1630)[Translation]It is not that we need more information, but people say that we need more cases. However, in my opinion, in the Canadian legal system, someone who is aggrieved should, from the outset, be able to file a complaint and take action. It's already provided for in the code.In this context, why are we saying that no investigation is being conducted, if there is a complaint?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsCriminal investigations and hearingsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1630)[Translation]What did the police do?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1630)[Translation]You don't know?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1630)[Translation]Enlighten me on the technical side. When we say that these women were sterilized without their consent, is it because there was no consent, even in writing, and no one else was there? Is sterilization performed after the woman has given birth, or at a later time? How is this done without consent, how does it work?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsConsentReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1635)[Translation]Is it done exclusively at that time?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1635)[Translation]In the hundreds of cases you have been informed of, was this done exclusively at that time?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1635)[Translation]So it's possible to know who the doctors were who were present, isn't it?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1635)[Translation]You know their identity, don't you?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1635)[Translation]Have they never been questioned?Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1635)[Translation]I imagine that a person does not need to report a medical procedure performed without consent to the police, but that there is a process in the health care community that allows them to file such a complaint against a doctor.If consent has been given, it's different. Generally, when a person has surgery, he or she signs a consent form for the medical team to save their life or perform certain medical procedures in the event of a problem. Obviously, childbirth is not the same as this type of operation. No prior consent is given for sterilization.Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1635)[Translation]You say that this is done systematically; it is not "sometimes".Aboriginal peoplesCivil and human rightsReproductive healthWomenAlisaLombardAlisaLombard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88419RamezAyoubRamez-AyoubThérèse-De BlainvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AyoubRamez_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Ramez Ayoub: (1635)[Translation]Thank you.AlisaLombardBillCaseyCumberland—Colchester//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (1100)[English]Chair, I move that we put the recipe in the Hansard.LarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.): (1100)[English]You deserve it. You impress me, you know that?DavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1110)[English]The first time I encountered David was when I was working for a guy you might have heard of, Scott Simms, on the public accounts committee, where we served very briefly. My observation, because David Christopherson was the chair at the time, was that he was the first chair I had ever encountered who could filibuster his own committee. I have learned a lot from you, David, and it's been quite fun, because on our first day here—as I have said in the past—we had a fairly tense exchange in our very first interaction, so I thought, “Okay, that's a good start.”I do want to express some concern that when you leave, whoever replaces you from the NDP on this committee—or if it's multiple people; we'll see—will have your values in making sure that this committee can work in a non-partisan way. There are people in this place, in all parties, who are ruthlessly partisan, in a completely inappropriate way, and you're not.We've been able to function because I think, on all sides, we have that here. I just want to say how much I appreciate that and how much I learned from you over the last four years of working with you. Thank you. LarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25456ScottSimmsScott-SimmsCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SimmsScott_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Scott Simms (Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, Lib.): (1110)[English]He doesn't predate me, I can tell you that. In 2004, my friend, it was the Paul Martin minority government, and I went from government to opposition to third party and back to government. That's one thing I've got on you—Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. Scott Simms:—that I've been all around the circle.There's an old joke in Newfoundland where a Newfoundlander and, I'll say, a Hamiltonian were in the woods one day and a big grizzly bear walked out and growled and showed his teeth. The Newfoundlander bent over and started tying up his shoe and the Hamiltonian asked, “You don't think you're going to outrun that bear, do you?” The Newfoundlander says, “No, I just just have to outrun you.” The reason I bring up that story is that this is the type of business where we mark our own personal performance by the marching of others. On many occasions I find myself giving my interventions that, one, are at least understood by all and, two, using a cadence that will keep everyone's attention—at least for a short period, until I get my main point out.David did that with such absolutely astonishing ease. He made it seem so easy. The best professional athletes make their profession look easy, and David does that. He makes this profession look easy, but it's not easy. I've seen him on television and in the House and certainly at committee, and it's the passion that he brings from the grassroots to here. I say “grassroots” in the strictly political sense, from the municipal level to the provincial and now federal level.I think the past few weeks are a good way to summarize his opinion about how this place should work, because I have noticed with a great deal of angst that what has really driven him to a point of anger, which I didn't see before, was the idea of a dissenting report. Dissension was starting to get under David's skin, and it's still there perhaps. Whether or not we have a dissenting report, I think is a testament to how he wants us all to get along or, as he likes to say, “come along”.Anyway, David, you will be missed. I had a card for you here.A Voice: No. We're working on it.Mr. Scott Simms: Oh, you're working on it. All right. A Voice: A family card.Mr. Scott Simms: We're working on a card. All the best, my friend.I suspect you will not be with title, but certainly with opinion, and one that I hope you never extinguish. David, all the best.LarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88601LindaLapointeLinda-LapointeRivière-des-Mille-ÎlesLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/LapointeLinda_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Linda Lapointe: (1115)[Translation] I'll now add a bit of French to this discussion. [English] That's good for you. You will miss that in Hamilton, the French.Some hon. members: Oh, oh![Translation]You may recall that I first met you at a meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence, when I was replacing a colleague. At that time, I was impressed by how you promoted your ideas, but above all by your understanding of the issues. Obviously, you knew how to advocate for your interests and argue.When I joined the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs in September—I was the last member appointed—you impressed me once again. We were studying Bill C-76, and I had the impression that I was taking a course on filibustering. You certainly promote and debate your ideas with conviction, and you deserve full credit for it.As Ms. Sahota said, we learn a great deal from observing our more experienced colleagues and from never losing sight of our objectives and the interests of our constituents.Thank you.C-76, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and other Acts and to make certain consequential amendmentsRubySahotaBrampton NorthDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1115)[English]I wanted to ask Mr. Christopherson, and perhaps Mr. Simms if I could ask him.... We talked about your progression from the municipal level to the provincial and federal levels, which begs the question: What's next? Is it the UN or the CSA?LarryBagnellHon.YukonDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1115)[English]It's a delay of about one and a half to two seconds.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—KingstonScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Kingston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1115)[English]It's always there, but it's not on.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—KingstonScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Kingston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1115)[English][Inaudible--Editor] said that we should look at what we should do the next time.AndrewLauzonJohnNaterPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1115)[English]We won't, or they won't?JohnNaterPerth—WellingtonJohnNaterPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1115)[English]It could be a supply closet.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—KingstonJohnNaterPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1120)[English]You had to look up a little higher.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—KingstonDavidSweetFlamborough—Glanbrook//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/25456ScottSimmsScott-SimmsCoast of Bays—Central—Notre DameLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/SimmsScott_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Scott Simms: (1120)[English] Before I do I would like to expose the.... I hope you take it in a lighthearted way, but we asked our spokesperson to be the front of our presentation to you and this card. If a spokesperson would like to—ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—KingstonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)): (0920)[English] Order, please. We're going to resume, and I'll give the floor to Mr. Boissonnault to tell us what he would like to propose.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]I think I should advise the committee that I don't think that would be the correct wording if the intention is for the committee to strike this itself. “Recommend” wouldn't be the right word then. What you want to achieve—CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]—just so I understand, is that the committee do it itself and not that it have the House do it.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English] If that is what you want to achieve—CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]—the clerk is going to suggest the appropriate wording for the committee to consider, because “recommend” would be recommending to somebody.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreTraceyRamseyEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]No.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersTraceyRamseyEssexTraceyRamseyEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]The clerk is telling us that in order for the committee to do it itself, the wording he is suggesting would be “that the name of the attacker, as well as any quoted portion of his manifesto and the section of audio pertaining to these comments, be struck from the committee's evidence.” That's what he is suggesting.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersTraceyRamseyEssexRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC): (0920)[Translation]It may be clear to you, but we are not too sure what you are talking about.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]Yes.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]We'll go to Tracey and then—RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreTraceyRamseyEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English]Then it would be with respect to Mr. Cooper's remarks to Mr. Suri, and we'll put the right witness groups, the Alberta Muslim Council or whatever.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English]It would be “That with respect to Mr. Cooper's remarks to Mr. Suri of the Alberta Muslim Public Affairs Council at committee testimony on Tuesday, May 28, 2019, the name of the New Zealand Christchurch attacker as well as any quoted portion of his manifesto in the section of audio pertaining to these comments be struck from the committee's evidence.”Would that be what you're saying?CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English]Go ahead, Dave.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreDaveMacKenzieOxford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English]I'll go to Tracey, then Michael, then Ron.DaveMacKenzieOxfordTraceyRamseyEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English]I have Michael, Ron, Ali and Iqra.TraceyRamseyEssexMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]I think I can easily put this to bed. This meeting was dealing with the report on online hate. It is part of the study on online hate. This motion relates to a meeting on online hate, which means the 48 hours' notice is not required for the motion because it deals with the meeting we are actually at. There is no 48 hours' notice required for that motion because it deals with the study that we are now dealing with in this report, which the agenda item for this meeting.On that issue, no. It's receivable, which is what I had said before. It's a receivable motion.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]You want an opinion from the clerk, as far as....MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMarc-OlivierGirard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]I believe this is exactly what was ruled at the previous meeting when Mr. Boissonnault brought forward a motion. Because it was a meeting on online hate, the 48-hour notice wasn't required. On the agenda this is also a meeting on online hate, so the 48-hour notice is not required.Now I have three people on the speakers list. I have Mr. McKinnon, Mr. Ehsassi and Ms. Khalid.Go ahead, Mr. McKinnon.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersMarc-OlivierGirardRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Ehsassi.RonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.AliEhsassiWillowdaleIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]I have Mr. Boissonnault and then Ms. Ramsey.IqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]Thank you.Ms. Ramsey is next, and then Mr. Paul-Hus.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreTraceyRamseyEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]Go ahead, Mr. Paul-Hus.TraceyRamseyEssexPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (0935)[Translation]First, if this was not a political game, our meeting could have stayed in camera, but that's fine. I know that everyone in communications is waiting to see whether the Conservatives are going to say things that will get them into trouble. The ultimate objective of Mr. Boissonnault's motion is to try and trip us up.I think that everything has been said. Let's get the text of the motion.Thank you.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksReferences to membersAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[Translation]Great.[English]I don't have anybody left on the speakers list.[Translation]Mr. Clerk, could you read us the final motion, or do you want me to do it?PierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]You would like a recorded vote.Basically, as I understand it, it would be: That, in relation to the statements of Michael Cooper, Member for St. Albert — Edmonton, to the witness Faisal Khan Suri, President of the Alberta Muslim Public Affairs Council, at the meeting of Tuesday, May 28, 2019, the name of the perpetrator of the massacre in Christchurch, New Zealand, and any quoted portion of his manifesto, be struck from the Committee’s public record, including the Evidence and audio recording.Now we've been asked for a recorded vote. We will have a recorded vote. I'll turn it over to the clerk.CensorshipCommittee businessCooper, MichaelMembers' remarksMotionsReferences to membersRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreMarc-OlivierGirard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0940)[English]Does anyone have any other business before we move to the panel of witnesses? If not, I'm going to suspend the meeting until the witnesses are ready, which should be in the next 15 minutes or so.I'd ask that everyone be back at 9:55.(0940)(0955)Marc-OlivierGirardAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0955)[English] We will resume this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, as we continue our study of Bill C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility).It is a great pleasure to be joined by this panel of witnesses who are here to share their expertise with us today.We are joined by Mr. Joseph Wamback, the founder and chair of the Canadian Crime Victim Foundation. Welcome.C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility)Conditional releaseLife sentencesPrivate Members' BillsAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalJosephWamback//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0955)[English] We are joined as well by Mr. Howard Bebbington, the Chair of the Policy Review Committee of the Canadian Criminal Justice Association. Welcome. We are also joined by Mr. Lorne Goldstein, a Partner at Abergel Goldstein & Partners, LLP, as an individual. Welcome.JosephWambackLorneGoldstein//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0955)[English]We will take the witnesses in the order in which they appear on the agenda.Mr. Wamback, the floor is yours, sir.LorneGoldsteinJosephWamback//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1000)[English]Thank you very much.I will now move to Mr. Bebbington.JosephWambackHowardBebbington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1005)[English]I'm sorry, but I need to interrupt. I see the bells are going. Do we have consent to continue for a period of time?HowardBebbingtonDaveMacKenzieOxford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1005)[English]I'm checking with the clerk. We don't have consent to continue.Let me ask the members of the committee. Do you wish to return after the vote to finish this meeting to give the witnesses a chance to provide their testimony?C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility)Conditional releaseLife sentencesPrivate Members' BillsDaveMacKenzieOxfordRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1005)[English]We are going to suspend this meeting. We will return after this vote.I'm very sorry to interrupt you in the middle of your remarks, sir.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreHowardBebbington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1005)[English]I'll ask again. Do we have consent to let him go two more minutes to finish his remarks?C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility)Conditional releaseLife sentencesPrivate Members' BillsHowardBebbingtonDaveMacKenzieOxford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1005)[English]Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie.Please continue.DaveMacKenzieOxfordHowardBebbington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1005)[English]Thank you very much.We're going to suspend. We'll come back for Mr. Goldstein's remarks as soon as the vote is over. Again, I apologize to the witnesses.(1005)(1055)HowardBebbingtonAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1055)[English] We will come back now to the testimony of the witnesses.We will turn to Mr. Goldstein. Mr. Goldstein, the floor is yours.AnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalLorneGoldstein//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1105)[English]Thank you very much.Given the time frame—we all know we have another vote—may I ask the committee's agreement that we do four minutes in each of the rounds? It will take 16 minutes. We should all then make it to the vote with no problem. Is everybody good with that?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Perfect.We'll start with Mr. MacKenzie.LorneGoldsteinDaveMacKenzieOxford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1110)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Fraser is next.DaveMacKenzieOxfordColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1115)[English]Thank you very much.Ms. Ramsey is next.ColinFraserWest NovaTraceyRamseyEssex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. McKinnon is next.TraceyRamseyEssexRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English]Sorry. Could I get unanimous consent to continue for four minutes, just until Mr. McKinnon's questions are over?Some hon. members: Agreed.The Chair: Thank you.LorneGoldsteinRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English]Do you have a brief last comment, Mr. Goldstein?HowardBebbingtonLorneGoldstein//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1120)[English]I would like to thank the witnesses. Your testimony has been very, very helpful to us.I'd like to remind committee members that amendments must be submitted by five o'clock Friday for this bill, and we will move to clause-by-clause study next Tuesday.Thank you very much, everyone.This meeting is adjourned.LorneGoldstein//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès (Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.): (0930)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you all for being here.Mr. Ricard, Mr. Hayes, Ms. Thomas and, especially, Mr. Leswick, thank you very much for accepting our last minute invitation.I will use a bit of my time to ensure that the record clearly shows the government members' position. We all agree with the necessity of an independent mechanism to determine the budget of agents of Parliament. We hold strongly to that.That said, I thank the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons for beginning the review process of the funding mechanism for those agents and for having thought about our next steps. This is a long-term undertaking, which is not done as quickly as we wish, but we recognize that the leader is also responsible for moving forward all the bills that come before the House.To the arguments Mr. Christopherson—whom I respect tremendously and admire deeply as a committee colleague—presented related to the rejection of the Office of the Auditor General's request, I would add a fourth reason, which I think is a good one based on what Mr. Leswick just told us. Taking into account the government's financial capacity, it was not possible to provide the office with the additional funding it wanted. That had nothing to do with a desire for vengeance or a fear of what the office could do. Simply put, it was a matter of financial capacity.Mr. Leswick, do you want to comment?Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootNicholasLeswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0935)[English]Additional funding over the five years that you've put...?Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralNicholasLeswickNicholasLeswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0935)[English]So in 2018-19, that did not come into account when you studied the credits that would be given to the office?Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralNicholasLeswickNicholasLeswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0935)[English]Yes.NicholasLeswickNicholasLeswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0935)[Translation]Mr. Ricard, if I have understood correctly, the issue of human resources is one of your challenges. You have to meet the contractual obligations you have had since 2014-15, I believe. There have been salary increases. I think that is in your presentation.Government expendituresIncome and wagesOffice of the Auditor GeneralStaffingNicholasLeswickSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0935)[Translation]Okay. You also alluded to your computing capacity. That issue is not new. A few years ago, you realized that you would potentially need to modernize and increase your computing capacity.Over the years, have you created a fund to improve your computing capacity, so that you could eventually make the necessary changes, or do you operate on a year-by-year basis?Government expendituresInformation technologyOffice of the Auditor GeneralSylvainRicardSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0935)[Translation]Is that because you will no longer have the tools you need?Government expendituresInformation technologyOffice of the Auditor GeneralSylvainRicardSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0935)[Translation]Thank you.SylvainRicardKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen (St. John's East, Lib.): (0945)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Sorenson.Speaking of the work plan for 2019-20, what performance audits will you do?Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0945)[English]Just the performance ones.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralCaseyThomasCaseyThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0945)[English]Great. Thank you very much.CaseyThomasCaseyThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0945)[English]No, this is perfect.Mr. Leswick, with respect to that, are there other departments or agencies within government that have the mandate to look at the results and measures that Ms. Thomas says the Auditor General wants to have a project on instead of cybersecurity and Arctic sovereignty, and that might be better positioned to do that work?Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralCaseyThomasNicholasLeswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0945)[English]Within Treasury Board is there someone—Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralNicholasLeswickNicholasLeswick//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0945)[English]That's fair enough.Maybe Mr. Christopherson was right: maybe you were thrown to the wolves a little today.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralNicholasLeswickDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0945)[English]It's very interesting.As to the decision to be made between doing the respect in the workplace audit, the immigration audit, and student financial assistance audit, why was the decision made to prioritize those over the things that the committee and parliamentarians have made very clear are our priorities, which would be cybersecurity and Arctic sovereignty? I think if the choice were up to parliamentarians—and perhaps it should be—I think we would reprioritize your work plan.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0950)[English]That's interesting. You're then telegraphing, I guess, that you feel that the four you mentioned would present a greater risk to Canadians than the two you're cancelling.They're not in the top four audits that you think need to be done.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralCaseyThomasCaseyThomas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0950)[English] So you're saying that, even if you had the money today, because the team isn't ready, you couldn't have delivered on cybersecurity anyway. It's really capacity within your organization over a long period of time that's preventing the cybersecurity audit from being done, because you don't have the team that's built up. This is really a longer term problem; that's my understanding of what's being said.It doesn't really seem to be anything that's related to the current funding gap. This seems to be a problem that arises entirely because, over the period of time, you did not have two technical teams for IT audits.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralCaseyThomasKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35389StevenBlaneyHon.Steven-BlaneyBellechasse—Les Etchemins—LévisConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/BlaneySteven_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Blaney (Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC): (0955)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. [Translation]Your comments this morning are very troubling. We like to believe that the Auditor General ensures that the Canadian public has a credible relationship of trust with government institutions.We find that Justin Trudeau's Liberal government is not only preventing you from obtaining the money that you need to do your job, but is basically interfering with the choice of topics that you can study.As a former Minister of Public Safety, I can assure you that cybersecurity is important. The chair mentioned it. An election is imminent, but you have neither the money nor the tools to reassure Canadians that measures have been implemented to counter foreign influence. It's very troubling.My next comments will concern the re-establishment of the independence of officers of Parliament from the executive. This issue is at the heart of Canadian democracy, and the government is clearly on the wrong track.Mr. Chair, I'll address this point in my next comments.Thank you.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralScotDavidsonYork—SimcoeKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1005)[English]It's so interesting.KevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35389StevenBlaneyHon.Steven-BlaneyBellechasse—Les Etchemins—LévisConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/BlaneySteven_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Blaney: (1015)[English]How long do I have?KevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35389StevenBlaneyHon.Steven-BlaneyBellechasse—Les Etchemins—LévisConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/BlaneySteven_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Blaney: (1015)[Translation] I want to add to what a distinguished parliamentarian in the House of Commons said about the importance of the separation of powers and the credibility of the officers of Parliament. My question concerns the most recent comment. The current government, when it was elected, promised us transparency and told us that Canada was back on the international stage. Nevertheless, we've seen interference with shipbuilding and procurement contracts and the dismissal of Vice-Admiral Norman. We've seen the Minister of Justice resign. She claimed that she was told what to do, including to interfere with the justice system even though her powers were executive. This has never been seen before in Canadian history. We have a problem. We're promised transparency. However, the Liberals are undermining the reputation of the Office of the Auditor General, the organization with the best international reputation, by trying to reduce its budget and guide its work. I want to know what you're proposing to ensure the independence of the Auditor General.Thank you.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralOfficers of ParliamentKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootAlexandraMendèsBrossard—Saint-Lambert//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1015)[English] Point of order.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralOfficers of ParliamentStevenBlaneyHon.Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—LévisKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1015)[Translation] I just want to clarify something. There may not be the desired increase, but there's no budget reduction.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralOfficers of ParliamentKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35389StevenBlaneyHon.Steven-BlaneyBellechasse—Les Etchemins—LévisConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/BlaneySteven_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Blaney: (1015)[Translation]That's true.Mrs. Mendès, that isn't a point of order. It's a point of debate. However, I must admit that you're absolutely right.That said, at a time when extremely important issues are on the table, we can see the government's interference.I have a question for you, Mr. Ricard. How can we restore or preserve the independence of officers of Parliament?Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralOfficers of ParliamentKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35389StevenBlaneyHon.Steven-BlaneyBellechasse—Les Etchemins—LévisConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/BlaneySteven_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Blaney: (1015)[Translation]That's a very good answer.KevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35389StevenBlaneyHon.Steven-BlaneyBellechasse—Les Etchemins—LévisConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/BlaneySteven_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Blaney: (1020)[Translation]Yes.Mr. Chair, pardon me for interrupting you.With regard to Mrs. Mendès' point of order, you said that we work in a non-partisan manner. However, the Auditor General just told us that he's being prevented from doing his job. I find it unacceptable that the Liberal Party is trying to keep the government's watchdog on a leash.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35389StevenBlaneyHon.Steven-BlaneyBellechasse—Les Etchemins—LévisConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/BlaneySteven_CPC.jpgInterventionHon. Steven Blaney: (1020)[Translation]We must strive to preserve the independence of our institutions. I plan to keep taking every opportunity to do so.Government expendituresOffice of the Auditor GeneralKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1020)[English]We have 10 minutes.KevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès (Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.): (1625)[English]Thank you very much.Thank you, all, for being here.[Translation]My question has to do with translation and interpretation. I've been hearing, for a while now, about how difficult it is to recruit interpreters. That's not the case for translators. Interpreters, however, are in short supply, and it's likely related to health.Do you have a plan to deal with the shortage of interpreters? Have you found any solutions?Department of Public Works and Government ServicesGovernment plans and priorities reportsLabour shortageMain estimates 2019-2020Reports on Plans and Priorities, Main Estimates, 2019-2020Simultaneous interpretation and sound reinforcementJeanYipScarborough—AgincourtBillMatthews//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1630)[English]Thank you very much.BillMatthewsTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1655)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. [Translation]Thank you all for being here.Ms. Cahill, I'm going to continue with Mr. Blaikie's line of questioning in an effort to arrive at the answer he was looking for.if I understood correctly, you told my fellow member, Ms. Ratansi, that people in the various departments aren't really in the habit of budgeting.Government plans and priorities reportsMain estimates 2019-2020Public financeTreasury Board SecretariatTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganKarenCahill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1655)[Translation]My question ties in with what Mr. Blaikie was asking Mr. Purves about.Under vote 10, I believe, funding in the amount of $90 million is being requested with few details on how the money will be used and what programs it will support. Is that due to the fact that departments lack the capacity to adequately account for how they will spend the funding allocated to them?Government plans and priorities reportsMain estimates 2019-2020Public financeTreasury Board SecretariatKarenCahillKarenCahill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1655)[Translation]If I understand correctly, that state of affairs has nothing to do with vote 10, for which details are lacking.Government plans and priorities reportsMain estimates 2019-2020Public financeTreasury Board SecretariatKarenCahillKarenCahill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1700)[Translation]What's the problem with vote 10, then? Why aren't there more details so that Parliament knows exactly what it is voting on? Why isn't it fleshed out?Government plans and priorities reportsMain estimates 2019-2020Public financeTreasury Board SecretariatKarenCahillKarenCahill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1700)[Translation]I know Ms. Santiago would also be quite capable of answering the question.KarenCahillGlennPurves//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault (Sherbrooke, NDP): (1615)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.My first question concerns the five of the seven categories of steel products that no longer benefit from safeguard measures. First, I would like to hear the witnesses' opinion on the need, as soon as this bill is passed, to reimpose safeguard measures as soon as possible.Mr. Neumann or Ms. Cobden, what do you think?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismSteel industryWayneEasterHon.MalpequeCatherineCobden//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1620)[Translation]That's no problem at all, Ms. Cobden.CatherineCobdenCatherineCobden//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1620)[Translation]You all tell us that the bill seems good. However, we know that the legislation, once it receives royal assent, will only be in force for two years. Do you think that this two-year period is sufficient? Will there not be risks that there will still be uncertainty in the markets, that we will find ourselves in the same situation in two years' time and that we will still have to adopt similar legislation?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismKenNeumannJohnWhite//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1620)[Translation]Mr. Neumann, do you share this view? Do you have anything to add?JohnWhiteKenNeumann//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1700)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My first question is for you, Mr. Neumann.You made a proposal about union participation in the Canadian International Trade Tribunal. Can you give us more details on this proposal? You propose that the law formally recognize the role of unions with respect to the tribunal. You want them to participate in the hearings and be able to file complaints or cases with the tribunal. Can you give us an idea of what this might look like?My second question is for anyone who can give us more information on the role of the Canada Border Services Agency at our borders, mainly in preventing and detecting dumping.What do you think about the effectiveness of the agency's work in this regard? Does it have the necessary resources to do this work?Mr. Neumann can answer first, and then we could hear from the others.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCanada Border Services AgencyCanadian International Trade TribunalCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDumping of importsGovernment billsInternational tradeLabour unionsSteel industryWayneEasterHon.MalpequeKenNeumann//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1705)[English]On the CBSA, anyone?KenNeumannCatherineCobden//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin (Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, CPC): (1545)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Gentlemen, first of all, I want to welcome you. Thank you for being here. Your jitters are long gone, Mr. Giroux.Mr. Fisher, unfortunately, I'm not wearing my Blues sweater now, but I'd be happy if I were. We'll talk about it tomorrow morning.Mr. Giroux, I have a question for you. I'm trying to understand. You are showing us a fiscal analysis. I know those are projections, but could you tell me what you used to estimate the costs and revenues by quintile, by province, per capita. It's quite complex.What data did you use to obtain those results?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1550)[Translation]According to your estimates, will GHGs remain stable, increase or decrease?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1550)[Translation]If possible, I would like you to provide the committee with the model indicating the reduction in greenhouse gases by 2030.8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1550)[Translation]Earlier, you mentioned the 90% of the revenues being reimbursed to the public. You said it was a fixed amount, clearly determined, that did not vary according to consumption. In addition, it would not be directly related to the amounts generated by the carbon tax.Did I understand correctly?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxTax refundsTax revenuesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1550)[Translation]Unless I misunderstood.YvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1550)[Translation]You have broad shoulders.YvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1550)[Translation]Since the amount will increase from $20 to $50 over the next five years, the envelope will expand, so to speak. The envelope will be allocated according to very specific criteria.What criteria are used to determine that households in the lowest income quintile in Saskatchewan will receive $117 more than it will cost them?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxTax refundsTax revenuesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1550)[Translation]I would like to ask a quick question.If it doesn't generate that much money—YvesGirouxJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley City//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1610)[Translation]Mr. Giroux, let me come back to what we talked about earlier.If we do not generate enough money with the carbon tax, where will the government find the money needed to pay what I will call the “royalties to Canadians”?My understanding is that that program funds itself, that 90% of the amount generated by the tax goes back to taxpayers and that they will receive more money than the estimated amount they will have paid. However, if your models indicate that you will not make the total amount required, where will you find the money to pay the rebates to taxpayers? Will you reduce them, or will you go elsewhere?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxTax refundsJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1610)[Translation]I have one last, simple question.In that study, have you measured the reduction in greenhouse gases in those four provinces?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1610)[Translation]In your report?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1610)[Translation]Please continue.YvesGirouxJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley City//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1615)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.In fact, Mr. Giroux, I will come back to what I mentioned earlier. I can understand that there may be some confusion between today's report and tomorrow's, but you can see that we are very interested and that we will read tomorrow's report carefully.In the study you conducted, did you measure the effect of the measures on greenhouse gas reduction in those four provinces? I think that was one of the objectives.8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1615)[Translation]Do those figures appear in the document?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1615)[Translation]Can you give me the reference?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1615)[Translation]Okay. Can you walk me through it?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Could we safely say that this program will allow an average reduction of 4% to 5% in greenhouse gases in the four provinces between 2019 and 2024?We understand that Ontario has a larger demographic weight. The projected 4% reduction in this province may be larger in absolute terms than the 15% reduction in Saskatchewan.8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Will we have it in tomorrow's report?I'm joking.8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?YvesGirouxJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley City//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Okay.We are talking about redistributing 90% of the revenues from pricing related to greenhouse gas emission to taxpayers. Where will the remaining 10% go?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Is that already planned?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]The assistance will probably take the form of grants, right?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxGreenhouse gasesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]I would like to talk about Table 1 of the summary of the French document.Between 2019-20 and 2021-22, carbon pricing will be $20, $30 and $40 per tonne, and in 2022-23 and 2023-24, it will be $50. Rates are the same for both years, but it is estimated that revenues will decline in 2023-24. How do you explain that?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxTax revenuesYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]You used the word “probably”. These are models based on the hope that energy consumption and population will not increase too much and that companies will not increase their production. So it's hypothetical.8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Have you made any comparisons with other countries that have implemented this sort of system to determine the effect it has had after five, six or 10 years?8560-421-1119-38 Report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer entitled "Fiscal and Distributional Analysis of the Federal Carbon Pricing System" for the year 2020Carbon pricingCarbon taxYvesGirouxYvesGiroux//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Thank you.YvesGirouxJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley City//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)): (1525)[English]I call the meeting to order. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), in our study of the implementation in Canada of a third party habitat banking framework, we have several witnesses here today. We have a couple by video conference and one in person. By video conference we have Marian Weber, Professor, Department of Resource Economics and Environmental Sociology, University of Alberta. Welcome. We also have, from Poulton Environmental Strategies Incorporated, Mr. David Poulton, Principal. He is here by video conference as well.Here in person we have a witness who is well known to all of us Newfoundlanders anyway—and to people from the mainland, as we call it—the Honourable David Wells, Senator. Thank you for being here, all three of you, by video conference and in person. We'll begin with presentations by our witnesses. We'll go first to video conference. I'd like to get that out of the way first, in case there's a problem with the connection later. Ms. Weber, when you're ready, please, you have seven minutes or less. Fisheries and fishersHabitat conservationMarianWeber//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1535)[English]Thank you, Ms. Weber.We'll now go to Mr. Poulton for seven minutes or less, please. MarianWeberDavidPoulton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1545)[English]Thank you, Mr. Poulton.We will go now to Senator Wells for seven minutes or less, please.DavidPoultonDavid MarkWellsHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1550)[English]Thank you, Senator Wells.We'll now go to rounds of questioning, and we'll start with the government side. I understand Mr. Morrissey was going to go first, so we'll go now to the second one. Mr. Rogers, you have seven minutes or less, please.David MarkWellsHon.ChurenceRogersBonavista—Burin—Trinity//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98744ChurenceRogersChurence-RogersBonavista—Burin—TrinityLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RogersChurence_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Churence Rogers (Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, Lib.): (1550)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Dr. Poulton, I have a couple of questions around your presentation. Can you speak to other jurisdictions that we can learn from when it comes to habitat banking? Also, I have a couple of follow-up questions. How long has it been in place in these jurisdictions? Can you also speak to some of the legislative complexities that go with habitat banking systems?Fisheries and fishersHabitat conservationKenMcDonaldAvalonDavidPoulton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98744ChurenceRogersChurence-RogersBonavista—Burin—TrinityLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RogersChurence_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Churence Rogers: (1555)[English] In the U.S. it seems to be a fairly complex process. Legislation on habitat banking there is in excess of 100 pages. How complex is that system compared to the Victoria one that you talk about?Fisheries and fishersHabitat conservationUnited States of AmericaDavidPoultonDavidPoulton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98744ChurenceRogersChurence-RogersBonavista—Burin—TrinityLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RogersChurence_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Churence Rogers: (1555)[English]I thank you for that comparison and clarification.There have been concerns raised around jurisdictional issues as well. Who do you think is important to bring into the conversation in terms of indigenous groups and communities?Aboriginal peoplesFisheries and fishersHabitat conservationDavidPoultonDavidPoulton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/98744ChurenceRogersChurence-RogersBonavista—Burin—TrinityLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RogersChurence_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Churence Rogers: (1600)[English]Thank you.DavidPoultonKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1600)[English]Thank you, Mr. Rogers.We will go to the Conservative side. We have Mr. Doherty for seven minutes or less, please.ChurenceRogersBonavista—Burin—TrinityToddDohertyCariboo—Prince George//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1605)[English]Thank you, Mr. Doherty.Now we go to the NDP and to Mr. Johns for seven minutes or less, please. ToddDohertyCariboo—Prince GeorgeGordJohnsCourtenay—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you, Mr. Johns. Your time is up for now. We'll now go to the government side.Mr. Morrissey, you have seven minutes or less, please. David MarkWellsHon.RobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]You have three minutes. KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you, Mr. Hardie.We'll now go to the Conservative side and Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[English]Thank you, Mr. Arnold. Your time is up.I want to say thank you to our witnesses for appearing, both by video conference and here in person. We'll suspend for a couple of minutes to change the panel for the next hour. We have some witnesses by video conference and we want to make sure they're hooked up and ready to go. Again, thank you to everyone for appearing as witnesses here today.(1625)(1630)MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—ShuswapKenMcDonaldAvalon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[English]We'll get started now on our next hour of testimony. Appearing here by video conference is Mr. Paul Norris, President of the Ontario Waterpower Association. Welcome, sir. As well, from Ontario Power Generation Incorporated, here in person we have Mr. Daniel Gibson, Senior Environment Specialist and Chair of the Fisheries Working Group in Renewable Generation and Environment for Waterpower Canada. Welcome, sir.We'll start off now with some testimony from Mr. Norris for seven minutes or less please, when you're ready.KenMcDonaldAvalonPaulNorris//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you, Mr. Norris.We'll now go to Mr. Gibson.You have seven minutes or less, please.PaulNorrisDanielGibson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Thank you, Mr. Gibson.We'll go now to the government side and Mr. Finnigan, please, for seven minutes or less.DanielGibsonPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.Unfortunately, Mr. Finnigan said he was sharing his time, not splitting it.RobertMorrisseyEgmontRobertMorrisseyEgmont//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1650)[English]Now we'll go to Mr. Calkins on the Conservative side, for seven minutes or less, please.RobertMorrisseyEgmontBlaineCalkinsRed Deer—Lacombe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1700)[English]Thank you, Mr. Calkins. We will probably have to wait to get an answer from another questioner on that one. We've gone way over time.Mr. Johns, go ahead for seven minutes or less, please.BlaineCalkinsRed Deer—LacombeGordJohnsCourtenay—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English]Thank you, Mr. Johns. Your time is well up.We will now go back to the government side and Mr. Hardie. You have seven minutes or less.Go ahead, please.GordJohnsCourtenay—AlberniKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Thank you, Mr. Hardie.Now we will go to the Conservative side for five minutes or less.Go ahead, Mr. Arnold.KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1720)[English]Thank you, Mr. Arnold.I'll take this time now to thank both of our witnesses, Mr. Gibson and Mr. Norris, for their presentations here today.To be truthful, I thought when we took this on that it was going to be a bit of a boring conversation, but it certainly hasn't been. It's been of interest, I have to say.Thank you both.I'm going to suspend for a minute to do a little bit of committee business to talk about what's happening next week.Thank you.[Proceedings continue in camera]MelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1545)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair. [Translation]Mr. Halley, thank you very much for joining us today and for your testimony.Since you made your presentation in English, I will also put my questions to you in English.[English]You mentioned in your opening remarks that the conditions for imposition of safeguards measures have not changed. I'm wondering if you could similarly confirm that the manner in which CITT conducts its inquiries has not changed either, and will not change, should this legislation pass.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCanadian International Trade TribunalCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInquiries and public inquiriesInternational tradeWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMichèleGovier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1545)[English]Okay. Perhaps just for Canadians watching and for everybody's benefit, even in this committee, you could take us through the steps, if you will, of what would happen should the legislation pass and the government determine, based on changing market circumstances, that safeguards should be put in place. Could you just take us through what the process would look like?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismMichèleGovierMichèleGovier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1545)[English]I'm sorry to interrupt, but when you say “they”, you mean—MichèleGovierMichèleGovier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1545)[English]The independent tribunal.MichèleGovierMichèleGovier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1545)[English]Thank you. MichèleGovierWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1545)[English]I'm wondering if you could confirm this. While the CITT is analyzing the safeguards and conducting its examination, pending the result of its final decision, the provisional safeguards are in place, are they not?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCanadian International Trade TribunalCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInquiries and public inquiriesInternational tradeProtectionismWayneEasterHon.MalpequeMichèleGovier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1550)[English]That was instead of waiting an indeterminate amount of time for the tribunal to make its decision.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCanadian International Trade TribunalCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInquiries and public inquiriesInternational tradeProtectionismMichèleGovierMichèleGovier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1550)[English]Thank you very much.MichèleGovierWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault (Sherbrooke, NDP): (1555)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank the witnesses for coming to explain Bill C-101 to us.First, we are talking about provisional safeguards, but are permanent safeguards planned? Is that a possibility the government is considering?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismWayneEasterHon.MalpequePatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1555)[Translation]A decision from the tribunal was necessary to be able to establish that.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCanadian International Trade TribunalCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1555)[Translation]There must be a reason the legislator decided on this procedure. Today, we are being asked to change a rule that was established in the legislation several years ago by members who came before us. There is surely a reason that, once a safeguard expires, two years must go by before a new one can be imposed.Can you tell me what the reasoning behind that change is? Why should we change it today?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1600)[Translation]Is that because it could not be proved that dumping was used in the steel and aluminum industry?Aluminum industryC-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDumping of importsGovernment billsInternational tradeSteel industryPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1600)[Translation]I want to come back to the tribunal, to which you gave the mandate to inquire. It turned out that two steel products out of seven had to be subject to safeguards. Were you expecting the tribunal to decide that it would be seven products out of seven?We feel that the problem is that we are getting involved a bit late and have to backtrack to adjust. We did not anticipate this situation.Did you expect the tribunal to request safeguards for only two of the seven products?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCanadian International Trade TribunalCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismSteel industryPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1600)[Translation]My question was more about whether it was expected that this situation could occur one day. Perhaps it should have been considered previously that the tribunal could possibly make that kind of a decision at some point. This decision led to a lack of safeguards for certain products now that the provisional safeguards have expired. So Canada is leaving itself open when it comes to those products.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismSteel industryPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1635)[Translation]Thank you.I would like to come back to certain things that have been said so far, including the fact that five product categories are currently unprotected, so they are not subject to any safeguards.Following the passing of this bill, when do you expect to apply new safeguards to those five product categories?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismSteel industryWayneEasterHon.MalpequePatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1635)[Translation]In other words, there will not automatically be any new provisional measures. It will depend on a process similar to the one used in the past.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismSteel industryPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1635)[Translation]The bill we are preparing to pass in committee and in the House will have a two-year lifespan. So it will no longer be valid two years after the royal assent. Have I understood correctly?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1640)[Translation]Why is that?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1640)[Translation]As far as I understand, the 200-day measures remain. In the two-year period following the royal assent, you will have the possibility to impose provisional measures again that will last a maximum of 200 days.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1640)[Translation]During that period, a ruling from the tribunal could make it possible to extend that period by three years through final safeguards.C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismPatrickHalleyPatrickHalley//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1640)[Translation]How did you decide on that two-year temporary period? Is it related to our international obligations?Earlier, it was not clear. We were being told that other countries proceeded in that manner, but that our international obligations did not require such a system with a tribunal and provisional measures that expire after 200 days.If there are no problems with our international obligations, why choose this?C-101, An Act to amend the Customs Tariff and the Canadian International Trade Tribunal ActCustoms tariff and customs dutiesGovernment billsInternational tradeProtectionismPatrickHalleyMichèleGovier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault (Sherbrooke, NDP): (1140)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I am very disappointed that the minister did not give us the opportunity to ask her questions. She came to testify about the main estimates for 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19, but she did not want to appear before our committee to defend the 2019-20 main estimates. That being said, I would now like to turn to the KPMG case. You probably expected that. I discussed this with you, Mr. Gallivan, as recently as last February. I don't know if you're the one who can answer my questions. You made the following comments at the time, which are public: Then there's the fact that some participants [in the KPMG case] objected to the Tax Court of Canada. It will be up to the judges of that court to decide whether the behaviour of those participants was consistent with the law.Last week, we learned that the Canada Revenue Agency had reached an agreement, an out-of-court settlement, to close the file. In the end, no judge will have pronounced on the behaviour of these participants. Yet the minister said that there was no amnesty in the KPMG case and that there would never be one. However, for me, this corresponds more or less exactly to the definition of an amnesty. We may not agree on that.In any event, I would like to know who, in the KPMG case, made the decision to settle out of court with these participants.Canada Revenue AgencyKPMGMain estimates 2019-2020Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTedGallivan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1145)[Translation]So it is the appeals branch, in consultation...Was the minister informed before this was signed? If so, when?Canada Revenue AgencyKPMGMain estimates 2019-2020Tax evasionTedGallivanTedGallivan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1145)[Translation]In her comments, the minister said that in her view this settlement was not appropriate; her opinion is clear. She said that it lacked transparency, and I think we all agree on that. Obviously, she does not control what happens in her department.Can you say that this is an independent decision made by the agency, when it should instead make this case an example to send a clear message to all Canadians that cheating is criminal?Canada Revenue AgencyKPMGMain estimates 2019-2020Tax avoidanceTax evasionTedGallivanTedGallivan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1145)[Translation]This is the worst case for an amicable settlement. I cannot understand why the minister was not informed and did not oppose such a settlement.Canada Revenue AgencyKPMGMain estimates 2019-2020Tax avoidanceTax evasionTedGallivanTedGallivan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1145)[Translation]Why don't you trust the judgment?Canada Revenue AgencyKPMGMain estimates 2019-2020Tax avoidanceTax evasionTedGallivanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1145)[Translation]Is it illegal or not?WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan (Outremont, Lib.): (1145)[Translation]Thank you for your testimony.I would like to take this opportunity to ask you a question about something that is a concern for the residents of Outremont.[English] A number of individuals in my riding have mentioned that they have received text messages or emails from individuals claiming to be from the CRA, who are clearly not from the CRA, who are essentially extorting money from them, threatening criminal repercussions and/or jail in some cases. As you can imagine, many of these individuals are elderly or vulnerable people. I wonder if that is something that has come to your attention, and if there are any measures in place at the moment to help Canadians deal with this troubling matter.Canada Revenue AgencyMain estimates 2019-2020Swindles and scamsWayneEasterHon.MalpequeBobHamilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88567RachelBendayanRachel-BendayanOutremontLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BendayanRachel_Lib.jpgInterventionMs. Rachel Bendayan: (1150)[English]Thank you, Mr. Hamilton. On the topic of ramping up, you mentioned in your opening remarks that there was an increase of $110 million for measures to crack down and combat tax evasion, tax avoidance, and to enhance tax collections. Later in your statement, you mentioned an increase of $29 million to improve general tax compliance. I wonder if you could perhaps explain to the committee some of the new initiatives that are being created thanks to this new funding or some of the measures that you feel would help Canadians and your work at the CRA thanks to this funding.Audits and auditorsCanada Revenue AgencyMain estimates 2019-2020Tax avoidanceTax evasionBobHamiltonBobHamilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation] Thank you, Mr. Chair.The waiting time may be 10 or 15 minutes, but this only applies to half of the incoming calls, those who manage to get a line. For the other half, the system rejects them outright. However, I don't want to come back to this subject.I would rather go back to the KPMG case, on which I have some questions. We said that the process was not transparent and that the final result was uncertain. You did not seem convinced that the judge would rule in favour of the Canada Revenue Agency in this case.Yet, the scheme in question is considered by everyone, the general public and even experts, as one of the most flagrant examples of dubious and abusive schemes. I do not have any quotes from experts to hand at this precise moment, but I know that there have been several who have spoken out to that effect.However, you are saying today that you were not sure of the decision the judge was going to make. Given that this scheme was so abusive and so clearly out of line, could you explain your lack of certainty?Canada Revenue AgencyKPMGMain estimates 2019-2020Tax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeTedGallivan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Gallivan.TedGallivanWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation]Mr. Chair, I would not like to ask a question, but to move a motion of which I gave notice on May 31. I would like to present it at this time, in the wake of what we have heard today about these internal processes and policies that allow for out-of-court settlements. I therefore move the following: That the committee invite the Honourable Diane Lebouthillier, Minister of National Revenue, to appear before the committee to inform it on the work being done by the Canada Revenue Agency to combat abusive tax schemes and also on the policies and internal processes surrounding out-of-court settlements in tax evasion and abusive tax avoidance cases.Mr. Chair, I hope you will find this motion in order. I justify it by the fact that the committee was not able to benefit from the minister's presence today. If she had been here, we could have asked her about this case and then moved on to another item, but she is obviously trying to avoid her responsibilities. That is why I am proposing this motion, in order to shed light on internal policies and processes and to question the minister, who is responsible for this agreement that has been signed, of which she was informed. We would like to know what she thinks about it and what she has done.Canada Revenue AgencyCommittee businessCommittee witnessesMinister of National RevenueMotionsTax avoidanceTax evasionWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1225)[Translation] Mr. Chair, I would just like to add a few words to follow up on what you said yourself during the meeting about the lack of transparency. You also had an opinion on this subject. I did not indicate the number of meetings, but I think one would be sufficient to allow the minister to explain what happened in this case and what she has done to increase transparency. We have to see what she thinks is important, what you think is important, Mr. Chair, and what the committee members on this side of the table think is important.I believe it is self-evident that we will invite the minister again, given that she refused to appear before us today on the 2019-2020 main estimates. Given the latitude you're giving us, Mr. Chair, we could have asked her questions about it and she could have answered them. If she had appeared before us, I would not have had to move this motion, but she is trying to escape her responsibilities. That is why I am now introducing this motion.Committee businessWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1230)[English] Thank you for supporting my motion earlier today. I really appreciate that. It shows that our committee is doing its work. I think we can agree that we will be flexible on the date to accommodate the minister's agenda to make sure that she appears and she doesn't say, if she's not available on Tuesday and Thursday, that she is not able to appear. We need to make sure that flexibility is proposed to her ensure that she has an opportunity to appear. Committee businessWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1235)[English]Don't worry.WayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1235)[English]I vote for number three. Committee businessWayneEasterHon.MalpequeWayneEasterHon.Malpeque//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)): (0945)[English] We will now resume our meeting for our first meeting of studying Bill C-266, an act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility). Our first witness is our colleague Mr. James Bezan, the MP for Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman. Mr. Bezan, it's a pleasure to have you before the committee. The floor is yours.C-266, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (increasing parole ineligibility)Conditional releaseLife sentencesPrivate Members' BillsJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—Eastman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0955)[English]We're going to be pretty flexible about this since you're the only witness, so do what you need to do.JamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—EastmanJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—Eastman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1000)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Bezan. We'll start with questions now.Mr. MacKenzie.JamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—EastmanDaveMacKenzieOxford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1005)[English]Thank you very much.Ms. Khalid.JamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—EastmanIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1010)[English]Yes, you have a minute and a half.ColinFraserWest NovaColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1010)[English]Colin, I'm sorry, but we're out of time. I'm sure you can still get time in the next round.JamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—EastmanColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1010)[English]Randall.ColinFraserWest NovaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1020)[English]Thank you very much.We're coming back to this side. It was Mr. Boissonnault, I believe, or Mr. McKinnon. I can't remember.JamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—EastmanIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1020)[English]Mr. Boissonnault.IqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1025)[English]Thank you very much.I really appreciate Mr. Bezan's ability to come to the committee today.We look forward to finishing work on your bill and getting it back to the House.JamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—EastmanJamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—Eastman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1025)[English]Thank you so much.We're briefly going to suspend and come back in camera to continue with online hate.[Proceedings continue in camera]JamesBezanSelkirk—Interlake—Eastman//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0955)[English]I think we can find that.8560-421-64-10 Reports of the Auditor General of Canada to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Auditor General of CanadaGovernment expendituresMotionsKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos (Pontiac, Lib.): (1530)[English]Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the members.[Translation]Thank you for this opportunity to discuss what represents [technical difficulties] for my fellow Pontiac residents, but also for Canadians across the country. Whether in rural or urban areas, this is a very important issue.[English]I believe the importance of this issue is clearly demonstrated by the unanimous vote. I thank each of you individually—and also your colleagues—for that support, because I think it was a unifying vote around motion 208. When urban Canada recognizes the challenges that rural Canada faces with regard to what we now consider to be basic telecommunication services—good cellphone access, high-speed Internet—I think these are the things that bring Canada together when there's an appreciation of our challenges. I think there's an appreciation at this point in time that rural Canada needs to make up for lost time with the digital divide. For too many years, private sector telecommunications companies did not invest sufficiently in that necessary digital infrastructure. Governments at that time, in the past, weren't up to the challenge of recognizing that the market needed to be corrected. I feel fortunate, in a way, to have been able to bring this motion forward, because I feel that all I was doing was stating the obvious: that a Canadian in northern Alberta or the B.C. interior who is challenged with serious forest fires, just like a Canadian in New Brunswick, Quebec or Ontario who is dealing with floods, deserves access to the digital infrastructure that most Canadians take for granted, so as to ensure their public safety.As your committee is well aware, the motion was divided into two follow-up components, one with respect to the economic and regulatory aspects of digital infrastructure. That process in the industry committee has been moving forward well. A number of witnesses have been brought forth. The process is proceeding apace. I'm looking forward to their conclusions. I've had an opportunity to participate, and I thank that committee for enabling that participation.I'm particularly appreciative, Chair, that this committee has seen fit to move forward, even if only with a brief set of interactions on this subject matter, because Canadians across this country recognize that it is time to get to solutions on the public safety dimensions of digital infrastructure. I'm constantly attempting to channel the voices of my small-town mayors, mayors such as David Rochon, the mayor of Waltham, Quebec. Waltham is about an hour and 45 minutes away from Parliament Hill. It's a straight shot down Highway 148 once you cross the Chaudière Bridge or the Portage Bridge. You get over to Gatineau and just drive straight west down Highway 148, and you can't miss it. It's just across the way from Pembroke. In that community, they have no cellphone service. The 300-and-some souls who live there, when they're faced with flooding for the second time in three years, get extremely frustrated, and they have every right to be frustrated. I'm frustrated for them, and I'm channelling their voices as I sit before you. This is no more than me speaking on behalf of a range of small-town mayors.(1535) I know the voices of those mayors are magnified by those of so many others across this country. That's why the Federation of Canadian Municipalities supported motion 208, because they hear those mayors' voices as well. That's why the rural caucus of the Quebec Union of Municipalities supported this motion, because they hear those same voices.[Translation]It is our responsibility to address this issue directly. I am very pleased to see that since motion M-208 was introduced in the House of Commons, digital infrastructure has been a major success, thanks to Budget 2019. The investments are historic, very concrete and very targeted.The goal is to have high-speed Internet access across Canada by 2030. The target is 95% by 2025. Our government is the first to set these kinds of targets and invest these amounts. In the past, we were talking about a few hundred million dollars, but now we are talking about billions of dollars. The issue is recognized. For a government, this recognition comes first and foremost through its budget. Our government has recognized this. I really appreciate the actions of our Liberal government. With respect to wireless and cellular communications in the context of public safety, there is agreement that, in any emergency situation, a cellular phone is required. It is very useful for managing personal emergencies, but it is also very useful for public servants, mayors, councillors who are in the field and want to help their fellow citizens. These people need access to a reliable cellular network to be able to connect with and help their fellow citizens.(1540)[English]I see that I'm being given the two-minute warning. I will conclude in advance of that simply by saying that I think it's important for us not to descend into rhetoric on this topic. Canadians deserve better than that. I read today's opposition day motion. With no disrespect intended, it didn't spend any time recognizing what our government has done but spent so much time focusing on the problems without getting to the solutions. In the Pontiac, people want solutions. They want to know how they're going to get their cellphone service, and soon. They want their high-speed Internet hookup yesterday, not two years from now. I know that every rural member of Parliament—Conservative, NDP, Liberal and otherwise—is working very hard in their own way to make sure that happens. I am as well. Right now I appreciate this opportunity to focus our attention very specifically on the public safety dimensions. I also want to say a thank you to our local and national media, who have taken on this issue and are recognizing that in an era of climate change and extreme weather, we're going to need our cellphones more and more; we're going to need this digital infrastructure more and more, to ensure Canadians' safety and security.Thank you, Mr. Chair.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (1540)[English]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Amos, when you brought forward M-208, it had two aspects to it. One was for the industry committee to study these services, and two, for SECU to study the public safety aspect of it. Would you like to expand a bit on how you saw the split committee approach to this.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1540)[English] My feeling was that there are most certainly economic dimensions to this issue. There are questions around competition. There are questions around the nature of a return on investment that can and cannot be made in rural Canada. These are real considerations that I think merit serious consideration. The independent regulator, the CRTC, has distinct responsibilities as established under the Telecommunications Act. Those obligations provide it, in many aspects, with a fair amount of latitude to achieve the public interest objectives of the Telecommunications Act.I felt that those issues, both regulatory and economic, which ultimately help to frame how we will get to digital infrastructure access for rural Canada, are not the same issues necessarily, or they're not entirely the same, as the public safety issues. I felt that if the study were to be done by one committee on its own, public safety in particular might end up getting short shrift. I felt that would be inappropriate. I felt that one of the most important arguments in favour of making the massive investments that are necessary, and that our government is stepping forward to make, would be on the basis of public safety considerations.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1540)[English]Fair enough. In terms of public safety considerations, both your riding and mine have experienced significant problems with dispatching emergency services at a time of emergency. You've described it at great length in the past. When tornadoes hit your riding, when floods hit your riding and my riding, emergency services have to come to city hall, coordinate, and go back out in the field. Can you speak to that? Is that the basis of the focus?Emergency preparednessM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1545)[English]I think for the average Canadian who's thinking about how their family in a certain small town is dealing with an emergency related to extreme weather, it's plain to see that when a local official needs to spend an extra 20 to 40 minutes driving from a particular location on the ground—during a fire or a flood or a tornado or otherwise—back to town hall in order to make the necessary phone calls, it's inefficient. It brings about unnecessary delays in providing proper emergency response.Emergency preparednessM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1545)[English]In the same vein, a lot of citizens have trouble reaching 911 because there's no service available to do so. Phone lines are no longer up. If you're in a field or in the country—our ridings have recreational areas that are tens of thousands of kilometres—there is no means for people to reach emergency services. Would you find that to be true?Emergency servicesM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1545)[English]In fact, there are areas in the riding of Pontiac where a fixed wireline service is not available, or circumstances where the fixed wireline service, due to a falling tree or otherwise, has been cut off. Yes, it does create a public safety issue, because many, many seniors in my riding don't have a cellphone. Even if they wanted one, they wouldn't have access to the cellphone service.Absolutely there are issues, and I think it's important to address these in their totality, but to my mind, the conversation is headed mostly to the access to cellular. That's how people will most often solve the predicament they may find themselves in. I can't tell you the number of times I've had constituents come to me to say, “My car broke down. I was between location X and location Y. There was no cellphone service. I thought I was going to die.” That is a run-of-the-mill conversation in the Pontiac. In this day and age, I think we have a mature enough and wealthy enough society to address these issues if we focus on them.Emergency servicesM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1545)[English]To your point, though, there's been a lot of confusion in the public about what motion 208 is about, because it talks about “wireless” without being too specific. In your view, this is about cellphone service, and not about broadband Internet to the same extent. This is about making sure that we can reach emergency services, that emergency services can reach each other, and that the cellphone signal we need on our back roads is available to us.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1545)[English] That's correct. My greatest concern was the cellphone aspect. In M-208, where I refer to wireless, the intention is to mean cellphone, meaning mobile wireless. M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1545)[English]When I was younger, we had cellphone service in the Laurentians through analog. When we switched to digital, we lost a lot of that service. Did you have the same experience?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1545)[English]That's going back a ways. M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1545)[English]We had a cellphone in the car in 1985, and it was worth as much as the car, but it worked, which is not the case today. In most of my area, there is no signal, and it's becoming a very serious problem for us. I'm very happy to encourage this, and I'm glad you brought it forward. I'm running out of time here. Where have the market forces been? We're always hearing from some people that market forces can fix everything. Why have market forces not solved these problems for us?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1545)[English]Since the advent of the Internet as a mainstream technology and wireless mobile coming in to a greater extent, the decision in the early 1990s to leave the development of this infrastructure to the private sector and not to nationalize it has had consequences. Where the return on investment for the private sector is insufficient in a large area where the density of population is low, it's clear that's going to bring about a particular result. We see it all across rural Canada: patchiness, portions where there's coverage, and portions where there's not. That unreliability of coverage has serious impacts, both on the public security side but also on the economic development side. Nowadays, prospective homebuyers in your riding, as well as mine and so many others, will make decisions premised on a full range of factors, including whether there is good Internet and cellphone coverage. It has serious ramifications both on a public safety and an economic and sustainable growth basis. I think we need to address those. M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus (Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, CPC): (1550)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Amos, thank you for being here.We also consider it important to establish a better connectivity system in Canada. This is a major problem for many regions, particularly in rural areas. I am glad a Liberal member is concerned about rural areas. The receptivity was not the same when we did a study on another subject. This current receptivity will please my colleagues who live in very remote rural areas and who are facing the same problem.You must have met with the Canadian Communication Systems Alliance, which represents telephone companies and Internet service providers in the regions. Every year, they come to us and remind us that they have to use Bell Canada or Telus towers to transmit their signals and that this is a problem. In the end, it is always about revenues, complications and agreements.Has this factor been assessed in order to facilitate things for those companies that are already in place?Canadian Communication Systems AllianceM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1550)[Translation]Thank you for the question.In fact, the executive director of the CCSA, Mr. Jay Thomson, is a Pontiac citizen. I met him several times.This question has been important for some years now. All regulation and competition between large and smaller companies that would like to enter the market remains a challenge. Indeed, large companies have made significant investments and want to ensure their performance. Smaller players, on the other hand, have the right to access these infrastructures, under the Telecommunications Act, and want to use them. Ensuring competition and access as objectives in the act remains a challenge for the CRTC.Canadian Communication Systems AllianceM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1550)[Translation] If we start at the beginning, the motion raises important questions. I don't know anything about your meetings with the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology, but have you ever considered the possibility of deregulating or regulating the sector otherwise? If companies are already established across the country and are just waiting for the opportunity to connect, this may be the first effort to make before going any further and saying that the government should invest hundreds of millions of dollars.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1550)[Translation]There are several aspects to be assessed, starting with the success of the Telecommunications Act in achieving its objectives of competition and access, among others. There is also a need to assess the investments and tax incentives put in place in this area by successive federal governments. It would be worthwhile to focus on these two elements in all cases. I would like to mention, however, that the investments that were made by the previous Conservative government—your government—in successive budgets were not enough to solve the problem. M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1550)[Translation]Fine.With regard to public safety, have you assessed the current situation in Canada? Police and ambulance services already have autonomous communication systems and can therefore remain in contact during an emergency. Have you taken this into account? I believe your goal is to allow all citizens to use their phones anywhere. However, when it comes to public safety, do you know if we are well equipped?Emergency preparednessM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1555)[Translation]In general, these emergency services are well equipped, but there are still gaps. I had discussions again this year with the Gracefield Fire Department, which was having communication difficulties. However, when I spoke to the Canadian Armed Forces in the aftermath of the 2019 floods, they told me that their system was very functional.What we are seeing more and more in the age of digital infrastructure, social media and technology is that anyone can help anyone. Public safety is increasingly managed by individuals and their neighbours, in collaboration with public services. It is therefore essential that everyone have access to a cellular signal.Emergency preparednessM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1555)[Translation]Have you done any research on satellite communications? The satellite phone already exists, although its use is very expensive. Have any companies already suggested ways to reduce these user costs and focus on satellite calls in some areas where 3G or LTE networks are not available? Has this possibility already been evaluated?Communication satellite industryM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1555)[Translation]I invite the Parliamentary Secretary, Mr. Serré, to fill any gaps I may have in my answer.Our investments in satellite communications in Budget 2019 are very significant and this approach could prove to be one of the best solutions for remote and other communities that are hard to reach using fibre optics or cellular towers.In terms of costs and whether this is the best way to cover the whole country, I am not an expert in this field. That is why I initiated this discussion both in the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology and in this committee. I can tell you that Telesat Canada appeared before the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology last week and its testimony was greatly appreciated. Communication satellite industryM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesPierrePaul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71454PierrePaul-HusPierre-Paul-HusCharlesbourg—Haute-Saint-CharlesConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/PaulHusPierre_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Paul-Hus: (1555)[Translation]Thank you.WilliamAmosPontiacJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé (Beloeil—Chambly, NDP): (1555)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.Mr. Amos, thank you for being here and for bringing this motion forward.So long as we're talking about the content of different motions, I'd like to know something, because I'm intrigued. Why was a study commissioned at the outset? I listened to the discussions with Mr. Graham and Mr. Paul-Hus. For your part, you talked about the work of mayors, councillors or political leaders in your community. So there seems to be a clear consensus on the problem.Rather than asking for further study by a parliamentary committee, why not introduce a motion or bill requiring the government to make changes and take action on this issue? Such a motion would have identified the problem and the House would have asked the government to do something about it. This would have had more impact, especially since there are only about ten days left in the current parliamentary session. M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1555)[Translation]First, the motion was introduced in November 2018, before the 2019 budget. The Connect to Innovate program, the largest rural Internet investment program in Canadian history, was already in place. The motion and other political factors have put very constructive pressure on our government and have led to several new investments. As I mentioned, it plans to invest $1.7 billion in the Universal Broadband Fund, and make other investments in satellite technology and spectrum-related public policy measures. A whole series of measures have been taken. Given the slowness of the parliamentary process—Broadband FundBroadband Internet servicesConnect to InnovateM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1600)[Translation]Allow me to interrupt you.Regarding the municipal actors in our ridings, I regularly speak with Mr. Jacques Ladouceur, who is the mayor of Richelieu as well as the reeve of the Rouville RCM. If there is not much traffic, it will take you 35 or 40 minutes to get from Richelieu to Montreal. It's not very far away. It is a constituency with rural areas, but it is not necessarily a rural constituency.M. Ladouceur told me that you can throw all the money you want out the window, but—you recognize this in part in your motion—the CRTC relies on certain rules to assess the quality of the Internet connection. I am not an expert in this field and I rely, as we all do, on local actors who know about it. The CRTC measures the quality of the Internet connection in a certain way. If there is a place on the map where there is a certain band quality, the area is not considered a priority. Thirty-five minutes from Montreal, it is conceivable that we could find a house on one range that has a good quality band, but this is not the case for the other houses, and all of them are penalized.I thank the minister for demonstrating an openness to speak to municipal officials in my riding. The mayors in my riding recognize the problem and I have no doubt that it is the same in yours.Why limit ourselves to saying that the government has made investments and that we will look into the matter? Why didn't you approach this more forcefully? Money is all well and good, but you need something else. You and the elected municipal officials in your riding have identified the problem. Why don't you send a message to the House that something more needs to be done, such as changing the CRTC rules?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1600)[Translation] I believe that the process leading to these changes—whether legislative, regulatory or fiscal—has begun. The Telecommunications Act is being reformed. I am sure that this will be the subject of important discussions during this election period and following the election. This is the right time to present concrete solutions.Yes, we can go directly to the CRTC, and that's what we did last week. Commission representatives appeared before the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology to discuss regulatory issues and its investments. Indeed, the CRTC has a $750 million fund that comes solely from telecommunications companies and not directly from taxpayers. All these discussions are taking place right now, but there is no easy solution. That is the issue. That is why I asked for these two studies. We cannot take certain things for granted. As a voter, I would like a political party to propose not one solution, but a range of solutions, whether it involves the spectrum, the tax aspect, investments or regulation.Do we now have all the solutions to these problems? I don't think so. That is why I am opening the discussion. I believe in the potential of 338 members of Parliament who care about rural Canada.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryMatthewDubéBeloeil—ChamblyMatthewDubéBeloeil—Chambly//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71368MatthewDubéMatthew-DubéBeloeil—ChamblyNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DubéMatthew_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Matthew Dubé: (1600)[Translation]My last question is similar to the one Mr. Graham asked earlier. Two studies in tandem, we don't often see that. As for public safety, I appreciate that you don't want it to be an afterthought. That being said, are there any specific actors we should talk to? We are talking about floods, and, in particular, various equipment. What could the committee focus on to be useful in this regard? The preamble largely deals with economic and regulatory aspects, but what do you see for us? Emergency preparednessM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWilliamAmosPontiacJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1605)[Translation]I am thinking here of firefighters' associations, police departments, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and other municipal groups, as well as mayors of small communities across Canada. We must listen to Canadians. To know their stories and experiences is to know the reality. I find that Parliament sometimes lacks representation from small communities. I am also thinking of the security services across the country. These were some suggestions.Emergency preparednessM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard (Montarville, Lib.): (1605)[Translation]Mr. Amos, you said that your fellow citizens were eager to see the establishment of a cellular telephony infrastructure. We can understand them.How realistic are your fellow citizens about how long it will take to set up this system? This will not happen in a day or a week. M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1605)[Translation]Honestly, this is the most difficult aspect of our work and, in this case, of mine. I know that by advocating for digital infrastructure solutions, I am open to criticism. That's for sure. People want solutions, but would have wanted them yesterday. It is not in two or three months and even less in two or three years that they want an Internet connection. They would have wanted it yesterday, and rightly so. It will be very difficult for me to get my electorate to fully consider how long it will take. However, we must start at the beginning and address this problem. For this reason, I am very pleased with the investments our government is making. With more than $5 billion over a decade, this is a serious investment.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1605)[Translation]Beyond the need, there is also the question of social acceptability. People want to have the infrastructure as soon as possible, but suffer from the "not in my backyard" syndrome.I'll give you an example. I live 25 minutes from Montreal, between Montreal and my colleague Mr. Dubé's riding. Past the mountain, where I live, in what is an urban suburb, the cellular signal is weak or non-existent. So people who come to my house can't use their cell phones. Steps have been taken to address this very real problem, and cell phone towers will be erected in my riding and in Mr. Dubé's riding. Obviously, there will always be cases where the tower will not be in the right place, but these towers are needed. People want solutions, but they don't want the equipment they require.What is the perception of people in your riding? M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1605)[Translation]This kind of debate will always be ongoing. In rural areas, the discussion may be less difficult because the vast majority of my fellow citizens are in favour of these towers and accept this kind of compromise.This question is not a new one. This is a concern that both the CRTC and Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada have been trying to manage for years. The whole dynamic of "not in my backyard" is important and you have to manage these aspects.The vast majority of public safety concerns arising from the lack of mobile phone services are raised in small communities far from large urban centres. Therefore, the question of not wanting a tower in your backyard is less relevant. This concern certainly remains, but it is less important.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1610)[Translation]When it comes to infrastructure planning, setting the right priorities is key. In terms of economic drivers, cell phone and Internet service is a priority. It enables economic growth. In fact, it's a must-have. In order to do business, people need a cell phone and Internet access, without which, success is merely wishful thinking. This priority benefits the community as a whole.We are talking about public safety, however, and the issue is whether the infrastructure to address the social, business and economic concerns raised should include bandwidth for the exclusive use of first responders in the event of a disaster, such as in the north. I remember what happened with the Fort McMurray fires. Police and firefighters weren't using the same bandwidth to communicate with one another, and, in some cases, they weren't able to communicate at all. In situations like that, having dedicated lines and matching infrastructure is necessary.How, then, should requirements be prioritized when implementing the infrastructure?Emergency preparednessM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1610)[Translation]That's a great question, and it's precisely why I'd like the committee to conduct a detailed study. I can tell you how I think the available spectrum should be divvied up between emergency responders and the public, but, as the member for Pontiac, I'm no expert. Although very pertinent, it's not a question I'm qualified to answer.Emergency preparednessM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationMichelPicardMontarvilleMichelPicardMontarville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1610)[Translation]Do we have the means, the capacity and the authority to make companies invest in expanding their networks? Eventually, it comes down to the return on investment. In all likelihood, companies haven't set up infrastructure in rural areas because the critical mass needed to generate a return on investment isn't there.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1610)[Translation]Through the CRTC, the government requires telecommunications companies to invest in digital infrastructure. Two years ago, the government announced $750 million in funding over five years for that purpose, and the CRTC began receiving the first applications a week ago. The funding comes directly from the telecommunications companies.There's a central question that needs answering, and I certainly hope the CRTC gives it some thought. Is $750 million over five years sufficient? Should it be more? The fund was announced in December 2016. Following the 2019 budget, investments in the area have gone up considerably.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationMichelPicardMontarvilleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1615)[English]Maybe I'll start with the beginning of your question. You represent a riding of 30,000 square kilometres. Pontiac is 77,000 square kilometres. We're talking about big ridings here with great needs. All of our communities across rural Canada are playing catch-up. That is the simple reality. I'm not saying this to be partisan, but it is a simple fact that the previous Harper administration did not invest sufficiently in this, and that put us behind the eight ball.We're now coming up with government programs that put carrots in front of telecommunications companies, that create incentives to invest more; and the connect to innovate program has had a number of major successes. The funding is rolling out presently, but I think there's a recognition that we need to do so much more because of situations like the one you're pointing out. I'm sure there is more than $200,000 worth of Internet infrastructure needs in your region, and we need to get to that point. Budget 2019 is really going to help us get there. With respect to the Infrastructure Bank, the budget was quite clear that it would be contemplated as a source of financing. I'm looking forward to Minister Bernadette Jordan, our Minister of Rural Economic Development, coming forward with a plan for a rural economic development strategy, and to her collaboration with our Minister of Infrastructure, François-Philippe Champagne, to bring forth a plan to show us how more capital can be brought to bear, because at the end of the day, it is going to be about incentivizing private sector companies or—Connect to InnovateM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—Warner//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1615)[English]I think it's part of the solution, but I don't think it's the whole solution, because there are going to circumstances where the private sector determines that it doesn't want to invest in particular corners and there are going to be little pockets that are left alone. We have to enable regional governments or non-profits to work together to fill those gaps. That's why this is going to take time, because there's going to be a process in which companies evaluate where they want to take advantage of these incentives and to invest, and then we're going to be doing gap analysis, and then going back in and doing more work. I think this is going to be an iterative process.M-208Private Members' MotionsPublic-private partnershipsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryGlenMotzMedicine Hat—Cardston—WarnerJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1615)[English]I don't have as many as normal.RubySahotaBrampton NorthJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1615)[English]Thank you.(1620)[Translation]Mr. Amos, one of the bases of Quebec's forest fire protection agency—the Société de protection des forêts contre le feu, or SOPFEU—is located in your riding, in Maniwaki. Last weekend, an event was held for aviation enthusiasts, Rendez-vous aérien. It was no doubt great fun. I wish I could've been there.The SOPFEU has a low-frequency radio service across all of Quebec. It works throughout southern Quebec, at 55° or 56° north latitude. The cell phone service is entirely high-frequency, beginning at 400 MHz and even higher.Since you've been in Parliament, have any telecommunications companies come to you with creative solutions outside the box? The focus is always on 5G and 24 GHz. You and I will agree that 24 GHz service would be tough to implement. Have any companies ever approached you with creative solutions?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1620)[Translation]I must admit I'm no expert. I'm not aware of any companies providing solutions like that. I agree with what you said and with the premise of your question.Yesterday, I had a chance to meet some people from the SOPFEU. They put on the Rendez-vous aérien event in Maniwaki, which I was delighted to attend. In the Gatineau valley, these people are heralded as heroes. They are Canadian heroes to us. I have no doubt they'll be present in Alberta and British Columbia this summer, and certainly in Quebec.Coming back to your question, I wonder what innovative solutions would make it possible to access the various bands of the spectrum. I don't know the answer. It goes back to what Mr. Dubé said about the reason for undertaking a study like this. It can't be assumed that politicians will have the answers to technical questions. We need engineers and entrepreneurs to come up with different options so that, together, we can recommend the most promising and cost-effective solution.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1620)[Translation]You and Mr. Dubé were discussing potential witnesses earlier. You mentioned firefighters associations as well as the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, among others.Should we be looking to telecommunications companies for creative solutions? I'm talking about non-traditional players, outside the Bells and Teluses. Should we study the whole issue of spectrum, as you mentioned, to figure out whether the current system is meeting regional needs?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1620)[Translation]Absolutely. Those are all key questions.Yes, the telecommunications sector is home to a range of minor players. In the Pontiac, for instance, PioneerWireless holds tremendous potential, but it can be harder for small companies to access government programs. They no doubt have some ideas to suggest. I would be grateful to the committee if it were to examine the way telecommunications companies, big and small, view public safety and their role in the solutions process.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1620)[Translation]With this Parliament drawing to a close, we are running out of time. It'll basically be over next week.If you could tell the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security of the 43rd Parliament something, what would it be?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1620)[Translation]I would start by stressing how important the issue is. Then, I would point out the need for a non-partisan approach given that there is unanimous agreement on the problem. In Canada, we do better when we tackle major issues in a non-partisan way. This issue is highly complex. It's way too easy to point fingers, assign blame and get caught up in politics. That's not what the constituents in my riding or rural Canadians, in general, need. Finally, I think it would be very helpful for the committee to recommend that the next Parliament revisit the issue. That would signal the possibility of the next Parliament taking up the issue even though we may not have time to examine it in depth.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1625)[English] Thank you for your question, and I would like to thank you also for being such a great colleague. We've worked together on the environment committee, and during our trip out west we had the pleasure of enjoying a little portion of your very special and very beautiful riding. I won't forget that. You've asked about the role of the provincial governments and what my experience has been on that front as we try to amass the funding required to get to a multi-billion dollar solution. I think you're right. I've heard different numbers; I've heard the $15 billion figure bandied about. Regardless of that, I think one of the things that has changed since our election in 2015 is a willingness of the provinces to engage in a more serious fashion with more serious provincial investments. I can speak for the situation in Quebec, where the connect to innovate program was matched by provincial funds. In the Pontiac, I've had the opportunity to announce over $20 million in new high-speed Internet funding. All of the federal contributions were matched by provincial contributions. I'd say roughly about a bit north of 50% of the total of that $20 million was federal and provincial investments. I think we're turning a bit of a corner in the sense that despite the fact that the jurisdiction around telecommunications is clearly understood to be federal, there's a recognition that the fiscal responsibility is simply too large for one level of government to bear. Federal-provincial-territorial relationsM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJimEglinskiYellowheadJimEglinskiYellowhead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1630)[English]I believe it was at least that. It may even have invested a little more. Perhaps Mr. Graham would have exact figures by memory. I don't have those by memory, but I'm sure I could come back with them.Connect to InnovateFederal-provincial-territorial relationsM-208Private Members' MotionsProvince of QuebecRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJimEglinskiYellowheadJimEglinskiYellowhead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1630)[English]Absolutely. In fact, the riding of Pontiac has three regional municipal governments, each with roughly 15 municipalities within them. Two of those regional municipal governments partnered together and brought a submission forward and submitted it to the connect to innovate program. In the end, their project wasn't the one that was chosen, but it does go to show that this is where the projects are going to be coming from, not just from the major telecommunications companies but also from municipal governments working with small service providers, working with consultants who are advising them. This is one of the challenges that we're looking to help them with. Connect to InnovateFederal-provincial-territorial relationsM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJimEglinskiYellowheadJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[English]I'll take it. Yes.[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.In the past, private companies didn't invest in digital infrastructure without some type of federal, provincial or other source of funding. You just said that Quebec funded a large chunk of the Internet service within its borders. I believe it was much more than 50% of the federal and provincial funding that came from Quebec. The province made a tremendous contribution.What can be done to get around companies' refusal to invest before they receive government funding? Is the answer to build digital infrastructure that is entirely publicly owned?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1630)[Translation]Some companies would certainly argue that nationalizing the infrastructure is the way to go. I don't agree because that would be too costly for taxpayers. Taxpayers would have a very hard time covering the billions upon billions that have already been invested. However, the goal is definitely to prevent situations where investments aren't made unless government funding has been granted.That said, we all realize how important the issue is. As I said in response to Mr. Eglinski's question, some competition is already happening. Municipal and regional governments, often in partnership with small companies, are competing with the major telecommunications players. I think it's important to ensure the competition is balanced when it comes to regional governments, small players and major companies. Of course, they are all looking for public money, whether it comes from the federal government, the CRTC, the province or some other source.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1630)[Translation]Under the connect to innovate program, a company receiving federal funding has to provide public access to the system. Might a similar requirement be applied to cell phone service, if the federal or provincial government helped to build towers and the system were more accessible than required by the CRTC? Conversely, would that be even more detrimental to investment?Telecommunications companies such as Bell, Rogers and Telus have said setting up towers isn't worthwhile because a company that doesn't have a tower jumps onto their network right away.What is the right balance between open access and a monopoly on investment?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacWilliamAmosPontiac//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1630)[Translation]That's a highly complex issue that the CRTC is looking into. As a politician and someone who is by no means an expert, I'm hesitant to say how the commission should go about finding that balance. Technical and economic considerations are equally important in coming up with the answer. A balance is clearly needed. Canadians benefit from greater competition, but, at the same time, companies need incentives to invest in fixed infrastructure, in other words, towers and fibre optics.Our government is trying to find that balance with a directive that encourages companies to lower prices. It is asking the CRTC to move in that direction, but it has to provide incentives, whether through the connect to innovate program or other initiatives. Incentives are needed to give the private sector a reason to invest capital in infrastructure.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1635)[English]Well, I think you might start by speaking to your social media adviser. He could eliminate your accounts, and that would cause a degree of disappearance.No, in the Pontiac, you don't disappear. In fact, there are many, many areas of the riding of Pontiac that are well covered. In fact, Pontiac, as a riding, starts with the northern suburbs of Gatineau, where there is 100% coverage, as one would expect in any major city in Canada, but as soon as you go 20 minutes outside of Gatineau, that's not—Digital identityM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1635)[English]You can virtually disappear, but not within 20 minutes. You'd have to go a bit farther than that. You could—Digital identityM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1635)[English]Just so I can be sure that I've understood the question clearly, are you asking if there's a public interest in maintaining digital obscurity to be set aside from the predominant digital culture that we should be protecting?The Chair: Yes.Mr. William Amos: If there is one, they're not knocking at my doors regularly in the Pontiac—Some hon. members: Oh, oh!Mr. William Amos: —and the mayors and municipal councillors who represent them are not knocking on my door requesting that assistance. It is certainly quite possible in my riding to live off the grid with a reclusive lifestyle, to enjoy the benefits of the national capital and have access to an international airport and a modern transportation system and all of the amenities of urban life on a day-to-day basis and still live in the woods.Digital identityM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1635)[English]Actually, there are certain individuals who have raised health concerns about cell tower frequencies. That issue is still the subject of scientific inquiry, and I think that should continue. It's important that we have that kind of research being done. They would be in the minority, the very small minority. M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1640)[English]My sense is that there are many companies that offer the technologies that Huawei offers, such as Nokia and Ericsson, to name just a couple. The national security considerations in relation to Huawei are being undertaken by our government at the highest levels. I have every faith that it will be done appropriately. I trust that process. No matter what transpires on that ledger, we will have access in Canada to the necessary 5G technologies to build out digital infrastructure for all of rural Canada. It's just a question of which company would provide those technologies and services.CompetitionHuawei Technologies Co., Ltd.M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—GuildwoodJohnMcKayHon.Scarborough—Guildwood//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin (Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, CPC): (1545)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.It isn't a red card like in soccer. Our chair is very flexible.Madam Commissioner, it is with considerable emotion that I address you today. This is probably the last time we'll have the opportunity to work with you as commissioner. In your presentation, you said that you hope parliamentarians and Canadians will find these reports and recommendations useful and worthy of follow-up, not and in the future.We met at the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. You have witnessed my outbursts about the fact that accountability, reporting, follow-up and implementation of recommendations are not automatic. I think we need to develop a system to make parliamentarians, public servants and all those involved in the decisions and suggestions you submit to us accountable. I commit before you and everyone else to do this follow-up if I'm still here for the 43rd Parliament. It's been a pleasure to work with you.I'll now move on to the report on aquatic invasive species. In paragraph 1.44, you talk a little about what has been done since 2015. You mention the Aquatic Invasive Species Regulations, which came into force in 2015. In that paragraph, you state that, “By 2018, [Fisheries and Oceans Canada] had still not arrived at a process for choosing species to include when the Regulations are next revised.”Since my time is limited, I'll jump right to the end of paragraph 1.46, which reads:At the time of our audit, the Department had developed draft work plans for its Aquatic Invasive Species National Core Program but had not finalized strategic directions for the program to guide its planning and resource allocation.Madam Commissioner, I have the privilege of representing the riding of Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier. There are many lakes and invasive species. We have to act now. There was a settlement in 2015, but it is 2019 and almost nothing has been done.I am addressing you, Madam Commissioner, but also the representatives of other departments who may want to round out your answer.What must be implemented now to reduce the invasion of these species? Installing a cleaning station at the entrance and exit of a lake limits proliferation, but there are other things you can do as well. Can you give us some suggestions for a solution so that we can solve the problem in the next few years?8560-421-521-07 Reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable DevelopmentDepartment of Fisheries and OceansHabitat conservationInvasive speciesJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityJulieGelfand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1545)[Translation]As always.JulieGelfandJulieGelfand//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1545)[Translation]Mr. Winfield, you have the floor.JulieGelfandNicholasWinfield//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1550)[Translation]Excuse me, Mr. Winfield, but I don't have much time left. Thank you for your answer, but I'm not necessarily satisfied. I think you shouldn't have to wait until the Commissioner's audit to do a self-assessment. You should have done it beforehand.My next question is for the people from the Department of the Environment.I'd like to know who's responsible for the Tata Steel dump in Quebec. There's red water there. The news showed a bear drinking there.Is it Quebec's responsibility or Canada's? It is a joint responsibility? I think that place is polluted.8560-421-521-07 Reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable DevelopmentFederal-provincial-territorial relationsPollutionNicholasWinfieldJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley City//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My question is for the representative for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.You mentioned to my colleague Darren Fisher that you had the authority and tools needed to meet the needs. You also stated earlier that you received $43.8 million in 2017 to establish a team responsible for aquatic invasive species. That's what I understood from your remarks.The problem concerns the distribution of government responsibilities. Various departments report that they need additional funding to add to their workload, such as priority processing of aquatic invasive species, because the resources they have at their disposal are not sufficient. However, it must be understood that these phenomena are constantly evolving. I think our departments and our government should be able to adapt to the situation in a timely manner. Twenty years ago, the phenomenon of aquatic invasive species already existed, but to a lesser extent. Today, however, these species have become more invasive, and action is a priority.I was in the private sector before I became a member of Parliament in 2015, and there may be things I don't understand. However, in my opinion, if we are faced with a priority file, we must leave aside a less pressing element that has already been put on track and reassign staff to the priority file. My question is simple: are aquatic invasive species currently a priority? My reading of the report tabled by the Commissioner does not give me that impression.8560-421-521-07 Reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable DevelopmentHabitat conservationInvasive speciesJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley CityNicholasWinfield//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Was it the $43.8 million that made this file a priority? Have you reassigned work teams or have you simply added the new funds to your budget? Do you have the opportunity in the department to reassign teams or modules to one priority file over another?8560-421-521-07 Reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable DevelopmentHabitat conservationInvasive speciesNicholasWinfieldNicholasWinfield//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Paragraph 1.52 of the report states that “By 2018, [Fisheries and Oceans Canada] had still not arrived at a process for choosing species to include when the Regulations are next revisited.”You tell me that you have reacted on both levels: you have reassigned teams to this file, and you have added $43.8 million to your budget. A year and a half later, however, I understand that you are not yet operational. Is that correct?8560-421-521-07 Reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable DevelopmentHabitat conservationInvasive speciesNicholasWinfieldNicholasWinfield//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Which means that—8560-421-521-07 Reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable DevelopmentHabitat conservationInvasive speciesNicholasWinfieldNicholasWinfield//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]It evolves; that's what I understood from it.8560-421-521-07 Reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable DevelopmentHabitat conservationInvasive speciesNicholasWinfieldNicholasWinfield//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1620)[Translation]Okay. I'm only half satisfied with that, but I understand your answer.I'll continue with the third report, which concerns tax subsidies on fossil fuels. Again, I have an existential question. I haven't been an MP for long, which allows me to keep my faith and trust since I'm an eternal optimist.When it comes to the international standards that Canada signed onto, why not focus on effective subsidies rather than ineffective ones? I propose reversing the concept and focusing our efforts on effective subsidies, which could be simple. This would also immediately eliminate inefficient subsidies. What do you think of that? What I'm proposing is existential and very simplistic, but it may be more effective than we think.Would one of you like to try to answer my question?8560-421-521-07 Reports of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons (Spring 2019)Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable DevelopmentGovernment assistanceOil and gasNicholasWinfieldAndrewMarsland//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89407JoëlGodinJoël-GodinPortneuf—Jacques-CartierConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GodinJoël_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Joël Godin: (1625)[Translation]I just saw the red card. I had another question, but my time is up.Thank you very much.AndrewMarslandJohnAldagCloverdale—Langley City//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/23915GuyCaronGuy-CaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaronGuy_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Guy Caron (Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, NDP): (1345)[Translation]Good afternoon. Thank you very much for these very powerful presentations.I think the committee has already demonstrated that it is very concerned about the human rights situation in Russia and elsewhere.I would like to tackle an aspect that has not yet been addressed. I don't know whether Mr. Kara-Murza or Ms. Arno is in the best position to answer. It's about the rights of LGBTQ people.We know the situation in Chechnya, which experienced a wave of repression, arrests, abductions, murders and torture in 2017. In 2019, there was a new wave that seems to have attracted little attention despite everything, but which still exists.First, is Russia simply turning a blind eye to those acts, events and tragedies in Chechnya, or is it not in a position to do something about it?Second, what is the human rights situation of the LGBTQ community in the rest of Russia? Are you seeing the same type of repression?Civil and human rightsRussiaSexual minoritiesMichaelLevittYork CentreNataliaArno//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/23915GuyCaronGuy-CaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaronGuy_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Guy Caron: (1345)[Translation]Do you want to add anything, Mr. Kara-Murza?NataliaArnoVladimirKara-Murza//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/23915GuyCaronGuy-CaronRimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les BasquesNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/CaronGuy_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Guy Caron: (1350)[Translation]Thank you very much.I now have a quick question for Mr. Cotler.We know about the violated rights of the LGBTQ community. How would you rate Canada's response to this specific issue?In particular, have you seen any movement in terms of receiving refugees? I imagine that the persecution they are facing must prompt many members of this community to move abroad to protect themselves.Civil and human rightsRefugeesRussiaSexual minoritiesVladimirKara-MurzaIrwinCotlerHon.//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice (Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, NDP): (1635)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I thank everyone for being here today for this study and the important questions it raises. We live in a world where artificial intelligence will take up more and more space. It will be given more responsibilities. It will make increasingly complex decisions because its algorithms will be able to process countless amounts of data at a speed faster than any human brain.I want to put my first questions to Mr. Leduc and Mr. Mittelstadt, and they concern the ethics of artificial intelligence.An algorithm or supercomputer is in itself incapable of displaying discrimination or bias. On the other hand, the human being who programs the algorithms is capable of doing so at different stages: during data collection, during processing, or during the preparation of questions the algorithm will try to answer.In your opinion, how, at these different stages, can we avoid these normal human prejudices, which could lead to discriminatory results? Which one of you two wants to dive into this easy question?AlgorithmsArtificial intelligenceDiscriminationEthics and ethical issuesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesAndréLeduc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1635)[Translation]Fine.Mr. Mittelstadt, did you want to speak?AndréLeducBrentMittelstadt//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1635)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Leduc, it's your turn.BrentMittelstadtAndréLeduc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1640)[Translation]I have a supplementary question, along the same lines. It is addressed to all of you.Artificial intelligence algorithms will make decisions that will have an impact on people's lives. They will be used for facial recognition, identification, police investigations, probably, and credit investigations. They will be able to guide decisions regarding the granting of a mortgage or a loan to a business, or hiring decisions. These algorithms will be asked to make decisions that can be considered fair and equitable.Since the very principle of what is fair and equitable changes with history, culture and ideology, how can we ensure that we get fair and equitable decisions?AlgorithmsArtificial intelligenceDiscriminationEthics and ethical issuesAndréLeducBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1640)[Translation]Perhaps Mr. Mittelstadt would like to respond.BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBrentMittelstadt//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58775AlexandreBoulericeAlexandre-BoulericeRosemont—La Petite-PatrieNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BoulericeAlexandre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Alexandre Boulerice: (1640)[Translation]Thank you.Mr. Tang, did you want to speak, briefly?BrentMittelstadtAnTang//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde (Lévis—Lotbinière, CPC): (1650)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.There is no doubt that artificial intelligence will play a major role in the global economy. However, I have the impression that funding, which comes mainly from the private sector and to a lesser extent from the public sector, is not necessarily intended to ensure the well-being of humanity.Can we know what proportion of artificial intelligence budgets is allocated to military activities and what proportion goes to health?I think that, in the health field, this will help everyone. On the other hand, in the military field, we will create super powerful weapons and hope never to use them. These funds might have been more useful to humanity if they had been invested in health. There is no doubt that companies are looking to make a profit. They go where money is available and contracts are easy to obtain. Ethically, there will be a global problem.What do you think, Mr. Leduc and Mr. Tang?AlgorithmsArtificial intelligenceEthics and ethical issuesHealth care systemMilitary weaponsBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesAndréLeduc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1655)[Translation]Mr. Mittelstadt, did you want to add something?AnTangBrentMittelstadt//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/35397JacquesGourdeJacques-GourdeLévis—LotbinièreConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/GourdeJacques_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Jacques Gourde: (1655)[Translation]Thank you.BrentMittelstadtBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard (Montarville, Lib.): (1655)[Translation]Mr. Tang, you mentioned earlier that the information could be made anonymous, so that no link can be made between the patient and the information. Doesn't this practice, which is intended to protect the individual, have a perverse effect? Indeed, once the information is anonymous, consent is no longer required to conduct the studies you want with the data you have.AlgorithmsArtificial intelligenceHealth care systemPrivacy and data protectionBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesAnTang//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1655)[English] Mr. Mittelstadt, can you come back to what you said about protecting data and not protecting people? Did you say that we did protect data but not people, or we should protect data and not necessarily people because that is what AI is all about? Can you comment on that, please?AlgorithmsArtificial intelligenceHealth care systemPrivacy and data protectionAnTangBrentMittelstadt//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1655)[English]That suggests that we then have to find a way legally to.... With not being able to separate data from the people, when there's harm done to data, there is therefore harm done to someone, because somewhere the data concerns someone. You can protect someone but you can't sue the data, but data is the centre of the focus. Do we lack something, legally speaking ?AlgorithmsArtificial intelligenceHealth care systemPrivacy and data protectionBrentMittelstadtBrentMittelstadt//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1700)[Translation]Mr. Leduc, you surprised me by saying that everyone was caught off guard and no one anticipated how important data would be or how much influence the information would have on our daily lives.However, we have been talking about information, its added value and its commercialization for some time now, if we remember Alvin Toffler's Future Shock and especially his book The Third Wave, published in 1980. We have known for a long time that information has an extraordinary and precious value. Could we conclude that we chose to close our eyes rather than say that we hadn't seen anything coming?AlgorithmsArtificial intelligenceHealth care systemPrivacy and data protectionBrentMittelstadtAndréLeduc//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1700)[Translation]In other words, if I interpret...AndréLeducBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71529MichelPicardMichel-PicardMontarvilleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PicardMichel_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Michel Picard: (1700)[English]I had a good one.Voices: Oh, oh!BobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern RockiesBobZimmerPrince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel (Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, NDP): (1615)[Translation]Thank you very much, Madam Chair.Thank you to all the witnesses.Our chair has gotten us all used to always giving priority to witnesses who appear by video conference, in case we lose the signal due to a technical problem. So I'm going to ask you a question right now, Mr. Palmer.It was interesting to hear you talk about your journey, how it started and how the Canada Council has helped you at various stages. You also gave us a good explanation of the difficulties you encountered. I think the adventure of puppet shows in the trunk of your old Volvo was really great.Do you feel that the Canada Council's programs have evolved in a way that reflects reality?The Canada Council for the Arts wanted to revise its programs and also received this incredible manna that allowed it to meet the needs and ambitions of artists.In today's market, there is a lot of electronic competition, and fewer companies. Indeed, companies are finding it increasingly difficult to provide for themselves. Here, I am thinking, among other things, of record companies and the fact that artists are becoming more autonomous.In this context, do you have the impression that the Canada Council for the Arts has been able to modernize over the years?I would also like to hear the opinions of Mr. Stacey and Ms. Tracey.This may have been a strange time to receive twice as much money, just as the Canada Council for the Arts was redesigning its network. I think you made that point, Mr. Stacey.Is the evolution keeping pace with creators' needs?Do you think it was an odd time to get all that money, while they were redesigning the organization?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityModernizationJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJuddPalmer//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1620)[English]That's great news.[Translation]Ms. Tracey, I understand you work in the field of children's theatre.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityModernizationJuddPalmerNickTracey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1620)[Translation]The Canada Council for the Arts has obviously sought to adjust its new funding programs, particularly for First Nations. I'm a little off topic, but I'd like to know if children's theatre is part of a subdivision of the six grant programs and if it receives special attention from the Canada Council for the Arts.Mr. Stacey, I believe that getting such a fantastic budget increase at a time when you're redesigning the system is almost like receiving a poisoned gift. I'd like you to come back to that.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityModernizationNickTraceyNickTracey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1715)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I want to thank all the witnesses.Ms. Sundstrom, thank you for your expertise and objectivity.Mr. Shields, I completely share your concerns about the distribution of funding and how the distribution can be interpreted. The Canada Council for the Arts obviously appears to be providing less money to Alberta. However, it seems that this outcome is the result of various factors. Ms. Sundstrom tried to explain it properly. I'm pleased about this, because I honestly feel uncomfortable with the fact that we're taking advantage of the presence of witnesses in this study to build a case regarding the lack of funding in Alberta. I hope that Mr. Boissonnault and I can talk about this again in a few years.The figures show that the Canada Council for the Arts gives less money to Alberta. However, I believe that there are reasons for this. We certainly have some issues to resolve, but I think we were a little overzealous.Thank you, Ms. Sundstrom.Mr. Jain and Mr. Lightwala, I hope to have the opportunity to speak to you, because I completely share Mr. Shields' enthusiasm for your analysis. I think that you perfectly described the modernity that we should aspire to. You're right to say that this model is Eurocentric. I'm pleased to see that the council has made the necessary adjustments.I'll now turn to the representatives of the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française.I realize that we don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul. We should be able to trust that the size of the budget allocated to the council will support new theatrical traditions in Canada, such as the pieces presented by Mr. Lightwala and Mr. Jain. I'm also grateful to you for clearly reminding us that if artists exhibit their work in a cultural centre that operates as a non-profit organization, it's not because the artists aren't good enough for a professional centre. Instead, the location is the only place in their community where they can exhibit their work. I found that you qualified your assertions. That said, are you saying that you should have had more support? Do you feel that you received better or worse service in the past? Do the recent structural changes in the council seem promising to you? If not, what are your specific concerns?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityFrenchLinguistic minoritiesRural communitiesJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthMartinThéberge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1720)[Translation]Mr. Prescott, do you share that opinion? I imagine that your community doesn't have festivals the size of the event at Massey Theatre, does it?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityNorthern CanadaRural communitiesMartinThébergeCaseyPrescott//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1720)[Translation]I'm sorry.Thank you.JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault (Sherbrooke, NDP): (1120)[Translation]Mr. Chair, thank you for welcoming to your committee.I'm very interested in the topic, since we're talking about services to Canadians. When it comes to service quality, the Government of Canada can't be said to be performing well, not just compared to other governments, but also compared to the private sector, where no one would accept poor service from a company to its customers.Canadians pay taxes to the government every year and expect that this money will be used to serve them well and in a timely manner. Clearly, this isn't the case with the call centres you looked at, and I remember that it was the Canada Revenue Agency that was severely blamed in 2017. It seems that all these government agencies are fighting each other to get the worst customer service record.In your audits, did you find out if your 2017 report on the Canada Revenue Agency had any feedback from departments and if they were aware of the issues? Do you think these organizations have tried to solve these problems or simply ignored them since 2017?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaBryanMayCambridgeSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1120)[Translation]My colleague just raised the whole issue of technology modernization. In its response to your report, the Canada Revenue Agency was clearly committed to modernizing its systems to respond adequately to the public.I'm wondering what happens when calls are rejected, when people are redirected to other telephone options or when they are simply asked to call back later. How is this accounted for in performance measures? What worries me about the numbers I'm seeing are the average wait times, including eight minutes for employment insurance, five minutes for the Canada pension plan and old age security, 32 minutes for Immigration and five minutes for Veterans Affairs. However, these statistics don't include calls where communication is cut off and people haven't been able to speak to an agent. Does that distort the data a little? If communication is cut off in 45% to 50% of calls and people can't talk to an agent, but agents answer the other half of the calls in eight minutes, do you find these statistics reliable?BacklogsCall centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaSylvainRicardSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1125)[Translation]This calculation method removes their importance from service standards. If, for instance, the standard is 10 minutes, but that time limit is only met for 25% of calls that have not been redirected, cut or abandoned, the service hasn't improved in my opinion. So it isn't enough to establish service standards for time limits; the service also has to be accessible.Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaService standardsJeanGouletSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1125)[Translation]I would like to ask one question in the time I have left.SylvainRicardBryanMayCambridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1125)[Translation]I would like to come back to the argument made by Employment and Social Development Canada to give it the benefit of the doubt, namely that self-serve functions are offered by the department 24 hours a day, seven days a week.How are calls from people who use these self-service functions counted? These people may eventually get their questions answered, receive the service they are looking for and become satisfied clients. These calls aren't rejected or forwarded to an agent. Are they counted in any particular way?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaBryanMayCambridgeBryanMayCambridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1155)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I would like to quickly come back to the issue of call centre capacity. That's the excuse used by the government to say that the number of calls exceeds the technological capacity of the call centres.However, the statistics indicate that Veterans Affairs Canada seems to be using technology that allows it to answer all calls, at least as a first step since all calls are have been routed, according to the graph you provided to us.How did the other three departments justify the lack of capacity of their call centres? Were they really technological limitations that made it possible to manage such a volume of calls or rather an imposed constraint that redirects all calls elsewhere beyond a maximum number programmed into the system? Can you tell us more about that?Call centresGovernment servicesInformation technologyReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaBryanMayCambridgeJeanGoulet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1200)[Translation]Ultimately, it's more an issue of resources than the number of agents available. Does the telephone system technology create a problem? For example, if 200,000 calls arrive in the same amount of time, will there be a problem with the 200,001th call?Call centresGovernment servicesInformation technologyReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaJeanGouletJeanGoulet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1200)[Translation]I would like to know if, internally, the department or call centre can decide not to answer calls over a certain number and instead redirect them to the website or other options. Is a decision being made somewhere to determine the number of calls over which there aren't enough staff to meet the 10-minute service deadline and people need to be redirected elsewhere?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaJeanGouletBryanMayCambridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1200)[Translation]Thank you.JeanGouletBryanMayCambridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1215)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Mr. Ricard, I'd like to come back to an observation you made about Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada.In 2012, the department closed many offices that were open to the public. That was the case in Sherbrooke, where I'm from. I mention the name of my riding today because we suffered the consequences of this closure in 2012. Before that, people could meet someone in person in an office on Wellington Street, in downtown Sherbrooke. The department also closed offices in other Canadian cities.Since people had no choice but to use the telephone service, the department received a significantly higher volume of calls. However, instead of asking for more resources to meet this new demand, the department decided to reduce services. It decided to stop responding to general inquiries because it was taking too long or because its resources were insufficient.Have you observed the same thing in other departments? Are there departments that have decided to cut services, without regard for clients, rather than hire more people to meet the increased demand? The correct response would have been to better fund and organize call centres to meet the needs of citizens.Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaBryanMayCambridgeSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1215)[Translation]In 2015, the department's reaction was to stop answering calls, but it wasn't necessarily the right approach for meeting client expectations. At least it ended up making adjustments.My other question concerns service standards. You said that the Treasury Board Secretariat, or TBS, has established three minimum service standards. Did your study allow you to determine whether the TBS is doing anything to ensure that call centres meet these three service standards? Or has TBS simply issued three service standards and done nothing to enforce them through government call centres? Can you provide us with some insight into TBS' relationship with departments to ensure they meet these service standards?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaService standardsJeanGouletJeanGoulet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation]Is this because you found that TBS wasn't following up with departments to ensure that they were meeting the standards?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaService standardsJeanGouletSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation]Okay.You said that TBS has three service standards, but what are you referring to?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaService standardsSylvainRicardJeanGoulet//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation]These are more general standards. Figures or time aren't necessarily given.Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaService standardsJeanGouletSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation]TBS didn't say that the standard should be between 10 and 15 minutes, for example?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaService standardsSylvainRicardSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation]Okay.TBS asks that standards be established for these three areas, but it lets the departments establish their own standards based on their reality.Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaService standardsSylvainRicardSylvainRicard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1220)[Translation]If such service standards were established, ultimately, it would be TBS that would be responsible for monitoring it, according to you and it, I imagine.Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaService standardsSylvainRicardBryanMayCambridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1255)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today to try to explain the poor quality of service in their department.In the private sector, you would have been bankrupt long ago. With respect to service quality, unfortunately, government clients have only one choice. They can't choose another company, so they're captive to the services we offer them; they have no other options. It's quite different in the private sector, of course.I also understand that there are differences between the services offered in the private sector and those offered by the government. That's your reality.I'm trying to identify the problem and why so many calls are rejected, so they don't go to a call centre agent. You say that call centres aren't able to respond to call volume. Can you explain this lack of capacity in the system? More specifically, why are people blocked and is communication cut off when they call?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaBryanMayCambridgeLeslieMacLean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1300)[Translation]I would like to continue on this subject. What frustrates many people is that you have a goal of answering 80% of calls in 10 minutes, but half of the calls are blocked—even more in some cases because your department has several sectors. Of course, when you manage to talk to someone, maybe it happens within 10 minutes, but that doesn't take into account the fact that there are a lot of citizens who can't talk to anyone.Will this aspect be corrected as well? You say that you have already migrated for the Employer Service Centre and the Canada pension plan and old age security call centres, and that the accessibility rate is 100%. Also, do you have any figures on wait times?Call centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaLeslieMacLeanLeslieMacLean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1300)[Translation]That's what I was saying to the Auditor General: it's fine if 20% of people can talk to someone and the 10-minute target has been met, but it means that 80% of people haven't been able to talk to anyone.So, when the accessibility rate is 100%, what are the figures for wait times?BacklogsCall centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaLeslieMacLeanLeslieMacLean//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71553Pierre-LucDusseaultPierre-Luc-DusseaultSherbrookeNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/DusseaultPierreLuc_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre-Luc Dusseault: (1300)[Translation]You don't have the number of wait time minutes for the new system. The 5.5 minutes were for the old system.BacklogsCall centresGovernment servicesReport 1, Call Centres, of the Spring 2019 Reports of the Auditor General of CanadaLeslieMacLeanBryanMayCambridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, NDP): (1110)[Translation]I would like to clarify certain aspects, to ensure that we understand the situation properly.Let's use the example of a pregnant member whose riding is very far. If ever, as of the 28th week of pregnancy, it became very complicated for her, medically speaking, to get to Parliament, she would have to provide a medical certificate justifying her absence from the House, as far as I understand. Basically, the days in the period between the 28th week and the 36th week of pregnancy would be considered sick days. As of the 36th week, they would be considered pregnancy days.In short, before the 36th week of pregnancy, a member's non-attendance must be justified through medical reasons that prevent her from coming to Parliament. In that case, the individual must provide a medical certificate.Absence or presence of membersChildrenMedical certificatesPregnancyLarryBagnellHon.YukonPhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1110)[Translation]Great.I want to clarify something else.During those days of non-attendance, the member remains responsible for all the administrative aspects—so anything that cannot be delegated to employees. The member continues to fulfil their duties, such as by approving their employees' various absences and their office's spending. The whole administrative component related to the management of the member's office remains the member's responsibility, correct?Absence or presence of membersChildrenMembers' parliamentary officesPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1110)[Translation]Ultimately, a member with a critic role can be called by their party to provide advice on positions to take, for example, while a nurse on maternity leave would not be called at home to be asked whether a patient should be given a particular medication.Absence or presence of membersChildrenPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1110)[Translation]Concerning the 12-month period, that is left to the member's discretion. There is no obligation to take 12 months of leave. A member can make a judgment call and decide to be present for two months because an important issue for them is under consideration, and then decide to take a month to be with their child.The parliamentary calendar is often made up of three-week blocks of sitting, after which members can return to their riding for a week. The member could elect not to return to the House during the week in the middle of that block, to avoid having to make a round trip over the weekend. In general, members make a round trip in less than 48 hours, to make the trip less difficult. So a member could choose to spend the middle week in their riding, to avoid round trips over a weekend. That would be possible to do over a 12-month period.Absence or presence of membersChildrenPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1115)[Translation]I have one last question. It's about financial penalties. Basically, that amendment shelters members from financial penalties.Often, all the $120 deductions for every day of sitting that will be missed are added up. We tell ourselves that it may not be a very large amount, but Parliament could decide at any time to increase that amount. For example, it could decide that, from now on, there will be a $500 deduction per day of non-attendance. In that case, the estimated cost of absences for maternity reasons would no longer be the same at all.Do you know when the $120 amount was last indexed or changed?Absence or presence of membersChildrenPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1115)[Translation]So, to your knowledge, the $120 amount has never been increased.Absence or presence of membersChildrenPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1115)[Translation]Okay.PhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1115)[Translation]Thank you very much. That answers my questions.PhilippeDufresneLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1120)[Translation]I would just like to clarify something about retroactivity of sorts.Let's take the example of a new member with a six-month-old child at the time of election. Could they choose to have a lighter schedule over the first six months of their term?If these regulations were implemented now, since there are not many sitting days left, I would be surprised if people decided to opt for that kind of a schedule. However, once the regulations have been implemented, any members with a child under the age of 12 months could decide to miss sittings on certain days for reason of parenthood.Absence or presence of membersChildrenLarryBagnellHon.YukonPhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1125)[Translation]That's right. Essentially, that means that, if I had an 11-month-old child when the regulations went into force, I would have another month to benefit from that measure.Absence or presence of membersChildrenPhilippeDufresnePhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1125)[Translation]Thank you.PhilippeDufresneLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1130)[Translation]I can answer some of Ms. Sahota's questions.You were wondering under what circumstances we may be talking about public or official business. I could tell you about a fairly plausible case. If a member becomes president of an international parliamentary association—for example, the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association or the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly—we can assume they will often miss sittings because they will have to travel. Having known some presidents of international parliamentary associations, I know that the position leads to many absences. I also know that some members have been approached to seek candidacy with an international association, but they decided not to do it. In any case, if a member holds an internationally recognized position that takes up a lot of their time, that could be one of the plausible reasons for which they will not often be present in Parliament. That is an example of public or official business that would explain why a member is not present.I can now explain to you how we came to these regulations.While I was a member, I had three children, so three pregnancies. When I started working on this issue, I knew that, until the Parliament of Canada Act was amended, we could not move on to the next step, that of regulations.The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs first met on this issue and then produced a report containing that recommendation. The measure was then included in the budget. Once the Budget Implementation Act received royal assent and, consequently, the Parliament of Canada Act was amended, I provided draft regulations to the NDP House leader, who was then Ms. Brosseau. She was in charge of getting the regulations adopted. In fact, it was up to House leaders Ms. Bergen, Ms. Chagger and Ms. Brosseau to begin the discussion on the regulations.Once I returned after giving birth, I came back to the issue to figure out why the regulations had not yet been adopted. I also tried to get this file on the agenda. So I know that other discussions were held among the House leaders of various parties to put it back on the agenda before the parliamentary session ends, so that a new Parliament would not have to finish the work on this.That is what has happened concerning the regulations.Absence or presence of membersChildrenLarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (1135)[English]To build on Ruby's first question, BOIE makes changes all the time to all kinds of things, and in my four years on this committee, they've never come to procedure and House affairs. Why this one? Do we have to take an action for this to happen?Absence or presence of membersChildrenParliament of Canada ActLarryBagnellHon.YukonPhilippeDufresne//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1135)[English]Okay, but BOIE changes things all the time, and there's nothing else they've done that would ever have had to come through PROC. I'm just surprised by that.PhilippeDufresneScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Kingston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1135)[English]Under the book.... Whatever the book's called. Yes.ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—KingstonScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Kingston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1140)[English]Scott, I want to let you know that last week I briefly chaired the natural resources committee, and the Simms method is now in the wild.LarryBagnellHon.YukonScottReidLanark—Frontenac—Kingston//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1140)[English]I've made it a precedent in other committees.Thank you for that information. It's quite helpful.On process, because I'm a processor, as you know, do we have a report ready to do something with?ScottReidLanark—Frontenac—KingstonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1140)[English]Well, then, I guess I will suggest that we do that.LarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1140)[English]I will talk afterwards. I'm in favour, but I will propose something else afterwards.LarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1140)[English]I don't know if we can have in our report that we should later consider modifying the Parliament of Canada Act to include a member whose partner is pregnant. We are not able to right now, but maybe we could consider it later, or maybe the minister responsible should consider that.Absence or presence of membersChildrenParliament of Canada ActLarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[English]Yes.Absence or presence of membersChildrenParliament of Canada ActPregnancyLarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[English]Okay. That's good.LarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[English]It's possible to just add a line on the report that the minister should consider the question and maybe think about modifying the Parliament of Canada Act. Maybe we could refer that and ask the minister to consider it. Absence or presence of membersChildrenParliament of Canada ActStephanieKusieCalgary MidnaporeStephanieKusieCalgary Midnapore//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1145)[English]In the report, maybe we could add the different issues we want to go back to later. It will have to go back to proxy voting and to the question of the partner. In the report, maybe we could include what we refer to for a subsequent study. Absence or presence of membersChildrenPregnancySpousesStephanieKusieCalgary MidnaporeLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1150)[English]Twenty-one sitting days is already more than a month.Absence or presence of membersChildrenLarryBagnellHon.YukonJohnNaterPerth—Wellington//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1150)[English]Yes I am, but I forget why.LarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1150)[Translation]Basically, here is the problem I am seeing regarding the 21 days.Let's take the example of a member who lives very far from Ottawa and would have to travel for 24 hours to be present when his spouse gave birth. He could completely miss the birth. So it can be expected for them to want to remain with their spouse as of the 36th week of pregnancy.If, by misfortune, the 36th week of pregnancy happened to fall within a House sitting period, the 21 days could be used to cover the period when the member is staying at home, but he will be left with no days for any other leave reasons. Let's take the case of a member who has already had to miss two weeks of sittings for other reasons that are not covered, such as to attend his father's or mother's funeral. If he wanted to take another leave to stay with his wife who is close to giving birth, the 21 days may not be enough.It is more in that kind of a situation that this could happen. It may not have happened in the past, but it could happen.Absence or presence of membersChildrenPregnancyLarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1150)[English]Just on the proxy voting, maybe you should consider a meeting with technology services to figure out what could be used and what technology or which way we can do it. In terms of technical challenges, I think it could be interesting to have a meeting with technology services.[Translation]This could help the committee decide whether that option is reasonable and reliable from a security point of view. That could also be added to the agenda of a subsequent meeting.Absence or presence of membersChildrenLarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (1150)[English]We might defer it to PROC 43. LarryBagnellHon.YukonLarryBagnellHon.Yukon//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin (Trois-Rivières, NDP): (1145)[Translation]Can you give me 30 seconds?Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1145)[Translation]I am looking for something I saw yesterday, but I can't find it.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekRonLiepertCalgary Signal Hill//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1145)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I have found my question. In the second paragraph of the letter, it says: “Les témoins avaient tous des commentaires élogieux pour le FNCC”. I acknowledge that there was a broad consensus, but the word: “tous” means what it means. I did not hear the witness from the Western Canadian Short Line Railway Association make comments as effusive as the letter gives us to understand.Committee businessNational Trade Corridors FundTradeTransportation infrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1145)[Translation]In French, it is more than positive, it is “effusive”. We could write “des commentaires favorables”. Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1145)[Translation]I never heard effusive comments from the witnesses from the railway companies.Committee businessVanceBadaweyNiagara CentreJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1145)[Translation]We could also replace the beginning of the sentence with “Plusieurs témoins ont eu des commentaires élogieux”. The use of the word “tous” is an exaggeration. I feel like a car salesman.Committee businessJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1145)[Translation]No.Judy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black Creek//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): (1100)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.It's good to be back.I will start by saying that I appreciate the work you do at this committee. I hear about it regularly. I realize that farmers' needs are always at the heart of your discussions. I want to thank you for your recent reports on mental health and indigenous peoples in agriculture. These are issues that impact our farming communities across Canada, and we have a duty to take immediate action.Today, we are looking at the main estimates for 2019-20. The estimates underline the government's commitment to the Canadian agriculture and food sector. Over the coming fiscal year, we are budgeting $2.5 billion to support key priorities of the sector. This morning, I would like to touch on some of these.[English]On trade, the canola situation in China continues to be a top priority. Last month, I met with Minister Han, my Chinese counterpart, at the G20 ministers' meeting in Japan. I expressed Canada's deep concerns about the suspension of Canadian canola exports to China and urged that this issue needs to be resolved quickly. Canada's ambassador to the WTO—the World Trade Organization—has also urged China to work with Canada on solutions. Responding to industry, we have extended the loan limit of the advance payments program to $1 million for all producers, with $500,000 interest-free for canola producers. The regulations are now in place and producers will be able to apply for new amounts as early as June 10.We have also worked with provinces and territories to extend the deadline for AgriStability. This will give producers a great opportunity to make use of an important risk management tool in uncertain times.We are taking a Team Canada approach. Our working group meets once a week, bringing together the industry, the provinces and, obviously, our officials at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, as well as Global Affairs Canada.[Translation]On the Japan mission, I was joined by Jim Everson, president of the Canola Council of Canada. We met with some key Japanese importers to look at ways to grow our business in this key market, especially with opportunities opening up under the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, or CPTPP. I also took the opportunity to meet with other G20 ministers, including European Commissioner of Agriculture Phil Hogan, to express Canada's concerns about barriers to our durum wheat in Italy and our pulses in India. We continue to diversify trade for our canola and all of our great agri-food products through new free trade agreements such as the CPTPP.[English]There is more good news, Mr. Chair. Japan recently announced that it will now accept Canadian beef from animals over 30 months of age. This gives our beef producers full access to Japan, so they can take full advantage of the new opportunities under the CPTPP.There is more good news for our farmers and food processors. The U.S. lifted section 232 tariffs on steel and aluminum, which strengthens our relationship with our largest trading partner. As you know, the Prime Minister has introduced legislation to ratify the new NAFTA. Last week, he and Vice-President Pence both expressed the aim of moving forward as quickly as possible to ratification.(1105)[Translation]The new NAFTA is imperative for our agri-food industry. The United States and Mexico buy $37 billion of our agri-food products, and we know we can grow that business even more. We are also working very closely with the United States and Mexico to take measures to keep African swine fever from our shores. Building on our international African swine fever meeting in Ottawa last month, Canada and the United States have reached an agreement on the application of zones. This measure will allow safe trade in pork to continue in the event of an outbreak of this serious disease.[English] Some $200 million of the estimates will support year two of the Canadian agricultural partnership. Programs under the partnership are also helping farmers capitalize on opportunities for sustainable growth while adapting to climate change.In agricultural science, there's $70 million to address emerging priorities, such as climate change, and soil and water conservation. To help meet these goals, our government has committed to hiring 75 new scientists and science professionals in emerging fields of agriculture, and we have launched a world-first living laboratories project, bringing scientists and farmers together in the field to conduct environmental research that producers can apply directly to their farms.It will help farmers adopt climate smart technologies at a faster pace. This made-in-Canada approach was embraced by G-20 agriculture ministers at our meeting in Japan. Environmental sustainability is also a key pillar of our new $50 million Canadian agricultural strategic priorities program.[Translation]Mr. Chair, we have a busy few weeks ahead.We are aiming to announce the details of our investment in support of our supply-managed producers and processors soon.That includes $2.4 billion to sustain the incomes of dairy, poultry and egg farmers as a result of the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, or CETA, and the CPTPP.As promised, we will support our dairy, poultry and egg producers who are impacted by trade agreements. We continue to work with industry to secure the long-term prosperity of producers and processors.[English]I also look forward to announcing Canada's first-ever food policy. There has been much enthusiasm across Canada. In fact, 45,000 people have participated in the consultations and I have had some excellent discussions on the policy, including at the recent national conference on food security. The policy sets out an ambitious vision to ensure that all people in Canada are able to access safe and healthy food through a healthier and sustainable Canadian food system. Therefore, we continue to work hard to advance the industry.[Translation]Once again, I want to thank you for your great work on some key issues impacting our sector.I would be pleased to answer any questions you have.African swine feverAgricultural policyAgriStability ProgramAluminum industryBeefCanada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade AgreementCanada-United States-Mexico AgreementCanadian Agricultural PartnershipCanadian Agricultural Strategic PartnershipCanola growingChinaClimate change and global warmingComprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific PartnershipCustoms tariff and customs dutiesDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsJapanMain estimates 2019-2020Peas growingResearch and researchersSteel industrySupply managementSustainable developmentUnited States of AmericaWheat and wheat growingPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakePatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold (Mégantic—L'Érable, CPC): (1105)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Thank you, Minister. I was glad that, yesterday, in the House of Commons, we were able to find some common ground. That was quite useful.I want to make clear that, in no way, do I question your concern for Canada's agricultural industry or your desire to protect it. No one in Canada would ever intentionally work against the industry. It is an industry I care about deeply and one we all want to see grow. In fact, I want to tip my hat to department staff. We all want to help farmers succeed and to raise the profile of Canada's products around the world.What we disagree on, however, is the means to achieve that end.Minister, in your opening statement, you mentioned your meeting with your Chinese counterpart. You wrote him asking for permission to send a delegation of experts to China. You had what you referred to as an introductory meeting. I didn't quite understand what you meant by that. You said you spoke at length, but you never once said what the Chinese agriculture minister's answer to your request was. Can you tell us about that?Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakeMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1110)[Translation]I did indeed have a chance to meet with my Chinese counterpart when I was in Japan for the G20 agricultural ministers meeting. It was a golden opportunity because the focus of the discussions was rule-based trade and evidence-based decision-making, so that set the stage. We had a face-to-face meeting on the issue, and our respective teams were also there. I raised Canada's concerns.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1110)[Translation]I already know all that. You've repeatedly mentioned the topics that were discussed, but I'd like to know what China's response was. The problem, right now, is China's lack of a response. You sent a letter, but you haven't gotten an answer. Canada still hasn't sent a delegation of experts. You met with your counterpart, but nothing has come of it. The Prime Minister refuses to broach the subject with the Chinese president to resolve the issue.You, however, managed to discuss the issue with the Chinese minister. What was China's response?Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1110)[Translation]Minister Han Changfu is responsible for agriculture. At the end of our discussion, he committed to speak with his colleague, the customs minister.I'm pleased to tell you that, last night, Canadian Food Inspection Agency experts had a meeting and followed up with the people at China's customs department. Talks are progressing as we would like, in other words, based on data and evidence.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1110)[Translation]You didn't demand that China stop making false allegations about Canada's agricultural products. You didn't ask your Chinese counterpart to urge his government to put an end to the allegations.Are you still hopeful that Canada will be able to send a delegation of experts to China? Everyone in Canada knows this has nothing to do with science or product quality. You, yourself, said yesterday, in the House of Commons, that this was political. Nevertheless, you're still talking about a delegation of CFIA experts discussing the science with their Chinese counterparts, but you're stubbornly refusing to address this on a political level.Why is your government refusing to engage in a political dialogue with China?Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1110)[Translation]As Minister of Agriculture, I will continue to stand up for the quality of Canadian products and the extreme rigour of our inspection system. That is one of my core responsibilities.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1110)[Translation]As Minister of Agriculture, you're a member of cabinet.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1110)[Translation]Yes.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1110)[Translation]You are in cabinet to defend the interests of canola farmers and pork producers. Your job at the cabinet table is to bring forward the views of farmers.We want to know why the Canadian government stubbornly refuses to initiate formal talks with China. Why are you refusing to appoint an ambassador? We found out that the Chinese ambassador is resigning. Will you tell China that Canada won't accept the appointment of a Chinese ambassador to Canada if China doesn't accept the appointment of a Canadian ambassador to China?Diplomatic talks with China are necessary, but you're refusing to go there. Why?Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1110)[Translation]As I've repeatedly said, we work as a team. We recognize that, central though it may be, the technical dimension isn't the only issue at play. The science is another central aspect, and that's why I'm working closely with Ministers Freeland and Carr. Obviously, the Prime Minister is also very involved in the file. You should direct any diplomacy-related questions to Ms. Freeland. We are exploring all available tools and options. Many countries, including the United States, are behind us and recognize the importance of continuing—Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1110)[Translation]Unfortunately, Minister, it's not working, and the situation is going from bad to worse.Yesterday, on 24/60, you said you were aware of other export access restrictions on other Canadian products. What are they?Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PorkMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1110)[Translation]Officially—Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PorkLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1110)[Translation]And unofficially, since you've had other conversations.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PorkMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1110)[Translation]Officially, we know about the restrictions on canola and pork, obviously. In the case of pork, it's more of an administrative issue. Certain forms and certificates contained errors. The industry has noted that it is subject to heightened inspection measures, but no formal notice has been received to indicate that the procedure has changed for other Canadian products.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PorkLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1110)[Translation]We are worried about that. What are the other products?Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PorkSoy and soybean growingMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1115)[Translation]I've heard soybeans mentioned, among others.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PorkSoy and soybean growingLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1115)[Translation]Is that the only product?Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PorkMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1115)[Translation]According to the reports I'm getting.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PorkLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrablePatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1115)[Translation]I have already spoken to many of them, either by phone or in person, including Minister Lamontagne, who will be hosting us in Quebec City. My relationships with the provincial ministers have gotten off on the right foot. Clearly, the provinces are key partners in agriculture.As you know, a joint investment of $3 billion is being made over five years under the Canadian agricultural partnership, which features a number of funding and risk management programs for farmers. The suite of programs to help farmers will be on the table, given that changes were made in recent years. We'll be reviewing them to see how they help achieve objectives and what the feedback from industry is. That will be a major topic of discussion.We'll be discussing African swine fever and the issue of animal health. Items on the agenda include African swine fever, the labour shortage—which is having a significant impact—international trade and market access. Those are the main topics on the agenda for July.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFederal-provincial-territorial relationsMain estimates 2019-2020FrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1115)[Translation]In the budget, we announced a total of $3.9 billion in funding, with $2.4 billion in compensation for farmers in a number of supply-managed sectors. Support in the amount of $250 million had already been provided through investment programs. I became minister three months ago, just a few days before the budget was announced. As you are aware, I was already very familiar with the issues affecting supply-managed sectors, particularly the dairy industry, since my riding is home to many dairy farmers. I was therefore able to take over the file fairly quickly.As for the approach, it comes down to examining what the working groups have come up with. In the reports they submitted to us, they measured the impact of the various trade agreements and specified which funding mechanisms they think would work best, as well as how long the mechanisms or compensation should be in place. It depends on the sector. The needs of the dairy sector aren't the same as those of the poultry or egg sector, for example. We've taken the time to thoroughly examine the work that's been done and the report findings.On my end, I wanted to speak directly with industry representatives, so I organized a number of round tables and visited a number of farms. I needed to gauge the situation so I could make the best possible recommendations to cabinet and the Minister of Finance. Billions of dollars are being allocated, so it goes without saying that Treasury Board has a pivotal role to play. A well-designed and robust review mechanism is essential to make sure everything is done properly.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1120)[Translation]We increased the loan limit from $400,000 to $1 million for all producers on a permanent basis. The first $100,000 remains interest-free for all producers. For canola farmers, specifically, the interest-free portion has gone from $100,000 to $500,000.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsLoansMain estimates 2019-2020FrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—RussellFrancisDrouinGlengarry—Prescott—Russell//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1120)[English]When the budget was released, the working group had not not yet completed its work. There was a gap or a difference between the understanding of the department and that of the industry, and we really needed to do much more work. I also wanted to understand it better. Since then, for the last three months, we have had the opportunity to deepen our analysis, to share data, and to better understand the situation. I'm confident that I will be able to release the information and the compensation, not only for the producers but also for the processors, by the end of the month.Dairy farmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1120)[English]I hope so, yes. I'm working very hard on it.Dairy farmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1120)[English]You know there is a difference in the share of the TRQs for CETA and the trans-Pacific agreement. It's under the responsibility of Minister Carr, the Minister of International Trade Diversification. He is going through a review. I can tell you that we have had quite a few conversations on the subject. I can assure you that he understands the issue and the requests and the expectations.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersInternational tradeMain estimates 2019-2020AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1120)[English]Of course, absolutely, you are right, but I also have to respect the responsibilities of my colleagues. I can tell you that we talk about it on a regular basis. Right now he is going through a full review of the TRQs for all the agreements we have, including CETA, the trans-Pacific agreement, even the WTO agreements, and he is obviously looking at the new NAFTA as well.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersInternational tradeMain estimates 2019-2020AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1125)[English]There was some agreement on the share to start with when the first two agreements were signed. It's not such a delay. We had to see how it would be rolled out; what the impacts would be; and how the small, medium and large ones would benefit from that. This is why we have to go through this review—and we're talking about months, not years. We really want to hear from the processors and to understand their reality. I do it. Minister Carr does it as well. We want to find the best solution for the longer term. Now I would say that we are in the transition period and we want to do the best for our industry.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersInternational tradeMain estimates 2019-2020AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1125)[English] The latest movement we had was last night. We had a new conversation between scientists and specialists from the CFIA, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, and Customs China.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1125)[English]On the discussions, there was a little time between the last discussion and this one. Yesterday, last night, we agreed and they agreed to have more sustained discussions, a telephone conference on the subject. They did not close the door to the delegation, because we asked for it again, as I did when I met with Minister Han in Japan. We are still asking for that, but the conversation has been reactivated, and yesterday we could feel that we were at a different level of getting into what we want to talk about—the evidence and everything. This is encouraging. I will go back to Minister Han and ask again for this delegation. We still believe that it would be easier for our scientists to have a face-to-face discussion to understand the issues on both sides and to find a lasting solution.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020AlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1125)[English]There had been very important consultations before that. I want to acknowledge as well the work of my predecessor, Minister MacAulay, of course. It has been a very interesting process, especially when we see that 45,000 people participated in this consultation. We could feel that Canadians were asking for such a food policy. I would say that the estimates and the first phase...because I believe that it's the first phase that we have announced in the budget, and I strongly hope that it will be a lasting policy and will get into our DNA in Canada. There will be a fund for local infrastructure. The amount that has been allocated to that is $50 million. Another one will be working on promoting Canadian products. For the last three months, I've had the chance to meet with so many farmers, and I think we have so many good stories to tell. I want to make sure that this part of the food policy promoting Canadian products also includes getting Canadians to know more about our Canadian agriculture and the good work that our farmers are doing, getting them to better understand where their food comes from, and strengthening the trust and the pride between Canadian consumers and farmers. There will be $25 million attached to this portion.Tackling food fraud will also be something important. Canadians told us that they worry. Even if we are confident in our actual system—I don't have any doubts about its safety—still, when there is a product that comes to us under one name, and later on we understand there are other ingredients in it, we want to be stronger on that to make sure that we buy what we think we're buying. This is something that Canadians care about a lot.There will be some funds directly allocated for our northern and isolated communities. We're talking about $15 million specifically dedicated to these communities.Food waste is also an important part of the food policy.Agricultural policyDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020LloydLongfieldGuelphLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1130)[English]Specifically, there's $26.3 million for reducing food waste. We want to go through a challenge program to find the best ideas to encourage the businesses and the NGOs to work together to find innovative solutions to tackle food waste. Hopefully, after that the idea is to have a second phase and then to use these vast ideas to scale up and bring them to other communities as well.Agricultural policyDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020LloydLongfieldGuelphLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1130)[English]The clean technology program last year was at its beginning. That is why the amount of money was a little bit less than it is this year.[Translation]Things are now in full swing.[English]It's getting rolling. That's why we have an increase in the amount of money.Climate change and global warmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Science and technologyLloydLongfieldGuelphLloydLongfieldGuelph//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1130)[English]Thank you.LloydLongfieldGuelphPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1135)[English]Last year, a new five-year Canadian partnership started.This year, we will have an opportunity to look back on our objectives. Also, the ministers will be mainly new to their positions, not having been there for the previous meetings, so it will be a good opportunity for all of us to really understand why some changes have been brought to these programs. Obviously, I hear a lot from the producers on some of these agri programs. Sometimes they would like to go back to the previous rules, or sometimes they want to see a different type of approach. We are all thinking about it. Our teams are doing the analysis.We are also open to new partnerships, such as bringing private partners on board in different ways. I would say that everything is on the table, but we are hearing what our farmers are telling us. Still, these programs have been developed to face the different types of challenge that a farmer can face. We can see that it's working. Considering the situation we have this year, we have seen a significant increase in the AgriStability this year. We can see that our programs are working.Can we do better? Probably. We can always do better.I really look forward to having this discussion and to sharing ideas. Our teams are already challenging each other and trying to make suggestions.Canadian Agricultural PartnershipDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFederal-provincial-territorial relationsMain estimates 2019-2020KimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1135)[English]You're right. Diversification is not limited to finding new international markets. It's a big part of it, as we have great opportunities, but finding new markets here in Canada and developing new niches, as you said, new products, is something that we want to invest even more in. Actually, we have increased our investment as well, because we are still exporting a lot of raw products. I think we have a lot to gain through investing and processing, and not necessarily the usual products, but finding specific niches that would be interesting.This is why we are investing in different types of programs for innovation as well. You might have seen that there is now $100 million dedicated to agriculture in the—Climate change and global warmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodInternational tradeMain estimates 2019-2020KimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough SouthChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1140)[English]—SIF, in English, the strategic innovation fund. The acronyms in French and English are always a challenge. We are investing a lot in it to try to find new opportunities for our producers.If I may come back to your previous comment, you said that our producers were the first to realize the impact of climate change. I was the minister of international development, and I was always amazed when I was with farmers in the middle of Vietnam or anywhere in the world, and they were talking to me about climate change. That was something very important.In talking about your farmers, I think it would be interesting to follow up with the local food infrastructure fund. There might be opportunities for small and medium organizations in different regions to get better organized to work together, keeping in mind that the objective is to give access to safe, healthy and even culturally diverse food to the people who are most in need in our communities. That could be an opportunity they will see shortly.Climate change and global warmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodInternational tradeMain estimates 2019-2020ChrisForbesKimRuddNorthumberland—Peterborough South//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1140)[English]We are really engaged in all of the files in all of the countries you mentioned. We stand strong for our farmers. Once again, the biggest strength we have here in Canada is the fact that we are providing very high-quality products and our inspection system is very reliable. I was in Japan recently and I can tell you how the Japanese government and the minister of agriculture reinforced the fact that Canada is a very reliable partner.ChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1140)[English]It was specifically related to canola.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020EarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1145)[English] There are many questions within that one.I said earlier how important it is for me, in the buy-Canadian promotion campaign, not only to take marketing action but also to reinforce and strengthen the trust and the pride of Canadians in our Canadian agricultural products. I stand strongly for, and we all believe in, defending and promoting and are proud of our best system.Agricultural policyDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Public trustEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1145)[English]We agree.Agricultural policyDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Public trustEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1145)[English]Absolutely.Agricultural policyDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Public trustEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain View//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1145)[English]I say this because when we did the consultation, it came as a worry, as something that Canadians want to be reassured about. That is why I'm saying in the same sentence that we have to acknowledge, but at the same time, we have to show and demonstrate and share the good stories of what we are doing in our Canadian agricultural sector. We have to be proud of it and be able to trust in it. That is very important. The main objective of the food policy is to give Canadians access of healthy and safe food. We all know that we have safe products in Canada, but not everyone has access to the most healthy or diverse foods. This is much more the issue, making sure that everyone has access to healthy, and obviously, safe food.Agricultural policyDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Public trustEarlDreeshenRed Deer—Mountain ViewPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif (Vimy, Lib.): (1145)[Translation]Thank you for being here, Minister, for the second time in a month.You were recently in Japan for the G20 agriculture ministers meeting. There, you met with your counterparts from the G20, including China's agriculture minister.Can you share some of the details of what you talked about and the results of the meeting?Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsGroup of TwentyMain estimates 2019-2020PatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakeMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1145)[Translation]I did, indeed, attend the G20 meeting. The talks focused on the importance of reliable rule-based trade, market stability and evidence-based decision-making. It was the perfect opportunity to speak with my Chinese counterpart. I was quite clear about Canada's concerns over his country's suspension of the licences of Canadian exporters. He said there was a problem with Canada's canola seed, and my response was that we'd undertaken all the necessary inspections and found no evidence of any issues. I asked him to show us the evidence and stressed that, if there was a problem, we wanted to know what it was so we could fix it. I made it very clear that we needed to have an evidence-based conversation.At this stage, our respective scientists and experts need to talk and sit down with one another. He's the agriculture minister, but he's not in charge of customs. I got the distinct impression that he heard what I was saying and was going to raise the issue with his colleague. That may be why, yesterday, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency was involved in new talks that were more science-based. The general feeling was that the discussion would result in something more. Did one thing lead to another? I can't say for sure, but at least there some movement on the file. Our respective scientists are talking.Canola growingChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsGroup of TwentyMain estimates 2019-2020EvaNassifVimyEvaNassifVimy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1150)[Translation]Tell us, if you would, about the benefits of the G20 meeting.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodGroup of TwentyInternational meetingsMain estimates 2019-2020Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1150)[Translation]As a general rule, meetings at a G20 gathering are always very important. Of course, there's always a formal agenda laying out the main themes, which I already talked about.On the sidelines, however, quite a few multilateral and bilateral meetings take place, so I had an opportunity to speak with the European Commissioner for Agriculture about Italy's shunning of Canadian wheat. We also talked about African swine fever, which is a major concern for us. We don't have the disease in Canada, so that opens up opportunities for our farmers.I also met with Argentina's minister to discuss the possibility of exporting canola there. I attended a special meeting with U.S., Mexican, Argentinian and Brazilian representatives. We spoke mainly about the importance of a unified continental front to support decision-making and adopt evidence-based international trade rules so we can face the big issues together.I had numerous opportunities to assert Canada's position and initiate or continue dialogue with other countries, either bilaterally or multilaterally.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodGroup of TwentyInternational meetingsMain estimates 2019-2020EvaNassifVimyEvaNassifVimy//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1150)[Translation]Thank you.Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1150)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.Minister, thank you for sharing details about your G20 meetings.I, too, think it's important to cultivate relationships with other countries in order to get results. Unfortunately, we haven't seen much in the way of results thus far. Canada seems to be having a tough time getting issues resolved. None of the problems you mentioned has been fixed. What's more, Canada hasn't been able to protect its farmers' interests, and therein lies the rub.The government seems to do a lot of talking but isn't so adept at finding any solutions whatsoever. That is the exact opposite of what Canadians expect. That's why we want ministers to speak to one another—so they can work together in a coordinated way. We want the Prime Minister to stand up for Canadian farmers on the world stage, rather than letting his ministers travel around and talk to people willy-nilly. We want these issues resolved.Minister, we examine multiple issues, and I could've asked you countless more questions. If you were willing to stay another hour, I'm sure that would do it.I'm going to turn to the animal transportation regulations, which have drawn considerable feedback. The new rules are slated to come into effect early next year, but your department is in the midst of a study that won't be finished by then. Why don't you object and demand that the regulations not come into force until the results of your department's study are available?AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakeMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1150)[Translation]The Canadian Food Inspection Agency conducted a very thorough study and consulted—AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1150)[Translation]That's not your department. I'm talking about your department, which is conducting its own in-depth study on animal transportation. Industry stakeholders expect tangible findings that they can rely on. Why, then, is your government going to implement the regulations before the results of your study come out?AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]A considerable amount of research has already been done, and there is sufficient evidence to warrant moving forward with the regulations.AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1155)[Translation]So you are in agreement with the proposed changes.AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]Once again, the decisions are based on data, on probative data.AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1155)[Translation]So you are in agreement with the proposed regulations.AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]Yes, indeed, we are proceeding with the regulations. I understand that, for the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, the process remains open. That means that we will—AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1155)[Translation]As minister, are you in agreement with the changes that will go into effect in January?AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]Absolutely.AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1155)[Translation]Madam Minister, the Americans have announced a flood of billions of dollars to help their farmers with the various initiatives of their government.What is the Government of Canada’s plan to confront the consequences of those billions of dollars that are going to flood into the American industry? We demanded no concessions from the Americans for our supply-managed markets. We actually made a lot of concessions, whereas they are going to continue as before and even increase their subsidies to their industry.So, Madam Minister, what is the Government of Canada’s plan to support our producers in this very difficult economic situation?Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]Mr. Berthold, I do not understand how you can say with a straight face that we demanded no concessions. You know very well that the Americans wanted—Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1155)[Translation]Madam Minister, we did not demand—Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]…the complete dismantling—Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1155)[Translation]…any concessions. I am not laughing at all. For me, this is no laughing matter.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]Nor for me.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementLucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableLucBertholdMégantic—L'Érable//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1155)[Translation]No producers here will be laughing. The supply-managed producers gave up everything and you obtained nothing in return from the Americans for those producers. I think that has been very clear.Madam Minister, I will be yielding the floor to Mr. Shipley. These will be his final comments, because he is retiring. I really want to leave the last question to him.Canada-United States-Mexico AgreementDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020Supply managementMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—StansteadMarie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Compton—Stanstead//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]Thank you.LucBertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableBevShipleyLambton—Kent—Middlesex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[English]I understand what you're saying. I'm working closely with Minister Carr, who is responsible, obviously, for the TRQs. Right now, he's doing a consultation, because he's doing a full review of the TRQs, including those for CETA, the agreement with Europe, the agreement with the Trans-Pacific region, the WTO and, obviously, NAFTA. We are taking it very seriously, consulting our partners and, obviously, processors.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersInternational tradeMain estimates 2019-2020BevShipleyLambton—Kent—MiddlesexBevShipleyLambton—Kent—Middlesex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[English]Yes.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersInternational tradeMain estimates 2019-2020BevShipleyLambton—Kent—MiddlesexBevShipleyLambton—Kent—Middlesex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[English]Yes.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersInternational tradeMain estimates 2019-2020BevShipleyLambton—Kent—MiddlesexBevShipleyLambton—Kent—Middlesex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]A minute is fine, but not an hour.PatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakePatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1155)[Translation]Of course.PatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakePatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1200)[English]Yes, absolutely. I think I can say that we have, within our business risk management tools, the AgriRecovery program, which specifically targets extreme weather events. The request has to come from a province. When they have seen a drought, a fire or a flood, for example, the province will open the file and ask for the funds. For these types of programs, there is no limited envelope. Am I okay when I say that? Yes, the amount of money that will be made available to our farmers is related to the demand.AgriRecovery ProgramClimate change and global warmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersMain estimates 2019-2020Risk managementAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1200)[English]It's not a closed envelope for that type of program.AgriRecovery ProgramClimate change and global warmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersMain estimates 2019-2020Risk managementAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1200)[English]Of course.AgriRecovery ProgramClimate change and global warmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersMain estimates 2019-2020Risk managementAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—Langford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88449Marie-ClaudeBibeauHon.Marie-Claude-BibeauCompton—StansteadLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BibeauMarie-Claude_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: (1200)[English]As well, we're investing a lot in innovation and trying to find ways to be more resilient, obviously, and having a very strong climate plan to fight climate change overall.AgriRecovery ProgramClimate change and global warmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersMain estimates 2019-2020Risk managementAlistairMacGregorCowichan—Malahat—LangfordPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1225)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chair.My thanks to the witnesses for coming to answer our questions.My question goes to Mr. Forbes or Ms. Walker.In the list of transfer payments for 2019-2020, an amount of $2.5 million has been allocated to support a new program, the living laboratories initiative.Can you tell us about this initiative? What is it, exactly?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodLiving Laboratories InitiativeMain estimates 2019-2020Research and researchersPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakeChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1230)[Translation]What is the goal of the initiative?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodLiving Laboratories InitiativeMain estimates 2019-2020Research and researchersChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1230)[Translation]How will you evaluate that? Do you feel that it will improve things a lot?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodLiving Laboratories InitiativeMain estimates 2019-2020Research and researchersChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1230)[Translation]Is the funding for the initiative recurrent?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodLiving Laboratories InitiativeMain estimates 2019-2020Research and researchersChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1230)[Translation]Will farmers have to submit an application each year?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodLiving Laboratories InitiativeMain estimates 2019-2020Research and researchersChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1230)[Translation]Ms. Walker, do you want to add something?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodLiving Laboratories InitiativeMain estimates 2019-2020Research and researchersChrisForbesChristineWalker//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58806EvaNassifEva-NassifVimyLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NassifEva_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Eva Nassif: (1230)[Translation]Thank you.ChristineWalkerPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88493Jean-ClaudePoissantJean-Claude-PoissantLa PrairieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PoissantJeanClaude_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Poissant (La Prairie, Lib.): (1230)[Translation]My thanks to the witnesses for being here and for giving us information to supplement everything the Minister told us earlier.I would like to go back to the living laboratories initiative.I had an opportunity to announce a project similar to that in the region next to mine. Fourteen producers are going to take part in a study on protecting organic soils. I can tell you that those producers will have a financial role in the study. So the laboratory really is a living one.However, I would like to know if you meet regularly with Farm Credit Canada, FCC, to discuss the price of land and equipment, which is constantly rising, and ways in which we can support our producers.Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodLiving Laboratories InitiativeMain estimates 2019-2020Parliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberResearch and researchersPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakeChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88493Jean-ClaudePoissantJean-Claude-PoissantLa PrairieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PoissantJeanClaude_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Poissant: (1230)[Translation]Okay.The long-term health of our agriculture is something that is particularly close to my heart. You talked about the psychological distress of our producers. I know that a report was submitted and that it contains recommendations.Can you tell us a little more about how things are going?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersMain estimates 2019-2020Mental healthParliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88493Jean-ClaudePoissantJean-Claude-PoissantLa PrairieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PoissantJeanClaude_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Poissant: (1230)[Translation]We submitted a report with a number of recommendations. Can you tell us a little more about what is going to be happening with those recommendations?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersMain estimates 2019-2020Mental healthParliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88493Jean-ClaudePoissantJean-Claude-PoissantLa PrairieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PoissantJeanClaude_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Poissant: (1230)[Translation]I would also like to hear what you have to say about the next generation of farmers. As I have just said, the long-term health of agriculture is particularly close to my heart. Is there a next generation? Are there sufficient programs to attract a next generation?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodFarming and farmersMain estimates 2019-2020Parliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberYoung peopleChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88493Jean-ClaudePoissantJean-Claude-PoissantLa PrairieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PoissantJeanClaude_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Poissant: (1235)[Translation]We want our exports to go from $64 billion to $75 billion by 2025.What more can we do to achieve that objective?Department of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020Parliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88493Jean-ClaudePoissantJean-Claude-PoissantLa PrairieLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/PoissantJeanClaude_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Jean-Claude Poissant: (1235)[Translation]Thank you.Parliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberChrisForbesPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1235)[Translation]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.Thank you for joining us today, Mr. Forbes and Ms. Walker.The Minister mentioned earlier that there were exchanges with China yesterday.Can you tell us at which level those exchanges were held and who took part in the discussions?Canadian Food Inspection AgencyChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020PatFinniganMiramichi—Grand LakeChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1235)[Translation]Things are still happening at director level.Canadian Food Inspection AgencyChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020ChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1235)[Translation]That is good, but did the president of the agency or yourself not participate in those discussions?Canadian Food Inspection AgencyChinaDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodExportsMain estimates 2019-2020ChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1235)[Translation]Very good, thank you.I would like us to talk about the regulations on transporting animals. Across the industry, we are told that you are in the process of conducting a study and that the results will be known in a year and a half. But a decision has been made.Do your two organizations talk to each other? What is going on? How do we explain that you are conducting such an exhaustive study?The entire industry is ready to make use of your results. Everyone I have talked to has said that they will trust the results of your studies if they are convincing. But it would seem that you are working in isolation. One part is not talking to the other part.Tell me what the problem is, Mr. Forbes.AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1240)[Translation]I agree, Mr. Forbes, but I know you are devoting a lot of resources to that study at the moment. If we are adopting the new regulations before we have the results of the study, what is the point of continuing it?AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1240)[Translation]Let me follow up with you on that. To be consistent, you would need to have waited to have all the data from all the studies. A lot of public money is being invested in this.AnimalsDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020TransportationChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1240)[Translation]Consistency, to use your word, would have meant waiting for all the data from all the studies before undertaking actions that can have very serious consequences.I understand, but I will change the subject.We are in the second phase of the Dairy Farm Investment Program, or the milk lottery, as I call it. We know that money has been distributed. When will the list of those who have received money be available? Will it be possible to send it to the members of the committee? That would be really appreciated.Dairy Farm Investment ProgramDairy farmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020ChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1240)[Translation]Can you list how much of the $350 million has been spent and how much is left?Dairy Farm Investment ProgramDairy farmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020ChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1240)[Translation]I know that you have to send us information on the people who have received grants. When do you anticipate that?Dairy Farm Investment ProgramDairy farmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020ChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1240)[Translation]You can just send them to us. It's so that we know the status of those envelopes.Dairy Farm Investment ProgramDairy farmingDepartment of Agriculture and Agri-FoodMain estimates 2019-2020ChrisForbesChrisForbes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1240)[Translation]I have 15 seconds left.As I said earlier, I will let Mr. Shipley finish.ChrisForbesBevShipleyLambton—Kent—Middlesex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1240)[English]No, you have more than a minute.BevShipleyLambton—Kent—MiddlesexBevShipleyLambton—Kent—Middlesex//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88541LucBertholdLuc-BertholdMégantic—L'ÉrableConservative CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/BertholdLuc_CPC.jpgInterventionMr. Luc Berthold: (1250)[Translation]Things will be well organized there.ArianeGagné-FrégeauPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos (Pontiac, Lib.): (0930)[English]Thank you. I'll be sharing my time, if there's any left, with Member Graham. I'm going to be very clipped in my questions; we only have a very short period of time.My first question is to our hard-working public servants at the CRTC. Thank you for being here.My 41 mayors in the Pontiac are very frustrated with the state of Internet. Our constituents are extremely dissatisfied. When I knock on doors, this is a top issue. I would be telling an untruth if I didn't say that the disappointment was palpable when I had to inform constituents that the first call for applications for the CRTC broadband fund was only open to the Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut. Can you please explain that?Broadband FundBroadband Internet servicesM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple RidgeChristopherSeidl//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (0935)[English]I appreciate that. I have questions in the back of my mind. Perhaps this could be responded to in writing. On what basis was that determination of greatest need made? It can't have been made on a population basis. I'm just trying to channel the frustrations of so many constituents and mayors. I don't mean to direct it toward the CRTC as an institution, but to the situation.The CRTC's “Let's Talk Broadband” report was finalized in December of 2016. At that time, it was announced that there would be a fund established—all good ideas. It's taken a very long time to get to this point right now, where my constituents and my mayors look at me and say that they still can't even apply for funding through the CRTC.Broadband FundBroadband Internet servicesM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryChristopherSeidlChristopherSeidl//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (0935)[English]To go specifically to the issue of cellular coverage, which has become a major discussion point, particularly around public safety.... This national capital region and my riding of Pontiac have gone through two tornadoes and two floods in the last three years. Your remarks this morning do not address the issue of cellular.I wonder to what extent you think that gaps in wireless coverage...so people can use mobile telephones for any reason, including public safety.... To what extent do you feel like we're on the right path now toward addressing that, with the $750-million fund and the investments that have been made available by our government?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationChristopherSeidlChristopherSeidl//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (0935)[English] I have two minutes. I don't want to completely run out the clock, so I'll pass it over to member Graham. ChristopherSeidlDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—Labelle//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (0935)[English]Thank you. I appreciate it. To Mr. Ghiz, it's very rare that I'll say this, but I think I agree with everything you've said. With the [Inaudible—Editor], that doesn't happen too often. I appreciate having this opportunity. When the CRTC mandate Minister Bains announced recently talked about competition, my concern was: what is the point of competition, if you don't have service to begin with? The biggest issue I have is this. Mr. Amos' riding and my riding are neighbouring. Together, they are much larger than Belgium. It's a very big territory. I have entire communities that have neither Internet nor cellphones. How do we get those communities connected on cellphones, so that emergency services, as Mr. Amos was talking about, don't have to meet at city hall every hour, and then go back out onto the ground? What's the fastest path to getting proper coverage of all our small towns?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationWilliamAmosPontiacRobertGhiz//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (0940)[English]Thank you. RobertGhizDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)): (0845)[English] Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights as we resume our study on online hate.I would like to welcome Ms. Raitt to the committee as vice-chair for her first meeting.It's an honour and a pleasure to welcome Mr. Kevin Chan, who is the Global Policy Director at Facebook, to our study. Mr. Chan, I want to thank you and Facebook for being willing to participate in our study on online hate. We know that your company takes this seriously, and we really appreciate your being here to educate us on what you are doing.We will start with you. The floor is yours, sir.Hate propagandaInternetKevinChan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0900)[English]Thank you very much for the presentation.We will now go to questions.Ms. Raitt.KevinChanLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0900)[English]He was invited to this committee.LisaRaittHon.MiltonLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0905)[English]Mr. Fraser.LisaRaittHon.MiltonColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0910)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Garrison.KevinChanRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0920)[English]Thank you very much.I think we have time for a couple more questions.Ms. Khalid.KevinChanIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English]We don't have time for another full round, but we do have time for some shorter questions. I think we could probably do four three-minute rounds.Ms. Raitt.IqraKhalidMississauga—Erin MillsLisaRaittHon.Milton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English]Mr. Boissonnault.LisaRaittHon.MiltonRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]Thank you, Mr. Boissonnault. That's very true.Mr. Garrison, it's your turn.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Virani.KevinChanArifViraniParkdale—High Park//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0940)[English] Thank you very much. I think we all share that sense that freedom of expression is very important and we need to balance what we call “hate speech”.If it's okay with colleagues, I have one short question.The definition of “lethal” that I find in the dictionary is “sufficient to cause death”. While I really appreciate this document that's been created for women candidates to encourage them to run and to show that Facebook cares about their safety, I turn to page 8 and I read what Facebook doesn't allow. It does not allow posting of content “about anyone, including a public figure, that contains” the following:Any statements of intent to commit lethal violence, orAny calls for action of lethal violence, orAny statements advocating lethal violenceWhat that means, according to the dictionary, is“sufficient to cause death”. You could say, for example, “I believe that somebody should break both of Anthony Housefather's legs”. That wouldn't be lethal. According to this, it sounds like it would be permitted. I'm wondering why. Again, I believe it's very important. People should be able to say negative things about public figures, but when you're advocating that somebody should be hurt, physically hurt, why does that not stray across the line of Facebook's standards?CensorshipHate crimesHate propagandaInternetMeta Platforms Inc.Social networking sitesKevinChanKevinChan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0940)[English]I'm suggesting that if the case isn't that you're only sticking to “lethal”, you might want to change the wording in this book.CensorshipHate crimesHate propagandaInternetMeta Platforms Inc.Social networking sitesKevinChanKevinChan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0940)[English]Thank you very much, and I thank my colleagues. This is our last public hearing on online hate. We really appreciate that you came here today, Mr. Chan. It's very much appreciated.I'm going to briefly suspend. We're going to clear the room and then we're going into our in camera meeting to prepare our report.[Proceedings continue in camera]KevinChan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen (St. John's East, Lib.): (0905)[English]I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I was wondering if Mr. Christopherson would accept a question under the rules adopted at PROC where I might be able to make a quick interjection—DavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0905)[English]The Simms, without surrendering the floor, so I could just...?Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0905)[English]First, I'd like to thank Mr. Christopherson for bringing this letter. It points to a situation that happened earlier in this Parliament when there were some questions about whistle-blower protections and the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act and the regime there, and I think an audit was referred to the operations and estimates committee. I had an opportunity to sit on this committee as a substitute in that transition.I'd also like to thank Mr. Christopherson for all the great work he's done in his time in Parliament. My understanding is that you're not reoffering this time. Is that correct?Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020MotionsOffice of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0910)[English] Even right to the bitter end, you're taking the bull by the horns on something that's important to you. I think that's wonderful.One of the things I'm trying to wrap my head around as you point to this letter is that I agree that the Auditor General manages their workload and the ability of committees to deal with their information very well. I also agree that cybersecurity is an extremely important topic, but it seems to me there's interplay among the budgets of the various officers of Parliament, and it seems a greater reliance or burden has been shifted to the Auditor General. I'm wondering what your views are on any legislative changes that might be necessary for future Parliaments to make sure the right balance between the budgets is allocated to the different officers of Parliament. Maybe the Auditor General could be allocated more or maybe they wouldn't have to have some type of a matching, and maybe there could be a very quick recommendation to the next Parliament to introduce some legislation to make sure that this gets funded.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0915)[English]That might be a great segue for me to make another point of order under the Simms protocol, if it's permitted, Mr. Chair.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0915)[English]I thought it was like a—DavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0915)[English]You got us good there, so I thought that was a good climax.DavidChristophersonHamilton CentreKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0915)[English]Sure. My point of order is just that I provided some more precise language that I wanted Mr. Christopherson to refresh his mind with, if he could just take five or 10 seconds to read or—KevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0935)[English]I'll just make a point of order. I didn't have this language in both official languages so I wasn't able to share it, but I'll read what I do have in French. It would be two resolutions. [Translation]The first reads as follows: That the Committee recommend that funding to the Office of the Auditor General of Canada be increased annually to the cost of living/inflation rate; and, that the Committee report this recommendation to the House.[English]The second one, which is only in English, is that the committee recommend that the future government reconsider the allocation of funds as between officers of Parliament in order to ensure that the Auditor General is funded to undertake its vital performance audit on the government response to cybersecurity.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès (Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.): (0945)[English]It is precisely about the legacy report. I think that's where we as a committee could leave a mark, a special and lasting legacy.It is precisely on the mechanisms of funding for all officers of Parliament, not just for the Auditor General. We've had this conversation and we've agreed that they shouldn't be a decision of cabinet; they should be a decision of Parliament. The oversight should be in Parliament and not with cabinet.We've agreed on that, I think, and it should be part of our report. It should be part of the legacy that we as a committee leave for whomever comes after us.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020MotionsOffice of the Auditor GeneralKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0945)[English]Exactly.While I understand why Mr. Christopherson is so outraged about this, I would like to put on the record that the government has reinstated funding. As of last year, $8 million a year for five years was added to the budget of the Auditor General. Last year, for example, they didn't even spend the whole budget. There was $2 million left on the table.With respect to the planning you tell me they've gutted because they don't have the funds, we don't know, really, how many reports they're going to do. Right now on the website, yes, there's only one for the fall and two for the winter, but that's clearly not all they're going to do. That's what they usually do. They only put two or three on the website and eventually they develop another work plan. I think we're okay.I understand completely what you're saying. I start with the premise that it shouldn't be cabinet that decides what the budget of the Auditor General is. That's my starting premise. Right now, I can tell you that we won't solve this issue. We won't get that $10 million back—no, not even back, to what they asked. They are getting $8 million a year over five years. That's every year, so it's a 12% increase every year. That's what they are getting.Thank you, Mr. Chair.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0945)[English]We're still here.DavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0945)[English]I wouldn't have any trouble. The problem is that I do want to finish the four reports we have. That's my only concern.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0950)[English]This is probably a good opportunity—DavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (0955)[English]On a point of order, I think we can sweeten the pot for Mr. Christopherson a little. If he agrees to move now into committee report consideration, over the course of the week until Tuesday, the next regularly scheduled meeting, the letter can be discussed. The order of business on Tuesday can begin with the consideration of that letter in case he's not satisfied. At least then he'll get the floor back on this item because it's like another Simms protocol olive branch. It's just so that he appreciates that he is not surrendering anything, but it does allow us to get 45 good minutes on the report consideration. Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0955)[English]Before you go on to how many reports will be ready for Tuesday, if we actually agree on getting the Auditor General back, it will have to be on Tuesday, ideally, will it not?Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (0955)[English]Sorry...?DavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88296NickWhalenNick-WhalenSt. John's EastLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/WhalenNick_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Nick Whalen: (1000)[English]We can even put a motion to the floor to that respect.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreDavidChristophersonHamilton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1000)[English]That's what I was thinking.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentrePatKellyCalgary Rocky Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1000)[English]That's what I meant.Government expendituresMain estimates 2019-2020Office of the Auditor GeneralDavidChristophersonHamilton CentreKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard (Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, Lib.): (0900)[Translation]Thank you for your testimony.My first question goes to Mr. Wong.In 2017, a team of researchers discovered that the old plant was still leaking mercury into the river.Can you tell us whether that is still the case today and, if so, can you describe for us in detail the efforts that are being made to remedy the situation?Environmental contaminationGrassy Narrows First NationMercuryMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. PaulTomWong//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0900)[English]I'm coming back with another question on that.SusanHumphreyYvesRobillardMarc-Aurèle-Fortin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: [Translation] My next question goes to Ms. Humphrey and Mr. Conn.The economic life of the Grassy Narrows region has been greatly affected by the contamination in the river, according to Jamie Benidickson. In his words, the fishing industry, a major source of the residents' food and regular income, has been destroyed.Can you describe for us the economic status of the Grassy Narrows region and the recent trends that have been observed there?Community economic developmentEnvironmental contaminationGrassy Narrows First NationMercuryYvesRobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinKeithConn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0900)[Translation]Mr. Conn, it seems to me that a number of factors have to be considered in order to provide assistance to the Grassy Narrows First Nation: decontaminating the lake, the current contamination from the abandoned plant, building the health care infrastructure, and the health care services themselves.First, can you tell us which level of government is responsible for each of those issues and then talk to us about the relationship you have with the provincial government?Environmental contaminationFederal-provincial-territorial relationsGrassy Narrows First NationMercurySusanHumphreyKeithConn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0905)[Translation]We know that negotiations are underway between the department and the Grassy Narrows First Nation on the construction of a health care centre. Once agreement is reached, how much time will we have to wait before the construction of the health care centre begins?Environmental contaminationGrassy Narrows First NationMedical centresMercuryKeithConnKeithConn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0905)[Translation]Thank you.KeithConnMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (1015)[Translation]Thank you for your testimony.My first question goes to Mr. Miklas.In 2017, researchers discovered that the plant was continuing to leak old mercury into the English and Wabigoon rivers. Can you tell us in more detail about the decontamination work that your ministry has done?Environmental contaminationGrassy Narrows First NationMercuryMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. PaulFrankMiklas//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (1020)[Translation]Once the health care centre is built, it will be essential to provide specialized health care services for the Grassy Narrows First Nation. Since health care falls under provincial jurisdiction, can you tell us whether Ontario is committed to providing those services?Environmental contaminationFederal-provincial-territorial relationsGrassy Narrows First NationHealth care systemMercuryFrankMiklasGrantWedge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (1020)[Translation]That would be appreciated, Mr. Wedge.My next question is general in nature and goes to you all.The disability board dealing with mercury cases in the Grassy Narrows and Islington bands is doing vital work in administering benefits for eligible members. Can you tell us about the board's activities?Disability benefitsEnvironmental contaminationGrassy Narrows First NationMercuryGrantWedgeGrantWedge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (1020)[English]I'll share my time with my colleague.GrantWedgeMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès (Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.): (1655)[English]Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all of you for being here.[Translation]Thank you very much, Minister.[English]I think, considering my ethnic origins, I'll take the bull by the horns and start with Phoenix and try to get from you, Minister, a sort of status report on what has been happening with the whole system, including how the mitigation measures that have been taken are addressing the backlog, and what your expectations are, if you wish, for the next six to 12 months.Department of Public Works and Government ServicesGovernment plans and priorities reportsMain estimates 2019-2020PhoenixShared Services CanadaTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1700)[English]Thank you very much, Minister. That is encouraging news. Let's hope it will continue that way.On the federal science and technology initiative, I'm somewhat bewildered about what it is. Could you please explain to us what the objectives of this initiative are and how would we attract talent to participate in such an initiative?Department of Public Works and Government ServicesGovernment plans and priorities reportsInfrastructureMain estimates 2019-2020Science and technologyShared Services CanadaCarlaQualtroughHon.DeltaCarlaQualtroughHon.Delta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1700)[English]That's good to hear because, yes, I know that is always an issue, but—PaulGloverTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1700)[English]Does this include the national research centre?TomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—LaniganBillMatthews//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1700)[English]Yes, the council. Sorry. Yes? Okay. Thank you.Thank you very much, I'm done.BillMatthewsTomLukiwskiMoose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès: (1750)[English]But we both are picking on poor Mr. Nicholson.Some hon. members: Oh, oh!YasminRatansiDon Valley EastYasminRatansiDon Valley East//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Ken McDonald (Avalon, Lib.)): (1655)[English] Good afternoon, everyone. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we have a briefing on steelhead salmon in the Fraser River.I apologize to our witnesses, who have been waiting patiently by video conference to join us for testimony today. Unfortunately, we had a bunch of votes, which we have no control over, but we wanted to make sure we had a chance to at least hear from our witnesses this afternoon.Appearing today by video conference we have Mr. Eric Taylor, Professor, Department of Zoology, University of British Columbia. From the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Rebecca Reid, Regional Director General, Pacific region, as well as Andrew Thomson, Regional Director, Fisheries Management. From the Ministry of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development of British Columbia, we have Mr. Robert Bison, Fisheries Stock Assessment Biologist, Wildlife and Ecosystems. From the Steelhead Society of BC, we have Poul Bech, Director.We'll hear from Mr. Taylor first, for seven minutes or less, please.Fraser RiverSteelhead salmonEricTaylor//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1655)[English]Thank you.We'll now go to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I'm not sure if you're sharing your time, but either Rebecca or Andrew, when you're ready, go ahead for seven minutes or less, please.EricTaylorRebeccaReid//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1705)[English] Thank you, Ms. Reid.We'll now go to Mr. Bison for seven minutes or less, please.RebeccaReidRobertBison//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1710)[English] Thank you. We'll now go to Mr. Bech from the Steelhead Society of BC, for seven minutes or less, please.RobertBisonPoulBech//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1715)[English]Thank you.We'll try to go long enough to get in a full round of questioning. We'll start off with the government side. Mr. Hardie, you have seven minutes or less, please.PoulBechKenHardieFleetwood—Port Kells//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1725)[English]Thank you, Mr. Hardie.Now we'll go to the Conservative side.Mr. Arnold, you have seven minutes or less, please.KenHardieFleetwood—Port KellsMelArnoldNorth Okanagan—Shuswap//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1730)[English]Thank you.Now we'll go to Mr. Johns for seven minutes or less, please.EricTaylorGordJohnsCourtenay—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1740)[English]Thank you for that.Our witnesses are probably limited on time. I don't know if you have 10 minutes more. If so, we could do a three-minute round.I see people nodding their heads. Okay. I'll be strict on the time.We'll go with Mr. Finnigan for three minutes or less, please. PoulBechPatFinniganMiramichi—Grand Lake//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1745)[English]Thank you, Mr. Finnigan.We'll go now to Mr. Calkins for three minutes or less, please.RobertBisonBlaineCalkinsRed Deer—Lacombe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1750)[English]Thank you, Mr. Calkins.EricTaylorBlaineCalkinsRed Deer—Lacombe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1750)[English]We're way over time.Mr. Johns, you have three minutes or less, please.BlaineCalkinsRed Deer—LacombeGordJohnsCourtenay—Alberni//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88283KenMcDonaldKen-McDonaldAvalonLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/McDonaldKen_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1750)[English]Thank you, Mr. Johns.That concludes our testimony and the questioning of our witnesses.I want to say thank you to our witnesses and at the same time apologize for the late start due to votes, but that's part of what we do here. It's unavoidable at times.We're going to suspend now for a minute just to get disconnected and go in camera for a couple of minutes of committee business and to get a couple of budgets approved.[Proceedings continue in camera]RobertBison//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)): (1605)[Translation]We apologize for being late.[English]We had a vote in the chamber. I'm sorry for being late, especially to our witness.Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, as we resume our study of online hate. Today it is an enormous pleasure to be joined by Colin McKay, head of government affairs and public policy at Google Canada. We really appreciate Google's participation and yours to enable us to have a better study. Thank you so much.Mr. McKay, the floor is yours.Hate propagandaInternetColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Thank you very much for your opening statement.We will go to Mr. MacKenzie.ColinMcKayDaveMacKenzieOxford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1615)[English]Absolutely.DaveMacKenzieOxfordDaveMacKenzieOxford//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]You have two minutes, Mr. Barrett.DaveMacKenzieOxfordMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1620)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. McKinnon.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesRonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port Coquitlam//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1625)[Translation]Thank you.Ms. Moore, you have the floor.RonMcKinnonCoquitlam—Port CoquitlamChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, NDP): (1625)[Translation]Thank you.I'd like to invite my colleagues to pick up their phones, if they wish.[English]If you do a quick Google search of the phrase “how to pimp,” there are countless videos available that inform people of how to take part in human trafficking. Why haven't these sites and videos been removed?Hate propagandaHuman traffickingInternetAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1630)[English]How to pimp.ColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1630)[English]Okay. So when you remove those videos and websites explaining how to pimp, is there any information that is transmitted, for example, to police forces or local authorities? If someone has a complete guide explaining how to engage in human trafficking, I think it involves criminal activity. Do you flag the police of that country, for example, and say, “Maybe that guy is involved in something criminal, and you could take a look,” or do you just remove the video because there are just too many of them all the time and you don't have the time to follow up?Hate propagandaHuman traffickingInternetColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1630)[Translation]Okay.In addition, the English keywords are accurate, because most people use that language. However, what about algorithms in other languages that may be used less often, such as French? Is it easier to spread hate if you use a language other than English, because the algorithms for keywords are not as well developed?AlgorithmsArtificial intelligenceHate propagandaInternetLanguagesColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1630)[English]How quickly are you able to remove a video that has already been removed and been modified, for example, using sound that goes faster. They do that. I've often seen that from my daughter. There are people producing Paw Patrol a little faster so that it is not recognized by the system and they are able to publish their video.In terms of hate videos, are you able to quickly remove a video that has already been removed once and has been modified just to avoid those controls?Hate propagandaInternetVideo recordingsColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1630)[Translation]You have one minute left.ColinMcKayChristineMooreAbitibi—Témiscamingue//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/232ChristineMooreChristine-MooreAbitibi—TémiscamingueNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MooreChristine_NPD.jpgInterventionMs. Christine Moore: (1630)[English] Okay.I would like to know a little bit more about the process of reviewing flagged videos, and who reviews them when it's not done by a computer. Also, are the workers reviewing these videos provided with any services, because having to listen to these kinds of things all the time causes a lot of distress to people? What services are you providing to these workers to make sure they do not go crazy from listening to all of these things all the time?Artificial intelligenceHate propagandaInternetMental healthVideo recordingsWorkersAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1635)[English]Thank you very much.Ms. Khalid.ColinMcKayIqraKhalidMississauga—Erin Mills//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1640)[English]Thank you so much.I just have one question to follow up on Ms. Khalid's and Ms. Moore's question. How many of the 10,000 people who do the vetting are based in Canada?Hate propagandaInternetWorkersColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Would it be zero?Hate propagandaInternetWorkersColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Just to follow up the other question that Ms. Moore asked about the French language, I understand that you have translation software. Everybody's seen Google Translate. It's a great help to meet people in a baseline sense, but obviously that's not an effective way to understand the terminology used online. Do you have people with native language skills in all of these multiple languages who put in the search terms? FrenchHate propagandaInternetLanguagesColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English] Let's say French.FrenchHate propagandaInternetLanguagesColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]Okay.Your assistance here today and the fact that Google is willing to work with us in this way is incredibly appreciated, Mr. McKay. I really want to thank you.We have another meeting, but it's in camera. What I would ask is that we take a five-minute suspension, and then we will ask everybody who shouldn't be here to clear the room.[Translation]I want to thank everyone.We'll suspend the meeting for five minutes.ColinMcKayColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (1645)[English]The meeting is adjourned. ColinMcKay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel (Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, NDP): (1640)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Thank you very much to all the witnesses.I must admit that I was surprised to note that the Canada Council for the Arts did not at least provide a response to what was said yesterday.Mr. Cardinal, I believe I saw in the news, yesterday or today, that you were up for a Sterling Award. Congratulations.Do you receive support from the Alberta Foundation for the Arts for your participation in the Edmonton International Fringe Theatre Festival? Has the Canada Council for the Arts provided support to that festival in the past?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityEventsJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthHunterCardinal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1640)[English]Okay, there's no issue.I was congratulating you because you've just received some Sterling award nominations.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityEventsHunterCardinalHunterCardinal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1640)[English]That's really nice, and it concerns your participation in what you wrote for the fringe festival. Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityEventsHunterCardinalHunterCardinal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1640)[English]How is the fringe festival supported? Is it supported by the Alberta Foundation for the Arts? Is it supported by the Canada Council for the Arts? You didn't get direct support for your production. Did the festival receive some support from the Canada Council for the Arts?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityEventsHunterCardinalHunterCardinal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1640)[English]Yes, I can say that it's a very beautiful story, what you just told us today, knowing of the privilege you had to be surrounded by so many caring people around you, and now you want to bring it back to your community, which is outstanding. I think the work that you are doing is truly outstanding.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityEventsHunterCardinalHunterCardinal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1640)[English]My other question will be for CASC. Mr. Growe, first of all, clearly you have a super talent, because I know how serious you try to be. But there is something that makes us smile, even though you described that your mom is sick—Canada Council for the ArtsComediansCulture and creativityHunterCardinalAdamGrowe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1640)[English]You mentioned that comedy, be it in French or English, is not a sector that is recognized by the arts council. As a matter of fact, Canadian comedians have very little recognition. I mean, we all love to laugh with you. We all enjoy a good time. We all enjoy a good Tuesday night on CBC with the comedy shows that we have. However, there is a lack of recognition of the.... Clearly, in Quebec there is more recognition, because of the school, École nationale de l'humour.We've heard many of your arguments, but what would make things easier for you to be recognized by all money funders and the arts council?Canada Council for the ArtsComediansCulture and creativityAdamGroweAdamGrowe//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1645)[English]I'm sorry about that.Thank you.JulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJulieDabrusinToronto—Danforth//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton (Shefford, Lib.): (1710)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I thank all the witnesses for being here today.Ms. Préfontaine, we can see the passion in your eyes and your words. Thank you for your testimony.I think that you received $63,000 from the Canada Council for the Arts two years ago.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthJoëllePréfontaine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1710)[Translation]Is that the only funding you have received recently? Did you receive any money before the government doubled the funding of the Canada Council for the Arts? What did you think of the Canada Council for the Arts' funding request process?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityJoëllePréfontaineJoëllePréfontaine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1710)[Translation]Were you already receiving $63,000 per year?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityJoëllePréfontaineJoëllePréfontaine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1710)[Translation]Okay. Is that an amount you receive annually?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityJoëllePréfontaineJoëllePréfontaine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1710)[Translation]Okay.You are a francophone organization in Alberta. So you are in a minority situation. Are you facing additional challenges as far as the Canada Council for the Arts is concerned?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityJoëllePréfontaineJoëllePréfontaine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1710)[Translation]What is the procedure like?Ms. Petrov, I will have the same question for you.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityJoëllePréfontaineJoëllePréfontaine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1710)[Translation]I have a question that is not related to the Canada Council for the Arts.As you are in a minority situation, I assume that you are entitled to subsidies through funding initiatives supporting official languages. Are you involved with those programs?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityLinguistic minoritiesOfficial languages policyJoëllePréfontaineJoëllePréfontaine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1715)[Translation]So you are making requests for funding under initiatives supporting official languages, including for your translations, right?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityLinguistic minoritiesOfficial languages policyJoëllePréfontaineJoëllePréfontaine//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1715)[Translation]Very well.Ms. Petrov, did I understand correctly that you have worked in three different provinces?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityDecision-making processJoëllePréfontaineAnnemariePetrov//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1715)[Translation]My question is pretty simple.When it comes to the Canada Council for the Arts, have you noted any differences in terms of the process or the funding across the various provinces where you have worked?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityDecision-making processAnnemariePetrovAnnemariePetrov//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58707PierreBretonPierre-BretonSheffordLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/BretonPierre_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Breton: (1715)[Translation]Please do.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityDecision-making processAnnemariePetrovAnnemariePetrov//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1720)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.I thank all of our witnesses for being here.Ms. Préfontaine can understand me well when I speak in French.Mr. Jackson, you can hear the interpretation.Ms. Petrov, you understand French, but you can also use the interpretation to English, no problem.Ms. Préfontaine, your testimony shows all the importance of the theatre, especially when it comes to children. In addition, you provide surtitles, which is a very good idea. You are engaged in cultural mediation in the country in our official languages.I must absolutely stop here to share with my colleagues my inability to understand the report on copyright submitted by the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. I will actually move a motion to that effect.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityJulieDabrusinToronto—DanforthRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1720)[Translation]It may be out of order, but I have already asked for permission to read it. Nice try.Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1720)[Translation]The report of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology does not mention our report at all, despite ministers' letters specifically asking that those reports take each other into account, especially the industry committee's report, as we submitted ours before.In addition, there are major contradictions concerning the cultural community, and people from that community are outraged. They were all very happy with the report we submitted. However, most of the issues they are facing have been ignored by the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. So I feel I have an obligation to move this motion:That the Committee express its dismay that the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology has chosen to ignore this Committee's report on Remuneration Models for Artists and Creative Industries, in addition to ignoring the reference letter to the Industry Committee from the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development, specifically requesting that this Committee's conclusions and “relevant policy considerations” be “accounted for in (their) final report” on Copyright; and that the Committee regret the Government's mismanagement of the mandatory Copyright Review, leading to two contradictory reports, four months before an election, two years late, with no Copyright reform legislation in sight. I am convinced that people from the creative community can understand that certain things like these, unfortunately, must be done in a committee. As a lover of arts and culture, of Canadian content and of Quebec content, when I see that people feel poorly served by an organization as central as the Canada Council for the Arts, it is definitely disturbing.Mr. Jackson or Ms. Petrov, changes have been made to the structure by reducing the number of programs and by grouping them into six large programs. To what extent are your problems directly related to that restructuring?Have you received any signs from the Canada Council for the Arts that the situation would be remedied?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreJonJackson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1725)[Translation]Ms. Petrov, what do you think about the situation I just described?Canada Council for the ArtsCulture and creativityJonJacksonAnnemariePetrov//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71447PierreNantelPierre-NantelLongueuil—Saint-HubertIndependentQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/NantelPierre_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Pierre Nantel: (1725)[English]There was a big part that was not directed towards you.AnnemariePetrovAnnemariePetrov//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin (Trois-Rivières, NDP): (1130)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to each of our guests for joining us.I will not be asking a lot of questions about the value of the projects you are presenting, because they speak for themselves. But I have a lot of questions about the way in which you perceive the program and the way in which it assists you.I will start with Mr. Hamilton.When I read the description of the project for which you received funding, I find that it is strangely similar to projects that are going on in Trois-Rivières, for example.Since this study began, one of the comments that always comes up is that it is difficult to make each of the economic corridors fluid. The projects that have been presented are business projects. In the case of the Port of Hamilton, for example, you are talking about finding ways to increase its effectiveness, its capacity and its performance. I don't see any coordination between the various participants in an economic corridor that will achieve that fluidity. They all seem to be working separately, because they each have to present one project of their own. Would it not be preferable for organizations or groups to present projects designed to achieve that fluidity, meaning the capacity of freight to move quickly and effectively from one end of the chain to the other?National Trade Corridors FundPorts and harboursTradeTransportation infrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekIanHamilton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1130)[Translation]Thank you very much.Mr. Anablak, from what I understood earlier, you said that you had to deal with the rejection of your first application, having presented a project in its entirety. The funds did not allow you to move forward. It was then suggested that you present your project again, but in stages. I have a problem with the fund. The government announced an amount of $2 billion, which is a substantial figure that sounds very grand. However, the amount is spread over a period of 11 years, which means that people face exactly the same situation as you.Would it not be preferable for the government to maintain its decision to invest $2 billion, but to do it over two years, rather than asking you to come back each year, with a little bit of a project each time? The overall amount would remain the same.National Trade Corridors FundTradeTransportation infrastructureIanHamiltonStanleyAnablak//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1130)[Translation]Thank you. Your answer was short, but clear.I have another question. I have studied your project. You talked about a deep-water port in Coronation Gulf, in the Northwest Passage. You also talked about an ice road that would link the port to communities further south.A few weeks ago, we found out that northern Canada is warming up twice as fast as the south. That being the case, is that ice road really a viable infrastructure in the medium and long term? For how many months per year could the ice road be used?National Trade Corridors FundTradeTransportation infrastructureWinter roadsStanleyAnablakScottNorthey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1135)[Translation]Thank you for that additional clarification.I would have preferred if the committee had visited the north. The reality you live in is exceptional, and people who spend their lives in the south have a poor grasp of it.Apart from the increase of $400 million, does the financial envelope specifically for the north mean that you will be able to compete with those in the south? National Trade Corridors FundNorthern CanadaTradeTransportation infrastructureScottNortheyScottNorthey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71337AngeloIaconoAngelo-IaconoAlfred-PellanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/IaconoAngelo_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Angelo Iacono (Alfred-Pellan, Lib.): (1135)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.Mr. Stanley, in your opening remarks you alluded to remote communities not being able to compete or having difficulties with respect to the urban communities. Are you aware of the northern call project?National Trade Corridors FundNorthern CanadaTradeTransportation infrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekStanleyAnablak//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71337AngeloIaconoAngelo-IaconoAlfred-PellanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/IaconoAngelo_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Angelo Iacono: (1135)[English]The goal of the northern call project is to fund projects that would help to improve safety, foster economy and social development, and build on existing investments in the territories. The deadline was March 29, 2019. Are you aware of this?National Trade Corridors FundNorthern CanadaTradeTransportation infrastructureStanleyAnablakStanleyAnablak//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71337AngeloIaconoAngelo-IaconoAlfred-PellanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/IaconoAngelo_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Angelo Iacono: (1135)[English]Yes. Did you apply to that?National Trade Corridors FundNorthern CanadaTradeTransportation infrastructureStanleyAnablakStanleyAnablak//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71337AngeloIaconoAngelo-IaconoAlfred-PellanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/IaconoAngelo_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Angelo Iacono: (1135)[Translation]In your opinion, how could the national trade corridor fund be improved in order to address the realities of Canada's northern communities?National Trade Corridors FundNorthern CanadaTradeTransportation infrastructureStanleyAnablakScottNorthey//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71337AngeloIaconoAngelo-IaconoAlfred-PellanLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/IaconoAngelo_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Angelo Iacono: (1135)[English] Thank you.I'll give my remaining time to my colleague Mr. Sikand.ScottNortheyGaganSikandMississauga—Streetsville//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1230)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.My thanks to our guests for joining us.If I may, I will start with you, Ms. Field.Since this meeting began, there is some consensus that the fund seems satisfactory. I imagine that receiving funding for their projects helps to make people happy and ready to move forward. However, you tell us that, of the 17 rail companies that your association represents, only seven proposed projects. Of those, three have already been rejected and three others are waiting for an answer. Those numbers seem very low to me. Could it be that the program is simply not designed for you?I was surprised to hear you say that one of your railways had been devalued by 50%. Is that also the case for class 1 railways? Is it your impression that the program's approach is not tailored to your needs?National Trade Corridors FundRail transportation and railwaysTradeTransportation infrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekAllisonField//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1230)[Translation]Presently, we are looking for fluidity in the delivery chain between point A and the terminal. The railways are important players, of course, but are you telling me that, even within that sector, it is difficult to get from point A to point B and to coordinate projects in order to achieve greater fluidity? For example, are there discussions between your association, CN and CP, in order to ensure greater fluidity of freight shipments?National Trade Corridors FundRail transportation and railwaysTradeTransportation infrastructureAllisonFieldAllisonField//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1230)[Translation]Thank you.I would like to take a few minutes to talk to Mr. Xotta.The Vancouver-Fraser Port Authority seems to be playing its cards well in terms of this funding program. However, when I hear that we are losing our international reputation a little, I have questions about the program itself. Billions of dollars have been announced over a long period. I wonder whether it would not be preferable to have the entire sum from the outset, in order to set our infrastructures up properly. In Canada's trade corridors, not just the ones in the West, but also those in the Atlantic, the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and the Great Lakes, I don't think our companies are competing among themselves. The companies competing with them are mainly American.Are we in the process of falling behind and never being able to catch up?National Trade Corridors FundPorts and harboursTradeTransportation infrastructureAllisonFieldPeterXotta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/71560RobertAubinRobert-AubinTrois-RivièresNew Democratic Party CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/AubinRobert_NDP.jpgInterventionMr. Robert Aubin: (1235)[Translation]In 30 seconds, I would just like to know whether Ms. Baratta shares that optimism or whether she has a different opinion.National Trade Corridors FundPorts and harboursTradeTransportation infrastructureJudy A.SgroHon.Humber River—Black CreekLisaBaratta//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham (Laurentides—Labelle, Lib.): (0945)[English]I would just like to say that I agree in principle about what you want to do. That is the half of M-208 that SECU was supposed to deal with, and SECU is starting to deal with it.I propose that we discuss it at the end of the meeting so that we don't lose our time with our witnesses, but I do want to discuss that further. It is what SECU was supposed to be dealing with, as it's half of the M-208 motion.CellphonesCommittee businessEmergenciesMotionsDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple RidgeDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (0945)[English]Not with the witnesses here. BrianMasseWindsor WestDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (0945)[English]That's not procedurally valid. BrianMasseWindsor WestDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (0950)[English]Thank you to the witnesses. I would like to apologize to you for that little delay. This is what we're talking about, how to deal with these services. I think that's already the purpose of what we're doing here. I just have a couple of quick questions and then I'll hand it off to others, because I know a lot of people want to ask questions today. Xplornet, you have a lot of LTE antennas in my riding and a lot all across the country, as you discussed with Mr. Albas a minute ago. C.J., what is the possibility in the long term of using the fixed mobile services infrastructure for mobile service as well? Is that a possibility, or are they two totally different worlds?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple RidgeChristine J.Prudham//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (0950)[English]Okay, that's wonderful. For RightMesh, I'm going to ask the same type of question. I was surprised to be in Manawan last year, a reserve north of my riding, where everyone had cellphone service through WiFi on the reserve, but there is no actual cellphone service per se. Using your technology and your systems, could we go so far as to stick mobile phones on top of a tower and have repeaters around an area that way to create a network?M-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationChristine J.PrudhamJohnLyotier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (0950)[English]I would have a lot more—Sorry, go ahead. JohnLyotierJohnLyotier//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88504David de BurghGrahamDaviddeBurgh-GrahamLaurentides—LabelleLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/GrahamDavid_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. David de Burgh Graham: (0950)[English] That's fair enough.I have a lot more questions, but I don't have a lot of time, so I'll pass some of my time to Mr. Massé.JohnLyotierRémiMasséAvignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88397RémiMasséRémi-MasséAvignon—La Mitis—Matane—MatapédiaLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MasséRémi_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Rémi Massé (Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, Lib.): (0950)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. de Burgh Graham.Mr. Nepton, in your presentation, you mentioned that the carriers should not be the only ones to designate the locations to be served. You said that perhaps elected officials should be involved in this process. I would like to hear your comments on the CRTC's strategy, which has established a map with hexagons to determine which areas are served and which are not.According to you, is this map appropriate to try to specify the areas to be served and the funds needed to provide these areas with infrastructure or technology? M-208Parliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberPrivate Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryDavid de BurghGrahamLaurentides—LabelleAndréNepton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88397RémiMasséRémi-MasséAvignon—La Mitis—Matane—MatapédiaLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/42/MasséRémi_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Rémi Massé: (0955)[Translation]Thank you. Your feedback was greatly appreciated.Parliamentary Secretary — Non-Voting MemberAndréNeptonDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos (Pontiac, Lib.): (1000)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Chairman.I thank the committee for this opportunity. I also thank the witnesses for their participation.For my part, I would like to focus the discussion with Mr. Nepton on the role of our municipalities in the development of wireless cellular coverage. When I talk to the mayors—and there are more than 40 in the Pontiac riding—the feeling expressed is one of lack of control and frustration with the network and the relationships with the companies, which are not necessarily there to involve our municipalities directly and closely. If they do so, it is rather because it is in their own interest and not in the public interest.In your opinion, how can we best involve our municipalities in the decision-making process regarding wireless telecommunications, first, and broadband Internet service, secondly?Broadband Internet servicesM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple RidgeAndréNepton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1000)[Translation]Does this also apply to municipalities in western Quebec and the Outaouais?Broadband Internet servicesM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryWireless communicationAndréNeptonAndréNepton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1005)[Translation]I have one last question in the 40 seconds I have left.I am particularly interested in how, in our government's future programs, we could better support our municipalities and allow them to participate in this process. For example, should we consider providing them with the services of engineers or specialists to save them these costs?Cities and townsM-208Private Members' MotionsRural communitiesTelecommunications and telecommunications industryAndréNeptonAndréNepton//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (1005)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Nepton.AndréNeptonDanRuimyPitt Meadows—Maple Ridge//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair (Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.)): (0845)[English] Good morning, everyone.Welcome to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, as we resume our study on online hate.We have a couple of procedural things to start with. We are going to be naming a Conservative vice-chair of the committee, and I'm going to turn it over to the clerk to do that.[Translation]Mr. Clerk, you have the floor.Committee businessElection of the Chair and Vice-ChairsMarc-OlivierGirard//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0845)[English]Mr. Garrison.Marc-OlivierGirardRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0845)[English]I have received an email from her saying she is prepared to accept.Committee businessElection of the Chair and Vice-ChairsRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—SookeRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0845)[English]She is nominated in absentia, but we will be welcoming her on Thursday.Mr. Boissonnault.Committee businessElection of the Chair and Vice-ChairsMarc-OlivierGirardRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]I believe this motion is receivable and it's related to the online hate study we're doing right now, since it relates to a meeting that we did on online hate, so the 48-hour rule wouldn't apply. I will rule this as receivable.Mr. Boissonnault, the floor is yours if you want to speak to your motion.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]Thank you, Mr. Boissonnault.Mr. Garrison, then Mr. Brassard.Mr. Garrison, the floor is yours.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]Thank you. Mr. Brassard.RandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—SookeJohnBrassardBarrie—Innisfil//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]Thank you.You can't call the question—I'm just going to point that out—but I didn't see anybody else who had their hand up to speak.Mr. Garrison, I'm sorry.... JohnBrassardBarrie—InnisfilRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English] Thank you.I saw Mr. Boissonnault's hand and Mr. Barrett's hand. We also have witnesses. I'm just pointing it out.RandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—SookeRandyBoissonnaultEdmonton Centre//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0850)[English]Thank you.Mr. Barrett.RandyBoissonnaultEdmonton CentreMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English]Mr. Barrett, I appreciate that. The chair can't call the question as long as there's a member who wishes to speak. I don't see any other members who wish to speak at this point, so we can move to the question.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English]There's a request for a recorded vote. A “yea” would be a yes to Mr. Boissonnault's motion and a “nay” would be against.(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])The Chair: The motion is adopted.Mr. Garrison.CensorshipCooper, MichaelDecisions in committeeMembers' remarksMotionsReferences to membersRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—SookeRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English]It is a receivable motion, which is non-debatable and non-amendable, according to the clerk.Is this on a point of order, Mr. Barrett?RandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—SookeMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English]Let's call it a question of information, to be fair. I thought I had seen interest in this meeting, so I suggested that it be televised. At this point, there's a receivable motion on the floor, non-debatable and non-amendable, to not televise—MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English]Mr. Garrison, I was allowing it because Mr. Barrett was genuinely curious. You put forward a motion that is non-debatable and non-amendable. I suggest that we probably should get to a vote so that we can get to the witnesses one way or the other, if that's okay, since this is non-debatable and non-amendable.Yes, Mr. Fraser.RandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—SookeColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English]Yes. I totally understand that.ColinFraserWest NovaColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English]Yes. In case there is any confusion, I totally understand that your motion is that the meeting remain completely public and that we simply have the audio recorded; it won't be televised. I think that's understood.Again, this is a non-debatable, non-amendable motion, and we will go to a vote. Does anyone want a recorded vote?ColinFraserWest NovaRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0855)[English] We will not televise the rest of this meeting.I will suspend while we move to an audio recording, after which we will start with the witnesses, hopefully.(0855)(0900)RandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—SookeAnthonyHousefatherMount Royal//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0900)[English] Now we will move to our distinguished panel of witnesses for today. As individuals, we have Ms. Lindsay Shepherd, Mr. John Robson and Mr. Mark Steyn. Welcome.Each of the witnesses will speak in turn.Ms. Shepherd, you're first on the list. We're going to go in the order of the agenda. The floor is yours, ma'am.Hate propagandaInternetAnthonyHousefatherMount RoyalLindsayShepherd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0905)[English]Thank you very much, Ms. Shepherd. Mr. Robson, the floor is yours.LindsayShepherdJohnRobson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0915)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Steyn, the floor is yours.JohnRobsonMarkSteyn//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0925)[English]Thank you very much to all of the witnesses.We're now going to questions. We're going to start with Mr. Barrett.MarkSteynMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0930)[English]Thank you very much.Mr. Fraser.MarkSteynColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]Ms. Shepherd, do you want to respond at all to that?NathanielErskine-SmithBeaches—East YorkLindsayShepherd//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]Mr. Garrison.LindsayShepherdJohnRobson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]While I appreciate it, he made a statement and I asked her because she was referenced in the statement.I'm sure you'll have—JohnRobsonJohnRobson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0935)[English]Oh, was that on the Criminal Code?JohnRobsonJohnRobson//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0940)[English] Thank you very much.Mr. Garrison.JohnRobsonRandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—Sooke//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0945)[English] He didn't ask any questions, Mr. Steyn. It's a member's prerogative to make a statement and not ask questions.Mr. Ehsassi is next.RandallGarrisonEsquimalt—Saanich—SookeAliEhsassiWillowdale//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0950)[English]Thank you. The time has elapsed.I want to thank all of our witnesses today. One of the important parts of discourse is that we try to do so reasonably even if we strongly disagree and, hopefully, we continue to do that.I really appreciate very much all of you being here today.We have an in camera meeting that comes up to discuss a report.Mr. Barrett, did you have something before we do that?MarkSteynMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0950)[English]Would that be related to the Google meeting this afternoon?MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0950)[English]Sorry, witnesses, I will thank you in a second.It's a non-debatable, non-amendable motion to not televise the meeting this afternoon with the representatives from Google.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0950)[English]It's scheduled to be televised.MichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau LakesColinFraserWest Nova//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88558AnthonyHousefatherAnthony-HousefatherMount RoyalLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/HousefatherAnthony_Lib.jpgInterventionThe Chair: (0950)[English]We will have a recorded vote. If you vote yes, you're voting not to televise the meeting with Google. If you vote no, you're voting to televise it.(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 1 [See Minutes of Proceedings])The Chair: The motion carried. We will not televise the meeting with Google.Again, I want to thank the witnesses.We will now take a short break, clear the room, and we will reconvene in camera.[Proceedings continue in camera]Decisions in committeeMotionsParliamentary broadcastingRecorded divisionsMichaelBarrettLeeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/58621AlexandraMendèsAlexandra-MendèsBrossard—Saint-LambertLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendèsAlexandra_Lib.jpgInterventionMrs. Alexandra Mendès (Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.): (1005)[English]We'll have to come back on Thursday, because I really have to go. I have to park my car before we vote, because parking will—KevinSorensonHon.Battle River—CrowfootKevinSorensonHon.Battle River—Crowfoot//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos (Pontiac, Lib.): (0840)[English]Thank you, Chair.Thank you, Minister and your hard-working public servants. It's always appreciated when you come here to discuss budget matters, particularly given the amounts that have been invested in our indigenous peoples all across this country. This is a great opportunity to talk more about it.I want to share my time with Mr. Eyking. The topic I want to go into more deeply is around the Canadian Roots Exchange. You expressed some enthusiasm for that program. I, myself, was very enthusiastic when I had the opportunity to announce funding, with a constituent of mine by the name of Geoff Green, who is the founder of Students on Ice and who is well known for working with Inuit youth and bringing southern youth closer to Inuit youth, and vice versa. The funding that we announced, which was, I believe, somewhere in the neighbourhood of $660,000, was through the Canada Service Corps, which is another fabulous initiative not falling within your purview that is connecting our northern youth to opportunities around democratic empowerment.I wonder if you could speak to the indigenous youth programming here with the Canadian Roots Exchange and any other youth programming that you think is really important. In my view, our government's support for indigenous youth is at the core of what we're doing.Aboriginal peoplesAboriginal policyDepartment of Indian Affairs and Northern DevelopmentMain estimates 2019-2020Young peopleMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. PaulCarolynBennettHon.Toronto—St. Paul's//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/89527WilliamAmosWilliam-AmosPontiacLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/43/AmosWilliam_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. William Amos: (0845)[English] Thank you, Minister. I'll now pass the rest of my time over to Member Eyking.CarolynBennettHon.Toronto—St. Paul'sMarkEykingHon.Sydney—Victoria//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard (Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, Lib.): (0915)[Translation]Good morning, Minister Bennett.Thank you for your presentation.The work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has opened the eyes of many Canadians to the terrible realities of Indian residential schools. I'm proud that our government is firmly committed to implementing the commission's calls to action. These calls to action set out a roadmap for reconciliation not only for all levels of government, civil society, educational and health care facilities and private sector businesses, but also for all Canadians.As you said in your remarks, budget 2019 contains a number of investments to help your department implement the commission's calls to action. Can you tell us more about this?Action Plan to Address Family Violence and Violent Crimes Against Aboriginal Women and GirlsDepartment of Indian Affairs and Northern DevelopmentMain estimates 2019-2020MaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. PaulCarolynBennettHon.Toronto—St. Paul's//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0920)[Translation]Thank you.How do these investments build on the measures already taken by the government as part of the whole-of-government approach that you're talking about?Department of Indian Affairs and Northern DevelopmentMain estimates 2019-2020Whole-of-government approachCarolynBennettHon.Toronto—St. Paul'sCarolynBennettHon.Toronto—St. Paul's//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0920)[Translation]My constituents want to be better informed of the government's ongoing progress in taking these essential steps towards reconciliation. The government is monitoring the progress in the implementation of the calls to action. Can you tell us more about this?Action Plan to Address Family Violence and Violent Crimes Against Aboriginal Women and GirlsDepartment of Indian Affairs and Northern DevelopmentMain estimates 2019-2020CarolynBennettHon.Toronto—St. Paul'sCarolynBennettHon.Toronto—St. Paul's//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0920)[Translation]Thank you.CarolynBennettHon.Toronto—St. Paul'sMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88299SeamusO'ReganHon.Seamus-O-ReganSt. John's South—Mount PearlLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OReganSeamus_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Indigenous Services): (0930)[English]Thank you, Madam Chair.(0935)[Translation]I'm pleased to be appearing once more before the committee to discuss the main estimates of Indigenous Services Canada.I'd like to begin by acknowledging that we're on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.I'm joined by Jean-François Tremblay, deputy minister; and Paul Thoppil, chief finances, results and delivery officer.[English] Now if my French didn't wake you up....Also, I am also pleased to have Valerie Gideon here.Department of Indigenous ServicesMain estimates 2019-2020MaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. PaulSeamusO'ReganHon.St. John's South—Mount Pearl//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88299SeamusO'ReganHon.Seamus-O-ReganSt. John's South—Mount PearlLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OReganSeamus_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Seamus O'Regan: Before getting into my remarks, I would like to, first of all, thank members of the committee for their work over the last month studying Bill C-92 and the proposed amendments. The amendments accepted last week from all sides strengthened this bill. As many of you know, I was glad to see that it passed third reading last night unanimously. Thank you very much. Your hard work on this was really appreciated.A vital component of our government's renewed relationship with indigenous peoples is our commitment to take action and dismantle the colonial structures of the past. Since the Prime Minister's announcement on August 28, 2017, my officials and Minister Bennett's officials have been working hard to establish the necessary structures and processes to make this transformation a reality.In 2019-20, we look forward to dissolving Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada and in its place creating Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada as one department and Indigenous Services Canada as another. This change will better enable the government to continue its work on a renewed relationship with indigenous peoples based on recognition of rights, respect, co-operation and partnership. It better positions the government to build that relationship while closing the socio-economic gaps between indigenous and non-indigenous people and improving the quality of life for first nations, Inuit and Métis people. It finally responds to a very clear recommendation by the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples.Our focus at Indigenous Services Canada is working with partners to improve access to high-quality services for indigenous people. Our vision is to support and empower indigenous peoples to independently deliver services and address socio-economic conditions in their communities as they move forward on the path to self-determination.As Minister of Indigenous Services, I am continuing the important work of improving the quality of services delivered to first nations, Inuit and Métis. This includes ensuring a consistent, high-quality and distinctions-based approach to the delivery of these services. A rigorous results and delivery approach is being adopted, focused on improving outcomes for indigenous people. Over time it is our goal that indigenous peoples will directly deliver programs and services to their peoples. We are working with partners to do this. I am working my way out of a job.I would like to turn your attention to the reason that I am here today. I am now pleased to present to you my department's main estimates for 2019-20, which would total $12.3 billion if approved by Parliament. The 2019-20 main estimates reflect a net increase of about $2.9 billion, or 32%, compared to last year's main estimates. The net increase in budgetary spending primarily reflects the continuation of our investments in budgets 2016, 2017 and 2018 and in our most recent budget: all in all, investments totalling $21.3 billion to support stronger indigenous communities and to improve socio-economic outcomes.Here are a few examples of where this year's increase will help.There is $404.1 million in renewed funding for Jordan's principle: supporting children who need orthodontics, medical transportation, respite, land-based culture camps, medical supplies and equipment, educational assistance, mentorship, wheelchair ramps, vehicles, nutritional supplements.There is an increase of $481.5 million for the first nations water and waste-water enhanced program, improving monitoring and testing of on-reserve community drinking water, and building on investments that have not only led to the lifting of 85 long-term drinking water advisories since 2015, but that also keep us on track to lift all LTDWAs by March 2021.[Translation]There will be an increase of $357.9 million related to non-insured health benefits for first nations people and Inuit.There will be an increase of $324.8 million for infrastructure projects in indigenous communities.(0940)[English]There is an increase of $317 million for the first nations child and family services program, ensuring the actual costs of first nations child and family services agencies are covered fully, but also supporting initiatives to keep children and families together.There is an increase of $300.2 million for first nations elementary and secondary education, supporting a renewed approach for K-to-12 education on reserve as co-developed by us and the Assembly of First Nations. There is an increase of $113.6 million to build healthier first nations and Inuit communities, including our work to eliminate tuberculosis in Inuit Nunangat by 2030. And there is an increase of $101.1 million to advance the new fiscal relationship with first nations under the Indian Act. These investments continue to build on the work we have already done to foster a renewed relationship based on respect, co-operation and partnership. Together with indigenous partners, we are working hard to improve the quality of life for first nations, Inuit and Métis people. Through budget 2019, we are making investments in first nations and Inuit health, social development, education and infrastructure. In addition to Jordan's principle and ensuring first nations children now receive the services they need when they need them, our investments in the child first initiative ensure that Inuit children have access to the essential government-funded health, social and educational products, services and supports that they need when they need them.Budget 2019 proposes an investment of $220 million over five years to the Inuit-specific child first initiative, which will address the immediate needs of Inuit children. This investment would also support the ongoing work among the Government of Canada, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, Inuit regions, and provinces and territories to develop a long-term Inuit-specific approach to better address the unique health, social and education needs of Inuit children.There are also new investments to address urgent health and wellness needs to reduce suicide rates in Inuit communities. In order to deal with the ongoing suicide crisis in the Inuit communities, $5 million has been set aside to support the national Inuit suicide prevention strategy.The government is also making unprecedented new investments in indigenous post-secondary education, including 2019's proposal for $327.5 million over five years to renew and expand funding for the post-secondary student support program while the government engages with first nations on the development of integrated regional education strategies. There is $125.5 million over 10 years, and $21.8 million ongoing to support an Inuit-led post-secondary strategy, and $362 million over 10 years, and $40 million ongoing to support a Métis Nation strategy.Starting this fiscal year, a new transfer to first nations communities, entitled “Grant to support the new fiscal relationship for First Nations under the lndian Act”, more commonly known as the 10-year grant, has been implemented. More than 250 first nations expressed interest in the 10-year grant; 103 first nations were determined to be eligible based on criteria that we co-developed with first nations partners. They have received an offer, and I am happy to say that 83 first nations have now signed 10-year grant agreements.The new grant, representing $1.5 billion, is funded through the existing programs of Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, which are primarily related to education, social development, infrastructure, and first nations and Inuit health programs. To ensure that the 10-year grants grow with the needs of first nations, budget 2019 proposes that starting April 1, 2020, funding for core programs and services provided through the 10-year grants will be escalated to address key cost drivers, including inflation and population growth. The 10-year grant provides communities with the flexibility and predictability needed to support effective and independent long-term planning. This initiative is a key part for establishing a new fiscal relationship that moves towards sufficient, predictable and sustained funding for first nations communities. Last, I think it's imperative for me to highlight the work of everyone involved in making progress on our commitment to end long-term drinking water advisories on public systems on reserve by March, 2021. Since 2015, a total of 85 long-term drinking water advisories have been lifted, and 126 short-term drinking water advisories were lifted before becoming long term. We are well on our way to meeting our commitment. This will be aided through the 2019-20 main estimates by an additional $66.7 million proposed by budget 2019, which has been dedicated to keeping us on track. I am extremely proud of this, as all Canadians should have access to safe, clean and reliable drinking water. We have made, and are continuing to make, important changes in the government's relationship with first nations, Inuit and Métis people. While there is still a lot of work to do, our government's historic investments are making a difference in closing the gaps that exist, and improving the quality of life for indigenous peoples. I'd now be happy to answer any questions that the committee may have.Thank you, Madam Chair. Aboriginal policyAccess to post-secondary educationC-92, An Act respecting First Nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and familiesChild first principleChildrenDepartment of Indigenous ServicesFamilies and childrenFirst NationsFirst Nations Child and Family Services ProgramGovernment transfer paymentsHealth and social servicesIndian ActInfrastructureInuitMain estimates 2019-2020National strategy for suicide preventionPrimary educationSecondary educationTuberculosis in humansWater supplySeamusO'ReganHon.St. John's South—Mount PearlMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0945)[Translation]Thank you, Madam Chair.Minister O'Regan, thank you for your presentation, especially the parts in French.In your presentation, for 2018-19, $29.4 million was provided to ensure that infrastructure investments reach local communities through the gas tax fund.Can you explain how this amount was used?Department of Indigenous ServicesGas Tax FundInfrastructureMain estimates 2019-2020MaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. PaulSeamusO'ReganHon.St. John's South—Mount Pearl//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88299SeamusO'ReganHon.Seamus-O-ReganSt. John's South—Mount PearlLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OReganSeamus_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Seamus O'Regan: (0945)[English] You're going to have to forgive me, because I didn't get my translator on in time, and we've all borne witness to my attempts at French; my listening is not much better. I didn't catch all of it, but I think my deputy has it handy, so I'll let him speak.YvesRobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinJean-FrançoisTremblay//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0945)[Translation]Okay.Yesterday, the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls released its report after over two years of work.Could you share your opinion on the content and conclusions of the report?Department of Indigenous ServicesMain estimates 2019-2020National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and GirlsJean-FrançoisTremblaySeamusO'ReganHon.St. John's South—Mount Pearl//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88299SeamusO'ReganHon.Seamus-O-ReganSt. John's South—Mount PearlLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OReganSeamus_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Seamus O'Regan: (0945)[Translation]Thank you, Mr. Robillard.[English]I think most of the people on this committee, if not all of you—it was a big crowd—were in that room. It was a heavy day. We're committed to ending the ongoing national tragedy of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and 2SLGBTQQIA people. To end this national tragedy, we asked the commission to identify and examine the systemic causes of violence against indigenous women and girls. They have.I think we all owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to all the survivors and family members who shared their stories, because that is not easy, and some of them put their own health at risk in doing so, having to relive a lot of moments that many of them have buried. For that reason, as the Prime Minister noted in his speech, many chose not to speak. We honour them for that choice as well.This is truly quite extraordinary; it hit me yesterday. This is a national inquiry, the first of its kind, and I was quite taken by the number of provincial governments that were represented and that accepted copies of the report. We have a lot of work to do. We are committed to a national action plan, as you heard the Prime Minister say yesterday, and that's called for by the inquiry to implement the recommendations to make sure they're distinctions-based; that they're flexible. As have all our efforts thus far, we know they must be developed in partnership with first nations, Inuit and Métis governments and organizations, the families of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, and the survivors.Department of Indigenous ServicesMain estimates 2019-2020National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and GirlsYvesRobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinYvesRobillardMarc-Aurèle-Fortin//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0945)[Translation]Thank you.Can you share what the families told you about the significance of this inquiry and the opportunity it gave them to tell their stories?Department of Indigenous ServicesFamilies and childrenMain estimates 2019-2020National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and GirlsSeamusO'ReganHon.St. John's South—Mount PearlSeamusO'ReganHon.St. John's South—Mount Pearl//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88299SeamusO'ReganHon.Seamus-O-ReganSt. John's South—Mount PearlLiberal CaucusNewfoundland and Labrador//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/OReganSeamus_Lib.jpgInterventionHon. Seamus O'Regan: (0945)[English]As a formal part of the inquiry, I did not receive those testimonies, but I've received many testimonies in my travels from people who have been involved in very similar circumstances. They are deeply aggrieved; they feel deeply wronged. They feel the loss of a loved one. We have to get through this report meticulously, and we have to work quickly. We all understand that we only have so much time left in this session.Some things we've worked on that are very much in keeping with the report, which, again, passed third reading last night and is an extraordinary piece of legislation because it was developed in partnership with indigenous peoples, I think will go a long way in the area of child and family services to finding solutions that indigenous people will develop themselves.Department of Indigenous ServicesFamilies and childrenMain estimates 2019-2020National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and GirlsYvesRobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. Paul//www.ourcommons.ca/Parliamentarians/en/members/88617YvesRobillardYves-RobillardMarc-Aurèle-FortinLiberal CaucusQuebec//www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/RobillardYves_Lib.jpgInterventionMr. Yves Robillard: (0950)[Translation]Thank you.MaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. PaulMaryAnnMihychukHon.Kildonan—St. PaulINTERVENTIONParliament and SessionDiscussed TopicProcedural TermCommitteePerson SpeakingProvince / TerritoryCaucusParticipation TypeSearchResults per pageOrder byTarget search languageSide by SideMaximum returned rowsPagePUBLICATION TYPE